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ATP

506: Our Only SEO Is You

 

00:00:00 ◼   ► I've had my AirPods Pro 2 now for, I mean,

00:00:03 ◼   ► how many weeks have they been shipping to people?

00:00:06 ◼   ► Like three or four weeks?

00:00:07 ◼   ► - Yeah, something like that.

00:00:08 ◼   ► - I learned yesterday how to do the volume gesture.

00:00:12 ◼   ► Have you done it?

00:00:13 ◼   ► - Don't you just swipe up and down?

00:00:14 ◼   ► - What do you mean learn?

00:00:15 ◼   ► The whole time, did you forget that the feature existed?

00:00:18 ◼   ► - No, so okay, here's what happened.

00:00:21 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:00:23 ◼   ► So I get them and I'm trying them out

00:00:26 ◼   ► and I couldn't get the volume gesture to work.

00:00:31 ◼   ► And one time I got it to work once,

00:00:34 ◼   ► and I just couldn't repeat it.

00:00:35 ◼   ► I'm like, are they broken?

00:00:37 ◼   ► Am I broken?

00:00:38 ◼   ► What's going on here?

00:00:40 ◼   ► But I had a lot of stuff going on,

00:00:43 ◼   ► and so I'm like, you know what,

00:00:44 ◼   ► at some point I'll be in an Apple store,

00:00:46 ◼   ► and I'll bring them in, I'll deal with it.

00:00:49 ◼   ► - I don't know why you're having trouble with this.

00:00:51 ◼   ► I'm sure there's clear markings on the outside

00:00:53 ◼   ► of the AirPods showing you exactly

00:00:54 ◼   ► to move your finger, right?

00:00:56 ◼   ► Or are they just white?

00:00:57 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:00:58 ◼   ► - It's probably just like dark white markings

00:01:01 ◼   ► on the white case.

00:01:01 ◼   ► - Yeah, no, there's actually two tiny arrows

00:01:04 ◼   ► and some words telling you start swiping here

00:01:06 ◼   ► and end swiping there, but they're a very, very,

00:01:10 ◼   ► very light gray and they're, you know, .025 point text.

00:01:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, so anyway, so I've been using them, you know,

00:01:19 ◼   ► just fine and I like them overall.

00:01:21 ◼   ► I think there's a little, there's a couple of bugs

00:01:22 ◼   ► with adaptive transparency, but overall I like them a lot.

00:01:25 ◼   ► The noise cancellation is amazingly better.

00:01:28 ◼   ► Like, and it was already pretty good before,

00:01:30 ◼   ► but it's really good now.

00:01:32 ◼   ► So anyway, I've been enjoying those,

00:01:34 ◼   ► but I just couldn't get the stupid volume gesture to work,

00:01:36 ◼   ► so I just thought like, maybe they're defective,

00:01:38 ◼   ► or maybe I'm, you know, I don't know what.

00:01:40 ◼   ► And then the other day, for some reason,

00:01:43 ◼   ► I decided to do it a little bit differently.

00:01:45 ◼   ► I don't even know why I tried this,

00:01:46 ◼   ► and then it started working, I'm like, oh my God.

00:01:49 ◼   ► All this time, like, now, so I've been doing it now

00:01:51 ◼   ► for like two days and it's perfect and flawless

00:01:54 ◼   ► and I was just doing it wrong.

00:01:55 ◼   ► So what I was doing was sliding both my thumb

00:02:00 ◼   ► and first finger up and down the stick,

00:02:05 ◼   ► almost to the point where you'd almost pull them out

00:02:07 ◼   ► and which at first I'm like,

00:02:09 ◼   ► this isn't a very useful gesture.

00:02:11 ◼   ► - Why were you doing that?

00:02:12 ◼   ► - I am not mature enough for this conversation.

00:02:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, I know, it's hard.

00:02:15 ◼   ► - Stay strong, stay strong.

00:02:17 ◼   ► No promises.

00:02:18 ◼   ► - But that just seemed logical.

00:02:20 ◼   ► Like, oh, you swipe, I don't know.

00:02:22 ◼   ► - But didn't you see the videos showing,

00:02:24 ◼   ► showing like the Apple marketing material

00:02:26 ◼   ► show people using this feature,

00:02:28 ◼   ► and they never grabbed the little stick

00:02:30 ◼   ► with their thumb and forefinger.

00:02:32 ◼   ► - Well, that was a long time ago,

00:02:34 ◼   ► and I haven't rewatched it, you know, so, anyway.

00:02:37 ◼   ► So that's what I was doing,

00:02:38 ◼   ► and I kept like almost pulling them out,

00:02:40 ◼   ► and I couldn't get it to work.

00:02:41 ◼   ► I'm like, this is just a stupid feature,

00:02:42 ◼   ► and it turns out what you're supposed to do is,

00:02:45 ◼   ► like leave your thumb,

00:02:46 ◼   ► like if you're using your right hand,

00:02:47 ◼   ► leave your thumb behind the stick to hold it in place

00:02:51 ◼   ► and swipe up and down like with your index finger

00:02:53 ◼   ► on the other side.

00:02:54 ◼   ► So like, so one finger's holding it

00:02:56 ◼   ► and only the other finger moves.

00:02:59 ◼   ► Oh my God, so much better.

00:03:01 ◼   ► - So which surface, to be clear,

00:03:02 ◼   ► which surface are you talking about?

00:03:03 ◼   ► Is it the surface that faces the way your eyeballs face?

00:03:05 ◼   ► Is it the surface that faces the way your ear holes face?

00:03:07 ◼   ► Which surface are you running your finger up and down?

00:03:09 ◼   ► - I am, the finger that is stationary is behind my ear

00:03:13 ◼   ► and this finger that is moving is the direction

00:03:15 ◼   ► that my eyeballs face.

00:03:16 ◼   ► It's like hitting that surface.

00:03:18 ◼   ► - Okay, so if I was looking straight at you

00:03:20 ◼   ► and if I was a product designer

00:03:21 ◼   ► that thought it might be important for the customer

00:03:23 ◼   ► to know where to move their finger,

00:03:24 ◼   ► they might put a black line such that when I was staring

00:03:27 ◼   ► at you head on, I would see two black lines coming down

00:03:29 ◼   ► the sides of your AirPods and those black lines

00:03:31 ◼   ► would be what you'd run your finger down.

00:03:33 ◼   ► - I think so.

00:03:34 ◼   ► - All right, so now you know.

00:03:35 ◼   ► - So anyway, that's how, for anyone else out there,

00:03:38 ◼   ► you know what, write in.

00:03:39 ◼   ► If you didn't know either, if you've been doing it wrong too,

00:03:41 ◼   ► I just wanna know if I'm the only one.

00:03:43 ◼   ► If you've been doing it right, I don't care.

00:03:44 ◼   ► I don't wanna hear from you.

00:03:45 ◼   ► probably everybody, but if for like the two people out there who have been doing it wrong

00:03:49 ◼   ► and who I just like, you know, blew your mind with how to do it correctly, please let me

00:03:52 ◼   ► know if there were any of you out there. There probably aren't.

00:03:56 ◼   ► Hey John, I hear something curious. It sounds... It sounded like a chicken, John.

00:04:05 ◼   ► Beautiful impression. Thank you. So, hey, it's that time of year again. The

00:04:09 ◼   ► ATP store is back, the ATP holiday season store, whatever you want to call it. And we

00:04:14 ◼   ► We have some exciting new merchandise for you this year.

00:04:17 ◼   ► As always, the URL is ATP.FM/store.

00:04:21 ◼   ► Run right there now and see what we've got.

00:04:24 ◼   ► And the most exciting thing we have for you

00:04:26 ◼   ► is a brand new product this year that started,

00:04:29 ◼   ► let me see, I wrote this down somewhere.

00:04:31 ◼   ► In November of 2021, we were contacted by Dan at Studio Neat

00:04:36 ◼   ► maker of many fine products that you may have heard of,

00:04:39 ◼   ► studioneat.com.

00:04:42 ◼   ► And he said, "Hey, I heard you talking about

00:04:44 ◼   ► your chicken hat on the episode."

00:04:46 ◼   ► This was a recent episode in 2021.

00:04:48 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:04:49 ◼   ► And I gave him an idea.

00:04:50 ◼   ► What do you think about the idea

00:04:52 ◼   ► of trying to replicate that chicken hat?

00:04:53 ◼   ► Studio Neat makes all sorts of products.

00:04:56 ◼   ► So they have expertise in this area.

00:04:57 ◼   ► And I said, "All right, sure, we could try that."

00:05:01 ◼   ► And it has more or less taken this long

00:05:03 ◼   ► to get everything together.

00:05:05 ◼   ► You know, obviously COVID supply chain, blah, blah, blah.

00:05:08 ◼   ► But we went through a process

00:05:10 ◼   ► over the course of several months,

00:05:11 ◼   ► I guess more than a year now of sourcing materials and comparing to my original one and only

00:05:18 ◼   ► chicken hat to try to make a reproduction of my personal chicken hat.

00:05:22 ◼   ► Now there are many caveats to this, okay?

00:05:24 ◼   ► Many things to consider.

00:05:25 ◼   ► For people who don't know the story, my chicken hat is a winter hat that I really like and

00:05:29 ◼   ► I was musing on a show apparently in 2021 that I just have this one hat and if I lose

00:05:33 ◼   ► this hat I can't buy another one like it and I never see anything like it in the store

00:05:37 ◼   ► anymore and there are multiple things that make this hat unique, not to rehash everything

00:05:41 ◼   ► I said there but it's kind of a weird shape. Dan has a post about it at student

00:05:44 ◼   ► meet we'll put a link to his blog post as well. You got to see a picture of me

00:05:47 ◼   ► wearing the hat. He says it's you can't find hats of this shape. You can find

00:05:51 ◼   ► hats of this shape but you can't find hats that are both this shape and also

00:05:54 ◼   ► this construction constructed in this way of this material right I just never

00:05:59 ◼   ► seen anything like it I'm always buying hats trying to be replacement for this hat

00:06:03 ◼   ► I can't do it so now he essentially made one of my own. Now my hat that's like

00:06:07 ◼   ► this my chicken hat is over 20 years old I can't put an exact date on it but I did

00:06:12 ◼   ► find photos showing it's at least 20 years old. It's been through the

00:06:15 ◼   ► wash many times. I'm sure it has changed size over the course of 20 years I'm

00:06:21 ◼   ► going through the wash how could it not right but that's where we're at right so

00:06:25 ◼   ► we made a chicken hat reproduction that exactly matches the size the current

00:06:30 ◼   ► size of my chicken hat. I have no idea how big this hat was when I started making it. 20 years of

00:06:36 ◼   ► being stretched out, basically.

00:06:38 ◼   ► - Or shrinking in the dryer, I don't know.

00:06:41 ◼   ► All right, second thing, that my chicken hat

00:06:44 ◼   ► is one size fits all.

00:06:45 ◼   ► It says it right on the tag inside the hat.

00:06:47 ◼   ► So I don't have a small hat, a medium hat, a large hat.

00:06:49 ◼   ► This hat was sold in whatever year I bought it

00:06:51 ◼   ► as one size fits all.

00:06:53 ◼   ► So the hat we made is one size fits all.

00:06:56 ◼   ► It is exactly the same size, like you could lay it,

00:06:59 ◼   ► 'cause I went through several prototypes,

00:07:00 ◼   ► you can lay this hat down on top of my hat,

00:07:03 ◼   ► they are exactly the same size.

00:07:05 ◼   ► Is that good? Is that bad? I don't know.

00:07:08 ◼   ► Now, another thing. We went through materials.

00:07:11 ◼   ► And this unique folks sent me many, many stacks of, like,

00:07:14 ◼   ► Felty-type materials from the same company that makes it.

00:07:16 ◼   ► We figured that Polartec made the material for my hat,

00:07:19 ◼   ► so we were talking to Polartec to get their list of materials.

00:07:22 ◼   ► Nobody makes exactly the same materials this hat is made of,

00:07:25 ◼   ► which isn't surprising since it was made more than 20 years ago, right?

00:07:28 ◼   ► But we got as close as we could.

00:07:30 ◼   ► But as close as we could is different than this hat

00:07:33 ◼   ► than this hat in a couple of specific ways.

00:07:36 ◼   ► One, it is definitely thinner than my hat, which I think, for people who are considering

00:07:42 ◼   ► buying this, is a bonus because my hat is extremely thick and extremely hot and most

00:07:46 ◼   ► people would not want to wear it because on a day that's not, you know, negative 20 degrees,

00:07:51 ◼   ► you get hot and sweaty in it.

00:07:53 ◼   ► So this one is thinner, but I think that's an advantage.

00:07:55 ◼   ► And the second thing is, my hat, after 20 years of going through the dryer, feels a

00:07:59 ◼   ► little tight on my head.

00:08:01 ◼   ► This reproduction hat, which is exactly the same size

00:08:04 ◼   ► when you lay them on top of each other,

00:08:05 ◼   ► does not feel as tight because the material is not as thick

00:08:08 ◼   ► so it gives more.

00:08:09 ◼   ► So I'm hoping it will fit more people with big heads.

00:08:12 ◼   ► I don't know about people with small heads,

00:08:13 ◼   ► I don't know how much of this one's gonna shrink.

00:08:14 ◼   ► What will this hat look like in 20 years?

00:08:16 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:08:17 ◼   ► But we did the best we could with the material we have,

00:08:19 ◼   ► which is we've got the one hat

00:08:21 ◼   ► and we reproduced it as closely as possible.

00:08:23 ◼   ► I wish I had taken up some better photos

00:08:24 ◼   ► of like my hat and this hat laying on top of each other.

00:08:27 ◼   ► The seams line up, the construction is the same way,

00:08:29 ◼   ► Every dimension is identical,

00:08:31 ◼   ► and it is as close to the same material as we could get.

00:08:34 ◼   ► I spared the world the exact matching of the color

00:08:38 ◼   ► because my hat is kind of a forest green.

00:08:41 ◼   ► I don't know why it's that color.

00:08:42 ◼   ► I don't think I even picked this hat.

00:08:43 ◼   ► My dad might've originally bought it,

00:08:44 ◼   ► and I could have stolen it from him.

00:08:45 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:08:46 ◼   ► Why is my hat green?

00:08:47 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:08:48 ◼   ► We could have made this one green, but we didn't.

00:08:50 ◼   ► So we had mercy on people who might consider buying this

00:08:53 ◼   ► as a joke or whatever.

00:08:54 ◼   ► It is black.

00:08:55 ◼   ► The ATP Chicken Hat is black.

00:08:57 ◼   ► That goes with more stuff, and it also matches our logo.

00:08:59 ◼   ► We got a little tag on the side that has our logo on it.

00:09:01 ◼   ► So there you go.

00:09:04 ◼   ► We didn't know how many of these things we would sell

00:09:06 ◼   ► as a joke or whatever.

00:09:08 ◼   ► Does anyone wanna wear a chicken hat?

00:09:09 ◼   ► Does anyone wear winter hats at all?

00:09:11 ◼   ► Who knows?

00:09:12 ◼   ► But we had to guess at how many we might sell

00:09:15 ◼   ► and then we had to calculate how many we would have to sell

00:09:17 ◼   ► to make up, these are the type we buy ahead of time, right?

00:09:20 ◼   ► So we have to sell a certain number of these

00:09:21 ◼   ► even just to break even.

00:09:22 ◼   ► So please, if you're even remotely inclined to buy this hat,

00:09:25 ◼   ► please do so we don't lose money on them.

00:09:28 ◼   ► to find out that no one in the world wants chicken hats.

00:09:30 ◼   ► - Otherwise John will have to buy hundreds

00:09:32 ◼   ► and hundreds of chicken hats.

00:09:33 ◼   ► - Yeah, otherwise I'll, yeah, I've now made hundreds

00:09:35 ◼   ► of backup hats myself.

00:09:36 ◼   ► - Which itself might be a fun bit for the show.

00:09:38 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:09:39 ◼   ► - That's true.

00:09:40 ◼   ► On the flip side of that, if everybody wants to get this,

00:09:43 ◼   ► 'cause it's a funny joke and you could say,

00:09:44 ◼   ► "Hey, look at my funny chicken hat,"

00:09:45 ◼   ► they could all sell out by tomorrow and then sorry,

00:09:48 ◼   ► 'cause we're not, you know, probably,

00:09:49 ◼   ► we don't have the ability to make more

00:09:51 ◼   ► of these instantaneously.

00:09:51 ◼   ► If they do sell out and there seems to be more demand,

00:09:53 ◼   ► maybe we'll do it next year,

00:09:54 ◼   ► but probably this is a one-time thing.

00:09:56 ◼   ► So if you want an ATP chicken hat,

00:09:58 ◼   ► I think they're good hats.

00:09:59 ◼   ► I think the chicken shape is a valuable shape.

00:10:01 ◼   ► I think it's distinctive.

00:10:02 ◼   ► And I think this is a comfortable hat and it's nice.

00:10:04 ◼   ► And I think, again, the fact that it is thinner

00:10:06 ◼   ► than my really, really thick hat is an advantage,

00:10:09 ◼   ► not a disadvantage, because almost everybody

00:10:10 ◼   ► who has ever seen or tried on my hat says,

00:10:12 ◼   ► "I could never wear this, it would be too hot."

00:10:14 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:10:15 ◼   ► So that's the chicken hat.

00:10:17 ◼   ► - That is the chicken hat.

00:10:18 ◼   ► I am genuinely so glad and thankful

00:10:21 ◼   ► that Dan and the Studio&E team were able to,

00:10:23 ◼   ► were willing to reach out and deal with you,

00:10:26 ◼   ► who must be the world's worst client.

00:10:29 ◼   ► I say that with love, but nevertheless.

00:10:31 ◼   ► - I got many different samples,

00:10:32 ◼   ► but it was clear which direction we were going.

00:10:35 ◼   ► That's the other thing.

00:10:36 ◼   ► When you're comparing, like I get little fabric squares,

00:10:37 ◼   ► right, when you're comparing them,

00:10:39 ◼   ► I'm comparing them to a 20-year-old hat

00:10:40 ◼   ► that's been through the wash a million times.

00:10:42 ◼   ► It's not gonna be the same with a brand new fabric sample.

00:10:44 ◼   ► I don't know what these fabric samples

00:10:45 ◼   ► are gonna look like for 20 years in the wash,

00:10:47 ◼   ► so you just gotta do the best you can.

00:10:49 ◼   ► But there was some clear winners towards the end.

00:10:51 ◼   ► It was down to one or two options,

00:10:52 ◼   ► and I think we picked the right one.

00:10:54 ◼   ► So there you go, that's the chicken hat.

00:10:55 ◼   ► We also have an M2 shirt.

00:10:59 ◼   ► It's like the M1 shirt,

00:11:00 ◼   ► but it has one more number on the front.

00:11:02 ◼   ► The chip on the back is in fact the M2,

00:11:03 ◼   ► it is not the M1 chip on the back.

00:11:05 ◼   ► It's the same as we've always done.

00:11:06 ◼   ► We've got the horrendously expensive one

00:11:09 ◼   ► with the chip on the back and the rainbow colors

00:11:10 ◼   ► in the front that takes like eight printing passes to make.

00:11:13 ◼   ► And then we have the monochrome one that is less expensive.

00:11:15 ◼   ► And speaking of costs, last time we had a sale,

00:11:18 ◼   ► we said that our prices were going,

00:11:20 ◼   ► our cost to us was going up in all these things

00:11:22 ◼   ► because of, you know, who knows, whatever.

00:11:25 ◼   ► but we were keeping the prices the same,

00:11:26 ◼   ► but that probably wouldn't continue.

00:11:28 ◼   ► Well, this is the part where it doesn't continue

00:11:29 ◼   ► because we held the prices down on the last sale.

00:11:32 ◼   ► I hope you enjoyed them.

00:11:34 ◼   ► Now the price of pretty much everything is increased

00:11:36 ◼   ► because the cost to us is increased.

00:11:37 ◼   ► And we haven't passed on all of the cost to us.

00:11:39 ◼   ► We have passed on some of it though.

00:11:41 ◼   ► So we apologize for the high prices,

00:11:43 ◼   ► but if we had kept the prices the same,

00:11:45 ◼   ► there are some products in our lineup

00:11:46 ◼   ► that we would literally be losing money on

00:11:47 ◼   ► every one we sold.

00:11:48 ◼   ► So we actually had to increase the prices.

00:11:51 ◼   ► We know it sucks.

00:11:52 ◼   ► You know, what can I tell you?

00:11:54 ◼   ► It is what it is.

00:11:55 ◼   ► That's why we do things like the monochrome shirt,

00:11:57 ◼   ► because the monochrome shirt is less expensive

00:11:58 ◼   ► than the other one,

00:11:59 ◼   ► 'cause we have to do fewer printing passes,

00:12:00 ◼   ► so consider that if you wanna save money.

00:12:02 ◼   ► And of course we have our regular ATP shirt

00:12:04 ◼   ► that we always have.

00:12:05 ◼   ► We have the ATP hoodie, which is still fantastic.

00:12:07 ◼   ► It's kind of like the chicken hat.

00:12:08 ◼   ► I kind of dread the day that the ATP hoodie goes away,

00:12:11 ◼   ► because I think they're great.

00:12:12 ◼   ► My kids really love them.

00:12:14 ◼   ► It's a great hoodie.

00:12:15 ◼   ► And of course we got the pint glass

00:12:16 ◼   ► that we're still selling through, believe it or not.

00:12:18 ◼   ► Still got some pint glasses left over.

00:12:20 ◼   ► - I don't understand how.

00:12:21 ◼   ► I love the pint glass.

00:12:23 ◼   ► It's like my only glass that I regularly use at home.

00:12:26 ◼   ► It's so good.

00:12:27 ◼   ► - My family loves them.

00:12:27 ◼   ► We ordered four more on the last sale, I think.

00:12:29 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think I have a total of like six or eight now

00:12:31 ◼   ► because I got like two the first time,

00:12:33 ◼   ► realized that was nowhere near enough,

00:12:35 ◼   ► and then ordered another like four or six

00:12:37 ◼   ► or something like that.

00:12:38 ◼   ► - Yep, and then finally, the most exciting thing,

00:12:40 ◼   ► the ATP mug with the red lining is back.

00:12:42 ◼   ► Last time we had to get it with the gray lining

00:12:44 ◼   ► 'cause we literally couldn't get the one

00:12:45 ◼   ► with the red lining,

00:12:46 ◼   ► and I think the gray lining looks nice too,

00:12:48 ◼   ► and I hope everybody who wants to have a more chill mug

00:12:50 ◼   ► got the gray lining ones last time,

00:12:51 ◼   ► but the red ones, the red ones are back

00:12:54 ◼   ► and only the red ones.

00:12:55 ◼   ► And again, these are the type of,

00:12:57 ◼   ► the mugs are the type of thing where we have to guess

00:12:59 ◼   ► how many we're gonna sell and we buy them all ahead of time.

00:13:00 ◼   ► So fingers crossed on the mugs.

00:13:03 ◼   ► We've got mugs, we've got pint glasses, hoodies, t-shirts,

00:13:06 ◼   ► and of course the chicken hat.

00:13:07 ◼   ► So if you're, oh, this sale runs until Sunday, November 13th.

00:13:12 ◼   ► We try to do the sales early as possible

00:13:15 ◼   ► to have a hope of getting shipments out before the holidays.

00:13:19 ◼   ► Hopefully it will all work out.

00:13:21 ◼   ► no guarantees obviously, but we're gonna do our best there.

00:13:24 ◼   ► And if you are listening to the show

00:13:26 ◼   ► and you would like someone to buy you one of these things

00:13:29 ◼   ► as a holiday present, you have to send them the URL.

00:13:32 ◼   ► Like you can't be subtle about it.

00:13:34 ◼   ► The sale only runs until November 13th.

00:13:37 ◼   ► You have to send the link and say,

00:13:39 ◼   ► hey, you have three weeks to buy me something

00:13:41 ◼   ► from this store, here's what I want.

00:13:42 ◼   ► You can't be subtle about it.

00:13:43 ◼   ► Don't just hope your significant other

00:13:46 ◼   ► is going to hear you listening to the podcast

00:13:48 ◼   ► and say, oh, that's a great idea.

00:13:49 ◼   ► I should get one of those things.

00:13:50 ◼   ► just give them the link, right?

00:13:52 ◼   ► 'Cause people wanna know what they wanted to buy for you.

00:13:53 ◼   ► And if you want some of this weird nerdy stuff,

00:13:55 ◼   ► they're not gonna guess,

00:13:56 ◼   ► they're not gonna find it on their own.

00:13:57 ◼   ► We have no SEO, our only SEO is you.

00:14:00 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:14:01 ◼   ► ATP.fm/store.

00:14:03 ◼   ► - Also, Jon, if you wanted to save a little money,

00:14:08 ◼   ► how would you go about doing that?

00:14:10 ◼   ► - Yes, that's right.

00:14:10 ◼   ► I almost forgot about that, thank you, Casey.

00:14:12 ◼   ► If you are an ATP member, as always,

00:14:14 ◼   ► you get 15% off everything in the store.

00:14:17 ◼   ► If you're not an ATP member, you can become an ATP member

00:14:20 ◼   ► and get that 50% off and it's pretty easy,

00:14:23 ◼   ► due to the high prices, everything in the stupid store,

00:14:25 ◼   ► to make up the cost of membership for one month

00:14:28 ◼   ► in the savings that you get.

00:14:29 ◼   ► So as always, you can do the thing

00:14:31 ◼   ► where you become a member for one month,

00:14:33 ◼   ► you get your 50% off, you buy a bunch of t-shirts,

00:14:36 ◼   ► and then when the month is over,

00:14:37 ◼   ► you cancel your membership.

00:14:38 ◼   ► We make it very easy to do that.

00:14:40 ◼   ► It's like the good services

00:14:42 ◼   ► that use the iCloud subscribe page.

00:14:43 ◼   ► It's really easy to sign up, watch Elasso,

00:14:45 ◼   ► and unsubscribe, and sign up again

00:14:46 ◼   ► and watch something and unsubscribe.

00:14:47 ◼   ► You can do that with ATP membership.

00:14:49 ◼   ► We don't start a mission with that, but it can be done.

00:14:52 ◼   ► It's really easy to do.

00:14:53 ◼   ► We know that people do it.

00:14:54 ◼   ► So there it is.

00:14:55 ◼   ► Don't, like, if you're, honestly,

00:14:57 ◼   ► if you're gonna buy literally anything in the store,

00:14:58 ◼   ► just become a member, get the discount.

