The Talk Show

00:00:00 ◼   ► René, it has been both a long week and a long day. Here we are recording at the end of the week,

00:00:10 ◼   ► at the end of August. And it was a very quiet week, as the end of August usually is

00:00:17 ◼   ► in the Apple News universe, until it wasn't. And 9to5Mac scored two blockbusters. They found,

00:00:26 ◼   ► They published two product marketing images from Apple, one showing the new high-end iPhones,

00:00:34 ◼   ► which they say also revealed will be called the iPhone 10S, spelled with a capital X like

00:00:43 ◼   ► the iPhone 10, and an S, which may or may not be uppercase or lowercase, and may or may not,

00:00:48 ◼   ► in Apple's usage, have a space between the X and the S. With a gold, almost certainly

00:00:56 ◼   ► stainless steel outer rim

00:00:58 ◼   ► And they also showed a new Apple watch which is extraordinary in several ways and then to me is a much bigger leak

00:01:05 ◼   ► Because it shows new hardware a definite new form factor

00:01:09 ◼   ► the much rumored larger display or at least

00:01:13 ◼   ► Larger as a percentage of the watch face display and a truly intriguing

00:01:19 ◼   ► New watch face which takes advantage of that bigger display and we will get to that eventually

00:01:26 ◼   ► But at the meta level, I want to start with this find, because I don't want to call

00:01:32 ◼   ► it a leak for reasons we'll get into.

00:01:34 ◼   ► It's truly extraordinary, if not unprecedented.

00:01:39 ◼   ► Tim Cynova Yeah, I mean, famously, Steve Stratton Smith

00:01:44 ◼   ► found firmware last year, right?

00:01:46 ◼   ► There was HomePod firmware put on a public directory instead of a private one, and then

00:01:50 ◼   ► the GM build for iOS 11 had imagery and nomenclature in there.

00:01:58 ◼   ► Yeah, so last year's leak, and again, part of what makes this extraordinary is that the

00:02:05 ◼   ► Apple world is filled with rumors and iPhone in particular just because the iPhone is the

00:02:11 ◼   ► most popular product and there because it's popular, it has the biggest ramp up in the

00:02:20 ◼   ► supply chain. So the supply chain is obviously a large source of Apple rumors and information.

00:02:28 ◼   ► A lot of it, you know, annually turns out to be accurate. A lot of it…

00:02:33 ◼   ► **Ezra Klein:** Bing-Chi Kuo just exfiltrates everything he can out of it.

00:02:36 ◼   ► **Beserat Debebe:** Right. And a lot of the stuff that turns out to be inaccurate is inaccurate

00:02:41 ◼   ► for the reason that the supply chain just wouldn't know. Like sometimes when they

00:02:45 ◼   ► say, oh, and we'll just specifically talk about the new high-end iPhones, which have

00:02:50 ◼   ► been rumored at least since January, I think, to be coming in two sizes, 5.8-inch diagonal,

00:02:56 ◼   ► which is exactly the same size as last year's iPhone X, and a new 6.5-inch OLED with a similar

00:03:04 ◼   ► size notch or similar proportion notch, same design, just bigger diagonally.

00:03:09 ◼   ► Like plus-sized. Right. But when the same type of supply chains come out with things that say

00:03:18 ◼   ► there's going to be a new thing and it's going to have a screen like this, like they have the screen

00:03:23 ◼   ► information because they're talking to the suppliers who are making the screens. But when

00:03:27 ◼   ► they say that this is going to ship or such and such product might be announced at WWDC in June,

00:03:33 ◼   ► or it's going to be a low-cost product or a high-cost product or something like that,

00:03:39 ◼   ► Those sort of things often prove to be incorrect because the supply chain doesn't know when

00:03:43 ◼   ► Apple's going to announce things and doesn't know how they're going to be priced.

00:03:50 ◼   ► Product names is another thing that the supply chain doesn't know about and is usually

00:03:55 ◼   ► a very well-guarded secret.

00:03:57 ◼   ► The leak you mentioned last year, one thing we didn't know last year going right, just

00:04:01 ◼   ► days in advance of the iPhone 10 announcement, we didn't know what Apple was going to call

00:04:05 ◼   ► the phone.

00:04:06 ◼   ► Nobody had a good guess.

00:04:09 ◼   ► I don't know that anybody guessed iPhone 10 with a capital X. I don't even recall

00:04:16 ◼   ► anybody guessing that. And that was revealed, as you said, through a leak of the iOS 11

00:04:23 ◼   ► GM build that Steven Trotton Smith found and had the cleverness to decompile and analyze

00:04:31 ◼   ► and find unique resources, including the string of the name. So that was the thing. The curious

00:04:36 ◼   ► thing about it is because we only had the string where it was iPhone space capital X,

00:04:42 ◼   ► we didn't know whether it was going to be pronounced X or 10. But we did have the name.

00:04:47 ◼   ► Dave: Like Final Cut Pro X or OS X because Apple goes both ways.

00:04:53 ◼   ► Dave They hurt them and their exes.

00:04:56 ◼   ► Dave So these images were found by probably the

00:05:00 ◼   ► only person in the world you could compare to Steven Croton Smith, Guillermo Rambo, a

00:05:05 ◼   ► very talented hacker who lives in Brazil, correct?

00:05:10 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:05:12 ◼   ► - And a 9to5Mac contributor.

00:05:16 ◼   ► They published two stories, one with the iPhone XS

00:05:21 ◼   ► revealing this image of two gold iPhones,

00:05:24 ◼   ► the smaller one on top of the larger one,

00:05:26 ◼   ► and said that the name would be iPhone XS.

00:05:32 ◼   ► I'll say XS just knowing that Apple,

00:05:35 ◼   ► if that's actually the name,

00:05:36 ◼   ► Apple's surely going to pronounce it 10S.

00:05:39 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:05:40 ◼   ► - And just at the meta level, this is extraordinary.

00:05:45 ◼   ► I can't remember, call it product marketing images

00:05:48 ◼   ► like this, product marketing images.

00:05:50 ◼   ► And again, this, you know, things like if somebody

00:05:52 ◼   ► on the supply chain snaps a photo of a pre-release photo

00:05:56 ◼   ► or image, which I think has happened before.

00:05:59 ◼   ► - Yeah, well, people famously either at stores

00:06:03 ◼   ► were a supply chain, they would take a shaky blurry cam photos that were never good looking

00:06:07 ◼   ► enough to really believe.

00:06:08 ◼   ► Right. Didn't the fat nano leak like that?

00:06:11 ◼   ► Yeah, well, Seth Weintraub famously, 9to5Mac, I think that was one of their big initial

00:06:14 ◼   ► scoops was an actual marketing image of the fatty nano.

00:06:17 ◼   ► Oh, it was a marketing image. That wasn't a supply chain.

00:06:19 ◼   ► And I think Apple cease and desisted it back then.

00:06:23 ◼   ► But these are definite products. I mean, I'm sure everybody listening has seen them. And

00:06:26 ◼   ► I'll put these in the show notes and I'll do the fancy thing where if you look down

00:06:30 ◼   ► your podcast player now will change the album art for this episode to show you the images as we're

00:06:34 ◼   ► talking about them. These are the images you would see on stage or like Apple's newsroom would have

00:06:42 ◼   ► embedded in the press release, right? Like this is the hero shot and yes that they as they would

00:06:47 ◼   ► call it of these these two products. And that just sort of thing we just don't I can't recall

00:06:55 ◼   ► something like that leaking in a lot or at least in a long time, like you said, like the fat nano

00:07:00 ◼   ► leaked, but it's been a long time and I can't remember it for an iPhone. So presumably,

00:07:06 ◼   ► this just addresses at the meta level. I am certain that this was not leaked by a rogue

00:07:13 ◼   ► Apple employee to Guy Rambo. I believe that he found these exposed somewhere on the internet

00:07:21 ◼   ► on a public-facing URL. I'm not quite sure exactly how. And I think it's—

00:07:27 ◼   ► Well, he was tweeting at the same time that he was watching a test of rare broadcast for

00:07:32 ◼   ► coming up with broadcasting tests for the event coming up. Yeah, I'm saying like, yeah,

00:07:36 ◼   ► airpower images.

00:07:39 ◼   ► But that was it. That's a red herring. He so he was tweeting that I, I would guess he's

00:07:44 ◼   ► got a lot of things going on at the same time that he's very talented multitasker. But that

00:07:48 ◼   ► led a lot of people to speculate or just jump to the conclusion that this video test stream

00:07:54 ◼   ► URL that he was looking at and scrubbing through was the source of these images.

00:07:59 ◼   ► Yeah, but they don't be marketing images.

00:08:01 ◼   ► No, you don't. And it wouldn't explain that certainly wouldn't explain why there

00:08:06 ◼   ► were only two. Like if if, you know, and that's he had the airpower shot because they were

00:08:11 ◼   ► just the test stream was showing things from the last year's keynote where where the

00:08:18 ◼   ► airpower was shown. So that was a red herring. That's not where he got these from. It just

00:08:24 ◼   ► happened to be the same day that he uncovered these images.

00:08:28 ◼   ► And it is a bit funny, I don't know if it's a coincidence

00:08:31 ◼   ► or not, but on the same day, at 9 a.m. Pacific,

00:08:35 ◼   ► Apple sent out the invitations to the press event,

00:08:37 ◼   ► which we know will be Wednesday, September 12th,

00:08:39 ◼   ► as you predicted first, and as I concurred with your logic,

00:08:44 ◼   ► that they wouldn't do it this week, Labor Day week.

00:08:48 ◼   ► They wouldn't do it on, they like to,

00:08:52 ◼   ► They do always like to do Tuesdays or Wednesdays.

00:08:55 ◼   ► And the Tuesday is September 11th, which as you well put,

00:08:59 ◼   ► it's akin to a Memorial Day,

00:09:01 ◼   ► which is the best way to just say,

00:09:04 ◼   ► why would you do that?

00:09:06 ◼   ► So Wednesday the 12th seemed like

00:09:09 ◼   ► it was a very obvious choice

00:09:10 ◼   ► and it turns out to be correct.

00:09:11 ◼   ► So anyway, within I would think of about three hours

00:09:13 ◼   ► after Apple sent that out,

00:09:14 ◼   ► which makes enough news for a sleepy August week,

00:09:18 ◼   ► these images came out.

00:09:19 ◼   ► I'm guessing that was a coincidence.

00:09:21 ◼   ► I can't imagine why Apple sending out invitations to the event would coincide with someone in

00:09:27 ◼   ► Apple's Markham team inadvertently putting these two images somewhere where they shouldn't

00:09:31 ◼   ► have been exposed.

00:09:32 ◼   ► Peter: You mean like you found the URL for the Apple Park ring logo and started putting

00:09:37 ◼   ► another flag on it?

00:09:38 ◼   ► Steve: Yeah, I don't think that's what happened.

00:09:39 ◼   ► I don't think they were there.

00:09:40 ◼   ► Peter; Oh, we should also say like a lot of people were really confused by the invitation

00:09:43 ◼   ► and thought maybe it was a camera or a round watch, but that's the Apple Park logo.

00:09:47 ◼   ► It's the same one you see on t-shirts and other Apple products. Yeah, what was the other one?

00:09:53 ◼   ► So that the invitation, you know, the the Apple Kremlin ology of you know, analyzing the it was like I

00:09:59 ◼   ► Also forget the exact words. It was like gather round. All right, come on gather round. Yeah

00:10:05 ◼   ► Yeah it I guess because I've been to Apple Park and I've seen the t-shirts that they sell that I did I've

00:10:14 ◼   ► Instantly recognize that as the the logo mark that they use to represent Apple Park as a campus

00:10:20 ◼   ► But I got inundated with people speculating that it would that it meant that there the new Apple watch was going to be round

00:10:28 ◼   ► Yeah, no

00:10:30 ◼   ► Well

00:10:33 ◼   ► You sadly I I would be sure I don't want around Apple watch

00:10:37 ◼   ► But it would be it would be intriguing and different and spur a ton of stories, right?

00:10:41 ◼   ► or I guess I guess what you meant by sadly is it would certainly make for a more in

00:10:44 ◼   ► Interesting interpretation of the yes invitation then simply here's where the event is going to be. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I get it. I get it now

00:10:52 ◼   ► When we talk about the Apple watch the new Apple watch we can talk

00:10:55 ◼   ► Let's let's table that see if you can remember this to talk about why?

00:10:59 ◼   ► They don't make around it. Watch. Yes

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00:13:31 ◼   ► I still think, at the meta level,

00:13:32 ◼   ► I think it's so damn curious that he got two and only two,

00:13:35 ◼   ► and they are both intriguing, but there was no more,

00:13:38 ◼   ► and surely there is a lot more to be shown and seen.

00:13:43 ◼   ► - Yeah, absolutely.

00:13:44 ◼   ► And the ones he did get are interesting.

00:13:47 ◼   ► The iPhone one, it looks very similar

00:13:48 ◼   ► to previous iPhone X and iPhone artwork.

00:13:51 ◼   ► Apple likes that angle, they like that style,

00:13:53 ◼   ► But it's got these images of planets on it

00:13:56 ◼   ► that just make it look almost like a humpback whale

00:13:58 ◼   ► or a lava lamp that's been squashed down or something.

00:14:01 ◼   ► - Yeah, my first look at this when the news broke,

00:14:04 ◼   ► I was very confused at first

00:14:07 ◼   ► 'cause I was looking at it on my iPhone.

00:14:08 ◼   ► And on the iPhone, because they show this sort of,

00:14:13 ◼   ► I don't know if that's Mars or some other--

00:14:16 ◼   ► - Jupiter, I don't know.

00:14:17 ◼   ► - I guess it's Mars, but I don't know.

00:14:19 ◼   ► But it's some kind of Mars-like planet.

00:14:22 ◼   ► Maybe it's Mercury, maybe it's just some science fiction planet that they've rendered,

00:14:26 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:14:27 ◼   ► But it's some kind of planet shown where you only see sort of a crescent slice of it

00:14:34 ◼   ► that the angle that they show it as, it's just a wallpaper, but at first look it looks

00:14:39 ◼   ► like a bulbous, you know, like a 3GS style humpback as opposed to a flat phone.

00:14:46 ◼   ► And it's like, "What?

00:14:47 ◼   ► That can't be."

00:14:48 ◼   ► But then once you really figure out,

00:14:50 ◼   ► you see exactly what's going on.

00:14:52 ◼   ► - It was that and the actual yellow gold,

00:14:55 ◼   ► like gold coin gold on the sides that caught my attention

00:14:58 ◼   ► because Apple did champagne gold first with the 5S

00:15:02 ◼   ► and then rose gold, the iPhone 8 gold version

00:15:04 ◼   ► is actually like a copper rose gold,

00:15:06 ◼   ► but this is gold gold.

00:15:07 ◼   ► - Right.

00:15:08 ◼   ► And so that's, you know,

00:15:11 ◼   ► so the biggest leak iPhone wise

00:15:16 ◼   ► that was revealed by this scoop by Guillermo Rambo

00:15:21 ◼   ► for 9to5Mac, it was the name in my opinion.

00:15:24 ◼   ► And I would say the second biggest

00:15:26 ◼   ► is the nature of the gold, like what type of gold.

00:15:30 ◼   ► Because the supply chain links from months,

00:15:33 ◼   ► almost the entire year, have indicated

00:15:36 ◼   ► that there were gonna be two sizes

00:15:38 ◼   ► of the iPhone X's successor.

00:15:40 ◼   ► And one of the things that was misinterpreted

00:15:44 ◼   ► so stupidly and parroted was the fact that out of the supply chain came the, to me, unsurprising

00:15:51 ◼   ► news that the iPhone 10, the one we know from last year, was going to be stopped in production.

