The Talk Show

00:00:00 ◼   ► I've got this gut feeling like we're recording here on Thursday the 30th

00:00:03 ◼   ► but I've got this feeling like I'm leaving tomorrow and I'm not I've got yes

00:00:08 ◼   ► but I really feel like I feel like I need to rush through the show and pack I've got it just feels

00:00:17 ◼   ► like it's coming so fast I don't know it is it's a lot and I'm not even editing video

00:00:26 ◼   ► I've as you can guess I've got I've done copious research for this episode. Yes, likewise

00:00:33 ◼   ► Man so anyway we are this is the

00:00:38 ◼   ► WWDC WWDC 2019 preview episode of the talk show. I like doing these previews with my good friend Renee Ritchie

00:00:47 ◼   ► For one thing of my lack of preparation you you'll usually have it all in your head

00:00:54 ◼   ► Did you see Brad that rat bastard?

00:00:56 ◼   ► panzerino

00:00:58 ◼   ► Yes, got another got to go into the Star Wars galaxy edge again and

00:01:02 ◼   ► Go on the Millennium Falcon and all that that son of a bitch

00:01:06 ◼   ► He's never could worse was like last month where he got to interview Tim Cook in Florida and then go for a preview

00:01:12 ◼   ► Of the Star Wars ride while wearing unreleased Nikes and I'm sure drinking pappy. I

00:01:17 ◼   ► Don't know about the pappy part but the rest of it was true. Did you see his Instagram - he was like packing for Disney

00:01:24 ◼   ► And it's a suitcase full of sneakers

00:01:26 ◼   ► Living the dream. I mean he engineered the perfect job firms. Yeah, he really did. I really did I gotta warn you

00:01:34 ◼   ► I hope I hope I got all my devices silenced, but we've we had a flash flood warning an hour ago here in Philadelphia

00:01:40 ◼   ► I don't really live on a floodplain. So I should be alright, but you know, it makes all the earth devices

00:01:45 ◼   ► Go go crazy

00:01:48 ◼   ► We were flooded for about a month. I mean like the two lots next to me. We're about under eight feet of water

00:01:53 ◼   ► Yeah, my problem isn't the actual flooding I really you know fingers crossed knock on wood whatever you want to do for good luck

00:01:59 ◼   ► I don't think that where we live were that we're actually at risk of a flood

00:02:03 ◼   ► But like I said for podcasting having your devices start

00:02:07 ◼   ► Make yes emergency broadcast. Yeah, right. It's not not really conducive to good audio

00:02:14 ◼   ► so my apologies if it goes off again, but

00:02:17 ◼   ► anyway

00:02:19 ◼   ► Where to start I've got some follow-up if you don't mind. Yeah

00:02:22 ◼   ► Now you're the only one now that previous episode. This is I think there's like new tags

00:02:26 ◼   ► I actually am way behind on this. I think there's new iTunes tags

00:02:30 ◼   ► for podcasts that include things like

00:02:34 ◼   ► the schedule that the show is published on like you could make it say weekly or

00:02:40 ◼   ► Monthly or something like that

00:02:43 ◼   ► Do you know anything about this at least?

00:02:47 ◼   ► Clients are showing stuff like that. Anyway, I have to look into it, but I can meaning to update the talk shows to

00:02:52 ◼   ► erratically I

00:02:55 ◼   ► Just got done posting

00:02:59 ◼   ► Episode 252 with crew from panic. Yeah, literally at the last time

00:03:05 ◼   ► I was sitting before I sat down to record with you was when I hit finished publishing and linking and all the various stuff for that

00:03:13 ◼   ► So I think everybody who's listening to this show has probably heard that one already

00:03:17 ◼   ► Except you because you couldn't have heard it already because it just went up so you don't know you don't know anything about it

00:03:22 ◼   ► But I'll bet you're excited you want

00:03:24 ◼   ► I will bet that you're excited about the play date. Yeah, absolutely

00:03:28 ◼   ► It's a it's a good litmus test

00:03:31 ◼   ► Enthusiasm for the play date is a good litmus test for people who share my enthusiasm for tech

00:03:39 ◼   ► It's just we live in a wondrous age where people like cable and panic can make a device like this like realistically

00:03:45 ◼   ► Build something that they're dreaming about it's fun. It's amazing. Well with and without

00:03:49 ◼   ► Raising a time or any money they didn't raise they borrowed nothing

00:03:54 ◼   ► They're they're right, you know funding the entire thing off the profits from their existing business

00:03:58 ◼   ► You know, it's like when I wrote about it in the 80s 90s having new platforms

00:04:06 ◼   ► just appear with something that happened every year or two and

00:04:11 ◼   ► You'd get excited and like general magic is one that pops into mind where it was

00:04:16 ◼   ► yeah, this crew like Andy Hertzfeld and I forget who else was involved but

00:04:21 ◼   ► You know Andy Hertzfeld certainly jumps into mind as as one of the primary creators of the original Macintosh, you know

00:04:28 ◼   ► just a bunch of you know guys when women from the

00:04:31 ◼   ► Original Macintosh team were there for that. I didn't think they had a great idea

00:04:36 ◼   ► It was a handheld PDA type thing when we called these things PDAs and they took the desktop metaphor

00:04:42 ◼   ► to

00:04:44 ◼   ► an extreme where it looked more like a video game where there was a desk and then an actual like Rolodex and an actual

00:04:51 ◼   ► Telephone and you interacted with it almost like interacting with like a game

00:04:56 ◼   ► But the pedigree was fantastic, but and you know, it's just exciting, you know, it didn't work out

00:05:02 ◼   ► But it things like that just happened, you know, all of a sudden the Palm Pilot appeared, right?

00:05:06 ◼   ► it was just a new platform and

00:05:08 ◼   ► That one did have legs for you know a decade or so

00:05:12 ◼   ► Stuff like that just happened that doesn't really happen anymore. You know, it's like

00:05:16 ◼   ► And at the highest end, you know of competing, you know with trying to compete with the iPhone or with Android or something like that

00:05:24 ◼   ► It kind of makes sense why new platforms don't just appear because they're so far behind

00:05:29 ◼   ► you you know even Microsoft with with Windows Phone which was I

00:05:34 ◼   ► Would say feature complete right it had it could do everything you wanted to do on a phone

00:05:39 ◼   ► But it just couldn't take off but that's Microsoft like that right now

00:05:42 ◼   ► The single biggest market cap company in the world and you know for the last 20 25 years one of the top two or three

00:05:49 ◼   ► You know richest companies in the world

00:05:52 ◼   ► It it wouldn't make sense for a small company like panic to make like a cell phone OS just yeah too big of a job

00:05:59 ◼   ► That's what makes play date such a brilliant idea that the scope of it is something that's totally within their their capabilities

00:06:06 ◼   ► Yeah, and the remarkable thing about it too is it lets them have complete artistic vision because even if you worked at palm under

00:06:14 ◼   ► Rubenstein right before web OS was announced or at Nintendo with the switch. It was a it's some form this committee's there's accountants

00:06:22 ◼   ► There's people who tell you what it can and can't be and you do have constraints no matter what you're doing

00:06:27 ◼   ► But when you're doing it on your own, especially when you're a company like them

00:06:30 ◼   ► You you can engineer for what you want without having to worry about all the overhead that comes with large companies, right?

00:06:37 ◼   ► No, exactly and that you know

00:06:39 ◼   ► Where was it was it in the blog post?

00:06:43 ◼   ► I forget where cable he didn't talk about on the show but cable wrote about how they went to a

00:06:49 ◼   ► Company in Portland that maybe would help them with the hardware and they kind of went in and everybody was wearing a suit

00:06:55 ◼   ► Maybe it was on Twitter. I forget where the hell he did it, but

00:06:57 ◼   ► You know and they cut they effectively

00:07:01 ◼   ► Got laughed out of the room because the scale was too small and that was that was before then

00:07:06 ◼   ► They then they went on and hooked up with teenage engineering over in Sweden who got it right away

00:07:11 ◼   ► Did the opposite of laughing them out of the room jumped in with two feet and said yeah, let's make this thing real

00:07:16 ◼   ► Yeah, it's contagious when you show it to people they immediately they smile like they're five years old again, right? It's just fun

00:07:24 ◼   ► Yeah now somewhere out there. There's listeners of this show who?

00:07:27 ◼   ► Went through an entire two-hour episode that was all about the play date

00:07:30 ◼   ► And they're not interested not interested in the play date and now they're worried that here. We are squandering important

00:07:36 ◼   ► WWDC preview time talking about it. I just had to continue my enthusiasm for this device and platform

00:07:42 ◼   ► I'm just so happy that well deserved that they're pulling this off

00:07:45 ◼   ► Let's see what else I've got here on my old follow-up list I

00:07:50 ◼   ► Got a couple of things here, you know a couple episodes ago Merlin man was on the show

00:07:54 ◼   ► I don't know if you had a chance to listen

00:07:55 ◼   ► But I was feeling under the weather at the time a lot of people wrote to me asked me if I'm feeling better

00:08:01 ◼   ► Yeah about three days after we recorded it was I've still feeling it was a weird

00:08:05 ◼   ► Some kind of weird bug and it was I usually when I get sick

00:08:09 ◼   ► I would say nine times out of ten when I get sick. It's exactly the same thing

00:08:12 ◼   ► It is a head cold a classic head cold. My nose is blocked. My eyes feel funny and I can't can't breathe, right?

00:08:19 ◼   ► This time it was weird. I don't know what it was

00:08:21 ◼   ► It was and it was I was so weird and I never was 100%

00:08:26 ◼   ► Certain that I was sick until all of a sudden it was like Tuesday night

00:08:29 ◼   ► All of a sudden I just felt better and instantly started sleeping better again, but Merlin turned me on to

00:08:35 ◼   ► because I was having trouble sleeping that was the gist of it and

00:08:38 ◼   ► Merlin turned me on to sleep tracking with the Apple watch. Yeah do this. I

00:08:42 ◼   ► Have a views David underscore Smith's a sleep plus plus. It's very good. I have that I have two apps

00:08:49 ◼   ► I have sleep plus plus from David underscore Smith of

00:08:52 ◼   ► Underscore fame. Yes

00:08:55 ◼   ► And at Merlin's recommendation an app called sleep watch

00:08:59 ◼   ► Now, I don't know why I never I never really looked into this and and I guess because dating back to the series zero Apple

00:09:08 ◼   ► Watch. Yeah

00:09:09 ◼   ► I just have always been it never really been in the habit of sleeping with my Apple watch on I do like to sleep

00:09:13 ◼   ► with a watch

00:09:14 ◼   ► But I usually take it off put it on the charger and put like a mechanical watch on in case I want to check the

00:09:18 ◼   ► time in the middle of the night or something like that. But, and the other thing too is

00:09:24 ◼   ► I sort of figured it was like doing a workout where you have to start and stop it like you

00:09:30 ◼   ► tell your watch or go into bed tell your watch you woke up and then it measures all this

00:09:34 ◼   ► stuff and I just when I go to bed I just want to jump into bed and fall asleep and when

00:09:38 ◼   ► I wake up I don't think I can't think of stuff like that I'm a very slow starter shocker

00:09:43 ◼   ► But it turns out you don't need to do that.

00:09:45 ◼   ► You just wear your Apple watch, go to sleep, and these apps detect everything they need

00:09:51 ◼   ► to detect automatically.

00:09:53 ◼   ► Literally no start, no stop.

00:09:55 ◼   ► I don't have watch apps installed from either of those apps.

00:10:01 ◼   ► Your watch just the biometric data that the Apple watch naturally takes and then transmits

00:10:07 ◼   ► back to your iPhone securely.

00:10:09 ◼   ► You grant these apps access to your health data.

00:10:13 ◼   ► These are iPhone apps, and they just automatically do this.

00:10:17 ◼   ► And it's really interesting to me.

00:10:20 ◼   ► And because you literally have to do nothing other than the only thing you really have

00:10:23 ◼   ► to do is figure out some sort of schedule for charging your Apple Watch other than overnight.

