PodSearch

ATP

384: Equal Emphasis

 

00:00:00 ◼   ► I went a little freaked out because our server was just

00:00:04 ◼   ► massively hammered with a huge load spike, eight minutes ago,

00:00:08 ◼   ► and the load average went up to like 150, and I couldn't

00:00:11 ◼   ► figure out, looking at all the logs, like what the hell's

00:00:13 ◼   ► going on, why is this all of a sudden very heavily loaded,

00:00:16 ◼   ► no clue why.

00:00:17 ◼   ► Now, we still have all of our listeners on the livestream,

00:00:21 ◼   ► we have over 1100 listeners on the livestream, and the load

00:00:24 ◼   ► is 0.5.

00:00:26 ◼   ► And I'm a little scared that I don't know why.

00:00:30 ◼   ► - Is that something updating the location database?

00:00:33 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:00:35 ◼   ► Is it like the Linux equivalent of photo analysis thing?

00:00:39 ◼   ► (beeping)

00:00:41 ◼   ► I don't know about you two, but I feel overwhelmed

00:00:43 ◼   ► with the amount of content.

00:00:44 ◼   ► I know we've just seen at this point the keynote

00:00:46 ◼   ► and the State of the Union, and that's all,

00:00:48 ◼   ► but it seemed like there was more.

00:00:50 ◼   ► Now obviously this is a big year, there's a lot of big

00:00:52 ◼   ► important announcements, but it just seemed like,

00:00:54 ◼   ► even setting aside how important and momentous certain

00:00:56 ◼   ► announcements were, there was just more content.

00:00:58 ◼   ► And I have to think it's because the stuff was prerecorded.

00:01:02 ◼   ► When you do things live, there is a certain amount of slack

00:01:05 ◼   ► in terms of, I don't know, walking around the stage,

00:01:08 ◼   ► gathering yourself for the next sentence you're going to say,

00:01:10 ◼   ► certainly the transition between presenters walking off

00:01:13 ◼   ► the stage and a new person walking on, that takes longer

00:01:16 ◼   ► than a cut, any kind of live demo has way more slack in it

00:01:20 ◼   ► than a prerecorded thing where everything is perfect

00:01:22 ◼   ► down to the second, and I think even though the keynote

00:01:26 ◼   ► was not particularly long, it was like an hour and 50

00:01:28 ◼   ► minutes or something, they packed a lot of stuff in.

00:01:30 ◼   ► I feel overwhelmed with the amount of good, cool, new stuff,

00:01:35 ◼   ► and I hope we manage to talk about it all.

00:01:37 ◼   ► If we miss your favorite thing, don't worry,

00:01:39 ◼   ► we'll keep talking about the WWDC if history has been

00:01:42 ◼   ► a guide for the next several weeks.

00:01:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, 'cause usually in the summer there's not a whole

00:01:45 ◼   ► lot of news, especially as you get into July and August,

00:01:48 ◼   ► there's not a whole lot of news, so we will have plenty

00:01:50 ◼   ► of time to cover whatever we don't know,

00:01:51 ◼   ► whatever we don't have time for this week.

00:01:53 ◼   ► Although we do have more time than usual 'cause we're not

00:01:55 ◼   ► live for the first time in, what, three or four years?

00:01:58 ◼   ► - Yeah, I know, Jon, you're extremely relieved to be doing

00:01:59 ◼   ► this at home, but I think I speak for Marco in saying

00:02:02 ◼   ► that I'm pretty sad that we're not in front of all

00:02:05 ◼   ► of our friends, well, not all of our friends,

00:02:07 ◼   ► but many of our friends in San Jose or San Francisco

00:02:09 ◼   ► or what have you, but I'm glad that 1,200-ish of you

00:02:12 ◼   ► are joining us right now and hopefully many, many more

00:02:14 ◼   ► once this is released.

00:02:16 ◼   ► I gotta say, as quick overall impressions,

00:02:19 ◼   ► whoo, that was a lot.

00:02:20 ◼   ► It was a lot and it was fast.

00:02:22 ◼   ► You know, it's funny, I was one of the first to lament

00:02:26 ◼   ► the really lame demos and to complain about how the,

00:02:31 ◼   ► I don't wanna see, what was it, it was an anchor,

00:02:34 ◼   ► Anki, the caller, whatever it was, yeah.

00:02:38 ◼   ► But they gave us a chance to breathe,

00:02:40 ◼   ► and without those demos, this was fast.

00:02:42 ◼   ► I was trying to take notes as I was listening

00:02:45 ◼   ► and trying to keep up with Twitter and different slacks,

00:02:49 ◼   ► and it was just so much, so, so fast,

00:02:53 ◼   ► which ultimately is very, very good.

00:02:55 ◼   ► And obviously there's a lot to cover.

00:02:58 ◼   ► I don't feel like I've properly processed any of it.

00:03:00 ◼   ► I feel like I've processed less of it than when I'm there,

00:03:04 ◼   ► perhaps because all I do is talk about it all day long

00:03:06 ◼   ► with everyone I can see, and what with me being at the beach

00:03:09 ◼   ► with my family, I didn't talk about it all day long.

00:03:11 ◼   ► I just watched the keynote, watched the State of the Union

00:03:12 ◼   ► and otherwise ignored it.

00:03:14 ◼   ► But I don't know, I feel like my head is swimming,

00:03:17 ◼   ► and I don't know what to make of it one way or the other.

00:03:19 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's interesting, the format was so different

00:03:22 ◼   ► this year, forced by COVID-19 and everything.

00:03:24 ◼   ► And by the way, I really respect the intro by Tim Cook,

00:03:28 ◼   ► the kind of, where he sat down on the little stool

00:03:30 ◼   ► behind the empty auditorium and talked to the nation

00:03:34 ◼   ► about what was going on.

00:03:35 ◼   ► It was really well done, it was very tasteful,

00:03:38 ◼   ► and I think Tim did a really good job of handling,

00:03:40 ◼   ► this is a tricky time, this is tumultuous in a lot of ways.

00:03:43 ◼   ► And so that was handled well, I thought.

00:03:46 ◼   ► And then as for the format of the presentation itself,

00:03:49 ◼   ► being this kind of, I think pretty clearly pre-recorded,

00:03:53 ◼   ► presentation is almost the wrong word for it, I guess?

00:03:59 ◼   ► It was basically a pre-recorded video introduction.

00:04:02 ◼   ► It felt in some ways like a combination between

00:04:06 ◼   ► a cool demo and a more fun version

00:04:10 ◼   ► of a corporate training video, almost.

00:04:14 ◼   ► I don't mean that in a bad way, I know that

00:04:16 ◼   ► can be interpreted badly, I don't mean that in a bad way.

00:04:18 ◼   ► It seemed very produced, but if you look back

00:04:22 ◼   ► at recent years of Apple presentations,

00:04:27 ◼   ► we've said in almost every presentation that over time,

00:04:31 ◼   ► it has felt a little bit more artificial

00:04:34 ◼   ► and a little bit higher budget than what they appear

00:04:37 ◼   ► to be letting on with the artifice of it.

00:04:41 ◼   ► I don't know, it's hard to explain, but the presentations

00:04:44 ◼   ► that have been in person, in auditoriums so far,

00:04:47 ◼   ► for the last few years have been increasingly

00:04:50 ◼   ► corporate feeling, and they've had more and more

00:04:52 ◼   ► pre-produced video segments that they keep cutting to

00:04:55 ◼   ► and everything, and so it has felt more,

00:04:58 ◼   ► almost like a commercial.

00:04:59 ◼   ► And I think this format change that they were forced

00:05:03 ◼   ► to make this year is actually a positive thing

00:05:06 ◼   ► in the sense that it actually kind of fully admits

00:05:10 ◼   ► and embraces what it has been inching towards all along,

00:05:13 ◼   ► which is pre-produced, very high budget,

00:05:16 ◼   ► very high production value commercials, basically,

00:05:19 ◼   ► but done in a slightly more down-to-earth way.

00:05:22 ◼   ► And I think that better reflects the size

00:05:26 ◼   ► of the company today, it better reflects the importance,

00:05:29 ◼   ► the financial importance and the size of the community

00:05:33 ◼   ► and everything, it kind of better reflects

00:05:35 ◼   ► what the company is today, rather than trying to

00:05:39 ◼   ► keep this train going of this old presentation style

00:05:43 ◼   ► that Steve Jobs used to do, back when the world

00:05:46 ◼   ► was very different, the company was a lot smaller,

00:05:49 ◼   ► he was obviously still alive and still doing them.

00:05:52 ◼   ► And until today, Apple was still trying to replicate that,

00:05:56 ◼   ► and it was losing steam, like the old format,

00:05:58 ◼   ► I feel like, was losing steam over the last couple years,

00:06:01 ◼   ► and was starting to feel really stale.

00:06:02 ◼   ► And so there are parts of that that I miss

00:06:05 ◼   ► with this new format, and they might go back to it.

00:06:08 ◼   ► Once the virus is under control and they can have

00:06:11 ◼   ► large gatherings, maybe they'll go back to the old format,

00:06:13 ◼   ► I don't know, but I feel like this new format

00:06:15 ◼   ► is a more honest and accurate representation

00:06:19 ◼   ► of what they actually are today, as opposed to trying

00:06:23 ◼   ► to continue on the way it used to be of like,

00:06:26 ◼   ► hey, we're still the same old company,

00:06:28 ◼   ► run by these fun hippies, hey, everyone's cool.

00:06:31 ◼   ► 'Cause that wasn't really accurate anymore.

00:06:34 ◼   ► - I don't know if I see that distinction

00:06:35 ◼   ► you're pointing out, I mean, I understand what you're saying

00:06:37 ◼   ► and I know why this format couldn't have as much

00:06:39 ◼   ► of the spontaneity, 'cause it's not live, right?

00:06:41 ◼   ► But I don't see that big of a difference,

00:06:44 ◼   ► other than it being tightened up and all the ad libs

00:06:47 ◼   ► being removed, obviously it feels less friendly

00:06:51 ◼   ► and personable than having it live, but there are good

00:06:55 ◼   ► presentations and bad ones when they're live,

00:06:57 ◼   ► and I think there's nothing wrong with the format,

00:07:00 ◼   ► I think just sometimes the chemistry doesn't combine.

00:07:04 ◼   ► What you really need for a good live keynote

00:07:05 ◼   ► is the same thing you need for any good you need.

00:07:08 ◼   ► People who are excited about the things

00:07:10 ◼   ► that are announcing, the things that are announcing

00:07:11 ◼   ► have to be really good, and to the degree that they're not

00:07:14 ◼   ► and the presenters are feigning excessive enthusiasm,

00:07:17 ◼   ► that can make it feel a little bit off,

00:07:18 ◼   ► but this time around, setting aside the weird format

00:07:22 ◼   ► of people filmed individually and then sliced together

00:07:24 ◼   ► for obvious reasons, they had a lot of good announcements.

00:07:28 ◼   ► But I feel like this format necessarily tamped down

00:07:31 ◼   ► on some of the enjoyment that we normally get,

00:07:33 ◼   ► like even Federighi only got in one dad joke

00:07:37 ◼   ► about the social distancing about the birds, right?

00:07:39 ◼   ► He usually has nine of those, and they work well,

00:07:42 ◼   ► and I think his personality comes through,

00:07:45 ◼   ► to the degree that any presenters are allowed

00:07:47 ◼   ► to have their personality come through,

00:07:50 ◼   ► whether it's in their attitude or their cadence

00:07:53 ◼   ► or the jokes that they manage to get into the presentations,

00:07:56 ◼   ► I don't know what the filtering mechanism is

00:07:59 ◼   ► for those jokes, do they decide, does someone else decide,

00:08:01 ◼   ► like I enjoy all of that, and I think where I agree

00:08:04 ◼   ► with Marco is that I think this year's,

00:08:06 ◼   ► I think they did a really good job with this year's format,

00:08:08 ◼   ► given the constraints.

00:08:10 ◼   ► It didn't feel weird and awkward, like we all know

00:08:14 ◼   ► that they had to be filmed ahead of time,

00:08:15 ◼   ► we all know they were all filmed separately,

00:08:17 ◼   ► and if that wasn't clear, they explained it

00:08:19 ◼   ► in the little thing at the end that explains

00:08:21 ◼   ► all the precautions they took during filming.

00:08:23 ◼   ► But each one of the segments felt like that person

00:08:25 ◼   ► could have been on stage, modified for the obvious fact

00:08:28 ◼   ► that there's not going to be any applause, pauses,

00:08:30 ◼   ► and they're not going to make any stumbles,

00:08:32 ◼   ► and all the demos are going to be perfect,

00:08:34 ◼   ► because if they're not, they just do them over again, right?

00:08:36 ◼   ► So if anything, I think this format pulls,

00:08:39 ◼   ► I mean, like you said, this pulls a little bit

00:08:41 ◼   ► of the humanity out of it, but I don't think

00:08:43 ◼   ► that's necessary, like I think you can just leave

00:08:46 ◼   ► different takes in and leave a little bit of slack

00:08:49 ◼   ► and let Craig make a few more dad jokes,

00:08:51 ◼   ► and we're back to the best they've ever been.

00:08:54 ◼   ► - It was actually very nice to not have

00:08:56 ◼   ► any third-party demos on stage,

00:08:59 ◼   ► 'cause those always drag so much,

00:09:02 ◼   ► and it seems like no one in the room wants those,

00:09:05 ◼   ► except Apple apparently, like they would go over

00:09:09 ◼   ► like a lead balloon, nobody actually wants them.

00:09:11 ◼   ► - But they did them, they had demos of third-party apps,

00:09:14 ◼   ► just not done by third parties, they showed Office briefly,

00:09:17 ◼   ► they showed Lightroom, they showed Photoshop,

00:09:19 ◼   ► like that's how Apple I think always wishes those demos go,

00:09:22 ◼   ► but once you invite an executive from another company,

00:09:24 ◼   ► you kind of have to let them talk a little bit

00:09:26 ◼   ► about something or other, and that's death.

00:09:28 ◼   ► - Yeah, so like this new format that didn't have any demos,

00:09:32 ◼   ► I mean I don't know, assuming they continue this format

00:09:34 ◼   ► for a little while, 'cause the virus isn't going anywhere

00:09:36 ◼   ► anytime soon unfortunately, so that I'm sure

00:09:38 ◼   ► whatever fall or winter releases they do,

00:09:41 ◼   ► whatever events they do, I would say probably at least

00:09:44 ◼   ► until next spring, is most likely gonna follow

00:09:46 ◼   ► a similar format as this, and so when products get released,

00:09:50 ◼   ► when they usually have like game demos and stuff,

00:09:52 ◼   ► like hey, look at the new iPhone or iPad,

00:09:54 ◼   ► how fast it can run these games,

00:09:56 ◼   ► I hope they consider not having the third party demos,

00:10:00 ◼   ► 'cause this works so much better without them.

00:10:02 ◼   ► - All right, so we got a lot to go through,

00:10:03 ◼   ► we should probably start, and we're gonna attempt,

00:10:05 ◼   ► as I say every year, we're going to attempt

00:10:07 ◼   ► to do it chronologically, and then we're going

00:10:08 ◼   ► to fail miserably, and it started pretty much

00:10:12 ◼   ► with iOS 14 and widgets, which I think the most interesting

00:10:16 ◼   ► bombshell from that whole conversation,

00:10:19 ◼   ► I don't think it even happened during the keynote,

00:10:21 ◼   ► but rather during the State of the Union,

00:10:23 ◼   ► where they said widgets are going to be SwiftUI only,

00:10:25 ◼   ► which in retrospect I'm not terribly surprised by,

00:10:29 ◼   ► but I certainly did not expect whatsoever,

00:10:32 ◼   ► and it makes sense, it seems to be,

00:10:34 ◼   ► because they can serialize and save off

00:10:36 ◼   ► the state of the widget, and then just kind of replay it

00:10:39 ◼   ► later and so on and so forth, but I was very surprised

00:10:42 ◼   ► to see that, that being said, the widgets looked pretty good

00:10:46 ◼   ► and you can put them on the home screen,

00:10:48 ◼   ► you can do, what do they call them,

00:10:49 ◼   ► like IntelliSmart widgets or something like that,

00:10:51 ◼   ► or Smart Shelf, I forget what it was called,

00:10:53 ◼   ► where you stack, Smart Stack, you stack a few of them

00:10:56 ◼   ► on top of each other, and then the OS and the device

00:10:59 ◼   ► will just do, show the one it thinks is most relevant

00:11:02 ◼   ► based on how important each individual widget thinks it is

00:11:05 ◼   ► at that particular moment.

00:11:06 ◼   ► I don't know, all this looked really, really good.

00:11:08 ◼   ► I don't know, there's nothing I can think of

00:11:11 ◼   ► that I'm like, yes, finally I can have this

00:11:13 ◼   ► on my home screen, but I do think that this is one

00:11:15 ◼   ► of the lowest hanging fruits that they could have picked,

00:11:19 ◼   ► not from an engineering effort perspective,

00:11:21 ◼   ► but from a, come on guys, you really haven't done

00:11:23 ◼   ► anything in Springboard in, what, 10 years?

00:11:25 ◼   ► Can we do something?

00:11:26 ◼   ► And they did something, and it looks good.

00:11:29 ◼   ► - Yeah, this has been a requested feature

00:11:30 ◼   ► for years and years, 'cause the grid of icons

00:11:32 ◼   ► was a great thing to start with,

00:11:33 ◼   ► but if you had told someone in 2007

00:11:35 ◼   ► that we'd still have the grid of icons in 2020,

00:11:37 ◼   ► you'd be like, really, nothing different?

00:11:39 ◼   ► It's like, well, folders, but really?

00:11:41 ◼   ► The folders just look like the little, you know,

00:11:43 ◼   ► widgets on the home screen, you know,

00:11:46 ◼   ► pioneered by Android, used by lots of phones

00:11:49 ◼   ► in various ways, basically just can I have something more

00:11:51 ◼   ► on my screen instead of just a grid of apps

00:11:52 ◼   ► or a grid of folders, and finally, you can do that.

00:11:55 ◼   ► Like, they kept creeping up on it, putting these widgets

00:11:57 ◼   ► in the little thing that's to the left, right?

00:12:00 ◼   ► But now that you, and the widgets are still there,

00:12:02 ◼   ► but now you can put them on your home screen,

00:12:03 ◼   ► and you can have them take up the same amount of room

00:12:05 ◼   ► as four apps, the same amount of room as, what, eight apps?

00:12:08 ◼   ► So they're either squares or they're big rectangles,

00:12:10 ◼   ► maybe they can be even taller.

00:12:12 ◼   ► Yeah, actually, you can do a grid,

00:12:13 ◼   ► a four by four grid of 16 apps, I think.

00:12:15 ◼   ► Anyway.

00:12:16 ◼   ► - Hexagons coming next year, so you can tessellate them.

00:12:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, no, that'll be just like the watch,

00:12:20 ◼   ► just this giant scrolling cluster of frog eggs.

00:12:25 ◼   ► Anyway.

00:12:25 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:12:28 ◼   ► But yeah, this is long overdue, and it will,

00:12:31 ◼   ► and it's the biggest change to Springboard in years, right?

00:12:36 ◼   ► I think even bigger than the folders.

00:12:37 ◼   ► This is gonna change how people's home screens look and work

00:12:40 ◼   ► because in those widgets, you can add functionality

00:12:43 ◼   ► that you don't have, would normally have to go

00:12:45 ◼   ► into an app to get.

00:12:48 ◼   ► I'm sure someone with more watchOS experience

00:12:50 ◼   ► like Underscore would know better,

00:12:52 ◼   ► but looking at the API for this, it looks a lot like

00:12:56 ◼   ► the UI for stuff on the watch where you give a timeline

00:13:01 ◼   ► of information if it's the type of thing.

00:13:03 ◼   ► Am I thinking of the watch or am I misremembering, Marco?

00:13:05 ◼   ► - Yep, yep.

00:13:06 ◼   ► It's basically how complications work,

00:13:08 ◼   ► where you provide the timeline of what kind of data

00:13:11 ◼   ► should be displayed at what time in the future,

00:13:14 ◼   ► to a certain range in the future,

00:13:15 ◼   ► and then it automatically displays it,

00:13:17 ◼   ► and so you don't have to, and often can't,

00:13:20 ◼   ► manually update it constantly.

00:13:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, and your app isn't running all the time,

00:13:24 ◼   ► and it's basically an energy efficient way

00:13:26 ◼   ► to not have all these apps running all the time,

00:13:28 ◼   ► but still allow them to put content there.

00:13:29 ◼   ► Now obviously, that doesn't work for all things.

00:13:31 ◼   ► Like obviously, sometimes you don't know the future

00:13:33 ◼   ► and can't put out timeline to that far,

00:13:35 ◼   ► but anyway, it's a very flexible API

00:13:37 ◼   ► to try to be power efficient and CPU efficient

00:13:41 ◼   ► to not have apps constantly churning

00:13:43 ◼   ► while still giving much more information and functionality

00:13:47 ◼   ► directly on your home screen.

00:13:49 ◼   ► As part of this also, further home screen changes,

00:13:53 ◼   ► they added the app library, which is a better,

00:13:56 ◼   ► more or less a better way to organize your apps

00:13:58 ◼   ► without organizing them.

00:13:59 ◼   ► So the spatial interface that we've had for ages

00:14:01 ◼   ► where you arrange your home screen

00:14:02 ◼   ► and have these little icons,

00:14:03 ◼   ► Craig made a good point in the presentation,

00:14:05 ◼   ► it's like yeah, most people arrange their first screen

00:14:07 ◼   ► or maybe their first screen or two,

00:14:09 ◼   ► but after that, it's just chaos, right?

00:14:10 ◼   ► Unless you're really obsessive or you have very few apps,

00:14:13 ◼   ► by screen five, things are just a mess.

00:14:16 ◼   ► Now I would say that part of the reason that's true

00:14:19 ◼   ► is trying, as we've mentioned on the show many times,

00:14:21 ◼   ► trying to organize your home screens is a nightmare.

00:14:24 ◼   ► It's a UI nightmare.

00:14:25 ◼   ► See previous episode where I described the experience

00:14:29 ◼   ► in excruciating detail, but it's terrible.

00:14:32 ◼   ► It's a hot potato, there's no place to put things down,

00:14:34 ◼   ► you accidentally drop things, things scooch off the edge,

00:14:36 ◼   ► it's terrible.

00:14:37 ◼   ► You used to be able to arrange your home screen

00:14:38 ◼   ► in the iTunes interface,

00:14:39 ◼   ► even that wasn't a great interface.

00:14:41 ◼   ► I would kill for a Mac user interface

00:14:45 ◼   ► that lets you rearrange your home screen icons.

00:14:48 ◼   ► Just like a real Mac user interface

00:14:50 ◼   ► that's sort of non-destructive with save

00:14:52 ◼   ► with an area off to the side where you can just chuck things

00:14:55 ◼   ► to keep them in holding patterns

00:14:56 ◼   ► and with like multiple selection ranges

00:14:59 ◼   ► and like just, it's an app for rearranging squares,

00:15:02 ◼   ► literally, that's all it is,

00:15:03 ◼   ► but a decent app for rearranging squares

00:15:07 ◼   ► on a large screen with a mouse and keyboard,

00:15:10 ◼   ► God, I would kill for that.

00:15:11 ◼   ► If that existed, I think people's home screens

00:15:14 ◼   ► would be better organized past the first screen or two.

00:15:17 ◼   ► Widgets will kind of help with that,

00:15:18 ◼   ► but all it will do is let people have even cooler

00:15:22 ◼   ► first one or two or three screens,

00:15:23 ◼   ► but by screen five, it's still gonna be chaos.

00:15:26 ◼   ► So Apple's solution is, you know what,

00:15:27 ◼   ► you can just hide those screens.

00:15:29 ◼   ► You can just say, I don't wanna see in screens five,

00:15:31 ◼   ► six, and seven or whatever of my home screens,

00:15:33 ◼   ► just don't even put them in the little swipey thing.

00:15:36 ◼   ► How will you get to those apps?

00:15:37 ◼   ► Oh, the app library, what has them organized by recency

00:15:40 ◼   ► and by category and there's an alphabeticalist thing.

00:15:42 ◼   ► This is above and beyond the search

00:15:43 ◼   ► where you have to type stuff.

00:15:44 ◼   ► This is like an organized into bins or whatever.

00:15:47 ◼   ► I feel like this is a slight abdication

00:15:49 ◼   ► of Apple's responsibility to make it possible

00:15:51 ◼   ► for human beings to actually organize their app icons.

00:15:54 ◼   ► They're saying, you know what, give up

00:15:56 ◼   ► because we're never gonna make it easy,

00:15:58 ◼   ► so just hide those screens and it's like spatial organization

00:16:01 ◼   ► for screens one, two, and three, and then browser mode

00:16:05 ◼   ► and automatic categorization for the rest.

00:16:07 ◼   ► And maybe that works fine, maybe no one would ever

00:16:09 ◼   ► carefully arrange five screens, but honestly,

00:16:12 ◼   ► I find it frustrating to rearrange my screens one and two.

00:16:14 ◼   ► Often I look at them, I was recently,

00:16:16 ◼   ► speaking of the Hey app, which we're not today,

00:16:18 ◼   ► I was trying to find a place to put the Hey app

00:16:20 ◼   ► because I have an account and I'm in the free trial period

00:16:23 ◼   ► and I wanted to try it out and I didn't want it

00:16:24 ◼   ► to be buried 20 screens ago.

00:16:26 ◼   ► So it's like, oh God, how do I find a place for that

00:16:28 ◼   ► in my screens one and two?

00:16:30 ◼   ► What thing do I move and what am I gonna accidentally

00:16:33 ◼   ► screw up when I move it?

00:16:34 ◼   ► That's just me rearranging the screens

00:16:35 ◼   ► that Craig says that people do arrange.

00:16:37 ◼   ► So I still think this is a problem, but all that aside,

00:16:40 ◼   ► I'm very glad at this, the biggest change to Springboard

00:16:45 ◼   ► in maybe ever, but certainly in the last several years.

00:16:48 ◼   ► So I endorse these changes, I just really do wish

00:16:52 ◼   ► there was an easier way to arrange your home screens.

00:16:54 ◼   ► - Yeah, I'm really curious to see what these widgets

00:16:57 ◼   ► look like for something like Overcast actually

00:17:00 ◼   ► to put Marco on the spot, because my understanding is

00:17:02 ◼   ► there's no way to interact with these widgets.

00:17:05 ◼   ► And presumably in the case of Overcast,

00:17:07 ◼   ► you could just use like a now playing widget

00:17:09 ◼   ► that's like a system level thing.

00:17:11 ◼   ► But let's just for the sake of discussion,

00:17:13 ◼   ► say that that didn't exist.

00:17:14 ◼   ► I don't think Marco, there's any way for you to put

00:17:16 ◼   ► like a play, pause, rewind, fast forward or anything

00:17:18 ◼   ► like that in a widget, which could be extremely useful.

00:17:20 ◼   ► I guess the next best thing you could do is put a list

00:17:23 ◼   ► of podcasts to kind of hop into and play or no,

00:17:25 ◼   ► but I guess that's still interactive too.

00:17:28 ◼   ► That kind of bums me out that there's no interactivity.

00:17:30 ◼   ► It totally makes sense from an engineering perspective,

00:17:32 ◼   ► but from a user perspective, I'd like to be able

00:17:35 ◼   ► to lightly interact with some things.

00:17:37 ◼   ► And I think I'd seen James Thompson say something

00:17:39 ◼   ► about how the pcalc calculator widget wouldn't be possible

00:17:43 ◼   ► for this exact same reason.

00:17:44 ◼   ► And that's, it's fine, but it's a little bit of a bummer.

00:17:46 ◼   ► But on the grand scheme of things,

00:17:48 ◼   ► I'm still really into this widget stuff.

00:17:50 ◼   ► I think the app catalog, whatever app library thing

00:17:52 ◼   ► sounds good too, because as Craig put it,

00:17:55 ◼   ► jiggle mode is a little bit challenging to say the least,

00:17:58 ◼   ► just like you were saying, Jon.

00:17:59 ◼   ► So all in all, the new springboard stuff looks real good.

00:18:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think it's useful, as we alluded to earlier,

00:18:06 ◼   ► it's useful to think of the new widgets

00:18:07 ◼   ► more like watch complications than like miniature

00:18:11 ◼   ► app interfaces, because they are, I mean,

00:18:14 ◼   ► and again, this could change as we learn more about them

00:18:17 ◼   ► and as we get time to play with them as developers

00:18:19 ◼   ► and maybe changes happen over the summer.

00:18:20 ◼   ► But it sure seems actually in many ways less functional

00:18:24 ◼   ► than the previous widgets have been.

00:18:26 ◼   ► And by the way, Overcast has a widget that no one uses it

00:18:30 ◼   ► because it's not very useful, but I have a widget.

00:18:33 ◼   ► It has a play/pause button.

00:18:34 ◼   ► Getting that to work was a crazy hack,

00:18:37 ◼   ► but it has a play/pause button and it does show

00:18:39 ◼   ► like the next two or three upcoming podcasts

00:18:42 ◼   ► and a play/pause button and that's it.

00:18:44 ◼   ► But almost no one uses it because it's kind of awkward

00:18:46 ◼   ► to use widgets in the previous versions of iOS.

00:18:50 ◼   ► So I think, I honestly can't think of a good reason

00:18:53 ◼   ► to have one in this new system for Overcast.

00:18:55 ◼   ► I don't think it makes sense unless I would,

00:18:57 ◼   ► again, like I could show the next upcoming podcast,

00:18:59 ◼   ► but if I can't tell which one you tapped on,

00:19:00 ◼   ► if you tap on it, then that's not of much use.

00:19:03 ◼   ► So I'm probably just not gonna have a widget

00:19:06 ◼   ► in the new system, but I'm looking forward

00:19:08 ◼   ► to what other types of apps are able to do with them.

00:19:11 ◼   ► I've never been a heavy widget user,

00:19:13 ◼   ► but I would love to do things like have a weather widget

00:19:15 ◼   ► showing on my home screen.

00:19:16 ◼   ► Like there are certain things like weather

00:19:17 ◼   ► that I just always want to be displayed.

00:19:19 ◼   ► Maybe, you know, like there were some of the examples

00:19:21 ◼   ► they were showing, like showing your upcoming calendar

00:19:23 ◼   ► events, that's stuff I would actually use.

00:19:26 ◼   ► And so I'm looking forward to just having a new fun thing

00:19:31 ◼   ► to play with, and yes, Android people, I know,

00:19:34 ◼   ► you did it first, Opera did it first, et cetera, I know,

00:19:37 ◼   ► but this is new to us, so we're gonna be super excited.

00:19:40 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:19:41 ◼   ► And this is actually not the first Android thing

00:19:44 ◼   ► that is now gonna be new to us,

00:19:45 ◼   ► that we'll get to more in a little while.

00:19:46 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think that because these widgets are, you know,

00:19:49 ◼   ► seem like they're not particularly interactive right now,

00:19:52 ◼   ► it doesn't mean they'll stay that way.

00:19:53 ◼   ► Like when they were in the sort of today view,

00:19:55 ◼   ► it kind of made sense that they wouldn't be

00:19:57 ◼   ► constantly interactive, 'cause you don't even see 'em

00:19:58 ◼   ► half the time, they only sort of load on demand.

00:20:00 ◼   ► But if it's gonna be on your home screen all the time,

00:20:02 ◼   ► obviously Apple doesn't want you churning away

00:20:04 ◼   ► and burning CPU, so they're very conservative

00:20:06 ◼   ► with the first implementation, but it wouldn't surprise me

00:20:08 ◼   ► with a few years from now that you can finally get

00:20:11 ◼   ► essentially a now playing screen on the home screen

00:20:14 ◼   ► with active play/pause, fast forward, rewind controls,

00:20:17 ◼   ► and you know, like a tiny miniature interface

00:20:19 ◼   ► to overcast in the home screen.

00:20:20 ◼   ► Does not seem unreasonable for me,

00:20:22 ◼   ► because it would only be running when the screen

00:20:24 ◼   ► is turned on, and when the screen is turned on

00:20:26 ◼   ► and they're on their home screen,

00:20:28 ◼   ► it's not any different than if the screen is turned on

00:20:31 ◼   ► and they happen to be in overcast.

00:20:32 ◼   ► It's the same amount of CPU usage, you know,

00:20:34 ◼   ► if you're like playing audio or something like that.

00:20:35 ◼   ► And speaking of that, to show that they're not afraid

00:20:38 ◼   ► of having things running on top of the home screen

00:20:40 ◼   ► in other places, picture in picture, which you know,

00:20:42 ◼   ► is from the iPad now available on the phone.

00:20:44 ◼   ► So if you're watching some video and you wanna go

00:20:46 ◼   ► someplace else, you can still see the video

00:20:48 ◼   ► in a little floaty window, just like you can on the iPad.

00:20:51 ◼   ► And if they're okay with a bunch of video showing,

00:20:53 ◼   ► I think it should be okay with play, pause,

00:20:56 ◼   ► fast-forward and rewind buttons in a widget.

00:20:58 ◼   ► Neither one is gonna kill your CPU exactly.

00:21:01 ◼   ► So it's nice to see that coming over.

00:21:03 ◼   ► That's sort of like something they had already implemented,

00:21:05 ◼   ► but you know, didn't have on the phone,

00:21:07 ◼   ► because like, oh, the phone is so small.

00:21:08 ◼   ► Would people want that?

00:21:09 ◼   ► Answer, yes, everybody wants that on their phone.

00:21:11 ◼   ► Plus phones are pretty big these days.

00:21:13 ◼   ► - You know, one small thing about the widgets

00:21:14 ◼   ► that I can't let go of apparently,

00:21:16 ◼   ► I think the old API is probably deprecated, right?

00:21:19 ◼   ► And that's also a little bit of a bummer.

00:21:21 ◼   ► Like on my iPad and in Notification Center on my iPhone,

00:21:26 ◼   ► I like using this app, Vidgets, V-I-D-G-E-T-S.

00:21:29 ◼   ► And what that does is it's like an iStat menus

00:21:31 ◼   ► for your phone or your iPad.

00:21:32 ◼   ► And on the iPad, I actually have it on my home screen.

00:21:34 ◼   ► And it's in for someone like me

00:21:36 ◼   ► who has no empathy for the machine, sorry, John.

00:21:38 ◼   ► It actually is very convenient to know

00:21:40 ◼   ► like if I'm actively downloading something

00:21:41 ◼   ► and is it actually going quickly?

00:21:44 ◼   ► And that's not gonna be possible anymore

00:21:46 ◼   ► because that refreshes itself like once a second.

00:21:49 ◼   ► And for all the reasons that you just cited,

00:21:51 ◼   ► you know, it's too computationally expensive,

00:21:52 ◼   ► too energy expensive.

00:21:53 ◼   ► That's not gonna be possible anymore.

00:21:54 ◼   ► And that's too bad.

00:21:55 ◼   ► That being said, I understand why

00:21:58 ◼   ► from an engineering perspective,

00:21:59 ◼   ► and it makes perfect sense.

00:22:01 ◼   ► And I do think that there are probably gonna be

00:22:04 ◼   ► some cool new widgets with new functionality.

00:22:06 ◼   ► And I'm really anxious to see or excited to see

00:22:09 ◼   ► how the auto ordering works on those stacks.

00:22:12 ◼   ► But I should stop belaboring this widget thing.

00:22:14 ◼   ► We should probably keep moving along.

00:22:16 ◼   ► What was the next thing that they talked about?

00:22:20 ◼   ► Translate, actually.

00:22:21 ◼   ► - Yeah, the compact UI for Siri and calls.

00:22:24 ◼   ► Also, the call one has been,

00:22:26 ◼   ► people wanted that since multitasking was introduced.

00:22:29 ◼   ► It's like when a call comes in,

00:22:31 ◼   ► why does it take over my whole screen?

00:22:33 ◼   ► Everything else that happens,

00:22:35 ◼   ► you can have a banner or you can have an alert.

00:22:36 ◼   ► You know, like the modern notification system on iOS

00:22:39 ◼   ► has existed for a long time.

00:22:40 ◼   ► And calls have just said, no, we are something special

00:22:44 ◼   ► because I'm not sure if you know this,

00:22:45 ◼   ► but what you're actually holding

00:22:46 ◼   ► is something we call a phone.

00:22:48 ◼   ► And when you get a call, since I'm a phone,

00:22:50 ◼   ► it's the most important thing that I do.

00:22:52 ◼   ► So I'm gonna black out the whole screen

00:22:54 ◼   ► and nobody likes that.

00:22:55 ◼   ► And other modern smartphones don't do that.

00:22:57 ◼   ► And now the iPhone won't either.

00:22:59 ◼   ► It actually shows as a notification.

00:23:01 ◼   ► Imagine that.

00:23:02 ◼   ► And same thing for Siri.

00:23:04 ◼   ► You can now activate Siri and do things with it

00:23:06 ◼   ► without it blanking over the whole screen.

00:23:08 ◼   ► That may or may not actually make Siri any better.

00:23:12 ◼   ► There's a separate section on Siri supposedly being better.

00:23:15 ◼   ► But yay for catching up with modern practices

00:23:18 ◼   ► in terms of notification UI.

00:23:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, I'm so happy to see this.

00:23:23 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:23:24 ◼   ► - As with many nerds who have been complaining

00:23:25 ◼   ► about this for years, phone calls today are,

00:23:29 ◼   ► there are some special considerations for a call.

00:23:33 ◼   ► Unlike many other notifications that we get,

00:23:34 ◼   ► it is a synchronous thing.

00:23:36 ◼   ► This call is happening right now.

00:23:37 ◼   ► You need to answer it right now.

00:23:38 ◼   ► You can't just wait until later and go.

00:23:40 ◼   ► So there is some degree of special treatment that they need.

00:23:43 ◼   ► And I'm sure there's probably some regulations too

00:23:45 ◼   ► about how calls have to behave on certain phones

00:23:47 ◼   ► in certain countries just from legacy or emergency reasons.

00:23:51 ◼   ► But for the most part, this is a computer that you're using

00:23:55 ◼   ► and you don't want anything to be able to do

00:23:58 ◼   ► a full screen takeover that you didn't tell to happen.

00:24:01 ◼   ► And that's what calls have done until now.

00:24:04 ◼   ► And this also includes FaceTime calls

00:24:06 ◼   ► and anything else that uses the system VoIP API.

00:24:09 ◼   ► A full screen takeover on your computer

00:24:13 ◼   ► that is caused by someone else calling you

00:24:16 ◼   ► that you have no control over,

00:24:19 ◼   ► I mean, in many ways it has been and can be used

00:24:22 ◼   ► as like a DDoS attempt for someone's device.

00:24:24 ◼   ► But it does seem kind of ridiculous to think about

00:24:29 ◼   ► why that would be the case these days.

00:24:30 ◼   ► And so it is wonderful that Apple has finally

00:24:33 ◼   ► recognized that and made this change to be like,

00:24:35 ◼   ► all right, you know what, phone calls are now demoted

00:24:37 ◼   ► a little bit in the UI so that they don't

00:24:40 ◼   ► blackout the entire screen of your phone

00:24:43 ◼   ► whenever some idiot calls you.

00:24:44 ◼   ► We are sponsored this week by Basecamp,

00:24:48 ◼   ► the all-in-one toolkit for working remotely.

00:24:51 ◼   ► Basecamp is the original project management tool since 2004.

00:24:55 ◼   ► They started out as a web design firm

00:24:58 ◼   ► and they built Basecamp to handle talking

00:24:59 ◼   ► with their clients as easily as possible.

00:25:02 ◼   ► Basecamp has a killer client feature

00:25:03 ◼   ► unlike any other project management software.

00:25:06 ◼   ► And they knew what project managers needed

00:25:08 ◼   ► because they were project managers themselves.

00:25:10 ◼   ► So they built the perfect tool for modern work,

00:25:13 ◼   ► especially remote work.

00:25:15 ◼   ► Basecamp's entire company has always been remote

00:25:18 ◼   ► and their people are spread across the entire globe.

00:25:21 ◼   ► They literally wrote the book on remote working

00:25:23 ◼   ► back in 2013.

