ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► but an unclean mouse is funnier and makes people wait longer.

00:00:02 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:00:03 ◼   ► - When you started out with it was gonna be a mouse update,

00:00:06 ◼   ► I was not expecting that it was gonna be

00:00:09 ◼   ► that good of an after show.

00:00:10 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:00:11 ◼   ► - That's true, that's very true.

00:00:12 ◼   ► - That was so much better than I expected. (laughing)

00:00:15 ◼   ► (electronic beeping)

00:00:17 ◼   ► - All right, let's do some pre-show.

00:00:18 ◼   ► Hey, you know what, it is still September,

00:00:20 ◼   ► which means it is Childhood Cancer Awareness Month,

00:00:23 ◼   ► and even though Relay FM and all of you

00:00:26 ◼   ► have absolutely done a phenomenal job

00:00:30 ◼   ► of raising money for St. Jude,

00:00:32 ◼   ► there's always more that can be done.

00:00:33 ◼   ► There's always more.

00:00:34 ◼   ► We are insatiable, just like rampant consumerism,

00:00:37 ◼   ► we are insatiable.

00:00:38 ◼   ► So hey, if you think that it would be crummy

00:00:41 ◼   ► for any child to die because of cancer,

00:00:45 ◼   ► which I think the three of us pretty much do,

00:00:47 ◼   ► you should go to stjude.org/atp,

00:00:49 ◼   ► S-T-J-U-D-E.org/atp,

00:00:52 ◼   ► and you should kick in a little bit of money,

00:00:54 ◼   ► and I will ask Marco in just a moment

00:00:56 ◼   ► to repeat his plea, given what week we are in this month,

00:01:00 ◼   ► but in general, it would be a great thing to do,

00:01:02 ◼   ► especially if you're American,

00:01:03 ◼   ► where our healthcare system is utterly broken,

00:01:06 ◼   ► to please donate a little bit of money.

00:01:08 ◼   ► Any amount of money is perfectly okay.

00:01:11 ◼   ► 'Cause you know why?

00:01:12 ◼   ► Cancer kills more children under the age of 14

00:01:14 ◼   ► than any other disease.

00:01:15 ◼   ► Doctors from all 50 states and around the world,

00:01:18 ◼   ► hello, non-Americans, refer their patients to St. Jude

00:01:21 ◼   ► because they have the world's best survival rates

00:01:23 ◼   ► for some of the most aggressive childhood cancers.

00:01:25 ◼   ► St. Jude provides thousands of free consultations

00:01:28 ◼   ► for doctors treating children worldwide.

00:01:29 ◼   ► So again, non-Americans, this affects you too,

00:01:32 ◼   ► including kids in your community.

00:01:33 ◼   ► So, S-T-J-U-D-E.org/atp, if you please.

00:01:38 ◼   ► Marco, why is this the best possible week

00:01:42 ◼   ► to donate to St. Jude?

00:01:43 ◼   ► Could you remind me, please?

00:01:45 ◼   ► - Well, if you out there, listener,

00:01:47 ◼   ► have just ordered a new iPhone,

00:01:49 ◼   ► and for reasons I've ordered four, but I don't--

00:01:53 ◼   ► - Oh my God!

00:01:54 ◼   ► Spoiler alert!

00:01:55 ◼   ► - It's not, okay, so I ordered a brief diversion.

00:02:00 ◼   ► - No, no, no, no, no, lock it up, lock it up.

00:02:01 ◼   ► Concentrate on St. Jude, that's more important,

00:02:03 ◼   ► and then I promise you we will dig into this later.

00:02:06 ◼   ► - Okay, so listener, if you've ordered

00:02:08 ◼   ► between zero and four iPhones,

00:02:10 ◼   ► I urge you to take whatever you paid for,

00:02:16 ◼   ► say the sales tax, or the case, or the AppleCare,

00:02:22 ◼   ► or if you're generous, all of those.

00:02:24 ◼   ► Duplicate that amount and give that to St. Jude,

00:02:27 ◼   ► because what you've said, by spending that on sales tax,

00:02:30 ◼   ► or a case, or whatever, what you've said is,

00:02:33 ◼   ► this amount of money I can do without.

00:02:35 ◼   ► I didn't even think about it, really,

00:02:37 ◼   ► when planning this purchase.

00:02:38 ◼   ► I looked at Apple's price, it said like,

00:02:40 ◼   ► eight and nine or whatever, and I'm like,

00:02:41 ◼   ► that's what I'm gonna pay, even though at the end of the day

00:02:43 ◼   ► you're walking out of there like 1,200 bucks later, right?

00:02:45 ◼   ► Whatever that margin is, that you can kind of just spend

00:02:48 ◼   ► without too much of a hit to you,

00:02:52 ◼   ► give that to St. Jude if you can.

00:02:54 ◼   ► And I know not everyone's gonna have this,

00:02:55 ◼   ► I know not everyone has that much to spare,

00:02:58 ◼   ► but I also know a lot of you do.

00:03:00 ◼   ► A lot of you out there are fortunate enough

00:03:01 ◼   ► to have that much to spare.

00:03:03 ◼   ► So take what you can and give it to St. Jude.

00:03:05 ◼   ► And this will, I promise you, absolve you

00:03:09 ◼   ► of your consumerism guilt of having just bought

00:03:12 ◼   ► between zero and four iPhones.

00:03:14 ◼   ► So please, listeners, go out there, spend this money,

00:03:17 ◼   ► give this money to St. Jude.

00:03:18 ◼   ► It is the best thing you can do.

00:03:19 ◼   ► As we mentioned before, they also accept cryptocurrency,

00:03:23 ◼   ► and it's way better to give them cryptocurrency

00:03:25 ◼   ► than hold onto it yourself,

00:03:26 ◼   ► because they can turn it into real money.

00:03:29 ◼   ► - That can do things.

00:03:30 ◼   ► - We're gonna hear about this?

00:03:31 ◼   ► - Yeah, we are.

00:03:32 ◼   ► - They can turn it into real money

00:03:33 ◼   ► that is much more environmentally friendly and useful,

00:03:35 ◼   ► and that can actually help research and treat cancer.

00:03:39 ◼   ► That's much better than whatever it's doing

00:03:40 ◼   ► in your BitWallet or whatever.

00:03:42 ◼   ► So whether it's cryptocurrency or whether it's your iPhone

00:03:45 ◼   ► tax and case and AppleCare or whatever else,

00:03:47 ◼   ► please donate to St. Jude.

00:03:48 ◼   ► It is a fantastic cause, and you really,

00:03:52 ◼   ► it makes such a difference in people's lives,

00:03:54 ◼   ► way more of a difference than that iPhone's

00:03:56 ◼   ► gonna make for you.

00:03:57 ◼   ► So please donate if you can.

00:03:59 ◼   ► - Yeah, absolutely, and we should say,

00:04:01 ◼   ► at the time of recording, the fine, fine, fine folks

00:04:03 ◼   ► at 1Password are still the top donors.

00:04:05 ◼   ► I have dispatched some stickers to the 1Password folks.

00:04:08 ◼   ► I know some of them have been received,

00:04:10 ◼   ► so I know they were very happy about that.

00:04:12 ◼   ► - Did you have to give them 475 stickers or whatever?

00:04:14 ◼   ► - No, I did not.

00:04:15 ◼   ► I did not.

00:04:17 ◼   ► But they are leading the charge at nearly $27,000.

00:04:20 ◼   ► But hey, you know what?

00:04:21 ◼   ► It's still September.

00:04:22 ◼   ► It is, even though the podcastathon was last week,

00:04:24 ◼   ► which by the way, you should go watch the video,

00:04:25 ◼   ► it was excellent, but even though that's already done,

00:04:29 ◼   ► it is still September,

00:04:29 ◼   ► it's still Childhood Cancer Awareness Month.

00:04:31 ◼   ► It's not like childhood cancer just disappears

00:04:33 ◼   ► in October, y'all.

00:04:34 ◼   ► It's still there.

00:04:35 ◼   ► So please, anyone who is willing and interested,

00:04:39 ◼   ► if you're, hey, if you have $26,922.05,

00:04:43 ◼   ► you could be the top donor.

00:04:44 ◼   ► It's a small, I can't even say it with a straight face.

00:04:47 ◼   ► It's a small price to pay,

00:04:48 ◼   ► but I will send you stickers if you so desire.

00:04:50 ◼   ► So please, S-T-J-U-D-E.org/ATP, if you please.

00:04:55 ◼   ► And speaking of 1Password, I should note that,

00:04:58 ◼   ► hey, if you are somewhat internet friendly

00:05:01 ◼   ► with the founders of 1Password,

00:05:03 ◼   ► you can get some bugs fixed real fast.

00:05:04 ◼   ► So I complained very gently

00:05:06 ◼   ► about how I couldn't drag documents onto the doc icon,

00:05:09 ◼   ► and that's either already fixed or coming soon.

00:05:12 ◼   ► I complained about the shaky, the,

00:05:15 ◼   ► oh, your password was wrong, shake, and that's been fixed.

00:05:17 ◼   ► So I'm feeling real good about this all of a sudden.

00:05:19 ◼   ► 1Password 8 is working great now, which is very exciting.

00:05:22 ◼   ► - It would be kind of funny if after all this kerfuffle

00:05:27 ◼   ► about Electron and everything,

00:05:28 ◼   ► it would be kind of funny if 1Password ends up being

00:05:31 ◼   ► the nicest Electron app,

00:05:32 ◼   ► and all other Electron apps will use that as an example

00:05:35 ◼   ► of, hey, you know what, it's not so bad to use Electron,

00:05:37 ◼   ► 'cause look at what they could do,

00:05:39 ◼   ► if they actually just ended up making a really good app.

00:05:41 ◼   ► - It is possible.

00:05:42 ◼   ► - It's just 500 megabytes and uses all your RAM.

00:05:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, a small price to pay.

00:05:46 ◼   ► - No, you know what, no, it's not.

00:05:47 ◼   ► That's the thing, like--

00:05:48 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:05:50 ◼   ► - I'm trying to be nice.

00:05:50 ◼   ► - That was sarcasm.

00:05:51 ◼   ► - I'm trying to be nice.

00:05:52 ◼   ► - I'm thinking it was serious.

00:05:53 ◼   ► - No, I know.

00:05:54 ◼   ► - I'm trying to be nice here.

00:05:55 ◼   ► - That's the one, like, okay.

00:05:55 ◼   ► I know that with a lot of care and attention,

00:05:59 ◼   ► you can make an Electron app that usability-wise is fine.

00:06:03 ◼   ► I wouldn't necessarily even say great,

00:06:05 ◼   ► but you can get to the point

00:06:06 ◼   ► where it's fine and nobody cares.

00:06:08 ◼   ► But what they do care about

00:06:09 ◼   ► is how incredibly heavy they still are

00:06:12 ◼   ► in startup time, memory usage, and disk space.

00:06:15 ◼   ► Those three are way worse than native apps most of the time.

00:06:18 ◼   ► And I really, ugh, it makes me sad that,

00:06:22 ◼   ► you know, like as a nerd,

00:06:23 ◼   ► like I actually still care about the size of my app.

00:06:27 ◼   ► My app is well under 10 megs,

00:06:29 ◼   ► depending on how the app thinning process

00:06:31 ◼   ► has gone on your phone or whatever.

00:06:33 ◼   ► Usually it's like, you know, five megs or less or something.

00:06:36 ◼   ► It depends on, you know, how it's happening.

00:06:37 ◼   ► But, like, I love having a small app.

00:06:40 ◼   ► I value that, my customers occasionally notice,

00:06:42 ◼   ► and when they do, they value it.

00:06:44 ◼   ► And it's so nice to know,

00:06:46 ◼   ► even though you're gonna be downloading

00:06:47 ◼   ► multiple gigs of podcasts with my app probably,

00:06:50 ◼   ► that at least the app itself is only like 10 megs.

00:06:52 ◼   ► And I take pride in that, and there are people who notice.

00:06:56 ◼   ► And I also take pride in the fact that

00:06:58 ◼   ► if you really are low on space,

00:07:00 ◼   ► or if you have a small device,

00:07:02 ◼   ► like small disk space device,

00:07:03 ◼   ► that I'm not gonna be making your problem much worse.

00:07:07 ◼   ► It seems like every app out there feels the need,

00:07:10 ◼   ► or feels rather, not the need,

00:07:11 ◼   ► but feels like it's an acceptable compromise

00:07:15 ◼   ► to take 300 megs of space on your phone

00:07:17 ◼   ► or your Mac or whatever.

00:07:18 ◼   ► And that, to me, that sucks.

00:07:20 ◼   ► That is greedy and unnecessary and sloppy.

00:07:23 ◼   ► And honestly, unprofessional.

00:07:26 ◼   ► And I wish that the electrons of the world

00:07:30 ◼   ► and the people who use it

00:07:32 ◼   ► would prioritize that a little bit more.

00:07:34 ◼   ► And one thing that I think would be,

00:07:38 ◼   ► one way to do this would be,

00:07:40 ◼   ► have a subset of Electron that doesn't use Chromium,

00:07:45 ◼   ► or Chrome, whatever the rendering blob is in the backend,

00:07:49 ◼   ► have one that uses the native renderer

00:07:52 ◼   ► on the platform it's running on.

00:07:54 ◼   ► So WebKit on Apple platforms,

00:07:56 ◼   ► whatever the Microsoft thing is on Microsoft platforms.

00:07:59 ◼   ► - Now you're gonna get all the people who are gonna say,

00:08:01 ◼   ► well we can't because WebKit doesn't implement

00:08:03 ◼   ► all of the progressive web application APIs

00:08:06 ◼   ► that we need for Electron.

00:08:07 ◼   ► - I get that, but they could make a wrapper API slash app.

00:08:11 ◼   ► Electron is not just a web browser,

00:08:13 ◼   ► it is a wrapper SDK, whatever.

00:08:16 ◼   ► So they could move that up the stack.

00:08:19 ◼   ► They could actually have a much lighter weight

00:08:24 ◼   ► like core rendering engine,

00:08:26 ◼   ► and still use web technology to make the app,

00:08:30 ◼   ► and just have a little bit more of a shim layer

00:08:32 ◼   ► on top of it.

00:08:33 ◼   ► And I think the benefits of that would pay off greatly.

00:08:35 ◼   ► And so I hope that kind of thing takes off,

00:08:37 ◼   ► because it looks like, look,

00:08:40 ◼   ► we're all gonna be talking about this forever,

00:08:41 ◼   ► but it looks like using web technologies

00:08:44 ◼   ► to make one code base for multiple platform native apps

00:08:47 ◼   ► is here to stay, and is going to be

00:08:49 ◼   ► an increasing part of our world going forward.

00:08:51 ◼   ► So if that's gonna be here to stay,

00:08:53 ◼   ► we might as well make better ones.

