The Talk Show

00:00:00 ◼   ► It does kind of feel like like I just discovered Phil's in San Francisco once last year and

00:00:07 ◼   ► I'm probably never gonna go there again. Uh

00:00:10 ◼   ► guess what though I looked on the map and there is a Phil Z within a few blocks of

00:00:15 ◼   ► The San Jose Convention Center. Oh, yeah. All right

00:00:19 ◼   ► It's like not right across the street but it's probably about as close as the one

00:00:27 ◼   ► Just a couple blocks. That was a good place. That's I I do wonder how different the culture of Santa

00:00:34 ◼   ► I've never been to San Jose. Like I've been only only a handful of times in Silicon Valley at all and

00:00:40 ◼   ► and so San Jose is even less familiar to me than the rest of it and

00:00:45 ◼   ► But you've gone to a couple events here and there right? Yeah, including the only time I ever set foot in

00:00:51 ◼   ► In San Jose was the 2012

00:00:56 ◼   ► October event so it was a the one a month after the big iPhone event they did

00:01:00 ◼   ► iPads and I think that was when the current form factor of the iMac debuted with the thin side not yet retina

00:01:09 ◼   ► Of course, yeah and was the last public

00:01:12 ◼   ► Event Apple held while Scott for stall was was an executive

00:01:17 ◼   ► Yeah, that was that was I remember so I still remember like the day that that he was officially announced as being out

00:01:25 ◼   ► We were actually Tiff and I were in vacation in Seattle. I was like in this weird clothing store with her like killing time my phone

00:01:31 ◼   ► I'm trying to catch up on what the heck just happened. Everyone was exploding about it. It's pretty cool. Yeah

00:01:35 ◼   ► No, so speaking of our of our IMAX though

00:01:39 ◼   ► I have a bone to pick with you about because I believe that that you and I have the same

00:01:44 ◼   ► 2014 first gen 5k iMac, correct

00:01:47 ◼   ► Does yours have problems with image retention? No

00:01:53 ◼   ► You're lucky either that or apparently I don't see it

00:01:57 ◼   ► It's possible that maybe I you know, maybe if my eyes were what they used to be

00:02:01 ◼   ► I would see it, but it doesn't seem here's here's why here's why you would see it in particular

00:02:05 ◼   ► because the the most common place I see it this this just started happening over the last few months and

00:02:12 ◼   ► And it's I know exactly what you're gonna say

00:02:14 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly. It just started happening over the last few months and it's getting worse quickly

00:02:19 ◼   ► And so what happens is, I'm not talking about burn-in,

00:02:22 ◼   ► like on Plasma TV, you have something burned in forever.

00:02:25 ◼   ► I'm talking about LCD image retention,

00:02:26 ◼   ► where basically you kind of see the ghost image

00:02:30 ◼   ► of what was there before for a few minutes,

00:02:33 ◼   ► and it fades over a minute or two.

00:02:36 ◼   ► So if you have something high contrast up

00:02:39 ◼   ► for five or 10 minutes, say.

00:02:41 ◼   ► So for instance, when you're podcasting,

00:02:42 ◼   ► and you have a couple windows up that might have

00:02:44 ◼   ► text notes or the Skype window or whatever else,

00:02:47 ◼   ► and then you go to your web browser

00:02:48 ◼   ► and you load a dark gray website,

00:02:52 ◼   ► then you will see the shadows of your formerly in those spots

00:02:57 ◼   ► black and white windows.

00:02:59 ◼   ► You will see those very clearly against the gray background

00:03:02 ◼   ► of the website you're looking at.

00:03:04 ◼   ► Yeah, it's like 4a5--

00:03:05 ◼   ► So this almost always gets me.

00:03:07 ◼   ► 4a5, 2, 5a.

00:03:09 ◼   ► Exactly.

00:03:10 ◼   ► On my previous display-- and it was ancient.

00:03:14 ◼   ► I used to talk about it on a podcast.

00:03:16 ◼   ► But before getting this 5K iMac, what was that,

00:03:21 ◼   ► like two and a half years ago now, I guess?

00:03:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, something like that. - Yeah.

00:03:24 ◼   ► - I was using a 20 inch Apple Cinema Display,

00:03:28 ◼   ► not 24 inch, 20 inch from, oh geez,

00:03:32 ◼   ► must be like 2000 or 2002 or something.

00:03:35 ◼   ► I mean, I don't know, it was really,

00:03:37 ◼   ► maybe it wasn't quite that old,

00:03:38 ◼   ► but it was really pretty old.

00:03:39 ◼   ► And I was sort of in a Syracuse's situation

00:03:44 ◼   ► where I-- it was long past the point where I could have easily

00:03:49 ◼   ► afforded to replace it.

00:03:51 ◼   ► And there were all sorts of good options I could have bought.

00:03:53 ◼   ► But I was sort of hoping for something retina forever

00:03:57 ◼   ► and ever and ever.

00:03:58 ◼   ► And so I just kept putting it off.

00:03:59 ◼   ► It's like, there's no way I'm spending $1,000 on an apple.

00:04:02 ◼   ► Even no matter how--

00:04:03 ◼   ► I guess they were 30 inch for a while,

00:04:05 ◼   ► and then they went to 27 inch.

00:04:06 ◼   ► But I just didn't feel like buying it not to have retina,

00:04:10 ◼   ► knowing that retina would come out any year now.

00:04:12 ◼   ► For years and years and years.

00:04:13 ◼   ► So my, I was using, and that display, after,

00:04:17 ◼   ► it must have been, it had to be at least 10 years old,

00:04:19 ◼   ► and I'd used it every day, had terrible image retention,

00:04:22 ◼   ► and I knew exactly where you were going

00:04:23 ◼   ► because my website was the number one culprit.

00:04:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, 'cause like most, if you're dealing

00:04:28 ◼   ► with other black and white windows,

00:04:30 ◼   ► you don't really see it as often,

00:04:31 ◼   ► but when you've had something black and white

00:04:33 ◼   ► up for a while, and then you switch to a large expanse

00:04:36 ◼   ► of gray, you see it very clearly,

00:04:38 ◼   ► and my initial thought is always,

00:04:41 ◼   ► I didn't realize that Safari was translucent.

00:04:43 ◼   ► - That's exactly what I thought.

00:04:44 ◼   ► - I always think it's like window translucency,

00:04:47 ◼   ► and I'm like, oh, that's a weird design decision.

00:04:49 ◼   ► Oh wait, that isn't a design decision.

00:04:50 ◼   ► - Right, when I first encountered it,

00:04:52 ◼   ► that's exactly what I thought,

00:04:53 ◼   ► is I thought that maybe at some point

00:04:54 ◼   ► I'd hit some kind of weird,

00:04:56 ◼   ► I'd diddled something in the terminal

00:04:58 ◼   ► with defaults right,

00:05:00 ◼   ► translucent, you know,

00:05:01 ◼   ► com.apples.safari/translucency=91,

00:05:06 ◼   ► or something like that.

00:05:08 ◼   ► - Right, exactly.

00:05:09 ◼   ► - 'Cause that's exactly what it looks like.

00:05:11 ◼   ► Sorry about that.

00:05:11 ◼   ► Now that now it's an iMac, and it's my main computer,

00:05:14 ◼   ► and so it's like, I don't want to send this thing

00:05:17 ◼   ► in for repair and not be with my main computer

00:05:19 ◼   ► for like two weeks or however long it takes

00:05:21 ◼   ► to get it actually fixed.

00:05:22 ◼   ► - Two and a half years under even daily use

00:05:24 ◼   ► seems like too soon, honestly.

00:05:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I don't know, and then it's like,

00:05:30 ◼   ► am I gonna get one that has just the same problem?

00:05:32 ◼   ► I'm always worried that they're not even gonna believe me

00:05:34 ◼   ► or that they're not gonna replace it

00:05:35 ◼   ► 'cause they don't think it's bad enough.

00:05:38 ◼   ► Even though I don't have a lot of basis

00:05:41 ◼   ► for those feelings, it's just like,

00:05:42 ◼   ► it's such a hassle to send away my main computer

00:05:46 ◼   ► for repair, especially 'cause it's large.

00:05:49 ◼   ► Like if it's a laptop, I could bring 'em to a Genius Bar

00:05:50 ◼   ► and maybe have something faster, maybe,

00:05:53 ◼   ► but like, because it's such an ordeal

00:05:55 ◼   ► to haul this thing anywhere and ship it anywhere,

00:05:58 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:05:59 ◼   ► My current plan is to just hope that they do something

00:06:03 ◼   ► with like an iMac Pro or a Mac Pro sometime this year

00:06:08 ◼   ► before my AppleCare runs out in October.

00:06:11 ◼   ► And then I can just buy the new one,

00:06:14 ◼   ► send this in for repair,

00:06:16 ◼   ► and then when I get it back from repair, sell it.

00:06:18 ◼   ► - Oh, if you've got AppleCare,

00:06:19 ◼   ► you should definitely do it,

00:06:20 ◼   ► although you have to be without it.

00:06:21 ◼   ► - But it's a pain, yeah.

00:06:22 ◼   ► It's like, I don't wanna switch

00:06:23 ◼   ► to my new crappy keyboard touch bar.

00:06:26 ◼   ► - You know I haven't bought it.

00:06:27 ◼   ► I haven't bought AppleCare since 1991.

00:06:29 ◼   ► - The only reason I bought it on this,

00:06:32 ◼   ► and I'm with you most of the time,

00:06:33 ◼   ► the only reason I bought it on this

00:06:34 ◼   ► is that AppleCare, the pricing is based

00:06:36 ◼   ► on these tiers of the product they apply to.

00:06:40 ◼   ► A $1,400 iMac has the same AppleCare cost

00:06:44 ◼   ► as a $4,500 fully loaded one.

00:06:47 ◼   ► - Right.

00:06:48 ◼   ► - And so, and I was buying the very first generation

00:06:51 ◼   ► of a new thing, of the 5K.

00:06:53 ◼   ► And so I thought, you know what,

00:06:54 ◼   ► it was only like 200 bucks or something.

00:06:56 ◼   ► It was not a lot of money for what was something

00:06:59 ◼   ► like a $4,400 configuration, 'cause I got really maxed out,

00:07:02 ◼   ► 'cause my main computer.

00:07:04 ◼   ► And I figure, you know what, the ratio there pays off.

00:07:06 ◼   ► I don't really get it for anything else,

00:07:08 ◼   ► but in cases where you're buying a really maxed out

00:07:10 ◼   ► config of something, it often does pay off

00:07:13 ◼   ► because it's such a low relative cost.

00:07:15 ◼   ► - I think we might have literally the same machine.

00:07:17 ◼   ► I know I maxed out the RAM, 32 gigs.

00:07:21 ◼   ► And I would have--

00:07:21 ◼   ► - If you have a terabyte.

00:07:22 ◼   ► - Right.

00:07:23 ◼   ► I think I have a terabyte drive,

00:07:26 ◼   ► 'cause I don't know why I wouldn't have bought it,

00:07:27 ◼   ► 'cause it's the only drive I keep attached most of the time.

00:07:30 ◼   ► I actually don't even know.

00:07:33 ◼   ► That's something.

00:07:34 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:07:35 ◼   ► Wow.

00:07:36 ◼   ► - It's gotta be a terabyte.

00:07:37 ◼   ► I don't see how I would be able to function

00:07:39 ◼   ► if it wasn't a terabyte.

00:07:41 ◼   ► And then what I get, the four gigahertz Intel Core i7.

00:07:44 ◼   ► - Yep, yeah, same thing.

00:07:46 ◼   ► Enjoy your wonderful screen.

00:07:49 ◼   ► You will know quickly if it ever becomes a problem.

00:07:51 ◼   ► - Yes, it is a terabyte drive.

00:07:53 ◼   ► 999.38 gigabytes, which is bullshit.

00:07:56 ◼   ► - Oh, you got ripped off.

00:07:57 ◼   ► You didn't get the full terabyte.

00:07:58 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:07:59 ◼   ► Yeah, oh boy.

00:08:01 ◼   ► I just hope I can fix this easily.

00:08:04 ◼   ► I don't know, ATP Tifster said that this was a problem

00:08:07 ◼   ► with the one that we have, the 2014,

00:08:09 ◼   ► but that they fixed it for the 2015 model,

00:08:12 ◼   ► which is still the current model.

00:08:14 ◼   ► But he also says they're gonna have new ones

00:08:15 ◼   ► like in March or whatever, who knows.

00:08:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, we can get to March soon.

00:08:19 ◼   ► We'll have to get to that.

00:08:22 ◼   ► Did you see-- - It kinda sounds like

00:08:23 ◼   ► Apple's gonna release like 15 things in March.

00:08:25 ◼   ► That's kind of what, like all the rumors are pointing to,

00:08:28 ◼   ► Like four iPads, new iMacs, new 12-inch MacBook One,

00:08:33 ◼   ► and new watch bands and who knows what on the software side,

00:08:38 ◼   ► new iPad stuff maybe.

00:08:40 ◼   ► I mean, there is such a giant list of things

00:08:43 ◼   ► that rumor people expect to be launched and marked.

00:08:45 ◼   ► It's kind of ridiculous.

00:08:47 ◼   ► - Did you see this?

00:08:48 ◼   ► I've been meaning to link to it,

00:08:49 ◼   ► and I haven't 'cause I forget why.

00:08:52 ◼   ► I think it might be because I can't find the guy's name.

00:08:54 ◼   ► You and I ran into the same thing

00:08:57 ◼   ► with somebody on Twitter recently,

00:08:58 ◼   ► that guy OMD or something like that, or?

00:09:02 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, he didn't have his name anywhere

00:09:04 ◼   ► on any of his stuff, and we both wanted to link to him

00:09:06 ◼   ► and name him, you know, like he's nice.

00:09:09 ◼   ► - Right, like I always--

00:09:11 ◼   ► - I think he didn't, he responded,

00:09:12 ◼   ► and it's not like he didn't want to be named,

00:09:14 ◼   ► like at least he gave only a first name

00:09:15 ◼   ► or something like that.

00:09:16 ◼   ► - I heard, and he said something like he's building

00:09:17 ◼   ► his brand on OMD or something like that,

00:09:19 ◼   ► and it's harder for me to link to somebody who's anonymous.

00:09:22 ◼   ► And the other thing that really gets me,

00:09:24 ◼   ► And I hate to say it to you, but it's true.

00:09:28 ◼   ► It seems like I link a lot less frequently anymore

00:09:31 ◼   ► to people who have Tumblr blogs, just anecdotally.

00:09:34 ◼   ► But back when Tumblr was sort of at its peak

00:09:36 ◼   ► as a blogging platform-- I'm not saying that Tumblr is

00:09:40 ◼   ► in decline, but I think it's in decline for the sort of blogging

00:09:44 ◼   ► that I tend to link to it during Fireball.

00:09:46 ◼   ► An awful lot of Tumblr sites don't

00:09:48 ◼   ► have the person's real name on.

00:09:51 ◼   ► It's just their Tumblr handle.

00:09:53 ◼   ► And that was always a big hassle for me,

00:09:55 ◼   ► and I'd have to figure out what their Twitter name was

00:09:57 ◼   ► and go to their Twitter page

00:09:59 ◼   ► and find their real name from there.

00:10:00 ◼   ► It didn't even seem like it was people

00:10:02 ◼   ► who were trying to hide their name.

00:10:03 ◼   ► It's just sort of idiomatic for Tumblr.

00:10:06 ◼   ► But anyway, there's this site here.

00:10:07 ◼   ► - No, and that was actually designed that way.

00:10:09 ◼   ► We meant it to be,

00:10:11 ◼   ► like it's the same way that one account

00:10:14 ◼   ► could have multiple blogs,

00:10:16 ◼   ► and that there would be no way to tell,

00:10:18 ◼   ► unless you put it there,

00:10:20 ◼   ► which blogs belong to which account.

00:10:22 ◼   ► - Right, right.

00:10:23 ◼   ► it was very easy to create anonymous things

00:10:26 ◼   ► that weren't tied to your main identity,

00:10:28 ◼   ► and that was very much intentional.

