The Talk Show

00:00:00 ◼   ► Where's our Guinness?

00:00:02 ◼   ► Oh, Bulmer's. Awesome, awesome.

00:00:05 ◼   ► You remember the last time I did a live talk show?

00:00:09 ◼   ► I think it was the last time I did a live one. It was the one at WWDC.

00:00:12 ◼   ► And it was me and Cable Sasser from Panic.

00:00:15 ◼   ► Oh, I sat on something. Jesus Christ.

00:00:17 ◼   ► That's your present, man.

00:00:19 ◼   ► And we're like, I don't know, 10, 15 minutes in and it's going...

00:00:23 ◼   ► I mean, Cable's great, so the thing was the dynamite.

00:00:25 ◼   ► And my phone goes off in my pocket.

00:00:28 ◼   ► I thought, everybody knows I'm doing this. Who the hell would text me?

00:00:31 ◼   ► And of course, I took it out and did the slide in front of the...

00:00:35 ◼   ► It's my wife saying that they closed the bar.

00:00:40 ◼   ► - Jackass. - Disaster.

00:00:43 ◼   ► And that her and Mike Montero were going to kick my ass.

00:00:46 ◼   ► So I interrupted the show and had them reopen the bar.

00:00:49 ◼   ► Apparently they did it as like a courtesy to me and Cable to...

00:00:54 ◼   ► Hey, we don't want anybody quiet.

00:00:56 ◼   ► I get the feeling it's not going to be a problem in Ireland.

00:00:58 ◼   ► No, I think we're good.

00:00:59 ◼   ► The bar's still open, right?

00:01:00 ◼   ► Okay, good.

00:01:01 ◼   ► Sweet.

00:01:02 ◼   ► Michael Lobb, good to see you.

00:01:05 ◼   ► There is a tornado warning in Dublin.

00:01:08 ◼   ► This is actually not... This is totally true.

00:01:10 ◼   ► This is totally true, I'm told.

00:01:12 ◼   ► Is this a normal thing?

00:01:13 ◼   ► Yeah, is this... How common are tornadoes?

00:01:15 ◼   ► First time.

00:01:17 ◼   ► Alright, first time.

00:01:20 ◼   ► That's why I didn't show up on my weather app.

00:01:22 ◼   ► What do we do?

00:01:24 ◼   ► Who's got a flight tonight?

00:01:26 ◼   ► I don't think you're going anywhere.

00:01:28 ◼   ► Really, these are the pauses you were doing during your talk, they were driving me crazy.

00:01:38 ◼   ► I'm like, "Is he, has he lost the thread, is it dramatic?"

00:01:48 ◼   ► And you were solid, but it was like, every time I was looking over at Amy Jane going like,

00:01:52 ◼   ► "It could be over!"

00:01:54 ◼   ► You know, and you guys were sitting in front and I could see you and I could tell that you were...

00:02:00 ◼   ► "Oh my god, he lost it. It's gone. He's no slides. Totally screwed."

00:02:05 ◼   ► It did not happen. I did not lose, like you said, you called it losing the thread.

00:02:12 ◼   ► I did not, but have you ever seen anybody lose the thread during a talk?

00:02:15 ◼   ► I've done it. I'm up there and I'm up there and I do my slide and I get the next one. I'm like...

00:02:18 ◼   ► I have no idea what I'm talking about.

00:02:21 ◼   ► Interesting segue about random thing.

00:02:24 ◼   ► To me, when I give a talk, I have a series of points I want to make.

00:02:28 ◼   ► And I do this thing now where I do write the whole thing out in some form where I could just read it,

00:02:34 ◼   ► but that's just to get all the thoughts out.

00:02:36 ◼   ► But then I have these bullet points, and I know that there's a connection from this one to the next one.

00:02:42 ◼   ► And the pauses really weren't, "Oh shit, what's my next point?"

00:02:45 ◼   ► It's, "I know what my next point is, but have I made all the jokes I wanted to make on this one?"

00:02:50 ◼   ► Right, right, right. They were killing me. It was killing me.

00:02:53 ◼   ► I did forget one joke, and this is great, having the talk show here, I can do it,

00:03:00 ◼   ► is the one joke I wanted to make, and I thought of it literally like 10 minutes before I was

00:03:05 ◼   ► going to go on, I thought, "Oh, that is perfect. It's a perfect joke," was towards the end of my talk

00:03:10 ◼   ► and I was talking about my problems with the word uncompromising.

00:03:14 ◼   ► And what I wanted to say is, I was going to say, "I'm going to steal Michael's shtick and say,

00:03:20 ◼   ► When you say uncompromising, I hear, I don't know what the fuck I believe in.

00:03:27 ◼   ► It's a good shtick. It's a very good shtick.

00:03:29 ◼   ► It is. It works for me.

00:03:31 ◼   ► So one of the things is we could actually talk Apple at the conference.

00:03:37 ◼   ► Oh, my God. Let's do that.

00:03:38 ◼   ► Let's actually do it.

00:03:39 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:03:39 ◼   ► It's not news news.

00:03:41 ◼   ► I think it was maybe like 10 days ago, but I've been in an airplane and stuff.

00:03:46 ◼   ► But Ron Johnson, former head of Apple retail, left like two years ago, became the CEO of

00:03:52 ◼   ► JCPenney, a department, US department store chain, and he got fired like ten years ago.

00:03:59 ◼   ► How would you describe JCPenney? I suspect for all of our European

00:04:03 ◼   ► audience members, they probably don't really know.

00:04:07 ◼   ► JCPenney, your department store, nothing in particular, no, what was that?

00:04:11 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly. So nothing particularly noteworthy about it.

00:04:14 ◼   ► Suffering because it was sort of in the price war and they brought Ron in to, you know, sprinkle some Apple magic on top of it.

00:04:21 ◼   ► And then nowhere near as cheap as Walmart.

00:04:24 ◼   ► Right.

00:04:24 ◼   ► And doesn't look it is more upscale, but not truly upscale, not like a...

00:04:30 ◼   ► And again, I don't know which change you guys know, but like Macy's or Bloomingdale's or something like that.

00:04:34 ◼   ► Nordstrom's, you guys probably don't know, but Nordstrom's is like the best.

00:04:39 ◼   ► Not it's like in between like they didn't know if they were discounted. They didn't know if they were nice

00:04:43 ◼   ► The other big thing that they did and they were almost famous for it in the retailing and this is stuff

00:04:49 ◼   ► I learned after Ron Johnson took the job, but the JC penny had in all seriousness like

00:04:55 ◼   ► 275 sales a year

00:04:58 ◼   ► Like so that's practically like every single weekday. There would be a new sale where this is 40% off and that's 30% off

00:05:08 ◼   ► And that the only people who effectively shop there were people who were looking for barbers.

00:05:13 ◼   ► So what do you think...

00:05:16 ◼   ► I have so many questions about why do you think he left to go there in the first place?

00:05:20 ◼   ► I didn't work with Ram when I was at Apple at all.

00:05:22 ◼   ► I had like a couple meetings. Really, really smart guy.

00:05:24 ◼   ► But I mean the story I tell myself is it's just like you've kind of like built the retail giant

00:05:30 ◼   ► that is the Apple store.

00:05:32 ◼   ► And it was like time to go do something different, right?

00:05:34 ◼   ► So, I mean, there was no scuttlebutt about like,

00:05:38 ◼   ► hey, there was a problem there.

00:05:39 ◼   ► He gave a lot of advanced warning to Apple.

00:05:42 ◼   ► It seemed like a graceful transition.

00:05:44 ◼   ► And he suddenly wanted to go like, you know,

00:05:45 ◼   ► revive JCPenney.

00:05:47 ◼   ► Also, JCPenney is based in Texas,

00:05:49 ◼   ► which I think is where he was from.

00:05:50 ◼   ► So it was closer to home as well.

00:05:53 ◼   ► - The other thing too, I guess, just,

00:05:54 ◼   ► I mean, probably a lot of people know,

00:05:56 ◼   ► but biographically or like job career-wise,

00:05:58 ◼   ► before Apple, he was at Target,

00:06:00 ◼   ► which was very successful.

00:06:01 ◼   ► So it was really, it wasn't just the success of Apple.

00:06:04 ◼   ► It was like two straight retail successes, Target and then Apple.

00:06:08 ◼   ► And then it was just like, I mean, we were talking about this before.

00:06:12 ◼   ► It's like it's so what happened, right, is one of my my my theories is that

00:06:16 ◼   ► he didn't have the product that was going to walk people into the stores.

00:06:20 ◼   ► Right. JC Penney, what do you know about it?

00:06:22 ◼   ► If you don't know anything about it. But it was like, what is the thing?

00:06:24 ◼   ► You would go to an Apple store because you want an iPhone,

00:06:26 ◼   ► you want an iPad or whatever it was.

00:06:28 ◼   ► He didn't have that thing, that compelling thing to get you to walk in the front door.

00:06:32 ◼   ► So that was one of the things that I think was one of the things he was just

00:06:35 ◼   ► screwed right out of the gate was he didn't have that compelling reason.

00:06:37 ◼   ► Because then I think you can you could say that that's the Apple retail store is

00:06:42 ◼   ► all starts from that foundation of here's what we have these great products

00:06:47 ◼   ► that we're very proud of and that people want and we'll build everything else

00:06:52 ◼   ► around that. Yeah. I mean, if you go into an Apple store there, famously,

00:06:56 ◼   ► this is well known as a built after museums. Right.

00:06:58 ◼   ► I've talked I think I talked about this at the last old

00:07:01 ◼   ► They're built after museums. They're big, huge, wide open spaces.

00:07:04 ◼   ► Butcher block table.