00:08:54 ◼   ► 'Cause Electron is garbage,

00:08:56 ◼   ► and I respect the efforts of people like 1Password

00:08:58 ◼   ► who are trying to do a good job with it.

00:09:01 ◼   ► And I know Slack has put a lot of work into this as well.

00:09:04 ◼   ► I respect these companies that they're taking

00:09:06 ◼   ► this massive pile of crap,

00:09:10 ◼   ► and doing something good with it.

00:09:12 ◼   ► But I also hope that we're also putting, as an industry,

00:09:16 ◼   ► an equal or greater amount of effort

00:09:17 ◼   ► into reducing the size of that pile of crap

00:09:19 ◼   ► they have to deal with in the first place.

00:09:20 ◼   ► And so hopefully that moves forward.

00:09:22 ◼   ► Anyway, that's end for Ant, thank you.

00:09:24 ◼   ► - We got a URL in the chat from one of the 1Password folks.

00:09:28 ◼   ► So that's t-a-u-r-i dot studio.

00:09:31 ◼   ► And apparently it's, the slogan on the website is

00:09:33 ◼   ► build smaller, faster, and more secure desktop applications

00:09:36 ◼   ► with a web front end.

00:09:37 ◼   ► So maybe that is like a WebKit powered thing

00:09:39 ◼   ► that you're thinking about.

00:09:40 ◼   ► - Cool.

00:09:41 ◼   ► - 1Password folks seem enthusiastic about it.

00:09:43 ◼   ► You know, when you mentioned like application size,

00:09:44 ◼   ► I'm of two minds about that.

00:09:46 ◼   ► On the one hand, I do the whole thing like of, you know,

00:09:50 ◼   ► when I was a kid, I could get a candy for a nickel.

00:09:52 ◼   ► Like that immediately comes to mind when you talk about

00:09:54 ◼   ► my applications are small.

00:09:56 ◼   ► They're, you know, Overcast is under 10 megabytes.

00:09:58 ◼   ► And I think I have the operating system,

00:10:02 ◼   ► my applications and my documents

00:10:04 ◼   ► on a single 400K floppy disk.

00:10:07 ◼   ► The whole OS, the whole thing, plus Mac paint,

00:10:10 ◼   ► plus all my Mac paint documents, 400 kilobytes.

00:10:14 ◼   ► But yeah, different times.

00:10:15 ◼   ► But on the other side, in the modern era,

00:10:17 ◼   ► of all the sins of Electron, disk space,

00:10:21 ◼   ► I feel like is the lowest on the Mac.

00:10:23 ◼   ► Just because, yes, it's kind of ridiculous

00:10:25 ◼   ► that it's 259 megabytes for 1Password, right?

00:10:29 ◼   ► But in the grand scheme of things,

00:10:31 ◼   ► that is such a spec on even the smallest hard drive,

00:10:36 ◼   ► or SSD or whatever,

00:10:37 ◼   ► because people don't install 10,000 applications.

00:10:40 ◼   ► And for something like 1Password, where it is like,

00:10:42 ◼   ► this isn't just a random application.

00:10:44 ◼   ► This is like an essential application

00:10:46 ◼   ► that I use every day all the time, paying 250 megs,

00:10:51 ◼   ► even though yes, we know from a technical perspective,

00:10:53 ◼   ► it is wasteful.

00:10:54 ◼   ► Paying that price for it is the least of people's concerns.

00:10:57 ◼   ► RAM, much worse, because there is much less RAM.

00:10:59 ◼   ► And RAM, there's tons of contention for, right?

00:11:03 ◼   ► Because you could run all sorts of stuff,

00:11:04 ◼   ► and they all want RAM, and they're all in a way,

00:11:06 ◼   ► and you never quite have enough of it.

00:11:07 ◼   ► Whereas again, you're not gonna install

00:11:09 ◼   ► a whole jillion applications.

00:11:10 ◼   ► Or if you're gonna fill your SSD,

00:11:12 ◼   ► it's gonna be with media files and movies,

00:11:14 ◼   ► and one of those is four gigabytes.

00:11:16 ◼   ► Your stupid 250 megabyte application

00:11:18 ◼   ► is the drop in the bucket.

00:11:20 ◼   ► So I think RAM is a bigger deal.

00:11:22 ◼   ► And then of course, CPU.

00:11:23 ◼   ► CPU is perhaps the biggest deal,

00:11:25 ◼   ► 'cause that burns your battery,

00:11:26 ◼   ► that makes your computer feel slower, right?

00:11:28 ◼   ► So in addressing the sins of Electron,

00:11:31 ◼   ► I would probably tackle them CPU first, memory second,

00:11:34 ◼   ► and disk a distant third.

00:11:36 ◼   ► But I agree that they all need to be addressed,

00:11:37 ◼   ► 'cause it is kind of silly.

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00:12:43 ◼   ► So if there's some kind of weird verification thing

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00:13:31 ◼   ► That's stripe.com to get started today.

00:13:33 ◼   ► Thank you so much to Stripe for sponsoring our show.

00:13:36 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

00:13:39 ◼   ► - Speaking of things from big donors,

00:13:42 ◼   ► one of the side perks of being the biggest donor even

00:13:45 ◼   ► but for a moment is that I will be much more likely

00:13:47 ◼   ► to include your feedback in a future episode.

00:13:50 ◼   ► And this is from the anonymous troll,

00:13:52 ◼   ► self-declared anonymous troll from, I don't know,

00:13:56 ◼   ► it was one of the first big donations subsequent

00:13:59 ◼   ► to the ATP donations.

00:14:01 ◼   ► This was with regard to the satellite capabilities

00:14:03 ◼   ► that were coming in the iPhone 13 but never landed,

00:14:06 ◼   ► which clearly means they abandoned ship.

00:14:08 ◼   ► It was not a rumor at all, right?

00:14:10 ◼   ► 'Cause they would never get that wrong.

00:14:12 ◼   ► But anyways, I was lamenting on ATP a few weeks back.

00:14:17 ◼   ► I guess it was before the event that,

00:14:19 ◼   ► hey, the satellite phone I used many years ago,

00:14:22 ◼   ► the antenna was massive, the phone was massive

00:14:25 ◼   ► and the antenna was massive.

00:14:26 ◼   ► And the anonymous troll pointed out,

00:14:28 ◼   ► hey, there's these things that you can get

00:14:29 ◼   ► that are basically sat phones for consumers

00:14:33 ◼   ► and even more than that, kind of like pagers, if you will.

00:14:36 ◼   ► So there's this thing called the Garmin inReach.

00:14:39 ◼   ► And if you look at it,

00:14:42 ◼   ► there's still a big fat antenna by iPhone standards,

00:14:44 ◼   ► but compared to what I was envisioning,

00:14:46 ◼   ► it is way tiny, super duper tiny, the antenna specifically,

00:14:49 ◼   ► the rest of the devices, about the size you would expect.

00:14:52 ◼   ► But what's cool about this is you can send emails

00:14:54 ◼   ► and text messages and whatnot,

00:14:55 ◼   ► basically anywhere in the world.

00:14:57 ◼   ► And I was looking into it just out of curiosity

00:14:59 ◼   ► and you can get a one and done month service for 15 bucks,

00:15:02 ◼   ► which I don't think is terrible.

00:15:04 ◼   ► I did love, I didn't write it down here in the show notes,

00:15:07 ◼   ► but I did love that they were saying something like,

00:15:09 ◼   ► when you send an email, it can take up to two minutes

00:15:11 ◼   ► to actually connect and send.

00:15:12 ◼   ► Which I mean, granted, it's dialing freaking space,

00:15:16 ◼   ► but at the same time, I thought that was quite funny.

00:15:19 ◼   ► It uses the Iridium satellite network.

00:15:21 ◼   ► And actually a friend of mine,

00:15:23 ◼   ► who Marco has met many years ago,

00:15:25 ◼   ► does this sort, is in a tangential,

00:15:28 ◼   ► like telecommunications space to satellite stuff.

00:15:31 ◼   ► And I was discussing with him

00:15:32 ◼   ► that there are apparently

00:15:33 ◼   ► several different satellite networks

00:15:35 ◼   ► that do this sort of thing.

00:15:36 ◼   ► The one that Garmin uses is Iridium, which is 485 miles up.

00:15:39 ◼   ► And I just thought this was a delightful fun fact.

00:15:42 ◼   ► And I believe I'm reading from Wikipedia here.

00:15:44 ◼   ► I didn't cite the source.

00:15:45 ◼   ► That was my own fault, I'm sorry.

00:15:46 ◼   ► But anyways, due to the shape

00:15:48 ◼   ► of the original Iridium satellite's reflective antennas,

00:15:50 ◼   ► the first generation satellites focused sunlight

00:15:53 ◼   ► on a small area of the Earth's surface

00:15:55 ◼   ► in an incidental manner.

00:15:56 ◼   ► This resulted in a phenomenon called Iridium flares,

00:15:59 ◼   ► whereby the satellite momentarily appeared

00:16:01 ◼   ► as one of the brightest objects in the night sky

00:16:03 ◼   ► and could be seen even during daylight.

00:16:05 ◼   ► - Oh, God.

00:16:06 ◼   ► - I just think that's the wildest story.

00:16:09 ◼   ► I think that's so, well, it's not delightful,

00:16:11 ◼   ► but so delightful.

00:16:12 ◼   ► - At least it wasn't like starting fires,

00:16:14 ◼   ► like a big magnifying glass on the Earth.

00:16:15 ◼   ► - Right?

00:16:16 ◼   ► - If it was, do you think they would tell you?

00:16:18 ◼   ► - Probably not, probably not.

00:16:19 ◼   ► - They'd be like, well, they can't prove that it was us,

00:16:21 ◼   ► so just tell them there's a light flare.

00:16:23 ◼   ► - No. (laughs)

00:16:24 ◼   ► Anyway, I just thought that was super interesting.

00:16:26 ◼   ► And again, it's not really relevant in terms of the iPhone,

00:16:29 ◼   ► but, or at least not this year anyways,

00:16:31 ◼   ► but I was impressed how small the device,

00:16:34 ◼   ► again, compared to what I was envisioning,

00:16:36 ◼   ► and especially the antenna was.

00:16:38 ◼   ► So I thought that was cool.

00:16:40 ◼   ► So every once in a while, I will read something

00:16:42 ◼   ► in the show notes that I know nobody can see,

00:16:44 ◼   ► but I assure you it's there,

00:16:46 ◼   ► and it will make me literally laugh out loud.

00:16:48 ◼   ► And I was looking through the show notes earlier today,

00:16:50 ◼   ► as I try to remember to do,

00:16:51 ◼   ► to kind of get myself prepared

00:16:52 ◼   ► for what we're gonna talk about.

00:16:54 ◼   ► And there's a section of follow-up,

00:16:56 ◼   ► and this entire episode is likely to be follow-up.

00:16:58 ◼   ► It's Jon's favorite episode.

00:16:59 ◼   ► But anyway, the section of follow-up is labeled iPhone,

00:17:01 ◼   ► and the first bullet is as follows.

00:17:04 ◼   ► Thick iPhone is thicc, T-H-I-C-C.

00:17:07 ◼   ► And the best part about this is,

00:17:09 ◼   ► I'm pretty sure this was Jon Syracuse's work.

00:17:11 ◼   ► So Jon, was it you that wrote T-H-I-C-C?

00:17:14 ◼   ► Because that is the most delightful thing

00:17:16 ◼   ► I've seen in a while.

00:17:17 ◼   ► - It was me.

00:17:18 ◼   ► - Can I ask you something, first of all?

00:17:19 ◼   ► When did the two of you first learn that word?

00:17:22 ◼   ► - I don't know, a year or two ago?

00:17:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, many years ago.

00:17:25 ◼   ► - I don't know, not many years ago for me.

00:17:27 ◼   ► - Yeah, mine was like, I can tell you exactly when it was.

00:17:30 ◼   ► It was 2019 at WBC.

00:17:31 ◼   ► I don't wanna say why, 'cause it's not nice,

00:17:35 ◼   ► but that's when I learned the word.

00:17:37 ◼   ► But I'm wondering, do you consider the word thicc

00:17:41 ◼   ► with two Cs, if somebody called you that,

00:17:43 ◼   ► is that a compliment?

00:17:45 ◼   ► - Sure, I'd take it as a compliment, why not?

00:17:47 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:17:48 ◼   ► It's all kind of, it's the kind of thing you can decide.

00:17:50 ◼   ► You can decide whether you think that's a compliment,

00:17:52 ◼   ► and I'm gonna say yes.

00:17:53 ◼   ► I don't think anyone would ever call me that,

00:17:55 ◼   ► but if they did, I would try to take it as a compliment.

00:17:56 ◼   ► - You of all people absolutely not.

00:17:58 ◼   ► - No, I don't think you'd ever get that, Jon.

00:17:59 ◼   ► This is never gonna be a problem you're gonna have.

00:18:00 ◼   ► - I mean, I think they would just call me thicc,

00:18:02 ◼   ► as in thicc in the head,

00:18:03 ◼   ► and I wouldn't take that as a compliment,

00:18:05 ◼   ► but it's kinda hard to know how they're spelling it

00:18:06 ◼   ► when they say it out loud.

00:18:08 ◼   ► - Anyway, I just, I love, I love, I love so much

00:18:11 ◼   ► that you wrote thicc iPhone is thicc.

00:18:13 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:18:14 ◼   ► Makes me so happy.

00:18:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, so Jon, tell me about this.

00:18:18 ◼   ► - Thus begins the avalanche of follow-up,

00:18:20 ◼   ► because we did the Apple event show

00:18:24 ◼   ► the same day as the event,

00:18:25 ◼   ► and so there's a lot of things we didn't know,

00:18:26 ◼   ► and now we know them, and soon you will know them too.

00:18:29 ◼   ► So, the thickness of the phone.

00:18:32 ◼   ► We talked about the camera bump,

00:18:35 ◼   ► and the little plateau, the little camera mesa,

00:18:38 ◼   ► and all the other fretting about that.

00:18:40 ◼   ► A bunch of people have some good science in this now,

00:18:43 ◼   ► so we'll start with Ryan Jones,

00:18:44 ◼   ► who did a tweet with a graph of all iPhones

00:18:47 ◼   ► from the original on that shows

00:18:50 ◼   ► the thickness of the phone body,

00:18:52 ◼   ► the thickness of the rear camera plateau,

00:18:54 ◼   ► and the thickness of the rear camera turret, right?

00:18:57 ◼   ► In different colors in a stacked bar graph.

00:18:59 ◼   ► So like the first three phones,

00:19:00 ◼   ► it's just blue for the phone body,

00:19:02 ◼   ► 'cause there was no camera bump, right?

00:19:03 ◼   ► And then you get up to the six,

00:19:04 ◼   ► and that's the first one with a bump,

00:19:05 ◼   ► but it doesn't have a mesa or a plateau,

00:19:08 ◼   ► it just has the turret, right?

