The Talk Show

00:00:00 ◼   ► Okay, shut up!

00:00:02 ◼   ► [laughter]

00:00:04 ◼   ► An elegant start to the evening.

00:00:06 ◼   ► Welcome to the first live episode of the talk show.

00:00:10 ◼   ► [cheering]

00:00:12 ◼   ► This is exciting. Thank you for having me.

00:00:14 ◼   ► We are here at 1.11 minute in the Zappa room.

00:00:20 ◼   ► Pretty cool, very nice.

00:00:22 ◼   ► And joining me for the show up here on stage is Cable Sasser.

00:00:28 ◼   ► Hello. Thank you for cheering and not booing.

00:00:32 ◼   ► So I was just saying to Cable a couple minutes ago, funny enough, I've done three live podcasts

00:00:38 ◼   ► in my life and all three have been with Cable's faster.

00:00:42 ◼   ► I don't know how to say that.

00:00:43 ◼   ► And I didn't realize that until after I'd invited him to do this show and then I was

00:00:48 ◼   ► like looking back and it was a couple years ago we did a thing at Macworld Expo where

00:00:53 ◼   ► we were in like a booth.

00:00:55 ◼   ► It's almost hard to call it a live episode.

00:00:57 ◼   ► How would you describe that?

00:00:58 ◼   ► - I know, it was very strange.

00:01:00 ◼   ► I just remember being in the booth

00:01:01 ◼   ► with the plastic window next door

00:01:03 ◼   ► and just so many people walking by

00:01:04 ◼   ► and me being so distracted,

00:01:06 ◼   ► wanting to look at everybody walking by.

00:01:08 ◼   ► And people sort of waving and knocking on the glass.

00:01:12 ◼   ► - And the gist of it was it was supposed to be soundproof

00:01:14 ◼   ► 'cause the show floor at Expo

00:01:17 ◼   ► is really, really acoustically horrendous.

00:01:20 ◼   ► So they put us in this plastic fishbowl

00:01:22 ◼   ► and it did sound better, the audio came out good.

00:01:25 ◼   ► And the idea though was that they were gonna pipe it live

00:01:28 ◼   ► to the other side and that people could be there,

00:01:32 ◼   ► but nobody could get that close to us

00:01:33 ◼   ► and there was nobody there.

00:01:35 ◼   ► And all we did, it was me and Cable

00:01:37 ◼   ► and your co-founder Steven Frank talking,

00:01:40 ◼   ► and people would walk by

00:01:41 ◼   ► and right when they'd walk by the speaker,

00:01:42 ◼   ► they'd pause for a second, look around,

00:01:45 ◼   ► see us in the fishbowl,

00:01:47 ◼   ► and then get creeped out and walk away.

00:01:49 ◼   ► - That's absolutely true.

00:01:50 ◼   ► That conversation is notable

00:01:51 ◼   ► because that's when we brought up

00:01:54 ◼   ► the concept of claim chowder.

00:01:55 ◼   ► That's where we told you we've been joking about this

00:01:57 ◼   ► in the office, like trying to come up with a term

00:01:59 ◼   ► for these situations where people make these

00:02:01 ◼   ► outrageous claims that you know are gonna be false,

00:02:03 ◼   ► but they still dedicate themselves to it.

00:02:05 ◼   ► Steve came up with this term, claim chowder,

00:02:08 ◼   ► and I remember you laughing for maybe about six minutes

00:02:10 ◼   ► straight when you heard that.

00:02:12 ◼   ► And the rest is history.

00:02:14 ◼   ► - You guys still have the domain, right?

00:02:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, I do have claimchowder.com.

00:02:17 ◼   ► If anybody wants it or needs to do anything with it,

00:02:19 ◼   ► let me know. - Claimchowder.com is--

00:02:20 ◼   ► And then John sends us a check every month,

00:02:22 ◼   ► which is totally awesome.

00:02:24 ◼   ► That's pretty much what's keeping the company afloat

00:02:26 ◼   ► right now though, so I don't wanna push my luck.

00:02:29 ◼   ► You know, I have a confession to make,

00:02:31 ◼   ► I've never actually listened to the talk show.

00:02:33 ◼   ► But, but, that didn't stop me from rating it one star

00:02:37 ◼   ► on iTunes, so.

00:02:39 ◼   ► Just want you to know, I'm doing my part, I'm doing my part.

00:02:43 ◼   ► - Well, we have a good crowd here, we have a very good crowd.

00:02:45 ◼   ► I suspect that most of the people here

00:02:47 ◼   ► are the two-star review people.

00:02:50 ◼   ► Two to three. Yeah, I think we have a lot of two and three star Raiders here, which is very nice.

00:02:55 ◼   ► I don't think the one star people showed up, but

00:02:57 ◼   ► But then the other time we did a live show was Jason Snell who's here

00:03:02 ◼   ► editorial director of Macworld back in 2007

00:03:06 ◼   ► He invited me to do a live daring fireball

00:03:09 ◼   ► We called it on the show floor and this time it was much more like this

00:03:13 ◼   ► there was a little stage or kiosk or Dios or something and yeah a real crowd of people who were there and

00:03:20 ◼   ► and I had you, and I agreed to it in advance.

00:03:24 ◼   ► Ended up, it was the day that the original iPhone

00:03:28 ◼   ► was introduced. - That was a pretty intense day.

00:03:30 ◼   ► - So it was like five hours after the keynote,

00:03:33 ◼   ► and I listened to it on the plane ride out

00:03:34 ◼   ► just to make sure I don't ask you the same questions again.

00:03:37 ◼   ► And I was really blown away by what we talked about,

00:03:41 ◼   ► like how it was either prescient,

00:03:43 ◼   ► like we really foresaw it. - I was just about to ask,

00:03:45 ◼   ► like how close were we? - We were really good.

00:03:49 ◼   ► I would say the one thing you were a little bit wrong about is that…

00:03:51 ◼   ► Great, thanks. I'm happy to… I haven't listened to it yet.

00:03:55 ◼   ► The phrase I jotted down from what you said is you said, well there's a question about

00:03:59 ◼   ► the whole…

00:04:00 ◼   ► This iPhone thing is going to be a flop.

00:04:02 ◼   ► No, no.

00:04:03 ◼   ► All right.

00:04:04 ◼   ► No, and there was a show of hands. We did a thing… because there was another product

00:04:09 ◼   ► that got introduced the same day, and I didn't even remember this. Same day that the original

00:04:14 ◼   ► iPhone was introduced, Apple TV was introduced.

00:04:17 ◼   ► This is the old spinning hard disk Apple TV.

00:04:20 ◼   ► - Hey, that's, why would they announce both on the same day?

00:04:24 ◼   ► - And the crowd was obviously very smart,

00:04:26 ◼   ► or at least representative of the market at large.

00:04:30 ◼   ► 'Cause you asked, you said, okay, show of hands,

00:04:33 ◼   ► how many people here think they're gonna buy an iPhone?

00:04:35 ◼   ► And everybody's hand went up.

00:04:36 ◼   ► And we had to like interrupt and like explain

00:04:39 ◼   ► to all the listeners who were listening to the podcast,

00:04:41 ◼   ► okay, everybody's hand just went up.

00:04:42 ◼   ► - It was literally everybody's hand.

00:04:44 ◼   ► Yeah, and then later on, like, you know, 20 minutes later,

00:04:47 ◼   ► we're talking about the new Apple TV,

00:04:49 ◼   ► and you said, all right, hey, hey,

00:04:51 ◼   ► who's gonna buy an Apple TV?

00:04:52 ◼   ► And it was like one guy.

00:04:53 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:04:55 ◼   ► - And that's why it's a hobby.

00:04:56 ◼   ► - Right. - Yeah.

00:04:57 ◼   ► Interesting.

00:04:59 ◼   ► - You said, you called it, there's a question about the,

00:05:03 ◼   ► quote, the whole third-party developer thing.

00:05:06 ◼   ► - Oh.

00:05:07 ◼   ► - Because it was a real mystery at that point.

00:05:08 ◼   ► - That's totally true.

00:05:10 ◼   ► - Like, we know in hindsight

00:05:11 ◼   ► that the whole first year of the iPhone,

00:05:12 ◼   ► there were no third-party apps.

00:05:13 ◼   ► there was no app store, but on that first day,

00:05:15 ◼   ► we actually didn't even know that.

00:05:18 ◼   ► - They didn't do the sweet solution at that point.

00:05:20 ◼   ► - No, that was WWDC.

00:05:22 ◼   ► - Sweet solution.

00:05:23 ◼   ► - Right, that was five--

00:05:24 ◼   ► - I just did air quotes if you're listening at home.

00:05:26 ◼   ► - That was six months later at WWDC,

00:05:28 ◼   ► so that first day, Apple never tells you

00:05:31 ◼   ► what's not included.

00:05:32 ◼   ► - Right, that's totally true.

00:05:34 ◼   ► - And there was no answer on it,

00:05:36 ◼   ► I mean, and it was presumably there's no apps

00:05:38 ◼   ► 'cause they didn't say anything, but--

00:05:40 ◼   ► - It really made sense at the time

00:05:42 ◼   ► that there was everybody sort of,

00:05:44 ◼   ► the word that was passed along among attendees

00:05:46 ◼   ► was this was Steve's precious, incredible device

00:05:51 ◼   ► and he did not want anything else on that phone, right?

00:05:53 ◼   ► It was just gonna be what Apple puts on there.

00:05:56 ◼   ► And I kinda, it made logical sense at the time.

00:05:58 ◼   ► I'm like, oh, well that kinda sucks for us,

00:06:01 ◼   ► but so it goes.

00:06:02 ◼   ► - But the one thing you said is that if we do get the chance

00:06:05 ◼   ► to write apps for this thing,

00:06:07 ◼   ► you were like, I'm gonna be all over it.

00:06:08 ◼   ► And that kind of didn't work out that way.

00:06:10 ◼   ► - And that's an interesting point

00:06:11 ◼   ► Because it was, things we had, at that point,

00:06:15 ◼   ► so we made consumer-y stuff, we made like Audion,

00:06:19 ◼   ► which was this early MP3 player,

00:06:21 ◼   ► and stuff more tuned to the average market,

00:06:24 ◼   ► and we wanted to make a photo thing,

00:06:26 ◼   ► but that was right before iPhoto came out.

00:06:28 ◼   ► And so we kind of had this string of things happen

00:06:29 ◼   ► where like Apple is going in this consumer direction.

00:06:32 ◼   ► If we do that, we're just gonna get steamrolled

00:06:34 ◼   ► every single time.

00:06:35 ◼   ► And so I think we made this subconscious switch to,

00:06:37 ◼   ► we have to be more professional,

00:06:39 ◼   ► We have to shoot for bigger, more complicated apps

00:06:41 ◼   ► for pro users or else we're just going

00:06:44 ◼   ► to keep getting steamrolled.

00:06:45 ◼   ► And then the iPhone really threw us for curve, right?

00:06:47 ◼   ► Because we were in this mode, and then the iPhone

00:06:49 ◼   ► became the most consumer grade thing imaginable, right?

00:06:52 ◼   ► Like with the Angry Birds and the farting apps

00:06:55 ◼   ► and all this stuff.

00:06:56 ◼   ► It was like it totally went in a direction that we were not

00:07:00 ◼   ► tuned to at that time.

00:07:01 ◼   ► So it was really interesting.

00:07:02 ◼   ► So then, looking at it now in the context of the iPad

00:07:05 ◼   ► and Diet Coda, which is our iPad version of our web editor,

00:07:08 ◼   ► that's like our pro thing for the iPad,

00:07:11 ◼   ► we still yet to really crack, like go back to consumer,

00:07:15 ◼   ► really user-friendly consumer software.

00:07:18 ◼   ► And I'd like us to go back in that direction

00:07:20 ◼   ► if at all possible, we're just trying

00:07:21 ◼   ► to find the right things first, but I digress.

00:07:23 ◼   ► - All right, more on that later.

00:07:25 ◼   ► But the other thing that I thought both of us together,

00:07:29 ◼   ► we sort of like just talked our way into the idea

00:07:32 ◼   ► during the show of isn't everybody going to immediately

00:07:37 ◼   ► start clamoring for this interface and this OS on something more of like a tablet size.

00:07:44 ◼   ► Turns out. Yeah. And it really is just a big iPhone, let's be honest. It really does come

00:07:52 ◼   ► across those two guys who like recorded this podcast today and they're claiming it was

00:07:56 ◼   ► in 2007 on the day the iPhone was introduced. That's good. Right? The other thing we talked

00:08:00 ◼   ► about that day is our mutual long-standing obsession

00:08:05 ◼   ► with what was then called high DPI,

00:08:08 ◼   ► now called Retina Display Mac software.

00:08:10 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:08:11 ◼   ► - Because, and that's been a topic at WWDC,

00:08:13 ◼   ► like long-term WWDC attendees will recall from,

00:08:16 ◼   ► I mean, easily six, seven years ago.

