The Talk Show

00:00:00 ◼   ► You ready for this?

00:00:02 ◼   ► Yes.

00:00:04 ◼   ► I have to...

00:00:06 ◼   ► You do more podcasts than I do. You do a bunch.

00:00:08 ◼   ► And so I feel like

00:00:10 ◼   ► you've got better podcasts.

00:00:12 ◼   ► Mine aren't as long though. I'm not sure if I do have

00:00:14 ◼   ► mine add up in time to the amount that you...

00:00:16 ◼   ► Right. I

00:00:18 ◼   ► need to work up like a head of steam.

00:00:20 ◼   ► But then once I get it going

00:00:22 ◼   ► it goes. But it's breaking that...

00:00:24 ◼   ► Oh man. I don't know.

00:00:26 ◼   ► I just got a lot going on here.

00:00:28 ◼   ► Anyway, we got a interesting, interesting week. I mean, there's a bunch of it is crazy.

00:00:35 ◼   ► Like, you know, like after like a few weeks after WWDC and and you often I think this

00:00:40 ◼   ► time is not necessarily like going on. But I think part of it is just that there's stuff

00:00:47 ◼   ► that's in the general tech news sphere that is just happens to be erupting like the whole

00:00:52 ◼   ► Uber thing and Amazon buying Whole Foods.

00:00:57 ◼   ► And that's just coincidental.

00:00:58 ◼   ► But then part of it too is a bunch of the stuff

00:01:01 ◼   ► we wanna talk about is 10 year iPhone anniversary,

00:01:03 ◼   ► which isn't coincidental.

00:01:05 ◼   ► So it's not a surprise, but it is unusual

00:01:08 ◼   ► where I feel like, and maybe I'm just misremembering,

00:01:11 ◼   ► but it seems to me like after most WWDCs,

00:01:14 ◼   ► the rest of the month we just talk about

00:01:15 ◼   ► what happened at WWDC and I feel like

00:01:17 ◼   ► we don't even have time today to go back

00:01:19 ◼   ► to anything from WWDC.

00:01:21 ◼   ► Right, yeah, rehash that.

00:01:22 ◼   ► - Have you seen the new iPad yet?

00:01:26 ◼   ► - I did, yeah, yeah, I managed to get over the storage,

00:01:30 ◼   ► take a look at it.

00:01:32 ◼   ► I think, you mean the 10.5 inch?

00:01:34 ◼   ► - Yes, exactly.

00:01:34 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah. - With ProMotion.

00:01:36 ◼   ► - You know, in not having my 9.7 inch one with me,

00:01:41 ◼   ► it didn't really notice the difference, frankly.

00:01:44 ◼   ► - No, not really.

00:01:45 ◼   ► - I think if I held them up together,

00:01:46 ◼   ► I would notice the difference, but it didn't see,

00:01:47 ◼   ► it seemed like, oh, this is the same,

00:01:49 ◼   ► like I had to ask somebody, I was like,

00:01:50 ◼   ► This is the 10.5.

00:01:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, it totally has that effect.

00:01:55 ◼   ► But then Amy has a 9.7 here, and hers is white,

00:02:00 ◼   ► which I think really accentuates the bezels.

00:02:03 ◼   ► And all of a sudden, it's like it makes that,

00:02:07 ◼   ► the 9.7 Pro, which is like the same dimensions

00:02:10 ◼   ► as the iPad Air and later, it makes them feel

00:02:14 ◼   ► like they're the old original iPods

00:02:16 ◼   ► with the big, inch-thick bezels all along every side.

00:02:19 ◼   ► Right. It's like, all of a sudden it's like, why do they have these thick

00:02:21 ◼   ► bezels all over the place?

00:02:22 ◼   ► I'm a little worried about, uh, I think sometimes I, even with, uh, I have

00:02:28 ◼   ► an iPad air too, and even with that, I extraneous Lee touch along the side

00:02:34 ◼   ► of the, the bezel sometimes.

00:02:35 ◼   ► Um, and I'm a little concerned that that's going to just get worse.

00:02:39 ◼   ► But, um, but I think, you know, eventually I think I'm, I'm going to get to,

00:02:43 ◼   ► I'm going to get a 10.5 inch.

00:02:45 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:02:45 ◼   ► I think it was fantastic.

00:02:47 ◼   ► Dan, did you, did you notice the promotion?

00:02:49 ◼   ► scrolling? Yeah, yeah, I did. It's really smooth. I mean, it just gets better and better.

00:02:58 ◼   ► But the whole reason I ask is because it really is the one thing that they announced that

00:03:02 ◼   ► you have to see to believe. You know what I mean? I don't need to see the new MacBook.

00:03:07 ◼   ► I get it. I know what those displays look like. I know what the keyboard's like. I can

00:03:13 ◼   ► kind of imagine it, you know?

00:03:14 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:03:15 ◼   ► - But the promotion you really have to see.

00:03:17 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:03:19 ◼   ► - I hope that--

00:03:20 ◼   ► - I'm actually looking forward to, well, I mean,

00:03:21 ◼   ► I think the, so I'm kind of waiting just because

00:03:23 ◼   ► I want to wait until iOS 11 comes out.

00:03:26 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:03:27 ◼   ► - And I'm, you know, maybe sometime in November,

00:03:29 ◼   ► I'll be like, that's what my birthday is too, so.

00:03:31 ◼   ► Speaking of coincidences.

00:03:35 ◼   ► - Well, the other thing too is it seems like

00:03:38 ◼   ► iPad development has slowed down a little bit.

00:03:41 ◼   ► like so if you plan to wait until iOS 11 comes out in October or whenever, I don't think you have any

00:03:47 ◼   ► fear that you're not getting your money's worth out of it, you know, like because even what's the

00:03:52 ◼   ► soonest they could replace it would be next June at WWDC, you know, so what? Yeah, and I just feel

00:03:58 ◼   ► like with this this jump to promotion, I really doubt that the next iPhone or iPad is going to

00:04:04 ◼   ► have something that really makes you regret it. It feels like this is the... I already had my Macbook

00:04:08 ◼   ► pro-obsoleted, so what difference does it make?

00:04:13 ◼   ► The other thing I've saw, and it's pretty interesting,

00:04:15 ◼   ► because I don't have this complaint,

00:04:17 ◼   ► even though I'm a nitpicky person and I notice details.

00:04:20 ◼   ► But ever since iOS 7 come out, there's

00:04:22 ◼   ► a faction of people who feel like the animations in the OS

00:04:26 ◼   ► have gotten too slow and stuttery.

00:04:29 ◼   ► Either that it takes too long or that-- especially,

00:04:32 ◼   ► there's people who complain about the frame

00:04:34 ◼   ► rate of the animations, like when you hit the home button

00:04:36 ◼   ► and the app zooms out and stuff.

00:04:38 ◼   ► And I think I see what they mean, but it somehow doesn't bother me.

00:04:41 ◼   ► But I think I would say that I notice it a little bit, but I'm running an iPhone SE.

00:04:47 ◼   ► Yeah. And I don't think I notice it on my iPad here too.

00:04:51 ◼   ► Yeah, but I don't know about that. I feel like the SE is such an overpowered GPU for the tiny

00:04:57 ◼   ► little screen that I almost feel like if you see it on the SE, it's proof that it's a real thing.

00:05:02 ◼   ► Yeah, it could be.

00:05:03 ◼   ► Like the SE is not a weak iPhone.

00:05:07 ◼   ► Like if you were still running the 5S, then yes.

00:05:10 ◼   ► Then there's a reason for it.

00:05:12 ◼   ► But I kind of feel like the fact that if you kind of notice

00:05:15 ◼   ► it on the SE, that's the proof of it.

00:05:17 ◼   ► I feel like ProMotion puts that to rest.

00:05:20 ◼   ► And they're probably similar.

00:05:21 ◼   ► Like my iPad Air 2 and my SE, I don't

00:05:23 ◼   ► know off the top of my head.

00:05:24 ◼   ► But they're probably similar processors, if not the same,

00:05:27 ◼   ► right?

00:05:27 ◼   ► Yeah, I think so.

00:05:30 ◼   ► So I don't know why.

00:05:31 ◼   ► I mean, I don't use my iPad Air 2 as much.

00:05:33 ◼   ► I mean, maybe that's why, but.

00:05:36 ◼   ► - Yeah, so anyway, I feel like that's the answer

00:05:38 ◼   ► to anybody who has complaints about the frame rate of stuff.

00:05:40 ◼   ► - Just get a 10.5 inch iPad.

00:05:45 ◼   ► - Get a new iPad.

00:05:45 ◼   ► - Yeah. (laughs)

00:05:48 ◼   ► - Oh, follow up, I have a bit of follow up

00:05:51 ◼   ► from my show last week with Serenity Caldwell,

00:05:53 ◼   ► where, surprise, surprise, I got off on a tangent.

00:05:57 ◼   ► We were talking about pencils,

00:05:59 ◼   ► and I was talking about my favorite pencil

00:06:01 ◼   ► from high school, the Dixon Ticonderoga,

00:06:04 ◼   ► and how they've gone downhill,

00:06:06 ◼   ► because back then they were made in America

00:06:08 ◼   ► from American timber and graphite

00:06:11 ◼   ► and an old American factory with American standards

00:06:14 ◼   ► and now they're cheap pieces of crap made in China.

00:06:17 ◼   ► I just cannot even believe that they,

00:06:20 ◼   ► I can't believe they put the name on them.

00:06:22 ◼   ► Anyway, I got a nice note from a guy named Michael Hagen

00:06:26 ◼   ► who writes a blog called Leadfast,

00:06:29 ◼   ► L-E-A-D-F-A-S-T dot org.

00:06:32 ◼   ► And it's an entire blog devoted to pencils.

00:06:35 ◼   ► - Wow. - And notebooks.

00:06:36 ◼   ► And it's really nice.

00:06:38 ◼   ► I'm gonna put a link to the show notes.

00:06:40 ◼   ► 'Cause he's, he was, as you might imagine,

00:06:44 ◼   ► somebody who writes an entire blog devoted to pencils,

00:06:46 ◼   ► he's got very strong opinions,

00:06:47 ◼   ► noted that I was exactly correct

00:06:50 ◼   ► that the Chinese made Dixon Ticonderogurs,

00:06:52 ◼   ► were made from substandard wood and substandard lead,

00:06:55 ◼   ► and even had sloppy paint jobs on the, oh my God,

00:06:59 ◼   ► I just learned the name from it, of it on his blog.

00:07:01 ◼   ► The metal thing that connects the wood to the eraser.

00:07:05 ◼   ► It's called like a ferrule or something like that.

00:07:08 ◼   ► They even got sloppy on the paint job on that.

00:07:10 ◼   ► And that's like Dixon Ticonderoga's brand,

00:07:12 ◼   ► like the green ferrule with the yellow stripe

00:07:15 ◼   ► around the middle.

00:07:16 ◼   ► Like when you think an iconic pencil,

00:07:18 ◼   ► like if you just think, go to Getty Images

00:07:20 ◼   ► and look at a pencil, you're looking,

00:07:22 ◼   ► what you have in your mind is a Dixon Ticonderoga.

00:07:24 ◼   ► Anyway, the good news is,

00:07:27 ◼   ► is even though they're still made in China,

00:07:28 ◼   ► There's actually some recent ones that they've gone back to American cedar and and the quality is actually actually gone up. No

00:07:35 ◼   ► So how many pencils how many pencils to use in a regular basis? I I don't use pencils anymore

00:07:40 ◼   ► I haven't used a pencil in 20 years because they're so crappy or just be no because I've switched depends

00:07:47 ◼   ► Yeah, and I don't I very seldom have a need to erase anything. I don't make mistakes

00:07:53 ◼   ► Does does Jonas have like a hundred of them lying around for school? He loses pencils left and right?

00:07:58 ◼   ► It never has a pencil. I don't understand how that can be. We buy a lot of pencils and

00:08:03 ◼   ► And he's never got him and it always looks he's got like a pencil that's half the size it should be and has no eraser

00:08:12 ◼   ► Yeah, and that's what Hank has and we have to address this issue

00:08:17 ◼   ► We have a box of those big arrowhead

00:08:22 ◼   ► erasers that you know the the extra eraser you pop on yeah and they're right in my office every

00:08:27 ◼   ► you know that's not hidden everybody knows where they are so there's no reason not to have an

00:08:30 ◼   ► eraser and then he'll sit there and do his homework and and like not be able to erase stuff it's very

00:08:38 ◼   ► frustrating don't get me started years ago i got a box of black feet indian pencils oh man those

00:08:46 ◼   ► which i think was a rerun of them or something like that um i think it was like all the way back

00:08:50 ◼   ► in the 90s and I've just been working through those. I mean the erasers are like rock hard now,

00:08:54 ◼   ► so the erasers are basically useless, but the pens feel nice. They're pencils, they feel really good.

00:08:59 ◼   ► So I still have like eight of them in there. I have a box of Dixon Ticonderogas from the 90s

00:09:07 ◼   ► that I'm sure are the good ones, but I feel like I made the same critical mistake that you just

00:09:12 ◼   ► mentioned, which is that I thought I could save these for the rest of my life. I always have

00:09:15 ◼   ► pencils but now the erasers are like when you're younger you didn't know you

00:09:20 ◼   ► might not have known that that happens but I could still use them and put those

00:09:23 ◼   ► the that's right you got it you know where those are it was sort of like the

00:09:28 ◼   ► original like iPhone case peripherals the upsell yeah the other thing have you

00:09:37 ◼   ► noticed it I mean everybody I think with kids knows this now but it's like part

00:09:41 ◼   ► of the great sir I mean this in all sincerity the decline of American

00:09:45 ◼   ► society. I really mean it. Part of it is that schools are now short of supplies.

00:09:51 ◼   ► Again, kids, you have to come to school with your own pencils and paper and

00:09:55 ◼   ► stuff like that. Like when I was a kid, I went to public school,

00:09:59 ◼   ► there was an endless supply of paper and pencils. I mean, I guess pencils they kind

00:10:04 ◼   ► of metered out, but you didn't have to bring your own, you know, that you'd

00:10:08 ◼   ► be given a pencil. Yeah, but they didn't have to buy computers. I mean,

00:10:14 ◼   ► Maybe they had much more a lot more money to spend on pencils because they weren't spending like

00:10:18 ◼   ► And you always see these 500 bucks on a computer for each kid and you hear about these teachers

00:10:23 ◼   ► You know who out of their own salary broke by paper and and scissors and stuff like that. It's nuts. How's that possible?

00:10:30 ◼   ► It's absolutely horrendous. Yeah, so my whole but I gave a bunch of money earlier this year to like there's a

00:10:35 ◼   ► There's a site where you can donate to teachers projects. I would do that. That's a good. Yes. Yeah

00:10:43 ◼   ► I'll see if I can find it and send it to you.

00:10:44 ◼   ► But yeah, it's just that you read through the thing

00:10:47 ◼   ► and you're thinking like, why does it have to be done?

00:10:49 ◼   ► Like it's the same thing with like the kickstarters

00:10:51 ◼   ► for people's healthcare.

00:10:52 ◼   ► - Yeah, exactly.

00:10:53 ◼   ► Why this should not be a thing.

00:10:55 ◼   ► - This is not the way,

00:10:56 ◼   ► this is not the way a world-class country should operate.

00:10:59 ◼   ► - Let me take a break and thank our first sponsor

00:11:00 ◼   ► to get this show going.

00:11:02 ◼   ► Really, we gotta keep, we gotta get,

00:11:03 ◼   ► keep me, keep me going, John.

00:11:04 ◼   ► You gotta keep me, keep me, keep me moving.

00:11:06 ◼   ► - Trying.

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00:13:36 ◼   ► thanks to mail route for their continuing support of the talk show. Okay, so some follow up from

00:13:42 ◼   ► earlier in in this episode. Okay. The the SE has an A nine chip and the air two has an A eight x.

00:13:52 ◼   ► So it's probably me. Yeah.

