The Talk Show

00:00:00 ◼   ► Well, this is gonna be a good one because I've been sick all week

00:00:02 ◼   ► So I'm gonna sound great ladies and gentlemen, my guest this week is Matt Lauer

00:00:07 ◼   ► formerly

00:00:09 ◼   ► Let me close let me close the door click

00:00:13 ◼   ► I

00:00:17 ◼   ► Can't help but laugh and I know it's that the issue is is not not yeah, it's not funny

00:00:28 ◼   ► But if you can't laugh at it, I mean, I think it's a good thing we're going on and I think it's so fascinating

00:00:33 ◼   ► the way that

00:00:35 ◼   ► This can go on for you know things that we can agree have not been

00:00:39 ◼   ► if you describe these actions like

00:00:42 ◼   ► for example inviting um

00:00:45 ◼   ► a

00:00:47 ◼   ► Man inviting a female colleague into his office where he then pulls his pants down exposing his penis

00:00:55 ◼   ► And I think that would be enough right there. Well you you could think you I think we could have won instance

00:01:00 ◼   ► I think we could agree that that that has never been appropriate right that now

00:01:06 ◼   ► 100 years ago that would be inappropriate and it would be inappropriate 10 years ago 20 years ago. It was inappropriate yesterday. I

00:01:13 ◼   ► Think it's so interesting

00:01:16 ◼   ► The way that that and it really seems like it was triggered by this Harvey Weinstein

00:01:24 ◼   ► Outing in in the New York Times where you know, all these women came out against this guy who isn't even that well-known

00:01:32 ◼   ► You know, he's sort of a I mean as well-known

00:01:34 ◼   ► But it's sort of like that will not like Matt Lauer or or the or the president of the United States, right?

00:01:40 ◼   ► Right, I mean Matt Lauer literally is is one of the most you know, it's the nature of being a

00:01:48 ◼   ► mega TV

00:01:51 ◼   ► Star that you'd want to you know, his job title or his job effectively was being one of the most famous people in the country

00:01:58 ◼   ► I mean, that's really literally what he was

00:02:00 ◼   ► Yeah

00:02:01 ◼   ► but that it all of a sudden this behavior that everybody in a Greek can agree is is

00:02:06 ◼   ► unacceptable

00:02:10 ◼   ► But was you know

00:02:12 ◼   ► Kept under wraps for so long that all of it once like the dam just breaks and it all just comes out at once

00:02:18 ◼   ► it's just fascinating to me the way that this is unfolding.

00:02:22 ◼   ► Ben: Yeah, it's, well, I mean, snowballed. I mean, it's not really the right metaphor, but

00:02:29 ◼   ► the floodgates have opened and everybody's talking about it.

00:02:33 ◼   ► Trevor Burrus Yeah, all it takes. It's like one, you know,

00:02:36 ◼   ► it really is like, you know, the analogy to a dam breaking, I guess, is exactly right. Like, once

00:02:43 ◼   ► a little fissure happens, the whole thing just collapses.

00:02:47 ◼   ► Right? It's very bizarre. I do feel and I'll say this, you know, for me personally,

00:02:56 ◼   ► it's I just stand back and watch. I mean, I've linked to some of it. I don't even know how much

00:03:02 ◼   ► of it to to publicize myself, but I there is a certain to me a deep satisfaction in watching

00:03:13 ◼   ► these people who've done these took these men let's just face it it's all

00:03:16 ◼   ► men who've done these terrible things be humiliated in public it is you know I

00:03:22 ◼   ► get yes you know and and mm-hmm but some blues they're loose their livelihoods

00:03:29 ◼   ► really I mean I mean you're a guy like like Kevin Spacey I mean I was thinking

00:03:35 ◼   ► about this today like what does he do after this I mean he's pretty much you

00:03:40 ◼   ► he's been booted from everything that he was involved in currently and it seems like,

00:03:45 ◼   ► I mean, maybe he just appears in Woody Allen movies after this. I don't know.

00:03:49 ◼   ► I don't know. It is interesting. I mean, what does Matt Lauer do?

00:03:54 ◼   ► They all go and join their own club and...

00:03:58 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:04:01 ◼   ► He's got plenty of money, so he could probably just not work and still live comfortably.

00:04:10 ◼   ► I would imagine. I don't know why. I mean, maybe unless he's pissed it all away already, but

00:04:13 ◼   ► you'd think, I mean, all these guys who have been accused of this stuff are independently

00:04:19 ◼   ► wealthy anyway. So I'm not, I'm not shedding any tears from them. I just wonder what,

00:04:23 ◼   ► what happens in this instance. I don't know. You know, and, and again, you know, the money isn't,

00:04:32 ◼   ► hopefully is, you would think isn't an issue like Matt Lauer by what I read was making $25 million a

00:04:38 ◼   ► a year as the host of the Today show. So I don't think that, right, presumably he wasn't,

00:04:43 ◼   ► he wasn't spending it all as he went. Right. But pretty hard. But I don't feel, you know,

00:04:51 ◼   ► like if money was all that mattered, he would have quit. You know, he would have already

00:04:54 ◼   ► quit. You know what I mean? Like doing the show was being that lower was, was the, you

00:05:00 ◼   ► know, and you can see it with Bill O'Reilly from Fox that he's angling in certain ways,

00:05:05 ◼   ► know, seemingly to try to get back on TV somehow. Yeah. No, I mean, I mean, and that's happened.

00:05:13 ◼   ► That kind of thing has happened in the past. I mean, some of these guys, they do get back,

00:05:17 ◼   ► you know, and I don't know so much about the sexual harassment, but I know that, you know,

00:05:24 ◼   ► people who have certainly people who have said made racist remarks in the past have gotten

00:05:29 ◼   ► released and then, you know, they lay low for a few years and then they come back and

00:05:34 ◼   ► Yeah, but then there's some who never come back. Like, remember Jimmy the Greek?

00:05:37 ◼   ► Yeah. Where's Jimmy now? Jimmy's got to be dead, right?

00:05:44 ◼   ► I do believe Jimmy the Greek is dead. For those who don't know, when we were kids, CBS,

00:05:50 ◼   ► the National Football League, NFC rights were on CBS in the late 70s and the early 80s,

00:05:58 ◼   ► and they had a—before the game started, they'd have a pregame show hosted by Brent Musburger.

00:06:03 ◼   ► forget who else was on Irv Cross Irv Cross was was

00:06:06 ◼   ► Was there and and one of the other people at their roundtable was Jimmy the Greek?

00:06:12 ◼   ► I mean I can I'll put a link in the show nuts to his Wikipedia, but he was literally a

00:06:16 ◼   ► Professional gambler from Las Vegas. Yeah, right, right

00:06:22 ◼   ► I mean it's that's his claim to fame and that was literally like the name like when they put him on screen

00:06:28 ◼   ► It would just say Jimmy the Greek

00:06:32 ◼   ► He would give you like gambling tips for the week's NFL games right there

00:06:37 ◼   ► Yeah, right. It was he was talking odds and stuff basically, right? I mean, right. I mean he was

00:06:43 ◼   ► recommending wagers

00:06:46 ◼   ► It was effectively there for people who were waiting to put in their their bets for the games right at the last minute

00:06:52 ◼   ► You know, what does the Greek say and then anyway, he blew it by by making some racist really terribly racist comments

00:06:59 ◼   ► About black athletes and then they had a fire him and then you know never came back. Yeah. Yeah

00:07:06 ◼   ► It does raise a question. So I'm reading it's comment right now. What did he say?

00:07:11 ◼   ► It's just about like blacks being bred better to be

00:07:21 ◼   ► athletes

00:07:24 ◼   ► Yeah, that's how I would and it's very it's very loaded

00:07:28 ◼   ► It's a lot of talk about the Civil War and yeah

00:07:31 ◼   ► slave trade right but it was and and the defense was something to the effect of it wasn't racist because I'm explaining why

00:07:38 ◼   ► Blacks are superior athletes and it's like dude just

00:07:44 ◼   ► It's like you're

00:07:49 ◼   ► Just stop his last name was Schneider. Yeah Snyder

00:07:54 ◼   ► Did not only think I ever even knew that I don't think so either I guess I did but I never never

00:08:00 ◼   ► Never went into long-term memory. He was just Jimmy the kid a cameo in cannibal run. I

00:08:05 ◼   ► Remember that I do remember that

00:08:08 ◼   ► It's a serious question on this front though

00:08:16 ◼   ► with these

00:08:19 ◼   ► So like with Matt Lauer like the news guys

00:08:21 ◼   ► It's sort of like they're just done because it's like nobody goes back and like watches old episodes of the today show

00:08:27 ◼   ► right, but right right, but with like like a Kevin Spacey or

00:08:31 ◼   ► Louis ck. Mm-hmm, you know that

00:08:38 ◼   ► This does something like that make you less likely to watch a Kevin Spacey movie or to watch a Louis ck stand-up special from years

00:08:47 ◼   ► ago

00:08:49 ◼   ► Yeah, it does me anyway.

00:08:55 ◼   ► And I'm not sure if I have a hard and fast rule about it, but I don't think that I do.

00:09:00 ◼   ► I have a much... and maybe it will come around to that, because I know that I've not...

00:09:09 ◼   ► I certainly wouldn't go to a Woody Allen movie anymore.

00:09:11 ◼   ► I mean, the guy's still making movies somehow, despite all the things that he's been accused

00:09:15 ◼   ► of.

00:09:16 ◼   ► Yeah, and I don't even I can't even I find it hard to enjoy the movies of his that I've

00:09:23 ◼   ► loved in the past.

00:09:27 ◼   ► See which is my sad.

00:09:29 ◼   ► Yeah, I'm afraid I'm a I'm on the other side here. I like I completely disassociate the

00:09:38 ◼   ► work from the artist. And so the real I actually haven't watched Woody Allen a recent you know,

00:09:44 ◼   ► a new Woody Allen movie in a couple of years, but that's mainly because I sort of have,

00:09:49 ◼   ► I don't know, I think he's sort of lost it. You know, like I haven't enjoyed, I haven't

00:09:55 ◼   ► really enjoyed a new Woody Allen movie since the one with Jude Law a couple years ago.

00:10:01 ◼   ► It was like a nice murder mystery, a tennis caper.

00:10:03 ◼   ► Jared

00:10:03 ◼   ► Uh, oh yeah, I didn't see that one. Um, by then I was already, I checked out. So my, okay,

00:10:09 ◼   ► let me, let me clarify my thing because now I'm thinking about it. I'm reminded of what my,

00:10:14 ◼   ► my actual philosophy is. And that is that I don't want them to get any money. Um, that's the

00:10:19 ◼   ► baseline. So I'm not going to pay, I'm not going to go, I'm not going to go to the movies to see it.

00:10:24 ◼   ► And I, you know, don't want to, you know, I'm not going to buy it on iTunes or anything like that.

00:10:29 ◼   ► If I happen to have it lying around that I've already purchased from years ago, I might still watch it. Hmm. I

00:10:36 ◼   ► Understand the prince, but it does it still it still taints my view my enjoyment

00:10:41 ◼   ► Just like, you know seeing what he on on the screen is this kind of gross now?

00:10:47 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't know like and so for example like to have you do you watch would you not watch Roman Polanski movies I

00:10:58 ◼   ► The plants key for those of you who don't know I mean I write

00:11:01 ◼   ► Director of Chinatown and a whole bunch of you know Chinatown's his masterpiece, but at some point in the 70s

00:11:08 ◼   ► Was accused and by all appearances certainly his behavior since

00:11:14 ◼   ► did

00:11:17 ◼   ► Like drug and rape what 13 or 14 year old girl. I think she was 13. I think I was 13

00:11:22 ◼   ► Yeah, well, let's let's just say 13 because let's that you know, it doesn't yeah. Yeah, right

00:11:28 ◼   ► and

00:11:30 ◼   ► You know went on the lam and has you know stayed outside the United States since

00:11:35 ◼   ► You know lived living in France where they couldn't extradite him for years and continued but continued to make movies

00:11:42 ◼   ► Like I I I don't know I feel guilty saying it but I've never had a problem

00:11:48 ◼   ► Watching his movies even though I think that what he did was a terrible crime

00:11:54 ◼   ► But you know the movies there why not watch it, but I totally get your point about well

00:12:00 ◼   ► Me going to buy tickets. Yes, see to see his movies

00:12:03 ◼   ► Puts money in his pocket, you know, I get it. I actually feel guilty admitting it, but I don't have any problem with it

00:12:10 ◼   ► So like with Louis CK Louis CK had a new movie set to come out. It was like it's like done

00:12:14 ◼   ► It's in the can it was like he was like two days before his scandal broke

00:12:18 ◼   ► he was already booked on the Colbert show to promote his new baby and

00:12:24 ◼   ► This thing came out that he had this habit of

00:12:27 ◼   ► You know his mo was he didn't touch women. He would you know and ask them if he could

00:12:33 ◼   ► masturbate in front of them and

00:12:36 ◼   ► And then would just the most well yeah go ahead also like you're also apparently doing it on phone calls. Yeah. Yeah

00:12:44 ◼   ► Without asking yeah a lot of really just weird stuff that I didn't realize was even like a thing

00:12:51 ◼   ► No, but like the company this but like the company Purdue, I don't know, you know the studio

00:13:00 ◼   ► Whatever you want to call it, you know in charge of his movie literally just yanked the movie

00:13:04 ◼   ► You know like a movie that they had paid for

00:13:06 ◼   ► Was was literally like days away from world premiere just sitting there ready to go. So somewhere, you know, there's a

00:13:13 ◼   ► Shelf full of prints of or maybe if it's digital, you know, maybe it's just on a hard drive

00:13:18 ◼   ► But anyway, there's a Louis CK written and directed movie

00:13:21 ◼   ► Ready to go that is not going to be released or I guess maybe that won't be released until

00:13:29 ◼   ► The heat cools off on Louis CK

00:13:32 ◼   ► But I I hate to admit it and a weird thing about this movie is that the written and directed by him?

