ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► It's been so long since we've talked. I know, I feel like it's been far, far too long.

00:00:05 ◼   ► I did tear apart my entire beach office and put it back together. Why? I finally got like

00:00:10 ◼   ► the setup I wanted in most ways. Like I try it. One of the ways that I'm different at

00:00:16 ◼   ► the beach is that I try to have as minimal of a setup as possible. Now this is still

00:00:21 ◼   ► me here, so I still have, you know, speakers and a carplay dev kit and all this, you know,

00:00:27 ◼   ► and I still have a lot of stuff here, but I try to keep it simpler than what I have

00:00:33 ◼   ► in my regular life. Anyway, so yeah, took apart the whole thing, rewired, I finally

00:00:38 ◼   ► did like the zip ties in the back and then of course as you do, instantly upon zip tying

00:00:43 ◼   ► a bunch of cables together, I would realize, oh, I want to put one more cable in there.

00:00:46 ◼   ► - Yep, that's the rules.

00:00:47 ◼   ► - Yep, break that zip tie or just put another one on top of the whole bundle and then you

00:00:51 ◼   ► have like four different levels of zip ties simultaneously working with each other.

00:00:54 ◼   ► - Oh God, poor Steven Hackett is getting so stressed.

00:00:57 ◼   ► - You gotta get the Velcro ones. Don't use actual zip ties, it's way overkill for wires.

00:01:01 ◼   ► The Velcro ones is much nicer than you can just un-Velcro and re-Velcro there.

00:01:04 ◼   ► - I have some of those. The kind I got for the beach is not a very good one. Like I just

00:01:11 ◼   ► got some Amazon generic one thinking it would be as good as the Monoprice ones I have from

00:01:15 ◼   ► a few years back and it's totally not. The Monoprice ones are way better than whatever

00:01:18 ◼   ► the generic one is that I got, but I figured they'll all be the same, but nope. Anyway,

00:01:23 ◼   ► the problem with the Velcro ties, first of all they collect tons of dust and hair and

00:01:27 ◼   ► everything on the Velcro side. Second of all, they are bulkier and then third of all they

00:01:32 ◼   ► tend to slide down the cables if it's a vertical cable. You can try to do it really tight and

00:01:37 ◼   ► it'll stay a little bit better there, but it will still slide way more than a zip tie

00:01:41 ◼   ► will.

00:01:42 ◼   ► - I wonder if you're talking about the same product. The ones I'm talking about are smooth

00:01:44 ◼   ► on the outside, they're very thin, they thread through themselves and they do not move. You

00:01:48 ◼   ► should have sent me a link to what you're getting.

00:01:51 ◼   ► - I wouldn't necessarily describe mine as very thin. And mine come in the multi-color

00:01:56 ◼   ► pack, so you know it's like all the primary colors of Velcro.

00:02:00 ◼   ► - I don't have any colored ones, but that doesn't mean they don't come with semi-like.

00:02:03 ◼   ► - I gotta find it, hold on.

00:02:05 ◼   ► - It's in your order history.

00:02:07 ◼   ► - You know I had terrible luck with my Amazon order history search recently. It seems like

00:02:11 ◼   ► the search of your order history has gotten way worse. Like it won't find stuff based

00:02:15 ◼   ► on pretty basic keywords that occur in it. Oh here we go, yeah. Monoprice 106463.

00:02:23 ◼   ► - Those look kind of similar, but mine are not that shape. I think it's the same concept,

00:02:29 ◼   ► but yeah I think the quality really varies. I mean you said these are the good ones, but

00:02:33 ◼   ► they look wider than the ones I'm talking about and the slip through mechanism looks

00:02:37 ◼   ► different. I don't know, I wouldn't give up on the Velcro. All the problems you described

00:02:41 ◼   ► to them about collecting dust and stuff and not holding it, I have not experienced at

00:02:45 ◼   ► all. My whole TV is put together with these things and they do not move and there's no

00:02:50 ◼   ► undue dust collection and they're not as fuzzy on the outside as these. They actually look

00:02:54 ◼   ► like they're made of plastic, but it just has the stuff. Anyway, zip ties, like actual

00:02:58 ◼   ► real zip ties, those are, I would never actually use those unless it was something serious

00:03:03 ◼   ► and like structural.

00:03:04 ◼   ► - No it's great because like you buy a bag of like 200 of them for nothing and you know

00:03:10 ◼   ► the downside is whenever you change your mind you gotta cut them.

00:03:13 ◼   ► - And then you can accidentally cut the cable if you're not being careful and then they

00:03:16 ◼   ► can be squeezing the cables too much if you tightened it up too much, it's bad.

00:03:19 ◼   ► - If you're an animal, like yeah obviously, but like if you use them carefully it's fine.

00:03:23 ◼   ► - No, it's Velcro, it's something gross, but anyway by the way, the thing I learned

00:03:26 ◼   ► when I was a very very small child, if you ever want to undo zip ties without cutting

00:03:30 ◼   ► them, a sewing needle is your best friend.

00:03:32 ◼   ► - I didn't know that.

00:03:33 ◼   ► - The thing you have in the house, I mean obviously tons of things will work, but a

00:03:36 ◼   ► sewing needle will disengage the little ratchety thing and you can just take them right off

00:03:39 ◼   ► without cutting them.

00:03:40 ◼   ► - Oh that's interesting, you can actually like lift up the little latches inside there

00:03:43 ◼   ► and loop it back through?

00:03:44 ◼   ► - Yeah you just shove the sewing needle between the two little things because it's really

00:03:47 ◼   ► thin at the tip and it's wider as it goes down and it will just open it up enough for

00:03:51 ◼   ► you to just take it right off and everyone has a sewing needle because if you try to

00:03:54 ◼   ► use like a jewelry screwdriver or like the tip of a knife, nothing works, but a needle

00:03:58 ◼   ► will do it.

00:03:59 ◼   ► - Interesting, look at that, life hack from John Syracuse.

00:04:02 ◼   ► - Yeah, they didn't call them life hacks when I was five and then you had to undo zip ties

00:04:06 ◼   ► and things and I would undo them by the way for the same reason, well not the same reason,

00:04:09 ◼   ► but I wouldn't have a pack of 100 of them, I'd have like one or two zip ties and I'd

00:04:12 ◼   ► realize I needed to take it off and then I said there's got to be a way to take these

00:04:16 ◼   ► on and off about destroying them and that's what it is, sewing needle.

00:04:20 ◼   ► Today I learned.

00:04:21 ◼   ► Be careful with the wires because you can still poke the wire with the needle, like

00:04:23 ◼   ► obviously I wasn't zip tying wires, like there is still a danger but it is much less.

00:04:27 ◼   ► - Unfortunately I have way more zip ties than sewing needles so I'm probably still going

00:04:31 ◼   ► to keep doing it my way, but that's a good hack.

00:04:36 ◼   ► - The end of the show, Kyle's the Gray has things to say about public policy advocacy.

00:04:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, he just wanted to clarify, just listen back to quote unquote last week's episode

00:04:46 ◼   ► and at one point I made a blanket statement about how all these companies give to both

00:04:51 ◼   ► political parties, yada yada yada and not Kyle's the Gray but Kyle Seth Gray pointed

00:04:56 ◼   ► out that unlike all the other companies, I think Apple does, this is from Apple's own

00:05:02 ◼   ► webpage quoting now, "Apple does not make political contributions to individual candidates

00:05:07 ◼   ► or parties and we do not have a political action committee."

00:05:09 ◼   ► They do have lobbyists but they don't give directly to candidates and that is not true

00:05:13 ◼   ► of most other big companies and most other tech companies so credit where credit is due.

00:05:17 ◼   ► We will put a link in the show notes to Apple's public policy advocacy webpage where you can

00:05:22 ◼   ► read about this.

00:05:23 ◼   ► - I actually didn't know that, that's interesting.

00:05:25 ◼   ► - Yeah, I didn't know that either.

00:05:27 ◼   ► I had assumed as you that they do the sleazy advocacy and what's the word I'm looking for?

00:05:34 ◼   ► The thing where you send people to, oh lobby, there it is.

00:05:38 ◼   ► - No, they have lobbyists but they don't contribute directly to candidates or parties.

00:05:42 ◼   ► - Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, that is a fine line there.

00:05:43 ◼   ► - They have fewer lobbyists than other companies.

00:05:45 ◼   ► There was one thing that came up before these hearings showing how many lobbyists the various

00:05:50 ◼   ► companies have.

00:05:51 ◼   ► They have on their below average number of lobbyists among their peers but like Google

00:05:56 ◼   ► and I think Facebook and much like how we give directly to candidates like they give

00:06:00 ◼   ► the maximum amount you're allowed for corporate donations.

00:06:03 ◼   ► They don't have a political action committee, a PAC which is another way to get money to

00:06:06 ◼   ► people so maybe it's a distinction without a difference but I think it's significant

00:06:11 ◼   ► enough that I shouldn't have lumped them in with everybody else.

00:06:15 ◼   ► - And then tell me about Big Sur and Catalina and APFS.

00:06:20 ◼   ► - I haven't tested this yet but I've seen multiple reports that Mac OS 10.15.6 which

00:06:26 ◼   ► is the latest Catalina update now understands Big Sur's new APFS volume format so you won't

00:06:31 ◼   ► get that message in the finder when you reboot into Catalina that says I don't understand

00:06:37 ◼   ► this this format of this weird disk here.

00:06:41 ◼   ► I haven't had my, I have a bunch of stuff running that like prevents external drives

00:06:45 ◼   ► from mounting like back in the old days I would just not turn on my external drives

00:06:50 ◼   ► but of course all my drives are now like SSDs and they're bus powered so if they're plugged

00:06:54 ◼   ► into my computer they're powered but that's the application I talked about a while back

00:06:58 ◼   ► Mountain or whatever you can just tell it not to mount them automatically and so they

00:07:02 ◼   ► don't appear so I never see that message but in theory if I was to mount that drive now

00:07:06 ◼   ► it would be able to it would be mountable and visible in Catalina which is nice because

00:07:09 ◼   ► it's always annoying when the old operating system can't see any something about the new

00:07:13 ◼   ► operating system and vice versa so assuming this is true I'm very happy.

00:07:19 ◼   ► I haven't tried booting Catalina, oh no I did boot Catalina earlier tonight and I don't

00:07:25 ◼   ► remember seeing that message so I think that's accurate I don't even know but that is good

00:07:30 ◼   ► and because that that that notification I forget exactly what the verbiage was we talked

00:07:34 ◼   ► about on the show but it was it was alarming to me because I guess I just didn't know what

00:07:38 ◼   ► was happening and once you think about it it's like okay that makes sense but at the

00:07:41 ◼   ► time I was like oh god what happened here so so yeah I'm glad that's fixed improved

00:07:46 ◼   ► etc.

00:07:47 ◼   ► Anytime you get that disk isn't recognized or error or anything like that it makes you

00:07:52 ◼   ► freak out a little bit because exactly because like what do you mean disk doesn't recognize

00:07:56 ◼   ► you know the old Mac OS would always say do you want to initialize it and you're like

00:08:00 ◼   ► no wait no what are you talking about don't it it's perfectly good disk why are you telling

00:08:05 ◼   ► me to you know and if you if you weren't paying attention and you just click the wrong button

00:08:09 ◼   ► yeah I think Mac OS used to be a lot more dangerous.

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00:09:43 ◼   ► All right, so we'll start tonight with Wade Trigasquez who writes if there was a legitimate

00:09:51 ◼   ► way to distribute iOS apps outside of the App Store would any of you actually do that?

00:09:56 ◼   ► This could allegedly be an Ask ATP but we already have a full slate of Ask ATP and I

00:10:01 ◼   ► didn't put this here but I agree I'm assuming it was John who put this here.

00:10:05 ◼   ► It is an interesting thought.

00:10:07 ◼   ► So for me I had recently sunset vignette but peak view is still in the App Store.

00:10:11 ◼   ► Sunset?

00:10:12 ◼   ► Sunset, sunset.

00:10:13 ◼   ► Big Sur.

00:10:14 ◼   ► So anyway, so I still have peak view in the store and in fact I'm waiting for review on

00:10:20 ◼   ► a very small update now and I was thinking about this a little.

00:10:25 ◼   ► I don't know if I would.

00:10:28 ◼   ► Maybe I would I'm leaning toward no because for me I don't know what it would really get

00:10:34 ◼   ► for me other than like presumably reduced or an improved cut I guess I should say.

00:10:41 ◼   ► I would get more than 70 percent but then I would have to manage all the things I don't

00:10:45 ◼   ► really want to manage like payments and so on and so forth and since it's not like a

00:10:48 ◼   ► subscription app like Overcast I don't necessarily need to have a more direct relationship with

00:10:54 ◼   ► my customers so I don't think I would but Marco I have a feeling that you might have

00:11:00 ◼   ► a very different answer here.

00:11:03 ◼   ► You'd be surprised and there's so much more of a larger discussion here around the 30

00:11:09 ◼   ► percent, the 15 percent, all that stuff.

00:11:11 ◼   ► Much of which is happening because of the antitrust hearings and everything.

00:11:16 ◼   ► The discussion around Apple and potential anti-competitive or anti-trust issues with

00:11:21 ◼   ► the App Store has focused a lot on the 30 percent and many people have suggested well

00:11:28 ◼   ► what if they just lower the commission could that fix things and would that be good enough?

00:11:35 ◼   ► Apple has even focused a lot of their kind of defense or rebuttal that they're not

00:11:40 ◼   ► being anti-competitive on the 30 percent and I think they do that intentionally because

00:11:45 ◼   ► they know that if they can reduce the discussion around other angles of it they not only can

00:11:51 ◼   ► they control the message but this is an area where what they have is slightly more defensible

00:11:56 ◼   ► because they can point to the other big app stores that all copied them and be like hey

00:11:59 ◼   ► look Google charges 30 percent or whatever but it's really not about the 30 percent

00:12:04 ◼   ► so much.

00:12:05 ◼   ► 30 percent is a ton.

00:12:07 ◼   ► Don't get me wrong.

00:12:09 ◼   ► It is a very large commission.

00:12:11 ◼   ► It is substantial and I don't think they deliver enough value to have earned 30 percent

00:12:18 ◼   ► and they would love for everyone to only talk about the percentage because if you're only

00:12:22 ◼   ► talking about the percentage you are not talking about all of the other problems that are actually

00:12:27 ◼   ► anti-competitive.

00:12:28 ◼   ► The percentage isn't that big of a factor.

00:12:32 ◼   ► If Apple dropped it from 70/30 to like 85/15 across the board so every app could be 85/15

00:12:39 ◼   ► that still wouldn't make companies like Netflix or Hey want to have their services in the

00:12:44 ◼   ► App Store or use an app purchase in the App Store.

00:12:47 ◼   ► The 30 percent is not the problem.

00:12:50 ◼   ► I don't think you would get somebody like Amazon or Netflix, HBO, all these big companies.

00:12:57 ◼   ► They wouldn't participate in an app purchase at any price.

00:13:01 ◼   ► Even if Apple somehow made it zero percent they still wouldn't do it because there are

00:13:05 ◼   ► so many more angles here that are about things like integration with your existing system,

00:13:10 ◼   ► things like control, owning the billing relationship.

00:13:14 ◼   ► There's so much stuff that you can't do if you're using Apple's system.

00:13:17 ◼   ► There's a lot of things that Apple's system simply can't do or doesn't do well.

00:13:23 ◼   ► Certain purchase methods or even just like managing what purchases are available and

00:13:27 ◼   ► accounting for them.

00:13:28 ◼   ► There's a lot of things that Apple's system either doesn't do at all or doesn't do

00:13:32 ◼   ► as well as other systems do.

00:13:34 ◼   ► Any kind of admin control like we have no ways developers to refund people who purchase

00:13:39 ◼   ► our stuff.

00:13:40 ◼   ► So like if I get an email from somebody saying, "Oh, I purchased Overcast Premium.

00:13:43 ◼   ► I thought it would do this."

00:13:45 ◼   ► I get an email almost every day from people who say, "I purchased Overcast Premium so

00:13:50 ◼   ► I could send files to my watch.

00:13:52 ◼   ► It doesn't work.

00:13:53 ◼   ► I want a refund."

00:13:54 ◼   ► That's not what it does.

00:13:55 ◼   ► I don't know where they're finding this information.

00:13:57 ◼   ► Did I ever charge for that?

00:13:59 ◼   ► I don't remember.

00:14:00 ◼   ► I don't think I ever made that a premium feature.

00:14:02 ◼   ► But regardless, I frequently have a need where I wish I could issue somebody a refund.

00:14:09 ◼   ► And instead I can't do that.

00:14:10 ◼   ► All I can do is direct them to Apple's page about how to maybe possibly sometimes get

00:14:13 ◼   ► a refund.

00:14:14 ◼   ► That's a terrible customer approach.

00:14:17 ◼   ► I wish I could offer refunds.

00:14:19 ◼   ► I have no way to tell if someone's charge went through.

00:14:23 ◼   ► For our ATP.fm member CMS, we use Stripe.

00:14:26 ◼   ► And I'm able with Stripe, there's a whole dashboard I can go into.

00:14:29 ◼   ► And it's super easy for me to either use their dashboard or build my own on our admin

00:14:35 ◼   ► back end that can do things like see what a customer has been charged.

00:14:39 ◼   ► See, if their credit card was declined, if the charge actually was issued or not, I can

00:14:44 ◼   ► give partial or full refunds for any payment they've made.

00:14:47 ◼   ► There's so much control that we have in Stripe that I don't have with Apple's in-app purchase

00:14:54 ◼   ► system.

00:14:55 ◼   ► So there's a lot of reasons why people would maybe not want to use Apple's in-app purchase

00:14:59 ◼   ► system that are not just about whatever percentage they happen to charge.

00:15:04 ◼   ► Now the percentage they charge is high, for sure.

00:15:06 ◼   ► Even the 15% that you can get on years two forward on subscriptions, even 15% is high.

00:15:12 ◼   ► For Stripe, we pay something like 3%.

00:15:15 ◼   ► And that's pretty typical for most payment processors.

00:15:18 ◼   ► The percentage is important.