00:08:19 ◼   ► - I remember 2007, I think we got an Apple design award

00:08:23 ◼   ► for Coda One, and I remember them saying on stage,

00:08:25 ◼   ► and it's even got high DPI assets or whatever,

00:08:29 ◼   ► and everyone kind of laughed a little bit

00:08:31 ◼   ► 'cause it was so far from reality.

00:08:33 ◼   ► - And I don't know, maybe 2006, 2005,

00:08:36 ◼   ► one of those years, it was sort of like

00:08:38 ◼   ► one of the main themes WWDC long was get your apps

00:08:42 ◼   ► high DPI ready, get your app.

00:08:44 ◼   ► And we were so excited, and this is January 2007,

00:08:47 ◼   ► we thought, me and you thought,

00:08:49 ◼   ► that Retina Display Max were like around the corner.

00:08:52 ◼   ► - Oh yeah. - We were ready.

00:08:53 ◼   ► - I've been thinking that for a very long time now, yeah.

00:08:56 ◼   ► - And now we can say we're right.

00:08:58 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:08:59 ◼   ► - Finally, we are totally right.

00:09:01 ◼   ► So you saw it, you looked at it.

00:09:03 ◼   ► - I have one, I have a review unit from Apple,

00:09:05 ◼   ► so I have it, and it's great.

00:09:08 ◼   ► I guess I should do like an off the cuff,

00:09:10 ◼   ► quick review, like first impression thing.

00:09:13 ◼   ► - I would love to hear that.

00:09:14 ◼   ► - So one thing I didn't know before I started using it

00:09:20 ◼   ► is the highest DPI is on the phone's retina display,

00:09:24 ◼   ► that's like 330 something,

00:09:26 ◼   ► And then iPad's pixels per inch is 266 or 267,

00:09:31 ◼   ► something like that.

00:09:34 ◼   ► And now this one's at 220.

00:09:35 ◼   ► So it's the lowest pixels per inch.

00:09:38 ◼   ► But it's also the one you naturally use

00:09:40 ◼   ► the furthest distance from your eyes.

00:09:43 ◼   ► And my impression is easily that it's the sharpest.

00:09:45 ◼   ► Like while using it,

00:09:46 ◼   ► it's the one that seems the crazy sharpest.

00:09:49 ◼   ► And it really feels like I'm using a fake version

00:09:54 ◼   ► of Mac OS X.

00:09:55 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:09:56 ◼   ► - Yep, that's how Retina things have always felt, right?

00:09:59 ◼   ► You just have to peel off the little sticker

00:10:01 ◼   ► on the device first and yeah.

00:10:02 ◼   ► - Like somebody made, and I know that they've done this

00:10:05 ◼   ► for demos and for keynotes, where if they wanna show

00:10:09 ◼   ► a zoomed in part of the interface projected really big.

00:10:13 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I remember I actually used to collect

00:10:16 ◼   ► these Apple PR images that would have these 2X

00:10:19 ◼   ► or 3X mockups, they would be for giant banners

00:10:22 ◼   ► in the Apple Store, you know, various places.

00:10:24 ◼   ► And it was always interesting to see how they would

00:10:26 ◼   ► retinize these assets long before they did.

00:10:29 ◼   ► - Another example of it is when they've done print ads

00:10:32 ◼   ► over the year that show the interface

00:10:35 ◼   ► at greater than real size.

00:10:38 ◼   ► They redo everything so that the graphics

00:10:41 ◼   ► are the quality of the printing,

00:10:43 ◼   ► not, you know, you don't see jaggies.

00:10:46 ◼   ► And that's what it looks like

00:10:47 ◼   ► while you're just using the computer.

00:10:48 ◼   ► It looks like you're using the fake version

00:10:51 ◼   ► they mocked up in Illustrator.

00:10:53 ◼   ► - I really need one of these laptops.

00:10:55 ◼   ► glossy display. And I mean obviously it's Apple they're gonna say it's the

00:11:03 ◼   ► greatest thing ever but they it really does it's it's just a better looking

00:11:07 ◼   ► display than the phones or the iPads I mean it just has better color it it's

00:11:11 ◼   ► it's just sort of mind-blowing. I was reading some Gizmodo comments and those

00:11:15 ◼   ► guys didn't seem too excited about it at all. So I don't know I think I side with those

00:11:19 ◼   ► guys is really just a joke. Everything's a joke. The other thing I think everybody here

00:11:27 ◼   ► has got to be in agreement with the whole every time you go from a pre retina device

00:11:31 ◼   ► to the retina device the thing that juts out is the apps that haven't been updated to support

00:11:37 ◼   ► the retina. And I also think that the progression is that they look far worse on this device

00:11:47 ◼   ► than they did on the iPad, which made them look worse

00:11:51 ◼   ► than on the iPhone.

00:11:51 ◼   ► Like on the iPhone, I always thought it was kind of tolerable

00:11:54 ◼   ► using the non-retina apps until everything got retinized.

00:11:56 ◼   ► But on the Mac, it really, really sticks out.

00:11:59 ◼   ► - That's gonna be interesting.

00:12:01 ◼   ► - It looks like you could hurt yourself

00:12:03 ◼   ► by touching the jaggies of the pixels.

00:12:06 ◼   ► - Right, and in your experience using this laptop,

00:12:09 ◼   ► I mean, are you seeing this a lot?

00:12:10 ◼   ► Are a lot of things not looking great?

00:12:12 ◼   ► I mean-- - I will say this.

00:12:14 ◼   ► Well, we'll get back to it, but I,

00:12:16 ◼   ► Well, we'll talk about Coda later, but Coda,

00:12:18 ◼   ► I did launch Coda, anticipating it.

00:12:21 ◼   ► And you, so you haven't seen Coda

00:12:23 ◼   ► running on a Retina display yet.

00:12:24 ◼   ► Coda, so far as I could tell,

00:12:26 ◼   ► in about two minutes of poking around,

00:12:27 ◼   ► everything looks Retina.

00:12:29 ◼   ► Like it worked, whatever you did to anticipate it.

00:12:31 ◼   ► - It took so much work.

00:12:33 ◼   ► - Right.

00:12:34 ◼   ► - There are all sorts of, thank you, thank you.

00:12:37 ◼   ► It's all the guys in the office, it's all.

00:12:40 ◼   ► I just drew some things, but yeah,

00:12:42 ◼   ► when we were developing Coda, I mean, not to jump ahead,

00:12:44 ◼   ► But yeah, it was at some point towards the end,

00:12:47 ◼   ► things were kind of slowing down a little bit.

00:12:49 ◼   ► And we were just like, let's take a crack at this.

00:12:52 ◼   ► Because the OS obviously was headed in that direction

00:12:55 ◼   ► rapidly.

00:12:56 ◼   ► It was no longer just a weird developer option

00:12:58 ◼   ► that you had to install Xcode.

00:13:00 ◼   ► Well, you still kind of had to install Xcode.

00:13:01 ◼   ► But anyways, it was more easily accessible.

00:13:03 ◼   ► So yeah, it was an interesting process.

00:13:05 ◼   ► Because there's the art side of it.

00:13:07 ◼   ► We had to redo a bunch of assets, which

00:13:10 ◼   ► is just a process.

00:13:11 ◼   ► But then there's all sorts of stuff that's drawn in code that

00:13:13 ◼   ► it was just crazy, you know?

00:13:15 ◼   ► Progress bars that just look crazy and things that,

00:13:17 ◼   ► but my favorite thing about it,

00:13:18 ◼   ► and I'm jumping ahead again, but that's okay,

00:13:20 ◼   ► is that we did these crazy tab thumbnails.

00:13:23 ◼   ► You've talked about them in Coda.

00:13:24 ◼   ► We sort of visualized your tabs.

00:13:26 ◼   ► And I was a little bit nervous about that idea

00:13:29 ◼   ► 'cause it's just so different,

00:13:30 ◼   ► but if it's a text document,

00:13:32 ◼   ► we'll show the actual text of the document.

00:13:35 ◼   ► And the first time we ran it in retina

00:13:36 ◼   ► and realized that you can actually read the text

00:13:40 ◼   ► in the thumbnails, and I was like,

00:13:41 ◼   ► "Wow, of course, we knew that all along. We were shooting for Retina with this feature."

00:13:46 ◼   ► And just nervously, like, "Whew!"

00:13:49 ◼   ► But yeah, that part really excited me. Because I'm like, "This is where it's valuable, right?

00:13:54 ◼   ► This is where the detail really shines."

00:13:57 ◼   ► Right. So the other thing that occurs to me is, because I used to do, back when I did design work,

00:14:02 ◼   ► I did a lot of print design. And I was on the school newspaper.

00:14:06 ◼   ► And, like doing a school newspaper in the 90s with monitors that I guess were, the OS

00:14:14 ◼   ► treated everything as 72 pixels print, but it was getting a little higher than that,

00:14:18 ◼   ► but not much. I don't think, I think it was probably in the, like the best display was

00:14:22 ◼   ► probably like in the 80s or maybe 90 pixels print.

00:14:24 ◼   ► Were you using Print Shop for this or something?

00:14:26 ◼   ► No.

00:14:27 ◼   ► Something more elaborate?

00:14:28 ◼   ► No, QuarkXPress.

00:14:29 ◼   ► Right, okay.

00:14:30 ◼   ► But when you would design stuff, like when you were designing a newspaper on a display

00:14:36 ◼   ► that had at best 90 pixels per inch, it was a very crude representation. It was very clear

00:14:43 ◼   ► that the real thing we were making was this 600 DPI output that was gonna come out of

00:14:49 ◼   ► the big laser printer and that was the real thing. And in the meantime though, we had

00:14:53 ◼   ► this wonderful software that let you use this very, very crude representation of it, you

00:14:57 ◼   ► where no font looked like the font on screen.

00:15:01 ◼   ► - And when things get small enough,

00:15:02 ◼   ► you just get that little checkerboard-y pattern, right?

00:15:05 ◼   ► - Right, and we didn't even have anti-aliasing

00:15:07 ◼   ► for fonts at the time.

00:15:08 ◼   ► - Oh, wow, right.

00:15:09 ◼   ► - So it was all just like,

00:15:12 ◼   ► this is what we think it's gonna look like,

00:15:13 ◼   ► but then you'd have to print it out

00:15:14 ◼   ► and look at it to see what the real thing is.

00:15:17 ◼   ► And that is absolutely what Retina does to this.

00:15:21 ◼   ► It's like, all of a sudden, it feels like

00:15:23 ◼   ► after 20-some years of using a Macintosh

00:15:25 ◼   ► that I finally have a real Macintosh.

00:15:27 ◼   ► awesome that's right that is awesome like the fonts look right where do I get

00:15:33 ◼   ► what right so are you are you a 15 inch power book man or a macbook pro man

00:15:38 ◼   ► total macbook air yeah 13-inch macbook air and I love the macbook air so much

00:15:43 ◼   ► and so I'm a little bit nervous about in my mind going backwards like I really

00:15:47 ◼   ► like the you know the tapered shape and I don't know if I can go back to like

00:15:53 ◼   ► the weight kind of makes me nervous and the shape makes me nervous but at the

00:15:56 ◼   ► but at the same time, it's like I've obviously been waiting

00:15:58 ◼   ► so many years for a retina screen, so whatever.

00:16:01 ◼   ► - Right, I don't know what to do,

00:16:02 ◼   ► because I'm like a big desktop on my desk guy

00:16:06 ◼   ► with an 11-inch air that I carry around guy,

00:16:08 ◼   ► and a 15-inch, which is what I used to use

00:16:10 ◼   ► for years and years and years.

00:16:11 ◼   ► Like what I really wish is that I'd never given that up,

00:16:14 ◼   ► and that I'd still just stuck with using

00:16:15 ◼   ► a 15-inch everywhere.

00:16:16 ◼   ► - You'd be like, "This is great!"

00:16:18 ◼   ► - Because then this new one would feel so light

00:16:21 ◼   ► and so sharp, whereas it still feels like a brick to me,

00:16:24 ◼   ► because it's so much heavier than the 11-inch MacBook Pro.

00:16:26 ◼   ► back from the air. So how long until the air's have retina screens? I don't know.

00:16:31 ◼   ► Does anybody here work for Apple? No. Presumably a long time though. I feel like that's why they refreshed,

00:16:38 ◼   ► because it wasn't just a minor refresh to the 11 inch and 13 inch MacBook

00:16:42 ◼   ► Airs yesterday. It was like a major new chipset, all new RAM. I mean I think

00:16:47 ◼   ► that's sort of a message that you can buy an air today and I'm guessing it'd

00:16:53 ◼   ► be at least a year? I don't know.

00:16:54 ◼   ► - Yeah, I would think so.

00:16:55 ◼   ► - Alright?

00:16:56 ◼   ► - And everything else, I mean everything's,

00:16:57 ◼   ► it's inevitable that it's all gonna go that way, right?

00:16:59 ◼   ► - Right, oh.

00:17:00 ◼   ► - The whole line will go that way.

00:17:01 ◼   ► The cinema displays and the, you know, yeah.

