00:00:18 ◼ ► No, none of the above actually. An indirect hit. No, actually I was not trying to get back. In fact, if anything, I need to go on Gruber's show not to yell at him and remind him what my name is, but actually to yell at him.
00:00:44 ◼ ► There's a big dividing line here between people who can tolerate just like just give me sugar squished into shapes and people who understand that all forms of chocolate are superior to that.
00:00:57 ◼ ► I don't know if I'd say that. I mean, I was thinking about it. I'm like, well, do you mean like even like the plain Hershey bars? It tastes like wax. And when I think about it, I'm like, yeah, probably like when I was a kid, when you know, you go through the Halloween candy and it's you start dwindling.
00:01:11 ◼ ► You know, it's kind of notice like towards the end of the Halloween candy. Let's look what's left. You know, that that really shows you what you actually care about. And I think what would be left would be sweet tarts and the stupid, disgusting, waxy Hershey bar would be gone.
00:01:22 ◼ ► Not that I enjoy the Hershey bar, but when you're down to that desperation, like, oh, what's left? And you're looking easy sweet tarts. You see that terrible chocolate bar like, I guess I like the chocolate bar.
00:01:36 ◼ ► I feel like this is an un, this is your, this perfectly perfectly fits with your, let's say, I was going to say unrefined. I'm trying to think of more chatter or more than I'm refined. But I say your unrefined palette. How about you just give me sugar and painted a color? I'll eat it.
00:01:54 ◼ ► I know what you're doing. I understand. I mean, you're right. It's, there's a hierarchy, but it's still, as we discussed in Slack today, it's, it's a hierarchy starting from the bottom with pixie sticks, which is like, let's not disguise this at all. And then working your way up to fun dip. And then you've got Smarties, sweet tarts and you know, all that.
00:02:19 ◼ ► I mean, when I was eating fun dip at all, I think we'd all take a bite of the stick towards the end when you decide you're done with the thing. But like, like I said in the Slack fund, it was kind of a project at least.
00:02:53 ◼ ► That's yikes. It is kind of amazing how long they lasted. And like now they still make things that look just like them. They just like rebranded them as some other like candy sticks or something. But it's, it's, it's definitely candy cigarettes.
00:03:23 ◼ ► And on the picture on the cover, it's cause we didn't know about chewing tobacco. If you live somewhere where more adults chew tobacco, I suppose you would maybe be familiar with seeing the, the cartoonish adult on the cover with a big lump in their cheek.
00:03:34 ◼ ► Well, in all fairness, like, you know, I, people think Ohio is like that when I, when people hear him from Ohio and much of Ohio was, but it started about one mile away from where I lived.
00:04:00 ◼ ► Yeah. There's lots of surface area. So you're going to really deplete the, uh, the whatever chemical they put on it that tastes good for two seconds. And then all you've got left is just a ball of tasteless gum.
00:04:39 ◼ ► I'm a mess tonight. You posted a bunch of tweets and they were the graphic representations of kind of the, the, um, theorizing that you were doing on the show last week about what would a very large M one look like or perhaps a series of M ones all kind of squished together.
00:04:59 ◼ ► Yeah, I accepted my own challenge. Uh, last week when we were talking about those rumors and saying like, okay, well, you know, assuming it's on the same process size, here are the rumors. Here's how many cores of the different kinds of the things have.
00:05:09 ◼ ► I was like, just multiply that out. Just, you know, we know what an M one looks like. And again, with the caveat that I put 20 times on Twitter to try to defend against people yelling at me about this.
00:05:19 ◼ ► Yes, we understand that Apple's marketing diagrams of its chips bear very little relation to the actual layout of the chip, right? But it's what we have to go on. And ballpark wise, the area of an M one as represented by this thing is a reasonable approximation.
00:05:35 ◼ ► If you just say, well, what, however big an M one is this square equals an M one and you know how much stuff an M one has in it, so you can get kind of a back of the envelope thing of how big this is going to be. And I talked about it on the show last week, but shortly after the show, I said, you know what? I have the graphic of the M one from the shirts that we just sold.
00:05:51 ◼ ► I should do what I said and just multiply that out and see what it looks like. So first thing I did was I just made a big chip that is like the highest end to Mac Pro when they were saying so.
00:06:01 ◼ ► You know, the M one has four high performance cores, four high efficiency cores and an eight core GPU. And the big honking Mac Pro rumor one is 32 high performance cores, eight high efficiency cores and 128 core GPU.
00:06:13 ◼ ► So I made that and I call it M one XL, which is not a real name. It's just a joke. Like, look, it's extra large. Just to see how much bigger it would be in area. Again, ballpark because it's not as if it's a straight multiplication of the things because there's other ancillary stuff that ties all this together and it's more complexity that we get into just to see the size difference.
00:06:29 ◼ ► So the size difference, as you would imagine, is massive. We'll put a link to the tweet. You can take a look at it. It's way, way, way, way bigger. Right. And then shortly after that, I said, OK, yeah, but they're not actually going to make a chip that looks like that because, you know, it's not only is it huge, but it is if you look at the little diagram.
00:06:44 ◼ ► It really, you know, this if they made a chip that was like this, it would only be used in that high end Mac Pro. And it's not like they're going to make one for the high end Mac Pro, one for the lower level Mac Pro, one for the MacBook Pro. Like they don't want to make custom chips for every single one of these things, as evidenced by the fact that, you know, even though we don't know what they're going to do in the high end, we do know that on the low end, they literally use the same chip in like tons of computers. Right.
00:07:06 ◼ ► So if you're expecting them to make a totally different custom chip for each one of its high end computers, that's not going to happen. Right. And anyway, what the rumor said and what Marco was trying to get me to understand last show, but I wasn't quite getting, was that's not what they're going to do.
00:07:21 ◼ ► They're going to make these these chips with these code names. It didn't make any sense to me. And I had some info from folks after the show telling me what the whole chop versus die thing meant. Apparently, chop is a term of art in the Silicon world where you it's not what Marco was surmising as like binning, where you take a, you know, a thing that has 32 GPU cores and you just disable 16 of them or whatever a chop is.
00:07:45 ◼ ► And this is my understanding from a small amount of feedback I got. It's when you take a design that you have for a chip and you say, well, we want to make a chip that's like that, but with less stuff. But we don't want to design a whole new chip.
00:07:57 ◼ ► So is there a way we can essentially take like the blueprint for that chip and just chop part of it off and, you know, sort of tie up the loose ends right as a cheaper way to get a smaller chip without having to design an entirely new chip.
00:08:09 ◼ ► So the weird names that I couldn't make sense of last show were Jade C die and Jade C chop Jade C die was rumored to have eight high performance cores, two high efficiency cores and 32 GPU cores.
00:08:32 ◼ ► They cut it off in the blueprint and then what they print is a thing with 16 GPU cores. Right. And hopefully all of them work. Right. So it's not as if you make the bigger chip and cut off the end of it.
00:08:48 ◼ ► That's my understanding. If I'm still wrong about this, someone in the industry, please let me know. But either way, with those code names at hand, now we have what I think is a reasonable graphic representation of what that rumor was saying.
00:09:00 ◼ ► Again, we don't know if these things are true or not. Right. So here we've got the M1. We'll try to put this in the article, try to put this as chapter art. But I do have a link in the show notes to a high res ping version of this.
00:09:16 ◼ ► I know it's difficult to get all these things. But we will put a link in the show notes to the tweets and also a link to the high res version if you want to see all the stupid little lines and stuff. Right. Anyway, here is a reiteration of the rumor. Right.
00:10:04 ◼ ► And for the low end MacBook Pro, you get a chopped version of that. It's exactly Jade C die, but they take the blueprints of that. They chop off half the GPU cores and you get a little bit smaller chip. It's actually not that much bigger than an M1.
00:10:22 ◼ ► And then for the Mac Pro rumored chips, Jade 2C die is just two Jade C dies. Right. And probably a chiplet type arrangement. I don't think they would actually print these on a single die.
00:10:42 ◼ ► We talked about this many, many shows back. Like, would Apple do chiplets? Like AMD does chiplets because it's cheaper to print a bunch of smaller chips and then put them on a fabric type thing in a single package or whatever versus just making one big die.
00:10:55 ◼ ► And some of the feedback we got was like, well, AMD has to do that because they can't afford to have the fancy expensive process that Apple can have. But Apple wouldn't do that because it's worse in lots of ways.
00:11:12 ◼ ► But once you start getting up into the higher end ones, I think Apple will end up not wanting to make a new custom single die for this, but rather end up doing something like chiplets or some other way where you take multiple multiple dies and put them in the same package and connect them together.
00:11:29 ◼ ► So Jade 2C die is two Jade C dies and Jade 4C die is four Jade C dies. So that's the way Apple can get away with making just two chips, the M1 and whatever they're going to end up calling Jade C die.
