ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► All right, I added some brief to follow up that should only take a moment the Apple dropping webkit

00:00:06 ◼   ► I think it's worth you trying to do the preflight. Is that what's happening here? Yes. What are you doing? Oh, that's a that's a power move

00:00:12 ◼   ► No, I'm putting a stop to that. Okay. Sorry dad. I do the preflight. What's next Marco writing the show notes?

00:00:20 ◼   ► Now I'm now the official the official preflight will begin

00:00:28 ◼   ► (clears throat)

00:00:30 ◼   ► (beeping)

00:00:32 ◼   ► - Get the bad feeling all of our good content

00:00:33 ◼   ► happened before we went live.

00:00:35 ◼   ► - Don't worry, I'm using some of that for the pre-show

00:00:37 ◼   ► in the release version.

00:00:39 ◼   ► - All right, good deal.

00:00:39 ◼   ► - Yeah, bootleg people, go listen to the release version

00:00:41 ◼   ► of like the first five minutes

00:00:42 ◼   ► and you'll hear everything that just happened.

00:00:44 ◼   ► Not even, 45 seconds.

00:00:46 ◼   ► Yeah, listen to the modem sound.

00:00:47 ◼   ► - How many people, I guess in our audience it's fine,

00:00:50 ◼   ► but we always refer to it as the modem sound.

00:00:53 ◼   ► Just the number of people who know what that is

00:00:54 ◼   ► or will recognize it when they hear it

00:00:56 ◼   ► or know what we're talking about just shrinks every day.

00:00:58 ◼   ► - Yep. - Yeah, but I think among our,

00:01:00 ◼   ► I think it's shrinking in the world,

00:01:02 ◼   ► but I think in our audience it's staying about the same,

00:01:04 ◼   ► possibly even growing.

00:01:06 ◼   ► - We need some more period piece movies

00:01:08 ◼   ► that capture that little slice of time

00:01:11 ◼   ► when the internet was a thing,

00:01:13 ◼   ► but most people were getting onto it with modems.

00:01:15 ◼   ► Like that was not a very long period of time,

00:01:17 ◼   ► but for the people who lived through it,

00:01:18 ◼   ► it was significant and no one has really done

00:01:20 ◼   ► like a period piece, I mean, setting aside like WarGames

00:01:22 ◼   ► and the Acoustic Coupler and all that,

00:01:24 ◼   ► I'm talking about the like, you know,

00:01:26 ◼   ► 2,400 bought and on.

00:01:28 ◼   ► Normal people are on the internet,

00:01:29 ◼   ► but they're using modems to do an era.

00:01:31 ◼   ► - The problem is when you make a movie about some time,

00:01:34 ◼   ► you know, three or four decades ago, whenever,

00:01:36 ◼   ► like, first of all, like, you know,

00:01:37 ◼   ► you gotta figure like, are the mid 90s or early 90s

00:01:41 ◼   ► when this was really like becoming a big thing,

00:01:44 ◼   ► is that time even cool enough to make a movie about yet?

00:01:46 ◼   ► And at some point, it might be, right?

00:01:48 ◼   ► - Oh, for sure.

00:01:49 ◼   ► It's definitely, because I feel like the 80s are fading

00:01:52 ◼   ► as we '80s kids get too old to care anymore,

00:01:55 ◼   ► and I feel like '90s is very in.

00:01:57 ◼   ► - Probably, however, the part of culture

00:02:00 ◼   ► that is represented when you do a look-back movie

00:02:02 ◼   ► by a few decades is what the cool kids were doing

00:02:04 ◼   ► at that time, and I assure you, no one hearing that sound

00:02:07 ◼   ► was a cool kid, 'cause I was that person,

00:02:09 ◼   ► and there is no way I was a cool kid.

00:02:11 ◼   ► - It doesn't have to be a cool kid's thing.

00:02:12 ◼   ► Again, I will point to "War Games."

00:02:14 ◼   ► Sometimes you make a movie intentionally

00:02:15 ◼   ► about the nerds or whatever.

00:02:16 ◼   ► - Yeah, but they're never the nerds.

00:02:18 ◼   ► They're never the, it's always like,

00:02:20 ◼   ► oh, you take the kid's glasses off,

00:02:21 ◼   ► and all of a sudden he's hot.

00:02:22 ◼   ► Like it's, you know, it's never, it's never the nerds.

00:02:25 ◼   ► - What movies are you watching?

00:02:27 ◼   ► - She's All That.

00:02:28 ◼   ► Actually isn't there a He's All That now,

00:02:29 ◼   ► but that's brand new.

00:02:30 ◼   ► I just read, and I'm never gonna be able to find it,

00:02:33 ◼   ► but I just read in the last like 48 hours,

00:02:34 ◼   ► live streams, Jon, live streams.

00:02:36 ◼   ► Something about how, and I'm gonna butcher it,

00:02:38 ◼   ► but it was, the premise was like, the movie Superbad,

00:02:42 ◼   ► which probably does not hold up at all,

00:02:44 ◼   ► but my recollection of it is very fond.

00:02:47 ◼   ► Superbad was in the brief window of time

00:02:49 ◼   ► right before just everyone was carrying phones and text messaging and so on and

00:02:53 ◼   ► so forth. And, and the, the, the, the,

00:02:57 ◼   ► the thought was that this was the last movie of, of its ilk,

00:03:02 ◼   ► right? The last time you can have a movie where not being able to communicate

00:03:06 ◼   ► is the crux of the movie. And.

00:03:10 ◼   ► Oh no, they do that all the time now.

00:03:11 ◼   ► They just have increasingly ridiculous contrivances to make that the case.

00:03:14 ◼   ► Oh, I've got no signal. My phone is gone. Or there's an EMP or whatever.

00:03:18 ◼   ► It's always some reason.

00:03:19 ◼   ► Yeah, now it's just all zombies. The zombies took out the cell towers first for some reason.

00:03:23 ◼   ► Right, exactly. But you know what I'm saying, that, you know, that alleges this person on,

00:03:28 ◼   ► like, Twitter, Mastodon or whatever.

00:03:29 ◼   ► I was watching some 80s anime with my son over his break, and it's a movie set in, I

00:03:36 ◼   ► mean, the future of the 80s, so, like, they think it starts, I don't know, in the 2000s

00:03:40 ◼   ► or something, but anyway, everything's all futuristic, right? There's giant robots, you

00:03:44 ◼   ► you know, the whole nine yards,

00:03:46 ◼   ► and they have really cool futuristic-looking phones,

00:03:49 ◼   ► but they are in phone booths.

00:03:52 ◼   ► So whenever people need to communicate,

00:03:53 ◼   ► they go to a phone booth and use this amazing

00:03:55 ◼   ► futuristic phone that like, you know,

00:03:57 ◼   ► scans their retina or responds to voice commands,

00:03:59 ◼   ► but it's in a booth and they're huge.

00:04:01 ◼   ► Like at their desk, they have a really cool-looking

00:04:04 ◼   ► space futuri kind of phone,

00:04:06 ◼   ► and it's like the size of a shoebox on their desk

00:04:08 ◼   ► with a cord connected to it, right?

00:04:10 ◼   ► 'Cause they can imagine the future,

00:04:11 ◼   ► They can imagine the future with giant robots, right?

00:04:14 ◼   ► And amazing technology and space travel

00:04:16 ◼   ► and all sorts of things and aliens,

00:04:18 ◼   ► but everyone having a phone, no.

00:04:19 ◼   ► So there are plots that involve someone trying

00:04:22 ◼   ► to call someone and they can't get them

00:04:24 ◼   ► because they're not by a pay phone or at their desk.

00:04:26 ◼   ► - Those were the days.

00:04:28 ◼   ► I just want an entire documentary on the battle

00:04:31 ◼   ► between X2 and K56 Flex, that's what I want.

00:04:35 ◼   ► - There wasn't much of a battle.

00:04:36 ◼   ► Like X2 kicked their butts, like that was the battle.

00:04:39 ◼   ► Like X2 won by a lot.

00:04:41 ◼   ► - And also the people had the K56 flex things,

00:04:44 ◼   ► it's not like they couldn't, like ISP supported that enough

00:04:47 ◼   ► like you know if you bought it and you could use it,

00:04:49 ◼   ► it's not like it was a bad purchase,

00:04:50 ◼   ► it wasn't like you got, what was it called,

00:04:52 ◼   ► like Divix Drive or something.

00:04:54 ◼   ► - Oh yeah. (laughs)

00:04:55 ◼   ► - Well no, it was a bad purchase after a while.

00:04:57 ◼   ► Initially, 'cause the thing is like,

00:05:00 ◼   ► on the receiving end, until there was that like V92

00:05:03 ◼   ► that unified them, on the receiving end,

00:05:05 ◼   ► they had to choose like certain phone lines would be X2

00:05:09 ◼   ► and the other phone lines would be K56 Flex,

00:05:11 ◼   ► and you'd have to call the right one

00:05:13 ◼   ► to match the format of your modem.

00:05:14 ◼   ► And since X2 was way more popular from the get-go,

00:05:18 ◼   ► what ended up happening was the ISPs and BBSs

00:05:22 ◼   ► would have way more X2 lines than K56 Flex lines.

00:05:25 ◼   ► - By then, your modem probably broke anyway,

00:05:27 ◼   ► so get a new one, don't worry about it.

00:05:30 ◼   ► - We are brought to you this week by Nebula,

00:05:34 ◼   ► a streaming service created and owned

00:05:35 ◼   ► by some of the internet's most thoughtful creators,

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00:05:41 ◼   ► earlier than anywhere else as well as Nebula exclusives.

00:05:44 ◼   ► These are fully produced Nebula originals

00:05:47 ◼   ► like Anita Sarkeesian's That Time When or Impact,

00:05:50 ◼   ► Rene Ritchie's Retrospective on the Launch of the iPhone.

00:05:53 ◼   ► They also have Nebula classes featuring all kinds

00:05:56 ◼   ► of online courses led by creators,

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00:06:03 ◼   ► and tons of bonus and exclusive content.

00:06:06 ◼   ► You know, I first heard about Nebula

00:06:08 ◼   ► because I noticed that a large portion of the YouTubers

00:06:12 ◼   ► that I would watch, at the end they would say,

00:06:14 ◼   ► "Hey, go find me on Nebula."

00:06:15 ◼   ► I make content there and all my best stuff goes there.

00:06:18 ◼   ► It's there first, it's there ad-free.

00:06:20 ◼   ► And this is people like Wendover Productions,

00:06:22 ◼   ► and Half as Interesting of course,

00:06:24 ◼   ► Georgia Dow, Real Engineering, Practical Engineering,

00:06:27 ◼   ► kind of all the stuff that I love to watch on YouTube,

00:06:30 ◼   ► really, they all were on Nebula.

00:06:32 ◼   ► And so I went there and it's great

00:06:34 ◼   ► because you get all this bonus content,

00:06:36 ◼   ► You get, of course, everything's ad-free.

00:06:38 ◼   ► It's exactly what you'd want as a nerd

00:06:40 ◼   ► out of a video site, a player experience.

00:06:42 ◼   ► They're on all your devices and everything.

00:06:44 ◼   ► It was all these creators I was already into

00:06:46 ◼   ► and then I got to discover new creators

00:06:48 ◼   ► that were similar quality and producing longer things.

00:06:53 ◼   ► It's a great service.

00:06:54 ◼   ► I strongly recommend, if you're nerdy enough

00:06:57 ◼   ► to listen to our show, if you don't already know

00:06:59 ◼   ► these producers, these content creators,

00:07:01 ◼   ► you're gonna love their stuff

00:07:02 ◼   ► and Nebula is a great way to get it.

00:07:04 ◼   ► It's a great deal.

00:07:05 ◼   ► So you can go there right now.

00:07:06 ◼   ► it's normally, I mean, look, normally it's a good deal.

00:07:08 ◼   ► Five bucks a month or 50 bucks a year.

00:07:11 ◼   ► But we have a special, you can get a year of Nebula

00:07:13 ◼   ► for just 40 bucks at nebula.tv/atp.

00:07:18 ◼   ► So once again, normally five bucks a month

00:07:20 ◼   ► or 50 bucks a year, that's a great price,

00:07:21 ◼   ► but it's even less now, 40 bucks for a whole year of Nebula

00:07:25 ◼   ► at nebula.tv/atp.

00:07:28 ◼   ► Thank you so much to Nebula for sponsoring our show.

00:07:30 ◼   ► - I have a little bit of follow up

00:07:35 ◼   ► with regard to my Docker adventures.

00:07:37 ◼   ► If you recall, last episode in the after show,

00:07:39 ◼   ► I was talking about how I couldn't get Docker

00:07:40 ◼   ► working properly on my Mac Mini.

00:07:42 ◼   ► A lot of people reached out to say,

00:07:44 ◼   ► "Hey, it works on my desk."

00:07:45 ◼   ► And I'm glad, I really am,

00:07:47 ◼   ► but it doesn't work on my desk.

00:07:48 ◼   ► And so a handful of people,

00:07:50 ◼   ► and I don't have names in front of me, I'm sorry,

00:07:51 ◼   ► but a handful of people recommended Colima,

00:07:53 ◼   ► which is short for containers on Linux on Mac.

00:07:58 ◼   ► And so the idea is it's what John was suggesting.

00:08:01 ◼   ► It's like a Linux VM in which you run Docker

00:08:04 ◼   ► And so as far as Docker's concerned, you're--

00:08:06 ◼   ► - I mean, that's what Docker desktop is too, right?

00:08:08 ◼   ► I was suggesting you use VMware,

00:08:10 ◼   ► like just run something that doesn't know anything

00:08:12 ◼   ► about Docker, but just says,

00:08:12 ◼   ► "Hey, I'm going to run Linux on your Mac."

00:08:14 ◼   ► And then within that Linux VM, run Docker.

00:08:17 ◼   ► - And that's fair, but one way,

00:08:19 ◼   ► I honestly, I don't care enough to understand

00:08:22 ◼   ► the hyper specifics about it,

00:08:23 ◼   ► but suffice to say, it makes,

00:08:25 ◼   ► it's an alternate way of running Docker.

00:08:27 ◼   ► And I had a bunch of problems with that

00:08:29 ◼   ► with regard to network shares that are unimportant,

00:08:31 ◼   ► but as of just a couple of hours ago,

00:08:33 ◼   ► I think I have that all squared away now

00:08:35 ◼   ► and that seems to be working.

00:08:36 ◼   ► So now I have temporarily powered off my Docker containers

00:08:40 ◼   ► on my Raspberry Pi.

00:08:41 ◼   ► I have migrated everything to the Mac mini

00:08:44 ◼   ► and I'm gonna see how that goes for the next few days.

00:08:46 ◼   ► And I think and hope it's working

00:08:48 ◼   ► and hopefully that'll go pretty well.

00:08:51 ◼   ► Now the motivation for doing this is,

00:08:53 ◼   ► even though the Raspberry Pi seems to be handling

00:08:56 ◼   ► all four of the containers, no problem.

00:08:59 ◼   ► And I'm quite surprised by that

00:09:01 ◼   ► 'cause I think it's a two gig RAM Raspberry Pi.

00:09:04 ◼   ► And I was saying, you know,

00:09:05 ◼   ► I really want an eight gig Raspberry Pi.

00:09:07 ◼   ► I don't think I need it, I really don't.

00:09:08 ◼   ► But nevertheless, there's not a lot of space

00:09:10 ◼   ► in that Raspberry Pi.

00:09:11 ◼   ► I don't wanna like thrash the SD card

00:09:13 ◼   ► if one of these containers is downloading something.

00:09:16 ◼   ► And so I wanted to move it to the Mac Mini.

00:09:19 ◼   ► And in my initial tests on the Mac Mini,

00:09:22 ◼   ► if I have one of these containers download something

00:09:24 ◼   ► on the Raspberry Pi, it goes at like 15,

00:09:26 ◼   ► maybe 20 megabytes a second.

00:09:27 ◼   ► On the Mac Mini, I was kissing 90 megabytes a second.

