ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► So I almost didn't make the show tonight.

00:00:03 ◼   ► - Oh no, stuck on the sand?

00:00:05 ◼   ► - No, because you forgot to fill up with gas.

00:00:07 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:00:09 ◼   ► - No, although I'll tell you one thing, man,

00:00:10 ◼   ► driving on the sand uses a lot of gas.

00:00:13 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's kind of like running on the sand.

00:00:16 ◼   ► - Yeah, and you know, 'cause like, you know,

00:00:17 ◼   ► A, I'm running on low tire pressure, right,

00:00:19 ◼   ► and then driving on sand is like, you know,

00:00:22 ◼   ► walking through maple syrup.

00:00:24 ◼   ► Like, you know, it's just,

00:00:25 ◼   ► it's a very inefficient way to move.

00:00:28 ◼   ► And so, yeah, I mean, that's,

00:00:30 ◼   ► I think my living here,

00:00:33 ◼   ► especially in a house that generates

00:00:35 ◼   ► a very large quantity of solar power

00:00:37 ◼   ► and not going to work every day,

00:00:39 ◼   ► I think overall my carbon footprint is probably not too bad,

00:00:44 ◼   ► but certainly when I do have to drive here,

00:00:48 ◼   ► oh my God, it's embarrassing.

00:00:53 ◼   ► You know, we recorded at 8 p.m.

00:00:56 ◼   ► At about 6.30 p.m., my son started a project

00:01:00 ◼   ► that required having to print things to a printer.

00:01:04 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:01:05 ◼   ► - Oh no.

00:01:06 ◼   ► - Everything that could have gone wrong did go wrong

00:01:09 ◼   ► along this process, so, you know,

00:01:12 ◼   ► first of all, we started out, oh, it's out of paper.

00:01:14 ◼   ► All right, go get paper.

00:01:15 ◼   ► And this is like, you know, because, like, okay.

00:01:19 ◼   ► This house was designed to be a summer house.

00:01:22 ◼   ► And so we don't have large storage, large closets.

00:01:27 ◼   ► My office here is very small.

00:01:31 ◼   ► And where this printer is is on a shelf in a closet.

00:01:36 ◼   ► The water shelf, well the one below the water shelf.

00:01:38 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:01:39 ◼   ► So it's-- - You got some nice

00:01:41 ◼   ► damp stacks of paper right next to it.

00:01:43 ◼   ► - Yeah, exactly, no actually it's the same shelf, yeah.

00:01:44 ◼   ► So getting to like the paper trays

00:01:47 ◼   ► and it's an ordeal with this printer.

00:01:49 ◼   ► You have to like, you know, take it out of the shelf it's on.

00:01:52 ◼   ► Oh, and the whole time to reach it,

00:01:53 ◼   ► you're like on a step stool anyway, like, you know.

00:01:56 ◼   ► So it's a whole thing.

00:01:58 ◼   ► - Stop putting electronics in closets.

00:01:59 ◼   ► Can we just stop that?

00:02:01 ◼   ► That should have stopped as soon as devices

00:02:02 ◼   ► required active cooling.

00:02:03 ◼   ► - We hardly ever use, it's an Epson all-in-one ink

00:02:07 ◼   ► whatever printer, it's an inkjet,

00:02:08 ◼   ► it's hardly ever even on.

00:02:10 ◼   ► So, okay, so number one to use this printer.

00:02:12 ◼   ► I have to pull out the step stool from the closet

00:02:14 ◼   ► that it's in, step up and turn it on.

00:02:17 ◼   ► Wait for it to make all of its noises.

00:02:18 ◼   ► Why not just leave it on?

00:02:20 ◼   ► - 'Cause if you leave Epson printers on all the time,

00:02:22 ◼   ► they keep their ink heads warm, allegedly,

00:02:24 ◼   ► and it basically makes them permaclog in less time.

00:02:28 ◼   ► If you have an Epson printer,

00:02:29 ◼   ► you will probably know that over time,

00:02:31 ◼   ► eventually, it gets so,

00:02:32 ◼   ► like the head gets so clogged or otherwise messed up

00:02:36 ◼   ► that you, like, that no cleaning cycle will fix it

00:02:38 ◼   ► and you have to replace the printer.

00:02:40 ◼   ► So I've learned a long time ago

00:02:42 ◼   ► that if you don't leave it powered on,

00:02:44 ◼   ► with Epson in particular,

00:02:46 ◼   ► you can make the printer last way longer

00:02:48 ◼   ► because it apparently lengthens that process.

00:02:50 ◼   ► So anyway, so we start printing,

00:02:53 ◼   ► get the stepladder out, turn the printer on.

00:02:55 ◼   ► Oh, no paper, oh, gotta get paper.

00:02:57 ◼   ► Oh, it's special photo paper.

00:02:58 ◼   ► Well, the photo paper package we have is empty.

00:03:00 ◼   ► We have to open a new package of photo paper,

00:03:02 ◼   ► find that, this whole thing.

00:03:04 ◼   ► First couple prints go through.

00:03:06 ◼   ► At one point, oh, out of ink.

00:03:08 ◼   ► All right, go get the box of spare ink.

00:03:11 ◼   ► Now again, a printer that lives in a shelf

00:03:15 ◼   ► replacing the ink on it.

00:03:16 ◼   ► You gotta like pull it out, like it's a whole thing.

00:03:19 ◼   ► - It shouldn't be in a closet.

00:03:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, seriously, I think the shelf here

00:03:22 ◼   ► might be the crux of the issue.

00:03:23 ◼   ► - There's nowhere else to put it.

00:03:25 ◼   ► So eventually, you know, I replace all of the colors

00:03:31 ◼   ► 'cause one was out and this is the kind of printer

00:03:33 ◼   ► that if it thinks the ink is out,

00:03:35 ◼   ► which I know it's really not,

00:03:36 ◼   ► it's just based on page count or whatever,

00:03:37 ◼   ► but if it thinks the ink is out,

00:03:39 ◼   ► this printer will not print anything except black and white.

00:03:42 ◼   ► And these were printing photos,

00:03:43 ◼   ► so it's like, okay, that's not gonna work.

00:03:45 ◼   ► So replace all the cartridge, fine, get it back in there.

00:03:48 ◼   ► Print a couple more.

00:03:49 ◼   ► Then it starts complaining, hey, paper's not in tray one.

00:03:54 ◼   ► Well, yeah, I know it's in tray two,

00:03:57 ◼   ► but there's no option to tell it,

00:03:58 ◼   ► like, just load it from tray two.

00:04:01 ◼   ► All you can do is either put paper in tray one,

00:04:04 ◼   ► which is the CD printing tray, so you can't,

00:04:09 ◼   ► or cancel the print job.

00:04:11 ◼   ► Okay, so go through, all right, try this, try this setting.

00:04:14 ◼   ► Oh, and he's printing it from an iPad.

00:04:15 ◼   ► So good, find out is there something wrong there?

00:04:18 ◼   ► Reboot everything.

00:04:19 ◼   ► I even rebooted the router.

00:04:21 ◼   ► Like just reboot everything trying to get it to say,

00:04:23 ◼   ► it just would not draw from tray two no matter what I did.

00:04:26 ◼   ► Finally, we got it to print to tray two

00:04:29 ◼   ► and it comes out and it's tiny.

00:04:31 ◼   ► It's pretty tiny now.

00:04:33 ◼   ► Oh my God.

00:04:35 ◼   ► Eventually it took another like, you know,

00:04:36 ◼   ► half hour of troubleshooting and four or five, you know,

00:04:40 ◼   ► wrong prints that are now just garbage

00:04:43 ◼   ► before we finally realized that somewhere deep

00:04:44 ◼   ► in the setting, something had turned to four by six

00:04:47 ◼   ► size paper instead of letter size.

00:04:49 ◼   ► It just, it took so long.

00:04:52 ◼   ► It's like, printers, I hate printers so much.

00:04:55 ◼   ► This is why my giant HP tank that I have,

00:04:59 ◼   ► - Yes, yes, yes, yes.

00:05:00 ◼   ► - It's the only printer that's ever never let me down.

00:05:03 ◼   ► - Would it have been faster for you to print

00:05:05 ◼   ► to the other house and then drive and go get it?

00:05:07 ◼   ► - Maybe.

00:05:07 ◼   ► - By the time you got there, it would already be out.

00:05:09 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, it's a two hour drive,

00:05:11 ◼   ► but it might have been faster.

00:05:13 ◼   ► - So why is it an inkjet printer and not a color laser?

00:05:18 ◼   ► I thought you were at least a black and white laser fan,

00:05:21 ◼   ► hence the refrigerator printer at home,

00:05:23 ◼   ► but I thought you also enjoyed a color laser, no?

00:05:25 ◼   ► - I have both.

00:05:27 ◼   ► - Why would you use inkjet for anything in modern society?

00:05:30 ◼   ► - Inkjet printers are way better at photos

00:05:34 ◼   ► than even very good color lasers.

00:05:37 ◼   ► That's why, it's purely for photos.

00:05:39 ◼   ► - You bring that to like Costco or something,

00:05:41 ◼   ► or like you can't bring them to Costco anymore

00:05:42 ◼   ► 'cause Costco photo center closed,

00:05:44 ◼   ► but you like have Costco print them

00:05:45 ◼   ► and mail them to you or whatever.

00:05:47 ◼   ► It's not that expensive.

00:05:47 ◼   ► - Yeah, see also the living on the island situation.

00:05:49 ◼   ► This is a good place to have like a little print shop

00:05:52 ◼   ► in your house basically.

00:05:53 ◼   ► - Basically past Marco made a bunch of really dubious choices

00:05:56 ◼   ► and today Marco really paid the price.

00:05:59 ◼   ► - For photo printing you can just send away

00:06:01 ◼   ► and get real prints from someplace nice

00:06:04 ◼   ► and even on the island you can get those.

00:06:07 ◼   ► But yeah, if you need a thing for a school assignment

00:06:09 ◼   ► tomorrow you gotta print it in your house.

00:06:11 ◼   ► - Well yeah, it's that kind of thing where

00:06:14 ◼   ► this is why living here you kinda have to,

00:06:18 ◼   ► because there's the situation with the ferries

00:06:21 ◼   ► in the summer that you might need something

00:06:24 ◼   ► that's past the last ferry departure time or something.

00:06:26 ◼   ► And so you kinda have to be a little more self-sufficient

00:06:29 ◼   ► here than you would in most places

00:06:30 ◼   ► 'cause you can't just drive over to a Walmart real quick

00:06:33 ◼   ► and get what you need at all times of day.

00:06:35 ◼   ► It's more involved in that.

00:06:37 ◼   ► And so I have to be my own bike mechanic, for instance.

00:06:40 ◼   ► I've learned how to do all sorts of crazy maintenance

00:06:43 ◼   ► and upgrades and stuff on bikes because I had to,

00:06:46 ◼   ► because there's no one around.

00:06:48 ◼   ► Tiff has learned how to do certain plumbing operations

00:06:51 ◼   ► herself because she had to, because there was no one around.

00:06:55 ◼   ► It's an interesting place.

00:06:57 ◼   ► You kind of have to be independent in a lot of ways.

00:07:00 ◼   ► And one of those ways for us is we keep both kinds of printers,

00:07:04 ◼   ► because printing photos on color lasers sucks.

00:07:06 ◼   ► and I love lasers for anything else that isn't a photo.

00:07:10 ◼   ► They're way better for anything else,

00:07:12 ◼   ► but for photos, they are terrible.

00:07:13 ◼   ► - So Adam was printing photos?

00:07:16 ◼   ► - Yes, specifically he was printing art

00:07:19 ◼   ► that he drew in Procreate on the iPad for a school project.

00:07:23 ◼   ► It's a whole thing, but he was printing

00:07:26 ◼   ► like color illustrations he made.

00:07:27 ◼   ► - With utmost respect to both you and your child,

00:07:32 ◼   ► perhaps in this one scenario,

00:07:35 ◼   ► It might have been simpler and easier to simply print

00:07:37 ◼   ► on the color laser printer and be done with it.

00:07:39 ◼   ► - No, but these had to look nice.

00:07:41 ◼   ► It's for a thing.

00:07:42 ◼   ► They had to look, so I have like the glossy photo paper,

00:07:46 ◼   ► the Epson paper and the Epson printer,

00:07:48 ◼   ► like you know, all that stuff.

00:07:49 ◼   ► And you know, if you want like a nice glossy bright photo,

00:07:51 ◼   ► you're never getting out of a laser.

00:07:53 ◼   ► You just can't, like the way toner works,

00:07:54 ◼   ► it just doesn't work that way.

00:07:56 ◼   ► - Mm-hmm, all right, all right, all right, all out.

00:07:59 ◼   ► Yeah, well I'm glad you made the show.

00:08:00 ◼   ► That would have been quite funny.

00:08:02 ◼   ► Oh, I can't make the show.

00:08:03 ◼   ► Oh no, what's wrong?

00:08:04 ◼   ► Who's sick?

00:08:05 ◼   ► Well, printers. That's what happened.

00:08:08 ◼   ► Printers can make any 10-minute project take three hours.

00:08:11 ◼   ► That's what it means.

00:08:14 ◼   ► We need the OLED TV revolution but for printers

00:08:17 ◼   ► because all these things with physical realities

00:08:20 ◼   ► we're kind of like in the dark ages with printers still.

00:08:22 ◼   ► There is no printer technology that is just clearly better and more reliable.

00:08:26 ◼   ► I guess more like the LCD resolution.

00:08:29 ◼   ► When LCDs took over all displays, we found a display technology that's flat,

00:08:32 ◼   ► flat, low power, looks good, you know, setting aside the OLED debate, just plain old high-quality

00:08:37 ◼   ► LED backlit LCDs were such a revolution that kind of made screens not be made screens ubiquitous,

00:08:44 ◼   ► and you know, and basically work to do their job. And we don't have that with printers, we just have

00:08:49 ◼   ► pick a crappy technology from ages ago, depending on what trade offs you can handle and, and then

00:08:54 ◼   ► connect crappy electronics to all of them. Yeah, and and and take all of the profit margin out of

00:09:00 ◼   ► of it basically and so you have these mechanically,

00:09:05 ◼   ► so I think this is why,

00:09:06 ◼   ► this is mechanically very complicated.

00:09:09 ◼   ► There is no way to make a printer

00:09:10 ◼   ► that is not mechanically complicated

00:09:12 ◼   ► and that's the kind of thing that's very difficult

00:09:14 ◼   ► to make good and reliable and also super, super cheap.

00:09:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, there was one technology

00:09:19 ◼   ► that was mechanically not as complicated,

00:09:21 ◼   ► it was just crappy I think.

00:09:22 ◼   ► It was one of the past technologies,

00:09:24 ◼   ► instead of having a print head essentially,

00:09:27 ◼   ► well and laser printers do this too,

00:09:29 ◼   ► but laser printers--

00:09:29 ◼   ► Well, the LED ones, the OkiData LED ones,

00:09:33 ◼   ► they were kind of cool.

00:09:34 ◼   ► - But that's not up to modern standards.

00:09:36 ◼   ► Like, we need the LCD screen resolution,

00:09:38 ◼   ► something that with very few or no moving parts

00:09:40 ◼   ► that prints high resolution, in color,

00:09:43 ◼   ► that doesn't bleed when you get the paper wet,

00:09:44 ◼   ► that looks good, glossy, like, that doesn't exist yet.

00:09:47 ◼   ► But someday, once that happens,

00:09:49 ◼   ► I feel like we'll finally cross printers off the list

00:09:52 ◼   ► of technology that always sucks,

00:09:54 ◼   ► 'cause it always sucks for reasons that are explicable,

00:09:57 ◼   ► like, because printing is complicated,

00:09:59 ◼   ► And because the business model is basically

00:10:01 ◼   ► make the cheapest thing and then get people

00:10:03 ◼   ► to buy your printer ink or whatever.