00:17:04 ◼   ► - Right, it's, I don't know how long it's gonna take,

00:17:06 ◼   ► but sooner rather than later,

00:17:07 ◼   ► every single Mac will have this display

00:17:09 ◼   ► and you won't be able to buy one without it.

00:17:11 ◼   ► - Were you surprised when they said that Adobe

00:17:13 ◼   ► was gonna retinize Photoshop?

00:17:15 ◼   ► I don't know why I laughed when I said that, I'm sorry.

00:17:18 ◼   ► I tried to play it totally straight and I totally failed.

00:17:21 ◼   ► I don't know, it just seems like that kind of stuff

00:17:24 ◼   ► is sometimes challenging for them, but maybe.

00:17:26 ◼   ► (audience laughing)

00:17:28 ◼   ► I'm trying to be so, okay.

00:17:30 ◼   ► What do you think, Jon?

00:17:31 ◼   ► - You know what?

00:17:33 ◼   ► It was interesting, and there were very few

00:17:36 ◼   ► third-party shout-outs in the whole keynote.

00:17:39 ◼   ► - That was interesting. - So that one really started,

00:17:40 ◼   ► there were no third-party demos.

00:17:42 ◼   ► And it was, I guess the message is that if anybody

00:17:48 ◼   ► cares about every goddamn pixel, it's Photoshop users.

00:17:53 ◼   ► - Yeah, totally.

00:17:55 ◼   ► - Like that's sort of, like who uses Photoshop?

00:17:58 ◼   ► It's people who sweat the pixels.

00:18:00 ◼   ► - Totally.

00:18:01 ◼   ► - Right, and this device is all about pixels,

00:18:03 ◼   ► and so it kind of makes sense.

00:18:05 ◼   ► That's what I took away from it.

00:18:06 ◼   ► - I would love it.

00:18:08 ◼   ► I hope that it works out.

00:18:09 ◼   ► - And I also think that it has something to do

00:18:11 ◼   ► with the target audience for the highest end

00:18:14 ◼   ► 15 inch MacBook Pro, which I think is very designer heavy.

00:18:18 ◼   ► hmm and

00:18:20 ◼   ► photographer and videographer heavy like

00:18:23 ◼   ► Photographers and videographers who have a Mac in the field with them, right?

00:18:28 ◼   ► I think you know everyone I've ever seen almost always has a 15 inch. Yeah

00:18:32 ◼   ► So the examples are what Photoshop AutoCAD, right which is interesting and then you know video stuff right photography stuff. Yeah make sense

00:18:40 ◼   ► Do you have low and Diablo?

00:18:43 ◼   ► Which was the top of everyone's mind?

00:18:46 ◼   ► With the new hardware yeah, but that's cool, but it looks amazing

00:18:50 ◼   ► I've just been informed that the bar is closed while we're talking

00:18:55 ◼   ► Is this is this a legal policy or

00:18:59 ◼   ► If it's up to me if I if it's my I mean it's my show I should have a say so I say the bar

00:19:05 ◼   ► Should be opened I mean

00:19:07 ◼   ► If if it was out of courtesy to me then you know if it's like a legal thing though

00:19:15 ◼   ► I don't want to go to jail so then keep it closed.

00:19:19 ◼   ► But if it was like a courtesy to the speakers thing,

00:19:21 ◼   ► just go ahead and drink.

00:19:22 ◼   ► - Screw it, it's fine.

00:19:24 ◼   ► - I mean this isn't water.

00:19:26 ◼   ► - I should have opened this sooner.

00:19:31 ◼   ► - So did you watch the keynote?

00:19:34 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:19:35 ◼   ► - What'd you think?

00:19:36 ◼   ► - Well they packed a lot of stuff in it.

00:19:39 ◼   ► I think everybody did a good job.

00:19:41 ◼   ► It flowed well, it covered a lot of ground.

00:19:43 ◼   ► It was long, it was interesting, I don't know.

00:19:45 ◼   ► - It was a really tight presentation in hindsight.

00:19:48 ◼   ► - Everything seemed to go off super smoothly.

00:19:51 ◼   ► The classic keynote bummer is when they can get

00:19:56 ◼   ► really bogged down in the demos.

00:19:58 ◼   ► I know that that's the part where you're like,

00:19:59 ◼   ► this is totally awesome, and here's 98 people

00:20:02 ◼   ► to demo various applications, and sometimes that can be great

00:20:06 ◼   ► and sometimes you get good jokes from it,

00:20:08 ◼   ► and sometimes, you know.

00:20:09 ◼   ► But they skipped that entirely, right?

00:20:11 ◼   ► So it was kind of nice, it just kept flowing.

00:20:13 ◼   ► It was tight and solid and yeah, I liked it.

00:20:15 ◼   ► - And I think Tim Cook has very, very quickly,

00:20:19 ◼   ► I mean, he's only publicly appeared as the CEO.

00:20:23 ◼   ► So he did the iPhone 4S on campus

00:20:30 ◼   ► like the day before Steve Jobs died.

00:20:33 ◼   ► So he wasn't, he was the CEO but Steve was still around.

00:20:36 ◼   ► And I think in hindsight everybody realized

00:20:39 ◼   ► that there was a sort of melancholy nature to that event.

00:20:43 ◼   ► So I don't think that one really counts because, and I think they played it perfectly, but

00:20:46 ◼   ► it doesn't really count.

00:20:47 ◼   ► And then I think he didn't do the book event in New York City because it was sort of small

00:20:52 ◼   ► potatoes and then he did the iPad thing, which I thought was great.

00:20:55 ◼   ► And now the WWDC, which is definitely special for Apple because the WWDC keynote is the

00:21:04 ◼   ► only public event Apple has left where somebody other than press gets to come.

00:21:10 ◼   ► You don't get to line up for anything anymore.

00:21:12 ◼   ► There's no more Mac World Expo.

00:21:13 ◼   ► So it's the one time where,

00:21:16 ◼   ► how many people here were at the keynote?

00:21:18 ◼   ► Show of hands, how many,

00:21:19 ◼   ► there's a lot of WWDC attendees, right?

00:21:21 ◼   ► Yeah, a lot of people.

00:21:22 ◼   ► - A lot of people.

00:21:23 ◼   ► - You know, people love it, but that's his one chance,

00:21:26 ◼   ► and that's the chance he has to speak in front.

00:21:27 ◼   ► I thought he was incredibly comfortable.

00:21:29 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:21:30 ◼   ► - And like--

00:21:31 ◼   ► - Well, the thing about it is

00:21:32 ◼   ► it just felt completely natural, right?

00:21:33 ◼   ► Like there was no slight tinge of anything weird.

00:21:37 ◼   ► It was just like, you know, it was like,

00:21:38 ◼   ► oh, this is, so clearly the right man for the job, right?

00:21:42 ◼   ► I mean, he knows exactly what he's doing.

00:21:43 ◼   ► Yeah, that was awesome.

00:21:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, and there's a real passion

00:21:47 ◼   ► you could just see with him like that.

00:21:49 ◼   ► And I really, who knows,

00:21:51 ◼   ► maybe it would have been the exact same movie

00:21:53 ◼   ► if Steve Jobs were still CEO.

00:21:55 ◼   ► But I thought that the emotional nature

00:21:57 ◼   ► of that movie at the outset,

00:22:00 ◼   ► which is really what all he really introduced

00:22:02 ◼   ► at the beginning, and this thing about helping

00:22:05 ◼   ► the amazing blind guy in Norway

00:22:08 ◼   ► who's going on like 15 mile walks in the woods

00:22:12 ◼   ► with nothing but his iPhone.

00:22:13 ◼   ► I mean, and the girl with the speech impediment

00:22:17 ◼   ► and the autistic kids and I mean everybody.

00:22:19 ◼   ► I mean, if you weren't choked up in that movie,

00:22:21 ◼   ► you're not hooked up right.

00:22:21 ◼   ► - Yeah, totally.

00:22:22 ◼   ► - But I thought that was very Tim Cook.

00:22:24 ◼   ► I mean, I think he really buys into that.

00:22:26 ◼   ► I mean, and he seemed choked up.

00:22:28 ◼   ► - Yeah, for sure.

00:22:29 ◼   ► That's good.

00:22:31 ◼   ► That's how it should be.

00:22:32 ◼   ► - So what, anything else on the MacBook Pro?

00:22:37 ◼   ► I'm just going through the keynote right yeah nothing really I mean no

00:22:43 ◼   ► hell of a screen is the future of us be three right that's about it yeah all

00:22:49 ◼   ► right when you think we're gonna have a retina iMac that's a really good

00:22:52 ◼   ► question I mean they they so there was this thing about the pros right this

00:22:57 ◼   ► hoopla about the pros right pros oh we should John Siracusa is here John

00:23:02 ◼   ► Siracusa is here he's very so you can see a look on his face that's here for

00:23:06 ◼   ► John Sirkis. >> Yeah, John. >> I have never seen him so angry.

00:23:12 ◼   ► He is like a whole rage angry about this Mac Pro upgrade. You

00:23:20 ◼   ► know, quote, upgrade. >> It's a huge upgrade. It's like a

00:23:26 ◼   ► practical -- John, it's a whole new product. It had a new badge

00:23:31 ◼   ► on it for a little while. >> You know what? I guess we should

00:23:35 ◼   ► So that's like what was not mentioned in the keynotes.

00:23:37 ◼   ► They did mention the Mac Pro upgrade,

00:23:39 ◼   ► which was like a tenth of a gigahertz.

00:23:43 ◼   ► - Really bad.

00:23:44 ◼   ► Like a couple extra perforated holes in the case maybe,

00:23:47 ◼   ► and yeah, that's about it.

00:23:50 ◼   ► - Right.

00:23:51 ◼   ► No holes for new ports though.

00:23:52 ◼   ► - Sharpened the handles a little bit.

00:23:55 ◼   ► - But did you see that there was one of those

00:23:57 ◼   ► angry Apple customers who writes to the CEO

00:24:02 ◼   ► and then gets a message back and publishes.

00:24:04 ◼   ► Tim Cook go back to somebody who,

00:24:07 ◼   ► may have been John under a different name.

00:24:09 ◼   ► - I think it was.

00:24:09 ◼   ► (audience laughing)

00:24:11 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:24:12 ◼   ► - And he was like, "Hey, not to worry,

00:24:13 ◼   ► "we're working on," I don't have the quote,

00:24:15 ◼   ► "but we're working on something for later next year."

00:24:19 ◼   ► - Which is so interesting for many reasons, right?

00:24:21 ◼   ► - Right.

00:24:22 ◼   ► - Just to hear Apple put a timeframe to anything

00:24:25 ◼   ► for any reason was pretty surprising, right?

00:24:27 ◼   ► Like they would never, it's funny,

00:24:29 ◼   ► this came directly after doubling down on secrecy.

00:24:32 ◼   ► - Right.

00:24:33 ◼   ► And I was like, oh, that's an interesting direction.

00:24:36 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:24:37 ◼   ► But I don't know, John, how did you feel

00:24:39 ◼   ► about that email from Tim Cook?

00:24:42 ◼   ► It made John happy. - It made John happy.

00:24:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's all that matters.

00:24:45 ◼   ► Yeah. - Right.

00:24:46 ◼   ► But I don't think it necessarily means new Mac Pros.

00:24:50 ◼   ► Like, he didn't say we have new Mac Pros coming next year.

00:24:53 ◼   ► - True, that's a good point. - He said we have something.

00:24:55 ◼   ► So I think it's like something that solves the problem

00:24:58 ◼   ► of people who want new Mac Pros.

00:25:00 ◼   ► So who knows what that could mean.

00:25:02 ◼   ► Do you use both optical drives in the macro?

00:25:06 ◼   ► Yes, you do!

00:25:07 ◼   ► Good.

00:25:08 ◼   ► My whole life I've wanted to meet somebody

00:25:10 ◼   ► that uses both optical drives.

00:25:11 ◼   ► (audience laughing)

00:25:12 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:25:13 ◼   ► So it all worked out.

00:25:14 ◼   ► This was worth it.

00:25:16 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:25:17 ◼   ► That was unfair.

00:25:20 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:25:21 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:25:23 ◼   ► - So next up on the hit parade in the keynote

00:25:25 ◼   ► was Mountain Lion.

00:25:26 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:25:27 ◼   ► - Which maybe if there's anything surprising

00:25:28 ◼   ► about the keynote,

00:25:30 ◼   ► also part of the tight presentation

00:25:32 ◼   ► that Craig Federighi has suddenly gotten really, really good.

00:25:35 ◼   ► Incredibly good.

00:25:36 ◼   ► He went from-- two years ago, the first time he was on stage

00:25:39 ◼   ► was the Back to the Mac thing held on Apple's campus

00:25:43 ◼   ► where they first announced, well, I guess, Lion.

00:25:47 ◼   ► And he infamously had a real shaky hand on the mouse.

00:25:51 ◼   ► He was really kind of all for the watch.

00:25:53 ◼   ► He couldn't click on what he was supposed to click to because he was shaking.

00:25:57 ◼   ► That would be me.

00:25:58 ◼   ► And now he's up there and he looks aces.