00:10:30 ◼   ► Because like everything else at the time,

00:10:32 ◼   ► keep in mind we made Tumblr as kind of a response

00:10:35 ◼   ► to Myspace and Facebook and the big social networks

00:10:39 ◼   ► that were big when we started it in 2006.

00:10:42 ◼   ► And so Twitter wasn't really,

00:10:43 ◼   ► Twitter existed but it wasn't big.

00:10:45 ◼   ► So it was really a response to those

00:10:46 ◼   ► that were all about getting your real name

00:10:48 ◼   ► and putting all your stuff out in public

00:10:50 ◼   ► under your real name.

00:10:51 ◼   ► And a lot of people can't or won't give their real name

00:10:56 ◼   ► for a lot of the stuff they want to do online.

00:10:57 ◼   ► And so you enable a lot more creativity

00:11:02 ◼   ► and different types of uses if you allow people

00:11:05 ◼   ► to be anonymous.

00:11:06 ◼   ► So that was kind of like the ethos from the beginning

00:11:08 ◼   ► of you can make a different blog, it's no risk,

00:11:11 ◼   ► it's not gonna look bad upon you.

00:11:14 ◼   ► This was before all the hate crap that we have today.

00:11:17 ◼   ► Today it might be a little bit different calculation there.

00:11:19 ◼   ► But back then, most of the hate was confined to these fringe forms and stuff, and they weren't really on Tumblr.

00:11:24 ◼   ► I don't even know what they are now. I don't think they are. But regardless, the idea of getting an anonymous identity out there very, very easily was quite a positive thing in 2006.

00:11:36 ◼   ► Anyway, I just sent you the link. It's to a guy named Thomas Verschorin at Verschorin.com.

00:11:42 ◼   ► He has a Twitter link, so I got his name from there. But anyway, he has an interesting speculation here that

00:11:47 ◼   ► it's purely his guess. He's not claiming any sort of sources.

00:11:52 ◼   ► But what he's saying is that when Apple made standalone displays, they tend to sell them for a long time.

00:11:57 ◼   ► The 27-inch LED display was on sale for three years. The 27-inch Thunderbolt display was on sale for five years.

00:12:03 ◼   ► for five years, I guess they're still selling it?

00:12:05 ◼   ► Or do they still sell that, right?

00:12:07 ◼   ► I don't even know.

00:12:08 ◼   ► - No, no, no, they just continued

00:12:10 ◼   ► like a year and a half ago or something.

00:12:11 ◼   ► - So you can't even buy an outdated Apple Display

00:12:14 ◼   ► at this point?

00:12:14 ◼   ► - No, I mean, you might be able to find somebody

00:12:16 ◼   ► who has one in stock, but they haven't sold them new

00:12:18 ◼   ► for a while. - Cancel.

00:12:19 ◼   ► So here's his guess, is his guess is that Apple

00:12:25 ◼   ► didn't wanna release a 5K standalone cinema display

00:12:28 ◼   ► back in October when they did all the new MacBooks

00:12:31 ◼   ► that could use them because they weren't yet ready

00:12:34 ◼   ► to sell one with True Tone,

00:12:36 ◼   ► because they don't have True Tone in the iMac either.

00:12:38 ◼   ► None of the desktop Macs do.

00:12:40 ◼   ► And so, as he says here, his conclusion,

00:12:42 ◼   ► if you were Apple, what would you choose to do?

00:12:44 ◼   ► Release an Apple 5K Cinema Display in 2016

00:12:48 ◼   ► and then sell it for a few years unchanged without True Tone

00:12:52 ◼   ► or push the LG display in 2016 as a stopgap

00:12:56 ◼   ► and release an Apple 5K True Tone display sometime in 2017.

00:13:01 ◼   ► So is anybody who's still holding onto a thread of hope

00:13:05 ◼   ► that Apple hasn't abandoned the standalone display game, which

00:13:08 ◼   ► I would not bet on.

00:13:09 ◼   ► I kind of suspect that they are done.

00:13:12 ◼   ► But there's a wee bit of sense here, in my opinion.

00:13:17 ◼   ► I mean, so the thing about they tend

00:13:19 ◼   ► to have these displays that last for a certain amount of time.

00:13:22 ◼   ► Throw that right out, doesn't matter.

00:13:23 ◼   ► It doesn't matter how long things have been out,

00:13:25 ◼   ► like five years.

00:13:26 ◼   ► This is a very small sample size.

00:13:28 ◼   ► Apple does not artificially hold things back

00:13:30 ◼   ► simply because the last one is only three years old

00:13:32 ◼   ► instead of four years old or whatever.

00:13:34 ◼   ► Like that's, this is too small of a correlation to matter

00:13:38 ◼   ► and that's not how they really work.

00:13:39 ◼   ► I think the only question here is

00:13:42 ◼   ► whether we believe that they would hold back this display

00:13:45 ◼   ► and go through the kind of,

00:13:48 ◼   ► and assume the LG display was perfect, which it isn't,

00:13:51 ◼   ► but assume the LG display was perfect,

00:13:52 ◼   ► they still took a big PR hit

00:13:55 ◼   ► in order to push that as the solution

00:13:57 ◼   ► and to have the idea out there

00:13:59 ◼   ► unchallenged for months and still so far that they are out of this display

00:14:03 ◼   ► business. Yeah but what if they had no choice? Is that more like is that

00:14:07 ◼   ► is that more likely than them wanting to save True Tone for the iMac? They don't

00:14:12 ◼   ► sell them any iMacs, they sell a lot more laptops. It would not surprise me if when

00:14:17 ◼   ► the Thunderbolt display that they just when they discontinued recently, that one

00:14:22 ◼   ► when it was new, it wouldn't surprise me if that outsold the iMac when it was new.

00:14:27 ◼   ► It might not, but they sell a lot of laptops.

00:14:31 ◼   ► And they sell a lot of these displays for laptops,

00:14:33 ◼   ► for their laptops.

00:14:35 ◼   ► And so I don't see them holding back something

00:14:39 ◼   ► that their customers very clearly want,

00:14:42 ◼   ► replacing a product that was incredibly out of date,

00:14:45 ◼   ► only for the purpose of one of its really minor features,

00:14:50 ◼   ► like jumping ahead of the iMac getting that same feature.

00:14:53 ◼   ► It doesn't seem like that would be important enough to them

00:14:55 ◼   ► to justify all the downsides of that strategy.

00:14:57 ◼   ► What if the original plan though was like a year in advance or well over a year ago

00:15:01 ◼   ► if they had hoped to also have 5k IMAX at the end of 2016 too with True Tone and the

00:15:08 ◼   ► whole thing just fell apart?

00:15:09 ◼   ► Maybe.

00:15:10 ◼   ► That's plausible but it just seems—

00:15:12 ◼   ► I'm not saying how likely it is but the whole thing seems plausible to me that it's

00:15:16 ◼   ► some sort of engineering/supply chain screw up or you know maybe screw up is too harsh

00:15:23 ◼   ► of a word but something didn't go according to plan and that's where they are.

00:15:26 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:15:27 ◼   ► I still love it.

00:15:28 ◼   ► I brought it up the other week on this show.

00:15:29 ◼   ► And there must be an awful lot of people

00:15:31 ◼   ► who listen to my show who don't listen to ATP,

00:15:33 ◼   ► because I got so much--

00:15:35 ◼   ► the best feedback I got was that the observation--

00:15:39 ◼   ► I got so much email about ripping off

00:15:41 ◼   ► Syracuse's observation from ATP, which I did credit him with,

00:15:45 ◼   ► that what does Apple plan to do in their beautiful new campus?

00:15:48 ◼   ► Stuff all of these--

00:15:49 ◼   ► which supposedly has a more open floor plan, where you'll see

00:15:53 ◼   ► more of your colleagues' desks.

00:15:55 ◼   ► Are they going to put one of these ugly LG monitors

00:15:59 ◼   ► on every single one of these Johnny Ive designed desks?

00:16:02 ◼   ► Like Johnny Ive is bought these off in the woods,

00:16:05 ◼   ► nailing desks together out of wood

00:16:08 ◼   ► that comes from one special brand of tree

00:16:10 ◼   ► that grows in northern Italy or something.

00:16:13 ◼   ► And they're going to put ugly LG monitors on all these desks?

00:16:18 ◼   ► And that's also a good counterargument.

00:16:20 ◼   ► But I think it's just as likely that you could just say,

00:16:23 ◼   ► well, their solution is just they're

00:16:24 ◼   ► you're gonna give most of their engineers and stuff,

00:16:26 ◼   ► like iMacs.

00:16:27 ◼   ► It really does seem like,

00:16:30 ◼   ► and again, this could be blown under the water

00:16:33 ◼   ► when Apple releases a brand new Mac Pro, iMac Pro,

00:16:35 ◼   ► whatever it is in July, but I think that's very unlikely.

00:16:38 ◼   ► I think if that was gonna happen,

00:16:40 ◼   ► we would have a lot more than casual speculation

00:16:42 ◼   ► about it by now.

00:16:43 ◼   ► The fact that there's nothing in the pipeline

00:16:46 ◼   ► to suggest that's happening makes me believe

00:16:48 ◼   ► it's definitely not happening this year, if ever.

00:16:51 ◼   ► And so I really do think it's very clear

00:16:53 ◼   ► that we all have wishful thinking

00:16:56 ◼   ► that goes in a different direction,

00:16:57 ◼   ► but the reality is it's most likely

00:17:00 ◼   ► that Apple really is out of the display business

00:17:02 ◼   ► and the Pro Desktop business and the Mac Mini business

00:17:06 ◼   ► and is really just gonna make the iMac and the MacBook Pro

00:17:09 ◼   ► their only computers going forward.

00:17:11 ◼   ► - I've heard that, I think I figured

00:17:13 ◼   ► if I've talked about this,

00:17:14 ◼   ► I've heard that there is a new Mac Pro in the pipeline,

00:17:17 ◼   ► but that it is, it sounds ridiculous,

00:17:21 ◼   ► but that it's effectively in a slot

00:17:24 ◼   ► where there's so many other machines,

00:17:26 ◼   ► whether they're Macs or other things,

00:17:27 ◼   ► that are getting testing and validation engineering

00:17:31 ◼   ► resources ahead of it,

00:17:33 ◼   ► that there's no way it's gonna ship by WWDC.

00:17:36 ◼   ► Which seems ridiculous, but.

00:17:38 ◼   ► - Well, yeah.

00:17:38 ◼   ► Even if they, I mean, here's the thing.

00:17:42 ◼   ► Most people who feel bad about Apple

00:17:47 ◼   ► because of the lack of Mac Pro updates at all,

00:17:50 ◼   ► they don't necessarily need it to ship at WDC.

00:17:53 ◼   ► I think what would calm a lot of fears, my own included,

00:17:56 ◼   ► would just be an acknowledgement and confirmation

00:17:59 ◼   ► that something else is coming.

00:18:01 ◼   ► Just confirmation, even if it's one of their BSE replies

00:18:04 ◼   ► to the press, keep an eye out, this space,

00:18:07 ◼   ► you know, whatever else, something.

00:18:10 ◼   ► And Tim Cook's little Q&A response

00:18:12 ◼   ► to that internal bulletin board thing a few months back,

00:18:14 ◼   ► that wasn't enough.

00:18:15 ◼   ► That was actually, in fact, making things worse, I think,

00:18:17 ◼   ► by kind of implying that the iMac was gonna be it,

00:18:20 ◼   ► going forward. That's all we really want here. But again, I just, it's what I want to be

00:18:27 ◼   ► true. I want there to be a new Mac Pro of some sort. And if it's shaped like an iMac,

00:18:34 ◼   ► and it has a built-in 5K screen, and it just has a Xeon processor in it with like a thicker

00:18:38 ◼   ► back for a bigger heatsink, that's fine. I'll take that. That actually sounds kind of nice

00:18:42 ◼   ► to me. It wouldn't be as ideal as standalone, because then I'd have the same problem I have

00:18:45 ◼   ► now when it gets image retention, and I have to send the whole thing in. But I'd take it.

00:18:49 ◼   ► It's better than nothing, that'd be great.

00:18:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, and it leads to weird situations.

00:18:54 ◼   ► I mean, again, better than nothing if they made an iMac Pro

00:18:57 ◼   ► and somehow put a Xeon in there and solved the heat problems

00:19:01 ◼   ► that that would, you know,

00:19:02 ◼   ► I say that's technically possible.

00:19:04 ◼   ► The biggest-- - Well, and I think

00:19:07 ◼   ► it's possible, although, talking to ATB Tipster

00:19:10 ◼   ► about this a little bit in our chat a few weeks ago,

00:19:12 ◼   ► he pointed out that the logic board in the iMac

00:19:15 ◼   ► faces the wrong way to really make that happen.

00:19:18 ◼   ► I think the CPU faces towards you when you're sitting at it.

00:19:21 ◼   ► And to drastically improve the heat capacity

00:19:25 ◼   ► to be able to cool a high-powered Xeon chip

00:19:27 ◼   ► to make it more Mac Pro class processing power,

00:19:30 ◼   ► you need to flip the whole logic board around,

00:19:31 ◼   ► which is kind of be like a redesign

00:19:33 ◼   ► on the level of a whole new iMac generation.

00:19:36 ◼   ► So the question is, would Apple really do that

00:19:39 ◼   ► for this relatively low volume,

00:19:42 ◼   ► I mean, I guess they designed a whole case before,

00:19:44 ◼   ► but it sure does seem like they couldn't possibly care less

00:19:49 ◼   ► about keeping the Mac Pro updated in any reasonable fashion.

00:19:52 ◼   ► And so it really, it's a pretty big question

00:19:55 ◼   ► whether they would basically redesign

00:19:57 ◼   ► the entire iMac enclosure and a whole new computer

00:20:01 ◼   ► just for this line that they haven't given two craps about

00:20:04 ◼   ► for three years.

00:20:05 ◼   ► - It's a real mystery.

00:20:07 ◼   ► I think it's possible, I think the iMac Pro is possible

00:20:11 ◼   ► or that they'll sell it as a Pro somehow.

00:20:14 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:20:15 ◼   ► But--

00:20:16 ◼   ► I hope-- I wish for it to be true, but I just don't see it.

00:20:19 ◼   ► But there's got to be a reason why they don't just

00:20:22 ◼   ► stop selling the Mac Pros.

00:20:23 ◼   ► There's some contingent within the company that's clearly

00:20:26 ◼   ► hoping for new Mac Pros.

00:20:28 ◼   ► Otherwise, it would be easier.

00:20:30 ◼   ► It would be easier, and they'd look less foolish

00:20:33 ◼   ► if they had canceled the Mac Pro like it last WWDC,

00:20:36 ◼   ► if they had just said, hey, these new iMacs are so great,

00:20:38 ◼   ► that it's all that-- the time for the standalone is gone,

00:20:43 ◼   ► whatever, people would disagree, obviously,

00:20:45 ◼   ► and there'd be people who'd be heartbroken,

00:20:47 ◼   ► and there'd be people who were furious,

00:20:48 ◼   ► but at least Apple wouldn't look foolish, right?

00:20:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, 'cause it really looks bad now.

00:20:53 ◼   ► Like, it really, the situation now is

00:20:55 ◼   ► egregiously bad.

00:20:58 ◼   ► It's kind of embarrassing.

00:21:00 ◼   ► - It's hard to believe.

00:21:01 ◼   ► It's really kind of hard to believe how old it is.

00:21:03 ◼   ► It really is.

00:21:04 ◼   ► And still my biggest regret is that I didn't ask Schiller

00:21:08 ◼   ► about it on stage last year, and I had the card.

00:21:10 ◼   ► I had it on a card, and I did not.

00:21:14 ◼   ► Some people understand, but it's so hard

00:21:16 ◼   ► to keep that thing going live.

00:21:18 ◼   ► And it's my one and only regret from that whole show.

00:21:22 ◼   ► The year before, when Schiller was on the first time,

00:21:25 ◼   ► I had way more regrets afterwards.

00:21:26 ◼   ► And I felt like my self-criticism really helped,

00:21:30 ◼   ► and I did a better job last year.