00:19:10 ◼   ► And by the time you get up to the 13 Pro and 13 Pro Max,

00:19:12 ◼   ► there's blue for the body, red for the plateau,

00:19:16 ◼   ► and then pinkish for the camera turret.

00:19:19 ◼   ► So you get to see the overall thickness

00:19:21 ◼   ► of the thickest part,

00:19:22 ◼   ► and also how much of each phone's thickness

00:19:25 ◼   ► is made up by the plateau and the turret or whatever.

00:19:27 ◼   ► Really gives a good perspective on the phone.

00:19:29 ◼   ► You can see how dramatically the phones got skinnier,

00:19:32 ◼   ► down to the, basically the five,

00:19:35 ◼   ► and then they slowly got thicker,

00:19:37 ◼   ► and then they started to get thicker in increments,

00:19:39 ◼   ► and they got thicker and thicker,

00:19:39 ◼   ► and there's still, you know,

00:19:40 ◼   ► there was a couple little dips here,

00:19:41 ◼   ► but anyway, it's a good, check out the graph.

00:19:43 ◼   ► We'll put the link in the show notes,

00:19:44 ◼   ► and Mark will probably make it the chapter arc.

00:19:47 ◼   ► Bottom line is that the,

00:19:49 ◼   ► if measured at the thickest point,

00:19:51 ◼   ► which is of course the camera,

00:19:53 ◼   ► the 13 Pro and 13 Pro Max are the thickest iPhones

00:19:57 ◼   ► since the five, basically.

00:20:01 ◼   ► Actually more than that.

00:20:02 ◼   ► Thickest iPhone since the 3G, I think.

00:20:04 ◼   ► Yeah, that's a big camera bump.

00:20:07 ◼   ► Does any, we don't, none of us have our phones yet, right?

00:20:09 ◼   ► - No, no, as a matter of fact-- - As a matter of fact, no.

00:20:12 ◼   ► - No, don't even.

00:20:13 ◼   ► I would really love to just be in Louisville, Kentucky

00:20:16 ◼   ► right now because both our phones,

00:20:19 ◼   ► spoiler alert, both our phones are now sitting in Louisville

00:20:22 ◼   ► as with probably most Americans' iPhones,

00:20:24 ◼   ► and I really wish I could just kinda swanter on down there

00:20:26 ◼   ► and be like, "Hey guys, you wanna help me out?"

00:20:28 ◼   ► But no, none of us have our phones,

00:20:29 ◼   ► not until, in my case, probably late Friday.

00:20:33 ◼   ► I don't know, Marco, well you probably won't get yours

00:20:35 ◼   ► until after the weekend, right?

00:20:36 ◼   ► - I'm mostly gonna get mine

00:20:37 ◼   ► after it arrives on a boat on Saturday.

00:20:40 ◼   ► - Oh, okay, there you go.

00:20:41 ◼   ► - But yeah.

00:20:42 ◼   ► I do think though, do you think,

00:20:44 ◼   ► I mean, having none of us actually handle these phones yet,

00:20:47 ◼   ► do you think this is a worthy trade-off of,

00:20:51 ◼   ► do you think it's worth making the phone thicker,

00:20:54 ◼   ► however many Cs you spell that with,

00:20:56 ◼   ► for the camera?

00:20:58 ◼   ► Even though the phone body itself is not super thick,

00:21:02 ◼   ► but for the camera to continue to get larger

00:21:04 ◼   ► and protrude out, do you think it's worth it?

00:21:07 ◼   ► 'Cause I gotta say, I do.

00:21:10 ◼   ► To me, this is like,

00:21:11 ◼   ► I mean again, not having handled these yet,

00:21:13 ◼   ► I think this is absolutely worth it.

00:21:16 ◼   ► And even though this one has gotten so much thicker

00:21:19 ◼   ► that even in a case,

00:21:22 ◼   ► the reviewers who have Apple's cases,

00:21:25 ◼   ► even in a case, it doesn't sit flat on a surface anymore.

00:21:28 ◼   ► 'Cause the lens has protruded so far.

00:21:30 ◼   ► - It's not even close.

00:21:31 ◼   ► Yeah, we knew that was gonna be the case.

00:21:33 ◼   ► The only chance it had was that the bump was gonna be so big

00:21:36 ◼   ► that it itself would be a stabilizing factor.

00:21:38 ◼   ► Like for example, imagine the camera bump

00:21:40 ◼   ► went the full width of the phone,

00:21:41 ◼   ► then it would lay stable, not flat,

00:21:43 ◼   ► but it would lay stable at least.

00:21:44 ◼   ► This isn't quite wide enough to do that either from reports.

00:21:48 ◼   ► - Yeah, but still, I'm very happy to see,

00:21:52 ◼   ► when it comes to camera lens and optics

00:21:56 ◼   ► and sensor size and everything else,

00:21:59 ◼   ► it really is limited by how much physical size

00:22:02 ◼   ► you're willing to give something,

00:22:03 ◼   ► and depth is one of the key limits.

00:22:05 ◼   ► Like when you're dealing with these optics,

00:22:07 ◼   ► that's why a lot of Android phones

00:22:08 ◼   ► that have these super zoom things,

00:22:10 ◼   ► they have to use a periscope kind of arrangement

00:22:12 ◼   ► to turn the optics to the side

00:22:14 ◼   ► to just achieve more depth,

00:22:15 ◼   ► to get longer zooms and everything.

00:22:17 ◼   ► For this, Apple's not doing that yet, if ever,

00:22:20 ◼   ► but they're achieving more depth, larger, wider apertures,

00:22:26 ◼   ► larger sensors, and to do that, you need size.

00:22:30 ◼   ► Simple as that.

00:22:31 ◼   ► And so Apple could have said,

00:22:33 ◼   ► "Well, in order to preserve our ultra-thin,

00:22:35 ◼   ► "ultra-light design language for our products,

00:22:38 ◼   ► "we're just not gonna make the cameras bigger,

00:22:41 ◼   ► "beyond a certain limit,

00:22:42 ◼   ► "'cause they would stick out too far."

00:22:43 ◼   ► And instead, they're not saying that.

00:22:45 ◼   ► Instead, they're saying, "You know what?

00:22:46 ◼   ► "No, the camera is so important to people, and to us,

00:22:49 ◼   ► "and to the sales of these devices,

00:22:51 ◼   ► "that we are gonna let it stick out,

00:22:53 ◼   ► "even to a somewhat ridiculous level."

00:22:56 ◼   ► Where it's almost doubling the thickness of the phone

00:22:58 ◼   ► at this point, but it's like,

00:23:00 ◼   ► we're gonna let the camera stick out to a ridiculous level,

00:23:03 ◼   ► because it's that important.

00:23:05 ◼   ► And even though it violates our principles

00:23:08 ◼   ► of perfect physical design in certain ways,

00:23:12 ◼   ► this is important enough to break those expectations.

00:23:15 ◼   ► And so frankly, I am happy that Apple makes that decision.

00:23:18 ◼   ► In this case, if you want a thinner, lighter,

00:23:23 ◼   ► you know, shallower-depth phone in general,

00:23:24 ◼   ► that doesn't have as much of a camera mount

00:23:26 ◼   ► sticking out of the back of it,

00:23:27 ◼   ► you can get the non-Pro ones.

00:23:29 ◼   ► There's two options for you, they're both great.

00:23:31 ◼   ► And if you want the best camera ever,

00:23:33 ◼   ► well, you're gonna have to spend some depth,

00:23:35 ◼   ► and they give you that option.

00:23:36 ◼   ► And that's great, too, and I'm really happy to see

00:23:39 ◼   ► that that's an option.

00:23:41 ◼   ► While I'm ranting about this, by the way,

00:23:43 ◼   ► I wanna do some quick follow-up.

00:23:44 ◼   ► I had it a little bit further down,

00:23:45 ◼   ► but I'll move it up here.

00:23:47 ◼   ► We got a number of people writing in to school us

00:23:51 ◼   ► on lens optics, things, 'cause we had said things

00:23:56 ◼   ► in the event episode about how the apertures

00:24:01 ◼   ► have gotten bigger in certain places,

00:24:02 ◼   ► they've gotten smaller in others,

00:24:04 ◼   ► and I was using that as a measure of quality, image quality.

00:24:09 ◼   ► And a number of people wrote in to tell me

00:24:10 ◼   ► all sorts of stuff, and let me tell you,

00:24:13 ◼   ► about half of you are comically wrong.

00:24:15 ◼   ► It's very easy to learn a little bit about optics

00:24:19 ◼   ► and about lenses, 'cause you bought an SLR once,

00:24:22 ◼   ► and you think you understand everything.

00:24:23 ◼   ► I know, I've been there.

00:24:25 ◼   ► My understanding of this is only slightly higher than you

00:24:29 ◼   ► in certain areas, you half of these people out there,

00:24:32 ◼   ► and I'll let you self-select and decide

00:24:33 ◼   ► which half you're in, but I don't know

00:24:36 ◼   ► that much about it either.

00:24:37 ◼   ► What I do know, though, is that optical quality

00:24:42 ◼   ► has a lot to do with how much light you let in.

00:24:46 ◼   ► And so while, yes, it is possible to have very high quality,

00:24:50 ◼   ► say, f/2.8 lenses, as honestly, almost every professional

00:24:55 ◼   ► working photographer is almost always shooting a lens

00:24:58 ◼   ► that is no faster than f/2.8, 'cause it's almost always

00:25:00 ◼   ► a 24 to 70 or a 70 to 200, like almost all

00:25:03 ◼   ► pro photographers are using those two lenses

00:25:05 ◼   ► most of the time.

00:25:06 ◼   ► So obviously I know that it is possible

00:25:08 ◼   ► to have high quality lenses that are f/2.8.

00:25:11 ◼   ► I also know that both the f numbers and the equivalent optics

00:25:16 ◼   ► and the equivalent background blur amounts

00:25:20 ◼   ► also change with sensor size.

00:25:24 ◼   ► That's why if you compare what f/2.8 looks like

00:25:28 ◼   ► on a full-frame camera, if you compare it up

00:25:31 ◼   ► to what that looks like on a medium format,

00:25:34 ◼   ► or if you compare it down to what looks like

00:25:35 ◼   ► on a crop sensor or down to, say, a phone,

00:25:38 ◼   ► they all look different, because that number

00:25:42 ◼   ► is not the only number that matters.

00:25:43 ◼   ► That number is actually derived from other numbers,

00:25:46 ◼   ► and it all matters, all these numbers mean things.

00:25:50 ◼   ► And so if you think this is gonna work on the phone numbers,

00:25:53 ◼   ► the way it works on your SLR, I'm sorry, but it doesn't.

00:25:56 ◼   ► It's a different, it's a whole different scene here.

00:25:59 ◼   ► And then it's also different because the way

00:26:02 ◼   ► optical quality is achieved, we're not maximizing

00:26:06 ◼   ► all 12 megapixels most of the time.

00:26:08 ◼   ► These lenses do not resolve that sharply,

00:26:11 ◼   ► I would imagine ever, let alone most of the time,

00:26:15 ◼   ► and if they did, they would probably require

00:26:16 ◼   ► a ton of light to do so.

00:26:18 ◼   ► So there's also all sorts of software processing

00:26:22 ◼   ► that's going on here, and the way you give

00:26:24 ◼   ► that software processing more to work with

00:26:26 ◼   ► is by giving it more light and by having those,

00:26:29 ◼   ► having bigger sensor pixels and everything else.

00:26:30 ◼   ► So this is a very complicated issue,

00:26:33 ◼   ► but when I said the f/2.8 aperture of the 77 millimeter

00:26:38 ◼   ► equivalent 3x optical lens on the Pro,

00:26:41 ◼   ► when I'm expressing concern about that not being

00:26:44 ◼   ► a ton of light coming in, that concern is warranted,

00:26:48 ◼   ► and I guarantee you when we see those images,

00:26:50 ◼   ► we will see, and I think the reviews do somewhat

00:26:52 ◼   ► back this up, we will see that in medium to low light,

00:26:55 ◼   ► you're not gonna get what you really want

00:26:58 ◼   ► out of that 3x lens.

00:27:00 ◼   ► That being said, I am really looking forward

00:27:03 ◼   ► to having it anyway because that's a lot of reach,

00:27:06 ◼   ► and based on both the reviews and common sense,

00:27:08 ◼   ► when you give it a good amount of light, it looks great.

00:27:11 ◼   ► So it's gonna be great, but do a little research

00:27:15 ◼   ► before you make assumptions about SLR camera lens

00:27:18 ◼   ► equivalents, especially in regard to aperture

00:27:21 ◼   ► because it does not work the same way.

00:27:23 ◼   ► But more light coming in is better,

00:27:25 ◼   ► and so the f/2.8 equivalent 3x lens

00:27:29 ◼   ► is not gonna produce as good images as that 1x lens

00:27:32 ◼   ► with its whatever it is, f/1.6, whatever it is, I forgot,

00:27:35 ◼   ► but it's not gonna be as good as that

00:27:38 ◼   ► because it's not letting in nearly as much light,

00:27:39 ◼   ► and you're gonna have to do a lot more ISO hiking

00:27:42 ◼   ► to get acceptable shutter speeds for stopping motion.

00:27:46 ◼   ► It's gonna be a whole thing.

00:27:47 ◼   ► As you know, SLR people, as you know,

00:27:52 ◼   ► you have to really crank up the ISO

00:27:53 ◼   ► and then do more noise reduction to capture stuff

00:27:57 ◼   ► with smaller apertures.

00:27:58 ◼   ► So anyway, all that is to say, it's complicated,

00:28:02 ◼   ► and the 3x lens is not gonna be as good

00:28:03 ◼   ► as you think necessarily, but it's still gonna be great

00:28:05 ◼   ► to have it, and I'm looking forward to it.

00:28:07 ◼   ► - To drive that point home, I just put a picture

00:28:09 ◼   ► in both the chat and our Slack

00:28:10 ◼   ► if you wanna take a look at it.

00:28:11 ◼   ► This is a picture where you will see,

00:28:13 ◼   ► I think what most people recognize as background blur.

00:28:16 ◼   ► This photograph was taken at f/2.8 on an APS-C size sensor.

00:28:21 ◼   ► It's not even a full-frame sensor.

00:28:23 ◼   ► Try taking a picture at f/2.8 with your iPhone

00:28:26 ◼   ► when you get it, you will not get these results.

00:28:29 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:28:30 ◼   ► - No, and this also, I mean, this looks like it's awfully,

00:28:33 ◼   ► I mean, to get that amount of separation at f/2.8,

00:28:35 ◼   ► I'm gonna eyeball this and just say it's probably

00:28:36 ◼   ► something like a 90 millimeter equivalent maybe?

00:28:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, very close, very close.