00:13:37 ◼   ► the movie is about like a guy with yes

00:13:41 ◼   ► Some it's very weird. Yeah, it's about a woody Allen like character played by John Malkovich

00:13:49 ◼   ► who has a thing for young girls and

00:13:51 ◼   ► develops a thing for Louis CK's teenage daughter

00:13:55 ◼   ► Right, or I don't know if she's teenage. Maybe she's you know, 20 or something

00:14:00 ◼   ► I'm very she certainly looks like she's teenaged but from the I would say like college-aged that's describe her as college-aged

00:14:07 ◼   ► Yeah, perhaps

00:14:10 ◼   ► Which is a you almost can't make it up

00:14:13 ◼   ► You know what?

00:14:14 ◼   ► I mean like it's almost like you want to go to the next you almost want to go to the next level and have

00:14:19 ◼   ► somebody write a movie about a guy like Louis ck who made a movie about a guy like Woody Allen who

00:14:27 ◼   ► On the cusp of releasing his movie had his own weird

00:14:30 ◼   ► Inappropriate sexual harassment behavior exposed and couldn't release the movie right you almost want to make a movie about gusting inception, right?

00:14:39 ◼   ► It's Disgusting Inception.

00:14:40 ◼   ► Disgusting Inception.

00:14:41 ◼   ► That could be the name of the movie.

00:14:42 ◼   ► Well, it certainly should be the name of this episode of the podcast.

00:14:47 ◼   ► Yeah, and I think, I mean, you know, if it had been something more benign, just like a buddy

00:14:55 ◼   ► movie or something like that, I wonder if they probably would have still released it. And it's

00:15:02 ◼   ► just the combination of the accusations against him and the subject matter of the movie. Somebody

00:15:08 ◼   ► probably said, "This is not a good idea."

00:15:11 ◼   ► - It's just bizarre, and it makes me wonder--

00:15:14 ◼   ► - Although I guess having him go on tour too, though,

00:15:17 ◼   ► I mean, having him appear on talk shows and things like that

00:15:21 ◼   ► that I think they still would have stopped that.

00:15:25 ◼   ► - I don't know.

00:15:26 ◼   ► I do wonder if the movie had an entirely,

00:15:29 ◼   ► like you said, if it was just a buddy movie,

00:15:31 ◼   ► would they have pulled it?

00:15:32 ◼   ► Is it, how much of the fact that the nature

00:15:35 ◼   ► movie itself played directly into this whole yeah and i don't know like if he's not gonna tour and

00:15:43 ◼   ► people aren't gonna let go right you know they're not gonna do the talk show circuit and stuff like

00:15:47 ◼   ► that or is it worth it to release the movie at all right and maybe if they i wonder if you're

00:15:53 ◼   ► gonna take a bath on it either way might as well look better right because like if you want to

00:15:59 ◼   ► release the movie it's it you need to do that promotion and go on the talk shows etc to

00:16:05 ◼   ► drum up interest in the movie otherwise you're doing a disservice to the movie and to the

00:16:09 ◼   ► investors behind the movie but on the other hand you there's not a single credible show that you

00:16:14 ◼   ► could go on where they're going to want to talk about the movie right yeah right and just the

00:16:21 ◼   ► movie right like you're not going to show up on steven colbert and colbert is just going to be like

00:16:25 ◼   ► like, you know, yeah, let's just forget that thing. No, let's talk about this

00:16:28 ◼   ► great movie. That isn't gonna happen. It's so bizarre. Uh, anyway, the one

00:16:35 ◼   ► thing I have learned and I'm among other things like, and I'm following

00:16:39 ◼   ► this and I am listening to, uh, women talk about it and I am learning, you

00:16:48 ◼   ► know, um, I feel like I'm on the good side of this because there's, I don't

00:16:54 ◼   ► do stuff like that. I mean, I feel like I'm,

00:16:58 ◼   ► for lack of a better term, one of the good ones. Um,

00:17:02 ◼   ► and I'm doing as much listening as opposed to talking as I can about it.

00:17:08 ◼   ► But the one thing, one of the things I've definitely learned is like,

00:17:13 ◼   ► except here we are two white men who are talking about it, but still,

00:17:15 ◼   ► this is very true. I want to note that because very true.

00:17:21 ◼   ► the other in the room, but but like the Harvey Weinstein thing was had a similar thing where

00:17:28 ◼   ► where one of the women was confronted by him back. I was gonna say backstage, but whatever

00:17:34 ◼   ► you call it behind the kitchen of a restaurant that Weinstein was an investor in just the

00:17:40 ◼   ► two of them alone in a hallway and he was physically blocking her from getting past

00:17:44 ◼   ► him to get out and you know just horrible horrible you know terrifying

00:17:50 ◼   ► really a description and that when she rebuffed him he eventually gave up but

00:17:57 ◼   ► his way of you know rather than like physically accosting her raping her he

00:18:03 ◼   ► just turned and in front of her masturbated into a plant like a like a

00:18:12 ◼   ► potted plant in the hallway. And, you know, and then there's the Louis C. K.

00:18:18 ◼   ► stuff and this thing with Matt Lauer. It literally, I apparently like in the

00:18:22 ◼   ► middle of the day, like in his office at NBC, just pulling his pants down in

00:18:26 ◼   ► front of a colleague who he wanted to, you know, have a thing with and, and all

00:18:33 ◼   ► of these things. I'm just, I read these things and I think, I cannot believe

00:18:38 ◼   ► that this is a thing. I didn't know this is a thing. And if you listen to women,

00:18:41 ◼   ► It's like ah yeah, this has been a thing forever like men doing really

00:18:46 ◼   ► Really anything you can imagine with their penises in front of women's the thing is there's a whole dick pic thing

00:18:54 ◼   ► I mean just sending taking a I mean I can't I

00:18:58 ◼   ► Don't think there's anything wrong with mine, but I'm not like

00:19:08 ◼   ► Emailing it to anybody you're DMing it to anybody what?

00:19:11 ◼   ► As has never had to see that has never occurred to me genitals are gross

00:19:17 ◼   ► I

00:19:22 ◼   ► Just didn't know and you know it turns out and you know this is one

00:19:26 ◼   ► You know and I mean I I don't crusade about this stuff

00:19:29 ◼   ► but but

00:19:31 ◼   ► And I know that some people

00:19:33 ◼   ► object to

00:19:35 ◼   ► the

00:19:36 ◼   ► Go not objective, but they just they they start rolling their eyes at the terms like male privilege and stuff like that

00:19:41 ◼   ► But it absolutely exists and and I would define like and then this is for me learning like here is a perfect example of

00:19:49 ◼   ► The male privilege that I've had for 44 years and counting is that I was completely unaware

00:19:56 ◼   ► That it was it's completely

00:19:59 ◼   ► common and every woman

00:20:02 ◼   ► Almost every woman has stories to tell along these lines of men doing weird things with their dicks in front of them

00:20:07 ◼   ► The fact that I didn't know that that was like oh yeah that's happened to everybody common

00:20:14 ◼   ► Mm-hmm. I I did not know and feel like a fool. I actually feel like a fool for not

00:20:20 ◼   ► Yeah, I

00:20:24 ◼   ► Was like that thing with the button it closes door

00:20:28 ◼   ► Remember like the for the few years that I had an office with a door and it in a corporate environment

00:20:33 ◼   ► It was like I I always used to just keep people out like everybody

00:20:38 ◼   ► I wasn't keeping anybody in I closed the door because I didn't want anybody to bother me

00:20:43 ◼   ► That's a Matt Lauer

00:20:45 ◼   ► So the store one of the things with Matt Lauer story was that he had a button installed underneath his desk

00:20:50 ◼   ► Like a like a James Bond villain where he could have this button and it would lock his door remotely close and lock his door

00:20:57 ◼   ► or so I heard from somebody yesterday after I linked to that and just was like, you know,

00:21:04 ◼   ► he had to install that and get permission. I actually heard from somebody, a, a daring

00:21:07 ◼   ► fireball reader who works in some kind of corporate environment who said that that's

00:21:12 ◼   ► actually not that uncommon a request that, uh, like executives who people have their

00:21:19 ◼   ► executives who have their own office and typically leave their door open so that colleagues or

00:21:25 ◼   ► whoever can, can stroll in or, you know, pop their head in the door that when they get like an,

00:21:30 ◼   ► an important confidential phone call, that they can immediately close the door without having to

00:21:36 ◼   ► tell the person on the phone, Hey, hold on one second. I gotta go close the door.

00:21:40 ◼   ► It's an executive perks, those sorts of thing. You know, it's like my office is so nice. The

00:21:46 ◼   ► door closes and locks. Well, well, I, so I, here's the thing about that though. The thing that I get

00:21:51 ◼   ► As I get the close the door button, I don't get the lock the door button

00:21:55 ◼   ► You know what? I mean? Like let's say I work for you

00:21:58 ◼   ► and I know that your office door is often open meaning like, you know, I

00:22:04 ◼   ► Not not unlocked but open and I come by and I see that your door is

00:22:10 ◼   ► Closed now if you certainly if you have like a glass wall and I can see that you're on the phone

00:22:15 ◼   ► There's no way i'm not even going to knock but even if you don't have glass and I can't see

00:22:19 ◼   ► the most I'm going to do is knock, and if I don't hear anything, then I'm not going to open it.

00:22:25 ◼   ► I don't know. I don't see the need for the button.

00:22:28 ◼   ► Jared I think the one thing you're not considering is assistance,

00:22:31 ◼   ► and I've never had one, but viewing people who had assistance, the assistant often feels like,

00:22:40 ◼   ► even if the person's on the phone, I can walk in and deliver them papers or stuff like that,

00:22:43 ◼   ► because often they have to do that. They need something while they're on the phone.

00:22:47 ◼   ► Pete Right.

00:22:47 ◼   ► So I think there's a there are different circumstances where maybe that comes into play but right so anyway bottom line

00:22:53 ◼   ► Maybe it's not that weird that he had a bucket locks to the door, but it's certainly really weird. He chose to use it

00:22:58 ◼   ► Yes, and that's completely wrong. I

00:23:00 ◼   ► Have some terrible news to report. I just I brought with me a bottle of my my home home fizzy SodaStream water

00:23:10 ◼   ► Mm-hmm wet my whistle during the show, you know, because I especially necessary because I've been under the weather

00:23:17 ◼   ► Yeah, well it turns out I never carbonated it. It's flat. That's a

00:23:20 ◼   ► flat water John

00:23:23 ◼   ► And I'm not gonna interrupt the show to go get a bottle of fizzy water

00:23:26 ◼   ► Because I tell you this is where your assistant your assistant would come in and where's Joe where's Jonas?

00:23:33 ◼   ► Go carbonate my water. Yeah

00:23:39 ◼   ► All right, we're gonna get a new soda stream ours ours broke oh, that's a bad one yeah

00:23:46 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:23:47 ◼   ► That happened to me.

00:23:48 ◼   ► So I think Christmas present.

00:23:50 ◼   ► Ooh, that's a good one.

00:23:51 ◼   ► I don't know if they have new technology.

00:23:52 ◼   ► I don't know if they have a new model yet or what.

00:23:55 ◼   ► The thing that I want to do is get the CO2 pumped into the house.