00:10:05 ◼   ► But with the right technology, we can get there.

00:10:09 ◼   ► Kind of like a fusion for energy.

00:10:11 ◼   ► We have two big projects.

00:10:12 ◼   ► One, breakeven fusion for energy--

00:10:15 ◼   ► better than breakeven fusion for energy production

00:10:17 ◼   ► to save the planet, and also printers.

00:10:20 ◼   ► It's funny.

00:10:22 ◼   ► You've got all these tech bros who start all these companies.

00:10:25 ◼   ► We're going to change the world.

00:10:27 ◼   ► None of them try to change the world for printers.

00:10:30 ◼   ► You can have your startups like,

00:10:31 ◼   ► we're gonna connect people's social graph

00:10:33 ◼   ► to their self-driving cars.

00:10:35 ◼   ► I don't care.

00:10:36 ◼   ► Fix printers, now I'm impressed.

00:10:37 ◼   ► - How about you put a camera in my toaster oven

00:10:39 ◼   ► so you can tell how brown the bread is?

00:10:41 ◼   ► - Yeah, right, right.

00:10:42 ◼   ► - Right, well that's, didn't the June oven do that?

00:10:44 ◼   ► - Yes, there's a whole class of products that do that now.

00:10:46 ◼   ► It's not just one.

00:10:47 ◼   ► - Still didn't fix printers.

00:10:49 ◼   ► - Yeah, you know, and I was listening

00:10:50 ◼   ► to the most recent upgrade, which we're gonna talk about,

00:10:52 ◼   ► or at least make passing reference to later,

00:10:54 ◼   ► and I was listening to you and Jason talk about

00:10:58 ◼   ► good products and the Breville,

00:11:00 ◼   ► and Breville is basically,

00:11:01 ◼   ► let's give a modicum of a crap about how our products are,

00:11:06 ◼   ► and that puts them light years ahead of everyone else,

00:11:09 ◼   ► and I feel like we need the Breville of printers.

00:11:11 ◼   ► Just care just the tiniest bit,

00:11:14 ◼   ► just the tiniest littlest bit,

00:11:16 ◼   ► care that much and we'll all love you.

00:11:18 ◼   ► - No, that's, 'cause like, that is such a thing,

00:11:20 ◼   ► like there are so many product categories now

00:11:22 ◼   ► where due to various globalization, market pressures,

00:11:26 ◼   ► whatever, consolidation, whatever it is,

00:11:28 ◼   ► due to lots of reasonable conditions that,

00:11:31 ◼   ► there's reasons why they are this way,

00:11:33 ◼   ► the entire category of product just sucks.

00:11:36 ◼   ► All the quality's been drained out of it,

00:11:39 ◼   ► and it's like, you can't get something good at any price

00:11:42 ◼   ► in a lot of categories.

00:11:44 ◼   ► And I think printers are not,

00:11:47 ◼   ► I wouldn't say they're all necessarily there,

00:11:49 ◼   ► but certainly what we're trying to do here

00:11:52 ◼   ► is get something that is super reliable

00:11:54 ◼   ► and also solves many different needs.

00:11:57 ◼   ► If you have just a basic laser printer,

00:12:00 ◼   ► especially black and white lasers,

00:12:02 ◼   ► they are so fast and simple.

00:12:05 ◼   ► But once you start involving either ink or dye,

00:12:09 ◼   ► like in the case of DyeSub,

00:12:10 ◼   ► or even, I once had a solid wax printer, that was fun.

00:12:12 ◼   ► The Xerox Phaser.

00:12:15 ◼   ► - The other thing that was the same problem

00:12:15 ◼   ► with inkjet though is that wax can melt.

00:12:17 ◼   ► That's how they get it out of the paper.

00:12:19 ◼   ► - Yeah, the wax was the worst of both worlds.

00:12:21 ◼   ► It was the dull photos of color lasers,

00:12:24 ◼   ► but with the non-permanence of ink.

00:12:26 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:12:28 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't know, that was not a good printer.

00:12:31 ◼   ► I didn't have it for very long.

00:12:32 ◼   ► It was not very good.

00:12:33 ◼   ► - I mean, you might say that the solution is,

00:12:35 ◼   ► you know, in the future, you know,

00:12:37 ◼   ► your child's assignment won't ever need to be printed

00:12:39 ◼   ► because it'll just be communicated electronically

00:12:41 ◼   ► to the teacher for display, but yeah, we're not there yet.

00:12:44 ◼   ► - Well, and I think that's ultimately, that's the problem.

00:12:47 ◼   ► Like, the reason, like, who would innovate

00:12:50 ◼   ► in the printer business today.

00:12:51 ◼   ► There's no growth in that category.

00:12:53 ◼   ► Who is using printers anymore except me?

00:12:55 ◼   ► Using a printer is like carrying around cash.

00:12:59 ◼   ► Where I do it, and in my life it seems

00:13:02 ◼   ► very necessary very frequently,

00:13:04 ◼   ► but when you talk to anybody under the age of 30,

00:13:06 ◼   ► like, what are you talking about?

00:13:08 ◼   ► You never need that.

00:13:09 ◼   ► And I'm like, well, I kind of frequently need these things,

00:13:12 ◼   ► but they're like, no, no one needs it.

00:13:14 ◼   ► And I've never even touched cash.

00:13:16 ◼   ► You know, it's like, and you get a lot of that

00:13:18 ◼   ► with printers too.

00:13:19 ◼   ► "Why would you have a printer?

00:13:20 ◼   ► "That's so antiquated, you might as well

00:13:21 ◼   ► "have a fax machine."

00:13:22 ◼   ► It's like, no, there's lots of reasons, but you know.

00:13:26 ◼   ► What are you gonna do?

00:13:27 ◼   ► The youths these days.

00:13:28 ◼   ► - The youths, what are we gonna do with them?

00:13:30 ◼   ► I don't know, I feel like I agree with what you're saying,

00:13:33 ◼   ► that printers are to some degree a dying breed,

00:13:36 ◼   ► but with that said, you would make money hand over fist.

00:13:39 ◼   ► Like you could charge $11 billion for a printer

00:13:42 ◼   ► that was reliable and worked every time

00:13:44 ◼   ► and the ink lasted more than four minutes.

00:13:46 ◼   ► Like, there are advantages, that's all I'm gonna say.

00:13:49 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

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00:14:00 ◼   ► So first of all, cloud backup as a concept

00:14:02 ◼   ► is something you really should have in your life

00:14:04 ◼   ► because if anything happens to your computer,

00:14:07 ◼   ► your office, your house, and any hard drives

00:14:10 ◼   ► or whatever that are attached to it,

00:14:11 ◼   ► if that's your only backup, you're out of luck.

00:14:14 ◼   ► And that can be lots of things, you know,

00:14:15 ◼   ► fire, flood, theft, lightning strikes, whatever.

00:14:18 ◼   ► And so Cloud Backup is great for peace of mind like that,

00:14:20 ◼   ► but then it can also offer incredible utility

00:14:23 ◼   ► above the peace of mind.

00:14:24 ◼   ► So for instance, if you're out somewhere,

00:14:26 ◼   ► you can just log into Backblaze and have access

00:14:29 ◼   ► to all of your files from your home computer.

00:14:32 ◼   ► So whether you're on your phone if you're out somewhere,

00:14:34 ◼   ► and you're, oh, I gotta look up that document

00:14:36 ◼   ► that I have on my desktop at home,

00:14:39 ◼   ► you can do that right from the Backblaze app on your phone.

00:14:41 ◼   ► Or if you're, say you're on vacation,

00:14:44 ◼   ► you have a laptop or something,

00:14:45 ◼   ► and you wanna download files off your home computer,

00:14:47 ◼   ► You can do that again from Backblaze.

00:14:49 ◼   ► You can pull whatever files you want right off.

00:14:51 ◼   ► And of course you can restore larger ones.

00:14:53 ◼   ► So if you actually have data loss,

00:14:55 ◼   ► you can restore your files from the web interface,

00:14:57 ◼   ► or if you have like a huge amount of data to recover,

00:15:00 ◼   ► you can have them mail you a hard drive or a flash key

00:15:03 ◼   ► with all your data right to your door.

00:15:06 ◼   ► And if you return it, you get a refund on the cost of it.

00:15:08 ◼   ► So it's just an incredible service at Backblaze.

00:15:10 ◼   ► You even have other features too, like version history.

00:15:13 ◼   ► And in fact, for an extra $2 a month,

00:15:15 ◼   ► you can increase your retention history to a year.

00:15:17 ◼   ► So I love Backblaze, it's a great backup service

00:15:20 ◼   ► for not only peace of mind,

00:15:21 ◼   ► but just really useful features as well.

00:15:24 ◼   ► See for yourself at backblaze.com/atp.

00:15:27 ◼   ► You can start a free trial there for 15 days

00:15:31 ◼   ► with no credit card required.

00:15:32 ◼   ► You can see how the whole thing works,

00:15:34 ◼   ► see if it works for you.

00:15:35 ◼   ► Backblaze.com/atp.

00:15:38 ◼   ► Go there now, get going.

00:15:40 ◼   ► Don't delay this until it's too late and you lose something.

00:15:43 ◼   ► Go get Backblaze today.

00:15:44 ◼   ► backblaze.com/atp.

00:15:47 ◼   ► Go there right now, you won't be sorry.

00:15:49 ◼   ► Thank you so much to Backblaze

00:15:50 ◼   ► for being an awesome backup service

00:15:52 ◼   ► and for sponsoring our show.

00:15:53 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

00:15:56 ◼   ► One of you put in here Mastodon instances

00:15:59 ◼   ► and an FYI that I'm not really sure

00:16:01 ◼   ► why we need to share this,

00:16:02 ◼   ► but somebody wanted to let you know, probably Jon,

00:16:05 ◼   ► that you don't need to be in the same instance

00:16:07 ◼   ► as someone in order to follow them or reply to them.

00:16:09 ◼   ► - I kept getting people asking me on Twitter mostly,

00:16:13 ◼   ► I heard you guys talk about Mastodon,

00:16:14 ◼   ► I really wanna try it, but mastodon.social says

00:16:17 ◼   ► they're not taking signups, so I guess I can't do it.

00:16:19 ◼   ► You don't need to be on mastodon.social.

00:16:22 ◼   ► I think I've got like seven people

00:16:24 ◼   ► who asked that same question.

00:16:25 ◼   ► You do not need to be on mastodon.social.

00:16:27 ◼   ► You can be on any, now this gets to our problem.

00:16:29 ◼   ► The next question is always, okay,

00:16:31 ◼   ► what instance should I use?

00:16:32 ◼   ► And what I have to say is, I don't know.

00:16:34 ◼   ► I just want people to know, if you pick an instance,

00:16:37 ◼   ► one, it's not the end of the world,

00:16:38 ◼   ► because you can always move to another instance, right?

00:16:41 ◼   ► And two, you do not need to be on the same instance

00:16:44 ◼   ► as people that you follow.

00:16:45 ◼   ► Like that's the point of federation.

00:16:46 ◼   ► And maybe we haven't made that point strongly enough.

00:16:49 ◼   ► Mastodon does not equal equal, as Merlin would say,

00:16:52 ◼   ► mastodon.social.

00:16:53 ◼   ► You can basically pick any instance.

00:16:55 ◼   ► And if you go to any kind of Mastodon thing,

00:16:57 ◼   ► it will show you a list of instances

00:16:59 ◼   ► and how do you pick among them?

00:17:00 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:17:01 ◼   ► Find one where somebody you know is, right?

00:17:04 ◼   ► I mean, I guess that's how people are finding out

00:17:06 ◼   ► about Mastodon.social because that's where we are.

00:17:08 ◼   ► But you don't have to be where we are.

00:17:09 ◼   ► All the people I follow aren't on the same instance as me.

00:17:12 ◼   ► That's the point of federation.

00:17:13 ◼   ► So don't feel like it's that big a deal.

00:17:15 ◼   ► Yes, this is a weakness of mass that we talked about it.

00:17:17 ◼   ► Every time we bring it up, how do I pick an instance?

00:17:20 ◼   ► I'm just kind of guessing, what if I pick the wrong instance?

00:17:24 ◼   ► It's a problem.

00:17:25 ◼   ► And I don't know what the solution is.

00:17:26 ◼   ► But at least it's not a dire problem.

00:17:28 ◼   ► Because if you do pick wrong or whatever,

00:17:30 ◼   ► you can switch instances.

00:17:31 ◼   ► Or you could be like me and get an account

00:17:33 ◼   ► on 50 different instances and use that as your hedge.

00:17:35 ◼   ► But don't worry if you're not on the same instance

00:17:38 ◼   ► as the host of your favorite podcast

00:17:41 ◼   ► because you will be able to follow them

00:17:42 ◼   ► no matter where you are,

00:17:43 ◼   ► unless you're on a server full of Nazis

00:17:46 ◼   ► that got defaturated, so don't pick those instances,

00:17:48 ◼   ► but other than that, you should be fine.

00:17:50 ◼   ► - There's multiple reasons.

00:17:52 ◼   ► Yeah, and overall, I would say,

00:17:54 ◼   ► every time I keep going back to,

00:17:56 ◼   ► what's the Masto, the good Friend Finder one,

00:17:59 ◼   ► what's it called?

00:18:00 ◼   ► - Move to Dawn.

00:18:00 ◼   ► - Move to Dawn, that's it, yeah.

00:18:01 ◼   ► I keep going back to Move to Dawn every couple of days.

00:18:04 ◼   ► I have the tab open on my phone in Safari,

00:18:06 ◼   ► and I just go back every couple days and refresh it,

00:18:08 ◼   ► and there's a few more people there.

00:18:09 ◼   ► And it's happening.

00:18:11 ◼   ► People are really moving there in large numbers.

00:18:14 ◼   ► And again, I don't think Twitter is gonna lose to Mastodon,

00:18:19 ◼   ► like in quotes, but certainly a lot of people

00:18:23 ◼   ► who I follow on Twitter are now on Mastodon

00:18:26 ◼   ► and are oftentimes posting more there.

00:18:29 ◼   ► And so if you are the kind of person

00:18:31 ◼   ► who might wanna follow nerdy people

00:18:33 ◼   ► or people who care about that kind of stuff, check it out.

00:18:36 ◼   ► I would also very strongly encourage everyone.

00:18:38 ◼   ► John mentioned this last week,

00:18:39 ◼   ► but the way Movtodon and Feta Finder work

00:18:43 ◼   ► is they look in your Twitter profile

00:18:46 ◼   ► for links to a Mastodon page.

00:18:49 ◼   ► So if you have a question on the format,

00:18:51 ◼   ► go look at my profile on Twitter.

00:18:53 ◼   ► You can see the format of the link.

00:18:54 ◼   ► It's just instance name, dot whatever,

00:18:56 ◼   ► slash at your username.

00:18:58 ◼   ► That format, they look for that format,

00:19:01 ◼   ► and so if you out there,

00:19:03 ◼   ► if you have created a Mastodon account

00:19:05 ◼   ► in your Twitter bio, go put that kind of link

00:19:08 ◼   ► somewhere in the bio.

00:19:09 ◼   ► It doesn't even have to be like the URL field,

00:19:10 ◼   ► it can be anywhere in the Twitter bio.

00:19:12 ◼   ► Put that link in there so these tools can find you

00:19:15 ◼   ► and then so that anybody who follows you

00:19:17 ◼   ► can automatically find you over at Mastodon

00:19:20 ◼   ► without having to ask and search and everything like that.