00:25:25 ◼   ► So Basecamp is the perfect set of tools

00:25:27 ◼   ► to collaborate remotely without distractions.

00:25:30 ◼   ► Now, if you're looking to monitor every move

00:25:32 ◼   ► your employees make, Basecamp is not for you.

00:25:35 ◼   ► That's not the kind of product they make.

00:25:37 ◼   ► Basecamp is for smart managers who respect their employees.

00:25:41 ◼   ► And they are, as we've seen recently,

00:25:43 ◼   ► they are a very principled company

00:25:44 ◼   ► with pretty nice principles.

00:25:46 ◼   ► So you can get started with Basecamp in minutes

00:25:48 ◼   ► without any training.

00:25:50 ◼   ► It's built to be as simple and straightforward as possible

00:25:53 ◼   ► to find exactly what you need.

00:25:54 ◼   ► So go to basecamp.com/accidental today

00:25:58 ◼   ► and you will get 10% off your first six months of Basecamp.

00:26:01 ◼   ► Once again, basecamp.com/accidental

00:26:04 ◼   ► to get 10% off your first six months of Basecamp.

00:26:07 ◼   ► Basecamp is the all-in-one toolkit for working remotely.

00:26:15 ◼   ► Translate, Translate looked really cool.

00:26:17 ◼   ► I know that Google Translate is a thing.

00:26:18 ◼   ► I know it's very good.

00:26:19 ◼   ► I, as with everyone, haven't had the opportunity

00:26:22 ◼   ► to use any sort of translation service for a while.

00:26:25 ◼   ► But it looks really, really neat.

00:26:27 ◼   ► The one thing I wish is that when you were doing

00:26:30 ◼   ► the conversational mode, it seemed like it would be

00:26:32 ◼   ► the perfect opportunity to put your phone in landscape

00:26:35 ◼   ► and set it between you and the person.

00:26:37 ◼   ► And I feel like the opposite person's UI

00:26:41 ◼   ► should be flipped 180 degrees.

00:26:43 ◼   ► Does that make sense?

00:26:43 ◼   ► Right now, you would have to do the like,

00:26:46 ◼   ► hold it up to your face and then hold it up

00:26:48 ◼   ► to the other person's face so they could read

00:26:49 ◼   ► the translated version of what you said was

00:26:51 ◼   ► and then bring it back to your face

00:26:52 ◼   ► so you can read what they said.

00:26:53 ◼   ► It seems like such a good tabletop sort of mode

00:26:56 ◼   ► where the UI is split in half and one person

00:26:59 ◼   ► gets each half facing the correct way.

00:27:02 ◼   ► But with that quibble aside, it looks really nice.

00:27:04 ◼   ► And all the translation is happening on device now,

00:27:07 ◼   ► which is also excellent.

00:27:09 ◼   ► - I wonder what they're using for the translation.

00:27:11 ◼   ► Like, we're all used to using Google Translate

00:27:13 ◼   ► and doing natural language translation

00:27:15 ◼   ► is actually very tricky and Google has spent a long time

00:27:17 ◼   ► trying to make their translation better.

00:27:18 ◼   ► Apple has it as a feature check mark.

00:27:20 ◼   ► Yeah, we've got translation.

00:27:22 ◼   ► But how, how are they doing it?

00:27:23 ◼   ► Presumably, they're not using Google Translate.

00:27:25 ◼   ► Have they developed it in house?

00:27:26 ◼   ► Did they license something?

00:27:27 ◼   ► Is it as good as Google's engine?

00:27:28 ◼   ► This is always the question with all these things.

00:27:30 ◼   ► So I'm glad Apple has checked that box.

00:27:32 ◼   ► I hope they continue to improve Translate.

00:27:35 ◼   ► You're just, we're talking about the Translate app,

00:27:37 ◼   ► but translation is also built into Safari.

00:27:40 ◼   ► Strangely, as far as I'm aware,

00:27:42 ◼   ► it's not built into Messages, right?

00:27:44 ◼   ► Am I wrong about that?

00:27:45 ◼   ► - I think that's correct.

00:27:46 ◼   ► - Yeah, I believe it's only in the Translate app

00:27:48 ◼   ► and then separately in Safari.

00:27:49 ◼   ► - Yeah, so I mean, it seems like a natural inclusion

00:27:51 ◼   ► for a future version of Messages.

00:27:53 ◼   ► So you can have a message conversation

00:27:54 ◼   ► and then just tap on the thing and say,

00:27:56 ◼   ► "Please translate this," but we'll see.

00:27:57 ◼   ► But anyway, it's good that Apple is another catch up

00:28:00 ◼   ► in this area.

00:28:01 ◼   ► And surprisingly, like for the Safari thing,

00:28:04 ◼   ► that's one of the features I hear cited a lot.

00:28:06 ◼   ► It's also one of the reasons I go to Chrome.

00:28:08 ◼   ► Like, I'm, you know, I use Chrome for some things

00:28:09 ◼   ► in Safari for others, but sometimes I'll be using,

00:28:11 ◼   ► you know, one of the things I use Safari for,

00:28:13 ◼   ► I'll be doing that, and I'll land on a page

00:28:15 ◼   ► that I need translated, and I could just go

00:28:17 ◼   ► to translate.google.com and put it in the URL

00:28:19 ◼   ► and blah, blah, blah, but it's so much easier in Chrome

00:28:20 ◼   ► 'cause it just prompts you, and now it's that easy

00:28:22 ◼   ► in Safari, too.

00:28:23 ◼   ► It's, you know, it's a reason a lot of people cite it

00:28:25 ◼   ► for using Chrome, is that, oh, Chrome will translate stuff.

00:28:27 ◼   ► Right, and you can say, "Well, you don't need Chrome

00:28:29 ◼   ► "to translate it, you can, in Safari, just go,"

00:28:31 ◼   ► and they don't wanna hear it.

00:28:32 ◼   ► They're just like, "Chrome just asked me

00:28:33 ◼   ► "if I wanted to translate it and I say yes."

00:28:35 ◼   ► So now, Safari does that, too.

00:28:37 ◼   ► Again, caveats about the potential quality

00:28:39 ◼   ► of the natural language translation, which Google has worked

00:28:41 ◼   ► for years and years on, and Apple just getting started,

00:28:43 ◼   ► but I'm glad the future exists.

00:28:46 ◼   ► - So, messages.

00:28:47 ◼   ► I am really excited about the changes coming to messages.

00:28:51 ◼   ► It seems like they were very polarizing,

00:28:53 ◼   ► and there were a couple of, like, sticks in the mud

00:28:55 ◼   ► that I saw fly by on Twitter that were not into it at all,

00:28:58 ◼   ► but I love the idea that we're gonna have threading.

00:29:01 ◼   ► What were some of the other features that they added?

00:29:03 ◼   ► Oh, pinned conversations. - Pinned conversations,

00:29:05 ◼   ► yeah, and putting little cute photos on your group messages.

00:29:09 ◼   ► I mean, both of those, the pinned and the photos,

00:29:11 ◼   ► are great examples of features that are clearly responses

00:29:15 ◼   ► to how people use messages.

00:29:17 ◼   ► Like, if you're a heavy messages user,

00:29:20 ◼   ► inevitably you have certain message groups

00:29:22 ◼   ► that are just permanent, one for your whole family,

00:29:25 ◼   ► one for a particular group of friends, one for your parents.

00:29:28 ◼   ► And if you're frequently using messages,

00:29:32 ◼   ► a busy day, your parent group could get pushed down,

00:29:34 ◼   ► and you wanna check in with your parents again at night,

00:29:36 ◼   ► and you gotta scroll and find the parent group

00:29:38 ◼   ► or try and type in the names again or something like that.

00:29:41 ◼   ► Having pinned conversations and having cute little icons

00:29:44 ◼   ► for your pinned conversation groups lets you just say,

00:29:46 ◼   ► look, I'm always going to want to talk to my immediate

00:29:49 ◼   ► family, my parent, my in-laws, my group of friends,

00:29:52 ◼   ► my, you know, soccer team, whatever.

00:29:54 ◼   ► Like, just pick a set of those and pin them,

00:29:57 ◼   ► 'cause you're always gonna wanna go back to them,

00:29:58 ◼   ► and then there's everything else.

00:29:59 ◼   ► And then the threading, if you're in a big group

00:30:02 ◼   ► conversation and people are communicating asynchronously,

00:30:05 ◼   ► sometimes you want to respond to something

00:30:08 ◼   ► that was said a long time, it's like the point of threading.

00:30:09 ◼   ► Sometimes you want to say, what are you actually

00:30:11 ◼   ► responding to, what are you saying ha ha to,

00:30:13 ◼   ► what is that lol about, like, I need to know.

00:30:15 ◼   ► So we can, you know, so threads are a thing,

00:30:18 ◼   ► and they can have good implementations and bad, I think.

00:30:20 ◼   ► Today we have enough experience, these type of interfaces,

00:30:24 ◼   ► that you can strike a reasonable balance.

00:30:26 ◼   ► We'll see how, what this balance is,

00:30:27 ◼   ► 'cause they're saying, yes, you can,

00:30:29 ◼   ► essentially threading information will be there,

00:30:31 ◼   ► but the messages will, of course, still appear linearly,

00:30:33 ◼   ► and you can sort of group them by thread,

00:30:35 ◼   ► so I'm not sure about the UI,

00:30:37 ◼   ► but it's kind of like translation.

00:30:39 ◼   ► Any amount of threading is better than none.

00:30:42 ◼   ► If people don't like it, just don't use it,

00:30:44 ◼   ► and it generates to the non-threading form,

00:30:45 ◼   ► but I think people will like it and use it,

00:30:48 ◼   ► again, as evidenced from using things like Slack,

00:30:49 ◼   ► where people were very nervous when threading appeared,

00:30:52 ◼   ► but now people use it in what I think

00:30:55 ◼   ► is a pretty natural way, like,

00:30:58 ◼   ► there's not a lot of threading about threads,

00:30:59 ◼   ► people just sort of use them and understand them

00:31:01 ◼   ► and appreciate them, they haven't overwhelmed Slack

00:31:04 ◼   ► and made it unusable, nor do they go entirely unused,

00:31:08 ◼   ► and I hope messages will turn out the same way.

00:31:10 ◼   ► - Yeah, I like seeing that Apple's really taking messages

00:31:14 ◼   ► as seriously as it deserves,

00:31:17 ◼   ► and there's also, which we'll get to in a little while,

00:31:19 ◼   ► there's the new Messages app on the Mac,

00:31:21 ◼   ► which is now built with Catalyst

00:31:23 ◼   ► and has apparently feature parity with iOS,

00:31:25 ◼   ► which is a first, and what I like about this is,

00:31:28 ◼   ► messages is incredibly highly used.

00:31:31 ◼   ► I mean, even with the stats they gave,

00:31:33 ◼   ► that kind of blew my mind, they said that there's a

00:31:35 ◼   ► 40% increase in messages sent since last year,

00:31:38 ◼   ► and twice as many group messages,

00:31:40 ◼   ► so that's kind of incredible for one year of growth

00:31:42 ◼   ► on something that's a pretty mature platform,

00:31:45 ◼   ► but messages are so big, so I see, with Overcast,

00:31:49 ◼   ► one of the analytics that I capture is,

00:31:51 ◼   ► when you do a share with the activity sheet,

00:31:54 ◼   ► I save as an analytic, like,

00:31:56 ◼   ► what type of shared destination did you use?

00:31:58 ◼   ► So it's things like copy to clipboard,

00:32:00 ◼   ► send to messages, that kind of stuff,

00:32:02 ◼   ► and send to messages destroys everything else.

00:32:05 ◼   ► It is so much more, so far and above,

00:32:08 ◼   ► well more used than any other kind of

00:32:12 ◼   ► shared destination in the app.

00:32:14 ◼   ► And so, and like, when I designed the share panel,

00:32:17 ◼   ► I was thinking people would be like

00:32:18 ◼   ► sharing social networks and everything,

00:32:20 ◼   ► and they do, but it's nowhere close to messages.

00:32:24 ◼   ► Like, not even close.

00:32:26 ◼   ► I think we, as like podcasters and, you know,

00:32:30 ◼   ► public Twitter personalities, I think we,

00:32:33 ◼   ► we might underestimate how many people

00:32:36 ◼   ► communicate with their friends and family

00:32:38 ◼   ► only via messages and stuff, as opposed to doing anything

00:32:42 ◼   ► on the public social networks,

00:32:43 ◼   ► or they do so much more of it in messages

00:32:45 ◼   ► than on public social networks.

00:32:46 ◼   ► It's so big, and so for Apple to invest in it seriously,

00:32:50 ◼   ► and not to just let it languish and let it fall behind

00:32:53 ◼   ► alternatives like WhatsApp and stuff like that,

00:32:55 ◼   ► is really important, and so I'm glad to see

00:32:57 ◼   ► they're doing that here.

00:32:58 ◼   ► - Yeah, Apple has said in years past

00:33:00 ◼   ► that messages is the most used app on the entire phone.

00:33:03 ◼   ► Like, you remember we were saying, it's a phone,

00:33:04 ◼   ► so it should have the phone message taken over.

00:33:06 ◼   ► Really what it essentially is, is a messaging device.

00:33:09 ◼   ► Like, that's basically what people use their phone for.

00:33:12 ◼   ► They don't use it for phone calls,

00:33:13 ◼   ► they don't use it to browse the web or read Twitter,

00:33:16 ◼   ► and like, if you had to say to a first approximation,

00:33:18 ◼   ► what are these devices for?

00:33:19 ◼   ► Again, just go into public, when you can someday again,

00:33:22 ◼   ► and look at what people are doing on their phone.

00:33:25 ◼   ► Chances are good they're using messages.

00:33:26 ◼   ► It is the most popular app by a lot.

00:33:29 ◼   ► So, yeah, I always felt like their conservatism

00:33:32 ◼   ► with the evolution of messages is very similar

00:33:35 ◼   ► to the home screen, which obviously is not really an app,

00:33:38 ◼   ► but everyone uses, you have no choice,

00:33:40 ◼   ► it's there when you turn on your phone.

00:33:42 ◼   ► You don't wanna screw it up, and in the case of messages,

00:33:46 ◼   ► it's a high volume service, and history has shown

00:33:50 ◼   ► that making changes to it is a little bit fraught.

00:33:53 ◼   ► Witness messages in the cloud, which was delayed on release

00:33:56 ◼   ► and I think is still a little bit buggy.

00:33:58 ◼   ► So you really don't wanna mess it up,

00:34:00 ◼   ► but you do have to try and kinda key up with the Joneses.

00:34:03 ◼   ► So I think Apple is still lagging behind

00:34:05 ◼   ► and is still not able to confidently make

00:34:09 ◼   ► these kinds of changes.

00:34:11 ◼   ► Every time they make one,

00:34:11 ◼   ► we're all nervous that it's gonna screw up,

00:34:13 ◼   ► but it is important for them to keep trying.

00:34:15 ◼   ► So thumbs up on this change.

00:34:17 ◼   ► Hopefully it doesn't, hopefully it's stable and works well.

00:34:21 ◼   ► - Yeah, the one change that I'm most excited for

00:34:23 ◼   ► is threading because on some group text messages

00:34:26 ◼   ► or group iMessages, I should say,

00:34:28 ◼   ► there are definitely times that I get a little lost,

00:34:30 ◼   ► especially if I'm coming back to something later.

00:34:32 ◼   ► So I have a group thread or a group chat

00:34:37 ◼   ► with a couple of other car nerd friends of mine,

00:34:39 ◼   ► not you guys, and there's oftentimes

00:34:43 ◼   ► where one of us will come back,

00:34:45 ◼   ► not having seen the chat for a couple hours,

00:34:47 ◼   ► and the two remaining people will have been chatting

00:34:50 ◼   ► for the last two hours and there'll be 50 messages there.

00:34:53 ◼   ► And often I wanna reply, if it's me that's coming back to it,

00:34:55 ◼   ► I wanna reply to something that happened way back when,

00:34:58 ◼   ► and that's very hard to do without reestablishing

00:35:01 ◼   ► a new context and so on and so forth.

00:35:03 ◼   ► And so I'm really excited for threads.

00:35:06 ◼   ► However, I just recently was trying to send a Twitter link

00:35:11 ◼   ► to a group chat that was myself

00:35:16 ◼   ► and just a couple other people.

00:35:18 ◼   ► And so I went and I looked for the icon that was myself

00:35:23 ◼   ► and one of the people in this group chat.

00:35:26 ◼   ► It just so happened to be my brother-in-law.

00:35:28 ◼   ► So I look for an icon that has like my brother-in-law

00:35:30 ◼   ► and a little teeny blob,

00:35:32 ◼   ► and you'll have several circles for the group chats

00:35:34 ◼   ► and the little teeny blob of his picture.

00:35:36 ◼   ► And I just quickly went there, pasted and hit send.

00:35:40 ◼   ► And then I realized I had sent to a different chat

00:35:43 ◼   ► that was much wider, that had many more people

00:35:46 ◼   ► than just him in it, he was in the other one,

00:35:48 ◼   ► but I misfired on account of just looking for him

00:35:51 ◼   ► and then immediately firing.

00:35:53 ◼   ► And it was not the sort of thing that I wanted to misfire

00:35:55 ◼   ► to this larger group, and I'm not going to give

00:35:56 ◼   ► any more details than that, but I felt real dumb

00:35:59 ◼   ► and I really regretted it.

00:36:00 ◼   ► So being able to have a special image for group chats

00:36:05 ◼   ► that you can actually add in and specify is awesome.

00:36:08 ◼   ► With all that said though, the only problem here

00:36:11 ◼   ► is that this particular, my particular brother-in-law

00:36:15 ◼   ► is an Android user.

00:36:16 ◼   ► And so I'm assuming that since we can't even rename

00:36:19 ◼   ► group chats that are SMS or I guess MMS only,

00:36:22 ◼   ► I'm assuming none of these features will be coming

00:36:24 ◼   ► to the messages representation of group MMSs,

00:36:28 ◼   ► and so I'm still screwed either way.

00:36:30 ◼   ► - I'm actually really curious what you sent him.

00:36:32 ◼   ► Like the less you say about it,

00:36:34 ◼   ► the more suspicious it becomes.

00:36:36 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:36:37 ◼   ► Maybe I don't want to know.

00:36:38 ◼   ► - No, I'll tell you after the show.

00:36:39 ◼   ► - Oh God.

00:36:40 ◼   ► - But yeah, I'm really excited for all the messages changes.

00:36:42 ◼   ► I'm super duper excited to hear that there's parody

00:36:45 ◼   ► on Mac OS, Big Sur, spoiler alert,

00:36:47 ◼   ► or Bug Sur, depending on who you ask.

00:36:49 ◼   ► But anyways--

00:36:50 ◼   ► - What an amazing typo.

00:36:52 ◼   ► - Oh God, what a good typo.

00:36:53 ◼   ► But anyway, I'm really excited for that.

00:36:55 ◼   ► Trying to plow right along as quickly as possible.

00:36:57 ◼   ► Maps got some updates, including cycling directions

00:36:59 ◼   ► and EV routing, two things I don't care about.

00:37:01 ◼   ► Now Marco, I know you are super excited

00:37:03 ◼   ► about the EV routing changes,

00:37:04 ◼   ► especially while you use CarPlay in your, oh, sorry.

00:37:08 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:37:09 ◼   ► - Tesla's already got EV routing that's customized to it,

00:37:12 ◼   ► so he's not really missing out on that,

00:37:13 ◼   ► but it is a continued shame that Tesla hasn't found a way

00:37:16 ◼   ► to square that circle with CarPlay.

00:37:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's basically, it's adding to apparently

00:37:21 ◼   ► just BMWs and Fords so far, but more cars coming later,

00:37:25 ◼   ► the ability to build in charging stops to your routes,

00:37:29 ◼   ► which is what Tesla's map and its cars

00:37:31 ◼   ► have done since day one.

00:37:32 ◼   ► So it's nice, I can tell you, that's a wonderful feature.

00:37:36 ◼   ► It is very nice, it won't affect me at all,

00:37:37 ◼   ► but it is very nice, and yeah, man, it really stung,

00:37:41 ◼   ► we'll get to CarPlay in a second,

00:37:42 ◼   ► it really stung when Craig said about CarPlay,

00:37:44 ◼   ► it's available on basically every new car.

00:37:47 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:37:50 ◼   ► I think Tesla might be the only remaining holdout

00:37:52 ◼   ► of any major car brand now, like I'm pretty sure,

00:37:56 ◼   ► I can't think of any other car brand

00:37:58 ◼   ► that does not offer CarPlay at all.

00:37:59 ◼   ► I mean, hell, Porsche even offers it

00:38:01 ◼   ► for their cars made in the '60s.

00:38:02 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:38:04 ◼   ► We can't even get it on Tesla.

00:38:05 ◼   ► And that is becoming increasingly a problem

00:38:09 ◼   ► for Apple people who have Teslas.

00:38:11 ◼   ► Whatever is causing them to not wanna do that,

00:38:16 ◼   ► I wish they would work it out.

00:38:18 ◼   ► - Moving right along, we can talk about the Home app,

00:38:21 ◼   ► and it's getting adaptive lighting,

00:38:23 ◼   ► which is I guess sort of kind of,

00:38:25 ◼   ► but not really night shift, but for your physical lights

00:38:28 ◼   ► instead of your computer and your other devices,

00:38:32 ◼   ► which is pretty cool.

00:38:33 ◼   ► The face recognition thing, so I think I blanked

00:38:35 ◼   ► when that was coming across, so it won't alert

00:38:38 ◼   ► when it sees somebody that it knows at your front door,

00:38:41 ◼   ► is that correct?

00:38:42 ◼   ► - It will alert and tell you who it is.

00:38:45 ◼   ► - Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa.

00:38:46 ◼   ► - Yeah, this is like feature parody,

00:38:48 ◼   ► a lot of these home features are sort of feature parody

00:38:50 ◼   ► and APIs for things that are just expected

00:38:52 ◼   ► from home automation.

00:38:53 ◼   ► This is more catch-up stuff, like in any sort of

00:38:56 ◼   ► camera system, probably has some kind of

00:38:58 ◼   ► face recognition in the library,

00:38:59 ◼   ► and this is HomeKit support for that.

00:39:02 ◼   ► Activity zones specify the region of the camera's view

00:39:06 ◼   ► that you're actually interested in.

00:39:08 ◼   ► More catch-up features, but these are sort of necessary

00:39:11 ◼   ► stuff to be a player in this game that you have to support,

00:39:15 ◼   ► so good on Apple for catching up.

00:39:18 ◼   ► I'm really curious to see how this works,

00:39:19 ◼   ► because I have some Nest cameras,

00:39:22 ◼   ► and first of all, their zone detection is garbage,

00:39:27 ◼   ► and their motion detection and everything,

00:39:30 ◼   ► their Nest cameras seem unaware that the sun

00:39:34 ◼   ► moves throughout the day, and as a result,

00:39:38 ◼   ► shadows happen and shadows move across rooms

00:39:41 ◼   ► very slowly throughout the day as well,

00:39:44 ◼   ► and Nest's face recognition is also total garbage.

00:39:47 ◼   ► So I'm really curious to see how this works out

00:39:49 ◼   ► in practice with these products.

00:39:51 ◼   ► This has been the kind of thing that companies

00:39:53 ◼   ► have advertised for years, as John said.

00:39:56 ◼   ► There used to even be apps for your Mac

00:39:58 ◼   ► to let your Mac webcam do many of these same functionalities.

00:40:01 ◼   ► They've never worked that well.

00:40:03 ◼   ► So yeah, this is very much a wait and see for me.

00:40:06 ◼   ► Certainly, this is the kind of thing like,

00:40:08 ◼   ► you'd expect Nest being Google-owned

00:40:10 ◼   ► to be good at that kind of stuff, and they're super not.

00:40:13 ◼   ► So we will see, I hope it works out well.

00:40:16 ◼   ► Also, I thought it was very entertaining

00:40:18 ◼   ► that during this home segment, I'm pretty sure

00:40:20 ◼   ► Casey's garage door opener Raspberry Pi was Sherlock'd.

00:40:23 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:40:25 ◼   ► - You know, everyone has been saying that,

00:40:27 ◼   ► but I have had a Homebridge-powered home kit front end

00:40:32 ◼   ► for my Raspberry Pi garage door opener doohicker

00:40:38 ◼   ► since, I don't know, like a week or so after I installed

00:40:41 ◼   ► just the Raspberry Pi detection and the LED thing.

00:40:44 ◼   ► So I'm not entirely clear what this is buying me

00:40:47 ◼   ► other than more prominence, and I guess maybe alerting

00:40:51 ◼   ► if the garage door's left open.

00:40:52 ◼   ► Is that the only new stuff?

00:40:54 ◼   ► - I don't know, it breezed by really fast,

00:40:57 ◼   ► so it's a little hard to know yet.

00:40:59 ◼   ► - I think it is alerting, which coincidentally,

00:41:01 ◼   ► I don't think I talk about this on the show,

00:41:02 ◼   ► but I did set up a home kit automation

00:41:07 ◼   ► that when it detects that everyone has left the house,

00:41:12 ◼   ► it will then read the state of the garage door,

00:41:16 ◼   ► and it will send me a push notification saying either,

00:41:19 ◼   ► you know, you're good, the garage door's closed,

00:41:20 ◼   ► or oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, it's open.

00:41:22 ◼   ► And that's actually a fairly challenging thing to do,

00:41:24 ◼   ► because using the out of the box shortcuts functionality,

00:41:29 ◼   ► you can't send a push notification based on a home kit event.

00:41:33 ◼   ► So what I'm actually doing is calling an API

00:41:37 ◼   ► that I have on my server via HTTP

00:41:40 ◼   ► that's then basically just proxying that to PushOver,

00:41:43 ◼   ► which is a really cool app that has its own front end

00:41:46 ◼   ► to sending push notifications to your phone.

00:41:47 ◼   ► So when the last, between Aaron and I,

00:41:50 ◼   ► when the last of us leaves,

00:41:52 ◼   ► the home kit will check the state of the garage door,

00:41:53 ◼   ► make an HTTP request to my server,

00:41:55 ◼   ► which makes a HTTP request to PushOver.

00:41:57 ◼   ► I guess I could skip that hop, but my API is--

00:42:00 ◼   ► - This is so complicated.

00:42:01 ◼   ► - It's the most casey answer,

00:42:03 ◼   ► the solution to this problem ever.

00:42:05 ◼   ► But anyways, my API's so much simpler.

00:42:08 ◼   ► And so it'll send a push notification to my phone,

00:42:10 ◼   ► which is super cool, and I was very proud

00:42:11 ◼   ► of figuring out a way to get around the limitation

00:42:13 ◼   ► that you can't send yourself a push from a home kit,

00:42:17 ◼   ► from a home kit automation.

00:42:18 ◼   ► Anyway, it is super cool that they're getting

00:42:22 ◼   ► a little bit more support for that sort of thing.

00:42:24 ◼   ► Moving on, let's talk about CarPlay,

00:42:26 ◼   ► because it makes me so happy to hear you suffer.

00:42:29 ◼   ► I mean, it makes me so happy.

00:42:30 ◼   ► - You jumped ahead, you skipped CarKey, the App Store,

00:42:34 ◼   ► iPad OS, AirPods, WatchOS, and Privacy.

00:42:37 ◼   ► - Can I skip all, I'm just going off the show notes, man.

00:42:39 ◼   ► - No, you're not following in the notes document.

00:42:41 ◼   ► Mark, you don't know what's going on.

00:42:42 ◼   ► - No, I'm following keynote order.

00:42:44 ◼   ► - Well, okay, so the key, we're,

00:42:46 ◼   ► the document is taking precedence here,

00:42:49 ◼   ► because we're gonna skip stuff in the keynote.

00:42:52 ◼   ► But if you have better notes,

00:42:53 ◼   ► you could have put them into the document.

00:42:54 ◼   ► - Okay, we know, your document knows better than Apple

00:42:57 ◼   ► what order things should be presented in.

00:42:58 ◼   ► - No, I'm just saying that the document

00:43:00 ◼   ► is what Casey's going off of,

00:43:01 ◼   ► and he can't see what you're looking at.

00:43:03 ◼   ► - Thank you, John.

00:43:04 ◼   ► - If you had put what you're looking at in the document,

00:43:06 ◼   ► then we could all see it.

00:43:07 ◼   ► - It was broadcast to the world.

00:43:09 ◼   ► - I know.

00:43:10 ◼   ► - All right, we'll bicker about it later.

00:43:11 ◼   ► We'll bicker about it later.

00:43:12 ◼   ► But the next thing in the document is CarPlay.

00:43:14 ◼   ► - You can reorder it in the edit.

00:43:15 ◼   ► You have ultimate power here, Mark.

00:43:16 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:43:18 ◼   ► - Oh no.

00:43:19 ◼   ► The next thing in the document is CarPlay,

00:43:21 ◼   ► and I guess there is some new,

00:43:23 ◼   ► some support for some new styles of app.

00:43:25 ◼   ► I think they said, like, basically fast food apps

00:43:27 ◼   ► you can now put in CarPlay,

00:43:29 ◼   ► which I'm not entirely clear why, but whatever.

00:43:30 ◼   ► - EV charging apps.

00:43:31 ◼   ► - EV charging, there were a couple others.

00:43:34 ◼   ► Yeah, parking, EV charging, and quote, quick food ordering.

00:43:38 ◼   ► Whatever, however that's defined.

00:43:40 ◼   ► So yeah, that's cool.

00:43:41 ◼   ► - They also did a demonstration of car,

00:43:44 ◼   ► I don't know what the Apple marketing term is,

00:43:46 ◼   ► but basically you can unlock your car with your phone.

00:43:47 ◼   ► - Car key.

00:43:49 ◼   ► - Car key, okay, there you go.

00:43:50 ◼   ► - Yep, and does that use the U1 thing?

00:43:52 ◼   ► - No, so they said, so the first version of it

00:43:55 ◼   ► that's going on the 2021 BMW 5 series does not use the U1.

00:44:00 ◼   ► It seems to be using something much closer,

00:44:03 ◼   ► maybe NFC based it seems,

00:44:05 ◼   ► because you have to be very close to it.

00:44:07 ◼   ► But then they said at the end, they said that

00:44:09 ◼   ► in the future, future integrations will use the U1

00:44:13 ◼   ► so that you can keep your phone in your bag

00:44:15 ◼   ► or in your pocket and not place it directly against the door.

00:44:19 ◼   ► So it does seem like it's probably NFC based to start

00:44:22 ◼   ► and will be enhanced with the U1.

00:44:23 ◼   ► 'Cause what they need is,

00:44:25 ◼   ► they don't wanna use something like Bluetooth

00:44:27 ◼   ► because Bluetooth can have things like,

00:44:30 ◼   ► first of all it could be too long range

00:44:32 ◼   ► and there could be issues with like,

00:44:34 ◼   ► somebody could set up like a Bluetooth repeater

00:44:36 ◼   ► or something, so if you're in a restaurant,

00:44:38 ◼   ► they could set up like a repeater outside the window

00:44:40 ◼   ► and unlock your car from further away

00:44:42 ◼   ► than you actually are and drive off.

00:44:44 ◼   ► Well, the ultra wide band in U1, it's immune to that.

00:44:47 ◼   ► Like it can't have those kind of attacks.

00:44:49 ◼   ► It's like the way it works, it can detect that

00:44:51 ◼   ► and rule those out.

00:44:52 ◼   ► And so they need to use, I'm guessing what they're using

00:44:55 ◼   ► is NFC for this first version

00:44:58 ◼   ► because that is like only close proximity

00:45:01 ◼   ► and it's easier to enforce that way.

00:45:02 ◼   ► Whereas once they have a better integration

00:45:04 ◼   ► using the U1 chip, they can detect like,

00:45:07 ◼   ► okay this is in your pocket,

00:45:08 ◼   ► so it's maybe 12 inches away from the receiver

00:45:11 ◼   ► but that's close enough, we'll let it unlock.

00:45:13 ◼   ► So, but that is, they didn't give a date for that.

00:45:16 ◼   ► They just kinda said like, soon.

00:45:18 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:45:19 ◼   ► Safari, some pretty big changes to Safari.

00:45:22 ◼   ► The thing, it made me so happy

00:45:24 ◼   ► and oh, the schadenfreude was so strong.

00:45:28 ◼   ► Just watching them discuss the privacy report feature.

00:45:32 ◼   ► So this is a new thing where you can,

00:45:34 ◼   ► on any website I guess, you can go and look at

00:45:37 ◼   ► what Safari thinks it's doing,

00:45:39 ◼   ► the website is doing in terms of tracking you.

00:45:41 ◼   ► And so, there was an example, like a quick demo on stage

00:45:45 ◼   ► and they said, or in the video or whatever,

00:45:48 ◼   ► and they said, okay let's see what's tracking us.

00:45:49 ◼   ► And right there is DoubleClick and Google Analytics

00:45:52 ◼   ► like featured front and center.

00:45:54 ◼   ► Which was so amazing.

00:45:55 ◼   ► But basically this will let you see

00:45:57 ◼   ► what is a website trying to do

00:45:58 ◼   ► or how many different trackers there are

00:46:00 ◼   ► and I guess not what they're doing with your information

00:46:02 ◼   ► but how many people are trying to slurp up your information.

00:46:05 ◼   ► And I think part of the reason,

00:46:07 ◼   ► this is not a very earth-shattering idea

00:46:10 ◼   ► but I think part of the reason why websites

00:46:12 ◼   ► can get away with slurping up all this data

00:46:13 ◼   ► is because most people, even I as a developer

00:46:17 ◼   ► and former web developer, I don't really have a good view

00:46:21 ◼   ► for how much data is being sucked up

00:46:23 ◼   ► every time I go to a website.

00:46:25 ◼   ► And so, I think making this more prominent

00:46:29 ◼   ► is presumably going to have,

00:46:32 ◼   ► and hopefully going to have a tangible impact

00:46:35 ◼   ► on a lot of websites.

00:46:36 ◼   ► Now, it may be that the only impact is

00:46:37 ◼   ► instead of using third-party stuff

00:46:39 ◼   ► that all becomes first-party and it's all proxied out

00:46:41 ◼   ► and it gets even grosser.

00:46:44 ◼   ► But in the same way that like the location services prompts

00:46:47 ◼   ► made it more obvious and the Bluetooth prompts

00:46:49 ◼   ► made it more obvious when an iOS app

00:46:52 ◼   ► was trying to do something that could,

00:46:54 ◼   ► but not necessarily is, but could be nefarious,

00:46:56 ◼   ► this will hopefully make it much more obvious

00:46:59 ◼   ► when all of these websites are doing things

00:47:01 ◼   ► that are almost exclusively nefarious things.

00:47:03 ◼   ► And so, I am really, really looking forward

00:47:05 ◼   ► to hopefully seeing changes across the web

00:47:07 ◼   ► for the better because of this.

00:47:09 ◼   ► - Well, keep in mind, it's not just telling you

00:47:11 ◼   ► what the trackers are, it's telling you

00:47:12 ◼   ► which trackers it blocked.

00:47:13 ◼   ► They have, you know, their intelligent tracking preventions

00:47:15 ◼   ► that are built into Safari.

00:47:16 ◼   ► You're supposed to look at this and A,

00:47:17 ◼   ► be terrified that all these trackers are there

00:47:19 ◼   ► and B, be thankful that Safari says,

00:47:21 ◼   ► "Look at all these things I blocked for you.

00:47:22 ◼   ► "My intelligent tracking prevention system blocked."

00:47:24 ◼   ► X, Y, Z, you know, like that's the pitch.

00:47:27 ◼   ► So it is both sales pitch and knowledge.

00:47:29 ◼   ► And it's good because if you were to look at this

00:47:32 ◼   ► and just say, "Oh, here are all the trackers."

00:47:33 ◼   ► Your question would be,

00:47:34 ◼   ► "So what am I supposed to do about that?"

00:47:36 ◼   ► Like, I don't like it, what am I supposed to do about it?

00:47:37 ◼   ► Now when you look at it, it will say,

00:47:39 ◼   ► "Here's what Safari already did for you."

00:47:41 ◼   ► And it will make you feel better.

00:47:42 ◼   ► It may also change your opinion of the site

00:47:43 ◼   ► that it had all these things that had to be blocked,

00:47:45 ◼   ► but mostly I think it's building an understanding

00:47:49 ◼   ► in the public, not so much what you're being tracked about,

00:47:52 ◼   ► but the fact that Safari has features that prevent that

00:47:55 ◼   ► and that's why you should use Safari

00:47:56 ◼   ► instead of Chrome or whatever, right?

00:47:58 ◼   ► Whereas if Safari just does that behind the scenes,

00:48:00 ◼   ► which it has been, maybe you don't appreciate that

00:48:03 ◼   ► and it's not like a selling feature of Safari.

00:48:06 ◼   ► Similar to this, another feature that lots of other browsers

00:48:09 ◼   ► have that Safari now has,

00:48:11 ◼   ► which is password compromise detection.

00:48:14 ◼   ► Safari through its key chain integration

00:48:16 ◼   ► will store passwords for various websites

00:48:18 ◼   ► and Apple will now be keeping track

00:48:21 ◼   ► of these big metadata jumps to say,

00:48:24 ◼   ► "We know that this many passwords were leaked

00:48:26 ◼   ► "from this website on this date,"

00:48:28 ◼   ► and they'll just update that database

00:48:30 ◼   ► and they'll be able to tell you,

00:48:31 ◼   ► "By the way, we saw that your email address

00:48:33 ◼   ► "and this password were compromised on this website,

00:48:35 ◼   ► "so you should probably change it."

00:48:36 ◼   ► If you reuse your passwords,

00:48:38 ◼   ► it may be a little bit overwhelming to see,

00:48:41 ◼   ► "Oh my God, I have to change my password on 20 websites

00:48:43 ◼   ► "'cause I use my dog's name as the password

00:48:46 ◼   ► "on all 20 of these websites."

00:48:48 ◼   ► That can be overwhelming

00:48:49 ◼   ► and I don't know if it'll make people

00:48:50 ◼   ► just throw up their hands,

00:48:51 ◼   ► but in theory, if you were using good, unique passwords

00:48:54 ◼   ► for each website, when one gets compromised,

00:48:56 ◼   ► you'll at least know that password is burned

00:48:58 ◼   ► and maybe you should change your password.

00:49:00 ◼   ► And I know from using, I guess, Firefox, maybe Edge,

00:49:03 ◼   ► I don't know, some third-party browsers that are not Safari,

00:49:07 ◼   ► on my Mac, I've gotten these notifications,

00:49:09 ◼   ► mostly for websites that I haven't logged into

00:49:12 ◼   ► since the early 2000s or even the '90s,

00:49:14 ◼   ► but if I get a notification,

00:49:15 ◼   ► I'll go over to it and change the password.

00:49:17 ◼   ► It was probably a garbage password

00:49:19 ◼   ► that I haven't used in a decade anyway,

00:49:21 ◼   ► but it's good to know,

00:49:22 ◼   ► or I'll go over there and close the account.

00:49:23 ◼   ► That's the other reminder.

00:49:24 ◼   ► It's like, "I still have an account on that website?

00:49:25 ◼   ► "Let me just delete that account."

00:49:26 ◼   ► That's another solution to the problem.

00:49:28 ◼   ► So I'm glad this has come to Safari

00:49:29 ◼   ► because it's a useful feature,

00:49:30 ◼   ► but I do worry about regular people being overwhelmed

00:49:33 ◼   ► when the one password they use on every website

00:49:35 ◼   ► is compromised and they're like, "What do I do now?"

00:49:38 ◼   ► Well, what can you do?

00:49:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, and it's also been a feature of 1Password as well.

00:49:43 ◼   ► Like they check with like, have I been pwned

00:49:45 ◼   ► in the various sources and do a similar warning?

00:49:48 ◼   ► Going back a minute,

00:49:49 ◼   ► just before we leave the privacy warning thing,

00:49:51 ◼   ► first of all, this is basically what the Ghostery plugin did

00:49:54 ◼   ► back forever ago.