00:23:59 ◼   ► Because I hate dealing with the canisters.

00:24:03 ◼   ► Yeah, I do too.

00:24:05 ◼   ► I thought I was pretty smart.

00:24:07 ◼   ► It's not that.

00:24:08 ◼   ► I mean, like, you go to the grocery store and they swap them out.

00:24:09 ◼   ► It's not really that hard.

00:24:10 ◼   ► But I always feel like I get to the grocery store and I realize I left it in the car and

00:24:13 ◼   ► just, you know.

00:24:15 ◼   ► I do it.

00:24:16 ◼   ► problem. I don't have to drive to do it. I can walk here in the city, but it's like taking a bag

00:24:21 ◼   ► with these three big clanking canisters. It's like, you know, I don't know. I feel very conspicuous

00:24:28 ◼   ► walking down the city with these very loud clanking metal cylinders. And it's not like a backpack,

00:24:35 ◼   ► like a thing that looks like a jet pack. Just fit them right in there and go.

00:24:42 ◼   ► This is probably this you know what Amazon I don't know how you send them back like the key with these canisters for those of

00:24:48 ◼   ► You who don't know the SodaStream is is a product a wonderful wonderful product where you can turn your own tap water into

00:24:55 ◼   ► Carbonated water

00:24:58 ◼   ► And it gives you control over how much carbonation to put in so I I carbonate the hell out of mine like so like

00:25:05 ◼   ► You know like commercial like Sam Pellegrino or whatever. It's it's barely bubbly to me anymore

00:25:10 ◼   ► more but yeah and it's good because you don't throw the canisters away you you

00:25:16 ◼   ► take them back to the store and they take the empty ones and then they sell

00:25:19 ◼   ► you know like it's like Keurig right right it's coffee things yeah right only

00:25:25 ◼   ► thing that you're actually exchanging is empty air for carbon dioxide right

00:25:34 ◼   ► canisters full of carbon dioxide. So that, you know, I feel very, you know, I feel very

00:25:42 ◼   ► good about that. I feel like, you know, there's no guilt involved. But it is a pain in the

00:25:46 ◼   ► butt. I thought I'd be smart. I used to have three and then when they were empty, I would

00:25:50 ◼   ► go and the one time I just bought two more so I'd have five and I somehow thought that

00:25:57 ◼   ► then when I'd have three empties, then I would take them, but I'd still have two that are

00:26:02 ◼   ► full so that I wouldn't have to go the same day. I could do it at my least. You know,

00:26:06 ◼   ► guess what? I go, I go at all five.

00:26:10 ◼   ► Because you know, that's the problem. You know.

00:26:17 ◼   ► And there's also a very sad thing as you're pumping the carbonation. I get it. It doesn't

00:26:21 ◼   ► just like run out. It sort of tapers off. And so like instead of like struggling to

00:26:26 ◼   ► try and get that last little bit out. Right. Like maybe like when a canister is full, it

00:26:31 ◼   ► takes like, I don't know, 10, 10 pumps of the thing, you know, pump, pump, pump,

00:26:35 ◼   ► 10 times. And then you got like a nicely carbonated thing. Um,

00:26:39 ◼   ► it squeaks mine, the penguin model. I have squeaks when it's,

00:26:43 ◼   ► when it's ready and they tell you like, you know, one is good to two or three.

00:26:47 ◼   ► Squeaks is very strongly carbonated. I go six or seven squeaks.

00:26:52 ◼   ► But, but what happens when we get, I think we've had this conversation before,

00:26:58 ◼   ► but like, I'm surprised that you're, that the thing hasn't shot off.

00:27:01 ◼   ► I

00:27:03 ◼   ► Saw a thing one time a reader did we talk about this does somebody sent me a thing one time

00:27:09 ◼   ► Because they I they know that I have one of these things and they know I like to over carbonate it where some guy open

00:27:15 ◼   ► up is

00:27:16 ◼   ► He opened it up some piece of it shot up and hit him in the eye

00:27:19 ◼   ► And he really yeah, he was alright like it wasn't I don't think he like lost his vision or anything

00:27:24 ◼   ► But he really looked like he'd been beaten up. I mean I mean it was like a real shiner

00:27:29 ◼   ► You got to be careful. You got to like turn your head away from it

00:27:31 ◼   ► You need a you need a helmet

00:27:34 ◼   ► Yeah

00:27:35 ◼   ► But when it when it runs low

00:27:36 ◼   ► It takes you know instead of like 10 10 pumps to get to the point where it squeaks

00:27:40 ◼   ► It might take like 15 or 16 and you're and you can feel there's less resistance

00:27:45 ◼   ► And when it's your last canister in the house, that's just like the worst feeling. Oh

00:27:50 ◼   ► Mm-hmm. It's just terrible

00:27:53 ◼   ► Good show folks so far

00:27:58 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:27:59 ◼   ► - Not a sponsor, Reid.

00:28:00 ◼   ► - Well, we could fix that.

00:28:02 ◼   ► - Sounds like it might be, but it's not.

00:28:04 ◼   ► They should be advertising.

00:28:05 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:28:10 ◼   ► - We could take a break.

00:28:13 ◼   ► I should take a break right here

00:28:14 ◼   ► and thank our good friends at Squarespace.

00:28:16 ◼   ► Look, if you need to make a website,

00:28:20 ◼   ► Squarespace is where you should start.

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00:28:30 ◼   ► So you don't have to like,

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00:28:35 ◼   ► or installing anything.

00:28:37 ◼   ► It's all there through the Squarespace interface.

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00:28:43 ◼   ► you're selling products, you're selling your own stuff,

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00:28:47 ◼   ► whatever it is that you might wanna do,

00:28:50 ◼   ► they handle all of that.

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00:29:00 ◼   ► You're not a designer.

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00:29:02 ◼   ► But if you're not, you don't have to worry about it.

00:29:04 ◼   ► You get so many beautiful templates to choose from, such a wide variety of them.

00:29:10 ◼   ► But they're all customizable and you do it right within Squarespace itself.

00:29:14 ◼   ► It's all visual.

00:29:15 ◼   ► You just go on, they show you the template.

00:29:16 ◼   ► It's there in your browser when you're logged in.

00:29:19 ◼   ► And if you want to drag pieces around to rearrange it or drag something to take it off so that,

00:29:23 ◼   ► you know, maybe there's like a thing in the sidebar that has your Twitter feed or,

00:29:26 ◼   ► or your last few tweets or something. You want to get rid of it.

00:29:29 ◼   ► You just get rid of it right there in the thing you're looking at. Uh,

00:29:33 ◼   ► really it's a wizzy wig way of making websites where you're doing it.

00:29:37 ◼   ► You're modifying the website in the web browser as you look at it because you're

00:29:41 ◼   ► logged in to your Squarespace account. It's, it's super, super easy. Um,

00:29:45 ◼   ► if you are a designer, you can put your own stuff in there. Uh,

00:29:49 ◼   ► if you are a developer, you can get in there and you can, you know,

00:29:53 ◼   ► put your own JavaScript includes or modify the CSS or whatever you want to do like that.

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00:30:20 ◼   ► and remember this code talk show at checkout and you will get 10% off your first purchase.

00:30:28 ◼   ► My thanks to Squarespace for their continued support of the talk show. How about this root

00:30:35 ◼   ► login bug this week? Yeah. How about that? I don't know how that happens. What a bizarre

00:30:42 ◼   ► story. It's just, it really, when I first saw it, I was like, "Well, that can't

00:30:49 ◼   ► be."

00:30:50 ◼   ► Right. Yeah.

00:30:52 ◼   ► And people, when it first broke, people were confused because they were like, "You may

00:30:57 ◼   ► need to hit the button a few times." And I'm like, "That doesn't make any sense.

00:31:02 ◼   ► Why would you have to, why would it work if you hit the button a few times?" And then

00:31:05 ◼   ► the more we learn about it, it makes sense. I mean, it still seems crazy, but the reason

00:31:09 ◼   ► you had to, it wasn't a few times, it was two. The basic gist of the bug was,

00:31:16 ◼   ► so it was, it was categorically to, yeah, cause it was, okay. The basic gist of the

00:31:21 ◼   ► bug wasn't that you could log in as root with an empty password.

00:31:25 ◼   ► The gist was that if you tried to log in as root with an empty password, it would

00:31:31 ◼   ► create or, or enabled the root account

00:31:34 ◼   ► on the first attempt. Because the way that it,

00:31:39 ◼   ► it checks it. It was like the logic, this is my,

00:31:44 ◼   ► the register had a good story about, about the,

00:31:47 ◼   ► somebody tracking this pseudo code, like somebody who went into the debugger.

00:31:51 ◼   ► Yeah. I tried to read that and I couldn't quite understand it.

00:31:54 ◼   ► The gist of it is that when you tried to log in,

00:31:58 ◼   ► it checks something system. Like you say, if your name is Moltz and the password,

00:32:03 ◼   ► it'll say, okay, is there a username Moltz? Here's the password.

00:32:07 ◼   ► they just typed in, let's salt it, you know,

00:32:10 ◼   ► meaning turn it into an obfuscated version of it and compare it to the salted

00:32:14 ◼   ► version of the password that's stored on disc. Do they match? Okay,

00:32:18 ◼   ► log them in. And I,

00:32:22 ◼   ► the part of the gist of it is that you couldn't just create any new account.

00:32:25 ◼   ► It's specific to root, which is this magic con,

00:32:28 ◼   ► the root user is a magic concept in Unix and it's so dangerous and so

00:32:32 ◼   ► unnecessary for a consumer to know anything about that. I,

00:32:36 ◼   ► I think for as long as I can remember on Mac OS 10 by default, the root user is not even enabled,

00:32:42 ◼   ► but there it's, it's there though. It's not exactly, it's not the same thing as not existing.

00:32:47 ◼   ► It's that the root user isn't enabled. And the bug was if you tried logging in as root,

00:32:52 ◼   ► it would enable the account to check the password. And it wouldn't, that it wouldn't get you in

00:33:00 ◼   ► because it wasn't enabled previously. But then the second time you tried like immediately afterwards,

00:33:05 ◼   ► it would let you in because the root user had been enabled by the first attempt to do it.

00:33:10 ◼   ► And when it was enabled, it was enabled with the empty string password.

00:33:14 ◼   ► Ben de la Torre

00:33:16 ◼   ► Empty string password.

00:33:17 ◼   ► Michael Green

00:33:18 ◼   ► Which is not absolutely positively not. Now, the good news is it effectively, for most users,

00:33:28 ◼   ► required physical access to the machine to take advantage of because

00:33:33 ◼   ► Every the ways that you could do use it remotely like through remote login and I

00:33:40 ◼   ► Forget what other things you could turn on but if you haven't liked the feature turned on where you can SSH into your Mac

00:33:46 ◼   ► You know, you could be vulnerable to it by anybody who tried it over the network

00:33:52 ◼   ► right

00:33:54 ◼   ► But those things aren't on by default. So that's the good news

00:33:57 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:33:59 ◼   ► Screen sharing is not on by default, right?

00:34:01 ◼   ► - No, none of that's on by default.

00:34:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah.

00:34:04 ◼   ► - VNC, I know that over VNC, you could,

00:34:09 ◼   ► that's the, what's that virtual network computing,

00:34:11 ◼   ► when VNC is screen sharing, I think that's the same thing.

00:34:16 ◼   ► I think when you turn on screen sharing,

00:34:18 ◼   ► it's actually on behind the scenes, it's the VNC protocol.

00:34:21 ◼   ► So if you have that turned on,

00:34:23 ◼   ► you were vulnerable to it by somebody

00:34:25 ◼   ► who could reach your machine over the network by VNC.

00:34:27 ◼   ► so I'm not trying to downplay it.

00:34:29 ◼   ► I mean, and it's an officially supported feature

00:34:31 ◼   ► of Mac OS X that you're allowed to turn on,

00:34:33 ◼   ► so it's not like your fault if you're using it.

00:34:36 ◼   ► I'm just saying, in terms of how catastrophically bad

00:34:39 ◼   ► this could have been, it wasn't something

00:34:40 ◼   ► that most people had on by default.

00:34:42 ◼   ► But still, it's...

00:34:46 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:34:47 ◼   ► - Yeah, and it's a bigger, even though you have

00:34:50 ◼   ► to have physical access, physical access is a lot easier

00:34:52 ◼   ► in certain environments.

00:34:54 ◼   ► Like, for you and me, it's not that big a deal,

00:34:56 ◼   ► the only people who have physical access to our machines are people in our family.