00:19:22 ◼   ► So everyone please do that.

00:19:24 ◼   ► And I think this is a big enough thing now

00:19:28 ◼   ► that even if you're not sure whether you'll use it,

00:19:30 ◼   ► you should probably go create an account somewhere.

00:19:32 ◼   ► Like again, as John was saying,

00:19:34 ◼   ► it doesn't really matter which instance you pick

00:19:36 ◼   ► for the most part, as long as it's going to keep existing

00:19:38 ◼   ► in all likelihood for now, that's fine.

00:19:41 ◼   ► But go create an account if you haven't yet

00:19:44 ◼   ► because it seems like there's a good amount

00:19:46 ◼   ► of traction happening here.

00:19:47 ◼   ► And frankly, I'm telling you, once I switched over

00:19:52 ◼   ► to the Ivory beta, the Tapos for Mastodon thing,

00:19:55 ◼   ► it's really, I will oftentimes be using either Tweetbot

00:19:59 ◼   ► or Ivory on my phone and forget which service I'm using.

00:20:03 ◼   ► Because unless you look really closely

00:20:05 ◼   ► at the design of the icons,

00:20:06 ◼   ► you actually can very easily forget that.

00:20:08 ◼   ► It really is like a drop-in replacement at this point.

00:20:12 ◼   ► And as soon as the Mac situation gets worked out,

00:20:14 ◼   ► again by Ivory probably, that's gonna be even better.

00:20:17 ◼   ► But again, stuff's happening and this is the time

00:20:21 ◼   ► if you haven't yet jumped into Mastodon,

00:20:23 ◼   ► go make an account.

00:20:24 ◼   ► Even if you don't wanna be using it,

00:20:25 ◼   ► at least you'll have a good username reserved somewhere.

00:20:28 ◼   ► And it's the worst case scenario.

00:20:29 ◼   ► Best case scenario, you actually might use it.

00:20:31 ◼   ► I have found that it is, in many ways,

00:20:35 ◼   ► like Twitter is, Twitter is like our favorite bar

00:20:39 ◼   ► that we hung out with, that we hung out in every single day

00:20:41 ◼   ► for 15 years, and now a bunch of jerks keep coming in,

00:20:45 ◼   ► and that's always been a bit of a problem,

00:20:47 ◼   ► but now even more jerks are coming in,

00:20:49 ◼   ► and the new owner now is encouraging the jerks

00:20:52 ◼   ► and letting them back in who have been previously kicked out

00:20:54 ◼   ► who were even the biggest jerks

00:20:56 ◼   ► and the most ridiculous, outrageous kind of jerks,

00:20:59 ◼   ► possible violent jerks.

00:21:01 ◼   ► So our favorite bar, it's going a little bit south

00:21:06 ◼   ► and it's not, you know.

00:21:08 ◼   ► Meanwhile, you can go down the street

00:21:10 ◼   ► and go to a nice, cozy, friendly bar

00:21:13 ◼   ► where all your friends are, basically,

00:21:15 ◼   ► or at least many of your friends.

00:21:17 ◼   ► And it's like, wait, this is just kind of nicer.

00:21:20 ◼   ► And that's the experience I've had so far in Mastodon

00:21:22 ◼   ► because it is smaller, and that's probably

00:21:24 ◼   ► the biggest reason, but also because it's a different vibe,

00:21:27 ◼   ► a little bit different scene.

00:21:29 ◼   ► But mostly because it's smaller,

00:21:31 ◼   ► it is just a nicer place to hang out

00:21:34 ◼   ► for a lot of people a lot of the time.

00:21:36 ◼   ► And it seems like it's kind of a nerd haven

00:21:39 ◼   ► in a lot of ways if you follow the nerdy scene like I do.

00:21:41 ◼   ► There's just a whole bunch of nerds there

00:21:42 ◼   ► posting good nerdy stuff and I love it.

00:21:44 ◼   ► So anyway, if you haven't made an account yet

00:21:47 ◼   ► on an mass on thing, please go do it.

00:21:49 ◼   ► Even if you don't end up using it,

00:21:50 ◼   ► you should at least try it.

00:21:52 ◼   ► - I just went to move to non while you're doing that

00:21:54 ◼   ► and I refreshed it, I had it open in a tab as well

00:21:56 ◼   ► and I found two new accounts

00:21:57 ◼   ► and I click the follow button on them.

00:21:59 ◼   ► I didn't even look to see what instance they're on.

00:22:01 ◼   ► It does say, but now that I look,

00:22:03 ◼   ► I see one of them was on hackaderm.io,

00:22:06 ◼   ► and one of them was on-- - Hackaderm, yeah.

00:22:07 ◼   ► - One of them was on mas.to.

00:22:10 ◼   ► But the point is, I didn't even have to look at that.

00:22:11 ◼   ► I just saw that they had a button that said follow,

00:22:13 ◼   ► because I wasn't already following them,

00:22:15 ◼   ► and I just said click, click, done and done.

00:22:16 ◼   ► - Yeah, if I was starting new right now,

00:22:19 ◼   ► I might go to hackaderm, because it seems like

00:22:21 ◼   ► it's a pretty cool group of nerds over there.

00:22:23 ◼   ► - I've got an account there.

00:22:25 ◼   ► - Yeah, of course.

00:22:26 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:22:27 ◼   ► - When I tried to go, that server seems super overwhelmed.

00:22:29 ◼   ► I don't know if it still is, but when I was trying

00:22:31 ◼   ► to create my account there to squad on my username,

00:22:33 ◼   ► it was super slow.

00:22:35 ◼   ► - The admin made a post a few days ago saying

00:22:37 ◼   ► they're doing upgrades and stuff,

00:22:39 ◼   ► because it's run by a bunch of nerves

00:22:41 ◼   ► to know what they're doing, so they're doing

00:22:42 ◼   ► a lot of server stuff over there.

00:22:44 ◼   ► And again, I do think the server scaling,

00:22:49 ◼   ► cost management side of things, there's a lot there

00:22:53 ◼   ► that could go south in the future,

00:22:55 ◼   ► but right now it's a cool place to hang out,

00:22:56 ◼   ► and I hope it stays that way.

00:22:57 ◼   ► So yeah, go pick a mass on instance.

00:23:00 ◼   ► Hackaderms are pretty cool one I think.

00:23:02 ◼   ► And go check it out because this is the time.

00:23:05 ◼   ► This is like the early fun days before it gets crazy

00:23:09 ◼   ► or turns south.

00:23:11 ◼   ► Like this is when everyone's still having fun.

00:23:12 ◼   ► And you know there's not a lot of places like that left

00:23:14 ◼   ► on the internet where new social networks

00:23:17 ◼   ► or people are still having fun.

00:23:18 ◼   ► Like that's not really a thing.

00:23:21 ◼   ► So anyway, yeah, check it out.

00:23:23 ◼   ► - I get it, it's supposed to be like packaderm hackaderm.

00:23:25 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah.

00:23:26 ◼   ► I was not reading it that way.

00:23:28 ◼   ► - All right, the good news is if you don't like Mastodon,

00:23:32 ◼   ► you can go to Hive social, shoot, nevermind.

00:23:35 ◼   ► - Nope.

00:23:36 ◼   ► - So Hive social is that startup that allegedly

00:23:40 ◼   ► is being run by just two people.

00:23:42 ◼   ► And Ars Technica reports that it basically self terminated

00:23:46 ◼   ► or self suspended, I guess I should say,

00:23:49 ◼   ► because a security research group or whatever said,

00:23:53 ◼   ► hey, you guys have got a bunch of problems.

00:23:55 ◼   ► reading from the Ars Technica article,

00:23:57 ◼   ► "The issues we," this is a quote,

00:23:58 ◼   ► "The issues we reported allow any attacker

00:24:00 ◼   ► "to access all data, including private posts,

00:24:01 ◼   ► "private messages, shared media,

00:24:03 ◼   ► "and even deleted direct messages,"

00:24:05 ◼   ► the advisory published on Wednesday

00:24:06 ◼   ► by Berlin-based security collective Zurforschung claimed.

00:24:10 ◼   ► This also includes private email addresses

00:24:12 ◼   ► and phone numbers entered during login.

00:24:14 ◼   ► Cool.

00:24:15 ◼   ► - Oh my God.

00:24:16 ◼   ► - They got all their security flaws out of the way

00:24:19 ◼   ► and by just having one big one,

00:24:20 ◼   ► which is like all access to all data,

00:24:22 ◼   ► a complete access to do anything as anybody all the time.

00:24:25 ◼   ► That's the, pretty much, you don't need to ever have

00:24:28 ◼   ► any other security problems, 'cause you're like,

00:24:30 ◼   ► we did it, we covered everything.

00:24:31 ◼   ► - Oh, also, the things that should have been deleted

00:24:33 ◼   ► are, they don't actually get deleted, they're soft deleted.

00:24:35 ◼   ► - Yeah, right.

00:24:36 ◼   ► - Bonus content. - I mean, that's fun.

00:24:38 ◼   ► So the Hive social thing, I said a couple shows back

00:24:41 ◼   ► when I brought this up that I didn't understand

00:24:44 ◼   ► how it snowballed, like how I suddenly saw everyone

00:24:48 ◼   ► from the gaming community that I follow saying,

00:24:50 ◼   ► come over to Hive, everyone come over to Hive.

00:24:52 ◼   ► And then looking at the numbers,

00:24:53 ◼   ► like they crossed 1 million users,

00:24:55 ◼   ► and the next day they crossed 2 million users,

00:24:56 ◼   ► they were adding, you know,

00:24:58 ◼   ► 500,000 users every 10 hours or something.

00:25:01 ◼   ► Like, and I was like, what is causing that?

00:25:03 ◼   ► What made it snowball?

00:25:04 ◼   ► What was the seed of this?

00:25:05 ◼   ► Did some super popular influencer go there and tell,

00:25:09 ◼   ► like, I still have no answer to that question.

00:25:11 ◼   ► All I know is they were experiencing insane growth.

00:25:14 ◼   ► And I don't blame the people who made the app for the growth.

00:25:16 ◼   ► I don't think they did anything

00:25:17 ◼   ► to make it happen in particular,

00:25:19 ◼   ► but it was like, yeah, like one developer

00:25:21 ◼   ► and two other people helping.

00:25:23 ◼   ► And then the first sign of things being terribly wrong,

00:25:25 ◼   ► other than just knowing the numbers I just told you,

00:25:27 ◼   ► was that after I had gone through all the stuff of me

00:25:30 ◼   ► trying to sign up with my email address

00:25:32 ◼   ► and it wouldn't let me,

00:25:33 ◼   ► so I did like sign in with Apple instead,

00:25:35 ◼   ► it was, I was like, I just need,

00:25:36 ◼   ► I wanted to get my username, right?

00:25:39 ◼   ► Someone pointed out at that point,

00:25:41 ◼   ► yeah, Hive doesn't enforce uniqueness of usernames.

00:25:44 ◼   ► And it showed like a screen saying,

00:25:45 ◼   ► hey, we search for @whatever.

00:25:47 ◼   ► There was like 17 @whatever.

00:25:49 ◼   ► I forgot what it was.

00:25:50 ◼   ► It was Genshin Impact, @GenshinImpact.

00:25:52 ◼   ► It was a screen full of people,

00:25:54 ◼   ► all of whom had @GenshinImpact as their handle.

00:25:57 ◼   ► So they weren't even enforcing uniqueness of handles,

00:26:00 ◼   ► which seems like to me a fairly fundamental feature of,

00:26:05 ◼   ► you know, and apparently I was like,

00:26:07 ◼   ► well, maybe that's like a decision they made

00:26:08 ◼   ► 'cause they don't want that to be unique identifier,

00:26:11 ◼   ► but no, apparently that was a bug.

00:26:12 ◼   ► The other bug was that it's apparently trivially easy

00:26:16 ◼   ► to get access to everyone's messages everywhere,

00:26:20 ◼   ► to be able to tweet as them,

00:26:21 ◼   ► to be able to see the direct messages,

00:26:23 ◼   ► to be able to, like, their security problem that they had,

00:26:25 ◼   ► they were like 100% hacked.

00:26:27 ◼   ► Like, I don't know what the bug was,

00:26:28 ◼   ► but like, it apparently wasn't too difficult for people,

00:26:32 ◼   ► if you knew how, to just basically

00:26:34 ◼   ► completely own them with a P.

00:26:36 ◼   ► And so their response to that was,

00:26:40 ◼   ► their response to that was not great,

00:26:41 ◼   ► because they were aware of this bug

00:26:43 ◼   ► for like 72 hours or something,

00:26:46 ◼   ► before they did the only thing that was possible for them

00:26:48 ◼   ► to do, which was we have to stop this service and regroup.

00:26:53 ◼   ► Which again, I don't particularly blame them

00:26:54 ◼   ► for a three person company makes this iOS app

00:26:56 ◼   ► and then they have 2 million users within a few days.

00:26:59 ◼   ► They're obviously in over their head.

00:27:01 ◼   ► And so yeah, they shut down Hive.

00:27:03 ◼   ► Will it rise again?

00:27:04 ◼   ► We'll see.

00:27:05 ◼   ► But anyway, that is /was Hive.

00:27:08 ◼   ► - Oh my God, what a mess.

00:27:10 ◼   ► I mean, look, I don't wanna take too much joy

00:27:12 ◼   ► on other people's mistakes,

00:27:13 ◼   ► but those are some big mistakes.

00:27:15 ◼   ► That's really outrageous.

00:27:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's just like learning on hard mode for sure,

00:27:20 ◼   ► but I still don't understand or know

00:27:22 ◼   ► why they snowballed the way they did, right?

00:27:25 ◼   ► - Who knows?

00:27:26 ◼   ► I have good news and bad news.

00:27:28 ◼   ► I'm mostly talking to our friend Merlin Mann.

00:27:31 ◼   ► The good news is, Sharrow is a real thing.

00:27:34 ◼   ► Merlin is vindicated, baby!

00:27:36 ◼   ► Except it doesn't mean a box with an arrow coming out of it.

00:27:40 ◼   ► - Or does it?

00:27:41 ◼   ► - Or does it?

00:27:42 ◼   ► So we got a bunch of different feedback about this.

00:27:45 ◼   ► There was a great summary that was sent to us by Wes Davis.

00:27:47 ◼   ► Wes writes, "I'm sure you've gotten plenty of feedback

00:27:49 ◼   ► on this, but in the event that I'm the only bike nerd

00:27:51 ◼   ► listening," and I think at the time I read this,

00:27:53 ◼   ► this was the first piece of feedback about it, but anyway.

00:27:55 ◼   ► - The first of many.

00:27:57 ◼   ► - The first of many.

00:27:58 ◼   ► "I wanted to point out that Merlin

00:27:59 ◼   ► didn't invent the term 'sharrow.'

00:28:01 ◼   ► It's actually a term used by cyclists and city planners

00:28:03 ◼   ► to refer to the double chevron symbols

00:28:05 ◼   ► above a bicycle symbol you sometimes see on roads

00:28:07 ◼   ► lacking bike lanes to indicate to cars that A,

00:28:09 ◼   ► cyclists will be here and that's okay,

00:28:11 ◼   ► And B, this is the general area that they will exist.

00:28:15 ◼   ► It's a special kick in the face when a cyclist is on a road

00:28:17 ◼   ► with plenty of space for cars and bike lanes,

00:28:19 ◼   ► and they've painted a sharrow

00:28:22 ◼   ► near the right-hand side of the road

00:28:23 ◼   ► where, you know, a bike lane could be,

00:28:26 ◼   ► which I thought was quite funny.

00:28:27 ◼   ► - People do not like sharrows.