00:49:55 ◼   ► It is really nice to see like the list of trackers

00:49:57 ◼   ► on websites that are being blocked

00:50:00 ◼   ► because this is kind of a pattern

00:50:02 ◼   ► that Apple has followed a lot to great success, I think,

00:50:05 ◼   ► where as Casey, you were saying a minute ago

00:50:08 ◼   ► that a lot of times your data's being tracked

00:50:11 ◼   ► or leaked or creepily captured,

00:50:13 ◼   ► and you have no idea

00:50:15 ◼   ► what is just happening behind the scenes

00:50:17 ◼   ► in ways that aren't visible to you.

00:50:19 ◼   ► And one consistent strategy Apple does

00:50:21 ◼   ► in these kind of contexts is shine a light on it

00:50:24 ◼   ► when it happens.

00:50:25 ◼   ► Either to just outright ban or block such behavior,

00:50:30 ◼   ► or in cases where that's impractical or impossible,

00:50:33 ◼   ► Apple likes to reveal that behavior to you

00:50:35 ◼   ► so that you can make decisions

00:50:37 ◼   ► and you can be more in control

00:50:38 ◼   ► and that bad actors can be discovered

00:50:41 ◼   ► and shamed or controlled out of the bad behavior.

00:50:45 ◼   ► And so in this case, web tracker's part of the reason

00:50:48 ◼   ► why it's been such a big business forever,

00:50:51 ◼   ► and continues to be and look needed to be,

00:50:52 ◼   ► is that pages can track all sorts of creepy crap

00:50:55 ◼   ► using JavaScript in the background

00:50:56 ◼   ► that you have no idea is even running.

00:50:58 ◼   ► So anything that shines a light on it

00:51:01 ◼   ► and calls out exactly what it's doing,

00:51:04 ◼   ► any sites or bad actors that care about how they look

00:51:10 ◼   ► and that might hear from the users about what's going on,

00:51:13 ◼   ► they'll be forced to consider better behavior,

00:51:16 ◼   ► and even the ones that don't care,

00:51:17 ◼   ► at least users who care themselves can be more in control,

00:51:20 ◼   ► can see what's going on,

00:51:21 ◼   ► can be more aware of what's happening,

00:51:23 ◼   ► and can maybe take technical countermeasures on their end,

00:51:26 ◼   ► like running a blocker or something like that on their end

00:51:28 ◼   ► to control such things.

00:51:29 ◼   ► So anytime Apple can shine a light on creepy behavior

00:51:33 ◼   ► and put control back in the user's hands,

00:51:35 ◼   ► that's a very good thing,

00:51:36 ◼   ► and it's exactly what they've done here.

00:51:38 ◼   ► And in fact, there's also a thing later on

00:51:39 ◼   ► that I don't think we'll get to separately,

00:51:41 ◼   ► so I'll ruin it here,

00:51:42 ◼   ► we're doing the same thing in iOS 14,

00:51:45 ◼   ► whenever the camera or microphones are being recorded from,

00:51:48 ◼   ► there's now a recording dot in the status bar,

00:51:51 ◼   ► and that's great, 'cause that's another thing that,

00:51:54 ◼   ► they've had the permissions dialogue for,

00:51:57 ◼   ► do you want this app to access the camera and microphone

00:51:59 ◼   ► for a couple years, but once you get permission,

00:52:02 ◼   ► you didn't know when it was doing that.

00:52:04 ◼   ► So for instance, an app like a social network

00:52:06 ◼   ► that records pictures or videos,

00:52:08 ◼   ► you would give it permission,

00:52:09 ◼   ► 'cause obviously you need that to work.

00:52:11 ◼   ► But do you want it to be turning on your microphone

00:52:13 ◼   ► and your camera when you don't know it?

00:52:15 ◼   ► Probably not.

00:52:16 ◼   ► So a very useful thing here to control some privacy,

00:52:20 ◼   ► potential leaks or violations, is give people an indicator.

00:52:23 ◼   ► Same thing with location access,

00:52:24 ◼   ► it's always an indicator.

00:52:25 ◼   ► So yeah, anything that Apple can do to shine a light

00:52:28 ◼   ► on potential privacy invasions or risks

00:52:32 ◼   ► and give users knowledge and control,

00:52:35 ◼   ► that is always successful,

00:52:37 ◼   ► and I'm glad to see that happening in more places.

00:52:39 ◼   ► - Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

00:52:41 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

00:52:42 ◼   ► - We are sponsored this week by Mack Weldon,

00:52:44 ◼   ► better than whatever you're wearing right now.

00:52:47 ◼   ► Mack Weldon is a premium men's essentials brand

00:52:50 ◼   ► that believes in smart design and premium fabrics.

00:52:53 ◼   ► They started out, they probably got,

00:52:54 ◼   ► they really got famous with their industry-leading underwear

00:52:57 ◼   ► and they still make that underwear, it's still wonderful,

00:52:59 ◼   ► I wear a pair literally every day.

00:53:01 ◼   ► Not the same pair, obviously, I have many of them,

00:53:03 ◼   ► but I wear their underwear every day.

00:53:05 ◼   ► But they're so much more than just an underwear company.

00:53:08 ◼   ► They really are a one-stop shop for basics of all kinds.

00:53:12 ◼   ► This is things like socks, shirts, of course the underwear,

00:53:15 ◼   ► hoodies, pants, and these really are the longest lasting,

00:53:19 ◼   ► highest quality items on the market.

00:53:22 ◼   ► These will be super comfortable,

00:53:24 ◼   ► the most comfortable underwear, socks, shirts,

00:53:25 ◼   ► undershirts, hoodies, whatever, that you will ever wear.

00:53:29 ◼   ► They are also highly functional.

00:53:30 ◼   ► I wear these all summer long.

00:53:31 ◼   ► Right now, I am wearing Mack Weldon underwear,

00:53:35 ◼   ► Mack Weldon shorts, and a Mack Weldon t-shirt.

00:53:37 ◼   ► And part of the reason I wear this all summer

00:53:39 ◼   ► is because their silver line is naturally antimicrobial.

00:53:42 ◼   ► This means all summer long, you can wear these

00:53:44 ◼   ► and you won't stink.

00:53:46 ◼   ► I know, 'cause I've been doing it

00:53:47 ◼   ► probably the last four years.

00:53:48 ◼   ► It's been wonderful wearing Mack Weldon stuff

00:53:50 ◼   ► all summer long.

00:53:52 ◼   ► And you can try it out for yourself.

00:53:54 ◼   ► They want you to be comfortable.

00:53:55 ◼   ► So if you order a pair of underwear and you don't like it,

00:53:59 ◼   ► you will get a refund and you get to keep the underwear,

00:54:01 ◼   ► no questions asked.

00:54:03 ◼   ► These clothes also perform well, too.

00:54:05 ◼   ► It's good for going out, as well as working out.

00:54:08 ◼   ► Everyday life, whatever your life throws at you,

00:54:10 ◼   ► Mack Weldon has you covered.

00:54:11 ◼   ► They also have a wonderful program for their loyal customers

00:54:14 ◼   ► called the Weldon Blue Loyalty Program.

00:54:16 ◼   ► You create an account for totally free.

00:54:18 ◼   ► You place an order for any amount,

00:54:20 ◼   ► and after that, you get level one

00:54:21 ◼   ► and you never pay for shipping again.

00:54:22 ◼   ► Once you purchase $200 worth of product from Mack Weldon,

00:54:25 ◼   ► you get level two.

00:54:26 ◼   ► You will not only continue to get free shipping,

00:54:27 ◼   ► but you also start saving 20% on every order you make

00:54:30 ◼   ► for a year afterwards.

00:54:31 ◼   ► Level two also grants you access to new products

00:54:33 ◼   ► before they're released to anyone else,

00:54:35 ◼   ► as well as free gifts added to future orders.

00:54:37 ◼   ► So see for yourself at mackweldon.com,

00:54:40 ◼   ► and you can get 20% off your first order

00:54:42 ◼   ► by using code ATPPODCAST.

00:54:44 ◼   ► That's mackweldon.com,

00:54:46 ◼   ► plus a code ATPPODCAST for 20% off your first order.

00:54:49 ◼   ► Thank you so much to Mack Weldon for sponsoring our show.

00:54:52 ◼   ► - I feel a little bit like I'm in the matrix

00:54:58 ◼   ► for this next item here.

00:54:59 ◼   ► You guys both tell me what I'm misremembering.

00:55:02 ◼   ► Let's talk about App Clips for a second.

00:55:04 ◼   ► I could swear, I'm assuming this was not a dream,

00:55:07 ◼   ► this was reality, that this is a feature

00:55:10 ◼   ► that Apple already had and already announced.

00:55:12 ◼   ► What the heck am I remembering

00:55:13 ◼   ► that it was so similar to this?

00:55:14 ◼   ► - Android. - I haven't had it.

00:55:15 ◼   ► - And yep, Android did this exact same thing.

00:55:18 ◼   ► - I have this distinct memory of an Apple keynote

00:55:20 ◼   ► of them announcing essentially the exact same feature

00:55:23 ◼   ► as App Clips, but not by that name.

00:55:24 ◼   ► I don't know, I'm getting old.

00:55:27 ◼   ► Anyway, App Clips is cool.

00:55:29 ◼   ► If it already exists in an alternate universe,

00:55:32 ◼   ► an alternate version of the matrix,

00:55:34 ◼   ► then that's what I'm remembering and I'm sorry.

00:55:36 ◼   ► But it's a way for you to do a thing with an app

00:55:41 ◼   ► that you don't have installed without the hassle of going,

00:55:44 ◼   ► pulled up to the parking meter,

00:55:45 ◼   ► it says I have to download the whatever app.

00:55:47 ◼   ► Oh, I can use the QR code, always taking me to a webpage.

00:55:50 ◼   ► The webpage has a button, okay, download an app store.

00:55:52 ◼   ► Okay, I'm on the app thing, I'm downloading it.

00:55:54 ◼   ► Okay, I'm opening the app.

00:55:55 ◼   ► Okay, I'm launching it, it wants me to sign in.

00:55:57 ◼   ► Okay, I have to create an account.

00:55:58 ◼   ► All right, I've made the account.

00:55:59 ◼   ► Okay, now I've launched the app.

00:56:01 ◼   ► Now I'll scan the QR code again

00:56:03 ◼   ► and now I can pay for parking.

00:56:04 ◼   ► Oh, now I have to enter my credit card number.

00:56:06 ◼   ► App Clips is trying to stop that from happening.

00:56:08 ◼   ► If anyone has ever tried to use like just that one example,

00:56:11 ◼   ► a parking app, you don't know what the hell

00:56:13 ◼   ► parking app this place is using.

00:56:15 ◼   ► You don't care what parking app it's using.

00:56:16 ◼   ► You just wanna park your car.

00:56:18 ◼   ► So they're trying to streamline that process,

00:56:21 ◼   ► which is pick your phone up and put it close to a thing

00:56:25 ◼   ► or scan a thing or whatever and just immediately say,

00:56:28 ◼   ► we know what app this is supposed to be.

00:56:30 ◼   ► We're not even gonna bother downloading the whole app.

00:56:32 ◼   ► We're just gonna download this tiny portion of the app

00:56:33 ◼   ► that you need to do your parking

00:56:35 ◼   ► and in Apple's perfect world.

00:56:37 ◼   ► We'll integrate with Apple Pay

00:56:38 ◼   ► and we'll integrate with Sign in with Apple.

00:56:40 ◼   ► So you don't need to create an account

00:56:41 ◼   ► and you don't need to enter a credit card number

00:56:43 ◼   ► and it's all secure through things

00:56:44 ◼   ► that you trust Apple to do

00:56:45 ◼   ► and you didn't have to download an entire app.

00:56:47 ◼   ► As one of our friends said in Slack

00:56:48 ◼   ► when the segment came on,

00:56:50 ◼   ► I'm going to delete a ton of parking applications

00:56:53 ◼   ► because you don't need to have the parking application.

00:56:55 ◼   ► You don't need like one parking app for every single thing

00:56:58 ◼   ► and have to constantly be updating them

00:56:59 ◼   ► and God knows what those things are doing.

00:57:01 ◼   ► Just use the app clip.

00:57:02 ◼   ► It's 10 megabytes maximum size.

00:57:05 ◼   ► Apple, of course, being Apple,

00:57:06 ◼   ► has its own special QR code that's round

00:57:09 ◼   ► because QR codes are for squares

00:57:11 ◼   ► and it's got a little picture of a phone in the middle.

00:57:14 ◼   ► It looks a little bit like the maze from Westworld,

00:57:17 ◼   ► but it's somewhat disturbing,

00:57:18 ◼   ► but try not to think about that.

00:57:20 ◼   ► Spoilers for Westworld.

00:57:21 ◼   ► - I thought it looked kind of like the Touch ID thing.

00:57:23 ◼   ► - Yes, it does.

00:57:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's like if your fingers were perfectly round.

00:57:27 ◼   ► - Yeah, and you can get the full version of the app

00:57:31 ◼   ► if you want.

00:57:31 ◼   ► Unfortunately, they can prompt you

00:57:32 ◼   ► to get the full version of the app,

00:57:33 ◼   ► so I'm afraid that every single app clip,

00:57:35 ◼   ► all it's going to do is immediately prompt you

00:57:36 ◼   ► for the full version of the app,

00:57:37 ◼   ► but I'm sure Apple has some kind of countermeasures there.

00:57:40 ◼   ► Things that you do in the little app clip

00:57:42 ◼   ► can be carried over to the full app

00:57:44 ◼   ► so it doesn't just forget that you exist.

00:57:45 ◼   ► It knows what you did previously with it.

00:57:47 ◼   ► And of course, it's not just for parking.

00:57:48 ◼   ► It's for any kind of thing where you don't care enough

00:57:51 ◼   ► about the interaction to become a quote, user of the app.

00:57:54 ◼   ► You just want to do the thing.

00:57:56 ◼   ► I love this feature in principle.

00:57:59 ◼   ► In practice, given that we don't live in an all-Apple world,

00:58:02 ◼   ► I expect to still encounter lots and lots of things

00:58:05 ◼   ► that don't know about app clips.

00:58:08 ◼   ► We still encounter 30-pin connectors in hotels, right?

00:58:10 ◼   ► So I'm not optimistic about app clips

00:58:12 ◼   ► changing my life anytime soon,

00:58:14 ◼   ► but I want to live in that world,

00:58:15 ◼   ► even though it's probably going to be a long time coming.

00:58:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, I would love for this to be a success

00:58:21 ◼   ► the way it was demoed.

00:58:23 ◼   ► I hope that sometime in the next three years,

00:58:27 ◼   ► I have that kind of interaction they demoed.

00:58:29 ◼   ► But I think it will take about that long

00:58:30 ◼   ► before it will happen,

00:58:32 ◼   ► and I think it will also be far from universal

00:58:33 ◼   ► for all those reasons.

00:58:35 ◼   ► I had to use one of those parking apps a couple weeks ago,

00:58:38 ◼   ► and it was from one of the biggest vendors

00:58:42 ◼   ► of such parking meter things,

00:58:43 ◼   ► and the app is a horrendous mess, because of course it is.

00:58:46 ◼   ► And it claims to support Apple Pay,

00:58:48 ◼   ► but the Apple Pay just kept failing for no specified reasons

00:58:51 ◼   ► so I had to enter a credit card and everything.

00:58:52 ◼   ► And it was just, I had an account,

00:58:54 ◼   ► I had to sign in all this crap,

00:58:56 ◼   ► again, all to park at a parking meter

00:58:58 ◼   ► that used to take quarters until a few weeks ago.

00:59:00 ◼   ► So, (laughs)

00:59:03 ◼   ► I would go to the bank and get rolls of quarters

00:59:05 ◼   ► every few months, 'cause it was just easier

00:59:07 ◼   ► than dealing with all these crappy apps.

00:59:11 ◼   ► But yeah, so in an ideal world,

00:59:13 ◼   ► when everyone makes amazing apps

00:59:15 ◼   ► that take advantage of all the Apple's latest technologies

00:59:17 ◼   ► and they actually try to collect

00:59:18 ◼   ► as little information from you as possible,

00:59:20 ◼   ► and they don't want you to create an account,

00:59:21 ◼   ► they don't want to market to you,

00:59:22 ◼   ► and they actually just want things to go quickly,

00:59:24 ◼   ► this will be great.

00:59:25 ◼   ► I hope that world someday exists, today it doesn't.

00:59:28 ◼   ► - There were a couple of interesting things said,

00:59:30 ◼   ► one in the State of the Union,

00:59:30 ◼   ► and one, I believe, in the keynote.

00:59:32 ◼   ► In the keynote, they basically said, in so many words,

00:59:35 ◼   ► that a single entity like Yelp could make branded app clips

00:59:40 ◼   ► for many, many, many, many different restaurants,

00:59:43 ◼   ► which, didn't they go through this big,

00:59:46 ◼   ► what sort of movie for this, this big exodus,

00:59:50 ◼   ► they caused a big exodus of people and developers

00:59:53 ◼   ► who just spit out a zillion copies

00:59:56 ◼   ► of what are effectively the same app.

00:59:58 ◼   ► Several years ago, I thought they really cracked down on that

01:00:00 ◼   ► and now they're basically saying,

01:00:01 ◼   ► "Hey, have fun, do that again."

01:00:02 ◼   ► - Well, I think the way they worded it,

01:00:05 ◼   ► it sounded like they would let Yelp do it

01:00:07 ◼   ► and possibly other partners,

01:00:09 ◼   ► but it didn't sound like anybody

01:00:11 ◼   ► would be able to vend multi-business clips.

01:00:14 ◼   ► It sounded like it was only a thing

01:00:15 ◼   ► that some people would get to do, like Yelp.

01:00:17 ◼   ► - That's not surprising.

01:00:18 ◼   ► And the other thing that was said

01:00:19 ◼   ► during the State of the Union,

01:00:20 ◼   ► it was not mentioned during the keynote,

01:00:21 ◼   ► but I thought it was a very clever solution

01:00:23 ◼   ► to what could be an annoying problem,

01:00:25 ◼   ► is that if I understood it correctly,

01:00:28 ◼   ► all clips get what's called

01:00:31 ◼   ► ephemeral notifications permissions.

01:00:34 ◼   ► So when you use an app clip,

01:00:37 ◼   ► you are automatically giving that app clip

01:00:40 ◼   ► the ability to send you push notifications for eight hours.

01:00:42 ◼   ► And then at the end of those eight hours,

01:00:44 ◼   ► it's automatically revoked

01:00:45 ◼   ► and it can't send you push notifications anymore,

01:00:48 ◼   ► which I thought was really clever

01:00:49 ◼   ► because something like a parking app,

01:00:51 ◼   ► which I cannot agree with you more,

01:00:53 ◼   ► I don't live in a very urban area,

01:00:54 ◼   ► so I almost never run into this,

01:00:55 ◼   ► but the couple of occasions I've gone to places

01:00:58 ◼   ► that do use these things,

01:00:59 ◼   ► it is the most frustrating thing in the world

01:01:00 ◼   ► to have to download the app

01:01:02 ◼   ► and do that whole dance that you described.

01:01:04 ◼   ► But anyways, if you have one of these parking apps

01:01:06 ◼   ► and your time is about to expire,

01:01:08 ◼   ► you're gonna wanna get a push notification saying,

01:01:10 ◼   ► "Holy crap, go get your car."

01:01:11 ◼   ► And so having these clips

01:01:14 ◼   ► have this short-lived notification access,

01:01:17 ◼   ► I think is really smart.

01:01:17 ◼   ► You don't have like a Catalina/Vista style,

01:01:21 ◼   ► "Would you like to give this app permission

01:01:22 ◼   ► to notify you at some point?"

01:01:24 ◼   ► It's just given implicitly.

01:01:27 ◼   ► I do wanna know,

01:01:29 ◼   ► and I'm curious to hear preferably via Twitter

01:01:31 ◼   ► because I don't need a thousand of these same emails,

01:01:33 ◼   ► but for those who do use Android phones,

01:01:35 ◼   ► have you seen slices or whatever the Android equivalent is,

01:01:38 ◼   ► have you seen that be used frequently?

01:01:41 ◼   ► Or was that the,

01:01:43 ◼   ► it was announced a couple of years ago

01:01:44 ◼   ► and did it just flash in the pan and then go away?

01:01:46 ◼   ► I'm very curious if those actually took off

01:01:48 ◼   ► 'cause that's basically our future in a nutshell.

01:01:51 ◼   ► - I was also thinking too,

01:01:53 ◼   ► I hope there's ways that other apps

01:01:56 ◼   ► can use these for good use.

01:01:57 ◼   ► Like I was thinking, 'cause one thing App Clips does,

01:02:00 ◼   ► not only is it useful in the real world,

01:02:02 ◼   ► but it also says you can launch it from Safari,

01:02:04 ◼   ► Messages, stuff like that.

01:02:06 ◼   ► And so I was curious to see if maybe this could be

01:02:10 ◼   ► something like if I could use it as a share link previewer.

01:02:13 ◼   ► So like if Overcast could have a clip

01:02:16 ◼   ► that could play any share link in a really nice way.

01:02:19 ◼   ► But I guess it's-- - Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:02:21 ◼   ► - I suppose I'm supposed to use Messages apps for that,

01:02:24 ◼   ► right, are those still a thing?

01:02:25 ◼   ► I guess those are still a thing.

01:02:27 ◼   ► But I don't know, I'm interested to see

01:02:29 ◼   ► beyond the obvious things of parking meters,

01:02:32 ◼   ► what else can you do with this feature?

01:02:34 ◼   ► 'Cause it is pretty cool.

01:02:35 ◼   ► And again, the parking meter industry

01:02:38 ◼   ► might be very slow to adopt it,

01:02:40 ◼   ► so I'm curious to see what more creative people

01:02:42 ◼   ► can do with it.

01:02:43 ◼   ► - Yeah, and it's very general purpose.

01:02:45 ◼   ► Like if you look at how it's done,

01:02:46 ◼   ► you make an app clip target,

01:02:47 ◼   ► it's as far as I can tell essentially arbitrary code

01:02:50 ◼   ► within the limits of the available APIs and space,

01:02:53 ◼   ► again, 10 megabytes maximum size.

01:02:55 ◼   ► The notification thing is great, like you said, Casey,

01:02:57 ◼   ► because the whole point of this experience

01:02:59 ◼   ► is not to have to have a million steps.

01:03:02 ◼   ► And so even just asking if we can do notifications

01:03:04 ◼   ► is just one extra step that would make it more of a hassle.

01:03:07 ◼   ► But I do worry about giving any kind of application

01:03:10 ◼   ► implicit permission to give you notifications,

01:03:13 ◼   ► even if it's only for eight hours,

01:03:14 ◼   ► just because it seems like there's potential for abuse

01:03:18 ◼   ► in once, again, Yelp, I don't wanna pick on Yelp,

01:03:21 ◼   ► but a lot of people have some complaints about them.

01:03:23 ◼   ► Once they get in there, for that as eight hours,

01:03:25 ◼   ► they're spamming you with things and making money

01:03:27 ◼   ► by being able to spam you with notifications

01:03:29 ◼   ► that you couldn't stop, because I'm sure you can stop them

01:03:32 ◼   ► if you turn them off somewhere,

01:03:33 ◼   ► but people won't know how to do that.

01:03:35 ◼   ► Anyway, I hope it all works out.

01:03:38 ◼   ► It sounds like a good plan.

01:03:39 ◼   ► It's a feature that the iPhone should have,

01:03:41 ◼   ► because Android's had it forever.

01:03:43 ◼   ► And I hope we can live in a world where parking

01:03:47 ◼   ► gets closer to the role of quarter, a seize of use.

01:03:50 ◼   ► - Real-time follow-up from the chat room,

01:03:52 ◼   ► the handful of Android users that are in there

01:03:54 ◼   ► saying that slices is not a thing as far as they're aware.

01:03:57 ◼   ► Not to say that it literally isn't a thing,

01:03:59 ◼   ► but I mean by that is they don't see slices

01:04:01 ◼   ► in the real world very often.

01:04:03 ◼   ► Or if they do, it's used in some other context,

01:04:04 ◼   ► like you were alluding to, Marco,

01:04:06 ◼   ► that they weren't aware that it was a slice

01:04:07 ◼   ► in the first place.

01:04:09 ◼   ► Moving on, emoji search is apparently going to be a thing

01:04:12 ◼   ► at least on iPad, which is very exciting.

01:04:14 ◼   ► I didn't see any demo of this, I don't think.

01:04:16 ◼   ► I don't know if I just looked away in the half second

01:04:18 ◼   ► that they showed it, but I'm excited that it's at least

01:04:22 ◼   ► theoretically going to be a thing now, because it should be.

01:04:25 ◼   ► - Yeah, I've got that info secondhand too, Marco.

01:04:27 ◼   ► Do you remember it firsthand?

01:04:28 ◼   ► Are we in the chat room, are we making this up?

01:04:29 ◼   ► Emoji search is there, right?

01:04:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, I haven't actually seen it yet.

01:04:33 ◼   ► - It's on iPhone only, not an iPad.

01:04:35 ◼   ► - Oh! - Let me see.

01:04:36 ◼   ► I have it installed.

01:04:37 ◼   ► By the way, I guess this is me admitting,

01:04:40 ◼   ► I've installed beta one on everything

01:04:41 ◼   ► except my main computer.

01:04:43 ◼   ► - Your main computer?

01:04:45 ◼   ► What are you talking about? - Why?

01:04:47 ◼   ► - So, bear with me here.

01:04:49 ◼   ► Oh yeah, here it is, search emoji.

01:04:50 ◼   ► Yep, it's here.

01:04:51 ◼   ► All right, so. - On which device?

01:04:52 ◼   ► - On iPhone with iOS 14.

01:04:54 ◼   ► - But you put iOS 14 on your carry phone?

01:04:58 ◼   ► Are you, do you hate yourself?

01:05:01 ◼   ► Do you like being miserable?

01:05:03 ◼   ► - You've got a vacation brain.

01:05:04 ◼   ► - So here's the thing. - Oh my God.

01:05:06 ◼   ► - Here's the thing, yeah.

01:05:07 ◼   ► I'm at the beach for a while.

01:05:09 ◼   ► - See, I called it. - Right?

01:05:10 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:05:12 ◼   ► - It's an excuse for everything.

01:05:13 ◼   ► Listen, I'm at the beach.

01:05:14 ◼   ► - That's so true, so true. - Explain.

01:05:17 ◼   ► Normally, when the beta one comes out, I am traveling.

01:05:22 ◼   ► 'Cause we're at WBC and we have this busy week

01:05:26 ◼   ► full of all this travel and lots of mobile use

01:05:29 ◼   ► and it's critical that your phone works

01:05:31 ◼   ► while you're traveling and everything.

01:05:32 ◼   ► Right now, I'm just sitting here.

01:05:34 ◼   ► I'm doing very little that requires

01:05:38 ◼   ► my phone to work perfectly.

01:05:40 ◼   ► And I wanted, first of all, Apple's been very aggressive

01:05:45 ◼   ► in recent years about the public beta time

01:05:47 ◼   ► and I wanted to make sure that Overcast worked

01:05:51 ◼   ► with the beta as soon as possible.

01:05:53 ◼   ► The very first thing I did when the beta booted up

01:05:55 ◼   ► earlier today was launch Overcast and start playing around

01:05:57 ◼   ► and just make sure it all works.

01:05:59 ◼   ► Because I know that in, they said quote July

01:06:03 ◼   ► is when the public betas will happen,

01:06:04 ◼   ► including watchOS for the first time ever.

01:06:07 ◼   ► So that could mean two weeks from now.

01:06:10 ◼   ► This could be really soon.

01:06:12 ◼   ► Beta two could be the first public beta.

01:06:15 ◼   ► So I really wanna make sure that I have time on it

01:06:19 ◼   ► before that happens so I can know

01:06:21 ◼   ► whether there's gonna be problems.

01:06:22 ◼   ► Because no matter what people think people should do,

01:06:26 ◼   ► people will put beta, the first public beta,

01:06:28 ◼   ► they will put that on their carry phones

01:06:29 ◼   ► and they will run my app and if it breaks,

01:06:32 ◼   ► they will complain to me and make bad reviews

01:06:34 ◼   ► as opposed to just saying oh it's the beta,

01:06:35 ◼   ► it's my fault, right?

01:06:36 ◼   ► So I need to know that pretty soon.

01:06:38 ◼   ► But yeah, it's mostly because I'm not traveling right now

01:06:40 ◼   ► and I'm not gonna travel for the foreseeable future

01:06:43 ◼   ► because everything.

01:06:44 ◼   ► So it made sense for me, like I wanna dive in head first,

01:06:48 ◼   ► I wanna get going on this, so might as well.

01:06:50 ◼   ► So I put the beta on all of my devices

01:06:53 ◼   ► that I don't necessarily need to function perfectly,

01:06:56 ◼   ► which is everything except my iMac.

01:06:57 ◼   ► So I have it on my 16 inch, iPad Pro, watch and phone.

01:07:02 ◼   ► - You mean like the Xcode beta is what you're talking about.

01:07:04 ◼   ► I was gonna confuse when you're saying you installed

01:07:06 ◼   ► an iOS beta on your Macs.

01:07:07 ◼   ► Like you just made the Xcode, the SDK and everything right?

01:07:10 ◼   ► - And I also, I'm trying to install Big Sur on my 16 inch.

01:07:14 ◼   ► It actually hasn't completed yet and I think it failed,

01:07:16 ◼   ► I have to try it again.

01:07:18 ◼   ► - Equal accent on both syllables I'm gonna say.

01:07:20 ◼   ► - Big Sur?

01:07:22 ◼   ► - Big Sur.

01:07:22 ◼   ► - Big Sur.

01:07:23 ◼   ► - Not Big Sur, not Big Sur.

01:07:25 ◼   ► - Big Sur?

01:07:27 ◼   ► Oh my God, please stop. - Big Sur.

01:07:28 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:07:29 ◼   ► When someone in the presentation said fast company,

01:07:31 ◼   ► I thought the same thing.

01:07:32 ◼   ► He said it like the British would say Top Gear.

01:07:34 ◼   ► He said, fast company, Top Gear.

01:07:36 ◼   ► No, it's fast company, equal emphasis on both syllables.

01:07:39 ◼   ► Top Gear, the way we say it in America.

01:07:41 ◼   ► Anyway.

01:07:42 ◼   ► - So what is the OS supposed to be?

01:07:45 ◼   ► - I think it's Big Sur.

01:07:47 ◼   ► I'm not from there but that's how I would say it.

01:07:49 ◼   ► - You accented the second,

01:07:49 ◼   ► you accented Sir more than the Big there.

01:07:51 ◼   ► - Big Sur, it's equal.

01:07:53 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:07:53 ◼   ► - Every time you said it, it's different.

01:07:56 ◼   ► - Let me give you the two ways, ready?

01:07:57 ◼   ► Big Sur, that's accent on the first one.

01:08:00 ◼   ► Big Sur, accent on the second one.

01:08:02 ◼   ► And Big Sur, equal accent.

01:08:04 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:08:04 ◼   ► It's not equal. - Am I drunk?

01:08:05 ◼   ► What is happening?

01:08:07 ◼   ► And how did I say it?

01:08:08 ◼   ► - You said Big Sur.

01:08:09 ◼   ► - Big Sur. - Like Top Gear.

01:08:10 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:08:12 ◼   ► - We gagged.

01:08:13 ◼   ► - We're not saying Big Sur on this program

01:08:16 ◼   ► unless someone from California tells us

01:08:17 ◼   ► that's how we're supposed to say it.

01:08:18 ◼   ► - This is how it sounds.

01:08:19 ◼   ► We're not gonna say Big Sur, we're gonna say Big Sur.

01:08:21 ◼   ► - Us mispronouncing the name of Mac OS

01:08:23 ◼   ► really says until someone from California

01:08:25 ◼   ► tells us how we're supposed to say it

01:08:26 ◼   ► is part of the experience of Mac OS releases.

01:08:30 ◼   ► - Did you know it's actually called Bondi Beach?

01:08:32 ◼   ► Moving on, so Scribble gets pencil dragged to select text.

01:08:35 ◼   ► - Wait, wait, wait, no, you skipped over Emoji Search.

01:08:37 ◼   ► We got off of this big tangent.

01:08:39 ◼   ► Emoji Search, I feel like there should be

01:08:41 ◼   ► a business tell-all book to explain

01:08:43 ◼   ► why it has taken so long to get an Emoji Search.

01:08:45 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:08:46 ◼   ► This is a major institutional failing of Apple as a company.

01:08:51 ◼   ► It's not a complicated feature.

01:08:53 ◼   ► Everybody needs it.

01:08:55 ◼   ► How long have we all spent scrolling horizontally

01:08:58 ◼   ► through that list trying to find the stupid emoji

01:09:01 ◼   ► with the zipper on the mouth

01:09:02 ◼   ► and there's a million yellow circles and you can't find it.

01:09:05 ◼   ► Emoji Search, why did this take so long?

01:09:09 ◼   ► Not everyone is like Casey who has memorized

01:09:11 ◼   ► the entire grid of umpteen emoji

01:09:13 ◼   ► and knows exactly where it is.

01:09:15 ◼   ► We're all scrolling forever.

01:09:17 ◼   ► What happened?

01:09:18 ◼   ► It doesn't matter now, we've got it now.

01:09:20 ◼   ► It's like, all right, fine, but what happened?

01:09:22 ◼   ► This should be a case study.

01:09:23 ◼   ► Someone from Harvard Business School will look into this.

01:09:25 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:09:27 ◼   ► You can totally ignore the butterfly keyboard era.

01:09:30 ◼   ► Skip all that if you wanna know

01:09:31 ◼   ► why there was no Emoji Search.

01:09:33 ◼   ► We just don't know what happened with Emoji Search.

01:09:35 ◼   ► It makes no sense.

01:09:36 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:09:38 ◼   ► It's such an easy feature.

01:09:39 ◼   ► - Now all kidding aside, is it not on iPad?

01:09:42 ◼   ► Marco, do you have your iPad nearby?

01:09:43 ◼   ► What is the situation on iPad?

01:09:44 ◼   ► - I think it's iPhone only according to the chat room,

01:09:47 ◼   ► which is always right.

01:09:47 ◼   ► - Why?

01:09:48 ◼   ► - I mean, that'll be part of the case study, presumably.

01:09:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, seriously, Harvard Business School,

01:09:53 ◼   ► let's get a report on that.

01:09:54 ◼   ► - As far as I can tell, there's a lot of stuff

01:09:56 ◼   ► that's in iOS 14 that is not in iPad OS,

01:10:00 ◼   ► and the explanation is they didn't get around

01:10:04 ◼   ► to doing it on iPad OS.

01:10:05 ◼   ► In terms of prioritizing, you can imagine

01:10:07 ◼   ► why they would prioritize iOS before it.

01:10:09 ◼   ► Historically, there have been many times

01:10:11 ◼   ► where a feature appears on iOS,

01:10:13 ◼   ► back when it was both on the iPhone and the iPad,

01:10:15 ◼   ► only on the phone and on the iPad.

01:10:17 ◼   ► Those priorities make some sense to me.

01:10:19 ◼   ► Again, you know, emoji search should have been on both devices

01:10:21 ◼   ► years ago, but I think there are similar limitations

01:10:24 ◼   ► in some other features that are available on iOS 14

01:10:27 ◼   ► that are not yet available on iPad OS.

01:10:29 ◼   ► So I'm sure they'll catch up eventually.

01:10:32 ◼   ► - I can verify it is not on iPad.

01:10:34 ◼   ► - Oh, okay, I was just gonna say,

01:10:35 ◼   ► I'm hearing conflicting reports about that,

01:10:37 ◼   ► but if you're saying it's not there, then it's not there.

01:10:39 ◼   ► - I mean, it wouldn't surprise me

01:10:40 ◼   ► if it popped in in a future beta, too.

01:10:41 ◼   ► That's the kind of thing that,

01:10:42 ◼   ► maybe it didn't make beta one.

01:10:44 ◼   ► - That's also true.

01:10:45 ◼   ► Now you did the, what is it, control,

01:10:47 ◼   ► how do I say it, John?

01:10:48 ◼   ► Oh God, I'm gonna get in trouble.

01:10:50 ◼   ► Command, control, space, is that right?

01:10:52 ◼   ► Not control, command, space?

01:10:53 ◼   ► - It's control, delete.

01:10:54 ◼   ► - Command, control, delete.

01:10:56 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:10:57 ◼   ► - Anyway, did you try that three finger gesture, Marco,

01:11:00 ◼   ► on the iPad?

01:11:01 ◼   ► You didn't hit the little globe, you did control.

01:11:03 ◼   ► - Oh no, hold on.

01:11:04 ◼   ► I hit the little globe.

01:11:05 ◼   ► Oh, face ID, microphone's blocking it, hold on.

01:11:08 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:11:10 ◼   ► All right, so I'm gonna hit, so let's see,

01:11:12 ◼   ► command, space, bring it, wait,

01:11:13 ◼   ► command, space is regular.

01:11:14 ◼   ► - Command, control, space,

01:11:15 ◼   ► to bring up the special character thingy.

01:11:17 ◼   ► - Command, control, space, special character thingy,

01:11:20 ◼   ► there is no search box here.

01:11:21 ◼   ► - Huh, okay.

01:11:22 ◼   ► - It is just a little hover over emoji blob.

01:11:25 ◼   ► - Okay, thank you for trying.

01:11:26 ◼   ► Also in the bucket of real time follow up,

01:11:28 ◼   ► Jason Snell, who knows a little bit about California,

01:11:30 ◼   ► says that it is never big sir, it's big sir.

01:11:34 ◼   ► - Yeah, equal emphasis.

01:11:35 ◼   ► - Big sir.

01:11:36 ◼   ► - No, equal, equal emphasis on both.

01:11:38 ◼   ► I would say the same way we say top gear,

01:11:40 ◼   ► but you don't say it that way, we all say top gear,

01:11:42 ◼   ► because we watch the British show and that's ruined us for it.

01:11:45 ◼   ► - See, I'm not sure that I can trust the Californians,

01:11:47 ◼   ► because they also all told us, including Jason,

01:11:49 ◼   ► back in the Mojave times that it was Mojave, not Mojave.

01:11:52 ◼   ► But then like half the year, everybody was saying Mojave,

01:11:55 ◼   ► including some people from California.

01:11:56 ◼   ► - But they were doing it wrong, it is Mojave, he was right.

01:12:00 ◼   ► - But it seems like Californians can't even agree

01:12:02 ◼   ► on their own pronunciations,

01:12:03 ◼   ► 'cause like other Californians were saying Mojave,

01:12:05 ◼   ► other Californians were saying Mojave.

01:12:07 ◼   ► - They're not California natives, they're transplants.

01:12:10 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:12:12 ◼   ► - Oh my goodness, moving on.

01:12:14 ◼   ► All right, so we've got Scribble, which is what,

01:12:17 ◼   ► Inkwell or whatever, or what was the thing in Newton that--

01:12:19 ◼   ► - It's Transcriber from Windows Mobile.

01:12:21 ◼   ► - Oh my goodness. - From 2002.

01:12:23 ◼   ► - Newton did it first, speaking of Opera, yes.

01:12:25 ◼   ► It's yet more features of Newton finding their way

01:12:28 ◼   ► to the iPad, which is great.

01:12:30 ◼   ► Like, you know, it's taken long enough,

01:12:32 ◼   ► but it's definitely great.

01:12:33 ◼   ► Handwriting recognition came, now you can use

01:12:35 ◼   ► your Apple Pencil to enter text into text fields

01:12:38 ◼   ► without tapping the little thing on the keyboard

01:12:40 ◼   ► that comes up, right?

01:12:42 ◼   ► So that's great, and also the drawing,

01:12:44 ◼   ► turning your shapes into perfect shapes.

01:12:46 ◼   ► I remember that being demoed on the Newton in 1990 Mumble.

01:12:50 ◼   ► Here it is on modern iOS devices, and it looks pretty good.

01:12:55 ◼   ► I'll have to try it in the Notes app,

01:12:56 ◼   ► because the Akili heals of all these kind of,

01:12:59 ◼   ► do handwriting and will recognize it and turn it into text

01:13:04 ◼   ► and do drawings and will recognize it and turn it into shapes

01:13:07 ◼   ► is like, you want it to be flexible after that, right?