00:26:01 ◼   ► If it wasn't an ad lib, it was brilliant.

00:26:03 ◼   ► When he did the Game Center thing,

00:26:05 ◼   ► and his game center name was like, what was it?

00:26:10 ◼   ► - Hair Force One.

00:26:11 ◼   ► - Hair Force One.

00:26:12 ◼   ► Because Craig Federighi has a wonderful head full of hair.

00:26:15 ◼   ► - Right, I mean, it's a thoroughfare.

00:26:16 ◼   ► - And he's just like, everybody laughs,

00:26:18 ◼   ► and he just goes, yeah, like I made that up.

00:26:20 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:26:21 ◼   ► It was a good line.

00:26:22 ◼   ► I even got laughs out of it here.

00:26:24 ◼   ► But he was really good.

00:26:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, that was impressive.

00:26:27 ◼   ► That was a solid team.

00:26:29 ◼   ► That team of people is really good.

00:26:30 ◼   ► And I think we miss Bertron.

00:26:34 ◼   ► I mean, everybody loved Bertron.

00:26:36 ◼   ► But it's hard to imagine Bertron doing a half hour

00:26:39 ◼   ► of the keynote like that.

00:26:40 ◼   ► I mean, half an hour in, he would have still

00:26:42 ◼   ► been talking about like feature one on the list.

00:26:44 ◼   ► I mean, Bertron is great, but he's a very slow speaker.

00:26:49 ◼   ► Yeah, that was awesome.

00:26:50 ◼   ► Everybody did an incredible job.

00:26:53 ◼   ► And like I said in my little piece

00:26:56 ◼   ► yesterday that I think they're clearly

00:26:58 ◼   ► becoming a walking and chewing gum at the same time company that they've got two major

00:27:02 ◼   ► OS updates in one year, whereas years ago they had to actually just issue a statement

00:27:07 ◼   ► and say, "You know what? We've got to delay the Mac OS X update by seven months because

00:27:12 ◼   ► all the good people are working on the iPhone."

00:27:14 ◼   ► The only thing that makes me mildly nervous about the velocity is that every now and then

00:27:18 ◼   ► we get that feeling that it might just be going a little bit too fast. And I know that

00:27:22 ◼   ► counters what you're saying about that, you know. I mean, it was unfortunate when they

00:27:25 ◼   ► have that delay and all this other stuff.

00:27:26 ◼   ► But sometimes it feels like the speed is just like,

00:27:29 ◼   ► there's no looking back.

00:27:30 ◼   ► And there's no-- do you know what I'm talking about?

00:27:33 ◼   ► Maybe it's more on the developer side.

00:27:34 ◼   ► We encounter this more, but I don't know.

00:27:37 ◼   ► As a user, it's great because they're adding an incredible

00:27:39 ◼   ► amount of new features all the time.

00:27:41 ◼   ► And everybody wins who uses the platform.

00:27:43 ◼   ► But sometimes it's pretty rough on the developers.

00:27:46 ◼   ► Sometimes things are not quite probably where they should be.

00:27:49 ◼   ► Like in the middle years of Mac OS X, the first couple years,

00:27:52 ◼   ► it was an annual schedule.

00:27:53 ◼   ► Right.

00:27:54 ◼   ► And then it was like an unofficial, like, about, seemed like about two years.

00:27:59 ◼   ► And maybe they would shoot for 18 months but it would slip and then, you know, about two

00:28:02 ◼   ► years was a much more comfortable pace for OS updates.

00:28:05 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:28:06 ◼   ► Hopefully they can get these yearly releases and they can be just rock solid and amazing.

00:28:10 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:28:11 ◼   ► I hope so.

00:28:12 ◼   ► That's my hope.

00:28:13 ◼   ► There wasn't much new announced with Mountain Lion though.

00:28:17 ◼   ► No.

00:28:18 ◼   ► That we didn't know from when they took the curtains off it back in February.

00:28:22 ◼   ► Dictation?

00:28:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, dictation is new.

00:28:24 ◼   ► And I did verify it is the same rules as iOS

00:28:30 ◼   ► where you have to have a net connection.

00:28:32 ◼   ► - Oh, sure, sure.

00:28:32 ◼   ► - And it round trips.

00:28:34 ◼   ► - It's the same engine, same everything, right?

00:28:35 ◼   ► - Exactly the same.

00:28:36 ◼   ► Yeah, but little things, but nothing

00:28:39 ◼   ► that we didn't really know.

00:28:41 ◼   ► - Makes sense.

00:28:41 ◼   ► - Right.

00:28:42 ◼   ► And then iOS 6.

00:28:44 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:28:45 ◼   ► - So what do you think of iOS 6?

00:28:47 ◼   ► - I mean, there's a lot of really cool stuff.

00:28:50 ◼   ► Let's talk about, well, the two things

00:28:51 ◼   ► that really excited me.

00:28:53 ◼   ► Actually, the thing that excites me

00:28:54 ◼   ► almost more than anything else is Passbook for some reason.

00:28:58 ◼   ► And I don't know why.

00:28:58 ◼   ► I think I've always had this dream of not having my wallet,

00:29:02 ◼   ► and this is just very slightly closer to that.

00:29:04 ◼   ► And when I saw that, I immediately said to myself,

00:29:09 ◼   ► you know, when the iPhone 5 comes out,

00:29:10 ◼   ► and it's got the NFC, and it's like, you know,

00:29:14 ◼   ► replaces my debit card, and it replaces my credit card.

00:29:16 ◼   ► This is my dream, of course, but like,

00:29:18 ◼   ► it seemed like this is the halfway point to that.

00:29:21 ◼   ► And so I'm really hoping that's the end game.

00:29:24 ◼   ► 'Cause I don't want to have a wallet,

00:29:26 ◼   ► I just wanna have my phone,

00:29:27 ◼   ► I want everything to be on there.

00:29:28 ◼   ► Now, getting that to work with every merchant

00:29:30 ◼   ► in the universe and these terrible,

00:29:32 ◼   ► somebody, I think it's Steve,

00:29:34 ◼   ► has one of those Wells Fargo debit cards

00:29:36 ◼   ► that has like, is it called PayWave or something?

00:29:39 ◼   ► Like certain merchants have this little logo

00:29:40 ◼   ► and you're supposed to just be able to slap your card there.

00:29:42 ◼   ► And so just for his own self amusement,

00:29:44 ◼   ► he tries it every time and it's never worked once.

00:29:47 ◼   ► And every time the people at the counter are like,

00:29:49 ◼   ► I don't really know what that's for, you know?

00:29:51 ◼   ► like, oh yeah, that's never worked or whatever.

00:29:53 ◼   ► So if they're, that's the one thing that makes me nervous

00:29:56 ◼   ► about my dream is like it's one thing to make the technology

00:29:58 ◼   ► and have the great UI and put it in the hardware,

00:30:01 ◼   ► but getting it in the shops, I don't know.

00:30:04 ◼   ► That seems like an uphill battle.

00:30:05 ◼   ► - Yeah, calling it a halfway step is I think exactly right.

00:30:08 ◼   ► And I think a lot of the problems that Apple,

00:30:11 ◼   ► the biggest problems Apple is facing are these things

00:30:14 ◼   ► that require multiple very different things to be alignment.

00:30:19 ◼   ► So Retina Display Max is a perfect example where A) you've got to solve the technology

00:30:27 ◼   ► problem of making a display that big with all those pixels and have it be good.

00:30:30 ◼   ► So that's just a pure hardware engineering thing.

00:30:32 ◼   ► But then you've got to have the OS ready to support it, and then you've got to have

00:30:37 ◼   ► all the designers actually go and make all of that artwork, every single piece of artwork

00:30:42 ◼   ► in the entire OS.

00:30:44 ◼   ► Again.

00:30:45 ◼   ► Again.

00:30:46 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:30:47 ◼   ► just like double the work, it's harder because it's gonna be four times bigger

00:30:50 ◼   ► so it's got to look better. Did you find it does it take a lot longer to make

00:30:55 ◼   ► retina caliber UI graphics? You know with our workflow you know and how just

00:31:02 ◼   ► using shape layers and Photoshop and kind of being vector based behind the

00:31:06 ◼   ► scenes anyways it's not that much harder for us. There was some parts of our

00:31:10 ◼   ► process were harder like the web pages were a little bit harder because it's

00:31:14 ◼   ► just a little not something we're used to.

00:31:17 ◼   ► The diet coda and coda two web pages are totally retinal

00:31:20 ◼   ► 'cause we figured people would be looking at these

00:31:21 ◼   ► on the iPad and they look awesome,

00:31:23 ◼   ► but that was just slightly weirder

00:31:24 ◼   ► 'cause we weren't used to it, but we did it.

00:31:26 ◼   ► Everybody worked hard, Nevin worked hard

00:31:28 ◼   ► and Konichi worked hard and everybody worked hard.

00:31:30 ◼   ► It's just doable, you just crank through it.

00:31:32 ◼   ► But what the heck were you talking about?

00:31:33 ◼   ► - IOS 6. - Yeah, and the wallet.

00:31:36 ◼   ► - Yeah, oh yeah, Passbook. - And the halfway point.

00:31:39 ◼   ► - Yeah, so I think the halfway point is to get the,

00:31:43 ◼   ► have the app, maybe it's more than halfway,

00:31:45 ◼   ► and your partners, right?

00:31:47 ◼   ► But right now, everything seems to be scanner-based.

00:31:50 ◼   ► You QR codes and bar codes, and it's all, you wave it,

00:31:54 ◼   ► you gotta go, if you get a baseball ticket,

00:31:56 ◼   ► you've gotta, it's all getting scanned by like a

00:31:58 ◼   ► red infrared laser thing.

00:32:01 ◼   ► - I also have a related story

00:32:03 ◼   ► that makes me nervous about that future,

00:32:04 ◼   ► is because I once, Alaska Airlines has an app

00:32:06 ◼   ► that lets you get your boarding pass on your phone,

00:32:09 ◼   ► which sounded really cool to me,

00:32:10 ◼   ► because I hate printing boarding passes,

00:32:11 ◼   ► I always forget, and I could do it in the car.

00:32:13 ◼   ► And so we were on the way to the airport,

00:32:14 ◼   ► and I got the boarding passes all ready to go.

00:32:17 ◼   ► And my wife and son and I wait through the security line,

00:32:19 ◼   ► and we get to the front.

00:32:21 ◼   ► And I show the guy the phone, and he just kind of goes, oh.

00:32:23 ◼   ► Yeah, we don't have that scanner.

00:32:25 ◼   ► Like, we just don't have that.

00:32:27 ◼   ► And I'm like, what am I supposed to do now?

00:32:29 ◼   ► So he's like, you need to go print a boarding pass.

00:32:32 ◼   ► So we literally had to leave, print boarding passes,

00:32:35 ◼   ► wait through the entire security line again.

00:32:37 ◼   ► And this gets to my point about the implementation

00:32:40 ◼   ► being the challenge because if you,

00:32:42 ◼   ► just having that one failure,

00:32:44 ◼   ► I knew I would never try it again, right?

00:32:46 ◼   ► Because if there's a 1% chance

00:32:48 ◼   ► that I'm gonna get to the end of that long line

00:32:50 ◼   ► and it's not gonna work, I'm not gonna do it.

00:32:52 ◼   ► I'm gonna use the thing I'm most familiar with.

00:32:53 ◼   ► So that part makes me nervous as well.

00:32:55 ◼   ► - And I thought Scott Forstall was pretty open and honest

00:32:58 ◼   ► about one of the downsides of the whole way it is now

00:33:01 ◼   ► with a bunch of separate apps,

00:33:02 ◼   ► which is that if it's not on your first

00:33:04 ◼   ► or second iPhone screen, I mean,

00:33:05 ◼   ► - Right. - You're kinda lost.

00:33:07 ◼   ► And it's like, it's the worst time

00:33:10 ◼   ► you've got all these people behind you and everybody wants to get on the plane and you're the

00:33:13 ◼   ► guy sitting there opening up your folders. >> And the guy's going, ugh. I did as a side note

00:33:21 ◼   ► though send a sternly worded letter and got $50 credit at Alaska Airlines so it was totally

00:33:25 ◼   ► worth it. I'd do it again. 50 bucks a pop. >> And we've never even used the thing yet. But I

00:33:33 ◼   ► do think that everybody is already thinking, well, this is going to work even better once the

00:33:36 ◼   ► the NFC stuff is hooked up and you just wave the phone.

00:33:40 ◼   ► And 'cause the other part of it with the NFC stuff

00:33:42 ◼   ► is it's not enough to just have it in the phone.

00:33:44 ◼   ► Like I'm sure anybody from Google could tell you that,

00:33:47 ◼   ► that having it in a phone doesn't mean you get to use it.

00:33:49 ◼   ► Right? - Right.

00:33:50 ◼   ► - Right.

00:33:51 ◼   ► - How has that stuff gone for them?

00:33:53 ◼   ► Have you ever tried it?

00:33:54 ◼   ► - Well, I-- - Google Wallet?