00:11:57 ◼ ► Right. So Jade C die is the building block and that is the other die that Apple has designed. They've got all the little traces they're going to print out. That's the other design they do.
00:12:32 ◼ ► And that would go in the low end MacBook Pro. Right. Gotcha. Right. And the high end MacBook Pro would, you know, I don't know how they're going to divvy it up, but you've got two MacBook Pro-ish chips.
00:12:47 ◼ ► Right. And then what do you do for the Mac Pro? Well, you take multiples of those, either two of them or four of them, and you put them together in the same package or, you know, with some kind of, you know, using chiplets or something like that.
00:13:04 ◼ ► But either way, the whole idea is that rather than being like we said in the last show, like the idea that these would be like four actual chips separated by several inches on the motherboard, extremely unlikely.
00:14:10 ◼ ► There's lots of nuances of this and how Apple can save money. Like one way they're saving money is by not making custom chip for the Mac Pro by just making essentially a chip for the MacBook Pro and being able to do chiplets or something similar to stamp that out to the other higher end Macs.
00:15:10 ◼ ► They have a bunch of nice diagrams showing how you can use your expensive parts to make a bunch of CPU/GPU dies, stick them in chiplets inside a single package, stack the RAM all around it.
00:15:56 ◼ ► Which I think from our previous research into feasible die sizes that exist in the industry, it does seem like it is possible and reasonable to make the Jade 4C die as one giant die if it's for a high-end, expensive, low-volume product like the top of the line Mac Pro.
00:16:15 ◼ ► Yeah, the good thing is they're coming from Xeons which through no fault or thanks to Apple is horrendously expensive because that's how much Intel charges for them. So as long as Apple undercuts Intel's giant profit margin on these Xeons, they could conceivably excuse the incredible expense of trying to put this on a single die.
00:16:40 ◼ ► Well, that's what I'm saying, they can undercut the price of the current Mac Pro and still get huge profits, right? But it may be more, like they may not, this is a good test, how much do they care about the Mac Pro?
00:17:00 ◼ ► I mean they are called "die", Jade 2C die and Jade 4C die, so you can't tell, does that mean it's just two Jade C dies? Or does that mean it's a die called Jade 2C which is like two Jade Cs? These codenames I still don't like. But anyway, I drew them as like single blocks, again these are not realistic anything, I'm just trying to sort of show square millimeters, I guess? Relative size? And if you squint at them you can kind of see how many components are in them.
00:18:06 ◼ ► I really think if they chart, well, let's see here's the thing, I was going to say it's not going to be expensive, then I was like, well, Apple loves their margins, so maybe it will be expensive just because it can be, not because it has to be.
00:18:43 ◼ ► And it's like, okay, what if I want to upgrade again? This is not how much it costs for the CPU, this is how much more it costs because they take away the default CPU and in its place they give you the better one.
00:20:03 ◼ ► I don't think they will pass on many of the savings, but I think that, you know, I think they will be able to undercut, so the 28-core Xeon, if you just take the Mac Pro, and the only change you make to the configurator is you click on 28-core Xeon, that's $13,000.
00:22:06 ◼ ► Because Apple's costs are gonna go way down, especially if they don't have a discrete GPU, that means they don't have to buy ridiculously overpriced Xeon from Intel, and they don't have to buy a graphics card from AMD and pay their margins.
00:22:24 ◼ ► Especially if they also make the case smaller, you know, if it's a half-size thing or whatever, they have to cut out fewer of those little golf ball holes, like, it's going to be a cheaper machine.
00:22:40 ◼ ► That's how much headroom there is. That's the magic of ARM, is that the cost to Apple to build these computers is so much lower than it was when they were paying big, especially on the high end.
00:23:24 ◼ ► Much of that R&D cost is shared across their entire product line, and so I feel like they could, you know, obviously there's always going to be the inherent high costs of manufacturing large chips.
00:23:36 ◼ ► Because they're always going to have lower yields and cost more money to make just at the silicon level, but, like, the R&D costs and everything are going to be much lower for Apple, I think, compared to somebody like Intel, because they're able to spread it across the entire smartphone market in addition to their entire PC business.
00:24:05 ◼ ► Like, well, here you go, you want a high-end chip with a lot of cores, this is what we have to offer, and Apple probably looks at it and says, "A bunch of that stuff we don't need, a bunch of that stuff we wish was slightly different."
00:24:22 ◼ ► And, you know, like, the big amount of work that went in was like, the big hit was the M1, and they're getting some of that back by using it in the iPad, so they don't have to even do that work again.
00:24:43 ◼ ► We've talked before in the past about how it's easy to forget that Apple uses essentially a single-core operating system from their watches to their giant Mac Pros and everything in between, and that's the software version of that, the hardware version of that is totally true now that they're off of Intel.
00:24:58 ◼ ► They do some very difficult core design work once, and that pays dividends for years and years. So, we'll see how much of that savings get passed on to us, but I really hope it's some, especially at the high end.
00:25:12 ◼ ► Yeah, so my concern is, like, because they have, because, according to this rumor, like, it's most likely that they have combined the number of CPU cores and the number of GPU cores together into, like, two presets or four presets, that if you want a high amount of GPU power or a high amount of CPU power, you might have to take both and take the costs of both.
00:25:34 ◼ ► So, I think we're going to have fewer options than ever on this new crop of machines that use the Jade series of chips, including, you know, even down to the MacBook Pro, but, you know, I think we're going to have very few options, and that's not a great thing for cost management or future upgradeability, but that's a whole separate thing.
00:25:52 ◼ ► All right, can we move on from the Mac Pro? I know that's a pipe dream with you, too, but let's try. Let's talk about something else I really don't care about. Hey, how many fans does the iMac have?
00:26:15 ◼ ► And, you know, there was some, I was like, "Oh, what does this mean?" Because the only difference is one GPU core and this is actual binning, right? The other thing is the high-end one has more I/O, and maybe those I/O chips cause more heat. Like, I don't think there's a lot of heat going on in there anyway. You know, they have two fans may even be overkill, one fan is probably plenty. These are not noisy machines. I don't think it's a big deal, but it is interesting to me that Apple made that difference. Why not just have two fans in both of them?
00:26:40 ◼ ► They're really trying to make them as quiet as possible, and, you know, the combination of maybe whatever extra chips they had to have in there for the extra USB-C ports, and the one fewer GPU core put it below the threshold on the low-end one.
00:26:54 ◼ ► And so the low-end one, I mean, might be quieter, might be noisier if that fan has to go on more and go up to a higher RPM. But it's a strange difference that, you know, it's kind of, you would think for uniformity purposes they would differentiate the machines, maybe just not putting the ports in.
00:27:09 ◼ ► And in the end they were the same thing under the covers, but that's a pretty big difference. And no one has mentioned that who's gotten review units. I don't know if everyone got the high-end ones or everyone got the low-end ones. Mostly because in general you can't hear these things anyway. So it's mostly academic, but I thought it was interesting.
00:27:24 ◼ ► I was kind of curious why they didn't try a more passive design with the iMac, because if you look at how the M1 MacBook Air is physically designed, like how it is fanless, it basically uses the air around the chip's heatsink as kind of like a thermal buffer, because for various ergonomic safety reasons, laptops can't be above a certain external temperature.
00:27:51 ◼ ► So they didn't just like bond the heatsink to the exterior casing and transmit all the heat to the casing. They kind of like use the air inside as like a thermal cushion/insulator/thermal mass, whatever it is. So the heatsink is not directly touching the outside of the case.
00:28:07 ◼ ► So the performance of the MacBook Air is limited by basically how much heat they can dissipate with a very small heatsink really in a pretty small enclosed space. The iMac is a much bigger space, and I know they don't have a ton of room in that thickness behind the display, but I'm surprised they didn't attempt a totally fanless iMac as well and basically use part of that massive display area, which is mostly an empty cavity.
00:28:34 ◼ ► I think mostly for speaker reverberation or whatever. To have just a giant heatsink with a giant air pocket and have that be totally fanless for a much longer time than the MacBook Air can do it.
00:28:46 ◼ ► I mean, well, the iMac is thin, and also that giant screen does produce its own heat. So it's not like the only thing in there producing heat is the system on a chip. It's just so thin. Is it thinner than the MacBook Air?
00:28:58 ◼ ► It's tight in there, and that screen has got to be producing a lot of heat. I think a lot of the stuff behind the screen might also be for dissipating heat from the monitor, but I think if they made the right call, especially if it's super duper quiet, give the desktops and fans. You don't want it thermal throttling. It should be one of the benefits to having it plugged in all the time, is you don't have to deal with any thermal throttling.
00:29:18 ◼ ► I mean, think about the iPad with the M1. There's no air gaps in there for that thing to be a thermal buffer. Is the iPad clocked lower? Same thing with the iPad. It's not like they're going to heat weld that system on a chip to the case either, because you don't want your iPad to be hot in your hands either.