01:13:11 ◼   ► So they did some demos, like, look, I can swipe select text,

01:13:14 ◼   ► which is a new feature with the Pencil, and move it around,

01:13:16 ◼   ► because I know that it's text and stuff like that.

01:13:19 ◼   ► But, you know, they drew like a pentagon,

01:13:22 ◼   ► and they drew in a line, you know,

01:13:24 ◼   ► that turned into a line with arrow ends.

01:13:25 ◼   ► What if you want to make that line with arrow ends shorter?

01:13:27 ◼   ► How easy is that to do?

01:13:28 ◼   ► Can I grab it, is it a vector that I can shorten it?

01:13:30 ◼   ► Do I erase it with an eraser tool

01:13:31 ◼   ► and squish the two ends together?

01:13:33 ◼   ► Like, stuff like that tends to fall apart

01:13:35 ◼   ► unless there's some, there's considerable effort

01:13:37 ◼   ► put into making it flexible.

01:13:38 ◼   ► So I hope that all works out, you know,

01:13:42 ◼   ► as I imagined in my opinion,

01:13:43 ◼   ► isn't just like a sort of write once, edit never interface.

01:13:47 ◼   ► But yeah, I bet Pencil users love this,

01:13:50 ◼   ► because there's nothing worse

01:13:51 ◼   ► than having that software keyboard come up

01:13:52 ◼   ► and pecking away at it with your Pencil tip.

01:13:54 ◼   ► If you can just write into a text field, that'll be awesome.

01:13:57 ◼   ► - Yeah, this is a great feature.

01:14:00 ◼   ► I don't think I will personally use it,

01:14:01 ◼   ► 'cause I'm not much of a hand writer,

01:14:03 ◼   ► but it's just really cool for even people like me,

01:14:05 ◼   ► for like the twice a year that we might want to use it.

01:14:08 ◼   ► And then for people who do kind of, you know,

01:14:09 ◼   ► hand write natively and prefer that as an input mechanism,

01:14:13 ◼   ► this is great for them, because you know,

01:14:15 ◼   ► you can just hand write everywhere,

01:14:16 ◼   ► and it just kind of works.

01:14:17 ◼   ► I too, when you were describing

01:14:19 ◼   ► the handwriting improvements and stuff,

01:14:22 ◼   ► I was also hoping for a little bit more dynamic movement

01:14:26 ◼   ► of what you wrote after you wrote it

01:14:27 ◼   ► in like the big handwriting views.

01:14:29 ◼   ► Maybe that's somewhere they can go in the future,

01:14:31 ◼   ► but it does seem, it seemed kind of like

01:14:33 ◼   ► their main innovation here was in recognition

01:14:36 ◼   ► and in the ability to select and like move it

01:14:40 ◼   ► as an image almost, but not to like reflow the text

01:14:44 ◼   ► or make the shapes dynamic and stuff like that.

01:14:47 ◼   ► So maybe we'll get that down the road.

01:14:49 ◼   ► - Yeah, I'm really excited to try this out.

01:14:51 ◼   ► It looks, I agree with you Marco,

01:14:52 ◼   ► I don't see myself using it often,

01:14:53 ◼   ► but I do think it's a really cool feature,

01:14:54 ◼   ► especially for RSI, it might be nice too

01:14:57 ◼   ► that you're not sitting there typing,

01:14:59 ◼   ► you can be writing, which is super cool.

01:15:01 ◼   ► I felt briefly bad for a friend of the show,

01:15:04 ◼   ► Steve Trouton Smith, because his new app,

01:15:06 ◼   ► is it Pastel, is that right?

01:15:08 ◼   ► - Yep. - Is that right?

01:15:09 ◼   ► I think that's right.

01:15:10 ◼   ► Pastel has been Sherlocked, although he seemed

01:15:11 ◼   ► actually fairly excited about it, which was good,

01:15:13 ◼   ► because if he's not sad, then I'm not sad,

01:15:15 ◼   ► because there's a new system-wide color picker on iPad

01:15:19 ◼   ► and maybe iPhone, I'm not sure, but it's certainly on iPad,

01:15:23 ◼   ► and that's basically what Pastel does,

01:15:25 ◼   ► is try to be a system-wide, as much as he can,

01:15:27 ◼   ► a system-wide color picker.

01:15:28 ◼   ► - It's not just a new one, this never existed before,

01:15:30 ◼   ► as far as I'm aware, so this is a color picker on iOS.

01:15:32 ◼   ► - Yeah, true, yeah, yeah.

01:15:34 ◼   ► - Which is convenient to have for sharing colors

01:15:36 ◼   ► between apps, which is exactly what his app does,

01:15:37 ◼   ► so he was basically Sherlocked, but that happens.

01:15:41 ◼   ► If you're gonna make any kind of app

01:15:42 ◼   ► that extends the system in any way,

01:15:43 ◼   ► chances are good that Apple added sooner rather than later.

01:15:46 ◼   ► He ran into Sooner.

01:15:48 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:15:49 ◼   ► - It's very true.

01:15:50 ◼   ► - 'Cause I think he just released Pastel

01:15:51 ◼   ► a few weeks ago, so it's like, ooh, that's tough,

01:15:53 ◼   ► but what can you do?

01:15:55 ◼   ► - And then it's in here in the next spot in the notes,

01:15:58 ◼   ► so we'll talk about it now.

01:15:59 ◼   ► I don't think it was actually brought up

01:16:00 ◼   ► until the State of the Union,

01:16:02 ◼   ► but possibly my favorite feature from this entire day,

01:16:06 ◼   ► and I'm saying that--

01:16:07 ◼   ► - That's why I put it in here,

01:16:08 ◼   ► 'cause I think it's a big feature for developers.

01:16:10 ◼   ► - Yep, and I say that with only a modicum of hyperbole.

01:16:13 ◼   ► Local store kit testing, praise be to the gods.

01:16:18 ◼   ► My dreams have come true.

01:16:21 ◼   ► I cannot believe it is happening.

01:16:23 ◼   ► So what does this mean if you're not an iOS developer?

01:16:25 ◼   ► So when you're writing iOS apps, in all likelihood,

01:16:28 ◼   ► you're going to be doing some sort of subscription

01:16:30 ◼   ► or in-app purchase or something like that,

01:16:31 ◼   ► and those APIs are, I find them to be challenging

01:16:36 ◼   ► in a lot of ways, and testing them particularly

01:16:38 ◼   ► is very frustrating, and it's always been frustrating.

01:16:41 ◼   ► And when I started really doing this professionally,

01:16:43 ◼   ► in the IAP stuff professionally,

01:16:46 ◼   ► it had gotten a lot better to test.

01:16:48 ◼   ► Like, I know, Marco, you have probably war stories

01:16:51 ◼   ► from now until the end of time to tell about this,

01:16:54 ◼   ► but one way or another, what this allows you to do is,

01:16:57 ◼   ► and they only showed it very briefly,

01:16:59 ◼   ► but from what I can put together,

01:17:00 ◼   ► you can basically approve or deny or change the state

01:17:06 ◼   ► of a store kit, like an IAP purchase, when you're testing.

01:17:10 ◼   ► So you can pretend like you're just buying

01:17:12 ◼   ► this in-app purchase or perhaps a subscription,

01:17:15 ◼   ► and then you can act as though you're Apple and say,

01:17:17 ◼   ► "No, the card was declined," or, "Yes, it went through,"

01:17:20 ◼   ► or, "Maybe the store is down entirely,"

01:17:23 ◼   ► or something like that to help test all these scenarios,

01:17:25 ◼   ► which is extremely hard to do today.

01:17:27 ◼   ► I am genuinely incredibly excited for this,

01:17:30 ◼   ► and if I'm incredibly excited for this,

01:17:31 ◼   ► and I've only been doing this for a couple years,

01:17:33 ◼   ► I cannot fathom how excited you are, Marco.

01:17:35 ◼   ► - Oh my God, yeah.

01:17:36 ◼   ► I mean, it's funny, when you implement App Store payments,

01:17:41 ◼   ► if you've ever implemented anything else,

01:17:44 ◼   ► especially if you've ever used,

01:17:45 ◼   ► as I mentioned a couple episodes ago,

01:17:47 ◼   ► if you've ever used Stripe, Stripe is awesome,

01:17:50 ◼   ► for lots of reasons, in particular,

01:17:51 ◼   ► because when you're implementing their payments,

01:17:53 ◼   ► they give you a whole bunch of different test accounts,

01:17:56 ◼   ► test credit card numbers you can use and stuff like that,

01:17:58 ◼   ► so you can test all sorts of different conditions.

01:18:00 ◼   ► They have a whole testing environment.

01:18:01 ◼   ► It's very, very nice and easy to use.

01:18:04 ◼   ► The App Store payment system is not.

01:18:08 ◼   ► And the nicest thing I can say about it

01:18:11 ◼   ► is that it has been extremely painful

01:18:14 ◼   ► to develop against overtime, to test with.

01:18:18 ◼   ► It's incredibly clunky and very hard

01:18:20 ◼   ► to test certain conditions.

01:18:22 ◼   ► A lot of the testing stack was buggy.

01:18:24 ◼   ► A lot of the store kits cited on iOS,

01:18:26 ◼   ► you'd have to have a whole dedicated device

01:18:28 ◼   ► just to be signed into a developer,

01:18:30 ◼   ► or just to be signed into a Sandbox account,

01:18:32 ◼   ► because if you used your actual phone,

01:18:34 ◼   ► it would screw it up so often in ways

01:18:36 ◼   ► that you'd be getting Sandbox password pop-ups

01:18:39 ◼   ► for the rest of eternity until you did a full restore.

01:18:42 ◼   ► There were so many problems overtime

01:18:43 ◼   ► with testing in-app purchase.

01:18:45 ◼   ► Our friend Brent Simmons wrote a good article

01:18:49 ◼   ► a few days ago about, during the App Store brew-ha-ha,

01:18:51 ◼   ► basically saying originally when apps were either free

01:18:55 ◼   ► or paid upfront, it was super easy to collect money,

01:18:58 ◼   ► 'cause from the app, you didn't have to do anything.

01:19:01 ◼   ► You could set a flag in iTunes Connect

01:19:03 ◼   ► to say, "All right, my app costs five bucks,"

01:19:05 ◼   ► and it would handle it all for you.

01:19:06 ◼   ► And as we move to the area of in-app purchase,

01:19:09 ◼   ► and the whole era of that being the primary way

01:19:12 ◼   ► that developers collect money,

01:19:13 ◼   ► as opposed to a purchase upfront,

01:19:17 ◼   ► we lost all that simplicity.

01:19:20 ◼   ► Implementing in-app purchase is way more complicated

01:19:23 ◼   ► and very error-prone.

01:19:25 ◼   ► As we moved into subscriptions in recent years,

01:19:27 ◼   ► that's even more complicated and even more error-prone.

01:19:30 ◼   ► And so the importance of testing has only gone up,

01:19:33 ◼   ► and so it really is nice to have something like this

01:19:36 ◼   ► that is, I haven't had time to play with it yet,

01:19:38 ◼   ► but it is most likely going to be a big improvement

01:19:40 ◼   ► in testability for developing purchase flow

01:19:44 ◼   ► and your in-app purchase handling and everything.

01:19:46 ◼   ► And that was just so badly needed,

01:19:48 ◼   ► and it will be so helpful to so many developers,

01:19:50 ◼   ► so I'm very glad to see this.

01:19:52 ◼   ► We are sponsored this week by ExpressVPN.

01:19:56 ◼   ► Now that a lot of you are working from home,

01:19:58 ◼   ► it's even more important to choose a VPN

01:20:00 ◼   ► that you can trust.

01:20:02 ◼   ► ExpressVPN doesn't log your data.

01:20:04 ◼   ► A lot of other really cheap or free VPNs

01:20:06 ◼   ► make money by selling your data to ad companies.

01:20:09 ◼   ► ExpressVPN developed a technology called Trusted Server

01:20:12 ◼   ► that makes it impossible for their servers

01:20:13 ◼   ► to log any of your info.

01:20:15 ◼   ► And also VPNs usually come with performance problems.

01:20:18 ◼   ► Many of them slow your connection down

01:20:20 ◼   ► or make your device sluggish.

01:20:21 ◼   ► ExpressVPN always has fast internet speeds.

01:20:25 ◼   ► You can even do things like stream HD quality videos

01:20:28 ◼   ► with no noticeable lag.

01:20:30 ◼   ► And I've personally done that.

01:20:31 ◼   ► When I was on vacation about earlier this winter,

01:20:34 ◼   ► back when vacation was a thing,

01:20:35 ◼   ► I was out of the country and I was using

01:20:37 ◼   ► my ExpressVPN connection to stream

01:20:39 ◼   ► my US video service account.

01:20:42 ◼   ► And it was totally lag free.

01:20:44 ◼   ► I couldn't even tell I was going through a VPN.

01:20:45 ◼   ► Like full quality with the video, it was amazing.

01:20:49 ◼   ► And unlike other VPNs, you don't have to set any settings up

01:20:51 ◼   ► or program anything.

01:20:52 ◼   ► You just fire up the super easy ExpressVPN app

01:20:55 ◼   ► and click one button to connect.

01:20:57 ◼   ► It's so easy, anybody can use it.

01:21:00 ◼   ► Wired, CNET, The Verge, and many other tech journals

01:21:02 ◼   ► rate ExpressVPN the number one VPN in the world.

01:21:05 ◼   ► So protect yourself with ExpressVPN.

01:21:08 ◼   ► Go to expressvpn.com/atp today

01:21:11 ◼   ► and get an extra three months free on a one year package.

01:21:14 ◼   ► That's expressvpn.com/atp.

01:21:17 ◼   ► Once again, visit expressvpn.com/atp to learn more.

01:21:21 ◼   ► Thank you so much to ExpressVPN for sponsoring our show.

01:21:24 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

01:21:28 ◼   ► - I think we have to go through the iPadOS, WatchOS,

01:21:30 ◼   ► and there's other things fairly quickly

01:21:32 ◼   ► to get to the big stuff 'cause we're going kind of long here.

01:21:34 ◼   ► - Well let's just blow by, yeah, right?

01:21:37 ◼   ► Let's just blow by all that, I'm not even kidding.

01:21:39 ◼   ► Let's just blow by it, let's just go to the back.

01:21:39 ◼   ► - I think we should imagine stuff in iPad, but we can,

01:21:42 ◼   ► I think we can get through them fast

01:21:43 ◼   ► by just hitting these quick bullet points.

01:21:44 ◼   ► You want me to do it?

01:21:45 ◼   ► I can do it fast.

01:21:46 ◼   ► - Yeah, you go ahead and we'll see how long the two of us

01:21:48 ◼   ► can wait before we interrupt you, go ahead.

01:21:51 ◼   ► - You're gonna get to say anything?

01:21:52 ◼   ► But if you want it to go fast, you can't.

01:21:54 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:21:56 ◼   ► Yeah, here we go.

01:21:57 ◼   ► iPadOS, we just mentioned that there are some things

01:22:01 ◼   ► that are on iOS 14 that are not in the new iPadOS.

01:22:04 ◼   ► It seems to lag behind a little bit,

01:22:05 ◼   ► but the headlining features that were talked about

01:22:07 ◼   ► are things that are unique to iPadOS.

01:22:09 ◼   ► They basically try to enhance the interface

01:22:12 ◼   ► in ways that make sense on a larger screen.

01:22:13 ◼   ► So they touted the new set of sidebars,

01:22:16 ◼   ► a lot of interfaces that used to be toolbars

01:22:17 ◼   ► are graduating to full-fledged sidebars

01:22:19 ◼   ► because why wouldn't they?

01:22:20 ◼   ► iPads are huge, there's plenty of room for it,

01:22:22 ◼   ► it's more convenient.

01:22:24 ◼   ► Same thing with the top bars.

01:22:27 ◼   ► They're not calling it a menu bar,

01:22:29 ◼   ► but it has drop-down menus on it, kind of,

01:22:31 ◼   ► but it's also kind of a toolbar.

01:22:32 ◼   ► Anyway.

01:22:33 ◼   ► - They're very menu-like toolbars.

01:22:34 ◼   ► - Yeah, features that previously,

01:22:37 ◼   ► I think we had talked about in some shows,

01:22:38 ◼   ► like, oh, I didn't even know in the Files app

01:22:39 ◼   ► you could change the list to you

01:22:40 ◼   ► because you had to swipe down from the top

01:22:42 ◼   ► to get some kind of thing to get it.

01:22:43 ◼   ► Now it's much more obvious there's actual visual element

01:22:45 ◼   ► on the screen that you can poke with your finger

01:22:47 ◼   ► and guess what, a drop-down menu comes down from it

01:22:49 ◼   ► and you can pick it.

01:22:50 ◼   ► These are all worthwhile enhancements

01:22:54 ◼   ► to make the interface more,

01:22:56 ◼   ► I was gonna say more Mac-like,

01:22:57 ◼   ► but more flexible, more feature-rich.

01:22:59 ◼   ► They also improved their version of Spotlight

01:23:01 ◼   ► with the search thing that has better search results in it.

01:23:04 ◼   ► It gets all the other features that we talked about from iOS

01:23:06 ◼   ► with the compact notifications and stuff,

01:23:09 ◼   ► the Scribble we already talked about,

01:23:10 ◼   ► which is their feature where you can write words

01:23:12 ◼   ► into text boxes and things like that.

01:23:14 ◼   ► Yeah, there's probably more iPadOS,

01:23:18 ◼   ► but for the sake of time,

01:23:19 ◼   ► because we gotta get to the Big Mac stuff quickly,

01:23:22 ◼   ► we'll move on from there.

01:23:23 ◼   ► WatchOS 7, I feel like they'll probably be really good

01:23:28 ◼   ► under the radar episode about this,

01:23:29 ◼   ► which I would recommend listening to,

01:23:30 ◼   ► so underscore can tell us all about it,

01:23:32 ◼   ► but the short version is SwiftUI complications.

01:23:34 ◼   ► Complications used to be very limited in what you could do.

01:23:37 ◼   ► SwiftUI gives you a lot more flexibility

01:23:39 ◼   ► and you can have more than one complication of each type,

01:23:42 ◼   ► which if you're a complication fiend,

01:23:43 ◼   ► like underscore is great news for him.

01:23:46 ◼   ► Face sharing, which we had rumored for a while back,

01:23:48 ◼   ► is if you make a really cool watch face

01:23:51 ◼   ► with just the right set of complications,

01:23:52 ◼   ► color coded and matched and customized

01:23:54 ◼   ► to look awesome on a particular face,

01:23:56 ◼   ► you can share that with somebody

01:23:57 ◼   ► and if you share it with them

01:23:58 ◼   ► and they don't have those apps installed,

01:23:59 ◼   ► it'll prompt them to install it.

01:24:01 ◼   ► I said during the keynote that the modular face,

01:24:04 ◼   ► which is like that digital time

01:24:06 ◼   ► and then these two big places for complications,

01:24:08 ◼   ► the modular face with custom third-party

01:24:12 ◼   ► SwiftUI-driven complications is as close as we've gotten

01:24:15 ◼   ► so far to third-party watch faces

01:24:17 ◼   ► because third-party developers can control

01:24:19 ◼   ► in a much more flexible way

01:24:21 ◼   ► a larger portion of that screen.

01:24:22 ◼   ► The time is still just the time

01:24:24 ◼   ► and you don't have much control over that,

01:24:25 ◼   ► but modular has big complications

01:24:27 ◼   ► and if you can really use the full power of SwiftUI

01:24:30 ◼   ► to fill that space, that'll be something.

01:24:32 ◼   ► It's not Marco's custom watch face

01:24:35 ◼   ► that's like a big circle with weird tick marks

01:24:38 ◼   ► around it and everything,

01:24:38 ◼   ► but it's progress in that direction.

01:24:41 ◼   ► Anything else I'm missing from WatchOS?

01:24:43 ◼   ► - It's making the existing restrictions a little bit nicer,

01:24:47 ◼   ► but it does not fundamentally change

01:24:50 ◼   ► almost any of the existing restrictions

01:24:52 ◼   ► with that one big exception to certain apps

01:24:55 ◼   ► of, as you said, that an app can now vend

01:24:57 ◼   ► multiple complications.

01:24:59 ◼   ► So before--

01:25:00 ◼   ► - Of the same type, of the same size class.

01:25:02 ◼   ► - Yeah, 'cause there's so many faces that have,

01:25:05 ◼   ► as you said, they have that new round complication,

01:25:08 ◼   ► that medium-sized circle,

01:25:09 ◼   ► that the info graph face has four of them or whatever

01:25:12 ◼   ► and so on, and before, an app could only say,

01:25:15 ◼   ► all right, my complication for this size is this

01:25:19 ◼   ► and that's all you would get.

01:25:21 ◼   ► And so it made it hard for apps like Underscore's WatchSmith

01:25:26 ◼   ► or apps that have really rich complication support

01:25:28 ◼   ► like Carrot Weather, where you would maybe want to have,

01:25:32 ◼   ► like suppose you use Carrot Weather,

01:25:33 ◼   ► you'd wanna use, like okay, let me put the temperature

01:25:35 ◼   ► in this circle and let me put the UV index in this circle.

01:25:39 ◼   ► And you couldn't do that before

01:25:40 ◼   ► because Carrot Weather could only say,

01:25:42 ◼   ► all right, my complication for medium circle type is this.

01:25:45 ◼   ► And now that is lifted,

01:25:47 ◼   ► so apps that wanna make rich complicated experiences

01:25:51 ◼   ► like WatchSmith or Carrot Weather or things like that,

01:25:54 ◼   ► they can now do a lot more than they could do before.

01:25:56 ◼   ► So that's really great for them.

01:25:58 ◼   ► Beyond, and using SwiftUI for complications

01:26:00 ◼   ► is also very nice.

01:26:01 ◼   ► It's probably using the exact same feature

01:26:04 ◼   ► as the widget support that we talked about earlier

01:26:05 ◼   ► where it's this kind of pre-rendered SwiftUI archive view

01:26:10 ◼   ► that it's minimal interaction

01:26:11 ◼   ► which is how complications have always been

01:26:13 ◼   ► and you have to give it this weird timeline

01:26:15 ◼   ► of values to display 'cause you're not constantly running.

01:26:19 ◼   ► Most of those restrictions were already there

01:26:21 ◼   ► and are still there.

01:26:22 ◼   ► So a lot of that on WatchOS is not gonna be a big deal.

01:26:26 ◼   ► Where WatchOS had a lot more substantial advancement

01:26:30 ◼   ► is in customer facing features.

01:26:32 ◼   ► So that includes things like the new workout types,

01:26:35 ◼   ► the pretty major feature of sleep tracking,

01:26:37 ◼   ► the kinda cool feature,

01:26:38 ◼   ► my stream cut out during the first part of it

01:26:40 ◼   ► so I missed some of it,

01:26:41 ◼   ► but the hand washing detection and guidance

01:26:42 ◼   ► seemed pretty cool, especially given the world today,

01:26:45 ◼   ► I thought that was a pretty cool feature.

01:26:47 ◼   ► I do have some questions about the workout support.

01:26:49 ◼   ► So one of the workouts I do a lot is with a trainer

01:26:53 ◼   ► and so Apple has this, you can say there's fitness,

01:26:58 ◼   ► breaking down into the warmup and cool down stretching,

01:27:04 ◼   ► core exercises, stuff like that.

01:27:06 ◼   ► Well, what if you do a workout that has multiple things?

01:27:09 ◼   ► What if you do a workout that begins with a warmup stretch

01:27:11 ◼   ► and then you do some core exercises

01:27:13 ◼   ► and then you do some jogging or something

01:27:15 ◼   ► and then you cool down with some stretches?

01:27:18 ◼   ► Do you have to do four workouts

01:27:19 ◼   ► to make that be counted properly?

01:27:21 ◼   ► - Yeah, so when I do some of the exercising

01:27:24 ◼   ► that I do at home, a lot of times some of the stuff,

01:27:28 ◼   ► like I do it against like an exercise video

01:27:29 ◼   ► and a lot of times one of the workout types

01:27:32 ◼   ► is where you do half weightlifting and half HIIT,

01:27:36 ◼   ► high intensity interval training, I think is what it's called.

01:27:39 ◼   ► Anyways, that's what I'll do is I will do one exercise

01:27:43 ◼   ► and the watch that's the weightlifting exercise

01:27:45 ◼   ► and then I'll stop that one

01:27:47 ◼   ► and then I'll do another second exercise

01:27:50 ◼   ► that is the HIIT exercise and it's very annoying.

01:27:53 ◼   ► I mean, in the grand scheme of things,

01:27:55 ◼   ► it's not that big a deal,

01:27:56 ◼   ► but every time I have to handle it that way,

01:27:57 ◼   ► I'm just like, "Ugh, man, why can't I just figure it out?

01:28:01 ◼   ► "Wouldn't that be nice?

01:28:02 ◼   ► "You can figure out dancing apparently.

01:28:03 ◼   ► "You can figure out whether you're dancing

01:28:04 ◼   ► "with just your arms or your whole body or whatever.

01:28:06 ◼   ► "Figure this out too, man, please?"

01:28:08 ◼   ► - Yeah, the sleep tracking is another thing.

01:28:11 ◼   ► Did sleep tracking already exist or has it been rumored

01:28:13 ◼   ► so long that there's another thing

01:28:14 ◼   ► that I just remember as existing but didn't?

01:28:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, it has been supported by third parties

01:28:17 ◼   ► for a number of years now,

01:28:19 ◼   ► but it was never supported by Apple.

01:28:22 ◼   ► - Yeah, so they've got that

01:28:24 ◼   ► and I think the current hardware basically supports it.

01:28:26 ◼   ► If you were, you said, "Wherever I watch a sleep,

01:28:29 ◼   ► "when does it ever charge?"

01:28:30 ◼   ► You charge it when you're taking a shower in the morning

01:28:32 ◼   ► and surprisingly, that is a viable pattern.

01:28:35 ◼   ► There's go-to-bed reminders.

01:28:37 ◼   ► Parents may think this is gonna help

01:28:39 ◼   ► their children go to bed.

01:28:40 ◼   ► I really doubt it will,

01:28:41 ◼   ► but for adults who want to brain hack themselves,

01:28:44 ◼   ► the phone can try to wind things down for you

01:28:46 ◼   ► and get you to go to sleep at a reasonable time

01:28:48 ◼   ► and hopefully the sleep tracking will let you know

01:28:49 ◼   ► whether you're getting garbage sleep or not.

01:28:51 ◼   ► Rewinding for a second for the face sharing thing,

01:28:54 ◼   ► one thing we missed was that Apple is going to curate

01:28:57 ◼   ► a collection of faces.

01:28:59 ◼   ► I think this is, it's not third-party watch faces,

01:29:03 ◼   ► but it's important because people get paralyzed by choice.

01:29:06 ◼   ► You can have a lot of different watch faces

01:29:07 ◼   ► as your starting point

01:29:08 ◼   ► and there's lots of different options for complications

01:29:10 ◼   ► and you may not really want to sit there

01:29:13 ◼   ► and mess with those things

01:29:14 ◼   ► or know what complications are available.

01:29:16 ◼   ► And so by having this basically app store for faces,

01:29:20 ◼   ► all it is is a set of configurations

01:29:21 ◼   ► and a bunch of humans will make these at Apple

01:29:25 ◼   ► that look good or tailored to particular activities

01:29:28 ◼   ► like running or sleep tracking or weather nuts or whatever.

01:29:32 ◼   ► I don't know what they're gonna have, but anyway,

01:29:34 ◼   ► it's great because if you go there

01:29:36 ◼   ► and you see a thing that you like with Apple's integration,

01:29:38 ◼   ► you can say, "I just want that watch face,"

01:29:40 ◼   ► and you'll get it on your thing.

01:29:41 ◼   ► And again, if you don't have the apps that it needs,

01:29:43 ◼   ► it will prompt you to install them.

01:29:44 ◼   ► And so even though this feature seems a little bit silly,

01:29:48 ◼   ► I think it will actually benefit

01:29:49 ◼   ► a lot of people's use of the watch

01:29:52 ◼   ► because people tend to, it's the tyranny of the default.

01:29:55 ◼   ► They just pick whatever default watch face

01:29:57 ◼   ► they find appealing and maybe customize one or two things.

01:29:59 ◼   ► And I feel like that is probably a suboptimal experience

01:30:02 ◼   ► for most people when they could be having,

01:30:04 ◼   ► A, they could have more different watch faces.

01:30:06 ◼   ► I'm not sure how many people know

01:30:07 ◼   ► that you can switch the watch faces on the fly

01:30:09 ◼   ► based on your activity.

01:30:10 ◼   ► And B, have sort of expertly built watch faces

01:30:13 ◼   ► by someone who knows how to make

01:30:14 ◼   ► an attractive, informative watch face.

01:30:16 ◼   ► And you can, of course, customize from there.

01:30:18 ◼   ► It's not like they're fixed, but I think it's pretty neat.

01:30:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's nice.

01:30:21 ◼   ► I mean, this is obviously not custom watch faces,

01:30:24 ◼   ► which is what many of us still want

01:30:26 ◼   ► and I certainly still want.

01:30:28 ◼   ► This is an okay compromise for now

01:30:33 ◼   ► to give people a little bit more variety

01:30:34 ◼   ► and to make the current faces

01:30:36 ◼   ► seem to last a little bit longer.

01:30:38 ◼   ► Ultimately, though, we still want more.

01:30:40 ◼   ► This does not remove the need for custom watch faces.

01:30:44 ◼   ► It simply extends the time beyond

01:30:46 ◼   ► which we might start complaining again.

01:30:48 ◼   ► - I'm gonna skip the App Store privacy stuff

01:30:51 ◼   ► for next week if you guys don't mind

01:30:53 ◼   ► 'cause I think it's not time pressing,

01:30:54 ◼   ► but we will talk about it next week.

01:30:57 ◼   ► A brief section on AirPods,

01:30:59 ◼   ► just because there are a few things

01:31:00 ◼   ► that are relevant to the stuff we've discussed

01:31:01 ◼   ► on the show before.

01:31:03 ◼   ► One is their 3D audio support.

01:31:05 ◼   ► I forget how they branded it,

01:31:07 ◼   ► but basically we talked-- - Spatial audio.

01:31:09 ◼   ► - Yeah, we talked about this in the context

01:31:10 ◼   ► of binaural audio and the PlayStation 5.

01:31:12 ◼   ► This is similar.

01:31:13 ◼   ► You have two things in your ears

01:31:16 ◼   ► and software magic makes it sound like

01:31:18 ◼   ► the sound is coming from different directions.

01:31:19 ◼   ► Apple's version of this seems constant-reheading on

01:31:23 ◼   ► and limited to what you'd imagine

01:31:25 ◼   ► the television and movie sound standards

01:31:27 ◼   ► like Atmos and DTS and surround sound.

01:31:30 ◼   ► It's not like the PlayStation thing

01:31:31 ◼   ► where you want 5,000 sound sources

01:31:33 ◼   ► 'cause there's no real context.

01:31:34 ◼   ► It's not gaming focus is what I'm saying.

01:31:36 ◼   ► It's for, hey, I'm watching a movie or TV show.

01:31:38 ◼   ► I have my AirPods in.

01:31:40 ◼   ► Can I give myself some rough simulation

01:31:43 ◼   ► of what it might be like to be in surround sound?

01:31:45 ◼   ► And that's what Apple's trying to do.

01:31:47 ◼   ► They didn't mention anything

01:31:48 ◼   ► about head-related transfer functions,

01:31:50 ◼   ► so I'm just presumably they're using something generic.

01:31:52 ◼   ► Because the AirPod Pros have accelerometers

01:31:55 ◼   ► and gyroscopes and stuff in them,

01:31:57 ◼   ► they can tell when you turn your head

01:31:59 ◼   ► so they can keep the audio sounding normal.

01:32:01 ◼   ► If you say you're in a movie theater,

01:32:03 ◼   ► if we were in normal time,

01:32:04 ◼   ► or in your house with surround sound,

01:32:06 ◼   ► and you've got your speakers all going off

01:32:07 ◼   ► because some movie has sound surrounding you,

01:32:09 ◼   ► if you turn your head, the sound doesn't move.

01:32:12 ◼   ► The speakers are in the same place in the theater, right?

01:32:14 ◼   ► That's what surround sound is supposed to be like.

01:32:16 ◼   ► If you hear a noise to your left and you turn to your left

01:32:18 ◼   ► and the noise comes again,

01:32:20 ◼   ► now you're facing it more and it sounds different.

01:32:22 ◼   ► But if you have headphones in,

01:32:23 ◼   ► if they didn't know when you turned your head,

01:32:25 ◼   ► it would kill the illusion because you turn your head

01:32:27 ◼   ► and now all of a sudden the sound turned with your head

01:32:29 ◼   ► and that's not what's supposed to happen.

01:32:31 ◼   ► So that's very clever and if it works well,

01:32:33 ◼   ► this'll be super cool.

01:32:34 ◼   ► I can't wait to try this except I, A,

01:32:37 ◼   ► don't have AirPods Pro and, B, I don't like them

01:32:40 ◼   ► because they go inside my little ear holes.

01:32:42 ◼   ► So I really hope someday Apple makes a non-invasive,

01:32:47 ◼   ► let's say, AirPod with these gyroscope features

01:32:53 ◼   ► 'cause I think this sounds neat.

01:32:53 ◼   ► And then finally, automatic switching.

01:32:56 ◼   ► This sounds like a dream as someone who uses AirPods

01:32:59 ◼   ► with multiple devices all the time

01:33:01 ◼   ► and is constantly going to Control Center

01:33:03 ◼   ► to switch from one device to the other.

01:33:06 ◼   ► Even though the switch is faster with the new version

01:33:08 ◼   ► of the AirPods that I have

01:33:09 ◼   ► and Control Center is not that far away,

01:33:12 ◼   ► I would just like it to magically know what I mean.

01:33:14 ◼   ► But I don't know how it's gonna know.

01:33:15 ◼   ► Like automatic switching, they describe it as,

01:33:17 ◼   ► "Yeah, it's easy, it'll just switch from device to device."

01:33:20 ◼   ► But how will it know?

01:33:21 ◼   ► Like in practice, my phone and my iPad

01:33:23 ◼   ► are both on my nightstand.

01:33:24 ◼   ► How is it gonna know?

01:33:25 ◼   ► I guess it's whichever device I'm using.

01:33:27 ◼   ► I have medium hopes for this feature.

01:33:29 ◼   ► I really want it to work by figuring out

01:33:32 ◼   ► which device I'm using and automatically connecting to it.

01:33:34 ◼   ► But connecting is still not lightning fast.

01:33:37 ◼   ► And if this thing starts getting it wrong,

01:33:38 ◼   ► I'm gonna be angry.

01:33:40 ◼   ► But the surprising amount of AirPod news

01:33:42 ◼   ► for a non-hardware-focused keynote.

01:33:45 ◼   ► - A couple of quick notes on that.

01:33:46 ◼   ► First of all, I thought it was absolutely incredible

01:33:49 ◼   ► that one of the things they said is that

01:33:51 ◼   ► by some magic, they will detect when you,

01:33:54 ◼   ► like let's say you're sitting in a chair

01:33:55 ◼   ► and you're holding your iPad in front of you.

01:33:56 ◼   ► If you twist slightly so that the iPad is to your left,

01:33:59 ◼   ► by some magic, if I understood them right,

01:34:02 ◼   ► they will detect that and change the profile of the sound

01:34:05 ◼   ► coming into your AirPod Pros to reflect the fact

01:34:08 ◼   ► that the screen is now a little bit left of center,

01:34:10 ◼   ► which I thought was phenomenal.

01:34:12 ◼   ► - They even said if you're on a bus,

01:34:14 ◼   ► they'll figure out, oh, the bus is turning,

01:34:17 ◼   ► but don't shift the sound because you're in the bus

01:34:20 ◼   ► and you're stationary, like they're using GPS

01:34:22 ◼   ► and other things to try, I mean, this is a use case.

01:34:23 ◼   ► - I don't think, no, I think it was all accelerometer-based.

01:34:26 ◼   ► The idea there was like, it's not GPS or anything,

01:34:29 ◼   ► it's saying like, you know, they had to distinguish

01:34:30 ◼   ► between you're in a moving vehicle,

01:34:33 ◼   ► which generates a certain type of accelerometer input,

01:34:36 ◼   ► or you are actually physically moving the device.

01:34:38 ◼   ► It's like basically velocity versus acceleration,

01:34:40 ◼   ► it's a whole thing.

01:34:41 ◼   ► - But the phone has a GPS in it.

01:34:43 ◼   ► They're not using the phone's GPS at all to figure that out?

01:34:46 ◼   ► 'Cause I imagine they could, you know what I mean?

01:34:47 ◼   ► Like you're not, like the AirPods don't exist in isolation.

01:34:49 ◼   ► You're watching something on a phone or an iPad,

01:34:51 ◼   ► but you might have GPS, anyway.

01:34:52 ◼   ► - No, I'm pretty sure it's a combination of the gyroscope

01:34:54 ◼   ► and the accelerometer, it lets them do that without GPS.

01:34:57 ◼   ► - Yeah, maybe, but anyway, it's a use case

01:34:59 ◼   ► that the PlayStation does not have to deal with,

01:35:01 ◼   ► because if you're using a PlayStation on a bus,

01:35:04 ◼   ► you are a rarity, like it is not the Nintendo Switch, right?

01:35:07 ◼   ► So, interesting problem and interesting solution,

01:35:11 ◼   ► and I really hope they pulled it off,

01:35:13 ◼   ► because it'll be super cool if they did.

01:35:15 ◼   ► - Another quick note, I genuinely thought

01:35:17 ◼   ► that the automatic switching was there

01:35:20 ◼   ► since the original AirPods.

01:35:21 ◼   ► I am clearly wrong, I'm not trying to say that I'm right,

01:35:24 ◼   ► but I really thought, somehow it got in my brain

01:35:27 ◼   ► that that was automatic, and I feel much better now

01:35:29 ◼   ► knowing that it never used to be automatic,

01:35:31 ◼   ► because it never worked for crap,

01:35:33 ◼   ► and so now I understand why.

01:35:34 ◼   ► I made up the fact, John style, apparently,

01:35:37 ◼   ► I made up that feature, and it never ever existed

01:35:39 ◼   ► until just today.

01:35:40 ◼   ► - Well, it actually, for me, it has been slightly automatic

01:35:43 ◼   ► sometimes between the phone and the watch.

01:35:46 ◼   ► That's the only pairing that was kind of automatic,

01:35:48 ◼   ► and the reason why might be a hint

01:35:50 ◼   ► as to how they're doing this, that basically,

01:35:53 ◼   ► when you, like, you gotta figure,

01:35:55 ◼   ► like how are they gonna distinguish

01:35:56 ◼   ► between which app it's using?

01:35:58 ◼   ► Suppose if you are, like, holding your iPhone

01:36:00 ◼   ► and tapping out a message while you're on your Mac,

01:36:03 ◼   ► you know, while you're sitting at your Mac,

01:36:04 ◼   ► and you don't want what you're playing on your Mac

01:36:06 ◼   ► to all of a sudden pause and switch to your iPhone,

01:36:08 ◼   ► there are ways they can do this

01:36:09 ◼   ► with the way audio sessions work.

01:36:11 ◼   ► So the way that whenever you, as an app,

01:36:14 ◼   ► start playing audio back, for whatever reason,

01:36:16 ◼   ► somebody hits play or whatever, you start playing audio.

01:36:19 ◼   ► To do that, you first make a call to AV audio session

01:36:22 ◼   ► to activate your session, and then that, you know,

01:36:25 ◼   ► configures the hardware and everything,

01:36:26 ◼   ► and then, and that's also the same place

01:36:28 ◼   ► you tell the system whether, like,

01:36:30 ◼   ► are you spoken word content,

01:36:31 ◼   ► should you play in the background or not, et cetera,

01:36:34 ◼   ► and then you start playing audio.

01:36:36 ◼   ► So one thing they could do is merely use, like,

01:36:39 ◼   ► whoever last started the most recent audio session,

01:36:42 ◼   ► whatever device started that,

01:36:44 ◼   ► that's the current active device.

