00:00:03 ◼ ► Please, two of you, work out which of you has a half an hour of content that you're gonna stick before the time.
00:00:15 ◼ ► Right, but see the problem is when you get this, you know, 100 year storm thing where we have 45 minutes before the little modem sound.
00:00:24 ◼ ► All right, an anonymous Apple employee writes to make yet another correction. This is turning into the tea, whatever, whatever, whatever feedback.
00:00:36 ◼ ► This anonymous Apple employee writes, "The always-on VPN mentioned on a past episode cannot
00:00:41 ◼ ► (all caps) be implemented on a user-owned iPhone or iPad. That policy can only be applied on supervised devices,
00:00:51 ◼ ► You can only supervise an iPhone if the company purchased it through a specific reseller or carrier or
00:00:56 ◼ ► the company takes over the ownership of your phone, which is extremely rare. And this usually only happens with donated devices.
00:01:02 ◼ ► It's a tedious process which requires a full phone erase in multiple steps. In other words, a company cannot snoop your web traffic
00:01:13 ◼ ► "There's a preference in settings on iOS under contacts called short names that allows you to set the system-wide preference.
00:01:22 ◼ ► It was like the mom and dad, whether you use their names or their nicknames in your address book and what shows up where.
00:01:27 ◼ ► And I was trying to recall that there was some setting that you could use to control this, but then not all apps honored it.
00:01:33 ◼ ► I seem to recall also messing with this setting and expecting it to work on the Mac or there's an equivalent on the Mac.
00:01:50 ◼ ► I suppose you could just do whatever you want. But anyway, in case you're wondering, that's where it is in iOS settings.
00:01:57 ◼ ► Alright, my buddy Brian King sent us a link to a talk from Skydio, and I believe Skydio makes drones.
00:02:13 ◼ ► you'll see something cool. And I don't remember exactly what the timestamp was, but at some point they had these drones
00:02:23 ◼ ► I don't remember exactly what it was, but the drone was flying in between power lines. It was
00:02:29 ◼ ► amazing. I do not understand how this could possibly work. It looks like it was somewhere around
00:02:34 ◼ ► between 10 and 15 minutes, I think. Anyways, it is a fascinating video. Yeah, at about 14 minutes
00:02:42 ◼ ► It is really bananas to watch as you see it going above, below, and through these power lines.
00:02:49 ◼ ► Which I assure you as someone who is now an experienced drone pilot, except not really, that is
00:02:54 ◼ ► terrifying to think about doing. And I have pretty much the smallest drone on the market.
00:02:58 ◼ ► So this is extremely, extremely cool. If you watch the entire hour-long video, that's what it's about.
00:03:02 ◼ ► How they do that. You know, all the different sensing that they use to figure out how not to hit things when flying through the air.
00:03:11 ◼ ► We have some follow-outs. The talk show episode 309, Pinkies on the Semicolon. That was where some guy joined
00:03:27 ◼ ► And I thought it was really, really good and well worth the couple hours that it took to listen.
00:03:47 ◼ ► rant in his giant paragraphs about the Mac. Very hypercritical style. For those listeners out there who miss
00:03:54 ◼ ► hypercritical and who want a show where Casey and I aren't here and it's mostly John ranting in these like large composed
00:04:02 ◼ ► you know arguments. This had a lot of that in it, and I really appreciated that as a listener.
00:04:08 ◼ ► I was just gonna say the opposite that I felt like on that show what I was doing was trying to give the Cliff Notes
00:04:12 ◼ ► versions of what people get an ATP because everything I said on the talk show are things we've discussed in the past in the ATP,
00:04:17 ◼ ► but I have to give the the compressed version because it's just one appearance as opposed to over weeks and months.
00:04:33 ◼ ► and if you don't regularly listen to the talk show you might want to make some time for this one because it's very very good.
00:04:38 ◼ ► All right, John, I think especially has lots of thoughts about Clubhouse. Can you tell me about this John?
00:04:54 ◼ ► The first one is, and I forgot to mention this last time, it occurred to me even when I was just first
00:05:01 ◼ ► you know, so that you've got speakers who are quote-unquote "on stage" and they can nominate other people to come up on stage and speak, right?
00:05:10 ◼ ► there's an audience, like the way it's presented is the speakers are at the top with their little avatars,
00:05:14 ◼ ► then there's a second section which says it's like people that the speakers follow, and
00:05:18 ◼ ► then there's a third section where the avatars get a little bit smaller, and that's like everybody else, right?
00:05:30 ◼ ► the total number of things that you can do in the audience are, number one, raise your hand,
00:05:35 ◼ ► which says, "Hey, I would like to be nominated as a speaker to let the people who are speakers know they can pick you
00:05:47 ◼ ► I was thinking of our podcast where we do a thing kind of like Clubhouse where there's a bunch of people right now
00:05:53 ◼ ► although we can't nominate them to speak on the show, they can talk to each other through text in the chat while we
00:06:03 ◼ ► You know, you can't invite every single person from the audience up to be a speaker in any kind of Clubhouse room.
00:06:11 ◼ ► It's always like you nominate the lucky few who get to talk and the rest of the people are just in the chat room, and
00:06:20 ◼ ► You know, I'm not saying they should add a text chat, but I feel like it's something I'm used to and would find valuable.
00:06:26 ◼ ► I like the idea that the audience can speak amongst themselves, and that's a huge can of worms as we know.
00:06:37 ◼ ► then it just becomes a giant cesspool to see any chat in Twitch or Live Chat in the YouTube stream or anything like that.
00:06:44 ◼ ► So I fully understand the problems, and I'm thinking they're making the right call for this stage in their startup process.
00:06:50 ◼ ► But I have to say that I missed the chat room experience in Clubhouse. Have either one of you done any more
00:06:59 ◼ ► Yeah, I think all three of us, or I think maybe it was me and some with Jon and some with Marko, were in a chat.
00:07:07 ◼ ► Was that the one the Gruber pointed everyone to about like UX design and stuff like that?
00:07:16 ◼ ► personally see this as something that I would do often, but if somebody whose work I enjoy is
00:07:22 ◼ ► talking about a topic I find interesting, and I'm not also doing something else, which is a lot of ifs, ifs, ifs,
00:07:28 ◼ ► yeah, I think it would be something I would enjoy. And it just so happened at that particular time, you know,
00:07:39 ◼ ► And so I popped in for a bit, and I saw both of you guys there at some point or another.
00:07:42 ◼ ► And I definitely enjoyed it, and I was able to do other things simultaneously, not unlike a podcast,
00:07:47 ◼ ► but basically once I joined the room, I closed, or I didn't close the app, I suppose, but I turned off my phone.
00:07:59 ◼ ► but it was good for me from a user experience perspective, except that it wasn't very sticky as the
00:08:04 ◼ ► people like to say, in the sense that I wasn't, you know, piddling with the phone at all or with the app at all.
00:08:10 ◼ ► I was just sitting there listening. And yeah, it would have been nice to have a chat room.
00:08:16 ◼ ► have not found compelling, like even when it's people I like, even when, like there's never a time
00:08:31 ◼ ► that people who say things like that are missing the point, and we're not taking advantage of the two-way nature of Clubhouse.
00:08:38 ◼ ► And, you know, and I think, you know, it's worth mentioning too that we're not just picking on this one particular service,
00:08:44 ◼ ► but now we're also gonna be picking on this category of things since everyone's copying them.
00:08:58 ◼ ► I think was being kind just now talking about, you know, the issues of how this kind of two-way communication thing scales.
00:09:10 ◼ ► there's mics that are passed around or, you know, open mic somewhere out in the auditorium and people can like come up and like
00:09:24 ◼ ► conferences and stuff are people who want their voices to be heard, who have something to say and they want to say it.
00:09:38 ◼ ► in this period where it's been like super hot and all these like VCs and famous people are trying it out.
00:09:44 ◼ ► Almost everyone can point something and say like, well, look at how valuable this was because, you know, famous or insightful person X
00:09:50 ◼ ► happened to be there and this is amazing that you have access to them and wow, isn't that great?
00:09:58 ◼ ► Like it's temporary in the sense that right now all these like VCs and celebrities and stuff are checking this out
00:10:08 ◼ ► But they're gonna move on and get bored of it too, just like everyone just like they always do because it's a big world.
00:10:16 ◼ ► So they're only gonna be it be there for a short time. In the meantime, the floodgates are going to slowly open and
00:10:22 ◼ ► flood the service with a whole bunch of people who you all don't want to hear from and who are gonna be competing
00:10:29 ◼ ► everyone's attention in these rooms that you want to get into and try to make your voice heard.
00:10:33 ◼ ► And so it's gonna just become like more crowded and the signals to noise ratio is going to decrease.
00:10:40 ◼ ► The quality level of the average participant is going to decrease and the whole service
00:11:00 ◼ ► high enough quality that anybody wants to hear it and I think it would just like grind most shows to a halt.
00:11:06 ◼ ► You know, I heard somebody discussing it. I forget who. I'm comparing it to a panel discussion at a conference.
00:11:15 ◼ ► except panel discussions at conferences usually are the least interesting conference sessions in my opinion and
00:11:20 ◼ ► I kind of find it to be kind of like an easy way out as a conference speaker because you don't have to do a
00:11:27 ◼ ► and there's less value there. Now imagine the panel discussion format with even less planning and
00:11:41 ◼ ► value for listeners consistently. To me it just seems like an easy way to make a whole bunch of like
00:11:55 ◼ ► and I'm not gonna say that like good stuff will never come up where you have like, you know
00:11:59 ◼ ► good people like telling their Steve Jobs stories and whatever else like that's gonna occasionally happen, but that's not the norm
00:12:09 ◼ ► that's going to become even less of the norm over time as the service scales to more and more
00:12:18 ◼ ► What happened to you being optimistic and not an old curmudgeon and not poo-pooing the new thing?
00:12:23 ◼ ► Remember when you were talking about that? You seemed to have turned over a new leaf with your pessimism.
00:12:31 ◼ ► One thing I'll say to reassure you on the Q&A at a conference point and this is gonna sound bad
00:12:42 ◼ ► get to pick who asked the question and they know at least something about the people they're picking and you can't see who they're not
00:12:53 ◼ ► You can't see them checking what your bio says how many followers you have who follows you, right?