00:29:39 ◼ ► So speaking of the MacBook Air, let's talk about the ski feet. Alex Elkins writes, "The MacBook Air ski grips could also be so that the grips actually work when the laptop is on your lap. With grips at the corners, they don't really do much when the laptop is sitting on top of your lap."
00:29:53 ◼ ► I mean, I guess it depends how far apart your legs are. The rumored picture showed the little rubber skis on the bottom sort of at the far edges of the laptop, so if your knees are together, those rubber strips might be still floating in the air. But it's a theory.
00:30:15 ◼ ► Bigger contact patch for tired Gs. Again, plausible, but it could just be a style thing, as people have pointed out. If you look under the horrendously expensive Pro stand, it also has two rubber strips like that.
00:30:32 ◼ ► The new iMacs also have two strips. It might just be a style thing. I'm trying to think of a functional reason why having two strips is better than having a U-shape or, I don't know. On a laptop, I think it's going to be weird, but we'll see if that rumor is even true.
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00:33:03 ◼ ► "The Lightning 3.5mm audio cable was designed to allow AirPod Max to connect to analog sources for listening to movies and music. AirPods Max can be connected to devices playing lossless and high-res lossless recordings with exceptional audio quality.
00:33:29 ◼ ► So it's there so you can listen to analog audio sources, but apparently it's taking the analog audio and converting it to digital for... I don't understand this. Marco, can you try to explain what the hell's going on?
00:33:41 ◼ ► Sure. My best guess is that the cable itself does... I'm not sure if inside the cable actually has a DAC, which would be at the Lightning end. They do fit. That's how the little Lightning to USB or headphone adapters work.
00:33:56 ◼ ► So you could put a really tiny little crappy DAC in there and it would be fine. But the main reason it has to become digital in the first place, on the way from analog source to your analog ears, is most likely because the entire signal path inside the AirPods Max is digital to do things like the noise processing.
00:34:14 ◼ ► So that's probably why it has to then resample any analog input as digital and just do a very low latency conversion and processing of that. So that's probably what they're doing. And that is common in the industry to do stuff like that in certain areas.
00:34:31 ◼ ► Even most microphone interfaces these days, most of the good ones have digital processing, which is actually one of the reasons why I still prefer my old Sound Devices USB Pre 2, which as far as I can tell is all analog processing stream, compared to the new Sound Devices MixPre series, which I think does digital processing because I sound very slightly different and worse in my own ears on a MixPre than I do on a USB Pre 2.
00:35:00 ◼ ► And I think what I'm detecting is a little tiny bit of latency with the digital signal path. Anyway, so making that very low latency is hard. And I don't know quite how low it could reasonably get and still do any level of processing.
00:35:15 ◼ ► But anyway, that's probably what they're doing in these headphones for all that. So what they're basically saying is it's not going to be lossless, there will be some loss of quality because on the way from your analog source through the analog cable into the headphones, it's being converted back to digital one more time before it's processed and then converted back to analog for your ears.
00:35:38 ◼ ► Yeah, and this is just their technical explanation of what we said in the last show, which is you think you're going to lossless, you connect a cable, you're not, in this case with the AirPods Max, right? So that's their explanation. And it's a little bit confusing because they don't go into too much technical detail. But what you said, Marco, sounds plausible.
00:35:54 ◼ ► They also say in the document that Apple's lightning the 3.5 millimeter adapter that you use to connect wired headphones only supports up to 24 bit to 48 kilohertz. And if you need something higher, you need a dedicated DAC for that.
00:36:08 ◼ ► And we knew that like we just last show, it seems like that all of the DACs that are built into the stuff that Apple has, including the tiny cruddy one that's inside this little adapter, don't support 192 kilohertz, right? So if you want that, you got to use something else.
00:36:21 ◼ ► Yeah, and a few other points to add to this. Number one, people tend to think that the quality of the DACs matters a lot between like whether it was the built in headphone port on older devices or whether it's like the little stupid little headphone dongle that we were just talking about.
00:36:37 ◼ ► And I think when people can detect differences in quality in like, you know, the new lightning to 3.5 millimeter adapter versus old jacks, I think they're actually detecting a difference in amp power because the little tiny little amp that would be in that little adapter is going to probably be weaker than whatever amp was built into the phone before.
00:36:58 ◼ ► And where that manifests itself in like noticeable way is you're probably not going to hear like noise differences, but you will probably hear like if that little amp doesn't have enough power to like hit a strong bass note or something that that's like a big power spike when you're amplifying something.
00:37:14 ◼ ► And usually like depending on what kind of headphones you're plugging that into if you're plugging into like larger, nicer, maybe headphones that are not entirely meant for portable use and maybe meant for like studio use or high end listening, like with powerful amps, you would notice like, Oh, this this sounds kind of muddy at the low end because it's not getting enough power to actually deliver that big thump for the bass note.
00:37:34 ◼ ► A couple other things to mention here before we move on. The reason why Bluetooth headphones don't support these lossless codecs. I didn't realize that the Bluetooth data transfer speeds were not as high as I thought they were, especially if you want to stick to Bluetooth low energy, which I would imagine Apple probably does whenever possible for battery life reasons.
00:38:15 ◼ ► So that's that's possibly one more reason why AirPods don't support like the higher the higher range of things. In addition to them just probably not even having built in DACs that go higher than 2448.
00:38:33 ◼ ► And we'll see how Apple you know works on that in the future like Apple can compress losslessly but lossless compression as I mentioned last week tends to max out at around 50% efficiency.
00:38:54 ◼ ► And so you have to accommodate for the full bandwidth of the signal like the full uncompressed bandwidth you have to accommodate for that when you're figuring like whether something has enough bandwidth or not to transfer.
00:40:52 ◼ ► The only people who can hear the difference typically are people who are trained specifically in like identifying an exact certain type of situation in the audio that that compression codec is not super good at encoding.
00:44:47 ◼ ► And if you throw out that information it makes the file smaller but then when we listen the reason we can't hear a difference is because it threw out stuff that we weren't hearing anyway.
00:45:09 ◼ ► Because in the end if you want to make it smaller and you know if it's a lossy codec what lossy means is they're throwing away information and if you just threw away half the information it would be terrible.
00:45:50 ◼ ► We land on an alien planet and we look at their images on their web pages and they all look like garbage because their version of compression throws away information that their alien eyes don't consider important.
00:46:06 ◼ ► Anyway that's free just take that's a if you can turn that into a tweet link sci-fi story and post it to that what is that Twitter account like mini sci-fi fantasy stories they post sci-fi fantasy stories that fit in a single tweet.
00:46:38 ◼ ► Yeah that was nice like we were asking that question last time like what is it about the HomePod that would not allow it to do lossless because you know it's got plenty of bandwidth they're all on Wi-Fi.
00:46:47 ◼ ► Like it's not like you know we could either all network together if we could somehow tell them in the HomePod is a little computer itself just you play the music from Apple Music and then why can't you get the loss of some play it and the answer seems to be the software teams responsible for the HomePod didn't get that done yet.
00:47:03 ◼ ► So they get a until until you know because what it does now is it just plays the AC but anyway it's nice to see that support coming it probably doesn't really make a difference if you're less listening on the HomePod mini.
00:47:23 ◼ ► No I mean even on the full-blown big big discontinued HomePod even in a wonderful stereo pair first of all it's doing so much processing to that audio that there's no there's no real benefit in feeding it you know something like super pure like pure signal uncompressed 24/1/2 because it's you know it's gonna do the same thing that the headphones are doing.
00:47:43 ◼ ► It's gonna like you know sample it as digital and process it in a certain pipeline and everything but that's another point we should point out that we've already moved on from that is one of the other pieces of feedback we got which is not really relevant to our discussion but now it suddenly is because you're talking about reprocessing audio.
00:47:57 ◼ ► One of the contexts where high bitrate you know I you know 24-bit no 192 kilohertz audio files where that was actually useful is in the audio production pipeline not the finished product but in the audio production pipeline because if you're running it through a series of
00:48:11 ◼ ► steps and grinding it up you really want to have a little bit of excess quality because every time you do some processing you shave off some edges or whatever so it's not as if we're saying these formats are pointless we were talking about for end consumers like when you download a song this is the final product that you're going to listen to that point it's pointless for you to get 22 kilohertz right but for processing maybe not so to your point Marco about well the HomePod is going to chop up that audio anyway I don't I still don't think this is true given the quality of the speakers that are in the HomePod.
00:48:40 ◼ ► But theoretically if you fed it a higher fidelity file and it chopped it up through its machinery maybe you know it would it would come out slightly better if it was a little bit of excess quality that you couldn't hear on the way in.