01:36:45 ◼   ► So that is almost certainly how it's always worked

01:36:49 ◼   ► between the phone and the watch,

01:36:50 ◼   ► and so this could just be them extending that same logic

01:36:53 ◼   ► to Macs and phones and iPads and everything,

01:36:55 ◼   ► and like, you know, to all that automatic switching as well.

01:36:57 ◼   ► So whatever, my guess, I haven't tried this yet,

01:37:00 ◼   ► but whatever device that you play audio from most recently,

01:37:05 ◼   ► that will be the device that switches to.

01:37:07 ◼   ► - All right, let's talk about Big Sur.

01:37:09 ◼   ► - Big Sur.

01:37:10 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:37:11 ◼   ► Oh, you guys need practice.

01:37:12 ◼   ► - Did I just do it?

01:37:14 ◼   ► - You need to make it.

01:37:15 ◼   ► Big Sur.

01:37:16 ◼   ► It's not Big Sur, it's Big Sur.

01:37:18 ◼   ► - Sur big?

01:37:18 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:37:19 ◼   ► You guys are very bad at this.

01:37:21 ◼   ► Okay, well, just, we can call it Mac OSB.

01:37:25 ◼   ► - Yes.

01:37:26 ◼   ► - There we go.

01:37:27 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:37:27 ◼   ► - We can all agree on that.

01:37:28 ◼   ► - Well, no, I don't think we can agree on that.

01:37:30 ◼   ► All right, so let's start with,

01:37:32 ◼   ► before we get into the hardware side of this,

01:37:35 ◼   ► is just do the software.

01:37:36 ◼   ► Mac OS Big Sur looks, has a new look,

01:37:40 ◼   ► which happens every couple years in Mac OS

01:37:45 ◼   ► if you're new to the modern Mac operating system.

01:37:48 ◼   ► They change the look to varying degrees,

01:37:50 ◼   ► usually on a multi-year interval.

01:37:52 ◼   ► This is the biggest change in the look of Mac OS,

01:37:57 ◼   ► probably since they went unlikable

01:37:59 ◼   ► and got rid of the pinstripes.

01:38:00 ◼   ► I feel like that is the only other comparable change,

01:38:02 ◼   ► maybe the biggest change that they've ever made

01:38:05 ◼   ► to the look of the modern Mac OS.

01:38:09 ◼   ► And I tweeted when this was going on,

01:38:12 ◼   ► this is kind of the Mac's iOS 7 moment.

01:38:16 ◼   ► For people who don't remember,

01:38:17 ◼   ► iOS 7 was when the previously very sort of

01:38:20 ◼   ► 3D shiny photo real UI of iOS

01:38:24 ◼   ► switched to a very flat minimalist interface

01:38:27 ◼   ► when Johnny Ive took over the software team.

01:38:30 ◼   ► And it was very extreme and very different

01:38:32 ◼   ► from what came before it,

01:38:33 ◼   ► and very upsetting to some people.

01:38:35 ◼   ► And then in the years that followed,

01:38:37 ◼   ► iOS 7's look was pulled back from those extremes

01:38:39 ◼   ► and made more moderate.

01:38:40 ◼   ► Hopefully Apple has learned from that.

01:38:42 ◼   ► But if you look at screenshots of Big Sur,

01:38:44 ◼   ► it looks different.

01:38:48 ◼   ► You're not gonna confuse it for a Catalina Mac, I think.

01:38:53 ◼   ► And it leans on not just more minimalism,

01:38:57 ◼   ► but even more transparency,

01:38:59 ◼   ► even more compressing of elements.

01:39:01 ◼   ► I don't know how, before I try to characterize it,

01:39:05 ◼   ► because then we're gonna just go look at the screenshots,

01:39:06 ◼   ► Margot seemed the most upset about it,

01:39:08 ◼   ► so I wanna give him time to tell us

01:39:10 ◼   ► why he hates the new look.

01:39:11 ◼   ► - I'm not sure whether I'm going to hate it yet,

01:39:15 ◼   ► but it is, I have to live with it.

01:39:17 ◼   ► That's another reason why I put it on my laptop,

01:39:19 ◼   ► or I'm trying to put it on my laptop if it ever completes,

01:39:21 ◼   ► because I do want to spend time with it

01:39:24 ◼   ► before I say for sure that I hate it.

01:39:26 ◼   ► But certainly on first look, I'm really hesitant.

01:39:29 ◼   ► I'm skeptical about it, because frankly,

01:39:33 ◼   ► I don't like Alan Dye's style as a UI designer.

01:39:36 ◼   ► Alan Dye was also the designer of iOS 7.

01:39:38 ◼   ► He's been the UI designer since Johnny Iov

01:39:40 ◼   ► was put in charge of everything.

01:39:41 ◼   ► And Johnny Iov left, Alan Dye didn't.

01:39:43 ◼   ► He is still the designer there,

01:39:46 ◼   ► and he has a habit of designing things like Johnny

01:39:49 ◼   ► to look really good,

01:39:52 ◼   ► but often at the expense of functionality.

01:39:54 ◼   ► And so for a UI, that can be things like contrast,

01:39:57 ◼   ► legibility, discoverability,

01:40:01 ◼   ► having control look like controls, things like that.

01:40:03 ◼   ► And a lot of times, I think his style of design,

01:40:06 ◼   ► or at least I don't know if he's personally doing all this,

01:40:08 ◼   ► but the era of design under him,

01:40:10 ◼   ► it really fails in those ways.

01:40:13 ◼   ► It hides things.

01:40:15 ◼   ► One of the things I hate is that in the Catalina version

01:40:19 ◼   ► of the music app, and this continues into the BS version.

01:40:22 ◼   ► In the Catalina version,

01:40:24 ◼   ► it used to be that when you're playing a song,

01:40:29 ◼   ► it would show you the time elapsed

01:40:31 ◼   ► on one side of the now playing bar,

01:40:33 ◼   ► and it would show you the time remaining

01:40:34 ◼   ► on the other side of the now playing bar.

01:40:36 ◼   ► And granted, I listen to songs from bands

01:40:40 ◼   ► where the duration of the song can vary a lot,

01:40:42 ◼   ► maybe you could say.

01:40:44 ◼   ► And so I am often looking at the time in a song,

01:40:48 ◼   ► and maybe they assume that everyone listens to pop music,

01:40:51 ◼   ► where every song is three minutes long,

01:40:52 ◼   ► and you say, "You don't need this anymore,"

01:40:53 ◼   ► but that's not true for everyone.

01:40:55 ◼   ► And in the Catalina version of the music app,

01:40:59 ◼   ► those time durations fade out

01:41:02 ◼   ► when you're not hovering over it.

01:41:03 ◼   ► So most of the time you look at it,

01:41:05 ◼   ► and it's just this big empty square showing title,

01:41:07 ◼   ► but no time, and you hover over it, and the time appears,

01:41:10 ◼   ► and the time is really tiny.

01:41:12 ◼   ► These really little tiny times in the corner,

01:41:15 ◼   ► in the middle of this giant expanse of a window.

01:41:18 ◼   ► And so it's hiding functionality,

01:41:20 ◼   ► and he even said this in the video today,

01:41:23 ◼   ► about something about how the controls fade away

01:41:26 ◼   ► so that you can focus on your content,

01:41:28 ◼   ► and that's one of his critical design principles.

01:41:30 ◼   ► And I hate this principle because it's so overused.

01:41:33 ◼   ► It is junk drawer theory of design.

01:41:35 ◼   ► It is just hide things, and that is always better.

01:41:38 ◼   ► But no, hiding things isn't always better.

01:41:40 ◼   ► And in this case, in the case of my music app nitpick here

01:41:44 ◼   ► with the time elapsed and time remaining labels,

01:41:47 ◼   ► like you're on a Mac, you have space.

01:41:49 ◼   ► It was always there before,

01:41:51 ◼   ► ever since the dawn of MP3 players,

01:41:53 ◼   ► and no one had a problem with that.

01:41:55 ◼   ► It's not like, what are you gaining

01:41:56 ◼   ► by hiding the time playing in a music app

01:42:00 ◼   ► on a now playing screen that has tons of space?

01:42:02 ◼   ► You're not gaining anything,

01:42:03 ◼   ► you're just hiding it for the sake of minimalism,

01:42:04 ◼   ► for its own sake, and assuming that's better.

01:42:07 ◼   ► And now people who actually use that information

01:42:10 ◼   ► or want to see that information, it's now harder to get.

01:42:13 ◼   ► Now you have to hover over it to see it,

01:42:15 ◼   ► and then it just vanishes for no reason.

01:42:17 ◼   ► And I'm afraid of that aesthetic

01:42:19 ◼   ► expanding to the degree that it has expanded in Big Sur.

01:42:24 ◼   ► It really does seem like that is now so dominant,

01:42:28 ◼   ► so entrenched in their design philosophy and their actions,

01:42:32 ◼   ► that, and Mac OS has been doing this slowly over time,

01:42:35 ◼   ► things like scroll bars disappearing and stuff like that.

01:42:37 ◼   ► Like, we've been heading on this path for a little while,

01:42:40 ◼   ► but I worry that we've now gone really far

01:42:43 ◼   ► in that direction, where now so much is hidden

01:42:46 ◼   ► behind hover states and just hidden

01:42:49 ◼   ► for the sake of being hidden.

01:42:50 ◼   ► And it's now going to be, I think, even harder to tell.

01:42:54 ◼   ► Like, what is a control?

01:42:56 ◼   ► What is active?

01:42:57 ◼   ► Like, when I saw, they showed a few screenshots and stuff

01:43:02 ◼   ► of apps like Mail, where you have a big tool bar

01:43:04 ◼   ► across the top with a whole bunch of buttons.

01:43:06 ◼   ► And when I saw those, it just looked like a visual mess

01:43:10 ◼   ► to me, like not having any more structure to the icon bars,

01:43:15 ◼   ► having a lot of the color removed from them,

01:43:16 ◼   ► so it's just like, here's a list of monochrome icons.

01:43:19 ◼   ► It made it harder for me to see, and it looked,

01:43:22 ◼   ► it was hard to even tell, like, what is a button?

01:43:24 ◼   ► What is clickable?

01:43:25 ◼   ► Wickshooter's icons are showing me status

01:43:27 ◼   ► versus Wickshooter actually behaving as buttons.

01:43:30 ◼   ► I worry that we've taken a really big step backwards here.

01:43:33 ◼   ► But all that said, I do wanna actually use it

01:43:37 ◼   ► before I really judge it further.

01:43:38 ◼   ► But right now, I don't feel good about it

01:43:41 ◼   ► upon first glance.

01:43:44 ◼   ► - You can see where, what the appeal is

01:43:47 ◼   ► to a certain kind of designer to this type of interface.

01:43:50 ◼   ► So using SF symbols, the font,

01:43:53 ◼   ► with a bunch of vector drawings for a bunch of stuff,

01:43:55 ◼   ► having configurable accent colors to each app,

01:43:59 ◼   ► if you choose to be in multicolor mode,

01:44:01 ◼   ► can have its own highlights.

01:44:02 ◼   ► Like, if you're on the Mac now,

01:44:04 ◼   ► you can choose what your accent color is

01:44:05 ◼   ► for your operating system.

01:44:07 ◼   ► It defaults to, like, bluish.

01:44:09 ◼   ► You can also say multicolor in Big Sur,

01:44:11 ◼   ► and that will let individual apps

01:44:13 ◼   ► have a different accent color.

01:44:14 ◼   ► So notes could be yellow, and mail could be blue,

01:44:16 ◼   ► and so on, if you want that.

01:44:18 ◼   ► But the whole idea is, you design the app,

01:44:22 ◼   ► and you specify, this is a sidebar, this is the icon,

01:44:25 ◼   ► this is the text, this is a toolbar, here are the icons,

01:44:28 ◼   ► and that a system like this allows all those things

01:44:31 ◼   ► to be flexible.

01:44:32 ◼   ► Accent color is flexible 'cause they're all template images.

01:44:34 ◼   ► They're scalable 'cause they're vector

01:44:36 ◼   ► 'cause they all come from a font.

01:44:37 ◼   ► You are sort of just telling me the what,

01:44:39 ◼   ► and the OS is determining the how,

01:44:41 ◼   ► and that gives you, as a designer,

01:44:43 ◼   ► a lot of flexibility to change the way things look

01:44:46 ◼   ► and to have the UI be more flexible

01:44:48 ◼   ► than, for example, the hand-drawn, pixel-perfect,

01:44:50 ◼   ► you know, old days of the old iOS,

01:44:52 ◼   ► where it was very inflexible and almost like an old game UI

01:44:55 ◼   ► where it was just like a bunch of raster graphics,

01:44:56 ◼   ► and if the whole OS changes, look,

01:44:58 ◼   ► you have these other apps that were, like,

01:45:00 ◼   ► made in the days before the OS changes, look,

01:45:02 ◼   ► and they didn't fit in, this avoids that.

01:45:04 ◼   ► That said, I agree with all the things,

01:45:06 ◼   ► all the criticisms Marco had about this UI,

01:45:08 ◼   ► and in fact, many of them are not new.

01:45:10 ◼   ► Many of them are the same exact criticisms we had

01:45:12 ◼   ► for the first version of iOS 7,

01:45:14 ◼   ► not legible, controls didn't look like controls,

01:45:17 ◼   ► you know, low contrast, stuff like that,

01:45:19 ◼   ► and in fact, some of these complaints that I would add

01:45:21 ◼   ► are the same ones that I had, personally,

01:45:24 ◼   ► in 2007 for things like Leopard.

01:45:26 ◼   ► Leopard introduced a translucent menu bar.

01:45:28 ◼   ► I couldn't believe when Craig Federighi said,

01:45:30 ◼   ► you know, they're adding translucent menu bar.

01:45:33 ◼   ► It's on our Macs right now.

01:45:34 ◼   ► If you're running Catalina, look at your menu bar.

01:45:36 ◼   ► It is somewhat translucent.

01:45:38 ◼   ► In Leopard, when this was first introduced in the betas,

01:45:41 ◼   ► it was super translucent, like,

01:45:43 ◼   ► it was practically like a sheet of glass,

01:45:44 ◼   ► a sheet of frosted glass.

01:45:46 ◼   ► They backed off of that, and when they shipped Leopard,

01:45:49 ◼   ► it was less translucent, and there was, like,

01:45:51 ◼   ► a P-list hack to override it to make it opaque again,

01:45:53 ◼   ► and I had this big rant about it around the Leopard thing.

01:45:56 ◼   ► Basically, the gist of it was that when Apple introduced

01:45:59 ◼   ► translucency in Mac OS X,

01:46:02 ◼   ► the idea was to use it for transient elements,

01:46:04 ◼   ► so like when a sheet came down,

01:46:05 ◼   ► it was translucent to show it was impermanent,

01:46:07 ◼   ► like you're going to address this dialogue and dismiss it,

01:46:10 ◼   ► that the transparency had a message, you know,

01:46:13 ◼   ► this is, you know, permanent UI is solid,

01:46:15 ◼   ► transient UI is translucent.

01:46:17 ◼   ► That was the sort of thing they were going for.

01:46:19 ◼   ► Then they made the menu bar translucent,

01:46:21 ◼   ► and the menu bar is, or was at the time,

01:46:23 ◼   ► arguably the most permanent fixture on the entire screen.

01:46:26 ◼   ► It could not be hidden unless an app was in full screen mode.

01:46:29 ◼   ► I know that's not true now,

01:46:29 ◼   ► because you can automatically hide it, but anyway.

01:46:31 ◼   ► The new menu bar in Big Sur is even more translucent

01:46:36 ◼   ► than the one they chickened out of shipping in Leopard,

01:46:40 ◼   ► and to the detriment, I think, of legibility and contrast.

01:46:44 ◼   ► If you look at some of these screenshots,

01:46:46 ◼   ► the contrast is bad.

01:46:48 ◼   ► The legibility is bad.

01:46:49 ◼   ► It is difficult to tell what's a button.

01:46:51 ◼   ► The advantage of this design language

01:46:53 ◼   ► is all the accessibility features that exist,

01:46:55 ◼   ► and I think people forget this

01:46:56 ◼   ► if they don't realize that thing is there.

01:46:58 ◼   ► All those accessibility features are easier to implement,

01:47:01 ◼   ► because you can crank up the contrast and the size

01:47:03 ◼   ► in a flexible way that doesn't break the UI,

01:47:06 ◼   ► because everything is sort of descriptive and simplified

01:47:09 ◼   ► and vector and able to accommodate these things,

01:47:12 ◼   ► but I think it's still a failing of the design

01:47:15 ◼   ► if most people would benefit

01:47:17 ◼   ► from going to the accessibility options.

01:47:19 ◼   ► That's not to say going to accessibility options are bad,

01:47:22 ◼   ► but the default experience should try to hit the fat part

01:47:25 ◼   ► of the bell curve of your customer base,

01:47:27 ◼   ► and I think this one does not.

01:47:28 ◼   ► I think it is not going to be obvious

01:47:31 ◼   ► to people what buttons are.

01:47:32 ◼   ► This text is gonna be harder for people to read,

01:47:35 ◼   ► and practically speaking,

01:47:36 ◼   ► I don't care that much about what's behind my windows

01:47:39 ◼   ► that I need it coming forward and impairing legibility,

01:47:42 ◼   ► and Apple has struggled with this on the Mac

01:47:43 ◼   ► for many, many years to strike the balance between,

01:47:46 ◼   ► like in Yosemite, it looks really cool

01:47:48 ◼   ► when the sideboards are translucent,

01:47:50 ◼   ► but of course, you're not actually getting

01:47:52 ◼   ► any additional information.

01:47:53 ◼   ► It's entirely an aesthetic choice,

01:47:55 ◼   ► so if that impacts legibility at all at a non-zero percent,

01:47:59 ◼   ► it's not a great trade-off.

01:48:00 ◼   ► Same thing with the menu bar.

01:48:02 ◼   ► I like that my desktop background is back there,

01:48:05 ◼   ► but I don't need to see the top centimeter of it

01:48:08 ◼   ► through my menu bar if it impairs legibility.

01:48:10 ◼   ► Like in the screenshots I showed you,

01:48:12 ◼   ► if you have a desktop background,

01:48:13 ◼   ► I guess it decides whether your menu bar

01:48:15 ◼   ► is going to have white text or black text

01:48:17 ◼   ► depending on how much it's showing through.

01:48:18 ◼   ► Like that's how much of your desktop background

01:48:20 ◼   ► shows through, that I think it inverts the text

01:48:23 ◼   ► just to make it legible.

01:48:24 ◼   ► It's not great.

01:48:26 ◼   ► So I have serious concerns about this.

01:48:29 ◼   ► It could be iOS 7 all over again

01:48:30 ◼   ► where they go extreme in the beginning

01:48:32 ◼   ► and then they tone it down.

01:48:33 ◼   ► I feel like they should just learn from this.

01:48:35 ◼   ► Like Marco said, hiding things,

01:48:38 ◼   ► like the proxy icon for documents, by the way,

01:48:41 ◼   ► maybe you don't know about this,

01:48:42 ◼   ► but the little icon on the top of document windows

01:48:43 ◼   ► that you can drag to do stuff with,

01:48:45 ◼   ► that's hidden by default.

01:48:46 ◼   ► No one was discovering that thing

01:48:48 ◼   ► when it was visible all the time

01:48:49 ◼   ► and now you're gonna hide it by default?

01:48:50 ◼   ► You could say, okay, well if no one was discovering it,

01:48:52 ◼   ► obviously it's not heavily used,

01:48:53 ◼   ► so why should it be in people's faces?

01:48:55 ◼   ► But it's a useful feature.

01:48:56 ◼   ► You should let people know that it's there more prominently

01:48:59 ◼   ► instead of just completely hiding it.

01:49:01 ◼   ► The controls fading away when you don't need them.

01:49:04 ◼   ► How do people know if they are going to need them

01:49:06 ◼   ► if they don't even recognize them as controls?

01:49:08 ◼   ► I'm also not a fan of that philosophy.

01:49:10 ◼   ► I don't think it fits the Mac.

01:49:12 ◼   ► That said, aesthetically speaking,

01:49:15 ◼   ► rounded corners on all the windows,

01:49:17 ◼   ► the general idea of using more trans-listenly,

01:49:19 ◼   ► I'm mostly on board with the aesthetics, believe it or not,

01:49:21 ◼   ► even the sort of the colors in the sidebar

01:49:23 ◼   ► and stuff like that.

01:49:24 ◼   ► I just feel like the usability,

01:49:27 ◼   ► like the can I read what's on the screen,

01:49:29 ◼   ► can I identify things,

01:49:31 ◼   ► is it clear to me what they're going to do?

01:49:33 ◼   ► You no longer have the benefit of literal decades

01:49:37 ◼   ► of use of a Mac to understand what does a dialog look like,

01:49:40 ◼   ► what does a button look like,

01:49:41 ◼   ► because they've changed all those things so much,

01:49:43 ◼   ► in fact, making them look more and more like iOS

01:49:45 ◼   ► that I think is going to be quite jarring.

01:49:46 ◼   ► Some things that I think people haven't actually realized

01:49:48 ◼   ► if they haven't gone through Apple's web pages,

01:49:50 ◼   ► things like dialog boxes have changed.

01:49:53 ◼   ► When you specify a dialog box programmatically,

01:49:55 ◼   ► for the most part, you say,

01:49:57 ◼   ► I want a dialog, here are the buttons,

01:49:58 ◼   ► here's the text on the buttons,

01:49:59 ◼   ► here's some main text, here's some other text.

01:50:02 ◼   ► You don't lay out those windows like alerts manually,

01:50:05 ◼   ► you just specify that.

01:50:06 ◼   ► So the OS has the flexibility to change them.

01:50:08 ◼   ► I don't know, have you two have looked

01:50:09 ◼   ► at what alerts look like in Big Sur?

01:50:12 ◼   ► - Oh my God, it's hideous.

01:50:14 ◼   ► - They look like iOS alerts.

01:50:16 ◼   ► - Yes, and that, to me, is one of the biggest examples

01:50:20 ◼   ► of why I think this is kind of an iffy

01:50:23 ◼   ► and possibly wrong design philosophy to take,

01:50:25 ◼   ► because one of the reasons why the new dialogs

01:50:29 ◼   ► look so jarring and I think are a little bit worse

01:50:31 ◼   ► is that they use centered text for everything,

01:50:33 ◼   ► because iOS uses centered text for its dialogs.

01:50:36 ◼   ► Centered text might look good in ideal screenshots

01:50:40 ◼   ► where the text is very short.

01:50:41 ◼   ► As soon as you have multiple lines of centered text,

01:50:43 ◼   ► it looks terrible and it's harder to read.

01:50:45 ◼   ► - Or you have a widow.

01:50:46 ◼   ► I mean, it's like I'm reading suck.com all over again.

01:50:48 ◼   ► Like this is not aesthetically pleasing.

01:50:51 ◼   ► The translucency is off the charts

01:50:53 ◼   ► and now you're gonna add the ability to have like red text

01:50:55 ◼   ► like iOS has on buttons.

01:50:58 ◼   ► It is not an upgrade for these features.

01:51:01 ◼   ► Like the good thing is, you know,

01:51:02 ◼   ► because they can change it once, they can change it back.

01:51:04 ◼   ► But like again, the history cannot be, you know,

01:51:08 ◼   ► like you may think most people have more experience

01:51:10 ◼   ► with iOS, but people aren't presented

01:51:12 ◼   ► with dialog boxes constantly in iOS.

01:51:15 ◼   ► That's just not the experience.

01:51:16 ◼   ► On the Mac, you see dialog boxes all the time.

01:51:18 ◼   ► Someone with experience on the Mac has an expectation

01:51:21 ◼   ► of what a dialog box looks like,

01:51:22 ◼   ► what it does and where the controls are.

01:51:23 ◼   ► And this is breaking all of that for a layout

01:51:26 ◼   ► that is also not aesthetically more pleasing.

01:51:28 ◼   ► So why do this at all?

01:51:30 ◼   ► It is a downgrade all around

01:51:31 ◼   ► as far as the alerts are concerned.

01:51:33 ◼   ► - Well, and I think the why do it at all,

01:51:36 ◼   ► Alan Dye answered that question,

01:51:38 ◼   ► but I think it was a bad answer.

01:51:40 ◼   ► You know, the way that this redesign was explained

01:51:44 ◼   ► for the most part, one word that came up constantly

01:51:47 ◼   ► was consistency.

01:51:49 ◼   ► And you know, consistency with iOS is the,

01:51:52 ◼   ► whether he said it or not, that's certainly the implication.

01:51:55 ◼   ► But is this design being used

01:51:58 ◼   ► because this is the great design for the Mac?

01:52:01 ◼   ► Or is this design being used

01:52:03 ◼   ► because it makes it look more like iOS?

01:52:04 ◼   ► I think he very clearly answered the latter is the case,

01:52:08 ◼   ► but because it might not be a better design for the Mac,

01:52:13 ◼   ► I think that's a crappy reason.

01:52:14 ◼   ► And I see, you know, I could see an argument,

01:52:18 ◼   ► as you said, secondly, like, you know,

01:52:20 ◼   ► yeah, a lot of people use iOS.

01:52:21 ◼   ► Yeah, you know what, a lot more people use iOS than macOS.

01:52:23 ◼   ► That is true, but the problems that, like, you know,

01:52:27 ◼   ► and the Mac can be made more usable by taking some iOSisms,

01:52:32 ◼   ► but not necessarily, like, the UI theme

01:52:34 ◼   ► doesn't have to match necessarily,

01:52:36 ◼   ► or it certainly doesn't have to match so closely.

01:52:38 ◼   ► You know, people are not idiots.

01:52:39 ◼   ► They can understand that dialog boxes look different

01:52:41 ◼   ► between platforms, and they can understand, like,

01:52:44 ◼   ► how to read two different dialog boxes.

01:52:45 ◼   ► Like, that's, the level of matching there

01:52:49 ◼   ► for the sake of matching is not necessary.

01:52:51 ◼   ► If it happens to work out that you have a good design

01:52:53 ◼   ► that is a great design on all the platforms,

01:52:56 ◼   ► then cool, use it.

01:52:57 ◼   ► But in this case, it seems like consistency

01:52:59 ◼   ► has taken significantly higher priority

01:53:02 ◼   ► than what's actually the best design for the Mac.

01:53:06 ◼   ► - Or the best design for iOS, for that matter.

01:53:07 ◼   ► I don't think these dialog boxes are good on iOS either.

01:53:09 ◼   ► Like, that's the thing that burns me.

01:53:10 ◼   ► Like, they even changed, you remember Sheets?

01:53:12 ◼   ► This was an innovation of the original Mac OS X,

01:53:14 ◼   ► where when you have a document modal thing,

01:53:16 ◼   ► where it's a thing, Windows is gonna come out on the screen,

01:53:18 ◼   ► and you can't interact anymore with that document window,

01:53:21 ◼   ► but you can use other document windows.

01:53:22 ◼   ► An example would be a save dialog.

01:53:25 ◼   ► In the old Mac, when you initiated, you know,

01:53:27 ◼   ► hit Command + S to save, it would be app modal,

01:53:29 ◼   ► and you couldn't do anything else in that app,

01:53:30 ◼   ► or for that matter, on the entire system,

01:53:32 ◼   ► until you dismiss that dialog.

01:53:33 ◼   ► But Mac OS X, you know,

01:53:34 ◼   ► 'cause it's a better, more modern multitasking

01:53:36 ◼   ► operating system, introduced the idea

01:53:38 ◼   ► that if you hit Save on a document,

01:53:40 ◼   ► a sheet will come out, sort of,

01:53:42 ◼   ► of that document's window title bar,

01:53:44 ◼   ► and that document will be like,

01:53:46 ◼   ► oh, you can't do anything with this document

01:53:47 ◼   ► until you decide to either save or cancel, right?

01:53:49 ◼   ► But other document windows,

01:53:51 ◼   ► you could continue to interact with,

01:53:52 ◼   ► and the sheet would just sit there attached to that one,

01:53:54 ◼   ► and because it came out of the title bar,

01:53:55 ◼   ► it was sort of physically attached to the window,

01:53:58 ◼   ► and you understood, yeah,

01:53:59 ◼   ► this window is busy doing a thing.

01:54:01 ◼   ► They've changed how Sheets look

01:54:03 ◼   ► to make them look more like iOS app modal dialogs,

01:54:05 ◼   ► where it fades the background,

01:54:07 ◼   ► and it shows in the center of the window.

01:54:09 ◼   ► I don't think that's an improvement

01:54:11 ◼   ► in terms of me understanding

01:54:13 ◼   ► that this is blocking the whole window,

01:54:15 ◼   ► because there are lots of things

01:54:16 ◼   ► that can present like that,

01:54:17 ◼   ► where they fade the content and show the window,

01:54:18 ◼   ► and it's not clear to me it's associated with the document,

01:54:20 ◼   ► but anyway, Sheets weren't broken.

01:54:22 ◼   ► They fixed it by making it, quote-unquote,

01:54:24 ◼   ► consistent with iOS,

01:54:25 ◼   ► but iOS doesn't have document-based apps.

01:54:27 ◼   ► Yes, it has window modal or app modal dialogs,

01:54:30 ◼   ► and that's how they present,

01:54:31 ◼   ► but this consistency is not worthwhile.

01:54:35 ◼   ► And part of the motivation to this,

01:54:37 ◼   ► and part of sort of the meta-hidden secret theme of this,

01:54:40 ◼   ► if you look at all the different screenshots,

01:54:42 ◼   ► is it's pretty clear to me now

01:54:44 ◼   ► that touch-based Macs are coming,

01:54:46 ◼   ► because every control in here that has changed in some way

01:54:50 ◼   ► is changed to make it not like,

01:54:52 ◼   ► oh, everything is a touch control,

01:54:54 ◼   ► but closer to being touch control,

01:54:56 ◼   ► so the items in the drop-down menus

01:54:58 ◼   ► are pushed a little bit farther apart.

01:54:59 ◼   ► The toolbar items are spread a little bit from each other.

01:55:02 ◼   ► These dialog boxes have a configuration

01:55:04 ◼   ► where the buttons are way bigger than they used to be,

01:55:07 ◼   ► so big, in fact,

01:55:08 ◼   ► that you can imagine choking them with your finger.

01:55:10 ◼   ► It doesn't mean that macOS is going to be a touch-based OS,

01:55:13 ◼   ► because it's not, right?

01:55:14 ◼   ► But the places where they changed it,

01:55:16 ◼   ► like that's the thing about the macOS,

01:55:18 ◼   ► like, oh, they'd have to change the whole UI

01:55:21 ◼   ► to make it work with your finger.

01:55:22 ◼   ► They don't.

01:55:23 ◼   ► They just need it for your finger to be useful in the OS.

01:55:26 ◼   ► You're never gonna use macOS just with your finger,

01:55:28 ◼   ► because you'll never be able to find

01:55:30 ◼   ► the tiny little controls in Final Cut Pro.

01:55:31 ◼   ► Like, it's not gonna happen, right?

01:55:33 ◼   ► You just need the fingers to be good for something.

01:55:35 ◼   ► So the title bars got a little bit thicker.

01:55:37 ◼   ► Look how big the title bars are in the Safari window, right?

01:55:39 ◼   ► Look how big the buttons are in here.

01:55:40 ◼   ► Why would they spread the menu items in a drop-down menu

01:55:43 ◼   ► away from each other to the degree that they did?

01:55:45 ◼   ► It's not like they suddenly introduced Max

01:55:46 ◼   ► with taller screens.

01:55:48 ◼   ► Menus aren't getting any shorter, right?

01:55:50 ◼   ► It's so that it is viable to drag a window with your finger,

01:55:54 ◼   ► to dismiss a dialog with your finger,

01:55:56 ◼   ► to tap a menu in the menu bar

01:55:58 ◼   ► and then tap a menu item with your finger, right?

01:56:00 ◼   ► If that's not why they did this in Touch Max Never Come,

01:56:03 ◼   ► I will not understand this change at all.

01:56:04 ◼   ► But right now, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt

01:56:06 ◼   ► and saying a lot of the spacing changes,

01:56:08 ◼   ► which in general, the spacing changes on their own,

01:56:10 ◼   ► I don't object to, a lot of them seem like

01:56:13 ◼   ► a clear indication that Touch Base Max are coming.

01:56:16 ◼   ► And I think that is a welcome change.

01:56:18 ◼   ► It's just the aesthetics and the layout choices

01:56:22 ◼   ► of a lot of the things they've changed

01:56:24 ◼   ► do not seem like the right move.

01:56:28 ◼   ► And somewhat related to that,

01:56:29 ◼   ► all the more in an aesthetic front

01:56:31 ◼   ► and in the consistency front,

01:56:32 ◼   ► they've decided that now a good macOS app

01:56:35 ◼   ► should have an icon that looks just like an iOS icon

01:56:37 ◼   ► with a little squircle thing.

01:56:39 ◼   ► Mac apps are allowed to have photorealistic things

01:56:42 ◼   ► apparently on top of them,

01:56:44 ◼   ► and they can break the border of the squircle,

01:56:46 ◼   ► which iOS apps can't.

01:56:47 ◼   ► That's their concession to Mac-ness.

01:56:49 ◼   ► But boy, seeing that dock at the bottom

01:56:52 ◼   ► with a big line of what for all the world

01:56:54 ◼   ► look like iOS icons with weird things floating over them

01:56:56 ◼   ► is very strange.

01:56:57 ◼   ► In the past, Apple has had lots of different

01:57:02 ◼   ► aesthetic policies, let's say,

01:57:04 ◼   ► about what Mac icons are going to look like.

01:57:06 ◼   ► And Mac developers, being the cats that they are,

01:57:10 ◼   ► have mostly refused to be herded.

01:57:12 ◼   ► Whenever I look down at my dock

01:57:16 ◼   ► over the umpteen years of using the Mac

01:57:18 ◼   ► after the Mac OS X transition,

01:57:19 ◼   ► there's always been quite a molly collection of icons.

01:57:22 ◼   ► Apple's icons tend to look consistent with each other,

01:57:24 ◼   ► and that changes over the years.

01:57:25 ◼   ► Then there's a bunch of ones that look like

01:57:27 ◼   ► they're from two generations of the OS ago,

01:57:29 ◼   ► ones that look like they were revised one generation ago.

01:57:32 ◼   ► It's always going to be a molly collection.

01:57:35 ◼   ► I kind of applaud Apple for leading by example,

01:57:39 ◼   ► showing consistent icons.

01:57:41 ◼   ► They did that in the classic Mac OS era,

01:57:42 ◼   ► in classic Mac OS.

01:57:43 ◼   ► Icons were supposed to be a diamond with a hand and a tool,

01:57:47 ◼   ► and a lot of Mac apps followed that.

01:57:49 ◼   ► There was some variation,

01:57:50 ◼   ► basically diamond shape with some variations on top of it.

01:57:53 ◼   ► There was a lot of consistency until,

01:57:55 ◼   ► in classic Mac OS, people figured out,

01:57:56 ◼   ► I can draw whatever the hell I want.

01:57:57 ◼   ► I'm going to make a big alien's face with a tongue sticking

01:57:59 ◼   ► out, and that's what they did, right?

01:58:01 ◼   ► I think that will continue to happen.

01:58:03 ◼   ► I'm not sure.

01:58:05 ◼   ► We know where this is all going.

01:58:08 ◼   ► People were putting up these snarky slides like,

01:58:09 ◼   ► "Oh, is Mac OS merging with iOS?

01:58:11 ◼   ► I thought you said it wasn't, but it looks like they are."

01:58:14 ◼   ► This is the whole subject for another show

01:58:15 ◼   ► that we don't have time to get into now,

01:58:16 ◼   ► but there is an eventual convergence of hardware

01:58:21 ◼   ► and software platforms in the Apple world.

01:58:23 ◼   ► We are edging closer towards it.

01:58:26 ◼   ► There will always be specialization,

01:58:28 ◼   ► just as there is today, between the iOS and iPad OS.

01:58:31 ◼   ► They are specialized for their devices,

01:58:33 ◼   ► and the Mac OS will continue to be specialized,

01:58:34 ◼   ► but this is the next step in that direction.

01:58:36 ◼   ► I just think, as Marco pointed out before,

01:58:38 ◼   ► and as the famous page that I put in one

01:58:41 ◼   ► of my old Mac OS X reviews pointed out,

01:58:43 ◼   ► you don't need things to look literally exactly the same

01:58:46 ◼   ► to understand what they are.

01:58:48 ◼   ► The example from the Bruce Toggazini book was extensions.

01:58:53 ◼   ► In classic Mac OS, you saw puzzle piece icons,

01:58:55 ◼   ► but there was like five different puzzle pieces,

01:58:57 ◼   ► and no one looked at them and said,

01:58:59 ◼   ► "Is that an extension?

01:59:00 ◼   ► I can't tell, because it's usually the puzzle piece

01:59:01 ◼   ► with one little prong on one side

01:59:03 ◼   ► and a hole on the other side,

01:59:04 ◼   ► but this one is a whole different,

01:59:05 ◼   ► it looks like a puzzle piece."

01:59:07 ◼   ► You can tell.

01:59:08 ◼   ► It doesn't have to be literally the same puzzle piece

01:59:10 ◼   ► for you to understand what it is.

01:59:12 ◼   ► Ditto with buttons and dialogues and windows.

01:59:15 ◼   ► As long as they look buttony enough,

01:59:18 ◼   ► as long as, you know,

01:59:18 ◼   ► it doesn't have to be literally exactly the same,

01:59:21 ◼   ► so to the degree that Apple feels like it needs to do that

01:59:24 ◼   ► for consistency and learnability,

01:59:26 ◼   ► I think they're overcompensating in that direction,

01:59:30 ◼   ► and I think they're, you know,

01:59:33 ◼   ► I applaud the direction.

01:59:34 ◼   ► I think there should be some kind of unification.

01:59:37 ◼   ► It makes sense, especially in light of the hardware changes

01:59:38 ◼   ► they're about to talk about,

01:59:39 ◼   ► but I think they are taking it too far,

01:59:43 ◼   ► they're taking it too literally right now,

01:59:44 ◼   ► and I hope they back off a little.

01:59:46 ◼   ► - You know what's funny to me?

01:59:47 ◼   ► I intellectually agree with everything you guys have said,

01:59:51 ◼   ► that a lot of these choices seem ridiculous.

01:59:53 ◼   ► It's emphasizing the wrong things.

01:59:55 ◼   ► I think it looks really good though.

01:59:57 ◼   ► The only thing that I really am annoyed by,

02:00:00 ◼   ► and I am unreasonably annoyed by this,

02:00:02 ◼   ► and I don't know why,

02:00:03 ◼   ► but when you pull down a menu in macOS right now,

02:00:08 ◼   ► the menu itself is connected to the entry in the menu bar.

02:00:12 ◼   ► So, you know, if you look at, say, Chrome,

02:00:15 ◼   ► and you look at the bookmarks menu,

02:00:17 ◼   ► the word bookmarks is connected to the items

02:00:20 ◼   ► that are below that word,

02:00:21 ◼   ► and now there's a little gap between the menu item

02:00:25 ◼   ► and the menu bar and the menu itself,

02:00:28 ◼   ► and oh my gosh, does this annoy me.

02:00:30 ◼   ► I don't know why it annoys me so much, but it does.

02:00:33 ◼   ► - The menu has rounded corners on the top,

02:00:35 ◼   ► and it is also slightly wider than the menu.

02:00:38 ◼   ► These are all just aesthetic choices

02:00:40 ◼   ► that are mostly silly or whatever,

02:00:41 ◼   ► they're like the rounded corner things.

02:00:43 ◼   ► I tweeted that I was happy that the screen image itself

02:00:46 ◼   ► does not have rounded corners,

02:00:48 ◼   ► but classic macOS used to have rounded corners

02:00:50 ◼   ► in the upper right and upper left corners.

02:00:52 ◼   ► Like, they would just black out those pixels

02:00:53 ◼   ► to make it look a little bit round.

02:00:56 ◼   ► People still keep thinking that the future Macs

02:00:59 ◼   ► will actually have rounded screens like the new iPads do,

02:01:01 ◼   ► and maybe that's gonna happen,

02:01:02 ◼   ► but it's neither here nor there.