00:15:21 ◼   ► But all this other stuff, all these angles of control, and being able to have your own

00:15:26 ◼   ► billing system and being able to own that customer relationship, being able to look

00:15:30 ◼   ► up what somebody paid to solve customer support problems, being able to issue refunds yourself

00:15:34 ◼   ► to solve other customer support problems.

00:15:36 ◼   ► There's so many reasons that Apple's system is not good.

00:15:40 ◼   ► There are things that Apple's system literally can't do that make certain businesses possible

00:15:46 ◼   ► or not possible.

00:15:47 ◼   ► Like I was saying in the past about how if I wanted to have some kind of system where

00:15:51 ◼   ► you paid overcast 20 bucks a month and then I split it up between all the podcasts that

00:15:54 ◼   ► you listen to, I currently have no way with Apple's system to associate your purchase

00:15:59 ◼   ► with how much money I've actually received from you.

00:16:02 ◼   ► So I can't split up your money without, like I can estimate and get it wrong.

00:16:07 ◼   ► I don't really want to do that.

00:16:08 ◼   ► I can put myself at risk of actually losing money if that happened, and I wouldn't be

00:16:14 ◼   ► incredibly accurate with where people's money was supposed to go because there's no way

00:16:17 ◼   ► for me to look up an Apple system.

00:16:19 ◼   ► How much money did I actually receive from this user this month?

00:16:22 ◼   ► I can't do that.

00:16:23 ◼   ► There's all sorts of other things like that where Apple's system, it's great in certain

00:16:28 ◼   ► ways, and it's really not great in others.

00:16:31 ◼   ► And Apple wants us to keep talking about 30% to avoid talking about all that other stuff.

00:16:35 ◼   ► The real problem with the App Store being anti-competitive, the real thing that's going

00:16:40 ◼   ► to make Apple have to get regulated by governments because they clearly won't do it themselves,

00:16:46 ◼   ► is going to be the rules about not letting other people use their own purchase systems.

00:16:52 ◼   ► That's the key thing here.

00:16:55 ◼   ► Apple doesn't want us talking about that because that would cost them a lot in control, and

00:17:01 ◼   ► that would make them fully lose all the big companies that they're already mostly losing,

00:17:05 ◼   ► like things like Amazon, Netflix, et cetera.

00:17:07 ◼   ► But ultimately, for the App Store to have significantly reduced antitrust problems,

00:17:16 ◼   ► they have to allow apps to use their own purchase systems if they want to.

00:17:20 ◼   ► And they can put as many restrictions around that as possible except what they've done

00:17:24 ◼   ► so far to date with the stupid reader app distinction, which is really just, we're going

00:17:28 ◼   ► to allow the big apps to do it because we have to because they're big, but we're not going

00:17:31 ◼   ► to allow new small apps to do it.

00:17:33 ◼   ► That's a terrible distinction.

00:17:34 ◼   ► They have to get rid of the reader app distinction that says you're allowed to do it, but you're

00:17:38 ◼   ► not.

00:17:39 ◼   ► They have to allow apps to mention, go to our website to sign up.

00:17:43 ◼   ► They don't have to let you link out.

00:17:45 ◼   ► They don't have to let you build it into the app, but I think they need to do those two

00:17:48 ◼   ► things.

00:17:49 ◼   ► Get rid of the rule that lets only some apps do this at all, and relax the rule about mentioning

00:17:54 ◼   ► it at all, and allow apps to mention in text in the app, go to our website to sign up.

00:17:59 ◼   ► And that's it.

00:18:00 ◼   ► That would solve so many of these antitrust problems.

00:18:04 ◼   ► They won't do that unless they're forced apparently.

00:18:07 ◼   ► But we're not asking for alternative app stores, sideloading.

00:18:14 ◼   ► I don't think those things would be very good for the platform.

00:18:16 ◼   ► I don't think the iPhone would benefit from sideloading or alternative app stores.

00:18:21 ◼   ► I will eventually answer this question by Wade, by the way, which is about this.

00:18:25 ◼   ► It was about distributing apps outside of the app store.

00:18:27 ◼   ► If sideloading or something like that became possible, I will get there in a second.

00:18:31 ◼   ► But basically, I don't think that would be good for the platform at all.

00:18:35 ◼   ► Having the app store and having forced app review for all apps on iOS in particular,

00:18:40 ◼   ► I wouldn't accept this on Mac OS, but on iOS, I think it does make sense and the platform

00:18:46 ◼   ► is better off for it.

00:18:49 ◼   ► However, I also think that rule about external payment systems needs to be relaxed.

00:18:54 ◼   ► And I'm not even saying it needs to be relaxed very much.

00:18:57 ◼   ► Just a little.

00:18:58 ◼   ► All apps do the Netflix trick and let the Netflix trick be slightly nicer for users

00:19:03 ◼   ► in that let the app actually say in text, "You may sign up on our website."

00:19:07 ◼   ► With those changes, again, these problems mostly disappear.

00:19:10 ◼   ► Anyway, so going back to the question about whether I would distribute my apps or any

00:19:16 ◼   ► apps of mine, I guess, outside of the app store if there was a way to do it.

00:19:21 ◼   ► No.

00:19:22 ◼   ► At least nothing I've currently written.

00:19:24 ◼   ► Not Overcast, for sure.

00:19:25 ◼   ► Apple's payment system does come with some significant benefits.

00:19:30 ◼   ► And if they were actually forced to compete more with others, maybe they'd make it even

00:19:34 ◼   ► better, I choose to use it willingly and I'm glad I can use it because Apple's payment

00:19:42 ◼   ► system is really, really good for the case of Overcast Premium where I need to know roughly

00:19:49 ◼   ► if somebody paid or not, but I don't really need to know how much they paid me.

00:19:53 ◼   ► I don't need to know exactly how much I earned from their account after any possible

00:19:58 ◼   ► foreign currency conversion.

00:20:00 ◼   ► I don't need to know any of that.

00:20:02 ◼   ► And if a couple of people get through fraudulently who paid me and then got refunds and kept

00:20:07 ◼   ► the account anyway, you know what?

00:20:09 ◼   ► That doesn't matter that much to me.

00:20:10 ◼   ► I'm not going to lose money over that, really.

00:20:12 ◼   ► They could fill their uploads with 10 gigs of files and I would lose, just look at whatever

00:20:15 ◼   ► S3 charges, that amount of cents per month.

00:20:17 ◼   ► It wouldn't be that big of a loss.

00:20:20 ◼   ► Apple's system is good if you don't need all that precision about who exactly bought

00:20:25 ◼   ► exactly what and did they get refunds or chargebacks or anything.

00:20:29 ◼   ► If you don't need that kind of granularity, it's fine.

00:20:33 ◼   ► And then you get the benefit of the incredible ease of use it gives users.

00:20:39 ◼   ► The reason why I've always liked Apple's purchase system is that it's super easy.

00:20:45 ◼   ► Your billing info's already entered, even before Apple Pay was a thing on websites,

00:20:49 ◼   ► your billing info's already entered, everything is already ready to go, you just authorize

00:20:53 ◼   ► it with a password or touch ID or face ID or whatever, and it's purchased and that's

00:20:57 ◼   ► it.

00:20:58 ◼   ► And so as a user, I love that, and as a developer, I love that because I like having things be

00:21:03 ◼   ► really, really easy to purchase in my app.

00:21:05 ◼   ► And then all the things that Apple removes from my control, for the most part, is stuff

00:21:12 ◼   ► that I don't really need to deal with with this particular app, with this particular

00:21:15 ◼   ► offering of a paid thing.

00:21:17 ◼   ► I don't need to deal with most of that stuff.

00:21:20 ◼   ► So it's totally fine, and I will, I gladly, for this app, I gladly accept the trade-off

00:21:24 ◼   ► of I will accept all of Apple's shortcomings, I accepted that they're 30% forever, and

00:21:31 ◼   ► then with, you know, most recently, now that I'm entirely subscription-based on iOS,

00:21:36 ◼   ► I accept they're, you know, 70, 30 the first year, 85, 15 subsequent years, because I like

00:21:43 ◼   ► not having to deal with all that stuff for this particular app, and I like the incredible

00:21:47 ◼   ► ease of use that people have for buying it, and that allows me, ultimately, I believe,

00:21:53 ◼   ► to make more money from over-cached premium than I would if I had to have my own payment

00:21:58 ◼   ► system and people had to enter their own billing details and everything like that, because

00:22:02 ◼   ► I think that would cause more friction and I would lose more sales.

00:22:06 ◼   ► So I think ultimately I'm making money with this that I probably wouldn't be making

00:22:10 ◼   ► doing a different system, and I'm able to have all that ease of use of all this stuff

00:22:15 ◼   ► I don't have to really deal with that they deal with for me.

00:22:18 ◼   ► That being said, this doesn't apply to everything.

00:22:21 ◼   ► I also sell ads, and I sell ads only on the over-cached website, not through the app,

00:22:26 ◼   ► I don't have any in-app purchase, I actually do accept Apple Pay for them, all through

00:22:31 ◼   ► Stripe again, because that's like a different thing, like that's offering something on

00:22:34 ◼   ► the web that is mostly, you know, from people who are not using their phones at the time

00:22:38 ◼   ► of purchase, they're like people who work for big podcasting companies who are spending

00:22:43 ◼   ► a marketing budget from their computer at their office and they're going to websites,

00:22:46 ◼   ► and I need to know then who actually paid and if anybody did get chargebacks or refunds,

00:22:51 ◼   ► I need to know that because it's larger sums of money for a smaller number of purchases

00:22:54 ◼   ► and it matters more.

00:22:55 ◼   ► That's a different thing though.

00:22:57 ◼   ► For the actual app, I am very happy to be in the App Store and to use the in-app purchase

00:23:03 ◼   ► system because it does get me more users and more purchases than the alternative would,

00:23:09 ◼   ► but that's only because I have this like set of trade-offs and priorities for this

00:23:15 ◼   ► particular app and for this particular purchase for Evercast Premium where that makes sense.

00:23:20 ◼   ► That doesn't make sense for everybody and it never will, and they're always going

00:23:23 ◼   ► to have antitrust problems until using alternative payment systems for apps that don't want

00:23:28 ◼   ► to use in-app purchase become possible, and then Apple can try to actually compete on

00:23:31 ◼   ► their merits.

00:23:32 ◼   ► Why didn't you put Forecast in the Mac App Store?

00:23:35 ◼   ► I know that's not an apples-to-apples comparison, but why not put Forecast there then?

00:23:42 ◼   ► The main reason I didn't put Forecast in the Mac App Store is that Forecast is free

00:23:46 ◼   ► and I don't have any purchase in it.

00:23:47 ◼   ► I don't have any way to make money in it.

00:23:49 ◼   ► It's just easier on the Mac not to because like if I'm dealing with the App Store,

00:23:54 ◼   ► I'm dealing with, on the Mac I have to deal with things like sandboxing and the weird

00:23:59 ◼   ► limitations of the Mac App Store apps and everything, and I didn't want to deal with

00:24:04 ◼   ► any of that and it didn't make sense for a free app to go through all that trouble.

00:24:08 ◼   ► However, if Forecast was a paid app, I would do it through the App Store just so I wouldn't

00:24:13 ◼   ► have to deal with any of that stuff.

00:24:14 ◼   ► John, I know you don't have iOS apps, but you could have elected to do your own distribution

00:24:20 ◼   ► for your stuff, but you ended up in the App Store.

00:24:23 ◼   ► Yeah, I put this question in here and now doesn't ask any people.

00:24:26 ◼   ► I think as Marco has just discussed, it's very relevant to the antitrust stuff and in

00:24:32 ◼   ► particular, two aspects.

00:24:34 ◼   ► One that Marco also kind of touched on, like when and many people have mentioned, like

00:24:38 ◼   ► when Apple has asked about, you know, they offer themselves when describing here's the

00:24:43 ◼   ► App Store and here's why it's awesome.

00:24:44 ◼   ► They go through the whole thing and they say it used to be you had to pay retailers a huge

00:24:48 ◼   ► amount and then they skip right to the App Store, right, which is another silly thing

00:24:51 ◼   ► for them to do because they have a good case for explaining the App Store without skipping

00:24:57 ◼   ► over the multiple decades where people sold software over the internet without the App

00:25:01 ◼   ► Store, right?

00:25:02 ◼   ► There's no reason to skip from retail to the App Store.

00:25:05 ◼   ► You can say, yeah, people used to sell, you know, software from their websites, but then

00:25:10 ◼   ► they had to do payment processing and they had to deal with it themselves and it was

00:25:13 ◼   ► even harder before Stripe happened and it was harder for users and if a user wanted

00:25:17 ◼   ► to buy five applications, they had to enter their payment information into five different

00:25:20 ◼   ► websites and like Apple has a case that can be made about the App Store.

00:25:24 ◼   ► Apple made this very case when they introduced the App Store, like it's right there in front

00:25:28 ◼   ► of us and as Mark said, it's easy for people to buy things on the App Store.

00:25:31 ◼   ► It's why users like it and developers like it because there's less friction between people's

00:25:36 ◼   ► money and your thing and, you know, part of that is the foundation of that is Apple sort

00:25:41 ◼   ► of parlayed its success in digital music into the App Store because why did they have all

00:25:47 ◼   ► those credit card numbers?

00:25:48 ◼   ► It was your quote unquote iTunes account, right, you know, and like people trusted,

00:25:52 ◼   ► people have been giving Apple money with their credit cards for a long time, so it wasn't

00:25:55 ◼   ► so much of a stretch.

00:25:56 ◼   ► Say, hey, you get a new phone, you can use your Apple ID, enter payment information,

00:26:00 ◼   ► yeah, yeah, like it's all, it was all, you know, snowballing, right?

00:26:04 ◼   ► And they only had to do that once and once they do that, any app in the App Store, they're

00:26:07 ◼   ► going to say purchase, purchase, purchase, purchase, like it's just, you know, you don't

00:26:11 ◼   ► have to, every time you purchase an app, you don't have to enter your credit card information

00:26:14 ◼   ► in that developer's website, right?

00:26:16 ◼   ► So there's a strong argument to be made for the value that the App Store provides without

00:26:21 ◼   ► making some completely disingenuous argument about how in the bad old days, right before

00:26:26 ◼   ► the App Store, you had to pay CompUSA to put a cardboard box and you get like 1% of that

00:26:31 ◼   ► sale or whatever the heck it was, right?

00:26:33 ◼   ► That's not the predecessor that the App Store was competing with.

00:26:36 ◼   ► It was competing with direct sales through websites.

00:26:38 ◼   ► Now direct sales through websites had the advantages that Margot listed before, which

00:26:42 ◼   ► is like, oh, you have the customer relationship, you can easily issue refunds, so on and so

00:26:45 ◼   ► forth.

00:26:46 ◼   ► And obviously, the bigger the software company, the more important that is, because they probably

00:26:50 ◼   ► have more sales and more applications.

00:26:53 ◼   ► And for a company like Adobe, for example, you know, you may, you're probably not just

00:26:57 ◼   ► going to buy one Adobe app if you're going to be a big customer for them.

00:27:00 ◼   ► So you give Adobe your payment information once and then you can buy all sorts of Adobe

00:27:03 ◼   ► things year after year, right?

00:27:04 ◼   ► So it's not so bad.

00:27:06 ◼   ► But for small developers, it makes more sense.

00:27:09 ◼   ► And I don't, I'm not quite sure why Apple doesn't make that pitch.

00:27:14 ◼   ► But I think everybody knows, you know, you know, either the top of their mind or just

00:27:19 ◼   ► instinctively.

00:27:20 ◼   ► That's why that's what makes the App Store good.

00:27:22 ◼   ► And this question about alternate App Stores, if you think about it for more than a couple

00:27:29 ◼   ► of seconds, leads you to some weird scenarios, which is why I wonder how this will work out,

00:27:34 ◼   ► legally speaking, right?

00:27:36 ◼   ► What would it take to have an alternate App Store?

00:27:39 ◼   ► I know there are ones like the jailbreak App Stores of like, was it Cydia and there's a

00:27:42 ◼   ► whole bunch of like things that are out there that do this.

00:27:45 ◼   ► But I think we'd all agree that's a little bit, a little bit sketchy and weird and not

00:27:50 ◼   ► a mainstream thing, right?

00:27:52 ◼   ► If there were an alternate App Store, it would actually need substantially, you need to be

00:27:58 ◼   ► jailbreak, which I think we can set aside and say no one wants to compromise the security

00:28:02 ◼   ► over their phone that much for an App Store, right?

00:28:06 ◼   ► You didn't have to compromise the security of your computer that much to buy things from

00:28:08 ◼   ► a website.

00:28:09 ◼   ► So why, you know, that's just a curiosity.

00:28:11 ◼   ► Like say there was like a legit alternate store for your phones, right?

00:28:17 ◼   ► That would basically necessarily need support from iOS, support from Apple for it to reach

00:28:25 ◼   ► feature parity with the App Store and all the areas that the App Store is good.

00:28:29 ◼   ► Oh, I want to be able to automatically install applications with a single tap without doing

00:28:33 ◼   ► anything a weird jailbreaky, without defining, like you can't do that on a phone without

00:28:40 ◼   ► the privileges that Apple offers to the App Store.

00:28:44 ◼   ► Like there is no way like from a website to install an app onto your phone.

00:28:49 ◼   ► And you know, probably thankfully there is no way to, you know, get it, you know, how

00:28:53 ◼   ► would you get, how would you bootstrap the process?

00:28:55 ◼   ► How do you get the, the store application?

00:28:57 ◼   ► Like the App Store comes on our phones, right?

00:28:59 ◼   ► But how would you get the alternate store application onto your phone in the first place?

00:29:03 ◼   ► It would probably have to be hosted on the App Store, right?

00:29:07 ◼   ► Otherwise there'd be this convoluted install process.

00:29:09 ◼   ► And then all these things that I'm talking about without sort of support from Apple in

00:29:13 ◼   ► the operating system for alternate stores, every alternate store would be at a massive

00:29:17 ◼   ► disadvantage because nobody wants to figure out how to sideload or use Xcode to put a

00:29:23 ◼   ► thing on or do some weird big page or jailbreak.

00:29:26 ◼   ► Regular people do not want to do that.

00:29:28 ◼   ► So you've just narrowed your customer base to this incredibly thin sliver of tech nerds.