00:09:30 ◼   ► that's bytes, not bits, mind you.

00:09:32 ◼   ► So I was basically maxing out my gigabit ether internet line

00:09:36 ◼   ► which is pretty freaking cool.

00:09:38 ◼   ► So that's part of the reason I wanted to go to Mac mini.

00:09:41 ◼   ► And so far, knock on wood,

00:09:43 ◼   ► everything seems to be working now.

00:09:44 ◼   ► So if you're in a similar boat, I'm so sorry,

00:09:46 ◼   ► but Colima, and we'll put a link in the show notes.

00:09:49 ◼   ► Tell me, Jon, Apple's considering not requiring

00:09:52 ◼   ► all of us to use WebKit, what?

00:09:54 ◼   ► - Anytime Apple consider, quote unquote,

00:09:56 ◼   ► considers anything like that,

00:09:57 ◼   ► it's probably because the government is making them.

00:09:59 ◼   ► So this is part of the Germin story about the Digital Markets Act and he claims that

00:10:05 ◼   ► that's one of the things that's on the table to comply with the DMA is stopping the requirement

00:10:12 ◼   ► that every web browser that is on iOS must use Apple's WebKit engine.

00:10:16 ◼   ► If you don't know, you can get Chrome for your phone but Chrome is running WebKit under

00:10:21 ◼   ► the covers, not Google's fork of WebKit that is called Blink.

00:10:25 ◼   ► It used to be that both Chrome and Safari were built on WebKit, but those days are gone

00:10:30 ◼   ► now when Google went off and forked it.

00:10:33 ◼   ► Anyway, this is something that I'm sure browser makers have wanted for a while.

00:10:38 ◼   ► We've talked in the past about all the various security reasons why Apple wouldn't want this,

00:10:43 ◼   ► but there are other reasons why Apple wouldn't want this.

00:10:44 ◼   ► Setting aside, anything having to do with security and just-in-time compilers and all

00:10:48 ◼   ► sorts of exploits that can happen in web browsers, this is sort of the thing that a lot of developers

00:10:54 ◼   ► who were angry about, web developers were angry about

00:10:57 ◼   ► when Apple was too slow in their opinion

00:11:00 ◼   ► in supporting various web standards on iOS.

00:11:04 ◼   ► - Which by the way, that was always like

00:11:07 ◼   ► a really BSC classification of what was actually happening.

00:11:11 ◼   ► Which was basically it's like, you know,

00:11:12 ◼   ► the web people who didn't like the take off of apps

00:11:16 ◼   ► would propose a quote standard saying,

00:11:18 ◼   ► all right, now all web browsers have to have,

00:11:21 ◼   ► you know, insert app capability X notifications,

00:11:24 ◼   ► background execution, workers, all this stuff that Apple was

00:11:28 ◼   ► like, we don't agree that's what everybody should have,

00:11:31 ◼   ► because that's going to make everything worse on our phones.

00:11:34 ◼   ► And so it was way more complicated

00:11:37 ◼   ► than Apple being quote, "slow."

00:11:39 ◼   ► Well, it's some things that were slow,

00:11:41 ◼   ► like even just simple stuff like features they did support,

00:11:43 ◼   ► but they weren't up to date with the latest changes in them.

00:11:46 ◼   ► It wasn't always a feature that Apple disagreed with.

00:11:49 ◼   ► But that's changed a lot lately.

00:11:50 ◼   ► I think Safari and the WebKit engine

00:11:52 ◼   ► has really picked up in web standards.

00:11:54 ◼   ► But the reason it's relevant is what you were getting at,

00:11:57 ◼   ► that if you are dissatisfied with the one and only app

00:12:00 ◼   ► store that exists on the phone, Apple has always

00:12:04 ◼   ► had a way for you to sort of, well,

00:12:06 ◼   ► why don't you just ship it as a web app?

00:12:07 ◼   ► Make it a web page.

00:12:08 ◼   ► You can even put web apps on your home screen.

00:12:10 ◼   ► That's a feature that Apple introduced.

00:12:12 ◼   ► I think it was-- was it part of the suite solution,

00:12:14 ◼   ► or did it come later?

00:12:15 ◼   ► I forget.

00:12:15 ◼   ► Yeah, it was really early on.

00:12:17 ◼   ► I think that was iOS 2.0, wasn't it?

00:12:19 ◼   ► Even before 2.0.

00:12:20 ◼   ► as well as features that people don't even know exist

00:12:24 ◼   ► and may even be using without knowing it.

00:12:26 ◼   ► So it's kind of, you know,

00:12:27 ◼   ► it's almost like a different Apple made this,

00:12:28 ◼   ► like, oh, you mean I can have an icon on my home screen

00:12:30 ◼   ► that really just launches a webpage,

00:12:32 ◼   ► but I don't know that 'cause it just looks, anyway.

00:12:34 ◼   ► That feature still exists.

00:12:35 ◼   ► Apple could take that away at any time if they wanted.

00:12:37 ◼   ► But anyway, if you're dissatisfied with the App Store,

00:12:40 ◼   ► but there's some feature that you would like to have

00:12:42 ◼   ► that you can't implement in WebKit, essentially,

00:12:46 ◼   ► you're like, man, if only I had Chrome,

00:12:48 ◼   ► the actual Chrome, you know, Blink-based Chrome

00:12:50 ◼   ► on iOS, I could do this other thing with my app.

00:12:53 ◼   ► And setting aside things that integrate with the OS,

00:12:55 ◼   ► like, oh, I want to have push notifications, stuff like that,

00:12:57 ◼   ► just stuff that happens just in that web page,

00:13:00 ◼   ► something having to do with service workers,

00:13:02 ◼   ► or I mean, I guess this impacts the OS as well,

00:13:05 ◼   ► but like our IndexedDB, or just there's some web feature

00:13:08 ◼   ► that Apple doesn't have yet that you think, if I had this,

00:13:10 ◼   ► I could make a web-based app that would be really great.

00:13:15 ◼   ► If Apple lifts this restriction and says browser engines

00:13:18 ◼   ► the WebKit are allowed, it is plausible that a motivated group could decide, "Okay, we

00:13:24 ◼   ► don't have to wait for Apple to implement these new features, these new WebGL features

00:13:29 ◼   ► or something that we really need for our cool web-based application," because Blink has

00:13:33 ◼   ► already implemented it, and so we'll use the Blink-based Google Chrome on iOS to run our

00:13:39 ◼   ► cool application.

00:13:40 ◼   ► Like, it's kind of a -- it's not a backdoor, it's not even a side door, it's just sort

00:13:44 ◼   ► of like a sideshow.

00:13:46 ◼   ► Being divorced from WebKit, saying,

00:13:49 ◼   ► "We're not dependent on Apple implementing these features,"

00:13:52 ◼   ► we're dependent on Google now instead, right?

00:13:54 ◼   ► But say you are Google, for instance,

00:13:56 ◼   ► it really would help them

00:13:57 ◼   ► if they had a web-based application

00:13:58 ◼   ► that they wanted to do cooler stuff with.

00:14:01 ◼   ► So I don't know if this will happen,

00:14:03 ◼   ► but I think it's probably a good thing,

00:14:05 ◼   ► and I think it's kind of long since past the time

00:14:08 ◼   ► that Apple can say, "Nope, it's just too unsafe.

00:14:11 ◼   ► "We can't handle it."

00:14:11 ◼   ► It's like, "Find a way, Apple.

00:14:12 ◼   ► "You found a way to do third-party keyboards

00:14:14 ◼   ► "for crying out loud.

00:14:15 ◼   ► about things that are potentially unsafe.

00:14:16 ◼   ► It's how many years into the iPhone.

00:14:18 ◼   ► We're not asking on year two of the iPhone

00:14:20 ◼   ► to allow third-party browser engines,

00:14:21 ◼   ► but 15 years in or whatever we are now,

00:14:24 ◼   ► I think it's the technical reasons

00:14:26 ◼   ► that that is difficult to remain,

00:14:28 ◼   ► but it's not, there shouldn't be barriers.

00:14:29 ◼   ► I think it is time for third-party browsing engines

00:14:32 ◼   ► to be available, and I actually hope it does happen,

00:14:34 ◼   ► because that's a pretty clean thing to happen.

00:14:36 ◼   ► It's like a yes/no, it's a policy decision.

00:14:38 ◼   ► Apple doesn't have to do anything.

00:14:39 ◼   ► They don't have to waste any time on this

00:14:42 ◼   ► other than sort of making sure everything is secured.

00:14:44 ◼   ► And, you know, frankly speaking, it's not like there are a million web browser engines

00:14:49 ◼   ► out there waiting to burst through the door. There's a small number. There's Firefox,

00:14:52 ◼   ► which whatever their engine is called these days, and there's Blink, which is a WebKit

00:14:55 ◼   ► fork. And then there's little hobby projects. So it would be nice to see those other engines

00:15:00 ◼   ► on your iPads and iPhones.

00:15:03 ◼   ► Well, but there is one complex part of it, though, that I think is a significantly complex

00:15:07 ◼   ► part, is that this is not just a policy decision. There's a technical side of this, which

00:15:11 ◼   ► is that WebKit has privileged execution abilities

00:15:15 ◼   ► that other apps on iOS don't have,

00:15:18 ◼   ► where it can do things like just-in-time compilation

00:15:21 ◼   ► of JavaScript and then execute that at full speed.

00:15:23 ◼   ► And I forget the details of exactly how all this works,

00:15:26 ◼   ► but basically, other apps can't do that.

00:15:28 ◼   ► Safari does it.

00:15:30 ◼   ► Like UI WebView and WKWebView,

00:15:32 ◼   ► or UI WebView does not do it.

00:15:34 ◼   ► WKWebView, I think, does, 'cause it can be out of process.

00:15:36 ◼   ► Anyway, whole thing.

00:15:36 ◼   ► But the Safari rendering engine on iOS

00:15:40 ◼   ► has lower level access to how it can compile

00:15:44 ◼   ► and execute JavaScript.

00:15:45 ◼   ► So JavaScript will run faster on that

00:15:48 ◼   ► than it would run on any third party app

00:15:50 ◼   ► that doesn't have that ability,

00:15:51 ◼   ► which is all third party apps.

00:15:52 ◼   ► So even if they change the policy

00:15:55 ◼   ► that says you can't have other web browser engines,

00:15:57 ◼   ► if they actually allow Blink or whatever else in an app,

00:16:02 ◼   ► but don't grant it this ability,

00:16:03 ◼   ► and there's lots of reasons why they wouldn't,

00:16:05 ◼   ► 'cause I can't imagine Apple wanting to open up

00:16:07 ◼   ► that security can of worms

00:16:09 ◼   ► with just letting Google's code do it on their devices.

00:16:12 ◼   ► There's no way in heck they're gonna allow that.

00:16:14 ◼   ► So the result we're gonna get if they do this

00:16:17 ◼   ► is browsers and other products that are based

00:16:20 ◼   ► on those other browsing engines

00:16:22 ◼   ► will have slower JavaScript speeds than Safari.

00:16:24 ◼   ► And then people will say that's unfair.

00:16:26 ◼   ► But there actually is this pretty significant

00:16:28 ◼   ► security reason why not to do that.

00:16:30 ◼   ► So I think it wouldn't surprise me

00:16:33 ◼   ► if this doesn't go as well as people plan.

00:16:35 ◼   ► And there's a good reason for that

00:16:36 ◼   ► that I think Apple, Apple's going to take a lot of hits for

00:16:40 ◼   ► because people won't fully understand the reason,

00:16:42 ◼   ► but there is a good reason why they wouldn't want to let

00:16:46 ◼   ► any other browser engines perform as quickly

00:16:48 ◼   ► as Safari does, you know, on the backend.

00:16:51 ◼   ► - I mean, I understand the reason,

00:16:52 ◼   ► that's what I was getting at with the security concerns,

00:16:53 ◼   ► but I think at this point, you can't just keep saying,

00:16:56 ◼   ► oh, it's impossible to allow third parties

00:16:57 ◼   ► to have fast JavaScript engines.

00:16:58 ◼   ► Like, fine, it's impossible for the first decade and a half,

00:17:01 ◼   ► eventually you gotta figure it out, right?

00:17:02 ◼   ► It's like, no, it'll never be safe.

00:17:04 ◼   ► Look, if it's safe enough for Apple to do it,

00:17:06 ◼   ► Apple can find a way to allow the two third parties

00:17:09 ◼   ► I'm talking about that have engines

00:17:10 ◼   ► figure out a way to do it safely.

00:17:12 ◼   ► Even if it is simply like, hey, it's safe for us to do it

00:17:14 ◼   ► and occasionally we have exploits,

00:17:16 ◼   ► we're going to carefully vet what you submit

00:17:18 ◼   ► and you're gonna have exploits occasionally too

00:17:20 ◼   ► and you'll patch them and that'll be that.

00:17:21 ◼   ► Like that's what I'm saying.

00:17:23 ◼   ► Like same thing with third party keyboards.

00:17:24 ◼   ► Incredibly dangerous to allow that.

00:17:26 ◼   ► Apple found a way to do it safely.

00:17:27 ◼   ► I think there is a way to do this safely

00:17:30 ◼   ► and it does involve not allowing anyone else to use a JIT,

00:17:33 ◼   ► although I have seen some stuff recently,

00:17:35 ◼   ► Maybe it was in Gecko saying they found a way

00:17:37 ◼   ► to make the JavaScript engine fast without doing JIT.

00:17:40 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:17:41 ◼   ► Anyway, I think they can find a way to make this work

00:17:44 ◼   ► because it's not like they have to let

00:17:46 ◼   ► a million different things,

00:17:47 ◼   ► like they don't have to make a blanket policy.

00:17:48 ◼   ► It's like now just-in-time compilation of anything

00:17:50 ◼   ► is free for all, anyone can do it.

00:17:51 ◼   ► Put it in your casino games for children, we don't care.

00:17:54 ◼   ► It's like no, you know who you're dealing with.

00:17:55 ◼   ► You're dealing with Firefox and you're dealing with Google

00:17:58 ◼   ► and those submissions can get some extra attention

00:18:01 ◼   ► and you can figure out a way to allow them

00:18:03 ◼   ► to have alternate browser engines with this extra,

00:18:06 ◼   ► you know, either they can decide to do it

00:18:07 ◼   ► without just-in-time compilation.

00:18:10 ◼   ► And, again, I think there are ways

00:18:12 ◼   ► to make that reasonably fast.

00:18:13 ◼   ► Or if you really wanted to do a JIT,

00:18:15 ◼   ► find a way to make yourself okay with that in the same way

00:18:20 ◼   ► that you're okay with Safari doing it,

00:18:21 ◼   ► because it's not like Apple's humans are magic

00:18:23 ◼   ► and don't make bugs that cause security problems in WebKit,

00:18:27 ◼   ► and Google just can't do that.

00:18:28 ◼   ► Like, make it work.

00:18:30 ◼   ► - All right, we got some absolutely phenomenal feedback

00:18:34 ◼   ► like a month ago, I don't know, it was a while ago.

00:18:37 ◼   ► And I loved it, but we didn't have a chance

00:18:40 ◼   ► to talk about it for a few weeks

00:18:42 ◼   ► 'cause other things were going on.

00:18:43 ◼   ► And I'd like to talk about it now.

00:18:45 ◼   ► It's a little bit on the longer side,

00:18:46 ◼   ► but I think it's worth it.

00:18:47 ◼   ► So Chris writes, "So I guess it's my turn

00:18:49 ◼   ► "to add credence to the theory

00:18:50 ◼   ► "that there is someone in the ATP audience

00:18:52 ◼   ► "with specialized knowledge about any niche topic

00:18:54 ◼   ► "that you stumble into.

00:18:55 ◼   ► "This example, inertial celestial navigation

00:18:58 ◼   ► "or more generally GPS-free navigation

00:19:00 ◼   ► for military applications.

00:19:02 ◼   ► Chris says, "I was a US Navy submarine warfare officer

00:19:05 ◼   ► and have worked extensively with submarine-launched weapons,

00:19:07 ◼   ► including the Trident II D5 missile system.

