ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► - I'm enjoying a wonderful vanilla cream house seltzer

00:00:03 ◼   ► right now that I had to open with the pliers

00:00:06 ◼   ► that are still in our fridge from whenever that intro

00:00:09 ◼   ► that we did to our show with Tiff was like six months ago

00:00:12 ◼   ► or at least. - You'd be like,

00:00:14 ◼   ► oh buff from the rowing now, you should be able

00:00:16 ◼   ► to just crank that sucker open. (laughing)

00:00:20 ◼   ► - No actually, my arm's all messed up right now

00:00:22 ◼   ► for other reasons, but yeah. - Whoa what happened?

00:00:24 ◼   ► - Well it's, I've had some shoulder rotator cuff challenges

00:00:28 ◼   ► over the last six months. - Oh no!

00:00:30 ◼   ► - I've been working through it with a PT friend,

00:00:31 ◼   ► so we're getting there, but I currently have this black tape

00:00:33 ◼   ► on my arm, this rock tape that makes me look really cool.

00:00:37 ◼   ► - It does it though, that's not from trying to open

00:00:39 ◼   ► the seltzer, right? - No, well maybe, I mean,

00:00:42 ◼   ► I guess I can't fully be sure what the root cause was.

00:00:45 ◼   ► Maybe I opened so many seltzers over the last five years

00:00:48 ◼   ► that I just, I wrecked my whole left shoulder, but.

00:00:51 ◼   ► - Yeah it's all that major league pitching

00:00:52 ◼   ► you've been doing. - Yes, that's,

00:00:54 ◼   ► especially with my left arm since I'm right-handed.

00:00:56 ◼   ► Not to mention the fact that I'm not a baseball player.

00:00:58 ◼   ► I was, for one year in school, I was actually held back

00:01:03 ◼   ► in T-ball for an extra year, that was fourth grade,

00:01:08 ◼   ► but then fifth grade I played regular baseball,

00:01:11 ◼   ► and I'm pretty sure I got one hit for the entire year,

00:01:16 ◼   ► and did not play baseball after that.

00:01:18 ◼   ► - How many at bats though, 'cause if that was your only

00:01:20 ◼   ► at bat, that's a great average.

00:01:22 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:01:23 ◼   ► - Unfortunately, far more than one.

00:01:26 ◼   ► It's funny you say that.

00:01:27 ◼   ► I've told this story somewhere on the internet before,

00:01:29 ◼   ► but when I was in fifth grade, this was toward the height

00:01:34 ◼   ► of me being interested in and playing basketball.

00:01:37 ◼   ► And at my very best moments,

00:01:40 ◼   ► I was a passable basketball player.

00:01:43 ◼   ► I was never good, but when I had a good day, I was passable.

00:01:46 ◼   ► And our fifth grade, so this is not middle school,

00:01:51 ◼   ► this is still elementary school in the States,

00:01:53 ◼   ► our fifth grade school team, which in and of itself

00:01:56 ◼   ► was weird to have a school team in fifth grade,

00:01:57 ◼   ► but be that as may, it was a school team

00:02:01 ◼   ► that would travel to other schools

00:02:03 ◼   ► and play basketball against them and stuff,

00:02:04 ◼   ► which is usually something that doesn't happen in America

00:02:06 ◼   ► until you're older, at least for school affiliated teams.

00:02:09 ◼   ► Well anyway, I tried out for the fifth grade basketball team,

00:02:13 ◼   ► which is about the most athletic thing

00:02:14 ◼   ► I think I've ever done in my life.

00:02:16 ◼   ► And I tried out, and I made the team,

00:02:20 ◼   ► and then I moved like two weeks later.

00:02:22 ◼   ► And it wasn't until I was an adult

00:02:23 ◼   ► that I realized, wait a second,

00:02:25 ◼   ► they knew full well I was moving this entire time.

00:02:28 ◼   ► That was totally a pity, except that's what's in hand.

00:02:31 ◼   ► - You don't know they knew you were moving.

00:02:32 ◼   ► - I think they might have, but I'm gonna claim that.

00:02:35 ◼   ► - Did you move in order just to get away from that team?

00:02:38 ◼   ► Like do you think the team paid off your parents

00:02:41 ◼   ► to make you move?

00:02:42 ◼   ► - I'm pretty sure they did not.

00:02:43 ◼   ► It is possible, but I'm pretty sure no.

00:02:45 ◼   ► - I think it's pretty permissive.

00:02:47 ◼   ► Fifth grade basketball teams probably pretty much

00:02:49 ◼   ► let anyone on who shows any sort of desire

00:02:51 ◼   ► to be on the team, so I don't think they knew you were moving

00:02:53 ◼   ► I think they just basically take everybody.

00:02:55 ◼   ► - I mean certainly my fifth grade baseball team

00:02:57 ◼   ► was pretty permissive, if they let me on there.

00:02:59 ◼   ► - Jon, do you have a fun sports related story,

00:03:03 ◼   ► sports related failure perhaps

00:03:05 ◼   ► you would like to share with the group?

00:03:06 ◼   ► - I mean, my quote unquote career sport was tennis,

00:03:11 ◼   ► which is brutal in the same way that Microsoft used to be

00:03:14 ◼   ► where everything is force ranked.

00:03:15 ◼   ► So if you were going to be on the tennis team,

00:03:18 ◼   ► the players are pitted against each other

00:03:20 ◼   ► to determine the rankings.

00:03:22 ◼   ► So there's no question about where you are in the hierarchy

00:03:25 ◼   ► and if you want to play at all,

00:03:27 ◼   ► you have to be in the top four or whatever.

00:03:29 ◼   ► Not that, depending on what school you went to,

00:03:31 ◼   ► maybe they only had like four or five courts.

00:03:33 ◼   ► So only the top four or five people are gonna play period.

00:03:36 ◼   ► So if you're number six on your team,

00:03:37 ◼   ► you're just not gonna play at all.

00:03:38 ◼   ► And the only way for you to get higher

00:03:39 ◼   ► is to beat the number five person.

00:03:41 ◼   ► So that's the crucible I was formed in.

00:03:44 ◼   ► - Aren't sports great?

00:03:46 ◼   ► I mean, the funny thing is like sports

00:03:48 ◼   ► weren't even the most emotionally damaging part

00:03:49 ◼   ► of my school career, but they certainly didn't help.

00:03:53 ◼   ► - I love tennis.

00:03:54 ◼   ► Like, I mean, the first year I played in junior high,

00:03:56 ◼   ► no, I didn't get to play in the matches

00:03:58 ◼   ► because I was like number six or number seven,

00:04:00 ◼   ► but I worked my way up.

00:04:01 ◼   ► - So you played in junior high,

00:04:03 ◼   ► but you did not play in high school?

00:04:04 ◼   ► - No, I played in junior high and high school.

00:04:06 ◼   ► - Were you varsity in high school?

00:04:07 ◼   ► - Yeah, I was good at tennis.

00:04:09 ◼   ► - I am having a seriously difficult time

00:04:12 ◼   ► imagining any of the three of us doing varsity anything.

00:04:16 ◼   ► - I'm very athletic.

00:04:17 ◼   ► - Oh, sure.

00:04:18 ◼   ► - I am.

00:04:19 ◼   ► - I was more than us.

00:04:20 ◼   ► - Oh, let's put it this way.

00:04:21 ◼   ► I'm very coordinated.

00:04:23 ◼   ► Team sports I was less good at,

00:04:24 ◼   ► but that was mostly because I didn't have a lot

00:04:26 ◼   ► of confidence for reasons that you would imagine.

00:04:28 ◼   ► But no, I was good at tennis.

00:04:29 ◼   ► I mean, I wasn't number one or two,

00:04:31 ◼   ► but you know, I was number four.

00:04:33 ◼   ► Strong number four, occasionally number three in high school.

00:04:37 ◼   ► - In a team of four?

00:04:38 ◼   ► - No, it was like a team of people.

00:04:40 ◼   ► - Cruel.

00:04:41 ◼   ► Tiff and I just rewatched Freaks and Geese.

00:04:44 ◼   ► The first time I've seen it in probably five to 10 years,

00:04:46 ◼   ► it's been a while since then.

00:04:47 ◼   ► - I've never seen it.

00:04:48 ◼   ► - Oh, it's a fantastic series.

00:04:49 ◼   ► - I rewatched it like three months ago, coincidentally.

00:04:53 ◼   ► I rewatched it because The Incomparable was gonna do

00:04:56 ◼   ► a show about it and they said,

00:04:57 ◼   ► hey, you should rewatch this.

00:04:58 ◼   ► So I did and then I just forgot about the episode

00:05:00 ◼   ► and other people aren't anyway.

00:05:01 ◼   ► But I saw you say that you were rewatching it

00:05:03 ◼   ► and I assume you're not.

00:05:04 ◼   ► Didn't do it because of The Incomparable,

00:05:05 ◼   ► but it's weird that we both just rewatched the whole series.

00:05:08 ◼   ► - I think I did actually do it for The Incomparable, but--

00:05:10 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:05:11 ◼   ► - Oh, you did?

00:05:12 ◼   ► Were you on that episode?

00:05:13 ◼   ► - They haven't recorded it yet.

00:05:14 ◼   ► But, man, that show, not only does it hold up,

00:05:19 ◼   ► and not only is it great,

00:05:20 ◼   ► and it has a whole bunch of famous people in it

00:05:22 ◼   ► that weren't that famous at the time,

00:05:24 ◼   ► so you get to see them when they're super young.

00:05:25 ◼   ► You get a 16-year-old Seth Rogen, it's pretty cool.

00:05:29 ◼   ► But, man, that show is painful to watch.

00:05:32 ◼   ► If you were a nerd growing up, as we all were,

00:05:37 ◼   ► wow, there is some deep pain when watching that show.

00:05:42 ◼   ► - Sounds great.

00:05:43 ◼   ► - I mean, everybody watching that show

00:05:45 ◼   ► is gonna look at these three characters

00:05:45 ◼   ► and be like, well, that's us.

00:05:46 ◼   ► That's like, obviously it's me and you guys. (laughing)

00:05:49 ◼   ► - Which character do you think you are, Mark?

00:05:51 ◼   ► 'Cause I can tell you which one I was, more or less.

00:05:53 ◼   ► - I mean, I think everybody would say you were Bill.

00:05:56 ◼   ► The only thing is I'm unclear

00:05:58 ◼   ► whether I would be Sam or Neil.

00:06:00 ◼   ► I definitely have some overlap with each of them,

00:06:04 ◼   ► so I'm not sure.

00:06:05 ◼   ► - The problem with Sam is he does get together

00:06:08 ◼   ► with an unrealistically more attractive girl

00:06:10 ◼   ► for a plot point in the season.

00:06:12 ◼   ► - Right, and that sure as hell

00:06:13 ◼   ► was not gonna happen to me in high school.

00:06:14 ◼   ► - Exactly, I mean, it works in the show

00:06:17 ◼   ► because of how that turns out,

00:06:18 ◼   ► but practically speaking, not gonna happen.

00:06:22 ◼   ► - Right, so that's why I think I'd be,

00:06:25 ◼   ► realistically, I'm probably more Neil.

00:06:27 ◼   ► - Yeah, my rewatch, since it's not gonna be in the episode,

00:06:30 ◼   ► I'll give you my tiny capsule summary.

00:06:31 ◼   ► The only thing that really changed from my first watch,

00:06:33 ◼   ► I watched it when it actually aired, 'cause I'm old,

00:06:36 ◼   ► the only change from my rewatch is I felt like

00:06:39 ◼   ► the main character, Lindsey, what's her other name?

00:06:42 ◼   ► - The main character's motivation was not well sketched out,

00:06:45 ◼   ► and it's not the fault of the actor,

00:06:47 ◼   ► it's mostly the fault of the script.

00:06:48 ◼   ► I know the arc that they wanted her to go on,

00:06:51 ◼   ► but a lot of the time, she just seemed to be

00:06:53 ◼   ► going through the paces of the script because she had to,

00:06:56 ◼   ► and her motivations were not clearly outlined,

00:06:58 ◼   ► but other than that, everything was great.

00:07:00 ◼   ► - I never once looked at it that way. (laughs)

00:07:03 ◼   ► - Well, I mean, it depends on who you're identifying with

00:07:05 ◼   ► in the show, but if you're identifying mostly

00:07:07 ◼   ► with her little brother and their friends,

00:07:09 ◼   ► then maybe you don't care about that,

00:07:10 ◼   ► but she really is the heart of the show,

00:07:12 ◼   ► and the problem is a lot of her,

00:07:13 ◼   ► like what she does, it's not unmotivated,

00:07:15 ◼   ► like the show says things in it,

00:07:18 ◼   ► like here's why she's doing this,

00:07:19 ◼   ► but it's never really on the screen,

00:07:21 ◼   ► it's just like they'll drop a hint on it here or there,

00:07:23 ◼   ► and then she'll just act under the influence

00:07:25 ◼   ► of that one hint for three episodes.

00:07:26 ◼   ► It's like, what are you really trying to do, Lindsey?

00:07:29 ◼   ► I don't, it's not, she just felt a little bit

00:07:31 ◼   ► like a leaf in the wind.

00:07:33 ◼   ► - Watch how I soar, that's a reference.

00:07:36 ◼   ► Just letting you know. - Yeah, but I was doing

00:07:37 ◼   ► the Forrest Gump thing, I guess it was just that feather.

00:07:39 ◼   ► (electronic beeping)

00:07:41 ◼   ► All right, we have a lot to do,

00:07:42 ◼   ► we should stop goofing off,

00:07:43 ◼   ► and let's start with some follow-up.

00:07:45 ◼   ► It is back because it's not keynote week.

00:07:48 ◼   ► All right, so let's talk about universal control

00:07:50 ◼   ► and device arrangement.

00:07:51 ◼   ► A lot of us were wondering,

00:07:53 ◼   ► when you do this universal control thing,

00:07:55 ◼   ► which is like Synergy was/is,

00:07:58 ◼   ► where you have one keyboard and mouse

00:08:00 ◼   ► attached to one computer,

00:08:02 ◼   ► but it's controlling multiple computers,

00:08:04 ◼   ► then how does it know, if, say you have an iPad and an iMac,

00:08:08 ◼   ► which side is the iPad on?

00:08:10 ◼   ► And I think this was actually discussed in the talk show,

00:08:13 ◼   ► if I'm not mistaken, but we also got feedback

00:08:15 ◼   ► via Andreas Baier-Boudin, who apparently saw

00:08:18 ◼   ► or received an email from Federighi,

00:08:21 ◼   ► which reads, this is Federighi's words,

00:08:23 ◼   ► "When you move to an edge, we default to assuming

00:08:25 ◼   ► you are moving to the most recently active device

00:08:27 ◼   ► that is nearby and not yet quote-unquote paired."

00:08:29 ◼   ► So if you turn your iPad and put it next,

00:08:31 ◼   ► turn on your iPad, excuse me, and put it next to the Mac,

00:08:34 ◼   ► and then move the cursor, as I did in the demo,

00:08:37 ◼   ► we will assume that you were attempting to access that iPad

00:08:39 ◼   ► versus, say, another Mac that you had not interacted with

00:08:42 ◼   ► as recently, and once you're quote-unquote connected,

00:08:45 ◼   ► we remember that arrangement.

00:08:46 ◼   ► There is, of course, also a displays arrangement,

00:08:47 ◼   ► system preferences pane, but we've designed the features

00:08:50 ◼   ► such that using these sorts of settings

00:08:51 ◼   ► should generally not be necessary.