00:28:42 ◼   ► It is, I think if I'm reading the metadata

00:28:45 ◼   ► in the Glass app correctly, it is 62 millimeters,

00:28:48 ◼   ► but that's on APS-C, so it's 93 millimeters full-frame.

00:28:52 ◼   ► - Yes, all right. - That's very impressive.

00:28:55 ◼   ► Just a quick aside related to this,

00:28:57 ◼   ► I think we might've brought this up on the show

00:28:59 ◼   ► a couple of months back,

00:29:00 ◼   ► but there's an individual whose name

00:29:02 ◼   ► I will absolutely butcher,

00:29:03 ◼   ► and I will not even try to pronounce it,

00:29:05 ◼   ► but this person has written or created

00:29:09 ◼   ► some really phenomenal interactive animated web pages.

00:29:12 ◼   ► One is about cameras and lenses and how they work and so on,

00:29:16 ◼   ► and another is about the internal combustion engine.

00:29:18 ◼   ► Both of these are very, very long and involved

00:29:21 ◼   ► and fascinating and well worth your time.

00:29:23 ◼   ► So if you wanna learn more about how cameras and lenses work

00:29:26 ◼   ► or internal combustion engines,

00:29:28 ◼   ► we'll put links in the show notes

00:29:28 ◼   ► because they are very, very, very well done.

00:29:31 ◼   ► - All right, we need to talk more about phone thickness

00:29:33 ◼   ► because believe it or not,

00:29:34 ◼   ► we're not even done with that first item.

00:29:35 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, well, and actually to answer Marco's question,

00:29:37 ◼   ► which was, you know--

00:29:39 ◼   ► - Oh, that's right, I haven't answered his question, too.

00:29:41 ◼   ► - I'm the chief derailleur-in-chief.

00:29:42 ◼   ► - Yeah, we're never gonna get through this episode.

00:29:44 ◼   ► Oh my gosh.

00:29:45 ◼   ► Anyways, your question was basically

00:29:48 ◼   ► is this increased thickness worth it,

00:29:50 ◼   ► specifically with regard to the camera,

00:29:53 ◼   ► and you know, I was thinking about it as you were talking,

00:29:55 ◼   ► and early on, when anyone would agree

00:29:59 ◼   ► that iPhone cameras were improving but were not great,

00:30:04 ◼   ► you know, this is, I couldn't put my finger on exactly

00:30:07 ◼   ► when I feel like they moved from garbage

00:30:10 ◼   ► to at least passable, and then from passable to good,

00:30:14 ◼   ► I would say has only been in the last two,

00:30:16 ◼   ► maybe four years, tops, but anyway--

00:30:18 ◼   ► - When did they add autofocus?

00:30:20 ◼   ► Was that like the iPhone 4 or 4S?

00:30:23 ◼   ► - I don't recall.

00:30:23 ◼   ► - I would say that was a huge jump.

00:30:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, it's been better every year,

00:30:28 ◼   ► but certainly, you know, you look at early Instagram pictures

00:30:31 ◼   ► which granted, you know, Instagram butchered them

00:30:32 ◼   ► in its own ways, but even the source

00:30:34 ◼   ► of an Instagram picture of that era,

00:30:35 ◼   ► you know, a 3G, 3GS, et cetera,

00:30:37 ◼   ► they were not great photographs, but anyways,

00:30:40 ◼   ► in my personal opinion, their iPhone photos

00:30:44 ◼   ► are pretty darn good.

00:30:45 ◼   ► They're not perfect, but they're pretty darn good,

00:30:47 ◼   ► especially if you're not trying to do something

00:30:48 ◼   ► super computational like portrait mode or whatever.

00:30:50 ◼   ► Anyway, so with that in mind, now that the camera,

00:30:54 ◼   ► or cameras, I guess I should say,

00:30:56 ◼   ► are very, very, very good,

00:30:58 ◼   ► I think it is worth the increased thickness.

00:31:00 ◼   ► I am okay with my thick boy iPhone

00:31:02 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:31:04 ◼   ► if it's for either battery life, actually,

00:31:06 ◼   ► is another thing, battery life or for improved camera,

00:31:10 ◼   ► I don't know, fidelity, quality, whatever.

00:31:12 ◼   ► If it was thicker for other silly reasons,

00:31:15 ◼   ► like, I don't know, just to make up a BS idea,

00:31:17 ◼   ► like what if the taptic engine was like super thick

00:31:21 ◼   ► and they said, well, screw it,

00:31:22 ◼   ► we really want this super fancy taptic engine,

00:31:24 ◼   ► now we gotta make everything big too.

00:31:26 ◼   ► That would not be worth it to me,

00:31:27 ◼   ► that juice is not worth the squeeze,

00:31:28 ◼   ► but if you tell me I gotta make this camera plateau

00:31:30 ◼   ► with, I love camera turret as well,

00:31:32 ◼   ► the plateau with the turrets on top,

00:31:36 ◼   ► you know, again, not having handled these,

00:31:38 ◼   ► I think that juice is worth the squeeze,

00:31:40 ◼   ► I think that is worth it to me,

00:31:42 ◼   ► because as much as I do love having what I call

00:31:45 ◼   ► a big camera, which is actually not that big a camera,

00:31:47 ◼   ► I do love having it, but it's unwieldy

00:31:49 ◼   ► and I don't have it with me all the time

00:31:51 ◼   ► and we've made this point a zillion times on this show

00:31:53 ◼   ► and we're not the only ones to make it,

00:31:54 ◼   ► but, you know, having an iPhone or any phone

00:31:57 ◼   ► that shoots decent pictures in your pocket always

00:32:00 ◼   ► is amazing if you have pets, if you have kids,

00:32:02 ◼   ► or if you're just like documenting your life

00:32:04 ◼   ► even without either of those things.

00:32:06 ◼   ► So yeah, I think it's absolutely worth it,

00:32:07 ◼   ► especially these days when the cameras

00:32:09 ◼   ► are getting so darn good.

00:32:10 ◼   ► Jon, what's your two cents?

00:32:11 ◼   ► - So I agree that it's worth it

00:32:13 ◼   ► for the line of cameras they put out this year,

00:32:15 ◼   ► because it separates the pro from the regular

00:32:17 ◼   ► and like Marco said, if you don't like that big lump,

00:32:19 ◼   ► you have a choice.

00:32:20 ◼   ► The other one that is in most other ways

00:32:23 ◼   ► just as good a phone has a slimmer camera

00:32:26 ◼   ► and still the slimmer camera is also better

00:32:28 ◼   ► than it was last year, like the One X camera

00:32:30 ◼   ► has a bigger aperture, right?

00:32:32 ◼   ► So, and they have sensor shift and all that, right?

00:32:34 ◼   ► So it's great for this lineup, they made the right choice.

00:32:37 ◼   ► As I said in the last show, again,

00:32:40 ◼   ► still never having handled these phones,

00:32:42 ◼   ► my wife's phone is on the way, she got the 13 Pro.

00:32:46 ◼   ► I think their problem, Apple's problem,

00:32:49 ◼   ► they have two problems here.

00:32:49 ◼   ► One is I think they're at the natural end of the design

00:32:53 ◼   ► of putting the cameras in the upper left corner

00:32:55 ◼   ► of the phone, they need to revisit that,

00:32:56 ◼   ► especially on the 13 Pro, the camera plateau

00:33:00 ◼   ► is more than half the width of the phone,

00:33:02 ◼   ► it is no longer in the corner in any sense,

00:33:04 ◼   ► it is just, it is on the back of the phone, that's true,

00:33:07 ◼   ► and it's not centered, that's true,

00:33:09 ◼   ► but it's not really in the corner,

00:33:10 ◼   ► so they need to revisit that.

00:33:11 ◼   ► And the second problem they have is,

00:33:13 ◼   ► if they follow a typical Apple pattern

00:33:15 ◼   ► of passing this down the line,

00:33:17 ◼   ► this big giant plateau starts to become a problem

00:33:21 ◼   ► when it filters down and you no longer have

00:33:24 ◼   ► a slim camera choice, and to that end,

00:33:26 ◼   ► Marco briefly alluded to this

00:33:28 ◼   ► when we were talking about this before,

00:33:30 ◼   ► the rumors are that the iPhone 14 will go

00:33:32 ◼   ► with an internal periscoped system,

00:33:35 ◼   ► like that they can't, they're not gonna make it any thicker,

00:33:37 ◼   ► that like if you need to get thicker than this,

00:33:39 ◼   ► we need to do a periscope,

00:33:40 ◼   ► and people are wondering what that looks like,

00:33:41 ◼   ► like a periscope on a submarine

00:33:42 ◼   ► where you're looking into this little tube

00:33:45 ◼   ► and then there's a tube vertically,

00:33:46 ◼   ► and then it goes out the top,

00:33:48 ◼   ► imagine that big vertical tube in a submarine periscope

00:33:50 ◼   ► is laying down inside your phone,

00:33:52 ◼   ► it's to be able to get more distance

00:33:53 ◼   ► between the sensor and the place where the light comes in,

00:33:56 ◼   ► and rather than getting more distance

00:33:58 ◼   ► by making this plateau taller and taller,

00:34:00 ◼   ► they get distance by laying it down

00:34:02 ◼   ► and using a series of mirrors inside the phone.

00:34:05 ◼   ► Who knows, we're year out,

00:34:06 ◼   ► are year out rumors worth anything,

00:34:08 ◼   ► it's hard enough to get the rumors

00:34:09 ◼   ► when you're six months out,

00:34:11 ◼   ► but for what it's worth,

00:34:13 ◼   ► the year out rumors about the iPhone 14

00:34:15 ◼   ► show it with a flat back,

00:34:17 ◼   ► and the only way you're gonna get a flat back on a phone,

00:34:20 ◼   ► on the top end Apple phone,

00:34:21 ◼   ► is if they do periscope stuff,

00:34:22 ◼   ► 'cause it's not like they're gonna say,

00:34:23 ◼   ► oh, we changed our mind,

00:34:24 ◼   ► we're going back to crappy cameras,

00:34:26 ◼   ► like they're not gonna do that,

00:34:27 ◼   ► so that's a possibility

00:34:29 ◼   ► in terms of where do they go from here,

00:34:31 ◼   ► they've maxed out the plateau,

00:34:32 ◼   ► but I think the problem is like,

00:34:34 ◼   ► if that happens, like okay,

00:34:36 ◼   ► and then the iPhone 14 Pro has a flat back

00:34:38 ◼   ► and they're all periscope lenses,

00:34:40 ◼   ► I don't wanna see this giant lump wandering down the line

00:34:44 ◼   ► and just becoming like,

00:34:45 ◼   ► 'cause I don't want it to feel like punishment

00:34:47 ◼   ► to get the cheaper phone,

00:34:48 ◼   ► like oh, I get the cheaper phone

00:34:49 ◼   ► and it's got this giant ugly camera bump,

00:34:50 ◼   ► the new ones have better cameras

00:34:52 ◼   ► and they're flat on the back, right?

00:34:53 ◼   ► Because getting the current 13 non-Pro

00:34:56 ◼   ► doesn't feel like a punishment,

00:34:58 ◼   ► because it's got a good camera,

00:34:59 ◼   ► it's better than last year's camera

00:35:00 ◼   ► in a bunch of important ways,

00:35:02 ◼   ► and it's slimmer,

00:35:03 ◼   ► so it's a compromise that makes more sense to me,

00:35:05 ◼   ► and by the way, the final bit in here,

00:35:07 ◼   ► Adrian Weckler had a photograph,

00:35:09 ◼   ► I'm not sure if he took this photo

00:35:10 ◼   ► or if it's from Apple's website,

00:35:11 ◼   ► but it shows, I think, what is this,

00:35:14 ◼   ► the 13 Pro versus the 12 Pro side by side,

00:35:18 ◼   ► and you can see that of course, yes,

00:35:20 ◼   ► the 13 Pro camera bump is bigger than 12 Pro,

00:35:22 ◼   ► we knew that already,

00:35:23 ◼   ► but also the 13 Pro itself,

00:35:24 ◼   ► the body is a little bit thicker as well.

00:35:27 ◼   ► That's true of almost all the phones this year,

00:35:29 ◼   ► they're marginally thicker,

00:35:31 ◼   ► the body part is marginally thicker than the other ones,

00:35:34 ◼   ► and that's a move that I can get behind,

00:35:36 ◼   ► because it gives you more room for more battery,

00:35:38 ◼   ► maybe more room for that 120 hertz screen,

00:35:40 ◼   ► who knows, whatever they need more room for,

00:35:42 ◼   ► by all means, yes, please,

00:35:43 ◼   ► take the extra half a millimeter,

00:35:45 ◼   ► nobody will notice, nobody will care,

00:35:47 ◼   ► and yes, the phone gets a little bit heavier or whatever,

00:35:49 ◼   ► but the battery life is well worth it,

00:35:51 ◼   ► so to answer Mark's question again,

00:35:53 ◼   ► yeah, totally worth it this year,

00:35:54 ◼   ► but I worry about the future,

00:35:55 ◼   ► and I really do hope that they come up

00:35:57 ◼   ► with some kind of solution,

00:35:58 ◼   ► it doesn't have to be Periscope,

00:35:59 ◼   ► they could decide the solution is

00:36:01 ◼   ► instead of having a camera lump,

00:36:02 ◼   ► we'll have a camera top half of the phone,

00:36:04 ◼   ► which like I said, lots of Android phones

00:36:05 ◼   ► do that right now,

00:36:06 ◼   ► and I think that's perfectly fine too,

00:36:07 ◼   ► like where your phone will have a thick half

00:36:09 ◼   ► and a thin half,

00:36:11 ◼   ► that will lay flat, not flat,

00:36:12 ◼   ► but that will lay stably on a table,

00:36:14 ◼   ► and it gives you even more room to work with,

00:36:16 ◼   ► who knows what they could do with all that space,

00:36:17 ◼   ► so I say go for it.

00:36:19 ◼   ► - Moving right along, the folks at Halide,

00:36:22 ◼   ► I think that's how you pronounce it,

00:36:24 ◼   ► I might have that wrong,

00:36:25 ◼   ► but anyways, it's a really good third party camera app,

00:36:28 ◼   ► they put together a evolution of the iPhone camera bumps

00:36:32 ◼   ► on Twitter, which we will link to,

00:36:34 ◼   ► which was very well done,

00:36:35 ◼   ► and unsurprisingly very thoughtfully designed,

00:36:38 ◼   ► and it's worth taking a look at,

00:36:39 ◼   ► I thought it was pretty cool.