00:19:09 ◼   ► The SR-71," which is, I think, where this all came from,

00:19:12 ◼   ► as Marco was saying.

00:19:13 ◼   ► Yep, from Blackbird.

00:19:14 ◼   ► Your thing was the Blackbird.

00:19:16 ◼   ► "The SR-71 has an astro-inertial navigation system.

00:19:18 ◼   ► In other words, it had a celestial navigation system,

00:19:21 ◼   ► but it didn't work independently from the inertial navigation

00:19:23 ◼   ► system of the INS.

00:19:25 ◼   ► Many platforms, like planes, submarines, ships, land

00:19:27 ◼   ► vehicles, et cetera, use INSes.

00:19:29 ◼   ► These systems measure acceleration over time and integrate acceleration to calculate velocity,

00:19:34 ◼   ► changes in position, attitude, heading, and other navigational properties.

00:19:38 ◼   ► As John alluded, integration in the calculus sense of acceleration also means the integration

00:19:42 ◼   ► of errors associated with acceleration measurements due to things like ocean currents, atmospheric

00:19:45 ◼   ► prevailing winds, and measurement errors.

00:19:48 ◼   ► The rate that errors accumulate depend on a large number of factors and are probably

00:19:51 ◼   ► beyond the limits of this email.

00:19:53 ◼   ► But as an example, total error includes not only the acceleration sensing error, but errors

00:19:57 ◼   ► caused by moving across the curvature of the Earth, either underwater or in near space,

00:20:00 ◼   ► which is the so-called Schuyler oscillations. And we'll put a link in the show notes.

00:20:04 ◼   ► Over time, inertial systems need to be told where they are because

00:20:08 ◼   ► in position uncertainty tends to grow. So the Position Navigation and Timing,

00:20:12 ◼   ► PNT, game is about reducing position error through better inertial measurement

00:20:16 ◼   ► or limiting and correcting the error that grows from the INS you're using.

00:20:20 ◼   ► Engineers have lots of clever schemes to do this, such as looking at the stars. The SR-71

00:20:23 ◼   ► use stars to estimate position to correct or limit the errors of the INS. Together, they were better

00:20:28 ◼   ► than either component. According to the Aviation Geek Club, their position error had about a 300

00:20:35 ◼   ► foot radius. That's pretty good. And there's a link that Chris provided to the Aviation Geek

00:20:41 ◼   ► Club, which explains a lot of this. And I thought an interesting segment of that link. The ANS works,

00:20:48 ◼   ► this is the navigation system, works by tracking at least two stars at a time listed in an onboard

00:20:52 ◼   ► catalog and with the aid of a chronometer calculates a fix of the sr-71 over the ground

00:20:56 ◼   ► it was programmed before each flight in the aircraft's primary alignment and the flight

00:20:59 ◼   ► plan was recorded on a punch tape that told the aircraft where to go when in turn when to turn

00:21:04 ◼   ► and when to turn the sensors on and off the stars are sighted through a special quartz window located

00:21:09 ◼   ► behind the cockpit and there was a special star tracker that could see stars even in the daylight

00:21:14 ◼   ► how freaking cool it was an interesting story about this uh referencing that the punch tape or

00:21:20 ◼   ► or whatever, I don't know if it's one of the links

00:21:22 ◼   ► we'll put in the show notes, again, live streams,

00:21:24 ◼   ► I don't know where I saw it, maybe it was in a podcast.

00:21:27 ◼   ► So they had two catalogs of star position information,

00:21:31 ◼   ► one for the Northern Hemisphere and one for the Southern,

00:21:33 ◼   ► presumably due to memory limitations

00:21:35 ◼   ► and whatever ancient computer from the 60s

00:21:37 ◼   ► is in this thing, right?

00:21:38 ◼   ► But they couldn't fit the whole world, sorry, right?

00:21:40 ◼   ► And one of the SR-71 pilots, I think it was a podcast,

00:21:43 ◼   ► was telling a story about a mission he had

00:21:45 ◼   ► that flew from the Northern Hemisphere into the Southern,

00:21:48 ◼   ► and he was just like landing just over the equator

00:21:50 ◼   ► in the southern, but they hadn't loaded

00:21:52 ◼   ► the southern hemisphere stars in the thing.

00:21:55 ◼   ► He just had the northern one,

00:21:56 ◼   ► so as soon as he crossed over the equator,

00:21:58 ◼   ► the plane didn't know where it was anymore,

00:22:00 ◼   ► and it was a little bit of a freak out.

00:22:02 ◼   ► Some technology, man.

00:22:04 ◼   ► We can't fit all those stars

00:22:05 ◼   ► and you just get one hemisphere,

00:22:06 ◼   ► and if you fly over it, oh well.

00:22:08 ◼   ► He said that he managed to land fine anyway

00:22:11 ◼   ► because the plain old radio radar type stuff

00:22:15 ◼   ► that leads you to the airport he was landing in,

00:22:18 ◼   ► when you're flying at like 80,000 feet,

00:22:20 ◼   ► you get really good range on that radar.

00:22:22 ◼   ► You can see long distances.

00:22:23 ◼   ► So as soon as he crossed over the equator,

00:22:26 ◼   ► he basically had line of sight practically

00:22:28 ◼   ► onto the place where he was landing

00:22:30 ◼   ► because he was flying so high.

00:22:32 ◼   ► - That's awesome.

00:22:33 ◼   ► - That is absolutely bananas.

00:22:34 ◼   ► And then building on this,

00:22:36 ◼   ► I don't remember where this link came from,

00:22:37 ◼   ► but it turns out that Turnabout is fair play.

00:22:40 ◼   ► So this Twitter user, John McElhone, put a short thread up

00:22:44 ◼   ► and it describes, there's apparently a new US Air Force stealth aircraft

00:22:49 ◼   ► and the US government took a picture of it at night with stars in the

00:22:54 ◼   ► background and posted it on, I don't know, like social media or official forums,

00:22:58 ◼   ► I'm not sure exactly what the genesis of this image was or where it was posted,

00:23:01 ◼   ► but John McElhone

00:23:03 ◼   ► took, via this Twitter thread, took us through

00:23:06 ◼   ► figuring out exactly when and where that picture was taken based on the stars in

00:23:10 ◼   ► the background of the picture, which I think is the coolest thing.

00:23:14 ◼   ► So here the United States government rolls out this top secret. Well,

00:23:18 ◼   ► I guess it's not top secret since they're posting a picture about it,

00:23:20 ◼   ► but you know what I mean? Like they're, they're announcing this new aircraft.

00:23:23 ◼   ► They take a picture of it at night. They have the stars in the background.

00:23:26 ◼   ► I wouldn't have thought anything of it and I,

00:23:28 ◼   ► they didn't think anything of it.

00:23:29 ◼   ► And John McElhone was able to pinpoint within I think a couple of hours and

00:23:34 ◼   ► basically which air force base this thing had its picture taken on.

00:23:38 ◼   ► This is like a 10 tweet thread and it is well worth the two minutes of your time

00:23:42 ◼   ► to read it. It is so cool.

00:23:44 ◼   ► It reminds me of those stalkerous threads where someone will post a photo and then the

00:23:47 ◼   ► rest of the internet will figure out where on earth that photo was taken.

00:23:50 ◼   ► Oh yeah, there's a subreddit for that but I forget what it's called.

00:23:53 ◼   ► That's just called Reddit.

00:23:54 ◼   ► Well, fair, fair.

00:23:55 ◼   ► Based on like the background sidewalk or the house or like it's not even like road signs

00:24:00 ◼   ► they can just tell like you know where that is just because either someone is familiar

00:24:04 ◼   ► with that area or has seen it before or they'll narrow it down based on Google Earth stuff.

00:24:09 ◼   ► If we lived in the fantasy world of the movies where all large institutions are smart about

00:24:14 ◼   ► than individual people, which we don't, the government would have put in that star field

00:24:21 ◼   ► in the background with entirely fake stars to make people think it was on an Air Force

00:24:24 ◼   ► base in Arizona or wherever when really it was in the secret Air Force base that we don't

00:24:28 ◼   ► know about.

00:24:29 ◼   ► Right, right, right.

00:24:30 ◼   ► Anyway, I just thought that was super cool.

00:24:32 ◼   ► And then we also got, and Marco, I think you're best equipped to summarize it, but we got

00:24:36 ◼   ► a lot of feedback about moisturizers, including several people who are like either doctors

00:24:41 ◼   ► or residents that are in dermatology.

00:24:44 ◼   ► So apparently there is nothing that our show cannot reach

00:24:48 ◼   ► and I'm very proud of this,

00:24:49 ◼   ► probably unreasonably proud of this.

00:24:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, so last week's pre-show,

00:24:53 ◼   ► I was talking about my dry hands

00:24:55 ◼   ► and especially the skin around my fingernails

00:24:57 ◼   ► always get all cracked and cut

00:24:58 ◼   ► and I'd have to wear band-aids and it sucks.

00:25:00 ◼   ► And so we heard from so many people,

00:25:05 ◼   ► many of whom either were dermatologists themselves

00:25:09 ◼   ► or they were married to a dermatologist

00:25:11 ◼   ► or they knew a dermatologist,

00:25:13 ◼   ► or they went to a dermatologist,

00:25:15 ◼   ► or they saw a dermatologist once from across the room.

00:25:18 ◼   ► Like, there were so many people with so many connections

00:25:22 ◼   ► to various parts of dermatology expertise.

00:25:25 ◼   ► And everyone kind of agreed that, okay,

00:25:27 ◼   ► to answer my question, are moisturizers real

00:25:30 ◼   ► and do they work?

00:25:31 ◼   ► Turns out, yes.

00:25:32 ◼   ► In my defense, a lot of medicine,

00:25:33 ◼   ► especially over-the-counter stuff,

00:25:35 ◼   ► is not super real and doesn't super work.

00:25:37 ◼   ► So, you know, I think that was a valid question to ask.

00:25:40 ◼   ► Far and away, there were a few consistently

00:25:43 ◼   ► recommended items.

00:25:44 ◼   ► The first most recommended one by far

00:25:47 ◼   ► is something called either O'Keeffe's or O'Keeffe's,

00:25:50 ◼   ► I don't know how this is pronounced.

00:25:52 ◼   ► Anyway, O'Keeffe's Working Hands.

00:25:54 ◼   ► Now, go search Amazon for O'Keeffe's Working Hands.

00:25:58 ◼   ► I have never in all of my life searching Amazon

00:26:02 ◼   ► seen a product with such incredibly high reviews

00:26:06 ◼   ► and so many reviews.

00:26:08 ◼   ► - Oh wow, yeah.

00:26:09 ◼   ► 80,000 reviews, 4.7.

00:26:11 ◼   ► 34,000 reviews, 4.7.

00:26:13 ◼   ► 5,000 reviews, 4.8.

00:26:15 ◼   ► 5,000 reviews, 4.7.

00:26:17 ◼   ► This is the most highly rated product

00:26:19 ◼   ► I think I've ever seen on Amazon

00:26:20 ◼   ► that I've ever searched for.

00:26:22 ◼   ► So I thought, all right, I'll give this a shot.

00:26:25 ◼   ► So I got some of that.

00:26:27 ◼   ► I also, dermatologists and various dermatology friends

00:26:31 ◼   ► also frequently said, Casey was right,

00:26:34 ◼   ► that Cetaphil is a really good all-arounder.

00:26:38 ◼   ► for more kind of advanced needs,

00:26:41 ◼   ► like what I was having with my hands in the winter.

00:26:43 ◼   ► It wasn't quite strong enough,

00:26:45 ◼   ► and what they recommended was either the high-end creams

00:26:49 ◼   ► from CeraVe and from Usurin, and I got all three.

00:26:53 ◼   ► So I have O'Keeffe's Working Hands,

00:26:55 ◼   ► Usurin Advanced Repair Hand Cream,

00:26:58 ◼   ► and CeraVe Moisturizing Cream,

00:27:00 ◼   ► and I have to say, I have had significant progress

00:27:04 ◼   ► in one, not even one week, like in five days

00:27:07 ◼   ► since I've had these.

00:27:08 ◼   ► So, yeah, gotta say, y'all were right, thank you.

00:27:13 ◼   ► And so far, the O'Keeffe's working hands

00:27:18 ◼   ► seems to be the strongest in terms of forming a barrier.

00:27:21 ◼   ► 'Cause it's basic, it's almost like wax.

00:27:23 ◼   ► Like it dries, it's very waxy, and it works pretty well.

00:27:28 ◼   ► I think the one that makes me the softest feeling afterwards,

00:27:32 ◼   ► which I think is better for daytime use maybe,

00:27:34 ◼   ► 'cause then I get to enjoy my immense softness,

00:27:36 ◼   ► is the CeraVe moisturizing cream.

00:27:39 ◼   ► Somebody, a few people said there's a difference

00:27:40 ◼   ► between cream and lotion.

00:27:42 ◼   ► Nobody was clear on what that difference is

00:27:43 ◼   ► or how much it matters, so I got cream for the CeraVe.

00:27:46 ◼   ► It's great, I feel ridiculously soft and it's amazing.

00:27:49 ◼   ► And finally, many people wrote in to suggest the technique,

00:27:53 ◼   ► 'cause I was complaining about getting it,

00:27:55 ◼   ► my hands all greasy and then being able to,

00:27:57 ◼   ► you know, being unable to operate doorknobs.

00:27:58 ◼   ► Many people wrote in to suggest

00:28:00 ◼   ► that what you're supposed to do really is apply the cream

00:28:03 ◼   ► to the back of one of your hands

00:28:06 ◼   ► and then rub the two backs of your hands together

00:28:09 ◼   ► to get it all over the back and like the top of your fingers

00:28:11 ◼   ► that way you never actually get it on your palms.

00:28:15 ◼   ► That's very good advice, I've been doing that as well.

00:28:17 ◼   ► I do wanna get it kind of around the fingernails

00:28:19 ◼   ► 'cause like the little cuticle areas

00:28:20 ◼   ► always get all messed up too.

00:28:22 ◼   ► So I'm trying to get it all around there too.

00:28:24 ◼   ► So I get it a little bit on my hands

00:28:25 ◼   ► but certainly I'm not getting on the palms anymore.

00:28:26 ◼   ► So anyway, that's good.

00:28:28 ◼   ► Strongly recommend the O'Keeffe's Working Hands

00:28:31 ◼   ► and the CeraVe Moisturizing Cream

00:28:32 ◼   ► and I'll put links in the show notes

00:28:33 ◼   ► to those products on Amazon.

00:28:35 ◼   ► but it's incredible, I've never seen reviews this good

00:28:39 ◼   ► for the O'Keeves.

00:28:40 ◼   ► - Seeing all those people suggesting

00:28:42 ◼   ► with the rubbing the back of the hands together,

00:28:44 ◼   ► it makes me think about rubbing my two kneecaps together,

00:28:46 ◼   ► like the back of my hands are bony.

00:28:48 ◼   ► How do you, rubbing two bony parts of my body together,

00:28:51 ◼   ► I feel like I wouldn't get the moisturizer

00:28:52 ◼   ► in all the spots.

00:28:53 ◼   ► - Don't form a fist, just keep your hands flat.

00:28:55 ◼   ► - No, I understand, I guess I don't have enough

00:28:57 ◼   ► back of hand fat or something.

00:28:59 ◼   ► - Well you gotta work on that.

00:29:01 ◼   ► - It's just, I got bony hands, anyway.

00:29:04 ◼   ► - Keep your hands some pizza and beer,

00:29:05 ◼   ► I don't know what else.

00:29:06 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:29:07 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:29:08 ◼   ► And the other suggestion I saw a lot of people had

00:29:10 ◼   ► was not just wearing it at nighttime, but wearing gloves.

00:29:12 ◼   ► In fact, when I did the search for the O'Keeffe's

00:29:14 ◼   ► working hands on Amazon, there were also glove results.

00:29:17 ◼   ► - Oh yes.