00:12:57 ◼ ► And I suspect although I don't know because I have not hosted a room but I suspect that's the thing that you can and do
00:13:04 ◼ ► It's not a random selection of Q&A and even in the worst case like the only big conferences
00:13:10 ◼ ► I go to is you know, I used to go to PAX every year a while back and then of course I go to WWDC and
00:13:15 ◼ ► sometimes I really like the Q&A's. In fact, there was one session at PAX the entire two-hour session was
00:13:22 ◼ ► 100% Q&A now granted in like comedy type shows getting random questions from the audience is part of the fun
00:13:28 ◼ ► but on the flip side of that WWDC like there's a reason Apple got rid of the Q&A in their sessions mostly because they didn't want
00:13:34 ◼ ► to answer hard questions about the App Store but setting that aside the place where Q&A still exists at WWDC is
00:13:44 ◼ ► you know well established in a profession or whatever come up and do a talk not about Apple stuff and
00:13:49 ◼ ► you know again, sometimes the Q&A's there were terrible too, but sometimes they were really good, especially if it's a you know
00:14:00 ◼ ► loves and wants to hear things from every single person in line loves the person and gives them nice respectful
00:14:12 ◼ ► my main frustration with clubhouse now is still when someone tries to talk to me when the clubhouse is on I pull out one of
00:14:25 ◼ ► I'm I'm still investigating clubhouse sounds like Marco may not be investigating much longer, but you know, not everything is for every person
00:14:34 ◼ ► There's tons of things that we all don't do. I don't think Marco plays video games and streams himself
00:14:39 ◼ ► But that is a very popular thing to do despite the fact that Marco doesn't want to do it
00:14:42 ◼ ► Oh, yeah, and that and I mean I'm not saying anything like that. But yeah, I just I just
00:14:45 ◼ ► So far like I like when Grouro joined that that room everybody was talking about I saw and I saw the two of you were
00:14:55 ◼ ► That particular room demonstrated an anti pattern that happens not an I don't know. It's an anti pattern
00:15:02 ◼ ► Maybe it's a feature but it's it's an awkward thing that I've seen happen in clubhouse multiple times now in my tiny experience in clubhouse
00:15:18 ◼ ► they nominate them as a speaker and then all the audience wants to do is ask questions of the person who was just nominated as a
00:15:27 ◼ ► That's a little bit awkward and weird because like, you know, if who's running the show and I give a clubhouse would say well
00:15:34 ◼ ► It's just a big collaborative thing that just is an emergent property of the participants
00:15:38 ◼ ► But sometimes the person who started the rooms thinks they're running the show and then eventually they're not I
00:15:53 ◼ ► I would enjoy this a lot more and it would end it would be a much easier for me to listen to it
00:15:57 ◼ ► It should be a fish concert because they can nominate people to play guitar from the audience and Marco would love it
00:16:04 ◼ ► Maybe I'm just like a snob, but I mostly just want to hear the people who were good like I I want to hear like
00:16:20 ◼ ► I need Merlin on the show to tell me if I'm getting these references, right? I don't chat room
00:16:26 ◼ ► If I had a ticket to the to the Foo Fighters, I wouldn't want them to pick random people from the audience
00:16:33 ◼ ► I want I want to see Dave Grohl like I want like that's that's why I'm going you might like kiss guy
00:16:40 ◼ ► details right some famous band invited someone up on stage to play guitar and the person was amazing and
00:16:45 ◼ ► The band was amazed by the fact that they were amazing. And anyway, I mean, I'll look it up
00:16:53 ◼ ► Just trying to make a fish joke as far as I'm concerned. It's a bunch of people noodling around on stage
00:16:58 ◼ ► So who cares they bring us accurate from the audience. That's all I was doing. That's not it. But yeah, okay
00:17:03 ◼ ► I know that's why it's a joke. Okay. Well that went right off the rails like a clubhouse room
00:17:08 ◼ ► Hey, no, if only this that's the thing. It is not enough over talking clubhouse. That's what a clubhouse needs more people talking at once
00:17:18 ◼ ► Maybe again, maybe this must just be really wrong for me because what I hear on clubhouse
00:17:35 ◼ ► I think conference calls are one of the worst communication mechanisms we've ever devised as a species and this service basically is like
00:17:48 ◼ ► Wait, no you talk. I think you're muted. Wait now. No John John now you talk. I can hear you typing
00:17:57 ◼ ► Don't know why the two of you are complaining about conference calls. I'm on conference calls all day long
00:18:02 ◼ ► You two are not so you're desensitized. You don't realize how bad no no, it's the opposite. It's like being a desert island with fish
00:18:09 ◼ ► Even more like usually I am very fortunate and that usually I'm not on conference calls
00:18:18 ◼ ► Our wonderful sponsors and everything almost never make me do anything like this, but occasionally
00:18:27 ◼ ► occasionally they can't be talked out of it and occasionally I have to go on a conference call and
00:18:41 ◼ ► Why did this call have to have seven people on it when only one to two of them are actually talking ever?
00:18:48 ◼ ► During the whole call. I don't even know what the six of these seven people do their job titles seem
00:18:57 ◼ ► You're missing out on the the great part of the conference call where everybody has to introduce themselves and it takes half an hour, right?
00:19:30 ◼ ► That could have just been an email. So yeah, I'm not a fan of conference calls in case I guess that wasn't clear
00:19:44 ◼ ► Enthusiasm for it. It seems I think mine is even more reserved and Marco. I think that you've pretty much
00:19:50 ◼ ► Unequivocally decided it's not for you. And I think any of those conclusions is perfectly reasonable
00:19:55 ◼ ► but we should move along a little bit a gee Rambo did some investigations with regard to the
00:20:10 ◼ ► Gee says I just had a poke at the clubhouse app with a proxy given the recent concerns about contacts usage
00:20:18 ◼ ► The good part is that it's the quote unquote only thing it uploads about them the contacts on my test device were all fake and included
00:20:26 ◼ ► The clubhouse only uploaded the phone numbers another problem is that the API used to upload the phone numbers doesn't seem to be using SSL pinning
00:20:34 ◼ ► Also, if they just want to match people based on who they have phone numbers for in contacts, they should use one-way hashes
00:20:40 ◼ ► So that's some technical jargon to say that if there there are ways in which they could do this more safely
00:20:47 ◼ ► But the good news is all they're taking is numeric phone numbers and seemingly nothing else
00:20:51 ◼ ► So it could be worse, but it's still not great. Yeah, I mean they have access to everything
00:20:56 ◼ ► Like the fact that the fact they're just doing phone numbers now unless you're going to constantly monitor or whatever like that could change at any time
00:21:01 ◼ ► Yeah, I just I still don't see how this is anything but a privacy disaster. And by the way
00:21:07 ◼ ► Probably a violation of GDPR also because all those phone numbers that people are uploading those people
00:21:20 ◼ ► So it's got to be illegal in the EU for them to even possess this data in the first place
00:21:26 ◼ ► Yeah, I don't know what the GDPR says about data given to other private citizens that you know
00:21:39 ◼ ► I'm sure they'll work it out with whatever countries they're dealing with stuff in and by the way on the subject of hashing which I also
00:21:56 ◼ ► Key space of email addresses and the email addresses are constrained. They can't be unlimited length
00:22:04 ◼ ► One way hashes are not quite so one way as you might think they are when it comes to email addresses
00:22:19 ◼ ► The the supposed beauty and promise of clubhouse is that you know, it's not recorded. It's not a podcast
00:22:27 ◼ ► Oh, well this shortly after recorded the show where we mentioned these stories about Steve Jobs clubhouse
00:22:35 ◼ ► Because it was recorded. I obviously I mean there's nothing you can do to stop people from recording it
00:22:45 ◼ ► I'm not quite sure how this recording was made but not only was the stories from Steve Jobs thing recorded
00:23:00 ◼ ► It's on YouTube link will be in the show notes and related to that. There was a story in ink
00:23:12 ◼ ► And that's not even its worst privacy problem a little bit sensational but in their terms of service that nobody reads
00:23:18 ◼ ► It does say clubhouse says solely for the purposes of supporting incident investigations
00:23:23 ◼ ► We temporarily record the audio in a room while the room is live if a user reports a trust and safety violation while the room
00:23:28 ◼ ► Is active we retain the audio for the purpose investigating the incident and delete it when the investigation is complete if no incident is reported
00:23:51 ◼ ► Like a report a recent speaker if someone comes on stage and says something bad and you want to report them like this is all sort
00:23:59 ◼ ► To sort of adjudicate those they have to have a recording of what went down rather than well
00:24:03 ◼ ► They don't have to but it's it's better to have a recording than to just take someone's word for it that someone did something bad
00:24:11 ◼ ► Lest you believe that clubhouse really is completely like a wisp on the wind and it's here and it's gone
00:24:17 ◼ ► Just like all those other things whether it be Instagram stories or snapchat or whatever
00:24:25 ◼ ► Whatever they want and if you're wondering what they're doing with it, you can read their 800 page
00:24:33 ◼ ► They are you know, they're who knows what they're doing with it. And if you're uncomfortable with your things being recorded
00:24:40 ◼ ► Don't use clubhouse. But then again, you probably also shouldn't use Instagram stories or snapchat or any other service that records your audio
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00:26:54 ◼ ► So John you also defected away from clubhouse and you've tried Twitter spaces notice the tried is in scare quotes in this item
00:27:02 ◼ ► Mm-hmm. I tried sure this clubhouse. This is like this is like right after we finished recording
00:27:09 ◼ ► We were debating whether it was gonna be a future we purchased and Marco said is there it's gonna be both
00:27:15 ◼ ► Twitter very quickly announced a bunch of stuff that they're doing one of which is hey, it's like clubhouse
00:27:25 ◼ ► Basically the way I found out about this so I don't use the Twitter official Twitter crime
00:27:32 ◼ ► I come on a tweet that I can't see the features of because Twitter is evil and doesn't allow third-party clients to have access to
00:27:37 ◼ ► All the features so for example polls if you see a poll, I can't see polls than my third-party Twitter client
00:27:57 ◼ ► Open in Twitter open in browser even with the link redirect thing and I ended up in the official Twitter client. I'm so sorry
00:28:09 ◼ ► I think I wanted to either reply or compose a tweet or something like I wanted to do something quickly and I was already in
00:28:14 ◼ ► The Twitter app so I pressed the little like compose button or something like that and it popped up like a constellation
00:28:45 ◼ ► Do you want to come into John's Twitter space and space with him and then so my icon is a little?
00:28:51 ◼ ► My icons in the little Twitter space and then another icon appears and then another icon and then another icon then another icon
00:29:04 ◼ ► I'm in a thing and like my my I think I found like the mute thing or whatever and turn my mic off and
00:29:09 ◼ ► Then I was like because look I didn't know what Twitter spaces was at this point and I'm like
00:29:15 ◼ ► What just it looks so much like clubhouse and like did I accidentally swipe over to the clubhouse?