00:36:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's like a monochrome line art

00:36:41 ◼   ► that I assume is to scale showing the evolution

00:36:44 ◼   ► of the camera bumps,

00:36:44 ◼   ► 'cause the iPhone 6 was the first one

00:36:46 ◼   ► to have a camera that stuck out from the phone at all

00:36:49 ◼   ► in any way, and you could see how it went

00:36:50 ◼   ► from one little thing sticking out,

00:36:52 ◼   ► to two, to two vertically, to a giant square,

00:36:54 ◼   ► to a giant square that looked like a stove,

00:36:56 ◼   ► and like, you know, you could see,

00:36:57 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:36:58 ◼   ► yeah, things are getting,

00:37:00 ◼   ► you know, you're getting more and more circles,

00:37:02 ◼   ► 'cause the LiDAR sensor is there,

00:37:03 ◼   ► and the flash is on the little plateau, yeah.

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00:39:15 ◼   ► - All right, moving right along and away from the cameras,

00:39:22 ◼   ► Jeff Hackworth writes, "As expected, the iPhone 13 devices

00:39:25 ◼   ► have the same screen sizes and safe areas

00:39:26 ◼   ► as the equivalently named iPhone 12.

00:39:29 ◼   ► The notch is narrower and a tiny bit taller,

00:39:31 ◼   ► but the safe areas were far enough away

00:39:33 ◼   ► for the safe areas to remain unchanged."

00:39:36 ◼   ► So the safe areas, this is parts of the screen

00:39:39 ◼   ► that Apple says, "Hey, you probably don't wanna put stuff

00:39:42 ◼   ► there because it's up in the horns, if you will,

00:39:45 ◼   ► or generally areas where you don't wanna put

00:39:47 ◼   ► your user interface, but you can do it

00:39:49 ◼   ► if you really, really want to."

00:39:50 ◼   ► And we had, not just the three of us, but in general,

00:39:53 ◼   ► the people had wondered, well,

00:39:54 ◼   ► are the safe areas gonna be different,

00:39:56 ◼   ► which would cause developers to potentially

00:39:58 ◼   ► have to rejigger their user interfaces,

00:40:00 ◼   ► and according to Jeff, no, that is not the case.

00:40:02 ◼   ► And there are some images in the tweet

00:40:04 ◼   ► which we will put in the show notes.

00:40:06 ◼   ► - Yeah, and to be clear, the system frameworks,

00:40:08 ◼   ► like the system navigation bars and everything,

00:40:10 ◼   ► they all automatically stay out of the safe areas,

00:40:13 ◼   ► and so you would only, this would actually only be a problem

00:40:17 ◼   ► if you would really heavily customize an interface

00:40:21 ◼   ► or interface controller to manually avoid the safe areas

00:40:25 ◼   ► and had hard-coded their values

00:40:27 ◼   ► instead of just calling the system and saying,

00:40:28 ◼   ► "Whatever the top safe area inside is,

00:40:30 ◼   ► move the bar down this amount,"

00:40:31 ◼   ► or "Add as much padding," whatever.

00:40:33 ◼   ► And not only do most apps not do that,

00:40:35 ◼   ► but it's really easy to code that correctly. (laughs)

00:40:40 ◼   ► To do it the wrong way is actually more work,

00:40:42 ◼   ► so most apps will have no problems whatsoever

00:40:45 ◼   ► and you won't even notice.

00:40:46 ◼   ► - All right, Robert Spivak writes,

00:40:47 ◼   ► "As a techie amateur photographer,

00:40:49 ◼   ► I think the ability to shoot in ProRes,

00:40:50 ◼   ► even at 30 frames per second, is awesome for a simple reason.

00:40:53 ◼   ► I can continue to learn about color grading

00:40:56 ◼   ► while actually being able to do it on a totally flat video

00:40:59 ◼   ► without buying a $1,000 external recorder

00:41:00 ◼   ► for my already multi-thousand dollar

00:41:02 ◼   ► quote-unquote big camera.

00:41:04 ◼   ► Corollary to your reality check on Hollywood and indie films

00:41:07 ◼   ► being shot on the iPhone,

00:41:08 ◼   ► it's not one guy with an iPhone running around,

00:41:10 ◼   ► it's an entire expensive film crew

00:41:11 ◼   ► with as many as 10, 20, or even 50 or more iPhones,

00:41:15 ◼   ► and they solve the problems of file transfer speed

00:41:19 ◼   ► and downtime using brute force.

00:41:21 ◼   ► Throw money at the problem, get more phones."

00:41:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's a typical movie production way to do it.

00:41:25 ◼   ► Like, oh, it takes long to get every other phone,

00:41:27 ◼   ► what are we gonna do?

00:41:28 ◼   ► 50 phones and a bunch of people, done.

00:41:31 ◼   ► Yes, it will take hours to get the footage off,

00:41:34 ◼   ► but we have an intern for that

00:41:35 ◼   ► and another intern for another one,

00:41:36 ◼   ► another one just bring me a new,

00:41:37 ◼   ► for a refresh iPhone, refresh one terabyte iPhone.

00:41:40 ◼   ► The cost of that is nothing compared to the cost

00:41:42 ◼   ► of like one red camera.

00:41:43 ◼   ► The thing about ProRes being like,

00:41:46 ◼   ► oh, it doesn't seem like it's a worthwhile thing,

00:41:48 ◼   ► as a learning tool, that totally makes sense.

00:41:50 ◼   ► Like, what if you wanna learn about color grading?

00:41:52 ◼   ► What's the cheapest way you can do that?

00:41:53 ◼   ► Now, one of the cheapest and most convenient ways to do it

00:41:56 ◼   ► is actually with an iPhone.

00:41:57 ◼   ► You do have to use Apple's native editing apps,

00:42:01 ◼   ► because I don't think third-party ones

00:42:02 ◼   ► know about this whole,

00:42:04 ◼   ► well, I guess the ProRes is fine,

00:42:05 ◼   ► they don't know about the depth thing,

00:42:07 ◼   ► which I would argue that you shouldn't bother

00:42:09 ◼   ► trying to learn if you're into serious filmmaking,

00:42:11 ◼   ► 'cause it's not really relevant.

00:42:12 ◼   ► But yeah, for color grading,

00:42:13 ◼   ► the fact that you've got a little tiny thing

00:42:14 ◼   ► that can shoot ProRes is kind of cool.

00:42:17 ◼   ► - All right, battery sizes are going up.

00:42:18 ◼   ► We've made a few mentions of this already,

00:42:20 ◼   ► and The Verge had a really nice chart

00:42:22 ◼   ► with the new phone, what the capacity is,

00:42:25 ◼   ► what its direct predecessor was,

00:42:27 ◼   ► and then what the increase in percent increase were.

00:42:29 ◼   ► So the 13 mini went up 9%,

00:42:32 ◼   ► the 13 went up 15%,

00:42:33 ◼   ► the 13 Pro 11%, 13 Pro Max, 18.5%.

00:42:38 ◼   ► Hoo boy.

00:42:39 ◼   ► - Those are some big batteries.

00:42:40 ◼   ► I mean, we're starting to see the results now,

00:42:42 ◼   ► like the reviews coming out.

00:42:44 ◼   ► But the battery increases are no joke.

00:42:47 ◼   ► And in particular, I wish I had pulled this stat,

00:42:49 ◼   ► I didn't get a chance to do it.

00:42:51 ◼   ► Gruber had in his review.

00:42:53 ◼   ► On the Pro phones, the 13 Pro and Pro Max

00:42:57 ◼   ► that have the high refresh displays,

00:43:00 ◼   ► they support ProMotion.

00:43:02 ◼   ► When ProMotion, well, when 120 hertz came to Android phones,

00:43:05 ◼   ► very often there was an option to turn it off

00:43:07 ◼   ► because it could really drain your battery

00:43:08 ◼   ► if you left on 120 hertz all the time, right?

00:43:11 ◼   ► And so like, oh, these Pro phones,

00:43:13 ◼   ► they've got 128 hertz 'cause it's a Pro feature,

00:43:15 ◼   ► but boy, I'm worried about battery life.

00:43:17 ◼   ► Well, as we discussed last time,

00:43:19 ◼   ► yes, they go up to 120 hertz,

00:43:20 ◼   ► but they also have variable refresh rate,

00:43:22 ◼   ► which can save you a lot of energy.

00:43:24 ◼   ► And the place where that shows up in dramatic fashion

00:43:26 ◼   ► is if you're, let's say,

00:43:28 ◼   ► sitting on public transportation

00:43:30 ◼   ► or a plane flight or something,

00:43:31 ◼   ► watching a movie on your iPhone.

00:43:33 ◼   ► Movies, most movies, unless you're Peter Jackson,

00:43:36 ◼   ► are at 24 or 30 frames per second.

00:43:39 ◼   ► And when you're watching a movie

00:43:41 ◼   ► with a frame rate like that,

00:43:43 ◼   ► the Pro phones will refresh the screen 30 times a second

00:43:47 ◼   ► instead of 60 or 120 or whatever.

00:43:49 ◼   ► Whereas if you watch it on the non-Pro phone

00:43:51 ◼   ► without ProMotion, they're at 60 hertz all the time.

00:43:54 ◼   ► So every single frame is being refreshed

00:43:56 ◼   ► onto the display twice pointlessly

00:43:57 ◼   ► because there's only 30 frames per second in the movie,

00:44:00 ◼   ► but your phone is like 60, 60,

00:44:01 ◼   ► you know, doing 60 frames per second.

00:44:03 ◼   ► And so the difference,

00:44:05 ◼   ► hopefully Casey has looked it up by now,

00:44:06 ◼   ► the difference in streaming video view time

00:44:10 ◼   ► for the 13 Pro against the 12 Pro is dramatic.

00:44:13 ◼   ► I think it might be double or close to double.

00:44:16 ◼   ► - It almost doubled it.

00:44:17 ◼   ► - Almost doubled your,

00:44:19 ◼   ► so if you're watching, it's like how many hours of movies

00:44:21 ◼   ► can I watch on this plane flying on my phone

00:44:22 ◼   ► before my battery's drained?

00:44:24 ◼   ► Almost doubling for an 11% battery size increase.

00:44:29 ◼   ► How do they do that?

00:44:30 ◼   ► Don't refresh the screen so much.

00:44:32 ◼   ► 'Cause when you're watching video,

00:44:32 ◼   ► that's basically all you're doing.

00:44:34 ◼   ► It's like decompressing the video

00:44:36 ◼   ► and even doing the networking

00:44:37 ◼   ► is nothing for the A15 system on a chip.

00:44:40 ◼   ► It's not even, it's like ho-hum, it's like yawning, right?

00:44:43 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:44:44 ◼   ► Because they've got hardware decoders

00:44:45 ◼   ► for the codecs that are supported,

00:44:46 ◼   ► like it's extremely battery efficient.

00:44:48 ◼   ► The most expensive thing that you're doing

00:44:50 ◼   ► is running the screen and presumably playing audio.

00:44:54 ◼   ► And given that they're basically,

00:44:55 ◼   ► they can probably, it probably takes straightforwardly

00:44:58 ◼   ► half the energy to refresh at 30 frames per second

00:45:00 ◼   ► instead of 60 and everything else is a rounding error.

00:45:03 ◼   ► So if you're worried, I wanna get the Pro phone,

00:45:05 ◼   ► it's got all these cool features,

00:45:06 ◼   ► but it isn't gonna take a hit in battery life.

00:45:08 ◼   ► It's the opposite.

00:45:08 ◼   ► If you pay more for the Pro phone,

00:45:10 ◼   ► depending on what you're doing,

00:45:11 ◼   ► you may get dramatically better battery life

00:45:14 ◼   ► if you're really taking advantage of the screen refresh.

00:45:17 ◼   ► And as we said last week,

00:45:17 ◼   ► the same goes for if you're just looking at a webpage

00:45:20 ◼   ► and not scrolling.

00:45:21 ◼   ► It's refreshing at 10 hertz instead of 60.

00:45:24 ◼   ► That's a big battery savings.

00:45:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, so reading from Gruber's review,

00:45:28 ◼   ► the 13 mini went from 10 hours to 13.

00:45:31 ◼   ► The 13 went from 11 to 15, but here we go, buckle up.

00:45:36 ◼   ► The 13 Pro from 11 hours on the 12 Pro

00:45:39 ◼   ► to 20 hours on the 13 Pro.

00:45:43 ◼   ► And then the Pro Max goes from 12 hours on the 12 Pro Max

00:45:46 ◼   ► to 25 hours on the 13 Pro Max.

00:45:49 ◼   ► So you could sit there, hypothetically,

00:45:51 ◼   ► streaming Netflix or what have you

00:45:53 ◼   ► for 25 hours on one charge of your battery.

00:45:57 ◼   ► - Which is double what you could do with last year's phone.

00:46:00 ◼   ► - As long as you weren't using the built-in speakers,

00:46:01 ◼   ► 'cause that's a huge drain.

00:46:03 ◼   ► - Yes, physically moving air really kills your battery.

00:46:06 ◼   ► Physically moving photons also kills your battery, apparently.

00:46:09 ◼   ► - Yeah, I feel like this is one of those areas

00:46:11 ◼   ► where as technology goes on,

00:46:14 ◼   ► it's harder to give useful battery life estimates

00:46:18 ◼   ► because it becomes increasingly about

00:46:22 ◼   ► picking up little efficiencies here and there,

00:46:24 ◼   ► and therefore the battery life of something

00:46:27 ◼   ► becomes much more dependent on what you're doing.

00:46:30 ◼   ► It'd be one thing if you were trying to measure

00:46:33 ◼   ► the battery life of a Game Gear.

00:46:35 ◼   ► Well, it's 10 minutes, whatever it is.

00:46:38 ◼   ► - If you're lucky.

00:46:39 ◼   ► - 10 minutes, there goes six AA batteries.

00:46:42 ◼   ► Was it six or eight?

00:46:44 ◼   ► - Atari Lynx was similar in battery life,

00:46:47 ◼   ► counted in seconds.

00:46:48 ◼   ► - I mean, why would anyone use Sega hardware?

00:46:50 ◼   ► It was all garbage.

00:46:51 ◼   ► - Anyway, so.

00:46:52 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:46:54 ◼   ► Moving on.

00:46:55 ◼   ► So back then, things were simpler.

00:46:59 ◼   ► Processors were always running at a fixed clock speed,

00:47:01 ◼   ► and it was like whatever you were doing,

00:47:04 ◼   ► the screen was always using the same amount of power

00:47:06 ◼   ► no matter what it was displaying, stuff like that.

00:47:08 ◼   ► And now, we've picked up all these efficiencies

00:47:11 ◼   ► as technology's gotten better and more complicated,

00:47:13 ◼   ► and so now, when you look at something like video playback,

00:47:15 ◼   ► well, that depends on a lot of things.

00:47:17 ◼   ► Is the codec being hardware accelerated?

00:47:20 ◼   ► That matters.

00:47:21 ◼   ► Part of the A15 changes over the A14

00:47:24 ◼   ► is they've added some more hardware acceleration for video.

00:47:28 ◼   ► Now, I don't know enough to know what that's for.