00:29:18 ◼   ► - So basically said, put the moisturizer on

00:29:19 ◼   ► and then put, lots of people had different suggestions

00:29:21 ◼   ► for gloves, put gloves on top of your moisturized hands

00:29:23 ◼   ► and then go to sleep to sort of lock in the moisture

00:29:27 ◼   ► at nighttime so it doesn't evaporate out of your hands

00:29:29 ◼   ► or whatever.

00:29:30 ◼   ► And it just, I don't know, I like it,

00:29:31 ◼   ► for someone who gets so bundled up when I go to sleep,

00:29:33 ◼   ► it still seems weird to me to wear gloves in Tibet.

00:29:36 ◼   ► - Yeah, I agree with that.

00:29:37 ◼   ► - If any of us would, it's you though.

00:29:38 ◼   ► - That's also true.

00:29:40 ◼   ► - You're basically wearing an entire snow suit

00:29:42 ◼   ► when you go to bed every night.

00:29:43 ◼   ► - I know, but not gloves, that's weird.

00:29:45 ◼   ► Anyway, and then the thing is, underneath the gloves

00:29:48 ◼   ► is your slimy lotioned hands, not, ugh,

00:29:50 ◼   ► give me a definite ick factor.

00:29:52 ◼   ► - Yeah, I might try that if I like,

00:29:54 ◼   ► 'cause on Amazon there's packs of basic cotton gloves

00:29:57 ◼   ► that are made basically for this purpose

00:29:59 ◼   ► where they're kind of semi-disposable.

00:30:01 ◼   ► - Or other people suggested socks too,

00:30:04 ◼   ► which is even funnier.

00:30:04 ◼   ► You can do little sock puppets in bed.

00:30:06 ◼   ► Oh, goodnight, goodnight.

00:30:07 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:30:09 ◼   ► - Yeah, and people also suggested like, you know,

00:30:11 ◼   ► wearing rubber gloves if you have to wash dishes and stuff.

00:30:14 ◼   ► I haven't quite gone that far yet, but I have.

00:30:16 ◼   ► Like, it's been kind of crushing my soul.

00:30:19 ◼   ► I've been delaying doing dishes throughout the day.

00:30:23 ◼   ► So instead of washing dishes constantly

00:30:25 ◼   ► as they're being used to keep a clean kitchen,

00:30:27 ◼   ► now I like will let them accumulate for a couple hours

00:30:30 ◼   ► and then do them and it's killing me.

00:30:31 ◼   ► I am not good at leaving dishes behind in the kitchen.

00:30:35 ◼   ► Like I always have to have a clean kitchen.

00:30:37 ◼   ► And it's, that's very difficult for me.

00:30:39 ◼   ► That's the hardest part.

00:30:40 ◼   ► I'd rather have greasy hands all day

00:30:42 ◼   ► than have dirty dishes in the kitchen.

00:30:43 ◼   ► But it's been crushing me, but that also has been helping

00:30:47 ◼   ► to reduce the frequency of that.

00:30:49 ◼   ► - Did you ever see the Palmolive ads

00:30:50 ◼   ► that Merlin and I talk about?

00:30:51 ◼   ► - I don't think so.

00:30:52 ◼   ► - Softens your hands while you do dishes,

00:30:54 ◼   ► that was the pitch.

00:30:55 ◼   ► - Oh yes, that's right.

00:30:57 ◼   ► - It was an ad campaign where they show various people

00:30:58 ◼   ► dipping their hands into it and it's like, oh, you know,

00:31:01 ◼   ► like they're at a spa, remember we talked about

00:31:02 ◼   ► the directives, the commercials like they're,

00:31:04 ◼   ► they're getting their nails done or something

00:31:05 ◼   ► and their hands are soaking in a bowl of stuff,

00:31:07 ◼   ► which is apparently a thing that you do

00:31:09 ◼   ► when you get a manicure, I don't know,

00:31:10 ◼   ► 'cause I've never gotten one.

00:31:11 ◼   ► And they're talking about dish soap

00:31:13 ◼   ► and the big surprise is they talk about pulling off

00:31:16 ◼   ► is you're soaking in it, you didn't even know it,

00:31:17 ◼   ► but your hands are in dish soap, like,

00:31:19 ◼   ► because the dish soap is so therapeutic

00:31:21 ◼   ► and softening to your hands that you could, anyway.

00:31:24 ◼   ► Their slogan was, "Softens your hands while you do dishes."

00:31:26 ◼   ► I bet it probably doesn't,

00:31:28 ◼   ► 'cause it's probably soap, but yeah, wear gloves.

00:31:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, that doesn't seem like it could possibly work at all.

00:31:32 ◼   ► - I mean, it was the '70s.

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00:33:31 ◼   ► - All right, do you need me for this

00:33:36 ◼   ► or should I just bugger off?

00:33:38 ◼   ► - You need to know about the Mac Pro

00:33:40 ◼   ► and so does the rest of the world.

00:33:41 ◼   ► - Do I?

00:33:42 ◼   ► - You've had such a reprieve here

00:33:43 ◼   ► because it was like the two year transition

00:33:45 ◼   ► and we did that item a couple of shows ago.

00:33:48 ◼   ► Apple's entered year three of its two year transition to ARM

00:33:52 ◼   ► in a way that no one cares about it.

00:33:53 ◼   ► And the Mac mini, they still sell the Intel Mac mini

00:33:56 ◼   ► and the Mac Pro that no one cares about is still Intel.

00:33:59 ◼   ► As far as the world is concerned,

00:34:01 ◼   ► Apple transitions and it's fine.

00:34:02 ◼   ► That's why nobody really cares.

00:34:03 ◼   ► 'Cause like, well, they transitioned the Macs

00:34:05 ◼   ► that actually matter, but there are these odd holes.

00:34:08 ◼   ► So this is the latest news story,

00:34:10 ◼   ► latest rumors from Bloomberg, I'm assuming Gherman

00:34:13 ◼   ► about the new Mac Pro.

00:34:16 ◼   ► And the story here is that,

00:34:19 ◼   ► he goes through a little bit of the history of like,

00:34:20 ◼   ► Oh, originally they planned to do basically

00:34:23 ◼   ► like two M1 Ultra stuck together.

00:34:25 ◼   ► We talked about this in the show many times in the past.

00:34:28 ◼   ► Can they get like four M1 Maxes stuck together

00:34:32 ◼   ► into this gigantic chip with like 40 cores?

00:34:34 ◼   ► - Yeah, that was a Jade 4C, right?

00:34:37 ◼   ► - Yeah. - Yeah.

00:34:38 ◼   ► - Yeah, and it seems like that just didn't happen

00:34:40 ◼   ► and isn't going to happen

00:34:41 ◼   ► 'cause they're onto the M2 ones and you know.

00:34:43 ◼   ► I mean, maybe it could have come out like, you know,

00:34:46 ◼   ► could have come out towards the end of this year,

00:34:47 ◼   ► but it didn't.

00:34:48 ◼   ► So it seems like that's all off the table, right?

00:34:50 ◼   ► So now it's like Apple changed their mind and now the Mac Pro is going to be M2 based.

00:34:55 ◼   ► And so the obvious expectation was it would be like four M2 Macs stuck together in a big

00:35:03 ◼   ► square thing.

00:35:04 ◼   ► So it would be even better, right?

00:35:06 ◼   ► And the rumor is now that the big giant four M2 things stuck together Mac Pro was scrapped.

00:35:13 ◼   ► And the only thing you're going to get in the Mac Pro is going to be kind of like an

00:35:16 ◼   ► M2 Ultra, right?

00:35:18 ◼   ► So it's two M2 Mac-ish things stuck together.

00:35:21 ◼   ► They're not doing the big 401.

00:35:23 ◼   ► - Which to be clear is basically the same class of chip

00:35:26 ◼   ► that's available in the Mac Studio.

00:35:28 ◼   ► - Exactly, and presumably they would put this

00:35:29 ◼   ► in the Mac Studio, right?

00:35:30 ◼   ► If they upgrade the Mac Studio to M2,

00:35:32 ◼   ► it would get the M2 Ultra, and so would the Mac Pro.

00:35:36 ◼   ► And so this would be 24 CPU cores, 76 graphic cores,

00:35:40 ◼   ► and the rumor is up to 192 gigs of memory, right?

00:35:43 ◼   ► So, you know, a good chip, right?

00:35:45 ◼   ► But the M2 Extreme, like there would have been four of them,

00:35:48 ◼   ► just double all that it would have had 48 CPU cores 152 graphics cores and they didn't

00:35:53 ◼   ► say anything about the RAM and so the the story is that this is according directly to

00:35:58 ◼   ► the story not a surprise the company made the decision because of both the complexity

00:36:00 ◼   ► and cost of producing a processor that is essentially four M2 max chips fused together

00:36:05 ◼   ► it will also help Apple and partner Taiwan semiconductor manufacturing company save chip

00:36:09 ◼   ► production resources for higher volume machines basically the idea is if this thing costs

00:36:14 ◼   ► too much money, it takes up valuable fab space and wafers, and we're not going to sell a

00:36:20 ◼   ► lot of them anyway.

00:36:21 ◼   ► The suggested rumored price is $10,000 without any other upgrades for that big giant chip,

00:36:27 ◼   ► which kind of makes some sense, but not that much sense, because it seems weird that it

00:36:33 ◼   ► would be more expensive than the 2019 Mac Pro.

00:36:37 ◼   ► You could say, "Yeah, that's because this is a system on a chip and it's got everything

00:36:39 ◼   ► on one big chip, and that chip is expensive," but that hasn't been the case with the other

00:36:43 ◼   ► computers they've made. Combining the GPU and the CPU into a single SoC did not make the

00:36:49 ◼   ► MacStudio tremendously more expensive. Actually there are economies there of not having separate

00:36:54 ◼   ► components, not having to give a profit margin to AMD or wherever you're buying GPUs from.

00:36:58 ◼   ► But anyway, the idea that this is too expensive, too hard to make, and not a lot of people buy it,

00:37:06 ◼   ► I see where they're coming from with that, but I have some issues with it. The issues I've always

00:37:11 ◼   ► had with this discussion, the open question, which we won't know the answer to, and it

00:37:15 ◼   ► seems increasingly likely the answer is going to be disappointing.

00:37:18 ◼   ► If Apple does not allow third-party GPUs, how many times have we just talked about this?

00:37:23 ◼   ► Apple just freaking releases computers, so we know what you're going to do.

00:37:26 ◼   ► If they don't allow third-party GPUs, the discussion has always been, "Okay, but given

00:37:30 ◼   ► the rumors of this Jade 4C thing or whatever, they can put enough GPU on the SoC to be equivalent

00:37:37 ◼   ► to a current highest of high-end single GPU from a third party and that is that

00:37:44 ◼   ► was true back when the J4C rumors were out and if you look at the current stuff

00:37:47 ◼   ► it seems plausible right but if they that was assuming they would do the the

00:37:52 ◼   ► 4x thing but if they'd only do the 2x thing it starts looking a little bit

00:37:56 ◼   ► more grim so I'd ran a bunch of numbers this is using Geekbench's metal

00:38:01 ◼   ► performance score which again like benchmarks are silly but and I didn't do

00:38:05 ◼   ► like a gaming benchmark, because I'm saying like,

00:38:08 ◼   ► let's treat this the way Apple treats it.

00:38:09 ◼   ► Like Apple cares about metal, they use it in their stuff.

00:38:12 ◼   ► And so the metal score is a reflection of how well

00:38:16 ◼   ► could Apple use these GPU resources using its own API?

00:38:20 ◼   ► Whatever, again, how much screens you give to Geekbench,

00:38:22 ◼   ► it gives a good back of the envelope estimate.

00:38:26 ◼   ► So let's take for starters, the AMD Radeon W6900X,

00:38:35 ◼   ► which is like the best single GPU you can get

00:38:38 ◼   ► in a 2019 Mac Pro from Apple.

00:38:41 ◼   ► That score is 166,000 on the metal Geekbench score.

00:38:46 ◼   ► If you had two of them,

00:38:48 ◼   ► so if you bought a fancy new Mac Pro in 2019 Mac Pro

00:38:52 ◼   ► and put two of those cards in it, easy W.

00:38:54 ◼   ► You have about 335,000 on your metal score, right?

00:38:57 ◼   ► AMD has just come out with their next line of cards,

00:39:01 ◼   ► which just increased the first number.

00:39:03 ◼   ► So instead of 6,900, it's 7,900.

00:39:05 ◼   ► So the AMD Radeon RX 7900 XTX,

00:39:10 ◼   ► gotta love that because it's different than the XT,

00:39:11 ◼   ► which is not the good one, XTX is the good one.

00:39:13 ◼   ► Anyway, the XTX is more than double the speed of the 6900.

00:39:18 ◼   ► So it gets around maybe 350,000.

00:39:20 ◼   ► I couldn't get an actual metal score for this,

00:39:22 ◼   ► but looking at game benchmarks and stuff,

00:39:24 ◼   ► it very easily doubles the frame rate

00:39:26 ◼   ► of the previous card, which is very impressive.

00:39:27 ◼   ► It's very close to matching Nvidia's best card.

00:39:30 ◼   ► So it's 350,000 for a single one of those.

00:39:32 ◼   ► And if you got two of those, that would be 700,000.

00:39:34 ◼   ► These are the numbers we're talking about

00:39:35 ◼   ► for the metal scores, right?

00:39:37 ◼   ► Let's look at what the M1 Ultra does with 64 GPU cores today.

00:39:42 ◼   ► So again, the best single card you could get

00:39:45 ◼   ► on the market today is about 350,000.

00:39:46 ◼   ► The best one you can get from Apple is 166.

00:39:49 ◼   ► The M1 Ultra is 94.

00:39:51 ◼   ► So not really in the ballpark of even

00:39:54 ◼   ► of the previous generation high-end card.

00:39:57 ◼   ► Certainly nowhere near the current generation

00:39:59 ◼   ► high-end cards.

00:40:00 ◼   ► Again, setting aside Nvidia entirely, right?

00:40:03 ◼   ► The rumored M2 Ultra, which is just a 2x M2 thing,

00:40:07 ◼   ► has 76 GPU cores, and assuming they scaled linearly,

00:40:10 ◼   ► which they probably want that,

00:40:10 ◼   ► probably be better than that,

00:40:11 ◼   ► but assuming they scaled linearly,

00:40:13 ◼   ► that's like 112,000.

00:40:15 ◼   ► Still not in the ballpark of a 6900,

00:40:18 ◼   ► let alone a 7900 from AMD.

00:40:21 ◼   ► Let's look at the M2 Extreme,

00:40:23 ◼   ► the one that would have been like four M2 Maxis

00:40:27 ◼   ► stuck together.

00:40:28 ◼   ► That is 225-ish thousand.

00:40:31 ◼   ► That's in shooting distance, spitting distance,

00:40:34 ◼   ► whatever they're saying is.

00:40:35 ◼   ► That's close to 350,000,

00:40:38 ◼   ► but still nothing to really write home about.

00:40:40 ◼   ► And I ran these numbers on my own Mac Pro

00:40:42 ◼   ► just for the heck of it.

00:40:43 ◼   ► I have this hodgepodge of old video cards in here.

00:40:48 ◼   ► I've got my W57X, and I've got a Pro Vega II,

00:40:53 ◼   ► and those two combined give me 170,000 on MetalScore.

00:40:59 ◼   ► So my two GPUs combined do about as much as one

00:41:03 ◼   ► of the best GPUs you can get from Apple.

00:41:06 ◼   ► And still considerably more than the rumored M2 Ultra.

00:41:10 ◼   ► The rumored M2 Ultra will get 112, my Mac Pro gets 170.

00:41:14 ◼   ► That leads to the question I always say,

00:41:16 ◼   ► how are you going to sell a Mac Pro

00:41:19 ◼   ► to people who bought your previous Mac Pro

00:41:22 ◼   ► when the previous one could just be filled

00:41:24 ◼   ► with so much more GPU power?

00:41:26 ◼   ► unless you also provide a way to add third-party GPUs.

00:41:30 ◼   ► Now, you don't have this problem.