00:34:59 ◼   ► But if you work at a school or a company where the machines are just sitting there on desks,

00:35:07 ◼   ► particularly a school, I would think kids have kids. I know that if Hank had learned of this

00:35:14 ◼   ► thing and he was in a school that had Max, he would have been all over them.

00:35:18 ◼   ► Darrell Bock I would have. And when I was in school,

00:35:20 ◼   ► I would have. I absolutely would have. I mean, well, here's – I got an interesting email last

00:35:25 ◼   ► night from a reader and and it's a definite blind spot for me because I

00:35:33 ◼   ► don't work I in fact have never worked at an environment where my work machine

00:35:38 ◼   ► was locked down actually I did I had like a consulting a few consulting jobs

00:35:43 ◼   ► like temporary ones that lasted weeks when I used to do stuff like that but

00:35:48 ◼   ► any job that I've had for a significant amount of time I've just had like a

00:35:52 ◼   ► regular Mac that isn't under any kind of IT controller or something like that.

00:35:58 ◼   ► And I certainly don't at the Darren Fireball company. But I got an email from a DF reader,

00:36:09 ◼   ► you know, who I was, I was like, but you know, it seems as though nobody, you know,

00:36:11 ◼   ► as far as we could tell, it just hasn't really been widely exploded, exploited. And he said he

00:36:17 ◼   ► works in it at a large company, mostly windows, but they have a fair number of Macs. And this is,

00:36:22 ◼   ► you know, terrifying because, and I really just said this, this is just a blind spot for me. It's

00:36:27 ◼   ► not that they were worried about like attackers attacking their computer. It's, it's what about

00:36:31 ◼   ► the employees who aren't supposed to have administrator access on their Macs, who found

00:36:35 ◼   ► out about this bug and took control of it and gave themselves admin access. Like you could use this

00:36:41 ◼   ► bug to create the root user, log in as root, turn your user account into an admin account.

00:36:49 ◼   ► And then even when the bug fix came out, your account is still admin. It's not really an

00:36:57 ◼   ► attacker taking advantage of it. It's like the user themselves taking advantage of it to

00:37:01 ◼   ► circumvent the IT department's rules. Same thing in a school, right? I mean,

00:37:06 ◼   ► it's the exact same thing you can imagine happening in a school is in a workplace.

00:37:10 ◼   ► And that just hadn't occurred to me. It's just a total blind spot for me. And I can totally see

00:37:13 ◼   ► how that's sort of a, I wouldn't say nightmare scenario, but it's a huge problem because I don't

00:37:19 ◼   ► don't even know. I like do the tools that I IT sys admins have. I just don't even

00:37:27 ◼   ► imagine that they have like a tool to check hey this it's check all thousand

00:37:31 ◼   ► Mac users in our company make sure nobody accidentally became an admin.

00:37:36 ◼   ► Maybe? I don't I've never used I've never used those but I wouldn't be

00:37:40 ◼   ► surprised if they are able to cheat to change that though. Yeah they might but I

00:37:44 ◼   ► I guess but I don't know if they could do it in an automated fashion like you

00:37:48 ◼   ► have to go through you know a machine by machine.

00:37:52 ◼   ► - Well yeah I don't know I mean.

00:37:54 ◼   ► - 'Cause it just seems like.

00:37:55 ◼   ► - There's probably a window I mean there's probably

00:37:57 ◼   ► a window that lists like users across machines.

00:38:00 ◼   ► I would imagine they can probably,

00:38:02 ◼   ► there's gotta be an audit.

00:38:04 ◼   ► 'Cause they probably need to audit that.

00:38:06 ◼   ► - Right.

00:38:06 ◼   ► - For like Sarbanes-Oxley and stuff like that.

00:38:08 ◼   ► So there must be.

00:38:09 ◼   ► I've just never used those tools on.

00:38:12 ◼   ► - I guess but it's just.

00:38:13 ◼   ► - On a Mac.

00:38:17 ◼   ► I guess it's just--

00:38:19 ◼   ► - But it's a pain in the ass.

00:38:19 ◼   ► And I mean, in the meantime before,

00:38:21 ◼   ► I mean, Apple was, you know, once it was,

00:38:24 ◼   ► well, at least once we all knew about it,

00:38:26 ◼   ► they were pretty quick in fixing it.

00:38:29 ◼   ► - Right.

00:38:30 ◼   ► - But I think in the, even that interim, like 24 hours,

00:38:34 ◼   ► if you were a sysadmin someplace

00:38:36 ◼   ► and had a whole bunch of Macs that you were in charge of,

00:38:39 ◼   ► you probably wanted to try and go around

00:38:40 ◼   ► and set that password and you had to do it on every machine.

00:38:44 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:38:45 ◼   ► Yeah, the temporary worker--

00:38:47 ◼   ► I'm not sure if you could do, I mean, you might be able to, eh, I mean,

00:38:50 ◼   ► you could, yeah, I mean, you kind of, well, I guess you could VNC in.

00:38:52 ◼   ► I guess you'd have to do every machine individually.

00:38:58 ◼   ► There was nothing you could push out to every device automatically.

00:39:03 ◼   ► Right.

00:39:04 ◼   ► The workaround in between when it became publicized and when Apple issued the

00:39:09 ◼   ► fix at 8 AM Pacific the next day,

00:39:13 ◼   ► which truly was as a remarkable turnaround time. I saw people on Twitter,

00:39:17 ◼   ► I mean you'll see people complaining about anything

00:39:19 ◼   ► I mean, there's nothing that that people won't throw a fit about but I mean

00:39:23 ◼   ► I literally saw people who thought that it was shameful

00:39:27 ◼   ► Like I swear to God somebody asking, you know saying why aren't why is why isn't Craig Federighi?

00:39:33 ◼   ► Issuing a letter of apology. Why hasn't he resigned or been fired because it took 20 hours to fix, you know, like I

00:39:40 ◼   ► Honestly, I mean the only thing the only thing that I mean they did you notice this as well

00:39:45 ◼   ► I saw, but this had come up on Apple's forums weeks ago. And I don't know. I mean, it's easy

00:39:55 ◼   ► for stuff to get posted in the forums and Apple not actually see it, or at least somebody high

00:40:00 ◼   ► up enough to know that something needs to be done about it. Recognize the bug and diagnose it and

00:40:08 ◼   ► say, "Oh my God, that's really bad, and we need to do something about it immediately." So it might

00:40:14 ◼   ► not have gotten—it's understandable that it might not have gotten noticed that way,

00:40:17 ◼   ► but it's also unclear as to whether or not anybody who was in that thread filed a bug

00:40:23 ◼   ► report.

00:40:24 ◼   ► Darrell Bock I don't think they did. It just seemed—that

00:40:27 ◼   ► whole—I linked to that thread yesterday because it was so bizarre that—because the

00:40:32 ◼   ► person who reported it two weeks ago—here, I've got it here. It was, you know—and

00:40:42 ◼   ► You know the Apple forums everybody has like a nickname instead of a real name. So his name was

00:40:47 ◼   ► Chethin

00:40:50 ◼   ► 177 I can't can you believe I

00:40:52 ◼   ► Chethin 176 was taken

00:40:54 ◼   ► But he's I guess it's a he I'm assuming it's a he

00:41:01 ◼   ► I'll just say they but they

00:41:05 ◼   ► They do not seem like an advanced user and it does not they don't seem like they're being cool

00:41:11 ◼   ► There really doesn't seem if you read the the reports it

00:41:15 ◼   ► It doesn't seem like they're being coy about it at all like trying to you know

00:41:20 ◼   ► Play coy and and put this, you know release this

00:41:23 ◼   ► Truly significant exploit into the wild they were just genuinely trying to help somebody who had the problem where when they upgraded to High Sierra

00:41:32 ◼   ► their

00:41:33 ◼   ► admin account

00:41:35 ◼   ► Had been turned into a lot of it or so. Yeah, they got no they got turned into a non admin account

00:41:40 ◼   ► Oh, okay leaving their machine with no admin account. No admin and

00:41:45 ◼   ► So anything you'd need to do on the system where it asks for admin authentication they couldn't do

00:41:51 ◼   ► There is a way to fix it

00:41:53 ◼   ► It's in the thread and it was issued months ago where you log in and the single user mode when you hold command s as

00:41:59 ◼   ► the Mac starts up and

00:42:01 ◼   ► There's some you know

00:42:04 ◼   ► you know command-line incarnation you can do to to create an admin account or

00:42:08 ◼   ► bless an account as an admin account from there and then restart and it fixes it but

00:42:14 ◼   ► This guy posted well, you could just use this root empty password trick and

00:42:20 ◼   ► Then go, you know

00:42:22 ◼   ► Once you're logged in as root turn the guy into turn an account into an admin account or create a new admin account

00:42:29 ◼   ► Restart log into that new admin account use that admin account to turn your old account back into an admin account and then delete the admin

00:42:35 ◼   ► Account you temporarily created blah blah blah, but how and then his explanation and then you know

00:42:40 ◼   ► This was there for two weeks and then all of a sudden

00:42:42 ◼   ► After this came out on Twitter it it became publicized again this two-week old version because the the guy who reported

00:42:54 ◼   ► You know who?

00:42:56 ◼   ► made this a

00:42:57 ◼   ► Explosive post on Twitter that brought this to light said that you know

00:43:01 ◼   ► they you know he and his colleagues had found this a few this whole a few days ago and

00:43:06 ◼   ► Even they when they googled around found this two-week old Apple support thing

00:43:10 ◼   ► So people chime back in and they're like hey, dude, you have to tell us

00:43:13 ◼   ► How'd you find out about this and he it really does seem genuine his answer was yeah

00:43:18 ◼   ► I don't know. I was you know googling around and I found I found it on a four found it someplace

00:43:23 ◼   ► You know, you can't remember where but he can't remember where and I of course tried searching too

00:43:28 ◼   ► But everything you tried searching for yesterday was all you know hours old stuff. There's right. There's absolutely

00:43:34 ◼   ► You know, no way to find it. Can't get past it. Yeah, right, right, which is the problem with their foot, right?

00:43:41 ◼   ► But it really does make you wonder, you know

00:43:43 ◼   ► What that forum was and whether it was you know?

00:43:46 ◼   ► As harmless as this guy's intentions were or whether it was you know something where it was being kept

00:43:53 ◼   ► you know, trying to be kept under wraps to be used maliciously.

00:43:58 ◼   ► And so I get after, so I changed the password when I found out about it as soon as I could.

00:44:04 ◼   ► And then now we have the patch, which I updated manually, but now has been pushed out automatically.

00:44:12 ◼   ► And so that's another thing that caused some confusion too.

00:44:15 ◼   ► Right. Because I got it twice, right?

00:44:18 ◼   ► Yeah, people got it twice, but also I think a lot of people were seemingly surprised that they could

00:44:25 ◼   ► do that, that they could push it out automatically. Even though it's not new. Which I didn't really

00:44:34 ◼   ► know that it wasn't-- I couldn't remember. I mean, I think I learned about this previously,

00:44:38 ◼   ► but I think it's something that goes back to like 2014 or something.

00:44:40 ◼   ► Yeah, well that was the last time, or the only other time it was used. When I wrote about the

00:44:46 ◼   ► fix being out, I said, what did I say here? I'm doing Fireball. To my memory, this is

00:44:53 ◼   ► only the second time Apple has used Mac OS's automatic, that is to say, non-optional update

00:44:58 ◼   ► mechanism. The other was the NTP security update in 2014. And I, after writing that,

00:45:07 ◼   ► got confirmation from somebody at Apple who said, "Yeah, this is only the second time

00:45:11 ◼   ► we've used this. And it's weird because it gave, you know, like you said, it gave

00:45:16 ◼   ► some people the heebie jeebies that Apple even has that ability. And I get it. I get

00:45:22 ◼   ► why you might, you know, you might have the heebie jeebies over it. But…

00:45:27 ◼   ► I would think that in this instance, it's definitely warranted.

00:45:32 ◼   ► Right. I mean, it's, there's a certain point where you really do have to, it's

00:45:37 ◼   ► The nature of being in the Apple ecosystem

00:45:42 ◼   ► is at a certain level you have to trust Apple, right?

00:45:45 ◼   ► This is not an open source operating system that--

00:45:50 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:45:51 ◼   ► - That you could assume,

00:45:56 ◼   ► that you cede all control from Apple over.

00:46:00 ◼   ► I get it. - Yeah.

00:46:01 ◼   ► - And I get that in the old days,

00:46:04 ◼   ► That it was, it's sort of a,

00:46:06 ◼   ► it wasn't like a black and white switch.

00:46:09 ◼   ► It's like it went from, you know,

00:46:12 ◼   ► in 1984 when you bought a Mac, you know what I mean?