00:14:03 ◼   ► what else can we talk about here? Yeah, you want to wade into one of the big ones? Well,

00:14:09 ◼   ► let's do the big one. I think the biggest one and the one that is has the most historical value,

00:14:15 ◼   ► no, no pun intended, it was John Markoff hosting a discussion at the Computer History Museum out in

00:14:22 ◼   ► Mountain View, California, where he had first discussion with three guys from the original

00:14:29 ◼   ► iPhone team Hugo

00:14:31 ◼   ► Finds I'm not quite sure how to pronounce his surname

00:14:33 ◼   ► Nitin ganatra and

00:14:36 ◼   ► Scott hearse

00:14:39 ◼   ► Nitin I know him I've met him. He's a very nice guy and he's been on the debug podcast with

00:14:46 ◼   ► yeah guy English and Renee Ritchie with Don Melton who was

00:14:52 ◼   ► Who's a great guy? He's a was a big shot on the Safari team

00:14:58 ◼   ► and is now out of Apple and has no fucks left to give.

00:15:03 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:15:05 ◼   ► That's true, you can see it with those guys on stage,

00:15:07 ◼   ► you know what I mean?

00:15:08 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:15:09 ◼   ► - And good Apple people remain Apple people

00:15:12 ◼   ► and they're not telling, there's no stories that they told

00:15:14 ◼   ► that I would consider out of turn,

00:15:16 ◼   ► they're certainly not spilling secrets,

00:15:18 ◼   ► but there's a relaxedness to them

00:15:20 ◼   ► that active Apple employees, especially the ones

00:15:24 ◼   ► with the most responsibilities, just don't have.

00:15:27 ◼   ► The funny one was, I think it was Hertz said, it's like someone was bugging him for something,

00:15:34 ◼   ► like "When's this, when are we gonna get this, when are we gonna get this?"

00:15:35 ◼   ► And they're like "When is Steve gonna get this?" And he said "He'll get it when it's fucking ready."

00:15:40 ◼   ► And Steve like sticks his head around the corner, like "Okay."

00:15:45 ◼   ► There were so many good stories that those guys had. That was a great one. I kind of feel like,

00:15:52 ◼   ► number one, you could feel the flop sweat of that moment, right? But I also feel like Steve Jobs was

00:15:58 ◼   ► the sort of guy who wasn't petty enough to take, you know, like he would see humor in that.

00:16:03 ◼   ► Yeah, I would think so completely. I mean, I think a lot of people think that that person would get

00:16:07 ◼   ► fired immediately. But right. And that's not that's not like he's like maybe George Steinbrenner

00:16:11 ◼   ► would do that. Right. That's the difference between Steve Jobs is tyranny and Steinbrenner.

00:16:17 ◼   ► It's like Jobs's was mostly rational. And as long as you're still getting the work done, you know,

00:16:21 ◼   ► you know and you know if he if he didn't get the thing in like the next 20 minutes then he would

00:16:25 ◼   ► have gotten fired yeah uh and then afterwards after those three fellows uh spoke with mark off

00:16:31 ◼   ► uh scott forestall was up for about an hour by himself uh so combination it was i loved it i

00:16:40 ◼   ► was really it was if you haven't watched this thing the whole two hours i i swear i've got this

00:16:45 ◼   ► link i'll put it in the show notes i'll bet most of you who are listening to me right now have

00:16:48 ◼   ► have watched it because it seems like if if you weren't anxious to watch that, I don't know why

00:16:54 ◼   ► you listen to my show. Like I can't imagine the what's outside the Venn diagram of people who

00:17:00 ◼   ► listen to the talk show and people who might want to watch Scott Forstall's first public appearance

00:17:06 ◼   ► since he was ousted from the company five years ago. And if you can get the audio, you can just,

00:17:10 ◼   ► I mean, the audio is fine. Yeah. You don't have to watch it. I mean, like some people don't have

00:17:13 ◼   ► time to sit down and necessarily watch it two hour. That is absolutely correct. You could treat

00:17:17 ◼   ► treat it as a podcast and it would work just fine.

00:17:20 ◼   ► For example, I will, along the same lines,

00:17:24 ◼   ► there's tens of thousands of people

00:17:26 ◼   ► who listen to the audio version of my live show

00:17:31 ◼   ► as opposed to watching the video.

00:17:33 ◼   ► Or I guess I don't know how many people listen

00:17:35 ◼   ► because I just get download numbers

00:17:37 ◼   ► and maybe that's inflated because people watch the video

00:17:41 ◼   ► and then their podcast player downloaded it.

00:17:44 ◼   ► So I don't know.

00:17:45 ◼   ► But I suspect that there are tens of thousands of people

00:17:47 ◼   ► to listen to the audio version.

00:17:49 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:17:50 ◼   ► - I gotta watch for Craig's hair.

00:17:52 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:17:55 ◼   ► - It's even better because he did that thing where he ran

00:17:57 ◼   ► and it's hair just blowing in the wind.

00:17:59 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:18:01 ◼   ► And it just always goes right back into place.

00:18:03 ◼   ► It's--

00:18:04 ◼   ► - It's very strange.

00:18:05 ◼   ► - Like that's the thing, you know,

00:18:07 ◼   ► everybody makes jokes about it, you know,

00:18:09 ◼   ► it's the Hair Force One or whatever his username is

00:18:13 ◼   ► in the demos and stuff like that.

00:18:15 ◼   ► But the thing that's most amazing about it

00:18:16 ◼   ► It isn't that he has nice looking hair, which he does,

00:18:19 ◼   ► but it's that it's seemingly, it combs itself somehow.

00:18:24 ◼   ► - Self-sustaining.

00:18:25 ◼   ► - Yeah, like it styles itself, and like he can get nervous

00:18:28 ◼   ► and like run his fingers through it, and you think,

00:18:31 ◼   ► oh man, you're messing up your hair, and then he lets go,

00:18:33 ◼   ► and it just goes right back into place.

00:18:36 ◼   ► It's like when Homer Simpson shaves his beard,

00:18:38 ◼   ► and the stubble just pops right back out.

00:18:40 ◼   ► Anyway, this was fantastic.

00:18:44 ◼   ► I don't even know where to start,

00:18:45 ◼   ► Except that I will say briefly, and somebody asked me,

00:18:49 ◼   ► I guess this is why I have a podcast,

00:18:50 ◼   ► is it's easier for me to talk about this,

00:18:52 ◼   ► shoot the shit with you,

00:18:53 ◼   ► than to write an article about it.

00:18:55 ◼   ► A couple people are like, "Hey, you're gonna write

00:18:58 ◼   ► "a big article about Forstall's appearance."

00:18:59 ◼   ► And I don't have, there's nothing in my mind

00:19:02 ◼   ► that needs to be said.

00:19:04 ◼   ► I feel like the interview speaks for itself.

00:19:06 ◼   ► And I just have meta commentary about it.

00:19:09 ◼   ► - Right.

00:19:10 ◼   ► We can retell the stories that they told.

00:19:13 ◼   ► - Yeah, we should distill all the stories.

00:19:15 ◼   ► My favorite.

00:19:15 ◼   ► The only thing that I thought was sort of weird was--

00:19:17 ◼   ► you talked about telling stories at a turn--

00:19:21 ◼   ► was that Forrestal kind of made Steve

00:19:23 ◼   ► sound like an idiot over the rocker.

00:19:26 ◼   ► Like, he just heard the name and thought, oh, the rocker,

00:19:29 ◼   ► it must be the same as the razor.

00:19:30 ◼   ► So it's going to be a nice little phone,

00:19:32 ◼   ► and we should get our music on it.

00:19:36 ◼   ► I think that that's kind of telling now,

00:19:38 ◼   ► and I think it's exactly what happened.

00:19:39 ◼   ► Which may be true.

00:19:41 ◼   ► Right.

00:19:41 ◼   ► Because there was a bit, too--

00:19:43 ◼   ► I mean, we'll get to it.

00:19:44 ◼   ► there's also along these same lines of the 10-year anniversary of the iPhone is

00:19:47 ◼   ► the the the book that came out this week I have a copy of the book I'm taking it

00:19:53 ◼   ► with me on a vacation starting soon and I plan to read it I look forward to it

00:19:57 ◼   ► but what's it called the one device by Brian merchant but there was a long

00:20:02 ◼   ► excerpt that ran in the verge that had some bits about the rocker from people

00:20:07 ◼   ► who were on the team and it sounds like that's you know I've said it it's ever

00:20:11 ◼   ► since the thing came out. I remember, you know, the very day that it was announced on stage,

00:20:18 ◼   ► I pretty sure I blogged on during fireball like it looked to me like jobs wanted to throw the

00:20:23 ◼   ► thing across the stage like because like the demo didn't even work. It was like it was supposed to

00:20:27 ◼   ► ring or something. You're supposed to get a phone call, you know, get a phone call while you're

00:20:30 ◼   ► playing music and show how it doesn't interrupt you or whatever. And it was it didn't work. And

00:20:35 ◼   ► I really thought he thought about just saying, you know what, screw it. We're not doing this.

00:20:40 ◼   ► But then in the book they said, they even said that Jobs' obvious disdain for the product on

00:20:45 ◼   ► stage angered the people from Singular, or maybe Motorola. The Singular people were like,

00:20:52 ◼   ► because it is funny though. You can look at it and laugh, but the other thing that came out of it was

00:20:58 ◼   ► that that rocker deal shepherded by Motorola, with Motorola who had all this experience dealing with

00:21:06 ◼   ► with carriers, shepherded Steve Jobs and whoever else,

00:21:11 ◼   ► probably Eddie Q, who's always like a negotiating partner

00:21:15 ◼   ► with Jobs, shepherded them through meeting the executives

00:21:20 ◼   ► from the carriers and stuff like that.

00:21:21 ◼   ► And it was, Jobs was, it sounds like he was already thinking

00:21:26 ◼   ► we're gonna do a phone, I'll just use this as a moment

00:21:33 ◼   ► to steal their expertise and relationships.

00:21:35 ◼   ► So this probably would have, when do you think that that project started?

00:21:43 ◼   ► Because it came out like this announced sometime in the summer of 2005?

00:21:48 ◼   ► Yeah, so I do, I don't know if the one device has a timeline.

00:21:54 ◼   ► I would like to see a timeline laid out of all of this stuff.

00:21:58 ◼   ► So it looks like they, because those three guys were talking, were mostly talking about 2005 when they started.

00:22:04 ◼   ► and things that already happened before that.

00:22:07 ◼   ► - So I would guess the rocker thing happened

00:22:08 ◼   ► in like 2004 or something.

00:22:10 ◼   ► - Yeah, they maybe started talking about it in 2004

00:22:12 ◼   ► or something like that, so they probably were doing both

00:22:14 ◼   ► at the same time.

00:22:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, which is funny because the iPod still had

00:22:19 ◼   ► a couple years left in it, but it just shows how Apple

00:22:23 ◼   ► was already simultaneously keep making the iPod

00:22:27 ◼   ► better and better, and its best sales years

00:22:29 ◼   ► were still ahead of it, but already had the proper

00:22:33 ◼   ► paranoia thinking like if cell phones got good enough, they would they would eat the iPod and they were cracked I

00:22:40 ◼   ► As an aside I just

00:22:47 ◼   ► wanted to say in terms of it well, not really an aside, but I feel like

00:22:51 ◼   ► Forstall really touched on this in in his talk with Markov for Markov asked him if he was worried

00:22:59 ◼   ► you know, did he know it was gonna be as big a deal as it would be?

00:23:03 ◼   ► And I think Forstall more or less said, "Yeah, I knew it because I could just see how good it was.

00:23:07 ◼   ► I knew that this was it."

00:23:10 ◼   ► And that all the other little issues like pricing and carrier support would work itself out over time,

00:23:16 ◼   ► but that this was so clearly the future of computing, and it was so good.

00:23:21 ◼   ► And he brought up this great analogy or criticism where like reviewers would come out and say like,

00:23:28 ◼   ► And I remember this. I remember this being like a thing like not just like one one publicized review

00:23:34 ◼   ► but it was like the way people reviewed phones back then was like

00:23:37 ◼   ► Wait a minute. This is pretty and it is you know, there's obviously, you know, I'll insert your

00:23:43 ◼   ► tooth out circa 2007 Apple's Apple cares about design

00:23:48 ◼   ► But nobody else does you know and look what it's got him in the PC market snark here

00:23:53 ◼   ► But they would say like look I open up my blackberry and I can go from off to sending an email in three taps and

00:24:01 ◼   ► On the iPhone. It's seven taps and a scroll, you know, this is way inefficient

00:24:06 ◼   ► This is you know, this isn't a good UI and it's you know

00:24:09 ◼   ► Here's how many taps it takes to play a song and stuff like that and forced

00:24:13 ◼   ► I was like that's you know

00:24:14 ◼   ► That's the most idiotic way to look at this ever like the reason it was a great design is people could actually understand it

00:24:20 ◼   ► And he's so true right like the left to right

00:24:23 ◼   ► Navigation and the way that they animated and that screens didn't you didn't tap a thing and something just popped on the screen it

00:24:30 ◼   ► Moved onto the screen and gave you a sense of spatiality

00:24:33 ◼   ► Is that a word?

00:24:35 ◼   ► Yeah, it is now I should ask sir. Kusa spatial miss

00:24:39 ◼   ► I don't think spatiality is a word. Well, it is now

00:24:43 ◼   ► It wasn't MDS until just now

00:24:46 ◼   ► Somebody quick put it on dictionary

00:24:50 ◼   ► - Oh, wait, spatiality.

00:24:51 ◼   ► - Is it really?

00:24:52 ◼   ► - Here it is, relating to space, spatiality.

00:24:56 ◼   ► Okay, so it's listed under the definition for spatial, yeah.

00:24:59 ◼   ► - Did I pronounce it right?

00:25:00 ◼   ► - It's a noun, it is a noun, spatiality.

00:25:02 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:25:03 ◼   ► - It sounds like you're mispronouncing special, specialty.

00:25:08 ◼   ► - The thing that, no, I had to,

00:25:12 ◼   ► for reasons, it is, it is just,

00:25:16 ◼   ► did I say I have to, we have to do this show quickly?

00:25:20 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:25:21 ◼   ► You implied it, I didn't know for sure.

00:25:23 ◼   ► - We had a package delivered, and we moved recently,

00:25:28 ◼   ► and the package, and I'm not gonna say who ordered it,

00:25:31 ◼   ► except that it wasn't me.

00:25:33 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:25:34 ◼   ► And Jonas doesn't order anything.

00:25:36 ◼   ► It was sent to our old house instead of the new house,

00:25:41 ◼   ► and it needed to, ideally would have been in our hands

00:25:48 ◼   ► before this coming weekend.

00:25:50 ◼   ► And so,

00:25:51 ◼   ► we rented the old house and the landlord had the package,

00:26:00 ◼   ► one of two shipments.

00:26:01 ◼   ► It was broken up into two shipments.

00:26:03 ◼   ► And the one shipment had one item in it

00:26:05 ◼   ► and the other one had like 10.

00:26:07 ◼   ► Well, guess which one was already there?

00:26:08 ◼   ► It was the one with one.

00:26:10 ◼   ► But I did pick that up.

00:26:12 ◼   ► And the UPS guy had left a sticker on the door

00:26:15 ◼   ► that said, here, try jute.

00:26:18 ◼   ► sorry, you know, we'll come back tomorrow.

00:26:20 ◼   ► And so using the tracking number on that,

00:26:23 ◼   ► instead of having it go to the old address again,

00:26:26 ◼   ► the next day, you can't change it to a new address though.

00:26:29 ◼   ► I think it's like a security thing.

00:26:31 ◼   ► When you have to send it to the depot or something.

00:26:33 ◼   ► You can send it to a pickup place.

00:26:35 ◼   ► And that way they can check your ID.

00:26:39 ◼   ► It makes total sense.

00:26:40 ◼   ► So I did that and I had a whole bunch of choices

00:26:45 ◼   ► to choose from that are nearby our house.

00:26:47 ◼   ► but a lot of them are just like little,

00:26:49 ◼   ► I don't know, like cell phone stores.

00:26:52 ◼   ► It's surprising which businesses are UPS access points.

00:26:56 ◼   ► That's what they call them.

00:26:57 ◼   ► So I chose the UPS store, 'cause you would think,

00:27:01 ◼   ► well, that's one that's gonna be reliable, right?

00:27:04 ◼   ► And it's a couple of blocks further away.

00:27:05 ◼   ► It's actually, it's not that close

00:27:08 ◼   ► to our house at all, actually.

00:27:09 ◼   ► But it's located in the ground floor of a big skyscraper,

00:27:14 ◼   ► like one of the biggest skyscrapers

00:27:16 ◼   ► Center City Philadelphia.

00:27:18 ◼   ► Magnificent building.