00:21:31 ◼   ► But my one-- oh, I can't believe it.

00:21:35 ◼   ► And now look at this.

00:21:36 ◼   ► We're already at the point where WWDC has been announced again,

00:21:39 ◼   ► and it still hasn't been answered.

00:21:41 ◼   ► And the one reason why I put it at a lower priority at first,

00:21:45 ◼   ► and then towards the end when I was wrapping up,

00:21:47 ◼   ► I was flipping through the cards I had left,

00:21:50 ◼   ► and I didn't see that one, which I might have,

00:21:53 ◼   ► is like a last question.

00:21:54 ◼   ► But the reason I originally had it lower in the stack

00:21:57 ◼   ► was I thought, well, they've got to do something in September,

00:21:59 ◼   ► right?

00:22:00 ◼   ► [LAUGHTER]

00:22:04 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:22:04 ◼   ► I can get them on the record now,

00:22:06 ◼   ► It's only for the next two, three months.

00:22:09 ◼   ► So anyway, I don't know.

00:22:10 ◼   ► - Well, and it's hard.

00:22:12 ◼   ► When you're in a situation like what you're doing

00:22:15 ◼   ► with these executive interviews, it's hard.

00:22:18 ◼   ► And we got a little bit of this from when ATP interviewed

00:22:22 ◼   ► Chris Lattner a few weeks ago.

00:22:23 ◼   ► - Which was great, by the way.

00:22:25 ◼   ► - And we had a couple people ask us afterwards

00:22:28 ◼   ► on Twitter and email and stuff,

00:22:29 ◼   ► why didn't you ask me about the Mac Pro?

00:22:31 ◼   ► - Oh, you can't.

00:22:34 ◼   ► Yeah, it's like, A, even if he knew about Mac Pro stuff,

00:22:39 ◼   ► you know, you're not gonna answer that.

00:22:41 ◼   ► And B, the guy who writes the compiler

00:22:44 ◼   ► probably has no clue about what the Mac Pro hardware team

00:22:47 ◼   ► is doing and what might or might not be released

00:22:49 ◼   ► in that department.

00:22:50 ◼   ► Like, it's a big company.

00:22:51 ◼   ► And so like, anyway, your context,

00:22:54 ◼   ► like interviewing Schiller on stage,

00:22:55 ◼   ► like, it's tough to know whether you should bust out

00:23:00 ◼   ► a question like that which is slightly antagonizing

00:23:03 ◼   ► and really puts them on the spot.

00:23:06 ◼   ► 'Cause like, there's a very good chance

00:23:09 ◼   ► that you would just get like a non-answer,

00:23:12 ◼   ► you know, just like a nice PR-friendly non-answer,

00:23:14 ◼   ► kind of like Tim Cook's post,

00:23:15 ◼   ► like we really love desktops,

00:23:17 ◼   ► we have great desktops coming in the future,

00:23:18 ◼   ► you know, like stuff like that.

00:23:19 ◼   ► And that's not very helpful,

00:23:21 ◼   ► and then you've just like shifted the tone of the interview

00:23:24 ◼   ► in a way that now they are on edge

00:23:27 ◼   ► or are less likely to go to you in the future.

00:23:29 ◼   ► So it's a tricky balance.

00:23:32 ◼   ► So I don't blame you for not asking that last year.

00:23:34 ◼   ► - No, but it wasn't because I thought it was--

00:23:35 ◼   ► - I wouldn't blame you for not asking it this year.

00:23:36 ◼   ► - Yeah, this year it would have to happen.

00:23:38 ◼   ► - This year's gonna be the first question you ask.

00:23:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, but watch, I'll end up getting,

00:23:43 ◼   ► I don't know, somebody that has nothing to do

00:23:46 ◼   ► with Mac hardware or something like that.

00:23:48 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:23:50 ◼   ► - You can get Chris Ladder.

00:23:51 ◼   ► - Right, like all of a sudden

00:23:52 ◼   ► Schiller doesn't return my calls.

00:23:53 ◼   ► No, I would have, 'cause there's ways to ask it,

00:23:58 ◼   ► and I feel like that's something that I,

00:24:01 ◼   ► maybe why I've gotten to this position where I can do this,

00:24:04 ◼   ► is where I can ask the question, but do it in a way that's not

00:24:07 ◼   ► confrontational.

00:24:09 ◼   ► I mean, the framing I would have used is, look,

00:24:11 ◼   ► this audience in particular is largely

00:24:15 ◼   ► comprised of people who use Xcode, which

00:24:16 ◼   ► is one of the apps where every bit of CPU power

00:24:21 ◼   ► can really help at times.

00:24:24 ◼   ► And we're in this transition moving towards from Objective-C

00:24:29 ◼   ► to Swift.

00:24:29 ◼   ► Swift, I think it's fair to say, is more taxing on the CPU than Objective-C. It seems like

00:24:35 ◼   ► the Swift compiler is, you know, you can write Swift code that takes a lot longer to compile,

00:24:40 ◼   ► but whatever, it certainly isn't easy to compile. And there's just a general sentiment that

00:24:47 ◼   ► Apple's priorities for pro hardware in general are lower than they used to be. The Mac Pro

00:24:56 ◼   ► is I don't know, whatever it was, 900 days old at this time,

00:24:59 ◼   ► after an incredibly splashy debut.

00:25:02 ◼   ► What the heck is going on here?

00:25:03 ◼   ► I don't think that is making-- it's not

00:25:06 ◼   ► like I'm putting him on the spot.

00:25:07 ◼   ► And he can easily say-- and maybe that's all he would have

00:25:10 ◼   ► said is, hey, we love you guys.

00:25:13 ◼   ► We got you.

00:25:14 ◼   ► But you know I can't talk about future stuff.

00:25:17 ◼   ► I don't have anything to say about it.

00:25:18 ◼   ► And then that's the end of it.

00:25:22 ◼   ► So it's possible, but at least I would have asked.

00:25:24 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:25:26 ◼   ► Anyway, there's always there's always future executive podcast interviews live at everybody. I loved the latner interview, by the way

00:25:32 ◼   ► I don't I it was really and especially for a show that

00:25:35 ◼   ► Almost never does interviews. I mean you guys never

00:25:41 ◼   ► I thought there was one a long time ago or no, I guess you guys swapped you guys swapped with another show

00:25:47 ◼   ► Yeah, we had John trade spots with Christina Warren right for one episode

00:25:50 ◼   ► Which actually turned out really nice, but it wasn't really an interview show

00:25:52 ◼   ► It's just like she just was another host on our show for that episode, right?

00:25:55 ◼   ► You know, I thought that for a show that has an established rhythm between the three of you

00:26:00 ◼   ► in which really none of it is really interview style and there's an incredible comfort level between your

00:26:06 ◼   ► personalities to have somebody new on and

00:26:09 ◼   ► Do a three-way interview where it eats all three of you asked good questions

00:26:14 ◼   ► I thought it was really impressive because that's hard to do because it was a really different show. Yeah

00:26:20 ◼   ► It's like all of a sudden instead of driving a car you're you're riding bicycles or something

00:26:23 ◼   ► Yeah, it was a lot of fun though and Chris was you know

00:26:28 ◼   ► He made it easy on us like he wasn't like a prima donna about anything and you know

00:26:32 ◼   ► Just really easy to work with and a super nice guy. That was a lot of fun. Yeah, he is it's you know, it's

00:26:38 ◼   ► You know, it's obviously not true from top to bottom

00:26:40 ◼   ► But it is generally true that Apple tends to attract very nice people. There are yeah

00:26:48 ◼   ► You know, I mean Federighi is a great example where you know, I don't know what he's like in real personal life

00:26:52 ◼   ► But you know like backstage and stuff like that and when you see him at WWDC and and people come up and and you know

00:26:59 ◼   ► Just random attendees are like, hey, can I get a selfie or whatever?

00:27:02 ◼   ► He stops and talks for you know, five minutes with them and asks what they're doing

00:27:05 ◼   ► He he comes across like talking to a group of five

00:27:09 ◼   ► You know first time in WWDC at WWDC attendees wearing the WWDC jacket

00:27:16 ◼   ► He comes across exactly with the same demeanor that he has on stage. So like that affection that people seem to have for him

00:27:21 ◼   ► It's true. That seems to be his personality and Latiners exactly that type of personalities

00:27:26 ◼   ► He's you know, just just a nice guy

00:27:28 ◼   ► Yeah, did I ever did I tell you about last year WC when I visited apples and Facebook's campuses in the same day? Yeah

00:27:36 ◼   ► It all sort of blurs together

00:27:39 ◼   ► I remember you doing it, but I don't remember what the details were really interesting like so

00:27:43 ◼   ► - Yeah, in both cases, me and Casey

00:27:47 ◼   ► and a couple other friends, we had a friend

00:27:50 ◼   ► at each company that wanted to just give us

00:27:53 ◼   ► a quick tour, let us in, and show us around,

00:27:55 ◼   ► and stuff like that, and Apple, I only saw

00:27:57 ◼   ► the center courtyard and Cafe Max,

00:28:01 ◼   ► 'cause you can't bring people into the buildings,

00:28:03 ◼   ► really, there.

00:28:04 ◼   ► - Frowned upon.

00:28:06 ◼   ► - Yeah, exactly, so I didn't see any actual offices,

00:28:09 ◼   ► but I was able to see the courtyard and hang out

00:28:11 ◼   ► and have lunch with everybody there,

00:28:13 ◼   ► and we had lunch with something like 15 people

00:28:15 ◼   ► at this giant table.

00:28:16 ◼   ► So I got to meet a lot of people there

00:28:18 ◼   ► and hang out for a good amount of time

00:28:20 ◼   ► and they have pretty good coffee at Apple,

00:28:21 ◼   ► even at Cafe Max, I gotta say.

00:28:23 ◼   ► And kind of get a feel for the vibe of the campus,

00:28:27 ◼   ► even though I didn't see any offices.

00:28:28 ◼   ► And then a couple hours later we went to Facebook

00:28:31 ◼   ► and I had never been to either of these campuses before.

00:28:34 ◼   ► I had been to the Apple retail store,

00:28:36 ◼   ► but I'd never gone through the doors into the courtyard.

00:28:40 ◼   ► And I'm actually not sure I was allowed to.

00:28:42 ◼   ► They have some kind of weird rules about bloggers,

00:28:44 ◼   ► but I think I'm just under--

00:28:46 ◼   ► like, I'm not really officially Apple Press in any capacity.

00:28:49 ◼   ► I never have been.

00:28:50 ◼   ► And so I think that's why it wasn't a problem

00:28:52 ◼   ► that I was there.

00:28:53 ◼   ► Because I had a friend who tried to go--

00:28:56 ◼   ► who was Apple Press and was not allowed in.

00:28:58 ◼   ► So that was interesting.

00:29:00 ◼   ► But anyway, so seeing Apple and then seeing Facebook

00:29:07 ◼   ► could not have been two more different company culture

00:29:11 ◼   ► environments, at least visibly from these brief visits I did. And Facebook, I just

00:29:18 ◼   ► felt horrible the whole time I was there. Like, I felt kind of creeped out and

00:29:23 ◼   ► intimidated by just how bizarre and kind of intense, high energy but not high

00:29:30 ◼   ► positive energy it seemed to be. Like, just really like, I don't know, it's hard to

00:29:36 ◼   ► explain. I really did, I really got a very bad feeling from Facebook. A

00:29:39 ◼   ► combination of like how does anybody get any work done here

00:29:43 ◼   ► and where are the adults and and it just didn't feel good. It

00:29:48 ◼   ► felt like a dysfunctional workaholic culture that was

00:29:51 ◼   ► hard to get any real work done in an in an environment. That's

00:29:54 ◼   ► kind of weirdly like like trapped in youth forever

00:29:58 ◼   ► bizarro college fantasy world and then Apple was so like calm

00:30:05 ◼   ► and adult and just like nicely like low key.

00:30:08 ◼   ► The people there were just like nice and calm.

00:30:11 ◼   ► And it kind of felt like, oh, this is where the adults work.

00:30:14 ◼   ► Like this is like where people come

00:30:17 ◼   ► to actually do serious work.

00:30:19 ◼   ► And it was a much, it just,

00:30:21 ◼   ► whatever the environment actually is,

00:30:24 ◼   ► again, because I've never worked at these companies

00:30:26 ◼   ► and didn't even go inside the offices at Apple,

00:30:28 ◼   ► it's hard for me to really say this,

00:30:30 ◼   ► but it just felt like the little tiny windows

00:30:34 ◼   ► into these cultures I saw really just seemed like

00:30:37 ◼   ► Apple was the place where the nice, mature adults

00:30:41 ◼   ► go to work.

00:30:42 ◼   ► - Mm, I could see that.

00:30:43 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:30:45 ◼   ► It definitely seems like people who go to Apple,

00:30:48 ◼   ► company cultures attract like-minded people,

00:30:53 ◼   ► but it does seem to me, in general,

00:30:54 ◼   ► like when I've been there,

00:30:56 ◼   ► people know how to turn it off,

00:30:58 ◼   ► that when you're going to lunch

00:31:00 ◼   ► and they're gonna have lunch with a friend,

00:31:01 ◼   ► they're just having lunch with a friend.

00:31:04 ◼   ► - Right, yeah.

00:31:05 ◼   ► - Get back up to speed when they get back to work

00:31:07 ◼   ► or whatever.

00:31:08 ◼   ► - I mean, I'll tell you one thing.

00:31:10 ◼   ► I don't hear a lot of stories about Facebook and Apple

00:31:13 ◼   ► stealing talent from each other,

00:31:15 ◼   ► and maybe that's 'cause I don't really pay attention,

00:31:16 ◼   ► but I'll tell you one thing, seeing them both those places,

00:31:19 ◼   ► I cannot imagine that anybody who works for one

00:31:22 ◼   ► would want to work for the other in either direction.

00:31:25 ◼   ► Like, I don't think they're competing

00:31:26 ◼   ► for the same people at all.

00:31:28 ◼   ► - Yeah, I've never really heard that either.

00:31:30 ◼   ► I mean, and obviously at a certain level,

00:31:32 ◼   ► There's probably some like maybe like sysadmins

00:31:35 ◼   ► or something like that.

00:31:36 ◼   ► But, and you know what, there was that one team at Facebook

00:31:39 ◼   ► that was largely poached from Apple,

00:31:40 ◼   ► but now they're all dispersed, right?

00:31:42 ◼   ► They're gone.

00:31:43 ◼   ► The mic man is--

00:31:44 ◼   ► - All the designers, yeah, they bought a bunch of designers

00:31:45 ◼   ► for a while and then just slowly eroded their sanity

00:31:48 ◼   ► until they all quit.

00:31:49 ◼   ► - Right, and they built a very Apple-like beautiful system

00:31:53 ◼   ► and custom tools to support it with Facebook paper

00:31:55 ◼   ► or whatever they call, whether it was just paper

00:31:58 ◼   ► or Facebook paper or whatever.

00:31:59 ◼   ► - One of the names they stole, yeah, it's fine.

00:32:02 ◼   ► - Well, but you know what I mean.

00:32:04 ◼   ► It's a tough call because the paper app,

00:32:08 ◼   ► the other paper app, the one that you draw on,

00:32:10 ◼   ► was there first.

00:32:11 ◼   ► But it's the risk you take when you

00:32:13 ◼   ► pick a regular, a plain word is your app name.

00:32:17 ◼   ► - It seemed like for a while there,

00:32:19 ◼   ► Facebook was just gobbling up as much design talent

00:32:22 ◼   ► as they could at about the same time

00:32:23 ◼   ► that Google was gobbling up as much email talent

00:32:25 ◼   ► as they could.

00:32:26 ◼   ► And it seems like both of those have just kind of fizzled

00:32:28 ◼   ► and faded over the last year or so.

00:32:30 ◼   ► I haven't heard anything about them recently.

00:32:32 ◼   ► - I think in broad terms what happened

00:32:34 ◼   ► was that there was a period where Zuckerberg,

00:32:36 ◼   ► I think it coincides with,

00:32:38 ◼   ► 'cause if there's one, I don't get Facebook,

00:32:43 ◼   ► I've never signed up for it.