00:46:15 ◼   ► It never had contact from Apple again.

00:46:18 ◼   ► Like the only way you'd get any kind of update

00:46:20 ◼   ► is if you chose to put a new floppy disk into the machine.

00:46:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, right, go buy new floppy disks.

00:46:25 ◼   ► - Right. - Yeah.

00:46:26 ◼   ► I was thinking about that.

00:46:27 ◼   ► I was thinking about that today and yesterday,

00:46:30 ◼   ► but I've got this.

00:46:32 ◼   ► So I have a collection of older Macs, and this Performa 6400.

00:46:37 ◼   ► And a few years ago, I was playing around with it with Hank

00:46:41 ◼   ► and setting him up to play some old games and stuff like that.

00:46:43 ◼   ► And then there was only one user,

00:46:46 ◼   ► and he changed the password while he was playing with it

00:46:49 ◼   ► for a couple hours or something.

00:46:51 ◼   ► He changed the password while I was there.

00:46:52 ◼   ► And then we walked away from it and didn't think about it.

00:46:55 ◼   ► And then a few days later, he wanted to play with it again.

00:46:57 ◼   ► He had forgotten the password, of course.

00:46:59 ◼   ► [LAUGHTER]

00:47:00 ◼   ► And so I was like, I don't know what to do.

00:47:05 ◼   ► I don't know what to do here.

00:47:06 ◼   ► And because there was only that one user account,

00:47:08 ◼   ► and I didn't want to lose everything

00:47:10 ◼   ► that I had on there.

00:47:11 ◼   ► I mean, I could have reinstalled everything,

00:47:12 ◼   ► but I just didn't really want to do that.

00:47:14 ◼   ► And apparently, the trick was I actually--

00:47:19 ◼   ► if you take the hard drive, or you can access it

00:47:22 ◼   ► from another Mac somehow, I ended up actually just taking

00:47:24 ◼   ► the hard drive out and putting it in an enclosure

00:47:27 ◼   ► and booting it up, accessing it, connecting it to another Mac

00:47:30 ◼   ► and going in, but there was a system extension,

00:47:34 ◼   ► and if you just drag the system extension out,

00:47:36 ◼   ► it just restarts in open mode.

00:47:40 ◼   ► - Wait, what version of the system was it?

00:47:42 ◼   ► - There was like, because it was system,

00:47:45 ◼   ► I think it was nine.

00:47:46 ◼   ► - I don't even-- - It was nine one.

00:47:48 ◼   ► - I don't even remember having a login for system nine.

00:47:52 ◼   ► I just thought-- - Yeah, yeah,

00:47:53 ◼   ► they came in like eight or something like that,

00:47:55 ◼   ► I wanna say, but regardless,

00:47:58 ◼   ► the funny thing was just like,

00:47:59 ◼   ► It was just a system extension.

00:48:01 ◼   ► - You couldn't just restart with the shift key down

00:48:04 ◼   ► to get around it?

00:48:05 ◼   ► - No, that didn't work for some reason.

00:48:07 ◼   ► I'm not sure why.

00:48:09 ◼   ► You had to actually drag the thing out of the--

00:48:13 ◼   ► - Huh, like maybe it was--

00:48:14 ◼   ► - No, maybe it was deleting,

00:48:15 ◼   ► or maybe it was deleting a preference file.

00:48:17 ◼   ► I can't remember, now I can't remember.

00:48:19 ◼   ► But I remember that it was,

00:48:20 ◼   ► all I had to do was take the hard drive

00:48:21 ◼   ► and connect it to something else and remove a file,

00:48:23 ◼   ► and then I was able to get in.

00:48:25 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:48:28 ◼   ► That was the level of security you had back then.

00:48:30 ◼   ► - So I get it.

00:48:32 ◼   ► Like if your vision of computing was formed in the era

00:48:35 ◼   ► when you literally have to put a disc in your computer

00:48:38 ◼   ► to get a software update onto it,

00:48:40 ◼   ► I get it.

00:48:43 ◼   ► I get it that it can seem like a violation

00:48:44 ◼   ► that Apple can just force this merely by your computer

00:48:48 ◼   ► being connected to the internet,

00:48:50 ◼   ► can force an update on you.

00:48:51 ◼   ► But I totally get why Apple built that mechanism.

00:48:55 ◼   ► And this is to me a completely appropriate use of it.

00:48:58 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, yeah, the fact that they've used it

00:49:00 ◼   ► only for dire security patches and, you know,

00:49:05 ◼   ► I've only used it twice in the last three years.

00:49:08 ◼   ► - Twice in the entire existence of the feature.

00:49:10 ◼   ► I don't even know how long it existed

00:49:13 ◼   ► before they used it the first time in 2014.

00:49:15 ◼   ► That's actually it. - Right, I don't even, yeah.

00:49:17 ◼   ► - So I give Apple a pass on that.

00:49:20 ◼   ► There is the question of how in the world

00:49:23 ◼   ► did this bug ever get past QA testing?

00:49:26 ◼   ► - I think that's the big question, really.

00:49:28 ◼   ► - Right, and I don't know, it's almost,

00:49:32 ◼   ► I would love to hear the backstory of it.

00:49:36 ◼   ► You know, I would love to know more about that,

00:49:38 ◼   ► and I don't expect to hear that from Apple.

00:49:41 ◼   ► - No. - I don't think we'll ever.

00:49:42 ◼   ► - Somebody may leave. (laughs)

00:49:46 ◼   ► - But it's almost so, it's so preposterously stupid

00:49:51 ◼   ► that I can kind of see how, you know,

00:49:55 ◼   ► you know what I mean?

00:49:56 ◼   ► Like, it seems, it's more likely that something like this

00:49:58 ◼   ► would slip through the cracks than something like,

00:50:02 ◼   ► you know, like the empty string getting you

00:50:07 ◼   ► into a regular user account, you know?

00:50:10 ◼   ► Like, the idea that root and an empty password

00:50:13 ◼   ► would get you in is so ridiculous

00:50:15 ◼   ► that I could see why it wasn't even, like,

00:50:17 ◼   ► on a list of things to test for.

00:50:18 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:50:21 ◼   ► I suppose. Yeah. And it wasn't, it was,

00:50:26 ◼   ► I don't know. And, and testing, testing is hard. I mean,

00:50:30 ◼   ► having done some testing in the past,

00:50:32 ◼   ► it's hard to think of every single scenario.

00:50:37 ◼   ► However, this should have been one that they, yeah, you would think so. Or,

00:50:42 ◼   ► or I, I would, I still think that the,

00:50:45 ◼   ► I think that the, I,

00:50:50 ◼   ► I think that writing the bug in the first place was more of a crime even though I'm very very

00:50:56 ◼   ► sympathetic to the fact that bugs are inevitable, you know, and

00:51:00 ◼   ► And I I know how the enough about how the sausage is made with making software that it it, you know bugs just happen

00:51:09 ◼   ► right, but when you were

00:51:12 ◼   ► When you're writing code

00:51:16 ◼   ► That affects login and can possibly affect the logging in as an administrator. It's like you need to be like

00:51:23 ◼   ► in a mental model where you're

00:51:26 ◼   ► You're programming so defensively. It's not like programming other features. You know what I mean? Right? It's like, you know

00:51:34 ◼   ► It's really the crime you go to security

00:51:38 ◼   ► when you go to visit the doctor and and

00:51:42 ◼   ► the doctor is you know putting the stethoscope on your back and telling you to breathe and and

00:51:47 ◼   ► You know shining a light inside your ears, you know, you expect them to be careful and be paying attention

00:51:53 ◼   ► but when you're having open-heart surgery and they're like

00:51:57 ◼   ► Actually, oh, you know

00:52:00 ◼   ► performing surgery on your aortic valve

00:52:03 ◼   ► You expect a different level of concentration and precision, right? You know, I mean

00:52:09 ◼   ► You know, I mean you you you want good doctoring when you're in for an ear infection checkup

00:52:16 ◼   ► But

00:52:20 ◼   ► You know writing

00:52:22 ◼   ► Changing something in the code and this is obviously new because it only affected 10.13 high Sierra

00:52:26 ◼   ► It was not a bug in you know, 10 any previous version of Mac OS 10

00:52:31 ◼   ► Apparently so it's new so somebody run in and change something or added something like

00:52:38 ◼   ► When you're in that section of the code

00:52:40 ◼   ► It just seems to me like you should be in heart surgeon mode in terms of your

00:52:46 ◼   ► Concentration and care and your is there any way that I'm that what I'm doing here that this if statement or this else statement

00:52:54 ◼   ► Are there any assumptions I'm making here that are bad assumptions?

00:52:58 ◼   ► Yeah, like I don't know

00:53:00 ◼   ► I just don't see how hey check if you can log in as root with an empty password and to hit the button a couple

00:53:06 ◼   ► times I

00:53:07 ◼   ► Don't see how that would is a reasonable. I mean, I'm sure it's a reasonable test case. I'm sure it's added to the test cases now

00:53:15 ◼   ► Yeah, I just don't know. I really I really just don't I really don't see how that was not caught by QA

00:53:22 ◼   ► I really do. It's the bug in the first place that to me seems so baffling

00:53:27 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean I can see I can see I can see me doing it

00:53:29 ◼   ► Because like I would think I would think for five minutes

00:53:33 ◼   ► I'm gonna change this little thing because it's gonna make it so much easier to test this other thing

00:53:37 ◼   ► and then I forget to go back and change the original, you know, the thing that I did to enable that test

00:53:42 ◼   ► or whatever or make, you know, make a change or something like that. That was when I did SQL stuff and like that was,

00:53:50 ◼   ► I was famous for that.

00:53:52 ◼   ► Oh, I forgot to change that thing.

00:54:00 ◼   ► I don't know what that is why I do not I don't do deep level. That's also it's well, it's why I don't

00:54:04 ◼   ► program anymore. Really. It's also why I don't do people. Right? Yeah.

00:54:10 ◼   ► I you know, in some other universe, maybe I spent my career programming, but I don't I don't think

00:54:17 ◼   ► in any universe was I allowed near the code that lets you log into a system 100 million users.

00:54:27 ◼   ► backed by the most successful company in the world. Yeah, right, right. Who prides itself on its

00:54:33 ◼   ► security. Uh-huh. I mean, at least, you know, it wasn't iOS, which is, I think, limits, I mean,

00:54:45 ◼   ► if we would just look at it from a business perspective for Apple, I'm not trying to,

00:54:50 ◼   ► I'm not trying to whitewash this book because I think it was really bad, but it didn't affect iOS,

00:54:56 ◼   ► And so I you know, if you're a business and you're looking to purchase a bunch of iOS devices or something like that

00:55:02 ◼   ► You could probably still say well, okay

00:55:03 ◼   ► I guess they didn't you know, I don't care about the Mac as much because I'm mostly interested in these other things

00:55:08 ◼   ► Yeah doubt that I just I doubt that it's gonna make that much of a difference in their business

00:55:14 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't think there's any long term. I don't think there's any long term

00:55:19 ◼   ► I mean, I would think you know, like if you if you are in a business and you were looking to buy a bunch of Macs

00:55:22 ◼   ► and

00:55:25 ◼   ► You suddenly had to go up against some sort of committee and suggest buying them right now. I mean you probably get asked something

00:55:32 ◼   ► Well, somebody was the Mac is so big now. I mean I even you know and the it

00:55:41 ◼   ► The trend of you know corporate IT places opening themselves up to the Mac

00:55:48 ◼   ► I mean didn't Walmart just wasn't Walmart just in the news for doing a thing

00:55:52 ◼   ► Like you're doing pretty much the same thing IBM did where if you work for the Walmart, you know

00:55:58 ◼   ► Not like in the store, I guess but you know in the corporation corporate

00:56:01 ◼   ► You get to pick now, you know, you come in and they're like, well what type of computer do you want?

00:56:07 ◼   ► Do you want to think pad or do you want a Mac book?

00:56:09 ◼   ► You could just pick a Mac book and they're officially supported and they expect you know

00:56:13 ◼   ► Thousands tens of thousands even of people to be doing it. The IBM thing is apparently a huge success

00:56:20 ◼   ► Van very popular and and has employees very, you know, please are very happy about it

00:56:25 ◼   ► And so since that's going on and since that's an actual area of growth for the Mac you got it and it's so common

00:56:33 ◼   ► You've got to figure that every week of the year. There's somebody at some company

00:56:38 ◼   ► Who's petitioning hire, you know to make a move like that, right?