00:08:53 ◼   ► This is, if it works, and I haven't tried it,

00:08:56 ◼   ► this is Apple at its best, when it's using

00:08:59 ◼   ► like some really smart inference, maybe,

00:09:02 ◼   ► I'm not sure what word I'm looking for,

00:09:04 ◼   ► but it's using evidence based on circumstance

00:09:07 ◼   ► to figure out what you want before,

00:09:09 ◼   ► or without you having to explicitly tell them,

00:09:12 ◼   ► and I think that's super cool, and if it works well,

00:09:14 ◼   ► it's going to be very impressive.

00:09:16 ◼   ► - It's like a magic trick where once you hear how it's done,

00:09:18 ◼   ► you're like, "Oh, that is clever,

00:09:21 ◼   ► but that's not as complicated as I thought it would be."

00:09:23 ◼   ► Like, they're essentially letting you, the user,

00:09:25 ◼   ► tell them where things are.

00:09:26 ◼   ► Now, it's not perfect because if you do that,

00:09:29 ◼   ► first of all, once you know how the trick is done,

00:09:32 ◼   ► it's trivially easy to confuse it,

00:09:34 ◼   ► but second of all, you're basically just picking

00:09:36 ◼   ► whether the computer is left, right,

00:09:38 ◼   ► or maybe even up or down from where you are,

00:09:40 ◼   ► but you're not really picking the exact height

00:09:42 ◼   ► that the screen's joining to host,

00:09:43 ◼   ► so you're gonna kinda get the default.

00:09:45 ◼   ► I don't have enough systems running this new stuff

00:09:47 ◼   ► to do this, but I'm interested to see,

00:09:49 ◼   ► so once you do that, it shows up as a display,

00:09:52 ◼   ► like in the displays panel,

00:09:54 ◼   ► and then you could arrange them after that.

00:09:56 ◼   ► It's not entirely clear to me

00:09:57 ◼   ► 'cause I haven't seen this demoed,

00:09:58 ◼   ► but anyway, the magic trick of how they do this

00:10:00 ◼   ► is very clever, and it's like, it makes for a good demo,

00:10:04 ◼   ► and in practice, it will sort of magically just work

00:10:07 ◼   ► for people who don't know how it works,

00:10:09 ◼   ► and it'll be super impressive,

00:10:11 ◼   ► and I suppose there are a couple of failure modes

00:10:13 ◼   ► where it'll get messed up,

00:10:14 ◼   ► as long as there's a place where you can go to like,

00:10:16 ◼   ► oh, arrange it the way you want,

00:10:17 ◼   ► like the displays panel, like Federico says,

00:10:20 ◼   ► this is very clever, very interesting.

00:10:22 ◼   ► - Additionally, some information about initiation

00:10:25 ◼   ► from friend of the show, Federico Petici.

00:10:27 ◼   ► A universal control can only be started

00:10:29 ◼   ► from a Mac running Monterey.

00:10:31 ◼   ► You cannot start dragging the pointer

00:10:32 ◼   ► from an iPad towards a Mac.

00:10:35 ◼   ► It only originates from Mac OS,

00:10:36 ◼   ► and then you can move it around freely after that.

00:10:39 ◼   ► - This falls into the same category

00:10:40 ◼   ► as my snarky tweet during the WWZ keynote,

00:10:43 ◼   ► which is get an iPad.

00:10:44 ◼   ► It's a great accessory for your real computer.

00:10:46 ◼   ► - Oh, brutal. - 'Cause like,

00:10:47 ◼   ► 'cause everything in the keynote was like,

00:10:51 ◼   ► from your Mac, here's what,

00:10:52 ◼   ► like the iPad can help your Mac out in various ways, right?

00:10:57 ◼   ► But it was so clear that the Mac was like in charge,

00:10:59 ◼   ► and even in universal control.

00:11:00 ◼   ► If you're on your Mac,

00:11:01 ◼   ► yeah, you can bring your cursor over to your iPad,

00:11:03 ◼   ► but you can't take that stinkin' iPad cursor

00:11:05 ◼   ► and bring it over to your Mac.

00:11:06 ◼   ► Anyway, maybe this'll change one day,

00:11:08 ◼   ► and that's mostly just snark,

00:11:09 ◼   ► 'cause obviously iPads are incredibly powerful and amazing,

00:11:12 ◼   ► and I love them, but it was a change from the norm

00:11:15 ◼   ► to see kind of the Mac taking center stage,

00:11:18 ◼   ► and we talked about that in the last episode,

00:11:20 ◼   ► but I think it's worth reemphasizing

00:11:22 ◼   ► the sort of unspoken theme of the keynote,

00:11:25 ◼   ► which is that features now come across

00:11:28 ◼   ► all of Apple's platforms,

00:11:29 ◼   ► because all of the barriers to stopping that from happening

00:11:31 ◼   ► have been knocked down one at a time, right?

00:11:34 ◼   ► It's the same chip architecture,

00:11:35 ◼   ► it's the same framework, SwiftUI,

00:11:37 ◼   ► like we have the catalyst to bring UIKit onto the Mac,

00:11:40 ◼   ► and so all of Apple's resources towards like,

00:11:44 ◼   ► we're gonna do a new thing,

00:11:45 ◼   ► now they can essentially do a new thing,

00:11:47 ◼   ► whatever that new thing is,

00:11:48 ◼   ► once optimize it for their own chips,

00:11:52 ◼   ► write it in a framework that they know

00:11:53 ◼   ► runs on all their platforms,

00:11:55 ◼   ► within reason, obviously,

00:11:56 ◼   ► you're not gonna write something that runs on,

00:11:58 ◼   ► oh, maybe on the watch too,

00:11:59 ◼   ► 'cause it takes SwiftUI as well,

00:12:00 ◼   ► but anyway, they can literally do one thing

00:12:03 ◼   ► and have it everywhere,

00:12:04 ◼   ► so almost all the features that rolled out

00:12:07 ◼   ► as part of WWDC are on all the platforms,

00:12:11 ◼   ► and that hasn't happened in a very long time.

00:12:13 ◼   ► Granted, there's varying degrees of jankiness,

00:12:16 ◼   ► depending on how mature,

00:12:18 ◼   ► whatever it is that you're doing,

00:12:19 ◼   ► is it a catalyst app, is it a SwiftUI app,

00:12:21 ◼   ► both of those things have limitations

00:12:22 ◼   ► versus a pure AppKit app on the Mac,

00:12:24 ◼   ► but it gets, at least this year,

00:12:28 ◼   ► we're not like, oh, well, this feature

00:12:30 ◼   ► is available here and here,

00:12:31 ◼   ► but either the Mac doesn't have it at all,

00:12:34 ◼   ► or the Mac has a worse version of it.

00:12:35 ◼   ► In general, if they're rolling out something new,

00:12:38 ◼   ► it is available and the same everywhere,

00:12:41 ◼   ► which is refreshing and a big payoff

00:12:42 ◼   ► from the many years of transition

00:12:44 ◼   ► that Apple's been going through.

00:12:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I'm sure there are examples

00:12:47 ◼   ► of that not being true,

00:12:48 ◼   ► like Center Stage is a great example

00:12:50 ◼   ► of that not being true,

00:12:50 ◼   ► which actually, quick aside,

00:12:52 ◼   ► I had a FaceTime call with somebody with a new iPad

00:12:54 ◼   ► that was using Center Stage,

00:12:56 ◼   ► and holy smokes, that's super cool,

00:12:58 ◼   ► even on the quote-unquote receiving end,

00:12:59 ◼   ► you know, on the viewing end,

00:13:01 ◼   ► it was super cool because as the friend of mine

00:13:04 ◼   ► that I was speaking with was like walking around

00:13:06 ◼   ► a little bit or, you know, gesturing with his arms,

00:13:09 ◼   ► it would zoom in or zoom out or pan or what have you

00:13:12 ◼   ► in order to keep what was relevant in focus,

00:13:15 ◼   ► it was super duper neat,

00:13:16 ◼   ► and whenever it is I get around to upgrading my iPad,

00:13:19 ◼   ► which I'm not planning on doing as I sit here now,

00:13:21 ◼   ► I'm really looking forward to having that,

00:13:23 ◼   ► 'cause is that on both sides iPads, is that correct,

00:13:25 ◼   ► or is that only on the big boy?

00:13:26 ◼   ► - No, it's on both. - Okay, good.

00:13:27 ◼   ► Did it look like unnatural when it would do the movements

00:13:30 ◼   ► or was it kinda subtle and smooth?

00:13:32 ◼   ► - It looked unnatural insofar as it was something

00:13:35 ◼   ► you don't expect to happen on a FaceTime call,

00:13:37 ◼   ► but it did not look unnatural insofar as like it zooming

00:13:39 ◼   ► at twice the speed you would expect

00:13:41 ◼   ► or that it's, you know, like whipping to the side

00:13:43 ◼   ► and then stopping short.

00:13:44 ◼   ► It was very gradual, very appley,

00:13:47 ◼   ► and it was not, it wasn't distracting as a movement,

00:13:51 ◼   ► it was distracting as a holy crap,

00:13:53 ◼   ► I understand all the work that's going in

00:13:55 ◼   ► to make this work and this is amazing.

00:13:57 ◼   ► So it was very cool.

00:13:59 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's weird that some of the remaining differences

00:14:01 ◼   ► almost sort of come down to hardware,

00:14:03 ◼   ► like why don't the Macs have FaceTime,

00:14:05 ◼   ► why are the Mac cameras so much worse,

00:14:07 ◼   ► or even just with center stage,

00:14:08 ◼   ► like why is that on these iPads and on other ones,

00:14:10 ◼   ► like what is it that the center stage requires,

00:14:12 ◼   ► and we'll get to that later in the topic section

00:14:13 ◼   ► about what features require what things.

00:14:16 ◼   ► But there is still a remaining hardware gap,

00:14:18 ◼   ► but in general, like in terms of major applications

00:14:21 ◼   ► or even major features,

00:14:23 ◼   ► one example I think is like focus,

00:14:25 ◼   ► that's on the Mac too, right?

00:14:27 ◼   ► - Which one is, oh, the do not disturb on steroids,

00:14:30 ◼   ► yes, yes, yes, yes, I believe that's on the Mac.

00:14:32 ◼   ► - There's no way that that would have been on the Mac

00:14:34 ◼   ► if it came out like three years ago,

00:14:36 ◼   ► just no way, because it is so obviously phone-centric,

00:14:38 ◼   ► but now it's like, why not put it on the Mac?

00:14:41 ◼   ► Because we can write it essentially once

00:14:44 ◼   ► in one of our cross-platform frameworks,

00:14:48 ◼   ► and it makes sense to be on the Mac,

00:14:49 ◼   ► and it's actually not that much more work,

00:14:51 ◼   ► so let's go do it, right?

00:14:52 ◼   ► And even last year when the iPhone got widgets

00:14:57 ◼   ► but the iPad didn't, it's like, well, what's the excuse there?

00:15:00 ◼   ► Those are practically the same platform,

00:15:01 ◼   ► even though you renamed one of them iPad OS,

00:15:03 ◼   ► like it used to be just iOS,

00:15:05 ◼   ► why didn't the iPad get it there?

00:15:06 ◼   ► And that was kind of, it seemed like tied up

00:15:07 ◼   ► in the iPad multitasking stuff,

00:15:09 ◼   ► where that whole suite of things wasn't ready

00:15:12 ◼   ► and they didn't just wanna ship,

00:15:15 ◼   ► just widgets on the iPad or whatever.

00:15:16 ◼   ► So there's always like, how are things prioritized,

00:15:19 ◼   ► how many resources do you have,

00:15:20 ◼   ► and what can you hold till last year?

00:15:22 ◼   ► But in general, technology-wise,

00:15:23 ◼   ► we're finally getting to a place where

00:15:25 ◼   ► the reason why something might not be

00:15:27 ◼   ► on a less popular platform is no longer that,

00:15:29 ◼   ► oh, we'd have to write an entirely new app

00:15:32 ◼   ► using AppKit if we want that on the Mac.

00:15:35 ◼   ► So that's too much effort, nevermind.

00:15:37 ◼   ► - All right, let's talk about object capture

00:15:41 ◼   ► and the quality thereof.

00:15:42 ◼   ► Object capture's the thing where you take

00:15:43 ◼   ► a zillion pictures of a 3D object

00:15:45 ◼   ► and then do magic and mathematics,

00:15:48 ◼   ► and then suddenly you get a 3D model

00:15:50 ◼   ► coming out the other side.

00:15:52 ◼   ► Somebody anonymous, because they've since deleted

00:15:54 ◼   ► their tweet and I don't know if they're trying

00:15:56 ◼   ► to remain anonymous, writes, "I worked in motion production,

00:15:59 ◼   ► "live action and animation, and while this certainly

00:16:02 ◼   ► "isn't ready for final production quality,

00:16:04 ◼   ► "the ability to quickly mock up a quote,

00:16:06 ◼   ► "good enough quote concept is actually quite valuable."

00:16:09 ◼   ► So even if this isn't a perfect representation,

00:16:12 ◼   ► it's still useful to have,

00:16:13 ◼   ► and that's not particularly surprising to me.

00:16:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, since seeing Apple's demos and the sessions on it

00:16:18 ◼   ► and all that other stuff, lots of just users,

00:16:21 ◼   ► individual people have been posting their experiments

00:16:24 ◼   ► with using this feature, and I have to say,

00:16:27 ◼   ► everyone that I've seen is way more impressive

00:16:29 ◼   ► than Apple's demos, which is weird.

00:16:30 ◼   ► Usually Apple picks very good demos

00:16:32 ◼   ► to show off their feature, so we'll put some links

00:16:34 ◼   ► in the show notes.

00:16:35 ◼   ► Matt Waller did a scan of a plush baby Yoda toy,

00:16:40 ◼   ► and the object capture of it looks amazing,

00:16:44 ◼   ► 'cause it's a challenging shape.

00:16:45 ◼   ► It's not, you know, it's fuzzy and it's got weird,

00:16:47 ◼   ► pointy things with the ears and the clothes and everything.

00:16:50 ◼   ► It looks amazing, and someone else posted a pineapple.

00:16:52 ◼   ► You know what a whole pineapple looks like,

00:16:54 ◼   ► with those little pointy little tendrils

00:16:55 ◼   ► that come out the sides, and did an object capture of that,

00:16:58 ◼   ► and it looks fantastic.

00:16:59 ◼   ► Like you wouldn't, you'd think it would just melt

00:17:01 ◼   ► all the little things together, and it would just look

00:17:03 ◼   ► like a flat football with a pineapple texture on it.

00:17:06 ◼   ► It doesn't.

00:17:07 ◼   ► So yeah, obviously these things will need to be touched up,

00:17:09 ◼   ► but the more examples of this that I've seen,

00:17:11 ◼   ► the more impressed I am at how good you can get with this.

00:17:15 ◼   ► Now, back to Marco's point of like,

00:17:17 ◼   ► oh, this would be cool to share an object with somebody,

00:17:19 ◼   ► it seems like you just have to take too many pictures

00:17:22 ◼   ► for that to be feasible.

00:17:23 ◼   ► Like you have to take a lot of pictures,

00:17:25 ◼   ► and there has to be a huge amount of overlap,

00:17:26 ◼   ► so you have to like, take a picture and then move

00:17:28 ◼   ► like a little tiny bit, and take a picture,

00:17:30 ◼   ► move it a little bit, and take a picture,

00:17:31 ◼   ► and your pictures have to have like 70% overlap

00:17:33 ◼   ► between them, so I don't think you're gonna want to

00:17:37 ◼   ► spend five minutes slowly walking in a circle

00:17:39 ◼   ► around some object just to send it to someone

00:17:41 ◼   ► in a message thing.