00:10:30 ◼   ► So you know, the most obvious is, you know, like when you're in the shower, something

00:10:33 ◼   ► like that, which gets me most of the way to 100%.

00:10:38 ◼   ► You know, find another time throughout the day to give it a little bit of a charge and

00:10:42 ◼   ► it works. Fascinating stuff. It really is. I really can't believe how—and I just can't

00:10:49 ◼   ► believe how totally automatic it is.

00:10:51 ◼   ► Benji Farr, Jr. Yeah, and then the other thing is you have to remember to go look at it and

00:10:54 ◼   ► then try to figure out what it all means and how you can improve things and if you're

00:10:58 ◼   ► getting too little sleep or you're not sleeping well during certain periods, if you're getting

00:11:01 ◼   ► enough REM sleep, which is always interesting for me.

00:11:05 ◼   ► Well, I let both apps—I granted both of these apps permission to send me notifications.

00:11:12 ◼   ► And I think both of them do the same thing where at some point in the morning or for

00:11:16 ◼   ► me afternoon, right after I get up, they just send me one alert a day with like, "Here's

00:11:23 ◼   ► a summary of your night before."

00:11:26 ◼   ► I will say that I think Sleep Watch is a little bit more accurate at detecting my sleep times,

00:11:34 ◼   ► But it's close.

00:11:35 ◼   ► They're both close to an uncanny degree at showing it.

00:11:41 ◼   ► And for things like today, I was still sleeping, but I heard the doorbell package arrived.

00:11:49 ◼   ► And both of them have this five-minute gap in my morning where I knew I was—I just

00:11:56 ◼   ► remembered thinking like, "Hey, I'll be interested to check if these apps—what these

00:11:59 ◼   ► app show for that five-minute stretch around 9.30 in the morning, and both of them had

00:12:05 ◼   ► it. Really, really interesting. So I thank Merlin. I thank David_Smith. I thank the makers

00:12:11 ◼   ► of SleepWatch. But for anybody out there who's never really tried it, thinking like I did

00:12:18 ◼   ► that it would be a pain in the butt that you wouldn't keep up with, really, I can't hurt

00:12:22 ◼   ► to try these apps. You can try them for free, and it's really interesting.

00:12:26 ◼   ► - It's interesting to see if Apple Sherlock's that

00:12:28 ◼   ► at some point in watchOS and Nintendo,

00:12:30 ◼   ► I don't know if you saw it, but earlier this week,

00:12:31 ◼   ► Nintendo announced their version.

00:12:33 ◼   ► They're making a sleeping game and a sleeping accessory.

00:12:38 ◼   ► - No.

00:12:39 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's, I think it's called Pokemon sleep or something

00:12:41 ◼   ► and then you put this little bracelet on

00:12:43 ◼   ► while you're sleeping.

00:12:44 ◼   ► - Are you putting me on?

00:12:46 ◼   ► - No, they said that we've revolutionized walking

00:12:48 ◼   ► by rewarding you for doing walking with game points

00:12:50 ◼   ► and now we want to do the same thing for sleep.

00:12:53 ◼   ► So they're working with Niantic,

00:12:54 ◼   ► which is the Google spinoff that did Pokemon Go with them.

00:12:57 ◼   ► And they're making an accessory,

00:12:58 ◼   ► it's called the plus plus, I think,

00:13:00 ◼   ► 'cause previously they had just a plus.

00:13:01 ◼   ► So the better thing than plus is plus plus.

00:13:04 ◼   ► And it's a sleep thing and you'll get rewarded

00:13:06 ◼   ► with game events and bonuses and stuff

00:13:09 ◼   ► if you wear it while you're sleeping.

00:13:10 ◼   ► - Not to be confused with sleep, plus plus.

00:13:13 ◼   ► - No, well, I think David has a case.

00:13:15 ◼   ► - I wouldn't be surprised,

00:13:16 ◼   ► I would not be surprised if this gets Sherlock'd by iOS,

00:13:21 ◼   ► which will lead us into a discussion

00:13:23 ◼   ► of what might be coming in iOS 13.

00:13:25 ◼   ► It just seems natural.

00:13:26 ◼   ► And it really does seem like the watch is already collecting

00:13:30 ◼   ► the data that needs to be there.

00:13:31 ◼   ► Like I said, you don't press Start, you don't press Stop,

00:13:33 ◼   ► you don't say, OK, I'm up.

00:13:35 ◼   ► I mean, you can adjust it manually later if you want to,

00:13:37 ◼   ► if it got it wrong or something like that,

00:13:39 ◼   ► or if, I guess, like, if you didn't have the watch on

00:13:43 ◼   ► or something.

00:13:45 ◼   ► So I, you know--

00:13:46 ◼   ► And they have bedtime in the clock app already.

00:13:49 ◼   ► It just doesn't really do anything interactive yet.

00:13:51 ◼   ► Yeah, and I don't want that.

00:13:52 ◼   ► You can set these apps to give you suggestions

00:13:54 ◼   ► for like, tell you when to go to bed.

00:13:55 ◼   ► I can't have that.

00:13:57 ◼   ► - No, it just annoys you

00:14:00 ◼   ► because you know you have more stuff to do.

00:14:02 ◼   ► - Or I'm not finished with a movie or something.

00:14:04 ◼   ► - Yeah, totally.

00:14:05 ◼   ► - I'm not going to bed before I finish the movie.

00:14:08 ◼   ► So anyway, sleep tracking, give it a shot.

00:14:10 ◼   ► I cannot believe that I was,

00:14:12 ◼   ► how ignorant I was about how automatic it could be.

00:14:15 ◼   ► A couple of episodes ago,

00:14:18 ◼   ► I don't even know how many at this point,

00:14:20 ◼   ► this has been sitting in my follow-up queue,

00:14:22 ◼   ► I complained about how hard it is to connect AirPods to your Mac.

00:14:29 ◼   ► And what I want, like with that utility from Gee Rambo, AirBuddy, you open it up near your

00:14:37 ◼   ► Mac and you get a little nice window, sort of like the one you got on iOS, except his

00:14:43 ◼   ► has a button that says connect and then you can hit the connect and then it pairs them.

00:14:47 ◼   ► I want the iOS one to have that button too.

00:14:49 ◼   ► I could switch when I switch between my iPad and my phone. I want it to be easier a

00:14:54 ◼   ► couple people told me

00:14:57 ◼   ► That you can on the Mac connect them using the volume menu bar item

00:15:03 ◼   ► I didn't realize this because I've turned off the volume menu bar item

00:15:08 ◼   ► years ago, you know out of some sort of effort to

00:15:15 ◼   ► to make some sense out of the gazillion apps

00:15:19 ◼   ► that want to have an icon up in your menu bar on the Mac.

00:15:24 ◼   ► So I didn't need the volume one.

00:15:26 ◼   ► I have volume keyboard controls.

00:15:28 ◼   ► I think I have it on my iMac, but on my MacBook, I don't.

00:15:31 ◼   ► I just use the buttons on my keyboard for volume,

00:15:35 ◼   ► but I didn't realize that the volume menu bar icon

00:15:37 ◼   ► has a way to connect them.

00:15:39 ◼   ► And I figured I would mention,

00:15:40 ◼   ► while I speak about this problem

00:15:42 ◼   ► having way too many menus up there in the menu bar. Make a little recommendation. There's

00:15:46 ◼   ► two apps that I know of that help you manage this. The one that's been around the longest

00:15:50 ◼   ► is called Bartender. It's an app utility you use that lets you hide and show menu bar icons

00:15:57 ◼   ► up there and then you have just a little thing that you can press to show the ones that you've

00:16:01 ◼   ► hidden. So they're there. You can get them, but they're not always there. Like at least

00:16:04 ◼   ► on my 13-inch MacBook, a lot of times if I use an app with a lot of menus like BB Edit

00:16:10 ◼   ► or some of the pro apps, anything that has a lot of menus. You get like a collision where

00:16:16 ◼   ► the icons coming in from the right collide with the help menu coming in on the left from

00:16:21 ◼   ► the actual menu. Bartender can totally solve that. There's another one called vanilla,

00:16:26 ◼   ► which I was using for a while, but I think Bartender is more polished, at least version

00:16:30 ◼   ► three. Do you use any either of these utilities?

00:16:32 ◼   ► No, mine is just like an ever increasing junk drawer of many. And I should have known to

00:16:37 ◼   ► look for something, but it's just more and more stuff builds up in there. And since I

00:16:40 ◼   ► room I haven't had to deal with it. I think I might be misremembering but I think older versions of

00:16:45 ◼   ► Bartender they add like a Bartender item and then you hit that item and then a sub menu bar opened

00:16:53 ◼   ► underneath the menu bar with all the ones you stashed away. I found that distasteful. Bartender 3

00:16:58 ◼   ► instead gives you you can set the icon to something else including like a guy that looks

00:17:03 ◼   ► like a bartender like in a tuxedo but the default is just a little dot dot dot which means more. You

00:17:09 ◼   ► You click the dot, dot, dot and it toggles between the ones you're showing now and the

00:17:13 ◼   ► ones in your other set.

00:17:15 ◼   ► So it's like you have two sets.

00:17:16 ◼   ► The main one that's in your regularly visible, hit the dot, dot, dot and it switches to all

00:17:21 ◼   ► the alternates.

00:17:22 ◼   ► I like it a lot and it only costs a couple of bucks.

00:17:24 ◼   ► Well worth it.

00:17:25 ◼   ► What else here in the follow up?

00:17:29 ◼   ► The other thing is that on iOS, I did know this, that you can go to control center on

00:17:35 ◼   ► on iOS, go up there to the top right, pull down,

00:17:38 ◼   ► and go to the media playback thing in Control Center,

00:17:41 ◼   ► and then hit the AirPlay looking button,

00:17:45 ◼   ► and you can switch to your AirPods from that.

00:17:50 ◼   ► I knew about that, but it's not a great solution

00:17:53 ◼   ► for quickly pairing it to another device in all cases,

00:17:56 ◼   ► because for me, a lot of the time,

00:17:58 ◼   ► let's say I have it set to my iPad.

00:18:01 ◼   ► I have my AirPods paired with my iPad,

00:18:03 ◼   ► And a lot of times when I want to quickly switch them

00:18:06 ◼   ► to my phone is because I'm on a phone call.

00:18:09 ◼   ► Like somebody called me or I called somebody

00:18:11 ◼   ► and I'm like, well, I wanna,

00:18:12 ◼   ► I like doing all my phone calls with AirPods.

00:18:14 ◼   ► I think it sounds better.

00:18:16 ◼   ► I love having it in both of my ears.

00:18:18 ◼   ► You know, it just seems like a convenient way

00:18:20 ◼   ► to make phone calls.

00:18:21 ◼   ► But when you're on a phone call,

00:18:22 ◼   ► you can't use the media playback controls

00:18:24 ◼   ► because it's not media, right?

00:18:26 ◼   ► So it doesn't work for that.

00:18:27 ◼   ► So I appreciate the suggestion to everybody who sent it.

00:18:29 ◼   ► And it's good to know that for media playback,

00:18:32 ◼   ► you can go up to Control Center and do it.

00:18:34 ◼   ► But I still think there should be an easier way.

00:18:35 ◼   ► I think there should just be like an optional dedicated

00:18:38 ◼   ► AirPods button right there in Control Center.

00:18:40 ◼   ► And you tap it and it just quickly pairs your main AirPods.

00:18:44 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:18:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, the thing is that there's a contextual control

00:18:47 ◼   ► in phone app once it detects the AirPods,

00:18:49 ◼   ► but if it doesn't detect them,

00:18:50 ◼   ► there's no way to solve that problem.

00:18:51 ◼   ► And the thing that's hysterical to me is that

00:18:53 ◼   ► if you enable it, there's the remote listening button

00:18:56 ◼   ► gets front and center on Control Center,

00:18:59 ◼   ► but you can't turn on the AirPods

00:19:01 ◼   ► to actually turn on remote listening

00:19:03 ◼   ► without going into a buried menu setting.