00:48:55 ◼ ► Yeah, yeah, I'm glad you made the distinction because we did hear from a couple people who were like you know I work in a recording studio and we record it you know 24 bit like well yes you should record a 24 bit I'm recording this podcast right now at 24 bit lossless because I'm going to do stuff with the files that's very we don't deliver it that way it is funny I actually as a joke I wanted to deliver last week's episode as lossless as an option but the the 24 bit 192 kilohertz stereo lossless file.
00:49:36 ◼ ► But yeah that was a fun joke anyway yeah so there is like there is definitely reason for these fronts to exist it but it's not in like delivering them to consumers after they've already been mastered and mixed and everything at that point yeah there's there's not much point.
00:49:51 ◼ ► I will say on the on the home pod from we got this I don't think we ever talked about this on the show yet there the home pod the full size home pod and the with the new Apple TV now supports this eARC thing was this on our list anywhere.
00:50:20 ◼ ► Right so there is a protocol that TVs can use to send audio that to send whatever audio the TV is playing back down an HDMI cable to a receiver or something you know something to to play audio.
00:50:40 ◼ ► But if you have the new Apple TV and you know one or two original big discontinued home pods it now supports the thing where the TV can through eARC connected to the Apple TV can play any TV audio including stuff that is not playing from the Apple TV like a game console or something.
00:51:47 ◼ ► I assume this is you know possibly COVID introduced or COVID induced supply chain disruption combined with poor sales of that model while they hopefully are preparing some kind of new big home pod but it just isn't ready yet.
00:52:17 ◼ ► I hope that that line is not done yet as we said before and I and what we're seeing now from like how the big one keeps getting new features mysteriously especially when the small one doesn't have them or gets them like much later.
00:52:38 ◼ ► They probably just got some kind of you know disruption or ended the big one early because it was selling so poorly or whatever but hopefully hopefully there will be more large home pods in the future.
00:53:01 ◼ ► All right then final piece of follow-up I promise when he had an email from David Steir and maybe the two of you already understood this but I just could not wrap my mind around what people were saying with regard to this and this was the first time it really clicked for me.
00:53:15 ◼ ► So the question that David was answering was why is it that the original AirPods the non-pro AirPods support spatial audio but don't support it in the context of video or whatever it's called when it's with video.
00:53:28 ◼ ► You know so you can't do the thing where if you twist your head while watching a show on your iPad it'll change the soundscape but you can use spatial audio with Apple Music when that's a thing.
00:54:04 ◼ ► But if you're just listening to music there's no real origin of the sound and so you don't have to worry about mutating and changing that sound as you move your head necessarily because there's no like spot that it's supposed to be coming from.
00:54:39 ◼ ► So many things that Apple does tie into the AR VR stuff in fact we talked a lot about this when spatial audio was first introduced and when the AirPods Pro came out with their transparency mode and how that was kind of audio AR.
00:54:51 ◼ ► Yeah obviously if and when Apple ever fields an AR VR product this technology will surely be heavily featured because it is essential for lots of cool stuff to work when you're wearing AR VR glasses and or goggles and or whatever.
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00:58:02 ◼ ► Look at the you know see again see this picture on the chapter look at the the previous Apple TV 4k that looks like an Apple box dead center is a top view of the Apple TV it is very sort of elemental and spare.
00:58:27 ◼ ► It's not a particularly pleasing composition but it's like it's so important that you understand that this thing does not come with the old remote like hey I mean they I wonder if they even considered like let's just put the remote on the cover like that's not even because the Apple TV just looks like a black void anyway it's a black rounded rectangle right you can barely see the Apple TV.
00:58:45 ◼ ► You know the Apple logo and the word letters T and V on the top of it. How about we just put the remote because honestly that's the only thing people touch you don't see the little box under your TV somewhere it's black it's got one little light on it right.
00:58:57 ◼ ► So yeah this is all about the remote and also the other thing is I think the box had to be physically bigger because the remote is bigger so once you had the box is physically bigger maybe putting the Apple TV in it started to look a little lonely with all that white space but yeah it's all about the remote.
00:59:21 ◼ ► Again I was coming from the first I don't remember the formal name for this but the first generation of Apple TV that actually let you install apps and I had never upgraded since as we talked about quite a bit over the last few weeks.
00:59:34 ◼ ► You know it's still 1080 it's 100 megabit Ethernet port etc etc. And before I installed my new Apple TV in its place I remembered that there was a thing and I forget exactly where it is I'll put it in the show notes, but I won't remember off the top of my head but there's a thing and it's something like use a shared home screen again that's not actually what it's called but something like that.
00:59:57 ◼ ► And I thought to myself you know what I should verify I have this on and I did find it it is buried in the menu system again I'll put the steps in the show notes but basically I verified it was on on the old Apple TV and then I disconnected it and I put the new Apple TV in its place committing the same sin I did before of using the same power cord that was already there the same sin I committed.
01:00:34 ◼ ► Oh well I did and we'll get it we'll get to that later on but nevertheless I plug it in and you know I reuse all the same cabling and all that that's there and the setup process was pretty darn good.
01:00:57 ◼ ► And I did that and it all came up on the home screen and it looked like the default home screen for a few seconds and all of a sudden it started filling itself in and downloading apps and so on and so forth.
01:01:08 ◼ ► And it all worked pretty well I do have a couple of test flight apps that it didn't even consider installing which was a bummer and the only other thing I'd like to briefly complain about is I don't think any non-Apple app persisted login information.
01:01:23 ◼ ► So like Plex I needed to repair, Netflix I needed to repair, we actually pay for Sirius XM for reasons and I needed to repair that I needed to repair Spotify which I actually think that wouldn't work until I turned my piehole off.
01:01:55 ◼ ► Exactly right and that was kind of annoying because it has gotten way better over the years because among other things when you're on the same network in the same iCloud ID or whatever the requirements are as an iPhone you can actually do that text entry via your iPhone.
01:02:11 ◼ ► And in fact I use 1Password everywhere and so it would prompt me on my phone "hey do you want to enter your password for Netflix?" and then I could use the 1Password integration with the iPhone's password manager such that it would automatically load my Netflix password out of 1Password, paste it in the field on my phone and then transmit it over the air to the Apple TV and paste it in there.
01:02:36 ◼ ► So it wasn't nearly as egregious as it used to be but it's just a bummer man like there should be a better way to do this and I would assume that there's APIs for this maybe I'm wrong but nevertheless that really bummed me out.
01:02:55 ◼ ► Hey isn't it super annoying that you have to re-log into HBO and re-log into Hulu and re-log into Netflix and you know I subscribe to a million things so I get this like the maximum version of this.
01:03:21 ◼ ► That's part of it that's like that's only like things that require cable logins to do and that's not many of the certain like you know that doesn't include things like Netflix or Disney or whatever.
01:03:30 ◼ ► No I think like the rest of Apple's stuff has a way to do this. It's Keychain and iCloud Keychain and the reason why I think that this is not available on Apple TV is that Apple TV has no concept of a local passcode at least not by default.
01:03:45 ◼ ► And the way iCloud Keychain works on other devices is like Apple tell developers don't store login credentials in iCloud because they don't use like the regular iCloud store key value store or whatever else don't use that.
01:04:01 ◼ ► Right what they say but they have to they have Keychain which is like the local device you know secure storage thing that's encrypted and everything else and they have iCloud Keychain and the way iCloud Keychain works in a secure way at a high level is it's not storing all those credentials and stuff that you put in Keychain directly in iCloud it's storing them encrypted.
01:04:20 ◼ ► That's why when you set up a new device with iCloud Keychain you don't have to just log into your Apple ID it prompts you to enter the password or passcode from some other device that's in your iCloud Keychain.
01:04:32 ◼ ► Because then it uses that encryption key like from that local device to decrypt a new copy of it for itself or something like that like but anyway Apple TV doesn't really have a concept of a local passcode or you know local user authentication beyond like purchases.
01:04:50 ◼ ► That being said with the exception of the password stuff I've replaced a number of Apple TVs over the last you know five or ten years and I do that single home screen sync thing and it works fantastically for me with that one exception it never saves my passwords for things but with that one exception it works perfectly and I really enjoy that feature and like I did the upgrade for mine where you know I was basically moving to Apple TVs I did the I did that upgrade in like ten minutes it was it was one of the smoothest upgrade experience I've ever had for any product.
01:05:18 ◼ ► With the again with that with that sole exception exception of entering passwords but even even the password thing was it was improved by by a couple of factors number one I don't think I have as many video watching apps as either of you but some of them like Disney has this thing I think Amazon did the same thing.
01:05:35 ◼ ► Disney had a thing where you if you have the Disney plus app installed on your phone you just open it up on your phone on the same network and it says hey do you want to authenticate this new TV you say yes and that's it so it's like you know two taps right and then Amazon had a thing where I could just use the phone camera to scan a QR code on the TV and it did a URL scheme trick to authenticate so there were there were a few others the only one I actually had to type my password in was Netflix.