00:29:26 ◼ ► What I would have done speaking of chat room is typed into the chat room and said, sorry everybody
00:29:40 ◼ ► like the room had filled with like a dozen people and like the short period of time very short like
00:29:45 ◼ ► Seconds people had come in because I guess they got like push notifications and then I just bailed so
00:29:50 ◼ ► People who came into my to my Twitter space because I'm somehow in the beta or I don't know
00:30:00 ◼ ► I apologize for making a space and I apologize for not saying anything and just immediately leaving
00:30:04 ◼ ► This gets to what Marco was saying before was it was it Marco saying like you have no urge to speak
00:30:09 ◼ ► Yeah, any of these things I also this this is gonna sound weird for somebody who literally speaks into a microphone for hours every single
00:30:27 ◼ ► I haven't I don't have any urge to speak in that scenario now, and I don't know why that is like I
00:30:35 ◼ ► You know like it was a thing that I thought about doing and was excited to have the opportunity to do
00:30:40 ◼ ► But just I don't know if it's a different skill set or I just got to get in the right vibe
00:30:47 ◼ ► Not enthusiastic about hosting a room and not particularly enthusiastic about participating in a room. I think when it comes to clubhouse
00:30:55 ◼ ► I'm just a lurker and when it comes to Twitter spaces apparently I'm an accidental activator
00:31:13 ◼ ► Super follows is where you can charge people to get access to exclusive content on Twitter
00:31:18 ◼ ► Which is interesting does that means Twitter is gonna have to you know get people's payment methods and just you know the whole deal right now
00:31:25 ◼ ► No one pays to use Twitter as far as I know right. I think that's right unless you're you know advertising with them
00:31:33 ◼ ► And then you can offer them you know bonus content tweets that only they can see a group a newsletter
00:31:40 ◼ ► Who knows this is not a release feature at least not released to me so but but it's Twitter
00:31:46 ◼ ► This was it that like that investor meetings would say we're gonna do a thing where you can charge people to get exclusive content
00:31:51 ◼ ► So let's see how that turns out, but you know hey at least Twitter is trying something and then the final thing is communities
00:31:57 ◼ ► Which is like they show in the screenshot here groups one group called crazy for cats one group called surf girls
00:32:10 ◼ ► It's like every time you look at what these things have to squint to say who are they trying to copy so it's like okay?
00:32:32 ◼ ► Yeah, I try periodically to go to the official Twitter client just to see you know what's going on there and
00:32:40 ◼ ► There are a couple things I like about it, but overwhelmingly so much about it. I really dislike and
00:33:02 ◼ ► Certainly for my mentions, and it seems like every time I arrive at the official Twitter client. It's just like hmm
00:33:13 ◼ ► Why I don't have any idea why but that's where you're gonna start because that sounds fun
00:33:45 ◼ ► Uses the official Twitter client because they'll complain about something like seeing ads or some other thing and their
00:34:05 ◼ ► There are lots of good ones to choose from I use Twitter epic and love it tweetbot is also very good
00:34:08 ◼ ► There are others to choose from it's so much better if you just want a sane reverse chronological
00:34:14 ◼ ► Timeline of tweets in order from the people you follow which sounds like what Twitter should always be
00:34:27 ◼ ► But in a third-party client you don't get ads unless they're ads from third-party client itself
00:34:33 ◼ ► Which you can usually pay to get rid of and if you can't use a different third-party client where you can
00:34:36 ◼ ► It's just so much nicer experience like I don't I think very often that if I couldn't use a third-party client
00:34:50 ◼ ► That actually is I think the best reason to use the main client is if you want to use Twitter less
00:35:22 ◼ ► That's pretty much all it's good for and so if that's what you're going for if you're like currently like super addicted to Twitter
00:35:34 ◼ ► Then by all means delete every other Twitter app on your phone and just use the main app because it will force you
00:35:45 ◼ ► Can you try can you speaking of that? Can you both launch the official Twitter app right now and long?
00:35:53 ◼ ► I get what appear there three icons and this is very reminiscent of what was it path that did this like radial thing way back
00:35:59 ◼ ► In the day, which is really beautiful social network, even though it was otherwise useless
00:36:13 ◼ ► Make a tweet with an animated gif and then there's like a box with a landscape in it and I presume that means
00:36:28 ◼ ► Anyway, I've got the same first two buttons as Casey but my third button is a diamond made out of dots
00:36:35 ◼ ► so I just wanted to see if it was rolled out for everybody if I'm just a lucky person, but so instead of the
00:36:45 ◼ ► Which honestly even if I had looked at I would have had no idea what that was going to do
00:36:49 ◼ ► I I there's a part of me that wants to just use the official Twitter client and live the way the
00:37:01 ◼ ► Like I don't know people that's why I said I made the point to say it on the podcast because like
00:37:05 ◼ ► For regular people might be they don't care but like it's so much better than than the other
00:37:11 ◼ ► Than the official client if you just want like like imagine if when you looked in your email inbox
00:37:20 ◼ ► You'd be like, but I just just show me all the emails I got in chronological order. I'll go through them, right?
00:37:24 ◼ ► I don't just try to guess at what I want to see like if that's how you if that is how you want to interact
00:37:32 ◼ ► I'll show me some popular stuff and then I'll bail but if you want to interact with like you interact with
00:37:41 ◼ ► Timeline just to get rid of ads like and yeah, I know he's like who you didn't just say you can't use polls and stuff
00:37:53 ◼ ► That's why everyone has to put the just show me the results thing and they limit the number of choices
00:37:57 ◼ ► I tried to do a Twitter poll like sometime this past year and I was so angry that I couldn't put all my options in
00:38:02 ◼ ► Because there was a limit it's like five options or something and I had six for my joke poll
00:38:09 ◼ ► Five options whatever the hell it is. I'm not saying this should be a thousand but it should be more than like a handful
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00:40:08 ◼ ► So speaking of official clients that are meh and third-party apps that are way better overcast 2021.1 is out
00:40:29 ◼ ► I you know, I actually I really like I think I first saw this from Curtis Herbert and slopes
00:40:35 ◼ ► And then Marco adopted it shortly thereafter, but I do like this kind of year and then increment version scheme
00:40:48 ◼ ► Yeah, and I think I might kind of regret this versioning scheme just because it's so clumsy you got version inflation
00:40:56 ◼ ► You literally can't like Apple does not allow you to ship a version to the App Store that it's like numerically less than the one
00:41:14 ◼ ► Five thousand dot two you can put an exclamation point and then they'll treat this factorial. Yeah, maybe that's like all the fields in Photoshop
00:41:21 ◼ ► Or you can put in math expressions and it was expand them for you. I don't think Photoshop on a trans factorial now
00:41:41 ◼ ► Number one modernize a lot of the guts of the app a lot of the like data layer the network layer all that stuff
00:41:56 ◼ ► Both it could be you know optimized to whatever it needs to be for modern day, but also the driving factor behind it was I
00:42:10 ◼ ► sync engine and all the you know model and data layers and stuff as the main app because
00:42:24 ◼ ► It was to the point where I knew like, you know phone to watch communication is so unreliable
00:42:30 ◼ ► With with the watch connectivity framework and everything. It's so unreliable. I knew like the key to happiness here is to have the watch
00:42:53 ◼ ► Which is a common use granted probably even the most the most common use but that should be the only communication
00:42:59 ◼ ► It does you know the phone telling it what's playing on the phone the watch telling the phone like hey
00:43:04 ◼ ► the user just hit pause pause the audio whatever that kind of thing but not using the phone app and that communication channel as this like
00:43:15 ◼ ► For people who are wanting to listen to stuff directly on the watch without their phone present
00:43:51 ◼ ► Intertwined with UI kit or with the audio engine had to be broken up and made you know more orthogonal
00:43:59 ◼ ► So I couldn't have like a little clause in the sync engine as oh well if you know if this is
00:44:05 ◼ ► you know sync this way or if this condition happens in the model layer go tell the audio engine to do this or
00:44:11 ◼ ► Fire this UI notification directly to the UI of the app, you know, I could I had to like break those bonds make the code more
00:44:19 ◼ ► isolated more orthogonal more independent from the other components of the app so that like the sync and model layer could sync itself
00:44:27 ◼ ► Without any UI kit code without any you know tying in with the with the phone app in ways that I couldn't bring over the watch
00:44:38 ◼ ► Because to run the sync engine and everything to run that whole thing the whole data engine on the watch
00:44:56 ◼ ► Background operation on the watch is very limited if you use I think two seconds of CPU time your app gets killed
00:45:06 ◼ ► So it's a it's a much more constrained environment for resources and for what apps are allowed to do and when?
00:45:11 ◼ ► So I had to make everything, you know efficient and it was already pretty close, but it was it took some work and then finally
00:45:27 ◼ ► While it has many challenges to it is a hell of a lot better than watch kit in so many ways
00:45:37 ◼ ► So, you know, I was willing to tolerate the pain of learning Swift UI and all the weird walls you hit when using Swift UI
00:46:09 ◼ ► The sync queue for sync operations like for how those are scheduled stuff like that so that they could then tell the UI
00:46:15 ◼ ► Things like whether sync is in progress what the download state is of an episode. It's you know things like that
00:46:22 ◼ ► It's much much much easier and better to have a lot of that stuff be in Swift classes and so
00:46:35 ◼ ► required a lot of rewriting stuff in Swift or writing shims on top of things in Swift, so
00:46:41 ◼ ► That was the main challenge of this of this version is over the last few I think about three or four months or so
00:46:51 ◼ ► bridging things to Swift and making things more Swift friendly when I wasn't rewriting them and then rebuild and then
00:46:59 ◼ ► like for syncing everything standalone from the rest of the iOS app so that it could be built and run on the watch and
00:47:09 ◼ ► That's what this update was and what users saw was basically like bug fixes and new watch
00:47:17 ◼ ► That's like you know this massive amount of work you know massive amounts of change all of that to basically see
00:47:29 ◼ ► But those you know that's all that's the kind of thing that I really needed and and the watch app was in a really bad
00:47:34 ◼ ► State before this it really didn't work well for a lot of people and so I had to really tackle that and
00:47:39 ◼ ► This allowed me to do a bunch of other stuff like there was a whole thing about I did rewrite all the intent handling
00:47:51 ◼ ► old UI app delegate thing to UI scene delegate that the scene delegate API that was launched a few years ago and
00:48:02 ◼ ► And then I might as well you know rewrite my app delegate since I have to write it anyway
00:48:06 ◼ ► I might as well rewrite the app delegate in Swift and as any iOS developer can tell you rewriting your app delegate
00:48:15 ◼ ► So it's just like there was tons of stuff like that where in order to do some modern thing I had to
00:48:22 ◼ ► Either rewrite something from scratch or at least significantly change it to use a new API
00:48:32 ◼ ► There's a lot of code modernization to do a lot of rewriting or refactoring or shimming to do
00:48:55 ◼ ► But my customers are demanding that in in moderate numbers, and so I figured I should probably do it
00:49:03 ◼ ► There's a bunch of changes to car plays abilities in iOS 14 that this version does not tackle yet
00:49:13 ◼ ► But that's gonna be something I tackle next and I think a lot of this groundwork is going to help that
00:49:21 ◼ ► What is it that carplay can do now that it couldn't before for your for your perspective again?
00:49:29 ◼ ► But I think you're able to have a lot more control over the types of UI that you can display then previously you know before
00:49:38 ◼ ► You know the car player piece I have now is built on this older API where you basically
00:49:50 ◼ ► What what are the list elements of the root screen give me you know give me the list items
00:49:55 ◼ ► Person tapped in this item give me give me the list elements in the next level of the tree or whatever it was very very
00:50:00 ◼ ► Simple like list based thing and then the now playing screen. I had almost no control over
00:50:13 ◼ ► How much but it adds more places where you can customize what the UI actually is including on an out playing screen?