00:56:42 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah every week of every year

00:56:45 ◼   ► there's at least you know probably multiple cases of somebody who's gonna stick their neck out and say I think that you know,

00:56:51 ◼   ► I think we should you know

00:56:53 ◼   ► Allow people to I think we should officially support the Mac in our IT environment

00:56:58 ◼   ► Well, imagine being the poor the poor son of a bitch who was doing it this week, right? Right?

00:57:04 ◼   ► Just made a whole bunch of extra work for somebody or

00:57:11 ◼   ► Screwed up screwed up their business their business case again

00:57:14 ◼   ► It really does seem like something out of like if Woody Allen made a movie for nerds really does seem like they're like

00:57:20 ◼   ► Like two days ago like you just put together this big proposal and send it up the chain

00:57:26 ◼   ► You know your company should do the IBM thing and then all of a sudden all of a sudden it hits Twitter that you can

00:57:31 ◼   ► Log into any Mac on the planet with root

00:57:34 ◼   ► empty string

00:57:36 ◼   ► And you're you're the root

00:57:38 ◼   ► (both laughing)

00:57:41 ◼   ► - Oh man.

00:57:45 ◼   ► - You're like desperately trying to unsend an email.

00:57:47 ◼   ► (both laughing)

00:57:50 ◼   ► All right, let me take another break here

00:57:55 ◼   ► and thank our good friends at Audible.

00:57:59 ◼   ► Audible is a leading provider

00:58:00 ◼   ► of premium digital spoken audio information.

00:58:04 ◼   ► It's a bit of a mouthful.

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00:58:13 ◼   ► That's their big claim to fame

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00:59:44 ◼   ► this was going to be a good book. When I was younger, I used to finish every book I started.

00:59:50 ◼   ► And then I realized how stupid that was. If you're really miserable in a book, why in

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00:59:59 ◼   ► I was like, you're gonna slog through this painful experience.

01:00:01 ◼   ► I was like, it probably came from school, right? Because you had to finish the book for school.

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01:00:10 ◼   ► as I was like in my 30s and I was reading some book and I realized that I was halfway through

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01:00:24 ◼   ► They're never gonna read a book again for the rest of my life

01:00:26 ◼   ► Or I'm gonna finish this terrible book

01:00:29 ◼   ► Which had hundreds of pages left or I'm gonna just throw this book in the garbage and I decided to do that and change it

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01:01:40 ◼   ► To recommend a book that I'm about halfway through but really really

01:01:48 ◼   ► really, really enjoying. They've got the unabridged version on Audible, and it's

01:01:52 ◼   ► a book by a guy named Tom Nichols, who's a professor at the U.S. War College, and he's

01:01:58 ◼   ► written a book called The Death of Expertise, and it's more or less about—

01:02:02 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:02:03 ◼   ► It is—

01:02:04 ◼   ► That's been on my wish list for a long time, actually.

01:02:08 ◼   ► It's really good and really satisfying, but I feel like maybe the people who want

01:02:12 ◼   ► to read this book aren't the people who need to read this book.

01:02:16 ◼   ► Of course.

01:02:17 ◼   ► But it's more or less an entire book addressing the notion that somebody who believes, and

01:02:26 ◼   ► a lot of people in America do, that their opinion is as good as your facts in an argument

01:02:32 ◼   ► for the facts, and dismissing experts' opinion as mere opinion when it's an end to death.

01:02:40 ◼   ► Steven: Bunch of eggheads.

01:02:41 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly. And in fact, that word is used several times in the book. I gave the audiobook,

01:02:47 ◼   ► I'm reading the book on a Kindle, but they have the audiobook at Audible and it sounds really good.

01:02:51 ◼   ► I listened to the preview and it sounds terrific. So that's my recommendation. And I feel like

01:02:56 ◼   ► people who like this show would absolutely love this book. You're going to listen to it and you're

01:03:01 ◼   ► going to be nodding your head the whole time like, "Yes, yes, yes, yes." So anyway, that's my

01:03:06 ◼   ► recommendation the death of expertise by Tom Nichols and I ch o l s anything else on the

01:03:16 ◼   ► root login bug. I mean, it's one of the things that's interesting about it is it's just so

01:03:21 ◼   ► simple, right? It's like it's like, okay, it was a terrible bug. Now it's over. But

01:03:27 ◼   ► yeah, it's a quick cycle to like it came out Tuesday afternoon. Yeah. And here it is Thursday

01:03:34 ◼   ► afternoon and it's basically it's well over now.

01:03:38 ◼   ► Yeah. I guess I'm I don't know if I'm a very good podcast host. I do things out of order.

01:03:43 ◼   ► I do have some follow up from previous episodes. I mentioned an app. I forget if it was last

01:03:51 ◼   ► week or when. But it was an app that I knew that I'd heard about from Jason Snell. And

01:03:57 ◼   ► it was a thing for the Mac that would let you control your bandwidth usage like so for

01:04:02 ◼   ► For example, if you're tethering from your phone and your phone has, let's say, only

01:04:06 ◼   ► 5 gigabytes a month of bandwidth, you don't want your Mac to use it all up because the

01:04:10 ◼   ► Mac sort of assumes that when it has a Wi-Fi connection, it can just do whatever it wants.

01:04:15 ◼   ► That app is called Trip Mode.

01:04:17 ◼   ► I will put a link in the show notes to it.

01:04:20 ◼   ► It's pretty interesting.

01:04:22 ◼   ► I've since installed it.

01:04:23 ◼   ► It still is kind of hard.

01:04:26 ◼   ► I still feel like even with Trip Mode, the Mac just makes certain assumptions that iOS

01:04:32 ◼   ► doesn't. So when you're on a slurping bandwidth from something that's limited, iOS is better

01:04:39 ◼   ► in so many ways. I was using Trip Mode just to try it out, and I checked email. I swear

01:04:45 ◼   ► to God. And it tells you how much it has a really nice interface. It's like one of those

01:04:50 ◼   ► little menu bar apps, and it'll tell you when you turn it on. It's very easy. You

01:04:55 ◼   ► open it up, and typically it's off, and then when you need it, you just go to the

01:04:58 ◼   ► menu, turn it on, and then while you're turning it on, you can limit which apps get

01:05:04 ◼   ► bandwidth at all, and it tells you how much they use. I checked the email once, and it

01:05:08 ◼   ► used 35 megabytes. But I think that I guess what I should do if I really was going to

01:05:15 ◼   ► to be limiting my bandwidth on my Mac extensively as you go into mail and turn off the preference

01:05:21 ◼   ► to download attachments and images and stuff like that, I guess. But iOS does that automatically

01:05:29 ◼   ► when you're on cellular. At least it does for me. At least the preference is on by default

01:05:33 ◼   ► for me where you have to hit a little button at the top of the email that says "Load

01:05:38 ◼   ► all images" before the images load. But anyway, that's the name of the app. I will

01:05:42 ◼   ► put it in the show notes. The other one when I was almost serenity a couple episodes ago,

01:05:49 ◼   ► I was talking about this weird bug that I ran into where I use the mail VIPs feature

01:05:54 ◼   ► like this. So that you use that feature. I love it where you can set like, yes, set somebody

01:05:59 ◼   ► as a VIP and then set custom notification settings just for VIPs. So the way I get email

01:06:05 ◼   ► notifications is I have them off by default but on for anybody who's in my VIP list and

01:06:10 ◼   ► I ran into a bug or not a bug but a bizarre limitation where once you get to a hundred

01:06:15 ◼   ► it won't let you add anymore. And the first issue and I did follow up on a subsequent

01:06:22 ◼   ► show was how do you edit your list of VIPs and you can do that. I couldn't figure it

01:06:27 ◼   ► out but on the Mac in mail you go to the VIPs mailbox and there's a disclosure triangle

01:06:37 ◼   ► next on the mailbox and it lists all of your VIPs and so you could just see your emails

01:06:44 ◼   ► from one of your VIPs in there. Well, what you could also do is delete somebody from

01:06:50 ◼   ► that list in that in there and then that's takes them out of your VIPs. And then on iOS

01:06:57 ◼   ► you have almost you have almost 100. I had exactly 100 because it told me it wouldn't

01:07:01 ◼   ► let me add it. Yeah, right. Yeah. Wow. And you know, some of them built up over time,

01:07:06 ◼   ► - Like eight, no, I was 10.

01:07:08 ◼   ► - Well, here's an example.

01:07:09 ◼   ► So for example, whenever I have an interaction

01:07:11 ◼   ► with somebody from Apple PR, I add them as a VIP.

01:07:14 ◼   ► - Yeah, okay.

01:07:16 ◼   ► - And there's not a lot of turnover at Apple PR,

01:07:19 ◼   ► but there is some, it's a launching pad

01:07:22 ◼   ► and there's people who have left Apple PR

01:07:25 ◼   ► to go to places like Tesla and other companies.

01:07:29 ◼   ► And so there's some of the,

01:07:32 ◼   ► I have years worth of Apple PR people in my VIPs,

01:07:36 ◼   ► some of them no longer work at Apple.

01:07:37 ◼   ► And so I would no longer consider a VIP.

01:07:39 ◼   ► So you could go in there and do it.

01:07:40 ◼   ► On iOS, you can edit your VIPs

01:07:42 ◼   ► by hitting the little I and a circle button.

01:07:44 ◼   ► Anyway, I said that before.

01:07:47 ◼   ► The new bit of information I've gotten

01:07:49 ◼   ► from somebody who I didn't know their name,

01:07:51 ◼   ► so I apologize and I can't give you credit,

01:07:55 ◼   ► but that limit of 100 is only on the Mac version of mail.

01:07:59 ◼   ► So on the Mac, if you try to add your 101st VIP,

01:08:02 ◼   ► it just gives you an error that says,

01:08:04 ◼   ► sorry, you've got 100, you can't add anymore.

01:08:07 ◼   ► But on iOS, there is no limit.

01:08:08 ◼   ► So if you wanna add more than 100 VIPs,

01:08:11 ◼   ► just do it on your iPhone or iPad.

01:08:13 ◼   ► And hopefully somebody at Apple is listening to this

01:08:16 ◼   ► and is gonna go into mail and edit that 100

01:08:19 ◼   ► to make it 1,000 or something, I don't know,

01:08:22 ◼   ► or just get rid of the limit.

01:08:23 ◼   ► Why have a limit on how many VIPs?

01:08:24 ◼   ► - I know, I don't understand why there would be a limit.

01:08:26 ◼   ► - I don't know.

01:08:27 ◼   ► And the fact that it's exactly 100,

01:08:29 ◼   ► as opposed to like 256 or something like that,

01:08:34 ◼   ► like some kind of, or 255, you know,

01:08:36 ◼   ► like some kind of magic computer integer.

01:08:39 ◼   ► The fact that it's 100 just tells me it was just arbitrary

01:08:42 ◼   ► that, you know, somebody coding the feature was like,

01:08:45 ◼   ► I better make sure that this works

01:08:47 ◼   ► with a big number of these first.

01:08:48 ◼   ► So in the meantime, I'll put in the limit of 100, you know,

01:08:50 ◼   ► to make sure, and then never got back

01:08:52 ◼   ► to actually taking out the limit.

01:08:54 ◼   ► - Yeah, I don't use it for mail very much,

01:08:58 ◼   ► but I mostly use it for the phone to make sure that I,

01:09:02 ◼   ► like so overnight I can turn off notifications for everybody other than my VIPs,

01:09:07 ◼   ► which is why my list is very small. It's basically,

01:09:11 ◼   ► so you know, I don't get texts from Guy

01:09:16 ◼   ► at two in the morning and I don't get texts from,

01:09:20 ◼   ► from Dan at six in the morning.

01:09:23 ◼   ► That's it for my followup.

01:09:32 ◼   ► App the human story is out.

01:09:34 ◼   ► This is a long in the works documentary about,

01:09:38 ◼   ► God, I don't even know when they first started shooting it,

01:09:42 ◼   ► at least three or four years ago,

01:09:44 ◼   ► but it's finally out in final version.

01:09:46 ◼   ► I have a link already in the show notes,

01:09:49 ◼   ► but it's at appdocumentary.com.

01:09:51 ◼   ► I saw a rough cut or near final cut at,

01:09:56 ◼   ► it was at WWDC back in June.

01:10:00 ◼   ► I actually haven't watched again.

01:10:02 ◼   ► So I don't know what's changed from the WWDC version of it,

01:10:05 ◼   ► but it was very, very good.

01:10:07 ◼   ► I love that this movie exists.

01:10:09 ◼   ► I have a small part in it.

01:10:13 ◼   ► I'm glad that my part in it is small.

01:10:15 ◼   ► I love the people who have the bigger parts in it.