00:07:05 ◼   ► Everything is about being honoring the product, right?

00:07:08 ◼   ► And walking in there.

00:07:09 ◼   ► It's just museum to the art that they're building out there.

00:07:11 ◼   ► And it's like, how do you do that when you don't actually have that product?

00:07:14 ◼   ► You got to like, chill off, right?

00:07:16 ◼   ► And that's that's it seems like one of the things he was struggling with.

00:07:19 ◼   ► Target is is sort of the opposite direction, I think,

00:07:25 ◼   ► because Target's like the sort of store where you go to buy everything. Right.

00:07:28 ◼   ► Target you buy everything from paper towels to a new basketball.

00:07:34 ◼   ► I mean, they even sell groceries and stuff there now.

00:07:37 ◼   ► And so it's sort of the opposite problem.

00:07:39 ◼   ► They don't really have to focus on anything.

00:07:41 ◼   ► But I feel like a JC Penney's where they really close for the most part.

00:07:45 ◼   ► But they don't have any unique thing.

00:07:48 ◼   ► You get the same pair of Levi's there you could get at the other one.

00:07:51 ◼   ► Yeah. But whatever he was doing, I mean, do you think you had a you think they gave

00:07:54 ◼   ► him enough time? No, I don't.

00:07:56 ◼   ► I feel like what happened, the really weird thing,

00:07:59 ◼   ► and they weren't doing well, it is true.

00:08:00 ◼   ► I mean, and I guess, you know,

00:08:01 ◼   ► eventually you've got to pull the plug on a CEO change.

00:08:05 ◼   ► But I think the thing that's so bizarre

00:08:07 ◼   ► is that they fired him and replaced him

00:08:10 ◼   ► with the guy who was there before.

00:08:12 ◼   ► So like, you know, effectively they're bored.

00:08:15 ◼   ► It wasn't just,

00:08:16 ◼   ► all right, we'll hire you.

00:08:19 ◼   ► When they hired him two years ago,

00:08:20 ◼   ► we're going to try something new.

00:08:21 ◼   ► We're going to buy into your radical ideas

00:08:24 ◼   ► to really change this company because we need change,

00:08:26 ◼   ► because we're not doing that well.

00:08:27 ◼   ► And then two years later, they're like,

00:08:29 ◼   ► let's just go back to where we were.

00:08:30 ◼   ► Which they know sucked.

00:08:32 ◼   ► - Right, right, right.

00:08:33 ◼   ► The existing state of sucked.

00:08:35 ◼   ► - We like our old sucked better.

00:08:37 ◼   ► (audience laughing)

00:08:39 ◼   ► - Well, I mean, the stock was down like what,

00:08:40 ◼   ► 51% or something like that?

00:08:42 ◼   ► I mean, so disaster, right?

00:08:43 ◼   ► But still, it's like how long did it take Apple

00:08:45 ◼   ► to get back to a happy state?

00:08:47 ◼   ► It was, you know, he came back in '97,

00:08:49 ◼   ► stock was still the same in 2002, right?

00:08:52 ◼   ► So they gave him a long leash.

00:08:54 ◼   ► Right, and that's a very good comparison.

00:08:56 ◼   ► Like how long does it take to turn around a big company that's gotten itself in a

00:09:00 ◼   ► deep rut? And Apple is a great example.

00:09:03 ◼   ► So two years after Steve Jobs came back, it was ninety nine.

00:09:06 ◼   ► Right. So they're still two years away from the iPod.

00:09:10 ◼   ► Right.

00:09:12 ◼   ► No iTunes.

00:09:14 ◼   ► I mean, effectively we were just selling Macs that were blue instead of beige.

00:09:18 ◼   ► Right. I mean, and, you know, Mac OS X was still two years out.

00:09:22 ◼   ► It was in the works, but, you know.

00:09:23 ◼   ► It's not the branding campaign, the think different thing was going.

00:09:26 ◼   ► He was setting it up.

00:09:27 ◼   ► But I mean, this is something that was amazing to me about Apple is you go and

00:09:30 ◼   ► like, I linked, I wrote about this a while ago.

00:09:32 ◼   ► This is a '97 video.

00:09:33 ◼   ► Remember that he does Q&A after one of the events?

00:09:36 ◼   ► Steve was doing Q&A after one of the events.

00:09:38 ◼   ► And he sits down and he answers questions and they're hostile.

00:09:43 ◼   ► The audience is hostile because he's just killed OpenDoc and

00:09:46 ◼   ► he's just, it's been a bloodbath.

00:09:48 ◼   ► So he's up there, ask me whatever you want.

00:09:50 ◼   ► And he sits there and he spends, just total ad hoc,

00:09:53 ◼   ► spends an hour and a half answering questions.

00:09:56 ◼   ► And if you go from now and you look at that talk,

00:09:58 ◼   ► you know all of the things he was thinking about.

00:10:01 ◼   ► He's like, yeah, it's going to be networked.

00:10:02 ◼   ► It's going to be something like a cloud or this sort of thing.

00:10:04 ◼   ► He was really sketching it out and then did it

00:10:07 ◼   ► for the next 10 years.

00:10:08 ◼   ► But it really took that long to get there.

00:10:10 ◼   ► Yeah, it's an amazing talk because in hindsight,

00:10:13 ◼   ► you're like, I can't believe he's talking about this in 1997

00:10:15 ◼   ► because he's describing the iPad and iCloud of today.

00:10:20 ◼   ► But it really took that long to get there.

00:10:23 ◼   ► And I know that JC Penney is not exactly

00:10:26 ◼   ► an apples to oranges comparison with Apple computer, right?

00:10:30 ◼   ► Sorry.

00:10:31 ◼   ► But obviously it's a very different business.

00:10:34 ◼   ► But I still think, though, that a lot of those things that take so long,

00:10:38 ◼   ► it takes long in any case.

00:10:40 ◼   ► And brand awareness is definitely one of them.

00:10:43 ◼   ► And that's the thing that JC Penney was fighting,

00:10:45 ◼   ► was this idea that it was nobody's favorite store.

00:10:49 ◼   ► And to change that, I think two years is not enough time.

00:10:52 ◼   ► - Yeah, I totally agree with that.

00:10:53 ◼   ► And I think that's what you were saying,

00:10:54 ◼   ► but they were, I mean, again, someone got,

00:10:56 ◼   ► to me, putting back the old CEO in,

00:10:59 ◼   ► is there's a political battle that someone won.

00:11:00 ◼   ► They're like, "Hey, bring Frank back,"

00:11:02 ◼   ► 'cause the old suck was so much better.

00:11:04 ◼   ► - It makes me think, I mean, again, I have no idea.

00:11:06 ◼   ► It could be totally wrong, but it makes me think

00:11:07 ◼   ► that there was somebody who never

00:11:08 ◼   ► wanted Ron Johnson there in the first place.

00:11:10 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:11:11 ◼   ► - So here's a question I've gotten

00:11:13 ◼   ► from a surprising number of readers by email,

00:11:17 ◼   ► and I don't know how to answer it

00:11:18 ◼   ► because I'm not in that game.

00:11:21 ◼   ► But you might have an insight.

00:11:22 ◼   ► Do you think there's any chance now

00:11:24 ◼   ► that Ron Johnson would go back to Apple?

00:11:26 ◼   ► Apple actually doesn't have a retail chief right now.

00:11:28 ◼   ► - I have no insider knowledge, but it makes total sense.

00:11:31 ◼   ► Again, the exit seemed like it was clean.

00:11:33 ◼   ► It didn't seem like there was any sort of battle

00:11:35 ◼   ► or any sort of forestalling.

00:11:37 ◼   ► (audience laughing)

00:11:40 ◼   ► But it seemed like it was clean.

00:11:42 ◼   ► So given that the other guy had flamed out,

00:11:44 ◼   ► it seems like it wouldn't surprise me.

00:11:47 ◼   ► Right, and I do think in general it is unusual for someone like once you go

00:11:52 ◼   ► to CEO, once your title is CEO it's pretty rare that you're ever going to get

00:11:56 ◼   ► another title other than maybe chairman or president or something, you know, a bit of...

00:12:00 ◼   ► you don't go back to being senior VP

00:12:03 ◼   ► except Apple's sort of a weird company where I feel like Apple, and they've been so

00:12:07 ◼   ► successful that Apple senior vice presidents are sort of on par with CEOs

00:12:11 ◼   ► at other companies.

00:12:13 ◼   ► It wouldn't surprise me, but again it's like what is, why did he leave in the

00:12:16 ◼   ► first place? What's the big challenge to Apple retail right now? I mean, it's everywhere.

00:12:20 ◼   ► Right. And they have like a sort of formula, you know?

00:12:24 ◼   ► Yeah, they do, right. So what is that next thing that you're going to go and do? Is that

00:12:30 ◼   ► a tornado?

00:12:31 ◼   ► [Laughter]

00:12:32 ◼   ► Okay.

00:12:33 ◼   ► Let me take a break. I want to thank the first of our sponsors. And that is amazing. I honestly

00:12:40 ◼   ► did not know this before we set up this talk, but it's our friends at Panic.

00:12:45 ◼   ► We've got Neven Murgen here and their new app, Status Board.

00:12:51 ◼   ► Now I showed you this, and this is the truth, you guys could think I'm full of it or not,

00:12:55 ◼   ► but I showed this to you before I knew that they were sponsoring the show, and you almost

00:12:59 ◼   ► shit your pants.

00:13:00 ◼   ► Well, at first I said, "Oh, they did Dashboard, that's so cool."

00:13:05 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, but that's sort of what it is.