00:27:20 ◼   ► So I go in there, and of course, the package isn't there.

00:27:23 ◼   ► Even though the UPS app says it was delivered,

00:27:26 ◼   ► and they even tell me the name of the employee at the UPS

00:27:28 ◼   ► store who signed for it, it's not there.

00:27:32 ◼   ► It's not there.

00:27:33 ◼   ► They agree it's not there.

00:27:36 ◼   ► And so I ended up-- I had to call.

00:27:37 ◼   ► You'd think that maybe I could just deal with somebody there,

00:27:40 ◼   ► but it turns out a UPS store isn't really UPS.

00:27:44 ◼   ► So are they, yeah, they still like,

00:27:46 ◼   ► cause they used to be mailboxes, et cetera, right?

00:27:48 ◼   ► - Yeah, and apparently that's sort of how it,

00:27:51 ◼   ► that's exactly how it, it might as well just be, right.

00:27:54 ◼   ► I had to call the actual UPS and deal with them.

00:27:58 ◼   ► And I will say that they dealt with it fine.

00:28:00 ◼   ► And they called the retailer that we bought this stuff from

00:28:04 ◼   ► to tell them, you know, this guy definitely is not scamming.

00:28:07 ◼   ► You know, this package was somehow lost.

00:28:09 ◼   ► We got a full refund, blah, blah, blah.

00:28:10 ◼   ► But anyway, long story short,

00:28:13 ◼   ► I'm on my phone on hold in the lobby of this skyscraper at 5.30 in the afternoon yesterday.

00:28:22 ◼   ► And this building also has an entrance, an escalator that goes down to the commuter train

00:28:29 ◼   ► station which is about a block away.

00:28:32 ◼   ► So it's a lot of people leaving work from this building who obviously work there and

00:28:35 ◼   ► a lot of other people who are nearby buildings are streaming through the lobby to get to

00:28:39 ◼   ► the escalator to go down.

00:28:41 ◼   ► So while I was on hold for a very long time,

00:28:44 ◼   ► people watched, and I just watched how many people

00:28:47 ◼   ► are actually using their phone,

00:28:50 ◼   ► and can I tell if it's an iPhone or not?

00:28:53 ◼   ► And it's absolutely staggering if you just watch people.

00:28:57 ◼   ► I was on hold for like half an hour,

00:28:58 ◼   ► and I didn't have a clicker,

00:29:00 ◼   ► so I can't mathematically say it,

00:29:02 ◼   ► but I would estimate that over half of the people

00:29:05 ◼   ► were on their phone, either looking at it and texting,

00:29:09 ◼   ► or at the very least had headphones,

00:29:10 ◼   ► which I knew were connected to a phone

00:29:13 ◼   ► and were listening to something.

00:29:14 ◼   ► And most of the people who weren't were in conversation

00:29:19 ◼   ► with a colleague or friend or something.

00:29:22 ◼   ► Almost every single person who was just solo,

00:29:25 ◼   ► either leaving the building or going to the train station

00:29:28 ◼   ► was on their phone.

00:29:30 ◼   ► It's absolutely, you know, just to commemorate

00:29:33 ◼   ► this 10 year anniversary of the iPhone,

00:29:34 ◼   ► if you just sit there and think about,

00:29:37 ◼   ► it really looks like something out of science fiction

00:29:39 ◼   ► 2006. Yeah, there's a… I mean, I've seen that happen. I mean, the thing that I watch is people

00:29:47 ◼   ► in cars, which drives me absolutely berserk. I mean, when I'm sitting at a stoplight and I

00:29:53 ◼   ► watch the people who are driving by on the perpendicular street, I watch and see how many

00:29:59 ◼   ► of them are looking at their phones. It's an insane amount of people. That really drives me.

00:30:04 ◼   ► Not to tell. It drives me absolutely berserk. And I really do try to be religious about it while

00:30:08 ◼   ► while I'm driving.

00:30:09 ◼   ► And I make jokes on this show about being a terrible driver

00:30:13 ◼   ► and driving too fast.

00:30:13 ◼   ► And I do like to drive fast.

00:30:15 ◼   ► But no jokes aside, I really, really, really

00:30:18 ◼   ► do not use the phone, especially in the city.

00:30:19 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:30:20 ◼   ► I don't even like using my watch that much.

00:30:22 ◼   ► I mean, I'll often talk to Siri on the watch.

00:30:25 ◼   ► But I mean, I don't even like looking at my text message

00:30:30 ◼   ► or anything like that, because I'm not

00:30:32 ◼   ► watching the freaking road.

00:30:33 ◼   ► No, I don't know.

00:30:34 ◼   ► I don't understand.

00:30:36 ◼   ► I'm terrified of cars.

00:30:38 ◼   ► I really am.

00:30:38 ◼   ► I don't have a phobia because I ride in them, but I feel like I'm on the spectrum

00:30:46 ◼   ► of maybe being afraid to get in a car.

00:30:50 ◼   ► But the problem isn't even so much that I want to get in a car, it's that I'm

00:30:53 ◼   ► afraid of another car getting me.

00:30:55 ◼   ► That can happen as a pedestrian in the city.

00:30:58 ◼   ► But anyway.

00:30:59 ◼   ► The other thing I was going to say is that effect, I think, had already hit people who

00:31:04 ◼   ► had Blackberries before the iPhone came out.

00:31:07 ◼   ► And a lot of those people, I mean, most of those people were like doing,

00:31:09 ◼   ► we're business people doing business, um, texting or, you know, or whatever,

00:31:13 ◼   ► whoever they were texting, you know,

00:31:15 ◼   ► like maybe they're just joking around with like their work friends or something

00:31:17 ◼   ► like that. They were texting back and forth, um, constantly. Um,

00:31:20 ◼   ► I remember when I, cause I used to work in an office,

00:31:22 ◼   ► I remember going into the men's room and there was a guy there with his

00:31:26 ◼   ► Blackberry in his hand, standing at the urinal,

00:31:29 ◼   ► two handed typing on the black bar. Oh man.

00:31:35 ◼   ► Yeah, right, maybe.

00:31:37 ◼   ► And especially in the sort of white collar office building

00:31:42 ◼   ► where I was, there might have been that effect

00:31:43 ◼   ► even before the iPhone.

00:31:45 ◼   ► But--

00:31:45 ◼   ► Yeah, maybe.

00:31:46 ◼   ► So it's not-- and I bet a lot of--

00:31:48 ◼   ► Probably not to this degree that it is now.

00:31:50 ◼   ► And I'll bet a lot of the headphone wearers

00:31:51 ◼   ► would have had iPods.

00:31:54 ◼   ► So the larger trend is computing devices,

00:31:57 ◼   ► little pocket-sized computing devices in general.

00:31:59 ◼   ► But as of 2017, they're all phones.

00:32:02 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:32:04 ◼   ► And they're all roughly similar phones.

00:32:06 ◼   ► They're all rectangles with glass faces

00:32:11 ◼   ► that have an interface that takes up the whole thing.

00:32:14 ◼   ► And I felt like Forstall's interview in particular

00:32:17 ◼   ► really captured that.

00:32:19 ◼   ► The other guys, too, but they were asked details

00:32:21 ◼   ► that were questions that were a little bit more

00:32:24 ◼   ► specific to anecdotes.

00:32:25 ◼   ► And Forstall's was more bigger picture.

00:32:28 ◼   ► And it does--

00:32:29 ◼   ► One of the things that he said that stuck out to me

00:32:31 ◼   ► never felt like work to use the iPhone. Because he was talking about how, you know, he would just,

00:32:37 ◼   ► I mean, like, and I, you know, felt that when I, when I got it, I mean, I think that I always think

00:32:42 ◼   ► back and think that was this is like the one thing like, if I could go back in time and show like,

00:32:45 ◼   ► 13 year old me, something from the future, like an iPhone would be probably my first,

00:32:51 ◼   ► would that without a question, my first choice? Yeah, I've used the analogy of feeling like

00:32:57 ◼   ► like you're going uphill versus downhill.

00:33:00 ◼   ► And I like the metaphor, but it's hard

00:33:05 ◼   ► because uphill is bad and downhill is good in my metaphor.

00:33:11 ◼   ► But also saying something's going downhill

00:33:15 ◼   ► generally is a bad connotation.

00:33:17 ◼   ► But what I just mean is it feel like you're fighting gravity

00:33:20 ◼   ► or is gravity helping you?

00:33:21 ◼   ► Like when you're riding a bike

00:33:22 ◼   ► and it's just a gentle downhill,

00:33:25 ◼   ► like a five degree downhill thing,

00:33:26 ◼   ► It feels like the easiest thing in the goddamn world.

00:33:29 ◼   ► And riding your bike up a hill can somehow feel like,

00:33:31 ◼   ► why do I own a bicycle?

00:33:33 ◼   ► - Someday I'll tell you the story about my brothers

00:33:35 ◼   ► trying to teach me to ride a bike.

00:33:36 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:33:38 ◼   ► It's actually, it's pretty quick.

00:33:39 ◼   ► They pushed me down a hill.

00:33:40 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:33:42 ◼   ► So still not appropriate to certain audiences.

00:33:47 ◼   ► - And that's exactly what Forrestal was getting at.

00:33:52 ◼   ► And I think, you know, maybe it feels like work

00:33:53 ◼   ► is actually a better way to put it.

00:33:55 ◼   ► you know, that it just felt like checking your email didn't feel like you're doing a thing.

00:33:58 ◼   ► There's a few things that still feel like work to me on an iPhone.

00:34:01 ◼   ► Like if I have to change something on the server during Fireball,

00:34:07 ◼   ► like and that happens almost, I mean, number one, my site doesn't change very often.

00:34:11 ◼   ► So it's that's pretty rare.

00:34:13 ◼   ► But if just to say there's like a text like to edit the schedule for sponsorships is I don't have like a CMS for that.

00:34:21 ◼   ► it's a text file on the server.

00:34:23 ◼   ► And if I have like a typo in it or something like that,

00:34:26 ◼   ► and I'm on the phone, that feels like work.

00:34:28 ◼   ► 'Cause it's like, and I use the same app.

00:34:31 ◼   ► I use just, you know, the apps from Panic.

00:34:35 ◼   ► I guess on the phone I would use Coda

00:34:38 ◼   ► and I'd open up the server and tap, tap into the folders

00:34:41 ◼   ► and open it up.

00:34:43 ◼   ► And it just feels like work though,

00:34:44 ◼   ► even though it's a very nice app

00:34:45 ◼   ► and I can't imagine how it would be better

00:34:47 ◼   ► on a four inch display.

00:34:48 ◼   ► - It's just the screen size, right?

00:34:50 ◼   ► It's the screen size combined with the fact that on my Mac it's just like,

00:34:55 ◼   ► you know, command space, TRA return, double click,

00:34:59 ◼   ► I'm in and it just is easier to drill down a file system and stuff like that.

00:35:04 ◼   ► But it, you know, for the most part,

00:35:09 ◼   ► but something like checking to see an email message or something like that,

00:35:12 ◼   ► doesn't feel like work on the iPhone at all.

00:35:13 ◼   ► You know, I mean, you know me, I, I tend to, uh,

00:35:18 ◼   ► obsess over people who write lousy Apple analysis.

00:35:22 ◼   ► And so I go to all these like really crappy sites a lot.

00:35:27 ◼   ► I mean, so I happen, you know,

00:35:28 ◼   ► and I go to your site obviously too,

00:35:30 ◼   ► but like I noticed today that I loaded,

00:35:33 ◼   ► your site was already loaded in a tab.

00:35:36 ◼   ► And so I hit refresh to make sure I was getting the latest.

00:35:39 ◼   ► And then, and I, maybe I looked away for a second,

00:35:42 ◼   ► but I came back and I looked,

00:35:43 ◼   ► and it was just sitting there.

00:35:44 ◼   ► And so I hit refresh again,

00:35:45 ◼   ► 'cause I thought there's no way it refreshed

00:35:47 ◼   ► in that amount of time,

00:35:48 ◼   ► because I'm just used to these things like Forbes and stuff

00:35:51 ◼   ► where it's like, oh, you wanna hit refresh?

00:35:53 ◼   ► Well, it's gonna take like five minutes to load this page.

00:35:56 ◼   ► - My site is pretty fast.

00:35:59 ◼   ► - It is very fast.

00:36:00 ◼   ► - I noticed the same thing the other day.

00:36:03 ◼   ► I went on a rant on Daring Fireball

00:36:05 ◼   ► about the stupid JavaScript dick bars

00:36:10 ◼   ► that they put up over the sites.

00:36:15 ◼   ► And I just wrote offhand, you know,

00:36:17 ◼   ► - Not really offhandedly, but I do kind of mean it.

00:36:20 ◼   ► I think that we'd have been better off

00:36:21 ◼   ► if they'd never added JavaScript to web browsers.

00:36:24 ◼   ► I mean, if you remember, the original,

00:36:26 ◼   ► it was a document type thing.

00:36:28 ◼   ► You know, and in the same way that like,

00:36:30 ◼   ► when I send you an email,

00:36:31 ◼   ► code doesn't run on your device.

00:36:35 ◼   ► I'm sending you bits and they are displayed.

00:36:38 ◼   ► And the web was just like any other internet thing

00:36:41 ◼   ► at the time where you'd send text to somebody

00:36:44 ◼   ► or you'd get text from a server

00:36:46 ◼   ► and it would be displayed somehow.

00:36:48 ◼   ► The idea of adding scripting on the client side

00:36:53 ◼   ► struck me as a bad idea immediately.

00:36:55 ◼   ► And yes, it enabled all sorts of amazing things,

00:36:58 ◼   ► and there's all sorts of web apps

00:37:00 ◼   ► and things that are done in JavaScript

00:37:02 ◼   ► that are useful and beautiful and cool,

00:37:05 ◼   ► but there's so many awful things that people do with it.

00:37:08 ◼   ► And you're just opening the door

00:37:10 ◼   ► to the possibility of bad things happening,

00:37:13 ◼   ► whereas if there's no executable scripting at all,

00:37:15 ◼   ► then nothing can happen.

00:37:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think you actually weren't talking

00:37:18 ◼   ► about JavaScript.

00:37:19 ◼   ► I think you were talking about the other thing

00:37:20 ◼   ► that's scraping the--

00:37:22 ◼   ► - Oh, what was that?

00:37:24 ◼   ► - The names and like if you type something in,

00:37:26 ◼   ► even if you don't hit submit,

00:37:27 ◼   ► it's scraping your information. - Oh my God,

00:37:28 ◼   ► how awful is that?

00:37:29 ◼   ► Oh, how awful is that? - Unbelievable.

00:37:31 ◼   ► - So if you didn't see it on Daring Fireball,

00:37:33 ◼   ► there's Gizmodo had an expose where they found

00:37:36 ◼   ► like hundreds of companies using this company's service.

00:37:39 ◼   ► The scumbag company has--

00:37:41 ◼   ► - NaviStone.

00:37:42 ◼   ► - NaviStone, gee how many Christmas.

00:37:44 ◼   ► they've got this JavaScript that you go to a form

00:37:47 ◼   ► and as soon as you type anything in a field,

00:37:50 ◼   ► it like phones home with the data.

00:37:52 ◼   ► So like if you've ever idly like,

00:37:55 ◼   ► maybe I'll buy this, maybe I won't,

00:37:56 ◼   ► or maybe I'll sign up for this thing,

00:37:58 ◼   ► but you kinda, you put your email in,

00:38:00 ◼   ► but you don't hit submit.

00:38:01 ◼   ► And there's a big button that says submit

00:38:03 ◼   ► and you think like, well,

00:38:04 ◼   ► my email won't be sent to them until I hit submit.

00:38:07 ◼   ► Nope.

00:38:08 ◼   ► Soon as you type the letter J, there it is.

00:38:12 ◼   ► And people do, and I've got an email from readers too,

00:38:15 ◼   ► and they've said that they've had this happen

00:38:17 ◼   ► where they were like at a very specific site,

00:38:18 ◼   ► like somebody was at like a site that sells like,

00:38:22 ◼   ► I don't know, Japanese tea, something very specific,

00:38:24 ◼   ► and did that, entered some information in a form,

00:38:27 ◼   ► and then thought the better, thought,

00:38:29 ◼   ► you know what, I don't wanna get this.

00:38:30 ◼   ► And three days later, they got mail to their house,

00:38:33 ◼   ► like actual junk mail from the Japanese tea company.