00:32:44 ◼   ► And so I'm not, it does feel foreign to me.

00:32:48 ◼   ► It feels like studying a foreign country.

00:32:51 ◼   ► But from my observations, it is clear,

00:32:54 ◼   ► I don't think there could be any question

00:32:55 ◼   ► that Zuckerberg has a tremendous gift for changing his mind.

00:32:59 ◼   ► People often said that about Steve Jobs.

00:33:02 ◼   ► Tim Cook has often, when he talks about working

00:33:05 ◼   ► with Steve Jobs, usually just talks about him

00:33:08 ◼   ► on a personal level, but if you can get him talking

00:33:10 ◼   ► about working, Tim Cook tells stories about his

00:33:14 ◼   ► absolutely amazing ability to change his mind.

00:33:16 ◼   ► But the Steve Jobs style is that when he comes in

00:33:19 ◼   ► with his mind change, he acts as though it was

00:33:21 ◼   ► his opinion all along.

00:33:22 ◼   ► And I think Bill Gates had some of that too, right?

00:33:26 ◼   ► Like when Bill Gates famously, like Microsoft

00:33:29 ◼   ► building this early '90s strategy to sort of do their own custom stuff for connecting

00:33:34 ◼   ► computers to each other. And then all of a sudden, Gates writes like a 10-page manifesto

00:33:39 ◼   ► that we've got to get on this internet thing. And all of a sudden, I mean, how long did

00:33:43 ◼   ► it take for Explorer to decimate Netscape? Didn't take long.

00:33:49 ◼   ► Yeah, but at the same time, they made an active desktop. So I don't know if that was a net

00:33:53 ◼   ► win.

00:33:54 ◼   ► I'm not saying that it was seamlessly executed. I'm just saying that we did change his mind.

00:33:59 ◼   ► And the broad strokes Facebook was a website.

00:34:04 ◼   ► It was a website you went to and you did all these things.

00:34:06 ◼   ► And the iPhone came out.

00:34:08 ◼   ► And an awful lot of products that

00:34:10 ◼   ► were popular websites in 2007 in the iPhone era

00:34:17 ◼   ► just weren't getting the engagement that things that

00:34:20 ◼   ► could be done as a native app got.

00:34:23 ◼   ► And--

00:34:23 ◼   ► Oh, yeah.

00:34:25 ◼   ► Not to go too far off into the weeds, but one reason

00:34:27 ◼   ► is that an awful lot of websites were built.

00:34:30 ◼   ► I don't think this is true anymore because mobile is--

00:34:32 ◼   ► I don't think anybody overlooks it.

00:34:34 ◼   ► But the back end of the website was inextricably tied

00:34:37 ◼   ► to the front end of the website.

00:34:39 ◼   ► And instead of having everything go through nice APIs,

00:34:42 ◼   ► even the front end of the website,

00:34:43 ◼   ► so that you could make clients for other devices,

00:34:47 ◼   ► like a native Mac client, or-- and people would say,

00:34:52 ◼   ► well, I forget.

00:34:52 ◼   ► You don't need a native Mac or Windows client.

00:34:54 ◼   ► We'll just go through the web browser.

00:34:55 ◼   ► And for a lot of things, for a lot of years, that was fine.

00:34:57 ◼   ► But then with the phone, that wasn't good enough.

00:34:59 ◼   ► And Facebook had an app that was largely just

00:35:02 ◼   ► a front end for HTML and JavaScript.

00:35:05 ◼   ► And then they seemed to get it.

00:35:06 ◼   ► And it's from Zuckerberg on down that, no, we

00:35:09 ◼   ► should do this with as much native stuff as we can.

00:35:12 ◼   ► This app is important.

00:35:13 ◼   ► This is more important than our website.

00:35:16 ◼   ► And that's around when he hired all those designers.

00:35:18 ◼   ► And I think there was sort of a look.

00:35:21 ◼   ► Apple's a company to look at.

00:35:23 ◼   ► they value A+ design talent, maybe we should too.

00:35:28 ◼   ► And then I think in the intervening years,

00:35:30 ◼   ► Facebook realized that that wasn't really

00:35:32 ◼   ► that important to them.

00:35:34 ◼   ► That the native part was, but the design caliber wasn't.

00:35:38 ◼   ► - Or rather, I think it seemed like there was

00:35:41 ◼   ► a lot of trouble, you know, like they were able

00:35:43 ◼   ► to get the talent, but just, you know,

00:35:45 ◼   ► by applying sheer force of will and lots of money,

00:35:48 ◼   ► they were able to get the talent.

00:35:49 ◼   ► But then the question is, well, what do you have,

00:35:50 ◼   ► all these incredibly talented people do at Facebook.

00:35:54 ◼   ► And that was, it seemed like they had a harder time

00:35:57 ◼   ► having a good answer to that question

00:35:59 ◼   ► and maintaining that over time.

00:36:01 ◼   ► But who knows, it's hard to keep good people interested

00:36:05 ◼   ► in working for a giant established product.

00:36:08 ◼   ► You know, like Apple has this problem too.

00:36:10 ◼   ► Like once you have something that's big and successful

00:36:12 ◼   ► and boring like Facebook or the iPhone,

00:36:14 ◼   ► it's hard to get people interested in working on that,

00:36:18 ◼   ► the same kind of people who would make something like that

00:36:19 ◼   ► 'cause they wanna go make something else.

00:36:21 ◼   ► - Yeah, I know Mike Mattis a little bit,

00:36:23 ◼   ► and I haven't spoken to him much since he left Facebook,

00:36:28 ◼   ► so I'm just sort of speculating here,

00:36:31 ◼   ► but I know from a couple of the people on the team

00:36:33 ◼   ► that they were used to being the A team at the company.

00:36:36 ◼   ► Mattis was, I think, I know he designed a whole bunch

00:36:40 ◼   ► of stuff in the original iPhone,

00:36:41 ◼   ► but I think he literally did the actual pixels

00:36:44 ◼   ► for the slide to unlock.

00:36:49 ◼   ► And if you're the person who designs both the visuals

00:36:53 ◼   ► and the interaction for a thing, doing Slide to Unlock

00:36:56 ◼   ► is pretty big.

00:36:57 ◼   ► Because I remember Steve Jobs actually demoed it

00:36:59 ◼   ► like three times.

00:37:00 ◼   ► He was like, that's so cool.

00:37:01 ◼   ► I'm going to do it again.

00:37:01 ◼   ► He locked the phone and did it again.

00:37:04 ◼   ► So when you're designing the feature that Steve Jobs

00:37:08 ◼   ► decides, I'm just going to do this three or four times

00:37:10 ◼   ► on stage because I just love it so much,

00:37:13 ◼   ► and then to go to Facebook, and you're not designing the app

00:37:18 ◼   ► that's in front of a billion users,

00:37:20 ◼   ► you're designing the app that's in front of like

00:37:22 ◼   ► one tenth of one percent of the users

00:37:24 ◼   ► who care more about how things look

00:37:26 ◼   ► than the regular Facebook experience.

00:37:29 ◼   ► I just think it's hard to get excited about that.

00:37:33 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:37:33 ◼   ► - I'll take a break, let's take a break.

00:37:36 ◼   ► I'm gonna thank our first sponsor,

00:37:37 ◼   ► it's our good friends at Audible.

00:37:40 ◼   ► You guys know Audible, Audible is where you go to get

00:37:42 ◼   ► just about anything and everything audio related.

00:37:47 ◼   ► I used to think of it as a place you go to get audio books.

00:37:49 ◼   ► And it's true.

00:37:50 ◼   ► They have more audio books than anybody.

00:37:54 ◼   ► But they have so much more than audio books now.

00:37:57 ◼   ► You go there, you sign up for an account,

00:37:59 ◼   ► and you can get all sorts of stuff.

00:38:01 ◼   ► They have news, daily news shows.

00:38:03 ◼   ► They have comedy shows.

00:38:04 ◼   ► All of this stuff, and a lot of this stuff, is original to Audible.

00:38:08 ◼   ► If you want to listen to it, Audible has it.

00:38:11 ◼   ► Listen to audio books from virtually every genre,

00:38:13 ◼   ► anytime, anywhere.

00:38:14 ◼   ► They have a great listen guarantee.

00:38:16 ◼   ► So if you get an audio book and you start listening to it

00:38:19 ◼   ► and it's putting you to sleep, you

00:38:21 ◼   ► could just give it back to them and get a different book.

00:38:24 ◼   ► That's how confident they are.

00:38:28 ◼   ► You're not going to get bored.

00:38:30 ◼   ► Every minute where you need to listen to something to not be

00:38:32 ◼   ► bored, you can fill it up with stuff from Audible.

00:38:34 ◼   ► And I've always said, I think this

00:38:36 ◼   ► is one of the greatest advertising opportunities ever.

00:38:40 ◼   ► Why do they sponsor podcasts?

00:38:41 ◼   ► Because they know that everybody who's

00:38:43 ◼   ► listening to me tell you about Audible

00:38:45 ◼   ► is somebody who listens to spoken word content,

00:38:48 ◼   ► by definition.

00:38:49 ◼   ► So if you're listening to this and you

00:38:51 ◼   ► feel like you've got gaps in your life

00:38:54 ◼   ► where you need more podcasts or things like podcasts,

00:38:57 ◼   ► go to Audible.

00:38:58 ◼   ► Sign up.

00:38:59 ◼   ► Go to audible.com/talkshow.

00:39:02 ◼   ► No "the," just "talk show."

00:39:04 ◼   ► And no, no, you came here and you get a free 30-day trial.

00:39:07 ◼   ► 30 days, we can just listen to whatever you want.

00:39:09 ◼   ► Audible.com/talkshow.

00:39:13 ◼   ► I think I wrote that script.

00:39:15 ◼   ► Yeah, maybe.

00:39:16 ◼   ► [LAUGHTER]

00:39:19 ◼   ► I was telling her--

00:39:24 ◼   ► I forget if it was on air or not.

00:39:26 ◼   ► But Bill Simmons--

00:39:28 ◼   ► I've been listening to him.

00:39:29 ◼   ► I read the football season I was listening.

00:39:31 ◼   ► He does a sports thing.

00:39:32 ◼   ► He does a thing called the ringer.

00:39:33 ◼   ► Thank you.

00:39:36 ◼   ► Very popular.

00:39:36 ◼   ► You probably see it.

00:39:37 ◼   ► It's probably pretty high up in overcast.

00:39:39 ◼   ► So that'd be interesting to see if it was actually

00:39:40 ◼   ► all that high up in overcast.

00:39:41 ◼   ► maybe Overcast skews towards non-sports stuff. Maybe like sports stuff is a little bit more,

00:39:48 ◼   ► I don't know, they'd be in our syndicate. It does pretty well in Overcast. It is not as high as tech

00:39:53 ◼   ► shows and like the really popular, you know, NPR-style storytelling shows like This American

00:39:58 ◼   ► Life, though. I think it was Ben Thompson and I who were talking about it. I forget if it was on

00:40:01 ◼   ► the show or off. But the gist of it is that when Bill Simmons first started doing sponsors reads

00:40:06 ◼   ► on his show. He was awful at it, as was I when I first split off and started doing this

00:40:12 ◼   ► show on my own. Just brutal. Maybe the shows were okay, but the sponsor reads were just

00:40:18 ◼   ► brutal. I don't know why. It's a hard thing to do.

00:40:22 ◼   ► You got the hang of it eventually. It took you maybe a couple of months, and you were

00:40:25 ◼   ► pretty good at it.

00:40:26 ◼   ► Yeah, but Simmons has actually taken it to a new level. I would venture to say he was

00:40:31 ◼   ► worse than me at the beginning, and now he's better than anybody I've ever seen.

00:40:35 ◼   ► He's like in Howard Stern territory at being able to do it. Because sometimes

00:40:41 ◼   ► when I listen to Stern anymore, it almost seems like when Stern does one, where

00:40:44 ◼   ► he does the read, he's phoning it. You could tell he's phoning it in.

00:40:47 ◼   ► Whereas Simmons does it, and he's got a real tight script, and it seems like

00:40:51 ◼   ► he's trying to literally stick it to 30 seconds, get in and out, and he really

00:40:57 ◼   ► starts talking faster.

00:40:59 ◼   ► And it just alleviates-- it just completely alleviates

00:41:03 ◼   ► any urge I have to skip ahead.

00:41:05 ◼   ► I tend not to--

00:41:06 ◼   ► Interesting.

00:41:07 ◼   ► I tend not to skip ahead on sponsor reads, on podcasts,

00:41:10 ◼   ► simply because I-- you know, I know some people do.

00:41:14 ◼   ► And if you do, you know, that's why the feature's there.

00:41:16 ◼   ► It's OK.

00:41:17 ◼   ► It's my job to try to make it as interesting.

00:41:19 ◼   ► You and I have talked about this before.

00:41:20 ◼   ► It's my job to try to make it so interesting

00:41:21 ◼   ► that you don't want to skip.

00:41:22 ◼   ► But when I'm listening to podcasts,

00:41:24 ◼   ► I tend not to skip because I want to listen.

00:41:26 ◼   ► I'm curious at a professional level,

00:41:29 ◼   ► how is this person going to keep me interested?

00:41:31 ◼   ► - Yeah, I often will listen to other people

00:41:34 ◼   ► who are doing reads for the same sponsors that I have

00:41:36 ◼   ► just to hear, like, you know, how are you doing this read?

00:41:39 ◼   ► And like, maybe there's something I can learn

00:41:41 ◼   ► and do better in my reads for the same people

00:41:43 ◼   ► from the way you're doing this read.

00:41:45 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:41:45 ◼   ► So what else we got?

00:41:48 ◼   ► We got a lot to talk about, we gotta hurry up.

00:41:50 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:41:51 ◼   ► - We're really good at that, yeah.

00:41:52 ◼   ► - So we got the, what about WWDC moving?

00:41:55 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's cool.

00:41:56 ◼   ► I mean, I don't know anything about San Jose,

00:41:58 ◼   ► so it's gonna be interesting.

00:41:59 ◼   ► - We talked a little bit about that.

00:42:00 ◼   ► I was completely surprised by this.

00:42:03 ◼   ► This just wasn't even on my radar.

00:42:05 ◼   ► But I kind of, once it happened, it was an initial shock,

00:42:09 ◼   ► and then I thought, oh shit,

00:42:10 ◼   ► what am I gonna do about my live show?

00:42:11 ◼   ► Of course, my thoughts turned to myself immediately.

00:42:15 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:42:17 ◼   ► - Everyone else's did too.

00:42:18 ◼   ► Everyone else is like, oh, how can I fly there?

00:42:20 ◼   ► Is Arno hotels expensive?

00:42:21 ◼   ► I mean, everyone's thinking the same general stuff.

00:42:25 ◼   ► Most of the people aren't thinking,

00:42:25 ◼   ► where can I host my live podcast?

00:42:27 ◼   ► - It just never occurred to me

00:42:28 ◼   ► that they would do this though.

00:42:30 ◼   ► I guess the rough thinking was,

00:42:34 ◼   ► and we've all had this, people who go regularly,

00:42:36 ◼   ► that San Francisco's not great.

00:42:39 ◼   ► I mean, there are parts of San Francisco

00:42:42 ◼   ► that are absolutely gorgeous,

00:42:44 ◼   ► but south of Market where Moscone is, it's not great.

00:42:47 ◼   ► I don't hate it, some people really hate it.

00:42:49 ◼   ► Some people, it is what it is,

00:42:51 ◼   ► but it is sort of the touristy, hotel-y,

00:42:55 ◼   ► maybe touristy's the wrong, but it's--

00:42:59 ◼   ► - It's kind of like the worst of San Francisco.

00:43:01 ◼   ► The area that we see when we go to WBC

00:43:04 ◼   ► is a terrible image of the city as a whole.

00:43:08 ◼   ► - Well, and it's not too far from Union Square, though,

00:43:11 ◼   ► and Union Square is nicer,

00:43:12 ◼   ► but Union Square is just high-end retail.

00:43:15 ◼   ► It's not, you know what I mean?