00:33:55 ◼   ► - No, not really. - Yeah, all right.

00:33:56 ◼   ► - Although I did see at Peets today

00:33:58 ◼   ► that Peets takes the Google Wallet.

00:34:00 ◼   ► - Huh. - But I don't know

00:34:01 ◼   ► how it works. - Yeah.

00:34:02 ◼   ► - But the other half of it is you've gotta have partners,

00:34:04 ◼   ► retail partners who are gonna do the handshake

00:34:06 ◼   ► have the hardware there so that your phone that can do it, there's somebody there to listen

00:34:12 ◼   ► and do it. The other thing that stuck out at me was I don't know why, because it's just

00:34:18 ◼   ► something I've always been unsure whether Apple would do is add pull to refresh to mail.

00:34:23 ◼   ► >> Yeah. What did you think about that? >> Have you used it? Have you put the

00:34:28 ◼   ► beta on the phone? >> The animation looks crazy, but I haven't seen it yet.

00:34:32 ◼   ► So I was playing with it over, somebody had it on a phone

00:34:35 ◼   ► and I got to play with it.

00:34:37 ◼   ► And it is different than everybody else's

00:34:39 ◼   ► because there's, you have to pull further.

00:34:42 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:34:43 ◼   ► - And once you pull that far, the refresh happens.

00:34:47 ◼   ► You don't, it doesn't activate.

00:34:48 ◼   ► - It's not when you let go.

00:34:49 ◼   ► - It doesn't activate on letting go.

00:34:50 ◼   ► It activates on once you've pulled to a certain distance.

00:34:54 ◼   ► Which doesn't feel right to me.

00:34:55 ◼   ► - No, that doesn't seem, it seems like the action is the,

00:34:58 ◼   ► when we were talking about earlier,

00:34:59 ◼   ► like the shotgun reload,

00:35:00 ◼   ► you got to have that double, you know, yeah. It doesn't seem

00:35:04 ◼   ► like triggering something at the end of a gesture really feels

00:35:06 ◼   ► natural. >> Right. So we had a little table side discussion at

00:35:11 ◼   ► WWDC and opinion seemed very split on why that is. Theory one

00:35:17 ◼   ► is that it's reading the letter of Twitter's pull to refresh

00:35:22 ◼   ► patent. >> Oh, interesting. >> And that they determine that

00:35:25 ◼   ► if they do it not on let down but on just pull that it's not in

00:35:31 ◼   ► violation of the patent. That seems silly to me but all

00:35:33 ◼   ► software patents seem silly to me. >> Didn't they say they

00:35:35 ◼   ► weren't going to do anything negative with those patents or

00:35:37 ◼   ► whatever? >> Yeah but I don't think Apple's lawyers -- if you

00:35:42 ◼   ► went to Apple legal and said the Twitter guy said they're never

00:35:45 ◼   ► going to do anything and then Apple's lawyers would be like

00:35:47 ◼   ► oh, okay. >> Well, fine. They wrote a blog post? Cool. >> So

00:35:51 ◼   ► is it patent circumvention which really stinks if it is. >> I

00:35:55 ◼   ► don't think so. >> Or is it a lack of humility on the part of

00:36:00 ◼   ► summon at Apple who said we can't do exactly what Lauren

00:36:06 ◼   ► Brikter invented for Tweety. We got to plus it. >> Slightly

00:36:11 ◼   ► different. >> Now it's good. >> It's ours. I don't know. >>

00:36:15 ◼   ► Have they shown that humility before? Is there any track

00:36:19 ◼   ► record to slight tweaks? >> Well, they've stolen something --

00:36:24 ◼   ► well, ripped off -- what's it better, copied. Something like,

00:36:27 ◼   ► you know, the code of tabs. I think they took without

00:36:30 ◼   ► changing. >> Oh, the selection state. >> Right. >> There was a

00:36:34 ◼   ► slight change. >> I don't think it's institutional. I do think

00:36:37 ◼   ► though that at a personal level it could be that somebody on the

00:36:40 ◼   ► mail team did not want an exact duplication of it. >> That's a

00:36:45 ◼   ► pretty solid theory. >> Yeah. >> But even so, even though I

00:36:48 ◼   ► don't think it's an ideal pull to refresh. I'm so glad it's

00:36:52 ◼   ► there because I have pulled to refresh in mail on my iPhone.

00:36:56 ◼   ► >> So many times. >> Oh, my God. Once a day. >> Yeah. Maybe they

00:37:00 ◼   ► log an event. Like diagnostic thing. Any time somebody did

00:37:05 ◼   ► that and they're like shit, we got to edit. >> I wonder. Maybe.

00:37:07 ◼   ► >> 100,000 today alone. >> The other feature, the one other

00:37:12 ◼   ► feature from iOS, we can talk about maps. >> Yeah. I tried the

00:37:16 ◼   ► 3D. It was incredible. It looked amazing on the iPad. Portland wasn't mapped for some reason

00:37:22 ◼   ► so I was bummed out because I couldn't 3D around Portland but they'll get there. There's

00:37:25 ◼   ► been some kerfuffle about the bikes and the walking being gone. And the transit and all

00:37:32 ◼   ► that stuff. There's like an e‑petition of course already because those are always incredibly

00:37:37 ◼   ► effective and it's Apple bring back transit map. There's this trend that I've noticed

00:37:43 ◼   ► lately where people just assume if something is missing or

00:37:47 ◼   ► broken that it's intentional malice every time. It's a really

00:37:51 ◼   ► fascinating thing to witness. We see it too. Sometimes things are

00:37:55 ◼   ► just broken or missing. It's not always like a conspiracy. >>

00:37:59 ◼   ► What exactly does the petition want Apple to do? Go back to

00:38:03 ◼   ► Google and say let us switch to Google Maps when you want walking

00:38:07 ◼   ► directions? >> The assumption is they intentionally removed it

00:38:10 ◼   ► because they didn't think people wanted it anymore which is

00:38:12 ◼   ► >> Totally false. It's just a matter of they're building their

00:38:15 ◼   ► own mapping solution from scratch. They haven't presumably

00:38:18 ◼   ► gotten to it yet. That's my assumption. >> The maps are

00:38:21 ◼   ► beautiful. They do look far better. And the 3D stuff seems

00:38:25 ◼   ► -- I think it seems genuinely useful. But I don't have much to

00:38:30 ◼   ► say about that. It's sort of like one of those things where

00:38:32 ◼   ► it's been rumored for so long and then it came out exactly as

00:38:35 ◼   ► we thought it would. >> The turn by turn directions, is that

00:38:39 ◼   ► something you use ever when you drive? No, I don't, I've never used turn-by-turn

00:38:43 ◼   ► directions when I drive because I have an unerring sense of direction. I played

00:38:49 ◼   ► a lot of Zelda as a kid so I can find my way around pretty well. Yeah. Is my wife

00:38:53 ◼   ► out there, is my wife listening? She's probably rolling her eyes. I assume you're being

00:38:56 ◼   ► sarcastic. Yeah, I have a terrible sense of direction. I just the other day I we were

00:39:02 ◼   ► we were driving to her family it's about 50 miles outside the city and I pulled

00:39:08 ◼   ► all for halfway to get gas and then we came back out of the gas

00:39:11 ◼   ► station and I got on this Google expressway heading east back to

00:39:15 ◼   ► Philadelphia and I happened to be an exit that's like nine miles

00:39:21 ◼   ► from the next exit. So I probably do need it. >> So maybe

00:39:25 ◼   ► you should use the term by turn directions. Okay. >> But it

00:39:29 ◼   ► seems pretty good. I've heard -- I don't know if anybody can --

00:39:31 ◼   ► I've heard a rumor that it's like licensed from Tom Tom. >>

00:39:34 ◼   ► >> Yeah, somebody that's in the little settings curl or

00:39:37 ◼   ► whatever. >> Sort of in the same way that the dictation is

00:39:40 ◼   ► licensed from the Dragon dictate people. >> Yep. >> Which I think

00:39:44 ◼   ► is kind of like a sign of Apple being willing to say, look, we

00:39:47 ◼   ► just want the best thing. We don't have to do it all

00:39:50 ◼   ► ourselves. >> Just bring the pieces together. >> Right. >>

00:39:52 ◼   ► Yeah. But that's weird because in the past they would generally

00:39:54 ◼   ► acquire those companies or try to acquire those companies. It's

00:39:57 ◼   ► weird to see them give more credit and sort of have working

00:39:59 ◼   ► relationships. >> Yeah, I'm really surprised that they

00:40:02 ◼   ► haven't acquired Dragon just because it seems like whatever

00:40:04 ◼   ► dragons worth it. >> Totally. >> It can't be that big. >> And

00:40:10 ◼   ► then the last iOS 6 feature that really caught my eye was the new

00:40:14 ◼   ► stuff in Siri and bringing it to the iPad. >> I know you're a

00:40:19 ◼   ► sports fan. Are you excited about the sports data? >> I

00:40:22 ◼   ► really was. I hope it worked out. >> You can see how many

00:40:24 ◼   ► field goals the Mets made in the world bowl. >> I -- >> I don't

00:40:31 ◼   ► really know much about sports.

00:40:33 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:40:34 ◼   ► But it looked cool.

00:40:35 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:40:37 ◼   ► And I think that the way that they're doing it, to me, is

00:40:40 ◼   ► clearly competitive against Google.

00:40:44 ◼   ► And so how would you go about replacing Google, like doing

00:40:49 ◼   ► your own search engine?

00:40:50 ◼   ► Well, I don't think Apple would ever, ever just do a

00:40:52 ◼   ► Google search engine.

00:40:53 ◼   ► Right.

00:40:54 ◼   ► And to be better than Google, you've got to be good at like

00:40:57 ◼   ► 100,000 different things that people search for.

00:41:00 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:41:01 ◼   ► So they're not.

00:41:02 ◼   ► So if you just want to do a web search,

00:41:04 ◼   ► you still go to Google, which is the best.

00:41:05 ◼   ► But what they're doing is biting off this long tail

00:41:10 ◼   ► where 999,000 of those things,

00:41:13 ◼   ► they don't have to worry about.

00:41:14 ◼   ► And if they just do weather, sports, and restaurants,

00:41:18 ◼   ► it's like things people search for on their phone.

00:41:20 ◼   ► - All the time.

00:41:21 ◼   ► - And all of a sudden with just five or six things,

00:41:24 ◼   ► it's an awful lot of the reason that people

00:41:27 ◼   ► use Google on their phone.

00:41:31 ◼   ► the movies and the restaurants thing alone

00:41:33 ◼   ► has gotta be like--

00:41:35 ◼   ► - And more partnerships there, right?

00:41:36 ◼   ► 'Cause the restaurant stuff came from Yelp, I think?

00:41:38 ◼   ► - Yeah, the restaurant stuff comes from Yelp,

00:41:40 ◼   ► and the sports stuff comes from Yahoo.

00:41:42 ◼   ► - Right.

00:41:43 ◼   ► - And that, it's just, all I saw was a little Y

00:41:45 ◼   ► in the corner with the exclamation mark,

00:41:46 ◼   ► and I just realized that as a little side thing,

00:41:49 ◼   ► it just shows how low Yahoo's fallen in the tech world,

00:41:52 ◼   ► where Yahoo had some technology in the big Apple keynote,

00:41:59 ◼   ► and they never even got a mention or a thank you.

00:42:03 ◼   ► All they got was a little tiny Y and an exclamation mark

00:42:07 ◼   ► in a corner of a screenshot.

00:42:09 ◼   ► - Maybe if you tap it, it takes you to the Yahoo home page.

00:42:11 ◼   ► - Oh, I'm sure it does, but no, they don't get mentioned.

00:42:14 ◼   ► - Get your horoscope.

00:42:15 ◼   ► - And it does seem, I always call it marketing spite,

00:42:19 ◼   ► and maybe that's unfair, but the way that Apple

00:42:23 ◼   ► is doling out which features go to which devices,

00:42:27 ◼   ► and it has gotten very complicated.

00:42:29 ◼   ► was one of the last things I linked to before coming here to

00:42:31 ◼   ► do the show was a check mark matrix at Mac rumors saying

00:42:37 ◼   ► here's all these new features in iOS, here's which devices get

00:42:40 ◼   ► them. >> I haven't seen that yet but did it make sense? >> No, it

00:42:44 ◼   ► doesn't make sense. For example, the 3GS gets nothing except that

00:42:49 ◼   ► it gets to run iOS 6. But it doesn't even get VIP email list.

00:42:55 ◼   ► >> What? >> Right? So the feature is called VIP email. You can pick cable Sasser. I say you're a VIP.

00:43:01 ◼   ► >> All of you should do this on your phones. >> I think everybody should add cable to their VIP.

00:43:07 ◼   ► >> I really appreciate that. Make me feel very special. >> Because you're much like me with email where if you get one

00:43:13 ◼   ► ever response it's actually pretty good. >> If you get a response. >> Right.