00:17:42 ◼   ► If you could take one or two pictures and send something,

00:17:45 ◼   ► that might be conceivable.

00:17:46 ◼   ► For now, I think it is basically, you know,

00:17:48 ◼   ► amazing results if you're willing to put in the time

00:17:51 ◼   ► from hardware that everybody has,

00:17:52 ◼   ► so it is lowering the barrier to entry,

00:17:53 ◼   ► but it is not to the point where you can take two photos

00:17:56 ◼   ► of, you know, a couch that you're looking at,

00:17:58 ◼   ► and then have, give someone a 3D model they can spin.

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00:19:54 ◼   ► - Did you know that in Mac OS Monterey,

00:20:00 ◼   ► the, what is it, live text, the OCR thing

00:20:03 ◼   ► that they're doing now, it works on captchas too,

00:20:06 ◼   ► because why wouldn't it, which is super neat.

00:20:08 ◼   ► - That's fantastic.

00:20:09 ◼   ► - I mean, to be fair, we'll put a link to someone's video,

00:20:12 ◼   ► like the captcha they're doing is not one of those

00:20:13 ◼   ► challenging ones, but lots of people are posting

00:20:16 ◼   ► impressive results of like, oh, live text,

00:20:18 ◼   ► like pulled text off of my laptop screen

00:20:20 ◼   ► that's viewed at this incredibly oblique angle.

00:20:23 ◼   ► In general, humans are impressed when computers

00:20:26 ◼   ► can do things that would be difficult for humans to do,

00:20:28 ◼   ► but very often they're not difficult for computers to do

00:20:30 ◼   ► because, you know, they're just,

00:20:32 ◼   ► the strengths and weaknesses are different.

00:20:33 ◼   ► But yeah, live text looks pretty good,

00:20:35 ◼   ► and it's impressive where it's able to pull text out of.

00:20:40 ◼   ► - Indeed.

00:20:41 ◼   ► I have good news, which I did not even look into myself,

00:20:45 ◼   ► to be honest with you, but Jason Aiten writes

00:20:47 ◼   ► that the app library in the dock is optional on iPad OS,

00:20:51 ◼   ► though according to Jason,

00:20:52 ◼   ► there's no good reason to turn it off.

00:20:53 ◼   ► I actually have left it on so far, and it hasn't bothered me,

00:20:56 ◼   ► but I've barely used my iPad since putting the beta on it.

00:21:00 ◼   ► So, you know, take that for what you will.

00:21:03 ◼   ► - Yep, the setting is right next to the other one

00:21:04 ◼   ► that I turned off, which is show suggested

00:21:06 ◼   ► and recent apps in the dock.

00:21:08 ◼   ► - I'm not surprised that you turned that off.

00:21:11 ◼   ► All right, John, I know that the world was shocked,

00:21:16 ◼   ► devastated even, when they saw the new Safari toolbar

00:21:20 ◼   ► and realized everyone's favorite Safari extension

00:21:24 ◼   ► may not belong for this world.

00:21:26 ◼   ► Please tell me, please, John,

00:21:28 ◼   ► tell me the reload button like a phoenix rises

00:21:30 ◼   ► from the ashes to live again.

00:21:32 ◼   ► - Yeah, and last episode I thought like,

00:21:34 ◼   ► well, there is no more toolbar.

00:21:35 ◼   ► It's just like, 'cause they put the tabs up there, right,

00:21:37 ◼   ► in Safari 15.

00:21:39 ◼   ► There's the tabs and there's some fixed buttons,

00:21:41 ◼   ► and that seemed like that was it.

00:21:42 ◼   ► And I'm talking about on the Mac right now,

00:21:44 ◼   ► not on the phone and not on the iPad.

00:21:46 ◼   ► I was like, well, there's, you know,

00:21:48 ◼   ► so much for my reload button, right?

00:21:49 ◼   ► And the absurd thing about it was that there,

00:21:52 ◼   ► it doesn't appear to be any reload button.

00:21:55 ◼   ► The only place you had reload was like in the address bar,

00:21:57 ◼   ► there was a little dot, dot, dot on the far right.

00:21:59 ◼   ► And if you clicked on the dot, dot, dot,

00:22:01 ◼   ► a menu would pop up, and then you could select

00:22:03 ◼   ► the word reload from that menu.

00:22:06 ◼   ► And I saw this in WWDC sessions.

00:22:07 ◼   ► So you'd be watching a session,

00:22:09 ◼   ► and the person in the session would have to reload

00:22:10 ◼   ► a webpage, and to make it clear,

00:22:12 ◼   ► like 'cause it's a video, you don't,

00:22:14 ◼   ► if they just hit Command + R, it wouldn't be clear

00:22:16 ◼   ► to the viewer what they're doing.

00:22:16 ◼   ► So you have to do something visually on the screen

00:22:19 ◼   ► to show that they're reloading.

00:22:20 ◼   ► And so in one of these, it was one of the Safari videos,

00:22:23 ◼   ► like this person, the presenter had to reload a webpage

00:22:25 ◼   ► multiple times to show changes,

00:22:27 ◼   ► and every time they did it, they had to click

00:22:29 ◼   ► on the three dots, move the mouse down, click reload,

00:22:31 ◼   ► click on the three dots, move the mouse down, click reload.

00:22:33 ◼   ► And it was so painful to watch.

00:22:34 ◼   ► I was like, oh, goodness.

00:22:35 ◼   ► We really need to have an always visible reload button.

00:22:37 ◼   ► So of course I installed Monterey on one of my,

00:22:41 ◼   ► actually I installed an external hard drive computer

00:22:42 ◼   ► from that, 'cause I didn't wanna screw up one of my computers

00:22:44 ◼   ► 'cause all the computers in the houses are still used,

00:22:46 ◼   ► at least until my kids get out of school.

00:22:48 ◼   ► And so what the deal was.

00:22:50 ◼   ► So first of all, there is still a customizable toolbar.

00:22:53 ◼   ► You can custom, and now you're fighting with the tabs

00:22:56 ◼   ► for space, but you can in fact customize the part

00:22:59 ◼   ► to the left of the tabs and shove as much stuff up there

00:23:01 ◼   ► as you want, stealing space from your tabs.

00:23:04 ◼   ► When you do the customized toolbar thing,

00:23:06 ◼   ► and the sheet comes down, reload is not among those choices.

00:23:09 ◼   ► So you don't have a choice to put a reload button

00:23:11 ◼   ► in your toolbar.

00:23:12 ◼   ► And there also is, the reload button that is currently

00:23:15 ◼   ► in the address bar in Safari, that's also not there.

00:23:17 ◼   ► All you get is the three dots from which a menu spawns

00:23:20 ◼   ► and you can click reload.

00:23:21 ◼   ► The good news is that my Safari reload button extension

00:23:24 ◼   ► still works.

00:23:26 ◼   ► You can run it on Monterey.

00:23:27 ◼   ► It runs just fine.

00:23:28 ◼   ► I didn't even need to recompile it or anything.

00:23:30 ◼   ► It just works as is.

00:23:32 ◼   ► And then you can put a reload button up there.

00:23:33 ◼   ► The bad news is, presumably in order to save space,

00:23:37 ◼   ► like I understand why they did this,

00:23:39 ◼   ► because again, the toolbar is now fighting for space

00:23:41 ◼   ► with the tabs because they're all in the same line.

00:23:44 ◼   ► They changed the back forward buttons to be quote unquote

00:23:48 ◼   ► smart so that there is no forward button

00:23:53 ◼   ► until you've gone back.

00:23:54 ◼   ► So instead of it being a back forward,

00:23:55 ◼   ► like a less than and a greater than sign,

00:23:57 ◼   ► it's just a less than sign.

00:23:59 ◼   ► And then if you ever go back, suddenly the greater than sign

00:24:02 ◼   ► appears next to it because now you have a place

00:24:04 ◼   ► to go forward to.

00:24:05 ◼   ► Which means that the back forward button,

00:24:07 ◼   ► which used to be a pair of things,

00:24:09 ◼   ► now changes size depending on if you have some place

00:24:12 ◼   ► to go forward to, which makes everything move around.

00:24:14 ◼   ► Like I understand why they did it to save space,

00:24:15 ◼   ► but it just looks not great to me.

00:24:18 ◼   ► I don't like when things squirm around,

00:24:19 ◼   ► as established in the past show

00:24:21 ◼   ► with the squirmy super rectangles.

00:24:23 ◼   ► And I don't like it when buttons change size

00:24:26 ◼   ► in the toolbar.

00:24:27 ◼   ► And I just don't think it looks unbalanced.

00:24:28 ◼   ► And the other thing that's, this is a minor point,

00:24:30 ◼   ► but when you do, when you put a button on the toolbar,

00:24:34 ◼   ► in current Safari or in Safari 15,

00:24:36 ◼   ► they make you supply like an image for the button.

00:24:39 ◼   ► And there's a limited number of formats you can make it,

00:24:42 ◼   ► but every format that I have tried,

00:24:44 ◼   ► every way I've tried to make this image,

00:24:46 ◼   ► it basically uses it as a template image.

00:24:49 ◼   ► And you don't have control over how it positions

00:24:52 ◼   ► the thing vertically.

00:24:52 ◼   ► I tried putting empty space above and below

00:24:54 ◼   ► to like move the thing around.

00:24:56 ◼   ► And it just is, it's like, nope,

00:24:57 ◼   ► I'm going to find the edges of the blackness

00:25:00 ◼   ► in your monochrome picture.

00:25:01 ◼   ► And that's what I'm gonna consider your border to be.

00:25:03 ◼   ► And that's a concern to me because

00:25:05 ◼   ► when the lonely left hand, the lonely less than sign

00:25:08 ◼   ► is next to my reload button,

00:25:10 ◼   ► the reload button, if you know what it looks like,

00:25:13 ◼   ► it's like a circle, an incomplete circle,

00:25:16 ◼   ► but then there's an arrow on one end of it.

00:25:18 ◼   ► And the arrow sticks out beyond,

00:25:20 ◼   ► the top part of the arrow sticks out beyond

00:25:23 ◼   ► the diameter of the circle, right?

00:25:26 ◼   ► So what you'd want, visually speaking,

00:25:28 ◼   ► is the center of the circle to be aligned

00:25:31 ◼   ► with the point in the less than sign.

00:25:32 ◼   ► You know what I'm saying?

00:25:34 ◼   ► But that's not how it works

00:25:35 ◼   ► because as far as Safari is concerned,

00:25:37 ◼   ► the height of that graphic is not the height of the circle,

00:25:40 ◼   ► but it's the height of the circle

00:25:41 ◼   ► plus that little stem that sticks out.

00:25:42 ◼   ► So it shifts the whole thing down.

00:25:43 ◼   ► So when I just see that less than sign

00:25:45 ◼   ► and then my reload button shifted down

00:25:47 ◼   ► to be slightly below the less than sign,

00:25:48 ◼   ► that's very upsetting.

00:25:49 ◼   ► - Oh no.

00:25:51 ◼   ► - Anyway, I'm still glad to have a reload button.

00:25:53 ◼   ► You know, and I'm living with it, but I'm still,

00:25:56 ◼   ► I spent a long time rebuilding that application

00:25:59 ◼   ► with differently sized and shaped buttons to try.

00:26:01 ◼   ► The only way I can get it to work

00:26:02 ◼   ► is to have a non-transparent background

00:26:05 ◼   ► 'cause then it thinks my image is the size of my image.

00:26:07 ◼   ► But of course, if you have a non-transparent background,

00:26:08 ◼   ► it looks awful, right?

00:26:10 ◼   ► - So I'm sorry, can we play this back?

00:26:12 ◼   ► The same man who has superhuman hearing

00:26:16 ◼   ► when it comes to extraordinarily small and quiet fans

00:26:21 ◼   ► and will do anything to get fans out of his house

00:26:24 ◼   ► is the same person who can't just hit Command + R

00:26:28 ◼   ► to reload a tab and must have an offset icon

00:26:33 ◼   ► on the toolbar.

00:26:34 ◼   ► - Don't make me tap the sign, Casey.

00:26:36 ◼   ► Yes, I know Command + R exists.

00:26:37 ◼   ► I tried to preempt that in my tweet about it.

00:26:39 ◼   ► I have to put it in the same tweet

00:26:41 ◼   ► 'cause if you put it in a follow-up tweet,

00:26:42 ◼   ► no one will ever see it.

00:26:43 ◼   ► - That's true. - Yes, yes.

00:26:44 ◼   ► I know Command + R exists.

00:26:45 ◼   ► Sometimes I'm using the mouse.

00:26:47 ◼   ► Sometimes the mouse is near there.

00:26:48 ◼   ► Sometimes I like to click on mouse buttons.

00:26:50 ◼   ► Like the GUI exists in addition to,

00:26:51 ◼   ► yes, I know about Command + R.

00:26:53 ◼   ► I absolutely know about it and I do use it.

00:26:55 ◼   ► But sometimes I also click the button.

00:26:57 ◼   ► - I mean, in and of itself, that's fine.

00:26:59 ◼   ► I'm flabbergasted that someone who is as particular as you

00:27:04 ◼   ► would be able to look at this all day, every day,

00:27:08 ◼   ► look at this offset icon and not be driven mad, whereas--

00:27:12 ◼   ► - I mean, it was offset in the previous version

00:27:13 ◼   ► of Safari 2.

00:27:14 ◼   ► It's emphasized more due to the tighter spacing

00:27:18 ◼   ► and I think the smaller or less than sign,

00:27:20 ◼   ► so it looks a little bit worse.

00:27:21 ◼   ► The same problem existed before.

00:27:22 ◼   ► This is not a new thing.

00:27:24 ◼   ► - Well, the good news is if you wanna go back

00:27:25 ◼   ► to the old style tab bar, there's a way to do that.

00:27:28 ◼   ► - Yes, someone discovered this feature flags

00:27:32 ◼   ► plist somewhere in the OS.

00:27:34 ◼   ► And I put the XML for it in the show notes

00:27:37 ◼   ► to see what the keys are.

00:27:39 ◼   ► So the key is unified bar.

00:27:40 ◼   ► It's in the library preferences, feature flags,

00:27:43 ◼   ► domains, safari.plist.

00:27:44 ◼   ► I'm presuming this is like a temporary thing

00:27:46 ◼   ► for Apple messing with feature flags.

00:27:47 ◼   ► And the reason I say that is because unified bar is the key

00:27:50 ◼   ► and then the value is a dictionary

00:27:52 ◼   ► and some of the keys of the value dictionary,

00:27:55 ◼   ► one of them is called disclosure required.

00:27:57 ◼   ► And then there's a string that looks like UUID.

00:28:00 ◼   ► And that makes me think that the way they do feature flags

00:28:03 ◼   ► for people don't know, the parlance inside Apple

00:28:07 ◼   ► about whether you as an Apple employer

00:28:09 ◼   ► are allowed to know about a thing

00:28:10 ◼   ► is are you disclosed on that thing, right?

00:28:12 ◼   ► So a lot, you know, it's like an Apple.

00:28:13 ◼   ► If you're not working on Safari,

00:28:15 ◼   ► you wouldn't be disclosed on the new Safari.