00:29:33 ◼   ► Everyone else would be like, oh, I don't know how to do that.

00:29:34 ◼   ► I'll just go to the App Store because it's on my phone to begin with.

00:29:37 ◼   ► So Apple would need to actively support alternate App Stores.

00:29:42 ◼   ► And the only way they would ever do that is if the law made them do it.

00:29:46 ◼   ► And laws that make companies do technical things never work because the law doesn't

00:29:52 ◼   ► understand the technology, the technology changes too fast.

00:29:54 ◼   ► And it just like when I think about alternate App Stores, I think no one would want to use

00:30:01 ◼   ► an alternate App Store.

00:30:02 ◼   ► Users wouldn't want to use an alternate App Store because it can never be as good as the

00:30:06 ◼   ► App Store is in all the ways that the App Store is beneficial to everybody involved.

00:30:13 ◼   ► And that's kind of disappointing, but also sort of, this is kind of like Microsoft and

00:30:17 ◼   ► IE, the argument that it's part of the operating system, but also the argument of like, look,

00:30:22 ◼   ► well, I don't know, it's a little bit different because it was easier to put alternate browsers

00:30:25 ◼   ► on.

00:30:26 ◼   ► But anyway, alternate App Stores would need good support from Apple and Apple will never

00:30:32 ◼   ► provide that unless they're forced to, and if they're forced to, they'll do it weirdly

00:30:36 ◼   ► or badly because the law will not be able to say, and you have to do a good job and

00:30:41 ◼   ► it doesn't really make any sense.

00:30:43 ◼   ► So I feel like the alternate App Store thing is a pointless thing to consider.

00:30:50 ◼   ► Sideloading isn't because you can say, look, in special cases for particular kinds of applications,

00:30:55 ◼   ► it's great to have an out and a way to install things.

00:30:57 ◼   ► But for the mass market case of like, I bought an iPhone, now I want to get a bunch of apps,

00:31:02 ◼   ► we're never going to be in a world where there are a bunch of App Stores, all of which are

00:31:06 ◼   ► as easy to use, reliable and trustworthy as the App Store because Apple doesn't want that

00:31:10 ◼   ► to be the case.

00:31:11 ◼   ► If Apple changed their mind and figured out some way to make more money doing that, yeah,

00:31:16 ◼   ► they can definitely do it.

00:31:17 ◼   ► Like it's not a technical barrier, it's just sort of a business case barrier.

00:31:21 ◼   ► As for my particular things distributing outside the App Store, the only reason I didn't do

00:31:26 ◼   ► it is because I'm not like, my two apps are small and barely hobbies, right?

00:31:35 ◼   ► Both of my apps would benefit from not being in the Mac App Store because I wouldn't have

00:31:38 ◼   ► to sandbox them and I wouldn't have a bunch of stupid limitations.

00:31:42 ◼   ► Like to just give one example from Switch Glass, I implemented a feature where you right

00:31:46 ◼   ► click on an icon in the little App Switcher and the bottom item was quit because it's

00:31:51 ◼   ► handy to be able to quit an application from the App Switcher, right?

00:31:54 ◼   ► I implemented it and then it just totally didn't work.

00:31:57 ◼   ► And I was like, "Oh yeah, you can't do that with sandbox and you cannot tell an arbitrary

00:32:02 ◼   ► application to quit."

00:32:03 ◼   ► You can whitelist them and say, "I want to be able to send the quit Apple event to these

00:32:08 ◼   ► five applications but you have to ship that with your binary and I'm not going to list

00:32:12 ◼   ► every application in the world, right?"

00:32:14 ◼   ► So there's one example of a feature I implemented, granted it's like five lines, but I implemented

00:32:18 ◼   ► it before I discovered that it can't be implemented.

00:32:20 ◼   ► People ask for it all the time.

00:32:21 ◼   ► I have a fact item on it.

00:32:23 ◼   ► If I wasn't in the Mac App Store, it would have that feature.

00:32:26 ◼   ► So there are reasons, especially for my weird utility type applications that I would love

00:32:30 ◼   ► to be outside the Mac App Store.

00:32:31 ◼   ► But because it's just a little tiny hobby and I'm not going to sell a lot of these things

00:32:34 ◼   ► but I do want to sell them, I'm not going to set up a payment processor for the piddling

00:32:38 ◼   ► amount of money these things make.

00:32:39 ◼   ► I'm not going to set up my own store and have a customer relationship and blah, blah, blah.

00:32:44 ◼   ► It's not, I don't have enough sales and I never will have enough sales to justify the

00:32:47 ◼   ► effort for me to make my own sort of software store outside the App Store because I'm not

00:32:52 ◼   ► a Mac App developer who's trying to start a Mac App development business.

00:32:57 ◼   ► So for me, no, I wouldn't do it for my Mac Apps, even though I think about it from time

00:33:01 ◼   ► to time.

00:33:02 ◼   ► I'm like, maybe when, like if I go through like six months with zero sales, maybe I'll

00:33:06 ◼   ► just make it a free app and put it outside the App Store and make it not sandboxed anymore.

00:33:10 ◼   ► I also thought maybe like, oh, well, you know, I'll just, I'll build a non-sandbox version

00:33:15 ◼   ► for my own personal use.

00:33:16 ◼   ► In practice, I don't, partially because of the convenience.

00:33:19 ◼   ► I bought my own application, which is another weird thing that you do if you're, anyway,

00:33:24 ◼   ► I bought my own application and in every Mac that I'm on, I just download it from the Mac

00:33:28 ◼   ► App Store again.

00:33:29 ◼   ► It's just more convenient than doing it the other way and having a special build.

00:33:32 ◼   ► It's just easier to have just one build.

00:33:35 ◼   ► And for iOS, if I ever made an iOS application, that's even more of the case because like

00:33:38 ◼   ► I said, there's, there's no way there will ever be another App Store that is as friendly

00:33:45 ◼   ► to customers as the App Store.

00:33:46 ◼   ► So if I want to get any kind of sales or any kind of downloads, I have to be in the App

00:33:51 ◼   ► Store.

00:33:52 ◼   ► I wouldn't be in the quote unquote alternate App Store.

00:33:54 ◼   ► But I was making some weird, like, you know, the ability to sideload, even like some weird,

00:33:58 ◼   ► you know, the ability to load an application, even if it's a long multi-step process, but

00:34:03 ◼   ► it's officially supported by Apple.

00:34:04 ◼   ► That's what I mean by sideloading.

00:34:06 ◼   ► I would do that if I had a good idea for a strange iOS application that needed to violate

00:34:10 ◼   ► some rules or something that the App Store enforces, but that the OS doesn't, because

00:34:15 ◼   ► that's another distinction I have to remember on iOS.

00:34:16 ◼   ► It's not like if you can sideload something, you don't have sandboxing, but if you can

00:34:20 ◼   ► sideload, one thing you don't have to deal with is I don't like your metadata.

00:34:24 ◼   ► I don't like this kind of application.

00:34:25 ◼   ► I don't like that you use the private API.

00:34:27 ◼   ► All that crap you don't have to deal with if you're outside the App Store.

00:34:29 ◼   ► But once you get onto the phone, it's not like you have a free for all.

00:34:32 ◼   ► Like there's a difference between jailbreaking and sideloading.

00:34:34 ◼   ► So anyway, if I was on iOS, unless I had one of those weird type of applications that was

00:34:40 ◼   ► techy and just a one-off like a dev tool or something, I'd be in the App Store.

00:34:46 ◼   ► And Wade, I know this is probably maybe not exactly what you were asking about, but I

00:34:49 ◼   ► think the heart of it is, would we be in the alternate App Store?

00:34:54 ◼   ► Would anyone?

00:34:55 ◼   ► Not without massive, extremely unlikely support from Apple to make the alternate App Store

00:35:01 ◼   ► be able to do the basic things that an App Store does.

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00:37:05 ◼   ► I have been dabbling with, and I think Jon has even longer than I, a very recent sponsor

00:37:11 ◼   ► as in two days ago as we record this, but last, the sponsor from last week, Hey, which

00:37:16 ◼   ► is the new email service from, from Basecamp and formerly known as 37 signals.

00:37:22 ◼   ► Is that right?

00:37:23 ◼   ► 37?

00:37:24 ◼   ► I think that's right.

00:37:25 ◼   ► And I have to, I have thoughts.

00:37:29 ◼   ► Let me start by saying everyone started gushing over this new email web app slash iOS app.

00:37:37 ◼   ► And obviously this made a lot of, that's made a big splash when, when it was released because

00:37:44 ◼   ► there was a big kerfuffle that we've covered on the show with Phil Schiller amongst others

00:37:48 ◼   ► about whether or not Hey has to support in app purchase and so on and so forth.

00:37:53 ◼   ► And I don't know, all the things I heard at first I go, we're reinventing email.

00:37:56 ◼   ► Oh, okay, sure.

00:37:57 ◼   ► You know, the Jennifer Lawrence.

00:37:58 ◼   ► Huh?

00:37:59 ◼   ► Okay.

00:38:00 ◼   ► Gif.

00:38:01 ◼   ► Okay guys, whatever you say, sure.

00:38:03 ◼   ► You're reinventing email.

00:38:04 ◼   ► And I didn't try it.

00:38:05 ◼   ► I didn't sign up.

00:38:06 ◼   ► I should have signed up and gotten a sweet username, but I didn't because I never do.

00:38:10 ◼   ► And then a couple of weeks back I did sign up and I started playing with it and I played

00:38:16 ◼   ► with it for a few minutes with no email coming into it except one that I sent myself.

00:38:20 ◼   ► And I was like, Oh, okay, I guess this is interesting.

00:38:23 ◼   ► And then when they were a sponsor, I wanted to play with it some more.

00:38:27 ◼   ► And then I found out we were going to talk about it because I think John had asked us

00:38:30 ◼   ► to, or maybe I had asked us to, I don't recall.

00:38:32 ◼   ► And so I actually forwarded my, it's not, it's Google apps for my domain, but I'll probably

00:38:39 ◼   ► just call it Gmail.

00:38:40 ◼   ► I forwarded my Gmail account to, to Hey to really try to live the life of a Hey user.

00:38:49 ◼   ► And I have to say that I really didn't think the hype was justified before I started really

00:38:56 ◼   ► improperly using it the way they intended to go figure.

00:39:01 ◼   ► And I still not entirely sure the hype is justified, but a lot of it is justified because

00:39:07 ◼   ► I actually am really impressed with this.

00:39:10 ◼   ► And I think it's really, really clever.

00:39:12 ◼   ► And I'm really, I really want to switch this, switch my email to, to use Hey, or at least

00:39:19 ◼   ► I do right now.

00:39:22 ◼   ► I'm not going to do that until it supports custom domains, which I've said many, many

00:39:25 ◼   ► times is coming, but I am very impressed by it.

00:39:31 ◼   ► And outside of some quibbles here and there, most especially Imbox, I M B O X, which just

00:39:38 ◼   ► is so cringy.

00:39:39 ◼   ► I have a few other quibbles by and large.

00:39:42 ◼   ► I really like it before, before I go into details about what makes Hey different.

00:39:48 ◼   ► Would the two of you perhaps starting with John, since you've had it longer, like to

00:39:52 ◼   ► discuss any like initial impressions or if you'd rather just dive into the nitty gritty,

00:39:56 ◼   ► we can do that.

00:39:58 ◼   ► One thing about initial impressions that I think is important for many services.

00:40:04 ◼   ► And I think a lot of services do this is creating FOMO about getting your username, which is

00:40:11 ◼   ► a, usually a pretty good marketing tool on certain times of people, me being one of those

00:40:15 ◼   ► types of people, obviously not Casey, cause you have the FOMO, but not enough for you

00:40:19 ◼   ► to go get your name.

00:40:20 ◼   ► Right.

00:40:21 ◼   ► So like the general case of this phenomenon is a new service appears.

00:40:24 ◼   ► And even if you have no interest in it whatsoever, if it's free to sign up, you just sign up

00:40:28 ◼   ► to reserve your name.

00:40:29 ◼   ► Just in case it turns out to be the next big thing.

00:40:31 ◼   ► So you've got your name.

00:40:32 ◼   ► So many services I've signed up for.

00:40:35 ◼   ► That is the explanation.

00:40:36 ◼   ► The one service that I didn't do that for, I regret massively Instagram.

00:40:39 ◼   ► I didn't sign up for years and years and years.

00:40:41 ◼   ► Cause I thought I would have no use of it.

00:40:43 ◼   ► And when I finally did sign up like seven years after Instagram existed or the hell it

00:40:47 ◼   ► was like way late, I signed up like no remote normal variation of my name existed.

00:40:52 ◼   ► And I have this horrendous username and Instagram and I regret it.

00:40:55 ◼   ► I should have just signed up to get the name.

00:40:57 ◼   ► I still barely use Instagram, but anyway, boy, that was a mistake.

00:41:01 ◼   ► But Basecamp being smart company that they are takes this one step further where yeah,

00:41:08 ◼   ► I was going to sign up for, Hey, no matter what I, in fact, I signed up for like that

00:41:12 ◼   ► early, you know, they said, Hey, if you're in, Hey, if you're interested in our email

00:41:16 ◼   ► thing, send us your send us your current email address and we'll let you know when, you know,

00:41:22 ◼   ► they have had like a thing where they let people in slowly.

00:41:24 ◼   ► Right.

00:41:25 ◼   ► I was on the waiting list.

00:41:26 ◼   ► I was fairly early on the waiting list to get in this because I wanted to get my name

00:41:29 ◼   ► and it was, you know, sign up for free, get your names on and so forth.

00:41:34 ◼   ► But when they actually came out, they said, okay, if you sign up and I think if you, if

00:41:41 ◼   ► you pay, if you like subscribe, cause it's like, there's a free like 14 day trial or

00:41:45 ◼   ► something and then after that you have to pay, if you pay for your name, pay for pay,

00:41:50 ◼   ► subscribe for like a month or a year or whatever you want to subscribe.

00:41:52 ◼   ► I forget what the terms are.

00:41:55 ◼   ► And then later you just stop subscribing.

00:41:57 ◼   ► You say, Oh, this isn't for me.

00:41:58 ◼   ► And you still pay anymore.

00:41:59 ◼   ► They'll hold your name for you forever.

00:42:03 ◼   ► So once you get your name, you don't have to worry like, Oh, if I just, if I let this,

00:42:08 ◼   ► if I let the subscription expire, someone else can steal my name.

00:42:11 ◼   ► It's always there waiting for you to come back and start paying again, which is smart

00:42:14 ◼   ► on multiple levels, but especially smart for people like me who are like, well, that's

00:42:17 ◼   ► it.

00:42:18 ◼   ► I'm going to instantly pay for my name.

00:42:19 ◼   ► Uh, you know, so that's, and for email services, like Casey mentioned, not wanting to go for

00:42:24 ◼   ► it until it's on your domain, which I totally understand this type of stuff is important

00:42:28 ◼   ► because the email is not only the linchpin too many different things, but also it's kind

00:42:33 ◼   ► of like your address or like for most people who don't have like their own, their own,

00:42:38 ◼   ► like, you know, web servers or websites or anything like that.

00:42:41 ◼   ► It represents you online and having to change it as a gigantic pain.

00:42:47 ◼   ► Right?

00:42:48 ◼   ► So if someone does sign up for, Hey, they'll want to keep using it for a very long time

00:42:55 ◼   ► and not, you know, they won't want to enter that as their email address and something

00:42:58 ◼   ► and then just say, Oh, well that was when I was first trying out, Hey, but I decided

00:43:02 ◼   ► I didn't like it and I've lost that name forever and can never get it back.

00:43:05 ◼   ► So I think that's cool.

00:43:06 ◼   ► Um, and in general, most of their policies, uh, the policies around, Hey, and the reason

00:43:11 ◼   ► I was so willing to sign up for it, it's based on the company's reputation.

00:43:14 ◼   ► Um, all the stuff that Marco talked about that you can't do on the Apple app store in

00:43:19 ◼   ► terms of customer relations, they are exactly the things that base camp is good at having

00:43:25 ◼   ► good customer support, being really easy with the refunds, like all that stuff, knowing

00:43:30 ◼   ► the customer and their relationship and whether they paid you or not.

00:43:32 ◼   ► And like just all that stuff.

00:43:35 ◼   ► Uh, you know, it's, it's back to the old world of buying things where when you buy from a

00:43:41 ◼   ► brand that you know and trust, like this brand loyalty to, to like the particular maker of

00:43:47 ◼   ► the thing that you're buying, whether it's a car manufacturer you really like or a department

00:43:52 ◼   ► store or a software maker, right?

00:43:54 ◼   ► These companies build their reputation on how they treat their customers and how good

00:43:59 ◼   ► their products are.

00:44:01 ◼   ► And it also means that if there's some random one person company that you've never heard

00:44:05 ◼   ► of, you don't have that established trust and it might be more dangerous.

00:44:08 ◼   ► But the flip side of that is when you're buying from a company you know and trust a lot and

00:44:13 ◼   ► have experience with their products and like them, you have some assurance that everything

00:44:17 ◼   ► will be fine.

00:44:19 ◼   ► And that company is empowered to do all the good things that you like them for.

00:44:23 ◼   ► And the app store, you're paying Apple and that's it, which is great for the small companies

00:44:27 ◼   ► because you're like, well, I don't trust them, but I trust Apple, right?

00:44:29 ◼   ► Or it's mostly great for small companies, the app can still be a scam.

00:44:33 ◼   ► But on the flip side, the very best companies are forced down to sort of the level that

00:44:39 ◼   ► Apple enforces for everybody.

00:44:41 ◼   ► It's like you can't give amazing customer service because Apple won't let you, but nobody

00:44:46 ◼   ► can give awful customer service because Apple won't let them.

00:44:49 ◼   ► I didn't want to turn this back into the app store topic, but anyway, all this is to say,

00:44:53 ◼   ► I was totally on board with trying out how, even though my history with email things is

00:44:58 ◼   ► I try them all and I pretty much reject them all, but I love seeing people do new things

00:45:04 ◼   ► with email because every once in a while, one of them hits with me.

00:45:08 ◼   ► Marco, you seemed a lot less enthusiastic about Hey.