00:15:59 ◼   ► And the idea is it's just that come the end of September, when the new iPhones are out,

00:16:06 ◼   ► you'll be able to fly these two new iPhone XS models. There's going to be a new

00:16:13 ◼   ► which we can talk about in a bit, un-leaked by a 9-to-5 Mac, a 6.5-inch or 6.1-inch, I'm

00:16:22 ◼   ► sorry, diagonal, about seemingly halfway between the two sizes of the iPhone XS with an LCD screen,

00:16:29 ◼   ► but with the iPhone X basic form factor of no home button and a front-facing sensor array,

00:16:40 ◼   ► a.k.a. Notch, and a corner-to-corner round-wreck design, etc., etc.

00:16:44 ◼   ► Right. It's a replay of the 2013 playbook where they end of life the iPhone 5 and replaced

00:16:50 ◼   ► it with the 5s and the 5c.

00:16:52 ◼   ► Exactly. That's their strategy. But it was grossly, I believe, willfully misinterpreted.

00:16:57 ◼   ► Yeah, Forbes made it sound like they were going to come to your house and stake away

00:17:00 ◼   ► your existing iPhone X.

00:17:02 ◼   ► Right. And that they were abandoning the basic idea.

00:17:04 ◼   ► They were killing it.

00:17:05 ◼   ► Right.

00:17:06 ◼   ► It was a failure and it was being killed.

00:17:07 ◼   ► it's a failure, it's being killed.

00:17:09 ◼   ► But that leaked from the supply chain.

00:17:10 ◼   ► I believe it's unsurprising given the nature

00:17:13 ◼   ► of the iPhone 10, but it's not just going to hang around

00:17:15 ◼   ► at a lower price point as they've done most years.

00:17:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's too expensive to make.

00:17:19 ◼   ► I mean, if you look at it, the,

00:17:20 ◼   ► well, I mean, like the OLED screen,

00:17:22 ◼   ► Samsung charges a fortune for those screens.

00:17:24 ◼   ► And if you wanna price it down at a normal iPhone level,

00:17:27 ◼   ► saving some money and going LCD and a few other,

00:17:29 ◼   ► and aluminum, I think is a really good strategy.

00:17:32 ◼   ► - Yeah, but we knew that.

00:17:35 ◼   ► I say new knowing that we didn't know no, you know, the way that like, let's say, Tim Cook knew,

00:17:42 ◼   ► right? That Jeff Williams knows, you know, that Phil Schiller knows.

00:17:49 ◼   ► Johnny might have a clue. Yeah.

00:17:51 ◼   ► Right. Johnny might have a clue as to what is really coming. But we on the outside following

00:17:56 ◼   ► the rumors could be, could reasonably wager a very large sum of money that they were coming out. They

00:18:04 ◼   ► They were doing away with the iPhone,

00:18:06 ◼   ► last year's iPhone 10, replacing it with an updated,

00:18:09 ◼   ► exact same size 5.8-inch diagonal OLED.

00:18:14 ◼   ► A big brother, plus-sized, if you will,

00:18:18 ◼   ► 6.5-inch version of the same design.

00:18:21 ◼   ► And the gold, quote-unquote, gold stainless steel rim

00:18:29 ◼   ► was also leaked.

00:18:32 ◼   ► And I believe this was something

00:18:33 ◼   ► it was rumored for the original iPhone X, is that right?

00:18:36 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, there was rumored to,

00:18:37 ◼   ► I think they even put it through FCC clearance,

00:18:39 ◼   ► the gold version, and there was a bunch of stories

00:18:42 ◼   ► that either, 'cause you can't anodize stainless steel

00:18:46 ◼   ► the way you can aluminum, that's why the Apple Watch

00:18:48 ◼   ► has a DLC, a diamond-like carbon coating,

00:18:51 ◼   ► and that's a form of vapor coating,

00:18:53 ◼   ► and you can vapor coat in gold, but it's trickier.

00:18:56 ◼   ► And some people are saying it just took too long

00:18:59 ◼   ► to do it, or it didn't look up to Apple standards,

00:19:02 ◼   ► But traditionally Apple has saved the new colors

00:19:04 ◼   ► for the S years where the design is the same,

00:19:06 ◼   ► but they wanna, you know,

00:19:07 ◼   ► humans will treat a new color like a new design anyway,

00:19:09 ◼   ► so it gets a lot more attention if they have the new design,

00:19:12 ◼   ► the new colors.

00:19:13 ◼   ► - Yeah, I can't help but think

00:19:15 ◼   ► that that must have played part of it,

00:19:17 ◼   ► that maybe it was the trickier color,

00:19:19 ◼   ► maybe they kinda were thinking about doing it last year,

00:19:21 ◼   ► but I can't help but think that maybe it was also strategy,

00:19:24 ◼   ► 'cause they obviously knew.

00:19:25 ◼   ► I mean, the pipeline is at least two years long on iPhones.

00:19:29 ◼   ► And so at some point, when they were completely finalizing

00:19:34 ◼   ► the exact plans for the iPhone X,

00:19:36 ◼   ► they already knew that the next year's phones,

00:19:39 ◼   ► to replace it, would be the XS in these two sizes.

00:19:44 ◼   ► And strategically, I can't help but think

00:19:45 ◼   ► that they might have wanted to hold gold for that

00:19:48 ◼   ► so that there would be a version of it

00:19:51 ◼   ► that was instantly recognizable as brand new.

00:19:54 ◼   ► - Yeah, because people want other people

00:19:56 ◼   ► to know they have the new iPhone.

00:19:58 ◼   ► We're kind of vain that way.

00:20:00 ◼   ► - It definitely drives sales for some people

00:20:02 ◼   ► who are thinking that, and then I think the other factor

00:20:04 ◼   ► is advertising, that it gives them an iPhone XS

00:20:09 ◼   ► to photograph and put on billboards and put in commercials

00:20:15 ◼   ► and put in full-page magazine ads

00:20:18 ◼   ► that's instantly recognizable as new,

00:20:20 ◼   ► both from the original iPhone X and now,

00:20:23 ◼   ► in terms of having a color that we've never seen

00:20:25 ◼   ► in an iPhone before.

00:20:27 ◼   ► Yeah, absolutely. It's like a win-win.

00:20:30 ◼   ► Yeah. So Apple's history with gold-colored metals, on the iPhone side, they've had

00:20:37 ◼   ► the anodized gold and rose gold. The Apple Watch has the same two shades, gold and rose

00:20:43 ◼   ► gold, although the original Apple Watch didn't have a gold aluminum one.

00:20:47 ◼   ► Yes. It was real gold, and then I think six months later, the rose gold and gold aluminum

00:20:53 ◼   ► came out.

00:20:54 ◼   ► - That's right, it was, yeah, that's right.

00:20:56 ◼   ► They came out with them at the, like in September.

00:20:58 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:20:59 ◼   ► - 'Cause they didn't come out,

00:21:01 ◼   ► like so September of whatever year,

00:21:04 ◼   ► they announced the Apple Watch.

00:21:06 ◼   ► - Yes. - And so it'll ship

00:21:07 ◼   ► next year.

00:21:08 ◼   ► It shipped around April, did not have gold.

00:21:11 ◼   ► And then come that next September,

00:21:13 ◼   ► they had no new Apple Watch to announce,

00:21:15 ◼   ► 'cause they'd only shipped the original one

00:21:18 ◼   ► five to six months prior.

00:21:19 ◼   ► But by having the gold aluminum ones,

00:21:22 ◼   ► as they called them at the time, the sport models, they did have something new to show.

00:21:29 ◼   ► But the gold that we see here is visually akin to the true gold of the original Apple

00:21:39 ◼   ► Watch edition, right? It is gold, shiny gold, gold.

00:21:43 ◼   ► Steven: That's what every Bruins fan has been waiting for.

00:21:46 ◼   ► - Right, 'cause the big, it is different,

00:21:48 ◼   ► because with this edge-to-edge design,

00:21:50 ◼   ► there's no room for white on the front face.

00:21:53 ◼   ► All the previous gold iPhones have had white front faces.

00:21:57 ◼   ► And I've always thought black would be an interesting look,

00:21:59 ◼   ► even with the subdued gold of anodized aluminum

00:22:03 ◼   ► as opposed to this.

00:22:04 ◼   ► I just think black and gold is a good combination.

00:22:07 ◼   ► You see sports teams everywhere,

00:22:10 ◼   ► the Pittsburgh Steelers, the Boston Bruins.

00:22:12 ◼   ► It's a good look.

00:22:15 ◼   ► And I think with this, I can't imagine

00:22:17 ◼   ► that they've ever even considered making the notch white.

00:22:21 ◼   ► It just wouldn't look right because it just ruins,

00:22:25 ◼   ► having that black bezel is what gives you the illusion

00:22:28 ◼   ► of an edge-to-edge screen.

00:22:29 ◼   ► - Yeah, some people have mocked it up

00:22:30 ◼   ► and it just, it looks wrong.

00:22:32 ◼   ► - Yeah, it really isn't supposed to,

00:22:36 ◼   ► like the whole idea of the iPhone X appearance

00:22:38 ◼   ► is notch aside, it's supposed to create the illusion

00:22:41 ◼   ► of a truly edge-to-edge screen.

00:22:42 ◼   ► And it's not, there is a bezel.

00:22:45 ◼   ► and we can get into bezel wars with other companies

00:22:48 ◼   ► and find Android phones with even narrower bezels,

00:22:52 ◼   ► at least on the sides.

00:22:53 ◼   ► But it's, you know, basically this entire,

00:22:58 ◼   ► the entire industry is moving to this look

00:22:59 ◼   ► of an edge-to-edge appearance,

00:23:02 ◼   ► and you can only do that with black.

00:23:04 ◼   ► - Even in this marketing image with the planet on it,

00:23:06 ◼   ► you don't see the notch at all.

00:23:07 ◼   ► It just looks like a giant black expanse.

00:23:09 ◼   ► - Right.

00:23:10 ◼   ► Yeah, and I can't help but think that's one of the reasons

00:23:13 ◼   ► they chose a wallpaper like that is that the notch is no longer novel, so they don't

00:23:18 ◼   ► need to emphasize it in the way they did last year. I believe, originally, almost, I think

00:23:24 ◼   ► every single product marketing image they showed of the iPhone X at the keynote last

00:23:27 ◼   ► year included the notch. It was sort of part of a clear but unspoken strategy of embracing

00:23:37 ◼   ► the notch, that we're not going to try to hide this in any way. And it would be easy,

00:23:41 ◼   ► this wallpaper shows. It's easy to use a wallpaper that's either black or mostly black to create

00:23:47 ◼   ► images that don't emphasize it. I remember specifically vividly that even when they showed

00:23:53 ◼   ► video playing on the iPhone 10 during the keynote, it was always zoomed in to the maximum

00:24:00 ◼   ► scale and therefore always showing the notch overlaying part of the video, which gave me

00:24:07 ◼   ► the vague fear. I thought, "I'm going to guess that's not the default." I'm going

00:24:12 ◼   ► to guess, A, that you can double tap that to go to a "Keep the correct aspect ratio

00:24:17 ◼   ► and put black bars on the side," which would happen to hide the notch. And further, I'm

00:24:23 ◼   ► going to guess that preserving the proper aspect ratio is the default, but now I'm

00:24:29 ◼   ► worried. And it was one of my first things I tested when we got to the hand-on area was,

00:24:34 ◼   ► How does video playback work?

00:24:36 ◼   ► But I think the fact that that's how they showed video playback

00:24:38 ◼   ► in the keynote was just part of their strategy of we are not going to hide

00:24:41 ◼   ► this notch, even when we show things like video playback.

00:24:44 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:24:45 ◼   ► So on this image, so all we have, we have the image, we have the name

00:24:51 ◼   ► and the name, I believe was was taken, you know, that Rambo and nine to five Mac.

00:24:58 ◼   ► I believe they got it from the file name of the image that they found.

00:25:03 ◼   ► Yeah, which is why there's no indication of capitalization for this.

00:25:06 ◼   ► Although it is a little curious if you know that they don't know if there's a space between the

00:25:13 ◼   ► X and the S. Although I suppose if the file name wasn't had no spaces or underscores or dashes

00:25:18 ◼   ► period, if it was just I P H O N E X S. It's possible, you know, I guess I would see that

00:25:26 ◼   ► and say, I don't know. I have no, you know, I wouldn't know where that space is either. Yeah.

00:25:31 ◼   ► I'm skipping around a little between the meta aspects and the details of this, but

00:25:41 ◼   ► I just want to emphasize, because so many people have—I just want to try to put this

00:25:46 ◼   ► to rest as best I can, even though it seems impossible. I just want to put to rest the

00:25:51 ◼   ► notion that this was a "controlled or deliberate leak" from Apple. Which, I know, I'm

00:26:00 ◼   ► and I don't want to laugh at the notion because of any company in general, any company, period,

00:26:07 ◼   ► that's a possible strategy. It is in the specific case of Apple as a company and the iPhone and a

00:26:17 ◼   ► new industrial design for Apple Watch in particular is something that nobody at the company would ever

00:26:22 ◼   ► even it wouldn't even cross their mind. Yeah, I mean, it's almost all the time when you see

00:26:29 ◼   ► something like this, you see someone's, oh, Apple's just leaking it to set expectations, which is

00:26:33 ◼   ► never the case. Right. They have and they truly and deeply want the surprise of revealing

00:26:43 ◼   ► every single aspect that's new of these products, they would like to keep as under wraps as possible

00:26:49 ◼   ► until it's unveiled in exactly the way that they want it to be unveiled.

00:26:53 ◼   ► Right. It's like surprise and delight is their mantra. And they get,

00:26:57 ◼   ► it's also a good business sense because they get so much marketing, free publicity

00:27:01 ◼   ► out of the shock and awe of a reveal that anything that takes away from that

00:27:06 ◼   ► literally costs them money. Right. And no offense to 9to5Mac or Guillermo,

00:27:10 ◼   ► but even if they did lose their mind and were going to leak it, they wouldn't leak it to 9to5Mac.

00:27:18 ◼   ► Yeah, it would be like the Wall Street Journal or all things. What is it called? Pachowski

00:27:22 ◼   ► at Recode or gas, but I just it would still be so shocking. I know, you know, I can't even imagine

00:27:28 ◼   ► if if somebody you know, like if jaws came in, like who would do the leaking even like,

00:27:37 ◼   ► like if jaws came into somebody's office and said, Hey, close the door. Here's what I want you to do.

00:27:44 ◼   ► I want you to take these two images.

00:27:46 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:27:48 ◼   ► There's two of the slides.

00:27:48 ◼   ► - He's in a trench coat, he's got a hat on.

00:27:50 ◼   ► - We've got two of these slides from the keynote

00:27:53 ◼   ► and we just can't wait to show them.

00:27:56 ◼   ► So Phil and I were talking, we wanna get them out.

00:27:59 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:28:00 ◼   ► Can you send these to, let's send them to 9to5Mac

00:28:04 ◼   ► and get people excited for the iPhone.

00:28:08 ◼   ► If somebody, if JAWS came in and said that to somebody,

00:28:11 ◼   ► that person would think that they,

00:28:13 ◼   ► that Jaws had lost his mind.

00:28:15 ◼   ► Like they wouldn't do it.

00:28:17 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:28:20 ◼   ► It's almost like,

00:28:21 ◼   ► like if he came in and handed him a gun and said,

00:28:27 ◼   ► "I want you to shoot me in the leg."