00:15:00 ◼   ► Like it's almost not worth it to, you know, anyway.

00:15:03 ◼   ► At top of the page, it has links to do all that stuff.

00:15:06 ◼   ► 15% off for all members.

00:15:07 ◼   ► And if you are a member, go to your member page,

00:15:09 ◼   ► grab your coupon code, and put it in the promo code field

00:15:12 ◼   ► during checkout at the Cotton Bureau site,

00:15:14 ◼   ► and you will get 15% off.

00:15:16 ◼   ► Please, I beg you, this is the time where I have to make the speech, and without fail,

00:15:22 ◼   ► every year somebody reaches out, "Oh, you were right, you were right."

00:15:26 ◼   ► So here's the thing, especially if you're looking for a chicken hat, a mug, or a glass,

00:15:31 ◼   ► because those things are, there are a limited amount of them.

00:15:35 ◼   ► But even for the shirts, you don't want to miss out.

00:15:37 ◼   ► For the hoodie, you don't want to miss out on the hoodie.

00:15:39 ◼   ► It's a freaking delightful hoodie.

00:15:40 ◼   ► So if you're not in a position to order right now at ATP.fm/store, think about the next

00:15:46 ◼   ► time you can.

00:15:47 ◼   ► Maybe it's at your desk at work, if you're going back to work.

00:15:50 ◼   ► Maybe it's your desk at home.

00:15:51 ◼   ► Maybe it's once you get to the place you're driving right now or walking or what have

00:15:56 ◼   ► you or bicycling.

00:15:58 ◼   ► Think and vision.

00:16:00 ◼   ► Put yourself in that place and think to yourself, "I need to treat myself and go to ATP.fm/store

00:16:06 ◼   ► when I get to that place."

00:16:08 ◼   ► You don't need to stop walking, particularly if you're in Manhattan.

00:16:11 ◼   ► Don't stop walking.

00:16:12 ◼   ► Just go where you're going.

00:16:13 ◼   ► You don't need to stop in the middle of the road.

00:16:14 ◼   ► You don't even need to pull over necessarily, but envision the place you're going and go

00:16:18 ◼   ► to ATP.fm/store and buy yourself a chicken hat or a mug or a glass or one of the shirts

00:16:25 ◼   ► or hoodies or what have you.

00:16:26 ◼   ► Do that.

00:16:27 ◼   ► Make everyone happy.

00:16:28 ◼   ► But also remember to go to ATP.fm/join and join if you haven't already.

00:16:32 ◼   ► And unlike what Jon says, you have mine and Marco's

00:16:36 ◼   ► full permission to forget to cancel your membership.

00:16:39 ◼   ► That is totally okay.

00:16:41 ◼   ► We are okay with that, Marco and I, maybe not Jon,

00:16:43 ◼   ► but Marco and I are okay with you forgetting to cancel.

00:16:45 ◼   ► - It's not about forgetting to cancel,

00:16:46 ◼   ► it's about once you have the membership

00:16:48 ◼   ► and you start listening to the show without ads,

00:16:49 ◼   ► or you enjoyed the bootleg or something like that,

00:16:51 ◼   ► or you hear the member special content

00:16:54 ◼   ► with our three ATP movie club things,

00:16:56 ◼   ► you're like, "Hey, membership is actually kinda good."

00:16:58 ◼   ► That's why you keep doing it,

00:16:59 ◼   ► because it provides value to you.

00:17:00 ◼   ► Because when you go back to the regular feed,

00:17:02 ◼   ► and it's not as good anymore.

00:17:03 ◼   ► So yeah, stay a member for that reason, I hope.

00:17:06 ◼   ► - Yeah, definitely.

00:17:07 ◼   ► All right, we will remind you just a couple more times

00:17:09 ◼   ► and that'll be that.

00:17:10 ◼   ► - Yeah, we do structure these sales

00:17:12 ◼   ► so we have three episodes where we can remind you.

00:17:14 ◼   ► That's how we arrange the dates, just FYI.

00:17:16 ◼   ► And speaking of like not missing out on things,

00:17:19 ◼   ► there's missing out on the sale, which is like,

00:17:20 ◼   ► oh, I forgot about the sale and now it's over

00:17:22 ◼   ► because you're like on November 15th,

00:17:23 ◼   ► you're like, oh no, I missed it, right?

00:17:25 ◼   ► But I can tell you inventory wise,

00:17:27 ◼   ► the thing we have the least number of is the pint glasses

00:17:29 ◼   ► and we are not ordering any more of them.

00:17:31 ◼   ► So if you really want a pint glass, get that ASAP.

00:17:34 ◼   ► The second least number of things we have

00:17:35 ◼   ► are mugs and chicken hats.

00:17:37 ◼   ► So if you were interested in mug, chicken hat,

00:17:39 ◼   ► or pint glasses, just order it now so you don't miss out.

00:17:42 ◼   ► I'm not sure that we're gonna sell out of all these things,

00:17:44 ◼   ► but better safe than sorry.

00:17:45 ◼   ► And the other ones are print on demand.

00:17:47 ◼   ► We see how many we buy and then we print that many of them.

00:17:49 ◼   ► So the only thing you have to worry about for the shirts

00:17:51 ◼   ► and the hoodie is buying before the sale ends on November 13th.

00:17:55 ◼   ► - Yep, please and thank you.

00:17:58 ◼   ► Let's do some follow up.

00:17:59 ◼   ► A couple episodes ago, I believe it was,

00:18:01 ◼   ► I was going and waxing poetic about how much I love my new Sonos setup, and I got a Costco

00:18:07 ◼   ► flyer in the physical snail mail, I think it was yesterday or the day before, where

00:18:12 ◼   ► I noticed that a couple of the items that I purchased are actually going to be on sale

00:18:16 ◼   ► at Costco right after our sale ends, coincidentally.

00:18:20 ◼   ► The Sonos Arc that I have, kind of, and I'll explain in a second, is going to be on sale

00:18:28 ◼   ► for $700, normally retails for $900.

00:18:30 ◼   ► There is a catch there, we'll come back to that in a sec.

00:18:33 ◼   ► The One SL, which is a speaker that you can use either singularly or in a stereo pair,

00:18:38 ◼   ► but what I did is, and this is what Sonos often recommends, is I used them as my rear

00:18:42 ◼   ► speakers.

00:18:43 ◼   ► Those are going down from $400 to $300.

00:18:46 ◼   ► Now, one catch, all of these, the ARC and the One SL, it's actually an ARC SL and a

00:18:52 ◼   ► One SL.

00:18:53 ◼   ► SL, I don't know what it actually stands for, but what it means in Sonos speak is it does

00:18:56 ◼   ► does not have any sort of microphone or voice recognition,

00:19:00 ◼   ► which in some ways is a feature, not a bug.

00:19:03 ◼   ► But I will say that Sonos's voice control

00:19:07 ◼   ► is really, really good, and I think we spoke briefly

00:19:09 ◼   ► about it an episode or two ago,

00:19:10 ◼   ► that it's actually Gus Spring, or whatever,

00:19:12 ◼   ► what's the guy's name, from Breaking Bad?

00:19:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, the actor who plays Gus Spring.

00:19:17 ◼   ► I forget the actor's name.

00:19:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, same, but anyway, he does the voice,

00:19:19 ◼   ► which is kind of funny, and it's actually really,

00:19:21 ◼   ► really good, because as far as I'm aware,

00:19:23 ◼   ► it's all local on device, so it doesn't do anything

00:19:26 ◼   ► complex, but in terms of like, you know, turn it up, turn it down, stop playback,

00:19:29 ◼   ► join, such and such, etc. It's really, really good. And I like having it on my

00:19:33 ◼   ► ARC, because I do not have the ARC SL, I have just the ARC. Again, SL means no

00:19:38 ◼   ► voice control. But for what it's worth, the ARC goes down 200 bucks, the ONE goes

00:19:42 ◼   ► down 100 bucks, and actually I believe that's for a pair of ONES. I'm sorry, I

00:19:47 ◼   ► didn't say that earlier. So it's two of the rear speakers goes from $400 to $300,

00:19:52 ◼   ► and one of the soundbars goes from 900 to 700

00:19:55 ◼   ► if you happen to be near an American Costco.

00:19:57 ◼   ► I just wanted you to be aware.

00:20:00 ◼   ► Then we got some fascinating feedback from Andrew Chase.

00:20:03 ◼   ► Andrew is a pilot for a major American airline

00:20:05 ◼   ► and he wanted to share some things.

00:20:07 ◼   ► So he said, "I wanna share with you

00:20:09 ◼   ► some things regarding personal electronic devices.

00:20:11 ◼   ► The FAA and airlines started really evaluating

00:20:14 ◼   ► the threat of battery fires once Samsung had their phone

00:20:16 ◼   ► that was routinely catching fire.

00:20:18 ◼   ► I don't know how many, but there were several incidents

00:20:20 ◼   ► as a result of defective Samsung devices.

00:20:22 ◼   ► There have been other issues where devices

00:20:23 ◼   ► have been either crushed by the seats

00:20:25 ◼   ► or in the overhead bins.

00:20:27 ◼   ► The pilots on this particular airline

00:20:29 ◼   ► each have an 11-inch iPad Pro,

00:20:31 ◼   ► and all of our flight attendants have large screen iPhones.

00:20:33 ◼   ► Andrew couldn't remember exactly which model.

00:20:35 ◼   ► The threat is so great that we have to carry

00:20:37 ◼   ► two thermal containment bags and fire-retardant gloves.

00:20:42 ◼   ► We have one bag large enough to fit our iPads

00:20:45 ◼   ► that we keep on the flight deck,

00:20:46 ◼   ► and there's another bag kept in the passenger cabin

00:20:48 ◼   ► that can hold up to a 17-inch laptop.

00:20:51 ◼   ► And there's a picture that has been attached

00:20:53 ◼   ► that hopefully will be the chapter art in the MP3.

00:20:57 ◼   ► I find this fascinating.

00:20:59 ◼   ► This is all, I'm sorry, I forgot to establish context.

00:21:01 ◼   ► This is all with regard to,

00:21:03 ◼   ► don't reach in between the seats to get your phone.

00:21:06 ◼   ► Step aside and let the flight attendant handle it for you.

00:21:10 ◼   ► Well, this is why, because these things,

00:21:12 ◼   ► apparently there's a real honest-to-goodness fear

00:21:14 ◼   ► that something will catch on fire.

00:21:15 ◼   ► I just found this absolutely fascinating.

00:21:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, I do wonder if people would be able

00:21:19 ◼   ► to get to those materials in time,

00:21:21 ◼   ► if there's a device that catches fire.

00:21:22 ◼   ► I don't know if you've ever seen those videos online

00:21:24 ◼   ► of what it looks like when a lithium-ion battery goes up.

00:21:27 ◼   ► It goes up fast, then it goes up big.

00:21:29 ◼   ► Of course you need the gloves,

00:21:30 ◼   ► 'cause it's not like you can grab this thing

00:21:32 ◼   ► and put it in the fire bag or whatever.

00:21:34 ◼   ► So first you need the gloves, then you need the bag,

00:21:36 ◼   ► and then you need the wherewithal

00:21:37 ◼   ► to grab this thing with the gloves.

00:21:39 ◼   ► You think, "Oh, so what?

00:21:40 ◼   ► "I have the gloves on, they protect me from the fire."

00:21:42 ◼   ► Watch the videos.

00:21:43 ◼   ► You probably don't wanna come with an arm's length

00:21:44 ◼   ► of something that's going off like one of these things.

00:21:46 ◼   ► Then you put it in the bag, then presumably you seal up the bag, I guess, so the flames

00:21:50 ◼   ► don't shoot everywhere.

00:21:51 ◼   ► Anyway, firearm planes, no good.

00:21:53 ◼   ► Do not want.

00:21:55 ◼   ► Can you tell me about apple mouse shape history, please?

00:21:59 ◼   ► I can, but first some real-time follow-up from someone in the chat room was asking,

00:22:02 ◼   ► "It's hard to tell what the chicken hat might look like on someone's head.

00:22:04 ◼   ► In fact, if you've never experienced a hat like this, you might be wondering, 'How do

00:22:07 ◼   ► I even wear it?

00:22:08 ◼   ► Which direction does it face on my head?'"

00:22:10 ◼   ► So if you go to the show notes for this episode, you can find the show notes at ATP.FM.

00:22:16 ◼   ► will see a link to the Studio Neat blog post about this collaboration and in the

00:22:21 ◼   ► Studio Neat blog post it's a picture of me wearing the hat at some point in the

00:22:24 ◼   ► fairly distant past and I'm not wearing this hat I'm wearing my original hat but

00:22:28 ◼   ► as I said this hat if you lay it down on top of my original hat exactly lines up

00:22:33 ◼   ► in every feature so the photo is accurate just imagine the hat being not

00:22:38 ◼   ► that color green and imagine you know me being a lot older than I am in that

00:22:43 ◼   ► picture. Tell me about mouse shapes. Yeah so this is about, Marco was talking about how he loves the

00:22:49 ◼   ► the current Apple Sushi mouse and you know it's a high quality mouse and he likes the shape of it

00:22:54 ◼   ► he likes the features and who I was listening back to the show as I do I was reminded of I thought I'd

00:22:59 ◼   ► even said this in the show but I guess I didn't I was reminded of my various Apple mouse loves

00:23:06 ◼   ► over the years right so the very first mouse I ever used was the mouse on the original Macintosh

00:23:11 ◼   ► in 1984, which was basically a box

00:23:13 ◼   ► with the corners knocked off the top edge.

00:23:17 ◼   ► Extremely, I'm extremely boxy.

00:23:19 ◼   ► It was a box, right?

00:23:20 ◼   ► And the contemporary mice on other systems

00:23:24 ◼   ► were also similar, like it was easier to make a box

00:23:27 ◼   ► with a mouse ball in it and a button on it or whatever,

00:23:29 ◼   ► but it had some style, it had some panache,

00:23:31 ◼   ► but I think that first mouse basically dictated

00:23:35 ◼   ► how I would use a mouse for the rest of my life.

00:23:38 ◼   ► because it was a box, it's got, you know, it's a rectangle,

00:23:41 ◼   ► it's got flat sides, right?

00:23:43 ◼   ► And that's why I grip the mouse with my thumb

00:23:47 ◼   ► and my like, pinky and ring finger

00:23:50 ◼   ► on opposing sides of the mouse

00:23:52 ◼   ► with two fingers on top of it, right?

00:23:54 ◼   ► Because the flat sides let you do that.

00:23:56 ◼   ► And so any mouse that does not have a flat side

00:23:58 ◼   ► for me to grip in that way feels weird to me

00:24:00 ◼   ► because that's what I'm always trying to do.

00:24:01 ◼   ► If you try to grab the sushi mouse from the sides

00:24:04 ◼   ► with your thumb on one side

00:24:06 ◼   ► and your pinky and ring finger on the other,

00:24:07 ◼   ► It doesn't work 'cause the sides aren't straight,

00:24:09 ◼   ► the sides are very small, and if you actually do squeeze it,

00:24:11 ◼   ► it like pushes the mouse upward.

00:24:13 ◼   ► It's not how you're supposed to use that mouse.

00:24:15 ◼   ► So that kind of cemented that.

00:24:17 ◼   ► But the reason I brought this up is

00:24:19 ◼   ► that was the mouse on the Mac 128

00:24:22 ◼   ► and the original Macintosh, the 512, the Plus.

00:24:26 ◼   ► But when the SE came out,

00:24:27 ◼   ► Apple changed the shape of the mouse,

00:24:29 ◼   ► drastically changed the shape of the mouse.

00:24:31 ◼   ► You look with the mouse and the SE look like

00:24:34 ◼   ► it was way lower profile.

00:24:36 ◼   ► It still had flat sides

00:24:37 ◼   ► and they're still higher than the Sushi mouse,

00:24:39 ◼   ► but the top of it was like angled like a little ramp

00:24:42 ◼   ► that leaned forward and it was a smaller ramp on the back.

00:24:45 ◼   ► I don't know, you can find some pictures of it online.

00:24:46 ◼   ► But anyway, and I was like, whoa, what are you doing, Apple?

00:24:50 ◼   ► I liked your old mouse, it fit my hand well,

00:24:52 ◼   ► and now you give me this really,

00:24:53 ◼   ► it was almost like the Sushi mouse.

00:24:55 ◼   ► It was like, yeah, it's so small and slight.

00:24:56 ◼   ► And in reality, it was huge compared to the Sushi mouse,

00:24:59 ◼   ► but it was a big change.

00:25:00 ◼   ► And over the years, Apple has always,

00:25:02 ◼   ► well, for the most part, has made mice for its computers

00:25:05 ◼   ► that are high quality.

00:25:06 ◼   ► There were some exceptions up there with like the,

00:25:08 ◼   ► what was that one with the little roller ball in it?

00:25:10 ◼   ► It was like, whatever it was that,

00:25:11 ◼   ► there was like the iMac G5 error maybe.

00:25:14 ◼   ► That was not a good one.

00:25:15 ◼   ► The original Mighty Mouse.

00:25:16 ◼   ► Anyway, over the years, Apple has made a bunch of mice,

00:25:18 ◼   ► but every, I don't know,

00:25:20 ◼   ► I was gonna say every decade or two,

00:25:21 ◼   ► every five, 10 years,

00:25:24 ◼   ► they would radically change their mouse.

00:25:26 ◼   ► So there was the mouse and the SE.

00:25:28 ◼   ► Then the next big one was the ADB mouse

00:25:31 ◼   ► that was very curved and everything.

00:25:32 ◼   ► That mouse was great, loved it.

00:25:34 ◼   ► It was still kind of low profile,

00:25:35 ◼   ► but the shape was very comfortable, it looked modern,

00:25:38 ◼   ► had a huge button on top of it,

00:25:39 ◼   ► it was the whole front half of it was a button.

00:25:42 ◼   ► There was the Puck Mouse, nobody likes that.

00:25:43 ◼   ► There was the Apology Mouse, which I kind of liked,

00:25:46 ◼   ► even though, again, it was still kind of low profile.

00:25:48 ◼   ► There's the Sushi Mouse,

00:25:49 ◼   ► like there was the Mighty Mouse mixed in there.

00:25:52 ◼   ► I bring this up because Marco loves the Sushi Mouse.

00:25:54 ◼   ► Someday, if Marco keeps on living,

00:25:57 ◼   ► Apple's gonna change the mouse,

00:25:58 ◼   ► and they're probably gonna change it

00:25:59 ◼   ► in a way that he doesn't like.

00:26:01 ◼   ► So I wanted to give some perspective

00:26:02 ◼   ► from my history with Apple,

00:26:03 ◼   ► that Apple makes high quality mice, but they don't make the same mouse forever.

00:26:08 ◼   ► And when they change it, they tend to leave behind all the people who love their previous

00:26:11 ◼   ► one because the new one reflects the new thinking.

00:26:13 ◼   ► And in the case of the hockey puck, they leave behind anyone because the hockey puck, I guess

00:26:17 ◼   ► some people still like the hockey puck, but it was fatally flawed, let's say.

00:26:21 ◼   ► Even when they put a divot in the button so you could tell which direction it was facing.

00:26:24 ◼   ► Nice job, Apple.

00:26:26 ◼   ► So be aware.

00:26:28 ◼   ► If you love your Apple mouse, maybe get as many of them as you can and hope they work

00:26:32 ◼   ► for your computers for a long time,

00:26:33 ◼   ► kind of like people did with the Apple Extended Keyboard 2.

00:26:36 ◼   ► - I mean, the funny thing is, well, first of all,

00:26:39 ◼   ► I don't think it's ever going to be difficult

00:26:40 ◼   ► to find these since everyone who's ever bought an iMac

00:26:44 ◼   ► probably has one in their closet unopened.

00:26:47 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:26:48 ◼   ► There's so many of these lying around

00:26:49 ◼   ► that people got as pack-ins for their desktops

00:26:52 ◼   ► that they never used.

00:26:54 ◼   ► - But eventually you'll need,

00:26:55 ◼   ► like we used to have the USB to ADB adapters

00:26:58 ◼   ► that people will use the Apple Extended.

00:27:00 ◼   ► Eventually you're gonna need some kind of adapter

00:27:02 ◼   ► to use these things with like,

00:27:03 ◼   ► especially since they're Bluetooth, right?

00:27:05 ◼   ► It's not gonna have to be some kind of like

00:27:06 ◼   ► software adapter or Bluetooth dongle once, you know,

00:27:09 ◼   ► the new version of Bluetooth comes out.

00:27:10 ◼   ► - Not only are they Bluetooth, they're lightning.

00:27:13 ◼   ► And this is where like,

00:27:15 ◼   ► if they're ever gonna kill off this mouse,

00:27:18 ◼   ► maybe it'll be during the USB-C transition.

00:27:20 ◼   ► Like that's, that I think like I'm afraid

00:27:22 ◼   ► because when they go to USB-C,

00:27:25 ◼   ► they are presumably going to,

00:27:26 ◼   ► at some point during that transition, update this mouse.

00:27:30 ◼   ► Now that being said,

00:27:31 ◼   ► I think it's probably gonna be one of the last things

00:27:33 ◼   ► they update.

00:27:34 ◼   ► I mean, they might never update it,

00:27:35 ◼   ► because I don't think the EU's gonna mandate that.

00:27:37 ◼   ► We'll get to that in a little bit.

00:27:38 ◼   ► But also, I can imagine them not wanting to really do much

00:27:43 ◼   ► to make this change, and possibly doing it

00:27:46 ◼   ► in the most half-assed way possible,

00:27:49 ◼   ► which would basically just be like,

00:27:50 ◼   ► just keep the entire existing design,

00:27:53 ◼   ► and just make the port USB-C, instead of like--

00:27:56 ◼   ► - I think they got Qi charging.

00:27:58 ◼   ► The mouse is definitely something

00:27:59 ◼   ► where you can do Qi charging,

00:28:00 ◼   ► and it makes way more sense to have a charging thing

00:28:02 ◼   ► on the bottom when it's Qi charging

00:28:03 ◼   ► than it does to have a thing on the bottom

00:28:05 ◼   ► when it's USB-C or lightning.

00:28:06 ◼   ► - But then there's no pairing story.

00:28:07 ◼   ► 'Cause it also pair, you pair it with, by using the cable,

00:28:10 ◼   ► although I guess, I think there is like a thing

00:28:11 ◼   ► where you can like hold it down

00:28:12 ◼   ► and blink it into Bluetooth mode or whatever.

00:28:14 ◼   ► Like I think that there's probably

00:28:15 ◼   ► some kind of override for that.

00:28:16 ◼   ► But anyway, yeah.

00:28:18 ◼   ► I don't expect they're gonna be touching this

00:28:20 ◼   ► more than they have to.

00:28:21 ◼   ► But if they do, it is the wonderful combination

00:28:25 ◼   ► of being both extremely common and widely hated.

00:28:29 ◼   ► So there's gonna be a ton of them for sale forever

00:28:31 ◼   ► on eBay, totally unopened, so no problem there.

00:28:34 ◼   ► - I've got a bunch still in their original boxes

00:28:36 ◼   ► up in my attic, 'cause I never even take them out.

00:28:38 ◼   ► - Exactly, yeah.

00:28:39 ◼   ► There's so many people like you who buy desktop Macs

00:28:42 ◼   ► that come with these who don't ever use them,

00:28:45 ◼   ► 'cause everyone except me hates them.

00:28:47 ◼   ► So don't worry, I got a huge supply.

00:28:51 ◼   ► - I mean, the other thing I have going for you

00:28:52 ◼   ► is that Apple doesn't pay much attention

00:28:55 ◼   ► to the desktop Macs.

00:28:57 ◼   ► witness our continued wait for the Mac Pro.

00:28:59 ◼   ► So they're not going to redesign the mouse

00:29:02 ◼   ► as often as they did in the past

00:29:03 ◼   ► because it used to be much more important

00:29:04 ◼   ► to their product line.

00:29:06 ◼   ► But now that they've gotten basically all laptop

00:29:08 ◼   ► and some of their desktop computers

00:29:10 ◼   ► don't even come with the mouse like the Mac mini,

00:29:12 ◼   ► it's pretty low down the list.

00:29:14 ◼   ► But I do think it will make a USB-C transition

00:29:15 ◼   ► or a Qi transition because once they go all USB-C,

00:29:19 ◼   ► they're just gonna start knocking out

00:29:20 ◼   ► the products one by one.

00:29:21 ◼   ► Eventually, as lightning phases out,

00:29:24 ◼   ► it will eventually be as hard to find as a 30-pin connector

00:29:27 ◼   ► and so they're not gonna wanna keep selling a product

00:29:29 ◼   ► with that in it.

00:29:30 ◼   ► - I think I might, like, assuming that at some point

00:29:33 ◼   ► in the future I can't use this mouse anymore

00:29:37 ◼   ► and there's no replacement that I like,

00:29:39 ◼   ► which those are two pretty big assumptions,

00:29:41 ◼   ► but assuming that happens, I might just go to Trackpad.

00:29:45 ◼   ► Like, 'cause I love having the, like,

00:29:47 ◼   ► the direct manipulation scrolling on the mouse so much.

00:29:52 ◼   ► I would imagine I would rather just go directly

00:29:54 ◼   ► to double Trackpad, like, 'cause I already have Trackpad

00:29:56 ◼   ► the left and I could just get a second one, it'd be more symmetric, but I miss all my

00:30:02 ◼   ► Teflon mousepads.

00:30:04 ◼   ► Steven Hackett predictably has a good post that shows all the mice that I was just talking

00:30:08 ◼   ► about, the original one, the one for the Apple 2C and the Lisa, which are kind of gross,

00:30:14 ◼   ► then there's the first ADB mouse and then there's the Apple desktop mouse 2, which I

00:30:18 ◼   ► incorrectly said was the first Apple desktop mouse, but the other one was ADB before that.

00:30:23 ◼   ► There's a cool black one that came with the Apple,

00:30:25 ◼   ► no the Apple, the Macintosh television.

00:30:28 ◼   ► Man, I would love to get one of those black mice.

00:30:30 ◼   ► Then there's the Puck, the Apology Mouse,

00:30:32 ◼   ► the Stupid Mighty Mouse, and the Sushi Mouse.

00:30:35 ◼   ► So I think there might have been another one

00:30:36 ◼   ► in between there, but we'll put that link in the show notes.