00:47:30 ◼   ► Some of it's probably for ProRes,

00:47:32 ◼   ► but what if some of it is for AV1

00:47:35 ◼   ► or whatever other codecs people are starting to use

00:47:38 ◼   ► that are not H.264, H.265,

00:47:41 ◼   ► then if Apple can hardware accelerate that,

00:47:43 ◼   ► then that'll improve the efficiency

00:47:45 ◼   ► and therefore battery life of whatever new services

00:47:48 ◼   ► or non-Apple services might be using that kind of stuff.

00:47:51 ◼   ► That maybe it'll help with YouTube,

00:47:53 ◼   ► maybe it'll help with Zoom, who knows?

00:47:55 ◼   ► So there's that kind of efficiency, hardware acceleration.

00:47:58 ◼   ► Then it's all right, well, is it now do we have

00:48:01 ◼   ► a lower frame rate than 60 hertz to display?

00:48:03 ◼   ► Then on the 13 Pros, now you can clock down the screen

00:48:07 ◼   ► and save some refresh, some screen refresh power there.

00:48:12 ◼   ► Also, these are OLED screens.

00:48:14 ◼   ► So if it's showing dark content versus light content,

00:48:17 ◼   ► you're gonna save some power there.

00:48:18 ◼   ► Like it's so dependent.

00:48:20 ◼   ► And also now, with the new promotion stuff,

00:48:23 ◼   ► the screen is refreshing in other apps

00:48:25 ◼   ► based on not only how much is changing on screen,

00:48:28 ◼   ► but also how often you are touching the screen.

00:48:30 ◼   ► Because when you're touching the screen,

00:48:31 ◼   ► it has to ramp up the refresh rate

00:48:33 ◼   ► to track your finger faster and have smooth motion

00:48:35 ◼   ► if you're scrolling through a list.

00:48:37 ◼   ► So again, it's gonna depend even more now

00:48:39 ◼   ► on how much are you touching the screen?

00:48:41 ◼   ► What are you watching?

00:48:41 ◼   ► Are you watching things that are constantly moving,

00:48:44 ◼   ► like video, or are you watching a scrolling text

00:48:47 ◼   ► or fixed image view, in which case it can have

00:48:50 ◼   ► more opportunities to save power?

00:48:51 ◼   ► So we're moving just further down this road

00:48:54 ◼   ► of the battery life is going to be increasingly

00:48:58 ◼   ► kind of like shrug emoji, just well,

00:49:01 ◼   ► just try it and see how it goes for you.

00:49:04 ◼   ► Because it's gonna depend so much on what you're doing.

00:49:07 ◼   ► And this is only increasing over time.

00:49:09 ◼   ► - Another thing people in chat room pointed out

00:49:11 ◼   ► is I'm not sure if the iPhone 13 Pro has this,

00:49:14 ◼   ► but I'm gonna assume it does.

00:49:16 ◼   ► The LTPO screens, low temperature,

00:49:18 ◼   ► - It does. - Polycrystalline

00:49:19 ◼   ► silicon screen.

00:49:20 ◼   ► My question is, okay, the 13 Pro has it.

00:49:23 ◼   ► Does the 13 have it too, or no?

00:49:25 ◼   ► - As far as we know, no.

00:49:27 ◼   ► That seems to be like the difference

00:49:29 ◼   ► between whether something can have promotion or not,

00:49:32 ◼   ► is whether it has the LPTO OLEDs.

00:49:34 ◼   ► - So anyway, if it's only in the Pro phones,

00:49:36 ◼   ► that is another sort of blanket across the board

00:49:38 ◼   ► power savings, because one of the advantages of LTPOs

00:49:42 ◼   ► takes less power to run the backplane

00:49:44 ◼   ► behind the screen or whatever.

00:49:45 ◼   ► So yeah, I feel like it makes sense to me

00:49:50 ◼   ► when the more expensive, fancier phone

00:49:54 ◼   ► has better things in it.

00:49:55 ◼   ► Like, I don't know, that sounds ridiculous, but like.

00:49:57 ◼   ► But yeah, if you pay more, you get the fancier screen,

00:49:59 ◼   ► and you get more battery life, and you get 120 hertz,

00:50:02 ◼   ► like, yeah, it is easier to explain what you're getting

00:50:07 ◼   ► with the 13 Pro versus the 13 than it was

00:50:09 ◼   ► with the 12 Pro versus the 12.

00:50:12 ◼   ► - I would also say, I will disagree with something

00:50:14 ◼   ► John said, you know, 15 hours ago,

00:50:16 ◼   ► at the beginning of this topic, which was,

00:50:18 ◼   ► you said that the gains on the batteries were substantial,

00:50:21 ◼   ► and I would say, honestly, the mini only going up 9%.

00:50:26 ◼   ► I don't think it's enough.

00:50:27 ◼   ► - But like you just said, it depends on what you're doing.

00:50:29 ◼   ► If you're watching movies on a plane, it's huge.

00:50:32 ◼   ► If yeah, if you're just browsing the web,

00:50:33 ◼   ► oh, it's a single digit percent.

00:50:36 ◼   ► But in terms of absolute time, Apple's estimates are like,

00:50:38 ◼   ► you get like one extra hour on the mini or something,

00:50:40 ◼   ► and it's like web browsing test.

00:50:43 ◼   ► One extra hour, that's significant.

00:50:45 ◼   ► - It is, but I think if the mini's battery life

00:50:48 ◼   ► was not enough for you before,

00:50:50 ◼   ► it's unlikely that this is going to make a difference.

00:50:52 ◼   ► - I'm mostly just setting aside the mini,

00:50:54 ◼   ► 'cause nobody buys the phone,

00:50:54 ◼   ► and you're not even buying it again this year.

00:50:56 ◼   ► But for the big phones, you get like an extra two hours

00:50:59 ◼   ► or something or an extra one point,

00:51:00 ◼   ► like even just one extra hour on a phone,

00:51:03 ◼   ► it really makes a big difference in terms of making it,

00:51:06 ◼   ► like if you're, the difference between running out

00:51:09 ◼   ► and having an extra hour, if you're anywhere close

00:51:12 ◼   ► to making it through the day, is a huge difference.

00:51:14 ◼   ► And I think my 12 Pro battery life is great.

00:51:17 ◼   ► Granted, I don't really go anywhere, but I think it's great.

00:51:19 ◼   ► But when my phone is approaching zero,

00:51:21 ◼   ► if I'm out doing something, if at that moment I say,

00:51:25 ◼   ► what would you give for one extra hour?

00:51:26 ◼   ► I would say yes, I would pay for a new phone for that.

00:51:28 ◼   ► So if you're getting half an hour or 15 minutes or whatever,

00:51:31 ◼   ► but if you're getting double for watching Netflix

00:51:34 ◼   ► plus an extra hour in your average day

00:51:36 ◼   ► or an extra one point five hours or whatever,

00:51:39 ◼   ► I think it's pretty significant.

00:51:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, and for the record, if the mini was offered

00:51:43 ◼   ► with the Pro camera system,

00:51:44 ◼   ► I probably still would have gotten it.

00:51:47 ◼   ► - That would be hilariously lopsided.

00:51:49 ◼   ► - It would just be, it would be go across the entire back,

00:51:52 ◼   ► like just the whole width of the back.

00:51:53 ◼   ► - It would be 75% of the width.

00:51:55 ◼   ► That's what's so awkward about their design.

00:51:57 ◼   ► It's like you're not in the corner anymore.

00:51:59 ◼   ► Nobody puts these cameras in a corner.

00:52:00 ◼   ► - I finally get the reference.

00:52:02 ◼   ► - Hey, it's a good movie, isn't it?

00:52:04 ◼   ► You carried your watermelon.

00:52:05 ◼   ► - It's a decent movie.

00:52:06 ◼   ► I don't love it as much as everyone else does.

00:52:07 ◼   ► - A decent movie?

00:52:08 ◼   ► It's decent.

00:52:09 ◼   ► - You're such a hard critic.

00:52:11 ◼   ► - I've only seen it once and I actually,

00:52:14 ◼   ► I think Marco's right, it's fine.

00:52:16 ◼   ► - Well, you're both wrong, it's an amazing movie.

00:52:19 ◼   ► - I was just arguing with Snell

00:52:20 ◼   ► about real genius earlier tonight, so we can move on.

00:52:23 ◼   ► Hey, John, do you wanna run through this

00:52:25 ◼   ► like specs gobbledygook that's in the show notes?

00:52:28 ◼   ► - Yep, sure.

00:52:29 ◼   ► This is still an open question.

00:52:30 ◼   ► I didn't get any kind of confirmation of it

00:52:32 ◼   ► because phones still aren't quite in people's hands

00:52:34 ◼   ► or whatever, but there were some things

00:52:35 ◼   ► that I saw early on where someone's speculating

00:52:37 ◼   ► the 13 Pro's clocked higher than the 13

00:52:40 ◼   ► in terms of megahertz on the system on the chip.

00:52:43 ◼   ► Don't know, well, I guess we'll revisit that.

00:52:45 ◼   ► If anyone knows for sure, let us know,

00:52:46 ◼   ► but of course, probably by next week,

00:52:47 ◼   ► people will turn the thing open and let us know for sure.

00:52:50 ◼   ► One thing we do know is same as last year,

00:52:52 ◼   ► the 13 has four gigs of RAM and the 13 Pro has six.

00:52:55 ◼   ► It's exactly the same as it was with the 12, 12 Pro.

00:52:58 ◼   ► So another thing you get on the Pro is more RAM,

00:53:00 ◼   ► which is nice.

00:53:01 ◼   ► Apparently they come with dual eSIMs now,

00:53:04 ◼   ► which is important for people who want to be able to

00:53:07 ◼   ► not deal with a physical SIM

00:53:09 ◼   ► and have two eSIM thingies active.

00:53:11 ◼   ► Given the messed up situation with carriers in the US,

00:53:14 ◼   ► I'm not even sure if I can use the eSIM,

00:53:16 ◼   ► but I do like the idea of going to eSIMs.

00:53:18 ◼   ► Having a SIM card slot at all on the phones

00:53:21 ◼   ► when we have this eSIM technology seems to me

00:53:24 ◼   ► to be barbaric, but that's carriers for you.

00:53:28 ◼   ► - Hard disagree, because one of the things that I love

00:53:31 ◼   ► about just moving a SIM from one phone to another

00:53:33 ◼   ► is that generally speaking, I can A, handle it myself,

00:53:38 ◼   ► B, not have to rely on the carrier at all,

00:53:39 ◼   ► and C, don't get charged the completely stupid

00:53:43 ◼   ► like $25 to $50 upgrade fee every single year,

00:53:46 ◼   ► every other year, what have you.

00:53:47 ◼   ► - But you're just complaining about carriers there.

00:53:49 ◼   ► Like technologically speaking,

00:53:50 ◼   ► there's no reason any of that has to be true.

00:53:52 ◼   ► It is true, I agree with you,

00:53:53 ◼   ► but it's because carriers are evil and stupid,

00:53:55 ◼   ► but I want to live in a future where I don't have to have

00:53:58 ◼   ► the little magic plastic thingy with the metal things on it

00:54:00 ◼   ► and a tiny little slot and a tiny little paperclip tool

00:54:03 ◼   ► that comes with all of our phones.

00:54:04 ◼   ► So I really do hope that we get over this hurdle

00:54:07 ◼   ► and eventually, kind of like back when all our phones

00:54:09 ◼   ► were locked and everything, it took a long time

00:54:11 ◼   ► for us to get over that BS.

00:54:13 ◼   ► That was entirely carrier manufactured BS.

00:54:15 ◼   ► That's the type of stuff we can overcome

00:54:17 ◼   ► with policy changes over time,

00:54:19 ◼   ► or even just something as simple for the old folks

00:54:22 ◼   ► of having our phone numbers be portable.

00:54:24 ◼   ► That didn't used to be a thing, young kids.

00:54:27 ◼   ► It just became a thing because people complained, right?

00:54:30 ◼   ► So carrier BS, telecom carrier BS,

00:54:33 ◼   ► can with many, many decades eventually be overcome.

00:54:37 ◼   ► And having the technology in place to say,

00:54:39 ◼   ► "You know what, we don't need your little plastic card

00:54:41 ◼   ► "anymore, just change your policy so they're not stupid

00:54:43 ◼   ► "and we'll just do everything in eSIMS

00:54:44 ◼   ► "and everything will be automatic."

00:54:45 ◼   ► So we're not living there yet,

00:54:47 ◼   ► but I'm glad to see that dual eSIMS are supported.

00:54:50 ◼   ► And for people who live in the more civilized world,

00:54:52 ◼   ► I think dual eSIMS will already be a convenience for them.

00:54:55 ◼   ► Let's see, so lots of the reviews that are coming out now

00:54:58 ◼   ► have pointed out that on the 13 Pro,

00:55:01 ◼   ► the switching from the 1X camera to the macro lens,

00:55:05 ◼   ► when you're going really, really close to something,

00:55:07 ◼   ► is kind of jarring.

00:55:08 ◼   ► Like you look in the viewfinder

00:55:09 ◼   ► and the phone will automatically say,

00:55:11 ◼   ► "I know you have the 1X camera selected,

00:55:14 ◼   ► "but I'm gonna stop using that camera

00:55:15 ◼   ► "and I'm gonna switch to,"

00:55:16 ◼   ► what is it, the ultra-wide that does macro?

00:55:18 ◼   ► - Yes. - "I'm gonna switch

00:55:19 ◼   ► "to the ultra-wide and put it in macro mode."

00:55:21 ◼   ► So it switches cameras on you without you knowing

00:55:25 ◼   ► and without the UI reflecting that,

00:55:26 ◼   ► and what you see through the viewfinder

00:55:28 ◼   ► goes through this jarring transition where it's like,

00:55:30 ◼   ► "Ooh, oh, now you're looking through a different camera."

00:55:32 ◼   ► And the background jumps and it looks weird.

00:55:34 ◼   ► We'll put a link to a YouTube video

00:55:36 ◼   ► so you can see it in action.

00:55:37 ◼   ► But almost everybody who's reviewed the camera has said,

00:55:39 ◼   ► "That's kind of weird."

00:55:41 ◼   ► And it doesn't make for a pleasant experience,

00:55:43 ◼   ► and it basically reframes your shot a little bit too

00:55:45 ◼   ► while you're zooming in, and you can't control it.

00:55:47 ◼   ► It changes to the macro lens

00:55:50 ◼   ► when it thinks there's a thing too close to it.

00:55:53 ◼   ► So that's kind of crappy,

00:55:54 ◼   ► but already based on all these reviews,

00:55:56 ◼   ► Apple has said officially that they are going

00:55:58 ◼   ► to release a software update that lets you enable

00:56:00 ◼   ► or disable this auto switching.

00:56:01 ◼   ► So if you don't like the auto switching

00:56:03 ◼   ► and you just wanna control which camera it uses yourself,

00:56:05 ◼   ► you can turn that off.