00:28:29 ◼   ► Bike riders don't like them.

00:28:30 ◼   ► It's basically like you did the minimum possible

00:28:33 ◼   ► instead of making a real protected bike lane,

00:28:36 ◼   ► and the studies have shown that it actually

00:28:37 ◼   ► makes it more dangerous for bike riders, not less.

00:28:40 ◼   ► So, Sharrows get a big thumb down from biking.

00:28:43 ◼   ► Here's the thing about this with respect to Merlin.

00:28:45 ◼   ► Merlin has recently been in a little bit of a rabbit hole

00:28:48 ◼   ► learning about like road design and urban design.

00:28:50 ◼   ► So he may have been exposed to this exact term

00:28:52 ◼   ► in that context, but.

00:28:54 ◼   ► - That's true, that's true.

00:28:55 ◼   ► From the first anonymous person,

00:28:57 ◼   ► "I'd like this to be kept anonymous,

00:28:59 ◼   ► "but I can confirm internally within Apple on Slack,

00:29:02 ◼   ► "I've absolutely seen Sharrow in use.

00:29:04 ◼   ► "Just thought you'd appreciate knowing."

00:29:06 ◼   ► So Merlin is vindicated from another anonymous person.

00:29:09 ◼   ► Regarding the word share-o,

00:29:10 ◼   ► I don't think Merlin invented it,

00:29:12 ◼   ► but regardless if he did or not,

00:29:13 ◼   ► I'm 95% sure I heard designers inside Apple

00:29:15 ◼   ► use it when I was there.

00:29:17 ◼   ► So it's at least spread that far by 2019 or so.

00:29:19 ◼   ► And then from our final anonymous birdie,

00:29:22 ◼   ► perhaps it will surprise you to know

00:29:23 ◼   ► that when I began working in Apple retail eight years ago,

00:29:26 ◼   ► the word share-o was already in use,

00:29:28 ◼   ► taught to me by a coworker,

00:29:29 ◼   ► and used regularly by our creative team

00:29:31 ◼   ► when teaching customers.

00:29:32 ◼   ► - Yeah, the people who talked about share-o

00:29:34 ◼   ► being used for the share-o often said that,

00:29:37 ◼   ► yeah, we used it in this context or whatever,

00:29:39 ◼   ► but like it hasn't, I mean, it hasn't seemed

00:29:43 ◼   ► to like have caught on.

00:29:44 ◼   ► Lots of things are used inside Apple and not outside Apple.

00:29:47 ◼   ► But if Apple retail is teaching it to people,

00:29:50 ◼   ► you'd think maybe it would catch on

00:29:51 ◼   ► in the wider community, anyway.

00:29:52 ◼   ► There's still a chance it can happen.

00:29:53 ◼   ► There's still a chance we could circle back a year from now

00:29:55 ◼   ► and everybody uses the term Sharrow.

00:29:57 ◼   ► We could be making it happen right now

00:29:58 ◼   ► just by talking about it unintentionally.

00:30:01 ◼   ► But yeah, it's not on Merlin to make it happen

00:30:04 ◼   ► is what I'm saying.

00:30:05 ◼   ► Apple has been apparently trying to make Sharrow

00:30:07 ◼   ► happen for years, it just hasn't broken through yet.

00:30:09 ◼   ► I like hive.

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00:32:02 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

00:32:06 ◼   ► A couple of episodes ago, we were discussing a gift that Marco gave me and I thought that

00:32:11 ◼   ► was really fun.

00:32:12 ◼   ► And then I was looking around at this piece of code and this particular piece of code

00:32:16 ◼   ► I was looking at, it's a new open source thing.

00:32:20 ◼   ► It has unit tests just like the gift Marco gave me a couple of weeks ago.

00:32:24 ◼   ► It has combined publishers.

00:32:27 ◼   ► It has async await.

00:32:28 ◼   ► It has all sorts of delightful things.

00:32:31 ◼   ► I have almost fallen over.

00:32:33 ◼   ► I am so excited.

00:32:34 ◼   ► Even though this is code I don't think I'll ever use because it doesn't really do anything

00:32:36 ◼   ► for me personally.

00:32:37 ◼   ► The fact that these things exist is such a gift to me and I want to use all sort of vulgar

00:32:43 ◼   ► euphemisms about how happy I am about this but I will refrain and I will keep them to

00:32:47 ◼   ► myself.

00:32:48 ◼   ► But anyways, Blackbird has been open sourced and so you can check out Marco's in progress

00:32:54 ◼   ► sequel, what is it, ButtDB.

00:32:59 ◼   ► You can see his in progress SQLite wrapper.

00:33:02 ◼   ► And I have only taken but a few minutes

00:33:04 ◼   ► spelunking through the code.

00:33:06 ◼   ► But as much as I'm kind of being snarky about it,

00:33:09 ◼   ► for real, there's publishers, there's unit tests,

00:33:11 ◼   ► there's async await, it's all there, baby.

00:33:13 ◼   ► I'm so excited.

00:33:14 ◼   ► This is very cool.

00:33:16 ◼   ► - Thank you.

00:33:17 ◼   ► Yeah, and I even, yesterday,

00:33:18 ◼   ► I put a whole big Swift UI thing out

00:33:21 ◼   ► with some fancy property wrappers

00:33:24 ◼   ► for live updating instance groups and stuff like that.

00:33:26 ◼   ► Yeah, so it's, so far it's going along

00:33:29 ◼   ► I even had a friend of the friend of the show and the world guy English even already contributed a pretty substantial pull request for

00:33:36 ◼   ► Adding performance counters and stuff that it show up in instruments. So that's pretty cool

00:33:39 ◼   ► Did you also get something for like a what was it for the string literals with the inline interpolation thing?

00:33:45 ◼   ► That well, yeah, that wasn't a pull request

00:33:46 ◼   ► But that was it was a few people on Twitter who pointed that out including I think one of the authors of a project that

00:33:51 ◼   ► Did that I?

00:33:53 ◼   ► Don't know if I want to do that that feels a little bit like

00:33:57 ◼   ► expected magic from the call site end,

00:33:59 ◼   ► like I don't think I would expect that to happen

00:34:02 ◼   ► at the call site.

00:34:03 ◼   ► - It makes it look like you're making SQL injection bugs,

00:34:06 ◼   ► but you're not.

00:34:07 ◼   ► - Exactly, yeah, that's why I don't,

00:34:09 ◼   ► I see the advantage of it in terms of like,

00:34:12 ◼   ► you're putting the arguments right where they go,

00:34:13 ◼   ► like that, I see that value, but I think most people,

00:34:17 ◼   ► including my own future self, like at the call site,

00:34:20 ◼   ► would not expect that to be the behavior,

00:34:22 ◼   ► and so I don't think I wanna do that.

00:34:24 ◼   ► Unless custom string interpolation becomes

00:34:27 ◼   ► much more common pattern that's used a lot in Swift.

00:34:29 ◼   ► But I don't think it is or is going to be, so we'll see.

00:34:33 ◼   ► - I think the coolest thing about that is

00:34:34 ◼   ► if you were able to do it pervasively,

00:34:36 ◼   ► it essentially protects against people who don't know

00:34:40 ◼   ► how to avoid SQL injection attacks.

00:34:42 ◼   ► Like they think, you would look at the code

00:34:44 ◼   ► and it's like, oh no, this beginner

00:34:46 ◼   ► made a SQL injection attack.

00:34:47 ◼   ► They have no idea that that custom interpolation is there,

00:34:50 ◼   ► but that custom interpolation would in fact

00:34:52 ◼   ► be protecting them against that injection attack.

00:34:55 ◼   ► but I'm not sure you could ever get to that level

00:34:57 ◼   ► of a safety net where you could say,

00:34:59 ◼   ► you don't even need to know about this,

00:35:00 ◼   ► just write any old code and you'll always be protected

00:35:03 ◼   ► against injection.

00:35:04 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, I don't know.

00:35:06 ◼   ► Doesn't seem like it's a good idea.

00:35:08 ◼   ► I did also, I tried earlier today,

00:35:11 ◼   ► somebody submitted a pull request that turned on

00:35:14 ◼   ► the Swift concurrency warnings for all the sendable stuff

00:35:19 ◼   ► and I tried for a little while to get that

00:35:22 ◼   ► to not show 88 warnings when I compiled the app.

00:35:26 ◼   ► That's a bigger project.

00:35:29 ◼   ► I am gonna try to make that all correct,

00:35:32 ◼   ► just for future looking stuff,

00:35:33 ◼   ► but I tried doing it like today,

00:35:35 ◼   ► I'm like oh, this is way bigger than a one day project.

00:35:39 ◼   ► So I'll work on that.

00:35:40 ◼   ► But overall, I actually do intend to do stuff like that

00:35:43 ◼   ► because again, my plan is for this to be

00:35:47 ◼   ► what I write my apps against for the next X year

00:35:49 ◼   ► where X is however long I'm writing Swift apps.

00:35:52 ◼   ► And that's hopefully gonna be a long time.

00:35:55 ◼   ► And so I do intend for this to be very forward looking,

00:36:00 ◼   ► forward compatible, cover as many of my forward needs

00:36:06 ◼   ► as possible, I'm gonna possibly write a CloudKit adapter

00:36:10 ◼   ► for it, but I'm gonna see, long story short,

00:36:13 ◼   ► I haven't yet fully decided if I'm even going

00:36:15 ◼   ► to be using CloudKit for Overcast, but if I do,

00:36:18 ◼   ► then that's gonna be the next step here

00:36:19 ◼   ► I'm going to make a CloudKit wrapper for this probably.

00:36:21 ◼   ► But anyway, yeah, so Blackbird, yeah, it's going pretty well.

00:36:24 ◼   ► I don't think anyone's using it yet, and you shouldn't.

00:36:27 ◼   ► I tell you right in the FAQ, don't use it before I use it.

00:36:30 ◼   ► Because if I use it and it turns out something doesn't work

00:36:33 ◼   ► right or the API is clunky in some way,

00:36:35 ◼   ► I'm going to change it.

00:36:36 ◼   ► And that could break how you're using it.

00:36:39 ◼   ► So yeah, this is not ready for you.

00:36:41 ◼   ► It's open sourced only for people's curiosity

00:36:45 ◼   ► and possibly learning and me learning from you,

00:36:48 ◼   ► not actually intended to be used yet.

00:36:51 ◼   ► - Yep, now I am super pleased that you are using

00:36:54 ◼   ► all this new and fancy stuff,

00:36:56 ◼   ► in part because this is,

00:36:58 ◼   ► and this is gonna come out mean,

00:37:01 ◼   ► and I don't intend it to,

00:37:02 ◼   ► but that's not typically your MO.

00:37:04 ◼   ► You're typically a little more conservative,

00:37:06 ◼   ► and I'm excited that you're living more on the cutting edge

00:37:09 ◼   ► than you typically do.

00:37:10 ◼   ► And plus, I plan to dig through this

00:37:12 ◼   ► with a more fine-tooth comb for my own knowledge,

00:37:15 ◼   ► not because I wanna be that guy that's,

00:37:16 ◼   ► "Wow, did you consider that you should do this?"

00:37:18 ◼   ► But no, I feel like I could learn from this.

00:37:21 ◼   ► And so I'm very excited to dig into this

00:37:24 ◼   ► and see more of it.

00:37:25 ◼   ► - Thank you, it fits my usual pattern.

00:37:28 ◼   ► It's just a pattern that has a very long cycle time.

00:37:31 ◼   ► Like when I was first, when we were first doing Tumblr,

00:37:35 ◼   ► PHP 5, I believe, had just come out.

00:37:40 ◼   ► It was like 5.2, whichever one added late static binding.

00:37:44 ◼   ► That was like right in early Tumblr days.

00:37:46 ◼   ► I think it was like 2007-ish, maybe 2006,

00:37:50 ◼   ► but yeah, I think it was 5.2, the Adelaide static binding,

00:37:52 ◼   ► and that made a bunch of much more,

00:37:56 ◼   ► I mean, by today's standards, fairly primitive stuff,

00:37:58 ◼   ► but for PHP in 2006 standards,

00:38:02 ◼   ► some much more advanced object-oriented programming

00:38:04 ◼   ► was possible thanks to that update.

00:38:06 ◼   ► And it made such a big difference

00:38:08 ◼   ► in how you would write an app like that,

00:38:11 ◼   ► that we require that from all of our servers,

00:38:15 ◼   ► and we jumped in and made all of the most advanced

00:38:18 ◼   ► PHP stuff you could do at that time,

00:38:20 ◼   ► that was the basis for that.

00:38:22 ◼   ► I am still using that PHP framework today,

00:38:25 ◼   ► or at least a very, very, very distant derivative of it.

00:38:29 ◼   ► Still using many of those basic structures and stuff today

00:38:33 ◼   ► because I jumped in when it was super advanced

00:38:36 ◼   ► and it was very cutting edge at the time

00:38:38 ◼   ► and now I still have no reason to really change it.

00:38:42 ◼   ► So that's kinda how I see this.

00:38:44 ◼   ► I have a lot of ancient objective C code

00:38:47 ◼   ► that I wrote 10 years ago that I'm still using today

00:38:51 ◼   ► because I wrote it a long time ago to be cutting edge then

00:38:54 ◼   ► and it's still fine now.

00:38:56 ◼   ► Well, I hope this is gonna be one of those pieces

00:38:59 ◼   ► of Swift code for me, that I'm writing this all

00:39:02 ◼   ► to be cutting edge now so that 10 years from now

00:39:05 ◼   ► it's not out of date or broken, hopefully not.

00:39:10 ◼   ► And this is hopefully still a good way

00:39:11 ◼   ► to do things 10 years from now.

00:39:13 ◼   ► Now, before we leave this topic,

00:39:14 ◼   ► I wanted to call out one thing.

00:39:16 ◼   ► You put in your README,

00:39:18 ◼   ► wishlist for future Swift language capabilities.

00:39:21 ◼   ► And I know you didn't see it,

00:39:23 ◼   ► but I gave the following a standing friggin' ovation

00:39:26 ◼   ► because I could not agree with you more.

00:39:28 ◼   ► Type reflection for automatic or cleaner schema definitions.

00:39:31 ◼   ► Swift currently has no way to reflect a type's properties.

00:39:33 ◼   ► Mirror only reflects property names

00:39:35 ◼   ► and values of given instances.

00:39:37 ◼   ► If language adds type reflection in the future,

00:39:39 ◼   ► I'd love to add an optional automatic table definitions

00:39:41 ◼   ► that didn't require repeating the column names and types

00:39:44 ◼   ► in my static var table equals blah, blah, blah definition.

00:39:47 ◼   ► It could also be based on property wrappers,

00:39:48 ◼   ► e.g., you know, @column or @index column, et cetera.

00:39:52 ◼   ► Amen, brother.

00:39:54 ◼   ► - Thank you. - I could not agree

00:39:56 ◼   ► with you more. - I think there's a proposal

00:39:58 ◼   ► for that already for type reflection, isn't there?

00:40:01 ◼   ► - I feel like, I can't imagine there wouldn't be.

00:40:03 ◼   ► - Yeah. - It's like,

00:40:04 ◼   ► it's such an obvious thing.

00:40:05 ◼   ► - I think I read it recently.

00:40:06 ◼   ► I know, but I'm not just like, it's on a list,

00:40:08 ◼   ► but like someone already has a proposal for it, I think.

00:40:10 ◼   ► We'll try to find it for the show notes.

00:40:12 ◼   ► If not, someone will send it to us for next week.

00:40:14 ◼   ► But yeah, that's one of the things I've read recently

00:40:17 ◼   ► as an actual thing.

00:40:19 ◼   ► Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more.