00:50:19 ◼ ► Which which is very important to me because I really want to be able to tackle that in a good way and so
00:50:34 ◼ ► It's a feature request from the chat room for a chapter skip and chapter control and display on the now playing screen
00:50:40 ◼ ► Yeah, and carplay yeah, that's that's certainly on my list. I don't know to what degree that's possibly like there
00:50:51 ◼ ► You could offer a speed control, but if you did like you you would have to say all right
00:50:58 ◼ ► Here's the list of speed I support and then the only way the user could go through them would be like
00:51:06 ◼ ► If for every tap it would go to the next speed and so you'd have to like if you wanted to slow it down by
00:51:11 ◼ ► One you have to tap through every single go through chipmunk. Yeah, okay to go through every single other speed first
00:51:23 ◼ ► And so I didn't even I didn't even ship the speed feature even though I could have easily I just but I disabled it because the
00:51:29 ◼ ► Experience was so bad. So with this new carplay API, I believe we're able to do better things like that
00:51:35 ◼ ► So things like having a better speed picker or having a chapter list and chapter picker
00:51:41 ◼ ► I think will become possible with this new API, but until I actually try it I won't know
00:51:50 ◼ ► So Casey and I have quotas based on our union membership and we have to point out that if you did have any kind of
00:51:55 ◼ ► Automated testing that work you did to divorce your sync engine from your UI. It probably wouldn't have happened because you would have already had them separated
00:52:03 ◼ ► It's just so you could easily test the sync engine before you wrote the UI just saying not only that not only that but since we're
00:52:08 ◼ ► Beating on Marco now the one of the advantages of having any sort of automated testing is that when you do utterly destructive things like
00:52:17 ◼ ► Not all of that and maybe even not a ton of it could have been covered by automated tests
00:52:22 ◼ ► but presumably more than zero could have been and in one of the things that I love most about when I do have good test coverage and
00:52:29 ◼ ► Do as I say not as I do I paint this picture like a unit test everything and I don't very far from it, but
00:52:42 ◼ ► Then just run your unit tests to make sure they still pass and if they do you have some amount of confidence certainly more than zero
00:52:48 ◼ ► That everything should still work the way it's supposed to and that doesn't replace all the human testing that I'm quite confident Marco did
00:52:58 ◼ ► But nevertheless it does give you some amount of confidence and some amount of flexibility and I guess a parachute
00:53:04 ◼ ► You know over you behind you whatever when you're making these sweeping changes like you did. I wanted to also address one more thing quickly
00:53:15 ◼ ► Is talking about how I didn't mention the audio engine for the watch app. So when I was writing voice boost 2 last year. I
00:53:32 ◼ ► I rewrote not only the voice boost 2 component and which and therefore, you know smart the smart speed implementation within it, but also
00:53:41 ◼ ► The surrounding audio API at that time. I also switched from the old deprecated a you graph API
00:53:51 ◼ ► AV audio engine which has actually lots of problems, but I worked I figured ways around them
00:54:07 ◼ ► So I have laid almost all of the groundwork to port my audio engine to the watch as well
00:54:14 ◼ ► The only thing I couldn't get to be available on the watch in a way I could use on the phone or at all
00:54:44 ◼ ► But those those API's don't give you the flexibility to process the audio the way my audio engine does
00:55:02 ◼ ► Which I've never all the audio processing I've done before I've never written a speed up algorithm. I
00:55:07 ◼ ► intend to tackle that at some point just to try to see if I can do it to an acceptable level of quality I
00:55:20 ◼ ► PS ola kind of algorithm or TS ola it's like I've looked at other like what these algorithms are
00:55:27 ◼ ► And I think I could do it slightly reasonably in a way that would be good enough quality for speech on the watch
00:55:39 ◼ ► Without in an API where I can process the audio in other ways as well without writing my own speed up algorithm
00:55:47 ◼ ► Maybe you should just like change the icon or finally get rid of the custom font just so people could be in an upper
00:56:00 ◼ ► Whatever I do for the like UI redesign that I've been thinking of brainstorming about for five years
00:56:09 ◼ ► I remember being indignant that everyone complained the iPhone 4s wasn't a big upgrade because it looked the same on the outside and that is
00:56:15 ◼ ► The eternal curse of people with GUI apps that don't change the GUI people think nothing changed
00:56:21 ◼ ► The reality is my customers are really good. They I've not I haven't gotten a lot of crap from anybody about this like
00:56:33 ◼ ► Negative reviews somewhere. I forget whether it was App Store or what but a few people complaining before I had released this
00:57:00 ◼ ► And so there that is actually a problem with this version number scheme that it kind of looks like year dot month
00:57:09 ◼ ► Well, and it just so happened that during most of 2020 like during the first half of 2020
00:57:15 ◼ ► I released about one version a month. Mm-hmm. And so for the flight the first half of the year it matched up pretty well to the
00:57:22 ◼ ► But no, it's not it's just like it's just sequential numbering. It's just whatever whenever it's ready
00:57:27 ◼ ► I you know, I shipped that version like what if I wanted to ship two versions in a month?
00:57:32 ◼ ► I think I was on a version a patch version a day with front and center for the first few weeks that it was out
00:57:47 ◼ ► Is that it sure looks like it's date month instead of just you know your year month instead of just year
00:57:52 ◼ ► But anyway at some point I do intend to do like a larger UI redesign and I'm I've decided throughout all this
00:58:06 ◼ ► And and a few other niceties and I'm I could probably I mean realistically I could require I was 14 now
00:58:18 ◼ ► so again a UI redesign is definitely on my list of things to do but because it's not like super pressing and
00:58:28 ◼ ► it just keeps not getting done and it might be another year or two before I before I even tackle it because
00:58:44 ◼ ► But mostly just under the hood stuff what I want to do next is features like people people been asking for certain features for a long
00:58:53 ◼ ► massive UI redesign which I mean it's a podcast app, but the UI doesn't matter that much and
00:58:58 ◼ ► The reality is features matter more to my customers at this point. And so a UI redesign is more like self-serving
00:59:06 ◼ ► But what my customers want is features and so I want to work on that for a little while first
00:59:13 ◼ ► Semiannual overcast feature requests. I have two of them one easy one hard catch-up mode
00:59:23 ◼ ► I actually wrote server-side support for catch-up mode, but it's kind of buggy. This is the function on the server that handles
00:59:38 ◼ ► Finicky and incredibly high-stakes if I screw that up the servers explode basically because it's just
00:59:48 ◼ ► Massive and it's dealing with the biggest database table in in the in the app by a long shot, which is the table of like
01:00:03 ◼ ► It's highly optimized and if anything goes wrong with that table or with with the function that that
01:00:10 ◼ ► Determines what to write to that table and more importantly when not to write to that table
01:00:18 ◼ ► Tackle that yet because last time I tried tackling it I blew up the servers. It sucked for a few days
01:00:29 ◼ ► I'd rather not touch that area of the app because to touch it for this like relatively low needs feature is
01:00:41 ◼ ► Well since you brought up that feature my suggestion for how to deal with that is not to screw up your the table you were
01:00:50 ◼ ► Participating in this special mode and then have your own separate table. That is only for podcast marked in this mode
01:00:59 ◼ ► Well, if it's one of these podcasts do this, but I'm one of these podcasts do this and now I got to do everything twice
01:01:03 ◼ ► But it will totally save you from hosing your very precious table because like you said, this is a small feature
01:01:10 ◼ ► for tracking their own metadata just for these kind of podcasts in this weird-ass mode that you can call time shifting mode and
01:01:21 ◼ ► Feature that almost no one will use and compromise the entire design of your app and your biggest scariest table
01:01:36 ◼ ► The UI will let me squish those two little endpoints together and there's plenty more room to squish them
01:01:40 ◼ ► And I want to when I'm crushing their head. I want to get that thing back together. So whatever the limit is now
01:01:46 ◼ ► It's like what 10 seconds 5 seconds. I don't even know I've never I've never thought of sending a 5-second clip
01:01:58 ◼ ► Whatever the limit now is it's like a centimeter between those two endpoints and you could definitely squish them farther than that
01:02:14 ◼ ► Placing the endpoints instead of rolling my fat meat finger and sort of like twisting it a little bit then trying to release it from
01:02:21 ◼ ► Oh, no, but moved because you're trying to make a one-second clip. I know just say it's a minute long clip
01:02:30 ◼ ► And sometimes the whatever your default zoom the granularity doesn't let me get like this one people have words that are strung together very quickly
01:02:36 ◼ ► I just want to slice right in between the words and I can't get the thing on the right pixel
01:02:44 ◼ ► It's just slowly make a tiny audio editor inside overcast, but you want to make an audio editor anyway
01:02:48 ◼ ► So might as well work on this now some kind of pinch to zoom feature for the for the timeline so I can get more accurate
01:03:01 ◼ ► Yeah, the the whole feature of clip sharing I would like to give some attention to here's the challenge there
01:03:07 ◼ ► So the automatic kicking machine is still necessary and the need for it seems to slowly be getting higher
01:03:17 ◼ ► It's like it's actually a form of entertainment like is it gonna do it the first time this time? No, it's not and
01:03:26 ◼ ► granularity of the of the scrummers in part because what the automatic kicking machine does
01:03:48 ◼ ► An m4v file from that that API just occasionally hangs the I think it's a V asset exporter or something like that
01:03:53 ◼ ► It just occasionally hangs for no visible reason and it just will hang forever and the solution
01:04:08 ◼ ► Just cancel that job and start a new one with very slightly different input and see if that works
01:04:16 ◼ ► I called I called that a while back the automatic kicking machine and what I do is every time that it stalls and
01:04:25 ◼ ► It restarts the job. It subtly tweaks the starting and ending timestamp by some tiny random amounts
01:04:32 ◼ ► So it's not enough that you would really notice it. But if I start letting you do very granular
01:04:38 ◼ ► Starting an endpoint or start start point an endpoint editing. You might actually start to notice that
01:04:48 ◼ ► We won't notice it no matter what like I know what you're saying that it would be a larger like if you so carefully placed it
01:04:55 ◼ ► right sure and all I want to do is get closer to it like presumably your random thing is sort of
01:05:00 ◼ ► Oscillating around the point that was selected and I'm fine with that. That's what you got to do with the stupid kicking machine
01:05:05 ◼ ► I'm fine. I just want a little bit more granularity, right? And so part number two of this comment is
01:05:15 ◼ ► To use a whole different method of generating the video to avoid the need for this at all
01:05:22 ◼ ► I'm basically generating a core animation set of layers and I say I go, you know between points
01:05:32 ◼ ► At you know points one, two, three, four and five make the timestamps this this this this and this and then you know
01:05:38 ◼ ► Overly this audio in the background under it. I'm able to then pass that to the AV asset exporter and it generates the video for me
01:05:44 ◼ ► What I want to switch to is a much more complicated way of doing it where I have to generate every frame as an image
01:05:56 ◼ ► The reason I want to do that is first of all, I want to get rid of the automatic kicking machine
01:06:16 ◼ ► Transcription API when I wrote the feature. I don't think there was an offline running version of the transcription
01:06:32 ◼ ► To have it be more visually interesting when people see a clip without this without their sound on
01:06:43 ◼ ► Possibly even use the text in the editing view depending on how that API works how well it works
01:06:48 ◼ ► Yeah, you got you got a lot of people fix miss translations now, that's the key part of that. Sure
01:06:53 ◼ ► Yeah, and that's that's why like it might not end up being very worth it in the output video
01:06:59 ◼ ► But it could it could definitely be worth it in the editor. So anyway, I want to play with that
01:07:15 ◼ ► Really, but the people the people who do use it are both promoting your app and also promoting podcasts
01:07:21 ◼ ► I think it punches above its weight in terms of a feature like you don't necessarily need everyone to use it
01:07:25 ◼ ► but every person who does use it is sending out into the world a thing they enjoyed from a podcast and an overcast logo and
01:07:38 ◼ ► It's I always just want to tap on them and get taken to an overcast link to the rest of the episode like basically URLs
01:07:50 ◼ ► Don't you have that feature for like chapter art you can tap on it and takes you somewhere or am I miss remembering?