00:56:06 ◼   ► And I think I probably will turn it off,

00:56:07 ◼   ► because if I want a macro shot, I know I want a macro shot,

00:56:10 ◼   ► I will enable it or go to the macro camera or whatever.

00:56:14 ◼   ► I don't like it trying to switch for me.

00:56:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think it depends for me on what is the behavior.

00:56:19 ◼   ► So if, assuming that the ultra wide lens

00:56:24 ◼   ► is always capable of focusing down to two centimeters,

00:56:26 ◼   ► which is great, if it's always able to do that,

00:56:28 ◼   ► and if you get close enough, it does it,

00:56:31 ◼   ► then if you have to switch over to the ultra wide

00:56:33 ◼   ► to have that close focus capability,

00:56:35 ◼   ► that would be kind of nice.

00:56:37 ◼   ► Because I saw the video clips of the people

00:56:39 ◼   ► who show what happens when it jumps over,

00:56:41 ◼   ► and it is, I would say it's inelegant.

00:56:44 ◼   ► And so if they can in the future do it

00:56:46 ◼   ► without that kind of jump, great.

00:56:49 ◼   ► If this is what we have to live with to get macro,

00:56:52 ◼   ► again, it's inelegant, but I'll live with it,

00:56:55 ◼   ► because macro focusing distances are very, very close.

00:56:58 ◼   ► It isn't just if you wanna take a picture

00:57:00 ◼   ► of a butterfly or whatever, it's also very useful

00:57:04 ◼   ► in everyday situations.

00:57:05 ◼   ► Scanning QR codes or magnifying text,

00:57:09 ◼   ► taking the picture of the label on the back

00:57:11 ◼   ► of your wifi router so you can then go type

00:57:13 ◼   ► in the password somewhere.

00:57:15 ◼   ► There's all sorts of useful little times like that

00:57:18 ◼   ► where having closer focusing distance will be very helpful.

00:57:22 ◼   ► And so if I have to tolerate the little jump,

00:57:24 ◼   ► yeah, it's inelegant, but I'll take it

00:57:26 ◼   ► because the utility is worth it.

00:57:28 ◼   ► But if there's ways to avoid that, even better.

00:57:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think that having an auto switch by default

00:57:32 ◼   ► is probably the correct default,

00:57:33 ◼   ► 'cause people won't know about it otherwise.

00:57:36 ◼   ► What I'm mostly worried about is,

00:57:37 ◼   ► like, oh, my finger accidentally goes in front of the phone

00:57:40 ◼   ► and it thinks something is doing macro range

00:57:42 ◼   ► and switches, like sort of false starts

00:57:43 ◼   ► or sort of gear hunting in automatic transition parlance

00:57:48 ◼   ► where you're like, you're right at the edge of the distance

00:57:50 ◼   ► and it's like a macro, a 1X, macro, a 1X.

00:57:53 ◼   ► Like, it needs to be worked out a little bit.

00:57:56 ◼   ► And we'll have to see once we get the phones

00:57:58 ◼   ► if the auto switching is easy to trip up,

00:58:02 ◼   ► like by accidentally having something pass

00:58:04 ◼   ► in front of the lens and switch you to the macro,

00:58:06 ◼   ► which will just be a mess.

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00:59:24 ◼   ► - All right, tell me about A15 Performance.

00:59:26 ◼   ► - This is a big question.

00:59:28 ◼   ► The first one we have in the follow-up here

00:59:31 ◼   ► is in a very early article from Techmeme.

00:59:33 ◼   ► It's linking to a semi-analysis substack that says,

00:59:38 ◼   ► here's a quote from the thing,

00:59:39 ◼   ► "Apple, in a first, reported no CPU gains for the A15,

00:59:43 ◼   ► "likely because of the engineers' exodus

00:59:45 ◼   ► "to companies like Nuvia and Rivioos."

00:59:46 ◼   ► So this is a whole big story about how Apple

00:59:49 ◼   ► has this huge brain drain in their chip design staff.

00:59:53 ◼   ► Like, 100 people have left Apple's chip design place

00:59:55 ◼   ► to go work at other places or run their own startups,

00:59:57 ◼   ► which is a thing that has happened.

00:59:58 ◼   ► They've lost a lot of people,

00:59:59 ◼   ► because once you're extremely experienced

01:00:02 ◼   ► and know what you're doing,

01:00:04 ◼   ► the temptation to start your own company

01:00:05 ◼   ► and do your own thing is very real,

01:00:08 ◼   ► and that's Apple's challenge to overcome.

01:00:11 ◼   ► But apparently Apple has lost a lot of good people to that.

01:00:13 ◼   ► But the other part of the thing of saying,

01:00:16 ◼   ► "Apple, in a first, has reported no CPU gains."

01:00:19 ◼   ► Well, Apple didn't really, as we told you last week,

01:00:21 ◼   ► didn't really say much specifically about the A15.

01:00:24 ◼   ► They just compared it to chips

01:00:25 ◼   ► that are way slower than it,

01:00:26 ◼   ► and then we tried to do back-of-the-envelope math

01:00:27 ◼   ► to figure out how much faster the A15 is than the A14.

01:00:31 ◼   ► But this was the first story of like, no CPU gains, right?

01:00:34 ◼   ► Now that people have them, reviewers have them,

01:00:36 ◼   ► and they've been testing them a little bit,

01:00:37 ◼   ► we have some numbers.

01:00:39 ◼   ► So here's Ben Bajarin.

01:00:40 ◼   ► He has a big article about the A15 performance.

01:00:43 ◼   ► You can read about it.

01:00:44 ◼   ► He has some graphs.

01:00:45 ◼   ► One of them shows, "For the past five years,

01:00:47 ◼   ► "Apple has had an average of 19% GPU gains year over year,

01:00:51 ◼   ► "but for the A15, Apple has increased GPU performance

01:00:55 ◼   ► "by 52%."

01:00:56 ◼   ► So normally, it's like a 20% increase,

01:00:58 ◼   ► and this year it's a 50%.

01:00:59 ◼   ► And it's no surprise why, extra GPU core.

01:01:02 ◼   ► Like, GPUs are embarrassingly parallel.

01:01:04 ◼   ► If you want to make them go faster, you add more GPU.

01:01:07 ◼   ► Like, it's very easy to add more GPU.

01:01:09 ◼   ► And so they, it's not many more,

01:01:11 ◼   ► but a four-core GPU, and they went to a five-core.

01:01:13 ◼   ► But hey, big bump.

01:01:15 ◼   ► But on top of that, the A15 GPU also has new features.

01:01:20 ◼   ► It has an increased core count, which I just said.

01:01:21 ◼   ► It has increased F32 math rate per core,

01:01:25 ◼   ► lossy renderable textures

01:01:26 ◼   ► that save memory and storage bandwidth,

01:01:27 ◼   ► support for sparse depth and stencil textures,

01:01:30 ◼   ► and a new SIMD shuffle and fill instructions.

01:01:32 ◼   ► This is from Gokhan Avkaro-Gulari,

01:01:35 ◼   ► who gave me all this information about the GPU.

01:01:38 ◼   ► And Apple itself has a Tech Talk video.

01:01:42 ◼   ► Like, they put out these little videos.

01:01:43 ◼   ► They're kind of like miniature WWC videos.

01:01:44 ◼   ► They have a Tech Talk called

01:01:45 ◼   ► Metal Advances in A15 Bionic

01:01:48 ◼   ► that goes over a lot of these features.

01:01:49 ◼   ► So not only does the A15 have another GPU core,

01:01:53 ◼   ► going from four to five if you get the Pro phones,

01:01:56 ◼   ► although the non-Pro ones have five too.

01:01:57 ◼   ► One of them is just broken.

01:02:01 ◼   ► But GPU performance is basically

01:02:04 ◼   ► a double the normal year over year increase

01:02:06 ◼   ► for GPUs on the iPhone.

01:02:08 ◼   ► So that's all good news.

01:02:09 ◼   ► But what about the CPU?

01:02:10 ◼   ► So what Jason Snell says is,

01:02:12 ◼   ► "While the last four processor upgrades

01:02:14 ◼   ► have averaged a 20% speed boost in single core performance,

01:02:18 ◼   ► on my scorecard, the A15 is only about 11% faster

01:02:21 ◼   ► than the A14.

01:02:22 ◼   ► And multi-core performance,

01:02:23 ◼   ► the speed gains are even more meager,

01:02:24 ◼   ► about 4% compared to average gains

01:02:26 ◼   ► of around 22% every year for the past three years."

01:02:29 ◼   ► So the A15, much faster and better and bigger GPU,

01:02:34 ◼   ► you know, a very big GPU increase.

01:02:36 ◼   ► Single core, 11%, 10%, but still not zero.

01:02:41 ◼   ► And then multi-core only about 4%

01:02:44 ◼   ► because it has the same number of CPU cores.

01:02:47 ◼   ► So the A15 cores, the A15 is better than the A14.

01:02:52 ◼   ► A lot in GPU, not so much in CPU, but still it is better.

01:02:56 ◼   ► So the original tech meme story of no CPU gains,

01:02:59 ◼   ► not true at all, right?

01:03:01 ◼   ► If you want to see that in a graphical form,

01:03:04 ◼   ► MacRumors has a story about it.

01:03:07 ◼   ► And there is a graph from, who is this from?

01:03:09 ◼   ► This is Ben Bajarian's graph, I think,

01:03:10 ◼   ► showing single core percentage increase over time,

01:03:14 ◼   ► starting with the iPhone 5S.

01:03:16 ◼   ► And plus a little line graph showing you like

01:03:20 ◼   ► what the percentage increase is.

01:03:22 ◼   ► And yeah, this is a little bit of a down year,

01:03:24 ◼   ► but in the overall graph,

01:03:25 ◼   ► you can see their system on chips are still getting better.

01:03:28 ◼   ► And the final bit here from our friend DHH at Basecamp,

01:03:33 ◼   ► he did a tweet this afternoon,

01:03:36 ◼   ► "The fastest single core performance for JavaScript

01:03:39 ◼   ► "in any computer at any price is," drum roll please,

01:03:43 ◼   ► "the $499 iPad Mini with an A15."

01:03:47 ◼   ► - This is bananas.

01:03:47 ◼   ► - Now why is that?

01:03:48 ◼   ► We just got done saying, oh,

01:03:49 ◼   ► the A15 is only 10% faster than the A14.

01:03:52 ◼   ► Yeah, but the A14 was really fast.

01:03:55 ◼   ► The iPad, this is in one particular JavaScript benchmark,

01:03:57 ◼   ► you know, setting aside how representative this is.

01:03:59 ◼   ► Obviously, DHH cares about it because Basecamp has a web app

01:04:02 ◼   ► and they have like web apps like the Hey Email app

01:04:05 ◼   ► and everything.

01:04:06 ◼   ► So they care about JavaScript performance

01:04:06 ◼   ► and apparently they care about this one benchmark.

01:04:08 ◼   ► And in this one benchmark,

01:04:11 ◼   ► if you look at the number three fastest computer

01:04:13 ◼   ► is the MacBook M1 using Chrome,

01:04:16 ◼   ► the number two iPhone 13 Pro,

01:04:19 ◼   ► and the number one device, iPad Mini A15.

01:04:22 ◼   ► And this is not a list of Apple devices.

01:04:24 ◼   ► This is a list of like, at any price,

01:04:26 ◼   ► any computer thing that you can buy,

01:04:28 ◼   ► single core JavaScript performance.

01:04:30 ◼   ► If you go down, I forget where it is,

01:04:32 ◼   ► it's like how many items is this?

01:04:33 ◼   ► One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10,

01:04:35 ◼   ► 11, 12, 13, 14, around.

01:04:37 ◼   ► Around item 16 or 17 is the first Android phone

01:04:40 ◼   ► with a score of 84.

01:04:41 ◼   ► The iPad Mini has a score of 245.

01:04:43 ◼   ► So yeah, the iPad Mini is the fastest single core

01:04:48 ◼   ► JavaScript performance device you can buy

01:04:49 ◼   ► at any price from anybody.

01:04:51 ◼   ► It's faster than the M1 MacBooks,

01:04:53 ◼   ► certainly faster than all the Intel ones.

01:04:54 ◼   ► If you look down, there are some Intel ones,

01:04:56 ◼   ► I guess, in the top 10.

01:04:57 ◼   ► The iMac 3.8, i7 has a score of 150.

01:05:01 ◼   ► Again, iPad Mini 245.

01:05:02 ◼   ► So is the A15 a good chip?

01:05:05 ◼   ► Yeah, it's pretty good.

01:05:06 ◼   ► Are the A15 cores good?

01:05:07 ◼   ► They seem pretty good.

01:05:08 ◼   ► If there's an M2 and it uses A15 cores,

01:05:10 ◼   ► that will be a good thing for everybody.

01:05:12 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's been interesting seeing more so

01:05:15 ◼   ► right after the event, all the kerfuffle about,

01:05:17 ◼   ► "Oh, Apple didn't make any improvements.

01:05:19 ◼   ► "What are they doing here?"

01:05:21 ◼   ► I hear the idea behind that,

01:05:26 ◼   ► but I can't help but wonder,

01:05:28 ◼   ► if you look at all the departures

01:05:32 ◼   ► that have supposedly happened from their chip team,

01:05:34 ◼   ► and then on top of that, we're still waiting

01:05:37 ◼   ► for what I would call the real MacBook Pros

01:05:40 ◼   ► and for potentially an iMac Pro

01:05:44 ◼   ► and a bunch of other Mac hardware.

01:05:47 ◼   ► And if it really is the same team now,

01:05:49 ◼   ► which I have to assume it is,

01:05:51 ◼   ► what if they just kind of cruised on the A15

01:05:53 ◼   ► and they really dedicated all of their time

01:05:56 ◼   ► on whatever's coming up for the MacBook Pro

01:05:59 ◼   ► that I'm going to Instabuy?

01:06:01 ◼   ► And obviously I won't know.

01:06:02 ◼   ► I can't know until we see what happens.

01:06:04 ◼   ► And I will never know if they're related events or not.

01:06:06 ◼   ► But if I were to wager a guess,

01:06:08 ◼   ► I think what's happening is that they're just trying

01:06:10 ◼   ► to put out the biggest fire, which is getting chips

01:06:13 ◼   ► for their forthcoming MacBook Pros.

01:06:16 ◼   ► - It's hard to know how they're prioritizing things internally

01:06:18 ◼   ► but I think the explanation for the A15's performance delta

01:06:21 ◼   ► of the A14 is as simple as saying that they knew

01:06:23 ◼   ► the A15 would be manufactured on the same process

01:06:26 ◼   ► as the A14.

01:06:26 ◼   ► And when you're on the same process,

01:06:27 ◼   ► when you don't have a shrink,

01:06:28 ◼   ► when your transistors don't get any smaller,

01:06:31 ◼   ► you are very limited, especially in a phone,

01:06:33 ◼   ► to what you can do.