00:45:11 ◼   ► In fact, the only reason I think you would have looked at it all is because after the

00:45:14 ◼   ► last show, I said, "Hey, let's look at Hey."

00:45:17 ◼   ► And you're like, you grumbled about it and you're like, "No, I don't want to look at

00:45:20 ◼   ► it."

00:45:21 ◼   ► Because you do not seem like you're constantly looking for new innovations in your email.

00:45:25 ◼   ► Did you sign up and try it?

00:45:27 ◼   ► I signed up, but I haven't really done anything with it yet.

00:45:29 ◼   ► I haven't forwarded any accounts to it or anything because I'm like the typical worst

00:45:36 ◼   ► case scenario for a service like this because I have my workflow, muscle memory for all

00:45:41 ◼   ► the built-in mail apps on Mac and iOS.

00:45:45 ◼   ► That being said, I've not been incredibly happy with mail.app ever since iOS 13.

00:45:51 ◼   ► Mail.app has been very increasingly buggy.

00:45:54 ◼   ► It still, even in the 14 betas, still has the bug where new messages sometimes stop

00:46:00 ◼   ► appearing at the top of the list.

00:46:02 ◼   ► They appear at the bottom of the list so you don't usually see them until you go back out

00:46:06 ◼   ► and back into your main inbox.

00:46:08 ◼   ► It's kind of amazing.

00:46:09 ◼   ► I still can't believe this bug has been there since iOS 13 beta one.

00:46:13 ◼   ► Here we are through the iOS 14 beta cycle.

00:46:15 ◼   ► It's still here.

00:46:19 ◼   ► I don't love mail.app on Mac that much either.

00:46:23 ◼   ► Under the Catalina version, I've had massive performance problems, especially on my laptop.

00:46:28 ◼   ► Under the Big Sur version on the laptop, the performance problems are mained and they ruin

00:46:32 ◼   ► the whole interface with Big Sur's new stupid toolbar design.

00:46:34 ◼   ► So I'm really not incredibly happy with mail.app.

00:46:39 ◼   ► I should be more on board with trying something new, but there's just so much inertia that

00:46:47 ◼   ► I feel behind the way I've always done it.

00:46:50 ◼   ► I'm not a person to just play with different tools for the sake of it.

00:46:54 ◼   ► I'll do that with certain things like microphones, but for the most part, I don't enjoy doing

00:47:00 ◼   ► that for most things.

00:47:01 ◼   ► I enjoy really moving into one and settling in for the long haul.

00:47:06 ◼   ► I'm a tool monogamist.

00:47:07 ◼   ► I really want to just use the one thing that I find to be great and just stick with it

00:47:12 ◼   ► forever for things that I don't really care that much about.

00:47:17 ◼   ► And email is one of those things.

00:47:18 ◼   ► I am not an email power user.

00:47:21 ◼   ► I don't practice any reasonable email philosophy or filing system or getting things done or

00:47:27 ◼   ► anything like that.

00:47:29 ◼   ► I just use email crappily like everybody else and I don't care that much about it.

00:47:34 ◼   ► Email is not something where I ever want to spend a lot of time to learn a new system

00:47:40 ◼   ► or even install, let alone learn, new apps everywhere.

00:47:44 ◼   ► I've also historically not been a fan of webmail type things, like web-based email.

00:47:51 ◼   ► I really love native apps and while Hay has apps, they are web views.

00:47:57 ◼   ► If anybody can make a good web view, it's Basecamp.

00:47:59 ◼   ► They know how to make web views really well.

00:48:03 ◼   ► They are amazing with web technology, but I still do love fully native apps way more.

00:48:08 ◼   ► I also don't want to move stuff because I have a lot of inertia in the system just in

00:48:12 ◼   ► my archive.

00:48:14 ◼   ► Like I mentioned last week, I believe I mentioned that email search is very important to me.

00:48:20 ◼   ► And the reason why is because I've been using the same email app forever with the same email

00:48:24 ◼   ► account on the same email IMAP server forever.

00:48:27 ◼   ► And so I know that I can go in and do a search and find some email that I'm trying to look

00:48:34 ◼   ► for from like 2008 and it's there.

00:48:37 ◼   ► If I start switching systems, I lose that history.

00:48:41 ◼   ► So I don't care enough about tweaking my email workflow to jump through all the hoops to

00:48:48 ◼   ► install something new, migrate to a new system, learn a new system, learn the new apps, and

00:48:54 ◼   ► also then lose that big history and then have to what, search two places?

00:48:59 ◼   ► Or somehow import my entire email archive into Hay, which I don't even know if that's

00:49:03 ◼   ► possible.

00:49:04 ◼   ► So it's just, I don't know.

00:49:05 ◼   ► Should I really be pushing myself to change this or does that sound reasonable to you?

00:49:09 ◼   ► - It does sound reasonable and I mostly agree with you.

00:49:15 ◼   ► It's funny because I love my dear friend and co-host of Analog, Mike Hurley, so much.

00:49:21 ◼   ► But him spending just hours upon hours going through different email apps, I always thought

00:49:28 ◼   ► was the most preposterous thing in the entire world.

00:49:31 ◼   ► Particularly before you could switch a default email app, which I think you can do in iOS

00:49:34 ◼   ► 14.

00:49:35 ◼   ► Is that right?

00:49:36 ◼   ► Or did I make that up?

00:49:37 ◼   ► - I think you can do.

00:49:38 ◼   ► I think it's mail and browser, but nothing else, right?

00:49:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, right.

00:49:41 ◼   ► I thought that's correct.

00:49:42 ◼   ► I might have that wrong.

00:49:43 ◼   ► But anyways, I always thought it was bananas.

00:49:45 ◼   ► And I always thought, not just Mike, of course, but all these people who are living their

00:49:49 ◼   ► lives a quarter mile at a time, living their lives by using snoozing and this and that

00:49:56 ◼   ► and all these other super proprietary things and this client that's working with arbitrary

00:50:02 ◼   ► IMAP servers in many cases.

00:50:05 ◼   ► I never understood it.

00:50:06 ◼   ► I never got it.

00:50:07 ◼   ► And I still mostly don't.

00:50:10 ◼   ► And I agree with you, Marco, that there's a couple of things about Hey that I consider

00:50:15 ◼   ► non-starters most especially.

00:50:17 ◼   ► I wanna keep my email address and I can't right now.

00:50:19 ◼   ► I would have to use a hey.com email address.

00:50:22 ◼   ► And in general, this is not something that I feel like I need to fix.

00:50:26 ◼   ► Like my email sucks.

00:50:27 ◼   ► I get way more than I want.

00:50:29 ◼   ► I feel compelled to respond to way too much of it.

00:50:33 ◼   ► And I haven't gotten to the point that Marco has where I can just outright ignore everything.

00:50:37 ◼   ► I'm getting better with it.

00:50:40 ◼   ► I'm getting better at ignoring it every passing day, but I'm still not great at it.

00:50:44 ◼   ► But in so many ways, this was not a problem I felt like I needed solving.

00:50:47 ◼   ► But I wanted to try it.

00:50:49 ◼   ► And I really am surprised by how much I enjoyed it, especially since like on the Mac, on the

00:50:55 ◼   ► Mac most especially, I have no interest in a web app.

00:50:58 ◼   ► Like again, my current email is Google Apps for my domain.

00:51:02 ◼   ► I open the web app maybe once a month, maybe.

00:51:07 ◼   ► I'm not a John Syracuse who lives in it.

00:51:09 ◼   ► And I don't know how you live in it, John, to be honest with you.

00:51:12 ◼   ► But I much prefer having native apps.

00:51:16 ◼   ► But there are a lot of really, really clever things about hey that are really making me

00:51:20 ◼   ► think this might be fixing problems that I've always wanted to fix but couldn't find a good

00:51:24 ◼   ► way to do it.

00:51:26 ◼   ► And I can dig into the specifics.

00:51:27 ◼   ► But before I do that, John, any other things you wanna say about what Marco or I just said?

00:51:31 ◼   ► >> Yeah, I think before we start detailing the specific features of hey, this is gonna

00:51:36 ◼   ► sound like it's just a giant ad for Gmail.

00:51:38 ◼   ► But I think it's going to explain how I use my email and why hey, well, I'm not gonna

00:51:45 ◼   ► say it's not a good fit for me.

00:51:46 ◼   ► But it's gonna explain the advantages of hey based on how I use Gmail.

00:51:49 ◼   ► So I used to use native apps for a long time, had a bunch of favorite applications.

00:51:54 ◼   ► And then Gmail came out.

00:51:56 ◼   ► And Gmail solved a lot of problems I had with the way I worked with mail.

00:52:00 ◼   ► So my way for working with mail is I tried to funnel everything into one big fire hose

00:52:06 ◼   ► and then I just have a huge amount of rules to file the mail automatically as it comes

00:52:11 ◼   ► in.

00:52:13 ◼   ► Back in the day I was filing into the folders, filing into subfolders, doing stuff with the

00:52:17 ◼   ► messages, marking as read and marking as unread, forward filing a duplicate.

00:52:21 ◼   ► Like just my mail is processed and it's processed by a series of rules.

00:52:26 ◼   ► And one of those would be like filing spammings but like actual rules.

00:52:30 ◼   ► Very, very, very, very little of my mail ends up in what most people think of as an inbox.

00:52:35 ◼   ► Pretty much all of it gets auto-filed somewhere, categorized and auto-filed.

00:52:38 ◼   ► And this is how I've always used email because I've always had a lot of email.

00:52:42 ◼   ► Back in the day the reason I had a lot of email is I'd sign up for like every mailing

00:52:44 ◼   ► list.

00:52:45 ◼   ► The Perl community was big on mailing lists, so was the Unix community.

00:52:47 ◼   ► I just had tons of very high volume mailing lists.

00:52:50 ◼   ► So that got me on the bandwagon.

00:52:52 ◼   ► That sounds awful.

00:52:54 ◼   ► That got me on the bandwagon of like auto-filing because there's no way to deal with mail if

00:52:58 ◼   ► you're on a mailing list.

00:52:59 ◼   ► And you have to auto-file the mailing list.

00:53:00 ◼   ► In fact, some of my favorite email clients had features specifically for mailing lists

00:53:03 ◼   ► where you could say, "This email is for a mailing list.

00:53:06 ◼   ► Please handle it and they would file it away for you."

00:53:08 ◼   ► But I do that with all my mail.

00:53:11 ◼   ► And that was a super pain.

00:53:12 ◼   ► First of all, it was a pain back in the day when all email was like pop because you had

00:53:16 ◼   ► the problem of like you're on one machine and you start your email client and it pulls

00:53:19 ◼   ► some messages and they get sorted.

00:53:21 ◼   ► And then you go on another machine and it hasn't seen those messages yet from using

00:53:24 ◼   ► pop and it has to get the same messages again.

00:53:27 ◼   ► And that would mean I had to have the rules, I had to have the same set of rules on every

00:53:31 ◼   ► computer.

00:53:32 ◼   ► And there was no cloud sync.

00:53:34 ◼   ► Like this is the 90s, right?

00:53:36 ◼   ► No cloud syncing of rules.

00:53:38 ◼   ► And these apps didn't even make it easy to bring – there was no even export and import

00:53:42 ◼   ► so I had to re-implement the rules.

00:53:44 ◼   ► This is especially egregious if I wanted to check my personal email at work, which is

00:53:47 ◼   ► definitely a thing that I've always wanted to do because you might get an email about

00:53:50 ◼   ► something about somebody in daycare or something like that.

00:53:54 ◼   ► I had to re-implement the rules on my work computer, which was another big pain.

00:53:58 ◼   ► Gmail solved that big problem for me because suddenly my email wasn't a native application.

00:54:05 ◼   ► And even with IMAP, trying to apply rules to IMAP like server-side rules would help

00:54:09 ◼   ► but server-side rules were implemented spottily.

00:54:11 ◼   ► Like Exchange had server-side rules but people didn't have personal Exchange accounts.

00:54:14 ◼   ► And IMAP could sometimes have some kind of server-side rule but it really depended and

00:54:17 ◼   ► it depended on the client.

00:54:19 ◼   ► Pop didn't have server-side rules at all so it was all client-side.

00:54:21 ◼   ► But Gmail just solved that.

00:54:22 ◼   ► It's like, "Okay, your rules are where everything is.

00:54:26 ◼   ► It's all in the cloud, right?

00:54:28 ◼   ► It's a web browser.

00:54:29 ◼   ► You can open any web browser that can load Gmail, can see your mail.

00:54:32 ◼   ► It's always going to look exactly the same because the mail is literally not on your

00:54:35 ◼   ► machine.

00:54:36 ◼   ► It's someplace else.

00:54:37 ◼   ► And if you define a rule in Gmail, that rule is everywhere you see Gmail.

00:54:41 ◼   ► No more defining multiple rules, no more syncing rules, no more nothing.

00:54:45 ◼   ► And all of your mail is available everywhere.

00:54:47 ◼   ► And Gmail had features that sound like they would appeal to Marco.

00:54:52 ◼   ► I'm not sure if you use these when Gmail first came out.

00:54:55 ◼   ► Gmail would take all of your old mail.

00:54:57 ◼   ► The very first thing when I got Gmail, besides reserving my name, was to upload literally

00:55:02 ◼   ► all of my old email that I had at that time.

00:55:05 ◼   ► And I'm sure I'm missing some stuff.

00:55:07 ◼   ► I just did search in Gmail.

00:55:08 ◼   ► I can go back to the '90s in my Gmail email.

00:55:12 ◼   ► I put like day one, I just said like exported everything from whatever I was using, probably

00:55:17 ◼   ► Entourage at that point, exported my entire email history and shoved it into Gmail.

00:55:21 ◼   ► And Gmail dutifully took it down.

00:55:23 ◼   ► And the other thing that once I did that is like I'm also big in email searching.

00:55:27 ◼   ► Guess what Google's really good at?

00:55:29 ◼   ► They're really good at search.

00:55:30 ◼   ► The search is fast.

00:55:31 ◼   ► The search is good.

00:55:32 ◼   ► The search is never broken.

00:55:35 ◼   ► So I got my rules in one place, and I've got really good search, and it's the same everywhere.

00:55:42 ◼   ► And the final thing is I have so much email that I don't have like a multi-gig archive

00:55:46 ◼   ► of email on my local disks anymore.

00:55:49 ◼   ► So I save disk space on top of it.

00:55:52 ◼   ► And Gmail has a bunch of extensions and features and keyboard shortcuts and other nerdy things.

00:55:55 ◼   ► So that's why I like Gmail.

00:55:58 ◼   ► What Hey is bringing to the table is, and by the way, needless to say, I think my way

00:56:03 ◼   ► of dealing with email is good.

00:56:06 ◼   ► Otherwise I wouldn't do it.

00:56:07 ◼   ► It's efficient, it's nice, it lowers the cognitive burden of email for me.

00:56:12 ◼   ► The fact that everything gets sort of auto-filed away, I can look at it in different buckets

00:56:16 ◼   ► and sub-buckets and deal with them when I want to deal with them.

00:56:18 ◼   ► Whereas the stuff that actually is in the inbox is so few that I know they're actually

00:56:22 ◼   ► important.

00:56:23 ◼   ► Like I built this system myself.

00:56:24 ◼   ► Hey is telling people, "You're not going to do, regular people are not going to do what

00:56:30 ◼   ► I did."

00:56:31 ◼   ► They're going to sit there and build up a series of like dozens and dozens of rules

00:56:34 ◼   ► over the course of many years and tweak them.

00:56:37 ◼   ► People are never going to do that.

00:56:39 ◼   ► Even if you show them how to make a rule and a filter and how nice it is, they won't keep

00:56:42 ◼   ► up with that process because that's not their inclination.

00:56:46 ◼   ► And honestly, I'm not saying it's a lot of ongoing work, but I did put a lot of work

00:56:50 ◼   ► in upfront when I was younger to establish all these rules and systems.

00:56:55 ◼   ► Hey is a system that says, "Since most people won't do that and don't want to do that, and

00:57:01 ◼   ► many can't do that, Hey has a system already.

00:57:04 ◼   ► Hey has a series of rules, a series of buckets and rules that apply to those buckets and

00:57:09 ◼   ► interface that applies to them.

00:57:10 ◼   ► And it's already established for you.

00:57:12 ◼   ► You don't do anything.

00:57:13 ◼   ► You just sign up and it's like, you're getting this set of rules."

00:57:15 ◼   ► Now, the reason Mike Early and many other people fret about email applications, they're

00:57:19 ◼   ► like, "Oh, but that's not exactly the set of rules that I want."

00:57:22 ◼   ► That's not the appeal of Hey.

00:57:24 ◼   ► The appeal of Hey is to people who have never had a "system" for email.

00:57:29 ◼   ► Having a system is way better than having no system.

00:57:32 ◼   ► And Hey's system is pretty good, as we'll get into in a little bit.

00:57:36 ◼   ► But I think that is the main appeal.

00:57:38 ◼   ► If you have never had a system for email and have just treated it as this giant avalanche

00:57:42 ◼   ► that lands on your head that you just swim your way through, Hey is just going to relieve

00:57:49 ◼   ► you of so much stress and pressure and annoyance in your life.

00:57:53 ◼   ► If on the other hand, you have a bespoke, hand-assembled, complex system, or even if

00:57:59 ◼   ► you have a notion of an exact system that you want, Hey is not going to match that,

00:58:03 ◼   ► because Hey is the system that they made.

00:58:05 ◼   ► It's not the system that you have in your head, and it's certainly not the system that

00:58:08 ◼   ► you may have implemented directly.

00:58:12 ◼   ► That said, seeing Hey's system gave me some interesting ideas for my system.

00:58:16 ◼   ► A lot of the ideas I've had for my system I've seen reflected in other things.

00:58:21 ◼   ► I forget what it was.

00:58:22 ◼   ► Maybe it was Inbox or something.

00:58:24 ◼   ► One of the companies, I think Gmail might have even bought them, a couple companies

00:58:28 ◼   ► in the most recent decade or so who have come out with email things had features that are

00:58:31 ◼   ► like, "Ha, that is a great feature.

00:58:33 ◼   ► I know, because I've been doing that since 2001."