00:13:08 ◼   ► knows, a long time ago, Panic published a blog post where they showed their little internal

00:13:12 ◼   ► in their office the status board and it showed like bug counts or like unread messages in

00:13:16 ◼   ► the support queue. Or project state. Right. Really cool and of course it's Panic so it

00:13:21 ◼   ► was beautiful. And everybody loved it. Well then they had the brilliant idea of saying

00:13:24 ◼   ► hey we made this thing, everybody loves it, let's make it a product. And they did and

00:13:27 ◼   ► it's this great new iPad app that lets you make your own status boards. And it's sort

00:13:32 ◼   ► of like Lego-like widgets where you can just pick these precise things like one of them

00:13:37 ◼   ► you can hook up to an email account or one of them you can hook up to a Twitter feed

00:13:42 ◼   ► and you have Twitter come in. You can get obvious stuff like weather, stuff like that.

00:13:49 ◼   ► And it's extensible. They've got – if you're a nerd, if you want to nerd out, you can hook

00:13:52 ◼   ► it up to any – almost any arbitrary thing that could be graphed or staticized with a

00:13:58 ◼   ► little bit of coding and work. But the preset stuff alone is great.

00:14:03 ◼   ► - Right, stunning.

00:14:04 ◼   ► I have a question for you on that.

00:14:05 ◼   ► So we've talked about the eye, right?

00:14:08 ◼   ► Does the product have sort of the,

00:14:10 ◼   ► do you have the eye to actually be able to identify

00:14:12 ◼   ► a beautiful product?

00:14:13 ◼   ► And outside of Apple, which companies do you think

00:14:17 ◼   ► have the ability to build Apple quality products?

00:14:20 ◼   ► Obviously, Panic is one of those,

00:14:22 ◼   ► but what are the other ones that you think are like,

00:14:23 ◼   ► you're like, whoa, it's almost like--

00:14:25 ◼   ► - Well, let me finish the sponsorship.

00:14:26 ◼   ► - Oh, sorry, go, keep going.

00:14:27 ◼   ► (audience laughing)

00:14:29 ◼   ► It's a great sponsorship.

00:14:32 ◼   ► No, it's super simple. I'm almost done.

00:14:35 ◼   ► But the drag and drop stuff that you can do that's preset is fantastic.

00:14:38 ◼   ► The stuff you can customize makes it amazing.

00:14:41 ◼   ► And it runs on the iPad and it looks great and maybe that's what you want to do

00:14:44 ◼   ► is set it up on an iPad and run it, but it also does AirPlay video out.

00:14:48 ◼   ► So you... That's not a TV. I thought that was a TV.

00:14:51 ◼   ► Well, that's a TV.

00:14:53 ◼   ► You can hook it up to a giant 60-foot plasma thing in your office or your home

00:14:57 ◼   ► or whatever and have, you know, a totally cool, absolutely panic-style thing.

00:15:02 ◼   ► - Gorgeous.

00:15:03 ◼   ► - In the App Store, you go to find out more

00:15:05 ◼   ► at their website, panic.com/statusboard.

00:15:09 ◼   ► I'll bet if you just go to panic.com on the homepage,

00:15:11 ◼   ► there's a big--

00:15:12 ◼   ► - I guess so.

00:15:13 ◼   ► - Probably really cool animation too.

00:15:15 ◼   ► This guy's make me sick.

00:15:16 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:15:17 ◼   ► It's 10 bucks in the App Store

00:15:19 ◼   ► and it is an amazing, amazing deal, I think.

00:15:21 ◼   ► And a great app.

00:15:23 ◼   ► Who else?

00:15:23 ◼   ► Who else has that eye?

00:15:25 ◼   ► - Lauren Brikter.

00:15:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, Lauren Brikter definitely has the eye.

00:15:28 ◼   ► That's the guy who letter pressed and pulled a refresh.

00:15:31 ◼   ► Who else though?

00:15:33 ◼   ► No pressure.

00:15:34 ◼   ► - Are you hiring?

00:15:35 ◼   ► (audience laughs)

00:15:36 ◼   ► - Is there anyone here?

00:15:37 ◼   ► - I always worry that he's building a team.

00:15:39 ◼   ► - I don't know.

00:15:40 ◼   ► - You know, how about the Tapbot guys?

00:15:47 ◼   ► - Oh, Tapbot, definitely.

00:15:48 ◼   ► - Right, and theirs is obviously

00:15:50 ◼   ► super strongly opinionated, you know?

00:15:52 ◼   ► - Right, right, right.

00:15:55 ◼   ► - But they know, like they have their aesthetic

00:15:57 ◼   ► in their head and they know,

00:15:59 ◼   ► they know when they've got it.

00:16:00 ◼   ► Right, right.

00:16:02 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:16:04 ◼   ► It's a short list though.

00:16:05 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:16:05 ◼   ► You're just putting me on the spot here.

00:16:07 ◼   ► Twitteriffic.

00:16:08 ◼   ► Twitteriffic, that's a good one.

00:16:09 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

00:16:11 ◼   ► Iconfactory.

00:16:12 ◼   ► Iconfactory, also solid.

00:16:13 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:16:15 ◼   ► Craig Hockenberry.

00:16:16 ◼   ► Yeah, just throw names out.

00:16:17 ◼   ► Let's see.

00:16:18 ◼   ► OmniGroup.

00:16:19 ◼   ► Ooh, see, I would say OmniGroup makes great software.

00:16:23 ◼   ► No, OmniGroup makes great software,

00:16:24 ◼   ► but I don't look at it like-- when we talk about the eye,

00:16:27 ◼   ► it's a certain look of it.

00:16:29 ◼   ► And to me, OmniGroup software does not jump out in that way.

00:16:32 ◼   ► Right.

00:16:32 ◼   ► It's great software, but does it have that final degree

00:16:36 ◼   ► of polish?

00:16:36 ◼   ► You know the Panic Eyes.

00:16:37 ◼   ► It's like, his cable's like-- he's just sitting there working

00:16:41 ◼   ► on that one round corner for like a weekend,

00:16:44 ◼   ► just to get it just right.

00:16:46 ◼   ► Briktor, yes.

00:16:47 ◼   ► Letterpress.

00:16:48 ◼   ► Great.

00:16:50 ◼   ► Yes.

00:16:51 ◼   ► Yes.

00:16:52 ◼   ► Sofa is a good example, and I think that's exactly--

00:16:55 ◼   ► and this is this lingo that Michael and I use,

00:16:58 ◼   ► talking about the eye and SOFA is a great example where they had Kaleidoscope and then

00:17:04 ◼   ► what else did SOFA have?

00:17:05 ◼   ► Versions, right?

00:17:06 ◼   ► The version control app.

00:17:08 ◼   ► And that is, that's super, that's actually a super panicky thing to do because Panic,

00:17:13 ◼   ► even though they make these friendly, very, very attractive apps, some of them are super

00:17:19 ◼   ► nerdy like FTP apps, right?

00:17:21 ◼   ► I mean, they've been working on FTP apps since like 1997.

00:17:24 ◼   ► Super nerdy thing.

00:17:25 ◼   ► File transfer to Unix servers, right?

00:17:27 ◼   ► and they, let's do it really, really pretty.

00:17:30 ◼   ► Versions is a great example of that sort of thing.

00:17:32 ◼   ► Let's take one of the nerdiest technologies in the world,

00:17:35 ◼   ► version control, and let's make it really look good.

00:17:38 ◼   ► And you look at other GUI version control apps.

00:17:42 ◼   ► I mean, I'm not saying they're bad,

00:17:43 ◼   ► but they look like command line app brought to life.

00:17:47 ◼   ► - Exactly.

00:17:48 ◼   ► - Tower.

00:17:49 ◼   ► - Tower is a great app.

00:17:51 ◼   ► That's another one that is the same sort of approach.

00:17:56 ◼   ► But the Sofa guys are interesting,

00:17:57 ◼   ► What struck me was, and I think they're still on the hunt,

00:18:00 ◼   ► but the guys who've, the acquisitions that Facebook has made

00:18:04 ◼   ► over the last two years or so have largely been specifically

00:18:09 ◼   ► about what you and I call the eye.

00:18:11 ◼   ► Mike Madison, the push-pop press guys

00:18:14 ◼   ► and the Al Gore book they made is exactly like that.

00:18:16 ◼   ► And you can tell that they had a lot to do

00:18:19 ◼   ► with the Facebook home thing,

00:18:20 ◼   ► 'cause Mike Madison's thing is this aversion to buttons.

00:18:24 ◼   ► He really wants, he really thinks

00:18:26 ◼   ► the whole touchscreen thing, it should have as few buttons as possible.

00:18:30 ◼   ► And so the Facebook home thing doesn't have any buttons.

00:18:33 ◼   ► Like it's actually in or out, you think about it, you're like, no, of course not.

00:18:36 ◼   ► No, it doesn't.

00:18:37 ◼   ► You just drag your little avatar around.

00:18:38 ◼   ► I mean, maybe that counts as a button.

00:18:40 ◼   ► Probably.

00:18:41 ◼   ► I haven't used it yet.

00:18:42 ◼   ► I haven't seen it yet.

00:18:43 ◼   ► But you don't just tap it.

00:18:44 ◼   ► Everything is motion.

00:18:45 ◼   ► No.

00:18:46 ◼   ► Haven't heard of them.

00:18:47 ◼   ► I haven't heard of them.

00:18:48 ◼   ► Double twist.

00:18:49 ◼   ► Double twist?

00:18:50 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:18:51 ◼   ► I haven't heard of it.

00:18:52 ◼   ► Double twist?

00:18:56 ◼   ► No, I wouldn't know.

00:18:58 ◼   ► It's a short list.

00:19:00 ◼   ► It's a short list.