00:19:05 ◼   ► They just need to think that through some more.

00:19:08 ◼   ► - And then what was the last one?

00:19:09 ◼   ► I think the last one,

00:19:10 ◼   ► I think it was the episode Paul Kvassus was on

00:19:11 ◼   ► when we were talking about

00:19:12 ◼   ► how there is a battery replacement program for AirPods.

00:19:17 ◼   ► It's like 50 bucks a piece.

00:19:18 ◼   ► And I was confused as to whether it was before

00:19:21 ◼   ► or after the warranty.

00:19:25 ◼   ► And I think it's before the warranty expires,

00:19:27 ◼   ► get the $50 per AirPod replacement thing. So that's it for follow-up.

00:19:34 ◼   ► Anyway, there's been a lot of controversy. A lot of people are bitching about the AirPods.

00:19:42 ◼   ► There was a really bad piece, in my opinion, on Vice that I didn't link to. The McElope

00:19:47 ◼   ► did a good job of sort of dismantling it. Like, "I hate AirPods, and then you shouldn't

00:19:53 ◼   ► them. And it really seemed to be not about AirPods or their place in our society, but

00:20:01 ◼   ► rather the writers' hang-ups and her personal problem.

00:20:07 ◼   ► There's this really weird trend, and this really real trend, I see it like in the Outline

00:20:13 ◼   ► and in Business Insider, Tech Insider, a lot where someone goes, like they'll go to an

00:20:18 ◼   ► Apple store and they'll have to wait five minutes, and that prompts an entire article

00:20:22 ◼   ► about how the Apple store is terrible now,

00:20:25 ◼   ► or their iPhone is terrible.

00:20:26 ◼   ► And it's not like we sent 10 people

00:20:28 ◼   ► to 10 different Apple stores at 10 different times

00:20:31 ◼   ► and recorded the, it's not like old school reporting.

00:20:33 ◼   ► It's just like, ah, you know, this was bad.

00:20:35 ◼   ► I'm gonna complain about it in article form.

00:20:37 ◼   ► And they publish it.

00:20:38 ◼   ► And it's really strange to me reading that

00:20:41 ◼   ► when I'm used to reading, you know, actual journalism.

00:20:44 ◼   ► - And any other piece that was out there this week

00:20:45 ◼   ► was about the recyclability of AirPods

00:20:48 ◼   ► and that they're a tragedy, a disaster. And I guess I kind of get it. I mean, ideally,

00:20:57 ◼   ► it is a little wasteful that two, three years in, a battery wears out and it makes financial sense

00:21:04 ◼   ► just to buy a new pair rather than replace the battery. And it's just the world we live in now

00:21:11 ◼   ► where batteries are built in. Even the Playdate has a built-in battery. I talked about that.

00:21:17 ◼   ► You just don't, you don't see many devices these days

00:21:21 ◼   ► with replaceable batteries.

00:21:23 ◼   ► - I mean, there's a design cost,

00:21:24 ◼   ► like, and that's the thing people don't think about.

00:21:25 ◼   ► They'll often say, I want it to be repairable,

00:21:27 ◼   ► but you can't change anything about it.

00:21:29 ◼   ► And that's not how it works.

00:21:30 ◼   ► Like AirPods, where you could unscrew them

00:21:32 ◼   ► and put in a AAA battery and screw them back on,

00:21:35 ◼   ► would have to be designed completely differently.

00:21:37 ◼   ► It'd also be much bigger.

00:21:38 ◼   ► They would be much heavier.

00:21:40 ◼   ► I mean, you can have whatever you want.

00:21:42 ◼   ► You just can't have it all at the same time.

00:21:44 ◼   ► And Apple does recycle them.

00:21:45 ◼   ► Like they put, I forget, was it Lisa Jackson or somebody

00:21:48 ◼   ► said that there's a remarkable amount of material

00:21:50 ◼   ► that they can get from them, but battery is just fuel.

00:21:53 ◼   ► It's like you fill up the tank and eventually that wears out

00:21:55 ◼   ► and you have to replace it.

00:21:56 ◼   ► And in these cases, just think of the AirPod as a battery.

00:21:59 ◼   ► You have to swap it out.

00:22:01 ◼   ► It's a very tiny, tiny package,

00:22:03 ◼   ► mostly a battery with a couple of sensors

00:22:05 ◼   ► and speakers strapped onto it.

00:22:07 ◼   ► - I thought that, and I realized that they do have batteries

00:22:10 ◼   ► and the lithium ion isn't good for landfills

00:22:13 ◼   ► and it makes them a little different than old wired air buds. But the McElope made the

00:22:18 ◼   ► point that in the McElope's household, on a monthly basis, there were wired air buds

00:22:26 ◼   ► being thrown out for years because they'd get caught on a doorknob or something and

00:22:30 ◼   ► fray. They just didn't last. I mean, we've thrown out here in the Tearing Fireball world

00:22:36 ◼   ► headquarters, we've thrown out an awful lot of wired headphones over the years for

00:22:40 ◼   ► same reason. They tend to get frayed. They broke. And I realized physically, it's the

00:22:49 ◼   ► same size as AirPods, but I realized that the lack of a battery makes it slightly different.

00:22:56 ◼   ► But…

00:22:57 ◼   ► Well, the Bose noise-canceling ones that I had, the Buds, it was a joke in our industry

00:23:00 ◼   ► that they would wear out after a year and you'd have to buy the latest version because

00:23:03 ◼   ► you had to keep recharging them and the charge cycles are finite.

00:23:07 ◼   ► I still have my first AirPods. I actually have a still—I guess I should send them back. I've got

00:23:12 ◼   ► the new ones from my review unit I've been using. That's a good reminder to send those back. But my

00:23:17 ◼   ► original pair from what, over two years ago, they don't hold the charge they used to, but they're

00:23:23 ◼   ► fine. They're not—I didn't—and I use them a lot. Amy's definitely had less battery life because

00:23:30 ◼   ► she's like a daily—she uses them more extensively every day. And hers definitely was showing

00:23:36 ◼   ► strains. Yeah, the convenience has a cost in charge cycles. Yeah. Anyway, that's it

00:23:43 ◼   ► for follow up on to let's talk WWDC. Lots. I get the feeling. My spidey sense says it's

00:23:53 ◼   ► going to be a big one. I guess it is most years now. I guess it's almost like, you know,

00:23:58 ◼   ► when's the last time there was a sort of meager WWDC? You know, I feel like Apple's firing

00:24:04 ◼   ► on all cylinders. They've gotten, I think, a little bit—well, a lot more consistent

00:24:12 ◼   ► about being able to keep multiple operating systems up in the air at the same time on

00:24:17 ◼   ► a regular basis, the years where the Mac doesn't even get updated or distant history.

00:24:23 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:24:24 ◼   ► Yeah, no, absolutely. I think the last one where there was a lot of pushback was when

00:24:28 ◼   ► they first announced Apple Music and they had Jimmy up on stage for an extended period.

00:24:34 ◼   ► That was not good.

00:24:37 ◼   ► That was probably the worst moment in an Apple keynote that I can recall.

00:24:42 ◼   ► It seemed very clear that for whatever reason he had decided not to rehearse.

00:24:50 ◼   ► And then he had like Boz a couple years later.

00:24:53 ◼   ► He did almost a better pitch phenomenally well.

00:24:56 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:24:57 ◼   ► And then he got confused at one point.

00:24:59 ◼   ► Remember?

00:25:00 ◼   ► What did he say? It was like something that sounded like a,

00:25:02 ◼   ► I'm never going to remember exactly,

00:25:04 ◼   ► but it was something that seemed like an in-joke to the crowd,

00:25:08 ◼   ► like referencing some old Apple thing, but it wasn't,

00:25:10 ◼   ► it was just a coincidental turn of phrase. But when the crowd broke into applause,

00:25:14 ◼   ► it like totally took him by surprise and took him out of it. Very awkward.

00:25:19 ◼   ► I don't anticipate that. Was that the WWDC? That was WWDC?

00:25:23 ◼   ► Yeah. It was one of their one more thing. I think so.

00:25:26 ◼   ► One of their one more things.

00:25:27 ◼   ► Yeah. That was really strange.

00:25:28 ◼   ► have that wrong. It might have been a September event. I have to double check now.

00:25:31 ◼   ► Pete: Yeah. Well, who knows? Things that won't be announced are things that they announced

00:25:38 ◼   ► in the last week or two. New MacBook Pros and just two days ago, the iPod Touch,

00:25:47 ◼   ► which had been rumored to have a pending update for a long time, suddenly appeared.

00:25:54 ◼   ► Yeah, June 8, 2015. So yeah, WWDC.

00:25:57 ◼   ► Yeah. Yeah. That's a bad fit for WWDC too. I realized some of it sometimes it's if they

00:26:02 ◼   ► have something to announce and they don't want to wait until September and they don't want to hold

00:26:09 ◼   ► an entirely different event in the summer than WWDC it is, whether it's developer related or not.

00:26:15 ◼   ► But that one seemed particularly, it just was a bad fit. And I remember too, it was a long keynote.

00:26:20 ◼   ► Yeah. Yeah.

00:26:21 ◼   ► What do you want to talk about first, iOS or macOS? I think iOS probably has more going

00:26:25 ◼   ► on.

00:26:26 ◼   ► Yeah, sure, yeah, because, well, the iPhone is the most popular device and they sort of

00:26:30 ◼   ► want to get that up front a lot of the time.

00:26:32 ◼   ► So we have leaks from, as far as I can tell, mainly from two sources, just KeyRambo at

00:26:40 ◼   ► 9to5Mac and Mark Gurman, surprise, surprise, at Bloomberg. So we know some things, or we

00:26:48 ◼   ► We think we know some things.

00:26:50 ◼   ► I think that there's still a lot that we don't know though.

00:26:55 ◼   ► I'd be very surprised if there's not a fair amount

00:26:58 ◼   ► that we don't know.

00:26:59 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, it doesn't cover,

00:27:01 ◼   ► even the leaks that there have been,

00:27:02 ◼   ► they cover a few high level features,

00:27:04 ◼   ► but there's always, I don't know, like a 10,

00:27:07 ◼   ► eight to 12 tent pole features in a release.

00:27:11 ◼   ► And some of the teams seem way better

00:27:12 ◼   ► at containing that stuff than others.

00:27:14 ◼   ► - Yeah, one thing I heard this year

00:27:18 ◼   ► from a pretty good source was that this is the first year that Apple's distributed

00:27:21 ◼   ► internal betas differently than before, where I don't know how many hundreds of people

00:27:27 ◼   ► within Apple are already seeded with iOS 13 betas. I don't know. Probably a lot. But

00:27:35 ◼   ► that this year, the builds that are being—I don't know if this is true or not, but I

00:27:39 ◼   ► don't have it firsthand. But what I have to understand is that they've made a new

00:27:44 ◼   ► build system this year where a lot of stuff that's cosmetic is like effectively, in

00:27:51 ◼   ► programming terms, if deffed out of the builds that are distributed.

00:27:55 ◼   ► Actually it's probably exactly how they're doing it.

00:28:00 ◼   ► So a lot of the builds that employees have don't have a lot of the cosmetic stuff that's

00:28:07 ◼   ► changed.

00:28:08 ◼   ► And maybe that's why some stuff has not leaked.

00:28:12 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:28:13 ◼   ► Well, there were a few years where people had to wear those, the years they had bigger

00:28:16 ◼   ► design changes, like when they changed iOS 7, obviously, but even when they had the new

00:28:20 ◼   ► control center, they had to wear those privacy shields on their phones whenever they went

00:28:24 ◼   ► out.

00:28:25 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

00:28:26 ◼   ► And, you know, stuff often leaks 48 hours before the keynote just because all of a sudden

00:28:34 ◼   ► while rehearsals are going on, it's all of a sudden more people have to be led into the

00:28:39 ◼   ► circle, and therefore there's more people who could leak.

00:28:42 ◼   ► So who knows what will leak after we record, but.