00:40:20 ◼   ► Yeah, and this is another reason why

00:40:22 ◼   ► you shouldn't rely on this framework being stable

00:40:25 ◼   ► where it is now.

00:40:26 ◼   ► If that comes out next year, I'm moving this entire framework

00:40:29 ◼   ► to it.

00:40:30 ◼   ► I'm just going to do it, and I'll update my code,

00:40:32 ◼   ► and I hope yours works.

00:40:34 ◼   ► It might not be sufficient for all the things

00:40:36 ◼   ► that you want out of it.

00:40:37 ◼   ► Yeah, probably not.

00:40:38 ◼   ► But you'll see.

00:40:40 ◼   ► Plus those features like that tend to like,

00:40:42 ◼   ► Apple hoards them for each major Swift version.

00:40:45 ◼   ► You can see them in the, it's all in the open,

00:40:48 ◼   ► so it's not like it's a mystery,

00:40:49 ◼   ► but when they come out with like,

00:40:50 ◼   ► oh, here's the new version of Swift,

00:40:51 ◼   ► it'll be able to see,

00:40:52 ◼   ► you know everything that's gonna be in it.

00:40:54 ◼   ► But Apple does tend to wait for those yearly Xcode releases

00:40:57 ◼   ► to sort of package it all up and deliver it

00:40:59 ◼   ► to their developers in a way that it's safe to use

00:41:01 ◼   ► with App Store stuff.

00:41:02 ◼   ► - Yeah, right, yeah.

00:41:03 ◼   ► Even if they release that,

00:41:06 ◼   ► or somebody adds that to Swift in the spring,

00:41:08 ◼   ► there's no way we'd be able to ship code with it

00:41:11 ◼   ► until the fall.

00:41:11 ◼   ► And it would probably even then probably

00:41:14 ◼   ► require the latest releases to run, too.

00:41:17 ◼   ► Because that also involves some runtime.

00:41:18 ◼   ► That's one of the cool proposal things.

00:41:19 ◼   ► One of the things that actually is going in is-- I

00:41:22 ◼   ► think it's going in-- I'm assuming it will pass--

00:41:24 ◼   ► is a way to backport APIs to older things.

00:41:28 ◼   ► So you don't just say, oh, I added this new method,

00:41:30 ◼   ► but you only get it if you're on venture, right?

00:41:32 ◼   ► A way to basically backcompat things to previous versions.

00:41:36 ◼   ► I mean, it's another feature you're looking at.

00:41:37 ◼   ► like oh this is a feature Apple could use well yeah duh it's actually kind of

00:41:41 ◼   ► clever how they did it if you read the proposal it's built on a feature they

00:41:44 ◼   ► already had but just extending it a little bit making it so if you if you're

00:41:48 ◼   ► running on the older version of the OS you'll get the implementation copied

00:41:52 ◼   ► down into you but you don't have to get the entire library copied in anyway stuff

00:41:55 ◼   ► like that makes me think that you know features that are useful to Apple will

00:41:59 ◼   ► come sooner than features features that aren't and I think type reflection would

00:42:03 ◼   ► be useful for Apple so I think that a good shot of getting in for next year

00:42:06 ◼   ► - Yeah, 'cause we still don't really have

00:42:08 ◼   ► like Apple's core data solution for Swift.

00:42:12 ◼   ► Like core data is compatible with Swift,

00:42:14 ◼   ► but it's not a very Swift-y way to do things,

00:42:18 ◼   ► and I still don't think we have,

00:42:19 ◼   ► like what is Apple's answer to like the next generation

00:42:23 ◼   ► of core data designed with Swift in mind?

00:42:26 ◼   ► I don't think we have that yet,

00:42:27 ◼   ► and maybe they would use features like that

00:42:30 ◼   ► to make that happen.

00:42:31 ◼   ► - Yeah, we'll see.

00:42:32 ◼   ► I just would really like it.

00:42:34 ◼   ► When I was heavy in .NET and C#, this was when reflection was new to me, and man, there

00:42:40 ◼   ► was not a problem that could not be solved with reflection.

00:42:43 ◼   ► And obviously I've grown up since then, and I think I would use it far more sparingly,

00:42:48 ◼   ► but it is something very, very useful to have and something that I wish Swift had more than

00:42:52 ◼   ► a passing implementation of.

00:42:54 ◼   ► And even then, like you said in your readme, the implementation is half-butted, to use

00:42:59 ◼   ► your term, if anything.

00:43:01 ◼   ► So I'd really love a full butt implementation of Mirror.

00:43:04 ◼   ► Real time follow up, a one J. Seracusa in the chat room

00:43:08 ◼   ► seems to have found the, oh no,

00:43:10 ◼   ► this is function back deployment.

00:43:11 ◼   ► I was gonna say this is reflection,

00:43:12 ◼   ► but no, this is the function back deployment

00:43:14 ◼   ► you were talking about, which is cool stuff as well.

00:43:17 ◼   ► - It's Swift Illusion 0376, function back deployment.

00:43:21 ◼   ► Even if you don't know too much about programming,

00:43:23 ◼   ► the great thing about these proposals,

00:43:25 ◼   ► Swift Illusion proposals, they tend to explain things

00:43:28 ◼   ► more or less in first principles.

00:43:29 ◼   ► So you can just read it and kind of understand

00:43:31 ◼   ► what they're proposing, even if you have no idea

00:43:34 ◼   ► about Swift or language design or anything.

00:43:37 ◼   ► You have to know a little bit about programming,

00:43:38 ◼   ► but they're usually very clear.

00:43:40 ◼   ► - The other thing, though, like, I do have one,

00:43:43 ◼   ► I don't know if it's necessarily a concern or a complaint,

00:43:45 ◼   ► but one kind of effect to notice is,

00:43:50 ◼   ► as I'm diving into a lot of this,

00:43:51 ◼   ► a lot of kind of deeper Swift functionality

00:43:54 ◼   ► and Swift UI functionality as well,

00:43:57 ◼   ► there is just so much here.

00:43:58 ◼   ► It is a huge language and it keeps getting bigger.

00:44:02 ◼   ► Like there are so many ways you can write things.

00:44:06 ◼   ► There are so many capabilities down below everything.

00:44:09 ◼   ► There are so many weird little @ prefixes

00:44:10 ◼   ► you can stick on things that change behavior

00:44:13 ◼   ► in certain ways.

00:44:14 ◼   ► It is a massively complex language

00:44:17 ◼   ► and it's getting more and more complex every year.

00:44:20 ◼   ► And I do kind of worry about that from the point of view of,

00:44:24 ◼   ► just manageability of complexity.

00:44:27 ◼   ► I heard somewhere recently that the biggest challenge

00:44:30 ◼   ► in programming is managing complexity.

00:44:33 ◼   ► And that is, first of all, insanely correct and wise,

00:44:36 ◼   ► and that's so much bigger than cache validation

00:44:38 ◼   ► and naming things and all that stuff.

00:44:41 ◼   ► But managing complexity is by far our industry's

00:44:44 ◼   ► biggest challenge, always, from one coder

00:44:46 ◼   ► all the way up to big teams.

00:44:48 ◼   ► That's just software development in a nutshell,

00:44:50 ◼   ► is managing complexity in some kind of reasonable way.

00:44:53 ◼   ► and the language itself, like Swift makes

00:44:58 ◼   ► so much complexity possible that I'm concerned

00:45:02 ◼   ► that it's first of all not only extremely difficult

00:45:06 ◼   ► for people to really learn and get a good handle on

00:45:09 ◼   ► because all the stuff under the covers

00:45:11 ◼   ► and behind the scenes that you eventually

00:45:13 ◼   ► do have to deal with, but also I'm concerned

00:45:17 ◼   ► about just the language itself becoming so big

00:45:20 ◼   ► and bloated, like are developer tools gonna still be

00:45:24 ◼   ► fairly unreliable and bloated and slow forever

00:45:27 ◼   ► with this language?

00:45:28 ◼   ► How about documentation and the community forums

00:45:34 ◼   ► and stack overflow and stuff like that?

00:45:35 ◼   ► There's a lot of complexity in this language

00:45:37 ◼   ► and I think that's gonna ripple out

00:45:38 ◼   ► in pretty significant ways that are probably

00:45:41 ◼   ► already happening and some of the complexity

00:45:43 ◼   ► I guess is necessary to build what they wanna build

00:45:45 ◼   ► but I do think there's not,

00:45:48 ◼   ► maybe not enough prioritization on saying no

00:45:53 ◼   ► to certain features in the language.

00:45:55 ◼   ► But I don't know, I'm not a language designer,

00:45:57 ◼   ► so maybe I'm off base here,

00:45:59 ◼   ► but it is just a way, way bigger language

00:46:02 ◼   ► than anything we've used before.

00:46:05 ◼   ► - I think they're mostly going in the right direction.

00:46:06 ◼   ► Like the kind of proposals that I see a lot of

00:46:08 ◼   ► that make sense again being something useful for Apple,

00:46:11 ◼   ► you'll see a proposal and you'll be like,

00:46:12 ◼   ► "Huh, why do they care about this feature?"

00:46:15 ◼   ► And when you look at it and read it and start looking at some of the examples,

00:46:18 ◼   ► what you learn is basically like the Swift standard library, like the part,

00:46:21 ◼   ► you know,

00:46:22 ◼   ► the big part of Swift is the library that it comes with that has all the stuff

00:46:25 ◼   ► in that are not quote unquote part of the language there,

00:46:27 ◼   ► but they're in a library. If you look at the code for the Swift standard library,

00:46:30 ◼   ► some of it looks really awful. You're like, Oh, why do they have to do this?

00:46:34 ◼   ► It looks hacky and weird and there's some weird repetition of code and they have

00:46:38 ◼   ► to do things in weird ways. And you're like, boy,

00:46:40 ◼   ► I'm glad I don't have to maintain this code.

00:46:42 ◼   ► And then you look back at the proposal and you realize the proposal,

00:46:44 ◼   ► lets them delete all this code and replace it

00:46:46 ◼   ► with something simple and straightforward, right?

00:46:48 ◼   ► And so when you look at the feature,

00:46:49 ◼   ► why are they adding new features?

00:46:51 ◼   ► It's because they wanted to do a thing, a useful thing,

00:46:54 ◼   ► 'cause the standard library's not magic.

00:46:56 ◼   ► It doesn't do anything that regular code doesn't do,

00:46:58 ◼   ► but it's super important, and they want it to be

00:47:00 ◼   ► high performance, safe, easy to use, have a nice API,

00:47:04 ◼   ► and by doing all that, they're like,

00:47:06 ◼   ► "Boy, to make a good standard library,

00:47:07 ◼   ► "we have to do this ugly crap.

00:47:09 ◼   ► "Why do we have to do this ugly crap?"

00:47:10 ◼   ► And it's like, oh, 'cause you can't do X, Y, and Z in Swift

00:47:13 ◼   ► because of some limitation.

00:47:15 ◼   ► So they add a feature that lets them basically

00:47:17 ◼   ► jump into the standard library and just delete pages of code

00:47:20 ◼   ► and condense it down to one concise paragraph.

00:47:23 ◼   ► And you on the outside think, oh, they're

00:47:25 ◼   ► adding more features to Swift.

00:47:26 ◼   ► But if you have a substantial Swift code base

00:47:29 ◼   ► that you try to write to be the best it can be,

00:47:31 ◼   ► you realize that by having this feature,

00:47:34 ◼   ► it simplifies the code so much.

00:47:36 ◼   ► Like you don't have to do this weird hack.

00:47:38 ◼   ► You don't have to repeat yourself.

00:47:39 ◼   ► You don't have to do a workaround because you're not

00:47:42 ◼   ► allowed to do this one thing that you wanted to do.

00:47:44 ◼   ► And a lot of the Swift proposals I see are like that.

00:47:47 ◼   ► For example, reflection with type data.

00:47:49 ◼   ► There are probably places in the standard library

00:47:51 ◼   ► where that would come in so handy

00:47:53 ◼   ► and save them a lot of time and energy

00:47:55 ◼   ► where now they're like, well, we can't do that,

00:47:57 ◼   ► so just repeat this code block 50 different times

00:48:00 ◼   ► with different parameters on it, because there's no way for us

00:48:02 ◼   ► to programmatically figure out the answer to this question.

00:48:06 ◼   ► We just have to bake our knowledge

00:48:07 ◼   ► into the standard library by repeating the code.

00:48:09 ◼   ► So there are boondoggles here and there,

00:48:12 ◼   ► but for the most part,

00:48:12 ◼   ► I like the direction I see most of the proposals

00:48:15 ◼   ► because I think that at the time of proposals,

00:48:17 ◼   ► they'll let somebody, usually Apple,

00:48:19 ◼   ► delete a lot of code and replace it with less.

00:48:22 ◼   ► - I think my favorite of this was the DSL stuff

00:48:25 ◼   ► that landed before SwiftUI did.

00:48:27 ◼   ► And so, you know, there's all this,

00:48:29 ◼   ► oh, how do we make like, you know,

00:48:31 ◼   ► a domain specific language for something?

00:48:34 ◼   ► I don't know what it could possibly be.

00:48:37 ◼   ► And a few of us were smart enough to put together

00:48:41 ◼   ► what this apparently would probably be and were right.

00:48:44 ◼   ► And then it got used for stuff like their

00:48:46 ◼   ► absolutely awesome Regex stuff, which is coming soon

00:48:49 ◼   ► and is so much better than Perl, we can all agree.

00:48:51 ◼   ► Right, so anyway, Apple has dropped a bunch of stuff

00:48:54 ◼   ► in our laps.

00:48:55 ◼   ► Thank you Apple for doing it on a Wednesday

00:48:57 ◼   ► and not a different day, we appreciate that.

00:48:59 ◼   ► They've announced three new quote,

00:49:01 ◼   ► advanced security features quote.

00:49:04 ◼   ► And we're gonna start with the things that are not

00:49:08 ◼   ► that dramatic and then move to the dramatic one.

00:49:11 ◼   ► First is iMessage Contact Key Verification.

00:49:14 ◼   ► This will be available globally in 2023.

00:49:17 ◼   ► And from the newsroom, their announcement says,

00:49:22 ◼   ► "Now with iMessage Contact Key Verification,

00:49:24 ◼   ► "users who face extraordinary digital threats

00:49:26 ◼   ► "such as journalists, human rights activists,

00:49:28 ◼   ► "and members of government, quick aside,

00:49:30 ◼   ► "it's pretty sick that human rights activists

00:49:33 ◼   ► are in the category of extraordinary digital threats,

00:49:36 ◼   ► but that's neither here nor there,

00:49:37 ◼   ► can choose to further verify that they are messaging

00:49:39 ◼   ► only with the people they intend.

00:49:41 ◼   ► Conversations between users

00:49:42 ◼   ► who have enabled iMessage Contact Key Verification

00:49:44 ◼   ► receive automatic alerts

00:49:45 ◼   ► of an exceptionally advanced adversary,

00:49:47 ◼   ► such as a state-sponsored attacker,

00:49:49 ◼   ► where efforts to succeed breaking cloud servers

00:49:52 ◼   ► and inserting their own device to eavesdrop

00:49:54 ◼   ► on these encrypted communications.

00:49:56 ◼   ► And for even higher security,

00:49:57 ◼   ► iMessage Contact Key Verification users

00:50:00 ◼   ► can compare a contact verification code

00:50:02 ◼   ► in person on FaceTime or through another secure call.

00:50:05 ◼   ► And they have a screenshot of this,

00:50:06 ◼   ► and in the screenshot it shows a little warning triangle,

00:50:09 ◼   ► and it says, this is within the context

00:50:10 ◼   ► of an iMessage thread,

00:50:12 ◼   ► an unrecognized device may have been added

00:50:14 ◼   ► to such and such account.