00:41:31 ◼   ► If this is true, if these rumors are true

00:41:33 ◼   ► and they're not sending the Forex thing,

00:41:35 ◼   ► I think that's a reasonable thing to do

00:41:38 ◼   ► as long as you are not constrained on GPU

00:41:43 ◼   ► by what they decide to put in the SOCs.

00:41:46 ◼   ► That's always kind of been the worry about this.

00:41:47 ◼   ► It's like, all right, if I want to let a GPU,

00:41:50 ◼   ► I have to get all that CPU because it just comes with it

00:41:53 ◼   ► 'cause they come in these little units.

00:41:54 ◼   ► You get the GPU cores, the CPU cores,

00:41:56 ◼   ► the neural engine, you know, it's a system on a chip,

00:41:59 ◼   ► you get all of it, and they've been doing it

00:42:00 ◼   ► with little building blocks.

00:42:01 ◼   ► If you just want a machine with a reasonable CPU

00:42:04 ◼   ► and then a huge amount of GPU, you can't get it.

00:42:07 ◼   ► Every time you want more GPU, it comes with a whole bunch

00:42:09 ◼   ► of other stuff that you may not be able to use.

00:42:12 ◼   ► - And vice versa, by the way.

00:42:14 ◼   ► I love having a whole bunch of CPU power,

00:42:16 ◼   ► I barely need GPU power, but those things

00:42:18 ◼   ► are tied together now.

00:42:19 ◼   ► - Yeah, and so for a modular Mac Pro system,

00:42:23 ◼   ► that poses some of a problem if you're also not going to offer slots.

00:42:28 ◼   ► And so that has been the question we've been working with.

00:42:30 ◼   ► How are you going to offer an expandable machine when you're putting so much more on the SoC?

00:42:34 ◼   ► And I really do think that in the, especially for the top end macro,

00:42:37 ◼   ► if they had gone with the quad arrangement, you could just say,

00:42:40 ◼   ► "Look, I know it's not as flexible as you want it to be, but this machine is so expensive anyway.

00:42:45 ◼   ► Tough luck. If you don't want all that GPU, you're getting it whether you want it or not.

00:42:49 ◼   ► If you don't want all the CPU, you're getting it whether you want it or not.

00:42:51 ◼   ► And by the way, you're paying for it in both cases.

00:42:52 ◼   ► And if there's any market that is able to eat this and be like, all right, we'll just deal with it

00:42:56 ◼   ► it's the Mac Pro because it costs so much money to begin with and

00:42:59 ◼   ► Money is less of an object to these people

00:43:01 ◼   ► It is in quote-unquote inefficient for them to be buying stuff

00:43:05 ◼   ► They don't need but oh, well it is I think it hurts more in your case Marco where you're like

00:43:09 ◼   ► Look, this is supposed to be your mainstream product. I don't want to have to buy a bunch of GPU cores

00:43:12 ◼   ► I don't need to make my compiles go faster. But you know, the prices are low enough, you know

00:43:16 ◼   ► You're not talking tens of thousands of dollars that it seems reasonable

00:43:19 ◼   ► but it will be disappointing if they ship a Mac Pro

00:43:23 ◼   ► and it's basically a Mac Studio that holds more RAM

00:43:26 ◼   ► and bigger SSDs that can't have as much GPU power

00:43:29 ◼   ► as my 2019 Mac Pro has.

00:43:32 ◼   ► - Yeah, this is why I still am really, really curious

00:43:37 ◼   ► to see what the heck they do to the Mac Pro

00:43:39 ◼   ► 'cause it seems like, you know,

00:43:41 ◼   ► if you look at what I think is most likely to happen,

00:43:44 ◼   ► it's basically the Mac Studio.

00:43:46 ◼   ► Like that's like, you know,

00:43:47 ◼   ► what I have been guessing for a while,

00:43:49 ◼   ► like once we saw the direction of Apple Silicon,

00:43:52 ◼   ► I'd been guessing for a long time,

00:43:53 ◼   ► okay, well they're gonna be done with card slots,

00:43:54 ◼   ► no more card slots, definitely no more third party GPUs,

00:43:57 ◼   ► and they're just gonna multiply this chip

00:43:59 ◼   ► until they have enough GPU power to be competitive.

00:44:01 ◼   ► But that leaves so many open questions,

00:44:03 ◼   ► like as you're saying, they're just,

00:44:05 ◼   ► they're not in the ballpark of GPU performance

00:44:08 ◼   ► once you are competing with multiple slots,

00:44:11 ◼   ► each of which can hold the highest end NVIDIA or ATI,

00:44:13 ◼   ► or excuse me, AMD GPUs.

00:44:15 ◼   ► That isn't because Apple's GPUs are bad,

00:44:18 ◼   ► it's that you're dealing with massively different

00:44:21 ◼   ► power envelopes, hugely different.

00:44:24 ◼   ► The reason why Apple's GPUs are so good

00:44:29 ◼   ► for mobile devices and laptops and small desktops

00:44:32 ◼   ► is because they're so incredibly low power consumption

00:44:36 ◼   ► for the amount of computational power they offer.

00:44:39 ◼   ► They're very efficient.

00:44:40 ◼   ► But when you're looking at these big beefy cards

00:44:43 ◼   ► from Nvidia and AMD, they're like themselves

00:44:47 ◼   ► consuming hundreds of watts and have their own tremendous

00:44:50 ◼   ► heat sinks and fans and power supply,

00:44:53 ◼   ► just to power these giant things,

00:44:55 ◼   ► 'cause they are, for many people,

00:44:56 ◼   ► that is the most important component on their computer,

00:44:59 ◼   ► so they're willing to spend that power

00:45:01 ◼   ► and heat and space and everything else.

00:45:03 ◼   ► But the way Apple designs their GPUs,

00:45:05 ◼   ► they just are not made for that kind of power consumption

00:45:09 ◼   ► and performance class at that high end.

00:45:12 ◼   ► And because they have this unified memory architecture

00:45:16 ◼   ► where everything is together as one big thing,

00:45:19 ◼   ► I don't see them ever making anything

00:45:21 ◼   ► that is going to be in that class,

00:45:24 ◼   ► unless they go for something radically different

00:45:27 ◼   ► than what they've made so far with the M line,

00:45:29 ◼   ► which would be, for instance, like a slotted GPU

00:45:33 ◼   ► that has its own memory and is not part

00:45:36 ◼   ► of the unified memory architecture

00:45:37 ◼   ► of the rest of the system and everything else.

00:45:39 ◼   ► And they can do that if they want to.

00:45:41 ◼   ► There's nothing saying they can't do that,

00:45:43 ◼   ► But I really decreasingly see the likelihood

00:45:47 ◼   ► of them doing that for one product, the Mac Pro.

00:45:51 ◼   ► And that's why my theory from the beginning here

00:45:54 ◼   ► has been there isn't going to be an M series Mac Pro

00:45:59 ◼   ► that uses third party GPUs or even has slots for other GPUs

00:46:04 ◼   ► and possibly has slots for anything.

00:46:06 ◼   ► We'll see about that.

00:46:07 ◼   ► But yeah, I just, I wonder too,

00:46:11 ◼   ► maybe what they're seeing in the market

00:46:14 ◼   ► is that maybe they actually finally don't have enough reason

00:46:18 ◼   ► to address this market.

00:46:20 ◼   ► Maybe they're okay saying, you know what,

00:46:23 ◼   ► the performance level that we offer in the Mac Studio

00:46:27 ◼   ► is enough for our highest end users and that's fine.

00:46:31 ◼   ► I don't necessarily agree with that,

00:46:33 ◼   ► but maybe that's what they're seeing, I don't know.

00:46:35 ◼   ► And certainly as Apple Silicon has gotten so, so good

00:46:39 ◼   ► and these new Macs that use it are so good

00:46:41 ◼   ► so fast and so powerful, many people, myself included,

00:46:45 ◼   ► and maybe this is just me seeing my own needs

00:46:47 ◼   ► and overestimating other people's resemblance to them,

00:46:50 ◼   ► but many people have been able to go down a level

00:46:54 ◼   ► in product line in terms of what kind of power

00:46:57 ◼   ► they quote need for their work.

00:46:59 ◼   ► I used to get the most powerful desktops,

00:47:02 ◼   ► then I was okay with iMacs, then I was okay,

00:47:04 ◼   ► now I'm okay with a laptop that happens to have

00:47:07 ◼   ► the M1 Macs and all this crazy RAM and ridiculous

00:47:11 ◼   ► SSD speeds and huge CPU power, you know,

00:47:15 ◼   ► it's all on a laptop and that's enough

00:47:16 ◼   ► for my needs right now.

00:47:18 ◼   ► Maybe enough people have had their needs shift

00:47:22 ◼   ► down the lineup in terms of like being able

00:47:25 ◼   ► to get away with or even be very happy with something like

00:47:29 ◼   ► a MacBook Pro or a Mac Studio that maybe this high end

00:47:33 ◼   ► market is not enough for them anymore to justify this.

00:47:36 ◼   ► And maybe, you know, at the same time,

00:47:39 ◼   ► I think a lot of high-end video users

00:47:41 ◼   ► have moved away from Apple in general,

00:47:43 ◼   ► like over the last decade or so.

00:47:45 ◼   ► So there's shifts in the marketplace there as well.

00:47:48 ◼   ► So I don't know, it seems like most of the demand these days

00:47:53 ◼   ► for all that massive GPU grunt

00:47:56 ◼   ► is in doing things like AI training,

00:48:00 ◼   ► where you actually are kinda not really,

00:48:02 ◼   ► you're not really doing that on a Mac full of,

00:48:06 ◼   ► full of Mac video cards, necessarily.

00:48:08 ◼   ► - They have dedicated hardware for that.

00:48:10 ◼   ► If you needed the big power on that,

00:48:12 ◼   ► you'd use one of those TPU things or whatever,

00:48:14 ◼   ► like actual silicon made for that.

00:48:16 ◼   ► - Right, but there's never been a CUDA story

00:48:18 ◼   ► on the Mac and stuff like that.

00:48:19 ◼   ► So there's all these areas of high end computing

00:48:21 ◼   ► that the Mac either has kind of lost over time

00:48:24 ◼   ► or was never really in to begin with.

00:48:27 ◼   ► And so I wonder, look, they've been getting away just fine

00:48:32 ◼   ► for the last couple of years not having

00:48:36 ◼   ► a new high-end Mac Pro, not having a Mac Pro

00:48:39 ◼   ► that used the modern processors,

00:48:42 ◼   ► and it's been pretty much fine.

00:48:45 ◼   ► I don't know a lot of people who are clamoring

00:48:49 ◼   ► for an Apple Silicon-based Mac Pro

00:48:52 ◼   ► that also has a bunch of GPU card slots.

00:48:56 ◼   ► I'm sure there are those people,

00:48:57 ◼   ► but are there enough to justify

00:49:00 ◼   ► this hugely different architecture

00:49:02 ◼   ► from all the rest of their Macs that use the same chip?

00:49:06 ◼   ► Probably not.

00:49:08 ◼   ► - I mean, this story is saying that they can't even

00:49:10 ◼   ► justify making a 4X cookie, you know,

00:49:13 ◼   ► not as easy as cookie cutter,

00:49:15 ◼   ► but like the whole idea of the double and quad

00:49:19 ◼   ► is let's reuse our investment in the computers

00:49:21 ◼   ► that actually sell, like the notebooks.

00:49:23 ◼   ► They were never making a custom custom thing.

00:49:25 ◼   ► I said, we can't just clean sheet,

00:49:28 ◼   ► make a Mac Pro processor, right?

00:49:29 ◼   ► We have to start with processors we use on our laptops.

00:49:32 ◼   ► Can we do a bunch of work to weave them together

00:49:35 ◼   ► to make a big one?

00:49:35 ◼   ► And they're saying, we can't even justify that

00:49:38 ◼   ► in the Forex case.

00:49:39 ◼   ► And that's not the custom one, right?

00:49:41 ◼   ► 'Cause they're like, it's just too expensive,

00:49:43 ◼   ► too big or whatever.

00:49:43 ◼   ► And by the way, what you said before about like the GPUs,

00:49:46 ◼   ► high-end GPUs using hundreds of watts by themselves,

00:49:48 ◼   ► if you put four of these things together like this,

00:49:51 ◼   ► that whole arrangement will take hundreds of watts.

00:49:53 ◼   ► Like they can, they are within the same power envelope

00:49:57 ◼   ► as a single top-end GPU plus CPU combination, right?

00:50:01 ◼   ► So it's not like the architecture

00:50:03 ◼   ► can't scale up to that level.

00:50:05 ◼   ► It can, and it would.

00:50:06 ◼   ► If they put four of them together,

00:50:07 ◼   ► it would take hundreds of watts.

00:50:09 ◼   ► It would be, you'd crank it up,

00:50:10 ◼   ► and it would be a heck of a thing, right?

00:50:13 ◼   ► And it would require very fancy custom cooling,

00:50:15 ◼   ► and the interconnect would be very impressive or whatever.

00:50:18 ◼   ► But they're saying, "No, we can't even justify

00:50:20 ◼   ► "the investment in that,

00:50:22 ◼   ► "'cause we don't think it's worthwhile,

00:50:23 ◼   ► "and we don't have enough people who are gonna buy it,

00:50:25 ◼   ► "and it's gonna take up."

00:50:26 ◼   ► because you can imagine how big that would be.

00:50:28 ◼   ► The advantage of having even a Xeon CPU

00:50:31 ◼   ► plus a separate GPU is that you don't have to put it all

00:50:33 ◼   ► in one package, right?

00:50:36 ◼   ► It's not one die, but one package, right?

00:50:38 ◼   ► This would be, what, four dies, four M2 maxes

00:50:41 ◼   ► in one massive package arrangement?

00:50:43 ◼   ► That is a complicated beast to make, right?

00:50:46 ◼   ► Much more complicated than getting an Intel CPU

00:50:49 ◼   ► and then an Nvidia GPU and a PCI bus between them.

00:50:53 ◼   ► And so they can't justify the investment in that.

00:50:56 ◼   ► I think like an M2 Ultra,

00:51:00 ◼   ► put the same thing in the studio

00:51:01 ◼   ► and basically make the Mac Pro be a Mac studio

00:51:03 ◼   ► but with more expandability.

00:51:05 ◼   ► That will cover most of their needs.

00:51:08 ◼   ► But even for something as simple as the three games

00:51:13 ◼   ► that are optimized per year for Metal,

00:51:15 ◼   ► like whatever it was recently,

00:51:16 ◼   ► they did like a Resident Evil port,

00:51:18 ◼   ► the latest Resident Evil,

00:51:19 ◼   ► two years after it comes out on every other platform

00:51:21 ◼   ► they had a Mac port of it.

00:51:22 ◼   ► And by all reports, the Mac port is amazing.

00:51:24 ◼   ► It takes amazing advantage of Apple's metal architecture,

00:51:27 ◼   ► and it runs at really good frame rates

00:51:30 ◼   ► at very low temperatures

00:51:32 ◼   ► and without a huge amount of fan noise,

00:51:34 ◼   ► as it is an impressive game, right?

00:51:36 ◼   ► It's not like those use cases don't exist,

00:51:39 ◼   ► but it seems like the balance that Apple has struck,

00:51:42 ◼   ► like when they make these system-mounted chips,

00:51:44 ◼   ► they say, "How many CPU cores?

00:51:45 ◼   ► "How many neural engines?

00:51:46 ◼   ► "How many H.264 and H.265 decoder encoders?

00:51:50 ◼   ► "How many ProRes encoders?"

00:51:51 ◼   ► sort of the recipe for the SOC,

00:51:53 ◼   ► their recipes have been very sort of balanced.

00:51:56 ◼   ► Not too much CPU, not too much GPU,

00:51:59 ◼   ► just kind of a nice arrangement of stuff

00:52:01 ◼   ► that really hits the sweet spot for,

00:52:03 ◼   ► let's say, high-end notebook, right?