00:28:46 ◼   ► - And they're getting better.

00:28:46 ◼   ► Like there was a few years ago

00:28:48 ◼   ► where things would hit internal mailing lists

00:28:49 ◼   ► and then they start to leak

00:28:50 ◼   ► and then they started to buckle down

00:28:52 ◼   ► on who would have access to those mailing lists.

00:28:54 ◼   ► I mean, they are getting better at it

00:28:55 ◼   ► but it's still surprising how much,

00:28:57 ◼   ► and not like not accidentally,

00:28:59 ◼   ► like there was a couple,

00:29:00 ◼   ► was it one year they accidentally posted

00:29:02 ◼   ► one of the firmwares without masking out

00:29:05 ◼   ► a lot of the internal code.

00:29:07 ◼   ► And I think Steve or somebody found it,

00:29:09 ◼   ► but this year it's just traditional, classic old leaks.

00:29:12 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:29:14 ◼   ► Dark mode has long been rumored.

00:29:17 ◼   ► And even without leaks,

00:29:19 ◼   ► the fact that it appeared in Mac OS first

00:29:22 ◼   ► was sort of a hint that it might appear in iOS.

00:29:25 ◼   ► That's something, you know, people are excited about.

00:29:29 ◼   ► I don't know if it's my age and my eyes or what.

00:29:33 ◼   ► I can't really get used to it.

00:29:35 ◼   ► I use it, I've used it for years in BB Edit.

00:29:38 ◼   ► I've had a dark color scheme in BB Edit

00:29:40 ◼   ► and I do a lot of writing there.

00:29:42 ◼   ► And so I can definitely, I can use it,

00:29:45 ◼   ► but for navigating the whole system,

00:29:47 ◼   ► it always throws me off a little bit.

00:29:49 ◼   ► So I don't really use it on the Mac.

00:29:52 ◼   ► I just keep a handful of apps like BB Edit in dark mode,

00:29:55 ◼   ► which I also like just to make it very, very easy

00:29:58 ◼   ► to identify it visually.

00:30:00 ◼   ► There's my BB Edit window over there

00:30:01 ◼   ► behind this other window.

00:30:02 ◼   ► I can tell because it's all almost black.

00:30:05 ◼   ► - I love it.

00:30:07 ◼   ► I mean, people love it as much as they love emoji.

00:30:08 ◼   ► I'm sure it's like Craig said that last year

00:30:10 ◼   ► when they showed it off on the Mac, just huge applause.

00:30:13 ◼   ► And even if you don't use it

00:30:14 ◼   ► because you ultimately find it super oppressive

00:30:16 ◼   ► and kind of depressing, you just wanna have it.

00:30:18 ◼   ► And they've been teasing,

00:30:20 ◼   ► well, they haven't teased it at all,

00:30:21 ◼   ► but people have been expecting it.

00:30:22 ◼   ► It came to the watch and then they thought,

00:30:24 ◼   ► "Oh, we'll get it on the iPhone for sure."

00:30:26 ◼   ► And they come up and they say,

00:30:27 ◼   ► "We have dark mode for Apple TV."

00:30:29 ◼   ► - Do you mean the watch app for the phone?

00:30:32 ◼   ► - Well, the watch itself has always been dark mode.

00:30:35 ◼   ► - Yeah, the watch came out with dark mode

00:30:36 ◼   ► and then people thought, oh, the iPhone's gonna get it too.

00:30:38 ◼   ► And it didn't, the Apple TV got it.

00:30:40 ◼   ► And then we got OLED iPhones, and they go,

00:30:41 ◼   ► finally, we're gonna get dark mode,

00:30:43 ◼   ► and then the Mac got it.

00:30:44 ◼   ► And then this year, finally, or, you know,

00:30:46 ◼   ► expectedly, finally, we'll get dark mode on the phone,

00:30:49 ◼   ► probably, you know, from marzipan compatibility

00:30:51 ◼   ► if nothing else.

00:30:53 ◼   ► - I'm curious, I'm curious what they'll do

00:30:56 ◼   ► with like the Apple Watch app for iPhone,

00:30:59 ◼   ► which has always been effectively dark mode.

00:31:02 ◼   ► It's a almost black or black background.

00:31:04 ◼   ► Like when you're in dark mode,

00:31:06 ◼   ► will the watch mode turn light?

00:31:08 ◼   ► Or--

00:31:10 ◼   ► - Or it should just follow, right?

00:31:11 ◼   ► Like it should follow, they should have to make a light mode

00:31:14 ◼   ► 'cause Maps already has both, a couple things have both

00:31:16 ◼   ► but everything should have both.

00:31:18 ◼   ► It should just be standard, consistent,

00:31:20 ◼   ► developers should be able to use it, built-in apps,

00:31:22 ◼   ► it's either in light mode, dark mode,

00:31:24 ◼   ► and it'd be nice if you could have it change at sunset

00:31:26 ◼   ► or by some timer mechanism.

00:31:28 ◼   ► - Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if they do that

00:31:30 ◼   ► because I think Apple TV does that, right?

00:31:33 ◼   ► Or am I making that up? - I'm not sure.

00:31:34 ◼   ► I'm 80% sure.

00:31:38 ◼   ► I'm sure enough that I would wager

00:31:40 ◼   ► that I have my Apple TV set to be light mode in a day

00:31:42 ◼   ► and dark mode at night.

00:31:44 ◼   ► And the funny thing is I never really notice.

00:31:47 ◼   ► It isn't like, oh, it switched.

00:31:49 ◼   ► It just seems very natural.

00:31:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's a full screen device.

00:31:53 ◼   ► - I think I'm more likely to use dark mode on iOS

00:31:56 ◼   ► than I am on Mac, but there are certain apps

00:31:58 ◼   ► that I think it would be so weird to be using in dark mode,

00:32:02 ◼   ► like email, right?

00:32:03 ◼   ► Like, I don't know why.

00:32:05 ◼   ► It just seems crazy to me

00:32:07 ◼   ► to have a black background for email,

00:32:08 ◼   ► even though when I first started using email in the '90s,

00:32:11 ◼   ► it was with a black background in a terminal window.

00:32:14 ◼   ► So I guess-

00:32:16 ◼   ► - Well, I guess the point is that it doesn't glare.

00:32:17 ◼   ► Like if you're in bed with somebody else,

00:32:19 ◼   ► it's not glaring and keeping them awake

00:32:21 ◼   ► while you're typing out your email.

00:32:22 ◼   ► - Yeah, and everybody's long been speculating about it

00:32:26 ◼   ► because OLED can do black in a more power efficient manner

00:32:31 ◼   ► 'cause it's not lighting up pixels to make them black.

00:32:33 ◼   ► like turns them off. So everybody's always thought, well, dark mode would be more, would

00:32:39 ◼   ► give you more battery life. But I don't, I think I've read a few things where it's like,

00:32:44 ◼   ► in theory, yes, but in practice, it doesn't work out that way. The difference is so minor

00:32:51 ◼   ► as to be theoretical. You know, like maybe you get like one more percent, you get like

00:32:56 ◼   ► three minutes of extra battery life before your phone dies or something like that. It's

00:33:00 ◼   ► It's not the sort of thing where it's like, holy crap, my battery lasts 50% longer because

00:33:05 ◼   ► I'm a dark one.

00:33:06 ◼   ► Yeah, and it's got a light up and on light pixels.

00:33:07 ◼   ► I think it ends up working out to, like you said, just a very...

00:33:11 ◼   ► All the things about OLED, you get nothing for free.

00:33:13 ◼   ► There's so many ways you have to mitigate that technology just to make it workable that

00:33:16 ◼   ► it's astounding.

00:33:17 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah, totally true.

00:33:20 ◼   ► So there's dark mode coming.

00:33:21 ◼   ► What else do we got?

00:33:23 ◼   ► New reminders app or at least...

00:33:27 ◼   ► I forget who I'm stealing this from, maybe multiple people,

00:33:31 ◼   ► but I like the analogy that,

00:33:34 ◼   ► I think the Apple Notes app used to be

00:33:36 ◼   ► a piece of hot garbage.

00:33:37 ◼   ► I really hated the way it looked.

00:33:41 ◼   ► It was one of the poster children

00:33:44 ◼   ► for the skeuomorphic design,

00:33:47 ◼   ► where it looked like an actual paper pad,

00:33:49 ◼   ► had ripped pages at the top, it had staples.

00:33:53 ◼   ► And the thing that of course killed me

00:33:55 ◼   ► was that it used the, what was the name of that font?

00:33:59 ◼   ► - Markerfelt. - Markerfelt font.

00:34:01 ◼   ► The one thing I'll tell you, I was in a Slack today

00:34:03 ◼   ► talking to friends and we were talking,

00:34:05 ◼   ► somehow Scott Forstall's name came up.

00:34:07 ◼   ► - Yeah. - And he, I will say this,

00:34:10 ◼   ► and he was obviously instrumental

00:34:11 ◼   ► in the entire look and feel of iOS

00:34:14 ◼   ► throughout that entire era.

00:34:16 ◼   ► Multiple times where I either met him,

00:34:19 ◼   ► like after, you know, chatted with him briefly

00:34:22 ◼   ► after a keynote or just observed him like after an event.

00:34:25 ◼   ► He was a rabid user, or probably still is, of the Notes app.

00:34:31 ◼   ► Like anything that popped into his head,

00:34:33 ◼   ► he, like the way that I use like a paper notebook for stuff,

00:34:35 ◼   ► he used the app.

00:34:36 ◼   ► And I remember seeing him one time,

00:34:38 ◼   ► it was at the 2012 October event,

00:34:42 ◼   ► a week before his exit from the company.

00:34:47 ◼   ► It was an event actually held at the California Theater

00:34:52 ◼   ► in San Jose, which is near and dear to my heart, for obvious reasons. He was not on

00:34:59 ◼   ► stage in that event, and then a week later we all said, "Hmm, I guess that's why."

00:35:04 ◼   ► But I did see him in the hands-on area, which was tiny. Were you at that event?

00:35:09 ◼   ► Jared: No, I don't think so.

00:35:10 ◼   ► Dave: You would have remembered it. Because it's a beautiful, beautiful theater, as anybody

00:35:15 ◼   ► who's been to the live episodes of the talk show at WWDC can attest. It's the same theater

00:35:20 ◼   ► I've been using since WWDC moved to San Jose. But the theater didn't really have a good

00:35:27 ◼   ► hands-on area. And it was one of the last shows Apple did where they just sort of made

00:35:34 ◼   ► the best of what the facility had as opposed to the last few years where if they need to

00:35:40 ◼   ► build an entire pop-up building like they did with—remember with the Apple Watch?

00:35:44 ◼   ► They created an entire building on that college campus in Cupertino just to have a massive

00:35:53 ◼   ► hands-on area for the Apple Watch.

00:35:56 ◼   ► So it was a real tiny little area, an anti-room of this theater, low ceiling, real hot, but

00:36:04 ◼   ► I saw a forestall by himself.

00:36:05 ◼   ► And what was he doing?

00:36:06 ◼   ► He was pecking away in Apple Notes.

00:36:10 ◼   ► So at least he used it.

00:36:12 ◼   ► So I give him credit for that.

00:36:13 ◼   ► Anyway, as of a couple of handful of years ago,

00:36:16 ◼   ► they did a major, major revision to Apple Notes.

00:36:19 ◼   ► It used to sync, believe it or not.

00:36:23 ◼   ► This seems crazy and it's partly why I hated the app,

00:36:25 ◼   ► but it used to sync over IMAP.

00:36:27 ◼   ► - Yeah, it was terrible.

00:36:29 ◼   ► (both laughing)

00:36:30 ◼   ► - Right, and you're like, "IMAP,

00:36:31 ◼   ► "isn't that the email protocol?"

00:36:32 ◼   ► And it's like, "Yeah, that's exactly right."

00:36:34 ◼   ► And is IMAP meant for that?

00:36:38 ◼   ► No. (laughs)

00:36:40 ◼   ► It wasn't.