00:28:28 ◼   ► You know, like you wouldn't do it.

00:28:32 ◼   ► It's just so out of character for Apple.

00:28:34 ◼   ► And I can't, and I try not to debate it too much on Twitter,

00:28:38 ◼   ► but I think I said to somebody,

00:28:40 ◼   ► something to the effect of even if they were going to leak it, which they never ever would,

00:28:44 ◼   ► it wouldn't go to nine to five Mac. And then like the response was, no, that's exactly

00:28:48 ◼   ► why it went to nine and five Mac because they don't, you know, nobody believe it, right?

00:28:52 ◼   ► Nobody would believe it. That of course they leaked it to Guillermo Rambo because then

00:28:56 ◼   ► everybody will think he found it because you know, he's the sort of person who could find

00:29:01 ◼   ► it and therefore that's also proud. I don't think he'd ever turn out, you know, work that

00:29:05 ◼   ► he didn't earn. Right. But that's, you know, the basic thinking behind that, the theory

00:29:10 ◼   ► that it's a deliberate leak and why it went to gear mo Rambo at 9 to 5 Mac was that Apple

00:29:15 ◼   ► didn't want it to look like a leak and you know a purposeful leak and all I all I can

00:29:21 ◼   ► say is they would never do that I think knowing I don't know a lot of the behind the scenes

00:29:27 ◼   ► reaction at Apple to this leak but I know the little that I do know is that it was deeply

00:29:35 ◼   ► upsetting

00:29:36 ◼   ► - Yeah, oh, yo, absolutely.

00:29:38 ◼   ► I think that was probably one of the,

00:29:40 ◼   ► there's nothing that those teams who work on this,

00:29:42 ◼   ► everybody from marketing and PR to hardware

00:29:45 ◼   ► and software engineering loves more than the big reveal.

00:29:48 ◼   ► And anytime, it's sort of like the script for "Star Wars"

00:29:51 ◼   ► being leaked and everybody reading it online.

00:29:53 ◼   ► 'Cause they also now have to deal with people going there

00:29:55 ◼   ► and going, "Oh, this is boring.

00:29:56 ◼   ► "I've already seen this.

00:29:57 ◼   ► "Why isn't Apple surprising us anymore?"

00:30:00 ◼   ► And it's like, "Dude, you read the "Star Wars" script

00:30:02 ◼   ► "before you went to see the movie.

00:30:04 ◼   ► "You can do that, but then you can't claim

00:30:06 ◼   ► that you're not being surprised.

00:30:07 ◼   ► Right.

00:30:08 ◼   ► And on the other aspect of this that I've seen, that is the argument of, well, if they

00:30:15 ◼   ► really don't want these things to leak, then how does it keep happening?

00:30:20 ◼   ► You know, that how can a company of Apple's resources and talent not be, you know, keep

00:30:25 ◼   ► having these leaks?

00:30:28 ◼   ► And I can't explain it, but each one seems to be a different mistake.

00:30:33 ◼   ► It's the fact that people are imperfect.

00:30:37 ◼   ► - And we should also point out

00:30:40 ◼   ► that almost everybody is looking,

00:30:42 ◼   ► and I know this is harder for people

00:30:44 ◼   ► in the Apple community to understand,

00:30:45 ◼   ► but if you go towards the bigger phone and gadget market,

00:30:48 ◼   ► there are literally Twitter accounts and websites

00:30:50 ◼   ► that all they do is leak renders and carrier photos

00:30:54 ◼   ► and engineering shots of every single new Android phone

00:30:56 ◼   ► that's coming out all the time.

00:30:59 ◼   ► - And there's not, it speaks to Guillermo Rambo

00:31:02 ◼   ► and Steve Troughton Smith's extraordinary talent

00:31:06 ◼   ► as people who, as being able to find these things

00:31:09 ◼   ► and know how to exploit them,

00:31:12 ◼   ► expose them once they've been identified,

00:31:14 ◼   ► that it's almost like,

00:31:16 ◼   ► number one, there's only those two guys, really.

00:31:20 ◼   ► I mean, there might be others,

00:31:21 ◼   ► but they're still haven't found,

00:31:23 ◼   ► might be other people trying,

00:31:24 ◼   ► dozens, hundreds of people trying the same thing,

00:31:26 ◼   ► but they never seem to come up with anything.

00:31:29 ◼   ► But it's almost like they're so good

00:31:31 ◼   ► that it is like water finding a leak in a bowl.

00:31:35 ◼   ► Like if there's one tiny crack anywhere

00:31:38 ◼   ► in the entire process of keeping GM builds of the OS secret

00:31:43 ◼   ► and product marketing images secret

00:31:46 ◼   ► and their webpages and everything else,

00:31:48 ◼   ► every single thing that they need to protect

00:31:51 ◼   ► until they're ready to unveil it on stage,

00:31:54 ◼   ► the tiniest pinprick in that process,

00:31:58 ◼   ► Seems likely to be exposed by one or the other or both of

00:32:02 ◼   ► ghee and Steve because they're so good like all it takes is one mistake and

00:32:06 ◼   ► It boom it's out there sometimes

00:32:09 ◼   ► It's not even a mistake like the with supply almost everybody else at least I think everybody else gets information from the supply chain

00:32:14 ◼   ► Because there's just so much money involved in casemakers and everybody are throwing so much money around

00:32:19 ◼   ► That inevitably that stuff gets out because they want to be able to have cases ready

00:32:22 ◼   ► Because Apple won't tell them what the new phone is

00:32:25 ◼   ► So they're desperate to get their cases ready and sold on time because it's millions and millions of dollars

00:32:30 ◼   ► So that stuff gets out but with this stuff sometimes it's just that you know

00:32:34 ◼   ► The carriers have to test it and if they lock it up too hard

00:32:36 ◼   ► The carriers can't figure out how to get to it and there's all these people have to do validation and there's there's so many things

00:32:42 ◼   ► That go into an iPhone launch that it probably is possible to lock every bit down

00:32:47 ◼   ► But it's probably not possible to do it all the time

00:32:49 ◼   ► There's just so many chances for obscurity security by obscurity failing or just something going wrong

00:32:55 ◼   ► Yeah, I totally agree. All right, let's take a break and I'm gonna thank our first sponsor

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00:35:43 ◼   ► All right, one more thing about this iPhone, well, maybe a little bit more than one more

00:35:48 ◼   ► thing about the iPhone XS, but one that we don't have…

00:35:50 ◼   ► JASON ZWEIGEL: Oh, just hearing you say it, XS.

00:35:52 ◼   ► Well, that's so the name is a little surprising to me. So Jason Snell and I in the last episode

00:36:03 ◼   ► of this show spent some time guessing iPhone names and I had a draft piece that I just kept

00:36:08 ◼   ► revising and revising that I didn't publish but was on the cusp of publishing last week when

00:36:13 ◼   ► this broke my guesses for the name and the idea that they would just add an S at the end which

00:36:20 ◼   ► they've done with the iPhone three g to three GS the iPhone four to the four s the five to the five

00:36:26 ◼   ► s and six to the success but haven't done since the six s I know I spent very little time in the

00:36:33 ◼   ► piece even considering it I addressed it and said it's you know it they've done it before but a they

00:36:40 ◼   ► They haven't done it since the 6S and I believe the iPhone 6 was the I think maybe the best

00:36:50 ◼   ► selling iPhone ever.

00:36:52 ◼   ► It certainly was like at the peak of iPhone sales and it far exceeded it wasn't just the

00:36:57 ◼   ► most popular it exceeded Apple's expectations and that was the one that it was out of.

00:37:02 ◼   ► It was back ordered for the longest period of time.

00:37:05 ◼   ► It was the first quote unquote super cycle because it pulled people into upgrading earlier

00:37:09 ◼   ► just to get the bigger devices.

00:37:11 ◼   ► Yeah, it was just bigger in every it was, I think I knew it was going to be big, but

00:37:16 ◼   ► it exceeded their expectations. It took them many more months than usual to, to, you know,

00:37:21 ◼   ► to get it to like next day ordering. And then the six S was the other way. It was a down

00:37:27 ◼   ► cycle where it's undersold. It wasn't like it was a dud. It wasn't a failure, but it

00:37:32 ◼   ► actually didn't quite meet Apple's expectations. And I think there's several reasons for that.

00:37:37 ◼   ► I think that, like you said, that it was a super cycle that drove people to upgrade early

00:37:44 ◼   ► because they wanted bigger phones.

00:37:46 ◼   ► And I also think that it also prompted people to wait longer to upgrade, who might have

00:37:54 ◼   ► bought an iPhone 5S or even a 5, but who were waiting, who either saw the industry trends

00:38:02 ◼   ► or followed the rumors long enough that the rumor was that Apple would be coming out with

00:38:05 ◼   ► quote unquote, bigger iPhones, and that they wanted them that they would prompt them to wait

00:38:10 ◼   ► an extra year to upgrade to get a big one. I think both of those things were true and led to this,

00:38:17 ◼   ► you know, as you call it a supercycle. I think the success was, was suffered in the wake of that,

00:38:24 ◼   ► because so many people upgraded, like you said, upgraded early, who therefore weren't left to buy

00:38:31 ◼   ► the success model year, because they'd already upgraded the year before.

00:38:35 ◼   ► for. Yeah. But in addition to those factors though, I can't help but think that some part

00:38:43 ◼   ► of Apple saw the reaction to the six s as a, um, and it happened in previous years with

00:38:52 ◼   ► all the S phones where because they look the same, people say, ah, it's a mind, this is

00:38:57 ◼   ► a minor boring, right? Whereas technically I think if you were on a two year up, I've

00:39:02 ◼   ► this for many, many years. If you were on a two year upgrade cycle, the S year was the year to be

00:39:07 ◼   ► because the iPhone 3G versus the original iPhone had the exact same camera, the exact same

00:39:15 ◼   ► processor. Yeah, it really only added, I believe, 3G networking, which is a big deal. I mean,

00:39:21 ◼   ► it was significantly faster than the edge networking and GPS. I don't think it had anything

00:39:26 ◼   ► else. It just, you know, it wasn't serious. It was a reasonable upgrade just to get 3G

00:39:33 ◼   ► networking. But the 3GS was the first one where there was a real performance increase

00:39:39 ◼   ► in a real I mean, it was a really, really big video recording and it added video recording.

00:39:46 ◼   ► All sorts of things the four s I think was we could skip the four but it was still a

00:39:54 ◼   ► Very nice upgrade over the iPhone 4.

00:39:56 ◼   ► It fixed the antenna issues.

00:39:57 ◼   ► - Siri was the big deal there, yeah.

00:39:58 ◼   ► - Siri was the thing.

00:39:59 ◼   ► The 5S is when they went from 32-bit processor

00:40:03 ◼   ► to the 64-bit, shocking the industry,

00:40:06 ◼   ► literally shocking anybody who follows

00:40:07 ◼   ► the semiconductor industry.

00:40:09 ◼   ► - Where's they at Qualcomm's life?

00:40:11 ◼   ► - At a very technical level, a truly significant,

00:40:16 ◼   ► put them ahead of the competition by years,

00:40:21 ◼   ► technical upgrade was an S-mile.

00:40:22 ◼   ► Change their whole chipset architecture and which has served them for you know from then on right? It really was the start of the

00:40:29 ◼   ► And touch ID throw in yeah

00:40:32 ◼   ► Frosting right? It was a really good upgrade

00:40:35 ◼   ► Five s was a very nice upgrade. Oh, no, we just talked about the 5s success was a good upgrade

00:40:41 ◼   ► But I but it seemingly got more of a bad rap like a rap of

00:40:46 ◼   ► This is just a minor upgrade over last year than before and I 3d touch which a lot of people didn't

00:40:52 ◼   ► find appealing. And you know, they might have been running into the part where people do the CPU

00:41:01 ◼   ► improvements are there and they're real. Yes. But the six was so fast that nobody was complaining

00:41:08 ◼   ► about it being slow. Yeah. And the rose gold appeal to me and Christina Warren, but not enough

00:41:12 ◼   ► people. I and I also just can't help but feel that at that point. It's like that. It's not like the

00:41:20 ◼   ► 5 and 5S, like the iPhone wasn't already a mass market, tens of millions of purchases

00:41:27 ◼   ► per quarter product it was. But at some point there's a curve where in the early years,

00:41:33 ◼   ► it was a product for early adopters, certainly the first generation iPhone was.

00:41:38 ◼   ► **Ezra Klein:** Well, I get what you're saying though, because when you put the S on,

00:41:42 ◼   ► it does set expectations. So the press knows it's, for example, it's an iterative update, but also

00:41:47 ◼   ► people start grokking into that and they go oh it's just an s do i really want it and i think that

00:41:51 ◼   ► might have played into why the eight was eight and not seven s yes exactly where i'm going that

00:41:55 ◼   ► i can't help but think that apple blames a little bit of the six s's disappointing sales on the name

00:42:01 ◼   ► just a little i i think there's other reasons that are bigger that simply because the six was such a

00:42:07 ◼   ► spectacular hit but i can't help but think i thought i mean again i'm obviously wrong if

00:42:13 ◼   ► if the name of this product is the 10S, I was guessing that Apple might never do the

00:42:18 ◼   ► just add an S again because the 6S was such a dis—that's my very long digression of

00:42:24 ◼   ► saying I really never expected to see an S phone again whether it looked the same as

00:42:28 ◼   ► the last year or not.

00:42:29 ◼   ► Jared Polin (01h00): And someone on Twitter said tennis and now

00:42:30 ◼   ► I can't stop pronouncing it that way.

00:42:32 ◼   ► Dave Asprey (01h00): Yeah, Jason Sonnell even used the tennis ball

00:42:36 ◼   ► emoji in one tweet. It was just the iPhone and then a tennis ball. Anyway, I—

00:42:41 ◼   ► Anyway, I work it's like excess access access, eggs is I mean, like, it's just so many.

00:42:46 ◼   ► My, my I really did I didn't in my article, I tried I think I did a much more I still haven't

00:42:54 ◼   ► published it. But because I still haven't revised it in the wake of this, you know,

00:42:58 ◼   ► knowing quote unquote, knowing that the name is access or tennis, I keep saying access not to

00:43:05 ◼   ► it's gonna be impossible not to because I see it, you know, yeah. Anyway, I know for a fact like I

00:43:11 ◼   ► And so famously, I'm not good at, I don't have a great track record betting on Apple's product

00:43:16 ◼   ► names. Last year, after it was revealed that it was iPhone space capital X, I wrote an article,

00:43:23 ◼   ► just you know, because I like doing the speculation. I like guessing before the keynote,

00:43:29 ◼   ► explaining why I my guess was that they would pronounce it iPhone X, and not iPhone 10. And

00:43:36 ◼   ► and obviously I was very wrong.

00:43:38 ◼   ► But one of the reasons I thought was,

00:43:43 ◼   ► and I just said, because even if Apple wants to call it

00:43:46 ◼   ► the iPhone 10, spelled with a capital X,

00:43:48 ◼   ► people will say iPhone X.

00:43:51 ◼   ► And Apple knows this firsthand

00:43:55 ◼   ► because they know how many customers out there

00:43:57 ◼   ► have spent 10 years calling the Mac's operating system

00:44:01 ◼   ► Mac OS X.

00:44:02 ◼   ► - Yep. - Right?