00:43:19 ◼   ► >> Why would they bring that? >> I don't know. It certainly

00:43:24 ◼   ► isn't because the thing isn't fast enough. >> There could be

00:43:26 ◼   ► like a hardware chip to keep that list. >> So like the lack

00:43:31 ◼   ► of flyover mode in maps. >> Right. >> I understand you need

00:43:35 ◼   ► like a real fancy GPU. VIP email. Boy, that seems really

00:43:41 ◼   ► spicy. >> We know they've done this before. They've held back

00:43:43 ◼   ► features to encourage adoption of new devices, right? That's

00:43:48 ◼   ► what this is. >> I call it marketing spite but maybe spite is too strong a word. It's just how

00:43:54 ◼   ► to make $100 billion. >> Right. Right. >> I think that's it for the keynote news. I want to

00:44:00 ◼   ► talk to you about CODA and diet CODA and everything else panic is doing. In the meantime I

00:44:10 ◼   ► want to take a time out here and I want to thank our friends at media temple. You guys are

00:44:17 ◼   ► drinking on their dime. They've got some really cool announcements. They're doing some great

00:44:28 ◼   ► stuff with my friends at Mule Radio Syndicate. They have a contest. They have all sorts of

00:44:31 ◼   ► stuff. But I will let Russ Reeder explain it to you. >> All right. Thanks, John. Great job,

00:44:38 ◼   ► guys. It's been great to sit back and listen. Also talked to a lot of Media Temple customers

00:44:44 ◼   ► today. So thank you very much. Mule Radio, thank you. And who -- we've heard people put up

00:44:50 ◼   ► their hands for a new iPhone years ago and a new Apple TV. Who is going to get the retina?

00:44:58 ◼   ► Anyone going to get the MacBook retina? Good chunk of hands out there. All right. So media

00:45:03 ◼   ► temple. Who wants one? How about -- who would like one? All right. So media temple. John

00:45:10 ◼   ► doesn't do anything kind of halfway. So what Media Temple is going to do is if you go to the

00:45:15 ◼   ► blog tomorrow or follow us on Twitter, we're going to give away a MacBook Pro Retina tomorrow if

00:45:21 ◼   ► you use Gruber as the code. So definitely follow us. And a lot of people asked when we were

00:45:28 ◼   ► talking to some customers out there, they asked, hey, Russ, why are you going to sponsor

00:45:35 ◼   ► something here at the WWDC. Well this is a great place for Media Temple to get your apps

00:45:44 ◼   ► and websites hosted, especially as you go more towards that hybrid or even a web app

00:45:50 ◼   ► kind of approach. We've got about two million websites out there. A lot of you guys are

00:45:54 ◼   ► already customers and we just really appreciate the designer and developer community. That's

00:45:59 ◼   ► where we started. That's where we are. We're a bunch of engineers ourselves and I just

00:46:03 ◼   ► want to thank everyone out there. So hey John, thank you very much. >> Just once again, to get

00:46:08 ◼   ► entered in a contest, the code is Gruber, G-R-U-B-E-R. >> I use that as a promo code on every

00:46:14 ◼   ► website. It doesn't work very often. >> Tomorrow you go to the media temple blog and what do

00:46:20 ◼   ► you do? >> Go to the media temple, we're going to have all the information out there. You can

00:46:26 ◼   ► either come on and it will be a 25% discount to get media temple services or you can just put in

00:46:32 ◼   ► Gruber and there will be a link there to actually to try to get a media temple Macbook Pro

00:46:39 ◼   ► retina without even buying anything. So on -- we will have all -- you can go right to media

00:46:45 ◼   ► temple and use the code Gruber tomorrow to buy your next host service or if you want details on

00:46:52 ◼   ► how to get the Macbook Pro retina without having to buy media temple service, you can follow us

00:46:59 ◼   ► on the -- check out our blog tomorrow. >> Nice. >> Those of you listening at home who are not

00:47:05 ◼   ► here in the event, this is good for you too. This is not just for attendees of the event. But

00:47:08 ◼   ► shame on you for not being here. All right. Thanks, guys. Thank you. >> Thank you very much.

00:47:14 ◼   ► Thank you so much. >> Cool. >> Very cool. 25% discount and a chance to win. >> That's like an

00:47:27 ◼   ► old time radio commercial break. >> Yeah. >> I really liked it. >> So at the outset of the show,

00:47:33 ◼   ► you mentioned that you made a deliberate effort years ago to go pro focus. >> Yeah. >> And I

00:47:41 ◼   ► thought that was interesting. You're saying that it was a strategic idea that the way you avoid

00:47:49 ◼   ► getting steam rolled by Apple is to stay out of the consumer space. >> That's right. And that

00:47:54 ◼   ► was a -- it wasn't exactly -- it was just a very organic decision because we knew that,

00:48:00 ◼   ► you know, Apple was exploding their software efforts. They made some software before but

00:48:06 ◼   ► things like iLife and all of these apps were coming out of nowhere at a rapid pace. So

00:48:10 ◼   ► yeah, it was kind of like a conscious decision. We have to try to do things that are apps

00:48:17 ◼   ► that are bigger, apps that are more complex and apps that are more for pro users. And

00:48:23 ◼   ► sort of transmit we push more in that direction and Coda was

00:48:26 ◼   ► really the first of, you know, that was sort of the culmination

00:48:30 ◼   ► of that plan was this is a big honking app. >> You know what?

00:48:34 ◼   ► And I thought of you and we covered this five years ago but

00:48:38 ◼   ► the original name of transmit was transit. >> Transit which

00:48:42 ◼   ► makes so much more sense with the truck. >> Right. >> I'm

00:48:46 ◼   ► still kind of mad about that. >> And there was like a legal

00:48:49 ◼   ► dispute over somebody else who claimed to own a trademark so

00:48:52 ◼   ► you added the M which is pretty subtle. >> Just added an M. >>

00:48:57 ◼   ► But then I thought of you in the keynote yesterday because Apple

00:48:59 ◼   ► had a slide up when they were talking about their new maps and

00:49:03 ◼   ► the fact that you don't get turn by turn directions or they said

00:49:07 ◼   ► transit apps. >> Right. >> And I thought of you. >> It was a

00:49:10 ◼   ► part of my brain. Oh, God, not that one, too. What next? Every

00:49:16 ◼   ► year we joke that the big new feature of Mac OS is a built-in

00:49:20 ◼   ► HTML development environment or whatever.

00:49:23 ◼   ► I mean, I realize the odds are pretty slim at this point,

00:49:26 ◼   ► but yeah, ever since the infamous iTunes keynote,

00:49:30 ◼   ► and we knew that was coming, so it wasn't a surprise,

00:49:33 ◼   ► but it was still just like such a classic Apple,

00:49:35 ◼   ► like I can still hear it in my mind,

00:49:38 ◼   ► like I remember the infamous like,

00:49:40 ◼   ► "And we have this great idea where

00:49:42 ◼   ► "what if you could visualize music?

00:49:46 ◼   ► "No one's ever done this before."

00:49:48 ◼   ► like come on, it's just a visualizer. Yeah, so anyways,

00:49:53 ◼   ► yeah, transit. >> It is true though, like I look at the panic

00:49:58 ◼   ► suite of software, what you guys offer, and it's like I think

00:50:03 ◼   ► when I think of panic, I think of the interfaces first. And I

00:50:06 ◼   ► don't think that's a surprise. I think everybody would agree with

00:50:09 ◼   ► that. That's the whole point. The whole point is what if we

00:50:13 ◼   ► didn't put insane attention on the interface. Like just over

00:50:16 ◼   ► the top and even more than Apple like this incredible attention to these utterly minor

00:50:22 ◼   ► details. And in a very friendly way, I think your software is almost a reflection of your

00:50:28 ◼   ► personality. It's like friendly. It's nice. It lacks. But it is like seriously nerdy stuff. Like

00:50:33 ◼   ► you don't think about that. It's this very, very consumer-y look and style that's

00:50:39 ◼   ► is you don't think about that. It's very, very consumer-y look

00:50:46 ◼   ► and style. >> For something that's incredibly

00:50:49 ◼   ► specific. Yeah. And it's interesting. And like I said

00:50:53 ◼   ► earlier, I kind of miss the consumer little stuff. I kind of

00:50:56 ◼   ► -- I mean, it would be nice to make something that my parents

00:50:59 ◼   ► can use on their iPhones, you know, that my wife would use on

00:51:02 ◼   ► her iPhone. They're not developing websites on their

00:51:05 ◼   ► iPad or whatever, you know. So it's super rewarding because

00:51:09 ◼   ► it's nice to -- it's a really fun process to have this really

00:51:13 ◼   ► complicated thing you want to make but then try to wrap it

00:51:17 ◼   ► around this friendly -- I mean it's like one of the hardest

00:51:19 ◼   ► things. It's very difficult and it takes a lot of work and it's

00:51:22 ◼   ► not easy but when you're done, I mean, you know, it feels great.

00:51:26 ◼   ► So I like that process. But yeah, it would be nice to

00:51:29 ◼   ► balance it out a little bit more. Be nice to go back.

00:51:32 ◼   ► >> And with diet coda, you really -- >> Diet coda is our

00:51:37 ◼   ► iPad. >> My theory is that maybe you guys were on the fence

00:51:42 ◼   ► about whether you should do Coda for the iPad but then somebody

00:51:46 ◼   ► came up with the name Diet Coda and you knew you had to do it.

00:51:51 ◼   ► >> The funny thing is we can't even remember who coined that in

00:51:53 ◼   ► the office. It's funny, the thing about Diet Coda was people

00:51:59 ◼   ► kept asking us for -- people ask us for apps all the time. You

00:52:04 ◼   ► should make an email client or whatever. But when it came to I want to do HTML on my iPad,

00:52:11 ◼   ► everybody said the exact same thing. I want to make quick fixes to websites on my iPad.

00:52:17 ◼   ► Verbatim, that is the quote that everybody independently used. And that is why the website

00:52:22 ◼   ► says make quick fixes to your website on your iPad. It's like people came up with this marketing

00:52:27 ◼   ► slogan for us and it was -- that definitely cemented it, right? It's like people apparently

00:52:32 ◼   ► want to do this. >> That's interesting. I think it goes back to the original iPad

00:52:38 ◼   ► introduction event where Steve Jobs even said, you know, here's your MacBook, here's your

00:52:44 ◼   ► phone. Is there room in the middle? We think so, but we're not even sure what that is. >> I kept

00:52:50 ◼   ► on my desktop for the past two and a half years, I kept a bookmark to an article that was a

00:52:55 ◼   ► review of the original iPad and the guy was really down on it. I specifically remember him

00:53:00 ◼   ► saying is anybody ever going to make a web page on an iPad? No

00:53:04 ◼   ► way. So I kept it on my desktop just as my own little motivator.

00:53:08 ◼   ► I don't even know who this guy is. Maybe I should send him an

00:53:10 ◼   ► e-mail now and be like F you. >> No, no. >> We did it. >> No,

00:53:15 ◼   ► give me the URL and I'll claim chowder. >> Now we're talking

00:53:19 ◼   ► sponsored claim chowder. How much for a claim chowder? >> I

00:53:23 ◼   ► don't know. That would be pretty good. But I did notice

00:53:28 ◼   ► something. Here's something I noticed when I was looking at

00:53:29 ◼   ► your website in the title tag. Maybe you can fix it with Coda

00:53:33 ◼   ► Diet Coda right now. In the title tag at panic.com it says

00:53:38 ◼   ► panic shockingly good Mac software. >> I think that's a

00:53:44 ◼   ► bug. >> But it does -- still primarily overall a Mac software

00:53:51 ◼   ► company. >> It's true. I have very little to say. I immediately

00:53:57 ◼   ► want to leave stage and fix that. So I kind of wish you

00:54:00 ◼   ► hadn't brought it up right now. >> What would you change it to?

00:54:02 ◼   ► >> Nevin, can you fix that? Are you out there? >> That's a

00:54:06 ◼   ► really good question. Probably just Mac and iOS software. But

00:54:10 ◼   ► is there something better? >> Maybe just software. >> Damn it,

00:54:16 ◼   ► I really want to fix that now. >> And I think that there's a --

00:54:21 ◼   ► hey, we're walking and chewing gum angle with you guys now, too.

00:54:25 ◼   ► >> You guys have gotten bigger. You guys have a bunch of

00:54:28 ◼   ► designers or at least you and Evan. >> A couple. >> So you

00:54:33 ◼   ► used to design everything and now you've got other people.

00:54:36 ◼   ► You've got teams. >> Thank God. Yes. Well, and so this process

00:54:40 ◼   ► has been strangely stressful for me. I'm not a dude that gets

00:54:44 ◼   ► super stressed out easily but with trying to work on Coda 2

00:54:49 ◼   ► and Dicoda at the same time shooting for a simultaneous

00:54:52 ◼   ► ship date was really challenging. And I mean developing them, testing them, and what really

00:54:58 ◼   ► threw me for a loop was just the uncertainty of Apple. I mean it's the first time we've

00:55:02 ◼   ► really been beholden to the review process in a significant way times two, you know.