00:43:16 ◼   ► Like, what are you supposed to do,

00:43:18 ◼   ► go shopping for jewelry and stuff like that?

00:43:20 ◼   ► It's OK.

00:43:22 ◼   ► But it is what it is.

00:43:24 ◼   ► But the fact is that Apple, we'd say, well,

00:43:26 ◼   ► what could they do different?

00:43:28 ◼   ► Well, there's no other facility with 5,000 people.

00:43:31 ◼   ► And then we would just say, well, it used to be in San Jose,

00:43:33 ◼   ► but they moved out of San Jose for a reason.

00:43:35 ◼   ► And there's nothing else.

00:43:38 ◼   ► And they're not going to go further away,

00:43:39 ◼   ► because it's already a major stress on Apple

00:43:42 ◼   ► to get 1,000 engineers from the South Bay area

00:43:45 ◼   ► to San Francisco for labs and to just hang out and do stuff

00:43:48 ◼   ► and still get work done.

00:43:50 ◼   ► I, for one, had just completely overlooked the,

00:43:57 ◼   ► well, they could move back to San Jose angle for years.

00:44:00 ◼   ► It just never really,

00:44:01 ◼   ► I never even really gave it serious thought,

00:44:03 ◼   ► but then once they said, yeah, here's what we're doing,

00:44:05 ◼   ► I could totally see the logic of it,

00:44:06 ◼   ► and it seems like a very Apple-like move.

00:44:09 ◼   ► - I mean, really, it makes a ton of sense logistically too.

00:44:12 ◼   ► I mean, not only is it closer to them,

00:44:13 ◼   ► but like San Francisco is a dense, competitive,

00:44:18 ◼   ► very expensive city, there's a reason why

00:44:21 ◼   ► you don't see a lot of tech conferences in Manhattan.

00:44:24 ◼   ► It's because if you put on a tech conference in Manhattan,

00:44:28 ◼   ► the space that you hold it in is going to be

00:44:30 ◼   ► extraordinarily expensive.

00:44:32 ◼   ► All the logistics, getting the food in there,

00:44:35 ◼   ► getting all the equipment, that's all gonna be

00:44:37 ◼   ► extraordinarily expensive.

00:44:38 ◼   ► And then for the attendees, they're gonna have to pay

00:44:41 ◼   ► ridiculous hotel prices because they're going

00:44:44 ◼   ► to this major city that is itself

00:44:46 ◼   ► a massive tourist destination.

00:44:48 ◼   ► And so it's very unappealing to hold a major conference

00:44:52 ◼   ► in New York City unless it really needs to be

00:44:56 ◼   ► specifically in New York City for some reason.

00:44:59 ◼   ► WBC could be anywhere.

00:45:00 ◼   ► As far as the attendees are concerned,

00:45:03 ◼   ► it doesn't matter where it is.

00:45:05 ◼   ► You're going to see talks and labs and stuff

00:45:07 ◼   ► and that could be in any conference center

00:45:09 ◼   ► in any city in America.

00:45:11 ◼   ► You don't have to be paying the extreme premium

00:45:16 ◼   ► and dealing with all the logistical challenges

00:45:18 ◼   ► and downsides of being in a massive tourist

00:45:21 ◼   ► expensive dense city just to go watch some talks and go to lab.

00:45:26 ◼   ► And either you already have friends and colleagues

00:45:29 ◼   ► who will also be there, and you'll see them,

00:45:32 ◼   ► and it doesn't matter where you are.

00:45:33 ◼   ► Or even if you don't, even if you're like a first timer,

00:45:36 ◼   ► if you're new, you're going to be surrounded

00:45:38 ◼   ► by like-minded individuals.

00:45:41 ◼   ► And it's not hard to make friends, or even just

00:45:44 ◼   ► temporary friends while sitting at a bar

00:45:46 ◼   ► or something like that.

00:45:47 ◼   ► You're very, you know, you can start talking about Xcode

00:45:50 ◼   ► and all of a sudden, you know, you're not bored.

00:45:52 ◼   ► - Right, I mean like, if anything,

00:45:53 ◼   ► the city's kind of wasted on you

00:45:55 ◼   ► because if you're attending the conference,

00:45:58 ◼   ► you don't really have time to go out

00:46:00 ◼   ► and explore much of the city.

00:46:01 ◼   ► Like for the most part, you're waking up,

00:46:04 ◼   ► you're trying to get to that 9 a.m. session in the morning,

00:46:06 ◼   ► you're in sessions and stuff all day,

00:46:08 ◼   ► you might have a little hour for lunch

00:46:09 ◼   ► but you can't go that far, and then you're back

00:46:11 ◼   ► and then like five o'clock rolls around

00:46:12 ◼   ► and you just wanna go to the hotel bar with your friends,

00:46:15 ◼   ► have a couple of drinks, and go to dinner,

00:46:18 ◼   ► and that's the night.

00:46:19 ◼   ► You can do that anywhere.

00:46:20 ◼   ► You're not seeing the whole city.

00:46:23 ◼   ► It doesn't really make sense.

00:46:25 ◼   ► One of my favorite conference venues I've ever been to

00:46:28 ◼   ► is where Ool has been held the last couple years,

00:46:31 ◼   ► in Killarney, Ireland, in this hotel called The Europe.

00:46:34 ◼   ► And it's this very, very remote location.

00:46:38 ◼   ► And the hotel itself, you've been there.

00:46:40 ◼   ► Have you been there, actually?

00:46:41 ◼   ► - I don't think so.

00:46:42 ◼   ► I don't, uh.

00:46:43 ◼   ► - Yeah, 'cause you missed the, yeah, anyway, it's awesome.

00:46:47 ◼   ► It's the third remote. - It depends how many years

00:46:48 ◼   ► in a row they've been at the same one.

00:46:50 ◼   ► I was at one that was at a remote location,

00:46:52 ◼   ► but I think they've switched to a different remote location.

00:46:55 ◼   ► - Yeah, this is, I believe this is their third one

00:46:58 ◼   ► that they're about to do next month.

00:46:59 ◼   ► I'm going, I recommend it.

00:47:01 ◼   ► Anyway, so it's just like this one giant hotel venue

00:47:06 ◼   ► kind of in the middle of nowhere, it's beautiful,

00:47:09 ◼   ► but like you're all kind of self-enclosed there.

00:47:11 ◼   ► There is a nearby city of Killarney,

00:47:14 ◼   ► but you don't really,

00:47:16 ◼   ► the attendees don't really have to go there.

00:47:17 ◼   ► You're all on premises, and you're surrounded

00:47:20 ◼   ► by all the people that are there for your event,

00:47:23 ◼   ► and so there is no time to go out and enjoy some other city.

00:47:28 ◼   ► That's what you're there for.

00:47:29 ◼   ► You're there to hang out with those people

00:47:31 ◼   ► and see those talks and do those events.

00:47:32 ◼   ► So to have a conference in a massive city

00:47:35 ◼   ► that you're paying a big premium to be in

00:47:38 ◼   ► doesn't actually make a lot of sense.

00:47:39 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:47:40 ◼   ► I love Ireland. I remember the last time I was there and there was a band, remember,

00:47:46 ◼   ► and their lead singer, were you there this year? And there was a lead singer named Paddy,

00:47:50 ◼   ► P-A-D-D-Y.

00:47:51 ◼   ► I've never been there on the same time that you were there.

00:47:54 ◼   ► I don't think so either. So Paddy was there and he was the lead singer of this band and

00:47:58 ◼   ► he had nothing interesting. He had no connection to Apple-related stuff. But he came up to

00:48:04 ◼   ► the pub without leaving the building.

00:48:08 ◼   ► It's sort of like a compound.

00:48:09 ◼   ► He came up and was gonna have a drink or two,

00:48:12 ◼   ► and he just, you know, he's a gregarious showbiz performer,

00:48:15 ◼   ► but very nice.

00:48:17 ◼   ► And it quickly struck up conversations

00:48:19 ◼   ► with all sorts of people, and he was having a good time,

00:48:22 ◼   ► and never left. (laughs)

00:48:25 ◼   ► And then at like midnight, they were doing Last Call,

00:48:28 ◼   ► and everybody was like, "Oh, man, what are we gonna do?

00:48:30 ◼   ► "Everybody wanted to stay up a little bit later."

00:48:32 ◼   ► And Patty went up to the bartender and just off--

00:48:36 ◼   ► it wasn't like whispering in his ear,

00:48:37 ◼   ► but he just spent about two minutes talking to him.

00:48:39 ◼   ► And the next thing you know, the bartender's

00:48:41 ◼   ► like slapping on the back.

00:48:42 ◼   ► And the bartender says, all right,

00:48:43 ◼   ► we'll stay open two more hours.

00:48:44 ◼   ► [LAUGHTER]

00:48:45 ◼   ► That's awesome.

00:48:46 ◼   ► I've never heard of anything like that in my life,

00:48:48 ◼   ► like we're the staff of a place.

00:48:50 ◼   ► And he got-- he called over--

00:48:52 ◼   ► he didn't make it unilaterally.

00:48:53 ◼   ► He called over another bartender and was just like,

00:48:55 ◼   ► hey, what do you-- these guys want to keep going.

00:48:57 ◼   ► How about we do two more hours?

00:48:59 ◼   ► [LAUGHTER]

00:49:01 ◼   ► It was a good conference.

00:49:04 ◼   ► Why do you think WWDC moved from San Jose to San Francisco

00:49:08 ◼   ► when it did?

00:49:08 ◼   ► I think it was 2003 or 2004.

00:49:11 ◼   ► - I don't know, that was before my time.

00:49:12 ◼   ► I think some of the other things I've heard,

00:49:15 ◼   ► I think Jason was talking about it on Upgrade,

00:49:18 ◼   ► about how back then Apple really wanted to be

00:49:23 ◼   ► in more of the media spotlight with this stuff.

00:49:25 ◼   ► It's more prestigious to go there.

00:49:27 ◼   ► It's really owning, yeah, we're big, we're awesome,

00:49:30 ◼   ► It kind of attracts more media attention being there.

00:49:32 ◼   ► But now the attention comes to them,

00:49:33 ◼   ► so they don't need to do that as much.

00:49:35 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think that's it exactly.

00:49:36 ◼   ► I think it was Steve Jobs.

00:49:38 ◼   ► And I think Steve Jobs, you know,

00:49:39 ◼   ► Apple was firing on all cylinders.

00:49:41 ◼   ► The iPod was slowly turning into a massive hit.

00:49:46 ◼   ► The retail stores were slowly turning into a success story.

00:49:50 ◼   ► They were, it was the, you know, the last, famously,

00:49:55 ◼   ► I know that, I think Jason and Mike even went over this,

00:49:58 ◼   ► And the last one at San Jose was the one

00:50:01 ◼   ► where they had a funeral for Mac OS 9, which was actually

00:50:05 ◼   ► kind of forced.

00:50:07 ◼   ► Like, the only reason they had to--

00:50:09 ◼   ► you think that's a weird thing to do

00:50:11 ◼   ► is have a funeral on stage for your product.

00:50:13 ◼   ► But it was actually because it wasn't dead.

00:50:16 ◼   ► It was because so many people were still using Mac OS 9.

00:50:20 ◼   ► But it was at the point where they

00:50:21 ◼   ► felt like they were in the clear.

00:50:24 ◼   ► It was three or four years into the--

00:50:25 ◼   ► I guess at least three years into the Mac OS 10 era.

00:50:28 ◼   ► But they were at the point where I think they could see the light at the end of the tunnel that yes

00:50:31 ◼   ► We're we're going to make this transition all max will be running Mac OS X

00:50:37 ◼   ► You know

00:50:38 ◼   ► This isn't going to sink us the first two years of Mac OS X was kind of iffy really in terms of how big the uptake

00:50:44 ◼   ► Was so I think that after that one, you know, the Mac was clearly had a bright future. The iPod was great retail was great

00:50:50 ◼   ► I think Steve Jobs wanted a bigger spotlight

00:50:53 ◼   ► And I think doing I hope that you have having like a hopeful funeral

00:50:57 ◼   ► Like, we really hope this is it, guys. Please, Richard, we're begging you, please make this

00:51:03 ◼   ► dead.

00:51:04 ◼   ► I remember they had it, and it was before my time of attending WWDCs, but I still had

00:51:08 ◼   ► two Macs at my desk. I had a Power Mac 9600 that was still running Mac OS 9 as my main

00:51:17 ◼   ► machine, and then I had an iBook running OS 10.

00:51:21 ◼   ► Oh, see, now I have one with a keyboard I can use and one with another one.

00:51:26 ◼   ► So that's what I think.

00:51:27 ◼   ► I think they moved to San Francisco for the publicity.

00:51:30 ◼   ► I think that's exactly right,

00:51:31 ◼   ► that they wanted more attention.

00:51:33 ◼   ► They felt like they could use it.

00:51:35 ◼   ► They had stuff to say.

00:51:36 ◼   ► They had stuff that deserved more attention,

00:51:38 ◼   ► and now they don't.

00:51:39 ◼   ► And I don't think San Francisco

00:51:40 ◼   ► was ever a good fit for Apple, culturally.

00:51:43 ◼   ► They're not a San Francisco city.

00:51:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, they have a very different vibe about them

00:51:50 ◼   ► than what I've, I mean, again, I've never worked for Apple,

00:51:53 ◼   ► and I've never lived in San Francisco,

00:51:55 ◼   ► so it's hard for me to say this,

00:51:56 ◼   ► But just my kind of bird's eye view of it,

00:51:59 ◼   ► it does seem like they didn't really fit in there.

00:52:01 ◼   ► - Like there's no, put travel aside.

00:52:04 ◼   ► Like 'cause when they move to the new Apple,

00:52:06 ◼   ► when they open a new Apple, I shouldn't say move,

00:52:08 ◼   ► 'cause that's exactly my point,

00:52:09 ◼   ► but when they open the new Apple Campus too,

00:52:11 ◼   ► they're not leaving the Apple Campus,

00:52:15 ◼   ► the original Infinite Loop Campus.

00:52:17 ◼   ► They need all the space they can get.

00:52:19 ◼   ► And so, I mean there might be some empty offices for a while

00:52:22 ◼   ► but there's gonna be back and forth

00:52:24 ◼   ► between the original Apple Campus and Apple Campus 2

00:52:27 ◼   ► on a daily basis.

00:52:28 ◼   ► So having them both in Cupertino is a big deal.

00:52:32 ◼   ► And they have new office space in San Jose.

00:52:34 ◼   ► They have space in a few other places in the South Bay area.

00:52:37 ◼   ► But the fact that getting between anywhere in the South

00:52:40 ◼   ► Bay is easier than getting from anywhere in the South Bay

00:52:42 ◼   ► to San Francisco is a big deal.

00:52:44 ◼   ► There's no universe where Apple Campus 2 is a skyscraper

00:52:50 ◼   ► with the same square footage in San Francisco.

00:52:52 ◼   ► It's just culturally--

00:52:53 ◼   ► And travel aside, even if part of it

00:52:56 ◼   ► was like a tunnel dug by Elon Musk

00:52:58 ◼   ► that could get you between them in 10 minutes,

00:53:01 ◼   ► even if you could get between them in 10 minutes,

00:53:03 ◼   ► there's just no way they would do it.

00:53:04 ◼   ► It's just San Francisco is not an Apple town

00:53:06 ◼   ► in a way that San Jose, I think, is.

00:53:10 ◼   ► - I'm looking forward to it,

00:53:12 ◼   ► 'cause it really is like going

00:53:14 ◼   ► to a whole new conference now.

00:53:15 ◼   ► And at WBC, I've gone now for something like seven years,

00:53:20 ◼   ► something like that, and I've enjoyed it,

00:53:23 ◼   ► but I'm looking forward to something new,

00:53:26 ◼   ► something fresh and it's kind of more exciting now

00:53:29 ◼   ► 'cause it's gonna be something a little bit different.

00:53:31 ◼   ► - I forget if I went in 2006,

00:53:33 ◼   ► so I either went 10 years in a row or nine years in a row.