00:44:04 ◼   ► I don't know what percentage, but it's if not a majority, it is, it is a very sizable

00:44:09 ◼   ► minority. They know this. And so if they're going to call it the iPhone X, why give it

00:44:13 ◼   ► this name? And I've heard from people and I was in an interesting Twitter thread on

00:44:18 ◼   ► this. And there were some people who said, you know what, I went around my office and

00:44:22 ◼   ► polled people and most people seem to know it's the iPhone 10. So maybe that's just a

00:44:26 ◼   ► function of who, who they work with being a little bit more keyed in or, or, you know,

00:44:33 ◼   ► little bit more Apple enthusiast II heard from people who work in Apple stores who say

00:44:38 ◼   ► Oh yeah, everybody comes in and calls it the iPhone X. Like if you work in Apple store,

00:44:43 ◼   ► you're Manning the iPhone desk people come in and they talk about the iPhone X. So they

00:44:49 ◼   ► know that awkward like do you say 10 and try to embarrass them or do you just go with it

00:44:52 ◼   ► and then look like you're done with the name from your product is and right it is weird.

00:44:56 ◼   ► And so my explanation for why they wouldn't just add s is if people whether Apple wants

00:45:01 ◼   ► them to say 10 or X, they're going to say X and therefore they're going to say X S and

00:45:06 ◼   ► that sounds like the word excess. Yeah, which is I don't think a word that Apple wants to

00:45:12 ◼   ► associate with a phone that was probably going to sell and so following 999 through presumably

00:45:20 ◼   ► for the large, you know, the highest end version of the larger one. Like what's the maximum

00:45:25 ◼   ► price of the current iPhone 10? Is it 11 over? I think 1200 Yeah, 1200 bucks. So then it'll

00:45:30 ◼   ► be at least $1300, $1299 for the max version of the larger one. I don't think they want

00:45:36 ◼   ► people calling it the iPhone XS or I would think they wouldn't. There's a nightclub in

00:45:45 ◼   ► Las Vegas at the Wynn. I'm not a nightclub person but it's big. You can't go to the Wynn

00:45:52 ◼   ► and not see the ads for it called XS. The whole reason they named the nightclub XS is

00:46:00 ◼   ► because it sounds like XS, which is what they want associated with their expensive, crazy,

00:46:08 ◼   ► big-name DJ nightclub.

00:46:10 ◼   ► Dave: Even the band in XS, that was the whole thing.

00:46:14 ◼   ► Dave: Yeah, exactly. There's two great examples where XS has been used before and in both

00:46:21 ◼   ► cases deliberately to create the verbal—I guess that's not a pun. I don't know what

00:46:28 ◼   ► what you call it, but the verbal conflation of the word XS

00:46:33 ◼   ► with the letters X and S.

00:46:34 ◼   ► So I just thought, I really just blew it off

00:46:36 ◼   ► as I don't think they're gonna do that.

00:46:39 ◼   ► And apparently I was wrong.

00:46:41 ◼   ► - Famously, yeah.

00:46:42 ◼   ► But you know, like they're smart people.

00:46:44 ◼   ► It's a super smart marketing organization.

00:46:45 ◼   ► And they usually, they have a name they want,

00:46:47 ◼   ► but then they make hundreds of other names

00:46:48 ◼   ► and they go through them and they make sure

00:46:49 ◼   ► there's not a better name and they check everything.

00:46:51 ◼   ► And they're not dummies to say the least.

00:46:53 ◼   ► And they had to know naming it iPhone 10

00:46:56 ◼   ► that this was gonna happen

00:46:58 ◼   ► because they're not getting out of the iPhone business

00:47:01 ◼   ► anytime soon.

00:47:02 ◼   ► And they have products like Xserve or Xcode still

00:47:06 ◼   ► that do use the Xs and Xs.

00:47:08 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:47:09 ◼   ► - The iPhone 10 code.

00:47:11 ◼   ► - Yeah, it causes so much confusion.

00:47:13 ◼   ► And Apple is so famous for understanding

00:47:15 ◼   ► that the best marketing is simple,

00:47:17 ◼   ► that it just seems weird

00:47:18 ◼   ► that we're having this conversation.

00:47:20 ◼   ► - It does.

00:47:21 ◼   ► And they do not--

00:47:24 ◼   ► - 'Cause if you show it to most humans,

00:47:25 ◼   ► They're going to say XS, I think.

00:47:30 ◼   ► I know I personally have a very deep—I'll go right out and say it—hatred of Roman

00:47:38 ◼   ► numerals.

00:47:39 ◼   ► I really hate them.

00:47:41 ◼   ► I can never figure them out.

00:47:42 ◼   ► They make no sense.

00:47:43 ◼   ► They're not human readable.

00:47:44 ◼   ► They're not human readable.

00:47:45 ◼   ► There's a reason that the ancient Romans were not very—not famous for their mathematical

00:47:52 ◼   ► discoveries.

00:47:53 ◼   ► discoveries. You know what I mean? There's a reason why Pythagoras was Greek.

00:48:02 ◼   ► Jon Streeter The Persians did so much math.

00:48:06 ◼   ► Jon Streeter Right. Right. And the reason that the place

00:48:10 ◼   ► where Arabic numerals were invented was also the home of numerous tremendous mathematical

00:48:17 ◼   ► discoveries. And the Romans didn't even have a symbol for zero. I mean, it is not

00:48:23 ◼   ► good system. It is antiquated. I really, by the one that I've ranted about before was the Super Bowl,

00:48:29 ◼   ► the NF, the National Football League has used Roman numerals for the Super Bowl. And then for

00:48:33 ◼   ► Super Bowl 50, they switched to Arabic numerals and just put a five zero. And I was like, finally,

00:48:39 ◼   ► and that's just makes sense. Because once you get up to like the 47s, it there are,

00:48:43 ◼   ► yeah, very long sequences of numbers in the very strange order that Roman numerals have to be in

00:48:50 ◼   ► to represent certain digits. And I thought it was, I thought that was so brilliant. It's like that

00:48:56 ◼   ► they trapped themselves in this Roman numeral thing back when Super Bowl 456 were all very

00:49:01 ◼   ► human readable and just hadn't had the foresight to think, "Hey, we might be in this for decades."

00:49:06 ◼   ► And then all of a sudden, you know, you've got XX, I, IV, you know, these crazy sequences.

00:49:13 ◼   ► "Hey, we'll break the sequence at 50 and then we'll just use numbers." But instead,

00:49:18 ◼   ► Instead, they went right back to Roman numerals, which just infuriates me.

00:49:21 ◼   ► And it seems that I don't know if you mentioned, I think you might've mentioned this previously,

00:49:24 ◼   ► if they had gone with X, they would have reset everything and had another nine years of models

00:49:28 ◼   ► to go through like X one, X two, X three, X four, very neat and tidy and pronounceable.

00:49:33 ◼   ► Right.

00:49:34 ◼   ► That was, it would have been very cool.

00:49:35 ◼   ► Like the iPhone X two, if they had called the original iPhone, the X, and if they just

00:49:39 ◼   ► called this one, the X two, that sounds really cool.

00:49:42 ◼   ► It sounds like the, like the way like fighter planes are named or something.

00:49:46 ◼   ► uh but no apparently we've got we're not in marketing

00:49:51 ◼   ► so i don't know we're apparently wrong about that but there is one thing that uh both that

00:50:01 ◼   ► they don't mention at nine to five mac and there was a german report into recently uh which did

00:50:13 ◼   ► did mention that they might add an S,

00:50:16 ◼   ► but that it hadn't been decided yet, which is crazy.

00:50:19 ◼   ► It's one of those things that drives me nuts

00:50:21 ◼   ► is that at the time, the date that that was printed

00:50:25 ◼   ► by Germin at Bloomberg, his sources may not know

00:50:30 ◼   ► if that was decided, but that decision was made months ago

00:50:34 ◼   ► at the highest levels in product marketing in Apple.

00:50:38 ◼   ► Like that decision is not up in the air right now,

00:50:41 ◼   ► and it was not up in the air last week. If it's actually called the iPhone XS, XS,

00:50:48 ◼   ► that decision was set at the date that the Bloomberg article was published.

00:50:52 ◼   ► Steven: I mean, I would be shocked if they hadn't discussed it when they named last

00:50:56 ◼   ► year's models because they know they come in. But I mean, theoretically, it's possible

00:50:59 ◼   ► that someone like Phil Schiller could go up and enter a name into the machine that eventually

00:51:05 ◼   ► prints out all the packaging and changes mind, but it's real late in the cycle.

00:51:09 ◼   ► Right. But the other thing that Germin mentioned, and I would like to speculate about, is whether

00:51:14 ◼   ► or not the bigger one will also be called Plus. And Germin said that was up in the air.

00:51:20 ◼   ► I'm thinking it will not be. I don't think they're going to call it the iPhone XS and

00:51:24 ◼   ► the iPhone XS Plus. I think they're just both going to be called the iPhone XS, and you

00:51:29 ◼   ► can get a bigger one or a smaller one.

00:51:31 ◼   ► Yeah. Because the middle-sized one is awkward at that point, too.

00:51:35 ◼   ► I think so too right that you've got a regular one and then there's a bigger one

00:51:40 ◼   ► I still think that was and plus plus plus and minus

00:51:42 ◼   ► I mean it just well and as I said, I think I mentioned this with Jason on my previous episode, but I know other

00:51:48 ◼   ► One reason I don't think they're gonna call this plus is that the plus in previous ones to me never only

00:51:56 ◼   ► Referred to the size right it referred to this to the to the fact that it was superior in several ways the plus

00:52:04 ◼   ► iPhone 6 plus I think I think every every one of the plus phones the ones that actually have an official plus in their name

00:52:10 ◼   ► Has at least some technical advantages

00:52:13 ◼   ► Including

00:52:16 ◼   ► Higher resolution not just bigger but 3x retina displays as opposed to 2x

00:52:21 ◼   ► although they were sort of like two and a half X because they were

00:52:25 ◼   ► Downscaling as opposed to the iPhone 10, which is the first true 3x retina resolution phone

00:52:32 ◼   ► But still I think that the downscaled

00:52:35 ◼   ► 3x was still a technical advantage because it still had more actual pixels per inch than the non plus

00:52:43 ◼   ► iPhones the cameras have always had at least some technical advantage

00:52:47 ◼   ► ranging from

00:52:51 ◼   ► Having a little image stabilization the next year it had optical image stabilization for video

00:52:59 ◼   ► which is arguably more important optical image stabilization and video makes a huge difference for a handheld videography and

00:53:05 ◼   ► Almost all iPhone videography is handheld. Yeah, and what the 7+ had the

00:53:12 ◼   ► Or when did they start? Yeah. Yeah, I haven't had the dual camera system, right and the dual camera system doesn't just give you

00:53:19 ◼   ► two focal lengths for completely

00:53:21 ◼   ► optical up, you know non digitally zoomed imagery

00:53:27 ◼   ► to date

00:53:29 ◼   ► Only dual camera iPhones have offered portrait mode. Yeah

00:53:33 ◼   ► because that uses the dual camera to to you know, the

00:53:38 ◼   ► The way that it's hardware verse, you know merged with software to get the portrait effect is complicated

00:53:46 ◼   ► But it does involve verse heart both hardware and software and the hardware famously if you have a Google pixel phone

00:53:52 ◼   ► You can apply portrait mode

00:53:53 ◼   ► It does in fact imply portrait mode afterwards as a filter

00:53:56 ◼   ► But it can't do real-time like you don't see it in the viewfinder

00:53:59 ◼   ► Because it doesn't have the lenses and the silicon to do it, right?

00:54:02 ◼   ► so the plus is always referred to a little bit more than just the size and

00:54:05 ◼   ► From what I've seen we don't know

00:54:08 ◼   ► I mean, well, you know, but everything I've seen is that the two iPhone X s models will be technically the same

00:54:14 ◼   ► They won't there won't be any real advantage to the larger one other than the nature of just having a larger display

00:54:20 ◼   ► Yeah

00:54:23 ◼   ► I guess the most akin that I can think that would be would be to the iPad Pro where the

00:54:31 ◼   ► 10.5 inch iPad Pro and the 12.9 inch iPad Pro are technical peers in every way I can

00:54:41 ◼   ► think of.

00:54:42 ◼   ► Both have true tone.

00:54:43 ◼   ► Both have pencil support.

00:54:45 ◼   ► If they're not the exact same clock speed, they're close enough?

00:54:48 ◼   ► Yeah, I think the memory is different, but you need that for the larger display.

00:54:53 ◼   ► Right.

00:54:54 ◼   ► And that'll be true of the iPhone as well.

00:54:55 ◼   ► Right.

00:54:56 ◼   ► The RAM will be higher.

00:54:57 ◼   ► Right.

00:54:58 ◼   ► I don't think you get any better performance.

00:54:59 ◼   ► Like the MacBook Pro is not as good a comparison because the 15-inch MacBook Pro is faster

00:55:05 ◼   ► than the 13-inch MacBook Pro.

00:55:08 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:55:10 ◼   ► But it's also, it is pretty close on it.

00:55:11 ◼   ► You know, there's a reason why the 15-inch MacBook Pro doesn't get its own name.

00:55:15 ◼   ► It's just the 15-inch.

00:55:16 ◼   ► Right.

00:55:17 ◼   ► MacBook Pro Plus.

00:55:18 ◼   ► So I think that I've speculated a lot,

00:55:22 ◼   ► and my guess would have been

00:55:24 ◼   ► that this would have been the year

00:55:25 ◼   ► where they call them the iPhone Pro.

00:55:27 ◼   ► I can't get over that, that they don't,

00:55:30 ◼   ► but much like the iPad Pro models

00:55:34 ◼   ► and the MacBook Pro models,

00:55:35 ◼   ► I think that the iPhone XS will only have one name

00:55:38 ◼   ► and you'll just pick a size.

00:55:40 ◼   ► - So does the other one become iPhone 9,

00:55:42 ◼   ► or does it become iPhone 10 minus?

00:55:45 ◼   ► - That's my guess.

00:55:46 ◼   ► No, my guess is iPhone 9.

00:55:47 ◼   ► My guess is, and this wasn't revealed,

00:55:51 ◼   ► so the leaks were only of the XS and then the watch,

00:55:55 ◼   ► but that leaves this mysterious 6.1 inch LCD

00:56:01 ◼   ► corner to corner around iPhone X basically looking phone.

00:56:05 ◼   ► I think it's very obvious

00:56:07 ◼   ► that they would call it the iPhone 9.

00:56:09 ◼   ► The number is just sitting there waiting to be used.

00:56:14 ◼   ► they've been upgrading that phone from the iPhone 7 to the 8 to the 9 every year. I know

00:56:23 ◼   ► like on Twitter, I've had very fun debate or Stephen Troughton Smith thinks they will

00:56:28 ◼   ► call it the iPhone 10 like C or the SE or something. iPhone 10 something simply because

00:56:37 ◼   ► the design is all part of it. But he also is under the impression and again, I could

00:56:41 ◼   ► be wrong. I've been wrong about this whole thing with the Xs and Xs, so I could be very

00:56:45 ◼   ► wrong. But he seems to be thinking that the X is going to stand around like the X for

00:56:51 ◼   ► Mac OS X as a decade-long branding thing, and they'll just increment other things

00:56:57 ◼   ► every year. I don't think that's true, especially…

00:56:59 ◼   ► Steven

00:56:59 ◼   ► Absolutely.

00:57:00 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:57:01 ◼   ► Especially as a Roman numeral.

00:57:03 ◼   ► Well, not just that.

00:57:04 ◼   ► I just feel like I just can't see where they would go next year with iPhone X something.

00:57:11 ◼   ► Xt.

00:57:12 ◼   ► Yeah, like somebody's throughout T, iPhone Xt.

00:57:16 ◼   ► Again, this would all make a lot more sense if they were pronouncing the X as an X. I

00:57:21 ◼   ► could see that being a decade-long thing where they just keep having iPhone X somethings.