02:01:04 ◼   ► But yeah, I see your aesthetic objection

02:01:08 ◼   ► to the disconnected menus in the rounded corners.

02:01:10 ◼   ► I think it's fine, you know, it's not that big of a deal.

02:01:14 ◼   ► The one part that I gotta kick out of

02:01:16 ◼   ► is of course the dock in Big Sur

02:01:20 ◼   ► looks a lot like of course the iPad OS dock,

02:01:25 ◼   ► and it also happens to look like Switch Glass.

02:01:27 ◼   ► I mean, there's a reason Switch Glass looks the way it does.

02:01:29 ◼   ► It's not, you know, but interestingly,

02:01:32 ◼   ► Switch Glass is going to fit in perfectly in Big Sur,

02:01:36 ◼   ► and since my corner radiuses are adjustable,

02:01:39 ◼   ► you can actually make it fit exactly if you want.

02:01:41 ◼   ► - Oh, look at you.

02:01:42 ◼   ► - Everyone buys Switch Glass,

02:01:43 ◼   ► it is perfectly made for Big Sur.

02:01:44 ◼   ► Unfortunately, my icon, well, my icon does fit in

02:01:47 ◼   ► because it is an iOS style squircle, right,

02:01:50 ◼   ► with little symbols on it,

02:01:51 ◼   ► but it's a little bit more photo real,

02:01:53 ◼   ► and it's not exactly head on,

02:01:54 ◼   ► so maybe someday I'll have to change the icon to fit in,

02:01:57 ◼   ► but maybe I won't, you know what I mean?

02:01:58 ◼   ► I'll just be one of those motley icons

02:01:59 ◼   ► that looks like it was made in previous eras

02:02:01 ◼   ► 'cause, you know, I intentionally made my icon

02:02:03 ◼   ► look slightly different than the current style

02:02:05 ◼   ► because I like the style my icon is.

02:02:07 ◼   ► It looks really cool and likable,

02:02:08 ◼   ► and you know, I might just keep it that way.

02:02:11 ◼   ► Anyway, you shouldn't really show the dock icon

02:02:13 ◼   ► in Switch Glass anyway, you should disable it.

02:02:15 ◼   ► - Wow, overall though, I do think that this looks good.

02:02:20 ◼   ► From a behavioral standpoint,

02:02:23 ◼   ► I think a lot, if not all, of the complaints

02:02:25 ◼   ► that the two of you had are completely reasonable

02:02:27 ◼   ► and will bear fruit in the sense

02:02:30 ◼   ► that we will think that these are problems.

02:02:32 ◼   ► But just looking at it with a couple of quibbles

02:02:34 ◼   ► here and there, I think it looks good,

02:02:36 ◼   ► and I can't tell you why, but I do find it

02:02:41 ◼   ► just assigned a kind of unconsciously,

02:02:43 ◼   ► subconsciously appealing, subconsciously appealing

02:02:46 ◼   ► that everything does look similar.

02:02:48 ◼   ► I agree with what you said,

02:02:49 ◼   ► that the Mac doesn't have to look like the iPad,

02:02:51 ◼   ► and if the puzzle pieces all look like puzzle pieces,

02:02:54 ◼   ► I'll understand what's going on.

02:02:55 ◼   ► But I don't know, I kind of feel like it is nice

02:02:58 ◼   ► to have what appears at a glance anyway

02:03:01 ◼   ► to be the approximately same design language

02:03:05 ◼   ► across all these disparate devices.

02:03:07 ◼   ► So it all just feels like a different version

02:03:10 ◼   ► of the same tool.

02:03:11 ◼   ► Like one of these screwdrivers is a Philips,

02:03:14 ◼   ► one is a straight, but they're still just screwdrivers.

02:03:17 ◼   ► And I do like that, having not used Big Sur yet,

02:03:21 ◼   ► having not used iOS 14 yet, I do like it.

02:03:23 ◼   ► And I think it looks very modern.

02:03:27 ◼   ► As with all new UIs, it's made the Mac I'm sitting

02:03:30 ◼   ► in front of, the software portion of the Mac

02:03:32 ◼   ► I'm sitting in front of, look old and busted,

02:03:34 ◼   ► almost immediately.

02:03:35 ◼   ► And I don't think that's a bad thing.

02:03:36 ◼   ► I think that's a good thing.

02:03:38 ◼   ► Marco, you haven't talked for a while,

02:03:39 ◼   ► so I'd like to give you a chance to make any

02:03:41 ◼   ► other final thoughts, but I think we should probably

02:03:43 ◼   ► plow forward on the new look and start talking about

02:03:45 ◼   ► some of the other features of Big Sur after Marco,

02:03:47 ◼   ► you have a chance.

02:03:49 ◼   ► - The only, I mean, I'm gonna have a lot of gripes

02:03:50 ◼   ► about the theme.

02:03:52 ◼   ► And I think, I'm glad John brought up Sheets being gone

02:03:57 ◼   ► and being replaced, these weird like just blob overlays,

02:04:00 ◼   ► 'cause I think that's a huge regression.

02:04:02 ◼   ► But ultimately, what I find concerning here

02:04:06 ◼   ► is that the Mac has not had a great few years

02:04:10 ◼   ► of software quality.

02:04:12 ◼   ► We've had a lot of really like paper cut kind of issues

02:04:15 ◼   ► with Mac OS, and that's why many of us,

02:04:19 ◼   ► including us right here last week,

02:04:20 ◼   ► were saying, boy, we just hope the Mac OS

02:04:22 ◼   ► has a quiet year of just stability improvements

02:04:25 ◼   ► and like a bug fix year, not any kind of major new features.

02:04:30 ◼   ► And instead, Apple did a system-wide redesign

02:04:33 ◼   ► that will require like all apps to be significantly redesigned

02:04:37 ◼   ► and so what this does is they have basically placed

02:04:41 ◼   ► a huge burden of like required work to keep up

02:04:46 ◼   ► with the system on all Mac developers,

02:04:49 ◼   ► including themselves, for anything like any kind

02:04:52 ◼   ► of Mac OS-related software.

02:04:54 ◼   ► Now, instead of working on quality, they and everyone else

02:04:58 ◼   ► has to first work on this new theme,

02:05:01 ◼   ► and then maybe if you have time left,

02:05:02 ◼   ► then you can work on quality.

02:05:05 ◼   ► And that's just the last thing that Mac developers

02:05:08 ◼   ► and Apple as the biggest Mac developer,

02:05:10 ◼   ► that's the last thing they needed right now.

02:05:12 ◼   ► The biggest thing they needed right now is like,

02:05:14 ◼   ► please give us a year off so we can work on quality.

02:05:17 ◼   ► And instead, they're doing a system-wide redesign.

02:05:20 ◼   ► And if you look at what happened when iOS had its,

02:05:23 ◼   ► you know, had the iOS 7 change,

02:05:26 ◼   ► so many apps had to be redesigned from scratch

02:05:29 ◼   ► to look at all correct and reasonable and good

02:05:32 ◼   ► and competitive on that platform,

02:05:35 ◼   ► that we kind of had like two or three years

02:05:37 ◼   ► of lost productivity in quality and features in iOS app

02:05:41 ◼   ► because so much effort had to be expended

02:05:44 ◼   ► to just keep up with the new direction the system

02:05:47 ◼   ► was taking in and redesign to fit the new theme.

02:05:50 ◼   ► And now, we're gonna have that same thing happen on the Mac

02:05:54 ◼   ► where that really was not a thing that we could afford to do.

02:05:58 ◼   ► Now, maybe this will all work out in the end.

02:06:01 ◼   ► You know, maybe where we're going with, you know,

02:06:04 ◼   ► the don't say ARM Macs and everything else,

02:06:07 ◼   ► and unification with iOS apps running on the Mac,

02:06:11 ◼   ► that all could be a great endgame,

02:06:13 ◼   ► but this just threw a massive cost

02:06:16 ◼   ► and a ton of instability into an ecosystem

02:06:19 ◼   ► that doesn't seem like it was ready to bear that cost.

02:06:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, I get where you're coming from,

02:06:24 ◼   ► but I think, you know, what I really wanted was

02:06:29 ◼   ► no big changes to the plumbing.

02:06:31 ◼   ► Like, from the app developers' perspective, you're right,

02:06:33 ◼   ► they're gonna burn a lot of time on this,

02:06:34 ◼   ► and that's a shame.

02:06:35 ◼   ► But if, you know, you're doing like a redesign on this

02:06:38 ◼   ► in the surface level, what I care about is like,

02:06:41 ◼   ► does the, you know, DNS responder not crash?

02:06:45 ◼   ► Does the Bluetooth stack work correctly?

02:06:47 ◼   ► Does the USB peripherals not unmount my drives?

02:06:50 ◼   ► Like, those are the things I care about,

02:06:53 ◼   ► the plumbing of the OS.

02:06:54 ◼   ► And so if this, like, if all the time they spent on this

02:06:57 ◼   ► is mostly on sort of like, you know,

02:06:59 ◼   ► obviously all the ARM stuff and Catalyst stuff,

02:07:01 ◼   ► it's sort of like surface level UI stuff,

02:07:03 ◼   ► but the teams that work on like the, you know,

02:07:07 ◼   ► like I said, the USB stack, they spent the entire release

02:07:09 ◼   ► not adding any new features and just making it work.

02:07:12 ◼   ► That's what I hope.

02:07:12 ◼   ► But my optimistic scenario is like,

02:07:14 ◼   ► this was a higher level in the stack big change.

02:07:19 ◼   ► And what I was, what I meant when we were saying like,

02:07:22 ◼   ► oh, I hope this release is just like, you know,

02:07:24 ◼   ► no new features type of thing, is that under the covers,

02:07:27 ◼   ► you don't say, yeah, we rewrote the entire

02:07:29 ◼   ► Windows server again, and we have a new DNS responder

02:07:32 ◼   ► this time, and the Bluetooth stack is all new,

02:07:35 ◼   ► 'cause that's the stuff that's burning me up.

02:07:37 ◼   ► It's not like changing the UI stuff.

02:07:39 ◼   ► In general, the UI stuff may be good, may be bad,

02:07:41 ◼   ► but it's not gonna take down your entire system.

02:07:43 ◼   ► I just need it to work fundamentally at a hardware level.

02:07:45 ◼   ► So I still have hope that that's the case.

02:07:47 ◼   ► Maybe that's also screwed up too.

02:07:48 ◼   ► Who knows?

02:07:49 ◼   ► They didn't talk about it in this release.

02:07:51 ◼   ► They certainly didn't say anything about time machine

02:07:52 ◼   ► APFS enhancements, but you know, the week is young.

02:07:55 ◼   ► So I'm, I can't remember where you're coming from,

02:07:58 ◼   ► but I'm still holding out hope.

02:07:59 ◼   ► And also in terms of burning up time with the look,

02:08:02 ◼   ► but that's part of, if you've been following Apple's APIs

02:08:04 ◼   ► and using source lists and stuff like that, like this,

02:08:06 ◼   ► yes, there are new APIs you have to adopt and stuff,

02:08:08 ◼   ► but in general, I hope Mac apps will look reasonable-ish

02:08:13 ◼   ► with minimal changes.

02:08:14 ◼   ► Like that's the beauty of their recent changes have been

02:08:17 ◼   ► that if you follow them, you don't have to redesign

02:08:20 ◼   ► your entire app every time.

02:08:21 ◼   ► Like the big iOS 7 transition is because people had

02:08:24 ◼   ► pixel perfect hand-drawn raster UIs and iOS 7 threw that

02:08:29 ◼   ► all in the garbage.

02:08:30 ◼   ► Post iOS 7, I think, you know, as the iOS 7 evolved

02:08:34 ◼   ► and the UI changed, people haven't had to throw out

02:08:36 ◼   ► everything, I think they've learned that lesson.

02:08:38 ◼   ► So like I said, the bones of this thing,

02:08:41 ◼   ► using vectors for stuff, being able to change things

02:08:44 ◼   ► like having the accessibility features be able to work well,

02:08:47 ◼   ► easily increase contrast, easily increase size,

02:08:49 ◼   ► have everything scaled to fit and everything.

02:08:51 ◼   ► The bones are good.

02:08:52 ◼   ► The individual aesthetic choices, I think a lot of them

02:08:55 ◼   ► are bad, so I have some hope that we can recover from this.

02:08:59 ◼   ► And honestly, I'm kind of a little bit with Casey

02:09:01 ◼   ► in that like as quote unquote bad as this might be

02:09:04 ◼   ► for all the reasons I outline, I am excited about

02:09:06 ◼   ► there being a new look.

02:09:07 ◼   ► I'm always excited about there being a new look.

02:09:09 ◼   ► Like it's cool to see the Mac change the way it looks.

02:09:11 ◼   ► It's just we also need it to work well, so we'll get there.

02:09:16 ◼   ► - All right, in the interest of having the show end

02:09:19 ◼   ► before next week, I'd like to speed round

02:09:22 ◼   ► the next few items.

02:09:23 ◼   ► Messages, Maps, both Catalyst.

02:09:26 ◼   ► We talked earlier about Messages supposedly getting

02:09:29 ◼   ► either near feature parity or complete feature parity

02:09:31 ◼   ► with iOS since it is Catalyst now.

02:09:33 ◼   ► That's excellent, I'm very, very excited about that.

02:09:36 ◼   ► Maps, nothing about that revved my engine in particular,

02:09:39 ◼   ► but hey, the better Maps gets, the happier I am with it.

02:09:44 ◼   ► Safari, we talked about the privacy report

02:09:46 ◼   ► and password compromise detections.

02:09:48 ◼   ► Translation will happen in Safari.

02:09:50 ◼   ► Apparently Safari extensions have been revamped

02:09:53 ◼   ► and you can even import them from Chrome

02:09:56 ◼   ► or Firefox extensions.

02:09:57 ◼   ► - Is that true?

02:09:58 ◼   ► That's a question mark.

02:09:59 ◼   ► - No, I heard them say something about,

02:10:00 ◼   ► I don't remember the exact verbiage,

02:10:02 ◼   ► but basically you can take a Chrome or Firefox extension

02:10:05 ◼   ► and use it in Safari is what I thought I had heard.

02:10:08 ◼   ► - Yeah, they described it as the Web Extensions API

02:10:11 ◼   ► and to quote, bring over extensions built

02:10:13 ◼   ► for other browsers.

02:10:15 ◼   ► I made a note to look up what the heck

02:10:16 ◼   ► that Web Essentials API is,

02:10:17 ◼   ► 'cause it made it sound like there's some kind

02:10:18 ◼   ► of standard API that I just don't know about,

02:10:20 ◼   ► but it wouldn't surprise me.

02:10:21 ◼   ► I don't know about any of this stuff.

02:10:22 ◼   ► - Yeah, and in typical Safari fashion,

02:10:24 ◼   ► you can limit it to individual websites

02:10:26 ◼   ► and limit it by time.

02:10:27 ◼   ► There's all sorts of controls on it

02:10:28 ◼   ► and it's the first time you use it.

02:10:30 ◼   ► It's all the security controls that you would expect.

02:10:32 ◼   ► Chrome has similar ones, but Apple's bringing its twist to it

02:10:35 ◼   ► so that's all good news.

02:10:37 ◼   ► Yeah, and the new version of Safari has favicons

02:10:40 ◼   ► in all the tabs, which John Gruber will love

02:10:42 ◼   ► and apparently everyone will love

02:10:44 ◼   ► 'cause the whole reason he got keyed into that story

02:10:46 ◼   ► is because people were saying the number one reason

02:10:48 ◼   ► for using Chrome instead of Safari

02:10:49 ◼   ► was because you couldn't have little icons in the tabs.

02:10:51 ◼   ► It was just text in Safari,

02:10:53 ◼   ► presumably for, again, aesthetic reasons,

02:10:55 ◼   ► you know, omitting the icons.

02:10:56 ◼   ► Well, we can't have all those weird colored icons.

02:10:58 ◼   ► They ruined the vibe of this cool gray

02:11:01 ◼   ► at one time brush metal thing

02:11:03 ◼   ► and people are like, the icons add information.

02:11:05 ◼   ► That lets me know what site it is.

02:11:06 ◼   ► You know, so Chrome had icons and Safari didn't

02:11:09 ◼   ► and Safari has finally come around on that.

02:11:11 ◼   ► So that's all good news.

02:11:12 ◼   ► And of course, Safari is super fast.

02:11:14 ◼   ► - Yeah, and to be clear, Safari did have icons

02:11:18 ◼   ► in the tabs before, but it was added fairly recently,

02:11:22 ◼   ► but it was off by default.

02:11:23 ◼   ► Now it's on by default.

02:11:24 ◼   ► - Indeed, all right.

02:11:27 ◼   ► So big news, what did Tim say something about

02:11:30 ◼   ► we're going deep into the Mac?

02:11:32 ◼   ► We are getting Apple Silicon, Silicon.

02:11:36 ◼   ► - Not Silicon.

02:11:36 ◼   ► - We're just gonna say Arm Macs.

02:11:39 ◼   ► - Every time I get that wrong.

02:11:40 ◼   ► I was trying not to say Arm Macs

02:11:41 ◼   ► 'cause they never said Arm Macs.

02:11:43 ◼   ► - We're gonna say it because that's what they are.

02:11:45 ◼   ► - Fair enough.

02:11:46 ◼   ► We are getting Apple Silicon, there we go.

02:11:49 ◼   ► We are getting Apple Silicon, we're getting Arm Macs

02:11:51 ◼   ► and apparently we're getting, or at least

02:11:54 ◼   ► as far as we can tell, at first we're getting

02:11:57 ◼   ► what is basically the same processor as in the iPad Pros.

02:12:00 ◼   ► We're getting an A12Z.

02:12:02 ◼   ► - That's just the Pentium 4.

02:12:04 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's just for the dev kit.

02:12:06 ◼   ► You know, we'll see what actually ships.

02:12:08 ◼   ► - Yeah, so what they announced is they are making

02:12:10 ◼   ► a family of SOCs, a family of system-on-a-chips for Macs

02:12:15 ◼   ► and that they didn't come right out and say this

02:12:16 ◼   ► but eventually through the accumulation of everything

02:12:18 ◼   ► they said they are Arm CPUs, surprise,

02:12:21 ◼   ► just like they are on their iOS devices

02:12:23 ◼   ► because they run the same binaries

02:12:24 ◼   ► and the A12Z is the one they're testing with, whatever.

02:12:28 ◼   ► And so the family of Mac SOCs is letting them

02:12:31 ◼   ► letting you know that not just making one of these chips,

02:12:34 ◼   ► there's going to be a family of them,

02:12:35 ◼   ► presumably from small to large,

02:12:37 ◼   ► from their weak lower powered thing to the higher power one.

02:12:40 ◼   ► They did not commit to say,

02:12:42 ◼   ► we're going to have chips that scale

02:12:43 ◼   ► from our tiniest notebook all the way up to our Mac Pro.

02:12:45 ◼   ► They did not say that.

02:12:46 ◼   ► What they did say was that this would be

02:12:49 ◼   ► a two year long transition.

02:12:51 ◼   ► Their first Arm-based Mac would ship

02:12:53 ◼   ► before the end of this year, if everything goes well.

02:12:56 ◼   ► And that they, you know, as we said in the previous shows,

02:12:59 ◼   ► trying to consult people with Intel Macs,

02:13:01 ◼   ► they will continue to make and sell

02:13:03 ◼   ► and announce new Intel-based Macs

02:13:04 ◼   ► because what do you think they're going to do,

02:13:05 ◼   ► not sell Macs for two years?

02:13:07 ◼   ► That's what they're going to do.

02:13:08 ◼   ► So they announced all of that.

02:13:09 ◼   ► Hopefully everyone who listens to the show

02:13:10 ◼   ► is already prepared for that

02:13:12 ◼   ► because that's how these transitions go.

02:13:14 ◼   ► No big surprises.

02:13:15 ◼   ► Also, if you listen to the show,

02:13:17 ◼   ► you would have heard our prediction be on the money

02:13:19 ◼   ► about the developer transition kit,

02:13:21 ◼   ► down to it being called DTK.

02:13:22 ◼   ► It's a Mac mini and inside it is the equivalent

02:13:25 ◼   ► of a Pentium 4, meaning it's a chip

02:13:27 ◼   ► that probably will never ship in an Arm-based Mac,

02:13:30 ◼   ► but it's what they've got handy right now.

02:13:32 ◼   ► So they shoved an A12Z with 16 gigs of RAM

02:13:36 ◼   ► and a 512 gigabyte SSD and quote,

02:13:38 ◼   ► a complement of Mac I/O ports.

02:13:41 ◼   ► I don't know what that means.

02:13:42 ◼   ► They later clarified what that means, by the way.

02:13:45 ◼   ► It's two USB-C, two USB-A, and HDMI and Ethernet.

02:13:50 ◼   ► I think that's it.

02:13:51 ◼   ► And so, notably absent is Thunderbolt,

02:13:54 ◼   ► which again, we talked about kind of why that might be,

02:13:57 ◼   ► but that's a topic for another day.

02:13:58 ◼   ► But basically, this does not have that.

02:14:01 ◼   ► This only has USB-C, USB-A, and HDMI and Ethernet.

02:14:08 ◼   ► And because it's an A12Z, you would imagine

02:14:10 ◼   ► that it has similar I/O capabilities to the iPad,

02:14:12 ◼   ► which has the A12Z in it, so the iPad does not,

02:14:15 ◼   ► to our knowledge, have Thunderbolt capability

02:14:16 ◼   ► and neither does this developer transition kit.

02:14:18 ◼   ► - Although interestingly, I noticed that they said,

02:14:21 ◼   ► Craig said during the presentation,

02:14:23 ◼   ► that this computer that we've been running on

02:14:25 ◼   ► is the developer transition kit.

02:14:27 ◼   ► Did he actually say it was the DTK?

02:14:30 ◼   ► - They said it was Arm.

02:14:31 ◼   ► There's lots of hand-waving about

02:14:33 ◼   ► what are these demos running on.

02:14:35 ◼   ► It was just clear that they're running on Apple Silicon.

02:14:38 ◼   ► That was usually what they said.

02:14:39 ◼   ► - It was running on a 6K XDR,

02:14:42 ◼   ► which is not driveable via USB-C,

02:14:46 ◼   ► so I'm wondering what that was about.

02:14:49 ◼   ► But yeah, I think you're right.

02:14:50 ◼   ► I think that was a technicality that this was

02:14:52 ◼   ► a Mac running Apple Silicon, but it was not the DTK.

02:14:55 ◼   ► - They were very careful.

02:14:56 ◼   ► I was watching, because before they even announced the DTK,

02:14:59 ◼   ► I was looking for a Mac Mini on their desks,

02:15:01 ◼   ► and watch where all those cords go

02:15:03 ◼   ► from those cinema display, those Pro Display XDRs.

02:15:07 ◼   ► They go somewhere, but you never see them

02:15:09 ◼   ► attached to a computer.

02:15:10 ◼   ► So there's lots of clever staging in this supposed lab,

02:15:15 ◼   ► which is really obviously like a set,

02:15:17 ◼   ► or a carefully arranged corner of the lab.

02:15:20 ◼   ► So if you want one of these developer transition kits,

02:15:25 ◼   ► you give Apple $500, they give you one of these things,

02:15:28 ◼   ► plus some exclusive access to private forums

02:15:31 ◼   ► and stuff like that, and then you have to give it

02:15:33 ◼   ► back to Apple, just like the weird Pentium 4 cheese graters.

02:15:36 ◼   ► You get a weird Mac Mini case with iPad guts inside it

02:15:40 ◼   ► with some weird IO ports, and then you give it back to Apple.

02:15:43 ◼   ► This is only if you're one of the lucky few.

02:15:44 ◼   ► There is a signup process.

02:15:46 ◼   ► There are a limited number of these things going out.

02:15:48 ◼   ► If you would like a developer transition kit,

02:15:51 ◼   ► you put your name in the hat, you write a little paragraph

02:15:53 ◼   ► of text telling Apple why you think you want this,

02:15:55 ◼   ► and what your app is that you're going to port to ARM,

02:15:58 ◼   ► and then you wait to hear from them.

02:16:01 ◼   ► And they're shipping this week, so I guess we'll all find out

02:16:04 ◼   ► if we win the lottery.

02:16:05 ◼   ► - I say we because I put my hat in the ring.

02:16:07 ◼   ► I have two Mac apps, and the reason I specified

02:16:10 ◼   ► was that I want to talk about the process

02:16:12 ◼   ► of porting them to ARM on my podcast.

02:16:14 ◼   ► Marco, you also put your hat in the ring?

02:16:16 ◼   ► - I did because I have Quitter, and Quitter really has

02:16:19 ◼   ► to make sure it runs on day one.

02:16:22 ◼   ► No, I'm just kidding.

02:16:23 ◼   ► I put my name in the hat for forecast,

02:16:26 ◼   ► and I also mentioned overcast, 'cause forecast,

02:16:28 ◼   ► yes, I want to make sure forecast, which uses,

02:16:31 ◼   ► it uses the lame MP3 encoding library under the hood,

02:16:34 ◼   ► and that's very time critical and performance critical,

02:16:37 ◼   ► and it's this low-level thing that's this third-party

02:16:39 ◼   ► library, so I want to make sure that works.

02:16:41 ◼   ► And I also want to make sure that overcast works correctly

02:16:43 ◼   ► when it's run via the download from the app store thing

02:16:46 ◼   ► that we'll talk about, I guess, sometime,

02:16:48 ◼   ► because that's also a pretty important thing,

02:16:50 ◼   ► and that I want to make sure all the low-level audio code

02:16:53 ◼   ► works well and is performant and everything else.

02:16:55 ◼   ► So yeah, so both things, but they seem to mostly care

02:16:57 ◼   ► about Mac apps specifically, so I mainly made

02:16:59 ◼   ► my little blurb about forecast.

02:17:01 ◼   ► - Yeah, I really hope they have a lot of these.

02:17:03 ◼   ► It'll be a shame if they have really, really limited supply

02:17:06 ◼   ► and most people don't get them.

02:17:07 ◼   ► I hope they just have enough to go around.

02:17:09 ◼   ► I mean, I understand the limitations, but you know.

02:17:12 ◼   ► Anyway, shipping this week, so that's good,

02:17:13 ◼   ► and I hope that if they run out of them,

02:17:15 ◼   ► maybe they can make more.

02:17:16 ◼   ► If there's huge demand, they can make more

02:17:18 ◼   ► and ship them out in the future, so I'm more than willing

02:17:20 ◼   ► to pay 500 bucks to get this weird Mac Mini thing,

02:17:22 ◼   ► even I have to give it back.

02:17:24 ◼   ► I don't know if they're gonna have any credit,

02:17:26 ◼   ► if you, I haven't looked into the details,

02:17:27 ◼   ► if you give it back, you get some kind of credit

02:17:29 ◼   ► towards something, you just lose that $500 forever,

02:17:31 ◼   ► where they give you a special deal like they did

02:17:32 ◼   ► on the Intel iMacs that you could buy

02:17:34 ◼   ► after you return the Pentium 4 dev kits.

02:17:37 ◼   ► But anyway, that's all straight up the middle.

02:17:38 ◼   ► More stuff straight up the middle.

02:17:40 ◼   ► Universal binaries, hey, binaries that have Intel code

02:17:43 ◼   ► and ARM in them, this is part of Apple's 2 branding,

02:17:46 ◼   ► it's called Universal 2.

02:17:48 ◼   ► Why do you have to call it 2, just call it Universal,

02:17:50 ◼   ► like the old Universal binaries were so long ago,

02:17:52 ◼   ► no one will get it confused, it'll be fine.

02:17:54 ◼   ► - Well, and they're still universal,

02:17:55 ◼   ► it's like calling something more unique.

02:17:57 ◼   ► It's not, it's just, it's still universal.

02:17:59 ◼   ► - I'm sure maybe it's a slightly different tech,

02:18:01 ◼   ► we'll see when we start taking apart the OS

02:18:03 ◼   ► and seeing what exactly the executable format is.

02:18:06 ◼   ► A lot of this is less relevant than it was before,

02:18:08 ◼   ► because Apple introduced app thinning in recent years,

02:18:11 ◼   ► where when you download from one of their app stores,

02:18:13 ◼   ► they don't give you the whole universal binary,

02:18:15 ◼   ► they just give you the one that has the executable code

02:18:18 ◼   ► for whatever machine you're on, so it saves in size,

02:18:20 ◼   ► and you don't have to download an app that's twice as big,

02:18:22 ◼   ► which is nice, although it really wouldn't be twice as big,

02:18:24 ◼   ► I don't think, anyway.

02:18:26 ◼   ► But that's what we expect in these type of transitions,

02:18:29 ◼   ► and there it is.

02:18:30 ◼   ► - And the final one, I will collect my points

02:18:32 ◼   ► for being right about being able to run x86 code

02:18:35 ◼   ► on your ARM Mac, Apple's gonna let you do it,

02:18:37 ◼   ► and they did a really amazing job, you know what,

02:18:39 ◼   ► 'cause they're really good at this,

02:18:40 ◼   ► they reused the name Rosetta,

02:18:41 ◼   ► but called it Rosetta 2 for some reason,

02:18:44 ◼   ► and they do all the things, right?

02:18:46 ◼   ► So can you run x86 apps unmodified on your ARM Mac?

02:18:50 ◼   ► Yes, you can.

02:18:51 ◼   ► What about plugins?

02:18:52 ◼   ► Yes, you can.

02:18:53 ◼   ► What about app extensions and drivers?

02:18:57 ◼   ► If you use DriverKit, you can even run those.

02:18:59 ◼   ► Older drivers are not supported,

02:19:01 ◼   ► but they went all the way out to making sure

02:19:04 ◼   ► that you can run all the types of x86 things

02:19:07 ◼   ► that are reasonable to run.

02:19:09 ◼   ► They do what they call translation, not emulation,

02:19:12 ◼   ► but translation, and they do it either at install time

02:19:15 ◼   ► or on first launch for app packages

02:19:17 ◼   ► that are bundled in the .app thing.

02:19:20 ◼   ► Basically, they will write out to disk

02:19:23 ◼   ► the ARM equivalent of the x86 code,

02:19:26 ◼   ► so it doesn't have to do that on the fly.

02:19:29 ◼   ► And again, if they control the app store,

02:19:30 ◼   ► they'll do it at install time,

02:19:31 ◼   ► but if they don't, they'll just do it on first launch.

02:19:33 ◼   ► There's also a dynamic translation available

02:19:35 ◼   ► for things that are sort of just-in-time compiled,

02:19:37 ◼   ► like the just-in-time compiler for JavaScript code

02:19:40 ◼   ► in a web browser or something like that.

02:19:42 ◼   ► They have all the things.

02:19:44 ◼   ► Apple is really good at this.

02:19:45 ◼   ► They've done it many times in the past,

02:19:46 ◼   ► and whatever team did it last time

02:19:48 ◼   ► for the Intel transition, presumably,

02:19:50 ◼   ► all that expertise and institutional knowledge

02:19:52 ◼   ► is still at Apple, and I have high hopes

02:19:53 ◼   ► that this will be just as amazing.

02:19:55 ◼   ► There was lots of concern that, oh, well,

02:19:58 ◼   ► ARM CPUs aren't gonna be that much faster than Intel,

02:20:00 ◼   ► so can they even handle this?

02:20:02 ◼   ► Will it be feasible to run x86 software?

02:20:05 ◼   ► Part of the reason that I predicted last show

02:20:08 ◼   ► that they would have this feature

02:20:09 ◼   ► is because it running slightly slowly

02:20:13 ◼   ► is way better than it not running at all.

02:20:15 ◼   ► Lots of apps are not performance sensitive.

02:20:17 ◼   ► You just need them to run.

02:20:19 ◼   ► Apple wasn't satisfied with that in the demo.

02:20:21 ◼   ► They're not like, oh, don't worry.

02:20:22 ◼   ► You won't lose your software.

02:20:23 ◼   ► Your crap will run.

02:20:24 ◼   ► They're like, look, we're gonna run

02:20:25 ◼   ► an x86 game on modified, which, granted,

02:20:29 ◼   ► it wasn't the most demanding game,

02:20:30 ◼   ► and they ran it at 1080, but it was a fairly recent game.

02:20:33 ◼   ► It was Shadow of the Tomb Raider,

02:20:34 ◼   ► which was from 2018, and running it at low res, fine,

02:20:38 ◼   ► but that was their demo of not only can you run

02:20:42 ◼   ► x86 software, not only will your favorite,

02:20:45 ◼   ► you'll be able to run Scrivener before they do

02:20:47 ◼   ► the ARM port, and it will be fine,

02:20:49 ◼   ► and you won't even notice.

02:20:50 ◼   ► It'll be completely transparent to you,

02:20:52 ◼   ► but you can run this game, which it's not saying

02:20:55 ◼   ► you can run any game.

02:20:56 ◼   ► Games are gonna, it's gonna be worse, right,

02:20:58 ◼   ► but any, literally any real-time 3D game being viable

02:21:02 ◼   ► is a fairly amazing demonstration of either the power

02:21:06 ◼   ► of whatever ARM Mac that they were running an add-on,

02:21:08 ◼   ► or the cleverness of the translation,

02:21:10 ◼   ► but most likely both, so I'm pretty excited about that,

02:21:13 ◼   ► and the other big theme software-wise with integration

02:21:17 ◼   ► with this ARM stuff is, talked the last show

02:21:20 ◼   ► about this being an opportunity to ditch old stuff,

02:21:23 ◼   ► to say, well, transitioning to ARM,

02:21:25 ◼   ► you might not even call them Macs,

02:21:26 ◼   ► and you can deprecate all your old APIs,

02:21:28 ◼   ► you can ditch all the things.

02:21:30 ◼   ► It seems like all of their ditching has already happened,

02:21:33 ◼   ► and instead they're saying, we're not taking away APIs,

02:21:37 ◼   ► we're not breaking your crap unnecessarily.

02:21:40 ◼   ► OpenGL is still there.

02:21:42 ◼   ► Like, kernel extensions are still exported,

02:21:45 ◼   ► still supported in Big Sur, not under Rosetta,

02:21:48 ◼   ► but they are supporting, like, basically,

02:21:52 ◼   ► anything that runs in Catalina, in theory,

02:21:55 ◼   ► should continue to run in Big Sur.

02:21:57 ◼   ► Now, will that hold after Big Sur?

02:21:59 ◼   ► I don't know, but for now, they're trying to ease

02:22:01 ◼   ► the transition by saying, we're not gonna break your crap

02:22:04 ◼   ► completely unnecessarily.

02:22:06 ◼   ► We already did all that, we already deprecated 32-bit,

02:22:08 ◼   ► we already got all this stuff, OpenGL is still deprecated

02:22:11 ◼   ► and will go away someday, but don't blame it on ARM.

02:22:14 ◼   ► Like, ARM's not taking away your stuff.

02:22:17 ◼   ► Again, the only exception are things like kernel extensions,

02:22:19 ◼   ► where they really can't do anything about that.

02:22:21 ◼   ► But, you know, USB drivers with Driver Kit, app extensions,

02:22:25 ◼   ► your apps, all that stuff will work.

02:22:26 ◼   ► This is before we even get to, like,

02:22:27 ◼   ► how hard is it to port your thing.

02:22:29 ◼   ► They are bending over backwards to make sure

02:22:31 ◼   ► that you don't buy your first ARM Mac and say,

02:22:34 ◼   ► oh, what the hell am I gonna run on it?

02:22:35 ◼   ► And so I was very excited to see all that.

02:22:38 ◼   ► - Yeah, that was, I'm extremely happy

02:22:41 ◼   ► to give you your points.

02:22:42 ◼   ► I was totally wrong, like I said last show,

02:22:44 ◼   ► that I thought there wasn't gonna be any emulation,

02:22:46 ◼   ► and I thought anything that was currently deprecated,

02:22:48 ◼   ► like OpenGL, would just be gone under ARM Macs.

02:22:51 ◼   ► And I was wrong on both of those fronts by a lot.

02:22:54 ◼   ► And that's a very good thing.

02:22:57 ◼   ► I'm very, very glad that they've chosen here.

02:23:00 ◼   ► You know, there's a number of things,

02:23:02 ◼   ► like, you know, we were worried about, like,

02:23:03 ◼   ► might they introduce more strict security?

02:23:06 ◼   ► Maybe everything has to be app store only,

02:23:08 ◼   ► or it'll be a harder process to, like,

02:23:11 ◼   ► compile your own software or anything.

02:23:13 ◼   ► Nope, no changes.

02:23:14 ◼   ► Like, it seems like there's actually no additional,

02:23:18 ◼   ► like, security restrictions in the OS

02:23:21 ◼   ► for anything that any normal person would ever do,

02:23:25 ◼   ► you know, for the ARM Macs compared to other Macs.

02:23:27 ◼   ► Like, here's how Big Sur runs.

02:23:30 ◼   ► Big Sur seems to be not any more strict than Catalina

02:23:33 ◼   ► in most ways, and it runs the same way,

02:23:35 ◼   ► whether you're on Intel or Apple Silicon,

02:23:38 ◼   ► whatever they're gonna call that.

02:23:39 ◼   ► And so that's fantastic news.

02:23:42 ◼   ► It is worth noting, though, that the Rosetta layer,

02:23:46 ◼   ► they were very clear in labeling it transitional

02:23:49 ◼   ► in a number of points in both the keynote

02:23:50 ◼   ► and the State of the Union.

02:23:51 ◼   ► So I would expect, just like the original Rosetta

02:23:54 ◼   ► from PowerPC to Intel, I would expect this is going to last

02:23:57 ◼   ► maybe three or four years and then be removed from the OS.

02:24:00 ◼   ► So, you know, don't get too attached to anything

02:24:03 ◼   ► that needs it, but it is nice for the transition.

02:24:05 ◼   ► And then the other kind of big elephant in the room

02:24:08 ◼   ► is that Windows compatibility was never mentioned,

02:24:11 ◼   ► including in the virtualization layer,

02:24:12 ◼   ► because the virtualization layer can only run ARM hosts.

02:24:15 ◼   ► It cannot create x86 hosts.

02:24:18 ◼   ► Virtualization and Rosetta are separate things,

02:24:20 ◼   ► and they are not to be combined.

02:24:23 ◼   ► And the ability, of course, to boot into boot camp

02:24:27 ◼   ► is probably totally gone as well,

02:24:29 ◼   ► because I don't think anything is able to use Rosetta

02:24:33 ◼   ► quite to that level, like running an entire OS level.

02:24:38 ◼   ► So Rosetta is for apps, not OSes.

02:24:40 ◼   ► So if your workflow depends on virtualizing or booting

02:24:45 ◼   ► into Windows, you're going to have a problem.

02:24:48 ◼   ► And I don't know, what is the status of-- is there like an ARM

02:24:50 ◼   ► port of Windows anymore, or does it matter?

02:24:52 ◼   ► No, there totally is Windows for ARM.

02:24:54 ◼   ► Like, here's the thing.

02:24:55 ◼   ► They didn't mention anything about Windows, right?

02:24:58 ◼   ► But they did-- like, the stand-in for Windows was Linux.

02:25:01 ◼   ► So they showed an ARM version of Linux

02:25:03 ◼   ► running in virtualization.

02:25:04 ◼   ► The virtualization, by the way, is like the same way

02:25:06 ◼   ► you do virtualization on x86, where you can take your x86 CPU

02:25:09 ◼   ► that's in your Mac, and you can run any other x86 operating

02:25:13 ◼   ► system sharing the CPU.

02:25:15 ◼   ► Same thing with ARM.

02:25:16 ◼   ► Take another ARM operating system,

02:25:17 ◼   ► like they have their hypervisor and all this stuff that

02:25:19 ◼   ► lets you take another operating system that runs on ARM

02:25:22 ◼   ► and run it on the same thing that's running Mac OS,

02:25:25 ◼   ► and they share the resources and work it out.

02:25:27 ◼   ► So that's virtualization, and that works on ARM.

02:25:31 ◼   ► But that doesn't help you at all with x86, right?

02:25:33 ◼   ► So they showed that happening in Linux.

02:25:35 ◼   ► They showed Parallels running Linux.

02:25:37 ◼   ► And people might be confused.