00:36:41 ◼   ► it technically worked and I guess it worked best with iCloud because Apple could then

00:36:47 ◼   ► make sure that their iCloud, Mac.com, Me.com, whatever you were using at the time, that

00:36:52 ◼   ► their IMAP server would at least work in the way the Notes app wanted it to. But using

00:36:57 ◼   ► it with Gmail was crazy. I remember it for a while when you used it with a Gmail IMAP

00:37:02 ◼   ► account, even if you enabled IMAP on your Gmail account, the way Gmail was set up was

00:37:06 ◼   ► like every time you made... Because it was treating... The IMAP server thought these

00:37:10 ◼   ► notes were emails. And you'd edit them. And every time you edited a note for some period

00:37:16 ◼   ► of time when you had it syncing with Gmail, it would create a new note. So every edit

00:37:21 ◼   ► was a new note and you'd have it like if you edited the same note eight times, you'd have

00:37:26 ◼   ► eight copies of it each with incrementally more text. It's not a good system. Anyway,

00:37:33 ◼   ► three four years ago, three years ago, four years ago, Apple switched and they rewrote

00:37:38 ◼   ► it and now the syncs via CloudKit and it's really good sync. And of course in

00:37:43 ◼   ► iOS 7 it got a new interface and uses, you know, it still does have a press

00:37:49 ◼   ► interface. Yeah it still does have a bit, it still is one of the few apps that has

00:37:53 ◼   ► any hint of skeuomorphism or for lack of a better word. And apparently they had to

00:37:58 ◼   ► spend an awful lot of time to get a look that Jonathan and I was happy with for that.

00:38:01 ◼   ► Right because it's it it's it you know there's yeah there's like a little bit

00:38:06 ◼   ► of a 3D embossed to the navigation text, etc. But anyway, a serious rethinking of an app

00:38:13 ◼   ► that had been sort of languishing in a very, very rudimentary form for years. Anyway, long

00:38:21 ◼   ► story short, it seems like that's what they're doing with the Reminders app, that the Reminders

00:38:25 ◼   ► app has been there for, God, I don't even, it wasn't in the original iPhone. It's been

00:38:32 ◼   ► around for a while though. It seems like they're really—it's a very serious evolution of

00:38:41 ◼   ► this app, making it more useful. But I still think simple enough from what we've seen

00:38:45 ◼   ► of these screenshots that it's not like a Sherlocking or Things, who I would say has

00:38:55 ◼   ► sponsored the talk show in recent weeks. So I'll just say that as a disclaimer. Or

00:38:59 ◼   ► or our friends at the Omni group,

00:39:01 ◼   ► like you said, with OmniFocus.

00:39:03 ◼   ► In the same way that the updated Apple Notes app

00:39:07 ◼   ► hasn't killed third-party Notes apps.

00:39:10 ◼   ► There's apps like Bear and a couple of other ones

00:39:12 ◼   ► that are more popular than ever.

00:39:14 ◼   ► So it's a good balance for Apple to strike.

00:39:18 ◼   ► And I think it's a good app for them

00:39:20 ◼   ► to give a little love to.

00:39:22 ◼   ► - Yeah, it should have basic functionality,

00:39:24 ◼   ► not no functionality.

00:39:25 ◼   ► It's probably a good guide.

00:39:26 ◼   ► (both laughing)

00:39:28 ◼   ► The best thing to me, the best thing about the built-in reminders app now is using it with Siri and saying

00:39:34 ◼   ► hey dingus remind me to pick up the dry cleaning Friday at 4 and

00:39:39 ◼   ► That to me is rock-solid

00:39:42 ◼   ► Works like a charm. I don't want it on my calendar. You know, I just want

00:39:47 ◼   ► My ding all my devices to just ping me at 4 o'clock on Friday to remind me to go pick up the dry cleaning

00:39:53 ◼   ► Yeah, and I think Siri kid has had to do functionality for a while, too

00:39:57 ◼   ► So you can you can ding us a lot of different apps now. Yeah, I

00:40:01 ◼   ► Wouldn't be surprised that's you know, if we want to go off the the path here of

00:40:07 ◼   ► delineating things that have leaked and talk about things that haven't

00:40:11 ◼   ► I'm really interested to see if there's a lot of Siri stuff for developers this year

00:40:18 ◼   ► Because oh god help me with his last name. John John G

00:40:23 ◼   ► John G Andrea, she Andrea, the former head of search at Google who left for Apple about

00:40:32 ◼   ► a year ago, I believe. Yeah. Is that right? Is that the timeframe? He got there about

00:40:36 ◼   ► a year ago. Yeah, maybe it was a few months ago. Got your vice president. Yeah. Yeah.

00:40:42 ◼   ► Which to me seemed like a forget if you were the one on the show when we talked about that

00:40:46 ◼   ► when he got the title upgrade. Yeah. Seemed like maybe it was like a mutual trial period.

00:40:51 ◼   ► I'm sure it's not, you know, his reputation speaks for itself as head of Google search.

00:40:56 ◼   ► But you know, maybe it was like a personality fit thing before they bestow the very limited

00:41:01 ◼   ► number of senior vice president titles at Apple.

00:41:03 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't imagine anybody just walks in on one of those.

00:41:06 ◼   ► Right, but he's very few people.

00:41:07 ◼   ► I'm very curious if the fruits of his leadership and you know, the series been even before

00:41:15 ◼   ► Before he got there, the whole Siri and AI effort has been under a lot of changes from

00:41:23 ◼   ► years ago.

00:41:24 ◼   ► Well, didn't Bill get it like a week after Scott left and it was sort of just dumped

00:41:29 ◼   ► on?

00:41:30 ◼   ► No, Bill joined the company, Scott left, and then immediately he was given Siri.

00:41:34 ◼   ► Right.

00:41:35 ◼   ► And then it really had no ownership because he had no vested interest in it.

00:41:40 ◼   ► Scott was the one that was pushing it previously.

00:41:42 ◼   ► And then it sort of bounced around in Eddie's org for a while before being shipped off to

00:41:46 ◼   ► Craig and now now finally it has a home with people who want it and love it.

00:41:49 ◼   ► You know, and in a very serious commitment to doing the best AI and machine learning

00:41:57 ◼   ► work in the industry, you know, at the very highest level, something that Apple, you know,

00:42:03 ◼   ► clearly was did not have the reputation for.

00:42:06 ◼   ► It's like their silicon team now it's like we want the best go do it.

00:42:10 ◼   ► So that's on my list as we ping pong back and forth between, I mean, I haven't seen

00:42:13 ◼   ► any leaks about Siri.

00:42:14 ◼   ► I think there was one, I think Rambo had one about them finally doing media, which is super

00:42:20 ◼   ► great because I want to just be able to say Overcast or Audible or any of the audio programs

00:42:28 ◼   ► and just have it work.

00:42:29 ◼   ► Yeah, that would be a big one for me.

00:42:31 ◼   ► Like if I could command Overcast to play the newest episode of, you know, insert name of

00:42:38 ◼   ► Podcast here. That would be fantastic

00:42:40 ◼   ► Get Spotify off their backs make Netflix happy

00:42:43 ◼   ► Yeah, well and you know, I really am in the habit. I mean now it's nice whether it's may

00:42:49 ◼   ► So it's not too big an issue but going through winter like to me

00:42:52 ◼   ► That's the the single biggest game changer about air pods in general is winter on it when you have bad weather

00:42:59 ◼   ► Yeah, and being able to actually do stuff

00:43:01 ◼   ► without touching anything

00:43:05 ◼   ► just by saying hey dingus into the

00:43:08 ◼   ► You know, especially with the new air pods where they have the yeah. Yeah, no tap. Hey dingus

00:43:14 ◼   ► It's just it was just truly game-changing in terms of my interaction with the phone and podcasts and stuff like that

00:43:22 ◼   ► while I'm wearing a winter coat and gloves and do not want to take that gloves off and do not want to take my

00:43:28 ◼   ► Phone out with numb fingers and risk dropping it, etc

00:43:32 ◼   ► I think the only thing he said that was complicated was how do you get the catalogs in because like the Spotify catalog is

00:43:38 ◼   ► Different than the iTunes one the Netflix catalog is different than the iTunes one

00:43:42 ◼   ► How do you get it to understand or how do the developers or the content providers get it to understand?

00:43:47 ◼   ► When you're saying words and when you're asking for titles of media that maybe the system has never heard before

00:43:52 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't know. But anyway, I would like to see that. Yeah, what else what else is on the rumor list?

00:43:57 ◼   ► I'm like I told you I don't have notes

00:44:00 ◼   ► Well, I mean the other thing is that well, we're gonna talk about the Mac after but there's just a

00:44:04 ◼   ► They're gonna continue with the refinements and making it work better on older devices, which seems key to both

00:44:10 ◼   ► You know apples it drives the analysts nuts because they they actually want Apple to make devices age out faster, right?

00:44:16 ◼   ► You know

00:44:17 ◼   ► But they have this commitment to having devices last for a good four or five years and keeping the system up to date for a good

00:44:22 ◼   ► four or five years

00:44:24 ◼   ► Which I think it's not you know, it's not necessarily noble because it benefits them by having customer loyalty go up

00:44:29 ◼   ► But I think it's great in this age where a lot of devices are almost disposable a year after you buy them

00:44:34 ◼   ► Yeah, and it's good to hear that that was not just a one year

00:44:38 ◼   ► 2018 effort and and by all accounts it when it shipped when iOS 12 shipped in September, I think

00:44:45 ◼   ► Andrew Cunningham at Ars Technica did like the most in-depth testing of like, okay

00:44:52 ◼   ► Let's see. They said this would run better on old hardware

00:44:54 ◼   ► "Let's test it on an iPhone 5S," or something like that.

00:44:59 ◼   ► And lo and behold, it was faster than iOS 11, and battery life was better, and it didn't

00:45:06 ◼   ► feel unusable as some iOS updates did in years past on old hardware.

00:45:12 ◼   ► So it's good to know that that seemingly, according to rumor, is more of a long-term

00:45:16 ◼   ► strategic change, not just a one-off, "Okay, let's clean up some stuff that doesn't

00:45:22 ◼   ► well on old hardware one time.

00:45:24 ◼   ► I just wonder how they're going to do it because last year they literally took people that

00:45:27 ◼   ► we know who were the lead engineers on major projects and said, "Hey, spend half a year

00:45:32 ◼   ► making this better."

00:45:33 ◼   ► Doing that every year will really significantly slow down the amount of new features.

00:45:37 ◼   ► So I wonder if they've developed a better system where this stuff gets handed over to

00:45:40 ◼   ► a maintenance team that just keeps it going while the other team goes and keeps making

00:45:44 ◼   ► the new features.

00:45:45 ◼   ► Well, I know you know this story because you have had Don Melton on debug, the interview

00:45:51 ◼   ► shows. Now, Don Melton had been at Mozilla. Long story short, had been at Mozilla, had

00:45:57 ◼   ► been all around the industry, but he had browser experience. He was hired early on to lead

00:46:02 ◼   ► the WebKit Safari team. I think it was Don's idea, wasn't it? Or maybe not, but he was

00:46:07 ◼   ► certainly instrumental in it. But zero regression, where the WebKit team had this policy. I don't

00:46:12 ◼   ► know if they still do. They might, because it certainly doesn't seem like WebKit regresses.

00:46:16 ◼   ► But at least in the early years, they had a policy that if you were an engineer on the

00:46:20 ◼   ► kit team and you were working on a feature, you couldn't check that feature into the main

00:46:25 ◼   ► WebKit source code and say, "Okay, I'm done. I'm checking this in. Now, next time everybody

00:46:30 ◼   ► does a build, my feature is in there," unless all of the tests were as fast or faster than

00:46:37 ◼   ► before you checked in. So you could not check anything into the code base that made Safari

00:46:43 ◼   ► or WebKit slower in any way. And you think, "Well, that's a great idea. Doesn't everybody

00:46:49 ◼   ► do that?" And it's like, "The truth is, an awful lot of engineering is done in the comments

00:46:56 ◼   ► to do fix this. This algorithm is slow."