00:57:26 ◼   ► And again, just resetting the numbers and doing the X2, the X3, the X4 sounds cool to

00:57:31 ◼   ► me. I just can't see doing it while you're calling it 10 because that to me makes it

00:57:37 ◼   ► sound like you're stuck for years. You're stuck on this. I've, you know, you kept incrementing

00:57:41 ◼   ► these numbers and then all of a sudden you're stuck at 10. Yeah. I don't know. I, I, at

00:57:47 ◼   ► this point I wouldn't be shocked if it, you know, the other one was the iPhone 10c with

00:57:51 ◼   ► an X and a C. And you know, there's precedent for that because of the iPhone 5C and the

00:57:58 ◼   ► iPhone 5C came in a variety of colors that, you know, totally novel compared to what had

00:58:06 ◼   ► become before and frankly since. And there are rumors that this 6.1 inch iPhone will

00:58:11 ◼   ► come in a similar array of colors. Yeah. And the C obviously, you know, for a colorful

00:58:20 ◼   ► model line, it makes some degree of sense. C for color.

00:58:24 ◼   ► Steven: And I don't know how much they care. I mean, Samsung famously skipped Galaxy, one

00:58:28 ◼   ► of the Galaxy Notes, like seven or eight or something. And they skipped the number ahead

00:58:31 ◼   ► so it would be on the same numbering scheme as iPhone because they don't want people

00:58:35 ◼   ► to go to a store and see like an iPhone 8 and a Galaxy Note 6 or something because it

00:58:38 ◼   ► would look like they were behind. But Samsung's probably going to keep incrementing. So if

00:58:43 ◼   ► you had a decade of iPhone 10s and they're going to 11, 12, 13, 14, then walk into the

00:58:47 ◼   ► store who don't know any better.

00:58:49 ◼   ► Right. Yeah. So you run into the reverse problem going head to head against Samsung.

00:58:53 ◼   ► So I don't dismiss it. It's what makes for a good debate. You know,

00:58:58 ◼   ► I don't dismiss the idea of this LCD model being called the XC or the X something.

00:59:05 ◼   ► But I don't think so. I think they'll just call it the iPhone nine because I just don't think,

00:59:14 ◼   ► I think being it's so far behind the iPhone 10 that as we know it, I mean in the actual 20,

00:59:21 ◼   ► you know, the one that's in my pocket right now from last year, because the iPhone 10 has an

00:59:25 ◼   ► OLED display and OLED is truly superior to LCD, richer blacks, but more energy efficient. Can't

00:59:33 ◼   ► see it. It is a funny thing. You can't show it in an advertisement, right? Like there's no way on a

00:59:42 ◼   ► TV advertisement to show how an OLED is better than an LCD because the TV itself is either an LCD or an OLED

00:59:51 ◼   ► So you can't show that you know or in my personal case. It's a plasma screen. So now you're mixing up three technologies

00:59:57 ◼   ► You but they do need something because it's gonna be bigger than the normal sized iPhone

01:00:03 ◼   ► 10 s and you do need something to indicate that it's a lower tier product

01:00:08 ◼   ► It's not a higher tier product and both 9 and C might be able to do that

01:00:12 ◼   ► that.

01:00:13 ◼   ► Right.

01:00:14 ◼   ► And especially, I think nine.

01:00:15 ◼   ► Well, I don't know if she would do that, though, if it's called iPhone 10, C and iPhone 10

01:00:19 ◼   ► s, and it's mid size, I don't know. I don't know how a typical consumer would come in

01:00:25 ◼   ► and just say and see this as a $200 lesser phone. I mean, I'm presuming it'll be like

01:00:30 ◼   ► an $800 starting point and $1,000 starting point for the iPhone 10 s. I just don't see

01:00:36 ◼   ► how if you call it the 10 anything, that comes across.

01:00:39 ◼   ► And then, you know, it's not like, oh, poor Apple,

01:00:44 ◼   ► pity them, tens and tens of millions of people

01:00:47 ◼   ► are buying the $800 new iPhone

01:00:49 ◼   ► instead of the $1,000 new iPhone.

01:00:51 ◼   ► I mean, it's not like they're giving these things away

01:00:54 ◼   ► versus selling the iPhone 10.

01:00:56 ◼   ► I mean, it's still a very expensive phone.

01:00:58 ◼   ► It used to be the highest, you know,

01:00:59 ◼   ► that until last year it was the highest priced phones

01:01:02 ◼   ► that they sold.

01:01:03 ◼   ► I expect them to be at the same pricing tier.

01:01:05 ◼   ► But I, that doesn't really make a lot of strategic sense

01:01:10 ◼   ► to me and everybody knows or follows it

01:01:12 ◼   ► that the iPhone 10's commercial success

01:01:16 ◼   ► significantly raised the average selling price

01:01:19 ◼   ► of iPhones this year, which is sort of unprecedented,

01:01:24 ◼   ► you know, for a 10 year old computing platform.

01:01:26 ◼   ► Like prices tend to, inexorably tend to go down over time

01:01:31 ◼   ► in the computer industry and they've certainly gone down

01:01:35 ◼   ► for all of Apple's competitors in the Android space. And the iPhone 10 was such a spectacular

01:01:43 ◼   ► hit and so much more expensive than previous iPhones that it significantly raised the average

01:01:49 ◼   ► selling price of an iPhone. And again, I don't think that the iPhone, the 6.1 inch one, the

01:01:55 ◼   ► one that I'll call the iPhone nine, I don't think Apple has like crippled it in any way

01:02:02 ◼   ► to drive this. I think if anything going to this corner to corner edge to edge notch display

01:02:08 ◼   ► and the no home button thing as opposed to staying with the iPhone 8 classic, you know,

01:02:15 ◼   ► front face technology that they're being aggressive about moving this stuff, you know, like face

01:02:21 ◼   ► ID to the second tier. Yes. But I can't help but feel though that calling it iPhone nine

01:02:29 ◼   ► versus the iPhone XS wouldn't make much more clear that it's one click below, just

01:02:36 ◼   ► because the number's one click below.

01:02:37 ◼   ► Jared Polin Yeah, no, absolutely.

01:02:40 ◼   ► Dave Asprey So that's my guess. My guess is just the

01:02:43 ◼   ► most obvious thing in the world, which is that this phone, that phone will be called

01:02:46 ◼   ► the iPhone 9.

01:02:47 ◼   ► Jared Polin Everyone in Germany will be so confused.

01:02:49 ◼   ► Dave Asprey And they'll say, you know, I could see it

01:02:52 ◼   ► like I could, I'm not quite sure what order they would come out in the keynote.

01:02:58 ◼   ► What do you think?

01:03:02 ◼   ► I kind of think you would do the iPhone 9 first.

01:03:05 ◼   ► Yeah, they did C before they did 5S.

01:03:07 ◼   ► Did they?

01:03:08 ◼   ► I see.

01:03:09 ◼   ► I don't remember that.

01:03:10 ◼   ► It makes sense.

01:03:11 ◼   ► Tim Cook came out and said that the iPhone business is so big now, it's expanding, that

01:03:15 ◼   ► for the first time they're going to do not one but two new iPhones, and the first one

01:03:18 ◼   ► is the 5C.

01:03:19 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:03:20 ◼   ► So my guess is—I guess it would be Phil Schiller, because he's done every iPhone—he's

01:03:28 ◼   ► done the introduction for every single iPhone other than the ones that were introduced by

01:03:32 ◼   ► Steve Jobs. The only two people who've ever introduced new iPhone hardware have been Steve

01:03:37 ◼   ► Jobs and Phil Schiller. Historically, you think about it, you think Jobs did all the

01:03:46 ◼   ► first ones and then ever since he died, Phil's done these and he filled in when Steve was

01:03:52 ◼   ► sick. But Steve was ill for a couple of years. I don't have a thing in front of me, but

01:03:58 ◼   ► But I think that Steve only introduced the iPhone, the 3G.

01:04:06 ◼   ► I know that the 3GS was a shiller year because—

01:04:09 ◼   ► The 4 was Steve because he did the whole camera thing.

01:04:12 ◼   ► Right.

01:04:13 ◼   ► And the 4S was the one that was introduced days before he died.

01:04:18 ◼   ► So it was only three of them, right?

01:04:22 ◼   ► The only three phones Steve Jobs introduced, the iPhone 3G and then the 4.

01:04:27 ◼   ► And I do remember that with the four and it was the last one at WWDC.

01:04:31 ◼   ► Yeah, it was turn off your MiFis for the FaceTime.

01:04:35 ◼   ► It's unforgettable.

01:04:39 ◼   ► [laughter]

01:04:41 ◼   ► Johnny, these bloggers won't turn off their MiFis, but we'll just keep going.

01:04:48 ◼   ► So I can see Phil on stage.

01:04:53 ◼   ► I would think my gut tells me that you do the nine first.

01:04:57 ◼   ► And my guess is that the narrative would be something

01:04:59 ◼   ► of along the lines of last year,

01:05:01 ◼   ► we introduced the iPhone 10 as the iPhone of the future,

01:05:05 ◼   ► ahead of years ahead of its time.

01:05:09 ◼   ► And we introduced this beautiful corner to corner display.

01:05:13 ◼   ► We introduced face ID,

01:05:15 ◼   ► these new gestures that replace the home button.

01:05:19 ◼   ► And here they are in the iPhone nine.

01:05:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, this year we bring it to everybody.

01:05:25 ◼   ► - Right, and so you don't say,

01:05:27 ◼   ► you don't have to even mention that it's not an OLED screen.

01:05:30 ◼   ► You mentioned that the innovation was going edge to edge

01:05:33 ◼   ► with the round corners, with Face ID,

01:05:36 ◼   ► the gestures for navigating.

01:05:40 ◼   ► - And rumor has it it's that fancy new LG display anyway

01:05:42 ◼   ► that's 100% DCI-P3 and is basically as good

01:05:46 ◼   ► as LCD can get.

01:05:47 ◼   ► - So that's great, right?

01:05:48 ◼   ► Then there's things they can brag that the display is good

01:05:51 ◼   ► or great even, maybe not the best, but it is great.

01:05:55 ◼   ► - The best LCD display we've ever had in an iPhone.

01:05:57 ◼   ► - There you go, I can even see them saying that.

01:06:00 ◼   ► Best LCD, yeah, I could see that.

01:06:01 ◼   ► And the specific points like the color spectrum

01:06:05 ◼   ► and maybe True Tone, I hope.

01:06:08 ◼   ► I would be nice if it got True Tone.

01:06:10 ◼   ► That would be great.

01:06:12 ◼   ► - But I guess at that point,

01:06:13 ◼   ► it's just figuring out the price point

01:06:14 ◼   ► they wanna sell it at,

01:06:15 ◼   ► then how many features they can include at that price point.

01:06:17 ◼   ► - Well, we seem to know from the leaks

01:06:20 ◼   ► that it doesn't have a dual camera design.

01:06:22 ◼   ► It has a single camera. - Yes.

01:06:24 ◼   ► - Whether that's accurate or not, I can't say.

01:06:28 ◼   ► 'Cause there's certainly,

01:06:29 ◼   ► it seems like there's also fewer leaks about this phone.

01:06:32 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:06:33 ◼   ► - But I would guess it has a single camera design

01:06:36 ◼   ► and that that would be a significant way

01:06:39 ◼   ► that they would differentiate,

01:06:40 ◼   ► both differentiate it and keep the component prices down.

01:06:44 ◼   ► - And I think the size has confused some people

01:06:46 ◼   ► because especially here we conflate the size with the price.

01:06:49 ◼   ► like SE was smaller and famously cheaper.

01:06:52 ◼   ► But in a lot of markets, emerging markets and Asian markets,

01:06:56 ◼   ► the iPhone is a primary computing device

01:06:57 ◼   ► and people want to need it to be as big as possible.

01:07:00 ◼   ► So the combination of a lower price iPhone

01:07:02 ◼   ► that's also a big iPhone is gonna be hugely appealing

01:07:05 ◼   ► in the markets that Apple really wants to hit hard this year.

01:07:07 ◼   ► - Oh, and they can also say it is the largest LCD iPhone.

01:07:11 ◼   ► - Yes.

01:07:12 ◼   ► - They could also say if they introduce it first,

01:07:15 ◼   ► it's the largest screen we've ever had on an iPhone.

01:07:19 ◼   ► And they can make a comparison to the plus sized like iPhone 8 and say it has here's

01:07:26 ◼   ► how much more area it has even than the plus sized iPhones of the past. I'm hoping it

01:07:34 ◼   ► has I don't I don't I don't even know what the supply chain leaks say but I'm hoping

01:07:38 ◼   ► it has a true 3x retina display as opposed to a scaled down retina display. I think it's

01:07:43 ◼   ► 2x I think that's one of the ways it's also differentiated and lower cost. Oh, that

01:07:47 ◼   ► That could be possible. That's interesting. Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised. Now that

01:07:52 ◼   ► I think about it, going 2x, even though it's larger, could make sense. And then having

01:08:02 ◼   ► colorful color options and saying, "Look, we've got all this stuff." I could just

01:08:06 ◼   ► see that happening. It seems like a very natural way to do it. And then you move on to the

01:08:10 ◼   ► iPhone XS and say, "Here's the big boy."

01:08:15 ◼   ► Dave Asprey Yeah, totally.

01:08:17 ◼   ► Dave Let me think.

01:08:19 ◼   ► What else?

01:08:20 ◼   ► Anything else on the name?

01:08:21 ◼   ► I'm thinking iPhone 9, iPhone XS.

01:08:23 ◼   ► That's my bet.

01:08:24 ◼   ► Dave Asprey Yeah, the X thing is going to bug me for the

01:08:28 ◼   ► next years.

01:08:29 ◼   ► I just have to get used to it.

01:08:30 ◼   ► Dave It is definitely going to bug me as well.

01:08:33 ◼   ► I can't even think.

01:08:34 ◼   ► I've already lost count of how many times on this episode I've already said X where

01:08:38 ◼   ► I don't even know what to say because I don't want to confuse people.

01:08:44 ◼   ► know, because I find like I can say 10 when I'm just saying it, but if I ever see it written

01:08:48 ◼   ► down, I start to tend towards X because the X man everything is X. Yeah, I read it that

01:08:53 ◼   ► way. It's easier for me to write it consistently. I it's always been to write iPhone space, capital

01:08:59 ◼   ► X. I never there's no reason to be confused. I see it. It's a very much. Yes. It's the

01:09:06 ◼   ► podcast thing speaking about it where it trips me up. All right, that brings up one more

01:09:09 ◼   ► thing no on naming, I guess, is given that we know, quote unquote, no, iPhone XS, pronounced

01:09:18 ◼   ► 10S, and presumably iPhone 9, where do they go next year? Because that's one of the

01:09:24 ◼   ► other reasons. Last year, I thought there's no way they're going to pronounce this the

01:09:28 ◼   ► 10 because they're going to run, you know, you run into problems.

01:09:32 ◼   ► Next year, it'll be an actual like Arabic 10 iPhone is one zero and then iPhone XT pronounced.

01:09:40 ◼   ► Well, I can't believe I really and again, I might be just overly personally biased against

01:09:45 ◼   ► Roman numerals. I cannot believe that they would ever go to 11 using the X and the I.

01:09:51 ◼   ► Yeah, I really can't I really do feel that part of the reason Apple seemingly has this

01:09:57 ◼   ► marketing infatuation with the letter X is that X is the coolest letter in the alphabet.