01:07:58 ◼ ► But no, I mean the problem the problem that you're talking about now though is a problem like just in in the sharing
01:08:17 ◼ ► Already supplying the data and the only way I know how to get or the only way I'm able to in this context
01:08:24 ◼ ► I was thinking like in a quick time world where you'd have multiple tracks and one of the tracks would be like a
01:08:34 ◼ ► It's just like I'm thinking of it from sharing purposes and you're right the most things that you share on no matter what you did
01:08:44 ◼ ► Like when you share a blog post people tap on the link and get the full blog post when you when I share a podcast
01:08:49 ◼ ► I always want be able to I love the fact that it's a clip that they don't have to do anything. Here it is
01:08:53 ◼ ► Here's the clip and you're listening and I love the fact that it's a movie see that past episode
01:09:00 ◼ ► Hey, what podcast is that from despite the fact that the name of the podcast and logo of the podcast is in the video?
01:09:06 ◼ ► They don't have any way to find it except for going to Google and typing in like accidental tech podcasts
01:09:19 ◼ ► Get them out of your app and into the wider world because the reason I use the clips feature as much as I do
01:09:25 ◼ ► Which is not that much but still some is I love to be able to share fun parts of podcasts half
01:09:31 ◼ ► Granted half of my clips that I send her, you know to just friends through messages when someone we know said something funny on a podcast
01:09:38 ◼ ► Here's this clip from this thing or check out this part of this episode or whatever or I use them as snarky comebacks when people
01:09:44 ◼ ► Complain about something on a podcast that I was on and then I send them a clip addressing whatever their point was and then I
01:09:53 ◼ ► Like the feature I think is it is super useful for a work has to have in it and not only that but I see tons
01:10:00 ◼ ► Of similar features from people who use other podcast clients including ones with transcription on them
01:10:07 ◼ ► Most people don't use them, but there's enough that I see them and there's enough that I know other people have transcription
01:10:16 ◼ ► So now don't tell me because I agree with John I love this even though I don't use it that often
01:10:25 ◼ ► And I think we talked about that when the future first rolled out. But yeah, I mean, yeah
01:10:57 ◼ ► people who use the website player while logged in and it is used by about a quarter of as many people as
01:11:07 ◼ ► My goodness, so it's not it's not it's it's just it's not a large portion of the user base
01:11:18 ◼ ► Which is which is why I'm embarrassed whenever I mess it up, but clip sharing is a ton of work to do that feature
01:11:29 ◼ ► To make it better. I have to like rewrite it basically and so it would be a large amount of
01:11:48 ◼ ► I do things all the time that are time poorly spent just because I want them to be done
01:12:00 ◼ ► I'm maybe it's just me in the circle who travel in but I see a lot of clips shared not just from overcast
01:12:06 ◼ ► So someone's sharing clips from somewhere and if people aren't doing it from overcast that much
01:12:10 ◼ ► Maybe it's because it doesn't occur to people to do it or whatever and granted the editing interface is
01:12:18 ◼ ► But I think it's it's free advertising for your app and it is advertising for podcasts in general
01:12:24 ◼ ► But anyway, if you don't if you bail on all that just make the minimum size smaller. It's really easy to change the number
01:12:29 ◼ ► Well, I'm excited the shift and and I think it certainly seems to be well received I've enjoyed it
01:12:37 ◼ ► I haven't yet gone on a run with just my watch but the the watch app certainly visually seems to be way way way better
01:12:57 ◼ ► But you talked a lot about having been porting a lot to Swift and you've kind of made references to that in the past couple
01:13:05 ◼ ► Do you feel like your default state is now Swift or do you still think that you're reaching for objective-c?
01:13:13 ◼ ► During this version is when I crossed over like I don't know exactly when it was during this version
01:13:42 ◼ ► I the to quota underscore, you know, let's let's pull in that thread a little bit. Yeah, unpack that a little bit
01:13:48 ◼ ► Yeah, unpack that there you go. Sorry. I got it wrong. You're right. You're right. We'll fix in post. That's what we'll do. I
01:13:56 ◼ ► Syntactic and API differences, you know just small stuff where like I could save a bunch of keystrokes doing this
01:14:28 ◼ ► Say char. Yeah. Yeah, then you don't say char characters. Yeah. All right. I'll enumerate my char characters
01:14:34 ◼ ► Anyway, swifty numbs. Swifty numbs are great. I agree there swifty numbs are frickin amazing
01:14:43 ◼ ► I mean that's that's a just to bring destiny into this because I always must do this is what they call in destiny and in
01:14:56 ◼ ► The things Marco is talking about so far are what they call in the gaming world quality of life improvements
01:15:01 ◼ ► Like oh, it's easier to get to your inventory screen and you can delete these items and sets of five instead of individually and you know
01:15:11 ◼ ► You know sort of the drudgery the chores of whatever task you're trying to accomplish and just making them easier
01:15:30 ◼ ► Even if you know how to do the objective C version like the back of your hand like it's totally instinctive
01:15:35 ◼ ► There's just mechanically more to do than to do the same job. So if I feel like enums and Swift are the same deal
01:15:43 ◼ ► You can do the same thing with a bunch of pound defines or constants or static variables or all the other tools that are available
01:15:50 ◼ ► But Swift has this one tool to do it and it's incredibly powerful and doesn't involve a lot of typing
01:15:55 ◼ ► It's a quality of life improvement and that's setting aside the safety stuff of like run all the different safety things
01:16:00 ◼ ► Just setting all that aside forgetting about like Oh reducing bugs or whatever just the process of typing the code
01:16:15 ◼ ► but like things like what you said about making classes or making types or making protocols and
01:16:32 ◼ ► It changes the way I code changes the way I structure things in certain ways and it makes certain things a lot easier or better
01:16:50 ◼ ► I still name my stuff beginning with OC and I'll tell you why it's not because I'm like
01:16:55 ◼ ► You know being stubborn and bucking the trend or whatever. It's because I search my code. I
01:17:06 ◼ ► If a class has a generic name without a prefix without my little OC prefix in the front of it
01:17:15 ◼ ► But the other classes won't be in your code when you do command shift F. They're in frameworks
01:17:27 ◼ ► Right now for like writing new Swift code and Swift UI code is to not prefix stuff with your own prefix
01:17:40 ◼ ► Object was called playlist instead of OC playlist and I had and I did a string search for playlist in my entire app
01:17:49 ◼ ► OC playlist commands and objects and there's just certain times when like I use it all the time
01:17:58 ◼ ► Dropping all the prefixes from all the API's might be a mistake for lots of other reasons like even the framework API's
01:18:07 ◼ ► Because it makes it harder to like search Google and Stack Overflow for things like that, too
01:18:15 ◼ ► List or am I talking about like, you know an NS list or whatever? I know that's not really a thing but like I
01:18:24 ◼ ► Those like two-letter prefixes on things because it makes it easier for me to find in my code base
01:18:37 ◼ ► But doing just a basic text search is so much faster and easier and I do it all the time and to not have named
01:18:51 ◼ ► Which you said it like the the the culture now and Swift is not to do that whereas an object you see it was to
01:19:01 ◼ ► I put well first I wasn't even thinking about it and just typing but then eventually I realized oh
01:19:09 ◼ ► so I did the FNC for front and center right FNC whatever was the class names because I am I am a
01:19:14 ◼ ► Strong proponent, let's say of namespaces in other languages, but the problem my first problem was I had no idea how namespaces worked in Swift. So
01:19:22 ◼ ► I was like do I need to do this is something not gonna work out better safe than sorry FNC in front of all my
01:19:28 ◼ ► Classes, but eventually I learned that that is not in the culture and not strictly necessary according to what everyone else was doing
01:19:44 ◼ ► And I think I'm probably benefiting in my searching when I search for things like the NS prefix sort of getting me out
01:19:51 ◼ ► I'm sure that I'm gonna get a result that has to do with programming if I type in a string
01:20:07 ◼ ► Google kind of figures it out within the project. I haven't found it to be that much of a problem that said I
01:20:13 ◼ ► Still don't know how Swift namespacing works. By the way, I I would like to know but apparently not enough for me to look it up
01:20:23 ◼ ► Totally unprefixed I ran into a namespacing issue for the exactly the reason that Marco said if you name things in a generic way
01:20:31 ◼ ► I think I made a tweet about this like the incredible guts that it took for Swift UI to call one of its classes view
01:20:36 ◼ ► View like oh really view you're just gonna take that name, but of course, it's not like they're taking it forever
01:20:48 ◼ ► but in switch glass as you can imagine I have things in the code that represent the apps that appear in the palette and
01:21:02 ◼ ► Preview or an Xcode where they use the same symbol app and it was conflicting with mine and I had to qualify mine
01:21:07 ◼ ► I had to I had a place in my code that just said app that runs perfectly fine in the running app
01:21:12 ◼ ► But in the preview it was flipping out and I could not figure out what it was and then I changed it to switch glass
01:21:24 ◼ ► Sit down and talk about what are we doing with namespaces here in Swift because I thought it was perfectly safe for me to call
01:21:28 ◼ ► My stuff app, but apparently that is not true and now I'm a little bit angry and I don't know what to do
01:21:36 ◼ ► so this is just this is one of those moments where I know I'm just inviting a bunch of follow-up, but my my
01:21:41 ◼ ► Limited understanding of namespacing and Swift is that basically each module is its own namespace?