00:28:18 ◼   ► So there'd be no reason for you to know

00:28:19 ◼   ► about the new Safari.

00:28:20 ◼   ► And in your builds of Monterey,

00:28:22 ◼   ► if this disclosure required field

00:28:24 ◼   ► didn't have the special UUID in it,

00:28:27 ◼   ► it wouldn't show up on your version of Monterey

00:28:29 ◼   ► or wouldn't be enabled on your version of Monterey.

00:28:31 ◼   ► And they, I presume they trust their employees

00:28:33 ◼   ► not to hack in and try to figure out, you know,

00:28:35 ◼   ► what resources are new in Safari or whatever.

00:28:37 ◼   ► This is my guess.

00:28:38 ◼   ► I don't know any of this for a fact

00:28:39 ◼   ► about this is what it's for,

00:28:40 ◼   ► but the fact that there's a disclosure required field

00:28:43 ◼   ► with a string that looks like UUID

00:28:44 ◼   ► makes me think this is part of how they control

00:28:47 ◼   ► showing new features in Safari

00:28:50 ◼   ► to other people inside Apple.

00:28:52 ◼   ► Obviously it's not controlling anything for us,

00:28:53 ◼   ► but what it means is that you can disable this feature

00:28:56 ◼   ► and go back to the old one

00:28:58 ◼   ► just because they still had that code in there

00:28:59 ◼   ► maybe for the non-disclosed people for awhile.

00:29:01 ◼   ► I presume that will eventually go away.

00:29:03 ◼   ► Maybe it will go away before release.

00:29:04 ◼   ► But if you really, really don't like the new Safari

00:29:07 ◼   ► and you're using a beta,

00:29:08 ◼   ► you have a way to turn it off for now.

00:29:10 ◼   ► Just keep in mind that kind of like

00:29:12 ◼   ► every Chrome flags feature

00:29:13 ◼   ► that I used to rely on,

00:29:14 ◼   ► it will eventually disappear

00:29:15 ◼   ► and you'll be forced to use the new thing.

00:29:17 ◼   ► Yep.

00:29:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, but you know what?

00:29:19 ◼   ► Like I feel like, you know,

00:29:20 ◼   ► like on principle of that,

00:29:22 ◼   ► like there are certain things that Apple adds

00:29:24 ◼   ► where they make some change that I don't like,

00:29:28 ◼   ► but the old behavior is still available

00:29:29 ◼   ► through either a checkbox preference somewhere

00:29:32 ◼   ► or some kind of, you know,

00:29:33 ◼   ► P list hack like this.

00:29:35 ◼   ► Or you know, a default write command or something like that.

00:29:37 ◼   ► And I used to think like,

00:29:39 ◼   ► well I might as well adopt the new thing immediately

00:29:42 ◼   ► because one day they're gonna remove this ability

00:29:44 ◼   ► to use it the old way.

00:29:46 ◼   ► And I might as well adjust on my terms now

00:29:49 ◼   ► rather than later being forced to.

00:29:52 ◼   ► But now I think, you know what?

00:29:54 ◼   ► Some of those things never go away.

00:29:55 ◼   ► Like I still haven't switched over

00:29:57 ◼   ► to their quote natural scroll direction.

00:29:59 ◼   ► I still scroll the old direction and it's fine.

00:30:01 ◼   ► - Are you serious?

00:30:03 ◼   ► You monster.

00:30:04 ◼   ► - Me neither.

00:30:04 ◼   ► I'm never switching it.

00:30:06 ◼   ► Like here's the thing.

00:30:07 ◼   ► - What?

00:30:08 ◼   ► - Sometimes they'll do something new

00:30:10 ◼   ► that people don't like.

00:30:12 ◼   ► And I think the natural scrolling is an example

00:30:14 ◼   ► where Apple said, look,

00:30:15 ◼   ► enough people like it the other way

00:30:18 ◼   ► that we can't really get rid of this.

00:30:20 ◼   ► Natural scrolling has been around what, five years?

00:30:22 ◼   ► - Seven. - Way more than that.

00:30:23 ◼   ► Way more. - It's like 10.

00:30:25 ◼   ► - And so it's not a big deal.

00:30:27 ◼   ► It's easy to switch and why not just leave the preference?

00:30:28 ◼   ► So that's the right call for them.

00:30:29 ◼   ► Toppy tabs, speaking of Safari.

00:30:31 ◼   ► They tried a different tab arrangement

00:30:33 ◼   ► and I think it was just the press or whatever

00:30:36 ◼   ► making a big stink about it.

00:30:37 ◼   ► And Apple, you know, just kind of wimped out

00:30:40 ◼   ► and said, ugh, we're getting a lot of bad reviews this

00:30:44 ◼   ► and maybe we won't do it.

00:30:45 ◼   ► I think Apple's gonna stick with the Safari design

00:30:48 ◼   ► because they're a little bit,

00:30:50 ◼   ► you know, they're more gutsy now than they were.

00:30:52 ◼   ► They have more courage now, I'd say.

00:30:54 ◼   ► - Well, they don't, I mean, they have,

00:30:56 ◼   ► I hate to bring this up,

00:30:57 ◼   ► they have a different design leadership going on now

00:31:00 ◼   ► and I think they,

00:31:02 ◼   ► I don't think the current design leadership

00:31:05 ◼   ► has shown a lot of willingness to respond to feedback.

00:31:08 ◼   ► - Yeah, I watch more of the sessions

00:31:10 ◼   ► explaining the new Safari.

00:31:11 ◼   ► Like, you know, as I said in the last episode,

00:31:14 ◼   ► part of the new design is that Apple has signed itself up

00:31:17 ◼   ► to a bunch of readability challenges

00:31:20 ◼   ► because they explicitly are allowing the content

00:31:22 ◼   ► of the webpage to essentially color the user interface.

00:31:25 ◼   ► So it's now up to Apple to make sure

00:31:28 ◼   ► that no matter what color the interface is,

00:31:30 ◼   ► that the elements that are part of the interface are visible.

00:31:32 ◼   ► Like, you have to still be able to see the buttons,

00:31:34 ◼   ► you have to be able to read the address bar.

00:31:36 ◼   ► They gave an example in one of the sessions

00:31:37 ◼   ► because actually like Safari 15 will do a smart,

00:31:41 ◼   ► this is again all on the Mac,

00:31:42 ◼   ► it'll do a smart thing where it'll like pull a color

00:31:44 ◼   ► from the webpage up,

00:31:45 ◼   ► but you can also from your webpage explicitly specify

00:31:47 ◼   ► what color you want that to be.

00:31:48 ◼   ► So on my website, I immediately specified

00:31:50 ◼   ► that it should be UI colored.

00:31:52 ◼   ► You just specify white and it stays UI colored.

00:31:54 ◼   ► Anyway, you can specify the color.

00:31:56 ◼   ► And in the presentation that the Apple person said is like,

00:32:00 ◼   ► you can specify pretty much any color,

00:32:02 ◼   ► but Safari will stop you from specifying certain colors.

00:32:05 ◼   ► And they gave an example.

00:32:07 ◼   ► If you specify the color of the toolbar in Safari

00:32:10 ◼   ► should be the same color as the close widget,

00:32:12 ◼   ► effectively making the close widget disappear.

00:32:14 ◼   ► Yeah, they won't let you pick that color, right?

00:32:17 ◼   ► So this is the kind of special case code they have to be.

00:32:19 ◼   ► Like you can't make it red of the stoplight,

00:32:21 ◼   ► you can't make it yellow, you can't make it green, right?

00:32:24 ◼   ► If you make it too dark, they have to switch the text

00:32:26 ◼   ► to be light on dark instead of dark on light.

00:32:28 ◼   ► Like all the same challenges as the menu bar,

00:32:30 ◼   ► which they also decided to make translucent

00:32:32 ◼   ► and pull stuff through.

00:32:33 ◼   ► And the menu bar changes from light text on dark

00:32:36 ◼   ► to dark text on light, depending on what's

00:32:38 ◼   ► in the background of your thing, right?

00:32:40 ◼   ► So now they've signed up for that challenge

00:32:42 ◼   ► on a per web page basis, because you can change that color,

00:32:45 ◼   ► not just per site, but per page.

00:32:47 ◼   ► And it's kind of fun, you know,

00:32:50 ◼   ► kind of fun design online where you can make your,

00:32:51 ◼   ► and you can also do it in light mode and dark mode, right?

00:32:53 ◼   ► You can do lots of fun things.

00:32:54 ◼   ► But as Marco said last episode,

00:32:57 ◼   ► sometimes the content people care about

00:32:58 ◼   ► is in fact their tabs and not the web page,

00:33:01 ◼   ► or at least on equal footing that they care about the tabs

00:33:03 ◼   ► and the web page and tying the two together

00:33:06 ◼   ► in sort of a unified design thing

00:33:07 ◼   ► may not be what people want.

00:33:09 ◼   ► Like sometimes you do want a clear separation

00:33:12 ◼   ► between here is the Chrome of my application,

00:33:13 ◼   ► which doesn't change colors or shape or wiggle around

00:33:16 ◼   ► or do any weird stuff and is always readable.

00:33:17 ◼   ► And then here is the content of the web page.

00:33:19 ◼   ► And Apple, their current design direction is

00:33:23 ◼   ► minimize that bar, make it as small as possible,

00:33:25 ◼   ► put everything on one line, so they all have to fight

00:33:27 ◼   ► for each other for the same amount of horizontal space.

00:33:30 ◼   ► They even had a thing where they're saying like,

00:33:31 ◼   ► oh, make sure your page titles are short

00:33:33 ◼   ► and put the important stuff up front,

00:33:34 ◼   ► which is a general good practice for web design period.

00:33:37 ◼   ► But the reason it's even more pressing in Safari 15 is,

00:33:40 ◼   ► guess what, your tabs have even less space

00:33:42 ◼   ► for giving window size

00:33:43 ◼   ► because they're fighting with the toolbar.

00:33:46 ◼   ► So I used it a little bit.

00:33:49 ◼   ► It's not terrible.

00:33:50 ◼   ► I will eventually get used to it probably,

00:33:52 ◼   ► but it's a design choice that I wouldn't have made.

00:33:55 ◼   ► And I sincerely hope that websites don't adopt the thing

00:33:59 ◼   ► where you can colorize that top toolbar thing

00:34:02 ◼   ► 'cause that's not really what I want.

00:34:03 ◼   ► And by the way, now that really matters,

00:34:04 ◼   ► because if you don't want that, speaking of options,

00:34:07 ◼   ► there is an option in Safari's preferences to say,

00:34:09 ◼   ► hey, don't let websites do that.

00:34:11 ◼   ► Just like, I forgot what it's called.

00:34:12 ◼   ► I should have put a screenshot in it,

00:34:13 ◼   ► but there's a checkbox that says,

00:34:15 ◼   ► even if a website says the top bar should be black,

00:34:17 ◼   ► just ignore that, and then we'll just keep the top bar

00:34:19 ◼   ► the same color all the time.

00:34:20 ◼   ► - I feel like we keep relearning this lesson in our industry.

00:34:23 ◼   ► Like we keep unlearning and then having to relearn.

00:34:27 ◼   ► You know, we shouldn't allow arbitrary colors and things

00:34:31 ◼   ► from user content or web content to be under and behind

00:34:36 ◼   ► and through the UI because it causes problems

00:34:39 ◼   ► in lots of edge cases, and not even edge cases,

00:34:41 ◼   ► lots of just common cases.

00:34:42 ◼   ► And you know, we had Windows Vista forever ago

00:34:45 ◼   ► with its translucent everything.

00:34:47 ◼   ► We've had the history of translucent backgrounds

00:34:51 ◼   ► and sidebars and toolbars and everything,

00:34:53 ◼   ► and Mac OS and Windows and everything else.

00:34:57 ◼   ► And we keep relearning this lesson over and over again.

00:35:00 ◼   ► Oh, it actually is better to have the Chrome

00:35:03 ◼   ► of the interface be mostly or entirely opaque

00:35:08 ◼   ► 'cause it actually improves legibility

00:35:10 ◼   ► of critical interface elements.

00:35:11 ◼   ► And like, when are we gonna finally stop fighting this fight?

00:35:14 ◼   ► We keep unlearning it, like every two years,

00:35:17 ◼   ► somewhere new, we have to fight this fight again.

00:35:20 ◼   ► - Well, to Apple's credit, they have gotten,

00:35:22 ◼   ► over the many years, way, way better at this

00:35:25 ◼   ► than they used to be.

00:35:26 ◼   ► If you just go look through the history

00:35:26 ◼   ► of a Mac OS X reviews from 10.0 on,

00:35:29 ◼   ► it was one of my first complaints.

00:35:30 ◼   ► And if you watch as the years went on,

00:35:31 ◼   ► Apple got, you're right that Apple keeps going back

00:35:33 ◼   ► to that well, 'cause they want it.

00:35:35 ◼   ► They want it so bad.

00:35:36 ◼   ► And every time they do it, they do a better job.

00:35:38 ◼   ► Even the menu bar, whatever OS release,

00:35:41 ◼   ► there was a Catalina or whatever,

00:35:42 ◼   ► and they first rolled out the current menu bar thing.

00:35:44 ◼   ► The first few iterations of that in the beta,

00:35:47 ◼   ► I mean, I filed bugs on it myself,

00:35:49 ◼   ► and people had screenshots of it,

00:35:50 ◼   ► like look at this menu bar, it's totally unreadable.

00:35:52 ◼   ► And they made adjustments.

00:35:54 ◼   ► Essentially, Apple has become an expert

00:35:57 ◼   ► at figuring out how to solve this specific design problem,

00:36:00 ◼   ► mostly because they keep signing themselves up for it.

00:36:01 ◼   ► The sidebars, the menu bar, the Safari toolbar.

00:36:05 ◼   ► They're way better at it.

00:36:06 ◼   ► It's rare that you get a case that is completely unreadable

00:36:10 ◼   ► like it used to be.

00:36:11 ◼   ► It's just, it is a challenge,

00:36:12 ◼   ► and it's kind of a war of choice, right?

00:36:15 ◼   ► And so it's clear that someone somewhere,

00:36:17 ◼   ► or groups of someones over the past decade or more

00:36:19 ◼   ► inside Apple really want this.

00:36:21 ◼   ► They want your desktop image to color your windows

00:36:25 ◼   ► and have the personality come through.

00:36:28 ◼   ► I understand why aesthetically it's a desirable thing,

00:36:30 ◼   ► but it is a difficult problem.

00:36:33 ◼   ► But Apple's pretty, really good at it now.

00:36:37 ◼   ► And also, they give you lots of check boxes to turn it off.

00:36:40 ◼   ► So window tinting, that's a check box in general preferences

00:36:43 ◼   ► that I assume is just gonna stay there.

00:36:44 ◼   ► Sidebar tinting was also a check box thing.

00:36:46 ◼   ► Like not just a P-list thing,

00:36:48 ◼   ► but like they actually have GUI to turn this off.

00:36:49 ◼   ► And in Safari, same deal, a check box turned off.

00:36:52 ◼   ► The default is all that crap to be on,

00:36:54 ◼   ► and a lot of times people aren't gonna find

00:36:56 ◼   ► those check boxes.

00:36:57 ◼   ► So if you see someone complaining about their computer

00:36:58 ◼   ► being hard to read, and you just go through

00:37:00 ◼   ► with those preferences and check, check, check, check,

00:37:01 ◼   ► then people will be like, oh,

00:37:03 ◼   ► why I wasn't like this to begin with,

00:37:04 ◼   ► which is, to Marco's point, why maybe the brass ring

00:37:08 ◼   ► that you're going after maybe isn't worth pursuing

00:37:10 ◼   ► because what are you even doing?