01:05:58 ◼ ► See but the problem with the Disney plus thing which I agree with you and is nice in principle is that for almost all of these apps when they ask me for local network access it's typically citing a Chromecast as the reason for local network access so I turned them all off because I don't have a Chromecast.
01:06:15 ◼ ► So for a minute there I was like why is the Disney app not letting me log in what is the right because it doesn't have local network access so can't even see the Apple TV that's the problem so other than that I do agree with you by the way while I'm talking real time follow up it is called one home screen and it is in settings users and accounts.
01:06:35 ◼ ► Then you have to click on your users so for me it would say Casey lists or whatever, then in there is one home screen so it is 1234 screens inside into settings but it is there and if you keep I don't know how long it needs to be on on the old Apple TV I would guess you know a few minutes.
01:06:55 ◼ ► That should totally be the default I remember when I first found that feature I'm not sure if it is anymore but I remember when the feature first came out I'm like oh thank god because I was so tired of setting up the home screens because you know I want them to be all the same.
01:07:06 ◼ ► It's nice because I think most of us don't have a lot of Apple TV apps certainly as compared to our iPhone apps probably and so it is actually fairly quick to get everything set up in terms of you know the local authentication all the things you just described hey the Disney app does this thing where you can launch it like this one uses scan to QR code so that's type in the password.
01:07:24 ◼ ► Sometimes I have to type in the password sometimes I don't know how to log in that's exactly the problem Apple is supposed to be solving right and the single sign on thing with cable companies was at the time it came out a good solution because you know most of our TV was through cable stuff then that you know and there weren't as many streaming services right and I think they've made a couple of efforts at similar things in this to try to get everybody on board but of course we know Netflix isn't going to be on board they won't even be in the TV app and it's just it's too fragmented so this problem persists like this should be something that Apple is trying to do.
01:07:53 ◼ ► Something that Apple should continue to work on solving if they want to just go with iCloud keychain which I think is a reasonable solution they have all tech to do that and it's not like these Apple TV boxes are you know too cheap for them to include this.
01:08:06 ◼ ► Hey let's just put touch ID in the center of the little pad on the remote and right and there is your passcode make me enter a four or five or six digit code help make me enter an alphanumeric passcode right.
01:08:18 ◼ ► It's not like we don't have the technology to put a passcode on the Apple TV just do it I'll use my phone to enter the passcode once instead of entering my password five times and scanning a QR code three times and going to website.com/activate two times and using Disney+ app.
01:08:32 ◼ ► Like it's too much there too it's too different and I granted I'm an extreme case as I subscribe to every video service in the world but it's the it kind of really undercuts the you know one home screen experience because you think you're done like oh everything's back to the way it was and then you sit down.
01:08:47 ◼ ► I mean this even happened to us even I knew this was going to be the case I just you know slipped my mind after I had set the thing up because I had to go you know set up some other stuff upstairs or whatever.
01:08:54 ◼ ► And then we go down to watch a show and it's like oh what's the Netflix password no one knows what the Netflix password you got to get out your phone and you got to do the thing and it's just and then you forget about it again you go to watch something on Hulu the next day like oh I didn't sign into Hulu it's just this death by a thousand cuts.
01:09:08 ◼ ► Some of the things that even Apple controls they didn't manage to sync right the accessibility setting the one accessibility setting that I use on my Apple TV which I highly recommend that everybody use again maybe in case we will look up where this is but somewhere under accessibility.
01:09:30 ◼ ► What that means is and I'm sure there are some people who don't think it's an issue but other people know exactly what I'm talking about if you ever look at your Apple TV you know the television when your Apple TV is in use and you can't tell what the hell is supposed to be selected.
01:09:51 ◼ ► Then the non-selected things slightly and also depending on what remote you have if you move your finger around on the touch pad or wiggle the remote or whatever you can see the little tile that is selected slanting and reflecting the light you know this used to be a demo they would do look at this it's kind of slanting and reflecting.
01:10:13 ◼ ► That's what this accessibility feature does it draws a white outline around the selected square imagine that so you can look at the screen and say I know which one is selected it's the one with the white outline.
01:10:34 ◼ ► Oh God it drives me nuts to just use that zooming thing I don't know why there's not more complaints about it I guess everyone else is that much you never bothered me you can always tell the one thing is 7% bigger than the things next even if I can't if I just think about touching the touch pad trackpad whatever it's called you find that you find the thing that wiggles I feel like I shouldn't need to wiggle that's that's a sign that this is a bad interface I shouldn't need to induce a wiggle to say I can't tell what selected but let me make it are the thing that moved my eyes move to the motion that's a selected one.
01:11:03 ◼ ► And the worst is like you never know where the selection is like when an app launches you're like is if I want to go to search say there's like a search at the top of the thing how many rows up do we need to go where is the selection now am I already in the search bar you can't tell unless you move the move the selection out of it oh it went dimmer so I must have already been in the top bar so I should just move to the right two spaces to get to the magnifying glass.
01:11:23 ◼ ► The only way I can know that is if I swipe down and realize the top bar now gets dimmer which means the previous selection was in the top bar selection state in tvOS is a problem so please go to accessibility and try the setting I think you'll like it but anyway that setting hey draw a white outline around the selected things didn't carry over from my one home screen thing it's on all of my Apple TVs and has been since the feature was rolled out everything else synced but not that setting and the second thing that didn't sync was the function of the little button that has like a button.
01:11:54 ◼ ► Oh yep yep yep yep I was I couldn't figure out what the heck was going on I was like I TV app versus home screen yeah I hit the button I'm like where am I I'm on the TV app what the hell is this I want that button to go to the home screen saying that is my preference on every single Apple TV it didn't sync so I had to manually set those two functions back to their correct things.
01:12:13 ◼ ► So yeah set up in general easy but I feel like migration assistant on the Mac does a better job of actually I mean granted there are advantages here we are going over the iCloud keychain will bring all of my login information with me but the Mac doesn't drop settings like this Mac doesn't forget oh did you allow you know right click on your mouse it's like doesn't forget things like that it remembers everything down to like my keyboard repeat rate right so I feel like the few preferences that I said on Apple TV should also be synced.
01:12:42 ◼ ► I can totally understand that there's a reason why I haven't mentioned anything about Apple about tv OS because if we're talking about tv OS I have many problems that will probably never be solved and some of us seem to be getting worse but this Apple TV hardware and the new remote that's that's a different thing.
01:13:01 ◼ ► Before we get to the remote I would just like to say that I was unaware before tonight that John Sirkis the superpower is being able to spot his mouse cursor on his screen the size of a house without jiggling his mouse that is absolutely incredible that you can spot it without ever jiggling your mouse.
01:13:17 ◼ ► It's like saying how can you spot where your pointer finger is like don't you always know where your pointer finger is just an extension of my arm like where's my pointer finger I have to wiggle it to follow there it is at the end of my arm it's always in the same place.
01:13:33 ◼ ► No I don't even have that feature on the draws lots of people use this feature I don't like it at all if you if you needed more power to you but I cannot stand this feature I guess because I moved the mouse too quickly out Mac OS has an accessibility feature where if you shake the mouse cursor the the cursor will suddenly get larger to let you see where it is which is a useful feature if you have trouble finding your tiny very tiny mouse cursor.
01:13:56 ◼ ► But for me when I turn that feature on it's like every once in a while something my cursor gets big for no reason because I guess I just move my mouse naturally very quickly and it interprets that as a as a shake so no I don't use that feature maybe if my vision gets worse eventually I'll start using it but for now I don't use it.
01:14:32 ◼ ► Anyway all right let's talk about this remote I should have brought it upstairs I think I didn't think about that so I can I can mess with it while I'm talking to you guys but I really like it I definitely there it is not the panacea that I thought it would be but it is definitely way better and I am not a prior rounder.
01:14:47 ◼ ► I'm not a prior remote hater I just thought the prior remote was fine it was annoying in ways it was good in ways it was fine this is just my opinion I know a lot of people disagree but this new one I really like and I'm jumping ahead ever so slightly.
01:15:14 ◼ ► I didn't until just a moment ago and so I wasn't listening to it and Mike Hurley you know from upgraded and connected was telling me no no no you got to hold your finger on it or something I don't know have you made this work because I've never made this work.
01:15:27 ◼ ► It didn't even occur to me to try that feature when I was actually using the Apple TV to you know watch TV so the first time I saw the feature in action was in this tweet that someone has a video of them doing it and the interface is exactly what I thought it would be if you just told me what do you think it's gonna look like exactly what it looks like so you.