00:58:37 ◼   ► But now we're finally getting to the reverse, where I'm seeing email applications that

00:58:40 ◼   ► have ideas that I hadn't even thought of and I'm interested in trying out.

00:58:44 ◼   ► So Casey, you want to take a crack at describing what the heck Hey does to your email?

00:58:48 ◼   ► What is the system that you get out of the box with Hey?

00:58:51 ◼   ► Yeah, certainly.

00:58:52 ◼   ► And both of you, feel free to interrupt me at any time.

00:58:55 ◼   ► And just very briefly, I think you're describing me.

00:58:58 ◼   ► I don't have a good system.

00:58:59 ◼   ► I have some labels in Gmail that I almost never use.

00:59:02 ◼   ► I do use native apps connected to Gmail as faux IMAP servers, and it doesn't work great,

00:59:10 ◼   ► but it works.

00:59:12 ◼   ► So what is Hey all about?

00:59:14 ◼   ► So Hey, most especially and primarily, asks you to do a little bit more work up front

00:59:23 ◼   ► with the theory that it will provide oodles of time savings over time.

00:59:28 ◼   ► So as you get an email from someone that Hey has never seen before or someone that your

00:59:33 ◼   ► email address has never seen before, when that email comes in, Hey will ask you to classify

00:59:38 ◼   ► it as one of three different things.

00:59:40 ◼   ► And one of them is the Imbox, which I'm just going to call Imbox because it's silly.

00:59:44 ◼   ► One of them is the Imbox, and that's stuff like your partner or your kid's school or

00:59:49 ◼   ► something like that.

00:59:50 ◼   ► These are things that you really want to have in your face.

00:59:53 ◼   ► The next bucket is what they call the feed.

00:59:56 ◼   ► And so these are things that maybe you would be interested in seeing, but you can really

01:00:00 ◼   ► do it on your own time.

01:00:02 ◼   ► And you can just kind of wade through them, not unlike you would wade through, say, your

01:00:07 ◼   ► Twitter feed.

01:00:08 ◼   ► And so you can start from most recent and keep going backwards and just kind of see

01:00:13 ◼   ► what sorts of things have come in.

01:00:14 ◼   ► So these would be newsletters or updates about things that aren't critical, maybe like a

01:00:19 ◼   ► shipping notification, for example, or something like that.

01:00:21 ◼   ► Things that may or may not be critical, but you still kind of care about.

01:00:25 ◼   ► And then a third bucket is what they call paper trail.

01:00:28 ◼   ► And this is for actually shipping notification might be a great example for this too, but

01:00:32 ◼   ► things like receipts, you know, stuff that you want to be able to refer to at some point,

01:00:37 ◼   ► but the likelihood of you actually needing to read it as it's coming in is slim.

01:00:43 ◼   ► So you can call it up, but you probably don't need to see it as it's coming into your inbox.

01:00:49 ◼   ► So it doesn't need to go in your inbox.

01:00:50 ◼   ► It doesn't even need to go in the feed.

01:00:51 ◼   ► It can just go straight to the paper trail.

01:00:53 ◼   ► So if you want to refer to that Amazon receipt, you certainly can, but you don't necessarily

01:00:57 ◼   ► need to see it arrive in your inbox.

01:01:00 ◼   ► And then on top of that, they have the standard things in 2020 for all email.

01:01:07 ◼   ► I want to set this aside and reply and have it for easy reference later.

01:01:12 ◼   ► I want to reply to this later, which is slightly different.

01:01:15 ◼   ► And there's a few other things that I'm not thinking of, but the IO, and you can screen

01:01:19 ◼   ► emails out.

01:01:21 ◼   ► So that's not really blocking them necessarily.

01:01:24 ◼   ► It's slightly different than spam.

01:01:25 ◼   ► I'm not entirely clear how it's different, but it's different.

01:01:29 ◼   ► And so the idea is that it's a very, I view it anyway, as a fairly low maintenance way

01:01:38 ◼   ► to establish a system.

01:01:40 ◼   ► And I didn't think of it that way until you described it, John, but I think you hit the

01:01:42 ◼   ► nail on the head.

01:01:43 ◼   ► That this is providing me anyway with a system that I never really had.

01:01:47 ◼   ► And to some degree, I could probably replicate this in Gmail, but I do like the way this

01:01:52 ◼   ► works.

01:01:53 ◼   ► I do like the way the web app works.

01:01:54 ◼   ► Like I'm not a huge web app fan, but I do like the way it works.

01:01:56 ◼   ► The mobile apps are also very good.

01:01:59 ◼   ► And I assume that as I'm filing these senders into these three different buckets, it's certainly

01:02:09 ◼   ► even already, even just a couple of days, bringing my inbox such that it's a little

01:02:16 ◼   ► bit less chatty, which is exactly what I want.

01:02:19 ◼   ► And I also do not receive an overabundance of email, but the three of us from ATP alone

01:02:24 ◼   ► probably get 10 to 20 emails a day.

01:02:27 ◼   ► And I typically try to read all of them and I respond to almost none of them, but that's

01:02:33 ◼   ► relatively chatty.

01:02:34 ◼   ► I am subscribed to some newsletters, but not a lot.

01:02:37 ◼   ► And so that can get chatty.

01:02:39 ◼   ► And I just get, I mean, I think everyone, I don't think this is unique to me.

01:02:42 ◼   ► Everyone gets more email than you want.

01:02:44 ◼   ► And so I guess it's a far cry for when I was like 15 and just begging somebody to send

01:02:48 ◼   ► me an email.

01:02:49 ◼   ► I was just so waiting for somebody to send me an email.

01:02:51 ◼   ► It'll be amazing.

01:02:54 ◼   ► And so I do think that Hey is very, very good at giving me/the Royal You a system to work

01:03:02 ◼   ► with.

01:03:03 ◼   ► And I think it's very well thought out and very clever.

01:03:06 ◼   ► And another example, I don't recall what the feature's name is, but I saw somewhere that

01:03:09 ◼   ► you can like highlight a specific portion of a email and store that somewhere.

01:03:16 ◼   ► I don't even remember how you do that, but I guess in summary, and I'll stop talking,

01:03:20 ◼   ► but it's very clear to me that a lot of thought has been put into how do people use email

01:03:28 ◼   ► and how can we meld this service around that?

01:03:31 ◼   ► Now, if you're John Syracuse, maybe this isn't a good fit, but if you're me and don't really

01:03:35 ◼   ► have a system, like I keep saying, this is a really, really clever and interesting way

01:03:40 ◼   ► to do it.

01:03:41 ◼   ► Yeah, and they take advantage of the fact that they write the app.

01:03:43 ◼   ► Like, to be clear, Hey is not an email client.

01:03:46 ◼   ► Hey is an email service like Gmail.

01:03:48 ◼   ► The email's all on their server and again, you're trusting them because they're a good

01:03:51 ◼   ► company to do encryption.

01:03:53 ◼   ► They can't see your email.

01:03:54 ◼   ► It's all encrypted in transit and in rest.

01:03:56 ◼   ► And it's all web interface.

01:03:57 ◼   ► You can see the same thing everywhere.

01:03:59 ◼   ► Yada, yada.

01:04:00 ◼   ► The system has a lot of features, like I said, that I would love to see elsewhere or be able

01:04:03 ◼   ► to implement because they control the client.

01:04:05 ◼   ► They can do things like when you view the different categories, like when you view the

01:04:09 ◼   ► paper trail versus your inbox and stuff, they look different because you consume them differently.

01:04:14 ◼   ► Like the feed looks more like you're looking at an RSS feeder.

01:04:16 ◼   ► Like it expands all the emails and you can just scroll through because that's the nature

01:04:19 ◼   ► of the feed, right?

01:04:21 ◼   ► And the type of features they have are like things that people do with email.

01:04:24 ◼   ► They have a dedicated files view at the top level because so often you're looking for

01:04:27 ◼   ► that one file.

01:04:29 ◼   ► And even though you may get a lot of emails and of course in an email client you can search

01:04:33 ◼   ► for things with attachments.

01:04:34 ◼   ► Do you remember the syntax in your weird email client to find files that have attachments?

01:04:38 ◼   ► Do you want to sort by attachment by clicking the header thing?

01:04:42 ◼   ► Just go to the files view.

01:04:43 ◼   ► It shows you all your files, right?

01:04:44 ◼   ► Stuff like that is sort of very thoughtful ways to just, you know, if you make a general

01:04:50 ◼   ► purpose tool, oh, we have a query syntax or we have customizable sortable column headers

01:04:54 ◼   ► like every Microsoft email client.

01:04:57 ◼   ► That's too much of a barrier for most people and even me, like I'm no longer copying my

01:05:01 ◼   ► rules around everywhere, but every time I set up like my preferred native email client,

01:05:09 ◼   ► I have to rearrange the columns and size them the way they want them because that's not

01:05:13 ◼   ► cloud synced.

01:05:14 ◼   ► Most things should be cloud synced, people, the modern day.

01:05:16 ◼   ► But anyway, they're not.

01:05:17 ◼   ► I want my columns to be in this order and this, you know, this email client decides

01:05:21 ◼   ► that that's not the default.

01:05:22 ◼   ► And sometimes in the worst case, in every new folder that I make in my local email client,

01:05:26 ◼   ► this is mostly for work where I'm not using Gmail, obviously, every new folder that I

01:05:31 ◼   ► make has the columns back in the default order, right?

01:05:33 ◼   ► All that, you can learn to use an application and you can make a general purpose application

01:05:37 ◼   ► that has all the features like, oh, whatever you think you can do in Hey, I can do that

01:05:41 ◼   ► too.

01:05:42 ◼   ► It's like, yeah, but they already did it for me.

01:05:44 ◼   ► They already made a big button with the five most likely things that I'm going to do.

01:05:49 ◼   ► And some things you can't do like, what if I want to have a different view for a particular

01:05:52 ◼   ► label or folder in Gmail where I want the emails to be bundled by sender and expanded?

01:05:57 ◼   ► I can't do that in Gmail.

01:05:59 ◼   ► I would love to be able to do that.

01:06:00 ◼   ► And like you just said, saving a snippet of one thing from the other.

01:06:03 ◼   ► Gmail has a bunch of sort of respond to this later, save for later type things.

01:06:08 ◼   ► But Hey is such a comprehensive worldview that if you buy into it, it will take a lot

01:06:14 ◼   ► of work off your plate.

01:06:15 ◼   ► And they try to lead you through it by sort of, you just start using the app and you don't

01:06:18 ◼   ► know the system because you didn't make the system.

01:06:21 ◼   ► It leads you through understanding what the system is by asking you a series of questions.

01:06:24 ◼   ► And in general, I think part of the appeal is that it makes you feel empowered.

01:06:29 ◼   ► I imagine it would make people feel more empowered over their email than they have been in the

01:06:33 ◼   ► past because immediately you're asked to make decisions about your email, value judgments

01:06:38 ◼   ► about your email.

01:06:39 ◼   ► An email will come in or the top of the app, it'll be like, you have five unscreened emails.

01:06:43 ◼   ► You're like, Oh, it's time for me to be a screener.

01:06:46 ◼   ► Well, let me just look at my emails and you can thumbs up and thumbs down just like in

01:06:50 ◼   ► gladiator, you know, like just this email, this email.

01:06:54 ◼   ► Yes.

01:06:55 ◼   ► Right.

01:06:56 ◼   ► And then if you say yes to it, you can say, what kind of email is this?

01:06:58 ◼   ► And it describes examples and says, if it's this kind of email, put it here or there.

01:07:03 ◼   ► That I think is one of the weakest system, weakest part of their system.

01:07:08 ◼   ► You know, obviously this is not going to be perfect for everybody, but they do ask you

01:07:11 ◼   ► to make decisions about emails and most of the time it's good and empowering, but occasionally

01:07:15 ◼   ► maybe it's just me because I'm so picky about my email.

01:07:19 ◼   ► You'll get an email and it will say, tell me about this email.

01:07:23 ◼   ► Do you want to see email from this or not?

01:07:25 ◼   ► And unlike the powerful case where you're like, no, I never want to see this email.

01:07:29 ◼   ► This is garbage.

01:07:30 ◼   ► You're like, well, it's email from something related to like the, you know, parent teacher

01:07:36 ◼   ► organization.

01:07:38 ◼   ► So it's not like I never want to see that email, but my choices, it's not a receipt.

01:07:45 ◼   ► I don't want it in my inbox, but do I, maybe I do want it in my inbox.

01:07:49 ◼   ► What if it's like an emergency?

01:07:51 ◼   ► It's not a paper trail.

01:07:53 ◼   ► Maybe it's feed.

01:07:54 ◼   ► Like even when you know what the systems are, because the system has fairly chunky buckets,

01:08:00 ◼   ► right?

01:08:01 ◼   ► And it's not a general purpose system for doing this where I can't just write a new

01:08:03 ◼   ► set of rules.

01:08:04 ◼   ► And by the way, I looked at Gmail and we were talking about this.

01:08:06 ◼   ► I have approximately 200 rules in Gmail and God knows how many labels.

01:08:12 ◼   ► You kind of get into a situation where you can't decide what bucket it's in and you just

01:08:16 ◼   ► have to pick the next best one.

01:08:17 ◼   ► It's not the end of the world.

01:08:18 ◼   ► You can change your mind later.

01:08:19 ◼   ► It's, you know, nothing is destructive, but that's something to keep in mind that you

01:08:23 ◼   ► really have to buy into the system.

01:08:24 ◼   ► The system is necessarily simpler than the one you would build exactly for yourself.

01:08:30 ◼   ► But other than that, I think the overall effect of using this, and then in case you've experienced

01:08:34 ◼   ► this, it suddenly seems like you have less email.

01:08:37 ◼   ► It seems like you get less email.

01:08:40 ◼   ► It seems like you have less email nagging you.

01:08:42 ◼   ► And it's still there.

01:08:43 ◼   ► It's just like in my system, being transparently shuttled away to the correct bins for you

01:08:47 ◼   ► to look at at your leisure.

01:08:48 ◼   ► And you've put them in bins based on your expectation, whether you know it or not, based

01:08:52 ◼   ► on your own personal expectations of how you're going to deal with them.

01:08:56 ◼   ► Things that are in the paper trail, you do not need to look at even to mark as read just

01:09:00 ◼   ► to get it off of your little unread to-do list.

01:09:03 ◼   ► They're auto-filed in the paper trail.

01:09:04 ◼   ► You never see them.

01:09:05 ◼   ► They're there if you need them.

01:09:06 ◼   ► You can find them in search, but they don't become a to-do item.

01:09:09 ◼   ► You don't even need to click on them once to make them unbold in your email client.

01:09:13 ◼   ► And then you open Hey and it's like, "Oh, no new email."

01:09:18 ◼   ► And for most people, that's a good feeling, unlike 15-year-old Casey.

01:09:22 ◼   ► If you like seeing one, there's no new email.

01:09:23 ◼   ► Like I forwarded, I have so many freaking email addresses.

01:09:25 ◼   ► They all go through Gmail, but I forwarded one of my lower volume ones to Hey, but I

01:09:31 ◼   ► still kept getting it in the other places.

01:09:33 ◼   ► And so I can compare what is it like to read this email address like my old way versus

01:09:38 ◼   ► doing it in Hey.

01:09:39 ◼   ► And at first I thought, "Is everything really getting forwarded?"

01:09:43 ◼   ► Because every time I look at Hey, it says there's nothing.

01:09:47 ◼   ► And even for things like spam, I don't know what they're doing for spam filtering, but

01:09:50 ◼   ► if I get garbage spam in the "real" email address that I look at with mail.app or whatever,

01:09:55 ◼   ► I never see that spam in Hey.

01:09:57 ◼   ► Maybe they just have better spam filtering too, but it doesn't bother me with it.

01:09:59 ◼   ► It doesn't ask me to do anything about it.

01:10:02 ◼   ► So I hope we've described Hey well enough.

01:10:05 ◼   ► The reason I'm mostly excited about it, despite the fact that I'm probably not going to use

01:10:08 ◼   ► it because I have my weird system, is that I love seeing people innovate in what seems

01:10:14 ◼   ► like a dead space.

01:10:16 ◼   ► I would recommend Hey to anyone who I see who looks like they do not have their own

01:10:21 ◼   ► system for email to try this system.

01:10:23 ◼   ► Because obviously if you don't have a system for your email by now, you probably are not

01:10:26 ◼   ► the type of person who's going to build the system.

01:10:28 ◼   ► And I think the Hey system is pretty good.

01:10:29 ◼   ► And it shows what you can do when you control everything.

01:10:31 ◼   ► They control the server side, they control the client side, as much as Apple will let

01:10:35 ◼   ► them.

01:10:36 ◼   ► And they've made very different choices.

01:10:38 ◼   ► It does not look like a normal email client.

01:10:40 ◼   ► It doesn't behave like a normal email client.

01:10:43 ◼   ► It behaves like Hey, in the same way that Gmail on day one did not behave like any native

01:10:48 ◼   ► email client, some people didn't like that.

01:10:50 ◼   ► I thought it was great because of what it was.

01:10:52 ◼   ► It was unabashedly a Google web based server side thing.

01:10:58 ◼   ► And its interface didn't look like Outlook.

01:11:00 ◼   ► It didn't look like Apple Mail at all.

01:11:02 ◼   ► Like there's no pretense of it being anything like that.

01:11:05 ◼   ► And that's refreshing.

01:11:06 ◼   ► And of course Gmail was like what, 2004?

01:11:09 ◼   ► Like you know, a decade and a half ago.

01:11:12 ◼   ► And I feel like with the exception of a few other innovative client side things like the,

01:11:19 ◼   ► what was it?

01:11:20 ◼   ► I don't remember all the names then Mike Hurley would know.

01:11:23 ◼   ► But there have been a couple of client side innovations.

01:11:25 ◼   ► But until Gmail, there hasn't been any sort of comprehensive rethink of the entire thing

01:11:31 ◼   ► from top to bottom until Hey.

01:11:33 ◼   ► So I recommend everyone check it out.

01:11:34 ◼   ► It's a free trial thing.

01:11:36 ◼   ► And like I said, if you pay for your name, and then just cancel the next month, I think

01:11:40 ◼   ► you can do monthly, I forget, you keep that name forever.