00:53:37 ◼   ► Yeah, it's one of my favorite things about covering Apple

00:53:39 ◼   ► is that they're very predictable,

00:53:42 ◼   ► so if you try to approach them

00:53:43 ◼   ► and analyze them in a logical standpoint,

00:53:45 ◼   ► you can have success,

00:53:47 ◼   ► but they're also resistant to complacency, right?

00:53:50 ◼   ► So they're not gonna like ping pong around

00:53:53 ◼   ► and move WWDC to random cities every year.

00:53:56 ◼   ► But they're not going to keep it in San Francisco

00:53:59 ◼   ► just because that's where it's been for 10 years,

00:54:03 ◼   ► which we'll get to when we talk about iPhone and iPad form

00:54:08 ◼   ► factors.

00:54:10 ◼   ► The other thing, too, is you've heard it.

00:54:12 ◼   ► I've heard it.

00:54:12 ◼   ► Everybody who's gone in recent years

00:54:13 ◼   ► has heard that from the longtime attendees who

00:54:15 ◼   ► remember the San Jose era, there's

00:54:17 ◼   ► a reputation that downtown San Jose was kind of sleepy,

00:54:20 ◼   ► that restaurants and bars close early.

00:54:23 ◼   ► There's quote unquote nothing to do.

00:54:26 ◼   ► Two things on that is one, back then WWDC

00:54:29 ◼   ► didn't even sell out.

00:54:31 ◼   ► I forget when the first sell out was,

00:54:33 ◼   ► but I don't think it was in San Jose.

00:54:35 ◼   ► And the second thing is that talking to a couple people,

00:54:41 ◼   ► downtown San Jose has improved a lot in the last 10 years,

00:54:45 ◼   ► that there's been a lot of-- I just looked it up.

00:54:51 ◼   ► first WWDC to sell out was 2008.

00:54:53 ◼   ► Gee, I wonder what happened 2008

00:54:55 ◼   ► that would cause the first sale.

00:54:57 ◼   ► So up until 2008, even the first few years at Moscone,

00:55:00 ◼   ► you could buy a ticket the day before WWDC.

00:55:02 ◼   ► I think the fact that this is obviously going to sell out

00:55:05 ◼   ► and that there are going to be people in San Jose

00:55:08 ◼   ► who don't even have tickets,

00:55:10 ◼   ► it's gonna be a different vibe.

00:55:12 ◼   ► And a couple people have said that downtown San Jose

00:55:15 ◼   ► has really improved a lot.

00:55:17 ◼   ► I was just talking to a friend of the show, Jim Dalrymple.

00:55:19 ◼   ► - I was saying on Twitter,

00:55:20 ◼   ► you don't really need much.

00:55:21 ◼   ► Like, when you're there for a conference,

00:55:24 ◼   ► like, you need a handful of, you know,

00:55:25 ◼   ► you need good hotels that you can hopefully get

00:55:28 ◼   ► for a reasonable price.

00:55:29 ◼   ► You need a bunch of restaurants

00:55:32 ◼   ► to be able to get food at.

00:55:33 ◼   ► And you need, you know, a handful of decent bars

00:55:36 ◼   ► and bars in the hotels.

00:55:38 ◼   ► And that's about it.

00:55:39 ◼   ► Like, you don't need tons and tons of nightlife

00:55:42 ◼   ► for a tech conference for five days.

00:55:44 ◼   ► - Right, it's actually better

00:55:45 ◼   ► if the bars are generally empty,

00:55:47 ◼   ► but are willing to stay open late,

00:55:48 ◼   ► so you can take over.

00:55:49 ◼   ► Dow Rumple, I was talking to about it,

00:55:52 ◼   ► now he's familiar with the area now,

00:55:54 ◼   ► and he goes to hockey games at the San Jose,

00:55:58 ◼   ► I forget, I don't know what the name of it is,

00:56:00 ◼   ► but wherever the Sharks play,

00:56:01 ◼   ► which is only one mile away from the convention center,

00:56:04 ◼   ► so it's, by city standards, not a far walk.

00:56:07 ◼   ► That's the thing about San Jose,

00:56:09 ◼   ► is that downtown San Jose is all in one area.

00:56:12 ◼   ► It's not spread out.

00:56:13 ◼   ► And he said after hockey games, 10, 30, 11,

00:56:17 ◼   ► and there's all sorts of stuff to do,

00:56:18 ◼   ► bars to get beers at and places to eat late

00:56:20 ◼   ► and stuff like that.

00:56:21 ◼   ► So I'm looking forward to it.

00:56:24 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:56:25 ◼   ► - Are you gonna go no matter what?

00:56:28 ◼   ► - I'm going, yeah.

00:56:29 ◼   ► I actually, last year I told myself,

00:56:32 ◼   ► you know what, I'm not gonna get tickets anymore.

00:56:34 ◼   ► 'Cause I'm going to fewer sessions.

00:56:37 ◼   ► I'm like, you know what, I feel now

00:56:39 ◼   ► that I'm wasting a ticket

00:56:41 ◼   ► because I keep trying to do more and more other things.

00:56:44 ◼   ► I keep getting double booked for time slots

00:56:46 ◼   ► with meetings and social events and podcast events

00:56:48 ◼   ► and everything else, like you know what,

00:56:49 ◼   ► I'm just not gonna take it.

00:56:51 ◼   ► Now actually I'm questioning that

00:56:53 ◼   ► because now it's gonna be different.

00:56:54 ◼   ► Well, maybe I should get a ticket this year, I don't know.

00:56:57 ◼   ► I'm definitely going out there.

00:56:59 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean I'll go just to cover the keynote

00:57:02 ◼   ► and I have nothing to announce

00:57:04 ◼   ► but hopefully to do my live show again.

00:57:08 ◼   ► But I always do that and try to always do it

00:57:10 ◼   ► on Tuesday evenings.

00:57:12 ◼   ► My question is how long to stay?

00:57:13 ◼   ► Like I don't know if I'm gonna stay all week.

00:57:16 ◼   ► - Yeah, I don't know.

00:57:17 ◼   ► 'Cause the thing is, we don't know.

00:57:20 ◼   ► It is a whole new conference, effectively.

00:57:22 ◼   ► So we don't know if you plan to go in Sunday

00:57:27 ◼   ► and leave Wednesday or something like that,

00:57:29 ◼   ► are you gonna regret that you didn't stay

00:57:31 ◼   ► until the cool things that were gonna happen

00:57:32 ◼   ► on Thursday night?

00:57:33 ◼   ► You don't know.

00:57:34 ◼   ► And that's why I'm kinda thinking,

00:57:36 ◼   ► I might just do my usual Sunday

00:57:39 ◼   ► through Friday afternoon thing.

00:57:41 ◼   ► The worst that can happen is I have a couple bonus days

00:57:45 ◼   ► California. Oh no, you know, there are worse things in the world than that.

00:57:51 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't know what I'm gonna do, but anyway, what a surprise. So that came out

00:57:55 ◼   ► like what, the day after ATP last week, so you guys didn't get to talk about it yet.

00:57:58 ◼   ► Yeah, haven't talked about it yet. I think the gist of it, and I think everybody's sort of

00:58:02 ◼   ► wrapping their heads around it, is I think Apple can spend the money on

00:58:06 ◼   ► surrounding stuff around the Convention Center, and the number of people that

00:58:11 ◼   ► will be there, you know, attendance is not going up, but even if it's just

00:58:14 ◼   ► 5,000 plus a couple thousand people who you know come in we're out of a couple

00:58:20 ◼   ► thousand come but if a thousand people come just to be there and simultaneous

00:58:24 ◼   ► with it and then cut the other factor is combined with all the South Bay companies

00:58:29 ◼   ► whose employees might come after work when they couldn't if it was all the way

00:58:32 ◼   ► up in San Francisco I think it's I think it's gonna feel like apples taken over

00:58:37 ◼   ► for San Jose.

00:58:39 ◼   ► - Yeah, my main concern is if I don't get

00:58:43 ◼   ► a conference ticket, will I not be able to get

00:58:46 ◼   ► into major events that I will then want to get into?

00:58:49 ◼   ► - Yeah, I know.

00:58:50 ◼   ► - You know, that's been my one concern of like,

00:58:53 ◼   ► should I go anyway or not?

00:58:55 ◼   ► And because in San Francisco, there was so much

00:58:59 ◼   ► to do everywhere that whether you had a WDC badge

00:59:03 ◼   ► didn't really matter for anything except for the beer bash.

00:59:07 ◼   ► That was the only thing where it really mattered

00:59:10 ◼   ► whether you had it or not, but all the other events

00:59:11 ◼   ► that happened around the conference were for anybody.

00:59:14 ◼   ► And I hope that's gonna keep being the case,

00:59:16 ◼   ► but I don't know yet.

00:59:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think it'll be the same, I do.

00:59:20 ◼   ► I do think, here's my theory, one of my theories

00:59:23 ◼   ► is that they'll have the Bash on campus at Apple Campus too.

00:59:26 ◼   ► 'Cause I think they used-- - That would be awesome,

00:59:29 ◼   ► but I don't think it's ready.

00:59:31 ◼   ► - Maybe by June it will be, I don't know.

00:59:32 ◼   ► - I mean, it's certainly cutting it close.

00:59:34 ◼   ► - Yeah, I don't know.

00:59:35 ◼   ► Or maybe they'll have it back at Infinite Loop,

00:59:36 ◼   ► I don't know, that's what they used to do.

00:59:39 ◼   ► - Is it big enough?

00:59:39 ◼   ► Like is the courtyard there big enough

00:59:41 ◼   ► to hold today's WDC crowd?

00:59:43 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:59:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, I don't know.

00:59:45 ◼   ► I mean, the new courtyard certainly is.

00:59:47 ◼   ► - Like Yerba Buena felt crowded.

00:59:49 ◼   ► And that's a big yard, you know?

00:59:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, but it got crowded by the stage,

00:59:54 ◼   ► but yeah, I don't know.

00:59:57 ◼   ► - No, no, it was empty by the stage.

01:00:00 ◼   ► - I guess you're right, you know what I mean.

01:00:01 ◼   ► - It was very crowded.

01:00:03 ◼   ► The further back you got from the stage,

01:00:05 ◼   ► the crowd more crowded at God because none of the nerds at the conference ever

01:00:09 ◼   ► wanted to be near the band we all wanted to talk to each other right you can't

01:00:11 ◼   ► hear I can't hear you let's go to the back it's the worst gig for a band to

01:00:15 ◼   ► ever play some of them had success it's I felt bad for them every year because

01:00:20 ◼   ► it's like oh god like you you're playing to a bunch of nerds backs who are like

01:00:24 ◼   ► plugging their ears because they don't want to hear you right oh it's terrible

01:00:28 ◼   ► all right let's uh it's shift gears to there's supposedly a March Apple event

01:00:34 ◼   ► and they're gonna do iPads, new iPads,

01:00:38 ◼   ► possibly a 128 gigabyte upgrade to the iPhone SE

01:00:44 ◼   ► and then what else, a new red color for the iPhone SE.

01:00:49 ◼   ► Or maybe a new red color for all iPhones.

01:00:53 ◼   ► - No, I think the rumor was a new red color

01:00:55 ◼   ► for the main iPhone 7 line.

01:00:56 ◼   ► - Oh, maybe.

01:00:57 ◼   ► - Which is kind of odd to do halfway through Recycle,

01:00:59 ◼   ► but I mean, who knows?

01:01:01 ◼   ► You know, again, like this is the kind of thing

01:01:02 ◼   ► where if we look back and say, well, Apple never does that.

01:01:06 ◼   ► The iPhone makes a lot of money,

01:01:08 ◼   ► Apple's an evolving company.

01:01:10 ◼   ► They can do whatever they want, and they will.

01:01:12 ◼   ► If they think there's a good reason to do something like this,

01:01:14 ◼   ► they would do it.

01:01:15 ◼   ► - So I think one of the interesting things

01:01:17 ◼   ► is that just about everything we know about,

01:01:19 ◼   ► or have heard, I shouldn't say we know,

01:01:21 ◼   ► but just about all the rumors we have

01:01:23 ◼   ► about upcoming Apple products all come from Ming-Chi Kuo,

01:01:27 ◼   ► the analyst at KGI Securities.

01:01:29 ◼   ► - He certainly seems like he has the best info the earliest.

01:01:34 ◼   ► - Right, like, Gurman has had some stories at Bloomberg,

01:01:38 ◼   ► but it hasn't really been a lot.

01:01:40 ◼   ► He had like an Apple TV thing recently,

01:01:41 ◼   ► but it's just 4K coming to Apple TV.

01:01:45 ◼   ► In terms of like iPads and iPhones,

01:01:46 ◼   ► he hasn't had a lot recently.

01:01:48 ◼   ► It seems like it's all coming from Ming-Chi Kuo.

01:01:51 ◼   ► - It seems like Gurman's sources

01:01:53 ◼   ► are maybe more in the Mac area.

01:01:55 ◼   ► - Yeah, maybe.

01:01:56 ◼   ► - Because he seems to have more Mac info,

01:01:58 ◼   ► and Ming-Chi Kuo seems to have more iOS supply chain info.

01:02:02 ◼   ► - It's all supply chain info.

01:02:03 ◼   ► I don't think Ming-Chi Kuo has any sources at Cupertino.

01:02:06 ◼   ► I really don't.

01:02:07 ◼   ► And a lot of what he gets wrong

01:02:08 ◼   ► is from not having those sources,

01:02:11 ◼   ► but that he has seemingly drinking buddy status

01:02:14 ◼   ► with some Foxconn executives.

01:02:17 ◼   ► But it was interesting 'cause just yesterday,

01:02:23 ◼   ► I'm looking at the date, Mac Otakara,

01:02:26 ◼   ► Japanese rumor site who has a pretty good track record too.

01:02:30 ◼   ► Yeah, they're pretty good.

01:02:31 ◼   ► I mean, I'll put a link in the show notes to the one, but I'll put it the Mac Rumors

01:02:34 ◼   ► version because it's in English.

01:02:37 ◼   ► What they're saying is, much like KGI or Ming Chi Kuo, the new 9.7 and 12.9 inch iPad Pros,

01:02:48 ◼   ► so take the iPad Pros, we already have new ones.

01:02:52 ◼   ► bizarre to me rumor of a 10.5 inch iPad which basically has the same footprint

01:02:59 ◼   ► as the 9.7 inch as we know it but with an edge to edge display so get rid of

01:03:04 ◼   ► the bezels at the top and bottom so it has a 10.5 inch diagonal display because

01:03:09 ◼   ► it gets rid of the bezels now the reason I call that bizarre getting rid of bezels

01:03:13 ◼   ► sounds like something Apple would do but the reason it sounds bizarre to me is

01:03:16 ◼   ► that all these rumors say that it's going to come alongside a new 9.7 inch

01:03:21 ◼   ► iPad Pro.

01:03:22 ◼   ► To me, what would make the--

01:03:25 ◼   ► what both makes sense and fits the historical pattern is,

01:03:30 ◼   ► if they're going to do that, introduce that

01:03:32 ◼   ► as the new high-end model at this footprint

01:03:34 ◼   ► and put the iPad, the 9.7-inch iPad

01:03:37 ◼   ► Pro at a minus $100 or minus $200 price point

01:03:42 ◼   ► lower down the chain.

01:03:44 ◼   ► But there's an awful lot--

01:03:46 ◼   ► all these rumors say that they're going to do both.

01:03:48 ◼   ► And now, Mac Atacara yesterday says

01:03:51 ◼   ► there's also going to be a 7.9-inch iPad Pro.

01:03:56 ◼   ► So in other words, an iPad Pro Mini.

01:03:59 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:04:00 ◼   ► Which should be the first update to the Mini in quite some time.

01:04:03 ◼   ► Yeah, but I think that they've done that before.

01:04:05 ◼   ► I think if you look at the updates to the Mini

01:04:07 ◼   ► that they've skipped years before.

01:04:09 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, so let's--

01:04:12 ◼   ► easy things first.

01:04:13 ◼   ► The 7.9-inch iPad Pro Mini, that makes a lot of sense.

01:04:17 ◼   ► And it's probably got last year's specs, right?