01:10:17 ◼   ► I feel like they chose some really interesting people,

01:10:20 ◼   ► including my good friend, our good friend, Brent Simmons,

01:10:23 ◼   ► plays a pretty significant role in it.

01:10:24 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:10:28 ◼   ► I really recommend it.

01:10:29 ◼   ► I really hope the fact, so it was a Kickstarter project

01:10:32 ◼   ► where they raised like $167,000 to make the movie.

01:10:36 ◼   ► For a movie that's four years in the works

01:10:39 ◼   ► and that is truly as professionally shot and edited

01:10:44 ◼   ► as this movie, and it's truly as good looking

01:10:49 ◼   ► a documentary as you're gonna find.

01:10:50 ◼   ► It's truly a professional looking movie.

01:10:52 ◼   ► $167,000 is not a lot of money.

01:10:55 ◼   ► - Yeah, looks great, the trailer looks great.

01:10:57 ◼   ► That's all I've seen so far.

01:10:58 ◼   ► Just honestly if you haven't seen this before just there's a trailer. I mean, it's lonely sandwich

01:11:02 ◼   ► Yeah, you know, he's the executive producer on the movie

01:11:06 ◼   ► Well, that's unfair what was that were they saying I've lost my train of thought I

01:11:12 ◼   ► Know what I wanted to say is that I first got introduced to them

01:11:15 ◼   ► This is a true story. It was a couple years ago at WWDC and

01:11:20 ◼   ► they were just beginning to make the movie and they wanted to

01:11:27 ◼   ► get like a half-hour interview with me on on video while I was at WWDC and

01:11:33 ◼   ► It was Adam Lisa Gore

01:11:37 ◼   ► aka lonely sandwich on Twitter who day aka the guy behind the sandwich videos a

01:11:43 ◼   ► Friend of the show, you know the guy who got Ryan Star Wars

01:11:47 ◼   ► The last Jedi director Ryan Johnson on this show just a couple years ago to talk about his movie looper

01:11:55 ◼   ► Yeah, when are you gonna do something like that for me molt?

01:11:57 ◼   ► I would say dear dear friend of the show Adam Lee cigar

01:12:07 ◼   ► It said to me. Hey these two guys. I know these two guys. They're gonna make this documentary. I think their idea is great

01:12:13 ◼   ► They want to make an idea about the the app

01:12:15 ◼   ► Community the Apple developer community the indie community

01:12:20 ◼   ► They want to talk to you, you know, and I said well, you know what we could maybe do it on Tuesday

01:12:25 ◼   ► At

01:12:28 ◼   ► mezzanine where I had the live episode of the talk show, you know in the afternoon while I'm you know

01:12:34 ◼   ► Rather than just sit there and be nervous about the talk show. I could I could give them a half hour back

01:12:38 ◼   ► You know with me backstage

01:12:40 ◼   ► And of course I forgot about it. I said, yeah just send them over I

01:12:46 ◼   ► completely forgot about it and then it's like Tuesday and I'm there and they they they come by and

01:12:53 ◼   ► I'm like, oh, yeah, I forgot about that

01:12:56 ◼   ► You know what? Can we do this another day?

01:12:59 ◼   ► And they're like sure, you know and they're like, you know, they were like gonna be there all week

01:13:04 ◼   ► Where this is a trap I ever told you this story

01:13:09 ◼   ► So the only thing we had arranged for the show was and and I think this is the

01:13:16 ◼   ► You know was to record the audio, you know that there'd be a live show with you know

01:13:21 ◼   ► I don't know three four hundred people at the event

01:13:24 ◼   ► but then the only thing that everybody else would get would be the audio and

01:13:28 ◼   ► But they showed up with all these cameras and stuff to to to to record me and I said well

01:13:35 ◼   ► um, what what if what if I paid you guys to video the show and then we could have a video of the show and

01:13:41 ◼   ► They're like we could do that

01:13:43 ◼   ► We would like to do that and I was like you sure because I know I'm putting this to you like 90 minutes before

01:13:49 ◼   ► before the show starts

01:13:51 ◼   ► And and my wife is there with me and she's like John you cannot ask these guys to do this and I like well

01:13:57 ◼   ► if they want to do it and they're like, no, no, we want to do it and

01:14:00 ◼   ► And so they shot it they did and it was turned out terrific

01:14:04 ◼   ► And they shot the crowd at lining up outside the doors and they edited the whole thing together

01:14:10 ◼   ► So whatever I don't whatever year it was that they're the first ever video of the live talk show from WWDC

01:14:17 ◼   ► was

01:14:19 ◼   ► The year that this this happened and I got them to do it after meeting them 90 minutes before the show

01:14:25 ◼   ► And was that the first time Schiller was on I think I think it might be or

01:14:32 ◼   ► Think it might have or was it the year that the ATP guys were on you should know this

01:14:37 ◼   ► Well, I I should remember but I don't I

01:14:40 ◼   ► Remember the first time Schiller was on the show and I remember the time that the ATP guys were on the show

01:14:48 ◼   ► But I don't remember if it would years. Yeah

01:14:51 ◼   ► It was probably then it was probably the other way. It was probably the other way around ATP was probably first, right?

01:14:57 ◼   ► Yes, I don't think he was first ATP was the last episode the last live show

01:15:01 ◼   ► before

01:15:04 ◼   ► The one was Schiller

01:15:06 ◼   ► Yeah

01:15:07 ◼   ► Is there a video there might be a video now, there is no video. So I believe it was the episode with Schiller

01:15:13 ◼   ► Okay, okay

01:15:16 ◼   ► No, no video of the event is now available so no it was the ATP one in 2014

01:15:24 ◼   ► Yeah, I will put a link to that in the show notes

01:15:28 ◼   ► So the first one with video was the year before Phil Schiller's surprise

01:15:34 ◼   ► appearance. Yeah, yeah. I will send a link to you as well. But anyway, that's the story.

01:15:42 ◼   ► It was these guys. That's how long the movie's been in their works where they started shooting

01:15:47 ◼   ► the footage in June 2014. They assembled a bunch of the interviews from the movie come

01:15:54 ◼   ► from that June 2014. And here we are in by the time most of you listen to this December

01:16:02 ◼   ► of 2017, and the movie is finally done. But anyway, Jake and Jed are both great guys.

01:16:09 ◼   ► Jake has continued to spearhead the live video of the talk show ever since. He's including

01:16:18 ◼   ► this year's at the California Theater in San Jose. And he continues, he does a better

01:16:23 ◼   ► job every time. So I consider him a friend. He does terrific work. But I'm not telling

01:16:28 ◼   ► you to go spend 15 bucks at Vimeo on this movie just because he's my friend and he does

01:16:33 ◼   ► the live talk show. I'm saying that he does the live talk show because he's so good and

01:16:37 ◼   ► talented and this movie is the biggest thing he's ever done.

01:16:41 ◼   ► And it really is.

01:16:42 ◼   ► And also, yeah, like if you listen to this show, this is something that you're going

01:16:46 ◼   ► to be interested in.

01:16:47 ◼   ► Yep. And the fact that it costs, you know, if you're a Kickstarter backer, you get it

01:16:52 ◼   ► for free. I mean, you're already in. And if you're not, it's he's using Vimeo is on demand

01:16:59 ◼   ► service and you could get it for 15 bucks. And I realized that there's some people out

01:17:03 ◼   ► there who don't like to spend money on video that you'd, you know, you like to use the Netflix,

01:17:10 ◼   ► you like to pick up videos that fall off trucks, stuff like that. And I'm telling you, if there's

01:17:15 ◼   ► a movie where you were your $15 is really going to go to somebody who deserves it. This

01:17:21 ◼   ► is it." You know what I mean? If you're reluctant in general to spend $15 on a 90-minute

01:17:28 ◼   ► documentary or something, or any kind of movie, but you're thinking, "Hmm, maybe. I'm

01:17:34 ◼   ► telling you this is the one," because most of it's going to go to the team that made

01:17:39 ◼   ► the movie and they could use it. I don't think that the Kickstarter funds covered the

01:17:45 ◼   ► production of the movie.

01:17:47 ◼   ► And if you've watched a video of the talk show live, you already owe these guys like

01:17:52 ◼   ► a buck fifty.

01:17:53 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly. I would say that's actually true. So, you know, you probably only owe

01:17:56 ◼   ► them like nine bucks. So, go cough up the fifteen bucks. I'm telling you, it is well

01:18:00 ◼   ► worth it. The Vimeo on-demand thing is pretty cool. I think that's pretty cool that an

01:18:08 ◼   ► independent production like this can, you know, can—

01:18:11 ◼   ► You don't hear much about I mean Vimeo is not as big a name as other tech or you know

01:18:18 ◼   ► whatever you want to call them media sites that came out around the same time.

01:18:24 ◼   ► Right.

01:18:25 ◼   ► I mean maybe it's been around longer than Twitter I guess it probably has but

01:18:29 ◼   ► it it's still chugging along and seems to be doing well.

01:18:34 ◼   ► Well I think the better comparison always the better comparison is better than like YouTube.

01:18:39 ◼   ► Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's a lot of articles coming in. I've read some of these

01:18:44 ◼   ► articles about these things that are aimed at kids. It's unbelievable.

01:18:51 ◼   ► It's sick, right? Yeah. How would you even start to describe it?

01:18:58 ◼   ► Well, some of it's just like it's algorithmically generated. I think it's by accident. I mean,

01:19:07 ◼   ► is weird by accident. But then there's a lot of stuff that's just downright gross.

01:19:14 ◼   ► Well, and it starts with—

01:19:16 ◼   ► But is not—but doesn't catch the attention of their filtering system or process.

01:19:23 ◼   ► It starts with the fact that YouTube is very popular with toddlers. You could take any

01:19:30 ◼   ► tablet you want and set a toddler in front of it with YouTube and—

01:19:35 ◼   ► - They can watch video forever.

01:19:37 ◼   ► - Right, and so it's very popular.

01:19:42 ◼   ► It is, for a lot of people, most people,

01:19:45 ◼   ► many people, certainly many, many, many millions,

01:19:48 ◼   ► gazillions of people around the world,

01:19:50 ◼   ► it has replaced the idea of broadcast TV

01:19:54 ◼   ► as something that, even if you're being a responsible parent

01:19:57 ◼   ► and saying, "Oh, I'll let them watch video,"

01:19:58 ◼   ► and really put a time limit on it and say,

01:20:00 ◼   ► you know, here's, you know, you can have an hour of TV or 90 minutes of TV.

01:20:05 ◼   ► That TV now means a tablet and the tablet is probably running like

01:20:10 ◼   ► YouTube or, you know, well, YouTube or Netflix, I don't know. Um,

01:20:14 ◼   ► but stuff like that. So it's super popular.

01:20:17 ◼   ► And so there's money to be made from the ads. And like you said, it's,

01:20:22 ◼   ► it's like where there's money to be made, Algar, you know,

01:20:26 ◼   ► people and algorithms that are determining what is being shown next.

01:20:30 ◼   ► there are going to be people who try to exploit the algorithm

01:20:33 ◼   ► and they're doing it with like the weirdest videos

01:20:36 ◼   ► and not weird like they're showing inappropriate stuff

01:20:39 ◼   ► per se, but just stuff that is like mind numbing, right?

01:20:43 ◼   ► Like, you know, that you worry it's like sort of like

01:20:48 ◼   ► an infinite jest scenario, you know, where we're like,

01:20:51 ◼   ► oh my God, if your kid watches 10 minutes of this,

01:20:53 ◼   ► it's gonna, their brain's gonna turn to mashed potatoes.

01:20:56 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, that's not exactly the plot.

01:20:59 ◼   ► We had the banana splits, but the banana splits was only on for like 20 minutes or something,

01:21:06 ◼   ► right?

01:21:07 ◼   ► [laughter]

01:21:08 ◼   ► [music]

01:21:09 ◼   ► You're right. And the fact that it's infinite is, I don't know, it's worrisome. Anyway,

01:21:21 ◼   ► there's a link. There was a good post on Medium that delineated a whole bunch of this stuff.

01:21:27 ◼   ► It's just weird weird stuff. There was like and some of the stuff. It's not weird some of the stuff

01:21:31 ◼   ► That's like wow. They're really putting money into it. Did you did Hank when he was younger? Did he watch the Wiggles?