00:30:38 ◼   ► It's an excellent page with some good photos.

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00:31:39 ◼   ► And their client app that runs on my Macs.

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00:32:00 ◼   ► that if your only backup is either nothing,

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00:32:36 ◼   ► Thank you so much to Backblaze

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00:32:40 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

00:32:43 ◼   ► - Let's talk about some stuff

00:32:45 ◼   ► that you've been up to recently, Mr. Syracuse.

00:32:48 ◼   ► Tell me about your app updates.

00:32:50 ◼   ► - Yeah, I didn't think I was gonna do this this year,

00:32:51 ◼   ► but I just, you know, the timing more or less worked out.

00:32:55 ◼   ► I had mentioned on the last show,

00:32:57 ◼   ► we were talking about like what we do

00:32:58 ◼   ► with the version control or whatever,

00:32:59 ◼   ► that I was adding a major feature to my app

00:33:01 ◼   ► and the branch I made for that feature

00:33:03 ◼   ► kind of morphed into the 2.0 branch

00:33:05 ◼   ► because I just kept adding stuff.

00:33:07 ◼   ► And so I was working on version two

00:33:09 ◼   ► of my little app switcher thing, Switch Glass,

00:33:11 ◼   ► and version two was kind of more or less ready

00:33:14 ◼   ► around the time of the Ventura launch.

00:33:16 ◼   ► In fact, I had to change a bunch of code in it

00:33:18 ◼   ► to deal with venture, which I might talk about it.

00:33:20 ◼   ► And well, I'll talk about it now briefly, I guess.

00:33:23 ◼   ► Anyway, the big feature that I added

00:33:25 ◼   ► was the number one requested feature was people wanted

00:33:27 ◼   ► to be able to reorder stuff in the app switcher.

00:33:31 ◼   ► They already had a bunch of different sort orders.

00:33:33 ◼   ► You could sort alphabetically in reverse and by launch order.

00:33:35 ◼   ► But they said, what if I just wanted to say,

00:33:37 ◼   ► I want Finder to be at the top.

00:33:38 ◼   ► I want this to be on the bottom, whatever.

00:33:40 ◼   ► So I added that feature.

00:33:42 ◼   ► Adding that feature, as I alluded to on past episodes

00:33:44 ◼   ► when we talked about our dev efforts required me to bump the minimum OS version to Monterey,

00:33:49 ◼   ► Mac OS 12 Monterey, because that app switch review is SwiftUI and the features for drag

00:33:55 ◼   ► and drop that I needed from SwiftUI only run on Monterey or later.

00:33:59 ◼   ► So it was a big bump in minimum system version, but honestly not that many people use my app

00:34:03 ◼   ► anyway, so whatever.

00:34:04 ◼   ► Who cares?

00:34:05 ◼   ► I wish I could have kept it lower, but I couldn't have and still actually had a reasonable drag

00:34:11 ◼   ► and drop interface.

00:34:12 ◼   ► And there's so many SwiftUI bugs in older OSs anyway,

00:34:14 ◼   ► I'm glad to be on something a little bit newer.

00:34:16 ◼   ► So I kind of did it, pulled an app,

00:34:19 ◼   ► and I was like, you know what,

00:34:20 ◼   ► Ventura's coming out soon, and if I just kind of say,

00:34:24 ◼   ► this is my underscore, no new features,

00:34:26 ◼   ► what is his little sign that he puts up?

00:34:28 ◼   ► No, Mark?

00:34:29 ◼   ► - I think it's no new features.

00:34:31 ◼   ► - I know it has a boat, because it represents shipping.

00:34:33 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's just like, this is the line,

00:34:35 ◼   ► I'm not doing any more features,

00:34:36 ◼   ► I'm just doing debugging from this point on.

00:34:39 ◼   ► Even though I had more features in the queue,

00:34:40 ◼   ► I said, this is it, let me just cut it off here.

00:34:43 ◼   ► I sent myself a pull request, Casey.

00:34:45 ◼   ► Nice.

00:34:46 ◼   ► It sounds like something you should do alone.

00:34:48 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:34:49 ◼   ► And push it out to the store.

00:34:50 ◼   ► And I didn't think App Review was going to get to it in time.

00:34:52 ◼   ► But lo and behold, on Ventura launch day,

00:34:54 ◼   ► both of my applications were ready with new versions.

00:34:57 ◼   ► Front and center, the only thing I changed in it

00:34:59 ◼   ► was a thing related to login items, which is--

00:35:02 ◼   ► I'll give a little summary here, but it turns out

00:35:04 ◼   ► to be a thing I'll talk about on another show.

00:35:05 ◼   ► But anyway, Ventura has a new API

00:35:07 ◼   ► for making applications register themselves

00:35:10 ◼   ► to launch on login.

00:35:11 ◼   ► There's been a surprisingly sorted history

00:35:14 ◼   ► of how apps do that on the Mac.

00:35:17 ◼   ► You would think it's such a simple feature,

00:35:18 ◼   ► it's just that one checkbox in the bottom

00:35:19 ◼   ► of a bunch of apps you use to say,

00:35:20 ◼   ► hey, do you want me to launch this app on login?

00:35:22 ◼   ► And you check it and you think that's all there is to it.

00:35:24 ◼   ► The way is they've done that, none of them are good.

00:35:26 ◼   ► There's a new way in Ventura,

00:35:27 ◼   ► which is better than the past ones,

00:35:30 ◼   ► but is buggy and has a bunch of caveats.

00:35:32 ◼   ► Anyway, I put a bunch of stuff in my FAQ about it

00:35:34 ◼   ► if you care, but.

00:35:35 ◼   ► - Oh, don't worry, because the second anybody updates

00:35:38 ◼   ► to Ventura, you will get, remember like,

00:35:41 ◼   ► I forget which version it was,

00:35:42 ◼   ► a couple of Mac OS versions ago when you had to like,

00:35:45 ◼   ► approve permissions for a whole bunch of new things.

00:35:47 ◼   ► The first launch experience of running that version

00:35:50 ◼   ► was just a wall of notifications from all your apps

00:35:53 ◼   ► that all of a sudden needed a new permission

00:35:55 ◼   ► that didn't exist before.

00:35:56 ◼   ► That's what it is for Ventura with these launch things.

00:35:58 ◼   ► Like the first time I launched, I have it on my laptop,

00:36:01 ◼   ► the very first time it launched with the final version,

00:36:04 ◼   ► the entire right side of the screen was just filled

00:36:07 ◼   ► with like 14 of these notifications

00:36:10 ◼   ► to approve these background items.

00:36:12 ◼   ► And it was all stuff I knew about

00:36:13 ◼   ► except for like one weird thing left over

00:36:15 ◼   ► by some driver installed forever ago.

00:36:17 ◼   ► But it was like, you know, shell scripts I have to run,

00:36:19 ◼   ► there's Backblaze, Dropbox, you know, all the stuff,

00:36:22 ◼   ► or not Dropbox, but Maestro, my Dropbox client,

00:36:25 ◼   ► like all the stuff that you want to run and expect to run,

00:36:29 ◼   ► but it was like, yeah, you have to basically like

00:36:31 ◼   ► be re-notified about everything.

00:36:34 ◼   ► The good thing is that the default seems to be

00:36:36 ◼   ► If it was running before, let it keep running.

00:36:39 ◼   ► So you don't have to actually do anything

00:36:41 ◼   ► besides maybe review them if there's

00:36:43 ◼   ► any you want to turn off and turn them off.

00:36:45 ◼   ► And it is nice that there is this new method to do that.

00:36:48 ◼   ► So I think it's a good feature overall, because before, there

00:36:51 ◼   ► were so many ways that things could be starting at startup

00:36:54 ◼   ► or behind the scenes that were not apparent to the user

00:36:58 ◼   ► and were very difficult for the user to ever remove.

00:37:01 ◼   ► Yeah, the problem with this briefly with respect to my app

00:37:04 ◼   ► is both of my apps have the option to launch on login

00:37:07 ◼   ► because they're the type of apps you run all the time.

00:37:08 ◼   ► Front and center changes your window layer

00:37:10 ◼   ► and you probably want that running all the time

00:37:11 ◼   ► if you can use it at all.

00:37:12 ◼   ► And switch glasses and app switcher,

00:37:13 ◼   ► you probably want that running all the time

00:37:14 ◼   ► just like the dock is running all the time.

00:37:15 ◼   ► So having them both launch on login makes tons of sense.

00:37:18 ◼   ► That's all they do.

00:37:19 ◼   ► They launch on login.

00:37:20 ◼   ► They're just regular apps

00:37:21 ◼   ► and instead of you having to double click them

00:37:22 ◼   ► or launch them from the dock or whatever,

00:37:24 ◼   ► you can get them to launch themselves.

00:37:25 ◼   ► That's it.

00:37:26 ◼   ► But because there is a new API to do that in Ventura,

00:37:30 ◼   ► There was a series of old APIs on pre-Ventura systems, right?

00:37:34 ◼   ► So I used the new API on Ventura,

00:37:36 ◼   ► but because my apps run on older OSes,

00:37:39 ◼   ► even, you know, even Switch class

00:37:40 ◼   ► that I had to bump up to Monterey, it runs on Monterey,

00:37:42 ◼   ► and the Ventura APIs don't exist on Monterey.

00:37:44 ◼   ► So my app has to support the APIs that exist on Monterey,

00:37:49 ◼   ► right?

00:37:49 ◼   ► If your app uses the Monterey or earlier APIs on Ventura,

00:37:54 ◼   ► when you use the new API to say,

00:37:56 ◼   ► hey, please launch me on login,

00:37:58 ◼   ► Ventura files your app under a section in system settings

00:38:02 ◼   ► that says, these apps run in the background.

00:38:05 ◼   ► My apps don't run in the background.

00:38:07 ◼   ► They have no way to run in the background.

00:38:09 ◼   ► There's nothing in them that runs in the background.

00:38:10 ◼   ► They don't have any kind of demons.

00:38:11 ◼   ► They only run in the foreground.

00:38:13 ◼   ► Like they're just apps.

00:38:13 ◼   ► You just double click them and they run.

00:38:15 ◼   ► They can't do anything when they're not running, right?

00:38:18 ◼   ► But because it uses an older API that it has to,

00:38:21 ◼   ► it doesn't use it, includes code for an older API,

00:38:23 ◼   ► because it does that on Ventura,

00:38:26 ◼   ► it's filed under this app runs in the background.

00:38:28 ◼   ► And so now I have to brace myself

00:38:30 ◼   ► for people sending me emails saying,

00:38:32 ◼   ► "Why does your app run in the background?

00:38:34 ◼   ► What kind of sneaky stuff is it doing?"

00:38:35 ◼   ► I have to say, "It doesn't run in the background."

00:38:37 ◼   ► They're gonna say, "But the OS says it runs in the background.

00:38:39 ◼   ► Look, let me send you a screenshot of system settings.

00:38:40 ◼   ► Here's your app listed in the apps that run in the background.

00:38:43 ◼   ► They may perform tasks when they're not open," right?

00:38:45 ◼   ► Like, I assure you, my app cannot do anything

00:38:48 ◼   ► when it is not running.

00:38:49 ◼   ► I installed no launch DEP list.

00:38:51 ◼   ► There's no daemon. There's no background server.

00:38:53 ◼   ► I am not, you know, run activity monitor, run PS,

00:38:57 ◼   ► satisfy yourself, but then why is it showing?

00:38:59 ◼   ► Ugh, so I filed the feedback on this,

00:39:02 ◼   ► and it's kind of frustrating,

00:39:03 ◼   ► and that gets to your wall of notifications.

00:39:05 ◼   ► Half of those notifications are going to say,

00:39:08 ◼   ► so-and-so application wants to run in the background.

00:39:10 ◼   ► Sometimes you will get a notification

00:39:12 ◼   ► that says something wants to run in the background

00:39:13 ◼   ► when all it wants to do is launch on login,

00:39:15 ◼   ► but sometimes it really does want to run something

00:39:17 ◼   ► in the background, so when you go into system settings

00:39:19 ◼   ► in, you know, whatever, general login items,

00:39:21 ◼   ► and you see the allow in background list or whatever,

00:39:25 ◼   ► you can't tell by looking at that list

00:39:27 ◼   ► which one of these things actually runs in the background

00:39:30 ◼   ► versus which one of these things is just an application

00:39:32 ◼   ► that supports a preventer OS

00:39:33 ◼   ► that just wants to launch itself on login.

00:39:35 ◼   ► There's no way to tell.

00:39:37 ◼   ► Most of them probably do run in the background,

00:39:38 ◼   ► but only if you have experience to know, like,

00:39:41 ◼   ► "Oh, I understand this is an updater daemon

00:39:42 ◼   ► that really does run in the background,"

00:39:44 ◼   ► or, "This thing does make a launch agent with launch D."

00:39:48 ◼   ► You're not going to end up by looking at this list.

00:39:50 ◼   ► So anyway, that's why I had to add a FAQ item

00:39:53 ◼   ► to both of my dinky little products that says,

00:39:55 ◼   ► hey, why is your app listed as running in the background?

00:39:58 ◼   ► Does it do anything in the background?

00:39:59 ◼   ► I have to say, no, it doesn't, I swear.

00:40:01 ◼   ► So that's frustrating.

00:40:02 ◼   ► And then the second frustrating thing is,

00:40:04 ◼   ► maybe this is only true for people running development

00:40:06 ◼   ► and test flight builds or whatever,

00:40:07 ◼   ► but the new API in Ventura,

00:40:08 ◼   ► when it gets added to launch on login,

00:40:11 ◼   ► it's very specific, as in this specific app

00:40:14 ◼   ► should launch on login, which I think is good.

00:40:16 ◼   ► But if you're doing development,

00:40:18 ◼   ► and like when you run Xcode

00:40:19 ◼   ► and it builds a version of your app

00:40:20 ◼   ► and whatever that folder is under hidden drive data?

00:40:23 ◼   ► Where does it put the temporary debug builds of your apps?

00:40:26 ◼   ► - Oh, God, it's somewhere very deep.

00:40:28 ◼   ► I never know.

00:40:31 ◼   ► I always have to debug print the path of the binary,

00:40:34 ◼   ► drag it out of the target area.

00:40:36 ◼   ► - Command click it on the dock, right?

00:40:38 ◼   ► - What?

00:40:38 ◼   ► - Oh, yeah, I guess.

00:40:39 ◼   ► - Oh, well, not for the simulator.

00:40:41 ◼   ► - Yeah, you're not using Mac apps, sorry.

00:40:43 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:40:44 ◼   ► - It's Mac apps, you command click on the dock.

00:40:45 ◼   ► But yeah, when you're running Xcode,

00:40:47 ◼   ► it builds a copy of your app

00:40:48 ◼   ► and it puts it somewhere, but it's not like,

00:40:50 ◼   ► even if you're making a Mac app,

00:40:52 ◼   ► it doesn't put it in your applications folder.

00:40:53 ◼   ► So when you run the dev build

00:40:55 ◼   ► and you call the venture API to launch this on login,

00:40:57 ◼   ► I think what it's doing is saying,

00:40:58 ◼   ► okay, I'll launch the application located at library,

00:41:02 ◼   ► developer, Xcode, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:41:03 ◼   ► I'll launch that at login, right?

00:41:05 ◼   ► But you're the version of the application

00:41:07 ◼   ► sitting in your application folder

00:41:09 ◼   ► is also registered as launch and login.

00:41:10 ◼   ► So I got into a situation where I had like three copies

00:41:13 ◼   ► of switch class listed in my open at login list.

00:41:15 ◼   ► And by the way, the whole thing about allow in background,

00:41:17 ◼   ► your app will also show up in the open it login thing.

00:41:20 ◼   ► So it does correctly show up there,

00:41:22 ◼   ► but it also appears in the allow in the background list.

00:41:24 ◼   ► So anyway, I've been in situations

00:41:26 ◼   ► where there are multiple copies of my apps

00:41:29 ◼   ► listed in open it login.

00:41:31 ◼   ► And I think it's because there literally are

00:41:32 ◼   ► multiple copies of maps running around on the disc.

00:41:35 ◼   ► And unlike previous versions of macOS,

00:41:36 ◼   ► this one tracks all of them

00:41:38 ◼   ► and will send you a notification every time you do

00:41:40 ◼   ► a new build and you launch it, it's like,

00:41:41 ◼   ► oh, just so you know, this app that we've never seen before,

00:41:43 ◼   ► they just got built and run,

00:41:45 ◼   ► it just registers itself to launch on login.

00:41:47 ◼   ► and we wanted you to know about it with a notification.

00:41:49 ◼   ► - Fun, that's super crappy.

00:41:51 ◼   ► - So anyway, my apps are updated.

00:41:53 ◼   ► Twitch class two is a free update

00:41:54 ◼   ► for the five people who use it.

00:41:56 ◼   ► I'm still having fun developing it.

00:41:58 ◼   ► In fact, I just did a test flight build

00:41:59 ◼   ► with a bunch of fun new features

00:42:01 ◼   ► and people are finding fun new bugs.

00:42:02 ◼   ► I'm enjoying test flight.

00:42:04 ◼   ► It's way better than trying to send people betas.

00:42:05 ◼   ► Test flight on the Mac, when it's working

00:42:07 ◼   ► and when App Store Connect is working correctly

00:42:09 ◼   ► is a real godsend.

00:42:11 ◼   ► So I made a petition for new testers

00:42:14 ◼   ► in my blog post about it.

00:42:16 ◼   ► We'll put a link in the show notes to that post

00:42:18 ◼   ► so you can read it.

00:42:19 ◼   ► It's only a couple paragraphs.

00:42:19 ◼   ► If you want to be a tester, you can send me an email.

00:42:22 ◼   ► And I'll let you test it.

00:42:22 ◼   ► And you can find fun bugs, and I'll fix them.

00:42:24 ◼   ► That's the plan anyway.

00:42:26 ◼   ► Oh, one more thing related to the blog post.

00:42:29 ◼   ► I put a mailto link in the thing that

00:42:31 ◼   ► says, if you want to become a tester, let me know.

00:42:34 ◼   ► And the words "let me know" are a link,

00:42:35 ◼   ► and they're a mailto link.

00:42:37 ◼   ► I said, you know what?

00:42:38 ◼   ► Let me put a subject line on the mailto link.

00:42:40 ◼   ► I know there's a sort of convention for doing that.

00:42:42 ◼   ► I'm not sure if it's a real standard,

00:42:44 ◼   ► but I've seen it done many different times.

00:42:45 ◼   ► you know, whatever. So, you know, the URL of that link is mail, M-A-I-L-T-O colon, and then my email

00:42:51 ◼   ► address, and then question mark, subject equals, and then you type the subject line, right? And

00:42:56 ◼   ► the subject line is "Switch glass test flight membership" with spaces between the words, right?

00:43:01 ◼   ► When you put spaces in the, in the, you know, the href field of a link, you're supposed to URL

00:43:08 ◼   ► encode them, you know, with percent 20, or I think you can do pluses, that might only be for the

00:43:13 ◼   ► the address bar, but anyway, percent 20, right?

00:43:15 ◼   ► That's the hexadecimal, you know,

00:43:17 ◼   ► the way you put hexadecimal codes or ASCII code points,

00:43:20 ◼   ► you know, that's a space, right?

00:43:22 ◼   ► - Or you can use a plus and break half the clients out there.

00:43:25 ◼   ► - Right, so here's the thing.

00:43:26 ◼   ► I put percent 20s 'cause it's the right thing to do

00:43:28 ◼   ► and I make a valid markup when I can, right?

00:43:31 ◼   ► I immediately found out that every single person

00:43:34 ◼   ► who clicked that link was somehow using some kind

00:43:37 ◼   ► of browser or system that has no idea what that is

00:43:39 ◼   ► and I got a bunch of email with the subject line,

00:43:41 ◼   ► Switch glass percent 20, you know,

00:43:43 ◼   ► test flight percent 20, membership percent 20.

00:43:45 ◼   ► All right, so and like literally not a single one

00:43:49 ◼   ► was correct, I'm like, okay, I tested it myself,

00:43:51 ◼   ► by the way, Chrome on the Mac and Safari works fine.

00:43:54 ◼   ► You get spaces, right?

00:43:55 ◼   ► But whatever, maybe it's the email client.

00:43:58 ◼   ► I don't know where the problem lies,

00:43:59 ◼   ► but I was getting emails with percent 20s in subject line.

00:44:01 ◼   ► I changed it to pluses.

00:44:03 ◼   ► I just got emails with pluses in it.

00:44:05 ◼   ► Like, literally not a single email from any mail,

00:44:10 ◼   ► I think it's probably the mail client that's screwing it up,

00:44:12 ◼   ► because I think Safari and Chrome probably send it

00:44:14 ◼   ► correctly, but the mail clients don't know that it's-- anyway.

00:44:17 ◼   ► I had to change it to spaces, which is not valid,

00:44:20 ◼   ► but apparently it's the only way to get spaces.

00:44:21 ◼   ► So if you look at the markup, it says,

00:44:23 ◼   ► A, HREF, blah, blah, blah, question mark, subject,

00:44:26 ◼   ► equals, switch glass, space, test flight, space, membership.

00:44:30 ◼   ► And that works.

00:44:32 ◼   ► Now I'm getting really bad subject lines.

00:44:33 ◼   ► It's invalid.

00:44:34 ◼   ► It's invalid HTML.

00:44:35 ◼   ► You can put spaces--

00:44:36 ◼   ► just the web.

00:44:38 ◼   ► You just can't escape it.

00:44:39 ◼   ► It just amazes me that this is not a new convention.

00:44:41 ◼   ► The subject line in mail to links, what is that,

00:44:43 ◼   ► from the 90s?

00:44:44 ◼   ► And still somehow there's a broken link in this chain.

00:44:47 ◼   ► Again, I think it's the mail clients.

00:44:48 ◼   ► I think it's the mail clients are getting a URL

00:44:50 ◼   ► and they are not correctly parsing the query string

00:44:52 ◼   ► out of the URL part of it.

00:44:53 ◼   ► They're not, obviously not decoding the percent 20s

00:44:57 ◼   ► and not decoding the pluses.

00:44:59 ◼   ► Sad, sad state of affairs.

00:45:00 ◼   ► - This is, so I mean, I'll be the first one to admit

00:45:03 ◼   ► when email is bad because that's much of the time,

00:45:06 ◼   ► but I've never had this problem.

00:45:09 ◼   ► I use that convention frequently.

00:45:11 ◼   ► We even have it in our member panel, if you did that,

00:45:14 ◼   ► dot fm slash join.

00:45:16 ◼   ► If you go to your member panel at slash member,

00:45:19 ◼   ► at the bottom there's a link to contact us.

00:45:21 ◼   ► And it's a mailto link that includes not only spaces,

00:45:25 ◼   ► but escaped colons and parentheses, all percent encoded.

00:45:30 ◼   ► And I get a email from that maybe a couple times a week,

00:45:34 ◼   ► maybe three or four times a week.

00:45:36 ◼   ► None of them have ever had wrongly escaped things in them.

00:45:40 ◼   ► It's never happened.

00:45:41 ◼   ► - Maybe it's just small sample size,

00:45:43 ◼   ► 'cause I think only 10 people email me,

00:45:44 ◼   ► but every single one of the 10 had percent store pluses.

00:45:47 ◼   ► I was shocked, I was shocked.

00:45:49 ◼   ► How could, in this day and age, how could something,

00:45:51 ◼   ► but there you have it.

00:45:52 ◼   ► So yeah, that's why the web is full of invalid things,

00:45:55 ◼   ► 'cause people learn through trial and error

00:45:57 ◼   ► that if you want it to quote unquote work everywhere,

00:45:59 ◼   ► you have to use invalid markup in some cases.

00:46:02 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

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00:47:51 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

00:47:55 ◼   ► - All right, I got a new treat today.

00:47:57 ◼   ► - Ooh.

00:47:58 ◼   ► I went to Apple, the local Apple store in Short Pump,

00:48:03 ◼   ► and I got myself a picked up, yes,

00:48:06 ◼   ► everyone thinks it's so funny.

00:48:08 ◼   ► - That also sounds like something you do when you're alone.

00:48:10 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:48:12 ◼   ► - I've been married a long time, Marco.

00:48:13 ◼   ► Anyway, so I went to the store,

00:48:16 ◼   ► and I got complimented on my M2 shirt,

00:48:18 ◼   ► which just happened to be the top shirt in my pile

00:48:20 ◼   ► when I got dressed this morning, or excuse me, not M2,

00:48:23 ◼   ► I didn't get a pre-release M2 shirt, M1.

00:48:25 ◼   ► - I was gonna say, you don't have an early copy

00:48:26 ◼   ► of the M2 shirt.

00:48:27 ◼   ► - No, no, no, no, my apologies.

00:48:28 ◼   ► My M1 shirt, somebody commented on it and said, "Nice shirt,"

00:48:31 ◼   ► and I was very appreciative of that,

00:48:33 ◼   ► and the person helping me was very kind,

00:48:36 ◼   ► and they smiled and nodded very effectively

00:48:39 ◼   ► when I told them about my podcast,

00:48:41 ◼   ► which I'm sure they were so excited to hear about,

00:48:43 ◼   ► but they did a very good job of making me feel

00:48:45 ◼   ► like they actually gave a crap.

00:48:47 ◼   ► So anyway.

00:48:48 ◼   ► - You should listen to my podcast.

00:48:49 ◼   ► It's about computers.

00:48:50 ◼   ► You would like it.

00:48:50 ◼   ► - I was totally that guy.

00:48:52 ◼   ► I was wearing my own shirt.

00:48:53 ◼   ► It was so bad.

00:48:54 ◼   ► It was terrible.

00:48:55 ◼   ► - Oh, no.

00:48:56 ◼   ► wear the shirts out in public just in case I don't want to be that guy.

00:49:01 ◼   ► No, I don't care. I have no shame. I'm 40 now, man. I mean, so are you, but I'm 40 now. I don't care.

00:49:06 ◼   ► But anyway, so I picked up my iPad Pro. I gotta say, in general, if you live in a place that is not

00:49:14 ◼   ► like Boston or New York City and you have one of the slower Apple stores like the one in

00:49:21 ◼   ► short pump. It is pretty delightful going in and picking up your devices because you get them first

00:49:27 ◼   ► thing in the morning. You don't have to stock the UPS truck. It's wonderful and there's almost never

00:49:34 ◼   ► any big line like even on iPhone day because if you recall I did pick up for the first time in years

00:49:38 ◼   ► for these iPhones a couple of what last month and even then I waited like I don't know 10 minutes

00:49:44 ◼   ► maybe maybe and I was in and out and five after I tried to get upsell upsold on AppleCare and

00:49:50 ◼   ► screen protectors and all the other very sundry things Apple wants to make money off of, but

00:49:53 ◼   ► that's neither here nor there.