00:50:16 ◼   ► Options, and then you can click on options

00:50:18 ◼   ► or tap on options, and it's not clear what happens then.

00:50:20 ◼   ► But basically, I guess it, I'm unclear how this works.

00:50:25 ◼   ► I'm not sure if either of you two know,

00:50:26 ◼   ► but does it just alert you when a new device

00:50:29 ◼   ► is added to an existing thread?

00:50:30 ◼   ► 'Cause that seems--

00:50:31 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think this is like a human factors

00:50:34 ◼   ► security enhancement rather than a sort of, you know,

00:50:38 ◼   ► data-driven one to zero security enhancement.

00:50:40 ◼   ► It's basically, seems to me, a combination

00:50:43 ◼   ► of heightened awareness when things have changed.

00:50:46 ◼   ► Because people get new devices all the time,

00:50:48 ◼   ► but like sort of communicating that is something

00:50:50 ◼   ► that good services have done for many years now.

00:50:52 ◼   ► Like, did you know that a new computer was authorized

00:50:56 ◼   ► to log into your iCloud account?

00:50:57 ◼   ► Did you know that this, you know, you just signed on

00:50:59 ◼   ► to Amazon.com from a device we've never seen before.

00:51:03 ◼   ► Those type of things where they would send you emails

00:51:05 ◼   ► and stuff, that sort of increases awareness

00:51:07 ◼   ► that someone couldn't be doing something behind your back

00:51:09 ◼   ► that you would have no way of knowing about.

00:51:12 ◼   ► And so this is adding that to iMessage.

00:51:14 ◼   ► Like, oh, you think you're messaging with this person

00:51:16 ◼   ► and it's not like we're telling you

00:51:17 ◼   ► that you're not messaging with that person

00:51:18 ◼   ► but it seems like they're using a device

00:51:20 ◼   ► they've never used before.

00:51:22 ◼   ► And so maybe you're not talking to them.

00:51:24 ◼   ► Maybe you're talking to someone else

00:51:26 ◼   ► who has figured out how to hack into their iCloud account

00:51:29 ◼   ► on, you know, and so they're using a new device,

00:51:31 ◼   ► but communicating with them.

00:51:31 ◼   ► So there's that, there's the heads up thing.

00:51:33 ◼   ► And then this other part is the key verification.

00:51:36 ◼   ► I guess the idea is underneath that options thing,

00:51:39 ◼   ► this is why I wish they'd shown a demo of this.

00:51:40 ◼   ► I guess it's not ready yet,

00:51:41 ◼   ► but underneath the options thing,

00:51:42 ◼   ► it would basically say, hey,

00:51:44 ◼   ► if you want to like validate that this person

00:51:46 ◼   ► is who they say they are,

00:51:47 ◼   ► like here's some kind of workflow

00:51:49 ◼   ► whereby out of band in someplace other than messages,

00:51:53 ◼   ► you have a way to communicate with that person

00:51:55 ◼   ► to exchange some information that only they would know,

00:51:59 ◼   ► I mean like honestly I guess you could like facetime them and if you recognize their face

00:52:02 ◼   ► And there's not a gun to their head that it's probably them or you could call them on the phone or you know whatever

00:52:06 ◼   ► But this is sort of facilitating that so it's a combination of something might be weird and Apple might have a way for you to

00:52:13 ◼   ► Check whether things are okay. You don't need Apple to to to check whether things are okay

00:52:18 ◼   ► You could just you know again call them on a phone number or something or walk over to where they live if you're nearby

00:52:23 ◼   ► You know there's other ways you can do that, but what you do need Apple to do is say

00:52:27 ◼   ► "Oh, we haven't seen this person use this device before."

00:52:31 ◼   ► So if you think you're just messaging with Doshimo

00:52:34 ◼   ► on their usual phone, you're not.

00:52:35 ◼   ► And what you want to do with that information is up to you.

00:52:38 ◼   ► - They also announced hardware two-factor authentication

00:52:41 ◼   ► with security keys.

00:52:41 ◼   ► This will be available globally in early 2023.

00:52:44 ◼   ► Apple writes, "Today, with more than 95%

00:52:47 ◼   ► "of active iCloud accounts using two-factor authentication,

00:52:50 ◼   ► "it is the most widely used two-factor account security

00:52:52 ◼   ► "system in the world that we're aware of."

00:52:54 ◼   ► I just thought that was kind of neat.

00:52:55 ◼   ► Now with security keys,

00:52:56 ◼   ► users will have the choice to make use of third-party hardware security keys in order

00:53:02 ◼   ► to enhance this protection. For users who opt-in, security keys strengthens Apple's two-factor auth

00:53:06 ◼   ► by requiring a hardware security key as one of the two factors. This takes our two-factor auth even

00:53:11 ◼   ► further, preventing even an advanced attacker from obtaining a user's second factor in a phishing

00:53:15 ◼   ► scam. And here again, they show a screenshot and there's a little like a pop-up or sheet

00:53:20 ◼   ► that says sign in and certain activate one of your security keys. If you have an NFC key,

00:53:24 ◼   ► bring it near the top of this iPhone.

00:53:25 ◼   ► All right, so I don't personally have

00:53:28 ◼   ► any of these hardware security keys.

00:53:29 ◼   ► I used to many, many, many jobs ago,

00:53:31 ◼   ► and it was a little clunky, but it worked okay at the time.

00:53:34 ◼   ► My understanding is they're very fancy now.

00:53:37 ◼   ► I mean, heck, it apparently you can get some

00:53:39 ◼   ► that have a lightning connector, which is kind of neat.

00:53:42 ◼   ► I don't know, Jon, you were the one

00:53:43 ◼   ► with the most recent real job.

00:53:45 ◼   ► Do you have, did you ever use one of these?

00:53:47 ◼   ► Do you have any interest in using one of these?

00:53:48 ◼   ► What's the story here?

00:53:49 ◼   ► - No, I mean, like, I think, well, obviously,

00:53:52 ◼   ► say we all have had, but Marco certainly hasn't.

00:53:55 ◼   ► Back in the day before authenticator apps

00:53:58 ◼   ► were very common on smartphones, the ones that

00:54:00 ◼   ► give you the set of numbers that roll over every minute

00:54:02 ◼   ► or whatever, back before those were common,

00:54:05 ◼   ► and certainly back before they were built into iOS and MacOS,

00:54:07 ◼   ► you'd get a little hardware dongle

00:54:09 ◼   ► that had those numbers on it with a little battery in it

00:54:12 ◼   ► or whatever.

00:54:13 ◼   ► This is not that.

00:54:14 ◼   ► What they've added is support for a hardware security key.

00:54:17 ◼   ► So basically, to log in successfully,

00:54:19 ◼   ► instead of-- it used to be like, oh, I'll enter my password,

00:54:21 ◼   ► and then I'll get a text message or enter my password

00:54:24 ◼   ► and then it will prompt me to enter one of those

00:54:25 ◼   ► six digit codes from like an authenticator app

00:54:28 ◼   ► or from this little dongle, right?

00:54:30 ◼   ► This says to log in you would need your password

00:54:34 ◼   ► or whatever and also a hardware thing that you own

00:54:38 ◼   ► that has a secret on it and you plug it in and say,

00:54:40 ◼   ► if you don't have that thing,

00:54:42 ◼   ► even if someone knows your password,

00:54:44 ◼   ► even if someone has somehow has access

00:54:46 ◼   ► to your like six digit rolling authentication thing,

00:54:49 ◼   ► like they somehow got access to that

00:54:51 ◼   ► 'cause they stole the QR code or whatever, right?

00:54:53 ◼   ► They still need the little dongly thing,

00:54:56 ◼   ► the little YubiKey is the brand name,

00:54:57 ◼   ► but like, you know, they still need an actual hardware thing.

00:55:00 ◼   ► It's just like, it's like a physical key kind of, right?

00:55:02 ◼   ► But it's just, you know, a drive with some,

00:55:05 ◼   ► with a secret on it, right?

00:55:06 ◼   ► That's what this is.

00:55:08 ◼   ► And for people who want that,

00:55:09 ◼   ► it does add an extra layer of protection.

00:55:12 ◼   ► This is where we get into the territory

00:55:14 ◼   ► for this whole announcement.

00:55:15 ◼   ► It's like, when you're hearing all these things,

00:55:16 ◼   ► just because a security feature exists

00:55:18 ◼   ► does not mean you have to use it.

00:55:20 ◼   ► Think about the trade-offs you're making

00:55:23 ◼   ► before you decide to do this,

00:55:24 ◼   ► because having to plug in a physical thing

00:55:27 ◼   ► into your phone or computer

00:55:29 ◼   ► to get logged into your iCloud account

00:55:31 ◼   ► is a big step up in security

00:55:33 ◼   ► and a big step down in convenience, right?

00:55:36 ◼   ► So if you are not a reporter, a human rights activist,

00:55:40 ◼   ► an important politician, a celebrity,

00:55:42 ◼   ► think about whether you wanna do this, right?

00:55:44 ◼   ► And the other thing I'll say

00:55:45 ◼   ► about these increased security things is,

00:55:47 ◼   ► the people, well, not the people should do it the most,

00:55:49 ◼   ► but there are definitely large classes of people

00:55:51 ◼   ► who probably should do this, like for example,

00:55:54 ◼   ► celebrities who absolutely will not,

00:55:56 ◼   ► because it's too annoying.

00:55:57 ◼   ► Celebrities don't want to be annoyed by technology,

00:56:00 ◼   ► but people hacking celebrities' phones

00:56:02 ◼   ► to get their pictures is a thing that happens,

00:56:04 ◼   ► so they should do it, but they won't.

00:56:05 ◼   ► But tech nerds, on the other hand,

00:56:07 ◼   ► probably no one's hacking your phone

00:56:09 ◼   ► to get your photos of you, because they're not as valuable

00:56:12 ◼   ► as the photos of celebrities,

00:56:14 ◼   ► but tech nerds will do it, and inconvenience themselves,

00:56:16 ◼   ► and everyone else.

00:56:17 ◼   ► So, I'm not saying whether you particularly should

00:56:20 ◼   ► or shouldn't do this, but think about the trade-offs

00:56:22 ◼   ► because this is not a one-sided thing.

00:56:24 ◼   ► There is increased security,

00:56:26 ◼   ► and then the trade-off is decreased convenience.

00:56:29 ◼   ► So choose wisely.

00:56:30 ◼   ► And to that end, related to things about like,

00:56:33 ◼   ► trading off security for convenience

00:56:34 ◼   ► for protecting your account, Apple also has a way,

00:56:37 ◼   ► I don't know if this is new or not,

00:56:38 ◼   ► but it was in one of the same documents, I'm linked to it,

00:56:40 ◼   ► to make a recovery key.

00:56:43 ◼   ► And this may sound like the recovery codes

00:56:44 ◼   ► that you can send, but it's not quite the same.

00:56:46 ◼   ► If you get the recovery key,

00:56:48 ◼   ► it means it turns off the other recovery process.

00:56:51 ◼   ► Apple has an existing recovery process.

00:56:53 ◼   ► It's like, I forgot all my stuff.

00:56:54 ◼   ► My phone is at the bottom of the ocean.

00:56:57 ◼   ► I don't remember anything.

00:56:58 ◼   ► How can I get my account back?

00:56:59 ◼   ► Apple has this complicated process

00:57:01 ◼   ► where you try to prove who you are

00:57:02 ◼   ► to get back into your account.

00:57:04 ◼   ► That is exactly the venue that hackers

00:57:06 ◼   ► would try to social engineer their way into

00:57:08 ◼   ► because they may not know your password.

00:57:10 ◼   ► They may not have your phone.

00:57:12 ◼   ► They may not even be able to clone your SIM or whatever.

00:57:14 ◼   ► but if they haven't know enough about you,

00:57:16 ◼   ► they can initiate Apple's recovery protocol

00:57:19 ◼   ► to try to get into your account by claiming,

00:57:21 ◼   ► "Oh, I dropped my phone in the ocean,

00:57:22 ◼   ► "I don't remember my password," or whatever.

00:57:24 ◼   ► So that process is there to help save your butt

00:57:27 ◼   ► when you forget everything,

00:57:28 ◼   ► but that process is also a way that people get hacked.

00:57:31 ◼   ► So what they do is offer a thing that say,

00:57:32 ◼   ► "Hey, we can turn off recovery for you

00:57:35 ◼   ► "and instead give you this 28-character code

00:57:37 ◼   ► "that you can use to reset your password

00:57:39 ◼   ► "that is up to you to put in a save for something,

00:57:41 ◼   ► "but if you lose that 28-character code,

00:57:43 ◼   ► "You can't recover it the way we have for other people.

00:57:45 ◼   ► "We turn off recovery.

00:57:46 ◼   ► "We are securing your account by trusting you

00:57:50 ◼   ► "with a 28 character code.

00:57:51 ◼   ► "Don't lose it because if you lose it, you're out of luck."

00:57:54 ◼   ► And that is one of the more dangerous, I think, trade-offs

00:57:57 ◼   ► that a normal person can make.

00:57:58 ◼   ► It's the trade-off that you should make

00:58:00 ◼   ► if you're like a head of state or someone who's in danger

00:58:04 ◼   ► from an oppressive government or you should do it then.

00:58:06 ◼   ► But the average person who just think it's cool

00:58:09 ◼   ► to have super good security probably shouldn't do this

00:58:12 ◼   ► because the chances of you losing all of your iCloud photos,

00:58:15 ◼   ► and we'll get to that in a second,

00:58:16 ◼   ► because you lost your 28 character recovery code,

00:58:21 ◼   ► are probably higher than the chances

00:58:22 ◼   ► that China's gonna hack you.

00:58:25 ◼   ► - Yep, I think that's fair.

00:58:26 ◼   ► And then finally, and this is the real juicy stuff,

00:58:29 ◼   ► advanced data protection for iCloud.

00:58:32 ◼   ► It is available right now in beta for the rest of the US

00:58:36 ◼   ► by the end of the year and the rest of the world

00:58:37 ◼   ► in early 2023.

00:58:39 ◼   ► So the TLDR on this is end-to-end encryption on iCloud almost everywhere with some gotchas.

00:58:46 ◼   ► So from Apple's newsroom announcement, "For users who opt in, advanced data protection keeps most

00:58:51 ◼   ► iCloud data protected even in the case of a data breach in the cloud. iCloud already protects 14

00:58:57 ◼   ► sensitive data categories using end-to-end encryption by default. For users who enable

00:59:01 ◼   ► advanced data protection, the total number of data categories protected using end-to-end encryption

00:59:05 ◼   ► rises to 23, including iCloud backup, notes, and photos. Boom! There you go. So there's a

00:59:14 ◼   ► KBase article or whatever, a support article that we'll link in the show notes that shows a chart

00:59:19 ◼   ► that is very, very helpful. And it has several columns. It has data category is one of the

00:59:24 ◼   ► columns. So iCloud mail, contacts, calendars, et cetera. And then it shows for standard data

00:59:28 ◼   ► protection, where is it encrypted and who has the key? And then in advanced data protection,

00:59:35 ◼   ► Where is it encrypted, which generally speaking

00:59:37 ◼   ► is either the same or a little bit better,

00:59:40 ◼   ► and then who has the key, which generally speaking

00:59:43 ◼   ► is no longer Apple and is now you.

00:59:45 ◼   ► Again, there's some caveats and gotchas.

00:59:47 ◼   ► Do we wanna talk about the specifics about this?

00:59:51 ◼   ► Would you rather me continue with the overview?