01:11:43 ◼   ► Everyone should at least check it out because the final thing to say here is like, since

01:11:47 ◼   ► email addresses are so important, it's kind of important that Hey.com stays around, right?

01:11:55 ◼   ► Because if they decide five years from now, oh, we're not gonna do email anymore.

01:12:00 ◼   ► Well, you know, maybe they'll, because they're a good company, they'd set up forwarding and

01:12:04 ◼   ► everything, but that's a hassle and that's a disruption.

01:12:06 ◼   ► So when selecting what your email address is going to be, if you're not a geeky person,

01:12:12 ◼   ► I'm not going to recommend this, we're all going to say you should have your own domain.

01:12:15 ◼   ► That's absolutely true.

01:12:16 ◼   ► You should absolutely have your own domain and use your own domain because then you're

01:12:18 ◼   ► beholden to no one.

01:12:19 ◼   ► But even then, it's a disruption.

01:12:21 ◼   ► Like Marco was saying, it's a disruption to change your back end, not because your email

01:12:25 ◼   ► address changes, but because it's a disruption to deal with where that name leads and you

01:12:31 ◼   ► don't want to miss any emails, you don't want to move stuff around or whatever.

01:12:34 ◼   ► But there is always the nagging thought in the back of your mind of like, if I sign up

01:12:37 ◼   ► for this email service and I'm a normal person, I don't have my own domain, am I going to

01:12:42 ◼   ► regret it?

01:12:43 ◼   ► Like, is this thing going to go away?

01:12:45 ◼   ► And that's why in general, I say, sign up for email with companies that you have some

01:12:50 ◼   ► faith will continue to be around.

01:12:53 ◼   ► Now 37signals/basecamp has been around for a long time.

01:12:56 ◼   ► Hey, as far as I can tell from the outside, seems really popular and it's a pay service.

01:13:01 ◼   ► So I think its sustainability is very sensible.

01:13:03 ◼   ► It's easy to understand.

01:13:04 ◼   ► How are they going to stay in business with this hey.com thing?

01:13:07 ◼   ► Everybody who uses it pays them, except for the free trial people, right?

01:13:11 ◼   ► It's a very simple business model.

01:13:12 ◼   ► People exchange money for goods and services.

01:13:15 ◼   ► So there's some faith that'll be around.

01:13:16 ◼   ► Gmail, one of the other reasons I was going home on Gmail is like, Google seemed like

01:13:20 ◼   ► a pretty well established company in 2004.

01:13:22 ◼   ► Today even more so, I am not in fear that Google will go away.

01:13:26 ◼   ► Granted Google cancels services all the time, but I think Gmail is probably too valuable

01:13:32 ◼   ► for them to candid.

01:13:34 ◼   ► This is where you can save this clip for the episode of ATP in 15 years when they sunset

01:13:38 ◼   ► Gmail and I'm frantically trying to export 75 gigs of email, but I'll cross that bridge

01:13:44 ◼   ► when I come to it.

01:13:45 ◼   ► Was that a hyperbole or do you really have 75 gigs of email?

01:13:49 ◼   ► How much email do I have?

01:13:50 ◼   ► Remember that?

01:13:51 ◼   ► That was another big feature of Gmail from day one.

01:13:52 ◼   ► It's like, we'll give you like a gig of email.

01:13:55 ◼   ► People are like, "A gig of email for free?

01:13:58 ◼   ► How can they do that?"

01:14:01 ◼   ► Is this just my email?

01:14:02 ◼   ► Yeah, I only have two gigs of email.

01:14:06 ◼   ► That's how much it says.

01:14:07 ◼   ► Percentage of two gigs used.

01:14:08 ◼   ► I'm only using 1.3 gigs out of my two gigs of email.

01:14:12 ◼   ► But I think if I was-

01:14:13 ◼   ► Lower, slow down, slow down.

01:14:15 ◼   ► Look at this closely because I'm looking at 861 gigs of 1,039 gigs used.

01:14:22 ◼   ► Are you sure you're reading that right?

01:14:24 ◼   ► Oh, that's not a period.

01:14:25 ◼   ► Okay, that's a comma.

01:14:27 ◼   ► All right.

01:14:28 ◼   ► Oh no.

01:14:29 ◼   ► That can't be right.

01:14:31 ◼   ► 1,385 gigabytes of 2,000-

01:14:37 ◼   ► You have 1.3 terabytes of email.

01:14:39 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:14:40 ◼   ► All right.

01:14:41 ◼   ► Sorry.

01:14:42 ◼   ► And apparently I have eight tenths of a terabyte, which is way more than I thought.

01:14:44 ◼   ► Yeah, that's a little more than half of what I have.

01:14:47 ◼   ► Yeah, email is big.

01:14:48 ◼   ► But here's the thing with their account.

01:14:50 ◼   ► I think if I was to approach two terabytes, it would just give me more room.

01:14:54 ◼   ► I don't think that's actually a limit.

01:14:56 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:14:57 ◼   ► Maybe we'll find out someday.

01:14:58 ◼   ► And unlike Marco, I don't delete my email.

01:15:00 ◼   ► Oh, you're missing out.

01:15:02 ◼   ► Like, spam gets filed as spam and then gets deleted, whatever.

01:15:05 ◼   ► But why would I delete it?

01:15:07 ◼   ► People delete it to get out of their face or to get some kind of emotional satisfaction.

01:15:11 ◼   ► I don't need the emotional satisfaction and it's not in my face.

01:15:13 ◼   ► Well, I'll tell you why.

01:15:16 ◼   ► So it's kind of like a digital clutter management thing.

01:15:20 ◼   ► So first of all, a lot of the emails I get are notifications from my servers of various

01:15:26 ◼   ► things I have to deal with or various conditions, like thresholds keep crossing.

01:15:31 ◼   ► So like, the load on the server went too high.

01:15:33 ◼   ► I'll get an email about it.

01:15:34 ◼   ► Granted, I'm probably using email wrong for even sending this to email, but oh well,

01:15:38 ◼   ► don't have me.

01:15:39 ◼   ► So a lot of the email I get literally has no value after a few hours because it's

01:15:45 ◼   ► some kind of notification for something.

01:15:47 ◼   ► Or it's like an Amazon shipment notification.

01:15:51 ◼   ► Great.

01:15:52 ◼   ► Amazon emails stopped including anything about your orders in the last couple of years ever

01:15:55 ◼   ► since companies were scraping data out of them and everything.

01:15:59 ◼   ► And so Amazon emails are useless now.

01:16:01 ◼   ► If I want any kind of Amazon status, I have to go to my Amazon account.

01:16:04 ◼   ► So any email from Amazon is pretty useless after about five minutes too.

01:16:08 ◼   ► There's all sorts of stuff like that where I look at this and I'm like, "This email,

01:16:11 ◼   ► I don't need this ever.

01:16:12 ◼   ► I will never, ever need to look this up or find this ever again."

01:16:16 ◼   ► Even a lot of email that we get from either an angry listener maybe who writes in and

01:16:22 ◼   ► tells us how much we suck or if I get an email to overcast that's just a feature request

01:16:29 ◼   ► that I've gotten a hundred times before, do I really need to save all of those forever?

01:16:36 ◼   ► Or can you look at it, make a quick judgment call and think, "You know what?

01:16:40 ◼   ► Am I ever going to need to look for this ever, ever again?"

01:16:44 ◼   ► And a lot of times the answer is maybe, and so I'll archive those.

01:16:50 ◼   ► But a lot of times the answer is no, I will never need to look at this again and so I'll

01:16:53 ◼   ► just delete them.

01:16:54 ◼   ► I'm not deleting everything.

01:16:55 ◼   ► I'm archiving a good amount every day.

01:16:57 ◼   ► But there's also so much that I can just delete.

01:16:59 ◼   ► Then that's less to store.

01:17:01 ◼   ► It's less to clutter up search results when I do want to find something.

01:17:04 ◼   ► It's less to manage.

01:17:05 ◼   ► It's not kind of against my storage limit, although I'm way under it for my current

01:17:08 ◼   ► host which is Fastmail.

01:17:11 ◼   ► It helps keep a little bit of clutter outside of my digital life.

01:17:15 ◼   ► And these days when you have infinite storage on everything, like disks are so big, it's

01:17:21 ◼   ► so easy to just collect garbage forever and to never delete anything.

01:17:27 ◼   ► And then you end up with overwhelming collections and larger storage needs over time and stuff

01:17:34 ◼   ► like that.

01:17:35 ◼   ► So I like situations like this where I can look at it and just say, "You know what?

01:17:38 ◼   ► I can just delete this.

01:17:39 ◼   ► I'm never going to need this again."

01:17:41 ◼   ► Even if it was something nice.

01:17:42 ◼   ► Like, in real life, I will throw away greeting cards after a while.

01:17:47 ◼   ► I enjoy them for a little while and then I throw them away.

01:17:50 ◼   ► That's physical.

01:17:51 ◼   ► We're not talking about physical things.

01:17:52 ◼   ► The beauty of digital things is they don't take up space like that in three dimensions.

01:17:56 ◼   ► It's not in the same way anyway.

01:17:58 ◼   ► But still, it's useful to apply the heuristic.

01:18:01 ◼   ► When you're looking at an email, when you're deciding what, like, I decide whether to archive

01:18:05 ◼   ► or delete something.

01:18:06 ◼   ► That's like I make a quick decision.

01:18:08 ◼   ► And if it's something like a server notification, that's already irrelevant by the time I

01:18:12 ◼   ► even see half of them, then fine, delete.

01:18:14 ◼   ► I'm never going to need this email again.

01:18:16 ◼   ► Yeah, I think I only have one kind of email.

01:18:20 ◼   ► One, yeah, I think this is maybe the first email that I routinely get that I actually

01:18:25 ◼   ► do delete.

01:18:26 ◼   ► I don't delete anything.

01:18:27 ◼   ► It doesn't take any space in my hard drive.

01:18:28 ◼   ► It's all Google stuff.

01:18:32 ◼   ► By the way, someone said click on manage at the bottom to get your storage breakdown.

01:18:35 ◼   ► Casey, you should do this too.

01:18:37 ◼   ► Because I don't have 1.3 terabytes of email.

01:18:40 ◼   ► I have 12.22 gigabytes of email.

01:18:44 ◼   ► What am I looking at in here?

01:18:45 ◼   ► You have to click manage, it shows a storage breakdown.

01:18:48 ◼   ► Oh, I see it, I see it, I see it.

01:18:49 ◼   ► 15 gigs.

01:18:50 ◼   ► You have more email than I do then.

01:18:51 ◼   ► And mine doesn't go back, mine goes back to 2004.

01:18:53 ◼   ► I don't think it goes back over here.

01:18:54 ◼   ► Mine goes back to the 90s, but I guess I don't have a lot of attachments.

01:18:57 ◼   ► Maybe that's building up the size.

01:18:59 ◼   ► Anyway, the one email that I routinely delete is I have a, like a watch on various websites

01:19:07 ◼   ► to find my cheese grater.

01:19:10 ◼   ► When they come up for sale.

01:19:11 ◼   ► Wait, why?

01:19:12 ◼   ► Wait, why?

01:19:13 ◼   ► Do you need more?

01:19:14 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:19:15 ◼   ► What?

01:19:16 ◼   ► For what?

01:19:17 ◼   ► Because I told you, I was dwindling.

01:19:18 ◼   ► I was down to like two spares.

01:19:19 ◼   ► Right, because they break every year or year and a half or whatever.

01:19:23 ◼   ► I was down to two spares and I couldn't find them anymore.

01:19:26 ◼   ► Oh, the actual like dairy cheese.

01:19:29 ◼   ► The actual thing that grates cheese.

01:19:31 ◼   ► Oh, yeah, I definitely heard Mac Pro.

01:19:33 ◼   ► Like from a cow.

01:19:35 ◼   ► I thought you were talking about your 2008 Mac Pro.

01:19:37 ◼   ► No, the good cheese grater like for my parmesan cheese.

01:19:42 ◼   ► The number of those were dwindling and normally when the number would dwindle, I would just

01:19:45 ◼   ► go online and I would search for one and I would buy it.

01:19:47 ◼   ► But the last few times that they broke, I went online to search and I couldn't find

01:19:50 ◼   ► any.

01:19:51 ◼   ► So I'm like, I need to set up one of those like watch services that just watches for

01:19:54 ◼   ► anybody, anywhere on the web selling one of these things.

01:19:57 ◼   ► So I do that.

01:19:58 ◼   ► But of course, my search terms are like OXO cheese grater.

01:20:02 ◼   ► OXO makes a lot of cheese graters, let me tell you.

01:20:04 ◼   ► So I get sort of a digest report, I don't know what it is, every week, every few days

01:20:10 ◼   ► or no, every time it gets a hit essentially.

01:20:11 ◼   ► Every time I get a hit on this, I get a little report of like here are all the OXO cheese

01:20:15 ◼   ► graters I found.

01:20:16 ◼   ► And 99.9% of the time, it's just all not my kind of cheese grater like it's the other

01:20:21 ◼   ► kinds because I sell lots of them.

01:20:23 ◼   ► And I delete those emails because I'm never going to see them again.

01:20:26 ◼   ► And it's not a lot of them, but that is the only email I think I routinely delete other

01:20:29 ◼   ► than obviously spam.

01:20:30 ◼   ► Because I mean, spam, my file is spam and then it gets auto deleted after 30 days.

01:20:34 ◼   ► Anything else, I just keep it.

01:20:35 ◼   ► I don't have to make a decision about it.

01:20:36 ◼   ► It's already auto filed, it's already out of my face.

01:20:38 ◼   ► It's not taking up a lot of storage.

01:20:41 ◼   ► And the value of doing that is like, I do find myself doing like forensics and trying

01:20:46 ◼   ► even it was like Amazon notifications with no information about the product, I can correlate

01:20:51 ◼   ► based on the dates of things or see if I got a notification about shipment while I was

01:20:55 ◼   ► on vacation at this place or whatever.

01:20:57 ◼   ► The paper trail, I do a lot of the paper trail stuff in my various systems and categorize

01:21:01 ◼   ► them and Gmail lets me export them and all that other good stuff.

01:21:05 ◼   ► But anyway, even if your system is I just delete everything, you never know those people

01:21:10 ◼   ► who delete everything after they read it and so they have literally no email.

01:21:13 ◼   ► My mom does that.

01:21:14 ◼   ► It's a surprisingly common pattern.

01:21:15 ◼   ► I cannot, that's like my nightmare, but to each their own.

01:21:20 ◼   ► If you don't have a system for email, I recommend checking out Hey.

01:21:25 ◼   ► And even if you're not going to use it for your email, like Marco's probably not going

01:21:28 ◼   ► to use it for his email, check it out just to see what a company is doing with an app

01:21:33 ◼   ► for a thing that everyone is familiar with.

01:21:34 ◼   ► Everyone knows email and has used it all the time.

01:21:37 ◼   ► It's so different and strange and interesting that I think it's worth just signing up for

01:21:43 ◼   ► a free trial to see what it's like.

01:21:45 ◼   ► You have to actually send it some email.

01:21:46 ◼   ► If you sign it up for a free trial and never send it an email, it's not interesting.

01:21:51 ◼   ► And you can't just send yourself two emails.

01:21:52 ◼   ► You have to like do the thing.

01:21:54 ◼   ► Almost anybody with like an iCloud account can do this.

01:21:56 ◼   ► You can forward a copy of your email.

01:21:58 ◼   ► So you're not messing up your email flow or redirecting it or whatever.

01:22:01 ◼   ► It's just a second redundant copy of the same email you're getting elsewhere.

01:22:04 ◼   ► So it shouldn't be disruptive to your actual email system, but it will let you get a real

01:22:08 ◼   ► flow of email into Hey.

01:22:10 ◼   ► And do that for a week or two and just see how it goes.

01:22:12 ◼   ► Yeah, I agree.

01:22:13 ◼   ► I've really been impressed with it.

01:22:15 ◼   ► And you know, they sponsored last episode, this was entirely us.

01:22:21 ◼   ► They couldn't have paid us to go on for this long about it.

01:22:23 ◼   ► It's been in our show notes for like four weeks as usual.

01:22:27 ◼   ► We are sponsored this week by Eero.

01:22:30 ◼   ► These days, your house isn't just your home.

01:22:33 ◼   ► It's also your office, your school, your movie theater, your restaurant.

01:22:37 ◼   ► It's everything.

01:22:38 ◼   ► All these and more put a strain on your wifi.

01:22:42 ◼   ► It's not good enough if your wifi is only good in like one or two rooms.

01:22:46 ◼   ► You need solid wifi in your entire house.

01:22:49 ◼   ► Everyone isn't working like on top of each other crowded in like the one good room.

01:22:52 ◼   ► You need Eero to help you out here.

01:22:55 ◼   ► Eero is an Amazon company now, and they cover your whole home with fast, reliable wifi inside

01:23:02 ◼   ► and out.

01:23:03 ◼   ► So if you have rooms with bad to no wifi, dropouts on your back patio, maybe Eero makes

01:23:08 ◼   ► every square foot of your house usable by eliminating poor coverage and dead spots.

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01:23:15 ◼   ► So you can be on a work call.

01:23:16 ◼   ► The kids can be doing remote learning and someone else can be sharing videos all at

01:23:20 ◼   ► the same time without any weird buffering or dropouts when you have Eero.

01:23:24 ◼   ► It's super fast and easy to set up an Eero system.

01:23:26 ◼   ► Just plug it in, plug in your modem, and you are just good to go.

01:23:29 ◼   ► The app is super simple.

01:23:31 ◼   ► You manage it all from their simple app.

01:23:32 ◼   ► You can do all sorts of wonderful features from the app too.

01:23:34 ◼   ► So you can do things like pause for dinner so your kids aren't on their phones throughout

01:23:38 ◼   ► dinner.

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01:23:47 ◼   ► So we ask a lot of our Wi-Fi.

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01:23:53 ◼   ► Go to Eero.com/ATP and enter code ATP at checkout to get free next day shipping with your order.

01:24:00 ◼   ► That's Eero, E-E-R-O dot com slash ATP.

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01:24:09 ◼   ► Eero dot com slash ATP.

01:24:11 ◼   ► Code ATP.

01:24:12 ◼   ► Thank you so much to Eero for fixing our Wi-Fi and for sponsoring our show.