00:19:01 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't know.

00:19:02 ◼   ► Delicious.

00:19:06 ◼   ► Oh, yeah, Will Shipley.

00:19:07 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

00:19:08 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:19:10 ◼   ► I hate to say it.

00:19:11 ◼   ► No!

00:19:12 ◼   ► I hate to say it.

00:19:13 ◼   ► I hate to give him the credit, but yeah, yeah.

00:19:15 ◼   ► Yeah, definitely.

00:19:16 ◼   ► It's good.

00:19:17 ◼   ► Yeah, he's good.

00:19:18 ◼   ► And the character.

00:19:19 ◼   ► And I actually feel, and I don't know,

00:19:21 ◼   ► this is not gossip or stuff,

00:19:24 ◼   ► but I do think that that was sort of part of it

00:19:28 ◼   ► is that Will Shipley is, you know.

00:19:29 ◼   ► - Will Shipley. - Yeah.

00:19:30 ◼   ► But I actually think that that was sort of

00:19:34 ◼   ► some of the stress inside the Omni Group when he was there,

00:19:36 ◼   ► 'cause he was a co-founder and he was there for a long time.

00:19:39 ◼   ► But I feel like he wanted to go

00:19:42 ◼   ► in this delicious direction visually,

00:19:44 ◼   ► this exuberant visual design.

00:19:47 ◼   ► - Right, right, right.

00:19:47 ◼   ► And it didn't really fit with the rest of the way the Omni Group wanted to make stuff,

00:19:52 ◼   ► which was a little bit more straightforward.

00:19:55 ◼   ► Right.

00:19:55 ◼   ► I don't know, exuberant is the word that comes to mind.

00:19:57 ◼   ► Yeah, absolutely.

00:19:58 ◼   ► So back to Apple, let's go back to Apple.

00:20:03 ◼   ► Here's the other thing I wanted to talk to you about.

00:20:05 ◼   ► So there have been no product releases from Apple this year, right?

00:20:10 ◼   ► Yeah, this is the one that...

00:20:11 ◼   ► April 14th.

00:20:12 ◼   ► April 14th.

00:20:13 ◼   ► What is the...

00:20:14 ◼   ► Actually, there's two things that worry me.

00:20:15 ◼   ► There's the fact that it's April 14th

00:20:17 ◼   ► and nothing has come out that we're sitting here

00:20:18 ◼   ► and gossiping up about at Ool.

00:20:21 ◼   ► But the other one that worries me

00:20:22 ◼   ► is the Buzz Machine about the next thing,

00:20:24 ◼   ► whatever that might be.

00:20:26 ◼   ► We're not talking about either.

00:20:27 ◼   ► I mean, there's the watch, but everyone kind of goes,

00:20:28 ◼   ► "Watch, okay, maybe."

00:20:31 ◼   ► But it's like, to me, there's this dearth

00:20:33 ◼   ► of like gossip going on right now that worries me.

00:20:36 ◼   ► What do you think?

00:20:37 ◼   ► - I don't know.

00:20:39 ◼   ► I think it's definitely curious.

00:20:42 ◼   ► I think part of it is

00:20:44 ◼   ► They really do, like they generally, I think, want to have stuff on a somewhat annual schedule.

00:20:51 ◼   ► And they like having a new version of the iPhone every year.

00:20:55 ◼   ► iPad last three years every March, is that right?

00:20:59 ◼   ► Last two years?

00:21:00 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:21:01 ◼   ► I think the first one, the original event was at the end of February, but it didn't

00:21:04 ◼   ► come out to the first week of April.

00:21:05 ◼   ► Three years in a row.

00:21:06 ◼   ► Roughly March.

00:21:07 ◼   ► Crickets right now.

00:21:10 ◼   ► But what they did last year was they had this weird one where they did one six months after

00:21:14 ◼   ► the previous one. Right. And I do feel that at a certain level that it's just as simple

00:21:19 ◼   ► as well in general, we'd like it to be annual. But when we're ready, we're ready, you know,

00:21:24 ◼   ► and if the one phone took 18 months and threw them off this June schedule, well, so be it,

00:21:29 ◼   ► we're going to wait till we get it right. And if they also could do a new generation

00:21:34 ◼   ► iPad just six months later after the other one, well, they're not going to wait. Why

00:21:39 ◼   ► because their competitors aren't going to wait.

00:21:43 ◼   ► But in hindsight, as we keep going

00:21:45 ◼   ► and there's been no new iPad in March,

00:21:48 ◼   ► it makes me think that one of the reasons they put that iPad

00:21:52 ◼   ► with the new dock connector out last year

00:21:54 ◼   ► was that they knew it was going to be on the market longer.

00:21:58 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't know.

00:22:00 ◼   ► It's curious to me.

00:22:02 ◼   ► The other worry that I have is I think the thing that they have

00:22:05 ◼   ► to prove to the entire planet is they

00:22:07 ◼   ► They have to be able to do that new thing without Steve.

00:22:10 ◼   ► And it has to be, everything that's come out

00:22:13 ◼   ► has been derivative of an existing thing,

00:22:15 ◼   ► whether it's the mini, or whether it's this,

00:22:16 ◼   ► or whether it's that, it all is,

00:22:18 ◼   ► it clearly came from a game plan that was already set.

00:22:20 ◼   ► That first new leg on the stool,

00:22:23 ◼   ► that's the one everyone's gonna be like, okay, whew.

00:22:25 ◼   ► Right, but until you see that, everyone's kinda like,

00:22:28 ◼   ► we're gonna make this, is this gonna work?

00:22:29 ◼   ► Are we gonna be able to pull this off?

00:22:31 ◼   ► - I do think it's a coincidence.

00:22:32 ◼   ► I just think it's coincidental timing.

00:22:34 ◼   ► But I think it's very bad timing for Apple

00:22:36 ◼   ► that they've hit this, I'm not even gonna say dry patch,

00:22:40 ◼   ► but maybe just a part where nothing's ready yet

00:22:43 ◼   ► at a time where perception wise out in the world,

00:22:47 ◼   ► there is an awful lot of see,

00:22:48 ◼   ► they can't do it without Steve Jobs out there.

00:22:51 ◼   ► - You think it's a coincidence?

00:22:52 ◼   ► - I do think it's a coincidence,

00:22:54 ◼   ► but I think it's really an unfortunate one

00:22:55 ◼   ► 'cause I feel like now is when they really,

00:22:57 ◼   ► like a killer new product a week ago,

00:23:01 ◼   ► like early April or at the end of March

00:23:02 ◼   ► would have been just what the doctor ordered

00:23:05 ◼   ► for the company.

00:23:06 ◼   ► - Completely agree.

00:23:07 ◼   ► - Do you think we will, here's a question.

00:23:10 ◼   ► Do you think now though that we've gotten through April

00:23:12 ◼   ► and it doesn't look like anything's coming in April

00:23:15 ◼   ► and who knows, maybe I've got an email saying

00:23:16 ◼   ► come to California next week.

00:23:18 ◼   ► I don't think so, but where's Jim?

00:23:20 ◼   ► Jim would know.

00:23:21 ◼   ► Not here.

00:23:23 ◼   ► - Okay, upstairs.

00:23:25 ◼   ► - Yeah, probably talking to Apple.

00:23:26 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:23:28 ◼   ► Do you think now that we've gotten through

00:23:32 ◼   ► and clearly the iPad, there's no new iPad coming out

00:23:34 ◼   ► the schedule the last few years, would they sneak it in in May before WWDC or is it like,

00:23:41 ◼   ► if not now, wait for WWDC?

00:23:43 ◼   ► Well, this is that Buzz machine that I was talking about because we all collectively

00:23:46 ◼   ► have these long conversations.

00:23:48 ◼   ► It somehow leaks.

00:23:49 ◼   ► I don't know how it leaks.

00:23:50 ◼   ► Maybe it's you, maybe it's other people, but like little bits of it, it's coming out and

00:23:54 ◼   ► we start having these conversations.

00:23:56 ◼   ► I've been in Dublin for three days now and I haven't had any conversation about like,

00:24:00 ◼   ► "Hey, are you going to get the new blah, blah, blah?"

00:24:02 ◼   ► So that pre-buzz generating thing, whether it's deliberate or not, doesn't currently

00:24:07 ◼   ► exist.

00:24:08 ◼   ► So to me that means there's nothing imminent that's going to be there.

00:24:11 ◼   ► And maybe they're just, maybe like he was talking out on whatever he was on, 60 Minutes,

00:24:15 ◼   ► maybe he's really clamped down and really locked it down, which would be amazeballs.

00:24:20 ◼   ► But I knew you were going to use that word.

00:24:25 ◼   ► It's Michael's word of the week.

00:24:27 ◼   ► That would be great.

00:24:28 ◼   ► But you know, I mean bigger, who knows?

00:24:30 ◼   ► That would be the first time, right?

00:24:31 ◼   ► It'd be first everything else. There's it's nothing has been like an explicitly

00:24:34 ◼   ► But it's just we sort of built together the picture over the like two months before it actually arrives

00:24:39 ◼   ► We're like well, it could be a pad or I mean our tablet or this sort of thing well

00:24:42 ◼   ► Then the and the tablets a good example be where

00:24:45 ◼   ► Somehow it was I think it was it was the timing of it was that Steve Jobs was on a medical leave right absence

00:24:53 ◼   ► right and came back in the summer and

00:24:56 ◼   ► it was

00:24:58 ◼   ► It just somehow everybody at Apple just sort of knew that Steve's back and what he's doing is the tablet right and he's committed to

00:25:05 ◼   ► It and it was from summer until February and that's when they shipped it and it was the iPad

00:25:08 ◼   ► So nobody knew exactly what it looked like there were no screenshots that leaked. I don't even think the hardware leaked for that one. I

00:25:15 ◼   ► Yeah, nobody really knew so everybody, you know, is it gonna be is it gonna be this size?