00:52:05 ◼   ► It has most, your use case aside, Mark,

00:52:08 ◼   ► where you're like, I don't need all the GPU cores,

00:52:10 ◼   ► it's a pretty good balance for most things

00:52:12 ◼   ► that most people want to do.

00:52:14 ◼   ► If they can never move out of that sweet spot,

00:52:18 ◼   ► they're never going to get like the low-end thing

00:52:21 ◼   ► that changes the balance heavily in favor of CPU

00:52:23 ◼   ► or runs headless or something, right?

00:52:26 ◼   ► With not a lot of GPU grant.

00:52:27 ◼   ► Or the high-end one, where you take a small number

00:52:29 ◼   ► of CPU cores and much, much more GPU, right?

00:52:33 ◼   ► They don't seem so far willing to go in those directions.

00:52:36 ◼   ► So if they don't go in those directions

00:52:38 ◼   ► and they're not willing to even take forward

00:52:39 ◼   ► their sort of well-balanced little things

00:52:41 ◼   ► and put them together, they're kind of boxing themselves

00:52:44 ◼   ► out of sort of top-end GPU performance.

00:52:48 ◼   ► Not even top-end, but sort of just high-end, right?

00:52:50 ◼   ► And it's not like, it's very often in their demonstrations,

00:52:54 ◼   ► they will show a piece of software

00:52:56 ◼   ► or even just simple 3D stuff where,

00:52:58 ◼   ► especially with like 6K screens and stuff,

00:53:00 ◼   ► you can get some fairly trivial,

00:53:02 ◼   ► like scene kit demo application that can pull down,

00:53:07 ◼   ► pull the frame rates down on a powerful Mac

00:53:10 ◼   ► because you don't have enough GPU grunt

00:53:12 ◼   ► to do all those pixel shaders on a 6K screen.

00:53:15 ◼   ► And that seems like, it kind of seems like,

00:53:18 ◼   ► I was gonna try and use a car analogy,

00:53:19 ◼   ► but I can't think of a more recent one,

00:53:20 ◼   ► but it's like, I'll use an even more obscure analogy.

00:53:23 ◼   ► When the Power Mac G4 had a front side bus

00:53:26 ◼   ► that was hilariously slower than the CPU,

00:53:29 ◼   ► I forget what it was, but the CPU was like

00:53:31 ◼   ► at four or 500 megahertz and the front side bus

00:53:33 ◼   ► is like at a hundred megahertz

00:53:34 ◼   ► and it was just so RAM starved and so unbalanced.

00:53:38 ◼   ► If you're shipping a screen with 6K pixels,

00:53:41 ◼   ► but you can't drive a fancy looking 3D scene

00:53:44 ◼   ► that uses all those pixels, even on your most expensive Mac

00:53:47 ◼   ► because you just don't have enough GPU cores

00:53:50 ◼   ► by the way you no longer have slots, that's not a good look.

00:53:53 ◼   ► So I feel like if you're going to extend the Mac line up to a high end, and you should,

00:53:59 ◼   ► you can have something.

00:54:01 ◼   ► Even if it's really expensive and nobody buys it, there has to be some kind of offering

00:54:04 ◼   ► there because right now there still are some customers and some applications that use it.

00:54:08 ◼   ► I forget what the app that was being demoed when the Mac Pro was introduced, but you remember

00:54:12 ◼   ► there was a Pixar thing showing a big 3D scene?

00:54:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, it showed, when we went, when we were at WWDC,

00:54:18 ◼   ► and we were able to go to that like,

00:54:20 ◼   ► not really hands-on, but kind of hands-on area,

00:54:22 ◼   ► there was somebody from Pixar showing the Mac Pro,

00:54:25 ◼   ► and they showed the entirety of the town

00:54:28 ◼   ► that most of Toy Story 4 took place in,

00:54:31 ◼   ► like the fair and everything.

00:54:32 ◼   ► And you could zoom in and out, pan around,

00:54:35 ◼   ► and it was the entire fair, like that entire fair

00:54:38 ◼   ► and the town and everything associated with it

00:54:39 ◼   ► was being rendered in real time.

00:54:42 ◼   ► And it wasn't, you know, perfect cinematic quality,

00:54:44 ◼   ► but it was stunningly good.

00:54:45 ◼   ► And you could zip around that thing like it was nothing.

00:54:48 ◼   ► It was amazing.

00:54:49 ◼   ► - All right, my recollection of that is

00:54:51 ◼   ► you could still make the thing chug

00:54:52 ◼   ► if you looked at the right thing.

00:54:54 ◼   ► Like the frame rates weren't, you know,

00:54:56 ◼   ► they weren't even up to 60 frames per second all the time,

00:54:58 ◼   ► let alone higher refresh rates

00:55:00 ◼   ► that presumably future Macs will have, right?

00:55:03 ◼   ► So I don't think it's the end of the world

00:55:05 ◼   ► if they just make an M2 Ultra.

00:55:07 ◼   ► And in fact, if they made that extreme quad one,

00:55:10 ◼   ► it's not like I would buy it

00:55:10 ◼   ► 'cause I think it would just be too expensive,

00:55:13 ◼   ► but it's a shame that if they don't have any other GPU answer

00:55:18 ◼   ► that the 2019 Mac Pro will still be the GPU king

00:55:22 ◼   ► simply because you can shove more GPU in it, right?

00:55:25 ◼   ► And it'll be super sad if, like I said,

00:55:27 ◼   ► the M2 Extreme, they rumored,

00:55:31 ◼   ► has a similar amount of, or not the M2 Extreme,

00:55:34 ◼   ► the M2 Ultra, like the 2X one,

00:55:37 ◼   ► has a lower metal score than my current Mac Pro,

00:55:42 ◼   ► my current one.

00:55:43 ◼   ► And granted, MetalScore is like when you're combining

00:55:45 ◼   ► both the GPUs, so it's not like I'd be able to run a game

00:55:47 ◼   ► at higher frame rates, but I could buy a Radeon Pro 6900

00:55:52 ◼   ► from Apple for a hugely ridiculous price

00:55:56 ◼   ► that would also be faster than the rumored M2 Ultra, right?

00:56:00 ◼   ► That's not great, that's like last generation card

00:56:03 ◼   ► and I can put it in my Mac, just one of them,

00:56:05 ◼   ► and be faster than the M2 Ultra,

00:56:07 ◼   ► so I don't know what their pitch would be.

00:56:09 ◼   ► It would be like, oh, we've got the M2 Mac Studio,

00:56:11 ◼   ► which is great and it's small and blah, blah, blah.

00:56:13 ◼   ► And we've got the Mac Pro,

00:56:15 ◼   ► which is just like the Mac Studio, but it holds more RAM.

00:56:18 ◼   ► I don't know what the pitch is,

00:56:21 ◼   ► if it just holds more RAM and more CPU.

00:56:23 ◼   ► Like those are the two, and those are good,

00:56:25 ◼   ► and people might need those, but I don't know.

00:56:28 ◼   ► The mystery deepens here.

00:56:30 ◼   ► I really feel like Apple could solve their problems

00:56:33 ◼   ► by supporting third-party GPUs in card slots,

00:56:35 ◼   ► which is what everybody else does.

00:56:37 ◼   ► And yeah, you could still ship a really good one on the SoC,

00:56:40 ◼   ► But for the people who want the third-party ones,

00:56:42 ◼   ► it would be nice if they're there,

00:56:43 ◼   ► but we've talked to this to death in the past.

00:56:46 ◼   ► Shows it just doesn't make sense

00:56:47 ◼   ► from the unified memory architecture thing, right?

00:56:50 ◼   ► That's why we keep going around in this circle,

00:56:52 ◼   ► 'cause it doesn't make any sense.

00:56:54 ◼   ► It doesn't make any sense to offer card slots,

00:56:57 ◼   ► and now with this rumor, it almost doesn't make sense

00:56:59 ◼   ► not to offer card slots.

00:57:00 ◼   ► - So I wanna pull on that a little bit.

00:57:03 ◼   ► I am talking well outside my depth,

00:57:06 ◼   ► and I don't particularly care about the Mac Pro

00:57:08 ◼   ► in the grand scheme of things,

00:57:09 ◼   ► But from my recollection, when we were initially pitched

00:57:12 ◼   ► on the M1, which was what, WWDC 2020, I think?

00:57:17 ◼   ► Something like that?

00:57:19 ◼   ► We were told that, hey, the thing that makes this amazing

00:57:22 ◼   ► is the unified memory architecture.

00:57:24 ◼   ► And the fact that the standard vanilla RAM

00:57:28 ◼   ► is shared with the video cards.

00:57:30 ◼   ► So a lot of the time that you would be waiting

00:57:32 ◼   ► for things to be copied about and moved around and whatnot,

00:57:35 ◼   ► there is no waiting because it's all the same batch.

00:57:38 ◼   ► It's all the same batch of RAM.

00:57:39 ◼   ► It's a unified memory architecture.

00:57:42 ◼   ► - And also that memory happens to be really fast

00:57:44 ◼   ► 'cause it's also really, really close to the CPU.

00:57:46 ◼   ► - Right.

00:57:47 ◼   ► So if a lot, probably not all,

00:57:51 ◼   ► because I know the SSDs are also extremely fast

00:57:53 ◼   ► in these things, there's a lot of other stuff around this.

00:57:55 ◼   ► But I thought that one of the big things

00:57:57 ◼   ► about the M1 architecture and M2 now

00:57:58 ◼   ► and so on and so forth,

00:57:59 ◼   ► is that the unified memory architecture

00:58:02 ◼   ► is a very kind of wild way of making a CPU/GPU combination

00:58:07 ◼   ► that not a lot of people are doing,

00:58:09 ◼   ► and Apple did it so well, and it is so damn fast,

00:58:11 ◼   ► that that's where so much of the speed comes from,

00:58:14 ◼   ► and efficiency, but particularly speed.

00:58:16 ◼   ► So, and you've kind of alluded to this, Jon,

00:58:17 ◼   ► but I wanted to ask you directly,

00:58:20 ◼   ► doesn't having a card with a GPU,

00:58:24 ◼   ► doesn't that take away a lot of the benefit,

00:58:26 ◼   ► all of the benefit of a unified memory architecture?

00:58:28 ◼   ► 'Cause it ain't unified anymore.

00:58:30 ◼   ► So like, would it even be worthwhile?

00:58:33 ◼   ► Is that what we really want?

00:58:35 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:58:36 ◼   ► - Well, I think it depends on the workload to some degree.

00:58:38 ◼   ► If you think about how this kind of system would be built

00:58:43 ◼   ► if there is a theoretical new Mac Pro

00:58:47 ◼   ► that has card slots that can support GPUs,

00:58:50 ◼   ► I think all three of those are questionable.

00:58:54 ◼   ► Like whether there even will be a Mac Pro

00:58:56 ◼   ► and whether it will have card slots

00:58:58 ◼   ► and whether those card slots will support GPUs.

00:59:00 ◼   ► But assume we have all three of those.

00:59:02 ◼   ► - Apple said we have Mac Pro.

00:59:04 ◼   ► They just, remember they said,

00:59:05 ◼   ► where we'll talk about that another day.

00:59:06 ◼   ► Like they publicly announced it,

00:59:08 ◼   ► so I really feel like it's still coming.

00:59:11 ◼   ► Something's coming.

00:59:12 ◼   ► - I have one, I have two, maybe one word for you.

00:59:15 ◼   ► - Air power, yeah I know.

00:59:16 ◼   ► - Air power.

00:59:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, I know, well.

00:59:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, we'll see.

00:59:18 ◼   ► But anyway, so if you look at like,

00:59:20 ◼   ► already we can make some assumptions.

00:59:22 ◼   ► Like there would be, presumably,

00:59:25 ◼   ► some kind of M2 or M3, Ultra Max Extreme,

00:59:28 ◼   ► whatever it would be, a whole bunch of M CPUs glued together

00:59:32 ◼   ► as the main processors of the whole thing.

00:59:35 ◼   ► If they're gonna have socketed memory,

00:59:38 ◼   ► then maybe the chip would have some kind of massive

00:59:42 ◼   ► like L2 or L3 cache, but for the most part,

00:59:46 ◼   ► I think main memory would just be its own bank of stuff.

00:59:50 ◼   ► Because otherwise, they're never gonna hit the 1.5 terabytes

00:59:54 ◼   ► that the current 2019 Mac Pro offers.

00:59:56 ◼   ► - They're just, yeah, they're just not gonna hit that

00:59:59 ◼   ► on the SoC, and I feel like they're,

01:00:02 ◼   ► it's easier for them to give up on the 1.5 terabytes of RAM,

01:00:05 ◼   ► which was mostly just like a silly bragging point,

01:00:07 ◼   ► than it is for them to give up on the GPUs,

01:00:10 ◼   ► because they're top-end GPU, you can just buy it,

01:00:14 ◼   ► and it gives you a metal score that's higher

01:00:16 ◼   ► than the rumored M2 Ultra thing.

01:00:19 ◼   ► But how many people ever buy with 1.5 terabytes of RAM?

01:00:22 ◼   ► So the tiered RAM, and there were rumors of that,

01:00:24 ◼   ► seems less likely to me than slotted GPUs.

01:00:28 ◼   ► - Yeah, and also, you look at the way

01:00:31 ◼   ► that PCs are structured now.

01:00:34 ◼   ► Like the architecture already supports GPUs

01:00:37 ◼   ► having not only access to system RAM

01:00:40 ◼   ► through various like fast methods

01:00:42 ◼   ► and you know dedicated buses and things like that,

01:00:44 ◼   ► but also they have access to their own giant pool of RAM

01:00:47 ◼   ► each and workloads and schedulers and everything

01:00:51 ◼   ► are already designed to distribute work to multiple GPUs,

01:00:56 ◼   ► each of which has its own pool of RAM.

01:00:58 ◼   ► And you know that's what John's Mac Pro is doing.

01:01:00 ◼   ► That's how it can achieve these high scores.

01:01:02 ◼   ► So it is possible to do all of that

01:01:06 ◼   ► with the Apple Silicon architecture, I'm sure.

01:01:10 ◼   ► It would take work and there would be different trade-offs.

01:01:14 ◼   ► Having it unified, you probably have lower latencies

01:01:17 ◼   ► in certain ways, you might have higher bandwidths

01:01:18 ◼   ► in certain areas, almost certainly.

01:01:21 ◼   ► So chances are if there was such a Mac Pro

01:01:27 ◼   ► that had only slotted GPUs and only socketed RAM,

01:01:32 ◼   ► maybe they would actually be slower

01:01:34 ◼   ► in certain microbenchmarks because they wouldn't,

01:01:37 ◼   ► the RAM would be a little bit higher latency

01:01:39 ◼   ► or a little bit lower bandwidth or whatever it would be,

01:01:41 ◼   ► but that when doing these massive jobs

01:01:44 ◼   ► that people would buy these machines for,

01:01:46 ◼   ► overall they would be able to outperform

01:01:49 ◼   ► the MacStudio and the MacBook Pro and things like that

01:01:51 ◼   ► because they would be able to dispatch all this work around

01:01:55 ◼   ► and the increased latency would be made up for

01:01:59 ◼   ► by just the massive amount of parallel power

01:02:02 ◼   ► and total resources you'd have at your disposal.

01:02:05 ◼   ► So it doesn't necessarily say that it would be guaranteed

01:02:09 ◼   ► slower or worse, it would just be a different trade off.

01:02:12 ◼   ► - Yeah, mostly what you're getting

01:02:13 ◼   ► with the unified memory architecture,

01:02:14 ◼   ► like it's an efficiency choice.

01:02:15 ◼   ► And I don't mean efficiency in terms of power usage,

01:02:17 ◼   ► oh, that is definitely there as well.

01:02:19 ◼   ► I mean in terms of how much stuff do you have to spend money

01:02:23 ◼   ► on to put into your computer.

01:02:24 ◼   ► So with separate GPU slots,

01:02:26 ◼   ► like these GPU come with like 32 gigs of RAM.

01:02:28 ◼   ► That used to be the maximum you could even put

01:02:30 ◼   ► in an entire machine with an M1 SOC before the Mac Studio

01:02:35 ◼   ► or whatever broke through that barrier was.