01:24:16 ◼   ► [MUSIC PLAYING]

01:24:19 ◼   ► Let's do some Ask ATP.

01:24:22 ◼   ► And I am genuinely looking forward to this because we got a question from John Allman

01:24:28 ◼   ► who writes, "I find myself switching jobs about every two to three years in the startup

01:24:31 ◼   ► tech sector, and I know Casey and Marco don't have traditional jobs.

01:24:34 ◼   ► But would you all suggest moving data to my new company computer starting fresh?

01:24:38 ◼   ► If moving, what's the best way?

01:24:39 ◼   ► Target, Dismoke, Migration Assistant, et cetera.

01:24:42 ◼   ► Thanks."

01:24:43 ◼   ► I actually really am deeply uninterested in this question because I feel like we've answered

01:24:46 ◼   ► it a thousand times.

01:24:48 ◼   ► And I have definitely put them in the show notes a handful of times myself, so I am not

01:24:53 ◼   ► without guilt here.

01:24:55 ◼   ► But I'm starting to get a little frustrated and curious.

01:24:59 ◼   ► Why are we getting this question over and over and over again?

01:25:07 ◼   ► And John, you apparently have a theory.

01:25:09 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:25:10 ◼   ► So the reason why we answer it at least once a year is because it's so common and everyone

01:25:14 ◼   ► doesn't listen to every episode and yada, yada, yada.

01:25:17 ◼   ► So that's practically speaking why we might answer it.

01:25:19 ◼   ► But the real question is why do we keep getting this?

01:25:21 ◼   ► Why is everyone always asking us this very specific question?

01:25:25 ◼   ► I got a new Mac.

01:25:26 ◼   ► I've got an old Mac.

01:25:27 ◼   ► How do I get my crap off my old Mac onto my new Mac?

01:25:29 ◼   ► And I think it reveals an ongoing problem area with computers, which we've discussed

01:25:36 ◼   ► on and off in the show for many years, which I just discussed today in the context of email

01:25:41 ◼   ► rules.

01:25:42 ◼   ► My problem back in the '90s and early 2000s was I'd get a new computer or have a computer

01:25:49 ◼   ► working at home or whatever, and I wanted some stuff to be the same in both of those

01:25:53 ◼   ► places and I would have to manually make it the same because there was no cloud sync.

01:25:58 ◼   ► Today, we're like, "Oh, you don't have that problem.

01:26:00 ◼   ► Everything cloud syncs."

01:26:01 ◼   ► It's either all on the server like your Gmail or it syncs through iCloud or CloudKit or

01:26:08 ◼   ► everything syncs through Dropbox and your files are the same everywhere.

01:26:12 ◼   ► Syncing is a solved problem.

01:26:13 ◼   ► Cloud syncing is a solved problem, yada, yada.

01:26:17 ◼   ► But the fact that we keep getting this email about Macs in particular shows that this is

01:26:25 ◼   ► not a solved problem in the personal computer space.

01:26:29 ◼   ► Compare this to the phone space.

01:26:31 ◼   ► How many questions have we gotten about, "Hey, I got a new iPhone.

01:26:35 ◼   ► How do you guys move your stuff from your old iPhone to your new iPhone?"

01:26:38 ◼   ► We used to get that question in one very specific context, which was like, "Do you do encrypted

01:26:43 ◼   ► iTunes backups or not?"

01:26:45 ◼   ► But even that has gone away with iTunes going away and with encrypted Macs going away because

01:26:50 ◼   ► basically Apple solved this problem once and for all for normal people and mostly for geeks

01:26:56 ◼   ► by making their own system for getting your stuff from your old iPhone to your new iPhone

01:27:01 ◼   ► just work.

01:27:02 ◼   ► Like you get a new iPhone, you take it out of the box, it asks you if you want to get

01:27:05 ◼   ► stuff from an old iPhone and it does a little thing where it shows a funny image and you

01:27:08 ◼   ► show it in the camera and it just sits there for an hour and it just does it.

01:27:11 ◼   ► And we don't get that question.

01:27:13 ◼   ► People aren't constantly asking us, "How do I get stuff off my old phone and my new phone?"

01:27:16 ◼   ► That's how you can tell it's problem has been solved.

01:27:18 ◼   ► Absolutely not solved for the Mac.

01:27:20 ◼   ► Even though migration assistant is really good, it's weird.

01:27:23 ◼   ► First of all, it's not cloud sync or anything having to do with the cloud.

01:27:29 ◼   ► And Macs aren't...

01:27:31 ◼   ► You can't hold them in your hand and they don't all have cameras attached to them.

01:27:34 ◼   ► So you can't do like how the phone does.

01:27:36 ◼   ► They don't even have...

01:27:37 ◼   ► Even though they have Bluetooth, sometimes you can't bring them near each other because

01:27:39 ◼   ► they're big and heavy things.

01:27:42 ◼   ► And I think this problem is not solved and it's not likely to be solved anytime soon

01:27:47 ◼   ► just because the data volumes are big, the computers are big, and they're weird and different

01:27:51 ◼   ► from each other.

01:27:52 ◼   ► And the fact that we keep getting this question is just reinforcing this problem with personal

01:27:58 ◼   ► computers and Macs specifically.

01:28:01 ◼   ► It doesn't apply to iPads, it doesn't apply to phones, which is part of the reason people

01:28:04 ◼   ► love iPads and phones and stuff like that.

01:28:06 ◼   ► And it's something that we've talked about.

01:28:08 ◼   ► The most recent, most relevant example is when we talked about...

01:28:11 ◼   ► Oh, what the hell was it?

01:28:12 ◼   ► Was it Chromebooks?

01:28:15 ◼   ► Whenever Google made their initial pitch for, "We're going to make a computer for you, but

01:28:19 ◼   ► it's not like a computer.

01:28:20 ◼   ► It runs everything on the web."

01:28:22 ◼   ► And part of their little cartoon pitch advertisement for this thing was like...

01:28:28 ◼   ► This is why I keep saying, "Chuck it in the lake."

01:28:30 ◼   ► You can chuck this thing in the lake.

01:28:31 ◼   ► Don't worry.

01:28:32 ◼   ► All your stuff is always automatically saved in the cloud.

01:28:34 ◼   ► If you get a new one, you open it up, you log into your Google account, all your stuff

01:28:38 ◼   ► is there.

01:28:39 ◼   ► Sound familiar?

01:28:40 ◼   ► That's kind of like what we do with our phones now, with the expectation in general, if you

01:28:42 ◼   ► do cloud sync and cloud backups, if you do get a new phone and you don't even have your

01:28:45 ◼   ► old phone, it fell overboard on a boat.

01:28:47 ◼   ► Get a new phone, sign in to your Apple ID, tell it to sync all your stuff down from your

01:28:51 ◼   ► last iCloud backup, your new phone now looks like your old phone did, as of whatever the

01:28:55 ◼   ► last backup was.

01:28:57 ◼   ► And Google was promising that for their...

01:28:59 ◼   ► I think it was Chromebooks, but whatever it was.

01:29:01 ◼   ► And I remember when we talked about that on the program, I was gushing over it saying,

01:29:07 ◼   ► "Yes, yes, this is great.

01:29:08 ◼   ► This is how personal computers and laptops should be.

01:29:11 ◼   ► They should be just like that."

01:29:12 ◼   ► Or like Casey says, "Everything is ephemeral.

01:29:15 ◼   ► If I drop this in a lake, I just get another computer and let it churn for a while and

01:29:20 ◼   ► it's back to exactly how my old computer was.

01:29:22 ◼   ► And there's no missing stuff and no stuff that didn't transfer and no other limitations

01:29:25 ◼   ► like that."

01:29:26 ◼   ► Google's Chromebook or whatever initiative, I don't think it was fabulously successful

01:29:32 ◼   ► for a variety of reasons, partly because native software still has significant advantages

01:29:38 ◼   ► that people like, and for a bunch of other less interesting non-technical business reasons,

01:29:43 ◼   ► it doesn't seem like it's been hugely successful.

01:29:45 ◼   ► But I think they had the right idea.

01:29:47 ◼   ► At the time I said, "This is how computers should work."

01:29:51 ◼   ► But they still don't work that way, and that was like five years ago or whatever it was.

01:29:55 ◼   ► And I keep hoping it will.

01:29:56 ◼   ► And we'll know that this problem is solved when we stop getting this question at ATP,

01:30:00 ◼   ► but that day is not today.

01:30:02 ◼   ► So are we actually answering it?

01:30:03 ◼   ► No, but you should just use migration assistant.

01:30:05 ◼   ► That's what you use there.

01:30:08 ◼   ► That's probably the right answer.

01:30:10 ◼   ► But if you want to be nerdy, I'll put a link to a post I put up about how you can do this

01:30:15 ◼   ► with Homebrew if you are willing to suffer through Homebrew and do some preparation.

01:30:21 ◼   ► John's answer is, "You are not alone.

01:30:23 ◼   ► This is a problem.

01:30:24 ◼   ► You have correctly identified it."

01:30:26 ◼   ► We will answer it at least once a year, but I think we already did it for this year.

01:30:30 ◼   ► Let's see, 3.83.

01:30:31 ◼   ► What episode are we on now?

01:30:33 ◼   ► 3.90.

01:30:34 ◼   ► Seven episodes ago.

01:30:35 ◼   ► Yeah, it's way too soon for us to answer it again.

01:30:38 ◼   ► Oh, no, I'm sorry.

01:30:39 ◼   ► That was about my new MacBook Pro.

01:30:41 ◼   ► Maybe I lied.

01:30:42 ◼   ► Maybe it wasn't that episode.

01:30:43 ◼   ► All right, there's--

01:30:44 ◼   ► So far, if all our episodes were in Gmail, I could find it real quick.

01:30:47 ◼   ► Oh, there it is.

01:30:48 ◼   ► I should email myself the show notes.

01:30:49 ◼   ► That's another system I have, by the way.

01:30:50 ◼   ► This is an anti-pattern that nobody should do, but that I do because I don't know.

01:30:55 ◼   ► I invented this anti-pattern, emailing crap to yourself.

01:30:58 ◼   ► I email crap to myself all the time because I know my system will file it away, and I

01:31:02 ◼   ► know it's super easy to search.

01:31:05 ◼   ► Email was my first Instapaper before Marco made Instapaper, and I still use it for that.

01:31:10 ◼   ► Obviously, I still use Instapaper and other reader services for that purpose, but I still

01:31:15 ◼   ► email myself stuff.

01:31:16 ◼   ► By the way, if anyone wants to make an iOS app to please a single customer who's willing

01:31:20 ◼   ► to pay at least-- I don't know, I'd pay $30 for this app, and no one else would.

01:31:25 ◼   ► Mail to Self.

01:31:26 ◼   ► Mail to Self used to be a cool application that all it did was you had a share sheet,

01:31:30 ◼   ► and it would mail something to yourself in a single tap.

01:31:33 ◼   ► I want that application to be as good.

01:31:35 ◼   ► If I ever write an iOS app, it would probably be Mail to Self.

01:31:37 ◼   ► Couldn't you do that with shortcuts?

01:31:39 ◼   ► No.

01:31:40 ◼   ► I mean, you can do-- everyone thinks they can do it.

01:31:42 ◼   ► They're like, here, look, I made a shortcut to do it.

01:31:43 ◼   ► It's like, no, but I actually have more specific requirements.

01:31:46 ◼   ► Really, when I do it on a tweet, I want it to get the body of the tweet and the link

01:31:50 ◼   ► to the tweet and write the subject just so.

01:31:53 ◼   ► It's more complicated than that, right?

01:31:55 ◼   ► It's not as simple as just, oh, something's on the pace board, and it's the URL.

01:32:00 ◼   ► Put it in an email.

01:32:01 ◼   ► Like, yeah, you can do that.

01:32:02 ◼   ► I have 50 shortcuts to do that.

01:32:05 ◼   ► My requirements are actually more complicated than that.

01:32:07 ◼   ► The old Mail to Self thing would do my complicated requirements.

01:32:11 ◼   ► Using the share thing and saying mail, that does 50% of what I want, but I have to type

01:32:18 ◼   ► in my own email address every time.

01:32:19 ◼   ► I just type in the first three letters, and it auto completes, but it's still one extra

01:32:23 ◼   ► step.

01:32:24 ◼   ► I don't want to compose.

01:32:25 ◼   ► I just want it to be done in a single tap.

01:32:26 ◼   ► So obviously, just like my other apps, if you have one very specific thing you want done

01:32:29 ◼   ► in a specific way, just write the damn app yourself.

01:32:32 ◼   ► Then you can make it do exactly what you want, and you'll be the only customer, and you'll

01:32:35 ◼   ► be fine.

01:32:36 ◼   ► In keeping with my two other applications that are very, very, very, very tailored to

01:32:40 ◼   ► my specific needs, if and when I write an iOS app, it'll probably be this Mail to Self

01:32:44 ◼   ► thing.

01:32:45 ◼   ► That might be the quickest scope creep I've ever witnessed.

01:32:48 ◼   ► Oh, just want to send an email to myself.

01:32:50 ◼   ► Well, if it's Twitter, it needs to do this, and if it's this, it needs to do that.

01:32:54 ◼   ► It's mostly Twitter.

01:32:55 ◼   ► That's the thing.

01:32:56 ◼   ► But when it's Twitter, I want the entire text of the tweet to be in there, and I want a

01:33:00 ◼   ► link to the tweet, and I want the date, and I want the sender, and I want the subject

01:33:03 ◼   ► to say the, you know, like, that's useful to me, because then I can search for it later

01:33:08 ◼   ► in my email.

01:33:09 ◼   ► Like, that's how, if you wonder, how has Babby formed?

01:33:12 ◼   ► How has ATP show notes formed?

01:33:14 ◼   ► Boy, this is some old crusty memes we're getting out here.

01:33:19 ◼   ► I email stuff to myself all week long that gets auto-filed into the here's what you're

01:33:24 ◼   ► going to build the show notes from, and then I process them in whenever I have time to

01:33:30 ◼   ► process them by going through the queue, finding the things that I emailed to myself, and not

01:33:35 ◼   ► leaving my email, because all the text that I need to assess whether this is a thing I

01:33:38 ◼   ► want to go into the show notes or not is in the email.

01:33:41 ◼   ► Like, so if I just got the tweet URL, I'd be clicking on tweet URLs all the time to

01:33:44 ◼   ► say, what is this tweet about?

01:33:45 ◼   ► What is that tweet about?

01:33:46 ◼   ► What is this thread about, right?

01:33:48 ◼   ► And that's sort of my queue of stuff that builds the show notes, and I just work my

01:33:52 ◼   ► way through that queue, and that queue is never zero.

01:33:55 ◼   ► Like the queue, there's stuff in the queue right now, but normally right before a show,

01:33:58 ◼   ► I will take one more brief pass at the queue and see if there's anything pressing.

01:34:02 ◼   ► That's my crappy system.

01:34:04 ◼   ► I mean, I know, I'm sure productivity gurus are now cringing that you should never use

01:34:09 ◼   ► emails and inboxing.

01:34:11 ◼   ► You shouldn't use it as a queue, and you shouldn't email yourself stuff.

01:34:13 ◼   ► Quiet.

01:34:14 ◼   ► I have a system.

01:34:15 ◼   ► It works for me.

01:34:17 ◼   ► All right.

01:34:19 ◼   ► And John Demko writes, with iOS apps coming to macOS, will iPhone-only apps be rotated

01:34:25 ◼   ► appropriately for the Macintosh display, will iPhone-only apps finally be rotated appropriately

01:34:29 ◼   ► on an iPad in landscape orientation?

01:34:32 ◼   ► I don't see that.

01:34:34 ◼   ► I mean, maybe it's tough.

01:34:36 ◼   ► So it's funny because the fix that I am waiting on review for in Peekaview has to do with

01:34:41 ◼   ► rotation lock in the onboarding screens.

01:34:45 ◼   ► And in iOS apps, you can say on an application level, you would like this to only be portrait,

01:34:52 ◼   ► only be landscape or support, only head-up portrait rather than feet-up portrait and

01:34:57 ◼   ► so on.

01:34:58 ◼   ► There's different things you can enable.

01:35:01 ◼   ► And so it's not exactly cut and dry, right?

01:35:03 ◼   ► You could have an app that says, "I am locked to portrait."

01:35:05 ◼   ► Well, then what do you do?

01:35:07 ◼   ► And then there's apps that maybe they're a little bit better in portrait, but they kind

01:35:12 ◼   ► of support landscape, which especially in today's phones is like a postage box or like

01:35:17 ◼   ► a slit in a door where you would stick a letter.

01:35:20 ◼   ► These things are so darn...

01:35:21 ◼   ► The aspect ratio is so very tall to so not very wide.

01:35:27 ◼   ► To directly answer the question, I don't...

01:35:30 ◼   ► Maybe they would auto-rotate if the app lets them, but I just don't see that happening.

01:35:34 ◼   ► I think they would be assumed to be portrait.

01:35:36 ◼   ► What do you think, Marco?

01:35:37 ◼   ► I think on the Mac, iPhone only apps will literally just show up as non-resizable iPhone-shaped

01:35:44 ◼   ► rectangles in portrait orientation.

01:35:47 ◼   ► And so they're going to be weirdly small windows.

01:35:49 ◼   ► I don't know which phone they will simulate.

01:35:53 ◼   ► Obviously, iPhones have multiple different screen sizes they could be.

01:35:58 ◼   ► I seriously doubt they would be resizable.

01:36:00 ◼   ► I think it's going to be a fixed size, and we just don't know which size that's going

01:36:04 ◼   ► to be yet.

01:36:06 ◼   ► The problem is iPhone apps are not written to be resized typically.

01:36:11 ◼   ► You can do that.

01:36:12 ◼   ► You can write it that way if you have a universal app that's made for iPad multitasking as a

01:36:16 ◼   ► universal binary with the iPhone app.

01:36:17 ◼   ► You can do that, but Apple can't assume that all apps do that.

01:36:21 ◼   ► So for this question, I assume this is about...

01:36:24 ◼   ► Because John right here says iPhone-only apps.

01:36:27 ◼   ► So typically for an iPhone-only app, you're not writing in resizing support.