00:25:20 ◼   ► Is it gonna be this size is gonna be thick is it gonna be thin?

00:25:24 ◼   ► No, I don't think okay

00:25:27 ◼   ► (audience laughs)

00:25:30 ◼   ► - Nobody really knew, so they did keep that under wraps,

00:25:32 ◼   ► but the fact that they were working on a tablet was known.

00:25:35 ◼   ► I mean, I would have bet everything on it.

00:25:37 ◼   ► - Exactly, we had some approximation of what it might be,

00:25:40 ◼   ► and right now we're talking about watches.

00:25:43 ◼   ► - And I think I've given a lot of thought

00:25:46 ◼   ► to the watch thing.

00:25:47 ◼   ► I think the watch thing, I almost,

00:25:49 ◼   ► I really think that it might just be like a joke.

00:25:53 ◼   ► (audience laughs)

00:25:54 ◼   ► Like somebody at Apple has obviously told a few reporters,

00:25:56 ◼   ► Because Bloomberg or somebody was like,

00:25:59 ◼   ► according to sources, close to the company.

00:26:01 ◼   ► 100, Johnny Ives, 100 engineers working on a watch.

00:26:05 ◼   ► And it's like, 100 engineers on a watch, really?

00:26:07 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:26:09 ◼   ► I really think it's maybe like a joke

00:26:12 ◼   ► to get Samsung to make watches.

00:26:14 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:26:16 ◼   ► Right?

00:26:18 ◼   ► They're like, Johnny Ives, they're like dying.

00:26:21 ◼   ► - We got to get on it.

00:26:22 ◼   ► We pink and black and white, let's get going.

00:26:24 ◼   ► - Right, and then like, you know, like Tim Cook is like

00:26:27 ◼   ► talking to Foxconn and they're like,

00:26:29 ◼   ► well we've got this other factory over here

00:26:30 ◼   ► and Samsung's using it to make watches

00:26:31 ◼   ► and Tim Cook's like.

00:26:32 ◼   ► (audience laughing)

00:26:36 ◼   ► - Got 'em.

00:26:37 ◼   ► - And then, you know, they're like, all right, all right,

00:26:40 ◼   ► call Bloomberg up, tell him it's got to be really big.

00:26:43 ◼   ► (audience laughing)

00:26:45 ◼   ► Heavy. - Yeah, exactly.

00:26:47 ◼   ► - Really heavy. - Lot of weight to it.

00:26:49 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:26:51 ◼   ► - I kind of think with the watch thing.

00:26:53 ◼   ► - It's the greatest prank ever, right.

00:26:56 ◼   ► - And when the stories came out there,

00:26:57 ◼   ► everybody was talking about it,

00:26:58 ◼   ► and then hacker news is, you know,

00:27:00 ◼   ► iWatch and it's a tech meme and top story is out,

00:27:02 ◼   ► blah, blah, blah, watches.

00:27:03 ◼   ► And then, you know, it really were a story.

00:27:05 ◼   ► I'm not even making it up where it was like,

00:27:07 ◼   ► someone in Google was like,

00:27:07 ◼   ► "Well, we're working on watches too."

00:27:10 ◼   ► And they're very smart.

00:27:13 ◼   ► And all of a sudden, everybody's talking about watches

00:27:15 ◼   ► out of this rumor that Apple is doing.

00:27:17 ◼   ► I really don't think it's a thing.

00:27:18 ◼   ► - How many people are wearing a watch right now?

00:27:22 ◼   ► 25%.

00:27:23 ◼   ► Can I tell you what I think the single biggest problem with the whole idea of Apple doing

00:27:28 ◼   ► watches?

00:27:29 ◼   ► When you go into a real watch store, there are one side men's watches, other side ladies'

00:27:37 ◼   ► watches.

00:27:38 ◼   ► And there's a reason for that.

00:27:40 ◼   ► What is Apple going to do?

00:27:41 ◼   ► You don't go in and buy ladies' iPods and men's iPads.

00:27:44 ◼   ► They make products that appeal to everybody.

00:27:48 ◼   ► And I don't see how you do that with a watch.

00:27:51 ◼   ► You've made this argument with me before. I don't think this holds water because they are really good at building fashion items.

00:27:57 ◼   ► And I think they, of any company, could build something which would be, had universal appeal to either gender.

00:28:03 ◼   ► Maybe I'm just, I lack the imagination to imagine a universal watch.

00:28:07 ◼   ► But you agree though that they'd only do one.

00:28:09 ◼   ► Oh yeah. Have they ever not done that?

00:28:13 ◼   ► The other thing, I think I've said this before, but my other theory on it is that it's just the new, this year's iPod Nano.

00:28:19 ◼   ► And maybe it comes with a wrist strap.

00:28:21 ◼   ► Right.

00:28:22 ◼   ► Yeah, could be.

00:28:25 ◼   ► The other big problem I see with it is the display technology.

00:28:29 ◼   ► Because I do wear a watch, but that's because I want to glance at my wrist and I want to

00:28:32 ◼   ► see the time immediately.

00:28:33 ◼   ► Right now.

00:28:34 ◼   ► And I do not want to have to turn it on.

00:28:35 ◼   ► So the way that people wear the old iPod Nano as a watch, kind of cool, looks cool, would

00:28:40 ◼   ► drive me nuts though.

00:28:41 ◼   ► You got to hit a button to turn it on.

00:28:45 ◼   ► But like a bright colorful LCD screen will suck the battery right, you can't leave it

00:28:48 ◼   ► on.

00:28:49 ◼   ► are using E ink and I got one of those, you can't read it.

00:28:52 ◼   ► It's like, you know, it's kind of horrible.

00:28:55 ◼   ► - I just don't understand the use case.

00:28:56 ◼   ► That's the thing is, it's like it's attached to my phone,

00:28:58 ◼   ► I've got two things and what's going on there.

00:29:00 ◼   ► I can see some interesting things being on the screen,

00:29:02 ◼   ► but it seems like more complexity rather than less

00:29:05 ◼   ► than any scenario that I imagine, and that's bad.

00:29:07 ◼   ► It should be simple.

00:29:09 ◼   ► There should be some simple use case

00:29:10 ◼   ► that I haven't yet imagined.

00:29:12 ◼   ► - Right, I'm imagining that if there really is smoke

00:29:14 ◼   ► to this fire, it may well be a thing you put on your wrist,

00:29:18 ◼   ► but it's not a watch.

00:29:20 ◼   ► Stop thinking of it as a watch in terms of what we think

00:29:22 ◼   ► of as watches.

00:29:24 ◼   ► And there's tons of opportunity.

00:29:26 ◼   ► It would be awesome if you could run apps and stuff like that.

00:29:29 ◼   ► Panic status watch.

00:29:30 ◼   ► Sweet.

00:29:31 ◼   ► That'd be awesome.

00:29:32 ◼   ► How many mails do I have?

00:29:33 ◼   ► Shoot.

00:29:33 ◼   ► There's another one.

00:29:40 ◼   ► Just thinking about the no releases.

00:29:42 ◼   ► So what's the product that they've had the longest

00:29:45 ◼   ► run without a release on?

00:29:47 ◼   ► Mac Pro. Exactly, see this is our audience, right?

00:29:52 ◼   ► Right, these are guys who are running Xcode and... Right, right, right. Have like seventeen displays.

00:29:56 ◼   ► Right, and it actually matters. So it's been...

00:29:59 ◼   ► Do you know, I looked it up before the show started, the last Mac Pro was

00:30:03 ◼   ► released in

00:30:06 ◼   ► two thousand one.

00:30:08 ◼   ► It's been twelve years,

00:30:10 ◼   ► give or take. No. Really?

00:30:14 ◼   ► - That's not right.

00:30:15 ◼   ► - When was it?

00:30:16 ◼   ► I think it was 2009, 2008.

00:30:18 ◼   ► And they had like a upgrade last year.

00:30:21 ◼   ► It was like--

00:30:23 ◼   ► - But it's still the same ID, it's still the cheese grater,

00:30:25 ◼   ► it's still huge and so much metal.

00:30:27 ◼   ► You look at it now after you're looking at the iMac

00:30:28 ◼   ► and you're like, that is just a waste.

00:30:30 ◼   ► But there's people love it.

00:30:31 ◼   ► There's people that really get,

00:30:33 ◼   ► they like the expandability.

00:30:34 ◼   ► - Yeah, but there's people who I remember,

00:30:36 ◼   ► and this is, you know, like, when I really get in touch

00:30:38 ◼   ► with the demand for the Mac Pro

00:30:41 ◼   ► is when I'm hanging out with developers

00:30:43 ◼   ► place like this because developers truly truly want like like if they let's say they came out with the top of the line Intel

00:30:50 ◼   ► Best chips Intel has best fastest thing they could make tomorrow

00:30:54 ◼   ► It's not really even fast enough for these guys it really adds the truth about writing code and doing certain really

00:31:00 ◼   ► you know Photoshop and stuff like that I

00:31:02 ◼   ► Remember at WWDC last year people coming up to me, and they'd be like hey John nice to meet everybody

00:31:08 ◼   ► Hey, what are they gonna do a Mac Pro?

00:31:12 ◼   ► Do you think it's I know that man you can't even buy one in certain countries in Europe anymore

00:31:18 ◼   ► Right because that you guys are filming out. There's like a new law that passed about what is it?

00:31:24 ◼   ► the fans or something

00:31:26 ◼   ► Are you lying?