01:21:36 ◼   ► No, do you ever hear the Wiggles ever watch the Wiggles? I've heard of the Wiggles. Yes

01:21:41 ◼   ► There's like a new YouTube only is a goal

01:21:43 ◼   ► yeah, it was like it was like a show with these four guys and and

01:21:48 ◼   ► Jonas watched it somewhat. I mean, you know

01:21:54 ◼   ► They sort of had like Star Trek

01:21:56 ◼   ► Old-fashioned Star Trek jerseys on where the one guy always wear red red shirt a blue shirt a yellow shirt and a purple shirt

01:22:01 ◼   ► And like the purple shirt guy had like narcolepsy

01:22:04 ◼   ► It was like an Australian show but this they called the Wiggles and these four guys lived in a clubhouse and the

01:22:19 ◼   ► the guy who wore a purple shirt would just fall fall asleep at random time it was like the running

01:22:24 ◼   ► gag every episode is he he could just he would just fall asleep at a moment's notice and that was

01:22:30 ◼   ► treated as humorous i think it is humorous actually you know if you're gonna have you know

01:22:35 ◼   ► i i'm sure there's somebody out there listening who might suffer from narcolepsy and i'm not trying

01:22:39 ◼   ► to make fun of you but it was funny on the show anyway they'd always break into song and they'd

01:22:43 ◼   ► and they uh were fabulously popular and then they would tour we didn't jonas wasn't yeah they toured

01:22:49 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah, but they remember a friend a friend was like tweeting it like I'm at the wiggle show

01:22:53 ◼   ► Yeah, but they would get scared

01:22:55 ◼   ► But I I don't know if they still tore but they at least when Jonas was younger. They played like the big

01:23:00 ◼   ► 18,000 seat arenas, you know what I mean? Like the you know, like one week. It's Bruce Springsteen

01:23:06 ◼   ► It was think it was the Tacoma Dome here, which is not small. Wait one week at Springsteen and the next week. It's the wiggles

01:23:12 ◼   ► Yeah, right. Anyway, there's like a YouTube only wiggles

01:23:16 ◼   ► I'm not gonna call it a ripoff but it's like obviously the same sort of premise where there's like a regular cast and they

01:23:20 ◼   ► Sing a bunch of you know

01:23:23 ◼   ► Silly easily understood by toddler songs and stuff like that

01:23:26 ◼   ► Here let me do I got one last sponsor to thank

01:23:30 ◼   ► And it's it's a very near and dear friend to the show

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01:23:51 ◼   ► the family. They're really great products. And they're so easy to buy. You just go to

01:23:59 ◼   ► the website and you pick the one you want and the size you want and it shows up in a

01:24:04 ◼   ► I forget what they call it, but it's like a too good to be true box. Like you just cannot

01:24:10 ◼   ► believe that there's a mattress in this box. Like it's heavy enough that you think that

01:24:13 ◼   ► that could be a mattress, but it's, it's remarkable how small the boxes, it's because they, they,

01:24:17 ◼   ► they use the mattresses are made out of some kind of magical foam type stuff. So you take

01:24:22 ◼   ► the box, you take it to the bedroom where you're going to use it and you follow the

01:24:25 ◼   ► instructions on the box and then it sucks all the air out of the room. So you gotta

01:24:29 ◼   ► be careful cause it'll suck all the air out and it fills the mattress with air and then

01:24:33 ◼   ► it just grows from this thing. You're like, what have I done? You buy this thing and you're

01:24:37 ◼   ► like, what have I done? This cannot possibly be a mattress. And then it's a good use for

01:24:41 ◼   ► the SodaStream canisters.

01:24:42 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And then it sucks all the air out of the room and fills it fills

01:24:51 ◼   ► the mattress with the air in inside the foam and then all of a sudden you've got a mattress.

01:25:00 ◼   ► They've got they used to only have one kind and it's the original Casper mattress. That's

01:25:04 ◼   ► the one we have in the house. It's a terrific mattress. Really, really great. And they're

01:25:13 ◼   ► designed and made right here in the United States of America. They've literally got a

01:25:18 ◼   ► team of, it's not like a white label thing where Casper is buying these foam mattresses

01:25:24 ◼   ► from some no-name company elsewhere in the world and putting a Casper sticker on it.

01:25:28 ◼   ► They literally have like an engineering and design team making mattresses. I mean, they're

01:25:33 ◼   ► They're very serious about this.

01:25:35 ◼   ► And they do it right here in the United States.

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01:26:11 ◼   ► that $50 discount that's Casper.com/the talk show and code the talk show with the the I'm

01:26:20 ◼   ► glad they use the the because I paid good money for that to get 50 bucks towards any

01:26:25 ◼   ► mattress. Terms and conditions apply. I don't know what the terms and conditions are, but

01:26:30 ◼   ► there are terms and conditions apply to that deal. And so my thanks to Casper. Really,

01:26:38 ◼   ► it's a great product. I really recommend it. And I always want to emphasize this. If you're

01:26:43 ◼   ► the least bit reluctant to buy a mattress without actually trying it over the web, that

01:26:47 ◼   ► they have like a hundred day guaranteed thing where like you get like three months with

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01:26:55 ◼   ► send people to your house to just take it away and give you all your money back. So

01:27:00 ◼   ► you really can't lose. Can't lose. My thanks to Casper.

01:27:04 ◼   ► All right, we've got to wrap up. We're coming down the home stretch here. What else is there

01:27:09 ◼   ► on the agenda this week?

01:27:10 ◼   ► Do you want to talk about the guy who deleted Trump's account?

01:27:15 ◼   ► You know what? I'm glad that he got his time in the spotlight, but it wasn't that interesting

01:27:21 ◼   ► I think it's kind of risky of him to come out and--

01:27:24 ◼   ► A little bit.

01:27:25 ◼   ► Talk to people.

01:27:26 ◼   ► I guess though because he's now living in Germany, it's probably not. I don't really think--

01:27:30 ◼   ► Oh, okay. I didn't notice that part.

01:27:32 ◼   ► No, he's--

01:27:33 ◼   ► Then that's better.

01:27:35 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:27:36 ◼   ► Because I think a lot of people here would probably, you know, we have some-- we've

01:27:41 ◼   ► got some nut cases here.

01:27:42 ◼   ► Yeah, and who like to do nutty things.

01:27:46 ◼   ► Right.

01:27:49 ◼   ► People are nuts on both sides, though. Ben Thompson, friend of the show, had a piece

01:27:54 ◼   ► this week on his trajectory, did you see, about the net neutrality. And the gist of

01:27:59 ◼   ► his piece I thought was very persuasive. And it's not that net neutrality is a bad idea.

01:28:05 ◼   ► And as he said, almost nobody is opposed to the precepts of net neutrality. The argument

01:28:10 ◼   ► is whether the best way to enforce it here in the United States is specifically through

01:28:14 ◼   ► this Title II designation for these companies, it, you know, basically is the exact way that

01:28:23 ◼   ► the Obama administration had the FCC change some regulations the best way to do it. And

01:28:30 ◼   ► Ben made a case that no, it's not, you know, that, you know, more or less that you're regulating

01:28:36 ◼   ► about a bunch of what bad things that could happen as opposed to issuing regulations after

01:28:41 ◼   ► after actual bad things happen to solve them. You may disagree. I found it persuasive. It

01:28:49 ◼   ► made me think about changing my mind on this. And anyway, I do think it's important. I

01:28:54 ◼   ► think it's worthwhile to separate the concepts of net neutrality, the advantages of it, why

01:28:59 ◼   ► it's important, from the specific regulations, that they're not the same thing, that you

01:29:05 ◼   ► can be in favor of net neutrality but opposed to these specific regulations. Anyway, it

01:29:09 ◼   ► It was all very reasonable, as you might expect from Ben, who's a very reasonable person.

01:29:14 ◼   ► He sent me a bunch of the tweets he was getting, because eventually what happened was Ajit

01:29:19 ◼   ► Pai, the FCC commissioner, retweeted Ben's story.

01:29:24 ◼   ► Oh no.

01:29:26 ◼   ► Oh my god, Jon.

01:29:28 ◼   ► I mean, honestly, and you know that I've gotten caught up in some of this truly widespread

01:29:34 ◼   ► political stuff because there's an economist at MIT who's considered the architect of

01:29:39 ◼   ► Obamacare. His name is Jonathan Gruber. He's widely considered, and talk about the death

01:29:45 ◼   ► of expertise, he's gen, you know, by all accounts, he's an expert on healthcare legislation

01:29:52 ◼   ► around the world.

01:29:53 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:29:54 ◼   ► And helped set up the very successful decade-long Romneycare program in Massachusetts that was

01:30:01 ◼   ► the foundation for Obamacare. But his name is Jonathan Gruber. He does not, from what

01:30:08 ◼   ► I've seen have a Twitter presence. So a lot of people, whenever he's in the news,

01:30:14 ◼   ► assume that his Twitter account might be @Gruber, especially since if you check out @Gruber,

01:30:20 ◼   ► it's somebody named John Gruber. Close enough.

01:30:23 ◼   ► Right. And these people are not really necessarily the kinds that are going to go and do a lot

01:30:29 ◼   ► of work and figure out if something is correct in the first place.

01:30:31 ◼   ► Right. So I've gotten caught up in that, and I've gotten a lot of hateful stuff in

01:30:35 ◼   ► my Twitter replies from people who assume that I might be that John Jonathan Kruber,

01:30:41 ◼   ► I've, you know, my, you know, JHN, nobody who's a J as you well know, nobody who's a

01:30:45 ◼   ► JHN is a Jonathan. I mean, come on. Yeah, right. You might be a Jonathan and go by john,

01:30:51 ◼   ► but then you're one of the goofy jail jail. And right, which is, let's face it, goofy.

01:30:57 ◼   ► I mean, you know, there's other good lesser, lesser john, lesser john. I mean, you know,

01:31:02 ◼   ► I think we can all agree on that. I think even the John's, the J-O-N's agree that

01:31:08 ◼   ► they're the lesser John's.

01:31:09 ◼   ► [laughter]

01:31:10 ◼   ► I bet they don't. But okay. Let's just say that they do.

01:31:16 ◼   ► But I never got tweets like what Ben got this week from this. I mean, just the violent,

01:31:21 ◼   ► "I hope you die. I hope you die slowly." I mean, it's just crazy stuff. I mean, who

01:31:28 ◼   ► the hell would write something like that over a reason, you know, questioning the regulatory

01:31:34 ◼   ► structure of net neutrality and lead to people saying, "I hope you die."

01:31:38 ◼   ► Right.

01:31:39 ◼   ► Very strange stuff.

01:31:40 ◼   ► The only time I've never had it, I don't think I've ever had anybody threatened to

01:31:43 ◼   ► kill me.

01:31:44 ◼   ► I have not.

01:31:45 ◼   ► The only thing I can remember is some years ago when I wrote a crazy Apple rumor, it was

01:31:50 ◼   ► like it was when Gore got elected to the Apple board. And when Bush was president, and I

01:31:57 ◼   ► And I just wrote a stupid story saying that Bush demanded a recount of Gore's Apple

01:32:03 ◼   ► board election, which is, you know, mildly amusing at best.

01:32:07 ◼   ► And some guy sent me an email, we got into this back and forth, and he threatened to

01:32:14 ◼   ► punch me in the face.

01:32:15 ◼   ► That was some Bush supporter.

01:32:19 ◼   ► And you think, I'll bet at the time, you were like, "Wow, this guy, this is nuts."

01:32:22 ◼   ► And you probably showed it to your wife, and you're like, "This is nuts, right?

01:32:25 ◼   ► This is nuts."

01:32:26 ◼   ► In hindsight you think well that was reasonable political discourse

01:32:29 ◼   ► There two things now remember the good old days

01:32:33 ◼   ► Right that was chose a charming exchange we had

01:32:36 ◼   ► To such a witty repartee two fellow citizens could could have a reasonable discussion

01:32:43 ◼   ► And a threat to punch the other one in a face. That's all

01:32:47 ◼   ► Those really were the good old days. Oh well sure John with an H

01:32:55 ◼   ► John "H" For appearing on the show. Everybody can enjoy your work.

01:33:02 ◼   ► Well, you got podcasts. What do you want to pitch?

01:33:05 ◼   ► I've got Turning This Car Around podcast with a lesser John and this other guy. And then

01:33:14 ◼   ► The Rebound with Dan Warren and the same other guy.

01:33:19 ◼   ► Yeah, so that's a good one. Yeah, that's a good one.

01:33:21 ◼   ► There's still money in podcasting.

01:33:23 ◼   ► There's no money in blogging anymore. You took it all.

01:33:29 ◼   ► My thanks also to our three sponsors of this episode, Squarespace, Audible, and Casper.

01:33:35 ◼   ► My thanks to them. John, as always, it was a pleasure. Thank you.

01:33:39 ◼   ► [BLANK_AUDIO]