00:47:01 ◼   ► A lot of technical debt.

00:47:02 ◼   ► Yeah. And it just adds up. You put something in there and you have the best of intentions

00:47:07 ◼   ► that I know that this is slow. I don't know what I'm doing wrong here, like syncing bookmarks

00:47:15 ◼   ► iCloud, but for whatever reason, the way that this thing I checked in, it's slow. I'll fix it later.

00:47:20 ◼   ► Well, one thing leads to another and all of a sudden it's like, well, we've got to ship on

00:47:24 ◼   ► Friday. Well, there it is. Your slow algorithm is in the shipping code. So that was a, I always love

00:47:30 ◼   ► that story. I think it really, really helped Safari take off the way it did immediately.

00:47:36 ◼   ► And I think it kept the WebKit code base in great shape. So maybe something more like that

00:47:42 ◼   ► for everything where you really do have to, like new features and new apps and stuff like

00:47:47 ◼   ► that really do have to be tested on the what's the slowest hardware we're going to support with this

00:47:53 ◼   ► and make sure that it's usable. Yeah, no, that'd be awesome. I mean,

00:47:56 ◼   ► they had a performance team for years and they part of that they would carry older devices, but

00:48:00 ◼   ► there's nothing like it being your primary focus that really hones it in.

00:48:05 ◼   ► I do think you're right. I mean, they're explicit about it, like the analysts in their disdain for

00:48:12 ◼   ► for Apple's, the longevity of iPhones.

00:48:16 ◼   ► They really, really, really want people

00:48:18 ◼   ► to buy new iPhones every two years.

00:48:21 ◼   ► And as time goes on, I think that that period

00:48:25 ◼   ► is clearly expanding.

00:48:26 ◼   ► People are using iPhones longer and longer

00:48:29 ◼   ► because they're better.

00:48:31 ◼   ► They're more durable.

00:48:32 ◼   ► The cameras are so good even on three

00:48:35 ◼   ► or four-year-old iPhone.

00:48:37 ◼   ► I see the difference.

00:48:38 ◼   ► You see the difference.

00:48:39 ◼   ► We test each one that comes out.

00:48:41 ◼   ► I see the difference and I'm a little,

00:48:43 ◼   ► we're both a bit of photo enthusiasts.

00:48:45 ◼   ► So we still see how even the iPhone XS camera

00:48:49 ◼   ► is still chasing the optical quality of it,

00:48:53 ◼   ► of a true like DSLR or mirrorless camera system.

00:48:58 ◼   ► So we're enthusiastic for even incremental

00:49:04 ◼   ► year over year changes, but for normal people,

00:49:06 ◼   ► it really is, it's absolutely no surprise

00:49:09 ◼   ► that their three year old or four year old iPhone

00:49:11 ◼   ► is good enough because the pictures are actually

00:49:13 ◼   ► still pretty good and better than what these same people

00:49:16 ◼   ► were taking 10 years ago when they had like a dedicated

00:49:20 ◼   ► point and shoot.

00:49:21 ◼   ► - Yeah, no, because the camera does so much of the work

00:49:24 ◼   ► for them, we have a point and shoot.

00:49:25 ◼   ► Most people didn't spend the time to actually learn

00:49:27 ◼   ► how every button worked on those cameras

00:49:29 ◼   ► and the auto focus and auto white balance

00:49:31 ◼   ► and all of the image signal processors,

00:49:33 ◼   ► all of that stuff now is way better than what the SLRs

00:49:35 ◼   ► or point and shoot cameras have.

00:49:37 ◼   ► Yeah, one thing, I have a Fuji,

00:49:40 ◼   ► I don't think I talked about this,

00:49:41 ◼   ► I have a Fuji X100S,

00:49:44 ◼   ► and the Fuji X100 line, you can Google it,

00:49:47 ◼   ► there was the Fuji X100,

00:49:48 ◼   ► then the second one was the S, which is the one I have,

00:49:51 ◼   ► I think it's like, I think it's at least five years old

00:49:53 ◼   ► at this point.

00:49:54 ◼   ► Then there was the T, and now there's another one.

00:49:57 ◼   ► It's a nice little camera from Fuji, not pocket size,

00:50:00 ◼   ► little bit like just the one step up

00:50:02 ◼   ► from what you could fit in a pocket.

00:50:03 ◼   ► It has a fixed lens, doesn't have removable lenses,

00:50:06 ◼   ► It has a fixed 28 millimeter equivalent lens.

00:50:09 ◼   ► I like it a lot, takes great pictures.

00:50:11 ◼   ► I've taken, but every year I take fewer and fewer pictures

00:50:16 ◼   ► of things other than iPhones.

00:50:18 ◼   ► But the one thing, I had it at a family gathering

00:50:20 ◼   ► a couple months ago.

00:50:21 ◼   ► I thought, let me take the real camera.

00:50:23 ◼   ► And the thing that really struck me

00:50:26 ◼   ► after having maybe not used it in months,

00:50:28 ◼   ► maybe six months, was how long it took

00:50:31 ◼   ► to go from one photo to the next.

00:50:34 ◼   ► like I'd snap the shutter.

00:50:36 ◼   ► And then I would see the preview of the image I took,

00:50:39 ◼   ► and it was so slow compared to an iPhone

00:50:42 ◼   ► in terms of how you can just go tap, tap, tap, tap, tap

00:50:44 ◼   ► and take the shot.

00:50:46 ◼   ► It's almost shocking how instantaneous it literally,

00:50:48 ◼   ► I don't know how else to describe it as instantaneous.

00:50:50 ◼   ► And it's completely spoiled me for hardware cameras.

00:50:55 ◼   ► And I'm sure that if I got a brand new Fuji,

00:50:57 ◼   ► it would be faster than my five year old one.

00:50:59 ◼   ► But I don't think the camera companies can compete

00:51:03 ◼   ► with Apple on the digital signal processing.

00:51:07 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's the one thing that, long story short,

00:51:10 ◼   ► I usually buy the Google Pixel every year,

00:51:11 ◼   ► but my order got screwed up with the three,

00:51:13 ◼   ► and then the wait period got long,

00:51:15 ◼   ► and then I forgot about it afterwards,

00:51:17 ◼   ► and then I announced the Pixel 3a, and I wanted to get it,

00:51:19 ◼   ► but then the camera is still great,

00:51:21 ◼   ► but the processor is slower,

00:51:23 ◼   ► and I always found the Pixel,

00:51:25 ◼   ► because it does post-processing for a lot of its AI,

00:51:28 ◼   ► for a lot of its image effects,

00:51:30 ◼   ► like the computational photography,

00:51:31 ◼   ► it's almost all post-process,

00:51:33 ◼   ► and I don't even like to spend time making coffee.

00:51:35 ◼   ► So I don't wanna wait for a photo.

00:51:37 ◼   ► And it just, it's a little bit slower

00:51:38 ◼   ► and that sort of pushed me back towards like,

00:51:41 ◼   ► I want the best camera and the best processor

00:51:43 ◼   ► I possibly can get in any phone that I get.

00:51:45 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:51:46 ◼   ► But anyway, and the other advantage of Apple's commitment

00:51:51 ◼   ► to keeping the new versions of iOS running smoothly

00:51:54 ◼   ► on older hardware is if it runs smoothly on older hardware,

00:51:57 ◼   ► it's gonna run like butter on the new hardware.

00:51:59 ◼   ► And so everybody benefits.

00:52:01 ◼   ► It's not wasted effort.

00:52:03 ◼   ► You know, if you're always,

00:52:04 ◼   ► if you're like in the iPhone upgrade program

00:52:06 ◼   ► and you've always got the newest one,

00:52:08 ◼   ► it's not like Apple isn't helping you as well.

00:52:11 ◼   ► You know, efficient code is efficient for everybody.

00:52:14 ◼   ► - It's also good because they keep pushing

00:52:16 ◼   ► the constraints of computing down.

00:52:17 ◼   ► Like you had the Mac

00:52:19 ◼   ► and then you had to fit all that into an iPhone.

00:52:20 ◼   ► Then you have the iPhone,

00:52:21 ◼   ► you had to fit all that into a watch.

00:52:23 ◼   ► And now they're trying to fit a lot of computing

00:52:24 ◼   ► into an AirPod.

00:52:26 ◼   ► You know, and eventually who knows what'll be next.

00:52:28 ◼   ► But the better this stuff all runs,

00:52:30 ◼   ► the better it runs on glasses one day or some embedded architecture eventually.

00:52:34 ◼   ► Dave Asprey I think it's a good example. I think analysts'

00:52:36 ◼   ► obsession with the upgrade cycle and wanting it to be short is an interesting case of a

00:52:41 ◼   ► phenomenon that I think is often overlooked, which is that in an ongoing development, like

00:52:50 ◼   ► a computer platform like iOS or just like an application, like a text editor that has

00:52:57 ◼   ► been around for a long time. It matters where you start. The starting point matters even

00:53:03 ◼   ► as it evolves. It might become more complex. It might become more popular. It might do

00:53:08 ◼   ► things you never imagined before. But it matters where you start. And I think that like with

00:53:14 ◼   ► the PC, the PC in the 80s when it first became a phenomenon, whether it was Mac, Intel, Windows,

00:53:24 ◼   ► DOS version, whatever. They were very expensive. You know, Macs were two $3,000 to start easily

00:53:32 ◼   ► could run you for $5,000 PCs were thousands of dollars laptops when they were new were

00:53:37 ◼   ► so expensive 45 $5,000 $5,000 for just like a stock like lower end laptop because it was

00:53:46 ◼   ► just so hard to put a working functional PC into that portable form factor.

00:53:54 ◼   ► And so peoples, including analysts, their concept of what a PC is, is like this is an

00:54:01 ◼   ► investment.

00:54:02 ◼   ► This is sort of along the spectrum of buying like a major appliance, like a refrigerator

00:54:07 ◼   ► or a car even.

00:54:10 ◼   ► And never really had the idea that, you know, and then as the PC hardware got cheaper and

00:54:15 ◼   ► cheaper and now you can buy, you know, you can buy Chromebooks for $150 and stuff like

00:54:19 ◼   ► that and they kind of could be conceived of as disposable.

00:54:23 ◼   ► People don't look at it that way.

00:54:25 ◼   ► Whereas cell phones evolved out of these things that, you know, you'd go to your carrier

00:54:32 ◼   ► and spend $20 and get a new Nokia candy bar phone.

00:54:36 ◼   ► You know, like two years later when your contract was up again, you might as well get a new

00:54:39 ◼   ► phone because they were affected. They just give you one, they would just give you a new

00:54:42 ◼   ► phone when you renewed your contract and you'd get maybe you'd go from a black and white screen to a

00:54:46 ◼   ► color screen for playing the snake game. Right. And I feel like their concept their concept is

00:54:53 ◼   ► even though especially Apple's iPhones, but high end Android phones, you know, are 700 $800 or more.

00:55:02 ◼   ► Yeah. They still haven't really shaken. I think at the at that Wall Street level, the idea that

00:55:08 ◼   ► that phones are disposable things that should be replaced every two years.

00:55:11 ◼   ► And ironically, people still think that companies make their phones artificially slow to

00:55:16 ◼   ► afford you to upgrade, even when they're spending billions on silicon and engineering

00:55:21 ◼   ► resources to make sure you can keep it for four or five years.

00:55:23 ◼   ► Right. The people who wrote those theories, when iOS 12 came out and actually did run faster,

00:55:29 ◼   ► you didn't see many apologies or corrections to those.

00:55:33 ◼   ► No, and it was obvious even in the first beta.