00:31:29 ◼   ► Right, but it's so old that it's no longer compliant with the laws for making computers and the EU

00:31:41 ◼   ► - So they banned it.

00:31:42 ◼   ► - Yes, when they just don't sell them here.

00:31:44 ◼   ► Do you think it's--

00:31:46 ◼   ► - I think it's, the thing I think about is,

00:31:48 ◼   ► they're so into what they've learned with the iPhone

00:31:51 ◼   ► and the iPad, and you can even see it on the iMac,

00:31:53 ◼   ► and the Air, it's like, simplicity.

00:31:54 ◼   ► You don't want to have to configure it,

00:31:56 ◼   ► and this is sort of the antithesis of what nerds like,

00:31:58 ◼   ► is I wanna fuck with it a little bit, right?

00:32:00 ◼   ► And that, but that world is something

00:32:02 ◼   ► that they're not modeling for.

00:32:04 ◼   ► They model for that world, but it's like,

00:32:05 ◼   ► here's everything that you need.

00:32:06 ◼   ► It's perfect, right?

00:32:08 ◼   ► Just go with it.

00:32:09 ◼   ► So I'm sure that there's a lot of people

00:32:10 ◼   ► that would be very cranky about that.

00:32:11 ◼   ► I used to run part of the Mac OS X server team,

00:32:13 ◼   ► so we love to tinker with stuff,

00:32:15 ◼   ► but it's not, and this worries people,

00:32:17 ◼   ► is it's not, there's not as much tinkering that can go on,

00:32:20 ◼   ► and they seem to be moving away from that

00:32:22 ◼   ► in terms of the hardware.

00:32:23 ◼   ► - And I think it really shows how,

00:32:25 ◼   ► even though Apple, by market cap,

00:32:27 ◼   ► is the biggest company in the world,

00:32:28 ◼   ► or second biggest or whatever,

00:32:29 ◼   ► and doing really well, and has an incredible head count,

00:32:32 ◼   ► even if you subtract all of the retail people,

00:32:34 ◼   ► big, big company, it's gotten big,

00:32:37 ◼   ► But they're not run like most big companies where there's these little

00:32:42 ◼   ► divisions within the company and because any other company or the way people would

00:32:46 ◼   ► think Apple would be run, there'd be somebody who runs the Mac Pro division.

00:32:50 ◼   ► Right.

00:32:50 ◼   ► And the Mac Pro division would only make Mac Pros.

00:32:52 ◼   ► And so they're going to keep coming out with them on a regular basis because that's

00:32:56 ◼   ► the whole you know, if they don't, they're going to lose their jobs.

00:32:59 ◼   ► And there isn't anybody like that at Apple.

00:33:01 ◼   ► And it's like they've only got so much

00:33:03 ◼   ► attention and their attention is clearly not on the Mac Pro.

00:33:07 ◼   ► Obviously.

00:33:07 ◼   ► And I mean, there's demand out there,

00:33:08 ◼   ► but I don't think it's-- how many would buy a new back

00:33:11 ◼   ► pro right now?

00:33:13 ◼   ► That's less than the watch.

00:33:14 ◼   ► Yeah, not as many hands as I thought.

00:33:15 ◼   ► Less than the watch.

00:33:16 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:33:16 ◼   ► [LAUGHTER]

00:33:19 ◼   ► Let me just-- I'll take the break right now.

00:33:28 ◼   ► Let me thank our second sponsor for the show.

00:33:29 ◼   ► And our second sponsor is Squarespace.

00:33:32 ◼   ► Squarespace is a longtime sponsor of the talk show.

00:33:35 ◼   ► fabulous, fabulous service where you sign up

00:33:38 ◼   ► and they do everything to give you a website.

00:33:41 ◼   ► They do domain name registration.

00:33:44 ◼   ► They have, you can set up a blog, you can set up shopping.

00:33:48 ◼   ► That's the big new thing they have this year

00:33:50 ◼   ► is they do your own shopping right there on your website.

00:33:54 ◼   ► Drag and drop, you set the prices, they do the commerce,

00:33:57 ◼   ► you don't have to write all the code.

00:33:59 ◼   ► Who here has written code to do credit card processing?

00:34:02 ◼   ► Who here wants-- - Wow.

00:34:03 ◼   ► Who here would ever want to write code

00:34:05 ◼   ► to do credit card processing?

00:34:06 ◼   ► Nobody.

00:34:07 ◼   ► It's the worst.

00:34:08 ◼   ► It's like--

00:34:08 ◼   ► There's two over here.

00:34:11 ◼   ► Paul and Andy.

00:34:13 ◼   ► It's the worst job in the world.

00:34:15 ◼   ► Squarespace does it for you.

00:34:18 ◼   ► They do all the compliance with all the crazy laws

00:34:21 ◼   ► that you have to do when you're dealing with credit cards.

00:34:23 ◼   ► And it really just couldn't be easier.

00:34:25 ◼   ► And the other thing they have is a huge selection

00:34:27 ◼   ► of great templates that you can choose from

00:34:30 ◼   ► to set the look of your site.

00:34:34 ◼   ► It is so much easier to get started

00:34:36 ◼   ► with a good looking website today than when me and you were

00:34:39 ◼   ► installing Perl scripts and removable type in 2002.

00:34:41 ◼   ► Good times.

00:34:42 ◼   ► Good times.

00:34:43 ◼   ► Those are good times.

00:34:44 ◼   ► And you can customize it all, too.

00:34:46 ◼   ► So if you don't know code, you can set it all up just

00:34:48 ◼   ► by clicking and looking and figuring it out.

00:34:50 ◼   ► And you can just look at it visually.

00:34:52 ◼   ► And if you do know code, you can customize everything.

00:34:54 ◼   ► So my thanks to Squarespace for sponsoring the show.

00:34:57 ◼   ► Find out more.

00:34:57 ◼   ► They have a special URL so that you

00:34:59 ◼   ► know that you're coming from the show, which is squarespace.com/the-talk-show-four.

00:35:07 ◼   ► The talk show four. Yeah, because it's like the fourth time they've...

00:35:10 ◼   ► I've got it.

00:35:11 ◼   ► The URL is just the talk show. It's the on the website on the...

00:35:15 ◼   ► Lex Friedman has corrected it.

00:35:17 ◼   ► In the front row.

00:35:18 ◼   ► The URL is the talk show.

00:35:20 ◼   ► Okay.

00:35:20 ◼   ► And the coupon code is the talk show four.

00:35:22 ◼   ► Is there a slash between talk show and four?

00:35:25 ◼   ► Just try-- Squarespace itself is so much easier than this deal.

00:35:31 ◼   ► So don't take this as any kind of sign

00:35:35 ◼   ► that this is what Squarespace is like.

00:35:37 ◼   ► Go to squarespace.com/thetalkshow.

00:35:40 ◼   ► And then when you sign up, they'll say, hey,

00:35:42 ◼   ► do you want a coupon code?

00:35:43 ◼   ► And they're going to save you a lot of money.

00:35:45 ◼   ► You type in the talk show for.

00:35:48 ◼   ► All right, Lex has signed off on this.

00:35:49 ◼   ► All right, very good.

00:35:55 ◼   ► I don't have anything more on Apple.

00:35:56 ◼   ► Okay.

00:35:56 ◼   ► Right?

00:35:57 ◼   ► I'm out. I'm actually done.

00:35:59 ◼   ► This is the last show.

00:36:01 ◼   ► And I'm out.

00:36:03 ◼   ► Right.

00:36:03 ◼   ► No.

00:36:05 ◼   ► But...

00:36:07 ◼   ► And we're talking. I don't even think I've introduced this.

00:36:10 ◼   ► Everybody at home knows we're the...

00:36:12 ◼   ► Why is there an audience here?

00:36:13 ◼   ► We're here at the OOL conference in Dublin, Ireland.

00:36:15 ◼   ► We just...

00:36:16 ◼   ► OOL.

00:36:16 ◼   ► OOL with the accent to the right.

00:36:18 ◼   ► You have to hold down the 3 key on the keyboard to get that.

00:36:21 ◼   ► It's very confusing.

00:36:22 ◼   ► It's Sunday.

00:36:23 ◼   ► Yeah, no, you know, you can just hold down the you now.

00:36:25 ◼   ► Oh, so you I'm sorry.

00:36:27 ◼   ► Yeah, not the three, right?

00:36:28 ◼   ► But they have the new thing and the Mac is like the iPod where you can

00:36:31 ◼   ► hold down.

00:36:31 ◼   ► You're like, I'm going to

00:36:32 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:36:34 ◼   ► Did you

00:36:40 ◼   ► did you did totally side topic.

00:36:46 ◼   ► Did you memorize a bunch of keystrokes for some of the weird characters?

00:36:49 ◼   ► I still have I'm going to date myself here.

00:36:52 ◼   ► I still remember all the WordPress, not WordPress, that's not--

00:36:54 ◼   ► - WordPerfect. - WordPerfect.

00:36:56 ◼   ► - I knew what you were going for.

00:36:57 ◼   ► - I can still do that.

00:36:57 ◼   ► I can like boom, boom, boom, I can still imagine that.

00:36:59 ◼   ► That's how it's ingrained in my head.

00:37:01 ◼   ► - The ones that I have are the ones for curly quotes,

00:37:05 ◼   ► apostrophes, and quotes because,

00:37:07 ◼   ► and it's not a hard programming challenge,

00:37:09 ◼   ► but it took until the year 2000 for smart quotes

00:37:13 ◼   ► to become usable in layout applications.

00:37:17 ◼   ► So if you did any kind of graphic design,

00:37:19 ◼   ► You never typed apostrophes and quotes.