01:10:03 ◼   ► Even if they're going to call it Mac OS X and iPhone X, they also like the way it looked

01:10:11 ◼   ► visually to spell it with a capital X. Same thing with Xcode, right? Xcode just sounds

01:10:16 ◼   ► like a cool app. I just can't—I feel like you lose that coolness if you go to XI for

01:10:24 ◼   ► for 11. But does it make any sense to go to iPhone 11 next year? And then where goes the

01:10:32 ◼   ► middle range? I guess you can have a 9S year. But you eventually, so you could go next year

01:10:39 ◼   ► and have an iPhone 11 in two sizes at the high end and an iPhone 9S at the $800 level.

01:10:46 ◼   ► But then the next year you're definitely run out of space.

01:10:48 ◼   ► Steven: Yeah, you're buying time. You're never fixing the problem.

01:10:51 ◼   ► Right. And I heard, or at least somewhere on Twitter, I saw somebody speculating that

01:10:55 ◼   ► they could just keep moving the high end model up. And then they could move the middle range

01:11:01 ◼   ► one and use reuse 10 again, but spell it with the one and a zero. Yeah, because they never

01:11:07 ◼   ► used it before. But I don't think you could do that. No, I mean, you can do I guess you

01:11:11 ◼   ► can do anything and they could call it the, you know, iPhone poop emoji.

01:11:14 ◼   ► Yeah, like I said, iPhone, Mother of Dragons, whatever they want, they can call it.

01:11:19 ◼   ► I just don't think I need any just you start using emoji in the names.

01:11:23 ◼   ► You know, I phone martini glass. Yes. I mean, they could do anything they wanted to. But

01:11:31 ◼   ► I just don't see they can't reuse 10 two years later with one zero. And have anybody be able to

01:11:39 ◼   ► speak about it coherently. Meanwhile, the marketing team is listening to this with the glass.

01:11:45 ◼   ► Exactly. Because we can do a lot of things, but I just I I can't and again I could be wrong and you know

01:11:52 ◼   ► Seven years from now we'll be talking about the iPhone 17

01:11:54 ◼   ► But yes, I really do feel like they've got to stop numbering them eventually because it just starts like the Super Bowl

01:12:01 ◼   ► Yeah, really? Yeah, it just starts blurring. It doesn't seem as distinctive, you know

01:12:05 ◼   ► The year over year is an upgrade and so I'll stick with my theory that eventually they'll go iPhone and iPhone Pro

01:12:13 ◼   ► And next year would make perfect sense. I guess even yeah

01:12:18 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean I guess the one thing that wouldn't make sense about doing it this year is if they know that the iPhone

01:12:24 ◼   ► 10s is going to look

01:12:26 ◼   ► Form factor wise the same as the iPhone 10. It doesn't make sense to make such a big naming difference

01:12:32 ◼   ► Year after year for two phones that are visually in certain colors at least are visually indistinguishable. Yeah

01:12:38 ◼   ► that they would say if

01:12:41 ◼   ► Someday, you know and I feel like Gene Munster talking about Apple TV

01:12:45 ◼   ► Right, like I feel like what the Apple TV was Apple making a TV set to Gene Munster is me

01:12:51 ◼   ► Thinking that this is the year Apple is going to call the high-end phone the iPhone Pro

01:12:56 ◼   ► I get it

01:12:57 ◼   ► Well, they did it with the like the iPad had a 9.7 Pro and the 12.9 Pro and the 9.7 non Pro and then

01:13:03 ◼   ► They then they changed it to the 10.5 and 9.7 just became iPad. Yeah, it was just like that, right?

01:13:09 ◼   ► That's exactly you know, I saw them do that and I was like, yes, that makes perfect sense. That's really kind of brilliant

01:13:15 ◼   ► And it you know, it's a sort of thing that takes you know

01:13:19 ◼   ► Like maybe 18 months to roll out and completely make sense across the line and the second generation

01:13:24 ◼   ► 12.9 wasn't even 12.9 mark - it was just they didn't add anything - it was just the new iPad

01:13:30 ◼   ► Fucking a new iPad. Oh, yeah

01:13:33 ◼   ► Like I don't know

01:13:36 ◼   ► So I guess is next year would be the year where they'll have a new form factor at the high end and call it iPhone

01:13:42 ◼   ► Pro but

01:13:44 ◼   ► again, anybody who's been betting along with me on that is

01:13:46 ◼   ► Very sorry, very sorry

01:13:49 ◼   ► Let me take another break here and thank our friends at Squarespace and we'll talk about Apple watch

01:13:54 ◼   ► and what we've

01:13:57 ◼   ► Interesting things we've learned this week

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01:15:54 ◼   ► All right, so the Apple watch yeah very very can we agree on that name?

01:16:01 ◼   ► I think that's one thing that is very nice about the Apple watch is their naming scheme

01:16:07 ◼   ► is very predictable and very to me it works very well.

01:16:11 ◼   ► I think there's although what are they what are they going to name the new series one

01:16:14 ◼   ► because they mean there's always an issue which what would be the new series one which

01:16:20 ◼   ► is a series three become less expensive and they'll keep the names anyway.

01:16:24 ◼   ► I think that's what they'll do. I think they'll keep the Series 3 and just make it more expensive

01:16:27 ◼   ► or lower the price. I mean, maybe less expensive. Yeah, I think it's very obvious that they would

01:16:32 ◼   ► just keep the Series 3. And I think it was probably designed with that in mind.

01:16:37 ◼   ► Yeah. I think that it's the—I don't think you have to have any inside information at all to just

01:16:43 ◼   ► speculate that first-generation products are very, very difficult, always come up with unforeseen

01:16:50 ◼   ► difficulties. And so the fact that the original Apple Watch, the AKA, you know, not officially

01:17:00 ◼   ► named, but as we call it the Series 0, didn't stick around and was instead replaced with

01:17:06 ◼   ► the Series, what they called the Series 1, even though it came out alongside Generation

01:17:11 ◼   ► and even had the two system on a chip is unsurprising.

01:17:20 ◼   ► Same way that the original iPhone is the only one for years and years that didn't stick

01:17:24 ◼   ► around for a second year at a lower price.

01:17:27 ◼   ► So I think by the time they got to Series 3, they felt pretty—I think that they knew

01:17:34 ◼   ► both this would be a great new high-end model year, and this is something that a year from

01:17:41 ◼   ► from now, we can definitely sell for $50 less. You know, and just has all sorts of nice things

01:17:49 ◼   ► like the water resistance and all sorts of stuff. Yeah, I think the name will be Series

01:17:54 ◼   ► 4. I'd be absolutely flabbergasted if it weren't because it's obvious.

01:18:00 ◼   ► Don't serious 3s

01:18:02 ◼   ► Jesus

01:18:05 ◼   ► As

01:18:07 ◼   ► rumored

01:18:09 ◼   ► You know the display is larger and or you know

01:18:13 ◼   ► Probably I'm guessing that corner to corner, you know or top to bottom. It's still 42 and 38 millimeters

01:18:21 ◼   ► I think Apple likes those sizes. I think that they

01:18:23 ◼   ► Are

01:18:28 ◼   ► They are good in and of themselves and watches are very different than phones like watches aren't you know?

01:18:33 ◼   ► Going to get bigger the way phones have gotten bigger

01:18:35 ◼   ► It's an interesting juxtaposition because if they over the last let's say 13 months

01:18:41 ◼   ► They've been deleting bezels and on the phone. They put a bigger screen into effectively, you know

01:18:46 ◼   ► The same size casing as the plus size screen into the effectively non plus size phone with the Apple watch

01:18:52 ◼   ► They're putting a bigger screen into the same casing and with the iPad they're putting smaller casing around the same size screen

01:18:58 ◼   ► Yeah, it's, you know, and it's like the original or the first three generations of Apple Watch

01:19:05 ◼   ► have had exceedingly large bezels, but you know, they're there. And it just, you know,

01:19:10 ◼   ► this was like a black ring that nobody could complete. And now it's gone.

01:19:15 ◼   ► Well, and the other neat thing about it is that it's always been the case with every

01:19:20 ◼   ► Apple Watch is that, you know, these are the first products where Apple used OLED screens.

01:19:24 ◼   ► And the very rich blacks of OLED made that bezel seem not like something separate from

01:19:33 ◼   ► the display or surrounding the display, but that you just sort of lost the difference

01:19:37 ◼   ► between where the screen ends and the bezel begins.

01:19:40 ◼   ► Yeah, and that was physically the biggest display they could put in the Apple Watch

01:19:43 ◼   ► at the time.

01:19:44 ◼   ► Right.

01:19:45 ◼   ► So the rumor all year has been that the new Series 4 would have a larger display that

01:19:53 ◼   ► with shrunk bezels, meaning that the case would stay either the same or roughly the

01:19:57 ◼   ► same size. And just more of the black that you see within the metal frame is actually

01:20:05 ◼   ► taken up by a usable display than before. And this image that 9to5Mac obtained—can

01:20:12 ◼   ► I just say this the other day? I don't blame 9to5Mac for watermarking these images. I get

01:20:20 ◼   ► I get, you know, I don't post images typically during Fireball. Most websites do post images

01:20:27 ◼   ► and liberally borrow exclusive images from other sites. So I totally get it that in the racket of

01:20:35 ◼   ► posting images, you know, that you'd want to watermark it so that everybody who republishes

01:20:43 ◼   ► the image has to publish your website's name along with the images. But along the lines of

01:20:49 ◼   ► maybe Apple did this deliberately. Like I'm looking at this image as we speak.

01:20:55 ◼   ► If anybody out there is listening and still thinks Apple, you know, like Phil Schiller and Greg

01:21:01 ◼   ► Joswiak got together and said, let's let's get people excited and give them a sneak peek at the

01:21:06 ◼   ► new Apple Watch, that the first time that any of them would see it would include a very large nine

01:21:12 ◼   ► to five Mac logo that obscures part of the image. To me, that might be the single best

01:21:20 ◼   ► explanation of why this is done deliberately. So what we see, we see a gold or, yeah, I guess

01:21:32 ◼   ► that's gold, not rose gold, right? Gold. Yeah, it looks gold to me. Gold aluminum Apple watch,

01:21:41 ◼   ► seemingly with a sort of a top band like a tan like an off-white band

01:21:47 ◼   ► the the watch itself definitely looks thinner to me it's very hard to tell from an image i mean

01:21:55 ◼   ► the display obviously takes up a significantly larger portion of the front face there's no

01:22:01 ◼   ► doubt that this display is bigger corner to corner than any previous iphone or apple watch

01:22:08 ◼   ► But it also looks thinner to me. It looks like a thinner device. Now that could be just flattering

01:22:15 ◼   ► product photography. But… And… Well, you don't see the sensor bump on the back, which…

01:22:20 ◼   ► Right. You never know how thick that is. Right. And that is how the Apple Watch got thicker with

01:22:25 ◼   ► the Series 3, is that the sensor array actually protrude slightly more. I think Jeff Williams,

01:22:34 ◼   ► when he said so, might have even said it was less than a single millimeter,

01:22:37 ◼   ► which is pretty small. But I can, as a picky person and a long-time watch wearer, I can tell

01:22:43 ◼   ► that my Series 3 Apple Watch is a little bit more off my wrist than previous Apple Watches,

01:22:48 ◼   ► even if it's a fraction of a millimeter. When you're talking about devices that are only—and

01:22:55 ◼   ► this is very typical for the entire watch world—devices that seem to range from 12,

01:23:03 ◼   ► 13, 14 millimeters, it makes a difference. Like, just not even talking Apple watches,

01:23:09 ◼   ► but just a watch that's 12 millimeters thick often feels much less chunky on your wrist than

01:23:15 ◼   ► a 14 millimeter watch. Even if-- - Just look at 38 versus 42 millimeters, doesn't sound like a lot,

01:23:20 ◼   ► but when you see it on the watch, it's a lot because it's so small. - Right. So that's one

01:23:24 ◼   ► area where I think that the Apple Watch as Apple continue, you know, it's so good at miniaturizing

01:23:33 ◼   ► what it's done. I mean, I truly—I've said this before, but I truly think that the one thing Apple,

01:23:37 ◼   ► modern Apple, has done that they don't get enough credit for is that they are better at

01:23:42 ◼   ► miniaturizing computers than any company in the history of the world. They, you know,

01:23:49 ◼   ► just everything from AirPods as being mini iOS devices that live in your ears to,

01:23:56 ◼   ► you know, and the tremendous battery life they get out of AirPods to Apple Watch, you know,

01:24:03 ◼   ► Every year after year the Apple watch has gotten significantly better and it's just upset just as a computing device

01:24:08 ◼   ► just totally nerding out and looking at this as a little tiny Unix computer with a

01:24:13 ◼   ► Display that lives on your wrist. It's truly amazing how much they have gotten it better year after year, but at a certain point

01:24:19 ◼   ► It's like the watch is unique in that you don't really want to go bigger

01:24:23 ◼   ► like the fact that the Apple watch is as small as it is compared to

01:24:27 ◼   ► Competition from companies like Samsung has been a feather in its cap and a reason it's so popular

01:24:32 ◼   ► but you also don't really want to go smaller in terms of

01:24:35 ◼   ► The face size, you know, like if Apple in theory could make an Apple watch 34 millimeters big

01:24:44 ◼   ► Technically that might not be appealing to many people because it's actually too small

01:24:49 ◼   ► Only schwarzenegger wants 48 millimeters, right?

01:24:52 ◼   ► you want to balance this combination of the aesthetics of what it looks like as a piece of jewelry on your wrist combined with the

01:25:01 ◼   ► Ability to see as much information as you can looking at it as a computer display and you have battery budget

01:25:07 ◼   ► You know like some people really want it to be thinner

01:25:09 ◼   ► But then you're spending your battery budget on removing battery to keep the same

01:25:12 ◼   ► Features where other people would like an always-on display or the ability to run real UI kit apps

01:25:17 ◼   ► Which would cost battery right and wouldn't let them get rid of so you have all these things you have to balance, right?

01:25:22 ◼   ► There's a ton of things to balance

01:25:24 ◼   ► But two things that are very obvious is that being able to put a larger corner-to-corner display

01:25:30 ◼   ► within the same area would be a win, like a win in every regard, like I guess with the

01:25:37 ◼   ► possible exception of battery life. But if your battery life has gotten better enough that you

01:25:41 ◼   ► can support it, that's just a great idea. And then making the whole device thinner would be great.

01:25:47 ◼   ► There's no doubt that a slightly thinner Apple Watch would be better. I think almost everybody

01:25:53 ◼   ► would agree. So would you prefer a slightly thinner watch or an always-on display if they

01:25:58 ◼   ► if they had the same battery cost?

01:26:00 ◼   ► - Probably the always on display.

01:26:02 ◼   ► - Yeah, me too. (laughs)

01:26:03 ◼   ► - Because I will say that the S3, the series three,

01:26:06 ◼   ► while I do think I'd noticed that it's thicker,

01:26:09 ◼   ► I have never thought Apple Watch was too thick.

01:26:11 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:26:12 ◼   ► - Including the thickest ever, which was the series three.

01:26:14 ◼   ► So I would definitely say always on display.

01:26:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, me too.

01:26:18 ◼   ► - I still miss that.

01:26:21 ◼   ► - Me too.

01:26:22 ◼   ► - I just ran into it the other day.

01:26:24 ◼   ► I was carrying two beverages, one for me, one for my wife.

01:26:27 ◼   ► and one in each hand.

01:26:30 ◼   ► And there was just no way to get my watch to show the time.

01:26:34 ◼   ► And I really wanted to know the time very badly.

01:26:37 ◼   ► - Right, and if you turn your wrist, you spill the drink.