00:59:53 ◼   ► - Yeah, well let's talk about, so what we just said,

00:59:55 ◼   ► oh, 14 categories of data, and now 23.

00:59:57 ◼   ► It sounds like it's a not a big deal.

01:00:00 ◼   ► Like who cares, what are those categories?

01:00:01 ◼   ► When we say categories of data, we're talking about

01:00:03 ◼   ► like things on your phone or on your Mac that are end-to-end encrypted, right?

01:00:08 ◼   ► And mostly what we care about is we talk about this in the past and we'd say,

01:00:11 ◼   ► "Oh, Apple has everything encrypted and everything's safe."

01:00:14 ◼   ► We'd say, "Oh, except for your photos and your messages,"

01:00:18 ◼   ► which is kind of two really big categories of things that people might want to protect, right?

01:00:23 ◼   ► Because if the government comes knocking and says, "Apple, please give us the contents

01:00:29 ◼   ► of this person's messages and the contents of this person's photos,"

01:00:32 ◼   ► Apple had the ability to do that because they had the keys.

01:00:35 ◼   ► And we said, oh, messages is end-to-end encrypted,

01:00:37 ◼   ► unless you enable iCloud backup,

01:00:39 ◼   ► because the backups aren't end-to-end encrypted

01:00:41 ◼   ► and Apple could just give them the backups.

01:00:43 ◼   ► And so we were always wondering,

01:00:45 ◼   ► when is Apple gonna finally get around

01:00:46 ◼   ► to end-to-end encrypting this?

01:00:47 ◼   ► And when they were doing the CSAM stuff,

01:00:50 ◼   ► the child sexual abuse material stuff

01:00:53 ◼   ► that we talked about many moons ago,

01:00:55 ◼   ► we saw in the plumbing for that feature,

01:00:58 ◼   ► that very controversial feature,

01:00:59 ◼   ► but we're more on it in a little bit,

01:01:01 ◼   ► We saw in the plumbing of that feature preparing

01:01:04 ◼   ► for the ability to do end-to-end encryption on photos.

01:01:06 ◼   ► And now that day has finally come.

01:01:08 ◼   ► The CSAM stuff is a different story.

01:01:10 ◼   ► We'll get to in a little bit.

01:01:11 ◼   ► But now finally, iCloud backups,

01:01:14 ◼   ► and why do you care about that?

01:01:15 ◼   ► Because that's where your messages are backed up.

01:01:16 ◼   ► iCloud backups are end-to-end encrypted.

01:01:18 ◼   ► Photos are end-to-end encrypted.

01:01:20 ◼   ► Notes are end-to-end encrypted.

01:01:21 ◼   ► The big categories of stuff that previously was,

01:01:25 ◼   ► Apple could access.

01:01:26 ◼   ► Now, if you enable advanced data protection for iCloud,

01:01:29 ◼   ► Apple can't access it.

01:01:30 ◼   ► They literally don't have the key.

01:01:31 ◼   ► If the government comes to them and says,

01:01:32 ◼   ► "We need to see these people's photos

01:01:33 ◼   ► "and you've enabled advanced data protection of iCloud,"

01:01:36 ◼   ► Apple literally can't give them.

01:01:38 ◼   ► They can't see your photos, period.

01:01:39 ◼   ► They don't have the key, only you have it.

01:01:41 ◼   ► And in the past, that hasn't been true

01:01:43 ◼   ► for like, what are those 14 categories?

01:01:45 ◼   ► Your passwords.

01:01:46 ◼   ► iCloud key chain has always been like this.

01:01:48 ◼   ► Your health data, I think, has already been like this.

01:01:50 ◼   ► You're probably looking at the Oracle case.

01:01:52 ◼   ► A bunch of stuff was always like this.

01:01:54 ◼   ► This is not Apple's first time doing this.

01:01:56 ◼   ► It's just that there were these big categories of data

01:01:58 ◼   ► that weren't like that and Apple sort of,

01:02:01 ◼   ► you know, the Craig Federighi interview,

01:02:03 ◼   ► which we'll get to in a little bit,

01:02:04 ◼   ► was saying like, oh, we were using this feature

01:02:07 ◼   ► and other things to sort of get good at it

01:02:09 ◼   ► and now we're finally ready to roll it out everywhere,

01:02:12 ◼   ► almost everywhere.

01:02:13 ◼   ► - Yeah, just very quickly.

01:02:14 ◼   ► So like you said, a lot of stuff was already

01:02:16 ◼   ► end-to-end encrypted, including,

01:02:18 ◼   ► I'm happy to report, your Memoji.

01:02:19 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:02:20 ◼   ► But it's the stuff, the categories,

01:02:23 ◼   ► nine or whatever categories that would be

01:02:25 ◼   ► end-to-end encrypted that previously were not.

01:02:27 ◼   ► our wallet passes.

01:02:28 ◼   ► I'm pretty sure that's not your credit card,

01:02:30 ◼   ► but like your boarding passes and things like that.

01:02:32 ◼   ► Voice memo, Siri shortcuts, Safari bookmarks,

01:02:35 ◼   ► reminders, notes, photos, iCloud drive,

01:02:37 ◼   ► iCloud backup, including device and messages backup,

01:02:41 ◼   ► and oh, I'm sorry, and that's it.

01:02:42 ◼   ► And then the three that remain

01:02:43 ◼   ► that will never ever, ever be end-to-end encrypted,

01:02:45 ◼   ► or at least not as of right now,

01:02:47 ◼   ► are calendars, contacts, and mail.

01:02:49 ◼   ► And the short-short version on why is because,

01:02:51 ◼   ► oh, we have to integrate with the rest of the world.

01:02:54 ◼   ► And so we need to be able to insert data,

01:02:57 ◼   ► remove data, et cetera, et cetera.

01:02:58 ◼   ► - Yeah, before we get to those caveats,

01:03:00 ◼   ► I think there's a question in the chat room

01:03:01 ◼   ► that's addressed by the Wall Street Journal article,

01:03:03 ◼   ► which I think is behind a paywall,

01:03:05 ◼   ► but snippets have been extracted.

01:03:07 ◼   ► They said, "The new encryption system will roll out

01:03:09 ◼   ► "as an option in the U.S. by year's end,

01:03:11 ◼   ► "and then worldwide, including China, in 2023."

01:03:15 ◼   ► 'Cause that's the question, does this include China?

01:03:17 ◼   ► And according to Federighi in his interview

01:03:19 ◼   ► with the Wall Street Journal

01:03:20 ◼   ► that we'll link to in the show notes,

01:03:21 ◼   ► he said, "Yeah, no, we're planning on rolling it out

01:03:23 ◼   ► "in China."

01:03:24 ◼   ► I didn't sound super confident.

01:03:26 ◼   ► It's like, oh, I haven't heard anything

01:03:27 ◼   ► from the Chinese government,

01:03:28 ◼   ► but I do wonder how this is gonna work

01:03:29 ◼   ► because Apple's had to make a lot of compromises

01:03:33 ◼   ► with their security to be in China,

01:03:35 ◼   ► that China gets to run the data centers or whatever,

01:03:37 ◼   ► but China running the data centers matters a lot less

01:03:40 ◼   ► if the data centers don't have the keys to your data.

01:03:43 ◼   ► And somehow I don't see this going well for Apple

01:03:48 ◼   ► 'cause once China realizes what features are in this,

01:03:53 ◼   ► Maybe they could request that, okay,

01:03:55 ◼   ► but in iOS in China, just don't enable this feature?

01:03:58 ◼   ► I don't know what the plan is there,

01:04:00 ◼   ► but stay tuned for more news and that.

01:04:02 ◼   ► But as of right now, the intention is

01:04:04 ◼   ► that this will roll out worldwide, including China.

01:04:07 ◼   ► - Yeah, there's no way this,

01:04:08 ◼   ► there's no way China gets this enabled for them

01:04:11 ◼   ► for very long.

01:04:12 ◼   ► Maybe it rolls out initially,

01:04:14 ◼   ► because the government hasn't gotten wind of it yet.

01:04:16 ◼   ► I guarantee you, as soon as they get wind of it,

01:04:18 ◼   ► which has probably happened today,

01:04:20 ◼   ► I guarantee you they're gonna have a problem with this.

01:04:24 ◼   ► You look at the Chinese government's history

01:04:26 ◼   ► with data they can't access being generated

01:04:29 ◼   ► by their citizens, not a chance.

01:04:32 ◼   ► There is no way this stays like this.

01:04:35 ◼   ► - Yep, I agree with you.

01:04:36 ◼   ► And we should just make it clear

01:04:38 ◼   ► that there was a article by Joanna Stern

01:04:40 ◼   ► in the Wall Street Journal, and we'll link that,

01:04:42 ◼   ► both the raw version and the Apple News version,

01:04:45 ◼   ► because I believe a lot of times

01:04:47 ◼   ► you can get to the Apple News version

01:04:48 ◼   ► If you're, you know, what is it, Apple One subscriber, what have you, we'll link that

01:04:53 ◼   ► and both of them in the show notes.

01:04:54 ◼   ► And she also had a YouTube video, which was in the article and also is on, excuse me,

01:04:58 ◼   ► there was a video that was in the article and also on YouTube.

01:05:00 ◼   ► It was like six and a half minutes and that was an interview or a discussion between her

01:05:04 ◼   ► and Craig Federighi.

01:05:06 ◼   ► And that was very good.

01:05:07 ◼   ► And we'll put that in the show notes as well.

01:05:08 ◼   ► Additionally, in the show notes will be the platform security guide, which is I think

01:05:12 ◼   ► something that has existed for quite a while now, but it has new stuff for advanced data

01:05:16 ◼   ► protection on iCloud.

01:05:17 ◼   ► I took a quick spin through this earlier today,

01:05:20 ◼   ► and I thought that there were some interesting pieces

01:05:23 ◼   ► to this, so reading from various portions of that guide.

01:05:27 ◼   ► I work collaboration, the shared albums feature in photos,

01:05:30 ◼   ► and sharing content with quote, anyone with link quote.

01:05:33 ◼   ► Do not support advanced data protection.

01:05:35 ◼   ► When you use these features, the encryption keys

01:05:36 ◼   ► for the shared content are securely uploaded

01:05:38 ◼   ► to Apple data centers so that iCloud can facilitate

01:05:41 ◼   ► real-time collaboration or web sharing.

01:05:43 ◼   ► This means the shared content is not end-to-end encrypted

01:05:46 ◼   ► even when advanced data protection is enabled.

01:05:48 ◼   ► Now, quick note, point of fact,

01:05:50 ◼   ► I had read this as shared photo library,

01:05:53 ◼   ► which is not what it says.

01:05:54 ◼   ► - It's a shared album feature.

01:05:55 ◼   ► - Shared albums, which makes a lot more sense.

01:05:58 ◼   ► - The very unfortunately named feature

01:05:59 ◼   ► that's gonna be a problem if and when Apple

01:06:01 ◼   ► actually adds album sharing to shared photo library,

01:06:04 ◼   ► 'cause what the hell you gonna call it?

01:06:06 ◼   ► So unlike the thing that you said before,

01:06:07 ◼   ► like they said, oh, mail, contacts, and calendar

01:06:10 ◼   ► aren't end-to-end encrypted

01:06:11 ◼   ► because they need to interoperate.

01:06:13 ◼   ► Some of those, if you squint, make some kind of sense.

01:06:16 ◼   ► Basically, here's the main thing that prevents them

01:06:20 ◼   ► from doing end-to-end is if you need to have a URL

01:06:23 ◼   ► that anyone can load and get info,

01:06:26 ◼   ► you can't use end-to-end encryption

01:06:29 ◼   ► unless you're willing to force everyone who loads that URL

01:06:32 ◼   ► to somehow get into your system enough

01:06:35 ◼   ► that you can validate and share keys with them,

01:06:37 ◼   ► you know what I mean?

01:06:38 ◼   ► But a lot of this stuff, the way it works,

01:06:40 ◼   ► like integration with other systems is no,

01:06:42 ◼   ► they just expect to be able to load the URL.

01:06:43 ◼   ► So the anyone with a link thing is a great example.

01:06:45 ◼   ► Whenever you see one of those like share this

01:06:47 ◼   ► with anyone who has the link can view it,

01:06:49 ◼   ► that means you're using basically security through obscurity.

01:06:51 ◼   ► If you don't know the URL,

01:06:52 ◼   ► you're probably not gonna find this

01:06:54 ◼   ► if we've done a good job,

01:06:55 ◼   ► but anybody who knows the URL,

01:06:57 ◼   ► they can just load it, right?

01:06:58 ◼   ► Lots of things work that way.

01:07:00 ◼   ► You can't make an anyone with link link that says,

01:07:03 ◼   ► oh, well, yeah, I know what you wanna get at here,

01:07:06 ◼   ► but you need to either sign into your Apple ID

01:07:08 ◼   ► and then trade a secret key with the person

01:07:10 ◼   ► who's sharing this with you,

01:07:12 ◼   ► or get an Apple ID if you don't have one,

01:07:14 ◼   ► and at that point, people are already leaving, right?

01:07:15 ◼   ► 'Cause the whole point of Anyone with a Link is,

01:07:18 ◼   ► give it to someone, they don't need to have an Apple ID,

01:07:19 ◼   ► they don't need to get an Apple ID,

01:07:21 ◼   ► they don't need to exchange anything with you,

01:07:22 ◼   ► they don't need to, like,

01:07:23 ◼   ► you don't even need to know who they are.

01:07:25 ◼   ► Anyone with a Link means Anyone with a Link.

01:07:26 ◼   ► Some aspects of mail, contact, and calendar are like that,

01:07:30 ◼   ► and it's not just other people that interact with them,

01:07:32 ◼   ► but there's third-party software and services

01:07:34 ◼   ► that expect to be able to interact

01:07:36 ◼   ► with the various protocols that run mail, contacts,

01:07:39 ◼   ► and calendaring that would break if they tried to roll this out.

01:07:42 ◼   ► So I kind of understand that.

01:07:44 ◼   ► And shared albums, similarly, you can make a shared album,

01:07:47 ◼   ► and there's a web view of that.

01:07:49 ◼   ► So if you want to share pictures with someone in your family who

01:07:51 ◼   ► does not have an Apple device, or maybe they don't even

01:07:52 ◼   ► have a phone at all, they just have a computer,

01:07:54 ◼   ► or whatever, unlikely it's probably the reverse.

01:07:56 ◼   ► But anyway, those features don't do

01:07:59 ◼   ► undead encryption, because the whole point of them is

01:08:01 ◼   ► for sharing.

01:08:02 ◼   ► And then the iWork collaboration,

01:08:04 ◼   ► that just seems like something that's sort of, well,

01:08:06 ◼   ► I guess it's the anyone with a link thing.

01:08:09 ◼   ► So the things that don't use it are kind of the things

01:08:13 ◼   ► that you would expect.

01:08:14 ◼   ► But this is another caveat that people tend not

01:08:16 ◼   ► to think about when we talked about, oh, now finally

01:08:19 ◼   ► my messages will be end-to-end encrypted.

01:08:21 ◼   ► So I'm secure, right?

01:08:22 ◼   ► Well, your messages kind of like your email.

01:08:27 ◼   ► If you secure-- if you had secured your email somehow

01:08:30 ◼   ► using some secure email system or you'd secure your messages,

01:08:33 ◼   ► It doesn't really matter because everyone you've ever emailed also has those emails.

01:08:39 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

01:08:40 ◼   ► Like half your email is not yours.

01:08:41 ◼   ► And the same thing with messages.

01:08:44 ◼   ► Everybody you talk to over messages, if they're not also encrypting, your messages could be

01:08:49 ◼   ► subpoenaed through them.

01:08:50 ◼   ► That's part of the nature of communication.