00:37:22 ◼   ► You did the shift command control bracket.

00:37:26 ◼   ► I can see that giving you a lot of rage back then.

00:37:28 ◼   ► Oh, yeah.

00:37:29 ◼   ► And I used to do it in Twitter.

00:37:34 ◼   ► Now, the iPhone makes it really easy.

00:37:36 ◼   ► You just hold the key, and then you

00:37:37 ◼   ► can slide over and get the curly quote.

00:37:39 ◼   ► But I used to type curly apostrophes in my tweets

00:37:41 ◼   ► by hand that way.

00:37:43 ◼   ► And then Tweetbot added it as a feature,

00:37:44 ◼   ► and it was like, oh my god, I can't

00:37:46 ◼   ► believe I was such an asshole.

00:37:48 ◼   ► It's so much nicer to just type instead of...

00:37:52 ◼   ► That.

00:37:56 ◼   ► We speak together at a couple conferences a year.

00:38:00 ◼   ► I've never...yeah, you're my conference friend. That's the only time we see each other.

00:38:04 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly. I've never actually been in the same, like, where your house is or my house is.

00:38:08 ◼   ► And everybody, we've all been...

00:38:12 ◼   ► I'm not telling you my address. I can get it, you know.

00:38:16 ◼   ► you know. But everybody. I keep forgetting that you work there. That's the place that

00:38:27 ◼   ► we won't mention. But all the speakers keep saying, emphasizing, my god, what,

00:38:35 ◼   ► thank you to Paul and to Dermain. What a great conference. Amazing conference.

00:38:38 ◼   ► But why though? I mean there is something going on here, like

00:38:42 ◼   ► everybody just says it's great and we all seem to acknowledge it's great and

00:38:45 ◼   ► and it really does seem like the attendees are happy.

00:38:49 ◼   ► But what is it?

00:38:50 ◼   ► I can't quite, I'm not quite sure I see

00:38:53 ◼   ► what the special--

00:38:53 ◼   ► - I think it has something to do with the eye

00:38:55 ◼   ► that we were talking about earlier,

00:38:56 ◼   ► which is that sort of, that attention to detail

00:38:59 ◼   ► that they have about everything that they do, right?

00:39:01 ◼   ► Is like, you know, you can sense by the typography

00:39:05 ◼   ► that they care about what they're doing, right?

00:39:07 ◼   ► It's not just thrown together, it's like,

00:39:09 ◼   ► you've sat there and go like, oh, this is beautiful.

00:39:11 ◼   ► I wanna touch this, I kinda wanna lick it a little bit.

00:39:14 ◼   ► But it's that sort of thing, and it kind of just

00:39:17 ◼   ► flows all together.

00:39:18 ◼   ► So when you're looking up at-- I was commenting

00:39:21 ◼   ► on the projector from the event.

00:39:23 ◼   ► Beautiful 20 by 40 screen, is that right?

00:39:26 ◼   ► And just like great-- it looks great.

00:39:29 ◼   ► And it's that attention to detail that I think is one

00:39:32 ◼   ► thing.

00:39:33 ◼   ► Oh, and the great speakers, too.

00:39:34 ◼   ► [LAUGHTER]

00:39:37 ◼   ► But it's a lot--

00:39:37 ◼   ► [LAUGHTER]

00:39:41 ◼   ► It's a little self-advocatizing.

00:39:42 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:39:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, the speakers are great.

00:39:45 ◼   ► - Amazing.

00:39:47 ◼   ► - Great choices, fellas.

00:39:48 ◼   ► - Another thing I thought,

00:39:51 ◼   ► I was blown away by the year over year.

00:39:54 ◼   ► I know I said this when I was on stage,

00:39:55 ◼   ► but that last year was great.

00:39:57 ◼   ► And if the fact that I came back is proof

00:40:00 ◼   ► that I thought it was good and worth coming back to,

00:40:02 ◼   ► but I really can't believe one year over another

00:40:05 ◼   ► how much improved it was.

00:40:06 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:40:08 ◼   ► Amazing conference.

00:40:09 ◼   ► - And I do feel, I feel like it suited

00:40:11 ◼   ► level of attention to detail is suited to the audience of people making apps for these

00:40:16 ◼   ► obsessive compulsive pixel perfect designs.

00:40:20 ◼   ► Well, of course, we're going to want to come to the conference where they sent a guy to

00:40:23 ◼   ► Japan to find wood to make the logo for the bad.

00:40:28 ◼   ► Right?

00:40:29 ◼   ► Of course.

00:40:30 ◼   ► You go out, you leave here and everybody here is like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, great.

00:40:33 ◼   ► That was really well done.

00:40:34 ◼   ► These are nice badges."

00:40:35 ◼   ► And then you go out in the real world and say, "I was at a conference and they sent

00:40:37 ◼   ► a guy to Japan to find little chips of wood."

00:40:38 ◼   ► They'd be like what kind of an asshole are you?

00:40:41 ◼   ► And then you realize oh, yeah, I was it all and it seemed normal there

00:40:49 ◼   ► It made sense at the time I guess

00:40:53 ◼   ► When I guess your pants really far away from Ireland

00:40:57 ◼   ► But the badges were so nice they're beautiful

00:41:02 ◼   ► It was like it was it was sort of a sensory sort of experience you're opening it up and look at the pages and in

00:41:07 ◼   ► the paper it's just nice and thick and it's gorgeous so attention to detail

00:41:11 ◼   ► yeah absolutely and I also think it does seem you know it seems perfectly suited

00:41:17 ◼   ► to this city like it's the right conference in the right city yeah you

00:41:21 ◼   ► feel you feel a little bit of I mean I'm from the Silicon Valley you feel like

00:41:24 ◼   ► you're hanging out with like the right nerds right it's like these are people

00:41:28 ◼   ► who care about what they're doing they're building important things and

00:41:30 ◼   ► you know I love being in Dublin because it feels very familiar to me so I

00:41:37 ◼   ► I ran this by you yesterday, I hope you remember.

00:41:39 ◼   ► - Uh oh, what time was it?

00:41:41 ◼   ► You ran it by me?

00:41:43 ◼   ► - But you and I, for years now, have pondered the idea

00:41:47 ◼   ► of maybe jointly producing a conference ourselves.

00:41:49 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, we have.

00:41:51 ◼   ► - And we've done a lot of talking.

00:41:52 ◼   ► - Lot of drinking.

00:41:54 ◼   ► - And it's, you know, there's no use keeping it a secret,

00:41:59 ◼   ► 'cause it's probably not gonna happen.

00:42:00 ◼   ► - No, probably not.

00:42:01 ◼   ► But it's a great idea.

00:42:02 ◼   ► - Right.

00:42:06 ◼   ► But one of the big ideas we've done a lot of drinking and talking over is where would

00:42:11 ◼   ► we have it?

00:42:12 ◼   ► And part of it really stems from South by Southwest, which is the first place where

00:42:16 ◼   ► we really were going on a regular basis.

00:42:19 ◼   ► Rest in peace, South by.

00:42:21 ◼   ► Right.

00:42:22 ◼   ► Austin is great.

00:42:23 ◼   ► Haven't been back in a few years.

00:42:24 ◼   ► It's kind of blown up and over.

00:42:25 ◼   ► But it used to be amazing.

00:42:27 ◼   ► It used to be truly amazing.

00:42:30 ◼   ► bigger than Ool, but in the early days, the web part of it was close in spirit, you know,

00:42:37 ◼   ► and really the same sort of interactions and the same sort of friendships that are formed from it,

00:42:44 ◼   ► you know, and the same type of speakers and the same sort of, I just saw somebody give a talk,

00:42:49 ◼   ► and then right after that a talk that, oh my God, it was even better. But also part of what

00:42:56 ◼   ► what made South by Southwest great was Austin.

00:42:58 ◼   ► Austin was a great town.

00:42:59 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:43:00 ◼   ► - Right?

00:43:01 ◼   ► So we tossed that out.

00:43:02 ◼   ► But the one idea we had, and it almost ties back

00:43:04 ◼   ► to the Unprofessional show before,

00:43:06 ◼   ► we thought about would we have a conference in Vegas?

00:43:09 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:43:09 ◼   ► - And we've mentioned this to people,

00:43:13 ◼   ► like we're thinking about doing a tech conference,

00:43:14 ◼   ► might have it in Vegas, and then it's bifurcated, right?

00:43:19 ◼   ► It's like we say, like hey, Michael and I were thinking

00:43:22 ◼   ► maybe we would do a conference, and people are like,

00:43:24 ◼   ► And we're like and in Vegas and then half the people are like where do I send my money and then the other half are

00:43:29 ◼   ► Like that's the grossest thing I've ever

00:43:31 ◼   ► Why would you do that?

00:43:34 ◼   ► Do it anywhere else have it anywhere else in the world. Why would you want me to go there?

00:43:40 ◼   ► It's a fake city right right. It's a fake city. That's the thing about it

00:43:44 ◼   ► I think that people is first up

00:43:46 ◼   ► It's really easy to get there anyone from in the states you can get there really easily

00:43:48 ◼   ► But I think there's it's just it's built out of the middle of a desert

00:43:52 ◼   ► And there's like you know some of our favorite places to speak are like just soaking in their culture in Vegas is a shithole, right?

00:43:59 ◼   ► It's beautiful, and I love it there, but it's like you're like wow this person just threw up on my kids

00:44:04 ◼   ► Well one of my favorite stories about Vegas, and it's a new thing is

00:44:13 ◼   ► There's a new breed of

00:44:18 ◼   ► I don't even want to call them panhandlers,

00:44:20 ◼   ► but people trying to hustle money on the street.