00:37:11 ◼   ► It's probably worse for most people.

00:37:13 ◼   ► But I will give Apple credit for doggedly pursuing

00:37:18 ◼   ► this stupid goal and being probably the best

00:37:20 ◼   ► in the industry at doing it, even though the result

00:37:23 ◼   ► is still probably worse than just having everything

00:37:25 ◼   ► be a normal color and be readable.

00:37:27 ◼   ► - I'm sorry, I'm still stuck on YouTube monsters

00:37:29 ◼   ► not using natural scrolling.

00:37:31 ◼   ► You know, I am the middle child of this podcast.

00:37:33 ◼   ► I am the middle child of this podcast by birth date,

00:37:36 ◼   ► but I am easily 30 years younger than both of you.

00:37:40 ◼   ► - Natural scrolling is not an old young thing.

00:37:42 ◼   ► I'm surprised that Marco doesn't use it

00:37:43 ◼   ► because he uses a trackpad now.

00:37:44 ◼   ► Natural scrolling doesn't make sense

00:37:46 ◼   ► if you still use a mouse wheel, which I do.

00:37:48 ◼   ► If you use a trackpad, I can understand why people

00:37:51 ◼   ► like natural scrolling.

00:37:52 ◼   ► And it is two separate settings, by the way.

00:37:54 ◼   ► You can have natural scrolling on your trackpad

00:37:56 ◼   ► and quote unquote unnatural scrolling on your mouse.

00:37:59 ◼   ► - No, that's correct.

00:38:00 ◼   ► - It's two separate settings.

00:38:02 ◼   ► But yeah, the reason I think they leave that checkbox there

00:38:04 ◼   ► is there are enough people that will just never

00:38:07 ◼   ► get used to it.

00:38:08 ◼   ► Enough people probably inside Apple who are just like,

00:38:09 ◼   ► just leave the checkbox.

00:38:11 ◼   ► It's not skin off your back.

00:38:12 ◼   ► It's really easy to do.

00:38:13 ◼   ► It's just like some negative number flips somewhere

00:38:15 ◼   ► and some code just, yeah.

00:38:17 ◼   ► - Absolute monsters.

00:38:19 ◼   ► - Well, and going back to like the reason I brought that up

00:38:20 ◼   ► is like I feel like, you know, the original thinking was

00:38:24 ◼   ► as soon as they change something that you don't like,

00:38:27 ◼   ► just adopt it quickly.

00:38:29 ◼   ► Just go for it.

00:38:30 ◼   ► That way, you know, you're not surprised later.

00:38:32 ◼   ► Well, I've recently decided, you know what?

00:38:33 ◼   ► I'll be surprised later.

00:38:34 ◼   ► That's fine.

00:38:35 ◼   ► Like if they give me an option to turn Safari,

00:38:39 ◼   ► like if this option that was discovered in this plist thing,

00:38:42 ◼   ► like if this sticks around or if there ever is an exposed

00:38:45 ◼   ► GUI option to turn Safari back to the way

00:38:48 ◼   ► all web browsers have looked forever, you know what?

00:38:51 ◼   ► I'll use it because I want my tabs to have the full width

00:38:55 ◼   ► of the window to expand into their tab list

00:38:58 ◼   ► because so often, I have enough tabs in one window

00:39:02 ◼   ► that they start collapsing the little text down

00:39:04 ◼   ► and become icon only and that's worse.

00:39:07 ◼   ► And so I try to then keep the number down

00:39:08 ◼   ► because I like being able to see part of the title

00:39:11 ◼   ► of the text because that's useful UI.

00:39:14 ◼   ► And if the tabs end up having like 2/3 or 1/2

00:39:18 ◼   ► of the space they had before total,

00:39:20 ◼   ► that's gonna significantly impede

00:39:22 ◼   ► the usability of this browser.

00:39:23 ◼   ► And so if there's some setting to just change it back,

00:39:26 ◼   ► then fine, I want that setting.

00:39:28 ◼   ► And if they take it away in five years, fine.

00:39:31 ◼   ► I'll reevaluate then.

00:39:32 ◼   ► But until then, I might as well enjoy it the good way.

00:39:35 ◼   ► - I mean, but in this specific case,

00:39:37 ◼   ► the quote unquote setting isn't even like a plist

00:39:39 ◼   ► in the Safari plist.

00:39:41 ◼   ► It is like disclosure required in the feature flags plist.

00:39:45 ◼   ► And I really wonder how long that's gonna stay around

00:39:48 ◼   ► or be functional.

00:39:49 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, honestly, that probably won't even make it

00:39:51 ◼   ► through the beta, but if it does, and I hope it does,

00:39:54 ◼   ► I will probably end up using it that way.

00:39:56 ◼   ► Now the real question is, can you somehow hack

00:39:58 ◼   ► the iOS Safari to not suck as much as it does right now

00:40:01 ◼   ► in the beta?

00:40:02 ◼   ► - You know, I don't know about that.

00:40:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, I haven't, I've mostly just been messing

00:40:05 ◼   ► with the Mac ones, but I am curious to see

00:40:07 ◼   ► what the iOS ones are like.

00:40:09 ◼   ► In principle, I feel better about the iOS changes,

00:40:12 ◼   ► but I will have to try them.

00:40:13 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I should clarify, iPad's not too bad.

00:40:15 ◼   ► I don't love the iPad version, but it's not as bad.

00:40:18 ◼   ► The iPhone version is not--

00:40:20 ◼   ► - Strong disagree, strong disagree with you there.

00:40:23 ◼   ► iPad is mediocre at best, and iOS, I actually think,

00:40:27 ◼   ► is very good.

00:40:28 ◼   ► I like having the address bar down at the bottom

00:40:31 ◼   ► so you can use it as like a second home indicator,

00:40:34 ◼   ► affordance, whatever you call that thing.

00:40:36 ◼   ► - Oh, speaking of the address bar on the bottom,

00:40:39 ◼   ► that's another one of the focuses of one of the sessions.

00:40:41 ◼   ► Right, so you've got the address bar on the bottom,

00:40:43 ◼   ► but if you think about it, if you scroll,

00:40:44 ◼   ► like the address bar collapses to that smaller version,

00:40:48 ◼   ► and then moves up to be floating right to the bigger version

00:40:52 ◼   ► and when it moves up like that, it can possibly block

00:40:55 ◼   ► what is at the bottom of the webpage,

00:40:57 ◼   ► depending on how you scroll.

00:40:58 ◼   ► And so they have special, you know,

00:41:02 ◼   ► like there are settings in CSS that you can do

00:41:05 ◼   ► to make it aware of when that button appears

00:41:08 ◼   ► so your webpage will scoot up out of the way of the UI,

00:41:10 ◼   ► and it's like, oh, come on, Apple.

00:41:12 ◼   ► It works, you can do it, but it's like, it's adding work

00:41:15 ◼   ► for web developers that basically no one's gonna do

00:41:17 ◼   ► except for people like me who have nothing better to do.

00:41:19 ◼   ► Right, because who's gonna make a change that only,

00:41:21 ◼   ► maybe Safari, mobile Safari is so popular

00:41:23 ◼   ► that they'll make the change anyway, right?

00:41:25 ◼   ► But it's like, the UI of your web browser

00:41:30 ◼   ► makes me have to change my website to accommodate for it,

00:41:33 ◼   ► that is backwards, it should not be that,

00:41:35 ◼   ► which should be the other way.

00:41:36 ◼   ► Like, however my website is, your browser should accommodate

00:41:39 ◼   ► because my website is the show and your browser

00:41:41 ◼   ► is supposed to be the Chrome.

00:41:43 ◼   ► Oh my God.

00:41:44 ◼   ► - Well, and also, like, they never actually,

00:41:46 ◼   ► like, that's wonderful wishful thinking

00:41:48 ◼   ► that the entire web's gonna somehow make this work.

00:41:51 ◼   ► The reality is, like, we've seen for how long,

00:41:53 ◼   ► over a decade as iPhone users, that, you know,

00:41:56 ◼   ► we, like, whenever you, like, whenever you see, like,

00:41:59 ◼   ► a web view or a webpage that opens up

00:42:01 ◼   ► and they've put something in the bottom 44 points

00:42:04 ◼   ► of the viewport, and you just can't tap it,

00:42:07 ◼   ► because if you try to tap it, the toolbar comes up, right?

00:42:09 ◼   ► Like, and this has been a problem forever.

00:42:12 ◼   ► You can't rely on the entire internet

00:42:15 ◼   ► to update all of their designs for all of time

00:42:18 ◼   ► to work around some of these UI hacks

00:42:21 ◼   ► that Apple puts in every iPhone.

00:42:23 ◼   ► You know, a lot of web developers will do it right,

00:42:25 ◼   ► but even if, you know, 95% of the web pages you visit

00:42:30 ◼   ► do it right, that 5% is gonna really bother you.

00:42:34 ◼   ► And so, to add even more, like, little custom Safari

00:42:38 ◼   ► behaviors that interfere with web content

00:42:41 ◼   ► in order to have the web content, like,

00:42:44 ◼   ► flow around the background of the toolbar

00:42:46 ◼   ► doesn't seem, not only worth it,

00:42:48 ◼   ► but also just doesn't seem pragmatic.

00:42:50 ◼   ► I think that's going to break even more pages

00:42:53 ◼   ► than the previous thing did.

00:42:55 ◼   ► And again, and I keep asking, for what?

00:42:57 ◼   ► Like, I don't mind the concept of having the toolbar

00:43:00 ◼   ► at the bottom, like, I think that's an interesting thing

00:43:01 ◼   ► to explore, there are some challenges there,

00:43:03 ◼   ► but given, you know, how phones are really big

00:43:05 ◼   ► and everything, that's an interesting thing to explore,

00:43:07 ◼   ► I think, for the UI.

00:43:08 ◼   ► But the way they implemented this bottom toolbar

00:43:11 ◼   ► with those two different modes and the giant drop shadow

00:43:15 ◼   ► around the large mode of the address bar

00:43:18 ◼   ► and burying everything, it just, I feel like

00:43:22 ◼   ► this is like version 0.2 of this design

00:43:25 ◼   ► that shouldn't have made it out of the lab

00:43:27 ◼   ► and need some more iteration, a lot more iteration.

00:43:30 ◼   ► - And they did this with the hardware too, if you remember.

00:43:32 ◼   ► This was also in the same session where they reminded people

00:43:34 ◼   ► of a thing that's been there for years now,

00:43:35 ◼   ► which is when they added the notch to the iPhone.

00:43:37 ◼   ► A hardware feature.

00:43:38 ◼   ► Now, if you're looking at a webpage and you rotate it

00:43:40 ◼   ► and you turn it into landscape view,

00:43:42 ◼   ► you can't really have the webpage

00:43:44 ◼   ► getting stuck under the notch.

00:43:45 ◼   ► So what they do is say, okay, well now when you rotate it

00:43:48 ◼   ► into landscape, the actual edge of the Safari

00:43:50 ◼   ► quote unquote window is clear of the notch, right?

00:43:54 ◼   ► But then sometimes it looks weird because now it looks like

00:43:55 ◼   ► you're not using the full width of the screen, right?

00:43:58 ◼   ► So there is a feature, again, in Safari with CSS,

00:44:01 ◼   ► where, this is a basic CSS feature, right,

00:44:03 ◼   ► to say what is the safe area, insets or whatever,

00:44:05 ◼   ► there's a viewport directive that you can use

00:44:07 ◼   ► to make it so that your background extends into the notch

00:44:10 ◼   ► while keeping your content clear of the notch, right?

00:44:13 ◼   ► And most of these features, if you look at them

00:44:15 ◼   ► in the abstract, like, well, this is not really

00:44:18 ◼   ► a feature for Apple's notch, it's more like a feature

00:44:20 ◼   ► of saying essentially where is a safe area

00:44:22 ◼   ► for me to draw my content versus where is an area

00:44:24 ◼   ► where my background could go?

00:44:25 ◼   ► And that is a generic feature and web standards

00:44:27 ◼   ► are supported and I applaud all of that.

00:44:29 ◼   ► But if you look at the sum of things that Apple has done

00:44:32 ◼   ► to make lives more difficult with people running websites,

00:44:35 ◼   ► sometimes purely in service of its own particular devices

00:44:38 ◼   ► or its own particular design, like you said, Marco,

00:44:39 ◼   ► like, there are lots of ways to do a bottom navigation bar

00:44:43 ◼   ► that don't have this problem at all, right, lots of them.

00:44:45 ◼   ► But part of the problem is like when you're a designer,

00:44:48 ◼   ► like, if you look at the solutions they came up with,

00:44:51 ◼   ► when you have a design like this and it's like,

00:44:53 ◼   ► okay, this design has problems,

00:44:55 ◼   ► when you solve those problems, quote, unquote,

00:44:57 ◼   ► solve those problems by like, oh, here's how we can do this

00:44:59 ◼   ► with an existing CSS standard and some directives

00:45:01 ◼   ► and just do this on the webpage and blah, blah, blah,

00:45:02 ◼   ► and then we can make a WWDC about it

00:45:04 ◼   ► and explain to people how to do it,

00:45:05 ◼   ► you feel good that you've solved those problems

00:45:07 ◼   ► 'cause you have done a clever thing.

00:45:09 ◼   ► You had some problems and you solved them,

00:45:11 ◼   ► but you also made the problems.

00:45:13 ◼   ► The problems are there because of the design

00:45:15 ◼   ► that you picked and so while it feels good

00:45:17 ◼   ► to solve those problems and it's cool when you can come up

00:45:20 ◼   ► with a generic mechanism to solve them

00:45:22 ◼   ► that it doesn't just solve your problem

00:45:23 ◼   ► but solves this entire class of problems,

00:45:25 ◼   ► you still think, well, if you just did

00:45:26 ◼   ► a normal bottom toolbar, that might have been better.

00:45:28 ◼   ► Now, there's this trade-offs for a regular bottom toolbar too

00:45:30 ◼   ► 'cause it wouldn't be as high and as big, like, I understand.

00:45:34 ◼   ► It's a little muddy and we'll all live with this thing

00:45:35 ◼   ► for a while and see how it is and maybe we'll never be able

00:45:38 ◼   ► to go back to the old one where you had to reach way up

00:45:39 ◼   ► to the top of the phone to do anything, but it's weird.

00:45:42 ◼   ► But anyway, my website is update.

00:45:44 ◼   ► Everything I just mentioned,

00:45:45 ◼   ► my website is update to accommodate.

00:45:46 ◼   ► So if you ever look at my website

00:45:48 ◼   ► when I put a post on it once per year,

00:45:49 ◼   ► everything will look great on your phone.

00:45:52 ◼   ► - You update the website, like, in its design

00:45:54 ◼   ► and technical stuff more than you post on it.

00:45:55 ◼   ► - Way more often.

00:45:56 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:45:57 ◼   ► - No, 'cause it's probably like a once a year thing.

00:45:59 ◼   ► I still haven't done dark mode.

00:46:00 ◼   ► That's the one thing I don't support

00:46:01 ◼   ► and mostly because I couldn't, it was just too much effort

00:46:03 ◼   ► to try to come up with a good dark mode color scheme.

00:46:06 ◼   ► And I kind of don't like the idea

00:46:08 ◼   ► of websites turning dark in dark mode.

00:46:10 ◼   ► I kind of like my website to look the same all the time.