01:02:37 ◼   ► So you have to get so much more stuff.

01:02:39 ◼   ► So you get this video, top-end video card,

01:02:42 ◼   ► which has huge numbers of GPU cores on it.

01:02:45 ◼   ► Just a massive chip just filled with GPU.

01:02:48 ◼   ► And then it has its own 32 gigs of RAM

01:02:51 ◼   ► that is special, extremely high bandwidth RAM,

01:02:55 ◼   ► really, really close to that GPU.

01:02:57 ◼   ► That's just like a complete duplication of effort

01:02:59 ◼   ► of the stuff that's in the main SoC,

01:03:01 ◼   ► 'cause the SoC's already got the GPU cores

01:03:03 ◼   ► and RAM real close to it

01:03:04 ◼   ► that's really high speed and special.

01:03:06 ◼   ► Now you've got a second copy of that

01:03:07 ◼   ► only without as many CPU cores,

01:03:09 ◼   ► although they do have CPU cores there, of course,

01:03:12 ◼   ► on an entire card, and they communicate over the PCI bus.

01:03:15 ◼   ► Right, and then you could have multiples of those cards.

01:03:16 ◼   ► You could have multiple GPUs on a single card.

01:03:18 ◼   ► It is inefficient in terms of money.

01:03:21 ◼   ► You have to pay for all that stuff,

01:03:23 ◼   ► and then power, just to power the card and everything.

01:03:26 ◼   ► It's a duplication of effort.

01:03:28 ◼   ► And yes, there is a runtime cost to that sometimes

01:03:30 ◼   ► in terms of transferring data back and forth,

01:03:32 ◼   ► but you can solve that problem

01:03:34 ◼   ► by just adding more resources most of the time.

01:03:36 ◼   ► If you have enough VRAM on your dedicated GPU,

01:03:41 ◼   ► most things that you do with GPUs

01:03:44 ◼   ► don't require constant shuttling of data back and forth

01:03:47 ◼   ► to the point where you're saturating the bandwidth,

01:03:49 ◼   ► and that is your limiting factor.

01:03:51 ◼   ► That's why they have so much RAM in both of these places.

01:03:54 ◼   ► There are some situations that are like that

01:03:55 ◼   ► where Apple's SOCs excel

01:03:57 ◼   ► because they don't have to copy the data.

01:03:58 ◼   ► That's what of course they're going to brag about.

01:04:00 ◼   ► And definitely on situations

01:04:02 ◼   ► where you actually have a power budget or a battery,

01:04:04 ◼   ► you do not want to have a complete duplication

01:04:06 ◼   ► of resources elsewhere.

01:04:07 ◼   ► But again, in looking at the line,

01:04:10 ◼   ► I think I say what machine should spend money, resources,

01:04:13 ◼   ► space, heat, power, dollars, you know, everything

01:04:17 ◼   ► on a duplication of resources

01:04:19 ◼   ► just to get that top end maximum power?

01:04:20 ◼   ► it would be the Mac Pro, right?

01:04:22 ◼   ► It's the reason they sold it with that dual,

01:04:24 ◼   ► whatever, Apple itself sold dual GPU cards,

01:04:28 ◼   ► and you could get two dual GPU cards,

01:04:30 ◼   ► and so you would have four high-end GPUs

01:04:32 ◼   ► shoved into your Mac Pro.

01:04:34 ◼   ► And it only seems less ridiculous

01:04:36 ◼   ► because we don't think of the Xeon CPU

01:04:37 ◼   ► as having any kind of integrated graphics.

01:04:40 ◼   ► I think it has none.

01:04:41 ◼   ► I asked that question last time.

01:04:42 ◼   ► I don't remember what the answer was, right?

01:04:44 ◼   ► But having something with a huge amount of GPU,

01:04:48 ◼   ► a huge amount of really fast GPU on the SoC

01:04:50 ◼   ► And then also third-party GPUs, you'd only do that

01:04:54 ◼   ► if you feel like, well, I gotta pay for this GPU on the SOC,

01:04:58 ◼   ► but I actually need more than that.

01:04:59 ◼   ► I need more GPU cores.

01:05:01 ◼   ► I can do my work twice as fast

01:05:03 ◼   ► if I have twice as many GPU cores,

01:05:06 ◼   ► and I'm willing to pay for them.

01:05:08 ◼   ► Apple should, I think, be willing to sell you that

01:05:10 ◼   ► and say, well, you're kinda wasting the GPU cores on here

01:05:13 ◼   ► unless the software is written well enough

01:05:14 ◼   ► to be able to use them all at once.

01:05:16 ◼   ► And it could be, 'cause Apple's frameworks

01:05:17 ◼   ► lets you sort of use the computing resources

01:05:20 ◼   ► wherever they are.

01:05:22 ◼   ► But lots of workloads are written with the expectation

01:05:25 ◼   ► that you're not going to have a unified memory architecture.

01:05:28 ◼   ► You will have to transfer stuff from regular RAM to VRAM,

01:05:31 ◼   ► and that's OK.

01:05:31 ◼   ► And the programs account for it.

01:05:34 ◼   ► And what some customers really need

01:05:36 ◼   ► is I just need as many of those GPU cores as possible.

01:05:39 ◼   ► I'm willing to spend 800 watts on it.

01:05:40 ◼   ► Just give them to me, right?

01:05:42 ◼   ► Apple should, I think, offer that.

01:05:45 ◼   ► And that's why I'm still holding out hope for a GPU card slot.

01:05:47 ◼   ► But I think I would actually be happier if they found some way to put enough GPUs to

01:05:57 ◼   ► be competitive, not the best, but competitive.

01:05:59 ◼   ► Because if they're competitive in their overall middle score on an SoC, they're going to crush

01:06:04 ◼   ► it in anything that is bottlenecked on bandwidth back and forth to the VRAM, because they don't

01:06:10 ◼   ► have to do that, right?

01:06:11 ◼   ► And so I think that solution, Apple can brag about it and say, "Oh, they'll put up one

01:06:15 ◼   ► on those graphs say, look how much faster we are

01:06:17 ◼   ► than even the top-end Nvidia card.

01:06:19 ◼   ► And they'd pick some particular benchmark

01:06:21 ◼   ► that really benefits from the SOC

01:06:24 ◼   ► and unified memory architecture.

01:06:25 ◼   ► And they would show them crushing Nvidia

01:06:26 ◼   ► and just ignore all the ones where Nvidia crushes them

01:06:28 ◼   ► or whatever, right?

01:06:29 ◼   ► That's fine.

01:06:30 ◼   ► That's the Apple way to do it.

01:06:31 ◼   ► Like have something, that's a unique selling proposition.

01:06:34 ◼   ► We make different performance trade-offs than Nvidia.

01:06:37 ◼   ► That's why you might consider us instead of Nvidia.

01:06:39 ◼   ► We're not just our own CPU plus an Nvidia card

01:06:43 ◼   ► 'cause we don't like them or whatever.

01:06:44 ◼   ► But this situation where you're like,

01:06:47 ◼   ► we're not competitive at all,

01:06:49 ◼   ► and we don't offer card slots,

01:06:50 ◼   ► but if you need a little bit more than a MacStudio,

01:06:53 ◼   ► the Mac Pro is for you.

01:06:54 ◼   ► That's not as exciting.

01:06:57 ◼   ► And so I really hope, I mean, you know,

01:06:58 ◼   ► I hope they keep making Mac Pros forever.

01:07:01 ◼   ► And so they get another shot at this with the M3,

01:07:04 ◼   ► they can make different choices.

01:07:05 ◼   ► They have lots of great building blocks.

01:07:07 ◼   ► Their GPU cores look like they're really good,

01:07:09 ◼   ► like in terms of what they do for the power they're given

01:07:11 ◼   ► and the space and everything.

01:07:12 ◼   ► Their CPU cores are phenomenal, right?

01:07:15 ◼   ► It's just a question of how do we divide up

01:07:17 ◼   ► these components, what kind of ratios do we choose?

01:07:20 ◼   ► Maybe they'll make some interesting choices

01:07:22 ◼   ► in terms of arrangement of stuff for the headset.

01:07:25 ◼   ► Or who knows, maybe they'll just use watch CPUs,

01:07:27 ◼   ► I don't know, like.

01:07:28 ◼   ► But I think the headset might end up needing

01:07:31 ◼   ► a little more GPU grunt and a little bit less CPU grunt,

01:07:34 ◼   ► so maybe they'll make a different arrangement in that.

01:07:36 ◼   ► I continue to have confidence in their overall architecture

01:07:40 ◼   ► because I think they have all the building blocks,

01:07:42 ◼   ► It's just a question of how do they dull them out

01:07:44 ◼   ► to their individual machines.

01:07:46 ◼   ► And this rumor is essentially a story of them

01:07:49 ◼   ► changing their mind and making different trade-offs.

01:07:51 ◼   ► And when they ship a product, we'll see how it goes.

01:07:54 ◼   ► - Were you sad?

01:07:55 ◼   ► I mean this genuinely,

01:07:56 ◼   ► like I'm not trying to poke the bear here,

01:07:58 ◼   ► but are you sad reading this?

01:08:00 ◼   ► - Not really, 'cause like I said,

01:08:01 ◼   ► I don't think I would ever buy the Forex one

01:08:02 ◼   ► 'cause it would just be so expensive.

01:08:05 ◼   ► I mean, I selfishly hope they do have GPU card slots

01:08:08 ◼   ► 'cause that's my most efficient, money-wise,

01:08:12 ◼   ► path to get good GPU power.

01:08:16 ◼   ► Mostly at this point, what I care about is a case design

01:08:19 ◼   ► with a better cooling solution than the MacStudio,

01:08:22 ◼   ► you know what I mean?

01:08:23 ◼   ► 'Cause I like the cooling solution on my Mac Pro.

01:08:25 ◼   ► It's a really big case and with really big,

01:08:27 ◼   ► slow-moving fans.

01:08:28 ◼   ► The MacStudio is not that.

01:08:30 ◼   ► It's not as good.

01:08:31 ◼   ► So if they introduce a new Mac Pro,

01:08:35 ◼   ► obviously whatever Mac Pro they introduce

01:08:36 ◼   ► is gonna be so much faster than this,

01:08:37 ◼   ► except maybe in GPU.

01:08:40 ◼   ► But assuming it is within the ballpark

01:08:41 ◼   ► and I eventually replace this machine,

01:08:43 ◼   ► I would like it to be with something

01:08:44 ◼   ► that I don't have to bolt to the bottom of my desk

01:08:46 ◼   ► because it's too noisy.

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01:09:46 ◼   ► I mean, this is just incredible talent

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01:10:27 ◼   ► Thank you so much to MasterClass for sponsoring our show.

01:10:32 ◼   ► Let's do some Ask ATP.

01:10:36 ◼   ► Arthur Dickerson writes, "Do any of you journal, handwritten or in an app?"

01:10:40 ◼   ► I will start and I will tell you that I am a devout Day One user.

01:10:44 ◼   ► I don't think they've sponsored the show.

01:10:47 ◼   ► They may have a long time ago, but I don't think they have.

01:10:51 ◼   ► Day One is a journaling app that actually, come to think of it, I think I stumbled upon

01:10:55 ◼   ► Day One when Marco and Tiff and Aaron and I went to Germany because I wanted to have

01:11:00 ◼   ► a way to take note of the things that the four of us did, but do that not on Foursquare

01:11:06 ◼   ► and not on Twitter, not on Instagram, but somewhere that was private for just me. And

01:11:11 ◼   ► I'm pretty sure it was the Germany trip that started me down this path. And day one does

01:11:15 ◼   ► let you say, you know, I've been, I'm here and it lets you geotag things and so on and

01:11:18 ◼   ► so forth. But I had been using it on and off ever since then in 2013, but I got really,

01:11:24 ◼   ► really serious about it around the time of the pandemic because I thought, oh, what a

01:11:29 ◼   ► fun chronicle this will be of the two weeks of the pandemic, right? Right? Right? Right?

01:11:36 ◼   ► So I was, I began the pandemic on March 13th of 2020, not that I remember, trying to make

01:11:42 ◼   ► sure that at least once a day I take note of something that happened that day, typically

01:11:46 ◼   ► with a picture if I can, but if I don't, you know, I'll write something down. And I've

01:11:50 ◼   ► been going, I think every single day since the 13th of March, 2020. And I really like

01:11:57 ◼   ► day one. Again, you know, I don't think they've sponsored in the past. They're certainly not

01:12:00 ◼   ► sponsoring now, but I really like day one because it's private. It's very reliable in

01:12:04 ◼   ► my use and it does basically everything I want it to do and not too much more. And I

01:12:12 ◼   ► mean that in a complimentary way. It lets you make audio recordings if that's your thing.

01:12:18 ◼   ► You can put videos on there. It all syncs with their own proprietary system. And it's

01:12:22 ◼   ► It's pretty darn reliable and it's very quick.

01:12:26 ◼   ► It's easy to get in and out.

01:12:27 ◼   ► It has a really great feature that shows you what happened on this day in years past.

01:12:31 ◼   ► I really, really, really like it a lot.

01:12:33 ◼   ► And I use it mostly for just taking note of things that we did during the day that are

01:12:39 ◼   ► even mildly noteworthy.

01:12:41 ◼   ► I try to be very, very religious with it when I'm traveling because it's so easy to forget

01:12:47 ◼   ► the ins and outs of a WWDC trip, as an example.

01:12:51 ◼   ► And my family's actually going on our first plane vacation since 2019 in just a couple

01:12:55 ◼   ► of weeks.

01:12:56 ◼   ► And I'll be using it a lot then as well.

01:12:58 ◼   ► And it's such a great way to say, "Oh, we ate at such and such a restaurant."

01:13:01 ◼   ► And while you're there, you can just create an entry and it'll geotag where you are.

01:13:05 ◼   ► And you could go back at the end of the day and add in notes about what you did or thoughts

01:13:10 ◼   ► or what have you.

01:13:12 ◼   ► I really, really like day one.

01:13:13 ◼   ► If you have any interest in this whatsoever, I can't suggest it enough.

01:13:17 ◼   ► You should definitely try it out.

01:13:19 ◼   ► Marco, do you do any sort of journaling

01:13:21 ◼   ► in any way, shape, or form?

01:13:23 ◼   ► - No.

01:13:23 ◼   ► - Good talk.

01:13:25 ◼   ► - It's one of those things, it's like playing guitar.

01:13:29 ◼   ► I would love to be an expert in playing guitar,

01:13:32 ◼   ► but I am never willing to put in the effort

01:13:35 ◼   ► to go from nothing to expert.

01:13:37 ◼   ► - You and me both, brother, seriously.

01:13:39 ◼   ► I really agree with you, I really do.

01:13:41 ◼   ► - In this case, there are some times in which

01:13:44 ◼   ► I look back and say, boy, I would love to have journaled

01:13:47 ◼   ► for that time, but I never actually do it.

01:13:51 ◼   ► And I love the idea of it,

01:13:55 ◼   ► but I never want to do it so badly that I actually do it.

01:13:59 ◼   ► - Jon, I have a question about your journaling first.

01:14:01 ◼   ► Like, the whole idea of this question

01:14:04 ◼   ► of calling it journaling makes me think that

01:14:07 ◼   ► it's like a different framing of writing,

01:14:12 ◼   ► 'cause writing something every day,

01:14:13 ◼   ► or writing about your day or what happened in your life

01:14:15 ◼   ► can take lots of different forms.

01:14:17 ◼   ► And I feel like journaling comes with an expectation

01:14:20 ◼   ► of a sort of context, a frame of reference.

01:14:24 ◼   ► What I'm occurring to do is having a diary, right?

01:14:26 ◼   ► Which is a different way of saying the same thing.

01:14:28 ◼   ► I write something down every day.

01:14:29 ◼   ► All right, but if it's a diary, it's like,

01:14:31 ◼   ► dear diary, here are my deepest thoughts, right?

01:14:34 ◼   ► You know, my deepest feelings

01:14:35 ◼   ► that I would never want anyone to know,

01:14:37 ◼   ► and I'm writing them down, right?