02:25:38 ◼   ► Say, oh, well, look at that.

02:25:39 ◼   ► They're running Linux.

02:25:39 ◼   ► It does support x86.

02:25:40 ◼   ► That was ARM Linux.

02:25:42 ◼   ► And Linux is on every platform, of course.

02:25:44 ◼   ► So of course, there's an ARM port of it.

02:25:45 ◼   ► Which, by the way, I think I'll probably

02:25:47 ◼   ► use that for server development.

02:25:48 ◼   ► That looks awesome compared to trying

02:25:50 ◼   ► to make sure that PHP and everything installed properly

02:25:53 ◼   ► with Homebrew on Mac OS, which changes and breaks every OS

02:25:56 ◼   ► release.

02:25:57 ◼   ► That's been such a pain in my ass most of the time.

02:25:59 ◼   ► I'm actually very much looking forward to probably, hopefully,

02:26:02 ◼   ► switching to that in the future.

02:26:03 ◼   ► You could be doing that today.

02:26:04 ◼   ► They showed Docker, same deal.

02:26:06 ◼   ► You could be doing that today with VMware or whatever.

02:26:09 ◼   ► But Windows does exist for ARM.

02:26:12 ◼   ► And there is no technical reason why

02:26:13 ◼   ► Boot Camp can't exist to let your ARM-based Mac boot

02:26:16 ◼   ► into Windows for ARM, which you may be sad about.

02:26:19 ◼   ► But it's like, oh, who the hell cares about Windows for ARM?

02:26:22 ◼   ► None of my games will run.

02:26:22 ◼   ► They're all x86, yada, yada.

02:26:23 ◼   ► But I don't know what was preventing

02:26:27 ◼   ► Windows from being demoed.

02:26:28 ◼   ► I don't know why Boot Camp wasn't there.

02:26:30 ◼   ► I continue to think that eventually Boot Camp will rise

02:26:33 ◼   ► again as a way for you to boot Windows for ARM on your Mac.

02:26:37 ◼   ► This is an interesting time.

02:26:38 ◼   ► We've talked about this before.

02:26:40 ◼   ► I'll take the other side of that bit.

02:26:41 ◼   ► All right.

02:26:42 ◼   ► Well, you might be wrong again.

02:26:43 ◼   ► Feel free.

02:26:43 ◼   ► [LAUGHTER]

02:26:44 ◼   ► Oh.

02:26:45 ◼   ► I think you will be able to boot ARM Windows on these Macs

02:26:48 ◼   ► eventually.

02:26:48 ◼   ► Part of this is predicated on the idea of everyone

02:26:52 ◼   ► more or less moving away from x86,

02:26:53 ◼   ► partly because Intel's been having problems

02:26:55 ◼   ► with their process, but also partly

02:26:57 ◼   ► because this is just the way things have been going.

02:27:00 ◼   ► It's a slow change, but I feel like we're

02:27:02 ◼   ► going in that direction.

02:27:03 ◼   ► We may halt, and the progression towards ARM everywhere

02:27:06 ◼   ► may just stop dead in its track and not get any farther.

02:27:08 ◼   ► But over the past several years, there

02:27:11 ◼   ► has been a steady drumbeat in that direction.

02:27:13 ◼   ► Apple going full ARM, although it makes sense

02:27:15 ◼   ► for tons of other reasons, is another--

02:27:17 ◼   ► I'm not going to say another nail in that coffin for Intel,

02:27:19 ◼   ► because Intel is still making stuff.

02:27:21 ◼   ► But it could happen.

02:27:23 ◼   ► Now, there are a lot of concerns about,

02:27:26 ◼   ► is all my software going to run?

02:27:27 ◼   ► Forget about my Mac apps or whatever,

02:27:29 ◼   ► but what if I don't want to virtualize ARM Linux?

02:27:31 ◼   ► What if I have a bunch of open source software for x86?

02:27:34 ◼   ► What if I use some of that open source software for x86

02:27:36 ◼   ► in my apps?

02:27:37 ◼   ► And I need to-- like Lame in your library,

02:27:39 ◼   ► how do I get that to build and everything?

02:27:41 ◼   ► Apple itself is helping out on a bunch of open source projects

02:27:46 ◼   ► by helping those projects figure out

02:27:47 ◼   ► how to get their thing to build for ARM on Mac OS.

02:27:51 ◼   ► That's always the tricky bit about this.

02:27:54 ◼   ► When the Mac went Intel, it's like, oh, well,

02:27:57 ◼   ► they'll have access to all this software

02:27:58 ◼   ► because everyone runs Linux on Intel,

02:28:01 ◼   ► and so I'll just be able to take any Linux open source project

02:28:03 ◼   ► and build it for the Mac.

02:28:05 ◼   ► It's like, no.

02:28:06 ◼   ► It's a different compiler, different tool chain,

02:28:08 ◼   ► different operating system.

02:28:09 ◼   ► People had to do work to get insert name

02:28:12 ◼   ► of your favorite open source thing to build on Intel Macs.

02:28:16 ◼   ► They will have to do that same work to get it to build on ARM

02:28:19 ◼   ► Macs.

02:28:19 ◼   ► Just because Linux was running on Intel for years and years

02:28:22 ◼   ► before the Mac transition didn't really

02:28:24 ◼   ► make it that much easier, except for if there

02:28:26 ◼   ► was CPU-specific code.

02:28:29 ◼   ► But honestly, most open source stuff

02:28:30 ◼   ► doesn't have CPU-specific code.

02:28:31 ◼   ► And even stuff that does, like FFmpeg

02:28:33 ◼   ► that may have SSE instructions, there

02:28:35 ◼   ► are tools that will translate from SSE or MMX

02:28:39 ◼   ► or whatever the hell the things are called.

02:28:41 ◼   ► There's some other acronym I forget in the Intel--

02:28:43 ◼   ► AVX.

02:28:44 ◼   ► Yeah, AVX.

02:28:46 ◼   ► They will translate from that to NEON or whatever the ARM SIMD

02:28:51 ◼   ► engine thing is.

02:28:52 ◼   ► Someone just needs to do the work to sort of hook

02:28:55 ◼   ► all that stuff up.

02:28:55 ◼   ► And so changing the source code, changing the make files,

02:28:58 ◼   ► changing the compiler flags, all that good stuff,

02:29:00 ◼   ► Apple is helping with that by having their engineers spend

02:29:03 ◼   ► time on what they probably know from their experience

02:29:06 ◼   ► with the App Store are the most frequently integrated open

02:29:09 ◼   ► source projects.

02:29:10 ◼   ► They've had a big slide with a bunch of them

02:29:12 ◼   ► up that said like Blender, Boost, Nginx, FFmpeg, Electron,

02:29:17 ◼   ► CMake, OpenCV, Node, Redis.

02:29:21 ◼   ► You can look at the slide.

02:29:22 ◼   ► And then I think at one point they

02:29:23 ◼   ► highlighted certain ones are the ones that actually helped with.

02:29:26 ◼   ► So this is like their to-do list.

02:29:28 ◼   ► And then there are some things that it actually

02:29:29 ◼   ► started helping with.

02:29:30 ◼   ► But all this makes me hopeful that, yeah, there'll

02:29:34 ◼   ► be a bumpy transition.

02:29:35 ◼   ► But by the time this two years is out,

02:29:37 ◼   ► I will be able to build all the same stuff that

02:29:40 ◼   ► have been built on my Mac.

02:29:41 ◼   ► Right now I have built and installed my Mac.

02:29:42 ◼   ► I compiled Perl from source and installed it.

02:29:44 ◼   ► I compiled MySQL from source and installed it.

02:29:47 ◼   ► I compiled Postgres from source and installed it.

02:29:50 ◼   ► This is what I do, compile from source, whatever.

02:29:52 ◼   ► The fact that I can do that is because

02:29:54 ◼   ► of during the transition someone made sure

02:29:57 ◼   ► that all this stuff built on Intel-based Macs.

02:30:00 ◼   ► I hope someone, and someone maybe Apple,

02:30:02 ◼   ► does all the same stuff for the ARM transition.

02:30:04 ◼   ► If not, it's going to be sad because I don't

02:30:06 ◼   ► want to run Linux and virtualization

02:30:08 ◼   ► to get all my Unix-y stuff.

02:30:10 ◼   ► Speaking of that, as far as I can tell,

02:30:12 ◼   ► all the Unix-y stuff is still the same.

02:30:13 ◼   ► Mac OS is still Mac OS.

02:30:15 ◼   ► It's got the terminal.

02:30:16 ◼   ► It's got the shell.

02:30:17 ◼   ► It's all the same.

02:30:19 ◼   ► There's no big news in that area.

02:30:21 ◼   ► Thank god.

02:30:23 ◼   ► Yeah, and I was heartened by this presentation--

02:30:25 ◼   ► It is a word.

02:30:25 ◼   ► --of all the presenters and the meta message being

02:30:28 ◼   ► that the Mac is still the place where you do crap,

02:30:31 ◼   ► like run Docker and install weird-ass crap.

02:30:33 ◼   ► And that's what the Mac's job is.

02:30:35 ◼   ► And by having demos that showed people doing that,

02:30:38 ◼   ► it made it clear that despite what Alan Dye may think,

02:30:41 ◼   ► the Mac is still definitely very different from an iPad

02:30:44 ◼   ► and an iPhone.

02:30:46 ◼   ► Yeah, it's impressive to me.

02:30:49 ◼   ► It seems like such an Apple move,

02:30:51 ◼   ► as we discussed quite a bit last episode.

02:30:53 ◼   ► It seems like such an Apple move to use this as a time

02:30:55 ◼   ► to cut the fat and to just say, well,

02:30:57 ◼   ► all that stuff that we've been trying to get rid of, it's dead.

02:30:59 ◼   ► It's very dead.

02:31:00 ◼   ► It's not just a little dead.

02:31:01 ◼   ► It's real dead.

02:31:02 ◼   ► And it seems that they did a very Microsoftian thing, which

02:31:07 ◼   ► is to say almost everywhere, they

02:31:10 ◼   ► didn't get rid of anything.

02:31:11 ◼   ► They tried their darndest to hold onto stuff, even stuff

02:31:15 ◼   ► like-- what is it, OpenGL, right?

02:31:17 ◼   ► That they've been saying--

02:31:18 ◼   ► NCL.

02:31:19 ◼   ► --that they've been saying for years is going away.

02:31:22 ◼   ► And they still held onto it.

02:31:23 ◼   ► And it is going away, just not this year.

02:31:25 ◼   ► Right.

02:31:26 ◼   ► I don't know.

02:31:26 ◼   ► I was extremely pleased to see the slide about how

02:31:30 ◼   ► they're going to contribute to FFmpeg, among other things.

02:31:33 ◼   ► I joke a lot about how much I use FFmpeg.

02:31:34 ◼   ► And I use it way more than any normal human should.

02:31:37 ◼   ► But that, to me, is a very good indicator

02:31:40 ◼   ► that they give a crap.

02:31:42 ◼   ► And they really don't want this stuff to break.

02:31:44 ◼   ► And the only thing that chaps my behind to some degree about all

02:31:49 ◼   ► this, other than the fact that I just brought this new laptop,

02:31:52 ◼   ► but the only thing that really bums me out

02:31:55 ◼   ► is the Windows-- Windows on Intel virtualization story

02:32:00 ◼   ► seems to be nonexistent.

02:32:02 ◼   ► And one would assume that there would

02:32:05 ◼   ► be-- that VMware or Parallels will stop up and do

02:32:09 ◼   ► some sort of true-to-form emulation,

02:32:13 ◼   ► rather than hypervisor-powered virtualization.

02:32:16 ◼   ► And it would presumably be very slow, but workable.

02:32:19 ◼   ► And I am basing all this on several-year-old information.

02:32:23 ◼   ► But when I last was doing not iOS development for a job,

02:32:27 ◼   ► when I was doing Windows development for a job,

02:32:29 ◼   ► I really preferred using a Mac.

02:32:31 ◼   ► Because Mac OS at the time-- and I would assume that's still

02:32:35 ◼   ► true today, but I don't know-- Mac OS was a much better place

02:32:39 ◼   ► to get my job done.

02:32:41 ◼   ► Even despite the fact that I was doing most of my actual work

02:32:44 ◼   ► in Visual Studio in a VM, even despite that, it was just--

02:32:49 ◼   ► everything around it was so much better on the Mac.

02:32:52 ◼   ► And so what I did was I ran VMware Fusion all day,

02:32:55 ◼   ► every working day.

02:32:56 ◼   ► And that's where I did my work.

02:32:57 ◼   ► And when it was Intel on Intel, it was reasonably speedy.

02:33:01 ◼   ► I mean, it wasn't perfect, but it was speedy enough.

02:33:03 ◼   ► And I know that last I had heard,

02:33:06 ◼   ► a lot of people in the workplace had to do this sort of thing.

02:33:10 ◼   ► Because a lot of line of business apps,

02:33:12 ◼   ► or bespoke apps for particular companies--

02:33:15 ◼   ► and this is, in my experience, this gets much worse the bigger

02:33:17 ◼   ► the company is-- a lot of these apps were Windows only.

02:33:21 ◼   ► And they weren't web apps, necessarily.

02:33:22 ◼   ► They were, honest to goodness, native apps,

02:33:24 ◼   ► where you had to run them on a Windows computer.

02:33:27 ◼   ► And again, I am hopefully very out of touch.

02:33:30 ◼   ► And hopefully, all of these stupid apps

02:33:33 ◼   ► and all of these different, humongous companies

02:33:35 ◼   ► have moved to be web apps now.

02:33:37 ◼   ► And they don't require like ActiveX and Windows Explorer,

02:33:40 ◼   ► Internet Explorer, anything like that.

02:33:42 ◼   ► But as of the last time I was in this world,

02:33:46 ◼   ► running a VM was critical.

02:33:49 ◼   ► It was absolutely critical.

02:33:50 ◼   ► And not being able to run a Windows VM that

02:33:54 ◼   ► can run all of the software that Intel Windows can run,

02:33:58 ◼   ► that's a bit of a showstopper.

02:34:00 ◼   ► And meanwhile, I keep hearing all this rumblings

02:34:03 ◼   ► from people who do use Windows that it's

02:34:06 ◼   ► gotten to be really good as a developer platform.

02:34:09 ◼   ► And I can't speak to it one way or another,

02:34:10 ◼   ► because I haven't used Windows in years.

02:34:12 ◼   ► And honestly, I don't have any particular interest in it.

02:34:14 ◼   ► But I have understood it to be really, really a lot better

02:34:18 ◼   ► now, quite a bit better now.

02:34:20 ◼   ► And although I have no intention of going back to work

02:34:23 ◼   ► and getting a Windows-based programming job,

02:34:27 ◼   ► it still concerns me that not supporting Intel Windows

02:34:33 ◼   ► could cut out a whole bunch of otherwise very enthusiastic Mac

02:34:37 ◼   ► users.

02:34:38 ◼   ► And I don't know, it's all-- I'm talking out my butt.

02:34:41 ◼   ► But it worries me a bit.

02:34:43 ◼   ► No, you're right.

02:34:44 ◼   ► You're right to be worried.

02:34:45 ◼   ► Because as someone who ran actual emulation of x86 Windows

02:34:48 ◼   ► on PowerPC, it is essentially too slow to be.

02:34:51 ◼   ► You don't want to do it.

02:34:52 ◼   ► Like, you can do it to get by if you just

02:34:54 ◼   ► need to run a particular app to do a thing,

02:34:55 ◼   ► but you do not want to live in that all day.

02:34:57 ◼   ► It's not really that viable.

02:35:00 ◼   ► So basically, if Windows does not also

02:35:03 ◼   ► make a transition to ARM sometime in the next decade

02:35:06 ◼   ► or so, the Mac will have lost an important capability.

02:35:09 ◼   ► It will no longer be one machine that you can get to run Mac

02:35:13 ◼   ► stuff and Windows stuff.

02:35:14 ◼   ► But it will have gained some other things

02:35:15 ◼   ► that we'll get to in a second.

02:35:15 ◼   ► But before we go to what I think is

02:35:17 ◼   ► the final section of this very surprising announcement related

02:35:20 ◼   ► to ARM Macs, I just want to do a couple moments of speculation

02:35:24 ◼   ► about-- so gathering the tea leaves of what they said today,

02:35:27 ◼   ► what can we surmise about ARM Macs.

02:35:29 ◼   ► Now, a lot of people are upset about them not saying anything

02:35:33 ◼   ► about ARM Macs other than the first one

02:35:35 ◼   ► will ship before the end of the year and it'll

02:35:37 ◼   ► be two-year transition, right?

02:35:39 ◼   ► The developer-- I would again tell everyone the developer

02:35:41 ◼   ► transition kit, ignore that.

02:35:43 ◼   ► No ARM Mac will ever be like that.

02:35:47 ◼   ► That's just the developer transition kit.

02:35:49 ◼   ► All they said is they're making a family of SOCs

02:35:52 ◼   ► and they love that it has good performance and power

02:35:55 ◼   ► trade-offs and yada, yada, like all the stuff that we know.

02:35:57 ◼   ► But they did not get into any specifics,

02:35:59 ◼   ► including they did not get any thing where

02:36:01 ◼   ► they bragged about how fast their ARM Macs are going to be.

02:36:04 ◼   ► There's a good reason for that.

02:36:05 ◼   ► What would they be bragging about?

02:36:07 ◼   ► They're completely unannounced products?

02:36:09 ◼   ► Just trust us that we have an ARM Mac and it's really good,

02:36:11 ◼   ► but we can't tell you anything about it, right?

02:36:14 ◼   ► You know, you shouldn't have expected them to come in

02:36:16 ◼   ► to say anything more than they said, which was it'll

02:36:18 ◼   ► be a new level of performance.

02:36:19 ◼   ► There's all sorts of vague things.

02:36:21 ◼   ► But trust us here on Accidental Tech Podcast

02:36:23 ◼   ► when we tell you that, especially in the laptop

02:36:26 ◼   ► line, Apple's current ARM chips are already better in many

02:36:29 ◼   ► regards than Intel's chips.

02:36:31 ◼   ► Now, Intel's not standing still either,

02:36:33 ◼   ► but Apple will be making ARM Macs on a smaller process size

02:36:39 ◼   ► and they'll be making chips that will probably beat anything

02:36:41 ◼   ► that Intel has in the laptop class of machines.

02:36:45 ◼   ► What is Apple going to do for the big machines?

02:36:47 ◼   ► They set a two-year transition.

02:36:49 ◼   ► They didn't say a two-year transition

02:36:50 ◼   ► except for the Mac Pro, which will never transition.

02:36:52 ◼   ► They didn't say that.

02:36:53 ◼   ► So presumably, two years from now,

02:36:55 ◼   ► Apple's going to have some answer for the Mac Pro.

02:36:58 ◼   ► So I would say don't be sad that they didn't give you

02:37:01 ◼   ► any benchmarks or say anything because they didn't announce

02:37:03 ◼   ► any hardware and they're not going

02:37:05 ◼   ► to do that until it's ready.

02:37:06 ◼   ► And the second thing is Apple is essentially

02:37:10 ◼   ► committing to do the thing.

02:37:12 ◼   ► ARM for all Macs.

02:37:14 ◼   ► And that leads me to the next point,

02:37:15 ◼   ► which is in one of the slides they put up.

02:37:17 ◼   ► They had a particular thing that caught my eye that said Unified

02:37:20 ◼   ► Memory Architecture, which is basically just a description

02:37:22 ◼   ► of how every Apple A-whatever system on a chip has worked.

02:37:27 ◼   ► It's a system on a chip, there's some RAM,

02:37:29 ◼   ► and that RAM is used for both.

02:37:31 ◼   ► There's no dedicated VRAM.

02:37:34 ◼   ► On my Mac Pro right now, I have a couple of video cards

02:37:36 ◼   ► in there, and those video cards have their own dedicated video

02:37:39 ◼   ► memory that's on the cards themselves.

02:37:41 ◼   ► It's a different kind of memory.

02:37:42 ◼   ► It's addressed over a different bus.

02:37:44 ◼   ► It's right there on the card.

02:37:45 ◼   ► And then my Mac has system memory,

02:37:47 ◼   ► which is separate from that.

02:37:49 ◼   ► Apple's iOS devices have always had a Unified Memory

02:37:51 ◼   ► Architecture where you just have one pool of RAM that started out

02:37:53 ◼   ► really super small, has gotten bigger over time,

02:37:56 ◼   ► and that's used for everything.

02:37:57 ◼   ► It's used for video RAM.

02:37:58 ◼   ► It's used for the applications.

02:38:00 ◼   ► It's a Unified Memory Architecture.

02:38:03 ◼   ► When we think about what I just said,

02:38:05 ◼   ► that they're going to do a transition of all of their Macs,

02:38:07 ◼   ► and they emphasize many, many times,

02:38:09 ◼   ► we know what Macs are used for.

02:38:11 ◼   ► We're making this family of system on a chips

02:38:14 ◼   ► to be good at all the things that Macs are used for.

02:38:16 ◼   ► They bragged about the fact that Final Cut Pro already works.

02:38:19 ◼   ► They showed it running three streams of 4K video,

02:38:23 ◼   ► which is not impressive in terms of what the Mac Pro can do

02:38:25 ◼   ► in terms of simultaneous streams of 8K video at high bit depths.

02:38:29 ◼   ► So Apple is signing itself up for eventually

02:38:33 ◼   ► making a Mac that can do what this Mac Pro can do,

02:38:39 ◼   ► but runs an ARM CPU.

02:38:41 ◼   ► And I've been sitting here trying

02:38:43 ◼   ► to square that circle with a Unified Memory Architecture,

02:38:45 ◼   ► because if you know how you can outfit this Mac Pro,

02:38:48 ◼   ► you can put two dual GPU cards in there, each of which

02:38:53 ◼   ► has umpteen gigabytes of its own dedicated VRAM.

02:38:58 ◼   ► And Apple has to ship two years from now

02:39:00 ◼   ► a computer that can match that in terms of GPU horsepower

02:39:05 ◼   ► with a quote unquote "unified memory architecture."

02:39:09 ◼   ► I'm scratching my head and thinking,

02:39:11 ◼   ► how is that going to work?

02:39:12 ◼   ► Now, to assuage some fears, in everything

02:39:16 ◼   ► except for the super high end use case,

02:39:18 ◼   ► Apple's probably pretty OK.

02:39:19 ◼   ► When they showed that Shadow of Tomb Raider demo

02:39:22 ◼   ► on whatever they were running it on, but honestly,

02:39:25 ◼   ► I think their current line-- the A12Z probably

02:39:28 ◼   ► could have done that, right?

02:39:29 ◼   ► A unified architecture, where it's a system on a chip,

02:39:32 ◼   ► a single pool of memory, and an integrated GPU,

02:39:35 ◼   ► that's how the upcoming generation of consoles

02:39:37 ◼   ► all work, right?

02:39:39 ◼   ► The PlayStation 5, the Xbox Series X, right?

02:39:44 ◼   ► If you look at those chips there,

02:39:46 ◼   ► essentially they have CPU and GPU all in one big package,

02:39:50 ◼   ► and a unified pool of RAM for all that stuff.

02:39:54 ◼   ► And there are no slouches, right?

02:39:56 ◼   ► So anything up to-- like, if you had a laptop that

02:39:59 ◼   ► could play PS5 games at 4K, just like the PS5 can,

02:40:02 ◼   ► you'd be like, that's pretty good graphics for a laptop,

02:40:04 ◼   ► right?

02:40:05 ◼   ► So right up to basically that limit, you're fine.

02:40:08 ◼   ► But anyone who knows anything about game consoles is, OK,

02:40:10 ◼   ► well, game consoles are great.

02:40:12 ◼   ► But if you want to have real gaming horsepower, of course,

02:40:15 ◼   ► you need a gaming PC.

02:40:16 ◼   ► And gaming PCs are always, except for maybe

02:40:19 ◼   ► on launch day of a console, more powerful than consoles.

02:40:22 ◼   ► Because in a gaming PC, you can buy a video card

02:40:26 ◼   ► that costs more than the entire PlayStation 5,

02:40:30 ◼   ► stick it inside your gaming PC, and have way more horsepower.

02:40:36 ◼   ► Add to that the fact that the Mac Pro has, like,

02:40:39 ◼   ► umpteen PCI slots.

02:40:40 ◼   ► The whole point of this machine that it has PCI slots.

02:40:42 ◼   ► What do you stick in those PCI slots if none of them

02:40:44 ◼   ► can be filled with video cards?

02:40:46 ◼   ► So my biggest hardware question that I'm looking forward

02:40:49 ◼   ► to being answered in the next two years is, how the hell

02:40:52 ◼   ► do you replace the Mac Pro with an ARM equivalent machine

02:40:55 ◼   ► if you don't have support for discrete GPUs?

02:40:58 ◼   ► Does Apple make its own discrete GPU?

02:41:00 ◼   ► Do they continue to partner with AMD and work that out?

02:41:02 ◼   ► Many of these things are technically possible.

02:41:04 ◼   ► But as far as we've ever seen from Apple,

02:41:07 ◼   ► they have never made an ARM system

02:41:09 ◼   ► on its ship that has any support for external GPUs.

02:41:12 ◼   ► Their entire architecture doesn't lend itself to that.

02:41:14 ◼   ► So two parts to this.

02:41:15 ◼   ► One, don't flip out about integrated GPU.

02:41:18 ◼   ► It'll be great for everything if you're just

02:41:20 ◼   ► happy with up to and including PS5 performance.

02:41:23 ◼   ► But two, be on the lookout for some big changes here.

02:41:25 ◼   ► Either they don't replace the Mac Pro,

02:41:27 ◼   ► or they're going to have some very impressive, very cool

02:41:31 ◼   ► custom hardware that tries to match what today's Mac Pro can

02:41:34 ◼   ► do with thousands of dollars worth of GPU and VRAM

02:41:38 ◼   ► inside there.

02:41:40 ◼   ► Yeah, that's a massive question.

02:41:42 ◼   ► Because I, too, as soon as I said

02:41:44 ◼   ► uniform memory architecture, I'm like, oh, yeah.

02:41:45 ◼   ► That is what iOS devices have.

02:41:47 ◼   ► And that most likely precludes any other GPUs from being used.

02:41:52 ◼   ► No discrete, no external.

02:41:54 ◼   ► And they could add that, but they didn't announce that today.

02:41:58 ◼   ► And it doesn't seem like the kind of thing they would do.

02:42:02 ◼   ► At the same time, the Mac Pro-- and they

02:42:05 ◼   ► did say that they were planning on completing the transition

02:42:07 ◼   ► in about two years.

02:42:09 ◼   ► At the same time, the Mac Pro they announced last year,

02:42:12 ◼   ► they--

02:42:13 ◼   ► I mean, I think somebody even said as much explicitly

02:42:16 ◼   ► that this is not something that they expected to be a one-off.

02:42:21 ◼   ► When they unveiled the new Mac Pro last year,

02:42:23 ◼   ► they expected this to be for the long haul.

02:42:27 ◼   ► So I can't imagine they were expecting

02:42:28 ◼   ► that to last, at the time, only three years at most.

02:42:32 ◼   ► That is not the impression I got last year

02:42:34 ◼   ► at all from talking to people for the Mac Pro.

02:42:37 ◼   ► People at Apple.

02:42:39 ◼   ► And so I have to imagine that there will

02:42:41 ◼   ► be a story about the Mac Pro.

02:42:44 ◼   ► And really what they said today sounds

02:42:46 ◼   ► like it's going to go ARM by roughly two years from now.

02:42:51 ◼   ► So there's going to be some kind of story

02:42:53 ◼   ► where something that takes roughly that form factor

02:42:57 ◼   ► and roughly that capability level

02:43:01 ◼   ► is going to exist in the ARM world.

02:43:03 ◼   ► And what form that takes, I have no idea.

02:43:05 ◼   ► I think of the options you listed, John.

02:43:07 ◼   ► I think the most likely that I can come up with

02:43:09 ◼   ► is maybe they have a second generation MPX module

02:43:14 ◼   ► that has Apple GPUs on it.

02:43:16 ◼   ► Maybe, as you said, maybe they partner with ATI to make some.

02:43:19 ◼   ► You think that's the most likely?

02:43:20 ◼   ► I think the most likely is that they have a system on a chip

02:43:23 ◼   ► that has a huge number of cores and is super fast,

02:43:26 ◼   ► and it has wimpy integrated graphics,

02:43:28 ◼   ► and they just support discrete GPUs.

02:43:32 ◼   ► Again, they've never done that before.

02:43:34 ◼   ► There's no precedent for it, but it is technically possible.

02:43:36 ◼   ► Right now, my Mac Pro's CPU has a GPU inside it, doesn't it?

02:43:41 ◼   ► Doesn't those eons have Intel's integrated graphics in them,

02:43:44 ◼   ► or am I crazy?

02:43:45 ◼   ► I think some of them do.

02:43:46 ◼   ► I don't think the ones they use do.

02:43:47 ◼   ► All right.

02:43:48 ◼   ► But anyway, as we've seen on laptops,

02:43:50 ◼   ► it's OK to have an integrated GPU on your CPU

02:43:53 ◼   ► and also have a discrete GPU.

02:43:55 ◼   ► That's a thing Apple does have experience

02:43:56 ◼   ► with on the Intel world.

02:43:58 ◼   ► What I'm saying is I don't expect them to make-- maybe

02:44:01 ◼   ► I'm wrong about this-- but I don't expect them to make

02:44:03 ◼   ► a custom system on a chip that rips out

02:44:05 ◼   ► all of the internal GPU stuff, because so much is tied

02:44:09 ◼   ► into that, just for the Mac Pro.

02:44:11 ◼   ► I expect them to make a system on a chip that's

02:44:13 ◼   ► like the world's beefiest iPad thing with 50 cores

02:44:18 ◼   ► or whatever, right?

02:44:19 ◼   ► And maybe some integrated GPU stuff

02:44:21 ◼   ► that the computer just ignores.

02:44:22 ◼   ► And then just have support for plain old external GPUs,

02:44:25 ◼   ► because there's no way around it.

02:44:27 ◼   ► If you look at what they do with those GPUs,

02:44:30 ◼   ► there's a reason you can put four of them

02:44:31 ◼   ► inside this computer.

02:44:32 ◼   ► It's not just for the hell of it.

02:44:34 ◼   ► And you can't fit those.

02:44:35 ◼   ► There's no system on a chip that can fit the compute power that

02:44:38 ◼   ► you can have in two of those dual GPU Vega II things.

02:44:41 ◼   ► That's just never going to happen.

02:44:43 ◼   ► And it would be pointless in a case this big,

02:44:45 ◼   ► because what are you filling all that space with?

02:44:47 ◼   ► So I am actually pretty excited to see

02:44:51 ◼   ► what they're going to come up with.

02:44:52 ◼   ► Because remember, it's not just competing with the Mac Pro

02:44:54 ◼   ► today.

02:44:54 ◼   ► It's competing with where the Mac Pro is

02:44:55 ◼   ► going to be in two years.

02:44:57 ◼   ► So they've got that work cut out for them at the high end.

02:44:59 ◼   ► Like, I have no problem with what they're

02:45:00 ◼   ► going to do in the middle.

02:45:01 ◼   ► Well, I mean, it's the Mac Pro.

02:45:02 ◼   ► Where it's going to be in two years

02:45:04 ◼   ► very well might be where it is today.

02:45:06 ◼   ► No, but not for the GPUs.

02:45:08 ◼   ► Like, I think they are actually going to upgrade the GPUs.

02:45:11 ◼   ► There will be new MPX modules that you can buy

02:45:14 ◼   ► that will keep cracking things up.

02:45:15 ◼   ► And they might even make a new afterburner card.

02:45:18 ◼   ► We'll see.

02:45:18 ◼   ► By the way, I looked this up before the show.

02:45:21 ◼   ► I'd mentioned that the consoles have a unified memory

02:45:23 ◼   ► architecture.

02:45:23 ◼   ► But I'm like, but wait a second.

02:45:24 ◼   ► Doesn't the PS5 have a slight bifurcation where

02:45:27 ◼   ► it uses slow RAM and fast RAM?

02:45:28 ◼   ► And I Googled for it intensely before the show

02:45:31 ◼   ► and could not find it.

02:45:32 ◼   ► M2Mike in the chat reminds me.

02:45:34 ◼   ► It's because it's not the PS5.

02:45:35 ◼   ► It's the Xbox.

02:45:36 ◼   ► For cost saving reasons, the Xbox Series X

02:45:38 ◼   ► has one pool of really fast RAM and one pool of slightly slower

02:45:41 ◼   ► RAM.

02:45:41 ◼   ► But that's neither here nor there.

02:45:44 ◼   ► Basically, they don't have dedicated VRAM

02:45:46 ◼   ► in this generation.

02:45:46 ◼   ► They may have two different pools of slightly different speed

02:45:49 ◼   ► RAM.

02:45:49 ◼   ► But all this is to say that I have no problem believing

02:45:56 ◼   ► that the ARM Macs that come out, like the ARM MacBook Pros,

02:46:00 ◼   ► will trounce any of the current Intel ones.

02:46:02 ◼   ► So don't worry about that.

02:46:03 ◼   ► Now, we don't know about the upcoming Intel ones,

02:46:05 ◼   ► because Apple announced, which is rare for them,

02:46:07 ◼   ► we will continue-- they could have not said this.

02:46:10 ◼   ► And I would have told you that it was going to be true anyway.

02:46:12 ◼   ► But they said we were going to make new Intel Macs.

02:46:15 ◼   ► And so I can totally see, for example, a redesigned iMac

02:46:19 ◼   ► coming out as an Intel Mac, and then

02:46:21 ◼   ► that same exact case in design being also

02:46:24 ◼   ► the first ARM-based iMac.

02:46:25 ◼   ► That would be super cool and perfectly fine with me.

02:46:28 ◼   ► And same thing with MacBook Pros.

02:46:29 ◼   ► I think they will continue to evolve right up

02:46:31 ◼   ► until someone rips out their guts

02:46:33 ◼   ► and puts ARM guts inside them.

02:46:35 ◼   ► Yeah, and I think also the GPU issue--

02:46:39 ◼   ► keep in mind that Apple's been making processor designs

02:46:42 ◼   ► for longer than they've been making GPU designs.

02:46:44 ◼   ► Maybe taking a little bit of extra time

02:46:45 ◼   ► to really get the GPU side of things going might help them.

02:46:48 ◼   ► So that's why I think it's probably wise to assume,

02:46:51 ◼   ► not just for power efficiency reasons,

02:46:54 ◼   ► but also for GPU sophistication reasons,

02:46:57 ◼   ► that the first ARM Macs are likely to be the ones that

02:47:00 ◼   ► use integrated GPUs.

02:47:01 ◼   ► And the last ARM Macs are the ones that basically the 16

02:47:05 ◼   ► inch, the iMac, at least the iMac Pro, and the Mac Pro,

02:47:08 ◼   ► those are probably going to be the last ones that switch over

02:47:11 ◼   ► to ARM because they need some kind of solution

02:47:14 ◼   ► to high end GPU stuff, whether it's Apple in-house or discrete

02:47:18 ◼   ► GPU support.

02:47:19 ◼   ► And that maybe they need a bit more time to get that right.

02:47:22 ◼   ► So I'm guessing first ARM Macs are the low power laptops

02:47:25 ◼   ► and maybe a low end iMac that is integrated only.

02:47:29 ◼   ► So getting back to what we were saying before,

02:47:31 ◼   ► Casey being said that the Mac will no longer be the machine

02:47:34 ◼   ► where you can run Mac apps natively

02:47:36 ◼   ► and run Windows apps natively and have

02:47:37 ◼   ► the best of both worlds.

02:47:39 ◼   ► We may be losing that if Windows doesn't follow Mac OS onto ARM.

02:47:44 ◼   ► But even if Windows doesn't follow,

02:47:46 ◼   ► we are gaining two things, which is now if you buy a Mac,

02:47:49 ◼   ► it will be a computer that you can run x86 Mac apps on

02:47:55 ◼   ► with translation, ARM Mac apps on, ARM Linux or whatever,

02:48:00 ◼   ► write in virtualization.

02:48:01 ◼   ► And also, apparently, all iOS and iPad apps unmodified.

02:48:07 ◼   ► This is amazing.

02:48:08 ◼   ► I don't know if we all saw that coming.

02:48:09 ◼   ► No.

02:48:10 ◼   ► Because if you had said that, think of it this way.

02:48:14 ◼   ► We've always known this has been technically possible.

02:48:17 ◼   ► We know that you can run those apps in x86.

02:48:19 ◼   ► That's when you run Xcode in the simulator.

02:48:20 ◼   ► It does that, right?

02:48:21 ◼   ► But they wouldn't do that.

02:48:22 ◼   ► Can you imagine a little iPhone app

02:48:24 ◼   ► and a little window on your Mac?

02:48:25 ◼   ► That would be weird.

02:48:27 ◼   ► Apple, they just went and did it.

02:48:30 ◼   ► And not only do they go and do it,

02:48:32 ◼   ► but if you are an app developer and you submit an app

02:48:36 ◼   ► to the App Store after whatever point,

02:48:39 ◼   ► Apple will put that app into the Mac App Store for you

02:48:43 ◼   ► unless you opt out.

02:48:45 ◼   ► So say you submit your iPad app and you forget to opt out.

02:48:47 ◼   ► Your iPad app appears in the Mac App Store.

02:48:49 ◼   ► Say you submit an iPhone app and you forget to opt out.

02:48:51 ◼   ► Your iPhone app will appear in the Mac App Store.

02:48:53 ◼   ► The Mac App Store just gained potentially literally millions

02:48:57 ◼   ► of applications.

02:48:58 ◼   ► And I have no idea how this is going to shake out,

02:49:01 ◼   ► but it is probably the biggest, most consequential

02:49:07 ◼   ► announcement in the whole ARM Mac thing.

02:49:10 ◼   ► And it is, I think, throwing everyone for a loop

02:49:12 ◼   ► because there are lots of good things that can happen.

02:49:14 ◼   ► There are lots of bad things that can happen.

02:49:16 ◼   ► But everybody is all in the mix now.

02:49:19 ◼   ► This is something I never would have seen coming.

02:49:22 ◼   ► I thought for sure that Apple's answer to this was Catalyst,

02:49:25 ◼   ► and that was it.

02:49:26 ◼   ► And this basically opts everyone in by default

02:49:30 ◼   ► to an automatic catalyst-y version of your app existing

02:49:34 ◼   ► on the Mac.

02:49:35 ◼   ► And this is only on ARM Macs.

02:49:37 ◼   ► This won't apply to Intel Macs.

02:49:38 ◼   ► But it's only on ARM Macs, but still.

02:49:40 ◼   ► Yeah, that's why they run unmodified,

02:49:42 ◼   ► because they're built for ARM.

02:49:43 ◼   ► You upload your binary or whatever to the App Store

02:49:46 ◼   ► for your iPhone app, and that exact iPhone app,

02:49:49 ◼   ► they just download those bits onto your Mac.

02:49:51 ◼   ► It's also on ARM CPU, and they just

02:49:53 ◼   ► run it in a little freaking window with a weird menu

02:49:55 ◼   ► bar and a bunch of other-- it's like, what?

02:49:58 ◼   ► For games and stuff, it makes perfect sense.

02:50:00 ◼   ► But the thing that kills me is the iPhone apps.

02:50:03 ◼   ► I can imagine them doing it with iPad apps.

02:50:05 ◼   ► But I guess go halfway, go full.

02:50:07 ◼   ► But anyway, what this means for Mac quote, unquote,

02:50:11 ◼   ► "Mac gaming" is that is there an iOS game that you think

02:50:15 ◼   ► is cool?

02:50:16 ◼   ► Run it on your Mac.

02:50:16 ◼   ► Zoom it to full screen.

02:50:17 ◼   ► Basically, games don't have any sort of--

02:50:21 ◼   ► you'll see a game-like UI.

02:50:23 ◼   ► This is going to be amazing for basically any iOS

02:50:27 ◼   ► game that you had enjoyed that you think you might also

02:50:29 ◼   ► enjoy on your Mac.

02:50:30 ◼   ► Just run it, whether it's a little-- like,

02:50:32 ◼   ► threes in a little window where you're swiping away,

02:50:34 ◼   ► or a full screen immersive app.