01:06:35 ◼   ► Because the bottom line is you have a power envelope

01:06:39 ◼   ► and if you're at the same process size,

01:06:40 ◼   ► it's kind of the same power envelope.

01:06:42 ◼   ► So it's like, okay, do exactly what you did with the A14

01:06:44 ◼   ► but do it faster but use the same amount of power or less.

01:06:49 ◼   ► And you're like, well, if I have a shrink, I can do that.

01:06:51 ◼   ► That's the whole point of shrinks.

01:06:52 ◼   ► But if I don't have a shrink,

01:06:53 ◼   ► so if I could have done that,

01:06:54 ◼   ► I wouldn't think I would have done it on the A14.

01:06:56 ◼   ► So it's very difficult to eke out extra performance.

01:07:00 ◼   ► Not impossible 'cause you can see here they're doing it

01:07:01 ◼   ► but it's very difficult to eke out those huge,

01:07:03 ◼   ► oh, 30% faster this year, 20% faster

01:07:06 ◼   ► in single core performance without also having a shrink.

01:07:08 ◼   ► So why is the A15 only 10% faster

01:07:12 ◼   ► in single core than the A14?

01:07:14 ◼   ► 'Cause it's also on five nanometer.

01:07:16 ◼   ► And what else are you gonna do

01:07:18 ◼   ► while staying within that power?

01:07:19 ◼   ► But as I was trying to emphasize with the iPad Mini thing,

01:07:22 ◼   ► like why is the iPad Mini on top?

01:07:24 ◼   ► Maybe it's clock tire, maybe thermal throttles less.

01:07:26 ◼   ► Like the iPad Mini is obviously a friendly

01:07:29 ◼   ► or thermal environment than the phone

01:07:31 ◼   ► just 'cause it's so much bigger

01:07:32 ◼   ► and there's so much room for heat to dissipate

01:07:34 ◼   ► and everything like that.

01:07:36 ◼   ► And it's not that much faster than the iPad.

01:07:38 ◼   ► So the scores are 245 for the iPad Mini

01:07:41 ◼   ► and 238 for the iPhone 13 Pro.

01:07:43 ◼   ► But the point is 10% faster than an A14 is phenomenal.

01:07:49 ◼   ► Is the, right?

01:07:50 ◼   ► It's not like, oh, it's only 10% faster.

01:07:52 ◼   ► Yeah, it's 10% faster.

01:07:53 ◼   ► Intel chips, if they got 10% faster year over year,

01:07:55 ◼   ► we used to celebrate because it was so rare.

01:07:57 ◼   ► So I'm not disappointed in the A15 performance.

01:08:01 ◼   ► In anything I'm excited about the possibility

01:08:03 ◼   ► of having A15 cores in an M2

01:08:06 ◼   ► in like next year's MacBook Air redesign

01:08:08 ◼   ► that we talked about a few shows back.

01:08:10 ◼   ► We shall see.

01:08:11 ◼   ► And then finally photographic styles, Jon.

01:08:13 ◼   ► - We didn't mention it all last week.

01:08:14 ◼   ► It's the thing where you can say like,

01:08:16 ◼   ► I like my photos to be contrasty

01:08:17 ◼   ► or I want them to be cool or warm or, you know,

01:08:20 ◼   ► it's kind of like applying a bunch of different settings

01:08:24 ◼   ► to all the photos you take,

01:08:26 ◼   ► which is a nice touch because iPhones take iPhone pictures.

01:08:29 ◼   ► Like it's very pervasive in the Apple world.

01:08:32 ◼   ► If you take a picture with your phone,

01:08:33 ◼   ► I see this all the time because I use Apple,

01:08:35 ◼   ► you know, I have an iPhone and I also use Apple photos.

01:08:37 ◼   ► If you take a picture with your iPhone

01:08:39 ◼   ► and then you load that picture up in Apple photos

01:08:42 ◼   ► and you click on the little like magic wand thing

01:08:45 ◼   ► that says just make my picture look nice, Apple.

01:08:47 ◼   ► And it's an iPhone picture.

01:08:49 ◼   ► It says it does what Fonzie does

01:08:50 ◼   ► in front of the mirror in Happy Days.

01:08:52 ◼   ► Neither one of you knows this reference.

01:08:53 ◼   ► There you go. - Hey.

01:08:55 ◼   ► - What Fonzie does in the intro to Happy Days

01:08:57 ◼   ► is he goes up to the mirror in the bathroom

01:09:00 ◼   ► and he's got his black plastic comb out of his back pocket.

01:09:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, and he comes here.

01:09:04 ◼   ► - He goes and puts his two hands up to,

01:09:05 ◼   ► he goes and puts his two hands up to his hair,

01:09:07 ◼   ► his greasy hair to like,

01:09:08 ◼   ► I'm gonna comb it with this black, my black plastic comb.

01:09:10 ◼   ► And he goes about to comb it and he looks in the mirror

01:09:12 ◼   ► and he says, ah, you know what, I already look great.

01:09:15 ◼   ► Hey, and he doesn't comb it.

01:09:16 ◼   ► That's exactly what Apple photos does.

01:09:18 ◼   ► When it sees you, you took a photo on iPhone,

01:09:20 ◼   ► it's like adjust your picture, hey, it's already great.

01:09:23 ◼   ► It doesn't do anything, it doesn't change anything.

01:09:25 ◼   ► I mean, maybe it, like, because it already,

01:09:27 ◼   ► whatever adjustment that little magic thing was gonna do,

01:09:30 ◼   ► your iPhone already did.

01:09:31 ◼   ► Your iPhone is very opinionated

01:09:33 ◼   ► on how it interprets the incredible mess of noise

01:09:35 ◼   ► that comes off the sensors from these cameras.

01:09:37 ◼   ► And that opinion has been like the way iPhone pictures look.

01:09:40 ◼   ► And photographic styles finally lets people

01:09:42 ◼   ► have some say in that and say,

01:09:44 ◼   ► I don't like the way they look.

01:09:46 ◼   ► I think they're too cool and I wish they were warmer.

01:09:48 ◼   ► I think they're too warm and I wish they were cooler.

01:09:50 ◼   ► I think they're too low contrast and I wish they were higher.

01:09:52 ◼   ► I'm not sure how flexible this feature is,

01:09:55 ◼   ► but literally doing anything to sort of be able to change

01:09:59 ◼   ► like across the board, how your pictures look,

01:10:02 ◼   ► I think is a good idea.

01:10:03 ◼   ► And I saw that picture, the thing I thought of Tiff,

01:10:05 ◼   ► because Tiff has her own personal photographic style.

01:10:08 ◼   ► If you've seen a lot of her photography,

01:10:10 ◼   ► you can pick it out.

01:10:11 ◼   ► Tiff does that manually because it's the Tiff style, right?

01:10:15 ◼   ► I don't think photographic styles can match the Tiff style.

01:10:17 ◼   ► I don't think there's any chance in hell

01:10:19 ◼   ► it could do what she wants to do to the pictures.

01:10:20 ◼   ► But in that vein of having a personal style

01:10:23 ◼   ► of how you want your pictures to look,

01:10:26 ◼   ► it's great that the phone is starting to go

01:10:28 ◼   ► in that direction for people who don't have

01:10:29 ◼   ► Tiff's photo retouching skills,

01:10:31 ◼   ► or maybe don't even know what their taste is,

01:10:33 ◼   ► but having three or four settings

01:10:35 ◼   ► they can flip through and say, oh, I like this.

01:10:36 ◼   ► And they just turn that on, and from that point on,

01:10:38 ◼   ► all their pictures are slightly warmer

01:10:40 ◼   ► and they're just happier with their camera.

01:10:42 ◼   ► So I think this is a good idea.

01:10:43 ◼   ► - Yeah, me too.

01:10:44 ◼   ► I am all for this feature.

01:10:46 ◼   ► I think this is great because I remember,

01:10:49 ◼   ► it was only a month or two ago when we had Friends visit

01:10:54 ◼   ► and I talked on the show about how one of them

01:10:56 ◼   ► is a really good photographer and was using her own camera,

01:10:58 ◼   ► like a standalone camera, and that I noticed

01:11:01 ◼   ► that the way it just rendered colors and contrast

01:11:04 ◼   ► was just different than the iPhone.

01:11:06 ◼   ► And it was, in addition to being a really nice camera,

01:11:08 ◼   ► it was also just refreshing to see a different balance

01:11:11 ◼   ► of choices there being made by that camera.

01:11:14 ◼   ► It was a refreshing change of pace from my photo library,

01:11:17 ◼   ► which is almost 100% iPhone pictures.

01:11:20 ◼   ► They stood out and it was cool and nice.

01:11:23 ◼   ► And so to be able to tweak this for yourself

01:11:26 ◼   ► and for your own photos just a little bit,

01:11:29 ◼   ► not, I wouldn't go too severe

01:11:32 ◼   ► with any of the adjustments here,

01:11:33 ◼   ► but to be able to just tweak things slightly

01:11:34 ◼   ► for your own preferences and to be able to change them

01:11:36 ◼   ► over time or change them for different settings,

01:11:40 ◼   ► I like that.

01:11:41 ◼   ► I really like that.

01:11:42 ◼   ► So this, I feel like, can reduce the amount of sameness

01:11:47 ◼   ► among whatever one sees and does and produces.

01:11:51 ◼   ► And that's always a welcome change, in my opinion.

01:11:54 ◼   ► One of the downsides of Apple making such great products

01:12:01 ◼   ► and taking over so much of certain industries

01:12:04 ◼   ► or certain demographics or at least everyone we know,

01:12:08 ◼   ► at least one of the downsides of that is that

01:12:11 ◼   ► everyone has the same stuff.

01:12:12 ◼   ► Everyone has the same silverish computer

01:12:17 ◼   ► with the Apple logo and the black keyboard.

01:12:19 ◼   ► And everyone has the same three or four models of iPhone,

01:12:23 ◼   ► that's pretty much what everybody has.

01:12:25 ◼   ► They all look similar, they're all similar colors,

01:12:28 ◼   ► they all do similar things.

01:12:30 ◼   ► And they're all great.

01:12:31 ◼   ► Everyone's wearing the same watch.

01:12:33 ◼   ► You know, it's like, they're all great,

01:12:35 ◼   ► but a little individuality would be nice

01:12:37 ◼   ► when things are that successful and that ubiquitous.

01:12:41 ◼   ► It's nice to be able to have individuality in some way.

01:12:43 ◼   ► This is why I'm always pushing for them

01:12:44 ◼   ► to have more colors in their products,

01:12:46 ◼   ► more custom watch faces, stuff like that.

01:12:49 ◼   ► Just individuality is always a good thing to have.

01:12:51 ◼   ► And as their stuff has taken over and gotten so popular,

01:12:55 ◼   ► individuality has often suffered just by nature.

01:12:58 ◼   ► So something like this where, okay,

01:13:00 ◼   ► now everyone isn't shooting the exact same iPhone pictures.

01:13:05 ◼   ► Everyone's pictures can look a little bit different

01:13:07 ◼   ► and still be good, not look wrong

01:13:09 ◼   ► or not look over-processed.

01:13:11 ◼   ► They can still be good just making different choices,

01:13:13 ◼   ► having different priorities, having different looks.

01:13:16 ◼   ► That I very much welcome.

01:13:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, I hard agree on that.

01:13:19 ◼   ► And I think that's why widgets were and remain so popular

01:13:22 ◼   ► is because it is, granted, it's not the same kind

01:13:24 ◼   ► of individuality you're talking about

01:13:26 ◼   ► in that it's not externally visible in the same way,

01:13:29 ◼   ► but it's customizing your software life to be more for you.

01:13:34 ◼   ► So yeah, I completely agree.

01:13:36 ◼   ► Last episode, we were speculating that the physical wallet

01:13:41 ◼   ► that you can attach magnetically to your iPhone,

01:13:44 ◼   ► that it has some sort of find my technology.

01:13:48 ◼   ► And we figured, oh, what happens is

01:13:49 ◼   ► when you disconnected from your phone,

01:13:50 ◼   ► your phone reports into the mothership that,

01:13:52 ◼   ► oh, I was at such and such a location

01:13:54 ◼   ► when it gets disconnected.

01:13:55 ◼   ► And Snell writes that the new iPhone 13 wallet

01:13:58 ◼   ► has an NFC chip inside to enable its find where,

01:14:00 ◼   ► detach from my phone feature.

01:14:02 ◼   ► Turns out you can use this feature with the iPhone 12 models.

01:14:04 ◼   ► The magic is in the NFC chip, not the phone.

01:14:07 ◼   ► And that was news to me, and that's pretty cool.

01:14:10 ◼   ► - Yep, he's got a whole article about it

01:14:12 ◼   ► giving more detail than just this tweet,

01:14:13 ◼   ► but yeah, it's just an NFC thing.

01:14:14 ◼   ► I will reiterate my anger that the solution

01:14:18 ◼   ► to the problem of a wallet that keeps falling off your phone

01:14:21 ◼   ► is to make it easier to find after it gets lost

01:14:23 ◼   ► rather than saying maybe we shouldn't have a wallet

01:14:25 ◼   ► that magnetically connects to the back of our phone.

01:14:27 ◼   ► Although on that front, some of the people who have

01:14:30 ◼   ► the new phones and the new wallet,

01:14:32 ◼   ► I'm not sure how they have them already,

01:14:33 ◼   ► maybe they're reviewers, but anyway,

01:14:34 ◼   ► there were some reports that everything is stronger there,

01:14:37 ◼   ► stronger magnets in the phone and in the wallet,

01:14:40 ◼   ► and it is harder to detach than it was.

01:14:42 ◼   ► Is it harder than it is to detach than a wallet case though?

01:14:45 ◼   ► I still don't think that's a great product.

01:14:48 ◼   ► - For what it's worth, our cases arrived yesterday,

01:14:52 ◼   ► I believe, I haven't opened either of them.

01:14:54 ◼   ► I actually think I'm going to return

01:14:55 ◼   ► the Apple leather case that I bought.

01:14:57 ◼   ► Oh, we should probably say what we purchased.

01:14:59 ◼   ► I guess we kind of obliquely did,

01:15:00 ◼   ► we never got to Marco's whole situation,

01:15:03 ◼   ► so maybe we can slot that in in a moment.

01:15:05 ◼   ► But I bought a 256 gig, what is it, Sierra Blue,

01:15:09 ◼   ► iPhone 13 Pro, Aaron got a 256 gig,

01:15:13 ◼   ► whatever the silver is, is that not champagne?

01:15:15 ◼   ► What's the silver this year?

01:15:17 ◼   ► - Starlight or whatever, was it?

01:15:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, there you go, thank you.

01:15:20 ◼   ► Got one of those.

01:15:21 ◼   ► She's got the, I forget the official term,

01:15:23 ◼   ► but basically a light pink silicone case,