01:21:50 ◼ ► Concept of namespacing the closest you can do is have an enumeration that has no cases in it
01:22:04 ◼ ► But it's not like say C sharp or something like that where you can explicitly define a namespace and I miss that and I wish it
01:22:12 ◼ ► Was there and I think that that was an error in early Swift to to not have more explicit namespacing
01:22:23 ◼ ► Combine has a print method that is designed to be used as a debugging tool within the context of
01:22:38 ◼ ► Sometimes I'll try to do a you know, a generic Swift print and it'll be like no you're not giving you're not giving it the right
01:22:49 ◼ ► Oh, right Swift dot print is what I want in this particular context and it is very frustrating. So I totally hear you
01:22:58 ◼ ► I spent most of my time in languages that have global namespaces and I can tell you that's terrible as well
01:23:04 ◼ ► Java tried to do the right thing to fix that by saying we're gonna solve this problem and not have any of these ugly naming
01:23:10 ◼ ► Conflicts, but the price for doing that is Java class names and I don't think anyone wants that
01:23:15 ◼ ► You know like piggybacking on another system to disambiguate calm dot whatever dot, you know, it's just it's gross, right?
01:23:36 ◼ ► but either way like I want to not like that my whole point with naming is I want to just do the right thing and
01:23:42 ◼ ► Then never have to worry about it and that's no longer the case now. I have to be careful
01:23:58 ◼ ► They're gonna go back to Marcos thing and prefixing everything because I find that more offensive but it does make does give me a little
01:24:12 ◼ ► Great example of this is if you were to use a or to create a widget for an app and use the default names
01:24:20 ◼ ► If I'm not mistaken and Steve Charlton Smith tweeted about this a while ago and then just retweeted himself. So hi Steve
01:24:32 ◼ ► With some of the Apple stuff and it's in the error message is completely inscrutable as to what's going wrong
01:24:41 ◼ ► I just renamed it to like Casey widget or something like that and then suddenly everything started working and I was deeply frustrated
01:24:53 ◼ ► I see some really some someone really scratching their head whether it's at work on the internet of like I cannot figure out why this
01:25:06 ◼ ► You're like you need in one class a one class B and let me tell you about the B name space in pearl
01:25:11 ◼ ► I know this is gonna sound weird but like that's just they're excited to learn the solution, but then they're so angry
01:25:20 ◼ ► Yeah, oh my goodness. All right. So so you do like some things you don't like some other things
01:25:34 ◼ ► But other than that are there specific things that you feel like man, I really miss Objective C's ridiculously awful block syntax
01:26:07 ◼ ► Behavior in ways that couldn't be easily looked into or noticed when reading it. Whereas Swift does not have that
01:26:36 ◼ ► it still doesn't build very quickly and I still occasionally get really weird behaviors that are solved by restarting Xcode and
01:26:49 ◼ ► My favorite error is the one where it says like this and this is more common in Swift UI
01:26:58 ◼ ► But my favorite one is the one where it says like this can't be evaluated in a reasonable time
01:27:08 ◼ ► Yeah, yeah, I'm not gonna say it's non-deterministic, but sometimes it goes off the rails
01:27:17 ◼ ► Yeah, the type is supposed to be I'm gonna object slightly to your hidden functionality objective C supports pound-defined talk about hiding functionality
01:27:27 ◼ ► You're like what languages is written in the answer is macros is that it's written in pound-defined macros everywhere
01:27:42 ◼ ► But don't do that pound-defined is the ultimate feature that can be abused to make your code and completely incomprehensible in doing hidden things
01:27:49 ◼ ► You don't do that because you're a good objective C programmer. I think the same applies to Swift
01:28:10 ◼ ► Public list of like here's how I expect this thing to be called publicly and here it is in ten lines
01:28:15 ◼ ► I feel like as an IDE issue, don't you? Well, maybe but yeah, I mean as opposed to you know in Swift
01:28:30 ◼ ► Like it would be better if you could like collapse at all and like they could even give a header view that if you can
01:28:35 ◼ ► And say which one is the public API then give give a little view in the navigation that says oh
01:28:40 ◼ ► this is the equivalent of the header and it just those function signatures of the public ones like I
01:28:44 ◼ ► Think that is a surmountable thing because the information is all there and I like the fact that it's all in the file
01:28:49 ◼ ► I like the fact that I don't have to make header files and if you want that view of things
01:29:01 ◼ ► Well, I'll just come up with a naming convention myself and I'll put leading underscores and all the internal ones or some crap like that
01:29:10 ◼ ► Essentially a header view without you having to type one and that's something that would be a nice addition
01:29:15 ◼ ► There is something that's similar to this in Xcode and I've seen it like once it's buried
01:29:21 ◼ ► It's so far down. It might as well be in China and I cannot remember where it is, but there's a way to do
01:29:27 ◼ ► Something like this you can get Xcode to extract something that vaguely looks like a header file
01:29:40 ◼ ► I mean like it could be in your sidebar and you click right it's a non editable thing like in the same type of experience
01:29:50 ◼ ► Days, but you could switch back and forth from the dot M to the dot H, you know. Oh, yeah
01:29:55 ◼ ► Then there's the mini map that is the next code now, which I actually really like. I always turn that off. Oh, I like it, but
01:30:07 ◼ ► Maybe we'll have follow up next week while you wait. I will try to fend off some feedback
01:30:11 ◼ ► And yes, I know it's the C preprocessor that I was referencing and not pound-defined, but I hope everyone is on the same page
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01:31:33 ◼ ► Alex Guthman writes, I know this has been slightly covered in previous ask ATP's in episode 268 and 381
01:31:46 ◼ ► If so, which ones to use why Google open DNS cloudflare etc for security or reliability or both?
01:31:52 ◼ ► Well changing the DNS servers on my router improved network reliability or speed or privacy, even though it's not a VPN
01:31:56 ◼ ► So for me, I tried this like many years ago when this was very very cool to use like Google or some other
01:32:07 ◼ ► Maybe was open DNS and I tried it for a while and the experience I had again many years ago now
01:32:13 ◼ ► was that anything that involves streaming like Netflix or YouTube or something like that was all slower than dirt because
01:32:23 ◼ ► It was apparently through the magic of DNS that they would target me to a server physically near my house
01:32:29 ◼ ► And when I was using a DNS based out of like, California everything slowed down to a crawl
01:32:34 ◼ ► And so I stopped doing this within the span of like a couple of weeks that very well may not be the case
01:32:48 ◼ ► Piehole on my local network, which is the most delightful and terrible name in the world. That's PI
01:33:05 ◼ ► Advertisements in some malware and things of that nature and so I have my Raspberry Pi running piehole
01:33:13 ◼ ► But when it doesn't know the answer to something it will just go to my ISP to files as DNS server Marco
01:33:36 ◼ ► Too have had occasional issues with them and it's never been worth dealing with those issues for the benefit
01:33:43 ◼ ► They provided and so I would I would always switch back after a few weeks or a few days or whatever just back to my ISPs
01:33:49 ◼ ► It's just this this solves problems. I don't have or it introduces problems. I'm not willing to tolerate
01:34:07 ◼ ► The reason I became interested in alternate DNS providers is that my DNS provider through my ISP was garbage
01:34:16 ◼ ► Saying of people who have ever debugged weird problems on the server side. It's always DNS
01:34:28 ◼ ► I can't understand if you don't know enough network debugging to immediately check whether your thing is hanging trying to resolve a name
01:34:45 ◼ ► It's up but it's giving the world's lowest responses. It's incredibly frustrating. So that's why I started looking into them
01:34:55 ◼ ► You to tell whether that's happening to you because unless you're literally debugging your own server-side code where you control where you know
01:35:05 ◼ ► You probably don't know the internal guts of some set-top box or some app that you're using is hanging on DNS
01:35:18 ◼ ► Especially in the US you too also happen to have a crappy ISP DNS server that you're using and it's causing your browsing experience
01:35:25 ◼ ► So I think for the average person if you're nerdy and you want to try this it is worth looking into Cloudflare Google
01:35:31 ◼ ► Open DNS. In fact, I think there's an app at least for the Mac anywhere that does like DNS benchmarking
01:35:36 ◼ ► They will try a bunch of DNS servers and tell you which one is the fastest responding from your location
01:35:43 ◼ ► But at least it can tell you like how fast you get the responses back honestly speed isn't an issue unless you have a garbage
01:35:49 ◼ ► ISP that's waiting, you know seconds to give you your names back which can really hurt things
01:35:56 ◼ ► And I benchmarked a bunch of them and it turned out the one that was the fastest was one
01:36:03 ◼ ► And when I saw this question, I I left it in here and I intentionally didn't look this up because honestly, I don't know
01:36:11 ◼ ► Which of my computers and devices are using which DNS server? I'm pretty sure some of them are still using Google DNS
01:36:18 ◼ ► But I'm sure I'm also sure that some of them are just using my ISP one because I never configured them, right?
01:36:23 ◼ ► I didn't change my DNS at the router level or anything a lot of times your your your router is your DNS server
01:36:30 ◼ ► You can just specify, you know, ten dot zero dot one dot one or whatever like your main router
01:36:37 ◼ ► But I'm pretty sure some stuff in my house is using Google DNS and the fact that I don't know
01:36:42 ◼ ► Tells me that I don't have any problem with it because I stream things from everywhere. Everything's fine
01:36:48 ◼ ► They get fast internet speeds. I get fast uploads fast downloads, and I honestly don't know which one I'm using
01:37:06 ◼ ► For for listeners, I'd say it's worth checking out. But what Casey said about potential of GYP stuff?
01:37:14 ◼ ► I know Google does a bunch of stuff to counteract that where even though you're doing eight dot eight dot eight dot eight
01:37:18 ◼ ► It's not the same for eights that other people are using like it's it's GYP balanced from your lookups
01:37:24 ◼ ► it's you know, they try to be clever about that and things like open DNS and cloudflare for some of our systems to
01:37:38 ◼ ► But it's I think I feel like it's less important now than it used to be and if your ISP DNS is working fine
01:37:46 ◼ ► Nathan Roberts writes there are people in the Mac community who dislike electron apps and modern web frameworks
01:37:50 ◼ ► I also dislike when resources are wasted for computing tasks that could be done in a more efficient way
01:37:54 ◼ ► But the history of computing is full of evolution the difference between quote unquote native versus quote unquote web
01:38:04 ◼ ► Is there a problem with this tech that I don't understand is this an old man yells at cloud situation?
01:38:17 ◼ ► Incredibly good example of something that is written in electron that doesn't seem to be it seems it's very much
01:38:27 ◼ ► but it doesn't feel like a slow piece of garbage and and so to back up a half-step electron is a
01:39:12 ◼ ► Slack for all my complaining about it does mostly get the job done and mostly does a pretty decent job of it
01:39:19 ◼ ► But unlike Visual Studio code where I don't really ever tell I can't even ever tell that I'm using a weird
01:39:27 ◼ ► Mechanism to run this app. It always just feels like something is not right in slack. And that's what's so frustrating about it
01:39:38 ◼ ► I think you hit on the two the two main complaints and it's not just one about like electron one
01:39:43 ◼ ► One is the speed thing like in general web-based technologies have always liked behind native in terms of speed and responsiveness
01:39:49 ◼ ► But you know computers are getting faster and that is only going to fade with time as Nathan points out, right?