00:38:37 ◼   ► - Yeah, and that's the thing,

00:38:38 ◼   ► that they claim to be able to take that information

00:38:40 ◼   ► and just like find your address, like find where you're living.

00:38:43 ◼   ► And I guess just from the email.

00:38:46 ◼   ► Yeah, some database of looking up email addresses

00:38:50 ◼   ► and associating with mailing addresses.

00:38:52 ◼   ► So anyway, yeah, I mean, and that's

00:38:54 ◼   ► a better example of why there should not be JavaScript,

00:38:57 ◼   ► or why you might not want JavaScript executing just

00:39:01 ◼   ► by loading a page, right?

00:39:02 ◼   ► If there's no scripting, all you're getting is a display,

00:39:05 ◼   ► some information display, text and video or images

00:39:09 ◼   ► or something like that.

00:39:10 ◼   ► and then nothing goes back to them until you click something.

00:39:14 ◼   ► Anyway, what I did is I thought, you know what?

00:39:18 ◼   ► I haven't tried for a while.

00:39:19 ◼   ► And I have one blocker.

00:39:21 ◼   ► I have a content blocker.

00:39:22 ◼   ► And I have some ads blocked and trackers blocked

00:39:28 ◼   ► and stuff like that.

00:39:28 ◼   ► And it does seem to speed things up.

00:39:30 ◼   ► But I thought, you know what?

00:39:31 ◼   ► I haven't tried in a long time is

00:39:32 ◼   ► what happens if you just turned JavaScript off?

00:39:34 ◼   ► Because that's a preference in Safari.

00:39:36 ◼   ► You can just say, I don't want any JavaScript at all.

00:39:39 ◼   ► And I did that.

00:39:40 ◼   ► And I had the same experience with,

00:39:42 ◼   ► it was still Gizmodo's site.

00:39:43 ◼   ► It loaded so fast that I thought--

00:39:46 ◼   ► - That's gotta be wrong.

00:39:47 ◼   ► - And I was like, oh my God,

00:39:48 ◼   ► their site is so instantaneously fast.

00:39:50 ◼   ► When you turn off JavaScript,

00:39:51 ◼   ► it's all JavaScript that makes it take six seconds

00:39:54 ◼   ► to load Gizmodo.

00:39:56 ◼   ► It's absolutely crazy that people

00:39:59 ◼   ► just recklessly add all that.

00:40:00 ◼   ► Every site in the internet could be fast

00:40:02 ◼   ► by today's standards,

00:40:03 ◼   ► if they didn't have all that crap.

00:40:08 ◼   ► yet here we are.

00:40:09 ◼   ► - Doing a lot of complaining

00:40:11 ◼   ► about the way things are right now.

00:40:12 ◼   ► - My very favorite story that Forstall told,

00:40:15 ◼   ► and I don't mind stealing it

00:40:16 ◼   ► because it's so goddamn funny,

00:40:18 ◼   ► is that he said every time he went to Cafe Max

00:40:21 ◼   ► with Steve Jobs, Jobs would insist on paying.

00:40:25 ◼   ► Even if Forstall was getting something

00:40:27 ◼   ► that took a long time,

00:40:29 ◼   ► like he's waiting for a pizza to get baked

00:40:31 ◼   ► and Steve's already got his salad or whatever he had,

00:40:34 ◼   ► and he's like, "Just go, you don't have to wait for me, go."

00:40:36 ◼   ► And every time, jobs would wait at the cashier,

00:40:39 ◼   ► and that they had a system.

00:40:40 ◼   ► I guess they still have the system,

00:40:43 ◼   ► but you just use your employee badge,

00:40:46 ◼   ► and it just docks the food from your paycheck.

00:40:49 ◼   ► I don't know if people know this or not,

00:40:50 ◼   ► 'cause so many places in the Valley offer free food

00:40:52 ◼   ► to their employees, but Apple does not offer free food.

00:40:55 ◼   ► It's like, how do you get $200 billion in the bank?

00:40:59 ◼   ► Well, you don't give them free food.

00:41:01 ◼   ► You charge, yeah, right, right.

00:41:03 ◼   ► But eventually, he said, "Steve, you gotta stop doing this.

00:41:05 ◼   ► I can pay for my own food.

00:41:06 ◼   ► And he goes, "No, you don't understand.

00:41:08 ◼   ► This gets docked out of your paycheck."

00:41:10 ◼   ► Well, I only get paid a dollar a year.

00:41:13 ◼   ► I don't know where this money's coming from.

00:41:18 ◼   ► And Horstal starts laughing.

00:41:19 ◼   ► He says he's a billionaire and he's scamming the company.

00:41:24 ◼   ► And he said, "Job says multi-billionaire."

00:41:26 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:41:27 ◼   ► That was it.

00:41:29 ◼   ► I think that was a different anecdote.

00:41:31 ◼   ► That was the thing where he's telling people that you're pricing.

00:41:34 ◼   ► telling Jobs you're pricing this too high. Right. Like people like you know I have friends who can't

00:41:37 ◼   ► afford this thing and he's like you you you you think it's funny because you're a billionaire and

00:41:42 ◼   ► he says I'm a multi-billionaire. Yeah I just completed two stories anyway the whole thing

00:41:47 ◼   ► was chock full of good stories I thought John Markoff did a pretty good job hosting it keeping

00:41:53 ◼   ► it going boy I felt like that could have gone on forever like I would like to see Forstall for three

00:41:57 ◼   ► hours. It was really good. It was very good. I felt like I found the first three guys a little

00:42:06 ◼   ► more, I don't know if it was relaxed or what it was. He felt like, I mean, he mentioned that he

00:42:10 ◼   ► happened to mention that he was like, he was really into acting because you've talked about

00:42:14 ◼   ► all these experiences that he's had since leaving Apple and on Broadway. And he seemed like he was

00:42:20 ◼   ► acting a little. Yeah. The other guys just seemed more natural, like they were just shooting the

00:42:25 ◼   ► breeze. But the stories were still great and it's certainly worth two hours or a good time

00:42:33 ◼   ► to watch the whole thing, I think.

00:42:34 ◼   ► Yeah. It was actually asked, I guess there were questions from the audience, which were

00:42:40 ◼   ► done the right way, by the way. The right way to do questions from the audience or from

00:42:45 ◼   ► the internet is to have them written on cards and given to...

00:42:49 ◼   ► Instead of people standing up.

00:42:51 ◼   ► - Right, never ever ever do it with people standing up

00:42:54 ◼   ► because somebody will inevitably,

00:42:57 ◼   ► like it's like flies drawn to a light bulb.

00:43:00 ◼   ► People who can't get a good question out of their mouth

00:43:05 ◼   ► but just keep running will immediately go to the microphone.

00:43:09 ◼   ► But one of the questions from the audience was

00:43:12 ◼   ► asking if Forrestal was wearing the same shirt

00:43:17 ◼   ► that he wore at the 2012 WWDC

00:43:19 ◼   ► somebody looked it up and posted it to Twitter it was it is the same shirt we

00:43:25 ◼   ► go with what works right boy it did seem first it did not seem like Scott

00:43:30 ◼   ► Forstall's been gone for five years hey he looks great you know he doesn't look

00:43:34 ◼   ► like he's a he looks exactly the eye looks exactly it looks like he's been

00:43:36 ◼   ► like an a cryogenic chamber I don't know about you and part of it is is going

00:43:43 ◼   ► gray over the last few years but man I mean that's like I look back at pictures

00:43:47 ◼   ► from five years ago and I think holy hell I'm really going to hell like oh

00:43:53 ◼   ► yeah this is getting old yeah you know somebody I have a picture but there's a

00:43:58 ◼   ► picture we've got two babies in the family at the moment and I like to hold

00:44:04 ◼   ► babies I do I really do I love babies and I like it when when the family get

00:44:10 ◼   ► together if there's two babies at the same time I like to hold two babies at

00:44:13 ◼   ► same. I do. So Amy took a picture of me with two babies a couple of weekends ago at a family

00:44:19 ◼   ► birthday event and I love the picture because I look unlike almost all the time. I am in fact

00:44:28 ◼   ► genuinely happy at that moment and you can see it but I was like, "Oh my god, look at all those

00:44:32 ◼   ► lines around my eyes. Jesus." I don't know what he's doing but... I don't like holding babies.

00:44:38 ◼   ► Oh, I love holding babies. I never liked holding babies. And I was like, when we decided to adopt,

00:44:43 ◼   ► I was like, good. Cause then, you know, like he's going to be one. I won't have to carry this tight.

00:44:48 ◼   ► We have this, we have these friends. Oh my God. They had, they had a, they had a kid like a number

00:44:53 ◼   ► of years before we adopted Hank and this guy would flip the baby in the air. Yeah. That's what I do.

00:44:59 ◼   ► Well, I don't do that with other babies, but I did it with Jonas. Oh my God. Yeah. Oh my God. I

00:45:04 ◼   ► I would just I would it freaked me out. I had to leave

00:45:07 ◼   ► I mean, I just like I would just like go into another room. I could not bear it. Oh

00:45:11 ◼   ► I like throwing you were gonna drop this kid

00:45:14 ◼   ► I am NOT gonna be standing here when this kid suffers brain damage

00:45:19 ◼   ► Guess I do like throwing a baby in the air

00:45:24 ◼   ► But I must admit that they're probably as sure-handed as I feel I am

00:45:28 ◼   ► I'm I guess the odds of me dropping a baby do increase slightly versus not throwing yet in there

00:45:33 ◼   ► Yeah, I think you should. I think you and also you're getting older. So you should not be

00:45:39 ◼   ► throwing babies anymore. Eyesight isn't what it used to be there. Your depth perception.

00:45:45 ◼   ► Unless you're standing over a ball pit. Yeah. Or yeah, something like that.

00:45:53 ◼   ► But pool maybe. Yeah. I thought it was uncanny how it seemed like for stall had only hadn't even left

00:46:02 ◼   ► like both the fact that he was wearing the same shirt that doesn't look that aged and it just

00:46:08 ◼   ► felt you know it's been five years since we've heard him on stage at an event and it did not

00:46:13 ◼   ► feel like five years ago it felt like you know like he was just at WWDC last week.

00:46:18 ◼   ► It's and the other thing that was interesting about that whole thing was how many apparently

00:46:23 ◼   ► how many other executives or former executives or whatever were just people who worked on the

00:46:28 ◼   ► the phone were in the audience. And they kept pointing, like they all kept pointing people

00:46:33 ◼   ► out. And so I think that helped make it sort of relaxed.

00:46:38 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah, I think so too. I think I know for a fact, Matthew Panzorino was there and

00:46:46 ◼   ► he told me he saw Bertrand Cerlet was in the audience. No surprise. I know he, you know,

00:46:54 ◼   ► He's been rather quiet since leaving Apple as well.

00:46:57 ◼   ► I just, Apple people, you know,

00:47:02 ◼   ► like how do you fit in at a company

00:47:05 ◼   ► where employees are expected to keep their mouth shut

00:47:07 ◼   ► is you're naturally the sort of person

00:47:08 ◼   ► who keeps your mouth shut.

00:47:10 ◼   ► So it's not a surprise that you haven't heard

00:47:11 ◼   ► from a lot of these people.

00:47:12 ◼   ► But I feel like Bertrand's role in the iPhone is sort of,

00:47:15 ◼   ► and again, I haven't read the book.

00:47:18 ◼   ► So maybe in that, the new book,

00:47:20 ◼   ► maybe there's a big chunk about Bertrand,

00:47:22 ◼   ► but at an engineering level,

00:47:26 ◼   ► from what I've heard from multiple people,

00:47:29 ◼   ► like at that point where there was this,

00:47:31 ◼   ► well, do we base it off a stripped down version

00:47:34 ◼   ► of Mac OS X and the next libraries and everything,

00:47:39 ◼   ► or do we build a thing from the ground up on Linux,

00:47:42 ◼   ► like more like a gadget,

00:47:44 ◼   ► which was the Tony Fadell side of the thing.

00:47:46 ◼   ► And Forstall obviously, famously led the,

00:47:52 ◼   ► what would become iOS, you know, led that team, but that at a actually like running

00:47:58 ◼   ► the engineering and stuff like that Bertrand was a huge part of that as well.

00:48:01 ◼   ► And and was a big supporter of the fight in terms of yes, I know it seems hard to believe

00:48:06 ◼   ► now that this OS that doesn't really boot that fast on Intel PC hardware will be able

00:48:15 ◼   ► to boot in a reasonable amount of time on a friggin cell phone.

00:48:20 ◼   ► Yeah, that was an interesting story. They talked about how they went down and processors,

00:48:26 ◼   ► they just kept like they started on a G5 and they got it to work and then they go down to G4 tower

00:48:30 ◼   ► and then he said eventually they were like down on a like a tangerine iMac or iBook.

00:48:36 ◼   ► Right, right, like they found one in a closet and just kept trying to make it run fast on

00:48:41 ◼   ► crappier and crappier hardware. I wondered about that because like one of the images that came out

00:48:47 ◼   ► like could they all these images come out because of the um the legal stuff but one of the images

00:48:51 ◼   ► that came out was when i think when they were early on working on the um just uh just the

00:48:57 ◼   ► tablet project before it became the phone project and there was like it was like a g3 tower it was

00:49:01 ◼   ► like a like a blue and white g3 tower in the room if i remember correctly and i was like why

00:49:07 ◼   ► i mean like why would you be using that in 2003 or 4 even i just guess that explains it

00:49:16 ◼   ► It's one of those things though that in 10 years it's hard to overstate just how underpowered

00:49:28 ◼   ► the ARM processor was in that original iPhone.

00:49:32 ◼   ► I mean they show the hockey puck graph, you know the hockey stick graph of GPU performance

00:49:38 ◼   ► over time.

00:49:39 ◼   ► They show it every year when they come out with new iPads and iPhones because the graph

00:49:43 ◼   ► is still looking, it's still going up at a very sharp peak. But it's like, you have to remember,

00:49:49 ◼   ► we were back there at the origin of that graph, and we loved it, right? We absolutely loved that

00:49:55 ◼   ► bone. And that was with, you know, computing performance, that was the butt end of a joke

00:50:00 ◼   ► in their slides today. You know, and, and on the other hand, you've got all these benchmarks

00:50:05 ◼   ► showing that the new iPad Pro is significantly faster and just about any benchmark you can

00:50:11 ◼   ► can imagine than the MacBook with the Intel processor.

00:50:15 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:50:16 ◼   ► - But that was a huge problem back then, obviously.

00:50:18 ◼   ► I mean, it was probably these, of all problems,

00:50:20 ◼   ► it was probably the single biggest one.

00:50:22 ◼   ► You got the sense from them that it was just like,

00:50:26 ◼   ► it seemed like an impossible task to put.

00:50:28 ◼   ► And that's why the announcement was so amazing,

00:50:31 ◼   ► 'cause it just seemed like, well, there's no way

00:50:32 ◼   ► that they could make Mac OS X run on a phone, right?

00:50:36 ◼   ► - Yeah. - But he was like,

00:50:36 ◼   ► "Right, right?"

00:50:38 ◼   ► And we're like, "It looks like they did it."

00:50:40 ◼   ► And it's a very unexpected, I mean, not in a way that you, that I thought of certainly

00:50:49 ◼   ► before it was announced.

00:50:51 ◼   ► No.

00:50:53 ◼   ► It sounds like in a book, it's, again, I only read the Verge excerpt, but you mean in terms

00:50:58 ◼   ► of like coming up with a user interface for it?

00:51:00 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:51:01 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:51:02 ◼   ► It sounds like the book really has some great tidbits from those guys that participated.

00:51:09 ◼   ► Greg Christie was the leader of what was then

00:51:11 ◼   ► Apple's human interface group.

00:51:12 ◼   ► And Boz, Orting, I forget the other names,

00:51:17 ◼   ► they all have cool names, like super cool names.

00:51:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah.

00:51:20 ◼   ► - But it was a really small team.

00:51:24 ◼   ► Like that's one thing that I think is different

00:51:26 ◼   ► about Apple then versus Apple today.

00:51:29 ◼   ► Whereas I feel like that there is no,

00:51:31 ◼   ► like it was like a dirty dozen group,

00:51:34 ◼   ► you know what I mean?

00:51:35 ◼   ► It was like Greg Christie and his like 12 handpicked UI guys

00:51:37 ◼   ► who did the whole UI for the original iPhone.