00:46:12 ◼   ► I'm sorry for blinding everybody in dark mode.

00:46:15 ◼   ► - Oh my God, I have never been in opposition with you two

00:46:20 ◼   ► more than I have tonight.

00:46:21 ◼   ► You are, but you both have had a string

00:46:25 ◼   ► of impressively wrong opinions this entire episode.

00:46:27 ◼   ► I don't know what to do with myself.

00:46:28 ◼   ► - Do you run in dark mode?

00:46:29 ◼   ► - I don't, I run dark mode when it's dark outside.

00:46:32 ◼   ► I don't run it all the time, but.

00:46:34 ◼   ► - No, that's the worst.

00:46:34 ◼   ► I don't like my things to change like that.

00:46:36 ◼   ► I know people, I understand people are into it, but like.

00:46:39 ◼   ► - I run it on the phone, but not on a Mac.

00:46:41 ◼   ► - You run it all the time on the phone?

00:46:42 ◼   ► - No, on the phone I do auto switching,

00:46:45 ◼   ► but on everything else I'm light all the time.

00:46:48 ◼   ► - Maybe when you get older

00:46:49 ◼   ► and start losing your night vision,

00:46:51 ◼   ► you'll like dark mode less.

00:46:52 ◼   ► But I feel bad.

00:46:53 ◼   ► I should come up with a good dark mode,

00:46:54 ◼   ► but actually coming up with a good dark mode color scheme

00:46:57 ◼   ► is much harder than you think it is.

00:46:59 ◼   ► Apple, again, Apple does an amazing job of this.

00:47:01 ◼   ► A lot of their dark mode color schemes are fantastic.

00:47:04 ◼   ► And it's like a, you really have to like

00:47:06 ◼   ► understand color theory.

00:47:07 ◼   ► 'Cause if you like take the eyedropper

00:47:09 ◼   ► and sample the colors, you're like,

00:47:10 ◼   ► that's the color they're using, it looks awful.

00:47:12 ◼   ► But then you look at it in the UI like, oh, it looks right.

00:47:14 ◼   ► You know, it's the same way that if you, you know,

00:47:16 ◼   ► old optical illusions, if you like have a piece of paper

00:47:19 ◼   ► that covers up the whole picture,

00:47:20 ◼   ► except the one little square where the color is,

00:47:22 ◼   ► the color looks nothing like you thought,

00:47:23 ◼   ► because that's how color, our perception of color works.

00:47:25 ◼   ► So anyway, coming up with a good dark mode color scheme

00:47:28 ◼   ► is difficult.

00:47:29 ◼   ► If I could come up with a good one from my website,

00:47:30 ◼   ► I would probably put it in a dark mode

00:47:32 ◼   ► just to satisfy people, but I personally don't use it.

00:47:35 ◼   ► We are sponsored this week by Secret Sauce,

00:47:39 ◼   ► a podcast from Wondery.

00:47:41 ◼   ► In the Secret Sauce series, hosts John Fry and Sam Donner

00:47:45 ◼   ► explore the stories and successes

00:47:47 ◼   ► behind some of the most inspiring businesses,

00:47:49 ◼   ► creative innovators, and intrepid entrepreneurs.

00:47:52 ◼   ► And at the top of that list is Johnny Ive.

00:47:55 ◼   ► Everyone knows Steve Jobs as the creative force behind Apple.

00:47:59 ◼   ► But without Johnny Ive, none of us would be holding up

00:48:01 ◼   ► an iPhone or an iPad.

00:48:03 ◼   ► Together, they made magic happen in Cupertino.

00:48:06 ◼   ► Believe it or not, in the early 90s,

00:48:08 ◼   ► the tech giant that we know as Apple

00:48:10 ◼   ► was in a complete nosedive.

00:48:12 ◼   ► But an unlikely duo, Steve Jobs and Johnny Ive,

00:48:16 ◼   ► combined their powers to transform the company and the world.

00:48:20 ◼   ► The all new season of Secret Sauce

00:48:22 ◼   ► breaks down how this Apple computer odd couple

00:48:24 ◼   ► reached the pinnacle of Silicon Valley success.

00:48:27 ◼   ► Listen to Secret Sauce on Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music,

00:48:31 ◼   ► wherever you get your podcasts,

00:48:33 ◼   ► or you can listen one week early and ad free

00:48:36 ◼   ► by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app.

00:48:39 ◼   ► So once again, it's the Secret Sauce podcast,

00:48:41 ◼   ► wherever you get your podcasts,

00:48:43 ◼   ► or you can listen one week early and ad free

00:48:45 ◼   ► from the Wondery Plus service in the Wondery app.

00:48:49 ◼   ► Wondery, feel the story.

00:48:50 ◼   ► - Let's talk more WWDC stuff

00:48:56 ◼   ► and let's see what wrong opinions

00:48:59 ◼   ► you two have about this stuff.

00:49:01 ◼   ► There are ARM only Monterrey features,

00:49:02 ◼   ► only on Apple Silicon, which is kind of a bummer.

00:49:06 ◼   ► So the following features are listed in some fine print

00:49:10 ◼   ► as being, as requiring a Mac with the M1 chip.

00:49:13 ◼   ► Portrait mode, blurred backgrounds in FaceTime videos,

00:49:16 ◼   ► live text for copying, oh man, I didn't realize that.

00:49:19 ◼   ► - Keep reading, how you feeling about it?

00:49:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, live text for copying, pasting, looking up,

00:49:22 ◼   ► or translating text within photos,

00:49:24 ◼   ► an interactive 3D globe of the earth in the Maps app,

00:49:27 ◼   ► more detailed maps in cities like San Francisco,

00:49:29 ◼   ► Los Angeles, New York, and London,

00:49:31 ◼   ► which by the way, those maps are crazy cool.

00:49:34 ◼   ► I was impressed by that when I saw it in the keynote

00:49:36 ◼   ► and I have the beta on a Test 11 Pro

00:49:40 ◼   ► and on my day-to-day iPad

00:49:42 ◼   ► and those maps are incredibly cool.

00:49:45 ◼   ► Text-to-speech in more languages,

00:49:46 ◼   ► including Swedish, Danish, Norwegian, and Finnish.

00:49:49 ◼   ► On-device keyboard dictation

00:49:50 ◼   ► that performs all processing completely offline.

00:49:52 ◼   ► And finally, unlimited keyboard detection,

00:49:55 ◼   ► which is previously limited to 60 seconds per instance.

00:49:59 ◼   ► That's a bummer, particularly the maps thing

00:50:02 ◼   ► and the live text thing, I think are super, super bummers.

00:50:05 ◼   ► That's too bad.

00:50:06 ◼   ► - So this is quite a mixture of features,

00:50:08 ◼   ► many of which were kind of headlining features, right?

00:50:11 ◼   ► And people might be surprised to learn

00:50:13 ◼   ► if they're not on Intel.

00:50:14 ◼   ► Now obviously, like this is on Apple's webpage

00:50:16 ◼   ► and they have a little footnote

00:50:17 ◼   ► that says they're not available on Intel.

00:50:19 ◼   ► Maybe that will change before release,

00:50:21 ◼   ► but it's not like this is just how it is in the beta

00:50:23 ◼   ► and we can guess they did put it on a webpage.

00:50:25 ◼   ► Like it's apple.com/macos/monteray-preview.

00:50:28 ◼   ► So it's not a public webpage where they're saying,

00:50:30 ◼   ► hey, if you got an Intel Mac, don't expect this.

00:50:32 ◼   ► Some of the features have a plausible,

00:50:35 ◼   ► if still frustrating explanation, right?

00:50:37 ◼   ► The portrait mode blurring, FaceTime video, whatever, right?

00:50:41 ◼   ► That features that were developed for iOS devices

00:50:45 ◼   ► and for the neural engine on the ARM chip

00:50:47 ◼   ► and all that stuff.

00:50:49 ◼   ► Yes, they could rewrite it so it worked on Intel.

00:50:51 ◼   ► But at this point in Apple's transition to ARM,

00:50:54 ◼   ► how much effort do you think Apple wants to spend

00:50:57 ◼   ► rewriting something for Intel,

00:51:00 ◼   ► to be GPU powered or to use Intel's SIMD instructions

00:51:04 ◼   ► or whatever, right?

00:51:05 ◼   ► There's lots of ways you could do this.

00:51:06 ◼   ► It's not like Intel Macs are quote unquote incapable of it.

00:51:08 ◼   ► The neural engine is pretty amazing though, but still,

00:51:11 ◼   ► you could do it on Intel Macs.

00:51:13 ◼   ► But Apple doesn't want to have to invest time

00:51:15 ◼   ► in writing that.

00:51:16 ◼   ► And like a lot of the frameworks they use to do it

00:51:19 ◼   ► are probably Apple neural engine frameworks

00:51:21 ◼   ► 'cause this feature was building on work that was done

00:51:24 ◼   ► when this was only ever going to ship on something

00:51:27 ◼   ► with the neural engine and all that.

00:51:28 ◼   ► So that, I mean, it's disappointing.

00:51:31 ◼   ► It's not actually a technical barrier,

00:51:32 ◼   ► but you can understand why Apple wouldn't want

00:51:34 ◼   ► to invest the time to make an Intel version

00:51:36 ◼   ► just as they're flushing the rest of the Intel Macs

00:51:38 ◼   ► down the toilet, right?

00:51:39 ◼   ► So sad, but understandable.

00:51:41 ◼   ► Some other ones though, you're like,

00:51:43 ◼   ► does this require anything having to do

00:51:46 ◼   ► with the ARM, you know, with ARM Apple system on a chips?

00:51:51 ◼   ► Or is it just that they had finished working code

00:51:53 ◼   ► that works in ARM and they didn't even bother

00:51:55 ◼   ► even like recompiling and dealing with the issues?

00:51:57 ◼   ► And one example of that is the app Globes View.

00:52:00 ◼   ► Apparently there's a way to re-enable that feature

00:52:03 ◼   ► with a debug flag and it works just fine in Intel Macs.

00:52:07 ◼   ► So maybe it has bugs on Intel.

00:52:09 ◼   ► Maybe they didn't want to test it on Intel,

00:52:10 ◼   ► but it all kind of gets into the sort of

00:52:11 ◼   ► the corporate horse trading of like,

00:52:14 ◼   ► what does Apple deciding to spend its time on?

00:52:16 ◼   ► And it seems like any time spent on things

00:52:19 ◼   ► just for Intel Macs is kind of below the line,

00:52:21 ◼   ► as we say in the business for Apple these days.

00:52:25 ◼   ► With the possible exception being

00:52:26 ◼   ► the newly revised Mac Pro Tower that supports Nvidia

00:52:30 ◼   ► of 6,900 video cards that has been rumored for a while.

00:52:35 ◼   ► So if they come up with the new,

00:52:36 ◼   ► if they come up with a new,

00:52:37 ◼   ► you know, with the new Xeons and everything,

00:52:39 ◼   ► if they come up with new Intel Macs with the new Xeons

00:52:41 ◼   ► and new video cards, but still you can't do

00:52:43 ◼   ► like the globe map thing on Intel Macs,

00:52:45 ◼   ► that's quite a mixture of corporate priorities.

00:52:48 ◼   ► But I suppose the priorities for the super duper pro group

00:52:52 ◼   ► and their customers are very different

00:52:54 ◼   ► than the priorities of everyone else.

00:52:54 ◼   ► But it is going to make people feel disappointed.

00:52:56 ◼   ► Like if live text doesn't work and it's like,

00:52:59 ◼   ► oh, I saw that, you know,

00:53:00 ◼   ► I thought I see people doing that on their Macs.

00:53:02 ◼   ► Why can't I do it on my Mac?

00:53:04 ◼   ► Oh, you've got an Intel Mac.

00:53:05 ◼   ► What's Intel?

00:53:06 ◼   ► Like people don't know why they can't do it.

00:53:09 ◼   ► It's just, it just seems like a shame.

00:53:12 ◼   ► Granted, everyone should have our Macs,

00:53:14 ◼   ► but Apple's not going to give everyone one of those for free.

00:53:16 ◼   ► So I really hope that Apple kind of changes its mind

00:53:20 ◼   ► on at least a few of these and puts in the work

00:53:22 ◼   ► to make an Intel version of these features.

00:53:24 ◼   ► 'Cause I don't think it would be that much work.

00:53:26 ◼   ► And even though Apple's not going to be selling

00:53:28 ◼   ► Intel Macs pretty soon,

00:53:29 ◼   ► people are going to have them for a long time.

00:53:32 ◼   ► - It is kind of funny to think like, you know,

00:53:34 ◼   ► back when we were all in middle school, you know,

00:53:36 ◼   ► when we'd be talking, oh yeah,

00:53:37 ◼   ► do you play the latest, you know, Doom or whatever.

00:53:40 ◼   ► And you know, the one kid would be like,

00:53:42 ◼   ► oh, I have a Mac.

00:53:43 ◼   ► And it was like, oh, that's, you poor kid, right?

00:53:46 ◼   ► Like that's-- - You sweet summer child.

00:53:48 ◼   ► - Yeah, like your games suck.

00:53:49 ◼   ► And like now, like, you know,

00:53:51 ◼   ► eventually Apple moved to Intel,

00:53:53 ◼   ► the same processors PCs were using,

00:53:54 ◼   ► you can install Windows on it and everything,

00:53:56 ◼   ► like the maximum compatibility with everything.

00:53:58 ◼   ► Now they left that world,

00:54:00 ◼   ► and now we feel bad for the Intel Macs.

00:54:03 ◼   ► Oh, you can't do this new feature, that's too bad.

00:54:05 ◼   ► We really have come full circle.

00:54:08 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's 'cause the Apple's new big thing

00:54:12 ◼   ► is the phone new big thing, right?

00:54:13 ◼   ► But that's where all the action happens.

00:54:15 ◼   ► And so it's like all the cool features happen on the phone

00:54:17 ◼   ► and if the Mac can benefit from that, great.

00:54:21 ◼   ► But if it can't,

00:54:21 ◼   ► because it uses the wrong kind of processor, oh well.

00:54:24 ◼   ► I mean, that's the whole reason

00:54:25 ◼   ► they did the transition to begin with.

00:54:26 ◼   ► But I remember speaking of Mac and Doom,

00:54:28 ◼   ► I remember playing Doom on my Mac.

00:54:30 ◼   ► What was it?

00:54:31 ◼   ► It was like, it was a Doom port to the Mac,

00:54:32 ◼   ► which is not a good port.

00:54:34 ◼   ► And it was many years after Doom was, you know,

00:54:36 ◼   ► obviously out on the PC.

00:54:37 ◼   ► And there was some kind of thing you use for Mac OS

00:54:40 ◼   ► that gave you like, oh, YouTube will tell me this.

00:54:43 ◼   ► - What was the weird PC networking

00:54:44 ◼   ► that Doom used for deathmatch IPX?

00:54:47 ◼   ► - IPX. - IPX.

00:54:48 ◼   ► - Yeah. - Yeah.

00:54:49 ◼   ► Anyway, it was a Mac OS IPX extension.

00:54:52 ◼   ► So you could play Doom deathmatch against people on PCs

00:54:55 ◼   ► through like the world's jankiest network stack

00:54:57 ◼   ► that somehow is like a house of cards, like making it.

00:55:00 ◼   ► It was like, I don't even know if it was,

00:55:01 ◼   ► I guess it had to be TCP/IP.