00:49:54 ◼   ► For whatever it's worth, by the way, I'm sorry to interrupt here, I've had great experiences

00:50:00 ◼   ► with the Long Island Apple stores. Like, you know, the Westchester ones are pretty decent.

00:50:04 ◼   ► The ones in the city are, you know, very crowded, very dense, you know, you have to wait on

00:50:08 ◼   ► lines, it's a little chaotic. The ones in Westchester are much nicer. The ones on Long

00:50:13 ◼   ► Island have been, honestly, even better. Like, I'm really surprised. And I think it's mostly

00:50:18 ◼   ► because like not a lot of there's not a lot of nerds on Long Island like that I

00:50:24 ◼   ► don't know where they are I have I haven't located them what are you

00:50:26 ◼   ► talking about oh John's upset John's upset not a lot of nerds on Long Island

00:50:31 ◼   ► nerd said where do they where do they keep them where they're all they're all

00:50:36 ◼   ► too busy doing extra credit activity so they look good in their college

00:50:39 ◼   ► applications well they're not in the Apple Store and so therefore they're

00:50:42 ◼   ► never crowded but they're but they're probably working at the Apple Store well

00:50:45 ◼   ► - Well, yeah, that's true, because the staff has been great.

00:50:48 ◼   ► I'm actually, there's two stores I go to

00:50:50 ◼   ► that are close to me on Long Island here,

00:50:52 ◼   ► and they're both, so far, fantastic.

00:50:55 ◼   ► And because there are no more nerds on Long Island

00:50:58 ◼   ► who don't already work at the Apple stores,

00:51:00 ◼   ► there's almost no one ever in there.

00:51:02 ◼   ► And so you get, there's tons of staff,

00:51:04 ◼   ► very few customers, instant service.

00:51:06 ◼   ► Like, it's been fantastic.

00:51:08 ◼   ► - And also you're going there when people are at work.

00:51:10 ◼   ► It occurs to me that I have no idea

00:51:12 ◼   ► where any Apple stores are on Long Island,

00:51:13 ◼   ► because I didn't live there when Apple stores became a thing.

00:51:15 ◼   ► So what stores are you going to?

00:51:17 ◼   ► - My primary one is the Walt Whitman Mall one.

00:51:19 ◼   ► - I was gonna say, like, Walt Whitman would be my first guess

00:51:22 ◼   ► where one would be, although I, I mean,

00:51:24 ◼   ► I don't really relish going there,

00:51:25 ◼   ► but I haven't been in ages.

00:51:26 ◼   ► But yeah, that's, you know,

00:51:28 ◼   ► ones in malls have the advantage that malls are dying,

00:51:31 ◼   ► so there's probably not a lot there except for, like,

00:51:33 ◼   ► you know, the Orange Julius in the Apple Store.

00:51:36 ◼   ► - Oh, Orange Julius, yes!

00:51:39 ◼   ► Oh, I love being Orange Julius.

00:51:41 ◼   ► - Are they still in business?

00:51:41 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:51:42 ◼   ► It's weird walking through malls these days though,

00:51:44 ◼   ► 'cause you walk past, there's, you know,

00:51:46 ◼   ► most of the stores, well, there's different kinds of malls.

00:51:51 ◼   ► - Spirit Halloween is in most of the places, right?

00:51:53 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:51:54 ◼   ► - What?

00:51:55 ◼   ► - Because they always go and swoop in the defunct stores

00:51:58 ◼   ► and take over around Halloween time.

00:51:59 ◼   ► - Yeah, you don't know about Spirit Halloween?

00:52:01 ◼   ► - Oh, yeah, there's cheap seasonal stores.

00:52:04 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:52:05 ◼   ► - Yeah, but anyway, no, there's, let me see,

00:52:07 ◼   ► where's the other one that I went to?

00:52:09 ◼   ► The other one was in Smith Haven, yeah, that's the other one.

00:52:12 ◼   ► That mall is not in as good a shape,

00:52:15 ◼   ► but Walt Whitman's in really good shape.

00:52:18 ◼   ► And it's all like, it's internet brands.

00:52:21 ◼   ► It's like Casper and Warby Parker.

00:52:24 ◼   ► Like it's all like the podcast ad brands that you hear.

00:52:28 ◼   ► They now have stores in upscale malls

00:52:31 ◼   ► and that's what's taking all the mall stuff now.

00:52:33 ◼   ► Anyway, it is weird though, walking through a mall

00:52:36 ◼   ► 'cause even the good malls are a shadow

00:52:40 ◼   ► of what they once were and are largely empty.

00:52:44 ◼   ► It's very strange.

00:52:46 ◼   ► - I brought my wedding ring at a jewelry store

00:52:47 ◼   ► in Smith Haven Mall.

00:52:49 ◼   ► - Aww.

00:52:49 ◼   ► - I used to ride my bike there.

00:52:51 ◼   ► - Wow.

00:52:53 ◼   ► - You were very close.

00:52:55 ◼   ► So yeah, so I picked up my iPad Pro.

00:52:57 ◼   ► I did not get any accessories because my hope, in theory,

00:52:59 ◼   ► was I could repurpose all the accessories

00:53:01 ◼   ► for my 2018 iPad Pro, which is going to be retired.

00:53:05 ◼   ► I had spoken briefly about, oh, maybe I'll just cancel this,

00:53:07 ◼   ► but because I'm a big liar,

00:53:11 ◼   ► I did not cancel this obviously.

00:53:13 ◼   ► But I did get it.

00:53:14 ◼   ► I have not had a lot of time to play with it,

00:53:17 ◼   ► but you know what, it's like a much better battery,

00:53:21 ◼   ► much faster, I guess,

00:53:24 ◼   ► much less scratch screen version of my 2018 iPad Pro.

00:53:29 ◼   ► I put it in the 2018, or no, I guess it was 2020,

00:53:33 ◼   ► Magic Keyboard case, and it fit no problem.

00:53:36 ◼   ► In fact, if I recall correctly,

00:53:37 ◼   ► when they came out with last year's iPad Pro,

00:53:41 ◼   ► they said, "Oh, it's not gonna fit

00:53:42 ◼   ► "in the 2020 edition case.

00:53:43 ◼   ► "It's not gonna fit right."

00:53:44 ◼   ► And then they came out a few days later, a week later,

00:53:46 ◼   ► and was like, "Well, it'll fit,

00:53:48 ◼   ► "but it's gonna be not 100% perfect.

00:53:51 ◼   ► "Maybe I just don't have the eye for it,

00:53:53 ◼   ► "but it seems like it fits perfectly," which is great.

00:53:56 ◼   ► So I'm using Magic Keyboard, which I love.

00:54:00 ◼   ► The pencil synced, no problem.

00:54:02 ◼   ► - Wait, what about the camera hole?

00:54:05 ◼   ► - Oh, or did the Magic Keyboard come out late enough

00:54:07 ◼   ► so that it had the larger camera plateau of the M1 iPad?

00:54:10 ◼   ► - Correct, well I don't think it was an M1 at the time,

00:54:12 ◼   ► but it was, the spirit of what you're saying is correct,

00:54:15 ◼   ► that it had the big square hole.

00:54:19 ◼   ► - Oh, the A12Z iPad, the one that added the LiDAR sensor,

00:54:23 ◼   ► right, that's what--

00:54:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think that's right. - Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah.

00:54:27 ◼   ► - So yeah, that fit, no problem, all good.

00:54:29 ◼   ► Pencil obviously works, no problem, all good.

00:54:31 ◼   ► And so I've dug out my old, what is it,

00:54:34 ◼   ► the keyboard, not folio, the thing

00:54:37 ◼   ► that's not a kickstandy one, not the new kickstandy one,

00:54:40 ◼   ► but like the--

00:54:40 ◼   ► - It's the Magic Folio keyboard.

00:54:42 ◼   ► - Oh, it is, okay, thank you.

00:54:43 ◼   ► - The Smart Keyboard Folio, that's the one I use.

00:54:45 ◼   ► - The Smart, yeah, the Smart Magic Folio Keyboard Folio.

00:54:48 ◼   ► - Yeah. - Oh, God, it's so bad.

00:54:49 ◼   ► Anyway, but yes, that thing, so I busted that back out.

00:54:52 ◼   ► - I like what Gruber clarified.

00:54:54 ◼   ► Magic means it has a trackpad, right?

00:54:56 ◼   ► So that clarifies one whole section of it.

00:55:00 ◼   ► - It's so clear, I don't know why it's not obvious.

00:55:02 ◼   ► - Right, yeah.

00:55:03 ◼   ► - Track pads are magic.

00:55:04 ◼   ► - Right, oh man.

00:55:05 ◼   ► You know, I was just thinking earlier

00:55:07 ◼   ► as I was washing dishes, 'cause that's when I do my thinking,

00:55:10 ◼   ► wouldn't it be amazing if Apple just had like

00:55:14 ◼   ► one iPad keyboard and one iPad cover

00:55:19 ◼   ► that you could use on all of their 11-ish-inch iPads?

00:55:24 ◼   ► And I instantly knew why they don't do that.

00:55:28 ◼   ► 'Cause even after all this time,

00:55:30 ◼   ► the iPad is still not designed for covers or keyboards

00:55:35 ◼   ► to attach to them very well.

00:55:38 ◼   ► If they were, they would have to make sacrifices

00:55:41 ◼   ► on the physical shape in some way.

00:55:43 ◼   ► Maybe having an attachment slot,

00:55:46 ◼   ► kinda like the way the Apple Watch straps

00:55:49 ◼   ► slide into a groove in the case.

00:55:51 ◼   ► If there was something like that,

00:55:54 ◼   ► or some way for things to physically attach securely

00:55:58 ◼   ► to an iPad without just magnetically sticking to the back?

00:56:01 ◼   ► - I mean the magnets are pretty good though.

00:56:03 ◼   ► I think they do, I like the magnets.

00:56:05 ◼   ► I think they do a good job with getting the cases.

00:56:07 ◼   ► I didn't think I would like them 'cause I used to have

00:56:08 ◼   ► like on my original 9.7 inch Pro.

00:56:10 ◼   ► Do you remember the cases that came,

00:56:11 ◼   ► the Apple cases for the 9.7 inch Pro?

00:56:13 ◼   ► They actually like wrapped around the edges

00:56:15 ◼   ► and hooked over the front.

00:56:16 ◼   ► Those were great, very secure.

00:56:18 ◼   ► I really loved that.

00:56:19 ◼   ► My son's got that iPad now,

00:56:20 ◼   ► although it's kind of fun, it's last legs.

00:56:22 ◼   ► But the flat ones, the sort of ice cream sandwich ones

00:56:25 ◼   ► that go on the flat ones now,

00:56:27 ◼   ► It doesn't look like it should work,

00:56:28 ◼   ► but they work pretty well.

00:56:30 ◼   ► I think where things start to fall apart

00:56:31 ◼   ► is the keyboard stuff,

00:56:32 ◼   ► 'cause I'm just talking about the flat cases or whatever,

00:56:34 ◼   ► but once you start putting in more heavyweight things

00:56:37 ◼   ► in there or trying to construct a little precarious laptop

00:56:40 ◼   ► out of it, that's where you need like the

00:56:43 ◼   ► apparently extremely expensive technology in the,

00:56:46 ◼   ► well, you should finish telling me the adjective things.

00:56:48 ◼   ► Magic means it has a track lab.

00:56:49 ◼   ► What does it mean when it costs 300 something dollars

00:56:51 ◼   ► and had like this weird armature inside it?

00:56:53 ◼   ► - Oh, that just means iPad keyboard.

00:56:55 ◼   ► - No, you know what I'm talking about?

00:56:56 ◼   ► It's Casey's one.

00:56:57 ◼   ► that holds the thing up.

00:56:58 ◼   ► Is there a word in the product name

00:56:59 ◼   ► that lets me know it's that one,

00:57:00 ◼   ► or is it just the price?

00:57:01 ◼   ► - No, the price tells you very clearly, yeah.

00:57:03 ◼   ► Yeah, no, it's just, and so, as far as I can tell,

00:57:06 ◼   ► is magic ever used with folio,

00:57:11 ◼   ► or are those mutually exclusive?

00:57:12 ◼   ► 'Cause I think folio means the old kind

00:57:15 ◼   ► where it's just like two flat things

00:57:17 ◼   ► that sandwich together, right?

00:57:19 ◼   ► And there's usually--

00:57:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, folio is actually a word that means something,

00:57:21 ◼   ► so I give them some leeway on that one,

00:57:23 ◼   ► like it makes some sense.

00:57:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, and there's no trackpad with Folio,

00:57:27 ◼   ► as far as I'm aware.

00:57:28 ◼   ► - Well, slow down so we can get this all wrong.

00:57:29 ◼   ► The Magic Keyboard Folio is a $250 thing--

00:57:32 ◼   ► - That has a trackpad, yeah.

00:57:33 ◼   ► - That has a trackpad that is for the iPad,

00:57:35 ◼   ► which by the way, I did play with in store very briefly.

00:57:38 ◼   ► It was good.

00:57:39 ◼   ► - Oh, smart is what's mutually exclusive from Magic.

00:57:42 ◼   ► All right, so it can either be smart or magic,

00:57:45 ◼   ► and smart means it does not have a trackpad.

00:57:49 ◼   ► Magic means it does and costs a bajillion dollars.

00:57:52 ◼   ► Not that the smart ones are particularly inexpensive,

00:57:54 ◼   ► they're just less insanely expensive.

00:57:57 ◼   ► - And that again makes no sense.

00:57:59 ◼   ► Because magic is not the opposite of smart

00:58:00 ◼   ► and neither one says anything about track pants.

00:58:02 ◼   ► - Yeah, I know.

00:58:03 ◼   ► But anyway, it is, I would love to someday get to a point

00:58:06 ◼   ► in Apple's iPad lineup, and obviously it's all jumbled up

00:58:08 ◼   ► right now and we discussed possibly why

00:58:10 ◼   ► with supply chain and whatever,

00:58:11 ◼   ► but I would love to get to a point in Apple's lineup

00:58:14 ◼   ► where every new iPad doesn't have its own

00:58:18 ◼   ► completely different and incompatible set of accessories.

00:58:21 ◼   ► 'Cause if they're gonna have this lineup

00:58:22 ◼   ► that has many different models in it.

00:58:25 ◼   ► Obviously, between the 11-ish inch size class

00:58:28 ◼   ► and the 12.9 inch, yeah, you gotta have

00:58:30 ◼   ► a different keyboard for that

00:58:32 ◼   ► because it's a very different size.

00:58:33 ◼   ► But there are so many iPads now in the 11-ish inch range

00:58:37 ◼   ► that are all almost the same size.

00:58:39 ◼   ► Like if they just made them all the same size

00:58:43 ◼   ► and made them all use the same frickin' pencil

00:58:45 ◼   ► and the same two or three keyboard options,

00:58:48 ◼   ► different price and complexity categories,

00:58:50 ◼   ► that would be so nice.

00:58:52 ◼   ► 'Cause as it is right now, it's so absurdly,

00:58:56 ◼   ► I mean, it's expensive for one,

00:58:58 ◼   ► but I don't think they would see that as a bad thing.

00:59:00 ◼   ► But it's also just incredibly wasteful.

00:59:02 ◼   ► Like there's all the, you know,

00:59:04 ◼   ► when I upgraded from my old A12X 2018 iPad

00:59:09 ◼   ► that Casey just updated away from,

00:59:10 ◼   ► to the M1 this past summer,

00:59:13 ◼   ► I had to get a new keyboard cover

00:59:14 ◼   ► because the old one didn't,

00:59:16 ◼   ► it wouldn't fit the camera plateau of the new one.

00:59:18 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, that's a bummer.

00:59:20 ◼   ► - It felt dumb.

00:59:21 ◼   ► Like why am I, like there goes 180 bucks or whatever

00:59:24 ◼   ► that I didn't have to spend,

00:59:25 ◼   ► and then what do I do with this keyboard?

00:59:27 ◼   ► Like I tried to give it away to family members

00:59:29 ◼   ► who still had the old iPad, they didn't need it.

00:59:31 ◼   ► I ended up, it's in a closet somewhere,

00:59:33 ◼   ► I've forgotten exactly where,

00:59:35 ◼   ► and you know, probably in two or three years

00:59:37 ◼   ► I'll find it and throw it away.

00:59:38 ◼   ► That's a waste, you know?

00:59:39 ◼   ► And there's so many situations like that

00:59:41 ◼   ► where like if they would stop changing the accessories

00:59:44 ◼   ► like every year for these iPads

00:59:45 ◼   ► that change a few millimeters here and there,

00:59:48 ◼   ► and you know, the camera bump gets a little bit bigger,

00:59:50 ◼   ► moves around, if they could design them in a more

00:59:53 ◼   ► holistic and forward looking way so that both the iPads

00:59:56 ◼   ► and the accessories, design them both together

00:59:58 ◼   ► to create a world where there's just like,

01:00:02 ◼   ► there's an iPad keyboard and there's an iPad keyboard

01:00:04 ◼   ► with a trackpad and those come in two sizes and that's it.

01:00:07 ◼   ► Like that would be amazing.

01:00:09 ◼   ► - Now those keyboards and covers that attach though

01:00:12 ◼   ► are in many respects wear items for iPads.

01:00:15 ◼   ► Like that they're not, they are the outside of the thing.

01:00:18 ◼   ► They are going to wear down.

01:00:20 ◼   ► They are going to degrade just like the brakes on your car

01:00:23 ◼   ► and the oil in your engine, or not your engine, Marco,

01:00:25 ◼   ► well, one of your engines, anyway.

01:00:27 ◼   ► And so I think their useful lifetime is not great,

01:00:30 ◼   ► which really argues on not being $300 items,

01:00:34 ◼   ► because by the time you're done with that iPad,

01:00:36 ◼   ► if it has a nice long life,

01:00:37 ◼   ► those accessories, if you actually use them,

01:00:39 ◼   ► are pretty beat up.

01:00:40 ◼   ► I think what they've currently done,

01:00:42 ◼   ► like with the Pro lines, the flat-sided iPad Pros,

01:00:46 ◼   ► they've had some amount of accessory continuity,

01:00:49 ◼   ► But I don't think you can hope for accessory continuity

01:00:52 ◼   ► anymore for any longer stretches than you get

01:00:55 ◼   ► on the laptops, right?

01:00:57 ◼   ► Not that laptops have many accessories,

01:00:58 ◼   ► but there are generational form factor changes

01:01:01 ◼   ► and there's no way that Apple is going to make an accessory

01:01:04 ◼   ► or a form factor change with an eye towards making

01:01:08 ◼   ► the same accessory work across generations like that.

01:01:10 ◼   ► They just won't.

01:01:11 ◼   ► The cameras will change and move.

01:01:13 ◼   ► They will decide it's a different size,

01:01:14 ◼   ► a different shape, has different accessories,

01:01:16 ◼   ► different ports, different attachment things

01:01:17 ◼   ► for the pencil.

01:01:19 ◼   ► there's no way that they're going to have that continuity.

01:01:22 ◼   ► And on the phone, occasionally they've had multiple years

01:01:26 ◼   ► in a row where you could share accessories,

01:01:27 ◼   ► but that's about it.

01:01:29 ◼   ► And the phone is probably the closest analog,

01:01:31 ◼   ► because why do they keep changing size and shape?

01:01:33 ◼   ► Well, arguably the phone has even less reason

01:01:35 ◼   ► to change size and shape, because the possible forms,

01:01:38 ◼   ► the possible sizes for phones are much more narrow

01:01:41 ◼   ► than an iPad, which goes from the mini to the 12.9 inch

01:01:45 ◼   ► and could go even bigger than that.

01:01:46 ◼   ► There's plenty of room for a bigger iPad

01:01:48 ◼   ► we talked about all the time,

01:01:49 ◼   ► and the cameras move around, all the buttons move around,

01:01:53 ◼   ► I don't think you're ever gonna see continuity in that area.

01:01:56 ◼   ► It would be nice if they could at least have continuity

01:01:58 ◼   ► of attachment point and then just have

01:02:01 ◼   ► the cutouts be different or whatever.

01:02:03 ◼   ► But I mean, if you think of it,

01:02:07 ◼   ► you don't have continuity of keyboards across laptops

01:02:09 ◼   ► 'cause when you buy a new laptop,

01:02:10 ◼   ► it comes with its own new keyboard

01:02:11 ◼   ► that exactly fits that laptop 'cause they don't detach.

01:02:13 ◼   ► They're not detachable.

01:02:14 ◼   ► but because the iPad is a floppy keyboard sold a la carte,

01:02:19 ◼   ► you have to end up buying the accessories

01:02:22 ◼   ► and you should count yourself lucky

01:02:23 ◼   ► if like Casey your accessory actually lasts

01:02:25 ◼   ► through more than one device.

01:02:26 ◼   ► But I don't think,

01:02:28 ◼   ► you know, we're not like we're gonna reach a point

01:02:29 ◼   ► where they say, well, we're done with the cameras,

01:02:30 ◼   ► we're not gonna improve them anymore.

01:02:32 ◼   ► And I also don't think Apple's gonna do the thing

01:02:33 ◼   ► where they say, let's make a camera race that's massive

01:02:36 ◼   ► that will hold us for the next 10 years

01:02:37 ◼   ► 'cause that's just not the Apple way.

01:02:39 ◼   ► - To that end though, the Magic Keyboard, right?

01:02:43 ◼   ► not the folio, but the magic keyboard,

01:02:45 ◼   ► the cantilever thing.

01:02:46 ◼   ► Mine is definitely showing its age

01:02:48 ◼   ► after just a couple of years.

01:02:49 ◼   ► And I don't travel with my iPad,

01:02:52 ◼   ► I shouldn't say travel.

01:02:53 ◼   ► I don't bring my iPad everywhere.

01:02:55 ◼   ► I use it probably daily,

01:02:58 ◼   ► and I will often bring it in the car or something

01:03:01 ◼   ► if I'm gonna be a passenger for a while.

01:03:03 ◼   ► But it is definitely showing its age.

01:03:05 ◼   ► Like some of the outer,

01:03:07 ◼   ► I don't know how to describe this,

01:03:08 ◼   ► but like the outer thin layers kind of peeling away

01:03:11 ◼   ► to show the interior layer on some of the edges

01:03:14 ◼   ► and in some spots.

01:03:15 ◼   ► And yeah, it is a wear item at, what is this,

01:03:18 ◼   ► like 350 bucks that I paid for this,

01:03:20 ◼   ► or something like that, whatever scene amount of money is.

01:03:22 ◼   ► - Yeah, 300, I think it's like 300 and 350

01:03:24 ◼   ► for the two sizes.

01:03:25 ◼   ► - Wait 'til you find out how much brake pads cost.

01:03:27 ◼   ► - Yeah, right. (laughs)

01:03:28 ◼   ► - A lot of that's labor though, so still.

01:03:30 ◼   ► - Especially if you drive a German car, let me tell you.

01:03:33 ◼   ► But anyway, yeah, it's 300 bucks,

01:03:35 ◼   ► I think you are right, Marco.

01:03:36 ◼   ► - Does the car's nationality make it drive faster

01:03:39 ◼   ► and need more braking?

01:03:40 ◼   ► - And it does make the parts more expensive.

01:03:42 ◼   ► - It makes the parts more expensive.

01:03:44 ◼   ► But I did play very briefly with Magic Keyboard Folio

01:03:47 ◼   ► in the new iPad 10th generation.

01:03:50 ◼   ► I only spent just 30, 45 seconds with it,

01:03:53 ◼   ► but I mean, it was nice.

01:03:54 ◼   ► I liked it, I don't have too much to say about it.

01:03:56 ◼   ► I agree that kickstands are not really my jam

01:03:59 ◼   ► 'cause I do use my iPad on my lap,

01:04:01 ◼   ► especially in the car, but not exclusively in the car,

01:04:03 ◼   ► kind of a lot, and kickstands are not a great fit for that.

01:04:06 ◼   ► I do like the kind of tearability of this new Magic Keyboard Folio where you can just

01:04:12 ◼   ► kind of like tear the iPad off of it and the keyboard is kind of left behind and you still

01:04:17 ◼   ► have the kickstand attached.

01:04:18 ◼   ► But honestly it's not particularly hard to get the iPad out of the Magic Keyboard, the

01:04:23 ◼   ► cantilevered Magic Keyboard.

01:04:25 ◼   ► So I don't think this is for me, obviously, but if you're a folio kickstandy kind of person

01:04:32 ◼   ► then it's nice.

01:04:33 ◼   ► But yeah, my new iPad, I like it.

01:04:37 ◼   ► It is not a revolutionary change from the 2018 model, which I knew.

01:04:43 ◼   ► One of the things I like about it is that it does have 5G and much faster cellular,

01:04:48 ◼   ► because I am a huge fan, as I think we covered last week, huge fan of cellular iPads.

01:04:53 ◼   ► And so I am looking forward to being able to use this on my beloved "Don't Call It a

01:04:56 ◼   ► Park Bench but Picnic" table and get my, hypothetically, get my ridiculously fast speeds.

01:05:02 ◼   ► I was very flummoxed for a moment as I was doing the transfer from one iPad to the other

01:05:07 ◼   ► because it wouldn't let me just port the cellular account.

01:05:11 ◼   ► And I was like, "What?"

01:05:13 ◼   ► And it said that it was there, but it was like grayed out.

01:05:15 ◼   ► Like I couldn't port it from the old iPad.

01:05:17 ◼   ► And I was like, "What?

01:05:18 ◼   ► Oh, oh right, this has an actual physical SIM.

01:05:20 ◼   ► How quickly we forget what physical SIMs are?"

01:05:23 ◼   ► So I just had a brain fart and I didn't even remember it.

01:05:28 ◼   ► It is a little weird though that this M2 equipped iPad Pro is on paper kind of sort of more

01:05:35 ◼   ► powerful than the MacBook Pro I'm talking to you on right now.

01:05:38 ◼   ► I looked up Geekbench scores.

01:05:40 ◼   ► I only spent a moment on this, but I found a Geekbench score that I think is for an equivalent

01:05:44 ◼   ► of my M1 Max MacBook Pro.