00:44:22 ◼   ► And the old one.

00:44:23 ◼   ► Those guys?

00:44:24 ◼   ► No, no, no, no, no.

00:44:25 ◼   ► Not those guys.

00:44:25 ◼   ► No, but the old one was, and they're still there,

00:44:28 ◼   ► is people who are wearing illegal, no copyright costumes,

00:44:33 ◼   ► like a Mickey Mouse, but like this really gross looking Mickey

00:44:37 ◼   ► Mouse.

00:44:38 ◼   ► Like really gross.

00:44:39 ◼   ► Like clearly, obviously Disney is not

00:44:42 ◼   ► selling the real Mickey Mouse costumes to people

00:44:44 ◼   ► to dress up in.

00:44:45 ◼   ► So it's like, but it's just like gross.

00:44:47 ◼   ► and like the eyes are dead.

00:44:50 ◼   ► And then you see someone letting their little sweet little

00:44:53 ◼   ► three-year-old girl pose next to them.

00:44:55 ◼   ► It's the same thing in Times Square in New York.

00:44:56 ◼   ► They have these guys.

00:44:58 ◼   ► And it's superheroes and Mickey Mouse and stuff like that.

00:45:01 ◼   ► That's old, and they're still there.

00:45:03 ◼   ► But the new one-- and this says everything

00:45:05 ◼   ► there is to say about Vegas.

00:45:06 ◼   ► The new one is, kick me in the nuts for $20.

00:45:14 ◼   ► Look at the-- you can't see this on the radio

00:45:16 ◼   ► or whatever we're listening to, there's shrugging going on.

00:45:18 ◼   ► 'Cause people are like, "Ooh, God, yeah,

00:45:19 ◼   ► "I'm gonna do it."

00:45:20 ◼   ► - I was there with my wife, and we saw the first guy

00:45:24 ◼   ► with the sign, and he looked like a college kid, you know?

00:45:26 ◼   ► And he didn't look, he did not look like homeless,

00:45:29 ◼   ► he just looked like hipster.

00:45:30 ◼   ► And he had a sign.

00:45:34 ◼   ► - Had five bucks.

00:45:35 ◼   ► - Kick me in the nuts, $20.

00:45:37 ◼   ► And we thought, our first thought wasn't that it was legit,

00:45:41 ◼   ► we thought maybe it was like a college fraternity

00:45:44 ◼   ► hazing thing like, you've got to walk down the strip holding the sign that says you can

00:45:48 ◼   ► kick me in the nuts for 20 bucks and deal with the people you got. And then you go like

00:45:51 ◼   ► 10 more feet and there's another guy and this guy's sign was kick me in the nuts, $20, no

00:45:55 ◼   ► cup.

00:45:56 ◼   ► Did you do it?

00:46:01 ◼   ► No.

00:46:02 ◼   ► Well, I...

00:46:05 ◼   ► Did Amy do it? Because I can see that.

00:46:09 ◼   ► No, because she wouldn't, she would never kick a stranger in the nuts. She would, she

00:46:12 ◼   ► She has like a list of people.

00:46:16 ◼   ► You're like, "I've got to get down this list first before I go for strangers."

00:46:21 ◼   ► But the thing that really caught my mind about that was, what to me is more disturbing?

00:46:29 ◼   ► The guy who's doing this 20 bucks at a pop, or the guy, and you know he's mostly guys,

00:46:35 ◼   ► the guy who's going to say, "Yes, I'm going to pay you $20."

00:46:38 ◼   ► Here's 200 bucks, and they do it 10 times.

00:46:41 ◼   ► See if you're still standing there like what type

00:46:44 ◼   ► What type of low-grade psychopath you have to be to want to kick a strange man in the nuts?

00:46:51 ◼   ► like and

00:46:53 ◼   ► For the women out there allow me to emphasize getting kicked in the nuts is horrifying

00:46:57 ◼   ► It really is it is it is really it's really painful

00:47:02 ◼   ► Yeah

00:47:02 ◼   ► You got on I don't we were talking about the physics of it like how much where do you want the toe to go to?

00:47:07 ◼   ► maximize the kick and like, and it's just, yeah, there's more.

00:47:10 ◼   ► And so I understand like that to me.

00:47:13 ◼   ► And that also to me emphasizes the gross out factor of, oh,

00:47:17 ◼   ► it sounds like a cool conference, but it's in Las Vegas.

00:47:20 ◼   ► But to me, the parts that are would be cool about it, maybe, maybe would be

00:47:26 ◼   ► the fact that there's so much space, everything's big.

00:47:29 ◼   ► Right.

00:47:31 ◼   ► So if everybody in the conference decides

00:47:34 ◼   ► to go out and have a few beers afterwards.

00:47:36 ◼   ► There's actually room for everybody.

00:47:37 ◼   ► - Right, right, right.

00:47:38 ◼   ► - Right?

00:47:39 ◼   ► - You know, I mean, it's there, it's a party place.

00:47:41 ◼   ► I always worry that we'd lose like three quarters

00:47:43 ◼   ► of our people 'cause there's like this 20 bucks

00:47:45 ◼   ► in the nuts guy and they're like,

00:47:47 ◼   ► "Wait, Grover's speaking, but the guy not there is kidding."

00:47:49 ◼   ► - Right, like how, however sparsely attended

00:47:52 ◼   ► the morning sessions are usually--

00:47:54 ◼   ► - Right, right, right, you'd have to start like at four.

00:47:56 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:47:58 ◼   ► - Right, like we're gonna wrap up Friday night.

00:48:01 ◼   ► We'll see all of you Sunday at three.

00:48:03 ◼   ► Have a good time.

00:48:07 ◼   ► Here's 20 bucks.

00:48:08 ◼   ► I do that.

00:48:08 ◼   ► I think.

00:48:09 ◼   ► Right.

00:48:13 ◼   ► We can pay the guy to come in.

00:48:14 ◼   ► Right.

00:48:17 ◼   ► Like an open bar.

00:48:18 ◼   ► We'll have like an open, an open nut.

00:48:21 ◼   ► Open nut kick in the back.

00:48:24 ◼   ► That's a good close.

00:48:28 ◼   ► (audience laughing)

00:48:31 ◼   ► - Well, should we open these or,

00:48:35 ◼   ► Paul, do you want us to open these?

00:48:36 ◼   ► Me first?

00:48:37 ◼   ► All right, we got some gifts here.

00:48:39 ◼   ► - Yes, from the wonderful people.

00:48:41 ◼   ► They spelled my name right, sweet.

00:48:43 ◼   ► - These are from the conference organizers.

00:48:47 ◼   ► - I'm trying to predict based on prior gifts what this is.

00:48:50 ◼   ► I'm guessing.

00:48:51 ◼   ► - Somebody went to the bookstore today.

00:48:53 ◼   ► - It's something like typography.

00:48:54 ◼   ► - Draw your own file.

00:48:57 ◼   ► - Bam!

00:48:58 ◼   ► [APPLAUSE]

00:49:01 ◼   ► Did you cheat?

00:49:01 ◼   ► That was amazing.

00:49:02 ◼   ► I did not.

00:49:04 ◼   ► That was amazing.

00:49:06 ◼   ► All right.

00:49:07 ◼   ► Something about zen koans.

00:49:15 ◼   ► We got a ticket, too, for the lottery,

00:49:17 ◼   ► which we can't actually redeem.

00:49:19 ◼   ► Oh, if I win, I'm collecting it.

00:49:23 ◼   ► This is-- let's see here.

00:49:26 ◼   ► Oh, unmentionables from family jewels to friendly fire, what we say instead of what we mean.

00:49:33 ◼   ► [Laughter]

00:49:35 ◼   ► Wow.

00:49:36 ◼   ► Pretty close.

00:49:37 ◼   ► Damn.

00:49:38 ◼   ► [Applause]

00:49:40 ◼   ► Not bad.

00:49:42 ◼   ► Thank you. I want to thank, everybody's been thanking Paul and Dermot. They've gotten enough thanks.

00:49:46 ◼   ► I want to thank all of you because this is a very small room and it's very warm and most of you are standing

00:49:52 ◼   ► And I cannot even tell you how much I appreciate

00:49:55 ◼   ► your willingness to stand and listen to this.

00:49:57 ◼   ► - Amazing crowd.

00:49:58 ◼   ► What makes a conference, just to full circle,

00:50:01 ◼   ► is the people, right?

00:50:02 ◼   ► And that's what makes it.

00:50:03 ◼   ► What's great about South by Way Back When

00:50:04 ◼   ► is the fact that you go and you meet just people

00:50:07 ◼   ► that you wanna hang out with.

00:50:07 ◼   ► - And people would stand and wait for the fire marshal

00:50:09 ◼   ► to be like, "You can't stand here."

00:50:10 ◼   ► And we'd be like, "I'm not leaving this talk."

00:50:12 ◼   ► (audience laughing)

00:50:14 ◼   ► - So it's the people, right?

00:50:15 ◼   ► - Right.

00:50:16 ◼   ► Thank you.

00:50:17 ◼   ► - Thank you guys.

00:50:17 ◼   ► - Nut kicker got downstairs. - Downstairs.

00:50:20 ◼   ► 30 euros.

00:50:21 ◼   ► It's 30 years.

00:50:22 ◼   ► Thank you guys.

00:50:23 ◼   ► Thank you.

00:50:24 ◼   ► Good job.

00:50:25 ◼   ► Thank you.

00:50:25 ◼   ► [APPLAUSE]

00:50:28 ◼   ► Good job.

00:50:29 ◼   ► Thank you.

00:50:30 ◼   ► [APPLAUSE]

00:50:34 ◼   ► [ Silence ]