00:55:03 ◼   ► Because TCP/IP used to be like an extension,

00:55:07 ◼   ► you know, it wasn't built into the operating system

00:55:08 ◼   ► back in the day.

00:55:09 ◼   ► So like Trumpet/Winsock days, you know,

00:55:10 ◼   ► when it was like a thing that you would get

00:55:11 ◼   ► for your computer and add on so you could get on the internet.

00:55:15 ◼   ► Anyway, the framework was terrible.

00:55:17 ◼   ► And I'd already played Doom for like years

00:55:19 ◼   ► on my friend's Pentiums and it was kind of pointless.

00:55:22 ◼   ► - The funny thing is like, through this entire like circle

00:55:24 ◼   ► of having the wrong processor,

00:55:26 ◼   ► then having the right processor,

00:55:28 ◼   ► now having the wrong processor again,

00:55:30 ◼   ► games on the Mac have always sucked

00:55:31 ◼   ► and still have still suck and will always suck.

00:55:34 ◼   ► - I mean, that shows that the hardware

00:55:36 ◼   ► is not usually the main barrier,

00:55:37 ◼   ► but there was a time in there when we were on Intel

00:55:40 ◼   ► and you could get Nvidia GPUs when,

00:55:42 ◼   ► yeah, it was still a grim situation,

00:55:44 ◼   ► but at least you could just boot into Windows

00:55:46 ◼   ► and have the same stuff.

00:55:47 ◼   ► You got the same processor,

00:55:48 ◼   ► you got the same Nvidia graphic card,

00:55:49 ◼   ► you got the same Windows,

00:55:50 ◼   ► and it would run at the speed that you would expect

00:55:52 ◼   ► a PC that you built for one eighth of the price

00:55:54 ◼   ► would run that same game.

00:55:56 ◼   ► - So since I've made fun of you two for being old,

00:55:59 ◼   ► let me make fun of myself for being old.

00:56:01 ◼   ► I remember vividly having friends bring their like

00:56:06 ◼   ► mini tower to tower computers

00:56:08 ◼   ► and their 8,000 pound CRTs to my house to have a sleepover

00:56:12 ◼   ► and a quote unquote LAN party,

00:56:14 ◼   ► but this was during the days of DOS.

00:56:16 ◼   ► And so it wasn't a LAN party,

00:56:17 ◼   ► it was instead like two computers would connect to each other

00:56:21 ◼   ► with what you would think as a serial cable,

00:56:23 ◼   ► but oh no, no, no.

00:56:24 ◼   ► Do you remember what it's called Marco?

00:56:25 ◼   ► - A null modem cable?

00:56:26 ◼   ► - Mm-hmm, with a null modem cable.

00:56:29 ◼   ► And so you could play against each other

00:56:30 ◼   ► 'cause there was no like any sort of networking

00:56:33 ◼   ► at that point that was,

00:56:35 ◼   ► I mean, I'm sure it existed, but it wasn't on DOS

00:56:38 ◼   ► or anything like that.

00:56:40 ◼   ► And then fast forward a little while

00:56:42 ◼   ► and a lot of these games on DOS like Doom, for example,

00:56:45 ◼   ► supported the aforementioned IPX networking,

00:56:48 ◼   ► which I don't know where or how that ever existed for real,

00:56:52 ◼   ► but apparently it was a thing somewhere.

00:56:54 ◼   ► But, and I've talked about this several times on the show

00:56:57 ◼   ► over the last few years,

00:56:58 ◼   ► but I remember getting a piece of software called Kali,

00:57:01 ◼   ► K-A-L-I, and I'll put a link in the show.

00:57:03 ◼   ► - Oh, that was huge.

00:57:05 ◼   ► - Yeah, and so what it would do is it would emulate

00:57:08 ◼   ► an IPX network, like a local IPX network,

00:57:10 ◼   ► but it rode on top of the internet, on top of TCP/IP.

00:57:14 ◼   ► So it was like a combination of this like network facade

00:57:18 ◼   ► as well as a like game match system.

00:57:22 ◼   ► And I'm sure there's a better term for that

00:57:24 ◼   ► with kids these days, but I don't know,

00:57:25 ◼   ► that's what I called it at the time.

00:57:26 ◼   ► And so you could find like,

00:57:28 ◼   ► and I remember playing Descent with this all the time,

00:57:31 ◼   ► but you would figure out on the internet

00:57:34 ◼   ► a group of people to play Descent

00:57:37 ◼   ► and you would find these rooms in Kali

00:57:39 ◼   ► and then you would connect

00:57:40 ◼   ► and then it would fake out the IPX network

00:57:42 ◼   ► so you could all play each other.

00:57:43 ◼   ► And this was applicable to many, many, many different

00:57:46 ◼   ► DOS games and in Windows as well at the time.

00:57:49 ◼   ► And it was amazing.

00:57:51 ◼   ► And it was shareware.

00:57:52 ◼   ► And I remember I like asked dad

00:57:53 ◼   ► if I could have his credit card to spend like 20 bucks

00:57:56 ◼   ► one time to have a license in perpetuity,

00:57:59 ◼   ► which I don't have that information anymore,

00:58:00 ◼   ► but I guess if I wanted to download Kali again,

00:58:03 ◼   ► I think it's still valid.

00:58:04 ◼   ► But anyways, it was just amazing.

00:58:07 ◼   ► And it's so wild how far we've come

00:58:10 ◼   ► from bringing these exceedingly heavy computers

00:58:14 ◼   ► and extremely heavy monitors upstairs to my house

00:58:18 ◼   ► where we had these no modem cables

00:58:19 ◼   ► where we would sit and eat too many Doritos

00:58:21 ◼   ► and play games against each other.

00:58:24 ◼   ► See also when we would play point to point via modems.

00:58:27 ◼   ► So you would have your modem call the other person's modem

00:58:31 ◼   ► and you could play point to point in a local area

00:58:34 ◼   ► against each other.

00:58:36 ◼   ► It was so barbaric, but at the time

00:58:38 ◼   ► it was the coolest thing in the entire world.

00:58:41 ◼   ► And it was a miracle that we could get it to work.

00:58:43 ◼   ► And golly, now it's like, thinking about that,

00:58:47 ◼   ► it's so ancient and preposterous technology, man.

00:58:50 ◼   ► - Yeah, even though I had Macs during all this time

00:58:52 ◼   ► and never owned a PC, everything you've listed I've done.

00:58:55 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:58:56 ◼   ► No modem cables, Kali.

00:58:58 ◼   ► Just because I didn't have a PC

00:58:59 ◼   ► doesn't mean I wasn't around people who had them.

00:59:01 ◼   ► So I was there as technical help

00:59:03 ◼   ► to do what Marco has described.

00:59:04 ◼   ► To spend the first hour and a half

00:59:05 ◼   ► just trying to get everyone to get the map

00:59:07 ◼   ► and get everything set up and get the connections to work.

00:59:09 ◼   ► Or get us to call on the phone and say,

00:59:11 ◼   ► "We're gonna call you now, okay, hang up, all right, hang on."

00:59:13 ◼   ► Then have to do the modem thing, oh, it was a nightmare.

00:59:16 ◼   ► - Oh God, I miss those days.

00:59:18 ◼   ► I don't really want to go back to these days,

00:59:21 ◼   ► but I do miss those days quite a bit.

00:59:23 ◼   ► And Marco, you did a fair number of honest to goodness

00:59:26 ◼   ► LAN parties in your day, didn't you?

00:59:28 ◼   ► - Yeah, actually, because we had,

00:59:30 ◼   ► like in our little group of friends,

00:59:31 ◼   ► we had three of us had some concept of a home network.

00:59:36 ◼   ► Like ethernet wiring running somewhere

00:59:40 ◼   ► with multiple computers.

00:59:41 ◼   ► But mostly it was us bringing our giant tower computers

00:59:45 ◼   ► and giant heavy CRT monitors to each other's houses

00:59:48 ◼   ► and plugging in somehow to some kind of ethernet situation.

00:59:52 ◼   ► I mean, these days it's so much easier,

00:59:55 ◼   ► because these days most kids have laptops

00:59:58 ◼   ► instead of desktops.

00:59:59 ◼   ► So even if your gaming performance on a laptop

01:00:01 ◼   ► would be inferior to desktop performance,

01:00:03 ◼   ► it would still be far more useful

01:00:06 ◼   ► for bringing it to your friend's house

01:00:08 ◼   ► and playing together.

01:00:10 ◼   ► Not to mention the fact that WiFi exists,

01:00:11 ◼   ► which back then it was just barely starting to come out

01:00:15 ◼   ► and none of us had it.

01:00:16 ◼   ► So, oh man, we had so much fun.

01:00:20 ◼   ► To go from not being able to play computer games

01:00:24 ◼   ► with each other in the same room

01:00:26 ◼   ► to the first time we experienced that

01:00:28 ◼   ► was such an upgrade in fun and in coolness.

01:00:32 ◼   ► I still remember those early games.

01:00:34 ◼   ► I mean, the very first one we played was Doom.

01:00:38 ◼   ► We didn't have a null modem cable though.

01:00:41 ◼   ► And one of my friends, his parents had two computers,

01:00:44 ◼   ► 'cause they both were like computer using professionals,

01:00:47 ◼   ► and they had two phone lines,

01:00:49 ◼   ► 'cause again, they were professionals.

01:00:51 ◼   ► - Oh, so you would dial it yourselves?

01:00:52 ◼   ► - Well, by lacking a null modem cable,

01:00:55 ◼   ► we used one computer to call the other one,

01:00:57 ◼   ► tying up both phone lines.

01:01:00 ◼   ► Naturally, that did not last.

01:01:01 ◼   ► The parents were not super pleased with us

01:01:03 ◼   ► tying up both of their phone lines

01:01:06 ◼   ► for indefinite amounts of time to play Doom.

01:01:08 ◼   ► But man, we do have it a lot better today,

01:01:12 ◼   ► but those times were very fun as well.

01:01:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's funny you bring that up,

01:01:16 ◼   ► 'cause we had two phone lines for most of my childhood,

01:01:18 ◼   ► which made us pretty spoiled.

01:01:21 ◼   ► And the reason we had it was because my dad,

01:01:23 ◼   ► when he came home, was often living on the computer.

01:01:26 ◼   ► We were talking about this just a couple of weeks ago,

01:01:28 ◼   ► continuing to use profs,

01:01:29 ◼   ► which was this terminal-based email solution.

01:01:31 ◼   ► And he would be on the phone,

01:01:34 ◼   ► dialed into IBM for hours in the evenings.

01:01:36 ◼   ► And if we didn't have two phone lines, it would be a mess.

01:01:39 ◼   ► But dad would go to bed pretty early,

01:01:42 ◼   ► 'cause he always woke up early.

01:01:44 ◼   ► And so there were a couple of hours at night

01:01:45 ◼   ► that I would be awake,

01:01:46 ◼   ► that the second phone line would be empty.

01:01:47 ◼   ► And so it was not unusual to have a late night gaming session

01:01:50 ◼   ► with one of my local friends,

01:01:51 ◼   ► where I would dial that person,

01:01:53 ◼   ► or they would dial me, or what have you.

01:01:55 ◼   ► And it's also funny too,

01:01:56 ◼   ► because I don't know how it is today,

01:01:59 ◼   ► but when Marco and I were in college,

01:02:00 ◼   ► and I think, John, you had a similar experience

01:02:02 ◼   ► with different games,

01:02:03 ◼   ► but when Marco and I were in college,

01:02:05 ◼   ► Counter-Strike was really big,

01:02:06 ◼   ► and Quake 2 or 3 or something, I forget which one it was,

01:02:09 ◼   ► but one of the Quakes was really big.

01:02:12 ◼   ► And as Neil, underscore, underscore, underscore,

01:02:13 ◼   ► in the chat, points out,

01:02:14 ◼   ► college dorms were just land parties across several rooms.

01:02:19 ◼   ► I played an unreasonable amount of Counter-Strike,

01:02:21 ◼   ► both against people in my own dorm,

01:02:23 ◼   ► and across the internet when I was at college.

01:02:25 ◼   ► And again, I miss those days, they were so fun.

01:02:28 ◼   ► John, you had some sort of collegiate

01:02:31 ◼   ► networked gaming experience, didn't you?

01:02:33 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, with the Mac people,

01:02:35 ◼   ► you could do AppleTalk networks with the Phonet thing.

01:02:37 ◼   ► So it was like a little adapter

01:02:38 ◼   ► that let you use phone cord to tie it.

01:02:40 ◼   ► Because there were a lot of Mac, not a lot,

01:02:42 ◼   ► but there were Mac games, there were only Mac games,

01:02:45 ◼   ► that use AppleTalk networking,

01:02:47 ◼   ► and only AppleTalk networking to do their network gaming.

01:02:49 ◼   ► So if you wanted to play those games,

01:02:51 ◼   ► you needed an AppleTalk network,

01:02:52 ◼   ► and nobody had an AppleTalk network.

01:02:54 ◼   ► There were some schools, you'd hear stories of a school,

01:02:56 ◼   ► like, yeah, this school is so bought into Apple stuff,

01:02:58 ◼   ► they have an AppleTalk network in their dorms.

01:03:00 ◼   ► You're like, an AppleTalk network, really?

01:03:01 ◼   ► Anyway, we'd have to make our own in our school.

01:03:03 ◼   ► We weren't that lucky slash unfortunate,

01:03:05 ◼   ► depending on how you view having an AppleTalk network

01:03:07 ◼   ► in your dorm.

01:03:08 ◼   ► AppleTalk was cool in lots of reasons,

01:03:10 ◼   ► but not so cool once the internet came out,

01:03:12 ◼   ► I can tell you that.

01:03:13 ◼   ► But yeah, that Bolo was the old one.

01:03:15 ◼   ► But when I was in school, we were playing,

01:03:17 ◼   ► I think it was Ambrosia Software.

01:03:21 ◼   ► I never knew how to pronounce it,

01:03:22 ◼   ► because no one ever said these words,

01:03:23 ◼   ► and there was no audio on the internet,

01:03:24 ◼   ► but it was A-V-A-R-A.

01:03:26 ◼   ► It was either Avara, or, anyway,

01:03:28 ◼   ► it was like a, you were like a 2D chicken walker mech,

01:03:32 ◼   ► 3D rendered, and you would shoot projectiles out

01:03:34 ◼   ► of the other 2D chicken walker mechs,

01:03:36 ◼   ► in a 3D rendered world.

01:03:37 ◼   ► So it was flat shaded, no textures, but polygons.

01:03:41 ◼   ► And so it was a 3D first person online shooter,

01:03:43 ◼   ► and your movement direction was independent

01:03:46 ◼   ► of your view direction.

01:03:47 ◼   ► So it was novel in that way,

01:03:49 ◼   ► and you were sort of controlling a little vehicle thing.

01:03:52 ◼   ► Anyway, we do that over Apple Talk,

01:03:55 ◼   ► or over various versions of Apple Talk,

01:03:57 ◼   ► tunneled across various things throughout the computer labs,

01:03:59 ◼   ► because to be able to run that,

01:04:01 ◼   ► you needed a bunch of Macs that were powerful enough

01:04:03 ◼   ► to do 3D stuff, mostly in the days before 3D cards.

01:04:06 ◼   ► You needed actually a pretty fast CPU,

01:04:08 ◼   ► and a fancy color screen,

01:04:09 ◼   ► which a lot of Macs didn't have,

01:04:10 ◼   ► 'cause they were black and white, a lot of the older ones,

01:04:13 ◼   ► and also an Apple Talk network.