01:05:47 ◼   ► Single core score 1337, lite.

01:05:50 ◼   ► Multi core 10, 155.

01:05:52 ◼   ► So 1337, 10,155.

01:05:55 ◼   ► On the M2 MacBook Air, because I couldn't find one on the iPad Pro, M2 MacBook Air,

01:06:00 ◼   ► which hypothetically should be the same, single core is 1930, so a change of about 44% if

01:06:06 ◼   ► I did that math right, so it's 1930 instead of 1337.

01:06:10 ◼   ► Multi-core score is down a bit though, 8926 instead of 10155.

01:06:15 ◼   ► So in single core anyway, this iPad is faster than my computer, even though iPadOS is crippling

01:06:22 ◼   ► it in every measurable way, but that's neither here nor there.

01:06:25 ◼   ► It's a weird feeling.

01:06:26 ◼   ► I'm not sure how I feel about that, but nevertheless, it's fast.

01:06:30 ◼   ► I like it.

01:06:31 ◼   ► The transfer process was a little bit wonky, but all in all, it worked mostly okay.

01:06:38 ◼   ► One of the things that I really love about Apple, I just love this, is that there are

01:06:42 ◼   ► times when there's a spinner and that's it.

01:06:47 ◼   ► It's just spinning.

01:06:48 ◼   ► I don't have a progress bar.

01:06:50 ◼   ► I don't have any feedback.

01:06:52 ◼   ► No sort of log or anything I can look at.

01:06:54 ◼   ► Nope, just spinning.

01:06:56 ◼   ► You should count yourself lucky to have a spinner,

01:06:58 ◼   ► because the ailment that I see in a lot of Apple's UIs,

01:07:01 ◼   ► they do this thing that I've been conditioned by years

01:07:03 ◼   ► as a web developer never to do, which is you do something

01:07:07 ◼   ► to go to the next step in a process, click a button,

01:07:10 ◼   ► tap a link, enter something in a field or whatever.

01:07:13 ◼   ► And before you get to the point where it shows a spinner

01:07:16 ◼   ► or any kind of progress, there is this long period of time

01:07:19 ◼   ► where all of the controls on the screen that you're on

01:07:22 ◼   ► are still perfectly active, still sitting there.

01:07:24 ◼   ► that button that you pressed,

01:07:25 ◼   ► it may have even highlighted when you pressed it.

01:07:27 ◼   ► It could be a button that says next, continue, save, update,

01:07:30 ◼   ► whatever it is that you think you did.

01:07:32 ◼   ► You pressed it, maybe if you're lucky,

01:07:34 ◼   ► you saw it highlight when you pressed it.

01:07:36 ◼   ► And there's this period of time

01:07:38 ◼   ► where the page is just staring at you going like,

01:07:40 ◼   ► yeah, here I am on the screen

01:07:42 ◼   ► that you just thought you interacted with, right?

01:07:44 ◼   ► Nothing on the screen, absolutely nothing.

01:07:46 ◼   ► And then six seconds later, oh, a spinner appears.

01:07:50 ◼   ► It's like, that is the worst, because I understand,

01:07:54 ◼   ► Maybe it's like there's a lag or a server thing or whatever,

01:07:56 ◼   ► but because on the web you're accustomed to the idea

01:07:59 ◼   ► that you are distant from your user,

01:08:01 ◼   ► you must provide immediate feedback that says,

01:08:04 ◼   ► disable the Submit button,

01:08:08 ◼   ► cover the screen with something immediately.

01:08:11 ◼   ► Client-side, let them know that you have successfully

01:08:13 ◼   ► performed an operation that we are then going

01:08:16 ◼   ► to do something about.

01:08:17 ◼   ► You don't have to click anymore.

01:08:19 ◼   ► Don't try to interact with the screen anymore.

01:08:21 ◼   ► You're done with the screen.

01:08:22 ◼   ► You have to communicate that immediately,

01:08:24 ◼   ► not in a way that requires you to get a response

01:08:26 ◼   ► from a server before you do that.

01:08:28 ◼   ► I cannot count the number of things I've done with Apple,

01:08:30 ◼   ► including things like buying stuff or whatever,

01:08:32 ◼   ► where you interact with the screen,

01:08:34 ◼   ► and then it just sits there staring at you,

01:08:36 ◼   ► looking exactly like it did before you interacted with it,

01:08:38 ◼   ► and you're like, okay, did that work?

01:08:42 ◼   ► Should I press it?

01:08:45 ◼   ► Oh, a spinner, okay.

01:08:46 ◼   ► The worst, the worst Apple.

01:08:48 ◼   ► Apple University, there should be,

01:08:50 ◼   ► I know that's not what Apple University is about,

01:08:51 ◼   ► but there should be an Apple University

01:08:53 ◼   ► that reminds people of the basic rules of user interface.

01:08:56 ◼   ► Let the user know immediately

01:08:57 ◼   ► that they have successfully done the thing

01:08:59 ◼   ► and do not let them attempt to do anything else.

01:09:01 ◼   ► I'm smart enough not to go back

01:09:03 ◼   ► and start stabbing at the screen,

01:09:04 ◼   ► but how many people are just like,

01:09:05 ◼   ► "Oh, did that work?

01:09:06 ◼   ► "Let me press it again, let me press it again."

01:09:08 ◼   ► Disable the buttons, cover the screen,

01:09:10 ◼   ► put something up immediately.

01:09:11 ◼   ► Anyway, rant over.

01:09:12 ◼   ► - Well, so I was at the stage, enter iPad passcode,

01:09:16 ◼   ► you know, and it says,

01:09:17 ◼   ► "The passcode you used to unlock this iPad

01:09:18 ◼   ► "will also be used to access safe passwords

01:09:19 ◼   ► and other sensitive data you store in iCloud. So I entered it and the next or

01:09:24 ◼   ► continue or done whatever button in the upper right hand corner of this like

01:09:27 ◼   ► window turned into a spinner and I waited and I waited and I waited. I have

01:09:34 ◼   ► no idea what's happening. It would be super cool Apple if you could give me

01:09:38 ◼   ► any amount of feedback as to whether or not this is progressing. So eventually I

01:09:44 ◼   ► mashed down on the lock button and it puts puts up a little like alert saying

01:09:47 ◼   ► "Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,

01:09:48 ◼   ► you haven't done setting up.

01:09:50 ◼   ► You haven't finished setting up.

01:09:51 ◼   ► What do you wanna do here?"

01:09:52 ◼   ► - How long was eventually?

01:09:53 ◼   ► - I don't know, I think I had like five minutes, maybe.

01:09:56 ◼   ► And maybe it was spinning, who knows?

01:09:58 ◼   ► Who knows?

01:09:59 ◼   ► - I feel like the amount of time

01:10:00 ◼   ► that you wait in an indeterminate spinner

01:10:02 ◼   ► is sort of like, it's always based on your estimation

01:10:05 ◼   ► of how long you think this should take,

01:10:07 ◼   ► and also your estimation of the,

01:10:09 ◼   ► what are the consequences

01:10:11 ◼   ► if I interrupt this in the middle and it screws stuff up.

01:10:13 ◼   ► Setting up an iPad, consequences don't seem that bad.

01:10:15 ◼   ► You haven't actually done anything yet,

01:10:16 ◼   ► It's not filled with your stuff yet, or even if it is,

01:10:18 ◼   ► you can always redo it.

01:10:19 ◼   ► So you might have not much patience there,

01:10:21 ◼   ► but there are other operations where you're like,

01:10:22 ◼   ► I'm literally gonna let this sit overnight

01:10:24 ◼   ► because if it screws up, I'm gonna have a real problem.

01:10:27 ◼   ► - Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more.

01:10:28 ◼   ► But please, Apple, I know you're allergic

01:10:31 ◼   ► to providing any sort of, I don't know,

01:10:33 ◼   ► useful friggin' feedback about what's going on,

01:10:35 ◼   ► but it would be nice if, hey, I don't know,

01:10:38 ◼   ► maybe you could give us a little bit of feedback

01:10:41 ◼   ► other than it's spinning.

01:10:43 ◼   ► It's spinning.

01:10:45 ◼   ► It's spinning, like come on, please.

01:10:48 ◼   ► Please. - At least you got

01:10:49 ◼   ► the spinner. - That's true.

01:10:50 ◼   ► So anyway, so what I ended up doing was shutting it down,

01:10:52 ◼   ► restarting it, and to Apple's credit,

01:10:54 ◼   ► like, you know, everything came up,

01:10:55 ◼   ► and when I went to settings, it was like,

01:10:57 ◼   ► oh, you're not finished setting up your iPad.

01:10:58 ◼   ► Let's continue where you left off.

01:10:59 ◼   ► - And by not finished setting up,

01:11:00 ◼   ► it means you haven't signed up for Apple Arcade yet.

01:11:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, true. (laughing)

01:11:05 ◼   ► But the most annoying thing, and it actually did--

01:11:06 ◼   ► - More ads, just more ads.

01:11:09 ◼   ► - So the most annoying thing about it, though,

01:11:10 ◼   ► in my personal opinion, is test flight apps,

01:11:14 ◼   ► which maybe this is like a, this is a,

01:11:16 ◼   ► it's fine for Marco Merlin, whatever sort of thing,

01:11:18 ◼   ► but TestFlight apps don't do any sort of auto downloading,

01:11:21 ◼   ► like TestFlight itself auto downloads,

01:11:22 ◼   ► but then you have to go in and like download them all.

01:11:24 ◼   ► And on the iPad anyway,

01:11:26 ◼   ► it didn't put them back in the location,

01:11:27 ◼   ► the icons back in locations I wanted the icons,

01:11:30 ◼   ► you know, from the last iPad.

01:11:31 ◼   ► I think it might've done that properly on the phone,

01:11:33 ◼   ► I don't recall, but that was really frustrating.

01:11:35 ◼   ► I'd really like it if Apple could fix that.

01:11:37 ◼   ► The time estimate it gave for the transfer

01:11:39 ◼   ► was under promised and over delivered,

01:11:41 ◼   ► so I was happy about that.

01:11:42 ◼   ► It took me about an hour and change, I think,

01:11:45 ◼   ► something along those lines.

01:11:46 ◼   ► But all in all, it's nice.

01:11:47 ◼   ► The hover thing is cool.

01:11:50 ◼   ► I mean, I don't know if it's really doing much for me,

01:11:52 ◼   ► but it's neat that it works in that it, you know,

01:11:54 ◼   ► when you're using the pencil as kind of like a pointer,

01:11:58 ◼   ► it feels very similar to basically the same, in fact,

01:12:01 ◼   ► as having the point, you know, the mouse pointer

01:12:03 ◼   ► or cursor or whatever, the mouse pointer, you know,

01:12:06 ◼   ► jiggling around the screen, which is neat.

01:12:08 ◼   ► I like it when you're writing a note,

01:12:09 ◼   ► you can see a little dot for where you're about

01:12:11 ◼   ► start writing in Notes. Yeah, I like it. There's nothing about this that has revolutionized my world

01:12:17 ◼   ► yet, but I am happy to have a four-year newer battery. I'm happy to have a four-year less

01:12:22 ◼   ► damaged screen. Not that I dropped it or anything, just the other one has a lot of scratches.

01:12:26 ◼   ► I'm happy to have 5G. So far so good. And I'm genuinely very, very happy that the old accessories

01:12:33 ◼   ► do indeed, though they're the ones I care about anyway, do indeed still work with this, which was

01:12:38 ◼   ► a welcome chain. I mean I knew that was supposed to be the case but it's not the

01:12:43 ◼   ► way it often is so I'm pretty happy about that. So far I would say if

01:12:47 ◼   ► you're coming off a 2018 or newer model, yeah, I mean do you want to spend a whole

01:12:51 ◼   ► bunch of money or do you not? But if you're coming off of something older or

01:12:54 ◼   ► perhaps not an iPad Pro, heck yeah man, go for it. It's good stuff.

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01:14:49 ◼   ► - All right, let's talk about Ventura 16.1,

01:14:54 ◼   ► and iPadOS 16.1 and so on.

01:14:57 ◼   ► I really, really, really wanna talk about stage manager,

01:15:00 ◼   ► but let's save that for a moment.

01:15:02 ◼   ► Did you know system preferences on Ventura

01:15:05 ◼   ► is a hot friggin' mess?

01:15:07 ◼   ► Oh my God, why didn't anyone say anything about this?

01:15:10 ◼   ► It's terrible!

01:15:11 ◼   ► - I think you mean system settings.

01:15:14 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, whatever.

01:15:16 ◼   ► No, it is bad.

01:15:17 ◼   ► It doesn't look good.

01:15:20 ◼   ► I don't think it functions well.

01:15:22 ◼   ► I think there are decent bones here

01:15:24 ◼   ► and I think it could get better,

01:15:25 ◼   ► but ooh, it is not good right now.

01:15:28 ◼   ► Do not want.

01:15:29 ◼   ► - Yeah, I've only used it briefly.

01:15:32 ◼   ► So we were saying earlier about how

01:15:35 ◼   ► the login items thing has changed.

01:15:37 ◼   ► There are areas of it that are better.

01:15:40 ◼   ► There is new functionality.

01:15:42 ◼   ► There is old functionality that has been improved,

01:15:45 ◼   ► like some of the ways that you had to give permissions

01:15:47 ◼   ► for certain things earlier or approve kernel extensions

01:15:50 ◼   ► and stuff like that.

01:15:51 ◼   ► the way in the old System Preferences app was a disaster.

01:15:55 ◼   ► Anything that had the lock on the bottom of the screen,

01:15:57 ◼   ► you had to first notice that, unlock it.

01:16:00 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's fair, that's fair.

01:16:02 ◼   ► - There were so many things about the old Settings app,

01:16:04 ◼   ► the System Preferences app, rather,

01:16:06 ◼   ► that were terrible and that needed to be improved.

01:16:10 ◼   ► And so this is not to say that we should necessarily

01:16:14 ◼   ► keep it the same forever the way it used to be.

01:16:16 ◼   ► However, the new settings app is just a really cheap

01:16:21 ◼   ► and crappy feeling.

01:16:23 ◼   ► Like it feels like a web view.

01:16:26 ◼   ► It feels like a non-native app.

01:16:29 ◼   ► It feels like something that we would make fun of.

01:16:32 ◼   ► - Web views are resizable.

01:16:33 ◼   ► - Oh yeah.

01:16:35 ◼   ► Yeah, like it just, it does not feel like

01:16:38 ◼   ► a high quality app.

01:16:39 ◼   ► It does not fit in with the system at all.

01:16:42 ◼   ► It is, like all the little dumb little like iOS switches

01:16:45 ◼   ► that I have to now control with a mouse awkwardly.

01:16:48 ◼   ► Apple has been arguing for years,

01:16:51 ◼   ► touch interfaces and computer,

01:16:54 ◼   ► like desktop, laptop interfaces are different.

01:16:57 ◼   ► And it's best to design them differently

01:17:00 ◼   ► and optimize for their respective inputs and input methods.

01:17:05 ◼   ► I guess all that logic went out the window

01:17:07 ◼   ► because now they've brought over

01:17:08 ◼   ► like iOS switch controls and stuff

01:17:10 ◼   ► that make no sense on the Mac

01:17:13 ◼   ► in the name of, I guess, consistency,

01:17:15 ◼   ► but I think it's more like they don't have

01:17:17 ◼   ► any more engineers working inside of Apple

01:17:19 ◼   ► who know AppKit, and so they're forced

01:17:22 ◼   ► to use all of this, like, SwiftUI.

01:17:24 ◼   ► I don't know, but whatever it is,

01:17:27 ◼   ► they've changed this major part of the Mac.

01:17:30 ◼   ► The settings app is a major part of the Mac.

01:17:33 ◼   ► Alongside some of the good they have done

01:17:35 ◼   ► with the additional functionality

01:17:36 ◼   ► and the rethinking of some of the crappier areas

01:17:38 ◼   ► of the old system preferences app,

01:17:40 ◼   ► alongside of that, they've wrapped this all

01:17:42 ◼   ► in this pretty terrible UI.

01:17:46 ◼   ► Both the technical bones of it, I think,

01:17:48 ◼   ► are really kind of sloppy, and more importantly,

01:17:51 ◼   ► like the UI design of it.

01:17:53 ◼   ► Technical bugs you could improve over time.

01:17:56 ◼   ► The whole UI paradigm and the UI design of it

01:18:00 ◼   ► are just terrible, and they just feel crappy.

01:18:03 ◼   ► They don't feel like you're using a Mac.

01:18:05 ◼   ► It feels like you're using a Samsung-made web app

01:18:09 ◼   ► that's made to look, or like, remember like when

01:18:11 ◼   ► the iPhone first came out and it was the hot thing.

01:18:14 ◼   ► People made these WordPress themes

01:18:15 ◼   ► that would make your WordPress blog appear

01:18:18 ◼   ► like an iPhone app when viewed in Mobile Safari.

01:18:20 ◼   ► Remember those?

01:18:22 ◼   ► And they were horrible.

01:18:23 ◼   ► Like you'd let--

01:18:23 ◼   ► - Fake table views and the whole rigmarole.

01:18:25 ◼   ► - Yeah, and like fake navigation bars.

01:18:29 ◼   ► So it would be like skinned like an iOS app

01:18:32 ◼   ► in your WordPress blog when viewed in Mobile Safari

01:18:34 ◼   ► back forever ago, right?

01:18:36 ◼   ► But you'd use it as the user

01:18:37 ◼   ► and it just felt like a crappy web page version

01:18:42 ◼   ► of an iOS interface, not like the real thing.

01:18:45 ◼   ► - I feel like that's insulting to web pages

01:18:47 ◼   ► because if I had given this job,

01:18:49 ◼   ► hey, we have system preferences,

01:18:51 ◼   ► it's a mess, we need it to be redesigned.

01:18:53 ◼   ► - Give that to any web designer.

01:18:55 ◼   ► They will design something better than this

01:18:57 ◼   ► because they'll understand the job.

01:18:59 ◼   ► They'll know they have to make it responsive,

01:19:02 ◼   ► they'll make it work well in the allotted space,

01:19:04 ◼   ► maybe if you make the window wider,

01:19:06 ◼   ► it will expand into that place.

01:19:09 ◼   ► The state of the art of web design

01:19:11 ◼   ► could tackle this problem.

01:19:12 ◼   ► It is basically an information architecture problem,

01:19:15 ◼   ► which is a discipline that maybe you buy a different name,

01:19:18 ◼   ► maybe they call it, it's under the umbrella of UX these days,

01:19:20 ◼   ► but IA used to be a big thing

01:19:22 ◼   ► back in the early days of the web.

01:19:23 ◼   ► And the problem was, oh, we've got this big company,

01:19:25 ◼   ► we gotta make a website.

01:19:26 ◼   ► How do we make that, how do we organize that

01:19:28 ◼   ► and make it tractable and able to serve the user's needs?

01:19:32 ◼   ► Because when someone comes to our website,

01:19:33 ◼   ► they probably want to accomplish something.

01:19:35 ◼   ► Do they want to find out what the hours of a restaurant is?

01:19:37 ◼   ► Do they want to download the menu?

01:19:38 ◼   ► Do they want to find out where the locations

01:19:40 ◼   ► of our stores are?

01:19:41 ◼   ► Do they want to shop for something and buy it?

01:19:43 ◼   ► Do they want to find out information about our products?

01:19:45 ◼   ► Like, do they want to find a contact address?

01:19:47 ◼   ► Like, that's just information architecture.

01:19:48 ◼   ► I mean, faced with an entire website for like a big company,

01:19:51 ◼   ► web designers would come in and they would figure out

01:19:54 ◼   ► how do we organize this information,

01:19:56 ◼   ► how do we present it to people in a way

01:19:57 ◼   ► that they can navigate it,

01:19:59 ◼   ► that they understand where they are,

01:20:01 ◼   ► that they can find what they want and accomplish their task.

01:20:03 ◼   ► And that is a, you know, I mean, it's not,

01:20:06 ◼   ► the web is not the place where all its disciplines came out,

01:20:08 ◼   ► but it is the most recent and most closely analogous problem

01:20:11 ◼   ► to organizing system settings.

01:20:13 ◼   ► When I look at this, I say,

01:20:14 ◼   ► any half-decent web designer would have done better at this.

01:20:17 ◼   ► Forget about the technologies behind it,

01:20:18 ◼   ► although I think if you did it as a web view,

01:20:19 ◼   ► it would still be nicer than this.

01:20:21 ◼   ► But what they wouldn't do is make it a fixed-size,

01:20:24 ◼   ► two-pane master detail thing

01:20:25 ◼   ► with multiple levels of hidden hierarchy

01:20:27 ◼   ► that within each thing pops up additional windows

01:20:31 ◼   ► on top of everything that look incredibly janky,

01:20:34 ◼   ► there are places in this thing where there's like,

01:20:35 ◼   ► you have to know that the little I in a circle

01:20:37 ◼   ► next to something is actually a button

01:20:39 ◼   ► that leads you to more settings in a pop-up window

01:20:41 ◼   ► that displays over the top of things,

01:20:43 ◼   ► and there's also a button called options,

01:20:45 ◼   ► and there's also a little button with three dots on it

01:20:47 ◼   ► and a downward-facing arrow all on the same screen.

01:20:50 ◼   ► What is this?

01:20:51 ◼   ► Have they ever seen a computer before?

01:20:53 ◼   ► No one on the web would do that.

01:20:54 ◼   ► No one would ever put those controls on the web

01:20:56 ◼   ► because nobody has any idea what they are.

01:20:58 ◼   ► It is such a mess, it makes me so angry,

01:21:01 ◼   ► and this is setting aside any bugs of like,

01:21:03 ◼   ► oh, it doesn't display properly

01:21:05 ◼   ► and something is truncated or whatever.

01:21:06 ◼   ► This just, I mean, I'm getting angry about this

01:21:09 ◼   ► because like during the whole time it's like,

01:21:11 ◼   ► oh, it's just a baby, it'll get better,

01:21:12 ◼   ► you'll see, whatever.

01:21:13 ◼   ► And I held my tongue 'cause let's see what it looks like.

01:21:15 ◼   ► But in the end, like you said, Marco,

01:21:18 ◼   ► the bones of this thing, they're wrong, they're bad.

01:21:21 ◼   ► And comparing it to the web, it's like, seriously,

01:21:24 ◼   ► this is a web design task, it's not that tricky,

01:21:26 ◼   ► it's not as big as a big corporate website,

01:21:28 ◼   ► but it should have been tackled in that way.

01:21:30 ◼   ► And when I look at this, I think about Windows,

01:21:33 ◼   ► which I have limited experience with,

01:21:34 ◼   ► but you know, anyone who's used Windows

01:21:36 ◼   ► had seen the various runs that Microsoft has taken

01:21:38 ◼   ► at reimagining and reorganizing their system settings

01:21:42 ◼   ► from Windows 7 to Windows 8 to Windows 10.

01:21:46 ◼   ► I'm not gonna particularly endorse

01:21:48 ◼   ► the approaches that they've taken,

01:21:50 ◼   ► but every single one of those approaches

01:21:52 ◼   ► to redesigning settings in Windows

01:21:54 ◼   ► is more thoughtful and better executed

01:21:58 ◼   ► than system settings in Ventura.

01:21:59 ◼   ► And when I'm saying something in Windows was not,

01:22:02 ◼   ► not necessarily better,

01:22:03 ◼   ► but more thoughtful and better executed.

01:22:05 ◼   ► When I look at settings in Windows 10,

01:22:07 ◼   ► I can understand how they arrived at this,

01:22:11 ◼   ► how they put their minds together,

01:22:12 ◼   ► the meetings they had, they said,

01:22:13 ◼   ► "Here's what we have to organize.

01:22:14 ◼   ► "Here's the things that most people do.

01:22:15 ◼   ► "How can we put that in a UI?"

01:22:17 ◼   ► And I know it's working,

01:22:18 ◼   ► because I have no idea where anything is in Windows,

01:22:19 ◼   ► and I can navigate it to get my job set.

01:22:22 ◼   ► It annoys me, because I think it is a wrapper

01:22:24 ◼   ► over the real settings that are underneath,

01:22:25 ◼   ► and you gotta click properties

01:22:27 ◼   ► to get to the thing you really want

01:22:28 ◼   ► down in some UI from 1995,

01:22:30 ◼   ► like I'm not endorsing the Windows approach,

01:22:32 ◼   ► but it's clear that it was better thought out than this.

01:22:35 ◼   ► 'Cause this is like, this strikes me as something

01:22:37 ◼   ► where they had too small of a team

01:22:39 ◼   ► and not the right people on this team.

01:22:41 ◼   ► Because what you needed, not that you needed web designers,

01:22:43 ◼   ► but you needed information architects and UI designers.

01:22:48 ◼   ► And then secondarily, a very good tech team

01:22:51 ◼   ► to actually do the hard work,

01:22:52 ◼   ► and I don't wanna describe the tech,

01:22:53 ◼   ► but the hard work of actually making a new UI

01:22:56 ◼   ► and all these very technical things under the covers,

01:22:58 ◼   ► 'cause they didn't change all the underlying stuff,

01:23:00 ◼   ► but they have to put a new UI on all of it,

01:23:01 ◼   ► that's a huge task.

01:23:03 ◼   ► They accomplished that task,

01:23:04 ◼   ► but the UI they put on top looks like an afterthought

01:23:07 ◼   ► and it makes me angry.

01:23:08 ◼   ► - Yeah, it looks bad, it feels bad,

01:23:12 ◼   ► it does not look or feel anything

01:23:15 ◼   ► like anything else on the Mac, nor should it.

01:23:18 ◼   ► Like nothing else on the Mac should look like that.

01:23:21 ◼   ► - Don't copy this in your app.

01:23:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, please don't.

01:23:23 ◼   ► And I hope this isn't the direction Apple's bringing

01:23:25 ◼   ► their other apps, but that's an interesting question.

01:23:30 ◼   ► All the Apple apps on the platform,

01:23:32 ◼   ► their preferences windows look like the old system

01:23:37 ◼   ► preferences, are they going to go through all of their apps

01:23:39 ◼   ► and redo all their preferences to look like system settings

01:23:42 ◼   ► now, I hope not, but it's also weird that they're different

01:23:45 ◼   ► now, like it just, Apple is so rapidly losing the ability

01:23:52 ◼   ► to make Mac software.

01:23:55 ◼   ► And it's very concerning for the company

01:23:57 ◼   ► that makes the most and the most important Mac software.