01:39:54 ◼ ► Did you know technology marches on and what some people might say is incredibly inefficient or whatever eventually just becomes trivial and a non-issue
01:40:01 ◼ ► But the second thing is not going to go away based on performance and that is the nativeness
01:40:15 ◼ ► the operating systems incarnation of a button a scroll bar a text field or rich text editing field like
01:40:30 ◼ ► There are native UI toolkits and native UI controls for menu bars buttons checkboxes scroll bars scrolling view text
01:40:44 ◼ ► Our own interface elements out of web stuff out of HTML and CSS and JavaScript and you could try to make them
01:40:57 ◼ ► So there's the uncanny valley thing or you can do what Visual Studio code and other apps do is say well
01:41:07 ◼ ► But no one will ever be fooled into thinking it's from it is an OS native and that can work
01:41:13 ◼ ► Except part of the promise of the GUI from the original Mac is if you learn one set of controls and behaviors
01:41:23 ◼ ► So every time I'm in a text field I can use these keyboard shortcuts and I can do these things and it behaves in this
01:41:30 ◼ ► respects my OS preferences for scrolling and clicking to jump the scroll wheel versus just going to move it and all my you know
01:41:44 ◼ ► That don't use native controls and each one of them has their own idea of what they want to do
01:41:48 ◼ ► Oh, they're gonna try to imitate the OS thing, but they failed to implement this feature
01:41:59 ◼ ► But the non-native thing will only fall by the wayside if we ever get to a point where there are more
01:42:08 ◼ ► I don't think that we're there yet and even if we were there the non-native apps are not going to all get in a big
01:42:14 ◼ ► You know, you know conference call with each other and decide how they want their widgets to behave
01:42:27 ◼ ► Wouldn't want to live in that world. I understand that the web is kind of like that now
01:42:32 ◼ ► It's part of what makes websites frustrating that there's so much variance between them
01:42:53 ◼ ► I actually don't have a huge amount of complaining to do about UI consistency with these apps because
01:43:29 ◼ ► And it's like whether they're rendering custom stuff with a web view or with custom, you know quartz drawing commands
01:43:35 ◼ ► If it's a bunch of custom stuff, it's still gonna you know behave in a custom way. So I don't actually
01:43:46 ◼ ► I can give you a specific specific example from slack though, by the way with the native thing
01:43:50 ◼ ► one of the things that frustrates me about slack which I use every day a lot is the interface for
01:43:56 ◼ ► Editing a message right like the little like the hover pop-up thing lets you get the little thing
01:44:01 ◼ ► There's like more actions and you can click edit and you can or you can like add a reaction or whatever
01:44:14 ◼ ► So like twitchy that I can never quite get the message that I want and if it was a native Mac app
01:44:24 ◼ ► the developer would spend a lot of time sweating over how that interface feels and they would have per pixel control and
01:44:34 ◼ ► Do the mouse in and out handling and do all sorts of the things that the very best Mac native Mac apps do
01:44:40 ◼ ► Whereas with web technologies, they're just gonna be like, yeah, we've got the the mouse in a mouse out event
01:44:44 ◼ ► Or you know the hover event in our web thing and that's that's sufficient and it makes for a UI that's usable
01:44:53 ◼ ► So I get what you're saying about like the app would more or less probably look the same and I think slack is a very good
01:45:01 ◼ ► one of the things I tested was I went into the text field and then I hit ctrl a use Emacs key bindings to jump around
01:45:09 ◼ ► Apple does a good job of making their web controls like, you know, the the WebKit controls
01:45:13 ◼ ► Support native Mac toolkit type things. So it's not bad. In fact, I really like the slack app, but I don't have trouble
01:45:29 ◼ ► Differently in ways that I feel like could be superior just due to the extra control have and again
01:45:39 ◼ ► There's no there's no like native control for that and you surely wouldn't want a button next to everything
01:45:53 ◼ ► Care and craftsperson ship as opposed to like, you know, the the framework they're using to do it
01:45:59 ◼ ► I mean, you know, I look at something like things is my preferred to do app on the Mac on all platforms and
01:46:17 ◼ ► But they wrote it in app kit like it is using the native API's is not it's not a web app at all
01:46:25 ◼ ► I've tried them that were web apps in you know, or you know that that were web technology based even in their their Mac quote apps
01:46:41 ◼ ► It was impossible to make a good Mac UI using web technologies. It was that they just didn't
01:46:48 ◼ ► You could somebody could do it. It is possible and a good Mac UI as things demonstrates doesn't have to be
01:46:56 ◼ ► Exactly, like, you know vanilla aqua controls it can be done in a good way and I think slack gets very close
01:47:10 ◼ ► It does take a comically long amount of time to launch it. It is comically wasteful of resources
01:47:16 ◼ ► They've had to do a ton of work over time to make it slightly less egregious at how much memory and stuff that it burns
01:47:25 ◼ ► think that's that's like the big problem with them is like it's a very electron and and you know using web technologies to do you eyes
01:47:53 ◼ ► That if that becomes a heavy thing that you know in in the system, it's not that big of a deal Xcode is damn heavy
01:48:00 ◼ ► I mean, it's you know, ID either are all heavy things. So that's that's what I would categorize
01:48:04 ◼ ► Visual Studio code is it's more of an ID and less of just a text editor and in that respect
01:48:09 ◼ ► Like I would not want Xcode to be written with web technologies. Oh, no, I feel like like I
01:48:21 ◼ ► Written the way it's written, but I'm also really really good at the Xcode isn't written like that
01:48:26 ◼ ► yeah, and and I'm really really glad that most of my apps that I use are not written like this because
01:48:32 ◼ ► Imagine, you know right now. I I have two such apps open. I have Skype and slack open and
01:48:40 ◼ ► Like I look at my doc and I have like ten other apps open all of which are native except for those two as far as
01:48:57 ◼ ► Like it's one of those things were like if you have one or two of these it's no big deal
01:49:01 ◼ ► But it becomes much heavier it because because they're so heavy it becomes much more burdensome to have
01:49:14 ◼ ► if what you want to do with your app can be easily done with the native frameworks, but
01:49:20 ◼ ► When you look at something like slack and you look at like what they actually need on slack is a
01:49:28 ◼ ► That is often rendering web content. That is often rendering HTML like for just things like what's you know?
01:49:35 ◼ ► It's it's a giant rich text view that has a lot of embedded images and stuff like that like that
01:49:54 ◼ ► Anyway, like it would be you wouldn't be saving a massive amount of resources by doing it that way
01:50:00 ◼ ► That you would just introduce, you know complexity at the engineering side and slack is this like very complex rich service
01:50:10 ◼ ► has to run on every platform and it has to have feature parity constantly on every platform and
01:50:23 ◼ ► but that's why they do it and it makes a lot of sense, but if that's not your if that's if it's not your business needs if
01:50:31 ◼ ► You can get away with using native stuff and it's not that big of a deal to your business
01:50:40 ◼ ► I think is electron for good reasons and it doesn't bother me that much with the exception of
01:50:47 ◼ ► Quite how incredibly resource-intensive it is. I should think about getting a Mac with more than 16 gigs of RAM
01:50:57 ◼ ► Matt Steiner writes recent Apple car rumors seem to suggest they're working toward an autonomous EV to sell to customers
01:51:03 ◼ ► What do you guys think of the idea of Apple designing an autonomous EV to be used in their own ride-sharing service akin to uber?
01:51:08 ◼ ► Apple controls the hardware and software and can focus on the experience ultra high-end interior ecosystem integration advanced technologies
01:51:15 ◼ ► Without needing to worry about pricing margins dealerships or charging networks somewhere to Waymo
01:51:19 ◼ ► They can focus on their self-driving tech on well-mapped geographies cities ideal for ride-sharing to create a polished system
01:51:29 ◼ ► May this doesn't really do anything for me personally. Like I just I don't see this as a
01:51:46 ◼ ► I just get the feeling that this is not what Apple's interested in that. It's not they don't want to be uber
01:51:56 ◼ ► Employees between their different buildings in Cupertino, but even then I don't think they're that interested
01:52:07 ◼ ► Apple rumors where you and where you just you start with the premise that Apple is able to do something that no one else thus
01:52:16 ◼ ► Oh, what if Apple could just do this thing that apparently nobody in the world can do yet?
01:52:19 ◼ ► But like what if Apple could do it because they're super smart then do you think Apple would do that?
01:52:29 ◼ ► Making come fully autonomous cars and selling them and saying wouldn't that be great service because you know how to worry about dealers because Apple
01:52:41 ◼ ► Assuming Apple Apple will be able to do that where everyone else has failed after decades of trying and they just I mean eventually maybe
01:52:57 ◼ ► Full autonomy for this type of application now in terms of whether if we start from that premise though and say, okay
01:53:04 ◼ ► Well, so it's something that everybody can do right would Apple want to be in that business?
01:53:11 ◼ ► What if Apple was the only one that could do this then wouldn't they want to be in that business?
01:53:15 ◼ ► There's very little that that in the Apple will be able to do that people can't copy, right?
01:53:20 ◼ ► So I said what if Apple is the only one with a smartphone with a touchscreen for a tiny little while?
01:53:34 ◼ ► We're the first ones to figure out how to do this because that won't be true for very long
01:53:45 ◼ ► Then is it a business that Apple wants to be in and you got to ask the Tim Cook question
01:53:49 ◼ ► Is this a place where Apple feels like they can make a big impact yada yada, and I would hope
01:53:52 ◼ ► From the perspective from the high-level perspective what Apple would say to itself is not
01:53:59 ◼ ► Not like, you know, is there some buck to be made while we're the first people to do this, but is basically is this type of
01:54:26 ◼ ► You could reuse existing infrastructure with fewer cars on the street in a more efficient manner
01:54:43 ◼ ► Which carries people, you know far larger number of people more efficiently with less space stuff like that
01:54:48 ◼ ► And I would hope that any Apple thinking about a future product is thinking big picture is the answer more cars
01:54:54 ◼ ► Now I know apples remember to be making a car and I hope they're also asking that question and the reality is cars are
01:55:03 ◼ ► so you can't stick your head in the sand and say I'm just gonna ignore cars entirely but
01:55:07 ◼ ► For something like this where you have oh we have autonomy and we have this amazing advanced technology
01:55:12 ◼ ► I would hope that we would think a little bit bigger than let's just do cars but slightly different because
01:55:23 ◼ ► Other than simply trying to use our existing road infrastructure slightly more efficiently
01:55:40 ◼ ► Apple is working on some kind of car or car related thing car related thing as in maybe they're just doing the software
01:55:47 ◼ ► Maybe they're partnering with Hyundai that you know, there's so many rumors. We don't know. Yeah, but like it's Apple
01:56:05 ◼ ► like they're not gonna make some kind of big sales deal with some other person who's gonna share the
01:56:13 ◼ ► Customer relationship and a customer experience like they're gonna do their own the whole thing themselves
01:56:17 ◼ ► You're thinking you're thinking Motorola rocker though, and I'm thinking I'm thinking Foxconn
01:56:31 ◼ ► Uber or whoever to operate and you don't you don't actually buy them you just get into this car does on my Apple like I
01:56:37 ◼ ► Know not not not not for uber to operate the idea in this question is that Apple would run that service
01:56:48 ◼ ► At that point Apple is just like a giant car leasing company and car maintenance company. I mean, they're a taxi service
01:57:09 ◼ ► Like I yeah, this doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. I can tell obviously they're putting a lot of resources into this project
01:57:21 ◼ ► Some kind of major car project going and have for some time, but I still just do not see
01:57:39 ◼ ► Don't want an Apple car. I'm not excited about that. I don't think they should be doing any of this
01:57:59 ◼ ► Apple can bring something to the table here why they would be even be good at it. I don't see any of that
01:58:07 ◼ ► It says like you know, like part of this question is like Apple can control the hardware and software
01:58:11 ◼ ► You can focus on the experience ultra high-end interior ecosystem integration advanced technology. What does that mean?