01:15:42 ◼ ► I don't know I'm sure that the procedure but my guess would have been pause the show put your finger on the jog dial and then that in the timeline in the little scrubby timeline on your TV screen where you have the little dot showing your current position in the timeline suddenly a little circle will appear around that with a dot in it like a jog dial around the part where you are and then as you move your finger on the remote in a circle you will see that circle roll like a wheel as the.
01:16:17 ◼ ► I think I had tried this I feel like I tried this in a couple of apps but Plex was definitely one of them and I am fairly confident that Plex does not use the out of the box video player so in that case I think it's a combination of me not really knowing how to activate the feature.
01:16:33 ◼ ► And the app I was using didn't support it but I could swear I tried it in the Apple TV app because I've been rewatching Ted lasso in preparation for it coming back next month or 2 months from now and I swear I tried it in the Apple TV app and I didn't get it to work then so I'm sure it's at least in part user error maybe entirely user error but I really want to see this and try it and for the life of me I just can't get it to work right.
01:16:57 ◼ ► Did you remember if you post first I thought so but again I'm not confident I did and since I had this conversation with Mike I haven't had a chance to go to go down and try it but I will definitely try it and maybe we can do a very brief follow up next week.
01:17:10 ◼ ► I'm not sure how much I'm going I mean I'll try it you know just now because I'm curious but I'm not I'm is not a feature that I was looking for is like I really I really need a way to scrub around timelines more quickly because that's one of the few things that the swipey touch pad was actually OK at right.
01:17:26 ◼ ► And the thing is I don't think the jog that I'll give in theory the jog I'll give you more precision and swiping but I'm not sure it really does because if it did give you that much more precision it would take forever to jog your way any appreciable distance because you'd be drawn tons and tons tiny little circles with your thumb right.
01:17:42 ◼ ► So I'll try it and see what it's like but I think it was remote. We talked about it very a lot when it was introduced but none of us have one in our hands and I think pretty much everything that I said about my expectations to the remote in that episode is the truth.
01:17:59 ◼ ► Like if you look at a picture of it you have a good assessment of its strengths and weaknesses versus its predecessor and versus other remotes having it in hand now and having used it on two different TV's it remains too small for my hands it's bigger than it was.
01:18:23 ◼ ► They're shy these buttons are shy they're small and elegant right they're kind of closely packed they're not really different sizes or shapes from each other other than the volume rocker.
01:18:43 ◼ ► It's okay lots of remotes what Casey I think is getting at is if you if you just get a cheap crappy remote you know the rubbery button feel that's not a good button feel in general like you want something that feels like you're pressing something in a really cheap remote will just feel mushy.
01:18:58 ◼ ► But you can have what I'm describing as a button that has a positive click where you're sure when you clicked it and you're sure when you didn't and it's also not like one 18th of a millimeter off of the surface.
01:19:09 ◼ ► Yeah yeah that part I agree with like I don't personally find it a problem but I don't think it would be bad for them to be raised higher off the surface of the remote and separated more widely on a larger mode.
01:19:35 ◼ ► And then it just becomes a five way up down left right press the button in the middle right and it will just ignore all touch input and I think that is a great feature to add for people who have motor difficulty dealing with the touch interface which at various times is me.
01:19:49 ◼ ► And again we talked about this last time one of the great things about the remote is that the entire top of it is not a touch surface so you can confidently lift it off the table by its tiny little sides which still should be bigger but you can confidently lift it off the table knowing I'm not accidentally doing something to the touch pad because it's so clear you're not going to be able to touch it.
01:20:04 ◼ ► And the other thing is that you can't touch the touch pad because it's so clear that you're gripping the metal edge of the remote and you're not touching that one little touch sensitive area in the middle granted the jog valve is also touch sensitive but if you brush up against that I don't think it does anything.
01:20:14 ◼ ► It's that center thing that if you have the touch thing on you know is the danger zone but it's very easy to tell that you're not touching that danger zone versus the other remote where half literally half the remote was a danger zone and you could never tell which half it was because they were looked identical in the dark right.
01:20:29 ◼ ► So that's good about this remote, but I didn't disable the touch surface because I found through years and years of using the stupid diving board you do eventually get used to swiping because it is faster than going down down down.
01:20:41 ◼ ► And suddenly with the danger of me accidentally hitting the touch pad gun I'm left with only the benefits of well when you do want to go you know before I bother to get off the couch and get my phone sometimes I'm actually trying to enter my email address with the little swipey thing on the little alphabet number line thing where you're trying to go from A to Q to whatever.
01:21:03 ◼ ► Swiping is good for that. And even just going around on the home screen just looking around for something swiping is good for that too. So I don't know if I'm going to keep the swipe function on but for now I'm still seeing some benefits of having the little swipey area and you would think the area is too small to be useful for swiping but it's not.
01:21:18 ◼ ► Because in general you just, you know, flick flick flick you're not, it's not like it's not like a trackpad where you're dragging your fingers around it's more of a gesture pad. Right. So that I think works, maybe slightly better than I expected.
01:21:31 ◼ ► The one good feature that I didn't anticipate about this remote is the fact that the back button is like more concave I guess I don't know, do any of you have the remotes none of us thought to bring it with us.
01:21:46 ◼ ► Anyway, the back button feels different than the home button that's right next to us. Imagine that making buttons feel different. It's the same size, it's the same shape, but it's like its indentation is different than the home button.
01:22:01 ◼ ► So, when it's dark and you've got the remote in your hand, which is no longer symmetrical, and you're moving your finger off of the touchpad onto the back button it's very clear to your finger that you are on the back button because it feels different I'm pretty sure it's more concave than the others right maybe the other was a totally flat and this is the only concave one, it doesn't have a big white outline around it like the menu button did.
01:22:21 ◼ ► This difference in feel is merely the top surface of the button feels different and that tiny little thing it's like an ice water in hell as Steve Jobs would say, "Ah, imagine that, different things feeling different on a remote in a tiny way in the smallest possible way."
01:22:43 ◼ ► You want different things to feel different so that you can, you know, that's one of the great things about the TiVo remote. You pick that thing up in your hand and you can feel where the buttons are with just your finger without looking at them and you will be sure that you're on the one that you expect because it's like a, you know, I don't know how you describe it.
01:23:00 ◼ ► It's like a map. Everything is a different shape and there's no ambiguity, right? When you're on that pause button or on the button to the right or the left of it or you move up to the five-way pad, everything feels different. On this remote, one thing feels different and that's the back button and it's a super important button so I'm glad that they did that and you know the five-way feels different as well.
01:23:40 ◼ ► And of those, the upper left was the Siri button, the bottom left was play/pause, and then the entire right side was volume up and volume down. Now, where the Siri button was, which is the button that I never hit, is now play/pause, which is the button I hit more than any other.
01:23:59 ◼ ► And in the bottom left, which is where the play/pause button used to be, is mute, which is a button that I do want to hit from time to time, but like a tenth as much as play/pause, and then the right hand side is still volume up/down.
01:24:12 ◼ ► So in effect, they've taken the play/pause button, moved it up to a different spot, and then taken an entirely new to the remote button, the mute button, and put it where play/pause used to be.
01:24:22 ◼ ► So every time I play/pause, I hit the friggin' mute button every single time, and it's driving me nuts. And I'm sure I will eventually retrain myself, but it's driving me absolutely batty, and I don't understand why they did it that way. I just don't.
01:24:36 ◼ ► I mean, I think I understand it a little bit in that it's kind of like when we talk about our iPhone home screens and people wonder why my apps are the way they are. Some parts of the remote are easier to hit with your thumb than others, and the far lower left bottom I think is harder to reach, especially if your thumb is mostly on the 5-way and then occasionally on the back when you're navigating.
01:24:55 ◼ ► I feel like to the extent that this remote acknowledges a hierarchy of controls, which is just what you were describing, Casey, which things do you use most often, second most often, third most often, to the extent that this remote acknowledges that that hierarchy exists, it expresses that through the positioning of the buttons.
01:25:15 ◼ ► You would imagine that if you were designing a good remote, for example, you'd realize that play/pause is probably the most important playback control in the entire thing. 5-way is probably more important for navigation, but in terms of while you're watching DVD, play/pause is probably number one with the bullet, right?
01:25:35 ◼ ► But they did give it a position that I think is easier to get to than the mute button. And yes, it's the reverse of the previous arrangement, which is messing with all of our muscle memory.
01:25:46 ◼ ► Because the remotes are similar enough, if you ignore the 5-way, the buttons in the middle, it's like three circles down the left side and then a circle and a lozenge. It's exactly the same.
01:25:57 ◼ ► And so we've spent years with that terrible Siri remote reaching for the bottom button of the three buttons on the left and having that be play/pause. And now the bottom button of the three buttons on the left isn't play/pause anymore.
01:26:36 ◼ ► In most video game controllers, there's a button that gets hit more often than the other button, and the second most often button. There's a primary button. Ask anyone who has both a PlayStation and a Switch how much they can't stand the fact that the primary action button is bottom of the four buttons on the PlayStation, but is the right of the four buttons on the Switch.