00:51:39 ◼   ► And I don't think there isn't really a team like that anymore

00:51:42 ◼   ► ever since when Johnny Ive took over.

00:51:44 ◼   ► I mean, it really does coincide with Forstahl's Ouster,

00:51:48 ◼   ► but to have one design group under Johnny Ive

00:51:51 ◼   ► that does all design, industrial design, software design,

00:51:54 ◼   ► there is no more like one 10-person team

00:51:57 ◼   ► who could do something like that.

00:51:58 ◼   ► Anything else from that event that stuck out?

00:52:02 ◼   ► I guess it's worth observing that they didn't,

00:52:06 ◼   ► And I'm guessing by gentlemen's agreement that they didn't talk about for stalls

00:52:10 ◼   ► ouster, that it really was focused.

00:52:12 ◼   ► I think. Yeah. And historically, you know, because I

00:52:16 ◼   ► I would I hope to hear that.

00:52:19 ◼   ► I would love to you know, I love to personally be the person to to talk to

00:52:22 ◼   ► forestall about that.

00:52:24 ◼   ► I don't think that's the sort of thing, though, that plays well

00:52:27 ◼   ► in front of a live audience like that.

00:52:29 ◼   ► It would be a fantastic interview, but I think it should either be like

00:52:33 ◼   ► if it were recorded, it would should be like a non-live podcast.

00:52:37 ◼   ► That would be fantastic. Or do it for, you know, record it,

00:52:40 ◼   ► but do it for a written article. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we've seen, we've seen,

00:52:44 ◼   ► we've seen where some of the, um, the stuff that's in this book ends up, uh,

00:52:50 ◼   ► getting people in trouble. Uh, yeah, definitely. I have to, you know,

00:52:54 ◼   ► just to go meta for a second, like that does,

00:52:56 ◼   ► it absolutely colors my questioning of, uh,

00:53:00 ◼   ► like Schiller and Federighi two weeks ago at the live talk show is it's it like I guess the one

00:53:06 ◼   ► question that there was even I did you listen to it there was a heckler. It was like I don't know

00:53:14 ◼   ► two-thirds through the show some shithead up in the balcony yells when is Siri gonna get good?

00:53:19 ◼   ► I didn't I couldn't hear what the hell he said I heard him say something something Siri and it and

00:53:26 ◼   ► And I thought, boy, I really hope because that's just two strikes and you're out is my rule for like a heckler.

00:53:32 ◼   ► So I'll ignore it once. Yeah.

00:53:34 ◼   ► And if it was if he had done it again, then I would have had to interrupt the show and ask ask people surrounding him to show him the exit.

00:53:42 ◼   ► Well, make them uncomfortable. I would have said nobody's here to listen to you.

00:53:47 ◼   ► That was the great I've I've filed it away in my memory where I was at a Louis C.K. show.

00:53:52 ◼   ► Either I was at a Louis C.K. show or I was watching one on TV,

00:53:55 ◼   ► recorded and he got heckled and all he did was just stop his act,

00:53:58 ◼   ► wait about two seconds.

00:54:01 ◼   ► And he just said, nobody's here to listen to you, shithead.

00:54:03 ◼   ► And it's like I was like, that is the greatest anti heckler thing ever.

00:54:09 ◼   ► Like you don't even have to be clever.

00:54:10 ◼   ► It doesn't matter what they heckled you with it because it's you don't you know,

00:54:14 ◼   ► you don't have to prove that you're clever enough to be funny

00:54:17 ◼   ► and shutting him down on the fly by responding to whatever it is that he said.

00:54:22 ◼   ► You just say something that is absolutely true and works.

00:54:26 ◼   ► But anyway, right.

00:54:28 ◼   ► But there were people who said, well, then why didn't you drill them about Siri?

00:54:31 ◼   ► And I kind of did like I tried to get at it with my question to them about,

00:54:36 ◼   ► you know, most people in the industry seem to think that, you know,

00:54:40 ◼   ► everybody agrees machine learning is is the big thing for the next decade.

00:54:44 ◼   ► And it's going to affect things large and small.

00:54:47 ◼   ► New areas of technology, existing areas getting better.

00:54:51 ◼   ► But the consensus seems to be that machine learning is best done in the cloud,

00:54:57 ◼   ► perhaps at the expense of personal privacy, and Apple seems as committed as ever

00:55:02 ◼   ► to doing it in a distributed fashion on devices. How confident are you guys in that strategy?

00:55:08 ◼   ► And they both instantly said, "Very." And that gets at it, because obviously part of that is Siri.

00:55:15 ◼   ► So what am I going to say? They're obviously confident in it.

00:55:17 ◼   ► and if I get up there and rant about how bad Siri is,

00:55:21 ◼   ► A, I don't believe that that's true.

00:55:23 ◼   ► I'm actually, among people who write and talk

00:55:26 ◼   ► about these things, I think I'm a little more pro-Siri

00:55:28 ◼   ► versus the competition than most people,

00:55:30 ◼   ► so it's not even my honest opinion,

00:55:32 ◼   ► but even if for the sake of devil's advocate,

00:55:34 ◼   ► I just don't think it's a great question in a live audience

00:55:37 ◼   ► because they're not going to say anything.

00:55:39 ◼   ► There's a certain contingent of people

00:55:42 ◼   ► who want me to belittle them

00:55:43 ◼   ► because they're so upset about Siri's performance

00:55:46 ◼   ► that they want me to make Phil Schiller and Craig Federighi look small.

00:55:51 ◼   ► - Apologize. - Right, apologize or something.

00:55:53 ◼   ► And that's not going to happen. And it wouldn't play well on stage.

00:55:56 ◼   ► But when I've had them on the show and it's not in front of a live audience,

00:56:01 ◼   ► I feel like I ask a very different— it's a different interview style.

00:56:05 ◼   ► Like, you have to play to the audience.

00:56:06 ◼   ► - Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's— yeah, right.

00:56:09 ◼   ► I mean, in a way, it's an entertainment thing.

00:56:11 ◼   ► It becomes more of an entertainment thing when it's in front of an audience.

00:56:14 ◼   ► right and I feel like and you know and everyone's drinking and it's like you know

00:56:18 ◼   ► it really is as somebody who gets up on stage in front of several hundred or a thousand people

00:56:28 ◼   ► once in a while but has done it you know once in a while for going on 10 years it's it's like I'm not

00:56:35 ◼   ► it's not like normal to me it always always feels extremely abnormal I would say for

00:56:43 ◼   ► up to 48 hours in advance and up to 24 hours afterwards.

00:56:49 ◼   ► But it's a lot easier to think that-- when you're up there

00:56:54 ◼   ► and there's people, you cannot not be cognizant of the fact

00:56:58 ◼   ► that you've got an audience to entertain.

00:57:01 ◼   ► And it's weird because, I don't know, 100,000 people

00:57:05 ◼   ► watched the video afterwards.

00:57:07 ◼   ► And there's 1,000 people who were in that theater.

00:57:10 ◼   ► And so in theory, it would make more sense to play to optimize for the home audience.

00:57:18 ◼   ► But you can't.

00:57:19 ◼   ► You can't not do it.

00:57:20 ◼   ► And it's the same reason I think…

00:57:21 ◼   ► Because you'd ruin the whole thing if you tried to do that.

00:57:25 ◼   ► Right.

00:57:26 ◼   ► And it's exactly why the Tonight Show or the Late Night Talk Show has a different vibe

00:57:34 ◼   ► to it than the evening news.

00:57:36 ◼   ► Right?

00:57:37 ◼   ► Like when they're when that, you know, or why the Daily Show had a different vibe than

00:57:42 ◼   ► than the CBS Evening News, even though it was the same thing, a guy reading the news

00:57:46 ◼   ► on camera because there was an audience there.

00:57:50 ◼   ► Totally changes it anyway.

00:57:53 ◼   ► Good thing I'm keeping the show moving.

00:57:55 ◼   ► Take a break and thank our next sponsor.

00:58:00 ◼   ► And boy, do I love these guys.

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00:58:13 ◼   ► They've got four, no, nine colors and four sizes.

00:58:16 ◼   ► They've got the carry-on, the bigger carry-on, the medium and the large.

00:58:21 ◼   ► I love the names even because the names tell you exactly how big these suitcases are.

00:58:25 ◼   ► They're all made with premium, gerb and polycarbonate and it's really strong.

00:58:30 ◼   ► got the four wheel rollers which is fantastic and it's like the rollers are so easy you

00:58:35 ◼   ► just put this thing on the four rollers and you just like touch it with one finger and

00:58:38 ◼   ► it just rolls down the airport with you.

00:58:40 ◼   ► A TSA approved combination lock, I don't know how good that is, those locks, you know, but

00:58:45 ◼   ► it's the best you can do that's legal.

00:58:48 ◼   ► And the thing about the carry-on that is so clever is it has a built-in battery charger

00:58:56 ◼   ► and a couple of USB ports up there.

00:58:58 ◼   ► So when you're at the airport and you're waiting,

00:59:00 ◼   ► you don't have to hunt for the one seat

00:59:03 ◼   ► that's near a power outlet.

00:59:05 ◼   ► You can just sit anywhere and you could charge your phone

00:59:09 ◼   ► or charge two phones at the same time.

00:59:11 ◼   ► And the battery, because it's small for the suitcase,

00:59:14 ◼   ► but it's actually bigger than the type of charger

00:59:16 ◼   ► you'd put in a, like you carry in your pocket

00:59:18 ◼   ► or something like that.

00:59:19 ◼   ► It's big enough that they could charge a,

00:59:20 ◼   ► fully charge an iPhone five times on a single charge.

00:59:23 ◼   ► It's a great feature.

00:59:25 ◼   ► I've used it, I have one of these,

00:59:27 ◼   ► and I have used that feature.

00:59:29 ◼   ► Because for whatever reason, I think

00:59:30 ◼   ► as soon as you go in an airport, your phone just instantly

00:59:32 ◼   ► loses its 20% battery.

00:59:34 ◼   ► Just instantly.

00:59:35 ◼   ► It's like just the way they build airports,

00:59:36 ◼   ► and it's like a Faraday cage.

00:59:38 ◼   ► It's like its signal is so bad.

00:59:40 ◼   ► You need to charge it.

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00:59:55 ◼   ► You can live with it, travel with it, put it through the airport check baggage and let

01:00:00 ◼   ► them toss it around.

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01:00:06 ◼   ► and you send it back and you get a full refund.

01:00:09 ◼   ► I mean, does that make any sense?

01:00:11 ◼   ► No, but that's how confident they are that you're going to like it.

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01:00:19 ◼   ► Sorry, Alaska.

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01:00:43 ◼   ► I'll be packing an Away suitcase probably within half an hour

01:00:47 ◼   ► of getting off this show today.

01:00:48 ◼   ► I really will.

01:00:52 ◼   ► That's the honest to God truth.

01:00:53 ◼   ► I wouldn't say it if it weren't true, Jon.

01:00:55 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:00:57 ◼   ► - I wasn't questioning you.

01:00:59 ◼   ► - I think I said this before.

01:01:00 ◼   ► I travel more than most people probably.

01:01:02 ◼   ► I mean, I travel for work,

01:01:05 ◼   ► travel for vacation with the family and stuff like that.

01:01:08 ◼   ► I've had, up until I got this away thing,

01:01:12 ◼   ► I had the same carry-on suitcase since I can remember.

01:01:15 ◼   ► And I had it for so long that I don't even remember

01:01:19 ◼   ► why I bought it originally because I had it

01:01:21 ◼   ► from before I regularly flew on airplanes.

01:01:24 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:01:25 ◼   ► And having an old busted ass suitcase

01:01:29 ◼   ► with like wheels that don't really turn right

01:01:31 ◼   ► and make noise, it was like the upgrade of a lifetime.

01:01:36 ◼   ► And it's just one of those things where I don't know,

01:01:37 ◼   ► I waste money on so much stuff as you well know.

01:01:40 ◼   ► But it never seemed to me like the suitcase

01:01:42 ◼   ► was still structurally sound and it wasn't ripped,

01:01:46 ◼   ► it was just worn and wheels especially.

01:01:50 ◼   ► And so it never, that never seems like something worth spending, you know,

01:01:53 ◼   ► money on. It's like, well, you know, I don't need it.

01:01:55 ◼   ► And I'll just use this old one. I'll tell you what,

01:01:58 ◼   ► getting a new suitcase was a hell of an upgrade.

01:01:59 ◼   ► I like this. I really liked the sound of that one that has the power in it.

01:02:03 ◼   ► Oh, it's a fantastic feature. It really is. Cause you never get it.

01:02:07 ◼   ► You never get power at the airport. Never. No.

01:02:09 ◼   ► There's always that one guy who's got like eight devices plugged into the two.

01:02:13 ◼   ► Yeah. Oh, that guy. Yeah. That's, that's BS. That's, that's, that's,

01:02:18 ◼   ► That's total crap.

01:02:20 ◼   ► It's just a dick move.

01:02:22 ◼   ► It really is.

01:02:23 ◼   ► It's like taking a four-top for--

01:02:24 ◼   ► you're like a one person.

01:02:26 ◼   ► You take a four-top at a seat yourself restaurant.

01:02:28 ◼   ► Oh, yeah.

01:02:30 ◼   ► Go sit at the bar if you're by yourself, you know what I mean?

01:02:33 ◼   ► All right, what else we got on the agenda?

01:02:37 ◼   ► Anything else?

01:02:38 ◼   ► Anything else from the event?

01:02:41 ◼   ► No, I mean, just another--

01:02:43 ◼   ► I don't want to give away all the anecdotes.

01:02:45 ◼   ► I don't want to.

01:02:45 ◼   ► The jobs anecdotes.

01:02:46 ◼   ► So that was the only other one.

01:02:48 ◼   ► So just watch it and you'll you'll learn all the jobs anecdotes. Yeah

01:02:51 ◼   ► It does make you wonder like what Apple looks like if for stall hadn't left was there a path, you know

01:02:58 ◼   ► Well, yeah, what exactly was the nature of that that rift and the personal dispute? I mean there's reports that

01:03:05 ◼   ► Tim Cook used to have to attend every meeting that was attended. I think it was Johnny and

01:03:12 ◼   ► For stall but it might have involved. I thought it was a big Bob. Yeah

01:03:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, there might have been multiple people

01:03:19 ◼   ► who refused to attend any meeting with Scott Forstall

01:03:23 ◼   ► unless Tim Cook was there.

01:03:25 ◼   ► And as you might imagine,

01:03:27 ◼   ► the company that was making all their money

01:03:31 ◼   ► from iPhones and iPads had a lot of meetings

01:03:34 ◼   ► with Scott Forstall.

01:03:35 ◼   ► But boy, he-- - Yeah, that's it.

01:03:39 ◼   ► You can't keep doing that.

01:03:41 ◼   ► - That there was, I mean, there's just no denying it, though,

01:03:44 ◼   ► that there's an aspect of Scott Forstall

01:03:47 ◼   ► that you can see why he was so in tune with Steve Jobs.

01:03:50 ◼   ► You can see why they had almost a symbiotic relationship,

01:03:54 ◼   ► that there is a certain steveness to his way

01:03:57 ◼   ► of looking at products and design and technology.

01:04:00 ◼   ► I thought it was interesting.

01:04:03 ◼   ► I actually knew this, I think,

01:04:04 ◼   ► but Markov asked something about skeuomorphism,

01:04:09 ◼   ► and Forstall was like,

01:04:10 ◼   ► I'd never even heard of the word skeuomorphism

01:04:12 ◼   ► until after, you know.

01:04:14 ◼   ► - People started blaming him for skeuomorphism.

01:04:18 ◼   ► - Right, it's just like, I just know good design.

01:04:20 ◼   ► And I'm sure that's true.

01:04:22 ◼   ► Skeuomorphism does sound like a word

01:04:25 ◼   ► that was made up by people who don't like what it is.

01:04:28 ◼   ► The name does seem sort of negative.

01:04:32 ◼   ► - Right.

01:04:33 ◼   ► I didn't know what it was

01:04:35 ◼   ► until that whole thing blew up either.

01:04:36 ◼   ► Did you know, I mean, is this something

01:04:37 ◼   ► that you've heard of before? - No, I'd never heard of it

01:04:39 ◼   ► before, and I was never satisfied.