02:50:36 ◼   ► I don't think there's going to be any big renaissance of Mac

02:50:38 ◼   ► gaming, but I immediately thought of games

02:50:40 ◼   ► as the type of application where you don't care that it looks

02:50:43 ◼   ► nothing like the Mac, because it's a game.

02:50:46 ◼   ► Yeah, this is going to be a lot of fun, I think.

02:50:50 ◼   ► And there are certain apps where it's unlikely to come over.

02:50:53 ◼   ► So I can imagine things like big TV apps,

02:50:56 ◼   ► where they have rights issues.

02:50:58 ◼   ► Oh, you can't display-- we don't have the rights

02:51:00 ◼   ► to show this video on a computer screen, but we do want a tablet.

02:51:03 ◼   ► Like, I'm sure they're all going to opt out.

02:51:05 ◼   ► All those big company apps, they're all going to opt out.

02:51:07 ◼   ► But this is going to be really great for mostly indie apps,

02:51:10 ◼   ► and I think you're right, games also.

02:51:12 ◼   ► The fact that it's opted in by default,

02:51:14 ◼   ► and you have to manually opt out,

02:51:16 ◼   ► is great, because most small developers won't

02:51:19 ◼   ► have any reason to opt out.

02:51:20 ◼   ► So they'll just do it, which is very different from the--

02:51:24 ◼   ► you know, proposition for developing a catalyst app

02:51:26 ◼   ► was, like, you have to go explicitly do this thing.

02:51:29 ◼   ► Now, most of us-- if there's any demand for our apps on the Mac

02:51:34 ◼   ► at all, we should make catalyst apps, or actual Mac apps.

02:51:39 ◼   ► But, like, the catalyst apps will run on Intel Macs,

02:51:42 ◼   ► and this automatic ARM port of iOS apps won't.

02:51:46 ◼   ► So if you want to address the customer base,

02:51:49 ◼   ► obviously having an Intel port is pretty important for a while,

02:51:53 ◼   ► and catalyst is the way to do that.

02:51:56 ◼   ► But this is a really, really cool alternative,

02:51:58 ◼   ► and puts a really good stake in the ground for the future,

02:52:01 ◼   ► when ARM Macs are commonplace.

02:52:03 ◼   ► And then we'll just have this massive software

02:52:05 ◼   ► library available for most Macs out there.

02:52:09 ◼   ► Yeah, so the fear that people have

02:52:11 ◼   ► is that this is like the ultimate version of shovelware.

02:52:14 ◼   ► Developers didn't even need to do anything,

02:52:15 ◼   ► and suddenly their apps are just swarming your computer

02:52:18 ◼   ► if you want them to be.

02:52:19 ◼   ► And they're not Mac-like in any way.

02:52:21 ◼   ► They tried to do a bunch of stuff,

02:52:23 ◼   ► like, oh, if you change in dark mode,

02:52:24 ◼   ► we'll support that because we supported it on iOS.

02:52:26 ◼   ► Like, that's cool.

02:52:27 ◼   ► That works, right?

02:52:28 ◼   ► And oh, what if it has settings?

02:52:29 ◼   ► Well, we'll generate this weird, ugly, strange-looking UI

02:52:33 ◼   ► in the Mac, and we'll give you a menu,

02:52:34 ◼   ► and you can go to Preferences, and it'll

02:52:36 ◼   ► bring up the Settings bundle with an interface.

02:52:38 ◼   ► And there's a Quit command, which, as they said

02:52:40 ◼   ► in the presentation, is a thing that exists on the Mac.

02:52:42 ◼   ► So if you want to reflexively quit all of your iOS apps

02:52:46 ◼   ► on the Mac, you can do that too, right?

02:52:47 ◼   ► And even app extensions work.

02:52:49 ◼   ► They demoed, like, in the Mac version of Photos,

02:52:52 ◼   ► you can hit the Share sheet and pull up an app extension

02:52:56 ◼   ► from an iOS app.

02:52:57 ◼   ► So there's that cool--

02:52:58 ◼   ► I don't know if there's a Mac version too,

02:53:00 ◼   ► but it just came to mind.

02:53:01 ◼   ► Like, that machine learning thing

02:53:03 ◼   ► lets you erase stuff from pictures?

02:53:04 ◼   ► Who makes that?

02:53:05 ◼   ► Does Pixelmator make that?

02:53:07 ◼   ► Somebody makes a really cool iPad app

02:53:11 ◼   ► that lets you intelligently erase stuff from pictures.

02:53:13 ◼   ► And I always thought that was cool.

02:53:14 ◼   ► And every time I have occasion to use it,

02:53:16 ◼   ► I find myself on my Mac.

02:53:17 ◼   ► Now I could just download the app on my Mac

02:53:20 ◼   ► and use that Share extension to do that to my photos

02:53:22 ◼   ► in Mac Photos.

02:53:24 ◼   ► Just like Rosetta, they did an amazing job

02:53:26 ◼   ► of integrating this.

02:53:27 ◼   ► But in the end, it's not a Mac app.

02:53:30 ◼   ► It's not going to look like a Mac app.

02:53:32 ◼   ► This is the thing where there has been zero work done.

02:53:35 ◼   ► Like, the person who made this app

02:53:37 ◼   ► doesn't even know you're running it on a Mac.

02:53:39 ◼   ► That brings up a question that I thought

02:53:41 ◼   ► would be answered in the State of Union, but still wasn't,

02:53:43 ◼   ► is how the hell do you handle multi-touch?

02:53:47 ◼   ► People might think, oh, well, if you have a trackpad,

02:53:49 ◼   ► that solves the problem, doesn't it?

02:53:51 ◼   ► Not really, because actual multi-touch

02:53:54 ◼   ► lets you put multiple fingers on the screen

02:53:56 ◼   ► in arbitrary locations, but you just have one pointer.

02:53:59 ◼   ► So maybe for pinch to zoom and stuff,

02:54:00 ◼   ► you put the Mac cursor over the part that you want,

02:54:04 ◼   ► and then you do a pinch gesture on your thing,

02:54:06 ◼   ► and you're pinching at that location.

02:54:07 ◼   ► But what about actual multi-touch,

02:54:09 ◼   ► where you want to put multiple fingers

02:54:11 ◼   ► in arbitrary locations on an app?

02:54:14 ◼   ► OS apps and iPad OS can support that,

02:54:16 ◼   ► because they're on touch screens.

02:54:17 ◼   ► Eventually, Macs might be on touch screens,

02:54:19 ◼   ► and that'll solve this problem.

02:54:20 ◼   ► But in the meantime, what the hell do people

02:54:21 ◼   ► do when they want to multi-touch?

02:54:23 ◼   ► The simulator in Xcode has this weird thing

02:54:26 ◼   ► where you hold down the Option key with the cursor,

02:54:28 ◼   ► and it makes these two little ghost fingers.

02:54:30 ◼   ► There's a strange interface in the simulator

02:54:32 ◼   ► to try to simulate multi-touch, but it's not good.

02:54:36 ◼   ► Honestly, I don't know what will happen if you bring up,

02:54:40 ◼   ► say, Fruit Ninja or some other kind of thing

02:54:42 ◼   ► that wants you to do five-finger swipe across Fruit

02:54:44 ◼   ► to cut it into five pieces.

02:54:45 ◼   ► How do you play that game with a trackpad or a mouse?

02:54:50 ◼   ► Maybe you can't, and maybe it's just like,

02:54:52 ◼   ► oh, well, don't use games like that.

02:54:54 ◼   ► Maybe they're just hoping that touch Macs

02:54:56 ◼   ► will come out before this is an issue.

02:54:59 ◼   ► I don't know what the deal is,

02:55:00 ◼   ► but it was really weird for them

02:55:01 ◼   ► to not say anything about it.

02:55:02 ◼   ► They didn't demo it, they didn't say anything about it,

02:55:04 ◼   ► so as far as we know on keynote day, this is still a mystery.

02:55:08 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's gonna be really clunky

02:55:11 ◼   ► if they take the same approach as the simulator.

02:55:13 ◼   ► And this feels to me like one of those situations

02:55:16 ◼   ► where most people at Apple just don't use traditional mice,

02:55:19 ◼   ► not even the Magic Mouse.

02:55:21 ◼   ► I have no facts to back that up,

02:55:23 ◼   ► but it just feels like one of those situations

02:55:26 ◼   ► where it's like, oh, oh yeah, people use mice, huh,

02:55:29 ◼   ► like actual mice that they drag across their tabletop

02:55:32 ◼   ► and their desktop, huh, I forgot about those.

02:55:35 ◼   ► It just seems like an afterthought.

02:55:36 ◼   ► Now, who knows, maybe it'll be something

02:55:39 ◼   ► that they have thought about, I would hope,

02:55:41 ◼   ► and maybe it'll be better than it is on the simulator,

02:55:43 ◼   ► I would hope, but gosh,

02:55:44 ◼   ► you're exactly right on the simulator.

02:55:46 ◼   ► It's garbage. - And like I said,

02:55:47 ◼   ► if they use track pads, that doesn't help.

02:55:49 ◼   ► Track pad is not a solution to multi-touch

02:55:51 ◼   ► because you're not picking where in the UI

02:55:54 ◼   ► to touch your fingers.

02:55:55 ◼   ► That's just not how it works.

02:55:56 ◼   ► You have one cursor on the screen that's in one location,

02:55:58 ◼   ► and yes, then you can touch the track pad

02:56:00 ◼   ► with your multiple fingers and kinda sorta map them,

02:56:02 ◼   ► but that's not a solution, right?

02:56:05 ◼   ► That is one step better than just having a mouse maybe,

02:56:08 ◼   ► although honestly, with the Magic Mouse

02:56:10 ◼   ► with the swipey stuff on it, it's not that big of a deal.

02:56:11 ◼   ► Anyway, this is a problem that they need to solve.

02:56:14 ◼   ► Again, obvious solution is touch-based Macs,

02:56:16 ◼   ► which I think are coming, but in the meantime,

02:56:18 ◼   ► what's the deal, how is this gonna work?

02:56:20 ◼   ► I guess we'll all just download and install the betas

02:56:24 ◼   ► and find out for ourselves, but boy, this was a weird one.

02:56:27 ◼   ► It has a lot of really important implications

02:56:29 ◼   ► for the business of making apps for the Mac.

02:56:32 ◼   ► That thing I alluded to earlier

02:56:33 ◼   ► about the unification of the APIs

02:56:35 ◼   ► and what's gonna happen with AppKit and Catalyst and SwiftUI,

02:56:37 ◼   ► we don't have time to get into that

02:56:39 ◼   ► on this very long show already,

02:56:40 ◼   ► but stay tuned for future episodes

02:56:42 ◼   ► for more discussion of those topics.

02:56:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, we have so much more to say about all this stuff.

02:56:47 ◼   ► - We also have all of WWDC yet to go.

02:56:50 ◼   ► I mean, this is a typical Monday

02:56:52 ◼   ► where we got the keynote in the State of the Union,

02:56:54 ◼   ► but I think all of the videos

02:56:57 ◼   ► are dropping in one batch each morning.

02:56:59 ◼   ► I could be wrong about that, it's okay if I'm wrong,

02:57:01 ◼   ► but one way or another, there's gonna be a bunch of new

02:57:02 ◼   ► videos every single day for the next week or more.

02:57:05 ◼   ► So yes, this is going to be a very busy summer for ATP

02:57:08 ◼   ► in terms of talking about all this stuff,

02:57:10 ◼   ► and it's probably going to be a very busy summer

02:57:12 ◼   ► for all three of us for different reasons

02:57:14 ◼   ► working on leveraging all these new technologies.

02:57:17 ◼   ► Before we go, I do think it is worth

02:57:19 ◼   ► summing up very quickly kind of our thoughts.

02:57:22 ◼   ► And I'd also be curious to hear

02:57:24 ◼   ► each of your favorite thing, feature, platform,

02:57:29 ◼   ► whatever that you saw today.

02:57:31 ◼   ► For me, I am extremely impressed.

02:57:33 ◼   ► I'm very sad that I wasn't there in person.

02:57:36 ◼   ► This seems like it would have been raucous if we were there,

02:57:39 ◼   ► and that bums me out, not only for me,

02:57:41 ◼   ► but especially for the Apple engineers

02:57:42 ◼   ► that have worked so hard on this stuff.

02:57:44 ◼   ► I feel like this one would have been incredible

02:57:46 ◼   ► to see in person, and so I'm really sad about that.

02:57:49 ◼   ► But overall, this is a very impressive showing.

02:57:52 ◼   ► There's a lot here, so much here for us still to unpack.

02:57:55 ◼   ► If I had to pick a favorite thing, there's so much actually.

02:57:59 ◼   ► I'm really, really excited, as stupid as it may sound,

02:58:03 ◼   ► I'm really excited about those messages improvements.

02:58:05 ◼   ► I think that's gonna be super awesome,

02:58:07 ◼   ► and I'm really looking forward to trying that.

02:58:08 ◼   ► We'll see how well it works in reality.

02:58:10 ◼   ► I'm excited for messages to be on the Mac as a catalyst app,

02:58:13 ◼   ► and hopefully have the feature parity

02:58:15 ◼   ► that they've basically hinted toward if not said.

02:58:18 ◼   ► But overall, this was a really, really great day

02:58:21 ◼   ► for Apple fans, and I'm really looking forward

02:58:24 ◼   ► to the videos that are coming over the next week.

02:58:26 ◼   ► John, what do you think?

02:58:28 ◼   ► - I think this was the best crop of WWDC announcements

02:58:32 ◼   ► in a long time, and I say that having come off last year,

02:58:34 ◼   ► which was the Mac Pro, which I really loved,

02:58:36 ◼   ► there was so much good stuff in this presentation.

02:58:38 ◼   ► I'm the most excited about ARM Macs,

02:58:40 ◼   ► just because I'm really excited about ARM CPUs and hardware,

02:58:43 ◼   ► and I'm excited about CPU transitions.

02:58:45 ◼   ► Like, yes, I say this as someone who just bought

02:58:46 ◼   ► a really expensive Intel Mac, I'm excited about ARM Macs.

02:58:49 ◼   ► But honestly, everything on iOS 13 I saw,

02:58:52 ◼   ► I'm like, that's good, that's good, that's good,

02:58:53 ◼   ► this is all good stuff.

02:58:55 ◼   ► The Big Sur stuff is slightly upsetting,

02:58:57 ◼   ► but this is not my first rodeo,

02:58:58 ◼   ► I'm hoping they can get it all sorted out.

02:59:00 ◼   ► Like, I've seen all this before,

02:59:01 ◼   ► we all fretted over the leather stitching,

02:59:04 ◼   ► we fretted over Yosemite's flattening,

02:59:06 ◼   ► we fretted over the translucent menu bar

02:59:08 ◼   ► when it was in leopard, like I think that'll get worked out.

02:59:10 ◼   ► But overall, tons of exciting announcements.

02:59:14 ◼   ► I share your sadness that we didn't get to see this

02:59:16 ◼   ► in person, because this would have been,

02:59:18 ◼   ► I mean, can you imagine the buzz among all of us

02:59:21 ◼   ► like, discussing these things in a big stew of people?

02:59:24 ◼   ► Like, there's just so much to be excited and/or upset about.

02:59:27 ◼   ► So I think this was an amazing,

02:59:30 ◼   ► an amazing crop of WWDC announcements.

02:59:33 ◼   ► One of the biggest ever,

02:59:35 ◼   ► and I thought the presentation was pretty good too,

02:59:37 ◼   ► so fingers crossed for the future.

02:59:40 ◼   ► - Marco.

02:59:40 ◼   ► - It's hard for me to pick.

02:59:42 ◼   ► I'm happy to see that there is some progress

02:59:49 ◼   ► happening on the Mac in some pretty big ways.

02:59:51 ◼   ► - Yes, yes.

02:59:52 ◼   ► - Even though, as John said,

02:59:54 ◼   ► some of that is cause for a little bit of worrying,

02:59:58 ◼   ► or some of it, like, some of the UI changes,

03:00:00 ◼   ► as we mentioned, I think I probably don't like as much.

03:00:03 ◼   ► But, you know, we will get through that.

03:00:04 ◼   ► I am excited as an iOS developer.

03:00:07 ◼   ► I'm very excited about that the APIs

03:00:11 ◼   ► and the UI designs and everything,

03:00:14 ◼   ► what is like considered quote standard UI for iOS,

03:00:18 ◼   ► is advancing pretty quickly,

03:00:19 ◼   ► and is advancing in a direction that makes it

03:00:22 ◼   ► really toward the Mac and iPad unification.

03:00:26 ◼   ► And while unification, I think,

03:00:27 ◼   ► is kinda crappy for Mac users,

03:00:29 ◼   ► for iOS developers, it's wonderful.

03:00:31 ◼   ► Because we get to take our apps

03:00:33 ◼   ► that we mostly write for iOS

03:00:35 ◼   ► and just kinda make them happen

03:00:37 ◼   ► on the other platforms fairly easily.

03:00:39 ◼   ► So to see that kind of continue to march forward

03:00:43 ◼   ► and to take significant strides

03:00:44 ◼   ► is really good from the perspective of me

03:00:47 ◼   ► as an iOS developer, not necessarily as a Mac user.

03:00:49 ◼   ► And I'm also really excited about something

03:00:53 ◼   ► that we didn't even have time to talk about today,

03:00:55 ◼   ► which is the new app privacy opt-in stuff,

03:00:58 ◼   ► and tracking opt-in and privacy disclosure stuff.

03:01:01 ◼   ► I'm actually looking forward to that

03:01:03 ◼   ► because developers like me

03:01:05 ◼   ► who don't do creepy stuff with your data,

03:01:07 ◼   ► I think that will benefit us.

03:01:08 ◼   ► And I certainly, as a user,

03:01:10 ◼   ► that's another way, as I said earlier,

03:01:12 ◼   ► to shine a light on bad practices,

03:01:14 ◼   ► to kinda help tamp them down

03:01:15 ◼   ► and inform people what's going on.

03:01:17 ◼   ► That's a huge way to do that

03:01:19 ◼   ► that hopefully will work really well,

03:01:20 ◼   ► and we'll see how that actually works out in practice,

03:01:22 ◼   ► and especially in terms of enforcement.

03:01:24 ◼   ► But I'm excited about a whole bunch of small stuff like that.

03:01:28 ◼   ► And of course, I'm always a hardware nut,

03:01:29 ◼   ► so I'm super excited about speculation about our Macs

03:01:32 ◼   ► and what they might bring finally.

03:01:34 ◼   ► But yeah, otherwise, I, as a developer,

03:01:38 ◼   ► there's a lot here for me, which is good,

03:01:40 ◼   ► 'cause that's what this is for, right?

03:01:42 ◼   ► So I'm very much looking forward

03:01:44 ◼   ► to the developer side of it.

03:01:45 ◼   ► The user side of it, I think, will end up being okay,

03:01:47 ◼   ► but I do have the hesitations about the Mac theming stuff.

03:01:50 ◼   ► But otherwise, that's it for me.

03:01:53 ◼   ► So thanks a lot to our sponsors this week,

03:01:55 ◼   ► ExpressVPN, Basecamp, and Mac Weldon,

03:01:58 ◼   ► and we will see you next week.

03:02:01 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

03:02:03 ◼   ► ♪ Now the show is over ♪

03:02:06 ◼   ► ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

03:02:08 ◼   ► ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

03:02:10 ◼   ► ♪ Accidental ♪

03:02:11 ◼   ► ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

03:02:13 ◼   ► ♪ Accidental ♪

03:02:14 ◼   ► ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

03:02:16 ◼   ► ♪ Marco and Casey wouldn't let him ♪

03:02:19 ◼   ► ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

03:02:20 ◼   ► ♪ Accidental ♪

03:02:21 ◼   ► ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

03:02:23 ◼   ► ♪ Accidental ♪

03:02:24 ◼   ► ♪ And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM ♪

03:02:29 ◼   ► ♪ And if you're into Twitter ♪

03:02:32 ◼   ► ♪ You can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S ♪

03:02:37 ◼   ► ♪ So that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M ♪

03:02:43 ◼   ► ♪ N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N-S-I-R-A-C ♪

03:02:48 ◼   ► ♪ U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A ♪

03:02:50 ◼   ► ♪ It's accidental ♪

03:02:52 ◼   ► ♪ It's accidental ♪

03:02:54 ◼   ► ♪ They didn't mean to accidental ♪

03:02:57 ◼   ► ♪ Accidental ♪

03:02:59 ◼   ► ♪ Tech podcast so long ♪

03:03:04 ◼   ► - You know, I am excited about the ARM transition,

03:03:05 ◼   ► but I feel like it's all so nebulous right now

03:03:07 ◼   ► that it doesn't even feel real.

03:03:11 ◼   ► And I think as we start seeing hardware

03:03:14 ◼   ► and we start seeing the DTKs end up in people's hands,

03:03:18 ◼   ► I think I'll get more and more excited about it.

03:03:20 ◼   ► And I also forgot to mention a moment ago

03:03:21 ◼   ► that store kit debugging, mm-mm-mm, I'm excited for that.

03:03:26 ◼   ► - The big thing about the ARM stuff is we know

03:03:28 ◼   ► that there are new Macs that are gonna be unlike anything

03:03:30 ◼   ► we've seen before coming.

03:03:31 ◼   ► Like it's one time we actually know,

03:03:33 ◼   ► and we know in what way they're gonna be different.

03:03:35 ◼   ► They're gonna have a whole different CPU,

03:03:36 ◼   ► it's gonna be system on a chips,

03:03:37 ◼   ► and it's just gonna be like, you know,

03:03:40 ◼   ► and again, they're gonna be better.

03:03:42 ◼   ► They're gonna be faster,

03:03:43 ◼   ► they're gonna have better battery life.

03:03:44 ◼   ► Like Apple wouldn't be doing it if they weren't better.

03:03:46 ◼   ► And of course they're newer,

03:03:47 ◼   ► just newer hardware is always better.

03:03:48 ◼   ► So that's what's exciting.

03:03:50 ◼   ► And they gave timelines, two year period,

03:03:52 ◼   ► first Mac within this year.

03:03:54 ◼   ► So, you know, things are looking super interesting

03:03:57 ◼   ► for the future.

03:03:58 ◼   ► - And do you read the statement

03:04:00 ◼   ► that it'll be a two year transition to mean

03:04:03 ◼   ► there will not be any Intel Macs sold in two years?

03:04:06 ◼   ► Or any new Intel Macs sold in two years?

03:04:09 ◼   ► 'Cause that's the only interpretation

03:04:10 ◼   ► that I can come up with.

03:04:11 ◼   ► But did I misread that?

03:04:12 ◼   ► - Not sold.

03:04:13 ◼   ► I think that at the end of two years,

03:04:16 ◼   ► their entire product line will be available

03:04:18 ◼   ► with ARM CPUs in it.

03:04:20 ◼   ► Whether they continue to sell Intel ones,

03:04:22 ◼   ► of course they will, 'cause you know, refurbs,

03:04:23 ◼   ► and maybe they'll keep a model around and blah, blah, blah.

03:04:25 ◼   ► But it's like, we finished the transition,

03:04:27 ◼   ► so pick a product line.

03:04:28 ◼   ► Small laptop, medium laptop, big laptop, iMac, desktop,

03:04:31 ◼   ► mini, there'll be ARM versions of all of those.

03:04:34 ◼   ► That's what I presume the definition.

03:04:36 ◼   ► And obviously, any company making announcements

03:04:39 ◼   ► two years in advance, like, you know,

03:04:42 ◼   ► that's what their plan is, we'll see how it works out.

03:04:44 ◼   ► You have to give them a little bit of leeway,

03:04:45 ◼   ► it's very difficult to plan something that's complicated

03:04:48 ◼   ► two years in advance.

03:04:49 ◼   ► 'Cause lots of stuff can change totally unrelated

03:04:50 ◼   ► to ARM CPUs that can, you know, change things.

03:04:54 ◼   ► But yeah, I'm not gonna hold them down to the day, right?

03:04:58 ◼   ► But giving two years is like, look,

03:04:59 ◼   ► this isn't gonna happen in six months,

03:05:01 ◼   ► and it's not even gonna happen in a year, so.

03:05:02 ◼   ► And this should make people feel better

03:05:04 ◼   ► about their Intel Macs they just bought, Casey.

03:05:06 ◼   ► 'Cause, you know, like, even if, like,

03:05:09 ◼   ► it'll be supported for a long time.

03:05:11 ◼   ► Like, the real question is when do they stop shipping

03:05:13 ◼   ► a version of Mac OS that has Intel code in it?

03:05:17 ◼   ► And that's gonna be even longer than two years.

03:05:19 ◼   ► So I think everyone will be fine.

03:05:21 ◼   ► I wanted to ask Marco, 'cause a lot of people

03:05:22 ◼   ► are gonna ask this, and the after show is a good place

03:05:24 ◼   ► for you to chime in briefly.

03:05:26 ◼   ► What does this do to your odds

03:05:27 ◼   ► of creating a catalyst version of Overcast?

03:05:31 ◼   ► - It certainly increases them.

03:05:32 ◼   ► One thing that caught my eye in particular

03:05:34 ◼   ► is the native split view support for three column mode.

03:05:37 ◼   ► And the, 'cause, you know, split view,

03:05:39 ◼   ► until now, has been two column only.

03:05:41 ◼   ► So that's going to, and so basically,

03:05:43 ◼   ► I've had to write my own split view

03:05:44 ◼   ► in a number of, for a number of occasions,

03:05:46 ◼   ► for a number of times.

03:05:47 ◼   ► There's the significant challenge

03:05:50 ◼   ► for UI unification and everything of old OS support.

03:05:54 ◼   ► Right now, I still support iOS 12.

03:05:56 ◼   ► This is the first year I've ever, like,

03:05:58 ◼   ► held onto the previous iOS version compatibility

03:06:00 ◼   ► for any meaningful amount of time,

03:06:03 ◼   ► because I went 13 only very briefly last fall,

03:06:06 ◼   ► and it got me in a lot of trouble, basically.

03:06:08 ◼   ► I angered a lot of people, and I grossly underestimated

03:06:12 ◼   ► how many new installations I would lose

03:06:16 ◼   ► by requiring only the latest OS,

03:06:18 ◼   ► because there were still a lot of people

03:06:19 ◼   ► on devices that couldn't run iOS 13,

03:06:21 ◼   ► and iOS 13 was so buggy that a lot of people

03:06:24 ◼   ► didn't adopt it very quickly, and I can't blame them.

03:06:26 ◼   ► I actually recommended it.

03:06:27 ◼   ► So the real question for me is, like,

03:06:31 ◼   ► can I require 13 anytime soon, even?

03:06:33 ◼   ► And then if I require 13, can I require 14?

03:06:35 ◼   ► 'Cause 13 and 14 have the same device compatibility,

03:06:37 ◼   ► I think.

03:06:39 ◼   ► So if I can require 14 sometime, like,

03:06:44 ◼   ► by midwinter, like sometime during, like,

03:06:47 ◼   ► an early part of the year,

03:06:49 ◼   ► or if I decide, you know, F it, and I just require it anyway,

03:06:53 ◼   ► then I will be much more inclined to do a big UI redesign

03:06:57 ◼   ► this year that will make catalyst not suck,

03:07:02 ◼   ► that will use all this new stuff.

03:07:04 ◼   ► I have other considerations, too, like,

03:07:06 ◼   ► do I keep my custom font?

03:07:09 ◼   ► You know, like, right now, every time I turn off

03:07:11 ◼   ► my custom font on iOS, it looks like it's,

03:07:15 ◼   ► oh, this is an overcast anymore,

03:07:17 ◼   ► and I hear the same thing from a lot of friends and users,

03:07:20 ◼   ► like, you know, I love the custom font,

03:07:22 ◼   ► but it's hard to design and develop an app

03:07:26 ◼   ► using your own custom font now that would look good

03:07:29 ◼   ► with all this new UI paradigm.

03:07:32 ◼   ► Certainly I wouldn't wanna use a custom font on the Mac,

03:07:33 ◼   ► that would look weird, I think.

03:07:35 ◼   ► I don't use a custom font on the watch, that looks weird.

03:07:37 ◼   ► But do I use it on the iPad or on the phone?

03:07:41 ◼   ► Like, there's issues with that I have to work out,

03:07:44 ◼   ► and I, so if I, like, ideally,

03:07:47 ◼   ► if I was starting from scratch today,

03:07:49 ◼   ► making a whole scratch app

03:07:51 ◼   ► or at least a whole scratch UI redesign,

03:07:53 ◼   ► I would probably not have a custom font at all.

03:07:56 ◼   ► I'd use a system font for everything,

03:07:57 ◼   ► I would try to make it as system default as possible,

03:08:00 ◼   ► and there's lots of reasons why I would wanna do that,

03:08:03 ◼   ► but, you know, critical eviction in this case is, like,

03:08:06 ◼   ► you would get so much of this cross-platform UI

03:08:10 ◼   ► with very little effort,

03:08:12 ◼   ► and right now I don't have the situation.

03:08:14 ◼   ► Right now I have an extremely, surprisingly complicated,

03:08:19 ◼   ► surprisingly custom UI that is specifically designed

03:08:23 ◼   ► to work decently well on the phone,

03:08:26 ◼   ► to kinda work on the iPad,

03:08:28 ◼   ► and not at all to work on the Mac.

03:08:30 ◼   ► And I, for lots of reasons, there is a lot of heft

03:08:34 ◼   ► and cruft in that API, or in the UI that I have now.

03:08:40 ◼   ► And so I've been meaning for a while

03:08:42 ◼   ► to basically throw it away and start over

03:08:45 ◼   ► and make something totally modern

03:08:47 ◼   ► that would go from one to three columns

03:08:50 ◼   ► and look good on the Mac and iPad and phone and everything,

03:08:54 ◼   ► but that's gonna be a lot of work

03:08:57 ◼   ► that will require a newer OS than I currently require,

03:09:00 ◼   ► at least one, and ideally I'd be using Swift UI, maybe,

03:09:05 ◼   ► so I had to learn that, and that's in flux still,

03:09:08 ◼   ► so there's a whole bunch of stuff

03:09:09 ◼   ► where a few years from now,

03:09:12 ◼   ► I almost certainly want to be there,

03:09:14 ◼   ► but the path to get from here to there might be very messy,

03:09:18 ◼   ► and I am very hesitant to start down that path.

03:09:21 ◼   ► - I was mostly asking with the idea

03:09:25 ◼   ► that you would be demotivated from the work

03:09:27 ◼   ► that you just described by the fact

03:09:29 ◼   ► that you could just run the iPhone version

03:09:31 ◼   ► or the iPad version right on your Mac without any changes.

03:09:33 ◼   ► - Oh, if that was not ARM only,

03:09:36 ◼   ► if that also applied to Big Sur running on Intel,

03:09:39 ◼   ► that would be a very tempting procrastination win

03:09:42 ◼   ► to just be like, you know what,

03:09:43 ◼   ► I'm just gonna not ever do this,

03:09:45 ◼   ► 'cause the reality is that's not gonna result

03:09:48 ◼   ► in a lot of great Mac apps,

03:09:49 ◼   ► but Overcast doesn't need to be a great Mac app,

03:09:52 ◼   ► 'cause it's complicating everything I just said,

03:09:56 ◼   ► is that as much as I care about making Overcast,

03:09:58 ◼   ► this wonderful cross-platform,

03:09:59 ◼   ► first-class Apple platform citizen,

03:10:03 ◼   ► the reality is that it's mostly an iPhone app.

03:10:05 ◼   ► Almost no one uses it on their iPads.

03:10:08 ◼   ► No one uses the website, effectively no one,

03:10:10 ◼   ► and so it basically is an iPhone app,

03:10:14 ◼   ► and I'm putting a lot more effort

03:10:17 ◼   ► into other platform support

03:10:19 ◼   ► than it probably actually warrants.

03:10:21 ◼   ► That's not to say I'm not gonna do it, 'cause I want it,

03:10:24 ◼   ► but ultimately, Overcast should be designed primarily

03:10:29 ◼   ► and by far for the iPhone,

03:10:32 ◼   ► and supporting any other platform

03:10:34 ◼   ► is actually pretty, hugely unimportant.

03:10:37 ◼   ► - Yeah, you get that modernization

03:10:38 ◼   ► that you just described eventually.

03:10:39 ◼   ► You'll have just a flexible UI that works on any screen size,

03:10:42 ◼   ► it works on iOS, iPadOS, and the Mac,

03:10:44 ◼   ► and you can do that once and do it well,

03:10:46 ◼   ► and you'll cover most of the basics,

03:10:47 ◼   ► 'cause in the end, Overcast is mostly a self-contained thing.

03:10:51 ◼   ► It doesn't need extensive menu bar structure

03:10:53 ◼   ► and customizable toolbars and context menus.

03:10:56 ◼   ► What the interface does is well-represented

03:11:00 ◼   ► by the actual interface,

03:11:01 ◼   ► and in the end, people just wanna listen to their podcasts

03:11:03 ◼   ► and keep track of where they were across all the platforms,

03:11:06 ◼   ► and so in the meantime,

03:11:07 ◼   ► while you're working on this big change,

03:11:09 ◼   ► if people just run it on their ARM Mac,

03:11:11 ◼   ► the iPhone version of their ARM Mac,

03:11:13 ◼   ► that's solving the problem for them,

03:11:14 ◼   ► which is I wanna keep listening to that podcast

03:11:15 ◼   ► I was listening to before,

03:11:16 ◼   ► and my podcasts are in Overcast, so that'll work out fine.

03:11:19 ◼   ► So I'm looking forward to that.

03:11:20 ◼   ► I use the web UI occasionally for that,

03:11:21 ◼   ► but being able to just launch the iPhone app

03:11:24 ◼   ► and have it sync and everything

03:11:25 ◼   ► is way better than manually finding the episode

03:11:28 ◼   ► and doing all that business with the web UI.

03:11:32 ◼   ► Oh, and I think we have to add this.

03:11:33 ◼   ► Hello, people who managed to make it

03:11:35 ◼   ► this far into the podcast.

03:11:36 ◼   ► Congratulations, the few, the proud

03:11:38 ◼   ► who have made it to the end.

03:11:39 ◼   ► Maybe you listened to this whole podcast,

03:11:41 ◼   ► said I should send a tweet and/or email to the ATP guys

03:11:44 ◼   ► to tell them they didn't realize

03:11:46 ◼   ► that they changed the version number.

03:11:48 ◼   ► Well, yes, we did.

03:11:48 ◼   ► In fact, I saw it in the palace screen

03:11:50 ◼   ► when they first brought it up.

03:11:52 ◼   ► This is Big Sur is not 10.16.

03:11:55 ◼   ► It is 11.0.

03:11:57 ◼   ► People haven't been keeping track of the naming.

03:12:00 ◼   ► The Roman numeral 10 capital letter X

03:12:03 ◼   ► left the Mac operating system a while ago,

03:12:06 ◼   ► but they kept calling it 10 dot whatever.

03:12:09 ◼   ► We made it up to 10.15, but there will be no 10.16.

03:12:12 ◼   ► We're going to 11 and they can do that

03:12:14 ◼   ► because it's just a version number.

03:12:17 ◼   ► It's no longer represented in the branded name of the thing.

03:12:19 ◼   ► So you don't have to change it to XI 11 Roman numeral

03:12:22 ◼   ► or anything like that.

03:12:23 ◼   ► So that's cool, but I bet it's gonna break

03:12:25 ◼   ► a bunch of people's version number checks in their code

03:12:27 ◼   ► because that happens every time this happens.

03:12:30 ◼   ► So when you're porting to ARM and porting to Big Sur,

03:12:33 ◼   ► don't forget if you weren't already using

03:12:36 ◼   ► all of the correct macros for your version number check

03:12:38 ◼   ► instead of you doing something naughty, guess what?

03:12:40 ◼   ► The number after the decimal point

03:12:42 ◼   ► is not going to be greater than 15.

03:12:43 ◼   ► In fact, it's going to be zero.

03:12:45 ◼   ► Look at the other number.

03:12:45 ◼   ► It's 11 now.

03:12:46 ◼   ► - Also to save us from a lot of potential follow up

03:12:50 ◼   ► that people have probably already written

03:12:52 ◼   ► and already emailed before they got here,

03:12:54 ◼   ► then they're gonna email us a second time saying,

03:12:55 ◼   ► oh, I'm sorry, I didn't listen to the end.

03:12:57 ◼   ► Now we have two emails, thanks.

03:12:59 ◼   ► - I know, I enjoy when someone sends me a message

03:13:03 ◼   ► and I know that they listen like 30 more seconds.

03:13:05 ◼   ► In this case, if you listen three more hours,

03:13:08 ◼   ► they'll learn that in fact we did all notice

03:13:10 ◼   ► that it changed to 11.

03:13:11 ◼   ► And I think that's cool, honestly.

03:13:13 ◼   ► When the number after the decimal point

03:13:14 ◼   ► starts getting too big, it gets unwieldy.

03:13:16 ◼   ► This is a perfect point to change to 11.

03:13:19 ◼   ► Some of the chats suggested that maybe 11.0

03:13:21 ◼   ► was just for the ARM version.

03:13:22 ◼   ► Now it's gonna be for all of them.

03:13:23 ◼   ► I say that based on no information,

03:13:25 ◼   ► but I am super confident.

03:13:27 ◼   ► - And it is kind of like maybe they should have considered

03:13:30 ◼   ► making it 14 to match iOS, but you know, that's--

03:13:33 ◼   ► - No.

03:13:34 ◼   ► (laughing)

03:13:35 ◼   ► iOS has, the iOS already has in the midst

03:13:37 ◼   ► of its own numbering problem,

03:13:38 ◼   ► which is when you start to get them to those high numbers,

03:13:40 ◼   ► it gets weird.

03:13:41 ◼   ► Mac OS gets to go to 11.0 and then they got .1 and .2.

03:13:46 ◼   ► They got this long runaway of smooth, easy version numbers

03:13:49 ◼   ► until they get up to 11.15

03:13:51 ◼   ► and then they have to change their mind again.

03:13:53 ◼   ► - Anyway, so also to save us, as I was saying,

03:13:56 ◼   ► from even more email, we are very much aware

03:14:00 ◼   ► that there's large things that we didn't cover yet,

03:14:02 ◼   ► such as literally right before we recorded,

03:14:05 ◼   ► people discovered there's this new,

03:14:06 ◼   ► or Apple posted this new announcement

03:14:08 ◼   ► about how later this summer they're gonna have a thing

03:14:09 ◼   ► where you can challenge app store rules

03:14:11 ◼   ► during your review or something.

03:14:12 ◼   ► We saw that blow by.

03:14:14 ◼   ► We were already recording.

03:14:16 ◼   ► So we'll look into that and once there's something

03:14:19 ◼   ► to cover on the show, we'll cover that at some point.

03:14:21 ◼   ► So there's gonna be lots of stuff like that.

03:14:23 ◼   ► There is so much to say.

03:14:25 ◼   ► We're already three hours in.

03:14:26 ◼   ► There's gonna be so much more to say.

03:14:28 ◼   ► So we will get to it in later episodes.

03:14:30 ◼   ► Don't worry about that.

03:14:31 ◼   ► - Wait, I gotta save myself again

03:14:32 ◼   ► 'cause apparently the chat room's telling me

03:14:33 ◼   ► that 11.0 is just a marketing number

03:14:35 ◼   ► and the real version is 10.16 under the covers?

03:14:38 ◼   ► No, is that true? - Wait, what?

03:14:39 ◼   ► That was, I assume that was a joke.

03:14:41 ◼   ► - I really, I don't know.

03:14:43 ◼   ► Well, we just saw the keynote, so we don't know.

03:14:45 ◼   ► I don't have Big Sur installed, so I can't check.

03:14:47 ◼   ► But I believe the about screen was showing me

03:14:49 ◼   ► the real version number and I thought it was 11.0.

03:14:52 ◼   ► Please don't email us.

03:14:53 ◼   ► By the time you listen to this show,

03:14:54 ◼   ► we will have found out by actually installing the beta OS

03:14:57 ◼   ► and we will have a follow up next week.

03:14:59 ◼   ► (beeping)