01:24:00 ◼   ► Like, it's been a long time since they made a great Mac app,

01:24:02 ◼   ► let's be honest, but I mean, this is another level

01:24:06 ◼   ► of willfully throwing away the things that make a Mac good.

01:24:11 ◼   ► And it's not to say that you can never update those things

01:24:14 ◼   ► and change those things with changing times.

01:24:16 ◼   ► You can and you should and they should and they have.

01:24:19 ◼   ► And not all the changes have been good,

01:24:21 ◼   ► but at least they have moved the Mac forward over time.

01:24:24 ◼   ► But I don't know how anybody can look at this

01:24:27 ◼   ► and say this is good.

01:24:29 ◼   ► The only defenses I've ever heard about it

01:24:32 ◼   ► were people who play What Aboutism

01:24:34 ◼   ► by pointing out flaws in the old System Preferences app,

01:24:37 ◼   ► which again, those are valid.

01:24:39 ◼   ► There are tons of flaws in the old System Preferences app

01:24:42 ◼   ► that could be made better and should be made better.

01:24:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, and it could use an overhaul.

01:24:45 ◼   ► It needed an overhaul.

01:24:46 ◼   ► I'm not saying it's not an overhaul.

01:24:47 ◼   ► It absolutely needs to be overhauled.

01:24:48 ◼   ► And all of the things that,

01:24:50 ◼   ► any complaint that you hear is like,

01:24:51 ◼   ► oh, I can't find anything.

01:24:52 ◼   ► Like there's always gonna be unfamiliarity

01:24:54 ◼   ► when you have an overhaul,

01:24:54 ◼   ► but the old one needed an overhaul.

01:24:56 ◼   ► It's just not this overhaul.

01:24:58 ◼   ► It needed a better overhaul.

01:24:59 ◼   ► An overhaul that was better thought out.

01:25:02 ◼   ► In some ways, this constrained itself too much

01:25:06 ◼   ► to the old style, in particular, the fixed size window.

01:25:09 ◼   ► And just like that, that seems to dictate the whole,

01:25:11 ◼   ► like I can picture in my head the designer-y,

01:25:14 ◼   ► dribble-style mock-up of like,

01:25:16 ◼   ► what a real modern system preferences would be like.

01:25:18 ◼   ► Jason Snell talked about it in a few of his articles.

01:25:20 ◼   ► we'll put links in the show notes of like,

01:25:22 ◼   ► imagine if this had been like,

01:25:24 ◼   ► even if it had just been as good as a decent iPad port

01:25:27 ◼   ► of a phone app, where it becomes a three column view,

01:25:29 ◼   ► or you have an actual hierarchy

01:25:30 ◼   ► where things are organized better,

01:25:32 ◼   ► where when you get to the leaf nodes,

01:25:33 ◼   ► they look reasonably well thought out

01:25:35 ◼   ► instead of the weirdest jumble of controls

01:25:37 ◼   ► you've ever seen in your entire life.

01:25:39 ◼   ► I wish I should find the ones with the little I

01:25:41 ◼   ► and the like the I and the options button,

01:25:43 ◼   ► all the other things like,

01:25:44 ◼   ► you look at this and as a Mac user,

01:25:46 ◼   ► as a web user, as an iOS user,

01:25:48 ◼   ► you have no idea what to control where it might lead to.

01:25:51 ◼   ► Just cause it to crash by clicking around in it.

01:25:54 ◼   ► There are some bugs too, but whatever.

01:25:55 ◼   ► It's baffling to me that the things

01:25:59 ◼   ► that are in the detail pane,

01:26:01 ◼   ► that they think that is a Mac UI.

01:26:03 ◼   ► I don't know what it is, it's not even a good webpage.

01:26:05 ◼   ► - Yeah, you're right.

01:26:07 ◼   ► I guess comparing it to a webpage earlier,

01:26:10 ◼   ► and what I was really saying was it's like those old

01:26:12 ◼   ► iOS themes of WordPress, which were terrible,

01:26:16 ◼   ► but it's like the Mac UI version of that.

01:26:19 ◼   ► Like it's trying to look like a Mac UI, sort of,

01:26:23 ◼   ► and also trying to look like an iPad UI, sort of,

01:26:26 ◼   ► and it's doing a terrible job at both of those things,

01:26:30 ◼   ► and it ends up looking and feeling and working horribly.

01:26:35 ◼   ► And it feels like, again, it's like those

01:26:38 ◼   ► whole WordPress themes, it feels like,

01:26:41 ◼   ► or like, you ever have some crappy Linux

01:26:45 ◼   ► window manager thing that tries to theme itself

01:26:47 ◼   ► to look like a Mac, it's not even that good.

01:26:50 ◼   ► It's worse than those.

01:26:52 ◼   ► It is a terrible imitation UI.

01:26:56 ◼   ► Samsung makes better UIs now than that.

01:26:59 ◼   ► And Samsung rips off Apple's style better than that.

01:27:03 ◼   ► Why, like how,

01:27:04 ◼   ► how this shipped, who approved this?

01:27:10 ◼   ► Like how, okay, have a project in the company

01:27:14 ◼   ► to redo the system preferences app.

01:27:16 ◼   ► Yeah, it was getting old.

01:27:17 ◼   ► But who approved this design direction?

01:27:21 ◼   ► And who made the call, presumably maybe this spring

01:27:25 ◼   ► sometime, to say, we're gonna get this shipped

01:27:27 ◼   ► in this release?

01:27:28 ◼   ► Because neither of those things should have happened.

01:27:31 ◼   ► This design should never have gotten past initial review,

01:27:35 ◼   ► and whoever's above that, maybe it's Federighi,

01:27:38 ◼   ► should never have said, this is ready to ship

01:27:40 ◼   ► in this version of the OS.

01:27:42 ◼   ► Neither of those, like those are two massive failures

01:27:45 ◼   ► at probably pretty high levels in the company.

01:27:49 ◼   ► Again, this keeps happening.

01:27:51 ◼   ► Like I, oh, what's going on over there?

01:27:54 ◼   ► Like, you know, I try to cut them slack

01:27:57 ◼   ► and I try to make sure we always celebrate

01:28:00 ◼   ► all the good stuff that's going out of the company

01:28:02 ◼   ► because there's a lot of it.

01:28:03 ◼   ► But man, the same problems keep happening.

01:28:06 ◼   ► Like what's going on and is anything,

01:28:09 ◼   ► are they learning?

01:28:11 ◼   ► Are they trying to get better?

01:28:12 ◼   ► Do they even think it's a problem?

01:28:14 ◼   ► I don't know the answer to any of those is yes.

01:28:17 ◼   ► - I just put the little screenshot of my little friend

01:28:20 ◼   ► that I was describing in our Slack channel

01:28:23 ◼   ► if you wanna take a look at it.

01:28:24 ◼   ► For those at home, if you wanna take a look at it,

01:28:26 ◼   ► if you have Ventura, go to the network thing.

01:28:29 ◼   ► It's the third item down on the sidebar.

01:28:32 ◼   ► And then scroll to the bottom

01:28:33 ◼   ► and you get this friendly fellow

01:28:34 ◼   ► just peeking at you over there.

01:28:36 ◼   ► - It's a three dot drop down?

01:28:38 ◼   ► What?

01:28:40 ◼   ► - The iOS and the web convention is three dots

01:28:43 ◼   ► means like a menu with more stuff.

01:28:45 ◼   ► And that kind of came from the phone

01:28:46 ◼   ► where there's not a lot of room on the phone.

01:28:47 ◼   ► And if you want to indicate

01:28:48 ◼   ► like there was the hamburger thing with three lines

01:28:51 ◼   ► and variations on that to say there's a menu

01:28:52 ◼   ► but also the three dots.

01:28:53 ◼   ► It's a convention we're familiar with from the phones

01:28:55 ◼   ► where space is constrained.

01:28:56 ◼   ► I am on a 6K display

01:28:59 ◼   ► and this window can't get any bigger than it is.

01:29:01 ◼   ► And at the very bottom, there is three dots

01:29:03 ◼   ► and also a downward facing Chevron.

01:29:05 ◼   ► And that is not a Mac control.

01:29:07 ◼   ► I don't know what the thing is.

01:29:09 ◼   ► - It is now.

01:29:10 ◼   ► - Can you guess what's under that without clicking on it?

01:29:12 ◼   ► It's the network thing, and you see network,

01:29:14 ◼   ► and it shows, it's just a linear list of items

01:29:16 ◼   ► that are making very poor use of the space,

01:29:18 ◼   ► each of which has a chevron on the right,

01:29:19 ◼   ► because of course there's multiple layers of hierarchy

01:29:21 ◼   ► in this window that can't get any wider, right?

01:29:24 ◼   ► With no animations between them.

01:29:26 ◼   ► And then at the very, very bottom,

01:29:27 ◼   ► next to the help question mark,

01:29:28 ◼   ► there is three buttons and a chevron.

01:29:31 ◼   ► A lot of things in this, like,

01:29:32 ◼   ► you're helped by knowledge of the old system preferences,

01:29:35 ◼   ► because basically, look, if you knew something

01:29:37 ◼   ► exists in the old system preferences,

01:29:39 ◼   ► and you're pretty sure it still exists here,

01:29:40 ◼   ► but you don't see it where you expect,

01:29:42 ◼   ► try clicking all the secret buttons.

01:29:44 ◼   ► Click all the little eyes, click all the little chevrons,

01:29:46 ◼   ► and maybe at the very bottom there's a thing lurking

01:29:48 ◼   ► that has three dots and a downward facing arrow.

01:29:50 ◼   ► Or maybe there's an advanced button,

01:29:53 ◼   ► or maybe there's an option button.

01:29:55 ◼   ► Or maybe there's all three of those in a single pane.

01:29:57 ◼   ► It's not good.

01:29:58 ◼   ► - Cool.

01:30:00 ◼   ► Yeah, so system preferences, it's bad.

01:30:02 ◼   ► - System settings, not preferences.

01:30:04 ◼   ► - Whatever, often costs. - It's really annoying

01:30:05 ◼   ► because as we've been complaining in Slack

01:30:07 ◼   ► and everything about this,

01:30:08 ◼   ► used to writing sys prefs.

01:30:09 ◼   ► It's the shorter way, you know, it's S-Y-S space P-R-E-F-S.

01:30:13 ◼   ► But I can't say sys sets.

01:30:14 ◼   ► - P-R-E-F-S.

01:30:15 ◼   ► - Sys settings, and it's like, when I complained about it,

01:30:18 ◼   ► it makes me type more, just yeah, I'm not enjoying it.

01:30:21 ◼   ► By the way, that's one of the most important updates

01:30:23 ◼   ► and when you're updating a Mac app for Ventura,

01:30:25 ◼   ► you gotta change all your preferences menu items

01:30:27 ◼   ► to say settings, which I did.

01:30:29 ◼   ► They say preferences when you run it

01:30:32 ◼   ► on pre-Ventura systems, which is another, you know,

01:30:34 ◼   ► you have to be careful to do that.

01:30:35 ◼   ► And so you have to change all your help text.

01:30:37 ◼   ► It's great writing the help text that says,

01:30:39 ◼   ► go to the menu and select settings or preferences,

01:30:41 ◼   ► and you have to explain which OSes those apply to.

01:30:42 ◼   ► Every time you mention in help text

01:30:44 ◼   ► what menu item people have to go to,

01:30:46 ◼   ► you gotta do this little dance.

01:30:47 ◼   ► Lots of fun.

01:30:49 ◼   ► - Cool.

01:30:49 ◼   ► You know what else is lots of fun?

01:30:51 ◼   ► Watching the spectacular ways in which Stage Manager breaks

01:30:54 ◼   ► on both iPad and on macOS.

01:30:56 ◼   ► Again, did anyone, why didn't anyone say that this is a mess?

01:31:01 ◼   ► Because holy frickin' crap, this is a mess.

01:31:05 ◼   ► I feel like it's way more stable on Mac OS.

01:31:09 ◼   ► I think it's more interesting and useful for me anyway

01:31:13 ◼   ► on iPad OS, but it is unusable on iPad OS.

01:31:17 ◼   ► It is so, so bad.

01:31:20 ◼   ► It's so bad on iPad.

01:31:22 ◼   ► And on the Mac, I don't care for it, but it mostly works.

01:31:27 ◼   ► I don't, I don't know.

01:31:30 ◼   ► It's like, so I think part of the problem is

01:31:32 ◼   ► I'm a devout Spaces user,

01:31:33 ◼   ► as we've talked about a few times recently.

01:31:35 ◼   ► I really like using spaces.

01:31:36 ◼   ► I think spaces are great.

01:31:38 ◼   ► I like having different spaces.

01:31:40 ◼   ► And even in some cases,

01:31:42 ◼   ► like having one or two full screen apps in a space.

01:31:45 ◼   ► I am a heavy, heavy spaces user.

01:31:47 ◼   ► This is why I couldn't ever get away

01:31:50 ◼   ► from the Magic Mouse or now the Magic Trackpad

01:31:52 ◼   ► because I need those gestures,

01:31:53 ◼   ► two finger swipe and the Magic Mouse,

01:31:55 ◼   ► three fingers on the trackpad,

01:31:57 ◼   ► in order to go between spaces.

01:31:58 ◼   ► It's just part of how I work.

01:32:01 ◼   ► I feel like Stage Manager is like a crappy version of Spaces, and that's probably unfair

01:32:07 ◼   ► because maybe it's just Spaces for a different purpose, but from my point of view, it's like

01:32:12 ◼   ► a crappy version of Spaces.

01:32:14 ◼   ► On the Mac, I tend to have one space on the Ultrafine, so on my accessory monitor, I have

01:32:21 ◼   ► one space that's maybe two-thirds Slack and one-third Messages, and Tiled, so they're

01:32:26 ◼   ► both, you know, they're not literally full screen, but you know, they're in full screen

01:32:29 ◼   ► mode, tiled two thirds and one third. And when I have stage manager turned on, when

01:32:34 ◼   ► I would swipe to that space, messages, the first party app would be black for a beat,

01:32:42 ◼   ► and then the UI would show up. Swipe away, come back, black, oh there it is. Which was

01:32:47 ◼   ► not annoying at all. And then the multi-monitor support in general on Mac OS seemed really

01:32:53 ◼   ► really wonky. I don't know, it didn't seem right to me. Things that were happening on

01:32:58 ◼   ► The left hand monitor would occasionally affect the right hand monitor, but then occasionally

01:33:02 ◼   ► they wouldn't.

01:33:03 ◼   ► It was super weird.

01:33:04 ◼   ► On iPadOS, I forget specifically what I was doing, but I think I was trying to share something

01:33:10 ◼   ► in a share sheet and then send it as a text message or an iMessage and type an aim into

01:33:17 ◼   ► that iMessage and the keyboard was not within the window of the message window or something

01:33:23 ◼   ► like that.

01:33:24 ◼   ► The onscreen keyboard was totally out of whack.

01:33:27 ◼   ► There's a bunch of on-screen keyboard bugs in iPad OS 16.1.

01:33:32 ◼   ► I thought it was just the betas, but now I'm pretty sure I'm on the release.

01:33:35 ◼   ► I removed the beta profile and it says there's no new updates or whatever.

01:33:40 ◼   ► Lots of people have been reporting situations where they're on their iPad and they're supposed

01:33:43 ◼   ► to be able to use the keyboard to enter text in the thing and it doesn't work.

01:33:47 ◼   ► Some people were saying they would see a flash or it would appear and disappear.

01:33:51 ◼   ► My bug is you put the insertion point in a text field and no keyboard appears in any

01:33:56 ◼   ► Orientation just none. There's no way out of it

01:33:59 ◼   ► The only way out of it is to you, you know, leave the app or restart the iPad and that's not great

01:34:03 ◼   ► That's like it's like trying to use your Mac and all of a sudden someone steals your keyboard

01:34:06 ◼   ► I won't give you another one because you know

01:34:08 ◼   ► I suppose I could try to find a Bluetooth keyboard to connect to my iPad to enter text

01:34:12 ◼   ► But if I'm in the middle of doing something and the keyboard literally won't come up. That's a pretty frustrating bug in a shipping OS

01:34:16 ◼   ► So stage manager all the rumors were true. It's a mess system settings all the rumors were true

01:34:25 ◼   ► It's a mess. I haven't yet tried

01:34:27 ◼   ► the shared photos library thing. I am very keen to try it

01:34:35 ◼   ► but I haven't gotten around to updating Aaron's stuff yet

01:34:38 ◼   ► and that's the whole purpose of this is for Aaron to finally get to see

01:34:42 ◼   ► all of the family's photos in the same way you John would finally get to see all the family's photos because I and Tina

01:34:48 ◼   ► or Tina and myself are the keepers of the official family photo albums or photo libraries.

01:34:53 ◼   ► So have you been playing with the shared library stuff yet? I

01:34:56 ◼   ► certainly have so first of all, they didn't mention this but on

01:35:00 ◼   ► Ventura like the word on the street is that it seems pretty good for an initial release and as

01:35:06 ◼   ► predicted on a past show

01:35:07 ◼   ► I knew I would not be able to like wait the appropriate amount of time to

01:35:12 ◼   ► install this OS and start using because I want I've been waited for whatever is a decade and you know, 12 years whatever for the

01:35:18 ◼   ► shared library feature

01:35:20 ◼   ► So I installed Ventura on every single Mac in the house on day one and I updated all the phones 16.1

01:35:27 ◼   ► I just went all in I did massive amounts of backups first

01:35:30 ◼   ► But I went all in because I just I want this feature and to get the benefit of this feature

01:35:35 ◼   ► you kind of have to update everybody because it's I didn't want to like mix and match and you know, so

01:35:39 ◼   ► My experience so far having it's Wednesday. I installed I've been her and everything on Monday

01:35:45 ◼   ► Everything's been fine in terms of OS stability compatibility or whatever all the complaints about system settings are like it's annoying but like

01:35:52 ◼   ► Things aren't crashing didn't break a bunch of my software. It's been very stable for me for whatever that's worth

01:35:58 ◼   ► Three days experience on like five different max

01:36:00 ◼   ► I give it a thumbs up and I did this because I wanted to use the photo shared library

01:36:06 ◼   ► and

01:36:07 ◼   ► I I tried to be cautious about it like

01:36:11 ◼   ► So the first thing is, now that it's really real installed,

01:36:14 ◼   ► like the first time I ever used my real Apple IDs

01:36:15 ◼   ► and this, whatever, my first decision I had to make was,

01:36:19 ◼   ► who will create the shared library?

01:36:22 ◼   ► Will it be my wife who owns the current real family library,

01:36:26 ◼   ► or would it be me?

01:36:27 ◼   ► I'm not sure what the correct move to do there is,

01:36:30 ◼   ► but it's kind of important 'cause it's difficult

01:36:32 ◼   ► to change your mind on that in the future.

01:36:35 ◼   ► Either way, we're on like an iCloud family plan,

01:36:37 ◼   ► we all share like the family,

01:36:39 ◼   ► it's not like a storage thing,

01:36:40 ◼   ► We don't have individual store.

01:36:41 ◼   ► I think it's like all big one family, whatever,

01:36:43 ◼   ► it's the Apple one giant pool of storage thing.

01:36:45 ◼   ► So that's fine.

01:36:47 ◼   ► I kind of regret having my wife's Apple ID

01:36:52 ◼   ► on the family library,

01:36:54 ◼   ► 'cause that means as we discussed in the past episodes,

01:36:57 ◼   ► I still have to log in as her on my Mac to do stuff

01:37:00 ◼   ► because shared photo library does not share albums

01:37:03 ◼   ► or book projects or slideshows

01:37:05 ◼   ► or any of the other stuff that I work on.

01:37:06 ◼   ► So I have to be in her library to mess with those things

01:37:09 ◼   ► 'cause I've had years worth of those things in there

01:37:10 ◼   ► and I make new ones in there.

01:37:12 ◼   ► So it's not like I can be logged into myself like,

01:37:15 ◼   ► well, maybe if I own the shared library

01:37:18 ◼   ► for whatever that's worth,

01:37:19 ◼   ► whatever quote unquote owning the shared library even means,

01:37:23 ◼   ► maybe I can slowly transition the library to me.

01:37:25 ◼   ► But in the end I wimped out and I said,

01:37:27 ◼   ► she's gonna own the shared library.

01:37:28 ◼   ► Again, I'm not sure what owning means.

01:37:30 ◼   ► Something I read probably on Six Colors from Snell

01:37:33 ◼   ► said basically like the storage for photos

01:37:36 ◼   ► in a shared library, like the iCloud storage,

01:37:38 ◼   ► is attributed to whoever created the shared library.

01:37:42 ◼   ► And again, not that it matters storage-wise,

01:37:44 ◼   ► but I'll just have her own itself.

01:37:46 ◼   ► I created the shared library from her account.

01:37:49 ◼   ► And then as I was gonna start cautiously

01:37:52 ◼   ► playing with this feature, now that everybody's updated,

01:37:54 ◼   ► and it occurred to me something

01:37:56 ◼   ► I hadn't really thought about before.

01:37:58 ◼   ► So my photo library is pushing a terabyte these days.

01:38:02 ◼   ► It used to be on a 500 gig drive, it outgrew that,

01:38:04 ◼   ► now it's pushing a terabyte.

01:38:06 ◼   ► And both I and my wife's Mac,

01:38:08 ◼   ► we have four terabyte boot drives.

01:38:10 ◼   ► And our four terabyte boot drives pretty much hold

01:38:14 ◼   ► all of our stuff plus a complete copy of our photo library,

01:38:18 ◼   ► right, and then with some room to spare, right?

01:38:20 ◼   ► And I figured, okay, if I go through this in my head

01:38:24 ◼   ► and I make this shared photo library

01:38:26 ◼   ► and I start moving essentially all of the photos

01:38:30 ◼   ► from my wife's photo library into the shared library,

01:38:33 ◼   ► 'cause that's the family thing,

01:38:36 ◼   ► and I have photos set to download originals,

01:38:40 ◼   ► that will mean that on my Mac,

01:38:44 ◼   ► where currently if I log in as my wife,

01:38:45 ◼   ► she's got the full photo library

01:38:47 ◼   ► with download original set,

01:38:49 ◼   ► I'll have a second copy of every single one of those photos

01:38:54 ◼   ► in my photo library.

01:38:55 ◼   ► Because even though they're the same photos

01:38:57 ◼   ► on the cloud side, as far as my Mac is concerned,

01:39:00 ◼   ► there are two users, me and my wife,

01:39:02 ◼   ► who both have iCloud photo library turned on,

01:39:04 ◼   ► who both have the option check to download originals.

01:39:07 ◼   ► And it fits when it's one terabyte of photos

01:39:09 ◼   ► in my wife's account.

01:39:10 ◼   ► But when I, because on my Mac,

01:39:12 ◼   ► I have a download originals from my photo library too.

01:39:15 ◼   ► I think that counts for the shared photo library as well.

01:39:18 ◼   ► So I'm like, I can't actually fit two copies

01:39:21 ◼   ► of my photo library on my Mac, on my boot drive.

01:39:26 ◼   ► So I wasn't sure what to do about that,

01:39:28 ◼   ► but I figured, well, I mean,

01:39:30 ◼   ► my photo library is not really used,

01:39:32 ◼   ► like the only thing that's in my photo library

01:39:34 ◼   ► is not in the family library, or things

01:39:36 ◼   ► like when I take pictures of receipts or random,

01:39:39 ◼   ► you know, things that I'm not going to keep, right?

01:39:42 ◼   ► And there's a lot of those, but pretty much everything else

01:39:45 ◼   ► there's a copy of in the big library.

01:39:46 ◼   ► So I decided the only way I could deal with this

01:39:48 ◼   ► is to change the option in photos on my account

01:39:52 ◼   ► to be optimized storage instead of download originals.

01:39:56 ◼   ► And I was hoping that would allow me not

01:39:57 ◼   ► to blow through my storage.

01:39:59 ◼   ► So that's what I did.

01:40:00 ◼   ► And then I started moving photos into it.

01:40:02 ◼   ► So I went to her computer, you know,

01:40:03 ◼   ► because I figured why not, instead of pushing back and forth

01:40:05 ◼   ► in accounts on my computer, I went to her computer

01:40:07 ◼   ► and I dragged, you know, the recent five or 10 photos

01:40:11 ◼   ► into the shared library.

01:40:13 ◼   ► And then I looked over at my computer

01:40:14 ◼   ► and I saw them appear, I'm like, cool.

01:40:17 ◼   ► Then I selected a hundred of them.

01:40:19 ◼   ► And I said, you know, move to shared photo library.

01:40:22 ◼   ► I got a message about like,

01:40:23 ◼   ► some of these photos haven't been saved.

01:40:25 ◼   ► They have to be saved first

01:40:26 ◼   ► before you can move into the shared photo library.

01:40:27 ◼   ► I'm like, what?

01:40:28 ◼   ► Saved?

01:40:30 ◼   ► They're saving in the photos app on the Mac?

01:40:31 ◼   ► What does that mean?

01:40:32 ◼   ► The dialogue had a button that said save.

01:40:34 ◼   ► I'm like, I guess save?

01:40:36 ◼   ► I had never seen that before.

01:40:37 ◼   ► I'm testing with the betas.

01:40:39 ◼   ► I hit save.

01:40:40 ◼   ► - Does it mean download?

01:40:41 ◼   ► - Her library has always been set to download originals.

01:40:45 ◼   ► It has never not been set to that.

01:40:46 ◼   ► Everything is downloaded.

01:40:48 ◼   ► I don't know what, you know, anyway.

01:40:50 ◼   ► So I hit save and then, you know,

01:40:52 ◼   ► so the magic of photos on the Mac is,

01:40:55 ◼   ► when you do anything,

01:40:56 ◼   ► if there is any kind of product or syndication,

01:41:00 ◼   ► if you're lucky, there will be one.

01:41:02 ◼   ► And if it is there, it is cleverly hidden

01:41:05 ◼   ► at the bottom of a large scrolling region.

01:41:08 ◼   ► So the sort of detail view on photos is usually scrollable.

01:41:11 ◼   ► If you scroll to the very, very bottom of that thing,

01:41:14 ◼   ► if you're lucky, you will see some

01:41:15 ◼   ► completely inaccurate progress description there, right?

01:41:18 ◼   ► So it's the most well-hidden progress indication,

01:41:21 ◼   ► and it lies, and it doesn't make any sense.