00:55:35 ◼   ► Right. Yeah, that was always a good one. I always said, like, can you even imagine I always I always

00:55:42 ◼   ► like to imagine, you know, Jane engineer who works at Apple, you know, hey, here's the idea. We need

00:55:49 ◼   ► you to work on a search for mail. And what we want you to do is make it run really bad on on

00:55:58 ◼   ► old hardware. So that'll get people to buy a new phone. Like, can you imagine telling an engineer

00:56:03 ◼   ► at Apple that we want you to make this run badly. It's ridiculous when you think about it. I mean,

00:56:10 ◼   ► it's like a lot of conspiracy theories when you really kind of skip over the yada, yada,

00:56:16 ◼   ► yada parts and fill it in with what would actually have to happen. It completely falls apart.

00:56:20 ◼   ► Yeah, it's amazing.

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00:59:34 ◼   ► What else is on the agenda for iOS 13?

00:59:39 ◼   ► - I mean, something near and dear to us.

00:59:41 ◼   ► And I think you got the Photoshop briefing,

00:59:43 ◼   ► I think last year too, right?

00:59:45 ◼   ► Photoshop for iOS.

00:59:46 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:59:47 ◼   ► - And they start talking about

00:59:48 ◼   ► how they're gonna do fonts on iOS

00:59:49 ◼   ► 'cause they don't exist

00:59:50 ◼   ► and we'll have to use Creative Cloud.

00:59:53 ◼   ► Well, it sounds like we're finally getting,

00:59:54 ◼   ► I'm gonna use finally for that

00:59:55 ◼   ► 'cause I think 12 years in,

00:59:58 ◼   ► finally getting fonts on iOS.

01:00:00 ◼   ► - I've said this before,

01:00:02 ◼   ► I think I wrote this on "Daring Fireball."

01:00:03 ◼   ► If you would have told me in 1990,

01:00:07 ◼   ► anytime in the 1990s

01:00:09 ◼   ► when I was really doing a lot of desktop publishing work

01:00:13 ◼   ► that in the 2010s, Apple would have an all new platform,

01:00:18 ◼   ► a new platform, not the Mac.

01:00:22 ◼   ► And you could say, but don't worry,

01:00:23 ◼   ► the Mac is still there, it's doing well.

01:00:25 ◼   ► I'd be so relieved, I'd be happy.

01:00:27 ◼   ► I'd be unsurprised that they had a new platform

01:00:30 ◼   ► because like I said, back then,

01:00:31 ◼   ► new platforms came every couple of years, right?

01:00:34 ◼   ► And you'd think, I never thought the Mac

01:00:36 ◼   ► would be the platform for everybody forever.

01:00:39 ◼   ► Would have been totally unsurprised,

01:00:41 ◼   ► they would say has great graphical interface,

01:00:43 ◼   ► beautiful touch screen, everything's on touch,

01:00:46 ◼   ► I would have thought, well that's believable,

01:00:47 ◼   ► it's futuristic, that sounds right.

01:00:49 ◼   ► And then if you would have told me that 11 years

01:00:52 ◼   ► into the platform's existence,

01:00:54 ◼   ► you still couldn't install your own fonts,

01:00:56 ◼   ► (laughs)

01:00:57 ◼   ► I wouldn't have believed you.

01:01:00 ◼   ► - Yep.

01:01:01 ◼   ► - This is Apple, I would say, you're saying this is Apple.

01:01:03 ◼   ► - The company that invented,

01:01:05 ◼   ► basically invented desktop typography.

01:01:07 ◼   ► - Right, and made it literally as easy as possible

01:01:12 ◼   ► possible to install fonts.

01:01:15 ◼   ► You know, there was back in the old, old days,

01:01:17 ◼   ► there was, you had to install fonts.

01:01:19 ◼   ► You had to use a, do you remember this

01:01:20 ◼   ► or were you not using a Mac at the time?

01:01:22 ◼   ► Font/DAMover.

01:01:24 ◼   ► Because the fonts weren't really files.

01:01:28 ◼   ► There was no like fonts folder

01:01:31 ◼   ► and you just drug font files into that folder

01:01:33 ◼   ► and then they appeared that they were like resources,

01:01:37 ◼   ► like ResEdit level resources.

01:01:38 ◼   ► So you used FontDAMover

01:01:41 ◼   ► and it would move the font resources

01:01:43 ◼   ► into like a suitcase file somewhere.

01:01:46 ◼   ► But not a great user experience.

01:01:48 ◼   ► It was often the butt of jokes like in Macworld Magazine.

01:01:51 ◼   ► And then I think it was, I think it was system seven,

01:01:54 ◼   ► maybe it was system six where they invented the,

01:01:56 ◼   ► just gave you a folder and just said,

01:01:58 ◼   ► "Here, just drag your font files in this folder."

01:02:00 ◼   ► And that's it.

01:02:01 ◼   ► You don't have to restart or anything.

01:02:03 ◼   ► They'll just appear in all your apps.

01:02:05 ◼   ► There you go.

01:02:06 ◼   ► And then in, with macOS 10, they made it even easier.

01:02:08 ◼   ► You could just double click fonts.

01:02:10 ◼   ► they'd open in the font book app

01:02:11 ◼   ► and then there'd be a button that would just say install.

01:02:13 ◼   ► And you didn't even have to go find the font folder.

01:02:16 ◼   ► It would just, you just double click them, hit install.

01:02:19 ◼   ► There they are everywhere.

01:02:21 ◼   ► So yes, I give this a,

01:02:25 ◼   ► not just a finally, but an italicized finally.

01:02:28 ◼   ► Right?

01:02:30 ◼   ► - Yeah. - F'ing finally.

01:02:32 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:02:33 ◼   ► And I'm just so curious as to how it's gonna be implemented.

01:02:36 ◼   ► Like, because is there gonna be a centralized repository

01:02:39 ◼   ► for fonts the way there is for photographs and files and how will they access them, how

01:02:43 ◼   ► will they install them, can anyone provide them? I have so many questions.

01:02:47 ◼   ► I do wonder, I wonder what the holdup was. I've long wondered if part of it is security

01:02:56 ◼   ► because there have been effectively modern fonts, the TrueType and OpenType fonts are

01:03:02 ◼   ► effectively software programs. I mean, that's a fascinating language, PostScript, but PostScript

01:03:09 ◼   ► really is a programming language. I had a professor at Drexel back in the '90s who—I

01:03:16 ◼   ► think he wrote his PhD on PostScript and just wrote, like, as part of his paper—it was

01:03:21 ◼   ► actually a really good read, but it was just a lot of handwritten PostScript to make really

01:03:26 ◼   ► cool vector art.

01:03:29 ◼   ► So fonts really are software and there have been security exploits and vulnerabilities

01:03:34 ◼   ► over the years where certain corrupt fonts or being able to install a certain corrupt

01:03:37 ◼   ► font could lead to problems.

01:03:40 ◼   ► And I always wondered if that was part of it, that the iOS is exceedingly high priority

01:03:46 ◼   ► placed on security was one of the reasons.

01:03:49 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:03:50 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't know either.

01:03:52 ◼   ► Again, it seems like something that Apple would be all over and certainly earlier on

01:03:56 ◼   ► in the cycle than this one.

01:03:57 ◼   ► - But it reminds me of that story, you know,

01:04:00 ◼   ► Ken Kishinda says where he was busy

01:04:02 ◼   ► of getting the keyboard done.

01:04:03 ◼   ► It was so hard to get the keyboard done

01:04:05 ◼   ► that even though he was supposed to get

01:04:06 ◼   ► where he wanted to get copy paste done,

01:04:08 ◼   ► he just couldn't do it for the launch

01:04:10 ◼   ► of the original iPhone.

01:04:11 ◼   ► And then he planned to do it for version two,

01:04:13 ◼   ► but then they had to do the app store

01:04:15 ◼   ► and doing everything for that meant that

01:04:16 ◼   ► there was just absolutely no time to implement copy paste.

01:04:19 ◼   ► So by the time iOS three came around, you know,

01:04:21 ◼   ► finally he could do it.

01:04:23 ◼   ► But it seems like, you know, 12 years

01:04:24 ◼   ► there must have been a nook or cranny somewhere

01:04:26 ◼   ► they could have put font support.

01:04:27 ◼   ► - Right, like I said, it's the fact that we're in year 11

01:04:31 ◼   ► that really makes it seem,

01:04:34 ◼   ► it makes it feel incredible.

01:04:36 ◼   ► - The contention, yeah.

01:04:37 ◼   ► - You know, the delay for copy and paste

01:04:40 ◼   ► was a little weird, but not shocking.

01:04:44 ◼   ► It didn't seem obvious how to do it.

01:04:45 ◼   ► - Well, especially 'cause Apple has like one person

01:04:47 ◼   ► working on this stuff.

01:04:49 ◼   ► - You know, I feel like they stretched it

01:04:50 ◼   ► as long as they could, but then they were like,

01:04:52 ◼   ► we gotta do copy and paste, let's figure this out,

01:04:55 ◼   ► we'll get it in there for iOS 3 or 4,

01:04:57 ◼   ► whatever it was. Yeah, the fonts thing crazy. And it's just, you know, and they tell you

01:05:02 ◼   ► things like you, they want you to be able to say, "Hey, my main computer is my iPad."

01:05:07 ◼   ► Right? And they've got pages and pages as of a couple years ago is feature equivalent

01:05:13 ◼   ► with the Mac version. They use the same file format, but like, in a lot of professional

01:05:18 ◼   ► contexts, you're supposed to use a certain font, you know, like your company font for

01:05:22 ◼   ► letters that go out and stuff like that. Whereas with iOS, there are ways to have fonts and

01:05:30 ◼   ► apps, specific apps can embed their own fonts, all sorts of apps embed a custom font to have

01:05:37 ◼   ► like a non-system look and feel to the interface. But just the good old fashioned, "Hey, our

01:05:44 ◼   ► company uses Adobe Garamond as the company font." So everybody, we have a site license,

01:05:52 ◼   ► as a licensed version, you install Adobe Garamond

01:05:54 ◼   ► on your computers and your devices,

01:05:56 ◼   ► and then there you go, that's what you use.

01:05:59 ◼   ► You can't do that.

01:06:00 ◼   ► So anyway, I'm very excited about that too.

01:06:02 ◼   ► I hope it gets keynote time.

01:06:03 ◼   ► I hope it's not just something that gets thrown in,

01:06:05 ◼   ► 'cause I love fonts.

01:06:07 ◼   ► - Well, it's always like there's this challenge on

01:06:10 ◼   ► if a feature has been so long in coming,

01:06:12 ◼   ► do you announce it and everybody says,

01:06:14 ◼   ► yay, we have it, or do you announce it

01:06:15 ◼   ► and it's so awkward that it took so long

01:06:18 ◼   ► that you just put it in a little word on that slide

01:06:20 ◼   ► that they dropped at the very end?

01:06:21 ◼   ► Hopefully if they have like maybe if they have like the equivalent of the font book

01:06:25 ◼   ► app and there's an app and it and it's a nice interface and they can show it off and it's

01:06:29 ◼   ► yeah you know if it's a really nice implementation and a nice way of managing it I could see

01:06:35 ◼   ► it being worth you know keynote time and just act as though it's completely normal that

01:06:40 ◼   ► it took 11 years to get that.

01:06:42 ◼   ► Can I tell you can I make an aside here I want to make an aside yeah popped into my

01:06:47 ◼   ► my head. I don't know if you're familiar with this, but one of the techniques that the ad

01:06:54 ◼   ► industry on the web has used to track people is fingerprinting the fonts that you have

01:07:02 ◼   ► available. And this sounds crazy, but it actually makes sense. So let's say, so JavaScript can

01:07:07 ◼   ► like query what fonts are available in this browser. And so for example, if you have a

01:07:15 ◼   ► brand new factory fresh MacBook and I have a brand new factory fresh MacBook.

01:07:22 ◼   ► The JavaScript is going to see the same list of fonts, the ones that come with the system.

01:07:28 ◼   ► But let's say I've set mine up and I've put the fonts that I own, my third party fonts,

01:07:33 ◼   ► on my machine.