01:04:41 ◼   ► I always, every time I put it on Daring Fireball,

01:04:43 ◼   ► I was always, I still am if I ever comes up again.

01:04:46 ◼   ► It just seems like a void in our vocabulary

01:04:51 ◼   ► to talk about it.

01:04:52 ◼   ► I think it's better to talk about like textures and depth,

01:04:58 ◼   ► rather than flatness.

01:05:00 ◼   ► And even the word flatness is overdone,

01:05:02 ◼   ► but there's no denying that nobody,

01:05:06 ◼   ► you can quibble over what words we use,

01:05:08 ◼   ► but you can't deny that iOS 7 was flattened

01:05:11 ◼   ► compared to iOS 6.

01:05:13 ◼   ► Things that used to look like they were 3D

01:05:15 ◼   ► were now completely 2D.

01:05:16 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:05:19 ◼   ► - Let's think about this.

01:05:23 ◼   ► How about this story that the outline had?

01:05:25 ◼   ► - On the leaks?

01:05:28 ◼   ► - Yeah, so Apple has been hosting, apparently,

01:05:31 ◼   ► a series of, unsurprisingly,

01:05:35 ◼   ► Apple has a team of investigators to investigate product leaks.

01:05:39 ◼   ► And they're people, you know,

01:05:42 ◼   ► formerly employed by like the FBI and the, I don't know,

01:05:46 ◼   ► CIA or secret service, you know, unsurprisingly.

01:05:50 ◼   ► This kid, well, this came out,

01:05:52 ◼   ► remember when the iPhone four got stolen or appropriated or whatever you want to

01:05:56 ◼   ► call it, picked up in a bar and not returned.

01:05:59 ◼   ► They, this,

01:06:03 ◼   ► I think that came out then that they had these investigators that were working

01:06:06 ◼   ► in house and people were, well, some people at least were kind of like, Whoa,

01:06:09 ◼   ► why is Apple employing these thugs?

01:06:13 ◼   ► It's like, cause they're a huge company and they're not, they're not things.

01:06:18 ◼   ► They're just like, they're looking into, you know,

01:06:21 ◼   ► making sure that other companies don't steal their intellectual property.

01:06:25 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:06:26 ◼   ► It was definitely a little bit more faux outrage in when that phone

01:06:31 ◼   ► was stolen.

01:06:32 ◼   ► at the reaction.

01:06:34 ◼   ► But it's like, if you really look at what they did,

01:06:37 ◼   ► there was no step of the way that seemed inappropriate

01:06:40 ◼   ► to me.

01:06:41 ◼   ► But there's some people who seemingly,

01:06:43 ◼   ► you know, like, seemingly think Apple shouldn't enforce

01:06:46 ◼   ► this at all in the interest of free speech

01:06:49 ◼   ► of their employees, I guess.

01:06:51 ◼   ► You know, that it's oppressive to do anything in response.

01:06:56 ◼   ► It doesn't make any sense.

01:06:57 ◼   ► I don't understand how these people think like that.

01:07:00 ◼   ► I mean, and there's a line in there,

01:07:02 ◼   ► but I forget the name of the guy who does the,

01:07:04 ◼   ► I think it's the guy, right, who does the presentation,

01:07:07 ◼   ► who they name, but he talks about how they're not talking

01:07:12 ◼   ► about whistleblowers.

01:07:14 ◼   ► - Right.

01:07:15 ◼   ► - They're, you know, if Apple is doing something

01:07:17 ◼   ► that's illegal, we want you to go ahead and tell people.

01:07:21 ◼   ► - Or, you know, or if it's like a harassment type thing,

01:07:24 ◼   ► you know, like if you feel like, you know, you've been,

01:07:27 ◼   ► you know, you're not being treated fairly

01:07:28 ◼   ► because of your skin color or your sexual orientation

01:07:32 ◼   ► or whatever and you wanna report it,

01:07:34 ◼   ► this team doesn't come after you.

01:07:36 ◼   ► This team is specifically devoted to product leaks.

01:07:38 ◼   ► It actually, and they even said like we don't,

01:07:41 ◼   ► they have no capability to monitor employee email, et cetera.

01:07:44 ◼   ► They just investigate things after the fact.

01:07:47 ◼   ► I did, there was, the article touched on the fact

01:07:51 ◼   ► that they have a SWAT team for an accidental email

01:07:55 ◼   ► and then they never really followed up on it.

01:07:57 ◼   ► But the fact that email once sent can't be unsent.

01:08:00 ◼   ► And so if you do an accidental reply all,

01:08:06 ◼   ► and a reply all chain includes somebody

01:08:08 ◼   ► who's not disclosed on something that you just

01:08:10 ◼   ► said to only the people who are supposed to be disclosed,

01:08:13 ◼   ► they have a process.

01:08:15 ◼   ► You can hit the red button on your desk,

01:08:18 ◼   ► and they'll quick come in and do their best to--

01:08:21 ◼   ► but I'm curious more about what exactly they do.

01:08:25 ◼   ► to get me to get rid of email

01:08:27 ◼   ► and i don't know i i would like to know is it really only an internal thing is

01:08:31 ◼   ► it

01:08:31 ◼   ► it internal apple dot com what happens if it goes to somebody who's out in the

01:08:35 ◼   ► outside world you know is there sort of a uh...

01:08:40 ◼   ► not like a brute squad but like uh... uh... almost like a p_r_ team

01:08:44 ◼   ► who comes to you know sort of

01:08:48 ◼   ► brybue

01:08:49 ◼   ► or you know joel you know

01:08:51 ◼   ► uh... i don't know what that

01:08:53 ◼   ► Do you know what I mean? Like yeah sounds like there's a process for like, you know

01:08:57 ◼   ► So you mean like if it goes to some what like reporter the New York Times or something like that?

01:09:00 ◼   ► Well, that would be I think dude

01:09:02 ◼   ► I think if it went to a reporter they'd know they're screwed and yeah

01:09:05 ◼   ► And it would go through any anything would go through Apple PR at that point

01:09:09 ◼   ► But if it just goes to random, I don't know okay parts like a partner. Yeah, okay, right

01:09:15 ◼   ► You know do they have like I would guess that they have like a official team that goes to like yeah courage them to

01:09:22 ◼   ► Keep your mouth set. Yeah, right you're in the loop now, but we're all friends, right? Yeah

01:09:26 ◼   ► And apparently I mean there as far as like the supply chain for years we were always

01:09:34 ◼   ► Talked about the supply chain being the weak link. Yeah, that was the big news information

01:09:39 ◼   ► Yeah, and that's not now and now it's not as of like a couple of years or so

01:09:45 ◼   ► We're just like last year. I think they said the first time where there were more leaks from Cupertino than from outside

01:09:51 ◼   ► and from the supply chain partners.

01:09:53 ◼   ► - Yeah, which I found very interesting.

01:09:55 ◼   ► - Yeah, I found that, I thought that was very interesting too

01:09:58 ◼   ► and I'm not sure from the outside

01:09:59 ◼   ► it jibes with my view of the company.

01:10:02 ◼   ► Still seems to me like we see an awful lot of,

01:10:04 ◼   ► unless they're false, you know what I mean?

01:10:06 ◼   ► We're seeing so many of these iPhone parts coming out.

01:10:09 ◼   ► And I don't see much that's leaking from inside the company.

01:10:14 ◼   ► I mentioned it before, but like iOS 11 and Mac OS--

01:10:20 ◼   ► - Going into WWDC, there was really not much.

01:10:24 ◼   ► - No, almost nothing.

01:10:25 ◼   ► I would say the least of any year in memory.

01:10:27 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:10:28 ◼   ► - And maybe with High Sierra,

01:10:31 ◼   ► part of it is that there's just,

01:10:32 ◼   ► it's not that, there aren't that many new features, period,

01:10:35 ◼   ► but iOS 11 is certainly as big a change as any other year,

01:10:40 ◼   ► other than iOS, the big change with iOS 7.

01:10:44 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:10:45 ◼   ► - What else was in that article?

01:10:48 ◼   ► He talked about the number of people that they have working in the supply chain at any

01:10:54 ◼   ► given time, which I thought was interesting, and compared it to the number of people who

01:11:00 ◼   ► go through the top 25 theme parks in the world on any given day.

01:11:04 ◼   ► I thought that was a little unfortunate of a comparison.

01:11:08 ◼   ► Like, it's a really crappy theme park.

01:11:11 ◼   ► Foxconn land.

01:11:12 ◼   ► Slaving away, Shenzhen.

01:11:15 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:11:17 ◼   ► Wouldn't that be great if that's how they started

01:11:22 ◼   ► getting people to build phones, if they just--

01:11:23 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:11:26 ◼   ► If they just branded it as like a Disney theme park,

01:11:28 ◼   ► but the theme is--

01:11:29 ◼   ► - Right, but you can't get out.

01:11:31 ◼   ► Yeah, the theme is working, yeah.

01:11:33 ◼   ► Yeah, right.

01:11:34 ◼   ► - The theme is you've gotta put 20 iPhones together

01:11:36 ◼   ► by the end of the day, no matter how long it takes.

01:11:44 ◼   ► The other thing that was curious was that the outline made clear that they had a recording

01:11:48 ◼   ► of this whole session and that they said there was about 100 people present.

01:11:54 ◼   ► Again, there is this irony in a presentation on Apple's anti-leaking efforts actually leaking.

01:12:02 ◼   ► And presumably whoever leaked it must have been offended in some way.

01:12:07 ◼   ► I can't imagine what would motivate somebody who worked at Apple who was at this presentation

01:12:11 ◼   ► to record it and leak it to the outline.

01:12:14 ◼   ► I really find that baffling.

01:12:17 ◼   ► - Well, I think what might have,

01:12:18 ◼   ► I mean, I'm speculating what might have happened

01:12:19 ◼   ► is that they record the session

01:12:21 ◼   ► and then they put it online on their intranet

01:12:25 ◼   ► so that people who couldn't attend the session

01:12:26 ◼   ► could watch it.

01:12:27 ◼   ► So it was easier to get it to somebody else.

01:12:32 ◼   ► Like maybe it's just like a...

01:12:33 ◼   ► - Oh, that might, that makes sense.

01:12:35 ◼   ► And that actually, if that's the case,

01:12:37 ◼   ► it would change my thinking on this,

01:12:41 ◼   ► was that they could, if there weren't,

01:12:45 ◼   ► they did, the outline did not release the whole recording.

01:12:48 ◼   ► And I think for the sake of protecting their sources,

01:12:51 ◼   ► you know, but they just wrote about it.

01:12:53 ◼   ► But there were direct quotes.

01:12:55 ◼   ► But I feel like they could use those quotes

01:12:57 ◼   ► to figure out which, you know,

01:12:58 ◼   ► 'cause this presentation has been given

01:13:00 ◼   ► to employees over and over.

01:13:01 ◼   ► This is like something that's regularly given.

01:13:04 ◼   ► And they could triangulate exact quotes

01:13:07 ◼   ► to say this was the one that we gave on May 13th and here were the people who were there.

01:13:12 ◼   ► You know, yeah, the people who are these crack law enforcement agents who are investigators

01:13:18 ◼   ► could could narrow down the list of people who were there pretty quickly if it had to

01:13:21 ◼   ► be recorded at the session. Yeah, right.

01:13:24 ◼   ► I mean, I don't know. I don't know what I don't know how they got it, but I just know from having

01:13:31 ◼   ► worked at a company that a lot of times, like if you work in an operations unit and they have like

01:13:37 ◼   ► some sort of thing that everybody's supposed to go to, you might not be able to go because unless

01:13:42 ◼   ► you're doing it on off hours or something because you need to be there all the time.

01:13:45 ◼   ► Right. So yeah, I could see it being like that, but I think that you could watch it from your

01:13:50 ◼   ► desk, but you can't. I'm under the impression that that presentation is given all the time.

01:13:54 ◼   ► So it may not have been recorded because if you couldn't make the one on May 13th,

01:13:58 ◼   ► you could just go to the one that's June 13th. On the other hand, there was nothing in it that was

01:14:02 ◼   ► other than the mild irony of an anti-leaking presentation being leaked, there really wasn't

01:14:07 ◼   ► anything in there that made Apple look bad. It's just something that they don't want to talk about.

01:14:12 ◼   ► Anyway, good scoop for the outline. It was also funny that you were name-checked.

01:14:19 ◼   ► Yes, that was true. They pointed out my recent observations on scoops having run a bit dry

01:14:26 ◼   ► lately for Mark Gurman and they seemed to relish that.

01:14:30 ◼   ► In response, I think it was in the Q&A part.

01:14:31 ◼   ► Yeah, maybe, I don't know.

01:14:35 ◼   ► Yeah, I think so. And it was just, so it was not, yeah, I know that you're part of the canned

01:14:39 ◼   ► presentation, but somebody asked a question in response to the question that was suggested,

01:14:50 ◼   ► that it's working. I mean, basically that what you were saying was showing that it was working.

01:14:55 ◼   ► Well, in particular, who knows?

01:15:00 ◼   ► I mean, the kid has had a remarkable number of scoops, but he hasn't had any ones recently.

01:15:05 ◼   ► And the one in particular, I guess I should address it on the show, with the HomePod.

01:15:12 ◼   ► There was nothing that Germin reported about the HomePod that hadn't been reported at least

01:15:15 ◼   ► a month earlier by Ming-Chi Kuo or I forget the other guy.

01:15:19 ◼   ► There was another guy who had a bunch of tweets about stuff.

01:15:23 ◼   ► Ming-Chi Kuo had this thing. What is this thing on the top? Is it a display or not a display? And I got caught in a little

01:15:29 ◼   ► Squibble with people during WWDC about whether it's a display or not. It's definitely touch. You can touch it and it definitely shows

01:15:37 ◼   ► Plus and minus buttons when it's playing audio and so that it changes from the little Siri waveform to showing a plus and minus

01:15:45 ◼   ► But it's starting to sound like from what people are saying that it's not like what you would think of as a display with like

01:15:52 ◼   ► 200 pixels per inch and it can display anything.

01:15:55 ◼   ► Like the plus and minus buttons might literally be

01:15:58 ◼   ► hard coded buttons, more like the buttons

01:16:02 ◼   ► on your microwave oven or something like that.

01:16:04 ◼   ► And that the waveform is somehow done

01:16:09 ◼   ► with just like three colored LEDs and a diffuser.

01:16:14 ◼   ► I didn't see it long enough to know.

01:16:17 ◼   ► I mean it definitely looked fuzzy.

01:16:19 ◼   ► - It's projected onto that instead of--

01:16:20 ◼   ► - Sort of, yeah, something like that.

01:16:23 ◼   ► Although it seems like an awful lot of work

01:16:25 ◼   ► when they could just do it with a screen

01:16:26 ◼   ► and then they'd have the flexibility

01:16:28 ◼   ► of changing it in the future.

01:16:29 ◼   ► But it's starting to sound like it's not really a screen

01:16:32 ◼   ► in terms of being able to display any arbitrary UI.

01:16:35 ◼   ► But it is a touch panel and it does light up

01:16:40 ◼   ► and it does show things.

01:16:41 ◼   ► So in some definition it's a screen,

01:16:44 ◼   ► but it's not worth worrying about.

01:16:45 ◼   ► But the main point in terms of observing Mark Gurman's

01:16:50 ◼   ► Scoops is that he had nothing on that.

01:16:52 ◼   ► There was nothing in his report that mentioned any--

01:16:54 ◼   ► all he said--

01:16:56 ◼   ► like the squabble is--

01:16:59 ◼   ► he said-- he compared it to the new Amazon thing that

01:17:02 ◼   ► has a real display, like a TV in your kitchen,

01:17:04 ◼   ► and that Apple's doesn't have anything like that.

01:17:07 ◼   ► And that's all he said.

01:17:08 ◼   ► So he obviously didn't know about the touch panel on top

01:17:10 ◼   ► because he didn't mention anything about it.

01:17:13 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:17:14 ◼   ► And it's just an interesting observation that--

01:17:17 ◼   ► And you know, tomorrow he could hit publish

01:17:20 ◼   ► on a huge scoop about an amazing thing

01:17:22 ◼   ► that we haven't heard about it.

01:17:23 ◼   ► He's only, he's always one verified tidbit away

01:17:27 ◼   ► from publishing one, so I mean it could obviously end

01:17:30 ◼   ► at any time, but it's obviously the case

01:17:32 ◼   ► that he hasn't had anything exclusive in a long time.