01:36:32 ◼   ► Rotation is another thing, but rotation, it doesn't really make sense on a Mac to support

01:36:38 ◼   ► rotation on iPhone apps because if it's not resizable, what's it going to do?

01:36:43 ◼   ► Like offer a diagonal drag handle, but it just only snaps to the two orientations that

01:36:48 ◼   ► it could be in, but it's still the same size rectangle?

01:36:51 ◼   ► That's no good.

01:36:52 ◼   ► So I have a feeling it's going to be very, very simple.

01:36:54 ◼   ► On the Mac, you get non-resizable rectangles that are the size of one of the phones.

01:36:59 ◼   ► And then on iPad, that's an interesting question, whether they would finally actually allow

01:37:04 ◼   ► the correct version of iPhone apps to be shown with proper rotation and maybe a little bit

01:37:11 ◼   ► bigger since they still show in like the four inch screen size or the three inch screen

01:37:17 ◼   ► size, whatever it is.

01:37:19 ◼   ► Anyway, I don't know if they would do it there because on the iPad, first of all, you're

01:37:25 ◼   ► running in a different environment and it would be a little bit more work, slightly

01:37:29 ◼   ► more work for them to enable UIKit to have an exception where it tricks the app into

01:37:37 ◼   ► being able to rotate between portrait and landscape, but only still in this black box

01:37:41 ◼   ► in the middle of the screen for these iPhone only apps.

01:37:45 ◼   ► And second of all, on the iPad, I think one of the reasons they've always made the experience

01:37:48 ◼   ► pretty bad for phone apps that are not optimized for the iPad, but that you happen to run there

01:37:53 ◼   ► anyway, is that they want developers to make iPad apps from their iPhone apps.

01:38:00 ◼   ► They want us to make universal apps.

01:38:02 ◼   ► People would probably make the decision of like, not only do we not want to spend additional

01:38:07 ◼   ► engineering time to make this nicer, we specifically don't want to make it nicer to force developers

01:38:13 ◼   ► to make iPad apps.

01:38:15 ◼   ► Now, you know, that's a thing they've done for a while now and with some success, some

01:38:22 ◼   ► not success like Instagram is a big one, but that seems to be their position on iPad.

01:38:28 ◼   ► But on the Mac, it's a different scenario because you're in a totally different environment

01:38:32 ◼   ► and having a bunch of like fixed iPhone size, little rectangle windows is totally fine on

01:38:37 ◼   ► the Mac.

01:38:38 ◼   ► So that's what I think we're going to do.

01:38:39 ◼   ► I don't remember if Steve John Smith or Guy Rambo or somebody actually started running

01:38:44 ◼   ► iPhone apps on the DDK and determined the definitive answer to this question.

01:38:50 ◼   ► I have vague memories of it, but I don't remember specifically.

01:38:52 ◼   ► But anyway, my guess is actually that they will allow rotation of iPhone apps on the

01:38:57 ◼   ► Mac and iPad apps.

01:38:59 ◼   ► It won't be by grabbing a drag handle.

01:39:01 ◼   ► I assume it will be a menu command because there's iPhone apps on the iPhone don't have

01:39:05 ◼   ► a menu bar, but on the Mac they do and there's all sorts of crap you could put in there.

01:39:08 ◼   ► And one of the things I would imagine they put in there would be rotation.

01:39:11 ◼   ► Just because you have the flexibility to do it, the Mac screens are big enough to do it.

01:39:15 ◼   ► iPhone apps support different features in landscape versus portrait depending on the

01:39:19 ◼   ► app.

01:39:20 ◼   ► And so to get access to those features, I think they'll allow you to rotate it with

01:39:23 ◼   ► the menu command.

01:39:25 ◼   ► Fingers crossed.

01:39:26 ◼   ► All right.

01:39:27 ◼   ► And then rounding out the triplet of John's this week, John Larson writes that John Syracuse

01:39:32 ◼   ► extols the virtues of having multiple backups of digital treasures.

01:39:35 ◼   ► Thus, I wonder what precautions he takes against the loss of physical treasures in his attic.

01:39:40 ◼   ► Fire, floods, tornadoes, bugs, mold, etc.

01:39:42 ◼   ► How does he protect his analog archive?

01:39:44 ◼   ► This is masterfully executed because this is such a trolly question written in such

01:39:49 ◼   ► a genuine kind way.

01:39:51 ◼   ► I applaud you, John Larson.

01:39:53 ◼   ► This is very well done.

01:39:55 ◼   ► John Syracuse, please answer.

01:39:57 ◼   ► What's trolly about it?

01:39:58 ◼   ► I mean, this is getting to the heart of why I love computers.

01:40:03 ◼   ► Digital bits can be copied losslessly.

01:40:06 ◼   ► If you have good checksums, you can keep them the same forever.

01:40:11 ◼   ► Things deleted digitally are completely deleted but can be restored.

01:40:15 ◼   ► Going back to the fundamentals of me as a little kid, you can write a word and backspace

01:40:19 ◼   ► over it as many times as you want and you will never wear through the paper because

01:40:22 ◼   ► there's no paper.

01:40:23 ◼   ► Right?

01:40:24 ◼   ► That's the beauty of digital things.

01:40:27 ◼   ► That's why I love computers.

01:40:28 ◼   ► That's why I feel comfortable preserving things in computers whether they be 12 gigabytes

01:40:34 ◼   ► of email or over 100,000 photos.

01:40:38 ◼   ► Digital.

01:40:39 ◼   ► I like digital.

01:40:41 ◼   ► In the meatspace world, everything sucks and there's no way to mitigate against disasters

01:40:51 ◼   ► and floods and bugs and mold because I can't easily make a perfect copy of all my physical

01:40:56 ◼   ► belongings elsewhere in three other places.

01:41:00 ◼   ► That's the physical world.

01:41:01 ◼   ► And unfortunately, there are limitations in the physical world where doing anything to

01:41:05 ◼   ► have sort of precautions and care and backups and mitigations costs money.

01:41:11 ◼   ► It costs money, it costs time, it costs space.

01:41:13 ◼   ► I don't have enough of those things to take any precautions.

01:41:16 ◼   ► So what precautions do I take against the loss of my physical treasures?

01:41:19 ◼   ► Almost none.

01:41:20 ◼   ► I mean, my house is up to code.

01:41:22 ◼   ► I have smoke detectors.

01:41:23 ◼   ► But the bottom line is almost nothing.

01:41:29 ◼   ► My house isn't air conditioned, first of all.

01:41:31 ◼   ► But my attic where the stuff is is both not air conditioned and also not heated.

01:41:35 ◼   ► So I don't even have climate control.

01:41:37 ◼   ► No rain gets in.

01:41:38 ◼   ► Like my house is weathertight.

01:41:39 ◼   ► But beyond that, no.

01:41:41 ◼   ► So all my capacitors are probably blown.

01:41:44 ◼   ► Things probably have mold in them.

01:41:45 ◼   ► My spiders, you name it.

01:41:48 ◼   ► And why don't I do anything else?

01:41:49 ◼   ► Because I can't.

01:41:50 ◼   ► I have a life to lead.

01:41:51 ◼   ► I have limited resources.

01:41:53 ◼   ► I'm doing the best I can.

01:41:54 ◼   ► The physical world, MeatSpace sucks.

01:41:56 ◼   ► That was sufficiently depressing.

01:41:59 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:42:00 ◼   ► That's why we all love computers.

01:42:01 ◼   ► Because it's a place where you can make a perfect world where everything is just so.

01:42:05 ◼   ► Because it's artificial.

01:42:06 ◼   ► So yay for computers.

01:42:08 ◼   ► Boo for MeatSpace.

01:42:09 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:42:10 ◼   ► The world we make is so perfect.

01:42:11 ◼   ► Well, you know, if it's not, we can always fix it.

01:42:14 ◼   ► And you can keep trying to fix it again and again and again.

01:42:16 ◼   ► Whereas my capacitor is blowing all my max and leaks stuff all over the place.

01:42:20 ◼   ► I can't go up there and fix that.

01:42:21 ◼   ► Jon, I wish you the best of luck in your second life.

01:42:24 ◼   ► Thanks to our sponsors this week, Squarespace, Bombus, and Eero.

01:42:28 ◼   ► And thank you to our members who support us directly.

01:42:31 ◼   ► If you want to join them, you can get access to things like our bootleg feed or an ad-free

01:42:35 ◼   ► show.

01:42:36 ◼   ► See for yourself at ATP.fm/join.

01:42:39 ◼   ► Thank you very much, and we'll talk to you next week.

01:42:45 ◼   ► Now the show is over.

01:42:47 ◼   ► They didn't even mean to begin.

01:42:49 ◼   ► Because it was accidental.

01:42:51 ◼   ► Oh, it was accidental.

01:42:55 ◼   ► Jon didn't do any research.

01:42:57 ◼   ► Marco and Casey wouldn't let him.

01:43:00 ◼   ► Because it was accidental.

01:43:02 ◼   ► Oh, it was accidental.

01:43:05 ◼   ► And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm.

01:43:11 ◼   ► And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S.

01:43:19 ◼   ► So that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-N-T. Marco Arment S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A. Syracuse.

01:43:32 ◼   ► It's accidental.

01:43:33 ◼   ► It's accidental.

01:43:34 ◼   ► They didn't mean to.

01:43:35 ◼   ► Accidental.

01:43:36 ◼   ► Accidental.

01:43:37 ◼   ► Tech.

01:43:38 ◼   ► Water.

01:43:39 ◼   ► Water.

01:43:40 ◼   ► Tech.

01:43:41 ◼   ► Water.

01:43:42 ◼   ► Tech.

01:43:43 ◼   ► I've cast so long.

01:43:44 ◼   ► I thought of one mitigation that I make for my physical treasures.

01:43:49 ◼   ► Specifically about the issue of tornadoes and bugs.

01:43:52 ◼   ► I live in a place...

01:43:54 ◼   ► It's not the friendliest place to physical goods.

01:43:57 ◼   ► That would probably be like the high desert somewhere where there's no moisture to.

01:44:01 ◼   ► But I can tell you that if I live someplace swampy or more south, the bug situation could

01:44:08 ◼   ► potentially be much more dire, because I feel like the warmer you get, the more bugs are

01:44:13 ◼   ► available.

01:44:14 ◼   ► The harsh winters here do help tamp things down.

01:44:16 ◼   ► So even though we have weather and we have snow and tons of rain and all that other stuff,

01:44:22 ◼   ► in general, because the winter's going to come and freeze everything, we don't suffer

01:44:25 ◼   ► from the massive infestations of life and mold.

01:44:31 ◼   ► Like because again, it's going to get dry here in the winter too.

01:44:33 ◼   ► We have seasonal infestations, but no sort of prolonged ones.

01:44:37 ◼   ► And I suppose the cold weather chases the various animals to invade our homes perhaps

01:44:42 ◼   ► too.

01:44:43 ◼   ► But anyway, one partial mitigation is I guess not living in Florida.

01:44:46 ◼   ► Yeah that's not good.

01:44:47 ◼   ► Even if you live somewhere super dry, then you have issues with anything made of rubber

01:44:51 ◼   ► because it cracks and dries out.

01:44:53 ◼   ► Yeah I suppose.

01:44:54 ◼   ► I'm always jealous of like, even when we're in California, you look at these cars from

01:44:59 ◼   ► the 90s and they're pristine because they don't have road salt.

01:45:02 ◼   ► Yeah there's no rust.

01:45:04 ◼   ► Or winter or rust.

01:45:07 ◼   ► They're just beautiful.

01:45:08 ◼   ► Like I just love being in California and looking at all the old Hondas.

01:45:11 ◼   ► It's like being in a museum.

01:45:13 ◼   ► No Honda in New England looks like that anymore.

01:45:15 ◼   ► A Honda that age just looks like a pile of rust.

01:45:19 ◼   ► Jon I have a funny bone to pick with you.

01:45:23 ◼   ► I don't remember where it was I heard this.

01:45:24 ◼   ► I don't remember if it was this show Erectives or something else.

01:45:28 ◼   ► But you said that you leave live photos off.

01:45:32 ◼   ► And in and of itself, you monster.

01:45:35 ◼   ► Why?

01:45:36 ◼   ► And beyond that, I know that in your defense there's some slight weird things with the

01:45:42 ◼   ► 11 Pro I think.

01:45:43 ◼   ► Where like if live photos are on you can't use night mode or something along those lines.

01:45:47 ◼   ► I forget the details.

01:45:48 ◼   ► But up until I think in the last year or two, for the first couple of whatever years that

01:45:53 ◼   ► live photos were around, as far as I knew it was only additive.

01:45:58 ◼   ► So why the hell wouldn't you capture a live photo man?

01:46:00 ◼   ► What's wrong with you?

01:46:01 ◼   ► Having live photos on is like leaving key clicks on.

01:46:03 ◼   ► Which I also thought was uncontroversial until I found these monsters who were like, "I leave

01:46:06 ◼   ► key clicks on all the time."

01:46:08 ◼   ► It's the same thing.

01:46:09 ◼   ► Key clicks are legitimately bad.

01:46:11 ◼   ► Key clicks are legitimately, inarguably bad.

01:46:14 ◼   ► But why would you turn off a live photo?

01:46:16 ◼   ► Here's the problem with live photos, and both of you manifest this problem.

01:46:21 ◼   ► Before I get to your problem with live photos, there is, just off to the side, I just want

01:46:25 ◼   ► to mention the privacy aspect of live photos.

01:46:28 ◼   ► Because if they're on and you forget that they exist, the camera could be pointing in

01:46:32 ◼   ► a direction that you don't want it to be pointing before you take a photo that you then send

01:46:34 ◼   ► to somebody and they're able to see something you didn't want them to see.

01:46:38 ◼   ► I will begrudgingly allow that.

01:46:39 ◼   ► So that exists, but that you can manage.

01:46:41 ◼   ► If you have it on all the time, you just change your habits, right?

01:46:44 ◼   ► The real problem with live photos, aside from the storage space, is that if you just have

01:46:50 ◼   ► them on by default all the time, and you share photos, as you two do, and every single freaking

01:46:55 ◼   ► one of them is a live photo, but 99.999% of them, there is no extra information or value

01:47:00 ◼   ► in the live photo.

01:47:01 ◼   ► I have to watch all of your live photos to find out, is this the one where there was

01:47:05 ◼   ► something cute in the live photo?

01:47:06 ◼   ► And no, it's not.

01:47:07 ◼   ► It's the one where I could see you adjusting your camera, from looking at the grass and

01:47:10 ◼   ► now looking at your kid.

01:47:11 ◼   ► But I have to force press on my stupid phone every single time to make that determination,

01:47:16 ◼   ► because every single photo you share is a live photo.

01:47:18 ◼   ► John, it's bad.

01:47:19 ◼   ► I understand your perspective and your point, but you are empirically wrong.

01:47:24 ◼   ► No.

01:47:25 ◼   ► And here's the second thing for me in particular.

01:47:28 ◼   ► The quality of the live photo video, if it was the same quality as the photos, I might

01:47:32 ◼   ► leave it on by default.

01:47:33 ◼   ► But it's so freaking blurry and gross that the only time I would ever do it is if I thought

01:47:37 ◼   ► there was going to be additional value, as in this photo is cute, but really you got

01:47:41 ◼   ► to watch the live photo to get some extra value of a cute thing that was said or done

01:47:45 ◼   ► or whatever.

01:47:46 ◼   ► Instead of just being on by default and me seeing you adjust the frame and framing your

01:47:50 ◼   ► subject in the photo, it's just terrible.

01:47:53 ◼   ► So my note to both of you would be, have live photos on all the time, fine, but then turn

01:47:59 ◼   ► it off on all the photos you're going to share where there's nothing of value in the live

01:48:01 ◼   ► photo so I don't have to force press on every single one of your pictures.

01:48:04 ◼   ► That's what I do.

01:48:05 ◼   ► I mean, I don't do a lot of shared albums, so it's not much of a problem there for me.

01:48:09 ◼   ► But whenever I message a photo to somebody, and Tiff and I have this convention between

01:48:14 ◼   ► each other, we've worked it out, and I do it to everybody, whether they know it or not,

01:48:17 ◼   ► which is like I choose whether I send you a live photo or not every single time.

01:48:22 ◼   ► And if I send you a live photo, then I think you should watch it.

01:48:26 ◼   ► But otherwise, like the vast majority of pictures I send, I turn off the live photo-ness of

01:48:30 ◼   ► it when I send it.

01:48:31 ◼   ► But I still leave live photos on for pictures that are being captured by the camera app,

01:48:36 ◼   ► because I still get some value out of that sometimes, and it's very cute.

01:48:41 ◼   ► So who controls the one shared album viewers that I'm on?

01:48:44 ◼   ► Because everything is a friggin' live photo.

01:48:46 ◼   ► That would be Tiff.

01:48:47 ◼   ► But look, I don't know if we can-- can you control when you add a picture to a shared

01:48:53 ◼   ► album?

01:48:54 ◼   ► Can you make that non-live?

01:48:55 ◼   ► You can just turn-- here's the thing.

01:48:57 ◼   ► If you take live photos all the time, surely for your benefit as well, you only want--

01:49:01 ◼   ► you're in the same situation as me.

01:49:03 ◼   ► When you look at these photos a year later, if they all have live photos, you won't know

01:49:07 ◼   ► which ones have live photos with value or not.

01:49:10 ◼   ► So you have to do this processing step where you go through all your photos and disable

01:49:13 ◼   ► the live photo on the ones that you didn't want to be live photos.

01:49:17 ◼   ► Otherwise, every single photo you have to force press on or otherwise tap and hold on

01:49:21 ◼   ► or whatever to see the live photo animation.

01:49:24 ◼   ► And additionally, many of Apple's UIs will autoplay the live photo when the thing comes

01:49:27 ◼   ► into view, so now you're subject to that.

01:49:29 ◼   ► So you have to process them.

01:49:31 ◼   ► You have to say, was this a real live photo or just an incidental real live?

01:49:34 ◼   ► And if you don't process them, then when you share, you'll just share them all the way

01:49:40 ◼   ► they are.

01:49:41 ◼   ► So I don't want to sign up for that level of work, especially for the value-- for the

01:49:44 ◼   ► quality that it adds.