01:58:25 ◼ ► But you know what like when they when they launched the Apple watch they had never made an ultra high-end
01:58:34 ◼ ► I wouldn't make maybe not ultra high-end, but they may make a you know, very good watch bands and and you know
01:58:48 ◼ ► You know you mentioned earlier like the Tim Cook thing of like trying to make a you know
01:58:53 ◼ ► Make a real difference and until only tackle the things that they can make a real difference in
01:58:57 ◼ ► It's like they decided not to do Wi-Fi routers like they like why there's so many things that they could do
01:59:15 ◼ ► Not let alone even a regular even if you ignore all the magic self-driving stuff that seemingly doesn't exist that it might never exist
01:59:46 ◼ ► Apple is not known for having a ton of extra engineering and design resources and the ability to multitask incredibly
02:00:23 ◼ ► I don't see why Apple wants to be a car company or why they should become a car company
02:00:28 ◼ ► No matter what the car even if it's fully autonomous cars or or manually driven cars no matter what kind of car it is
02:00:42 ◼ ► But they're really they're really concerning concerning slash interesting thing about this is there
02:01:06 ◼ ► We don't know how many other internal restarts there have been but there's been one public restart that we more or less know
02:01:10 ◼ ► So like I mean sure that's the thing in any big company, especially Apple, you know, you try lots of stuff
02:01:15 ◼ ► Sometimes it doesn't work out. But when the car thing didn't work out, they didn't say oh, well, we tried that
02:01:24 ◼ ► They're doing here and you mentioned Wi-Fi routers if and when air tags ever actually come out after however many years being rumored
02:01:38 ◼ ► But you can't make a difference in the in the Wi-Fi router business to your point about like so many areas in their current
02:01:50 ◼ ► Like really or is there so little for you to do that you thought uh-huh. Why don't we do these little tile competitor things?
02:01:58 ◼ ► I think they're cool and everything but like but not Wi-Fi routers, right but also cars
02:02:11 ◼ ► But the car thing I feel like eventually it's either got to just be dead for good or they need to ship something
02:02:17 ◼ ► The AR VR glasses is another example. I think that's definitely an area that Apple should be looking in
02:02:21 ◼ ► And I like the idea that they've been working on it for a long time and haven't shipped anything yet because it shows they're not
02:02:26 ◼ ► Just shipping the first random thing they have because we know they've had all sorts of stuff internally
02:02:30 ◼ ► That other companies probably would have shipped because it probably is cool and does a bunch of cool stuff
02:02:42 ◼ ► That Apple is able to answer at least some of the questions that Marco just posed because if they can't it's not going to be
02:02:53 ◼ ► Thank you to our members as well who support us directly you can join at ATP that FM slash join. Thanks everybody
02:04:39 ◼ ► I should have looked back at this conversation preparation for today, but if you want to get something Audi like
02:05:09 ◼ ► Mean setting aside the fact that the corporate ownership structure that we have today didn't always exist. And so it wasn't quite as absurd a question
02:05:17 ◼ ► I this whole I think you just basically described market segmentation the whole idea of car
02:05:24 ◼ ► Regular car brands eventually having a luxury brand companion was big in the 90s and is a proven business model
02:05:32 ◼ ► You take your Toyota's and you make them a little bit fancier and you saw him for a no more money and you get a Lexus
02:05:40 ◼ ► Take a Honda and you make it a little bit fancier and you get an Acura which is usually a worse car
02:05:45 ◼ ► You should just buy Honda's but like this. Yeah, I'm saying it's it's a proven business model
02:05:52 ◼ ► The Volkswagen is the regular people brand you take a Volkswagen you make it fancier and you get an Audi and yes
02:05:58 ◼ ► Obviously you're paying more and the margins are higher and you're not getting quote unquote your money's worth if you look at it in terms
02:06:03 ◼ ► Of features and experience or whatever, but that's the that's market segmentation and luxury goods
02:06:10 ◼ ► But I don't think there are many people who would say that a really good Audi is not a nicer car than a really good
02:06:16 ◼ ► Volkswagen even if they're literally made on the same platform, so I think it makes just as much sense as you know
02:06:23 ◼ ► Well, I keep citing infinity. I feel bad for them because I think their cars are crappy but
02:06:28 ◼ ► I guess Lexus is the best one because Toyota is a very popular brand sells a lot of cars and
02:06:35 ◼ ► They're just fancy totalist, but guess what's a fancy Toyota is a good car and for people who like Toyota's
02:06:40 ◼ ► But wish they were fancier Lexus is right there for them and there's bigger margins on it
02:06:44 ◼ ► So the point of Audi is the same as the point of Lexus and infinity. Okay, I guess I phrased the question poorly
02:06:52 ◼ ► Rather than I mean other than like completely emotional reasons like I just want to look fancy
02:07:03 ◼ ► Volkswagen one of those and there's you can get higher performance cars with fancier interiors with more luxury features for way more money
02:07:14 ◼ ► So Audi is is like, you know a good choice if you want something fancier from that car family
02:07:26 ◼ ► Which is substantially more expensive and has much much more sporting and less luxurious, right?
02:07:45 ◼ ► If you're not getting the performance version of an Audi the ride is gonna be much more comfortable than it is than any Porsche
02:07:51 ◼ ► Yeah, I I can't argue with you, but I'm not so sure that that you should be as confident as you are
02:08:01 ◼ ► Then you should find all luxury car brands pointless because what's true about is true of all of them
02:08:05 ◼ ► I mean maybe the complaint is that is the Audi's that are too they're too much like the
02:08:09 ◼ ► Volkswagens like if you squint you can see the Volkswagen lurking under the covers, but I don't I don't really buy that
02:08:19 ◼ ► Find some of them appealing and some of them not to my taste, but I never questioned why the brand exists
02:08:25 ◼ ► Guess unlike BMW which doesn't really have a cheap brand like I guess kind of sort of mini
02:08:31 ◼ ► If they made that hatchback, you know, he is not cheap. I mean the mini is not cheap. You're exactly right
02:08:37 ◼ ► And yes, the 318 TI I believe it was which our valedictorian drove and it seemed like a piece of garbage
02:08:54 ◼ ► Whereas if if I were to look at an Audi in almost all circumstances, I would almost surely get the equivalent Volkswagen
02:09:04 ◼ ► But in almost all cases there are and and that's what I would certainly get because it just seems to me like
02:09:10 ◼ ► Why would one choose an Audi for non emotional reasons? Why would one choose an Audi over the equivalent Volkswagen or
02:09:20 ◼ ► It's just geographic competitors. Like, you know, Lexus would say that they're a competitor to Audi
02:09:25 ◼ ► Acura would say that they're a competitor infinity would say just excluding those luxury brands like other, you know
02:09:33 ◼ ► Cadillac would say they're a competitor to Audi and I get I feel like they're just the fact that you know
02:09:38 ◼ ► I think it's an accident history that BMW and Mercedes just grew into these luxury brands and warrants spawned from sort of
02:09:43 ◼ ► Non luxury brands, right? You know, I don't think Mercedes started out as the luxury brand
02:09:49 ◼ ► They are today, but they didn't get spun out of something and the companies that did spin out of being like, you know
02:10:01 ◼ ► When you come out of a brand that is trying to sell to the mass market you eventually realize the business people say, you know
02:10:06 ◼ ► We can make a little bit more money if we made a fancier version of this car and gave it a different name and so you
02:10:37 ◼ ► As as real direct equivalents because I feel like they're more reliable to do reliable to compete with the German brands. Yes
02:10:45 ◼ ► Yes that and yes, and I feel like they have a very different personality having driven several Japanese cars and admittedly
02:10:54 ◼ ► Not luxury cars, but I've owned a couple of Japanese cars in years past and I've owned a couple German cars now
02:11:07 ◼ ► But there's a very different attitude to your average Japanese car versus your average German or perhaps even European car because I feel like Aaron's
02:11:30 ◼ ► I mean, there's been a lot of homogenization. I feel like in the luxury car segment like when Lexus first came out
02:11:42 ◼ ► I I can tell who you're competing with and yet despite so clearly targeting Mercedes the original LS 400 could not help but feel
02:11:54 ◼ ► It's just you're right you totally right that it's in the culture in the same way that a Cadillac
02:11:57 ◼ ► Despite trying to compete with BMW. There is no question that you're in a Cadillac when you get into one of those things
02:12:04 ◼ ► So the homogenization has been I feel like in the feature set and maybe even the in sort of internal amenities and aesthetics
02:12:19 ◼ ► Not setting even aside obviously the styling is still radically different from the German brands the American brands the Japanese brands the Swedish brands
02:12:30 ◼ ► But I wouldn't say that eliminates them as competitors from each other like they're going to they're gonna be different
02:12:41 ◼ ► Volkswagen Audi and Porsche occupy different spaces in my mind and maybe I'm the only one
02:12:49 ◼ ► European versus Japanese versus American luxury brands. I mean nobody's even said Lincoln yet
02:12:59 ◼ ► I was trying to make earlier very very different attitudes and feelings and kind of spirit about them
02:13:08 ◼ ► I view them as only competing within their little circle like I personally I don't think I would cross shop a BMW in a Cadillac
02:13:18 ◼ ► Whereas I would absolutely cross shop a BMW and Mercedes for example and I would cross shop a Cadillac and a Lincoln and I would
02:13:26 ◼ ► Certainly cross shop in Acura and I would I actually probably cross shop the infinity and and a Lexus
02:13:34 ◼ ► Particularly with respect to Volkswagen Auto Group, there's a lot of there's a lot of overlap and I
02:13:50 ◼ ► I want an Audi now with there are a couple of exceptions and one you pointed out earlier is
02:13:54 ◼ ► There are cars that Audi makes a Volkswagen does not and I don't have anywhere near enough money to afford an RS6
02:14:04 ◼ ► I would bring an RS6 to my desert island because oh my gosh that thing looks so awesome
02:14:13 ◼ ► Really fast wagon is whatever the current Mercedes wagon is that is certainly the better choice
02:14:22 ◼ ► The Audi fast wagons are actually pretty good. Someone posted a link to in the chat room