01:26:58 ◼ ► It really makes navigating menus very difficult if you try to have muscle memory on both of those things. But either way, the correct solution was what the GameCube came up with, which is if there's a button that you hit most commonly, make that one the biggest button.
01:27:10 ◼ ► And then the button you hit the second amount, make that the second biggest button. And then maybe the tertiary button should even be a different shape. The TiVo remote does that, this remote doesn't.
01:27:19 ◼ ► Right now we're all suffering from bad muscle memory. I think we'll mostly get over it. I'm mostly just sit here trying to enjoy the one good thing about the remote, which again is the concave back button that actually feels a tiny bit different. I just celebrate that every time I hit back, but play pause. Yeah, we'll get used to it, I guess.
01:27:38 ◼ ► Well, no, but you say that, but I challenge you on that because for me, I am still going to use the Siri remote and the now upstairs Apple TV because no, you're not good. Why would you do that to yourself? Why would I spend $60 for this new remote if I don't have to?
01:27:54 ◼ ► Oh, it's a $60 well spent. Well, cause this, this right here, this is the reason that your muscle memory for play pause is going to be totally broken until you consolidate on one of these remotes. And that's exactly what I was thinking to myself five minutes ago was, Oh my God, I am going to buy one of these stupid remotes for that stupid Apple TV because it's going to drive me nuts.
01:28:11 ◼ ► It's like, it's like a soft close toilet seat. You can't have just one of those in your house. If you just have one of them, you're constantly slamming it. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Like you got to convert the whole house or none.
01:28:21 ◼ ► Yep. You're not wrong. No, my only complaint about this is that I agree with some of the Twitter people who have been complaining about the button click feel and sound kind of feels and sounds cheap.
01:28:37 ◼ ► Oh, hard disagree. Very hard disagree. I think it sounds great. You also like the butterfly keyboard. Honestly, it kind of feels and sounds like a butterfly keyboard, but it doesn't feel rubbery, which is one kind of cheapness for remote.
01:28:50 ◼ ► So for sure it doesn't feel rubbery, but I, but I think the cheapness comes from it is smaller and lighter weight and it is kind of like, you're not going to get a solid kachunk from a plastic button of this size and thickness in a remote this size.
01:29:13 ◼ ► They are less clicky I think. And it depends on if you really want that positive, like you have clicked the button versus you have just pressed down and felt something go down. I feel like the, the Siri or what's are more damped.
01:29:25 ◼ ► They are, but I think, I think that makes them feel a little bit nicer and more luxurious. Like the last thing you want in, in like your TV environment is to hear loud clicks from your buttons on your remote and it just, it doesn't, it doesn't feel high quality.
01:29:38 ◼ ► Yeah. I feel like we're getting with the volume control, cause you might be adjusting the volume while you're watching and you don't want to hear click, click, click, click, click. So I see what you're getting at there. It's just that I never used the volume on this thing anyway. So I don't have that problem.
01:29:50 ◼ ► Oh, then you're not even qualified. This is my, I'm using it exactly as Apple says, it's my only remote the vast majority of the time. The old one was too, like a lot of people didn't realize that the old one had the ability to turn your TV off as well.
01:30:02 ◼ ► Like you just held down the home button for a few seconds and it would say sleep all devices. And if you wanted to buy into HDMI C C sure. Yes. Yes. Marco and I are unicorns. Every, it works for everybody except you.
01:30:14 ◼ ► Yes, exactly. Exactly. Speaking of that though, the power button they added to the top of this, like, so there's a power button on this, which is nice. And, but the, you know, I was confused by it because I thought, Oh, this is great. This remote has an IR, you know, emitter on the front of it, I assume, cause it's a big black thing up there. Right.
01:30:32 ◼ ► So I'll just be able to let this thing know what kind of TV I have. And then when I press that power button, it will send the IR signal that my TV needs to turn off. As far as I can tell, it doesn't do that. Apple TV does supposedly understand what kind of TV I have, but it is not.
01:30:50 ◼ ► It doesn't, as far as I've been able to tell, there's no way for me to get the new Apple TV remote to send out an IR signal to turn off my TV. Have you dug around the settings? Cause the old one could actually learn an IR remote for volume control and stuff.
01:31:02 ◼ ► You can, so you can, what you can do is you can tell the Apple TV to learn like any other remote. Like I use the TiVo remote with my Apple TV for years. Right. So you can say, Hey, Apple TV, forget about your old remote. This is your new remote. Learn this, right? You can do that. But when I looked for the thing that said, can I tell you Apple TV, what kind of TV I have so that the power button on the Apple TV remote will do stuff.
01:31:25 ◼ ► Basically what I found in the documentation was like, don't you worry about that. Apple TV knows what kind of TV you have and it will support stuff. And it does support things like the volume, like the volume buttons work. I just don't use my TV's volume. I use my receiver's volume. Right.
01:31:36 ◼ ► That's a different remote. Right. But I don't think there's any way, like it knows what kind of TV I have and in theory it knows what kind of IR signal it should emit to turn my television off, but it's just not going to do it. And if you look at the support document, it says, Hey, you want Apple TV to turn TV off? Use HDMI CEC. And that's where I say, Nope.
01:31:52 ◼ ► Well, it's your own fault. You should try it. Maybe in my next TV setup, I'll try it again. But I've been my current setup. I have tried HDMI CEC and it is very bad with my current setup.
01:32:02 ◼ ► Well, for what it's worth, my TV is turned on and off via the Apple TV via CEC, but I am like you controlling the volume of a receiver that is completely and utterly unrelated from the television. And that all works. No problem. It did with my prior Apple TV. It does with this TV.
01:32:20 ◼ ► I guess I just have a better TV than you is what it boils down to because it actually works with CEC. I mean, you do remember I don't even have a 4k TV. That's right. I forgot. I knew it was plasma. I forgot it wasn't 4k. Don't worry. I'll make you feel a lot better about my TV situation. There's no there's no 4k plasma, Casey.
01:32:53 ◼ ► I'm going to say it's your brain, man. Yeah, which has many limitations to it. But a lot of people did a bunch of tests on this. My my favorite my favorite television techie YouTube channel, HDTV test, despite the fact that the host of that channel tries to make a sexual innuendo joke in every single one of his videos and every single time.
01:33:16 ◼ ► I'm begging you stop doing this. Stop doing anyway. Other than that, the TV content is really good. And he did a test of the Apple TV calibration. We'll put a link in the show notes if you want to see this video.
01:33:29 ◼ ► It gets very techie into the details of calibration. He basically says the same things like, hey, there's a bunch of settings in your TV. The Apple TV can't change. So if you actually want to calibrate your TV, you actually have to calibrate your TV.
01:33:41 ◼ ► But if you're not a professional TV caliber, like the person who runs this channel, and you just want to use this feature to make your TV better, especially if your TV is on some horrendous preset that really mangles the colors, it can get you closer to being calibrated.
01:34:54 ◼ ► I did that for a surprising amount of time. And it would just be like, are you sure you're holding it within an inch? Hold it within an inch. Make sure the top edge of your phone is within the rectangle.
01:35:17 ◼ ► I spent a long time. It was like a poltergeist episode. I spent a long time. My arm was getting tired. Holding my phone. Is this the right distance? How far away should I be? Closer? Farther? Try to -- oh, my God.
01:35:30 ◼ ► I think it just doesn't know what to make of the cameras in my iPhone. And, again, I'm using an iPhone 12 Pro, the latest Apple TV. The only thing that's ancient in this setup is my stupid TV.
01:35:48 ◼ ► But it was super finicky for me. I don't blame the device. I blame my ancient TV. But anyway, after it did everything, it gives you a screen that lets you swipe back and forth from like -- I forget what it says -- like original or calibrated.
01:36:00 ◼ ► Basically like an A/B test. It shows you a video of an aerial view, probably like a drone footage of a beach with water, and it lets you switch back and forth. Here's what you were like before, and here's what we calibrated you to.
01:36:27 ◼ ► Because in some televisions, if you use Dolby Vision, if your television sports Dolby Vision at all or something, it just says, oh, we refuse to try to calibrate your TVs probably fine, which A is not true, but B is its way of saying, look, we're not going to be able to make any improvements here because we can't make heads or tails of this.
01:36:42 ◼ ► But anyway, my TV, as previously established, is I think reasonably well calibrated, and the fact that the Apple TV calibration thing couldn't make -- like I spent a while going back and forth and staring at certain sections of the image like, does it look a little different there?
01:36:59 ◼ ► Let me turn the lights off. Is that sand a little bit browner? Oh, it's hard to tell. A, B, A, B, A, B. I'm going back and forth. So I guess that means that my television was close enough in the areas that it was trying to calibrate.