01:14:38 ◼   ► Whereas journaling is more like,

01:14:41 ◼   ► I mean, you mentioned you're doing it someplace private,

01:14:42 ◼   ► but when I see journaling, I feel like it's,

01:14:45 ◼   ► I always think of it as like, how would you feel if this got into the wrong hands and

01:14:50 ◼   ► was published, right?

01:14:52 ◼   ► And I feel like a journal is written with the notion that it is slightly less bad than

01:14:57 ◼   ► having your diary go public.

01:14:59 ◼   ► Because your diary, it's like, this is it.

01:15:01 ◼   ► This is the base level.

01:15:02 ◼   ► There is nothing that I won't write here.

01:15:04 ◼   ► No matter how embarrassing, no matter like, I'm just going to write all my thoughts and

01:15:07 ◼   ► feelings and it's just for me.

01:15:09 ◼   ► And it's my deepest inner thoughts with no filter.

01:15:12 ◼   ► And journal is not that.

01:15:13 ◼   ► is I'm going to put my feelings and thoughts about the day here, but it's kind of like

01:15:18 ◼   ► something I think we're all familiar with. It's like writing not for an external audience,

01:15:23 ◼   ► but also thinking about if someone did see this, how dire would it be for me? And that may seem

01:15:29 ◼   ► like a weird thing to think about, but I have to tell you that a lot of the things I do in my life,

01:15:32 ◼   ► like in the internet age, I have that mindset of like, I never intend this to go elsewhere or be

01:15:40 ◼   ► seen outside of the context where you know where it's supposed to be but it could so let me make

01:15:46 ◼   ► sure if that happens it's not entirely awful like always sort of holding something back so my

01:15:52 ◼   ► question for casey is are your journal entries like diary entries or like a historian cataloging what

01:15:59 ◼   ► your family did in a day or somewhere in between like how how do you move along that spectrum

01:16:04 ◼   ► Um, it's a good question. I would say mine is more of a captain's log than it is a diary.

01:16:10 ◼   ► Like there are occasions that I will put, I mean, I can't even think of an example off the top of my

01:16:16 ◼   ► head. Like it's not that I'm trying to filter myself. I just, I can't even think of an example

01:16:19 ◼   ► of something that is really and truly private. Like I'll talk about, um, you know, oh, we had such

01:16:25 ◼   ► and such a medical issue that, that we needed to take care of. Like that'll get noted, but it,

01:16:30 ◼   ► that's not the end of the earth if that sort of thing escaped. You know, it's one of those things

01:16:34 ◼   ► where I wouldn't want my day one journal to be public,

01:16:36 ◼   ► but I don't think it would be ruinous if it was.

01:16:40 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

01:16:40 ◼   ► Like, I don't know that I would be canceled

01:16:43 ◼   ► on account of my day one journal.

01:16:44 ◼   ► I'm much more likely to get canceled

01:16:45 ◼   ► 'cause my dumb hot takes on this show

01:16:48 ◼   ► or Maston or Twitter or something like that.

01:16:49 ◼   ► - It's not about canceling.

01:16:50 ◼   ► It's not like we're saying you're planning a murder

01:16:52 ◼   ► and you're writing a journal.

01:16:53 ◼   ► - For sure, for sure.

01:16:53 ◼   ► No, no, I'm with you.

01:16:54 ◼   ► - But just like writing about your feelings.

01:16:56 ◼   ► Like, you know what I mean?

01:16:57 ◼   ► The journal, as you describe it,

01:16:59 ◼   ► could be useful in this context,

01:17:00 ◼   ► but I'm saying like something you would bring

01:17:01 ◼   ► to your therapist.

01:17:02 ◼   ► Like, you could bring to your therapist and say,

01:17:03 ◼   ► and say, "Oh, on this day, I did this,

01:17:04 ◼   ► and so it helps me understand, you know,

01:17:07 ◼   ► what my feelings might have been,"

01:17:08 ◼   ► versus literally writing down your feelings,

01:17:10 ◼   ► bringing that to your therapist, and said,

01:17:11 ◼   ► "Here's how I felt on this day,

01:17:13 ◼   ► and here's what I wrote about it," right?

01:17:14 ◼   ► So it's more, that's what I feel like is,

01:17:16 ◼   ► the word journaling implies like a one-step remove,

01:17:19 ◼   ► where you're sort of like, like you said, a captain's log,

01:17:22 ◼   ► which has a particular context, and, you know,

01:17:25 ◼   ► Picard writes stuff in his captain's log about his feelings,

01:17:28 ◼   ► but there's still, it's written,

01:17:30 ◼   ► a captain's log in particular is written

01:17:31 ◼   ► with the expectation that it will have an audience

01:17:33 ◼   ► people who want to look at the captain's log to see what happened on the events of the

01:17:36 ◼   ► journey. And it's not like the captain doesn't write about their feelings like I fear we'll

01:17:40 ◼   ► never find land or whatever, but he's not writing about his, you know, secret love of

01:17:44 ◼   ► the first mate or whatever.

01:17:46 ◼   ► Yeah, no, my, my thoughts about how much I love the two of you, I keep just for me. No,

01:17:53 ◼   ► I mean, all kidding aside, it really is more along the lines of a captain's log. And I

01:17:58 ◼   ► think to back up a step, what day one does for me is fix a problem that I have. And I don't mean that

01:18:06 ◼   ► in a sarcastic way or to be flippant. I genuinely have a terrible memory. And I'm not proud of that.

01:18:13 ◼   ► I wish I had a much better memory, but my memory is garbage. And I can remember certain things.

01:18:19 ◼   ► And I can remember broad strokes of Declan's fifth birthday trip to Disney World in late 2019.

01:18:24 ◼   ► But I really enjoy, if I have the time and the presence of mind to do it, I really enjoy

01:18:31 ◼   ► taking note of this is where we had lunch on the first day that we were at Disney.

01:18:35 ◼   ► This is where we eat dinner.

01:18:37 ◼   ► And even to the degree of this is what I ate, maybe I liked it, maybe I didn't.

01:18:40 ◼   ► But I'm not going to go into how it made me emotionally feel that dinner or anything like

01:18:45 ◼   ► that.

01:18:46 ◼   ► It's really solving the problem of I have no memory.

01:18:49 ◼   ► This is my external outboard memory that helps me to relive events in my life.

01:18:56 ◼   ► Usually good ones, sometimes mundane, but just events in my life.

01:18:59 ◼   ► And day one is really good for me for capturing that.

01:19:02 ◼   ► Now you can write long form stuff in it for sure.

01:19:05 ◼   ► That's not a need that I typically have, and it's not something that I do particularly

01:19:09 ◼   ► often at all, but you could do that there if you so desire.

01:19:14 ◼   ► But yeah, if I were to summarize, I would say more captain's log than anything else.

01:19:18 ◼   ► My typical day one entry is a title,

01:19:21 ◼   ► often but not always a picture,

01:19:22 ◼   ► and typically one paragraph or less, if any.

01:19:25 ◼   ► Sometimes it's just the title and the picture,

01:19:27 ◼   ► nothing else.

01:19:28 ◼   ► - Yeah, and to answer my question,

01:19:29 ◼   ► I don't do any journaling,

01:19:31 ◼   ► although my wife has day one installed

01:19:33 ◼   ► and I hate it because it takes Command + Shift + D.

01:19:35 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:19:36 ◼   ► When I'm in the Finder, I hit Command + Shift + D

01:19:38 ◼   ► to open the desktop folder,

01:19:39 ◼   ► so I can sort by stuff or whatever,

01:19:41 ◼   ► so I don't have to look through her incredibly messy

01:19:42 ◼   ► desktop full of icons everywhere,

01:19:44 ◼   ► and I can just get a list view and find things

01:19:46 ◼   ► sorted by date or whatever.

01:19:47 ◼   ► - And Command + Shift + D does not open a stupid finder window

01:19:51 ◼   ► of the desktop, instead it opens day one.

01:19:53 ◼   ► - I have day one installed, and Command + Shift + D

01:19:55 ◼   ► definitely does the desktop.

01:19:56 ◼   ► - I think I'm thinking of day one.

01:19:57 ◼   ► It's like a teal icon, teal thing.

01:20:00 ◼   ► - It's like a light blue, yeah.

01:20:02 ◼   ► - Maybe they changed that.

01:20:03 ◼   ► - Looks like a book.

01:20:04 ◼   ► But also today I learned that Command + Shift + D

01:20:06 ◼   ► brings you to the desktop, so that's extremely useful.

01:20:08 ◼   ► Thanks, John.

01:20:09 ◼   ► - It's in the Go menu, it's not a secret command.

01:20:10 ◼   ► - I just never paid attention.

01:20:11 ◼   ► - You know, Command + D in a save dialog also does that.

01:20:14 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:20:16 ◼   ► - Fine, fine, fine.

01:20:17 ◼   ► Matt Tuohy writes, "What folders do you add

01:20:18 ◼   ► "to the top level of your home directory?

01:20:20 ◼   ► "For example, I have one for my code,

01:20:22 ◼   ► "another for things that might be falling

01:20:23 ◼   ► "off the back of a truck.

01:20:24 ◼   ► "Does this feel like a sacred place in your computer,

01:20:26 ◼   ► "saved only for special cases?

01:20:28 ◼   ► "P.S., I just installed Postman,

01:20:30 ◼   ► "and it created, you know, tilde slash Postman, yuck.

01:20:33 ◼   ► "I went first last time, so I'll save myself for last."

01:20:37 ◼   ► I think Marco, let's start with you, please.

01:20:39 ◼   ► - I generally don't add stuff to my home folder directly.

01:20:43 ◼   ► And it has a similar problem as the Dropbox folder,

01:20:48 ◼   ► in the sense that many apps will add their own top-level

01:20:54 ◼   ► folders there that I don't necessarily want there

01:20:57 ◼   ► and don't need to deal with myself

01:20:58 ◼   ► and don't want to deal with myself,

01:21:00 ◼   ► but they need to put their data there

01:21:01 ◼   ► because they're hard-coded to do it or whatever.

01:21:03 ◼   ► And so it ends up making the home folder not particularly

01:21:07 ◼   ► useful to me as a place that I want to look very often,

01:21:09 ◼   ► because it's cluttered up with items

01:21:12 ◼   ► that I don't need to be there,

01:21:13 ◼   ► that some app or the system decide need to be there.

01:21:17 ◼   ► So I don't look that often.

01:21:19 ◼   ► What I do have there, you know, of course,

01:21:21 ◼   ► you know, I'll use the subfolders,

01:21:22 ◼   ► like documents and photos and things like that.

01:21:25 ◼   ► But I do have in that top level folder

01:21:28 ◼   ► all of my Git checkouts.

01:21:31 ◼   ► So it's basically a list of projects.

01:21:33 ◼   ► You know, it's like overcast.

01:21:35 ◼   ► - In your home folder?

01:21:36 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:21:37 ◼   ► - Wow.

01:21:38 ◼   ► - Home/overcast, you know, home/neutral.

01:21:42 ◼   ► - I find that to be madness as well, but you do you.

01:21:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, well, hey, that's, (laughs)

01:21:46 ◼   ► it makes all my paths really easy to type,

01:21:48 ◼   ► you know, tilde slash whatever.

01:21:50 ◼   ► So that's what I do.

01:21:52 ◼   ► So it's full of checkouts of all my projects

01:21:56 ◼   ► and, you know, a handful of folders

01:21:58 ◼   ► that I never need to look at.

01:21:59 ◼   ► And then of course my fake Dropbox folder,

01:22:02 ◼   ► which is actually the Maestro Dropbox folder,

01:22:06 ◼   ► but, you know, for path compatibility,

01:22:07 ◼   ► it's still called Dropbox.

01:22:09 ◼   ► - Jon?

01:22:11 ◼   ► I don't put things in the top level of my home folder.

01:22:14 ◼   ► Other apps do, and I find it incredibly rude.

01:22:17 ◼   ► - Yes.

01:22:18 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:22:19 ◼   ► - So Creative Cloud Files.

01:22:20 ◼   ► I don't like you.

01:22:21 ◼   ► I don't want you to be there.

01:22:23 ◼   ► Why are you in the top level of my home directory?

01:22:25 ◼   ► Dropbox does, and I have to say,

01:22:27 ◼   ► Dropbox is one of the only ones that if I had a choice,

01:22:29 ◼   ► and you do have a choice, I think,

01:22:31 ◼   ► I'm okay with that being top level because of what it is,

01:22:35 ◼   ► but I always want to have a choice.

01:22:37 ◼   ► There are other apps that try to put things in there.

01:22:39 ◼   ► Sometimes if they insist on being there,

01:22:41 ◼   ► I make them invisible just so I don't have to see them

01:22:43 ◼   ► in the finder.

01:22:44 ◼   ► I tend not to go to that folder,

01:22:45 ◼   ► but if you think about that folder,

01:22:46 ◼   ► there's a good history to be had here

01:22:48 ◼   ► going all the way back to the next days

01:22:49 ◼   ► of like someone somewhere back in the day

01:22:53 ◼   ► decided they were going to pick a reasonable top-level

01:22:57 ◼   ► arrangement for people's home directories.

01:22:59 ◼   ► And so they decided you're gonna,

01:23:01 ◼   ► you know, the folders that you see there

01:23:03 ◼   ► when you get a Mac, documents, movies, pictures,

01:23:06 ◼   ► not photos, pictures,

01:23:07 ◼   ► because some of them might not be photos, right?

01:23:09 ◼   ► Then there's the dreaded library folder,

01:23:11 ◼   ► which people don't understand,

01:23:12 ◼   ► and it's got the little pillars on the icon or whatever.

01:23:14 ◼   ► We as developers know what's in there,

01:23:16 ◼   ► but it's computer stuff, right?

01:23:20 ◼   ► Downloads, kind of makes sense as a top-level thing.

01:23:23 ◼   ► Public, nobody freaking knows what that is

01:23:25 ◼   ► because the web browser that used to ship with Macs,

01:23:27 ◼   ► like it used to have a GUI and then it didn't have a GUI.

01:23:29 ◼   ► It's still, you know, Apache I think still comes

01:23:31 ◼   ► with Mac OS, but anyway.

01:23:32 ◼   ► If you run a web server on your Mac

01:23:34 ◼   ► out of people's home directory stuff, it comes out of public,

01:23:36 ◼   ► but it's also I think the file sharing

01:23:37 ◼   ► public directory or whatever.

01:23:39 ◼   ► And don't forget, inside of public is a folder called

01:23:41 ◼   ► Drop Space Box, which is different from Dropbox.

01:23:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's right.

01:23:45 ◼   ► Now, sites is the web browser one,

01:23:46 ◼   ► public is like the public file sharing one,

01:23:48 ◼   ► and then a top level folder for music,

01:23:50 ◼   ► not audio, but music.

01:23:52 ◼   ► So you've got movies, not video, pictures, not photos,

01:23:56 ◼   ► music, not audio.

01:23:57 ◼   ► It's such a model, and of course applications.

01:24:01 ◼   ► I do have a applications folder in my home directory,

01:24:03 ◼   ► and that is a supported thing,

01:24:04 ◼   ► and the OS will give it an icon,

01:24:05 ◼   ► and I do have applications in there.

01:24:07 ◼   ► There are applications that only I want to use,

01:24:09 ◼   ► that I know no one else in the system wants to use.

01:24:11 ◼   ► It's sort of like a, like you don't graduate

01:24:13 ◼   ► to slash applications until you reach

01:24:15 ◼   ► a certain level of usefulness.

01:24:16 ◼   ► So I've got a lot of crap until the slash applications.

01:24:20 ◼   ► There are other folders that you can put in there

01:24:22 ◼   ► that the OS understands,

01:24:23 ◼   ► but this sort of arrangement of stuff,

01:24:26 ◼   ► chosen a really long time ago, it makes some sense.

01:24:28 ◼   ► It's not a ridiculous arrangement of things,

01:24:31 ◼   ► but Apple in typical fashion on Mac OS