01:26:39 ◼   ► - Right. - If you try to get me,

01:26:40 ◼   ► look, it's just no wind.

01:26:41 ◼   ► - And it was too filled to the brim.

01:26:43 ◼   ► I forget if it was iced tea or coffee,

01:26:45 ◼   ► but some kind of, it wasn't water.

01:26:48 ◼   ► So they were filled to the brim and just had lids.

01:26:50 ◼   ► So I also couldn't, and I had a nice white shirt on,

01:26:54 ◼   ► I couldn't just hug the other one in my right hand

01:26:57 ◼   ► it would have gotten some brown beverage on my white shirt. So I just had no way to check

01:27:03 ◼   ► the time. Whereas if I was wearing any of my other watches, I would have been able to glance

01:27:07 ◼   ► at the wrist and see the time. So I would pick that. But anyway, this does look thinner. I'm

01:27:12 ◼   ► not surprised that if it is thinner. And again, when they're on stage and tell you how much

01:27:19 ◼   ► thinner it is, that number may not sound impressive. I don't know if it's one millimeter

01:27:25 ◼   ► thinner or something. But a one-millimeter thinner Apple Watch could actually, in practice,

01:27:32 ◼   ► be actually pretty significantly noticeably, "Wow, I didn't expect this to be so much

01:27:36 ◼   ► thinner and thinner."

01:27:37 ◼   ► **Ezra Klein:** And for some people, it's just a matter of

01:27:39 ◼   ► it fitting under the cuff of their shirt or not fitting, which is a big deal for them.

01:27:42 ◼   ► **Ezra Klein** That is absolutely. And it really is, in the

01:27:45 ◼   ► watch world, that is actually, you know, that is like just about every review I ever see

01:27:50 ◼   ► of a watch, like at Hodinkee or a site like that, usually mentions how it fits under the

01:27:55 ◼   ► cuff, like a sleeve cuff is actually what people talk about. And the other big form

01:28:02 ◼   ► factor change, I'll let you say it, on the Digital Crown.

01:28:07 ◼   ► Yeah, well there's the microphone, which I think is just a small one, but it'll aid

01:28:10 ◼   ► with its noise cancelling and Siri reception. But yeah, the Digital Crown went from being

01:28:14 ◼   ► all red to being a thin red line.

01:28:16 ◼   ► Yeah, so I'm presuming here but on last year's when they a series three the

01:28:23 ◼   ► The side of the digital crown the part that your finger if you're gonna press the digital crown in on the cellular models

01:28:30 ◼   ► no matter what color watch you have it's red and

01:28:33 ◼   ► If it's not a cellular watch then it's black. Yeah, which is I think all the other ones

01:28:39 ◼   ► Well, I guess the gold edition had a red

01:28:41 ◼   ► Dot

01:28:44 ◼   ► They matched right? I think they matched the color of the band that it came with

01:28:47 ◼   ► Oh, I forget so the ones that came with a red band had a red dot. I

01:28:51 ◼   ► Have to tell you I I still and again, you know, we were talking about naming being yeah, you know inscrutable. I

01:28:58 ◼   ► Found that I still think I still cannot believe that they put a red dot on every Apple watch that has cellular networking

01:29:07 ◼   ► I think people would know that you had the new watch John. Well, yeah, but who gives a shit it clashes with so many bands

01:29:14 ◼   ► and watch faces like so I right now I have my watch on and I have the forget

01:29:23 ◼   ► which one but it's from the original year of the nylon okay straps the the

01:29:28 ◼   ► one that's closest to black just a dark gray nylon strap which is my favorite

01:29:32 ◼   ► Apple watch strap ever made and I'm using the the Explorer watch face the

01:29:40 ◼   ► one that has red hands. And so it actually looks great with the red dot. But there are

01:29:48 ◼   ► other watch straps in other colors that just don't go with the color red. And there's,

01:29:53 ◼   ► you know, dozens. There's like 20-some different colors of watch faces that you can configure,

01:30:01 ◼   ► most of which don't go well with red. It's always been very baffling to me. So this new

01:30:06 ◼   ► one, instead of having an entire red dot, I'm guessing that this is a cellular model

01:30:09 ◼   ► and there's just a red ring around the outside of it.

01:30:14 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:30:14 ◼   ► - I still don't get why it's red, frankly,

01:30:17 ◼   ► but it's so much more subtle that I can accept it.

01:30:22 ◼   ► I think this is--

01:30:23 ◼   ► - It's funny 'cause the Pixel 2 has a red power button

01:30:25 ◼   ► and people just went gaga over it.

01:30:27 ◼   ► And to me it was the same thing as the red crown.

01:30:30 ◼   ► I just don't want them to pre-choose colors.

01:30:32 ◼   ► - Right, and then the center of the crown

01:30:35 ◼   ► inside the red ring is also gold, which is new.

01:30:38 ◼   ► like previously it was either black or red. It wasn't the color of the actual watch.

01:30:45 ◼   ► I didn't notice the microphone underneath the digital crown, so that's new. I wonder

01:30:48 ◼   ► if that means it might have always on Hey Siri?

01:30:51 ◼   ► Adam: I believe it does. Well, it does because it picks up on the raising of your wrist,

01:30:57 ◼   ► but you don't have to say the words anymore. It's just with iOS 5, it just goes when

01:31:01 ◼   ► it detects the movement in your voice.

01:31:02 ◼   ► Yeah, so maybe that would be the solution to my getting the time when it's when I'm carrying two beverages

01:31:07 ◼   ► Yeah, you have to actually talk to your wife. Don't talk to your watch without pressing about yeah

01:31:13 ◼   ► So the form factor is exciting. I

01:31:16 ◼   ► Think it looks great. I think it definitely you know, and it's it's clearly, you know

01:31:21 ◼   ► It derivative of the original Apple watch design

01:31:26 ◼   ► But I think in a very good way and I think I think in a way that the Apple watch starting with the original form factor

01:31:33 ◼   ► Was sort of a reduction of Apple's modern design

01:31:38 ◼   ► Ethos, you know, I don't know how much one a credit to Johnny. I've personally

01:31:43 ◼   ► I'm sure I would guess Johnny I've personally would not want to take too much individual credit for it

01:31:48 ◼   ► I think the whole team sort of shares this the aesthetic but you know round

01:31:52 ◼   ► rectangles round corners

01:31:55 ◼   ► capsule shapes. That they reduced it to a, it's a minimal amount of area, you know, a watch is so

01:32:05 ◼   ► small that, you know, I think they nailed it right from the beginning that they have sort of like,

01:32:11 ◼   ► they came up with an iconic basic idea right away that they could, I really do mean this,

01:32:17 ◼   ► I think that they could stick with for well over a decade. I mean, it's the watch that Steve Jobs

01:32:23 ◼   ► has in that photo and that Princess Leia is wearing Return of the Jedi so you can't go wrong.

01:32:26 ◼   ► Right. I could honestly see like 15 years from now a new Apple Watch that is very obviously derived

01:32:33 ◼   ► from the designs we're already familiar with. And when you look there's a whole bunch of new

01:32:37 ◼   ► Android, no they don't call it Android Watch, I forget what they call it, watch OS or something,

01:32:41 ◼   ► watch something, I forget what Google calls it, but there's a bunch of new round ones that came

01:32:45 ◼   ► out and you see when they go through the interface that it just cuts off all the text all the time

01:32:49 ◼   ► as you're panning through it.

01:32:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, I know that there's a certain number of people

01:32:53 ◼   ► who have always not liked that Apple Watch

01:32:58 ◼   ► is fundamentally a rectangular display.

01:33:02 ◼   ► They want a round watch.

01:33:03 ◼   ► They think round watches look better

01:33:04 ◼   ► and there's tons of competing smartwatches that are round.

01:33:07 ◼   ► - Whole phones look like bananas.

01:33:10 ◼   ► I mean, there's a difference

01:33:10 ◼   ► when a phone becomes a computational product.

01:33:13 ◼   ► - Right, I feel, and I'm a person I typically

01:33:18 ◼   ► almost always use an analog style Apple watch face.

01:33:22 ◼   ► - Yes.

01:33:23 ◼   ► - Like I said, I'm using the Explorer one now.

01:33:24 ◼   ► The one I use most often is utility,

01:33:27 ◼   ► but you can put a round watch face on a rectangular watch

01:33:32 ◼   ► and it works to me.

01:33:34 ◼   ► It works very well aesthetically,

01:33:36 ◼   ► but you can't display rectangular data on a round watch

01:33:41 ◼   ► and have it look anything other than awful, in my opinion.

01:33:46 ◼   ► And there's a lot of the watch faces

01:33:49 ◼   ► that Apple Watch offers are fundamentally rectangular.

01:33:52 ◼   ► And a lot of the other things you do on Apple Watch

01:33:56 ◼   ► want to naturally want to present their data to you

01:33:59 ◼   ► on a rectangular scrollable display.

01:34:01 ◼   ► - Yeah, it just makes sense because it's almost like

01:34:04 ◼   ► you have center vision and peripheral vision

01:34:06 ◼   ► and a lot of the complications and now like

01:34:08 ◼   ► with the screenshot, the super complications,

01:34:10 ◼   ► those that get to exist in the periphery

01:34:11 ◼   ► where if it was a round face, you'd lose the benefit

01:34:14 ◼   ► of having all that extra data.

01:34:15 ◼   ► - Yep, and that is a perfect segue

01:34:18 ◼   ► to the discussion of this watch face

01:34:20 ◼   ► that we see in this screenshot,

01:34:21 ◼   ► which to me is the single biggest and most intriguing leak

01:34:25 ◼   ► of the whole duopoly of the total two scoops

01:34:29 ◼   ► that 9to5Mac had, right?

01:34:31 ◼   ► Because like I said, just to recap,

01:34:33 ◼   ► we knew the two sizes of the iPhone XS.

01:34:36 ◼   ► We knew that they were gonna have gold,

01:34:39 ◼   ► and I think the most easily guessable gold,

01:34:40 ◼   ► given that it would be stainless steel,

01:34:42 ◼   ► would be this very gold finger, gold, gold, right?

01:34:45 ◼   ► Shiny, blingy gold.

01:34:47 ◼   ► - It's E3PO gold.

01:34:48 ◼   ► - Right, so really the biggest thing

01:34:51 ◼   ► from the iPhone X leak is the name of iPhone XS.

01:34:54 ◼   ► So with the watch, the fact that the display is bigger

01:34:58 ◼   ► was rumored, 'cause apparently the display industry

01:35:01 ◼   ► is the absolute leakiest in the entire world.

01:35:04 ◼   ► The fact that it looks like it's thinner

01:35:07 ◼   ► seems like a very obvious thing for Apple to do,

01:35:09 ◼   ► whether it was rumored or not.

01:35:10 ◼   ► It just, it seems like a very obvious idea.

01:35:13 ◼   ► Even the fact that they don't use an entire red circle

01:35:18 ◼   ► for the inside of the crown seems like an obvious idea

01:35:21 ◼   ► because it was a terrible idea in the first place.

01:35:24 ◼   ► But then this watch face is like, wow.

01:35:27 ◼   ► It really is to me.

01:35:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, no, I mean, like there's like nine complications.

01:35:33 ◼   ► You've got four in each corner, four in the center,

01:35:35 ◼   ► and then one in the actual time scale around the hands.

01:35:39 ◼   ► - And so in the watch world, if you don't count,

01:35:43 ◼   ► and technically speaking, the hour, minutes, and seconds

01:35:45 ◼   ► count as complications.

01:35:47 ◼   ► Like in the watch world, this word complication,

01:35:49 ◼   ► which I know some people who don't care about watches

01:35:53 ◼   ► in general either find confusing

01:35:55 ◼   ► or they find downright annoying or they find baffling

01:35:58 ◼   ► because they think complication sounds like a bad thing,

01:36:01 ◼   ► not a good thing.

01:36:02 ◼   ► Apple's borrowed this word from the watch world.

01:36:04 ◼   ► And in the watch world, complication equates

01:36:08 ◼   ► to what we in the computer world call features.

01:36:10 ◼   ► So if it is something your watch can do,

01:36:13 ◼   ► it's a complication.

01:36:14 ◼   ► An hour, minute, and second count as complications.

01:36:18 ◼   ► So a simple watch that only tells you the hour

01:36:21 ◼   ► and the minute, it adds two complications,

01:36:23 ◼   ► hour and minute.

01:36:24 ◼   ► And then if you add a second hand,

01:36:25 ◼   ► it's a third complication.

01:36:26 ◼   ► But we won't count that.

01:36:27 ◼   ► Let's say we don't count hour, minute, second.

01:36:29 ◼   ► That's got nine complications.

01:36:32 ◼   ► 10 if you count Wednesday is different than the 23rd.

01:36:37 ◼   ► And in the watch world, that would definitely count

01:36:38 ◼   ► as two complications, so that's 10.

01:36:40 ◼   ► - They're also more informational,

01:36:42 ◼   ► like you have a stopwatch with the time that's left.

01:36:44 ◼   ► You have the temperature, which the temperature gauge,

01:36:45 ◼   ► UV with UV index, you have the sunset with the time

01:36:48 ◼   ► that it sunrises and sets.

01:36:51 ◼   ► It's just so much information,

01:36:52 ◼   ► there's so much data contained in this watch face.

01:36:54 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's somewhat annoying to me

01:36:57 ◼   ► when I'm using a stopwatch,

01:36:58 ◼   ► and I wanna just keep my regular watch up,

01:37:00 ◼   ► but if the stopwatch is running and you raise your wrist

01:37:02 ◼   ► and it shows you the actual stopwatch app.

01:37:05 ◼   ► So, hopefully, they're moving away from that. But yeah, so it's got a stopwatch.

01:37:10 ◼   ► It shows you—or is it a stopwatch or a timer?

01:37:12 ◼   ► Oh, maybe it's a timer, yeah.

01:37:14 ◼   ► Because it looks like it might be counting down. I don't know. But either way, it's

01:37:18 ◼   ► either a stopwatch or a timer, and it shows you how much time is left, and there's a

01:37:22 ◼   ► little bar showing you a thing.

01:37:24 ◼   ► It's almost like Tufti-esque, right? Like, on the informational data displays, how you

01:37:29 ◼   ► can put large amounts of density without making it non-parseable to the human mind. And this

01:37:34 ◼   ► seems like they really took a page out of that book. It is truly fascinating

01:37:38 ◼   ► from a design perspective. It is also to me the most Apple watchy looking watch

01:37:44 ◼   ► face I've seen yet. I don't know that I personally will use this watch face. It

01:37:49 ◼   ► might be I'm a bit of a minimalist. I often use the utility with just the date like

01:37:58 ◼   ► Saturday the first showing in the traditional three o'clock thing and the

01:38:01 ◼   ► temperature in a corner, and I leave the other three corners empty just because I like, I just

01:38:07 ◼   ► like the way it looks. But it is fascinating to me, you know, I was talking to Panzareno

01:38:14 ◼   ► and Matthew Panzareno about this, and he really loves it. And he compared it to Iron Man's

01:38:21 ◼   ► HUD display that you sometimes see from Tony Stark's perspective in the Iron Man/Avengers

01:38:28 ◼   ► movies, which if you ever freeze frame and just really, really look at them, they put

01:38:35 ◼   ► an enormous amount of thought into. It's not just like—even if it's only up for

01:38:39 ◼   ► like a second, there's like a real logic, and it's like, "Oh, that's really cool

01:38:45 ◼   ► stuff," you know? That's all there available in this line of sight.