01:37:17 ◼ ► There was a difference. Eventually I could tell if you could look at certain structures or certain sections of the wave, because it's just a video loop, and eventually you've seen the same video loop 100 times. I think it did take a little bit of blue out of my picture.
01:37:29 ◼ ► The problem is, is that the right thing to do or not? I don't know what this beach footage is supposed to look like. If it pulled down a little tiny imperceptible amount of blue out of the picture, is that making my picture closer to being accurate or farther from being accurate?
01:37:50 ◼ ► But if you use the Apple TV calibration picture and the before and after are radically different, one thing you could choose to do is say, "Oh, I'll take what Apple TV did," because that's probably better, which is probably true.
01:38:03 ◼ ► It probably is better than what you're on. But the other thing you could do is take that as a very strong signal that your TV is super screwed up, calibrate your television set somehow, and then redo the Apple TV calibration and see if the difference is smaller.
01:38:15 ◼ ► Because if you have a huge difference there, it shows something is messed up, and you don't want to just fix it for the Apple TV. You want to fix it for everything, right? Unless you literally only ever watch stuff through the Apple TV.
01:38:24 ◼ ► But even then, please, everyone, consider calibrating your TV. You can actually pay people to come to the house and do it. I don't know who to recommend except for this one guy who has a YouTube channel. He lives in the UK, so unless you live in the UK, you're probably not going to get him to your house.
01:38:45 ◼ ► There are other options on the Apple TV store, whatever it's called. Most of them are terrible. That's why I always recommend THX TuneUp. It's hard because there's not a lot of great options to recommend. You can buy calibration DVDs and Blu-rays and use them to try to calibrate things.
01:39:04 ◼ ► You can go to RTINGS.com and look for a bunch of presets for your specific television, which might be better than nothing, but maybe not. But I guess failing all of that, try the Apple TV calibration feature. It's probably better than nothing.
01:39:35 ◼ ► Yeah, like, I usually, you know, when I get a new TV, which is not a common occurrence, I do a rough calibration. I did it this time. I based it on RTINGS as a starting point, and then I did a few minor tweaks for my own taste. But then I just leave it.
01:39:51 ◼ ► Well, at least one of you should try it, because what I'm curious to know is, hey, did it actually work for you? Could you hold your phone up in front of your TV screen and then it said, "Oh, we see your phone. Let me cycle through a bunch of colors." Or did you have to sit there like I did for five minutes, wondering why it's not doing its thing?
01:40:20 ◼ ► Speaking of Dolby Vision, yeah. Another thing that you will see is a second video from HDTV Test. So this is the confusing thing, because this is not an Apple YouTube channel. This is a television reviewer YouTube channel, right?
01:40:34 ◼ ► So according to the person who hosts this channel, the old Apple TV, whatever that means, had a problem with the raised blacks in Dolby Vision, which means that you'd go on a screen that's supposed to be black, and instead of it being black, it would be super, super dark gray.
01:40:47 ◼ ► And that's not good. And this was a problem with the Apple TV device, not something wrong with the television. You'd calibrate the television exactly, but then you'd play a movie through the Apple TV, and everything would be a little bit brighter than it was supposed to be.
01:41:10 ◼ ► He didn't differentiate. For all we know, this was a software fix, and it affects all the Apple TVs, and it's fixed everywhere. Or it could be, I can't imagine it could be a hardware thing, but the way he presented it was like, "Hey, if you get a new Apple TV 4K, you won't have raised blacks in Dolby Vision anymore."
01:41:24 ◼ ► I find it hard to believe that that is a feature of the hardware, not the software. So I don't have a conclusive answer to this, but it's good to know that one of the major visual deficits of watching anything in Dolby Vision on the Apple TV in the past, raised blacks,
01:51:26 ◼ ► In placing that cable back in the wall, once I was done with the outdoor speakers, I accidentally pushed the HDMI receptacle inside the wall, further into the wall, so I can't plug in the HDMI enough, right?
01:51:44 ◼ ► So now I've got to take every-- I've got to remove the faceplate, I've got to take-- I think it was-- I only had to remove the left hand, you know, gang or whatever it's called, the left hand box,
01:52:50 ◼ ► Exactly right. So all of this to say, either for bootleg people or regular show people, all of this to say, as it turns out, if you're having very wonky and intermittent problems with video dropping out or something like that,
02:03:04 ◼ ► Alright, so anyway, so listen, it's all kidding aside, I like what Marco's got going here, but if you have a solution that, and I think I'd like to spend like no more than 200 bucks on this.
02:03:15 ◼ ► If you have a solution that you think would work, please, you know, send me an email or tweet at me, because I'd love to hear, this is one of those times where I really do want to hear input.
02:03:23 ◼ ► If you think that you have a different way of handling this, I'd love to, or if you have an amplifier that you recommend or whatever the case may be, please let me know, I'd be interested to hear.
02:03:46 ◼ ► I mean, what many people would do is just use a Bluetooth receiver instead, but I don't like Bluetooth for this purpose, not only, not for sound quality reasons, I couldn't care less about that in this kind of context, but because Bluetooth is annoying to pair to.
02:04:05 ◼ ► If you have multiple people in your house, or if you want to send it from multiple devices, what if you want to play something from your iPad once, and then the next day you want to play it from your spouse's phone.
02:05:02 ◼ ► And you can find the show notes at atp.fm, and if you're into twitter, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S, so that's Casey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M, A-N-T, Marco, R-M-N, S-I-R-A-C, U-S-A, Syracuse, it's accidental.
02:06:02 ◼ ► So obviously the wall is connected to the fan, but in terms of control, they used radio frequency to control between the thing that you're touching on the wall and something internal, well not internal, but sitting right above the fan.
02:09:07 ◼ ► And really, if you're looking for a job that can never be easily outsourced to other places, or that's always going to be in demand, that's always going to be needed in the economy, become an electrician or a plumber.
02:09:27 ◼ ► Yeah, I couldn't agree more. In fact, I think part of the reason my experience with this electrician, who by the way came extremely highly recommended from the same individual that recommended the builder that did the job, and again, I loved the builder.
02:17:17 ◼ ► Yeah, but like, how do you, like, what I like about ceiling fans is that they extend much further upwards the comfortable temperature rings that you can sleep in a room without using the air conditioning.
02:18:50 ◼ ► No, like in the summertime, like I don't like using the air conditioning in my office more than I have to. Like I would rather... like I can be in my office comfortably up to about 80 degrees with the ceiling fan before I want to switch over to air conditioning.
02:19:04 ◼ ► Because they're effective. They're very good. And it saves a lot of energy. I think it's nicer. I'd rather be in a room with a fan that's a little bit warmer rather than having to switch over to air conditioning and then have like the weird cold hot transitions as I come in and out of the room or in and out of the house. Like I hate all that.
02:19:29 ◼ ► See, I have nothing... I love air conditioning more than almost anything. I just really feel like for my comfort, I need two things. And this may make me very weird and I'm okay with that. I need moving air almost always. It's very rare that I'm okay in still air. Wow, that was way too much rhyming. Oh my gosh.
02:19:58 ◼ ► No, no. This is terrible. You're just combining all the things that I don't like. You have an easy solution, Casey. Get a Mac Pro and put it on your desk. And live inside it. Just turn it around. Face the back towards you.
02:20:11 ◼ ► Do you have the television on? Casey's going to have the television on constantly at maximum volume with seven ceiling fans in each room all at full blast all the time. But all the TVs are going to be up on the ceiling.
02:20:21 ◼ ► Up on the ceiling. That's exactly right. Generally speaking, when I'm around the house, whatever room I'm in will have the fan running, usually but not always. And pretty much always there will either be ambient music playing or I will be privately listening to a podcast. One of those two things is almost always happening.
02:20:43 ◼ ► Uh, Erin has learned to live with it. I think. Oh God. Well, no, I don't know. That's not entirely true. Like Erin, her family grew up with, they were big into white noise when sleeping, typically fans. So this definitely qualifies Jon as the people who need the noise.
02:20:59 ◼ ► So like Erin cannot do silence and I used to be able to do silence just fine in terms of sleeping. That is, I used to be able to do silence sleeping just fine. But now after years and years and years of very faintly hearing the white noise machine in the kids rooms because they're being piped through the monitor.
02:21:16 ◼ ► Now when there's silence, like it was a right after new year's, I think my parents took the kids for the first time in months and months and months and months and months. And we had a night, just the two of us here at home and we didn't have the monitor on because there were no kids and there was no white noise machine on because no kids.
02:21:33 ◼ ► And it was actually somewhat hard for me to sleep because I'm so used to now this stupid white noise and I've had arguments with Erin where I've said, I don't want them addicted to this white noise like you freaking are because she cannot sleep without some sort of fan. And now I've done it to myself.