01:04:18 ◼   ► That's what I would think.

01:04:19 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:04:19 ◼   ► It's going to have--

01:04:20 ◼   ► It probably has the specs of the current 9.7 Pro, which

01:04:23 ◼   ► is now a year old.

01:04:24 ◼   ► So that makes sense, right?

01:04:26 ◼   ► Apple doesn't need to save the Pro name only

01:04:29 ◼   ► for the higher end products, because Pro

01:04:31 ◼   ► means they can sell $100 pencil and $150 keyboard

01:04:35 ◼   ► with these things.

01:04:35 ◼   ► So they love spreading Pro all over the whole line.

01:04:38 ◼   ► I wonder what a--

01:04:40 ◼   ► I mean, a keyboard that would fit--

01:04:41 ◼   ► I have an iPad Mini in front of me right now.

01:04:43 ◼   ► That's a cramped keyboard.

01:04:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, I used like a Logitech one once a long time ago

01:04:48 ◼   ► and it was nearly impossible to use, it was tough.

01:04:51 ◼   ► Like the 9.7 size allows for a just barely usable

01:04:55 ◼   ► keyboard case on it, but the 7.9, that's tough.

01:04:59 ◼   ► I mean, they do exist and I guess somebody's buying them,

01:05:01 ◼   ► but that's certainly not a good keyboard.

01:05:04 ◼   ► But anyway, so that makes sense.

01:05:07 ◼   ► So between 9.7 and 10.5, you know,

01:05:11 ◼   ► there are these kind of similar rumors

01:05:15 ◼   ► that we'll probably get to also with the whole

01:05:17 ◼   ► iPhone 7S and 8 being also simultaneously released

01:05:22 ◼   ► in the fall and they're basically being like,

01:05:24 ◼   ► the iPhone quote eight would be this similar

01:05:27 ◼   ► bezel-less, larger screen, smaller case,

01:05:29 ◼   ► higher priced model.

01:05:31 ◼   ► So that's, if they're gonna do that for the iPhone line,

01:05:36 ◼   ► whatever their reasons are for doing it there,

01:05:38 ◼   ► they had, maybe they finally got their

01:05:40 ◼   ► edge to edge design and technology lined up

01:05:42 ◼   ► so they can finally do this,

01:05:43 ◼   ► so they're very excited to do this,

01:05:44 ◼   ► but it costs more to do it for various reasons

01:05:46 ◼   ► or whatever else, or they just wanted,

01:05:48 ◼   ► you know, they wanted to have a premium product

01:05:50 ◼   ► 'cause they wanna start, you know,

01:05:51 ◼   ► if people are really treating their phones

01:05:54 ◼   ► and their iPads as computers,

01:05:57 ◼   ► both in what they're doing with them

01:05:59 ◼   ► and in their replacement cycles,

01:06:02 ◼   ► then Apple probably wants them

01:06:03 ◼   ► to boost those prices up a little bit.

01:06:04 ◼   ► It's like, well, if you're only gonna buy

01:06:06 ◼   ► a new phone every three years or an iPad every five,

01:06:08 ◼   ► and you're gonna treat it like

01:06:10 ◼   ► you used to treat your $2,000 laptop,

01:06:11 ◼   ► well, if we can get you to pay 1,100 bucks for it,

01:06:14 ◼   ► that's better for us and we can give you higher end specs

01:06:17 ◼   ► and higher end, you know, more storage

01:06:19 ◼   ► and fancier screen technology and all this other stuff.

01:06:22 ◼   ► So it makes lots of sense why they would have

01:06:25 ◼   ► higher priced ones at all.

01:06:27 ◼   ► And it's totally plausible with modern Apple

01:06:31 ◼   ► that they would also keep making lower end ones

01:06:34 ◼   ► that, you know, rather, 'cause, you know,

01:06:36 ◼   ► when Apple releases new things like this,

01:06:39 ◼   ► you know, new iOS devices, new form factors,

01:06:41 ◼   ► One of the ways that they can release these things

01:06:44 ◼   ► that they have in the past is you release the new thing

01:06:47 ◼   ► at the old price point and push everything down 100 bucks.

01:06:50 ◼   ► The other way you do it is you leave everything

01:06:52 ◼   ► at the same price point and you bring the new one in

01:06:55 ◼   ► that's 100 bucks more than the old one was

01:06:57 ◼   ► because the new one's higher end.

01:06:58 ◼   ► So that's what I see them probably doing here.

01:07:00 ◼   ► That's probably what the 10.5 inch iPad

01:07:03 ◼   ► and the quote iPhone 8 with this weird edge to edge display,

01:07:05 ◼   ► both of those are probably that latter kind of product

01:07:08 ◼   ► where they both probably come into an existing lineup

01:07:10 ◼   ► itself doesn't really change or changes only in minor ways and they come in at

01:07:14 ◼   ► higher price points with more premium stuff. Yeah, so I think it's almost

01:07:18 ◼   ► like you have to because the pattern is the same that there's going to be new

01:07:21 ◼   ► models in the old form factor and there's amazing edge-to-edge, you know,

01:07:28 ◼   ► blow away design without the bezels. It's the same story for the iPad and the

01:07:32 ◼   ► iPhone so we might as well talk about the iPhone. Did you just forestall the blow away thing as a verb? I might have.

01:07:37 ◼   ► Oh jeez or it wasn't an adjective it was an adjective. Yeah, I

01:07:41 ◼   ► Might have

01:07:45 ◼   ► It's big league. That's a big league design

01:07:48 ◼   ► I thought it was big Lee. No, it's not every time

01:07:52 ◼   ► No

01:07:52 ◼   ► Everybody who says that they were talking about Trump here Trump uses big league as an adjective and he's it doesn't make any sense to

01:07:59 ◼   ► Say bigly it wouldn't he says big league and but it comes out

01:08:03 ◼   ► I don't think not making sense is necessarily a per a yeah, but big league big league

01:08:08 ◼   ► Yeah, but big league is what he's saying. Trust me. All right, and Dave's you're gonna have these blowaway designs for install

01:08:14 ◼   ► All right. Keep going. You can even see it when the White House transcribes his remarks. It's it's big league

01:08:19 ◼   ► It's gonna be a big league design

01:08:21 ◼   ► You sure I'm just auto-crafting for

01:08:23 ◼   ► You know, I mean what I bet on it now, but I

01:08:29 ◼   ► No, I-- it's the same story.

01:08:36 ◼   ► But to me, it makes more sense with the iPhone than the iPad.

01:08:39 ◼   ► And so the story with the iPhone is

01:08:41 ◼   ► that there would be what would presumably be called,

01:08:44 ◼   ► or at least described-- I mean, again,

01:08:46 ◼   ► marketing names are the hardest thing to know for sure,

01:08:48 ◼   ► because they're the tightest held secrets.

01:08:50 ◼   ► But it sounds like they're going to do the 7S and 7S+ exactly

01:08:56 ◼   ► like you would think, where it's the same form factor,

01:09:00 ◼   ► close enough down to the tenth of a millimeter,

01:09:03 ◼   ► where you can probably use the same case with presumably

01:09:09 ◼   ► a better camera and maybe a next generation A series CPU.

01:09:16 ◼   ► Everything-- exactly what you think a 7S would be.

01:09:19 ◼   ► And then also this new iPhone.

01:09:24 ◼   ► I don't, if this is any, if there's any truth to this,

01:09:27 ◼   ► I don't think there's any chance that they call

01:09:29 ◼   ► this new iPhone the iPhone 8.

01:09:31 ◼   ► There's just no way.

01:09:32 ◼   ► I think that they would call it the iPhone Pro.

01:09:34 ◼   ► Because I think that's the only way that you can have

01:09:38 ◼   ► a reasonable amount of excitement for the new 7S and 7S+

01:09:42 ◼   ► and have this new phone.

01:09:46 ◼   ► Like it doesn't make sense to me to have an iPhone 8

01:09:49 ◼   ► and a 7S in the same year.

01:09:51 ◼   ► Like why not just, 'cause who wouldn't just buy the 8?

01:09:54 ◼   ► Well, it's going to be expensive though, right?

01:09:57 ◼   ► Like it's the part of the room where it's going to be like a

01:09:59 ◼   ► thousand dollars, which is like, if you actually look at like

01:10:01 ◼   ► the, the full price of iPhones, that is not that ridiculous.

01:10:04 ◼   ► It's like 150 bucks more than a, than a similar respect.

01:10:08 ◼   ► Plus model would be right.

01:10:09 ◼   ► My assume if you assume that it probably starts at 128 or 256,

01:10:14 ◼   ► right?

01:10:14 ◼   ► Like which it probably does the 256.

01:10:16 ◼   ► No rumor came out today that it's going to have to two models

01:10:20 ◼   ► 64 and 256.

01:10:21 ◼   ► Really?

01:10:24 ◼   ► So I would guess it might be like 1049 for 64 and 1149 for 256.

01:10:30 ◼   ► At least it's only two.

01:10:33 ◼   ► But the idea would be that this would get slotted

01:10:36 ◼   ► in at a new higher price point.

01:10:38 ◼   ► That the 7S and 7S+ would take the existing price points,

01:10:42 ◼   ► and that they're actually-- instead of going lower,

01:10:44 ◼   ► they're actually going more upscale.

01:10:47 ◼   ► And that is a very Apple-like thing to do.

01:10:50 ◼   ► Yeah, it makes sense on a lot of levels.

01:10:52 ◼   ► I mean, the cynical take is of course,

01:10:54 ◼   ► they're going to make a lot more money

01:10:55 ◼   ► because the ASP is going to go up

01:10:56 ◼   ► on their most profitable product and all that.

01:10:58 ◼   ► That's a big deal for them financially,

01:11:01 ◼   ► for their performance on Wall Street, et cetera.

01:11:02 ◼   ► Okay, but also, there's good reasons for it also.

01:11:05 ◼   ► Like, one of them is they can afford

01:11:08 ◼   ► to put higher priced parts in this one.

01:11:11 ◼   ► So you could have something that maybe

01:11:14 ◼   ► they couldn't afford parts price-wise

01:11:17 ◼   ► to put in all the iPhones for a year,

01:11:19 ◼   ► 'cause that's a lot of phones,

01:11:20 ◼   ► then they can have it in this model for people who are willing to pay another couple hundred

01:11:23 ◼   ► bucks. And then also, you know, if the rumors are true that they're doing this crazy edge-to-edge

01:11:28 ◼   ► screen thing, I think it's pretty clearly going to be OLED. OLEDs are at this scale,

01:11:34 ◼   ► like possibly they're having production yield problems with the type and quality and whatever

01:11:39 ◼   ► that they're making. And so maybe they can't make like 80 million of them a quarter, whatever

01:11:43 ◼   ► the number is. So they have to have like a mainstream iPhone for this coming year that

01:11:49 ◼   ► isn't this crazy new screen, but they also

01:11:52 ◼   ► want to have this crazy new screen in whatever quantity

01:11:54 ◼   ► they can make for people who are willing to pay for it.

01:11:57 ◼   ► And it lets them keep the kind of innovation crown going.

01:12:03 ◼   ► Because it's like this wonderful showpiece

01:12:06 ◼   ► at the top of the line, even if like 60% of the buyers

01:12:09 ◼   ► aren't buying it.

01:12:12 ◼   ► I think, though, if they do this,

01:12:14 ◼   ► it has to be in sufficient quantity

01:12:17 ◼   ► that they can meet demand as well as they've met it

01:12:19 ◼   ► in recent years with whatever the new top of the line is.

01:12:23 ◼   ► Because I think a ton of people are going to want this,

01:12:26 ◼   ► if this exact rumor comes true.

01:12:29 ◼   ► I don't know if it's 40%, but it's going to be,

01:12:32 ◼   ► it's not going to be like just a sliver.

01:12:34 ◼   ► There's going to be an awful lot of people who,

01:12:37 ◼   ► for an extra 100 or $200 or even $300,

01:12:40 ◼   ► are going to say, I want the new hotness.

01:12:42 ◼   ► And if it's like, I could see this,

01:12:46 ◼   ► I think it's a risk if they're really going to do this.

01:12:49 ◼   ► And I think the idea-- if your complaint about Apple

01:12:51 ◼   ► is they don't take risks anymore, here's your story.

01:12:54 ◼   ► Because the risk I see happening is

01:12:56 ◼   ► if they make this announcement and 40% of everybody who

01:13:02 ◼   ► wants to buy a new iPhone in September wants this one,

01:13:05 ◼   ► and it's instantly backordered three months or something,

01:13:09 ◼   ► and nobody can get it instantly--

01:13:11 ◼   ► It will be.

01:13:12 ◼   ► --none of those people are then going to say, oh, cancel

01:13:15 ◼   ► my order, I'll get the 7S.

01:13:17 ◼   ► Nobody's going to do that.

01:13:18 ◼   ► They're all going to say, I'll wait.

01:13:20 ◼   ► So what I could see happening, if they can't meet demand,

01:13:24 ◼   ► at least as well as they've done in recent years,

01:13:26 ◼   ► with just to say, like in the quarter they just reported,

01:13:31 ◼   ► if they can't meet demand for this iPhone Pro

01:13:33 ◼   ► as well as they did for the 7 and 7 Plus three months ago,

01:13:38 ◼   ► in what turned out to be the best selling iPhone quarter

01:13:42 ◼   ► ever, then I think they're in real trouble,

01:13:46 ◼   ► because everybody who's waiting for it

01:13:48 ◼   ► is not going to settle on the 7S and 7S Plus.

01:13:50 ◼   ► And then year over year, it's going

01:13:51 ◼   ► to look bad, because they're going to take a big hit.

01:13:55 ◼   ► It'll even out eventually, because eventually-- it's

01:13:57 ◼   ► not like these people waiting for the iPhone Pro

01:13:59 ◼   ► are going to switch to Android.

01:14:01 ◼   ► They'll wait till January or February or March

01:14:03 ◼   ► or however long it takes to get it.

01:14:06 ◼   ► But it's going to look bad at that year over year,

01:14:09 ◼   ► quarter over quarter demand.

01:14:11 ◼   ► So I think that the idea, I've seen people say, oh, they'll do this, and it's sort of just like

01:14:17 ◼   ► a, like the 20th anniversary Mac, you know, it's like a little thing at the fringe for just a

01:14:23 ◼   ► handful of people who are willing to spend a little bit more. I don't think that's the case

01:14:29 ◼   ► at all. I think this might be the best-selling phone they come out with next year. And I happen

01:14:34 ◼   ► to know, I just, anecdotally, I see lots of people on Twitter, the people who really care. I mean,

01:14:38 ◼   ► I mean, I've gone on then this along with the iPhone 7

01:14:43 ◼   ► looking so much like an iPhone 6 and 6s.

01:14:47 ◼   ► I can't see why people are so obsessed

01:14:49 ◼   ► with the exterior of the phone.

01:14:51 ◼   ► But it's true that an awful lot of people

01:14:53 ◼   ► are, that they're not even getting

01:14:55 ◼   ► into what the camera does, how good the screen looks,

01:14:58 ◼   ► how good the touch sensor is, how good the new virtual home

01:15:01 ◼   ► button is, and all the other things

01:15:03 ◼   ► that there are to like about it.

01:15:04 ◼   ► There's an awful lot of people.

01:15:06 ◼   ► And you see it in all the tech reviews.

01:15:07 ◼   ► you certainly see it in most of the gadget reviews

01:15:09 ◼   ► that it's like, ah, it looks like the old iPhone, meh.

01:15:11 ◼   ► There's an awful lot of people who think like that

01:15:13 ◼   ► who've been waiting for years for, you know, screw it,

01:15:17 ◼   ► I'll hold onto my old phone for another year

01:15:19 ◼   ► because I know Apple's gonna come out

01:15:20 ◼   ► with a new thing eventually.

01:15:22 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, it matters, it matters a lot.

01:15:24 ◼   ► And I think you're right, like I think a lot of people

01:15:27 ◼   ► are going to want this new thing.