01:17:35 ◼   ► - So is it, do you think that he gets his information

01:17:38 ◼   ► from people inside Apple or people in the supply chain?

01:17:41 ◼   ► - I suspect both.

01:17:42 ◼   ► I think he also, I suspect just back,

01:17:46 ◼   ► I've always been curious at the meta level of his stuff.

01:17:48 ◼   ► I think he used to have somebody in the store,

01:17:51 ◼   ► somebody in the retail chain,

01:17:53 ◼   ► 'cause he'd get a lot of stuff at about the time

01:17:55 ◼   ► that it might start percolating through retail.

01:17:58 ◼   ► But for example, he must have somebody inside Apple though,

01:18:02 ◼   ► at some level.

01:18:04 ◼   ► Like his best recent scoop was the AirPods.

01:18:07 ◼   ► He described AirPods like eight months

01:18:10 ◼   ► before they were announced and nobody else had it.

01:18:13 ◼   ► I think he even had the name AirPods,

01:18:14 ◼   ► Although that might have come from like a trademark filing

01:18:17 ◼   ► and I guess, but he had the whole,

01:18:21 ◼   ► the description was spot on and the whole idea

01:18:24 ◼   ► that you would have like the little case

01:18:27 ◼   ► and that that's where you,

01:18:28 ◼   ► that they'd last for like a couple hours on their own,

01:18:31 ◼   ► but then you just pop them in the case

01:18:32 ◼   ► and they charge back up.

01:18:34 ◼   ► He had all of that before anybody did.

01:18:37 ◼   ► So that had to have come somewhere within Apple.

01:18:39 ◼   ► I mean, I guess in theory,

01:18:40 ◼   ► it could have come from the supply chain,

01:18:41 ◼   ► but timing wise, it seems like that was too early

01:18:43 ◼   ► for the supply chain.

01:18:44 ◼   ► I think it came from somewhere within that.

01:18:45 ◼   ► I think it came from somebody who was working on AirPods.

01:18:48 ◼   ► And the thing that he had wrong about it was weird

01:18:52 ◼   ► because he was projecting that it would be a Beats product.

01:18:56 ◼   ► Even though Beats did come out with their own thing,

01:18:59 ◼   ► but there was no way.

01:19:01 ◼   ► But product marketing decisions are the ones

01:19:03 ◼   ► that leaked the least.

01:19:05 ◼   ► - You'd think that the same people who worked on the AirPods

01:19:06 ◼   ► might work on the HomePod, but maybe not.

01:19:09 ◼   ► - Yeah, maybe, maybe not.

01:19:10 ◼   ► I don't know, it's hard to say.

01:19:14 ◼   ► Anyway, it'd be interesting.

01:19:15 ◼   ► The other thing too is I wouldn't be totally surprised.

01:19:18 ◼   ► I mean, it would seem unlikely, but what I've heard is,

01:19:22 ◼   ► well, why was HomePod only announced and not,

01:19:26 ◼   ► why isn't it shipping until December?

01:19:27 ◼   ► And my understanding is that it's software,

01:19:29 ◼   ► that the iOS software, I don't know if it's the device

01:19:32 ◼   ► that actually, the software that runs on the device,

01:19:34 ◼   ► or the software that runs on like your iPhone and iPad

01:19:37 ◼   ► that you can shoot music over to it,

01:19:39 ◼   ► but the software is not ready, is what I've heard.

01:19:43 ◼   ► and that the hardware is readier to go, I don't know.

01:19:48 ◼   ► So I don't expect that they would replace

01:19:52 ◼   ► that top touch panel from a fake screen

01:19:55 ◼   ► to a real screen between now and December,

01:19:57 ◼   ► but you never know.

01:19:58 ◼   ► And I do suspect that strategically,

01:20:02 ◼   ► think about why would Apple announce this product so early?

01:20:07 ◼   ► Well, because they don't have anything

01:20:08 ◼   ► that it's competing against, right?

01:20:10 ◼   ► They're not, what's that company

01:20:12 ◼   ► that famously put themselves in bankruptcy

01:20:16 ◼   ► by pre-announcing their upcoming computer.

01:20:19 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, who was that?

01:20:20 ◼   ► - Osborne Computer Company.

01:20:22 ◼   ► So Osborne had like a PC and it was in the early years

01:20:25 ◼   ► when it was so fun and there were like 14 different

01:20:28 ◼   ► companies with their own competing PC platforms

01:20:32 ◼   ► and Osborne was one of them and they got up and said,

01:20:35 ◼   ► here's what our next one is gonna do

01:20:36 ◼   ► and it's gonna be so amazing.

01:20:37 ◼   ► And so everybody stopped buying the one

01:20:39 ◼   ► that they were selling.

01:20:40 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:20:41 ◼   ► - Don't buy this crap.

01:20:42 ◼   ► went out of business before they could ship the one that they were talking

01:20:45 ◼   ► about. So Apple can't Osborne itself with this because they don't sell a smart

01:20:50 ◼   ► speaker right now, right? That's the same reason they could pre-announce the iPhone

01:20:53 ◼   ► in January when it didn't go on sale until the end of June. In fact,

01:20:57 ◼   ► strategically it makes sense because it might stop people from buying competing

01:21:01 ◼   ► products in the interim, right? Like it makes me a little less likely to buy a

01:21:05 ◼   ► new Alexa if I think I could wait till December and maybe choose between

01:21:10 ◼   ► that and this. But then on the flip side, all they demoed was how good it sounds

01:21:18 ◼   ► because it sounds so much better than the Alexa. So you heard the sound?

01:21:25 ◼   ► You could hear it playing? They had played like six songs for us in a

01:21:29 ◼   ► reasonably, what could reasonably be a living room. It sounded fabulous.

01:21:37 ◼   ► - Truly fabulous.

01:21:38 ◼   ► - But no one touched anything.

01:21:40 ◼   ► - No, not allowed to touch.

01:21:42 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:21:43 ◼   ► - And somebody, I was in a demo with like four other people

01:21:46 ◼   ► and the one guy at the end of it,

01:21:50 ◼   ► I asked if I could touch the plus and minus buttons

01:21:52 ◼   ► and they said no.

01:21:53 ◼   ► And the one guy said, "Hey Siri,"

01:21:58 ◼   ► and tried to get it to talk.

01:22:00 ◼   ► And they were like, "Nice try."

01:22:02 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:22:04 ◼   ► No, but the other thing,

01:22:05 ◼   ► showed so little of the software in both in terms of what you can do by touching the thing itself

01:22:11 ◼   ► and how you're going to control it and how you're going to set it up. But that makes sense that they

01:22:17 ◼   ► wouldn't show that just because they wouldn't want that's the sort of thing that if they have

01:22:20 ◼   ► any clever ideas they don't want to give their would-be competitors a heads up and copy them.

01:22:26 ◼   ► Right. But I do wonder if they just, I mean, if at this point they just have the

01:22:32 ◼   ► like the speaker hardware finalized and maybe there's a bunch of other things that control it

01:22:39 ◼   ► that they're not set on yet. No, I heard through the grapevine that this is a product that has been

01:22:44 ◼   ► being worked on for a while and that more or less there was a team working on it for a while but it

01:22:50 ◼   ► got no interest at the top levels of the company but then once like Alexa really started taking off

01:22:57 ◼   ► and getting a lot of press they were like don't we have a thing don't we have people working on this

01:23:00 ◼   ► "Can we ship one of these tomorrow?"

01:23:02 ◼   ► - Yeah, and they were like, "Yeah, we got these guys

01:23:03 ◼   ► "over there building whatever, working on it."

01:23:06 ◼   ► And then they went over and looked at it,

01:23:07 ◼   ► and then they were like, "Hey, this sounds amazing."

01:23:10 ◼   ► Like Schiller even said at my show,

01:23:11 ◼   ► the team that does the acoustics of this

01:23:14 ◼   ► is super, super talented.

01:23:17 ◼   ► I mean, the thing really does sound amazing.

01:23:18 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:23:20 ◼   ► - It sounds good, and it does not sound like one device.

01:23:22 ◼   ► It does not sound like this fake,

01:23:26 ◼   ► or simulated surround sound.

01:23:29 ◼   ► It's a real thing.

01:23:30 ◼   ► I'm not saying it actually sounds better than having two speakers, but it certainly doesn't

01:23:33 ◼   ► sound like one speaker.

01:23:34 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:23:35 ◼   ► No, I have a Sonos, and the Sonos sounds great too.

01:23:38 ◼   ► Yeah, and the Sonos that they had next to it sounded very good, but not quite as good.

01:23:43 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:23:44 ◼   ► But that was a nice thing that they did by having the Sonos there.

01:23:49 ◼   ► What were we talking about?

01:23:51 ◼   ► Leaks.

01:23:52 ◼   ► Leaks.

01:23:53 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:23:55 ◼   ► As I talk about somebody who told me

01:23:56 ◼   ► that the team had been working on this for a while.

01:23:59 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:24:01 ◼   ► - Well, that's more of a positive story, right?

01:24:06 ◼   ► That's not like a--

01:24:08 ◼   ► - Yeah, and it's not really a leak.

01:24:09 ◼   ► It's not gonna-- - Yeah, no.

01:24:11 ◼   ► - Nobody's gonna have a,

01:24:12 ◼   ► there's not gonna be a MacRumors story tomorrow.

01:24:14 ◼   ► John Gruber says on podcast

01:24:15 ◼   ► that Apple had a team working on HomePod--

01:24:17 ◼   ► - Someone's been working on it.

01:24:18 ◼   ► - For a while. - Someone actually

01:24:19 ◼   ► had been working on this.

01:24:20 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:24:22 ◼   ► people. All right, let me take a break here and thank our third

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01:24:52 ◼   ► where are the referrals coming from,

01:24:54 ◼   ► all the analytics, all built in.

01:24:55 ◼   ► They have a storefront, they handle all that secure stuff,

01:24:58 ◼   ► the credit card processing, the SSL,

01:25:01 ◼   ► to make sure everything goes over HTTPS.

01:25:05 ◼   ► And the thing they're most famous for

01:25:07 ◼   ► is they have all this design,

01:25:09 ◼   ► where they have all these templates to choose from

01:25:11 ◼   ► and they're super customizable,

01:25:12 ◼   ► and your Squarespace site can look like your brand,

01:25:16 ◼   ► not like, oh, it's one of the seven

01:25:18 ◼   ► well-known Squarespace templates.

01:25:20 ◼   ► I'm telling you, you will be shocked

01:25:22 ◼   ► how many businesses and sites that you go to

01:25:25 ◼   ► or Squarespace sites that you just have no idea.

01:25:28 ◼   ► Just poke around sometime,

01:25:29 ◼   ► like when a new restaurant opens up

01:25:31 ◼   ► and has a very cool looking website,

01:25:32 ◼   ► view source and see if it's Squarespace

01:25:34 ◼   ► up there in the little HTML headers.

01:25:37 ◼   ► And you'll be surprised.

01:25:38 ◼   ► Like last three times I've done that here in Philadelphia

01:25:40 ◼   ► with a new restaurant, it's been Squarespace.

01:25:45 ◼   ► In fact, I think there's even a shortcut.

01:25:47 ◼   ► I think you can just hit the escape key.

01:25:49 ◼   ► And it's like a Squarespace shortcut

01:25:50 ◼   ► for getting to their control panel.

01:25:52 ◼   ► Anyway, I cannot emphasize enough

01:25:55 ◼   ► how much time, effort you'll save by going with Squarespace

01:25:59 ◼   ► instead of doing this yourself

01:26:01 ◼   ► and how much money you'll save

01:26:02 ◼   ► versus paying thousands and thousands of dollars

01:26:04 ◼   ► to have somebody build you a website.

01:26:05 ◼   ► You could just do it yourself.

01:26:06 ◼   ► You don't have to be an expert on web design

01:26:09 ◼   ► or the web technologies.

01:26:12 ◼   ► It's like Squarespace makes it as possible

01:26:14 ◼   ► to just do your website yourself and have it look great

01:26:17 ◼   ► as like word processing was back in the day

01:26:20 ◼   ► as opposed to hiring somebody

01:26:21 ◼   ► to type up a professional resume for you, right?

01:26:24 ◼   ► It's like, that's what they've done for the web,

01:26:26 ◼   ► really is, they've taken it to that level.

01:26:29 ◼   ► They sponsor the show all the time, you've heard of them,

01:26:33 ◼   ► but they keep sponsoring because you guys keep going there

01:26:35 ◼   ► and checking them out.

01:26:36 ◼   ► So do it, remember, go to squarespace.com

01:26:39 ◼   ► and use this offer code, Gruber, my last name,

01:26:42 ◼   ► and you will get 10% off your first purchase.

01:26:45 ◼   ► You can even purchase up to a year in advance.

01:26:47 ◼   ► So you could save 10% for the entire year

01:26:48 ◼   ► if you use that code, Gruber.

01:26:50 ◼   ► So remember that.

01:26:51 ◼   ► And my thanks to them for supporting the show

01:26:54 ◼   ► and my thanks to all of you

01:26:55 ◼   ► who are apparently making Squarespace websites

01:26:58 ◼   ► and using that code.

01:27:00 ◼   ► - Did you, you saw the report that,

01:27:05 ◼   ► well, speculation that the iMac Pro,

01:27:08 ◼   ► the keyboard might come with touch ID.

01:27:11 ◼   ► I guess it has a--

01:27:13 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:27:14 ◼   ► I wonder if they could do it over the air though

01:27:17 ◼   ► to the keyboard.

01:27:18 ◼   ► Yeah, somebody--

01:27:19 ◼   ► - So iMac, so who is this?

01:27:21 ◼   ► Pike, what's his name?

01:27:24 ◼   ► Christopher Pike?

01:27:25 ◼   ► No, that's the captain on Star Trek.

01:27:26 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:27:27 ◼   ► - Anyway, I'm sure it'll be in your show notes,

01:27:30 ◼   ► but the iMac Pro comes with a secure enclave processor.

01:27:35 ◼   ► - Yeah, and they figured this out by looking at,

01:27:39 ◼   ► I don't know if it was High Sierra, probably High Sierra,

01:27:41 ◼   ► because there's no reason that it would be in regular Sierra

01:27:43 ◼   ► since the iMac Pro is never going to run regular Sierra.

01:27:47 ◼   ► Somebody was poking around the bits of the High Sierra

01:27:50 ◼   ► developer beta, and they found--

01:27:52 ◼   ► you can often find little tidbits of upcoming hardware

01:27:55 ◼   ► in there.

01:27:56 ◼   ► And long story short, the proof of it--

01:28:00 ◼   ► you have to be like a super nerd to figure it out.

01:28:02 ◼   ► But looks like it might have an ARM coprocessor like the Touch

01:28:06 ◼   ► ID sensor in the MacBooks, MacBook Pros.

01:28:10 ◼   ► I wonder though if they could do it wirelessly.

01:28:12 ◼   ► I mean, it'd be cool if they did,

01:28:13 ◼   ► but maybe the touch ID sensor would be somewhere,

01:28:16 ◼   ► it'd be like trying to get the SD card slot in the back.

01:28:21 ◼   ► (laughs)

01:28:22 ◼   ► - Well, but they do Apple Pay.

01:28:27 ◼   ► So you can, I mean, you can pay,

01:28:31 ◼   ► like if you don't have, like I have touch bar MacBook Pro,

01:28:34 ◼   ► but you can Apple Pay from your phone

01:28:37 ◼   ► or from your watch on your Mac.

01:28:39 ◼   ► - Yeah, but that's different than having

01:28:41 ◼   ► the actual processor, you know what I mean?

01:28:42 ◼   ► The actual system on a chip, you know what I mean?

01:28:44 ◼   ► You could do Apple Pay on,

01:28:45 ◼   ► I could do Apple Pay on my old MacBook here.

01:28:48 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:28:49 ◼   ► - It does, it's, you know, Apple, you just need--

01:28:52 ◼   ► - But you mean you can do it,

01:28:53 ◼   ► you can validate from your phone or from your watch?

01:28:57 ◼   ► - Yeah, I could do it from my phone.

01:28:59 ◼   ► Like if I go to somebody's website

01:29:01 ◼   ► who has Apple Pay on their website,

01:29:02 ◼   ► it'll just ping my phone and I can touch ID on it.

01:29:04 ◼   ► - Okay, so it doesn't have any, well.