00:55:08 ◼   ► And I don't know if you saw on our blog we timed out this Hawaii trip so that we could,

00:55:13 ◼   ► you know, I promised everybody that we'd go to Hawaii when we finished these apps and

00:55:17 ◼   ► somehow I was a man of my word and we went to Hawaii while the apps were in review but

00:55:21 ◼   ► I did not relax on that trip in any way, shape or form. Because stuff just kept coming up.

00:55:27 ◼   ► Like I mentioned this, but like I don't know, I'm sitting on the beach and I get my we've

00:55:32 ◼   ► been rejected again email because we showed on the first launch screen we ask you if you

00:55:37 ◼   ► want to turn on iCloud or not and we showed the iCloud logo. And that's a trademarked

00:55:42 ◼   ► Apple logo. And so I actually fixed that one myself by opening up the nib and just deleting

00:55:48 ◼   ► the image and I checked it in and the build server built a new

00:55:52 ◼   ► one and I actually literally submitted it from the airport

00:55:55 ◼   ► boarding the flight and it was like a scene from the world's

00:55:58 ◼   ► shittiest action movie because I'm like I have like four minutes

00:56:02 ◼   ► to go and it's like uploading API usage and like come on! You

00:56:07 ◼   ► know? And they're like last call for whatever. I'm like shit. It

00:56:10 ◼   ► was so bad. But yeah. That really threw us for a loop.

00:56:14 ◼   ► There were a lot of firsts with this process for us. And so

00:56:18 ◼   ► So that was a definite challenge.

00:56:20 ◼   ► But you know, I'm super excited about it.

00:56:22 ◼   ► And everybody is so smart and works so hard

00:56:25 ◼   ► and cares so much about the finished product.

00:56:27 ◼   ► And I'm super lucky for that.

00:56:29 ◼   ► - Was it the plan all along to have Coda 2

00:56:32 ◼   ► and Diet Coda come out at the same time?

00:56:35 ◼   ► - Always.

00:56:36 ◼   ► - Always? - Always.

00:56:37 ◼   ► - When did Coda 1 ship?

00:56:39 ◼   ► - Like, it was, Coda 1 was like 2007.

00:56:42 ◼   ► I seriously think 2007.

00:56:44 ◼   ► And the hard thing about it was,

00:56:45 ◼   ► actually, let me tell you a story

00:56:47 ◼   ► source of stress. I'll set the scene for you. Portland has a

00:56:49 ◼   ► lot of food carts all around the town. Down the street from my

00:56:53 ◼   ► dad's house is a food cart that serves, I think it's Filipino

00:56:57 ◼   ► food. This is seriously going somewhere relevant. My dad, you

00:57:01 ◼   ► know, walks around the neighborhood and talks to all

00:57:03 ◼   ► the people in the neighborhood and he went to the food cart and

00:57:05 ◼   ► the guy was like, hey, Steve, what's up? And they were talking

00:57:08 ◼   ► about the neighborhood. And the guy is like, oh, hey, my friend

00:57:13 ◼   ► had a question for you. My dad is like, what is it? He's like,

00:57:16 ◼   ► when's Coda 2 coming out? And my dad is like are you kidding me? That happened a lot. And

00:57:25 ◼   ► I'm glad to have that problem. I'm really glad people are excited about our products.

00:57:29 ◼   ► But it was clear to me that we took too long. And I think what people don't understand is

00:57:33 ◼   ► that we were working on one thing and then working on another thing. And they expect

00:57:37 ◼   ► from a major company -- not a major company, from any company, you know, simultaneous development.

00:57:42 ◼   ► And so people are working on transmit and people are working on Coda and that wasn't

00:57:45 ◼   ► the case for us. We finished Coda and did a bunch of updates

00:57:48 ◼   ► and got to 1.7 and we felt good about it and now let's work on

00:57:52 ◼   ► transmit 4. That took about a year and a half. For us it was a

00:57:56 ◼   ► couple years of development for everybody who used the app. It

00:57:59 ◼   ► was four years. It was intense. And people were a little

00:58:04 ◼   ► grouchy. But then that all went away once we shipped. So that's

00:58:07 ◼   ► good. >> The thing that I think is very interesting about it and

00:58:10 ◼   ► you guys are sort of trail blazers here, like unknown

00:58:14 ◼   ► territory is, I mean, you don't really have to take a look at

00:58:18 ◼   ► your books to know that if your version one was in 2007 and

00:58:23 ◼   ► version two is in 2012, that upgrade revenue is an important

00:58:29 ◼   ► part of the business of being an independent developer.

00:58:35 ◼   ► People who bought the app in 2007 and you put all this

00:58:37 ◼   ► effort into it, you need upgrade revenue from those

00:58:40 ◼   ► happy existing users.

00:58:42 ◼   ► And that's how companies like panic who is 15 years in business

00:58:46 ◼   ► now.

00:58:48 ◼   ► The way that you sustain it is you get happy users,

00:58:51 ◼   ► and especially with the pro tools type things,

00:58:55 ◼   ► and you sell upgrades.

00:58:57 ◼   ► And now you're doing it in an app store that

00:59:00 ◼   ► doesn't support paid upgrades.

00:59:03 ◼   ► That was a challenge.

00:59:04 ◼   ► So what was the solution that you guys came up with?

00:59:07 ◼   ► So we did a three prong thing.

00:59:09 ◼   ► So the first day we just decided it

00:59:11 ◼   ► be 50% off for everybody, right? And that was huge for us. In two ways. I mean, we sold a lot.

00:59:18 ◼   ► The dark side, I joke that it was six months of sales compressed into a single day. It was also

00:59:23 ◼   ► six months of tech support compressed into a single day. So those guys are not having a great

00:59:27 ◼   ► time right now. But then we sort of decided, well, just the only thing we can do is lower the

00:59:33 ◼   ► price of the app for everyone for a period of time. So our solution to that was upgrade pricing

00:59:39 ◼   ► for everyone for an indeterminate period of time.

00:59:41 ◼   ► I actually don't know how long that's gonna last.

00:59:43 ◼   ► People have asked, I have no idea.

00:59:44 ◼   ► Like a month, two months, I don't know.

00:59:46 ◼   ► But it's the only thing that I could think of.

00:59:48 ◼   ► Like what else are we gonna do?

00:59:50 ◼   ► The upgrades don't exist anymore.

00:59:53 ◼   ► Apple doesn't get upgrade revenue from anything anymore.

00:59:55 ◼   ► It's full price every time.

00:59:57 ◼   ► - Well Apple gets their upgrade revenue

00:59:59 ◼   ► when you buy a new Mac or a new iPhone.

01:00:02 ◼   ► I mean that's, and you know, they cheat.

01:00:03 ◼   ► I mean it's a good business model for them.

01:00:06 ◼   ► But everything hinges on the fact

01:00:08 ◼   ► that all of their software they don't need to charge updates

01:00:11 ◼   ► for because you're running it on a $2,000 or $1,000 or $800 phone

01:00:15 ◼   ► that you've already paid for.

01:00:16 ◼   ► >> And we've always just assumed that the only reason they don't

01:00:18 ◼   ► offer upgrades is because they don't need them.

01:00:20 ◼   ► >> Right.

01:00:21 ◼   ► >> So why would they?

01:00:22 ◼   ► But yeah, it's a strange new world now, no doubt about it.

01:00:26 ◼   ► >> But the downside of it is that -- so effectively, though,

01:00:30 ◼   ► Coda 2 is a new product in the app store.

01:00:34 ◼   ► >> Yes.

01:00:34 ◼   ► >> And Coda 1 is no longer in the app store.

01:00:37 ◼   ► >> Correct.

01:00:38 ◼   ► >> Right? Because there's no other way to do it. >> People can still redownload it. We didn't

01:00:42 ◼   ► delete the app. But it's not available for sale. >> Right. >> That was nerve-wracking.

01:00:48 ◼   ► >> Whoa, wait. So you can do that? I didn't know you could do that. >> Am I right? I hope I'm

01:00:53 ◼   ► right. Why don't I look to Marco immediately? I removed it from all the territories. So as far

01:00:59 ◼   ► as I know the app is somewhere. But you can't buy it? >> Yeah. Could you guys fix a bug?

01:01:06 ◼   ► >> We have to -- oh, God, I actually don't know. Would you get an update? I'll try it.

01:01:13 ◼   ► >> I'll go back to the office. I'll find a bug and I'll fix it.

01:01:16 ◼   ► >> Otherwise that's like a real high pressure release. This is like -- this is the release of

01:01:21 ◼   ► Coda 1. And you want to do the right thing for the customers, which is give them a stable

01:01:27 ◼   ► release that they can use forever. But on the other hand, they're kind of -- it's kind of

01:01:31 ◼   ► hard for you guys to get excited about the people who aren't buying the upgrade to Coda 2.

01:01:35 ◼   ► >> Right. We're not going to do -- the only thing I could possibly see us do is if there's

01:01:41 ◼   ► some kind of major security problem in Coda 1 or something, then maybe we consider it.

01:01:46 ◼   ► But certainly no features, certainly no development. Yeah.

01:01:50 ◼   ► >> So my favorite feature in Diet Coda, how many people here have tried Diet Coda?

01:01:54 ◼   ► >> Oh, nice. That's awesome. >> That's great.

01:01:57 ◼   ► >> Thank you. >> That's fantastic.

01:01:58 ◼   ► >> That's super cool. >> My favorite feature far and away is the

01:02:02 ◼   ► loop. I don't even know if you call it a loop. >> The super loop.

01:02:05 ◼   ► Superloop. Oh, great name. It is so good and it is so much better than the built-in iOS

01:02:13 ◼   ► text selection loop. So just to set the stage, what I mean is, you know, everybody should

01:02:19 ◼   ► know when you're in iOS and you want to place the insertion point in a text field, you press

01:02:24 ◼   ► and hold your finger and a little loop appears magnifying above it and then you can see and

01:02:30 ◼   ► precisely place it and you know it's you know it's like the size of like an okay

01:02:34 ◼   ► thing with your finger here. Yeah and it's very hard. Right. Yeah. In Coda or

01:02:40 ◼   ► Diakota it is the full width of the text editing field and it snaps to

01:02:46 ◼   ► lines. It is not just like freeform it is a completely understands the idea that

01:02:52 ◼   ► text is composed of lines and you're looking at one line at a time and you

01:02:56 ◼   ► see the full width zoomed up and there's the panache of the next and previous lines being

01:03:04 ◼   ► distorted optically. >> Right. That's my favorite feature, too.

01:03:07 ◼   ► >> Oh, it's -- >> The thing -- this is kind of a classic panic

01:03:10 ◼   ► thing because we knew we wanted to fix the problem of the insertion point. So we were

01:03:14 ◼   ► talking about full length and then I did this super quick Photoshop mockup of what the lens

01:03:19 ◼   ► looks like and handed it over to Dave to implement and without saying a word he did all the OpenGL

01:03:25 ◼   ► stuff. I never expected that. But he just -- it just was assumed

01:03:32 ◼   ► that of course you're going to magnify the lines and warp and

01:03:35 ◼   ► distort them. That was kind of an awesome moment for sure.

01:03:40 ◼   ► >> After using it, I had never really given thought to it

01:03:43 ◼   ► before. But all of a sudden, much like the effect of once

01:03:47 ◼   ► you've used a retina display and then you go back to the old one,

01:03:49 ◼   ► it's like, oh, that's terrible. Once I used the diet coda loop,

01:03:53 ◼   ► using the regular loop and any other app on the iPad feels

01:03:56 ◼   ► awful. It's so constrained. It's ruined. >> I'm glad to hear

01:03:59 ◼   ► that. I love the number of e-mails we get about I sure hope

01:04:03 ◼   ► Apple steals that. Do you really hope that? Seems kind of mean. I

01:04:09 ◼   ► understand. I totally understand. >> I really do hope

01:04:15 ◼   ► Apple steals it. >> Like in mail? >> Yeah. >> Like pull to

01:04:19 ◼   ► refresh. I feel like -- >> You think they're going to tweak it

01:04:22 ◼   ► little bit? >> I don't know. Ask my question. >> It's an inverse distortion. >> Right.

01:04:28 ◼   ► Instead of going to full width, it's a little bit of a clipped round wreck at the corner.

01:04:34 ◼   ► >> Right. >> They fixed it. The square corners are gone. >> We'll check in the next

01:04:39 ◼   ► podcast in five years and see what happens. >> What else -- I mean, any other stories

01:04:47 ◼   ► about developing an iPad version of a Mac app. >> It's a ton of -- it's just a lot of work to

01:04:53 ◼   ► think about -- I mean, there's not even really a text -- like we had to start sort of from

01:05:01 ◼   ► square one, but we knew we wanted to write a terminal so we kind of made prompt and that was

01:05:06 ◼   ► sort of a part of everything, you know. But it was a total rethink. It was like we knew we

01:05:11 ◼   ► weren't going to do the same feature set. We knew this was like, again, quick fixes on the

01:05:15 ◼   ► go, what do we need to pair it down to and how do we make it

01:05:20 ◼   ► awesome. I don't know if you saw the most experimental thing and

01:05:24 ◼   ► I'm still not sure if it was a great idea but it's been really

01:05:27 ◼   ► fun seeing people's reactions to it is the method in which you

01:05:30 ◼   ► pair your iPad with your Mac. We have this thing called air

01:05:33 ◼   ► preview that lets you use your iPad as a preview window. And I

01:05:38 ◼   ► haven't talked about this before. I became -- my weird

01:05:41 ◼   ► obsession was pairing and how I'm just tired of the pin

01:05:45 ◼   ► numbers and can we do anything cooler than pin numbers. We tried everything imaginable.