01:08:52 ◼   ► You give them your half of the conversation and then it's up to them to safely store that

01:08:57 ◼   ► somewhere.

01:08:58 ◼   ► So that's true of email and that's true of messages.

01:09:00 ◼   ► So if you think, "Now I've end-to-end encrypted my messages.

01:09:02 ◼   ► The government can never see what I write in messages.

01:09:05 ◼   ► Has everyone you ever talked to on iMessage

01:09:08 ◼   ► also enabled advanced data protection?

01:09:10 ◼   ► If not, government can still get it.

01:09:11 ◼   ► So just keep that in mind.

01:09:13 ◼   ► - Continuing from the same document,

01:09:15 ◼   ► when advanced data protection is enabled,

01:09:17 ◼   ► access to your data via iCloud.com is disabled by default.

01:09:20 ◼   ► You have the option to turn on data access on iCloud.com,

01:09:23 ◼   ► which allows the web browser that you're using

01:09:25 ◼   ► and Apple to have temporary access

01:09:27 ◼   ► to data-specific encryption keys provided by your device

01:09:30 ◼   ► to decrypt and view your information.

01:09:32 ◼   ► Devices where the user is signed in with their Apple ID

01:09:34 ◼   ► must be updated to iOS 16.2, iPadOS 16.2, Mac OS 13.1,

01:09:39 ◼   ► TVOS 16.2, watchOS 9.2, and the latest version of iCloud

01:09:43 ◼   ► for Windows.

01:09:43 ◼   ► This requirement prevents a previous version of iOS, iPadOS,

01:09:46 ◼   ► Mac OS, TVOS, or watchOS from mishandling the newly created

01:09:50 ◼   ► service keys by re-uploading them to the available

01:09:52 ◼   ► after authentication HSM--

01:09:54 ◼   ► I'm not sure what that means off the top of my head--

01:09:55 ◼   ► in a misguided attempt to repair the account state.

01:09:58 ◼   ► Whoopsie-doopsies.

01:10:00 ◼   ► So yeah, so another couple of caveats as well.

01:10:01 ◼   ► Basically everything that you touch

01:10:03 ◼   ► needs to be latest and greatest,

01:10:04 ◼   ► and I hope you don't like iCloud.com unless,

01:10:07 ◼   ► and if you do, you have to turn it on explicitly.

01:10:09 ◼   ► - HSM is hardware security module.

01:10:11 ◼   ► Yeah, this is the thing that's really gonna trip people up.

01:10:14 ◼   ► You need to, just in case this isn't clear,

01:10:16 ◼   ► if you have like an old phone in a drawer

01:10:18 ◼   ► that's running an old version of iOS,

01:10:21 ◼   ► and it's still logged into your Apple ID,

01:10:22 ◼   ► you can't enable this feature.

01:10:24 ◼   ► You have to be updated everywhere.

01:10:26 ◼   ► So what that means is finding the old devices

01:10:29 ◼   ► and either erasing them or signing out

01:10:31 ◼   ► of your Apple ID on them.

01:10:32 ◼   ► They're trying to basically prevent you thinking you're

01:10:34 ◼   ► secure, where really you have some old device that

01:10:37 ◼   ► doesn't have any of this code that's

01:10:38 ◼   ► leaking your information out or subverting it or whatever.

01:10:41 ◼   ► And this is going to be, I think,

01:10:43 ◼   ► the main barrier to adoption.

01:10:44 ◼   ► So this isn't enabled by default, first of all.

01:10:46 ◼   ► And second of all, for all the tech nerds, they're like, yeah,

01:10:47 ◼   ► I'm going to try it.

01:10:48 ◼   ► Tech nerds are very likely to have a bunch of devices that

01:10:51 ◼   ► haven't been updated.

01:10:51 ◼   ► You think, oh, tech nerds update their stuff right away.

01:10:53 ◼   ► They're going to have everything updated soon.

01:10:55 ◼   ► No, it's all the devices that are in drawers

01:10:57 ◼   ► that you forgot about that are still signed into your Apple ID.

01:11:00 ◼   ► So you have to go and hunt them down and sign out.

01:11:03 ◼   ► And related to that, the last time I personally

01:11:06 ◼   ► ran across this, and probably a lot of tech nerds did, is

01:11:08 ◼   ► a feature that was laying the groundwork for this, which

01:11:11 ◼   ► is the-- I forget what Apple calls it,

01:11:12 ◼   ► but it's like the, hey, designate some other person

01:11:15 ◼   ► to be like your backup if you forget everything.

01:11:17 ◼   ► What is that one called?

01:11:19 ◼   ► Recovery contact, right?

01:11:20 ◼   ► Yeah, something like that.

01:11:21 ◼   ► It's a feature of iOS and Mac.

01:11:22 ◼   ► You basically designate a person to say,

01:11:24 ◼   ► I trust this person enough so that if I lose all my stuff

01:11:27 ◼   ► and I lose all my recovery code,

01:11:29 ◼   ► this is part of the recovery process.

01:11:30 ◼   ► I think you also give this up

01:11:31 ◼   ► if you do that 28 character thing, so be careful.

01:11:33 ◼   ► But anyway, for normal people who are wise

01:11:35 ◼   ► and are not gonna do that,

01:11:36 ◼   ► you would designate a recovery conduct.

01:11:38 ◼   ► But to even do that, you had to make sure

01:11:40 ◼   ► everything was like updated.

01:11:42 ◼   ► I forget what the requirements were,

01:11:42 ◼   ► but you had to go through and update a bunch of stuff.

01:11:44 ◼   ► So the first time I tried to go through it, it says,

01:11:46 ◼   ► you can't use this feature until devices X, Y, Z, and Q

01:11:50 ◼   ► are all like logged out of your app ID.

01:11:52 ◼   ► So I had to go around my house and hunt those things down,

01:11:54 ◼   ► or you can even go on the website.

01:11:56 ◼   ► I think it's either at appleid.apple.com or iCloud.com.

01:11:59 ◼   ► You can delete devices from your Apple ID,

01:12:01 ◼   ► which basically invalidates their keys.

01:12:03 ◼   ► You would have to do that before you could even

01:12:05 ◼   ► designate a recovery contact.

01:12:06 ◼   ► Well, this whole process is gonna have to repeat,

01:12:09 ◼   ► only now what you're gonna need are a bunch of versions

01:12:11 ◼   ► of OSs that aren't even out yet.

01:12:13 ◼   ► In particular, the one that might trip people up

01:12:15 ◼   ► is Mac OS 13.1, because who updates their Macs?

01:12:18 ◼   ► You gotta update everything.

01:12:19 ◼   ► So if you're excited about this feature,

01:12:21 ◼   ► And I think unlike the hardware recovery key

01:12:23 ◼   ► and unlike the hardware recovery device

01:12:26 ◼   ► and the 28 character code,

01:12:27 ◼   ► I think advanced data protection is reasonable

01:12:29 ◼   ► for pretty much everybody to do

01:12:31 ◼   ► and it's probably a good idea

01:12:32 ◼   ► because you are still protected

01:12:33 ◼   ► by Apple's recovery procedure

01:12:35 ◼   ► and I think it will force you,

01:12:36 ◼   ► I don't know if this is in the notes here,

01:12:38 ◼   ► but I think it will force you to have a recovery contact.

01:12:40 ◼   ► Like to enable advanced data protection,

01:12:43 ◼   ► it will either force you or strongly suggest

01:12:46 ◼   ► that you have a recovery contact.

01:12:48 ◼   ► So you'll still mostly be protected

01:12:50 ◼   ► And Apple's customer support will still mostly not be totally

01:12:53 ◼   ► destroyed by people locking themselves out of all their data.

01:12:55 ◼   ► But you will need to update everything everywhere to get this to run.

01:12:59 ◼   ► Yeah, it was in the video interview with Joanna Stern that, um, she said to,

01:13:04 ◼   ► to, to Craig, well, what took so damn long and almost verbatim, I believe.

01:13:09 ◼   ► And he said, well, one of the things we have to worry about is customer support

01:13:12 ◼   ► because, you know, you're now putting the onus on yourself to be able to recover.

01:13:17 ◼   ► And so I believe that Craig had said,

01:13:19 ◼   ► "You must choose a designated contact

01:13:22 ◼   ► "or alternatively print out this 28 character,"

01:13:26 ◼   ► whatever it is, "recovery code."

01:13:28 ◼   ► And they will compel you to do one or the other

01:13:32 ◼   ► because if you lose your backup person

01:13:35 ◼   ► and/or your backup code,

01:13:37 ◼   ► there's literally nothing Apple can do by design.

01:13:40 ◼   ► The whole point is that they have no mechanism

01:13:44 ◼   ► to get into your data.

01:13:45 ◼   ► And it was interesting that for all of the different things

01:13:49 ◼   ► that were said, naturally none of them involved,

01:13:53 ◼   ► oh, well, and by the way,

01:13:54 ◼   ► law enforcement also cannot get into your data.

01:13:56 ◼   ► Like this is all about,

01:13:58 ◼   ► oh, just having good security practices.

01:14:00 ◼   ► They never said either directly or indirectly.

01:14:02 ◼   ► This is about preventing law enforcement

01:14:04 ◼   ► from getting at your stuff if you don't want them to,

01:14:06 ◼   ► which I thought was kind of funny.

01:14:08 ◼   ► Anyway, Jason over at Six Colors had a really good summary

01:14:12 ◼   ► and he made a few points I wanted to quickly read.

01:14:14 ◼   ► Another reason Apple has fought against encrypting

01:14:16 ◼   ► all the things is that it has some serious side effects

01:14:18 ◼   ► for users, most notably that Apple can't unlock your data

01:14:20 ◼   ► if you no longer have the password to your Apple ID.

01:14:22 ◼   ► Oh, here we go, to solve this problem,

01:14:23 ◼   ► see I should have read ahead my own show notes

01:14:25 ◼   ► and I was the one who put them in, hooray.

01:14:27 ◼   ► To solve this problem, Apple's placing these new

01:14:29 ◼   ► nine encryption services in a new feature called

01:14:31 ◼   ► Advanced Data Protection that isn't on by default,

01:14:33 ◼   ► just like John said a moment ago,

01:14:34 ◼   ► and according to Joanna Stern of the Wall Street Journal,

01:14:37 ◼   ► requires that users generate at least one additional method

01:14:39 ◼   ► of unlocking their account.

01:14:39 ◼   ► Methods include a printout of a very long string

01:14:42 ◼   ► that can be stored somewhere secure,

01:14:43 ◼   ► or the designation of a different Apple ID

01:14:44 ◼   ► is having the authority to unlock the account.

01:14:47 ◼   ► Anything else about this before we talk about

01:14:49 ◼   ► the other bomb that was dropped today?

01:14:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, I am interested though,

01:14:52 ◼   ► because based on what I had earlier in the notes

01:14:54 ◼   ► about the fact that when you create that 28 character code,

01:14:57 ◼   ► it turns off account recovery,

01:14:58 ◼   ► I wonder if I'm either have that wrong

01:15:00 ◼   ► or if that will be communicated clearly

01:15:03 ◼   ► in the sort of onboarding procedure.

01:15:06 ◼   ► Because if it does turn off recovery, it's like,

01:15:08 ◼   ► all right, so obviously trusting someone else is also a risk

01:15:10 ◼   ► 'cause now that's another vector that they can get to you,

01:15:12 ◼   ► Like if someone hacks them because they don't use good security and they're a recovery thing

01:15:17 ◼   ► for you, in theory, the person you designate as a recovery contact also needs you to participate

01:15:22 ◼   ► to get access, but in practice, the whole point is that if you've forgotten everything,

01:15:27 ◼   ► just them plus knowing enough about you, like your applet, anyway, it seems like that is

01:15:32 ◼   ► another potential vector for people to hack you is whoever you trust as a security contact.

01:15:36 ◼   ► But on the other hand, if you just do the 28 character code, then you're trusting yourself

01:15:41 ◼   ► with that slip of paper and if you lose that, you can't go whining to anybody and say,

01:15:46 ◼   ► "But isn't there some kind of recovery procedure where I can show who I am and this person

01:15:50 ◼   ► will vouch for me?"

01:15:51 ◼   ► And they'll be like, "No, you took the 28-character code.

01:15:53 ◼   ► You don't have that piece of paper.

01:15:55 ◼   ► Tough luck."

01:15:56 ◼   ► And that's not a place where I want to be.

01:15:58 ◼   ► So I've already designated the backup content.

01:16:01 ◼   ► I think I picked my wife or something, but that seems much safer for me, again, for normal

01:16:05 ◼   ► people.

01:16:06 ◼   ► Those features that exist for the 28-character code and the message verification, that's

01:16:11 ◼   ► for heads of state, journalists, celebrities, probably not you.

01:16:15 ◼   ► Indeed. All right. And then the other bomb that was dropped, which I don't think was

01:16:21 ◼   ► any like official announcement anywhere, but, um, Oh no, I'm sorry. There was an official

01:16:26 ◼   ► announcement. That's right. Uh, so Apple has a statement, uh, after extensive consultation

01:16:31 ◼   ► with experts to gather feedback on child protection initiatives we proposed last year, we are

01:16:34 ◼   ► deepening our investment in the communication safety feature that we first made available

01:16:38 ◼   ► in December 2021. We have further decided not to move forward with our previously proposed CSAM

01:16:43 ◼   ► detection tool for iCloud Photos. Children can be protected without companies combing through

01:16:48 ◼   ► personal data and we will continue to working with governments, child advocates, and other companies

01:16:52 ◼   ► to help protect young people, preserve their right to privacy, and make the internet a safer place

01:16:56 ◼   ► for children and for us all." So in summary, Apple now says it stopped the development of

01:17:03 ◼   ► their CSAM system, following criticism, blah, blah, blah. Federighi said that Apple's focus

01:17:08 ◼   ► is related to protecting children, their focus related to protecting children has been on areas

01:17:13 ◼   ► such as communication, giving parents tools to protect children, and iMessage. There's a quote,

01:17:17 ◼   ► "child sexual abuse can be headed off before it occurs," he said. That's where we're putting our

01:17:22 ◼   ► energy going forward. Additionally, Wired had a different article where they wrote,

01:17:29 ◼   ► Apple has told Wired that while it is not ready to announce a specific timeline for

01:17:34 ◼   ► expanding its communication safety features, the company is working on adding the ability

01:17:39 ◼   ► to detect nudity in video sensory messages when the protection is enabled. The company

01:17:43 ◼   ► also plans to expand the offering beyond messages to its other communication applications.

01:17:47 ◼   ► Ultimately, the goal is to make it possible for third-party developers to incorporate

01:17:50 ◼   ► the communication safety tools into their own applications.

01:17:53 ◼   ► So this is a big retreat from the idea that Apple is going to scan the photos on your

01:17:58 ◼   ► your device looking for a child sexual abuse material,

01:18:02 ◼   ► changing to a very different posture,

01:18:06 ◼   ► which is the whole heading it off beyond what happens,

01:18:07 ◼   ► basically saying, as data is sent from

01:18:10 ◼   ► or perhaps received by your device,

01:18:13 ◼   ► we will look at it at that moment and try to,

01:18:16 ◼   ► like the feature that they told Wire,

01:18:18 ◼   ► like, oh, well, maybe you'll eventually have

01:18:19 ◼   ► a third-party framework where you can detect nudity,

01:18:22 ◼   ► like detecting nudity and child sexual abuse material,

01:18:25 ◼   ► two very different things, right?

01:18:27 ◼   ► 'cause you could be sending a picture of yourself naked

01:18:30 ◼   ► to your significant other,

01:18:32 ◼   ► and that is not child sexual abuse material,