01:15:29 ◼   ► I mean, I think we've shown that as customers

01:15:32 ◼   ► that no matter what the new iPhone is,

01:15:35 ◼   ► matter how happy we are or aren't with it, you know, in

01:15:39 ◼   ► our social media posts and tech reviews and everything, we all

01:15:42 ◼   ► want it and we're all gonna buy it and we're all gonna pay

01:15:45 ◼   ► whatever it costs. So, yeah, they're gonna if this thing is

01:15:49 ◼   ► real, unless it unless it has some obscene downside which it

01:15:53 ◼   ► probably won't and and an extra 150 bucks is probably not

01:15:57 ◼   ► enough of a downside for enough people. Then they're gonna sell

01:16:01 ◼   ► this thing like literally just they're gonna sell as many as

01:16:04 ◼   ► as many as they can possibly make.

01:16:06 ◼   ► - I really wonder why people would buy the 7S and 7S Plus.

01:16:11 ◼   ► I can totally see why they would keep selling the 7

01:16:15 ◼   ► and 7 Plus at lower prices, but I just can't see

01:16:18 ◼   ► why people would sign up.

01:16:21 ◼   ► I guess it's people who have more sense, you know,

01:16:24 ◼   ► than I do financially and who are like,

01:16:25 ◼   ► "Well, it is $200, I'll just get the 7S."

01:16:29 ◼   ► - Yeah, and that's a lot of people.

01:16:32 ◼   ► Like, it's everybody who doesn't buy the top-of-the-line model in any other year.

01:16:38 ◼   ► Right. Right. People who don't, you know, don't buy the 256, even though they only

01:16:45 ◼   ► use 128 of their storage, just in case they—

01:16:48 ◼   ► I don't even buy the 256.

01:16:49 ◼   ► I do.

01:16:50 ◼   ► I know.

01:16:50 ◼   ► I can't stand the thought of not having the best one. I just can't. And I often think,

01:16:56 ◼   ► like—and then I talk—I say to myself, like, "What happens if you're, like, out and about,

01:16:59 ◼   ► and like breaking news happens and you start shooting video like of this like major event like I don't want to run out of

01:17:06 ◼   ► Space to shoot video because by I cheaped out on my phone by $100

01:17:10 ◼   ► You'd have to be shooting a lot of video. Well, I don't know just thought that occurs to me

01:17:16 ◼   ► I think the battery would die before you fill it up

01:17:18 ◼   ► We'll come back to this

01:17:20 ◼   ► I'm gonna take another break here for a sponsor

01:17:22 ◼   ► But we I'm not done with this because I want to take this back to the iPad because I don't think I don't think the iPhone

01:17:28 ◼   ► and story works with the iPad.

01:17:31 ◼   ► But I'm going to take a break here, and thanks

01:17:32 ◼   ► to our next sponsor, our good friends at Eero.

01:17:35 ◼   ► You guys know who Eero is.

01:17:36 ◼   ► We talk about them a lot lately.

01:17:38 ◼   ► They're new Wi-Fi base stations.

01:17:41 ◼   ► The old model of Wi-Fi is that you get a router,

01:17:44 ◼   ► you hook it up to your cable modem,

01:17:45 ◼   ► put it somewhere, probably wherever your cable box is

01:17:48 ◼   ► in your house, and then hope that that one router

01:17:50 ◼   ► would give you good Wi-Fi throughout your whole house.

01:17:54 ◼   ► We've been doing that for like 15 years.

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01:17:58 ◼   ► And the old way, if you did that,

01:17:59 ◼   ► you could also maybe get like an extender or something,

01:18:02 ◼   ► but then all of a sudden you're playing like

01:18:03 ◼   ► junior sysadmin trying to get this to work

01:18:06 ◼   ► to have like a second device

01:18:08 ◼   ► that connects to the first device

01:18:09 ◼   ► and somehow extends the same network

01:18:11 ◼   ► so that when you're just open your device,

01:18:14 ◼   ► it looks like the same network,

01:18:16 ◼   ► whether you're upstairs or downstairs or whatever.

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01:18:23 ◼   ► to have multiple devices spread throughout your house.

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01:18:33 ◼   ► You don't even have to separate which device is the main one

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01:18:48 ◼   ► If you have a Wi-Fi router anywhere in your house,

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01:18:59 ◼   ► your house in, how many square feet,

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01:19:02 ◼   ► If you buy four and you really only need three,

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01:20:15 ◼   ► I think you get expedited shipping.

01:20:18 ◼   ► Yeah, that's pretty-- - I'm pretty sure

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01:20:22 ◼   ► So use that code, the talk show.

01:20:24 ◼   ► What's your code?

01:20:25 ◼   ► Probably ATP?

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01:20:27 ◼   ► - You can use ATP too, and then Marco

01:20:29 ◼   ► will get credit for it.

01:20:30 ◼   ► Either way, it's fine with me.

01:20:31 ◼   ► Good company, eero.

01:20:34 ◼   ► So anyway, I don't think that this middle iPad

01:20:40 ◼   ► that doesn't have a bezel, I don't think that it has

01:20:43 ◼   ► that same cache that this rumored iPhone does.

01:20:47 ◼   ► Like, would I pay an extra $200

01:20:50 ◼   ► to get a way cooler looking iPhone?

01:20:52 ◼   ► Yes.

01:20:53 ◼   ► Would I pay an extra $200 to get a cooler looking iPad?

01:20:55 ◼   ► No.

01:20:56 ◼   ► I don't think so.

01:20:58 ◼   ► - Well, I think it's, you know,

01:21:00 ◼   ► the iPad approach that Apple has taken in recent years

01:21:04 ◼   ► has been pretty much scattershot.

01:21:06 ◼   ► Just like, we have this product category,

01:21:09 ◼   ► it's not performing as well as we want it to or need it to.

01:21:13 ◼   ► So, let's try a bunch of stuff.

01:21:16 ◼   ► And that has resulted in a lot of weird attempts for things

01:21:19 ◼   ► and a lot of things that are really good.

01:21:21 ◼   ► And the whole iPad Pro branch of the product line,

01:21:25 ◼   ► the whole thing with making a pencil

01:21:28 ◼   ► after everyone assumed Apple never would

01:21:30 ◼   ► 'cause Steve Jobs made one comment 20 years ago.

01:21:33 ◼   ► They've been just trying a bunch of stuff.

01:21:38 ◼   ► And the fact is, what most people need out of their iPads

01:21:44 ◼   ► to get more work done or more of their work done

01:21:47 ◼   ► is really tricky, difficult, long-term software stuff

01:21:52 ◼   ► that's much harder to do.

01:21:53 ◼   ► It's much easier to just,

01:21:55 ◼   ► let's try some new screen sizes

01:21:56 ◼   ► and some new hardware abilities.

01:21:58 ◼   ► That's actually easier to do than,

01:22:00 ◼   ► let's figure out file management on iOS or windowing.

01:22:04 ◼   ► Those are way harder.

01:22:06 ◼   ► Or let's fix the App Store pricing ecosystem.

01:22:10 ◼   ► That's way harder than Apple,

01:22:13 ◼   ► who's already an excellent hardware company,

01:22:15 ◼   ► making one more screen size,

01:22:16 ◼   ► or making one more hardware configuration.

01:22:18 ◼   ► - The iPad has never been, to my mind,

01:22:21 ◼   ► an ooh and aah industrial design product,

01:22:25 ◼   ► except for maybe the first one.

01:22:28 ◼   ► The first one was like,

01:22:30 ◼   ► 'cause it was just like a quote unquote,

01:22:32 ◼   ► they're making a tablet,

01:22:33 ◼   ► nobody knows it's gonna be thick,

01:22:35 ◼   ► is what, how big is it, nobody knew, you know,

01:22:38 ◼   ► what it was gonna be like.

01:22:41 ◼   ► And then we saw it and it was like,

01:22:42 ◼   ► this is really nice and it's wow this is really kind of cool to have something with the touch

01:22:46 ◼   ► latency of an iPhone on a big screen. It was impressive but then every iteration since then

01:22:53 ◼   ► has been very iterative to my mind. Like there's never been one generation where you're like

01:22:58 ◼   ► whoa with the possible exception of the move from non-retina to retina but even then it's not really

01:23:06 ◼   ► the way it looks without turning it on,

01:23:11 ◼   ► you know, like the rumors about this iPhone Pro or iPhone 8

01:23:15 ◼   ► or whatever you want to call it, are that it's going to look

01:23:17 ◼   ► like, wow, what is that before you even turn it on?

01:23:22 ◼   ► It doesn't seem-- you know, that was never really the case

01:23:24 ◼   ► with iPads.

01:23:25 ◼   ► I mean, the current iPads look an awful lot

01:23:28 ◼   ► like the original one.

01:23:29 ◼   ► I mean, the backs are flat now, and the bezel on the side

01:23:33 ◼   ► is narrower.

01:23:34 ◼   ► But like the top and bottom bezel

01:23:35 ◼   ► is almost exactly the same.

01:23:38 ◼   ► - I think what it is, it's a combination of them

01:23:41 ◼   ► trying to figure out what else can we try here

01:23:44 ◼   ► to turn around the sales curve and to let this product

01:23:47 ◼   ► really come into its own.

01:23:49 ◼   ► And then also just like the iPad,

01:23:52 ◼   ► I don't think it's about flashiness.

01:23:54 ◼   ► I think this is actually just about utility.

01:23:56 ◼   ► The iPad really struggles between how much screen size

01:24:01 ◼   ► you get versus how nice it is to use.

01:24:03 ◼   ► It's really this incredibly polar opposite relationship

01:24:07 ◼   ► where if you want to get anything more done on it

01:24:11 ◼   ► than browsing the web and watching video,

01:24:14 ◼   ► you really want more screen space.

01:24:16 ◼   ► If you try multitasking at all, the 9.7 can do it,

01:24:21 ◼   ► but it's pretty tight.

01:24:23 ◼   ► And the people we know in the community

01:24:26 ◼   ► who are big pro iPad users who get a lot of their work done

01:24:30 ◼   ► on iPads almost always prefer the 12.9 now

01:24:34 ◼   ► for getting like quote work done,

01:24:36 ◼   ► because it has more screen space.

01:24:38 ◼   ► But anyone who's ever used a 12.9 can tell you

01:24:42 ◼   ► like it's pretty big for an iPad.

01:24:45 ◼   ► Like for a laptop it's still nice and small,

01:24:47 ◼   ► but for an iPad the way you use and hold an iPad,

01:24:52 ◼   ► it really is quite large.

01:24:55 ◼   ► And so adding that screen space to get the 12.9

01:25:00 ◼   ► and its ability to have multitasking be better

01:25:02 ◼   ► and to get more work done and more effectively

01:25:05 ◼   ► has come at a great cost of this kind of unwieldy size

01:25:09 ◼   ► for hand-holded iPad use.

01:25:11 ◼   ► That's why I think a lot of 12.9 users use keyboards

01:25:15 ◼   ► and stuff where it's kind of more like a laptop

01:25:17 ◼   ► propped up on a table more of the time

01:25:19 ◼   ► 'cause if you're actually using it one-handed,

01:25:21 ◼   ► one hand to hold it and the other hand to tuck shit

01:25:23 ◼   ► or use the pencil, that's a pretty big iPad to do that with.

01:25:26 ◼   ► It's kind of awkward, it's kind of unwieldy.

01:25:28 ◼   ► So this 10 point whatever I think is an attempt to cram

01:25:33 ◼   ► that screen resolution into the smaller body,

01:25:37 ◼   ► which for iPad power users,

01:25:40 ◼   ► and I guess we don't know how many of those there are,

01:25:43 ◼   ► but for iPad power users, that sounds incredible.

01:25:46 ◼   ► That sounds like exactly what so many people would want

01:25:49 ◼   ► in I want an iPad that is still small enough

01:25:54 ◼   ► to feel and handle like an iPad.

01:25:57 ◼   ► and that means 9.7 roughly physical dimensions.

01:26:01 ◼   ► But that would have more screen space

01:26:03 ◼   ► so I could better multitask

01:26:04 ◼   ► and get more of my work done on this device

01:26:06 ◼   ► or get my work done more efficiently on this device.

01:26:08 ◼   ► - And the speculation I think is that the pixel resolution,

01:26:11 ◼   ► instead of being at 266 pixels print,

01:26:15 ◼   ► it's gonna be 326,

01:26:17 ◼   ► which is the pixel resolution of the Retina Mini.

01:26:21 ◼   ► - And the iPhone. - And the iPhone.

01:26:23 ◼   ► That seems really small to me

01:26:26 ◼   ► for a device that you would hold at a further away distance,

01:26:29 ◼   ► but maybe that's just my aging vision speaking.

01:26:32 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:26:33 ◼   ► - It's just like the iPad Mini.

01:26:34 ◼   ► You know, it's like if the iPad, you know,

01:26:35 ◼   ► the iPad Mini just has like the 9.7 resolution shrunk down,

01:26:39 ◼   ► it's gonna be that same relationship.

01:26:40 ◼   ► So like if the iPad Mini looks acceptable to you

01:26:43 ◼   ► and you can use it without eye strain,

01:26:44 ◼   ► then this would probably work for you too.

01:26:46 ◼   ► - It just seems like a confusing decision though,

01:26:50 ◼   ► which one you would buy, doesn't it?

01:26:52 ◼   ► You don't think so.

01:26:53 ◼   ► - Well, it's probably gonna be more expensive

01:26:54 ◼   ► than the equivalent 9.7.

01:26:56 ◼   ► So it's probably gonna be like 100 bucks more at least,

01:26:58 ◼   ► so you know, and it may be slightly cheaper

01:27:01 ◼   ► than the 12.9 version of it.

01:27:03 ◼   ► So who knows?

01:27:04 ◼   ► I mean, we'll see what they do.

01:27:07 ◼   ► I think at this point, it's very clear

01:27:09 ◼   ► that Apple's strategy with the iPad,

01:27:10 ◼   ► again, it's scattershot, it's like,

01:27:12 ◼   ► let's just try a bunch of stuff and see what works,

01:27:15 ◼   ► and just give people tons and tons of options.

01:27:17 ◼   ► You know, they will now sell you an iPad

01:27:21 ◼   ► at pretty much every $100 price point from $250

01:27:24 ◼   ► on up to like $1100.

01:27:27 ◼   ► And it's like any of these price points,

01:27:28 ◼   ► pick your price, whatever you're willing to pay for an iPad,

01:27:31 ◼   ► we got one to sell you at exactly that price point,

01:27:33 ◼   ► but a little bit more after accessories.

01:27:35 ◼   ► And I think for what they're trying to do with the iPad,

01:27:40 ◼   ► like I think it's very clear that again,

01:27:41 ◼   ► I think they maybe don't really know what will work

01:27:46 ◼   ► and what won't to boost sales

01:27:49 ◼   ► or to carry this platform forward.

01:27:51 ◼   ► So they are just trying a bunch of random stuff

01:27:53 ◼   ► at this point.

01:27:54 ◼   ► And I'm sure there's more thought that goes into it

01:27:55 ◼   ► than that, but it certainly seems like they're taking

01:27:58 ◼   ► a lot of hardware risks here in order to just cover

01:28:01 ◼   ► more of the market in hopes that people will want

01:28:05 ◼   ► what they're now making without having to really

01:28:07 ◼   ► dramatically change iOS to be more PC-like.

01:28:10 ◼   ► - I don't know, it just seems really,

01:28:11 ◼   ► it just seems really curious to me that it would,

01:28:13 ◼   ► that this new bezel design would debut alongside

01:28:17 ◼   ► the iPad Pro 2, you know?

01:28:20 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:28:21 ◼   ► I believe, I'm not saying I don't--

01:28:23 ◼   ► - You probably wouldn't under Steve,

01:28:24 ◼   ► but I think this is kind of a hallmark of Tim Cook's Apple,

01:28:26 ◼   ► is like, you know, just, is not an aversion

01:28:31 ◼   ► to throwing a bunch of different options out there

01:28:33 ◼   ► for people to choose from. - I don't think

01:28:34 ◼   ► that's Tim Cook, I really don't.

01:28:36 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:28:37 ◼   ► I don't know what to think.

01:28:39 ◼   ► I think there's something we're missing if this is true.