01:41:22 ◼   ► And I spend a lot of time with FSU usage

01:41:25 ◼   ► and OSOF trying to figure out,

01:41:26 ◼   ► is anything literally doing anything?

01:41:28 ◼   ► - Oh my gosh.

01:41:29 ◼   ► I wanna see file system, system calls flying by

01:41:33 ◼   ► and the photo library de-processed

01:41:35 ◼   ► to let me know something is happening

01:41:37 ◼   ► because that progress bar has not moved in hours.

01:41:38 ◼   ► Anyway, I'm getting ahead of myself.

01:41:40 ◼   ► So eventually it let me put like 100 photos in there.

01:41:43 ◼   ► Then I went over and looked at my Mac

01:41:44 ◼   ► and I saw the 100 photos appear.

01:41:45 ◼   ► I'm like, hmm, all right.

01:41:46 ◼   ► And so over the course of a few days,

01:41:48 ◼   ► I got bolder and bolder and started selecting larger

01:41:52 ◼   ► and larger collections of photos from her library.

01:41:56 ◼   ► I had her set to show me just her personal library.

01:41:58 ◼   ► I would select photos and I would either right click

01:42:00 ◼   ► or click on the image menu.

01:42:02 ◼   ► And from the other right click context menu

01:42:04 ◼   ► or the image menu in Mac photos,

01:42:06 ◼   ► I would say move end photos to shared photo library, right?

01:42:10 ◼   ► As I kept doing that, I eventually got to the point

01:42:14 ◼   ► where I was selecting thousands of photos.

01:42:16 ◼   ► And once you select thousands of photos,

01:42:19 ◼   ► whether you right click or you click the image menu

01:42:22 ◼   ► in the menu bar, you get a beach ball.

01:42:24 ◼   ► You just gotta power through that beach ball.

01:42:27 ◼   ► You just have to let it spin for a little while

01:42:29 ◼   ► because what it's basically doing is figuring out,

01:42:32 ◼   ► I guess, how many photos you've selected

01:42:34 ◼   ► and maybe preflighting them to say there's unsaved changes.

01:42:39 ◼   ► Honestly, I don't know what it's doing, but it blocks.

01:42:42 ◼   ► It blocks hard, it beach balls.

01:42:44 ◼   ► Does not mean that it's broken, but you do have to wait.

01:42:48 ◼   ► And then after you wait, be careful that you don't

01:42:51 ◼   ► mouse off of that menu accidentally

01:42:53 ◼   ► because you gotta do the beach ball all over again

01:42:55 ◼   ► once that thing disappears.

01:42:56 ◼   ► - Oh no.

01:42:57 ◼   ► - It doesn't re-display, yeah.

01:43:00 ◼   ► And so I kept doing it in batches,

01:43:01 ◼   ► and what you'll see when I do it in batches is

01:43:04 ◼   ► it will show the hidden progress bar,

01:43:06 ◼   ► the progress at the bottom,

01:43:07 ◼   ► kind of like fruit on the bottom yogurt from Dannon.

01:43:09 ◼   ► The progress at the bottom,

01:43:11 ◼   ► you scroll all the way down there,

01:43:12 ◼   ► and what it'll say is eventually,

01:43:14 ◼   ► like five or 10 seconds after you perform the command,

01:43:18 ◼   ► you'll see a thing that says,

01:43:20 ◼   ► moving 10 photos to shared library,

01:43:24 ◼   ► moving 20 photos to shared library,

01:43:25 ◼   ► Moving 30, it's a number that counts up.

01:43:28 ◼   ► It counts up and then eventually it starts counting down.

01:43:31 ◼   ► So it's going to count up to a number

01:43:32 ◼   ► that is close to the number of photos you selected

01:43:34 ◼   ► and then it will count down.

01:43:35 ◼   ► The interesting thing is when you do the move command

01:43:37 ◼   ► from the menu, about three seconds later,

01:43:40 ◼   ► all the pictures that you told to move

01:43:42 ◼   ► disappear from your view.

01:43:44 ◼   ► - Oh, cool.

01:43:45 ◼   ► - They all disappear.

01:43:46 ◼   ► You said to move them, right?

01:43:48 ◼   ► I think they instantly appear in the shared view,

01:43:51 ◼   ► but if you're just looking at the three views you have,

01:43:55 ◼   ► is show me my personal library,

01:43:56 ◼   ► show me my shared library, show me both.

01:43:58 ◼   ► And I'm just in personal library

01:43:59 ◼   ► 'cause I'm winnowing down the personal library

01:44:02 ◼   ► and it will tell you how many photos

01:44:03 ◼   ► are in your personal library.

01:44:04 ◼   ► I'm trying to drain that pool, right?

01:44:06 ◼   ► So they disappear immediately.

01:44:07 ◼   ► After they disappear, at the bottom will be a progress thing

01:44:10 ◼   ► that counts up and then counts back down.

01:44:13 ◼   ► It's pretty fast.

01:44:15 ◼   ► The number tends to go and I think it increments

01:44:17 ◼   ► with like 100 or so every few seconds.

01:44:20 ◼   ► So it's like just go someplace else,

01:44:21 ◼   ► do something and come back.

01:44:23 ◼   ► While I was doing this, I had photos running on my Mac

01:44:25 ◼   ► and I would see how long does it take

01:44:27 ◼   ► between the time they disappear there

01:44:28 ◼   ► and the time they appear on my computer

01:44:29 ◼   ► and that was pretty fast.

01:44:30 ◼   ► It was actually shockingly fast.

01:44:32 ◼   ► Maybe it was just the thumbnails or whatever,

01:44:33 ◼   ► but I had it set to download original.

01:44:34 ◼   ► So I did that over the course of the past few days.

01:44:39 ◼   ► If you look in the Slack channel,

01:44:40 ◼   ► you'll see my end result here,

01:44:43 ◼   ► the graphic that I just put in.

01:44:44 ◼   ► This is the message that appears

01:44:45 ◼   ► on my wife's photos application now

01:44:48 ◼   ► when you launch it and switch to personal library.

01:44:52 ◼   ► Personal library is empty. There are no photos or videos in your personal library

01:44:56 ◼   ► From the little person button in the toolbar change your library view to the shared library to move photos and videos to the personal library

01:45:03 ◼   ► I drained a hundred and fifty five thousand photos and videos out of her personal library and put them into the shared library

01:45:10 ◼   ► And the reason I did this is because as I thought about it

01:45:14 ◼   ► Like I was I did it cautiously in small batches

01:45:17 ◼   ► The biggest batch I did was 30,000 photos.

01:45:19 ◼   ► And honestly, I didn't see much of a difference

01:45:21 ◼   ► between using 30,000 and 10,000.

01:45:23 ◼   ► I didn't have the guts to do any more than that.

01:45:24 ◼   ► I tried to do 50,000 at one point

01:45:26 ◼   ► and told me they were unsaved ones,

01:45:27 ◼   ► and I backed away and went for smaller batches.

01:45:31 ◼   ► The reason I went all in on this

01:45:32 ◼   ► is because I have about 17 complete backups

01:45:35 ◼   ► of this photo library before Ventura

01:45:37 ◼   ► that are all fresh and sitting in drawers and on drives

01:45:40 ◼   ► and in synologies in various places.

01:45:41 ◼   ► And if this hoses my library,

01:45:44 ◼   ► I want to be able to restore from one of those

01:45:47 ◼   ► and not lose anything.

01:45:48 ◼   ► So I need to go all in fast.

01:45:49 ◼   ► I need to fail fast.

01:45:50 ◼   ► 'Cause I don't wanna,

01:45:51 ◼   ► if I did it slowly over the course of months

01:45:53 ◼   ► and slowly move stuff in there,

01:45:54 ◼   ► what I did wanna find out was three months from now,

01:45:56 ◼   ► oh, the library's completely hosed and corrupted,

01:45:58 ◼   ► and you have to restore it from a backup

01:46:00 ◼   ► that's like three months old, right?

01:46:01 ◼   ► Or you've overwritten that backup

01:46:03 ◼   ► with the corrupt venture or backup, you know,

01:46:04 ◼   ► in some cases.

01:46:06 ◼   ► So I'm all in.

01:46:08 ◼   ► I, in my library with the both view,

01:46:10 ◼   ► it says 185,000 photos and videos.

01:46:13 ◼   ► - That's awesome. - And I have to say

01:46:14 ◼   ► that despite the beach balling and everything,

01:46:18 ◼   ► shockingly fast if you count like the amount of minutes

01:46:21 ◼   ► it took to move 155,000 things.

01:46:23 ◼   ► Obviously it's not moving the data.

01:46:25 ◼   ► I know that because for one thing,

01:46:27 ◼   ► I have Google Drive running on my wife's computer

01:46:29 ◼   ► that is uploading images or whatever.

01:46:31 ◼   ► Google Drive didn't make a peep during this.

01:46:33 ◼   ► It did not see any new, any action going on

01:46:36 ◼   ► in the photo library in terms of in the file system.

01:46:39 ◼   ► So this process of moving them as you would expect

01:46:41 ◼   ► is probably just doing a series of update statements

01:46:44 ◼   ► on a SQLite database somewhere, right?

01:46:46 ◼   ► It is not actually moving any photos.

01:46:48 ◼   ► It's probably not moving them in the cloud

01:46:49 ◼   ► on their cloud storage,

01:46:52 ◼   ► and it doesn't seem like it's moving them

01:46:53 ◼   ► on my local disk either.

01:46:54 ◼   ► If it was touching those photos at all in any way,

01:46:58 ◼   ► this would have taken forever.

01:46:59 ◼   ► But I moved the entire library in like probably 24 hours-ish

01:47:04 ◼   ► like casually doing batches of five, 10,

01:47:07 ◼   ► and eventually 20,000,

01:47:08 ◼   ► and they appeared on my computer in my library so fast

01:47:12 ◼   ► it was shocking.

01:47:13 ◼   ► even know how it's doing it.

01:47:14 ◼   ► I don't know if it's downloaded them all yet.

01:47:16 ◼   ► They appear on my phone as well.

01:47:17 ◼   ► So I'm gonna give this feature,

01:47:20 ◼   ► again despite the beach balls and the terrible progress,

01:47:22 ◼   ► all of which are pre-existing conditions,

01:47:24 ◼   ► as they say in the insurance business,

01:47:26 ◼   ► I'm gonna give this a thumbs up.

01:47:27 ◼   ► I think it actually works.

01:47:28 ◼   ► It didn't hose my libraries.

01:47:29 ◼   ► I never got any errors.

01:47:31 ◼   ► There were various points where I had to be very patient,

01:47:33 ◼   ► Casey, and wait much more than five seconds

01:47:36 ◼   ► or five minutes to see anything.

01:47:38 ◼   ► But sometimes it says like saving or whatever

01:47:40 ◼   ► and it would say like uploading 20 photos to iCloud.

01:47:42 ◼   ► It's like, what are you uploading to iCloud?

01:47:44 ◼   ► Just let it be like that.

01:47:46 ◼   ► If you come back 15 minutes later

01:47:47 ◼   ► and it still says uploading 20 photos to iCloud,

01:47:50 ◼   ► just let it sit.

01:47:51 ◼   ► Come back in a half an hour, that message will be gone

01:47:53 ◼   ► and it will say moving 10,957 photos to shared library.

01:47:57 ◼   ► It will eventually, hopefully get the job done.

01:48:00 ◼   ► I have to say, I was surprised at how fast it was.

01:48:02 ◼   ► All the testing that I had done with Ventura

01:48:03 ◼   ► was with toy libraries with like 100 or so photos in it

01:48:06 ◼   ► with fake Apple IDs.

01:48:08 ◼   ► This is my real photo library with my real stuff in it

01:48:11 ◼   ► and it went pretty fast.

01:48:12 ◼   ► And then one of the weird sort of side effects

01:48:16 ◼   ► of having this situation is,

01:48:17 ◼   ► if I switch my wife's view to her personal library,

01:48:21 ◼   ► it has no photos in it.

01:48:22 ◼   ► And because of the way the Photos app works,

01:48:24 ◼   ► like all the albums in the sidebar,

01:48:27 ◼   ► they show you a little thumbnail.

01:48:29 ◼   ► I don't know, like I say,

01:48:30 ◼   ► you have an album with 50 pictures in it.

01:48:32 ◼   ► It picks one of the pictures from the album

01:48:33 ◼   ► and makes that the thumbnail.

01:48:34 ◼   ► I don't know why it does that.

01:48:35 ◼   ► They're so small, you can't see them anyway, right?

01:48:37 ◼   ► But when you switch to personal library

01:48:39 ◼   ► and there's nothing in the personal library,

01:48:41 ◼   ► all of those thumbnails disappear.

01:48:43 ◼   ► And we're like, oh my God, did it erase all my albums?

01:48:46 ◼   ► No, but when you're in personal library view,

01:48:47 ◼   ► if you click on that album, there's nothing in it,

01:48:49 ◼   ► because your view is my personal library only,

01:48:52 ◼   ► and there's nothing in the personal library.

01:48:54 ◼   ► So when you click on any of your albums,

01:48:55 ◼   ► like, oh my God, my albums, they're all empty,

01:48:57 ◼   ► there's nothing in them, it's all gone.

01:48:58 ◼   ► You just switch to show either shared library or both,

01:49:01 ◼   ► and they come back.

01:49:03 ◼   ► And doing that, switching those modes, is very fast,

01:49:06 ◼   ► but it also affects the sidebar,

01:49:09 ◼   ► which I think is super weird.

01:49:11 ◼   ► I know I switched to personal view,

01:49:13 ◼   ► but the fact that it makes the whole sidebar flicker

01:49:15 ◼   ► and change the icons, like,

01:49:16 ◼   ► don't make me think all the photos are gone

01:49:18 ◼   ► just because the right-hand side view is filtered.

01:49:22 ◼   ► You can leave the thumbnails on, everything's fine.

01:49:24 ◼   ► Like, it freaked me out in the beginning.

01:49:26 ◼   ► I actually took screenshots of it.

01:49:27 ◼   ► I'm like, oh, is it changing something?

01:49:28 ◼   ► It's not changing anything, it's just your view of the system.

01:49:30 ◼   ► So again, this is in my wife's library.

01:49:32 ◼   ► The albums are not shared as part of the shared library,

01:49:34 ◼   ► but when logged in as my wife,

01:49:36 ◼   ► I'm just gonna keep it on the both of you, I suppose.

01:49:38 ◼   ► Oh, and the final thing is you have the option of like,

01:49:41 ◼   ► Should it suggest to you when you should add stuff?

01:49:43 ◼   ► You know, if you add things, if you're with somebody else

01:49:46 ◼   ► or if you're at your home, there's a bunch of these options.

01:49:48 ◼   ► Surprisingly, one of the options is not,

01:49:51 ◼   ► as far as I can tell, the option to say,

01:49:53 ◼   ► "Hey, everything I take a picture of with my phone,

01:49:56 ◼   ► "put it in the shared library."

01:49:57 ◼   ► That is not one of the options.

01:49:58 ◼   ► I don't think there's any way to do that,

01:49:59 ◼   ► which is kind of disappointing

01:50:00 ◼   ► 'cause that would be a nice option to have.

01:50:02 ◼   ► But either way, once I found out that wasn't an option,

01:50:04 ◼   ► I said, "I'll just put it on manual."

01:50:05 ◼   ► 'Cause now, what I'll do instead of connecting my phone

01:50:09 ◼   ► on my wife's computer using image capture

01:50:11 ◼   ► to take things off of it

01:50:12 ◼   ► because the photos application cannot handle

01:50:14 ◼   ► how many photos are on my phone.

01:50:15 ◼   ► I have to use image capture like Casey, like an animal.

01:50:18 ◼   ► - Well, slow down, slow down.

01:50:20 ◼   ► That's not what I do.

01:50:21 ◼   ► I used to do that like a year or two ago.

01:50:23 ◼   ► What I do now is I make a temporary bespoke photos library.

01:50:28 ◼   ► You know, I do the like, what is it?

01:50:29 ◼   ► Hold option and double click on the photos icon.

01:50:32 ◼   ► Make a new library, do the import there

01:50:35 ◼   ► and then immediately export to disk.

01:50:39 ◼   ► And then I use image capture just for deletions purposes.

01:50:41 ◼   ► Oh my God.

01:50:42 ◼   ► The only reason I'm using image capture is because the photo has lost the ability

01:50:46 ◼   ► to correctly show the photos on my phone for whatever reason.

01:50:49 ◼   ► So use image capture to pull them.

01:50:50 ◼   ► And the tricky part is knowing I have a smart folder that says like John's phone,

01:50:55 ◼   ► uh, that lets me know what is the last photo I imported from my camera.

01:50:59 ◼   ► Cause that lets me know which ones I have to pull now, right?

01:51:03 ◼   ► Like based on the timestamp and everything, it's not to do any of that anymore.

01:51:06 ◼   ► Now I just go look at my personal library,

01:51:08 ◼   ► and if there's anything in my personal library

01:51:10 ◼   ► that's not in the shared library,

01:51:11 ◼   ► it's just in the personal library view,

01:51:13 ◼   ► I just select the images that I want

01:51:14 ◼   ► and I right click them and say move.

01:51:16 ◼   ► And doing that for batches that are not 10,000

01:51:18 ◼   ► or 30,000 photos is actually pretty fast.

01:51:20 ◼   ► And so that will be my new workflow.

01:51:22 ◼   ► I'll just manually move them over when I need to.

01:51:23 ◼   ► Same thing with my wife's thing.

01:51:24 ◼   ► She has an empty personal library.

01:51:26 ◼   ► As she fills that up,

01:51:27 ◼   ► it's real easy to go to personal library,

01:51:28 ◼   ► select all, right click, move to shared photo library.

01:51:31 ◼   ► Again, doing with sane numbers of photos, really fast.

01:51:35 ◼   ► not, you know, it's hopefully not gonna be a problem.

01:51:38 ◼   ► So that's my plan for the workflow.

01:51:40 ◼   ► I don't have a solution to the deduping situation.

01:51:43 ◼   ► Ideally, you'd be able to do what I used to do with iTunes,

01:51:47 ◼   ► which was never recommended,

01:51:48 ◼   ► but I did it for years and it was fun.

01:51:50 ◼   ► I used to have my iTunes music library

01:51:52 ◼   ► in users shared music, users/shared/music,

01:51:56 ◼   ► 'cause the user shared directory on macOS,

01:51:58 ◼   ► people don't know, is a directory

01:52:00 ◼   ► that comes with default permissions

01:52:01 ◼   ► such that more than one user on the system

01:52:02 ◼   ► can read from it, right?

01:52:04 ◼   ► You have to mess with the permissions to actually make it read-writable by multiple people,

01:52:08 ◼   ► but you can.

01:52:09 ◼   ► You can use group permissions, blah, blah, blah.

01:52:11 ◼   ► And I'd have my whole iTunes library there.

01:52:13 ◼   ► So I could have multiple accounts pointing to the same iTunes library with only one copy

01:52:16 ◼   ► of the music on the disk.

01:52:17 ◼   ► This is back when my music collection was one of the bigger things on my disk, the good

01:52:19 ◼   ► old days.

01:52:20 ◼   ► Probably still true of Marco.

01:52:23 ◼   ► But it would be nice if you could do that with photos, because if I wanted my photo

01:52:27 ◼   ► library to not be optimized storage, but to be downloaded originals, I would have two

01:52:31 ◼   ► copies of every single photo.

01:52:33 ◼   ► and that would be two terabytes of photos instead of one,

01:52:35 ◼   ► and that is not insignificant.

01:52:36 ◼   ► I would love it to be able to tell photos,

01:52:38 ◼   ► "Hey, you know how these photos are the same

01:52:40 ◼   ► in the storage backend, like in the cloud?"

01:52:43 ◼   ► You can make them the same iMac too,

01:52:45 ◼   ► but the permissions model really does not lend itself

01:52:48 ◼   ► a lot of that, and it would be additional complexity,

01:52:49 ◼   ► and I kinda understand why they didn't do it,

01:52:51 ◼   ► especially into version one.

01:52:52 ◼   ► So I'm gonna be all off to my storage over here,

01:52:55 ◼   ► and my wife's count, as always, will be download originals.

01:52:58 ◼   ► - Thanks to our sponsors this week,

01:53:00 ◼   ► Memberful, Collide, and Backblaze,

01:53:03 ◼   ► and thanks to our members who support us directly.

01:53:05 ◼   ► You can join at atp.fm/join,

01:53:08 ◼   ► and don't forget if you join,

01:53:09 ◼   ► you get a 15% off code for our ATP store right now,

01:53:12 ◼   ► so don't forget all that,

01:53:14 ◼   ► and do forget to cancel at the end of it.

01:53:16 ◼   ► Thank you everybody for listening,

01:53:18 ◼   ► and we will talk to you next week.

01:53:20 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

01:53:23 ◼   ► ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:53:25 ◼   ► ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:53:27 ◼   ► ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:53:29 ◼   ► ♪ Accidental ♪

01:53:30 ◼   ► ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:53:32 ◼   ► John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:53:38 ◼   ► 'Cause it was accidental, it was accidental

01:53:43 ◼   ► And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM

01:53:48 ◼   ► And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:53:53 ◼   ► M A R C O A R M

01:54:02 ◼   ► N T Marko R M N S I R

01:54:06 ◼   ► A C U S A Syracuse

01:54:09 ◼   ► It's accidental They didn't mean to

01:54:15 ◼   ► Accidental Tech podcast so long

01:54:22 ◼   ► - All right, we are not going to have the time

01:54:25 ◼   ► to talk about all this ad-related kerfuffle

01:54:27 ◼   ► in the App Store, which we will probably get to next week,

01:54:30 ◼   ► but I did want to briefly talk about--

01:54:32 ◼   ► - The good news, by the way, is that the ad thing

01:54:34 ◼   ► is like on fire right now, and Apple's like issuing

01:54:38 ◼   ► statements and pausing things and everything,

01:54:39 ◼   ► so like, it's good that we're gonna save it for next week,

01:54:42 ◼   ► because by the time next week comes,

01:54:43 ◼   ► it will probably be pretty different,

01:54:45 ◼   ► and until then, you know, we can just kinda

01:54:48 ◼   ► watch the fire burn.

01:54:50 ◼   ► - Yeah, by next week, Elon Musk will own Apple.

01:54:52 ◼   ► Oh God. Can we not? Oh, we're never doing that. Anyway,

01:54:57 ◼   ► uh, join a stern who, whose coverage I really, really tend to like,

01:55:01 ◼   ► uh, did an interview with, uh, Federiki and Joswiak, uh,

01:55:06 ◼   ► I guess in the last 48 ish hours. Um,

01:55:09 ◼   ► and this was posted over at the wall street journal. Uh,

01:55:12 ◼   ► and we'll put a link in the show notes.

01:55:14 ◼   ► The video is something like 35 minutes. Uh,

01:55:16 ◼   ► and other than being extremely quiet, I don't know if you guys noticed that,

01:55:20 ◼   ► but the audio mix is very, very quiet,

01:55:22 ◼   ► which was a little annoying.

01:55:23 ◼   ► - I use voice boost.

01:55:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, imagine that.

01:55:25 ◼   ► No, I thought the interview was okay.

01:55:29 ◼   ► I don't know, even though I really, really like

01:55:32 ◼   ► Joanna Stern a lot, but I don't think she set herself up

01:55:35 ◼   ► for success with some of the things she asked,

01:55:37 ◼   ► because they could clearly be interpreted as,

01:55:41 ◼   ► tell me about what you're gonna do in the future.

01:55:43 ◼   ► Even if that's not what she meant,

01:55:45 ◼   ► it could have been interpreted that way.

01:55:46 ◼   ► And you know, if an Apple executive

01:55:48 ◼   ► could interpret a question as,

01:55:50 ◼   ► "Tell me what you're doing in the future."

01:55:51 ◼   ► They're gonna clam up immediately,

01:55:53 ◼   ► which is exactly what Jaws and Federiki did.

01:55:56 ◼   ► Sometimes I felt like they dodged questions,

01:55:58 ◼   ► actually, oftentimes I felt like they dodged questions

01:56:00 ◼   ► that they really didn't need to dodge.

01:56:02 ◼   ► Like at the end, I think it was the end,

01:56:05 ◼   ► she said something like, "What do you wish,"

01:56:07 ◼   ► I forget exactly what it was,

01:56:07 ◼   ► "but like, what do you wish computers did that they don't?"

01:56:10 ◼   ► And they were like, "Well, that's telling you

01:56:13 ◼   ► about our future plans, me, me, me."

01:56:15 ◼   ► And it was, I don't know, they were kind of being jerks,

01:56:17 ◼   ► I thought. - I think they should have

01:56:17 ◼   ► that one because there's no way they can give an honest answer to that and not reveal future

01:56:22 ◼   ► Apple plans, which I think was the point of the question. I disagree. I think if you look 10, 20,

01:56:27 ◼   ► 30, 40 years out, you can talk about plenty of things that you might want a computer to do.

01:56:31 ◼   ► That is not even a fart in the wind right now. When you're talking to big, big Apple people,

01:56:38 ◼   ► part of it is the experience with these specific big, big Apple people to know what things they'll

01:56:45 ◼   ► answer and what things they want and what things not to waste your time on.

01:56:48 ◼   ► And that only comes from just seeing a million of these interviews, right?

01:56:52 ◼   ► It's still difficult to know on the day.

01:56:54 ◼   ► But the other thing is, talking to these people about anything, literally anything they say

01:56:59 ◼   ► is going to end up in some click-bait-y headline.

01:57:01 ◼   ► I feel for them.

01:57:02 ◼   ► Just look at the headlines that came out of this story.

01:57:04 ◼   ► It is basically impossible for them to, again, an honest answer about 50 years in the future,

01:57:11 ◼   ► I wish my computer would do this fantastical thing that Apple really isn't actually working

01:57:15 ◼   ► on it's not a glimmer in anyone's eye an apple but this is an idea and the stories the next day would

01:57:19 ◼   ► be apple planning on you know holographic cube or like whatever the hell they talk about like

01:57:23 ◼   ► there is no like there is no way to give an honest answer and not get destroyed when with the

01:57:29 ◼   ► ridiculous headlights because they're apple so that's why they're so cagey and cranky because

01:57:34 ◼   ► it's just you know it's kind of like they've just been burned so many times and i think if you look

01:57:39 ◼   ► at what they did in this in this interview the the main complaint that i think you've had case

01:57:42 ◼   ► and other people had is like,

01:57:43 ◼   ► that they didn't seem to answer a lot of questions,

01:57:44 ◼   ► they dodged stuff.