01:04:15 ◼   ► - Bolo is a video game initially created

01:04:17 ◼   ► for the BBC Micro computer by Stuart Cheshire in 1987.

01:04:20 ◼   ► - You know that guy.

01:04:21 ◼   ► - Yeah, I know that guy, and then later ported to Cheshire,

01:04:24 ◼   ► by Cheshire to the Apple Macintosh.

01:04:25 ◼   ► No frickin' way.

01:04:27 ◼   ► So Stuart works at Apple now,

01:04:29 ◼   ► and is Mr. Discovery, well, not Discovery,

01:04:32 ◼   ► what's the, the MDMS responder?

01:04:34 ◼   ► - Zeroconf, rendezvous.

01:04:35 ◼   ► - Yep, yep, yep.

01:04:37 ◼   ► That was his baby, and he's still at Apple,

01:04:39 ◼   ► as of just a couple of months ago anyway.

01:04:41 ◼   ► So that is super wild.

01:04:42 ◼   ► I didn't realize that was Stuart.

01:04:44 ◼   ► That's super cool.

01:04:44 ◼   ► - You could find people to match against

01:04:46 ◼   ► by going to the chooser where you chose your printer.

01:04:49 ◼   ► - No way, that's absolutely bananas.

01:04:52 ◼   ► That's super cool.

01:04:53 ◼   ► Well, see, now I feel old too,

01:04:54 ◼   ► and now we're all even again.

01:04:56 ◼   ► All right, now that I'm in a better mood

01:04:57 ◼   ► and don't hate you two anymore,

01:04:58 ◼   ► tell me what's exciting about Disk Utility, John.

01:05:01 ◼   ► - Everything, Disk Utility, it's been updated.

01:05:04 ◼   ► - Is this an area where you really want excitement?

01:05:06 ◼   ► Like, it's like-- - That's true.

01:05:07 ◼   ► - If you really want exciting things in Disk Utility,

01:05:09 ◼   ► I mean, last time they touched it, it was not good.

01:05:12 ◼   ► - Yeah, well, that's the problem.

01:05:14 ◼   ► They changed Disk Utility, I forget when,

01:05:16 ◼   ► a couple of years ago now,

01:05:17 ◼   ► and they changed it by essentially,

01:05:19 ◼   ► seemed like it was almost like it was an all new app,

01:05:20 ◼   ► because the UI looked all new,

01:05:22 ◼   ► but all people really cared about was,

01:05:23 ◼   ► hey, where is this feature

01:05:24 ◼   ► that I used to be able to do in Disk Utility?

01:05:25 ◼   ► It's not there anymore.

01:05:27 ◼   ► So the interface was new and looked clean

01:05:29 ◼   ► and was quote-unquote simplified,

01:05:31 ◼   ► but a bunch of features were missing,

01:05:32 ◼   ► and slowly but surely, most of them have come back.

01:05:36 ◼   ► Some of them haven't.

01:05:37 ◼   ► Some of them have left just because of the massive change

01:05:39 ◼   ► in the way Macs boot, especially the M1 Macs.

01:05:42 ◼   ► Like, even on Intel Macs,

01:05:43 ◼   ► they've been changing the way they boot,

01:05:44 ◼   ► adding the T1 and the T2 chip and all that other stuff.

01:05:46 ◼   ► But then with the ARM-based Macs,

01:05:49 ◼   ► the boot process of Macs is totally different

01:05:51 ◼   ► and much more like it is on,

01:05:52 ◼   ► as you can imagine, on the phones and the iPads,

01:05:54 ◼   ► and that impacts what you can and can't do with Disk Utility.

01:05:57 ◼   ► And of course, APFS came out,

01:05:58 ◼   ► which changes everything about the file system

01:06:00 ◼   ► and how it works, and for a while,

01:06:01 ◼   ► Disk Utility didn't have the features to,

01:06:05 ◼   ► didn't under, it couldn't do all the things

01:06:07 ◼   ► that APFS could do,

01:06:08 ◼   ► so you'd have to do them from the command line,

01:06:10 ◼   ► and it's been a long time coming.

01:06:12 ◼   ► But anyway, Disk Utility is getting more and more features,

01:06:14 ◼   ► and this year, finally, in Monterey,

01:06:16 ◼   ► if you open up Disk Utility and select in the sidebar

01:06:20 ◼   ► one of your APFS volumes, you will see at the bottom

01:06:22 ◼   ► a new little section of the UI that shows you,

01:06:25 ◼   ► ta-da, all your snapshots.

01:06:27 ◼   ► And not only does it show you your snapshots,

01:06:29 ◼   ► but you can add and remove snapshots from a GUI.

01:06:32 ◼   ► Hey, imagine that, you don't have this TMutil anymore.

01:06:34 ◼   ► And it also has a bunch of columns,

01:06:36 ◼   ► you can customize the columns and show more of them,

01:06:38 ◼   ► but some of the columns that are included

01:06:39 ◼   ► are something called Tied Mark and Private Size and Size.

01:06:44 ◼   ► And if you mouse over these things

01:06:45 ◼   ► and get help about them,

01:06:46 ◼   ► little tool tip will explain what they mean.

01:06:48 ◼   ► This is trying mightily to explain

01:06:51 ◼   ► how much extra space is taken up by this snapshot.

01:06:56 ◼   ► If I deleted this snapshot, how much space would I get back?

01:06:59 ◼   ► And it has to do with, well, what is the delta

01:07:01 ◼   ► from this snapshot to the previous one?

01:07:03 ◼   ► And what is the Tied Mark of the largest allocation byte,

01:07:08 ◼   ► you know, used by this snapshot?

01:07:10 ◼   ► The definitions are complicated

01:07:12 ◼   ► and it's not particularly clarifying to the average person,

01:07:14 ◼   ► but if you really wanna know some more details,

01:07:16 ◼   ► now there is an actual GUI

01:07:18 ◼   ► to show you information about snapshots.

01:07:20 ◼   ► I hope people don't send other people here to say,

01:07:23 ◼   ► "Hey, if you can't install my software,

01:07:24 ◼   ► "open this utility, go down to the snapshot,

01:07:26 ◼   ► "select everything and hit the minus button."

01:07:28 ◼   ► But at least that's better than telling them,

01:07:29 ◼   ► go to TMutil, delete local snapshots,

01:07:32 ◼   ► and then type a date in the special format.

01:07:35 ◼   ► It's less fraught than going to the command line.

01:07:37 ◼   ► So I'm glad to see Disk Utility expanding

01:07:40 ◼   ► to finally start to actually expose

01:07:42 ◼   ► a lot of the functionality that has been in APFS.

01:07:44 ◼   ► Now, if only the Finder could do a better job

01:07:46 ◼   ► of telling us how much space is really free on our disks,

01:07:48 ◼   ► we'd be making some progress.

01:07:50 ◼   ► - Baby steps.

01:07:51 ◼   ► - I imagine that.

01:07:53 ◼   ► So when there seemed to be a convergence of macOS and iOS,

01:07:58 ◼   ► a lot of Mac fans, including me, got really nervous

01:08:02 ◼   ► because it seemed like bad things could come here,

01:08:04 ◼   ► you know, here be the dragons.

01:08:06 ◼   ► But there are some things that seem really cool

01:08:09 ◼   ► that have been integrated or brought from iOS to macOS,

01:08:13 ◼   ► and here's one of them.

01:08:14 ◼   ► Apparently macOS Monterey allows you to erase a Mac

01:08:16 ◼   ► without needing to reinstall the operating system.

01:08:18 ◼   ► That is super cool.

01:08:20 ◼   ► Seemingly in system preferences,

01:08:22 ◼   ► there's an option to erase all user data

01:08:24 ◼   ► and user installed apps from the system

01:08:25 ◼   ► while maintaining the operating system currently installed.

01:08:28 ◼   ► Because the storage is always encrypted on Mac systems

01:08:30 ◼   ► with Apple Silicon, on the T2 chip or the T2 chip,

01:08:33 ◼   ► the system is instantly and securely erased

01:08:35 ◼   ► by destroying the encryption keys.

01:08:37 ◼   ► Very cool.

01:08:38 ◼   ► - So this was many years in coming,

01:08:40 ◼   ► because like if you remember the path the Mac has traveled,

01:08:43 ◼   ► first it was just like a Mac and you had a boot disk

01:08:45 ◼   ► and everything was on,

01:08:46 ◼   ► and if you erase the disk, everything was gone.

01:08:47 ◼   ► And then they put the operating system

01:08:49 ◼   ► on a separate partition,

01:08:49 ◼   ► and then they said the operating system

01:08:50 ◼   ► is on a separate partition, it's read only.

01:08:52 ◼   ► And then they said the operating system

01:08:53 ◼   ► is on a separate partition, it's read only,

01:08:54 ◼   ► and actually you're booted from a snapshot

01:08:56 ◼   ► that's cryptographically signed.

01:08:57 ◼   ► And at that point, you basically have parity with iOS,

01:09:00 ◼   ► which, and this is what Apple says on their webpage,

01:09:02 ◼   ► the phrase they use,

01:09:03 ◼   ► a phrase that should be familiar to iOS users,

01:09:06 ◼   ► people who are familiar with iPhones or iPads,

01:09:08 ◼   ► erase all content and settings.

01:09:10 ◼   ► That's been an option on our phones forever.

01:09:12 ◼   ► Oh, if I want to get rid of my stuff on the phone,

01:09:15 ◼   ► say I want to give this phone a hand-me-down to my kid,

01:09:17 ◼   ► I want my stuff to be off it,

01:09:18 ◼   ► you just do erase all content and settings.

01:09:20 ◼   ► And what that would be doing on your iOS device

01:09:22 ◼   ► is essentially throwing away the encryption key

01:09:25 ◼   ► for the user data section of the storage.

01:09:30 ◼   ► You didn't have to reinstall the operating system,

01:09:31 ◼   ► because on iOS the operating system

01:09:32 ◼   ► was sealed off somewhere else,

01:09:33 ◼   ► and now the Macs are like that too,

01:09:35 ◼   ► and now you get the advantage.

01:09:36 ◼   ► Now you can essentially wipe your Mac

01:09:39 ◼   ► just as fast as you can wipe your phone.

01:09:41 ◼   ► - Extremely cool stuff.

01:09:42 ◼   ► All right, Jon, tell me about iCloud Private Relay

01:09:45 ◼   ► and how this all works.

01:09:46 ◼   ► - This, I think when we talked about it

01:09:48 ◼   ► in the keynote episode, it was like,

01:09:50 ◼   ► oh, this seems kind of like a VPN,

01:09:51 ◼   ► but it's subtly different than that.

01:09:52 ◼   ► There's been a lot of articles about this,

01:09:54 ◼   ► but I think it was worth touching on briefly.

01:09:55 ◼   ► We'll put a link to Jason Snell's article

01:09:57 ◼   ► where he explains it well.

01:09:58 ◼   ► So to recap what a VPN is,

01:10:01 ◼   ► a VPN is like when you connect,

01:10:04 ◼   ► and you can have a VPN for subsets

01:10:05 ◼   ► of the network or the whole network,

01:10:06 ◼   ► but essentially we're going to tunnel your traffic

01:10:08 ◼   ► over this secure connection

01:10:09 ◼   ► through some servers that we control.

01:10:12 ◼   ► Lots of people's workplaces use them,

01:10:14 ◼   ► so you can tunnel into your work's internal network.

01:10:17 ◼   ► Normally all of your internal work stuff

01:10:20 ◼   ► would be completely invisible

01:10:21 ◼   ► because they use internal IP addresses

01:10:23 ◼   ► that are not publicly routable,

01:10:24 ◼   ► but hey, if you get on the VPN,

01:10:26 ◼   ► it will make a little secure tunnel

01:10:27 ◼   ► with your authentication credentials

01:10:29 ◼   ► so that from your home network

01:10:31 ◼   ► when you're working from home for a year because of COVID,

01:10:34 ◼   ► you can actually get on your work's internal network.

01:10:36 ◼   ► That's what a VPN does.

01:10:37 ◼   ► And like I said, a VPN, you can say,

01:10:38 ◼   ► okay, every piece of traffic that goes to and from my Mac

01:10:41 ◼   ► over the network goes through the VPN,

01:10:43 ◼   ► or you can have, say, only for this subset of addresses

01:10:46 ◼   ► go through the VPN.

01:10:47 ◼   ► You have some flexibility, but that's what a VPN is.

01:10:49 ◼   ► People use VPNs for non-work purposes

01:10:52 ◼   ► to essentially disguise where they're coming from,

01:10:56 ◼   ► disguise who they are, where they're coming from,

01:10:58 ◼   ► because from the perspective,

01:10:59 ◼   ► once you go through the VPN,

01:11:01 ◼   ► the VPN is the thing connecting to the rest of the internet,

01:11:03 ◼   ► and the rest of the internet thinks

01:11:05 ◼   ► I'm getting a connection from whatever this VPN is,

01:11:07 ◼   ► but they don't know who you are as part of the encryption.

01:11:09 ◼   ► So you can make it seem like you live somewhere

01:11:10 ◼   ► where you don't.

01:11:11 ◼   ► If you go through a VPN that's in a different country,

01:11:13 ◼   ► as far as the servers that you're connecting to

01:11:15 ◼   ► are concerned, it looks like you're coming from that country

01:11:16 ◼   ► and not where you really are, so on and so forth.

01:11:19 ◼   ► iCloud Private Relay is not a VPN,

01:11:21 ◼   ► but it's aimed at trying to preserve your privacy

01:11:26 ◼   ► while you browse the web.

01:11:27 ◼   ► So here's the description of how it works.

01:11:28 ◼   ► Instead of using a VPN, which is essentially one single proxy

01:11:31 ◼   ► that you go through,

01:11:33 ◼   ► iCloud Private Relay uses two separate parts here,

01:11:36 ◼   ► one called an ingress proxy

01:11:38 ◼   ► and the one called the egress proxy.

01:11:40 ◼   ► So the ingress proxy is managed by Apple,

01:11:43 ◼   ► and that's the thing that hides your IP address.

01:11:47 ◼   ► You connect to the ingress proxy,

01:11:49 ◼   ► and the ingress proxy sees your IP address

01:11:51 ◼   ► 'cause you're connecting to it.

01:11:51 ◼   ► There's no way, unfortunately,

01:11:53 ◼   ► if again, if you're not on a VPN,

01:11:54 ◼   ► there's no way to avoid that.

01:11:55 ◼   ► The ingress proxy sees your IP address.

01:11:57 ◼   ► But the ingress proxy doesn't see

01:11:59 ◼   ► what you're trying to connect to

01:12:01 ◼   ► because that has been encrypted on your Mac

01:12:02 ◼   ► and sent over the wire.

01:12:03 ◼   ► So the ingress proxy says,

01:12:04 ◼   ► "Okay, well, I know this person's IP address,

01:12:07 ◼   ► "and then I have this encrypted packet

01:12:08 ◼   ► "that says where they're getting to,

01:12:09 ◼   ► "but I don't know what's in that."

01:12:11 ◼   ► And then it passes this information on to the egress proxy,

01:12:14 ◼   ► but when it connects to the egress proxy,

01:12:16 ◼   ► the egress proxy says, "Who's connecting to me?"

01:12:18 ◼   ► And it sees the IP address of the ingress proxy

01:12:21 ◼   ► 'cause that is who's connecting to it.

01:12:23 ◼   ► So as far as the egress proxy is concerned,

01:12:25 ◼   ► "Oh, I'm getting a connection from Apple's ingress server."