01:38:48 ◼   ► Steven: Yeah, it's just so—this to me is like the dashboard. If I want to see maximum

01:38:53 ◼   ► information at a glance, I would use this. Or maybe when you're working out and you

01:38:57 ◼   ► want a ton of different stuff or you're traveling and you want a bunch of information and you

01:39:00 ◼   ► could swipe to something way simpler if you just want to relax and kick around.

01:39:04 ◼   ► And that's what I like about this kind of watch too is that you can have a workout phase,

01:39:07 ◼   ► a travel phase, a casual phase.

01:39:10 ◼   ► I'm at work and I need to keep track of all my meetings phase and just keep going.

01:39:15 ◼   ► Well, and putting the meet, you know, your next appointment, your next calendar appointment

01:39:19 ◼   ► on the hour hand circular diameter of the watch face is really clever. I don't know why that

01:39:32 ◼   ► wasn't thought of before. Like, is it at the top because it's 12 p.m. and if it was at 6 p.m. would

01:39:36 ◼   ► it be on the bottom? I have so many questions. Yeah, I'm not quite sure why it's at the top

01:39:40 ◼   ► instead of the bottom. But that would, it's kind of interesting if that's the explanation. Like,

01:39:44 ◼   ► But that did occur to me, and I thought it would look better at the bottom, but I don't

01:39:50 ◼   ► know.

01:39:51 ◼   ► Because it's curved, it lets you put way more characters in the string than if it went

01:39:55 ◼   ► straight across.

01:39:57 ◼   ► I love this temperature complication.

01:39:59 ◼   ► It doesn't just tell you the current complication, but it shows you the daily high and low for

01:40:05 ◼   ► the day and includes a dot for where the current temperature is on that scale.

01:40:12 ◼   ► There's a UVI index, right?

01:40:14 ◼   ► the ultraviolet, you know, that lets you know if you should be wearing sunscreen, I guess, or not,

01:40:18 ◼   ► which I can only presume comes from some kind of online weather source. It's not, you know,

01:40:26 ◼   ► like somebody on Twitter was speculating that maybe it had the watch as a UV sensor because

01:40:30 ◼   ► there's a, I'm going to get it wrong, but there's a company like L'Oreal or somebody who's come out

01:40:35 ◼   ► with a thing that you can put on a fingernail that would show the UV index so that somebody who's

01:40:41 ◼   ► wearing this would know whether they need sunscreen or not, which is interesting, but

01:40:49 ◼   ► if it's actually based on a sensor, then it wouldn't give you any useful information

01:40:52 ◼   ► while you're indoors, which is typically also when you would need to put the sunscreen

01:40:57 ◼   ► on. Once you're outside in the sunshine, it's a little too late. So it seems pretty

01:41:03 ◼   ► obvious it would come in the same way that the temperature doesn't come from a thermometer

01:41:06 ◼   ► on the watch. It comes from a weather service.

01:41:09 ◼   ► Yeah, and luckily it doesn't annoyingly tell you that weather service every time you

01:41:13 ◼   ► ask like HomePod.

01:41:14 ◼   ► Yeah, and then in the center it has the date at the top, both the day of the week and the

01:41:19 ◼   ► date.

01:41:20 ◼   ► It has an iTunes controller, a music controller.

01:41:25 ◼   ► It has of course your activity rings over at the 3 o'clock side, and then it has a…

01:41:29 ◼   ► Planet Earth.

01:41:32 ◼   ► Yeah, that's not the moon phase, right?

01:41:35 ◼   ► It's Earth?

01:41:36 ◼   ► No, I don't think so.

01:41:37 ◼   ► I was thinking moon phase at first, but I don't know.

01:41:39 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't know what that is either. But yeah, and I love that they've made the

01:41:42 ◼   ► watch face into a full-fledged launcher because the carousel never really made sense at watch

01:41:48 ◼   ► scale and it's just so much better to put the stuff that you really need up front and

01:41:52 ◼   ► center just to tap away.

01:41:54 ◼   ► Yeah. Yeah. That's what I'm hoping they're going. I'm hoping that that's exactly where

01:41:58 ◼   ► they're going. You know that. So instead of if I'm listening to music, having, you

01:42:03 ◼   ► know, the now playing come by default every time I look at my wrist, just make it easy

01:42:07 ◼   ► for me to go from my regular watch face to a nice tappable target to jump to now playing

01:42:13 ◼   ► if I really want to do that.

01:42:15 ◼   ► Jared Polin (01:01): Yeah.

01:42:16 ◼   ► Dave Asprey A terribly exciting stuff and very, very thoughtful.

01:42:20 ◼   ► Again, is it too many colors for me personally?

01:42:23 ◼   ► Maybe, but I don't think it's aesthetically displeasing.

01:42:27 ◼   ► I think it's actually a very, very comely watch face.

01:42:31 ◼   ► I really think it looks very, very cool.

01:42:33 ◼   ► Yeah, I like it a lot and also this is only one watch face. I would love to see how this

01:42:39 ◼   ► approach pertains to so many other watch faces that they have.

01:42:42 ◼   ► Mm-hmm. I mean, it's it seems like it would be obvious for certain faces like like Siri

01:42:48 ◼   ► like the Siri watch face. Yeah, which they would just put you just be able to see more

01:42:53 ◼   ► of the scrollable content on the face at a time.

01:42:58 ◼   ► And modular would be great for people who don't like analog faces.

01:43:00 ◼   ► Yeah, well, that modular seems interesting to me because think about how much more information

01:43:05 ◼   ► rich that one could get or presumably will get. And that is, you know, it's—I see people with

01:43:13 ◼   ► that face all the time. It's obviously a very popular face. I know that there are a lot of

01:43:18 ◼   ► people who just don't like analog time, and it's a great, great digital watch face. But just

01:43:26 ◼   ► Just thinking, looking at how much more information rich this watch face is for an analog watch

01:43:32 ◼   ► face, Boy Modular could get really, really information rich.

01:43:37 ◼   ► And if they could figure out how to make the photo face just much more complicated too,

01:43:42 ◼   ► then you, it would be a lot of the customization requests would just go out the window.

01:43:46 ◼   ► Definitely.

01:43:47 ◼   ► Because I could just put super, I could put like the original Superman art on there and

01:43:50 ◼   ► just have my Superman watch.

01:43:53 ◼   ► So this is terribly exciting, and I can't help but think that the inclusion of this

01:43:57 ◼   ► watch face in the league is the single most crushing disappointment on the team because

01:44:03 ◼   ► this would have been a huge surprise.

01:44:07 ◼   ► Yeah, it would have been a showstopper, like huge applause.

01:44:10 ◼   ► Right.

01:44:11 ◼   ► Yeah, poor Kevin Lynch.

01:44:14 ◼   ► I know.

01:44:15 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:44:16 ◼   ► Actually, I don't know if it would have been Kevin Lynch or Jeff Williams who would

01:44:18 ◼   ► be up there when this slide comes on.

01:44:20 ◼   ► Probably Jeff.

01:44:21 ◼   ► I mean, Kevin does a dub-dub session.

01:44:22 ◼   ► I guess you're right Kevin does the dubbed and in a way that the Craig does the iOS, you know

01:44:29 ◼   ► The OS one he might come out to demo what after Jeff introduces. Yeah, I think Jeff introduces it. Yeah, I think so, too

01:44:34 ◼   ► You're right. Yeah, I think this would have been or it still will be shown and yeah, Jeff Williams thing like if this exact

01:44:40 ◼   ► Image was intended as a slide. I don't I don't think that Apple doesn't use it just because it leaked

01:44:45 ◼   ► I think they know they just

01:44:47 ◼   ► Bite the bullet and pretend that the leak never happened and charge full full steam ahead

01:44:52 ◼   ► Well, I mean remember Steve famously going you might have seen the iPhone 4 before right, right

01:44:56 ◼   ► Well, that was the iPhone 4 which leaked. Yeah, I mean that's hardly even called it again hard to call that a leak the one

01:45:03 ◼   ► yeah, you know the

01:45:05 ◼   ► Phone that some poor engineer who was field testing it

01:45:08 ◼   ► Inadvertently left in a restaurant and was picked up by some unscrupulous people who sold it to gizmodo

01:45:17 ◼   ► Who then leaked it was truly distilled to this date the biggest leak in Apple history or again?

01:45:24 ◼   ► Not like a leak in terms of it being deliberate, but just a secret

01:45:27 ◼   ► Reveal information that yeah, and it's actually hard to imagine anything

01:45:32 ◼   ► Anything of that magnitude again and like unless a series 4 watch was left on a barstool

01:45:38 ◼   ► Even the series 4 watch to me wouldn't have been as big a leak as the iPhone 4 just because the iPhone 4 was so much

01:45:45 ◼   ► Different yeah than the iPhone 3gs

01:45:49 ◼   ► The only thing I can imagine that we could be compared is if somebody gets a photo of like the car

01:45:55 ◼   ► You know like get at some point before it's officially an unveiled someone leaves an apple car at the charging station

01:46:01 ◼   ► Somebody leaves leaves it in with the with the keys

01:46:06 ◼   ► I'm sure it won't have keys and it won't have an ignition but you know effectively so that somebody could drive off in the Apple

01:46:14 ◼   ► car prototype. It's really hard to imagine. It really is because the car, again, I propose

01:46:20 ◼   ► it as a sort of jokey example, but a car can't be left behind and can't be field tested

01:46:24 ◼   ► secretly, you know, in the way that an iPhone can be put in a case and left, you know, keep

01:46:29 ◼   ► it in the pocket.

01:46:30 ◼   ► Steve McLaughlin Well, just last week, right, the Nissan Leaf

01:46:31 ◼   ► rear-ended or something, one of the Apple autonomous testing cars.

01:46:34 ◼   ► Dave Asprey Oh, really? I didn't see that.

01:46:35 ◼   ► Steve McLaughlin It has to be reported. Yeah, it had to be reported

01:46:37 ◼   ► to the DMV. So, MacRumors found the DMV listing where the Apple car was an autonomous mode

01:46:43 ◼   ► going about one kilometer an hour waiting to merge

01:46:46 ◼   ► onto a road and at least we hit it.

01:46:48 ◼   ► And it wasn't the Apple car's fault at all,

01:46:50 ◼   ► it was human error.

01:46:51 ◼   ► - But even that's not as big, it's not a leak

01:46:53 ◼   ► because it's not like the Apple's testing

01:46:55 ◼   ► autonomous cars are Apple designed cars.

01:46:57 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's a Lexus SUV, yeah.

01:47:00 ◼   ► - So I don't know what to say about it.

01:47:01 ◼   ► Other than that, this seems like a very, very exciting year

01:47:04 ◼   ► for Apple Watch.

01:47:07 ◼   ► I guess cellular was a big deal.

01:47:08 ◼   ► For me in practice, I'm glad I have it.

01:47:11 ◼   ► It's worth 10 bucks a month.

01:47:12 ◼   ► But I can't say I use it that often just because the way I live my life, I really am

01:47:18 ◼   ► not that often separated from my iPhone.

01:47:21 ◼   ► Adam Boffa - So I had to stop using it because Rogers, which is the my phone number is on

01:47:26 ◼   ► Rogers in Canada, which is equivalent roughly to AT&T and doesn't support it.

01:47:30 ◼   ► They never built out the carrier to support it.

01:47:33 ◼   ► So I got a Bell line just so I could use it.

01:47:35 ◼   ► But my normal phone number is not on Bell and Bell's like Verizon.

01:47:39 ◼   ► But they did switch to HSPA plus.

01:47:41 ◼   ► But I just don't want to port my number over there.

01:47:43 ◼   ► So now I'm back to using a Rogers watch and my phone is an LTE phone without any LTE.

01:47:48 ◼   ► Well, I don't have anything else.

01:47:53 ◼   ► That's a wrap for me unless you've got anything else on this you wanted to say before we move

01:47:58 ◼   ► on.

01:47:59 ◼   ► No, I'm looking forward to this because I think we didn't even talk about new iPads.

01:48:02 ◼   ► Maybe JAWS introduces those, maybe not.

01:48:04 ◼   ► And the more affordable MacBook, which has its own naming convention problems all its

01:48:10 ◼   ► But it'll be a fun year just for Apple marketing.

01:48:12 ◼   ► Dave Asprey Yeah, and I don't think, you know, I saw,

01:48:15 ◼   ► you know, some people just are so willing to jump to conclusions. But I saw that Gowness

01:48:20 ◼   ► first leaked a couple of people who tweeted, "Well, they might as well cancel the September

01:48:24 ◼   ► 12 event now." And I don't think that they were sarcastic. I think that they were

01:48:29 ◼   ► actually, you know, like, "It's all ruined for me now because we've seen these two

01:48:33 ◼   ► things." And it's like, they're both significant. There's an awful lot we don't

01:48:39 ◼   ► still. Even we don't even know if the iPad is coming. We certainly suspect that the mid-range,

01:48:45 ◼   ► mid-size iPhone is coming, but there's an awful lot we don't know about that.

01:48:49 ◼   ► Jared Polin And also the story, like these are just two

01:48:53 ◼   ► shots. There's no story here yet.

01:48:55 ◼   ► Dave Asprey Right. I don't know. This Apple Watch face

01:48:59 ◼   ► makes me really think that they've probably gone in and redesigned every single face.

01:49:03 ◼   ► Like I don't, you know, for familiarity's sake, that they might have the same name and

01:49:08 ◼   ► the same basic look. But why not, you know, they could take advantage of these corners

01:49:14 ◼   ► in all the faces in such a…

01:49:16 ◼   ► And if they let like Carrot Weather, have they gone in? Just to throw out a name, I

01:49:19 ◼   ► have no knowledge of this, but I have a bunch of third-party developers gone in and made

01:49:22 ◼   ► these super complications too. Because I'd be really… Did you see Carrot Weather was

01:49:26 ◼   ► doing the iPhone reboot joke on there?

01:49:29 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:49:30 ◼   ► On the weather fork.

01:49:32 ◼   ► Yeah, I did see that. That was in reference to the update your iOS beta, to the latest

01:49:42 ◼   ► beta thing that all of us using the beta have suffered through for the last week.

01:49:46 ◼   ► Yeah. Yeah. Fixed yesterday.

01:49:47 ◼   ► Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if they called a couple of popular complication developers

01:49:52 ◼   ► out a week or two ago and locked them in a room and given them some… I would suggest,

01:50:00 ◼   ► though, that if Carrot's developer is cracking jokes about that, he's probably not locked

01:50:07 ◼   ► up in Kubernetes.

01:50:08 ◼   ► So I'm going to guess Carrot probably didn't, although that he would have been a good choice

01:50:15 ◼   ► because he's a very creative, you know, could have creatively made use of the space.

01:50:19 ◼   ► But boy, that's terribly exciting for somebody who's interested in information design.

01:50:25 ◼   ► And it really is such a fascinating canvas, the watch face for information design.

01:50:33 ◼   ► And it's obvious that Apple is thinking very, very deeply about it.

01:50:40 ◼   ► So that's very exciting.

01:50:41 ◼   ► And if you haven't read Tufte, go out and read Tufte's books on information design,

01:50:43 ◼   ► because it's fascinating and Apple does a lot of really good stuff with it.

01:50:46 ◼   ► Yeah, I totally agree.

01:50:48 ◼   ► His books are probably four of my favorite books that have ever been written, ever.

01:50:51 ◼   ► Absolutely.

01:50:52 ◼   ► I'll put a link to the show notes into his books.

01:50:54 ◼   ► books are very expensive, but they're worth it.

01:50:55 ◼   ► Yes. I'll just say that. All right. Thank you, René.

01:51:01 ◼   ► Thanks, John.

01:51:02 ◼   ► All right. And I will see you soon, which is always an exciting thing to say on these