01:29:06 ◼   ► - No, this would be like a way--

01:29:08 ◼   ► - I don't know how that works.

01:29:10 ◼   ► - Well, they could put the sensor in the keyboard,

01:29:12 ◼   ► although they've shown the keyboard

01:29:13 ◼   ► and it didn't look like it had it.

01:29:14 ◼   ► - It didn't look like it had one, yeah.

01:29:17 ◼   ► - Who knows, who knows what they're doing with it?

01:29:18 ◼   ► It could be that they've got that,

01:29:20 ◼   ► they've got a little iOS processor in there

01:29:23 ◼   ► for an entirely different reason.

01:29:24 ◼   ► In the way that your AirPods are really

01:29:32 ◼   ► tiny little iOS computing devices,

01:29:36 ◼   ► but you don't think of them as such.

01:29:37 ◼   ► there might be some sort of cool feature in there,

01:29:39 ◼   ► but they were like, well, we could do it,

01:29:40 ◼   ► but it would almost be like building a computer

01:29:42 ◼   ► and a computer and they'd be like, well, we can do that.

01:29:44 ◼   ► But who knows if it's touch ID.

01:29:46 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:29:47 ◼   ► It seems at some point that that,

01:29:50 ◼   ► you're starting to, if you're not gonna

01:29:53 ◼   ► have the stuff available on all your platforms,

01:29:58 ◼   ► that seems kind of weird to me, but I guess you,

01:30:00 ◼   ► and you can do the touch bar on everything.

01:30:03 ◼   ► - I guess so.

01:30:04 ◼   ► I'm a little bit surprised that the new MacBook

01:30:08 ◼   ► didn't have the touch bar.

01:30:09 ◼   ► And there were no rumors about it having it,

01:30:12 ◼   ► but I just thought, well, why wouldn't they?

01:30:15 ◼   ► It's not like the thing is sold at a discount.

01:30:16 ◼   ► It's a pretty expensive computer, really.

01:30:18 ◼   ► - Right.

01:30:19 ◼   ► - And I mean, but it could just be space.

01:30:22 ◼   ► Obviously, that thing is,

01:30:24 ◼   ► it's like three sheets of paper thick.

01:30:26 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:30:27 ◼   ► - So, but I don't know.

01:30:29 ◼   ► I was a little surprised that it didn't have it.

01:30:34 ◼   ► Same way I would guess that ProMotion is coming to the iPhone this year.

01:30:37 ◼   ► Right.

01:30:39 ◼   ► Like I shot my mouth off about True Tone coming to the iPhone,

01:30:42 ◼   ► but that makes sense because True Tone requires sensors to sense the ambient light,

01:30:47 ◼   ► and sensors take up space and the phone doesn't have space to spare.

01:30:51 ◼   ► I mean, I don't know if you heard, but they even took...

01:30:53 ◼   ► Nobody noticed, but last year they took out the headphone jack.

01:30:55 ◼   ► They took out the headphone jack on the iPhone because they needed the space.

01:31:02 ◼   ► So the fact is anybody told that has anybody told the verge? I don't think so.

01:31:07 ◼   ► So what should call the verge? Uh, so I would expect, but I would expect, uh,

01:31:12 ◼   ► cause I think all you need for promotion is you need the software support in iOS

01:31:16 ◼   ► and you need a really super fast GPU and they've already done the work in iOS

01:31:21 ◼   ► obviously. And uh, the GPU,

01:31:25 ◼   ► I would guess is not going to, you know,

01:31:27 ◼   ► I would guess that the iPhone is going to have a nice GPU. So I would hope that

01:31:32 ◼   ► it has this promotion. But it seems like they've got a few technologies floating out there

01:31:36 ◼   ► that are on certain devices but not, I mean like 3D touch is not on the iPads either.

01:31:43 ◼   ► Right, right. I wonder about 3D touch. I wonder, I don't know. I feel like it, that's a feature

01:31:50 ◼   ► that I just don't, I still don't know if I like it.

01:31:55 ◼   ► I mean, I only had it for a little while.

01:31:58 ◼   ► Well, six, seven months, something like that,

01:32:01 ◼   ► until the SE came out.

01:32:04 ◼   ► And I liked it.

01:32:05 ◼   ► I think using it in Tweetbot was probably the single biggest

01:32:10 ◼   ► because you could look, you could just 3D touch on a tweet

01:32:14 ◼   ► and see the thread basically, you know,

01:32:18 ◼   ► replies and stuff like that.

01:32:20 ◼   ► So what?

01:32:21 ◼   ► I used that a lot.

01:32:22 ◼   ► But I didn't use it that much.

01:32:25 ◼   ► I mean, it was early, but I didn't use it that much

01:32:27 ◼   ► like in Springboard to do special things with the fast.

01:32:30 ◼   ► - See, I use Tweetbot every day.

01:32:32 ◼   ► Tweetbot is usually the number one battery usage on my phone

01:32:36 ◼   ► and I say that not as a complaint

01:32:38 ◼   ► that Tweetbot is an abnormal battery hog,

01:32:41 ◼   ► but it's just, it's the most, it's the app I use.

01:32:43 ◼   ► - It's where you spend your time.

01:32:43 ◼   ► - I spend by far the most time on Tweetbot.

01:32:46 ◼   ► I did not know I could 3D touch on a tweet,

01:32:49 ◼   ► but I don't like it.

01:32:51 ◼   ► I don't think I like it as much as swiping

01:32:54 ◼   ► from right to left.

01:32:55 ◼   ► I get the same view if I swipe right to left

01:32:57 ◼   ► and it feels faster to me.

01:32:58 ◼   ► I feel like the--

01:33:01 ◼   ► - Well, I don't know, I liked it 'cause I could do it

01:33:03 ◼   ► and then I could release it

01:33:04 ◼   ► and that was a little easier than going back, but.

01:33:06 ◼   ► - Right.

01:33:07 ◼   ► Does your iPhone SE have a real button,

01:33:10 ◼   ► or a home button, or a virtual home button?

01:33:12 ◼   ► - Yeah, real button.

01:33:13 ◼   ► - So you have a real home button.

01:33:14 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, it's basic,

01:33:15 ◼   ► other than the chips and stuff like that on the inside,

01:33:17 ◼   ► it's identical to the 5S.

01:33:21 ◼   ► - That's where I am sold on the haptics.

01:33:25 ◼   ► I love that button.

01:33:26 ◼   ► I have to say. - I like that button too.

01:33:28 ◼   ► I mean, I was perfectly fine.

01:33:29 ◼   ► I've only, oh, I guess the 6S did not have that button,

01:33:32 ◼   ► right? - No, it started.

01:33:34 ◼   ► - 6S, but I have used, I mean, I've used my wife's

01:33:37 ◼   ► and my son's 7, and I'm perfectly fine with that button.

01:33:41 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:33:42 ◼   ► Totally, so I just feel like 3D Touch has to get better,

01:33:47 ◼   ► and I kind of feel like it needs to be everywhere.

01:33:48 ◼   ► Like, I think that even to get back to your point.

01:33:50 ◼   ► - Well, that's kinda how I feel about the touch bar too.

01:33:52 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, and I feel like the touch bar, honestly,

01:33:57 ◼   ► I feel like the touch bar needs 3D touch.

01:33:59 ◼   ► I want those buttons to click a little bit when I tap 'em.

01:34:02 ◼   ► I don't like that they're inert.

01:34:05 ◼   ► - Yeah, that would be better.

01:34:06 ◼   ► - And it's just because it doesn't,

01:34:08 ◼   ► they did this thing with a diffuser

01:34:10 ◼   ► so that it looks sort of like fake keys.

01:34:14 ◼   ► It doesn't look like a bright, shiny display.

01:34:16 ◼   ► It's not glossy, it has sort of a matte finish,

01:34:19 ◼   ► and it's diffused a little bit so that the fake keys look like real keys.

01:34:23 ◼   ► It's a very nice effect.

01:34:24 ◼   ► It just makes it less distracting than it would be if it was like a bright,

01:34:29 ◼   ► shiny iPhone display going across the top of your keyboard.

01:34:32 ◼   ► But it also means to me, it feels like they should click a little bit.

01:34:38 ◼   ► I don't like it when I'm using a microwave oven or something,

01:34:41 ◼   ► where they have these permanent hard--

01:34:44 ◼   ► the buttons are painted on the device.

01:34:46 ◼   ► But if they don't give any physical feedback at all,

01:34:48 ◼   ► if they just beep or whatever, I find that unpleasant.

01:34:51 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:34:52 ◼   ► - I feel like they should, you know,

01:34:53 ◼   ► just give me a little feedback, a little click.

01:34:56 ◼   ► What else do we have going on?

01:35:00 ◼   ► We've got, how about all this Uber crap that's going on?

01:35:02 ◼   ► This is me reading from my notes for the show.

01:35:06 ◼   ► All this Uber crap that's going on.

01:35:08 ◼   ► There's part of me, I've linked to a lot of this stuff

01:35:14 ◼   ► recently during Fireball and I've been following along,

01:35:18 ◼   ► And there's part of me is like, why the fuck do we even care about this?

01:35:20 ◼   ► I mean, it does. It is sort of,

01:35:23 ◼   ► I don't know if we're right to be fascinated by this or are we wasting time?

01:35:27 ◼   ► No, I think, I mean, I, I believe that you,

01:35:30 ◼   ► you vote with your dollars and so you should, I mean,

01:35:34 ◼   ► that's one of the reasons why in general I like buying Apple stuff.

01:35:37 ◼   ► Cause I think in certainly in terms of privacy,

01:35:40 ◼   ► I think they care a little bit more about people's privacy than everybody else.

01:35:43 ◼   ► Um, and if I have options at the very least,

01:35:47 ◼   ► I want to use somebody who is a better citizen if they're, you know, and I,

01:35:54 ◼   ► and I don't want to, I don't want to funnel. I mean, I think you can see, uh,

01:35:58 ◼   ► you feed this sort of toxic machine when you funnel money to these people who are

01:36:03 ◼   ► themselves toxic. So I don't want to give Travis Kalanick any more money.

01:36:08 ◼   ► You, you know, a lot of people who work at Apple,

01:36:16 ◼   ► You've met them over the years.

01:36:18 ◼   ► I'm not saying to a T. It's a big company,

01:36:21 ◼   ► and they've hired more.

01:36:22 ◼   ► But in general, people who work at Apple, in my experience,

01:36:25 ◼   ► are good people.

01:36:26 ◼   ► They just tend to be nice people.

01:36:29 ◼   ► They're the sort of people who, to a person,

01:36:32 ◼   ► if they noticed that you left your wallet behind,

01:36:34 ◼   ► and they don't even know who you are,

01:36:35 ◼   ► they're going to grab it and say, hey, hey, buddy,

01:36:37 ◼   ► you just left your wallet.

01:36:38 ◼   ► The world is full of good people.

01:36:42 ◼   ► I think most people are good.

01:36:43 ◼   ► but Apple definitely is a company whose culture

01:36:47 ◼   ► is mostly good people.

01:36:49 ◼   ► I don't understand how an entire company

01:36:50 ◼   ► could form around such a moral abyss as Uber.

01:36:55 ◼   ► Like, and the one to me,

01:36:58 ◼   ► and the whole thing with the culture of sexism,

01:37:02 ◼   ► rampant sexism, and just the absolute worst,

01:37:07 ◼   ► you know, sexual harassment on the job,

01:37:09 ◼   ► and an HR system that obviously was just flushing the reports of it right down the freaking

01:37:16 ◼   ► toilet.

01:37:19 ◼   ► Absolutely horrible.

01:37:20 ◼   ► But this Kalanick, there was that guy email whatever his name is, his number two guy,

01:37:26 ◼   ► and that he literally threatened Sarah Lacy, a reporter who's now the founder of Pando,

01:37:33 ◼   ► literally threatened her and said, "Why don't you know?"

01:37:36 ◼   ► was recorded talking to someone and saying,

01:37:39 ◼   ► well, I'm thinking what we should do

01:37:41 ◼   ► is hire investigators to look into her,

01:37:43 ◼   ► to another reporter, and the other reporter's like,

01:37:45 ◼   ► why are you telling me this?

01:37:46 ◼   ► And he goes, well, this is off the record, right?

01:37:48 ◼   ► And he's like, no, you didn't say that.

01:37:50 ◼   ► You just told me this.

01:37:52 ◼   ► And so we reported it, and they didn't fire the guy.

01:37:55 ◼   ► Like, how do you not fire,

01:37:56 ◼   ► how are you the CEO of this company,

01:37:58 ◼   ► other than the answer being that you yourself

01:38:00 ◼   ► are a horrible person?

01:38:01 ◼   ► - Right, right.

01:38:02 ◼   ► - Like, you say, well, this guy was,

01:38:04 ◼   ► It's not like he was alleged to have said this.

01:38:06 ◼   ► This is actually what he said that we're going to hire investigators to dig dirt

01:38:10 ◼   ► on people who write critical articles about Uber. Yeah.

01:38:13 ◼   ► Look into their personal lives. Yeah. And you say, yeah, that's my number two.

01:38:17 ◼   ► I like this guy. I like his style. I like the cut of his,

01:38:19 ◼   ► like the cut of his gym. He's gone now though. Right. Yeah.

01:38:24 ◼   ► I think that guy is gone and obviously call it because I'm gone. But, um,

01:38:28 ◼   ► yeah, I just, I don't, I, I,

01:38:32 ◼   ► I understand that there are some, in some instances,

01:38:35 ◼   ► for purposes of safety and a variety of other things,

01:38:42 ◼   ► you have to use sometimes a service from a company

01:38:45 ◼   ► that you might not generally approve of their conduct.

01:38:50 ◼   ► But in instances where I do have a choice,

01:38:56 ◼   ► and I mean, I will, I mean, I like,

01:38:59 ◼   ► so when we were in San Diego,

01:39:00 ◼   ► we just used Lyft the whole time.

01:39:02 ◼   ► And not that Lyft is not a perfect company either

01:39:04 ◼   ► by any stretch of the imagination.

01:39:06 ◼   ► However, they seem to be objectively better than Uber.

01:39:09 ◼   ► And at a certain point,

01:39:13 ◼   ► I think a company can get so bad where you just say,

01:39:17 ◼   ► "You know what, I cannot use this company at all."

01:39:19 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:39:20 ◼   ► Anyway, the other thing,

01:39:23 ◼   ► I don't wanna spend too much time on Uber,

01:39:24 ◼   ► but the other thing is I can't,

01:39:26 ◼   ► I can't get what their business is.

01:39:31 ◼   ► I don't see why people think that this,

01:39:32 ◼   ► I don't see why there were $70 billion,

01:39:36 ◼   ► because yes, they did change the world.

01:39:38 ◼   ► The world's a different place now

01:39:41 ◼   ► with these ride-sharing services that you can hail,

01:39:42 ◼   ► and it's really great.

01:39:43 ◼   ► And for some people, it's even more important than others,

01:39:46 ◼   ► just because they weren't serviced by taxis.

01:39:50 ◼   ► It's not just like, oh, taxis were unpleasant,

01:39:52 ◼   ► and now Ubers are pleasant,

01:39:54 ◼   ► but there wasn't even taxi service from A to B,

01:39:57 ◼   ► and now they can get an Uber and they don't have to drive.

01:40:00 ◼   ► And surely it's a good thing.

01:40:01 ◼   ► It's a tremendous thing to keep people

01:40:04 ◼   ► who've had a couple of drinks off the road.

01:40:06 ◼   ► It's so much easier from so many places

01:40:09 ◼   ► that before you either drive yourself and take a chance,

01:40:15 ◼   ► which is a terrible thing to do,

01:40:18 ◼   ► to go back to texting and driving,

01:40:20 ◼   ► especially if you take a couple drinks

01:40:21 ◼   ► and you're texting while you're driving home.

01:40:23 ◼   ► I mean, I've seen stories about it.

01:40:26 ◼   ► It has a measured, the world's a better place for this.

01:40:29 ◼   ► I don't see how they have a unique competitive advantage.

01:40:32 ◼   ► Like as soon as they raise their rates

01:40:33 ◼   ► to pay their drivers enough,

01:40:35 ◼   ► somebody else is gonna undercut them on price.

01:40:37 ◼   ► Like it's naturally going to be a commodity type thing.

01:40:39 ◼   ► And the technology isn't really that difficult.

01:40:42 ◼   ► You just need GPS and maps