01:05:50 ◼   ► We started with knock three times on the iPad. We thought with the accelerometer or the microphone

01:05:57 ◼   ► somehow you knock three times. We got so close on that. It would trigger a gesture and all

01:06:03 ◼   ► sorts of trouble would happen. That was disappointing. We tried this and that. What we actually ended

01:06:08 ◼   ► up doing was using the camera. So you open air preview on the Mac and this psychedelic

01:06:14 ◼   ► window appears that cycles through colors and that is synced over with the iPad and you just

01:06:20 ◼   ► hold your iPad up to the screen and it just pairs, right? Because it's looking for red,

01:06:25 ◼   ► yellow, green, blue, whatever. I'm not sure it's a great idea. But it was super fun. And some

01:06:32 ◼   ► people -- there's not really any feedback which I think is a problem. Like you don't really know

01:06:36 ◼   ► if it's working or not. And so we've had people like using the wrong camera and like I've been

01:06:41 ◼   ► sitting here for 15 minutes and what's happening. But then

01:06:45 ◼   ► there's these e-mails like what the hell, man? I'm freaking out

01:06:50 ◼   ► right now. Literally people losing their minds about this.

01:06:53 ◼   ► Like what kind of sorcery? How did this -- I have no idea how

01:06:58 ◼   ► it worked. And that was my dream. That was my goal. I just

01:07:02 ◼   ► kind of wanted to freak people out. So in some ways mission

01:07:06 ◼   ► accomplished. I don't know how long it's going to stay. And

01:07:08 ◼   ► we're halfway through, oh, wait, the iPad one doesn't have a camera. So we implemented the pin

01:07:13 ◼   ► numbers. So it's like, oh, God, full circle, twice the work. Yeah. Anyways, I really

01:07:20 ◼   ► appreciate everybody trying. Yeah. Because sometimes you got to try. Yeah. >> So the other

01:07:28 ◼   ► App Store related bugaboo that you guys have navigated I think very smartly but it's still

01:07:34 ◼   ► of making the best out of a tough scenario is the fact that iCloud is only

01:07:41 ◼   ► available to App Store apps and you guys are still wisely you know with your Mac

01:07:48 ◼   ► software selling it on your own direct to customers from your website and

01:07:52 ◼   ► having the same version in the App Store for people who prefer the App Store

01:07:55 ◼   ► right which is very very common for Mac developers but that means you've got a

01:08:01 ◼   ► really cool feature. You've got this iCloud syncing so once you set up your sites, if you're

01:08:07 ◼   ► signed into iCloud, not just on another Mac now, you can go to an iPad. >> Eventually. It's not

01:08:12 ◼   ► quite there yet. And actually we bailed out at the last second. We had iCloud totally working in

01:08:17 ◼   ► dia coda. But it was not -- iCloud has been a challenge for us. But that's been tough on some

01:08:24 ◼   ► customers. And some customers don't realize that. And they want to switch versions or they want to

01:08:29 ◼   ► And also now we've had the inverse because iCloud has been a little unreliable on the

01:08:34 ◼   ► Mac. Some people are kind of bummed out that their sites are now in the cloud and that

01:08:37 ◼   ► the app is a little weird sometimes. It's been a real chat. I think we should have probably

01:08:43 ◼   ► waited until mountain lion to support iCloud. I think they're still working out some kinks.

01:08:49 ◼   ► If anybody is considering supporting iCloud, maybe wait until mountain lion. That's my

01:08:53 ◼   ► advice. But yeah, that's -- all we could do was say get it from

01:08:57 ◼   ► the Mac App Store and you get iCloud or get it from us and you

01:09:00 ◼   ► don't. >> Do you have a strong preference,

01:09:03 ◼   ► like if somebody came up to you and said I'm going to buy Coda

01:09:07 ◼   ► right now, tell me which way to buy. I want to do it the way

01:09:11 ◼   ► that makes you happier. >> I literally have a fully

01:09:14 ◼   ► neutral answer. Because I don't know that I want to load that

01:09:17 ◼   ► up. Because I basically say it's totally up to you. If you buy it

01:09:20 ◼   ► in the Mac App Store, I buy my software in the Mac App Store, I

01:09:23 ◼   ► like having all my apps in one place. I like updating. It's

01:09:26 ◼   ► very convenient. If you buy it from us, we get more money and

01:09:30 ◼   ► you'll get updates faster which is a huge issue for some people.

01:09:33 ◼   ► Right now Coda 201 exists for direct users. Apple hasn't even

01:09:37 ◼   ► started reviewing it yet. And this is really making people

01:09:40 ◼   ► angry. So now we have people that want to switch versions in

01:09:43 ◼   ► the other direction. It's kind of a disaster. But I have a

01:09:47 ◼   ► fully neutral answer. I say it's up to you. And people are like

01:09:50 ◼   ► Thanks for nothing.

01:09:51 ◼   ► Like, yeah.

01:09:52 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:09:53 ◼   ► >> And is that -- it is your honest opinion.

01:09:55 ◼   ► >> It is my honest opinion.

01:09:56 ◼   ► I mean -- >> That you wouldn't be selling the stuff

01:09:58 ◼   ► in the Mac App Store if you didn't want people to do it.

01:10:00 ◼   ► >> The thing is I like the Mac App Store.

01:10:02 ◼   ► But at the same time, it's not perfect.

01:10:04 ◼   ► So I feel like providing both is the only fair way to approach it.

01:10:08 ◼   ► But I'm totally neutral.

01:10:10 ◼   ► What are you -- you're a Mac App Store man?

01:10:15 ◼   ► >> I'm all over the place.

01:10:17 ◼   ► I do it because I feel like I love the convenience and the single source for updates. And I love

01:10:23 ◼   ► the -- especially now that I get stuff like a review -- >> Computer install. >> Yeah. Like I

01:10:29 ◼   ► get a review unit from Apple, I can go to the app store and just go I need that, I need that, I

01:10:35 ◼   ► need that. But then I get frustrated when I know the development and I know they've already

01:10:41 ◼   ► fixed the bug but I don't have it because I have the Mac app store version and have to wait.

01:10:46 ◼   ► >> It's also really surprising how few users understand that

01:10:49 ◼   ► process and how few users understand that we have no

01:10:51 ◼   ► control over the app review process. Like every day on

01:10:54 ◼   ► Twitter it's like when is Apple releasing 201? I have literally

01:10:58 ◼   ► no idea. I think the reviewers are working in the Moscone right

01:11:02 ◼   ► now. It will never be approved. So I don't know. >> Are there any

01:11:06 ◼   ► app store reviewers here in the audience? That would be the

01:11:11 ◼   ► stupidest hand raised in the history of hand raises.

01:11:15 ◼   ► - An incredibly bad idea.

01:11:16 ◼   ► I actually asked our Apple contact after we shipped,

01:11:19 ◼   ► I'm like, is there any way I can send flowers

01:11:22 ◼   ► to the reviewer, 'cause they work so hard.

01:11:24 ◼   ► - Does anybody look really nervous right now?

01:11:28 ◼   ► - They wouldn't tell me.

01:11:29 ◼   ► They were just like, we'll pass along the sentiment.

01:11:32 ◼   ► - So here's a feature that's the flip side.

01:11:35 ◼   ► So you've got iCloud syncing,

01:11:36 ◼   ► which is only in your app store.

01:11:38 ◼   ► now Mac apps in the app store have to be sandboxed. >> Oh, sandboxing. >> And we could do a whole show

01:11:45 ◼   ► about sandboxing. But one particular feature that matters for text editors is authenticated saves.

01:11:51 ◼   ► Where if you want to save a file on your computer, on your computer, not remote, on your computer,

01:11:57 ◼   ► but it requires an administrator password, in the old days you would just do a thing and a box

01:12:04 ◼   ► would come up and type your admin password and it would be saved. And now you can't do it. So

01:12:10 ◼   ► you've got this feature that the app supports and it's like you kind of feel like you've got to

01:12:15 ◼   ► warn people before they buy the app store. >> And it's going to get more and more complicated,

01:12:19 ◼   ► the warnings, right? This is only the tip of the iceberg. >> And so like the bottom line is

01:12:25 ◼   ► that there really is no ideal version of the app. Because if you buy the one from panic.com you

01:12:31 ◼   ► can do authenticated saves and maybe do other stuff that the sandboxing is -- >> You don't have

01:12:35 ◼   ► iCloud and you don't have -- yeah. It's an interesting time. >> It's a very interesting time.

01:12:40 ◼   ► >> It's a very interesting time. Yeah. >> Well, that's about it for me. >> Awesome. >> I am so

01:12:45 ◼   ► glad you're here. I want to do some thanks. First I want to thank Media Temple once again. >>

01:12:51 ◼   ► Yes. >> We literally would not be here if they were here. >> Yeah. >> I'm not sure if they

01:12:57 ◼   ► >> We literally would not be here if they hadn't generously sponsored this show. So go to

01:13:04 ◼   ► their website, sign up with groover, you save 25% on anything you buy from them, any kind of

01:13:09 ◼   ► service and you're entered to win not just a MacBook Pro, the retina MacBook Pro. >> That's

01:13:15 ◼   ► amazing. >> Unbelievable. Thank you so much. I want to thank field notes, my friend, there's a

01:13:22 ◼   ► table full of field notes over there. I'm using one right now. I have run this entire show

01:13:26 ◼   ► from there, the finest notebooks in the world. They are free for

01:13:31 ◼   ► everybody. Are there any left? They are free for anybody. That's

01:13:34 ◼   ► what they're there for. You can just start throwing them at

01:13:36 ◼   ► people. I don't know. But please take them. They're the best

01:13:40 ◼   ► notebooks in the world. Thank you to Field Notes. I want to

01:13:43 ◼   ► thank Mule Radio Syndicate. Absolutely just as important as

01:13:55 ◼   ► media temple sponsorship. There is absolutely no way I would have gotten this thing together if

01:13:58 ◼   ► it wasn't that I was working with mule. Jim ray, Mike Monteiro, Katie Gillum and especially our

01:14:07 ◼   ► sound guy who used to be right there but he's wandered away. Caleb Sexton back there with the

01:14:13 ◼   ► -- he's got a very handsome beard. But Caleb does the audio. He does it on the weekly show too,

01:14:20 ◼   ► the regular ones and if you have any audio complaints I guarantee

01:14:25 ◼   ► you it is either my fault or more likely John Moltz's fault.

01:14:32 ◼   ► And he takes absolute crap audio and makes it sound so much

01:14:36 ◼   ► better. We're working on it. But everything that's good about the

01:14:38 ◼   ► sound of the show is all Caleb. And I thank him for that. I want

01:14:42 ◼   ► to thank Black Pixel. Our friends at Black Pixel. I want

01:14:48 ◼   ► They've done the Mule Radio iPhone app that lets you listen to all the Mule Radio shows, all the

01:14:55 ◼   ► podcasts. It's a free app. The shows are free. And it's a beautiful app. It is just great. If

01:15:02 ◼   ► you don't already have it on your iPhone, shame on you. You should get it right now. It's a

01:15:05 ◼   ► great app. So thanks to Black Pixel. I want to thank Jesse Char. >> Yay. Pacific Helm. >>

01:15:15 ◼   ► from Pacific helm.com. Pacific helm is a small iOS developer shop. If your problem is you have an

01:15:25 ◼   ► idea for an app, you're developing an app, but what you want is like a killer Apple/panic style

01:15:32 ◼   ► hyper attention to detail where some guy is going to sweat over two pixels for three days,

01:15:37 ◼   ► Pacific helm is a type of consulting firm you want to talk to. But she organized -- Jesse

01:15:43 ◼   ► organized this event. And again, it would not have happened

01:15:47 ◼   ► otherwise. Cable, my thanks to you for joining me. >> Thank you

01:15:51 ◼   ► for having me. >> Panic.com. >> Thank you so much. Thank you.

01:15:55 ◼   ► And now I've listened to the talk show. >> And last of all I

01:16:04 ◼   ► want to thank all of you, everybody who is here. Thank you

01:16:06 ◼   ► so much. It is absolutely a thrill to do this in front of

01:16:10 ◼   ► you. Everybody out there who listens to the show, thank you

01:16:13 ◼   ► so much. I can't thank all of you enough for being here. I had

01:16:17 ◼   ► a lot of fun. I hope you did too. >> That was awesome. Thank

01:16:19 ◼   ► you for listening. [ Applause ]

01:16:21 ◼   ► (audience applauding)

01:16:25 ◼   ► [ Silence ]