01:57:45 ◼   ► And despite that, there are still ridiculous stories today

01:57:49 ◼   ► that make huge logical leaps

01:57:51 ◼   ► and mischaracterize what was said by the people.

01:57:53 ◼   ► So it's a rough situation for everybody.

01:57:55 ◼   ► It's a rough situation for the interviewer,

01:57:57 ◼   ► and as the interviewee, it's hard to be a good interviewee

01:58:00 ◼   ► when you know, no matter how little you say,

01:58:03 ◼   ► it's gonna get misinterpreted.

01:58:06 ◼   ► - I agree with all of that, but I don't know.

01:58:08 ◼   ► I think if you look at the Gruber interviews,

01:58:12 ◼   ► oftentimes with these same two men,

01:58:14 ◼   ► I think John does a far better job of riding the line

01:58:18 ◼   ► of what are they willing or perhaps even excited to answer,

01:58:22 ◼   ► and what are they just gonna clam up and say, uh-uh.

01:58:24 ◼   ► And I don't think Joanna Stern did

01:58:26 ◼   ► a particularly good job with that.

01:58:27 ◼   ► - Yeah, he's better at it because he has

01:58:28 ◼   ► much more experience, and he knows Apple more,

01:58:31 ◼   ► and has been on the beat for longer.

01:58:33 ◼   ► Like, it's kind of not a fair comparison,

01:58:35 ◼   ► but I think Joanna--

01:58:36 ◼   ► - Well, I would also say that they have very different goals

01:58:39 ◼   ► and very different audiences too.

01:58:40 ◼   ► I mean, it's not like, you know,

01:58:42 ◼   ► Joanna Stern wasn't doing an interview

01:58:44 ◼   ► for Daring Fireball, readers and listeners.

01:58:45 ◼   ► Like, she was doing it for her audience,

01:58:48 ◼   ► which is extremely different over at The Wall Street Journal

01:58:51 ◼   ► compared to our little nerd sphere here.

01:58:52 ◼   ► And I think she has quite a lot of experience in this area,

01:58:56 ◼   ► and I think she knew exactly what she was doing,

01:58:59 ◼   ► but that's the kind of question

01:59:01 ◼   ► that her audience wants her to ask.

01:59:04 ◼   ► - Maybe.

01:59:04 ◼   ► People think they want you to ask that,

01:59:06 ◼   ► but when you see the non-answers that they give,

01:59:08 ◼   ► it's like, was that a constructive use of time?

01:59:09 ◼   ► Like, I think the audience that wants it

01:59:11 ◼   ► is also not satisfied because they didn't get the answers.

01:59:13 ◼   ► Lots of, you know, anytime you watch an interview,

01:59:15 ◼   ► the easiest thing to do as an audience member,

01:59:17 ◼   ► and I do it all the time, especially on subjects

01:59:19 ◼   ► I know a lot about, like Apple, is say,

01:59:20 ◼   ► here's the follow-up question I would have asked

01:59:22 ◼   ► and why didn't you ask it, right?

01:59:24 ◼   ► And there are many instances where that happened.

01:59:27 ◼   ► Like, the one that rang out the strongest for me

01:59:29 ◼   ► was when Avayga was asking Federighi

01:59:32 ◼   ► about app tracking transparency

01:59:34 ◼   ► and how you've hurt your competitors

01:59:36 ◼   ► and now you're doing advertising and whatever.

01:59:39 ◼   ► And Federi gave this long answer that was like,

01:59:42 ◼   ► the reason we do all this privacy stuff,

01:59:45 ◼   ► when my team gets together,

01:59:47 ◼   ► it's the privacy team that is rolling this out.

01:59:50 ◼   ► We're not doing this so we can make more service revenue.

01:59:54 ◼   ► It's a technology team and we are focused on privacy

01:59:57 ◼   ► for its own merits and we have been for years and years.

02:00:00 ◼   ► This is not a new thing.

02:00:03 ◼   ► in this specific project you're talking about,

02:00:05 ◼   ► was run by, initiated by, and brought to completion

02:00:08 ◼   ► by the privacy team that is interested in privacy

02:00:11 ◼   ► for all the altruistic privacy reasons.

02:00:13 ◼   ► So when I, Craig Federighi, read stories at Apple,

02:00:16 ◼   ► the only reason Apple did to up-track in transparency

02:00:18 ◼   ► is to screw Facebook in,

02:00:19 ◼   ► so they can make the money on advertising.

02:00:20 ◼   ► It's ridiculous, 'cause I know that's not true,

02:00:22 ◼   ► 'cause I'm in charge of the software org,

02:00:24 ◼   ► and I know exactly how this feature came to be.

02:00:26 ◼   ► And it sounds like a convincing answer.

02:00:28 ◼   ► You can see his passion saying,

02:00:30 ◼   ► I'm not twisting my mustache,

02:00:32 ◼   ► and saying we're gonna be super evil

02:00:33 ◼   ► and we're gonna go as ad revenue.

02:00:34 ◼   ► This is driven by the privacy team

02:00:36 ◼   ► and we care about privacy.

02:00:37 ◼   ► I 100% believe that, right?

02:00:40 ◼   ► The follow-up question is,

02:00:42 ◼   ► you're the head of software though.

02:00:44 ◼   ► Apple is a big company.

02:00:46 ◼   ► There's a team that's responsible

02:00:48 ◼   ► for running an ad business.

02:00:50 ◼   ► They don't work for you,

02:00:51 ◼   ► but they are in the same company.

02:00:53 ◼   ► And when that part of the company looks at the big picture,

02:00:56 ◼   ► they say, we're doing all this privacy stuff.

02:00:59 ◼   ► You know what?

02:01:00 ◼   ► gives us an advantage in advertising.

02:01:02 ◼   ► You didn't do it to help the advertising people,

02:01:05 ◼   ► but they're part of the same company,

02:01:06 ◼   ► and they sure as heck know what the consequences

02:01:09 ◼   ► are going to be of app tracking transparency,

02:01:12 ◼   ► because it's their job to make money from ads.

02:01:14 ◼   ► And they are also part of Apple.

02:01:17 ◼   ► So when someone says Apple is rubbing their hands together

02:01:20 ◼   ► at Facebook getting screwed,

02:01:21 ◼   ► 'cause now they can make more ad revenue,

02:01:23 ◼   ► no, Craig Federighi and the privacy team,

02:01:25 ◼   ► that's not your motivation,

02:01:26 ◼   ► but there's a whole other part of the company

02:01:28 ◼   ► whose job it is to make money from ads.

02:01:30 ◼   ► And they know and understand

02:01:32 ◼   ► and take advantage of all of this.

02:01:33 ◼   ► So when Federighi gets indignant,

02:01:36 ◼   ► he can get indignant for himself and say,

02:01:38 ◼   ► "Don't blame me, Craig Federighi, for this

02:01:40 ◼   ► "'cause I didn't do a nasty thing."

02:01:42 ◼   ► But it sounds like he's defending Apple

02:01:43 ◼   ► and it's like Apple writ large sure as heck knows

02:01:47 ◼   ► how this is going to impact Facebook

02:01:49 ◼   ► and is capitalizing on it.

02:01:51 ◼   ► And you can't wash your hands of it departmentally

02:01:55 ◼   ► and therefore say, you know,

02:01:57 ◼   ► Again, the follow-up would be more concisely phrased

02:02:01 ◼   ► than that, it was like, okay, that's you,

02:02:02 ◼   ► but what about the advertising team?

02:02:03 ◼   ► What would they say if they were here?

02:02:05 ◼   ► And then you would have said, well, they're not here,

02:02:07 ◼   ► I'm here, and I'm telling you what I think about it.

02:02:09 ◼   ► Then I would say, well, Apple's bigger than just you.

02:02:11 ◼   ► And then we move on to the next question,

02:02:12 ◼   ► which is why interviews are hard.

02:02:13 ◼   ► But anyway, it's very easy to second guess

02:02:16 ◼   ► what people say and what follow-ups they do

02:02:18 ◼   ► and don't provide, but that's just the nature

02:02:20 ◼   ► of armchair quarterbacking.

02:02:21 ◼   ► You're like, I wouldn't have thrown that pass,

02:02:23 ◼   ► or I would have not done a running play in that scenario.

02:02:26 ◼   ► it's easy to say while you sit on the couch eating your chips.

02:02:28 ◼   ► That is true. But in, and I think I'm, um,

02:02:31 ◼   ► I'm selling Joanna short here.

02:02:35 ◼   ► I think her choices of questions were not stellar,

02:02:38 ◼   ► but I still think that, uh,

02:02:40 ◼   ► Federighi and Joswiak stonewalled in at times where I really don't think it was

02:02:45 ◼   ► necessary. And that's just my opinion. But nevertheless,

02:02:48 ◼   ► one of the few times that we actually got something interesting out of them was,

02:02:52 ◼   ► uh, a discussion with regard to, you know,

02:02:55 ◼   ► lightning versus USB-C and in so many words, why are you still bothering?

02:02:59 ◼   ► Why are you still clinging to lightning? Why is this still a thing?

02:03:02 ◼   ► And it was an interesting conversation that lasted, you know,

02:03:06 ◼   ► a couple of minutes long, particularly JAWS doing most of the talking.

02:03:09 ◼   ► And there were a couple of quotes that I wanted to call out from that.

02:03:12 ◼   ► First of all, he said,

02:03:14 ◼   ► the approach would have been better environmentally,

02:03:16 ◼   ► like if we had stuck with lightning or if we can stick with lightning,

02:03:19 ◼   ► and it would be better for our governments not to be so prescriptive,

02:03:22 ◼   ► which I think both of those things are actually true.

02:03:25 ◼   ► Even as someone who would like USB-C on his iPhone,

02:03:28 ◼   ► I think it is probably environmentally better,

02:03:31 ◼   ► potentially environmentally better,

02:03:32 ◼   ► not to have a gazillion billions of lightning cables

02:03:35 ◼   ► suddenly become obsolete.

02:03:37 ◼   ► - But debatable because the environmental advantage

02:03:40 ◼   ► of USB-C is the sharing of infrastructure

02:03:42 ◼   ► between devices that are not Apple devices

02:03:44 ◼   ► and all of the other devices in the world

02:03:46 ◼   ► that are going to USB-C.

02:03:47 ◼   ► So he has some point, but I really don't think

02:03:52 ◼   ► of the environmental angle is why they have stuck

02:03:54 ◼   ► with lightning cables. - Oh, certainly not.

02:03:55 ◼   ► - No, I think that's an excuse, not the reason.

02:03:57 ◼   ► I mean, 'cause the environmental argument,

02:04:00 ◼   ► while there is some merit that like, okay, well,

02:04:03 ◼   ► if they do change over to USB-C,

02:04:05 ◼   ► a whole bunch of lightning cables over the next few years

02:04:07 ◼   ► will go into the trash, that's true.

02:04:09 ◼   ► However, first of all, a large number of them

02:04:11 ◼   ► would have gone to the trash room

02:04:12 ◼   ► at the same time period anyway,

02:04:13 ◼   ► because they are, as Jon said earlier, wear items.

02:04:16 ◼   ► But also, if we project outwards, like, okay,

02:04:19 ◼   ► Well in the next X years, if we don't switch,

02:04:22 ◼   ► that's just more and more and more lightning cables

02:04:25 ◼   ► that are gonna keep being produced, keep being bought,

02:04:28 ◼   ► keep being potentially lost or wasted or whatever.

02:04:31 ◼   ► Whereas if we switch now, then yeah,

02:04:34 ◼   ► it's temporarily painful, but over the long term,

02:04:38 ◼   ► I think it's clearly better to reduce e-waste

02:04:40 ◼   ► and better for the environment to not have

02:04:43 ◼   ► these two ongoing standards go indefinitely into the future.

02:04:46 ◼   ► It's way better and cleaner and more efficient

02:04:49 ◼   ► and lots of different mechanisms to have one type of cable

02:04:52 ◼   ► that you can use for everything,

02:04:54 ◼   ► and ignoring USB-C's many asterisks on that,

02:04:58 ◼   ► but there's one type of cable you can pretty much use

02:05:01 ◼   ► for charging anything at least. (laughs)

02:05:04 ◼   ► Although, you ever have one of those devices

02:05:06 ◼   ► that it has a USB-C hole to accept power,

02:05:10 ◼   ► but it doesn't support USB PD?

02:05:13 ◼   ► And so, it's oftentimes like little cheap things,

02:05:16 ◼   ► And so you have to use one of those like USB A to C cables

02:05:21 ◼   ► and plug it into a USB A charger.

02:05:22 ◼   ► But anyway, of course that exists, right?

02:05:26 ◼   ► But anyway, the environmental angle here

02:05:28 ◼   ► is a good talking point, but it doesn't hold up

02:05:32 ◼   ► to much critical thought and scrutiny.

02:05:34 ◼   ► And I think, again, they are correct.

02:05:36 ◼   ► This is a large installed base,

02:05:39 ◼   ► and those cables are gonna be thrown away in a few years,

02:05:43 ◼   ► but that was gonna happen anyway for most of them,

02:05:46 ◼   ► and also going forward, it's better to rip the bandaid off

02:05:51 ◼   ► now, have that short-term pain now,

02:05:53 ◼   ► because it will make a better future.

02:05:55 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, the shared infrastructure argument,

02:05:57 ◼   ► like, I think you'd have to do the math on that

02:05:59 ◼   ► to figure out how long it would take to make up

02:06:00 ◼   ► for the sudden burst of tractor lightning stuff.

02:06:03 ◼   ► But I mean, to be fair to Joss,

02:06:05 ◼   ► he didn't lean on that too much.

02:06:06 ◼   ► He threw it in as the talking point,

02:06:08 ◼   ► but it's not like he was using that as an excuse.

02:06:09 ◼   ► I mean, he basically made the same arguments

02:06:11 ◼   ► that we made when we've talked about this,

02:06:12 ◼   ► which I still believe is like,

02:06:14 ◼   ► having governments prescribe

02:06:15 ◼   ► the specific technical solution is not something

02:06:17 ◼   ► that has a good history of fostering innovation, let's say.

02:06:21 ◼   ► And in this case, it's kind of Apple's own fault

02:06:24 ◼   ► for coming to this because I still truly believe

02:06:27 ◼   ► that Apple would eventually have either gone to USB-C

02:06:29 ◼   ► or gone to no wires at all on their own,

02:06:33 ◼   ► but the timeline they were doing it on

02:06:35 ◼   ► was not fast enough for the rest of the world.

02:06:36 ◼   ► And so it's, like so many things with Apple,

02:06:39 ◼   ► they were stubborn and took a little bit too long

02:06:42 ◼   ► and ended up triggering an even worse government action

02:06:44 ◼   ► that I don't particularly agree with,

02:06:45 ◼   ► for reasons we discussed on the last show,

02:06:47 ◼   ► but in the end, the world will be a better place

02:06:49 ◼   ► when Apple goes to USB-C and everything,

02:06:51 ◼   ► and Apple, it's your own stupid fault for forcing it.

02:06:53 ◼   ► So, JAWS gave the exact same arguments

02:06:55 ◼   ► that I think we all gave about,

02:06:56 ◼   ► it's not great for the government

02:06:57 ◼   ► to dictate the technical specifics,

02:06:59 ◼   ► and it's clear that Apple does not want

02:07:01 ◼   ► to be told to do this,

02:07:03 ◼   ► and I think one of the most common clickbait headlines

02:07:06 ◼   ► in this is, you know, JAWS,

02:07:09 ◼   ► JAWS says that Apple is going to USB-C,

02:07:12 ◼   ► He confirmed the next iPhone will have USB-C.

02:07:14 ◼   ► He didn't say that at all.

02:07:16 ◼   ► - Nope.

02:07:18 ◼   ► - You don't listen to Apple people.

02:07:19 ◼   ► He said, "Of course we will have to comply."

02:07:21 ◼   ► As we've discussed, there are many ways

02:07:23 ◼   ► that you can comply with that law.

02:07:25 ◼   ► First of all, it doesn't go into effect until 2024

02:07:27 ◼   ► or whatever someone was saying in the chat room

02:07:28 ◼   ► that it went through the final hurdle

02:07:30 ◼   ► so it is really the law of the land.

02:07:32 ◼   ► But as we discussed on a past show,

02:07:34 ◼   ► with the timelines the way they are,

02:07:36 ◼   ► it might be the 2024 iPhone that has these changes in it.

02:07:39 ◼   ► And second of all, you can comply

02:07:41 ◼   ► by just getting rid of lightning

02:07:42 ◼   ► and not replacing it with anything, that's also compliant.

02:07:44 ◼   ► So headlines that confidently declare

02:07:47 ◼   ► that Apple has confirmed that the next iPhone

02:07:50 ◼   ► will have USB-C, assumes facts not in evidence

02:07:54 ◼   ► as they say in court, right?

02:07:56 ◼   ► And I think it probably will have USB-C,

02:07:58 ◼   ► like the timelines look like the iPhone 15-ish or whatever.

02:08:01 ◼   ► Again, thumbs up, USB-C iPhones, we're all for it,

02:08:04 ◼   ► it's good or whatever,

02:08:05 ◼   ► but Apple doesn't like to be forced to do things.

02:08:07 ◼   ► And I don't think either one of them gave up

02:08:10 ◼   ► any information that you know didn't already exist like what are they gonna

02:08:13 ◼   ► say Apple plans to break the law I mean you know that's a common approach in

02:08:18 ◼   ► these days but that's not still not the move that Apple goes to so yeah they're

02:08:23 ◼   ► gonna comply well but I also thought it was interesting Jaws his response which

02:08:28 ◼   ► was in full or I'm sorry with the later on I think she was talking about or

02:08:33 ◼   ► Joanna was asking well when and Jaws said the Europeans are dictating timing

02:08:38 ◼   ► four European customers.

02:08:43 ◼   ► I'm emphasizing this, not he, but there is a reading

02:08:48 ◼   ► of what he said that yes, Europeans will get SIM trays

02:08:53 ◼   ► and USBC, where Americans or other areas of the world

02:08:57 ◼   ► will stick with lightning because tough noogies.

02:09:00 ◼   ► I'm not saying that is what's gonna happen,

02:09:01 ◼   ► but that is a way you could read this conversation.

02:09:04 ◼   ► - There are many ways to comply that do not conform

02:09:08 ◼   ► to the fantastical headline that next year's iPhone

02:09:10 ◼   ► is gonna be USB-C for the entire world.

02:09:12 ◼   ► - Exactly.

02:09:13 ◼   ► I just thought that was fascinating.

02:09:15 ◼   ► The rest of the talk was fine.

02:09:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, for the record,

02:09:18 ◼   ► I think something like that,

02:09:20 ◼   ► they probably wouldn't do an EU version of the iPhone

02:09:25 ◼   ► that had USB-C maybe, or as discussed in a previous episode,

02:09:30 ◼   ► just somehow gets rid of or disables the Lightning port.

02:09:34 ◼   ► (laughing)

02:09:35 ◼   ► I don't think they would do that.

02:09:37 ◼   ► Like I think they would, I think, you know,

02:09:40 ◼   ► Jaws was reflecting the correct attitude

02:09:45 ◼   ► for Apple's thought on this, which is very clearly like

02:09:49 ◼   ► they really don't like being told what to do

02:09:51 ◼   ► by a government with their products.

02:09:53 ◼   ► Like they really don't like that,

02:09:55 ◼   ► and the combination of Apple kind of spitefully,

02:10:00 ◼   ► you know, responding to that kind of thing,

02:10:02 ◼   ► and also Jaws' just personality,

02:10:04 ◼   ► like his built in like attitude,

02:10:06 ◼   ► which I think many people find quite a bit more off-putting

02:10:10 ◼   ► than he would probably like or than Apple would probably

02:10:14 ◼   ► like, but anyway, I think that's just JODs.

02:10:17 ◼   ► And it's also just Apple.

02:10:19 ◼   ► Their attitude towards this is basically screw you.

02:10:24 ◼   ► The same way their attitude towards all the various

02:10:26 ◼   ► app store regulations are going on in different countries

02:10:28 ◼   ► and everything, they don't want to be told what to do

02:10:32 ◼   ► and they're gonna be quite spiteful about it

02:10:35 ◼   ► even if, the whole thing about cutting off your nose,

02:10:38 ◼   ► spite your face, whatever, it's like when a kid

02:10:40 ◼   ► gets mad at you and does something totally against

02:10:43 ◼   ► their own self-interest just because they're mad at you.

02:10:46 ◼   ► That's how Apple responds to being told what to do

02:10:51 ◼   ► in ways they don't appreciate, right?

02:10:53 ◼   ► - I mean, Apple's not being spiteful, though.

02:10:55 ◼   ► They're grumbling about it,

02:10:56 ◼   ► but they are going to do the thing.

02:10:58 ◼   ► And I think, honestly, I think they'll do the simpler thing,

02:11:01 ◼   ► which is just USB-C everywhere.

02:11:02 ◼   ► - Probably.

02:11:03 ◼   ► - If they were doing the spiteful thing,

02:11:05 ◼   ► what they would do is make their phones,

02:11:06 ◼   ► they would do the thing with like leave lightning port

02:11:08 ◼   ► but put a sticker over it.

02:11:09 ◼   ► Like make their phones awkward and worse for everybody

02:11:11 ◼   ► and confusing for the whole world.

02:11:12 ◼   ► Like that would be the spiteful one

02:11:13 ◼   ► 'cause that would hurt Apple, right?

02:11:14 ◼   ► They would be cutting off their iPhone nose

02:11:17 ◼   ► to spite their face, right?

02:11:17 ◼   ► But they are annoyed about it.

02:11:19 ◼   ► And speaking of attitude, Federighi had a,

02:11:22 ◼   ► this is one of my favorite parts that Joanna read

02:11:26 ◼   ► one of the emails that was part of one of the,

02:11:30 ◼   ► probably the Epic case or whatever.

02:11:31 ◼   ► And it was a Federighi email.

02:11:33 ◼   ► It was the email thread where they were discussing

02:11:35 ◼   ► if iMessage and Android made sense.

02:11:37 ◼   ► And Federighi had said something to the effect that,

02:11:39 ◼   ► he said, "I'm worried that if we put iMessage on Android,

02:11:44 ◼   ► "all that's gonna do is remove one more barrier

02:11:47 ◼   ► "to parents getting their kids cheap Android phones."

02:11:51 ◼   ► Right?

02:11:52 ◼   ► That essentially, like we have some amount

02:11:54 ◼   ► of market lock-in with iMessage

02:11:56 ◼   ► because if a family wants to be able to message each other

02:11:58 ◼   ► with a uniform interface with blue bubbles everywhere,

02:12:00 ◼   ► they gotta get their kids iPhones.

02:12:01 ◼   ► If we put iMessage on Android,

02:12:03 ◼   ► isn't that gonna knock that thing down?

02:12:05 ◼   ► And Joanna asked him about that.

02:12:08 ◼   ► And you could see like the,

02:12:11 ◼   ► one of the rare times that you see

02:12:13 ◼   ► the permeable barrier between public C-Fed

02:12:19 ◼   ► and inside Apple C-Fed.

02:12:21 ◼   ► If you look at the emails,

02:12:22 ◼   ► inside Apple C-Fed and inside Apple other people,

02:12:24 ◼   ► they say all the things that we say on these podcasts.

02:12:27 ◼   ► They don't say it in public,

02:12:27 ◼   ► but they say it in their internal emails,

02:12:29 ◼   ► 'cause they're not dumb.

02:12:30 ◼   ► We all know the discussions you have about the pros and cons of iMessage and Android.

02:12:33 ◼   ► What are they?

02:12:34 ◼   ► We'll just say them out loud on a podcast because we don't work for Apple.

02:12:37 ◼   ► But Apple executives never say it in public, but when they talk about it themselves, they

02:12:41 ◼   ► do say it.

02:12:42 ◼   ► So here's an obvious point made by executive inside, but because this is outside CFET and

02:12:45 ◼   ► he is in a public interview, he didn't really address the substance of that thing.

02:12:51 ◼   ► Like hey, here's an email that shows that you know that iMessage is a lock-in and that

02:12:55 ◼   ► you're saying one of the cons for us

02:12:58 ◼   ► putting iMessage on Android is that it'll reduce that lock-in.

02:13:01 ◼   ► Instead, he just had a question that was like,

02:13:02 ◼   ► oh, we didn't feel like Apple could do anything great

02:13:04 ◼   ► in the Android space, basically saying that we were,

02:13:05 ◼   ► we didn't think we could, we're in a position

02:13:08 ◼   ► to be as big as WhatsApp, and if we can't do that,

02:13:10 ◼   ► there's only really downsides.

02:13:11 ◼   ► But he never really addressed this specific point

02:13:14 ◼   ► of part of the reason Apple does what it does

02:13:17 ◼   ► is because iMessage is a form of lock-in.

02:13:19 ◼   ► Everybody knows that.

02:13:20 ◼   ► It's an obvious thing.

02:13:20 ◼   ► It's not like, oh, Apple admits.

02:13:22 ◼   ► Like, everybody knows it's lock-in.

02:13:24 ◼   ► It's obvious to anybody who knows anything about technology market, but still Apple executives with their friendly face on will not acknowledge

02:13:31 ◼   ► The obvious truth that we all know because they know we know and I know they know and it's like it's you know

02:13:35 ◼   ► It's the unspoken thing

02:13:37 ◼   ► Joanna tried to make him speak it and he wouldn't he would just say

02:13:40 ◼   ► We didn't feel like we could and he said it in a roundabout way

02:13:43 ◼   ► We didn't feel like we could essentially become the dominant messaging platform in any market

02:13:47 ◼   ► And so therefore that upside didn't exist and then there are all these downsides one of which you read

02:13:52 ◼   ► He didn't even really say that so I give her kudos for

02:13:56 ◼   ► Trying to get him to address that because most of the time she fed will be honest and give his real opinion

02:14:01 ◼   ► But here you could totally see him cordoning off the part of his brain that he employs to do basic

02:14:06 ◼   ► Strategic analysis of the competitive landscape inside Apple that part is not allowed out when he's doing a public interview for the Wall Street Journal

02:14:13 ◼   ► It's worth it's probably worth half an hour of your time, but I wish I wish it was different

02:14:20 ◼   ► But what are you gonna do?

02:14:21 ◼   ► -I think Craig needs a haircut too.

02:14:23 ◼   ► -Don't we all?

02:14:25 ◼   ► [BEEPING]