01:07:34 ◼   ► It's a very high chance that if I have any third party fonts at all, that my exact list

01:07:40 ◼   ► of fonts is, if not unique, close to unique, and therefore could be used so that if I'm

01:07:48 ◼   ► on website A and this company's tracker says, "Okay, here's a list of 37 non-system fonts

01:07:57 ◼   ► on this computer," and then I go to site B and they see the same list of 37 fonts, they

01:08:02 ◼   ► could make the connection and say, "This is probably the same guy on the same computer."

01:08:08 ◼   ► not theoretical. There's actual ad tech out there that does this. So WebKit, I'll conflate

01:08:15 ◼   ► WebKit and Safari. I think it's a WebKit change, but what's the difference? The Web, Apple's

01:08:19 ◼   ► Safari team made a change to keep sites from being able to do this. Safari no longer sees

01:08:29 ◼   ► any fonts other than the ones that are in system library fonts, or maybe slash library

01:08:35 ◼   ► but effectively the ones that come from the factory. Are you with me so far?

01:08:40 ◼   ► Yeah, it's the fingerprinting. The no more fingerprinting stuff is brilliant.

01:08:44 ◼   ► Right. Well, the fingerprinting, I think it's worth it, but there's a downside to it. So,

01:08:50 ◼   ► like let's say, and I know most people with websites today, most websites that use custom

01:08:55 ◼   ► fonts use web fonts and they have the web font as a server side thing that the client

01:09:01 ◼   ► downloads and you could see it and that all still works and isn't changed because it isn't

01:09:04 ◼   ► changing the fonts installed on your system. But there's some repercussions to this. So

01:09:10 ◼   ► Daring Fireball still, although these many years later, the CSS is set to display the body text

01:09:17 ◼   ► in a font called Verdana, which has been a web font that, what's his name, Chris Carter? Matthew

01:09:25 ◼   ► Carter, Matthew Carter. I can't believe I said Chris Carter is the X-Files guy. Matthew Carter,

01:09:32 ◼   ► Type Designer Extraordinaire, one of the great type designers of the modern era, designed

01:09:39 ◼   ► this font from Microsoft in the '90s. They distributed it, they gave it to Apple. It

01:09:43 ◼   ► became a new standard web font. It's one of the fonts that everybody can assume to use.

01:09:49 ◼   ► Is it a system font? If you think that I might have subtly changed the font on Daring Fireball

01:09:57 ◼   ► all in recent months. I have not. I haven't changed anything. But what happens is if you

01:10:06 ◼   ► have Microsoft Office installed, Microsoft installs a, I don't know why, but they installed

01:10:11 ◼   ► their own version of Verdana locally in your user fonts folder. I don't know if it's got

01:10:18 ◼   ► additional glyphs, if it's newer than the one that Apple has. I really don't know why

01:10:22 ◼   ► Microsoft does this, but they put Verdana, they put another copy of, so there's still

01:10:25 ◼   ► the system version of Verdana in the system fonts folder,

01:10:28 ◼   ► but your user, your personal user fonts folder

01:10:31 ◼   ► now has a new copy of Verdana.

01:10:33 ◼   ► Because Safari sees that, it actually,

01:10:37 ◼   ► Safari sees that you have a local version of Verdana,

01:10:40 ◼   ► this anti-fingerprinting technology means

01:10:42 ◼   ► that it won't render Verdana, period.

01:10:44 ◼   ► - Oh no. - And I think,

01:10:46 ◼   ► I'm not quite even sure what it uses,

01:10:48 ◼   ► if it falls back to Helvetica,

01:10:49 ◼   ► I guess it falls back to whatever is next in my CSS,

01:10:52 ◼   ► like as a fallback. - Yeah.

01:10:53 ◼   ► It's probably like just generic sans serif.

01:10:56 ◼   ► I actually don't even remember,

01:10:57 ◼   ► which is probably Helvetica.

01:10:59 ◼   ► So anyway, if you think Daring Fireball

01:11:02 ◼   ► has started looking a little funny in recent months,

01:11:04 ◼   ► the way to fix it is to disable your,

01:11:08 ◼   ► either throw it in the trash or disable it in Fontbook,

01:11:10 ◼   ► the local version of Verdana in your user fonts folder.

01:11:14 ◼   ► - Wow.

01:11:16 ◼   ► - The other side, I don't know how long that aside took me

01:11:20 ◼   ► to relay on this podcast,

01:11:22 ◼   ► but it took me a lot longer to figure out

01:11:25 ◼   ► what the hell was going on

01:11:26 ◼   ► when people first started sending me screenshots

01:11:28 ◼   ► that clearly did not look right.

01:11:30 ◼   ► And I actually spent a lot of time researching this.

01:11:34 ◼   ► (laughs)

01:11:35 ◼   ► - It's amazing, it wouldn't just pull the system font

01:11:38 ◼   ► rather than giving you a different font.

01:11:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, maybe what I should do is file a radar

01:11:43 ◼   ► and reach out to maybe some of the people I know

01:11:45 ◼   ► on the WebKit team and see if they're even aware of this

01:11:48 ◼   ► because it might be an edge case they didn't consider

01:11:51 ◼   ► where there is a system font that they're no longer,

01:11:55 ◼   ► so maybe it should be considered a bug in Safari.

01:11:57 ◼   ► - None of those nerds have Microsoft Office installed

01:11:59 ◼   ► on their machines. - No, there's no way.

01:12:01 ◼   ► That's the thing.

01:12:01 ◼   ► There's nobody working on the,

01:12:03 ◼   ► on the WebKit probably has Office installed.

01:12:08 ◼   ► The other thing too is every single person

01:12:10 ◼   ► who's pinged me either by email or on Twitter and said,

01:12:12 ◼   ► "Hey, did you change the fonts on Daring Firewall?"

01:12:15 ◼   ► Once I figured it out, every single time I say,

01:12:17 ◼   ► "I'll bet you have Microsoft Office installed."

01:12:19 ◼   ► And every time they say, how'd you know?

01:12:22 ◼   ► And then I fill in my text expander snippet

01:12:25 ◼   ► with the explanation.

01:12:27 ◼   ► - That's amazing.

01:12:29 ◼   ► - All right, where were we?

01:12:30 ◼   ► - I guess the new home screen

01:12:34 ◼   ► and then all the iPad specific stuff like multi window

01:12:38 ◼   ► and the back, the undue gesture

01:12:41 ◼   ► and that sort of stuff is interesting.

01:12:43 ◼   ► - That's an interesting one.

01:12:45 ◼   ► So there've been rumors for a long time.

01:12:48 ◼   ► Well, let's save the iPad for the second half of this.

01:12:52 ◼   ► But there have been rumors for a while that Apple was going to redo "Springboard."

01:12:57 ◼   ► It's not user—users aren't supposed to know that, but ever since the original iPhone,

01:13:04 ◼   ► the home screen app is in fact technically an app called Springboard.

01:13:10 ◼   ► And Springboard has all sorts of other duties.

01:13:13 ◼   ► In the early years, it had all sorts of crazy duties.

01:13:16 ◼   ► Like if you brought down Springboard, it effectively brought down the whole OS or at least the

01:13:20 ◼   ► user space part of the OS.

01:13:23 ◼   ► And in large part, Springboard is one of the least changed, at least the home screen experience

01:13:30 ◼   ► of Springboard has not changed much from iOS 2.

01:13:35 ◼   ► I mean iOS 1 was maybe a little bit different because there were no third party apps, so

01:13:39 ◼   ► there was no way to page through multiple.

01:13:40 ◼   ► I forget when.

01:13:41 ◼   ► I think the biggest thing they did was break backboard and frontboard into different entities at some point but nothing

01:13:48 ◼   ► Huge, yeah, so, you know is Apple ever going to radically change the home screen

01:13:54 ◼   ► I mean there's certain things that I I find managing a bunch of apps to be incredibly tedious on

01:14:00 ◼   ► the iPhone I

01:14:03 ◼   ► Just move and I know that you can do things with multi-touch now where you can put them in jiggle mode

01:14:07 ◼   ► and as you dragging an app with one finger you can tap on other apps to add them as a

01:14:13 ◼   ► Multiple app selection and then just drag that collection across home screens

01:14:17 ◼   ► But but who's sober enough to have that level of manual dexterity? Well, not me

01:14:21 ◼   ► It's just very fiddly and especially on the iPhone

01:14:27 ◼   ► It's just really gets complicated to use two hands to just isn't enough screen

01:14:32 ◼   ► Yeah, you know, it's something that works a little better on I've iPad with a big screen

01:14:36 ◼   ► Is there a major springboard update? I don't know

01:14:40 ◼   ► I mean there have been rumors and the rumors sort of suggested that it might have come out last year and

01:14:46 ◼   ► That since it didn't that meant it would come out this year

01:14:48 ◼   ► Yeah

01:14:49 ◼   ► But if so, that's something that hasn't really leaked

01:14:51 ◼   ► And what does that mean? Like does that mean they're gonna change the visual display of the interface or they're just

01:14:57 ◼   ► refactoring the way that it works and splitting it into more components and

01:15:02 ◼   ► Making it more flexible because they've refactored a few times and you wouldn't notice the difference if they didn't tell you about it

01:15:07 ◼   ► What do you what do you think about the way that like the iPhone rules have always been iOS rules have always been

01:15:13 ◼   ► That apps fill in from the top left on a screen

01:15:18 ◼   ► so if you let's say you only have two screens on your iPhone and you have a new app and

01:15:22 ◼   ► You want to drag it to the third screen?

01:15:25 ◼   ► You want to create a new third screen of apps?

01:15:27 ◼   ► That first app you drag is gonna be top left and that's that's where it's gonna be and there you have no choice like you

01:15:33 ◼   ► Can't you can't arbitrarily position them the way that you can on the Mac desktop to me to make the most obvious

01:15:40 ◼   ► Comparison like you drag a folder on the Mac desktop. It goes where it you let go of it. It stays where it is

01:15:46 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean the grass is always greener and when you have a system where you can't spend time customizing it

01:15:53 ◼   ► All you want to do is customize it and then we have a system that's highly customizable

01:15:56 ◼   ► You just wish that you didn't have to waste all this time

01:15:59 ◼   ► customizing it.

01:16:00 ◼   ► And that's sort of the back and forth that goes on

01:16:02 ◼   ► in each human soul.

01:16:03 ◼   ► But there's so many things that you can do here.

01:16:06 ◼   ► Like, and it feels to me like the minus one home screen,

01:16:09 ◼   ► when you swipe over and you get the whole widget display

01:16:12 ◼   ► and Siri suggested is sort of like Apple experimenting

01:16:15 ◼   ► with different possible interface ideas.

01:16:18 ◼   ► And they've just never felt like what they had there

01:16:20 ◼   ► was enough that they could pull the trigger

01:16:22 ◼   ► and make that the default home screen

01:16:24 ◼   ► and then have like a pages of raw icons on the side

01:16:28 ◼   ► like Google has the app tray in Android.

01:16:32 ◼   ► But this is so weird for me

01:16:33 ◼   ► because there's absolutely an advantage to muscle memory

01:16:35 ◼   ► where I know exactly where an app is.

01:16:37 ◼   ► I don't have to think about it.

01:16:38 ◼   ► I just tap it as object permanency, all of those things.

01:16:41 ◼   ► But we've also seen where, you know,

01:16:43 ◼   ► there's different times and places

01:16:44 ◼   ► where I do want other apps to be more accessible

01:16:46 ◼   ► and they might pop up there because of my behavior,

01:16:49 ◼   ► my location, the time of day, all these different signals.

01:16:54 ◼   ► But then maybe I just want that app

01:16:55 ◼   ► that I think is the top left corner.

01:16:57 ◼   ► And some people want widgets on the screen.

01:16:59 ◼   ► Even though I think years ago,

01:17:00 ◼   ► HTC has said like, nobody uses widgets.

01:17:02 ◼   ► Nobody changes the default widgets we put on the screen.

01:17:05 ◼   ► And the home screen was always meant to be a gateway to apps

01:17:08 ◼   ► and not a destination where you're supposed to just park

01:17:10 ◼   ► and look around for a while.

01:17:12 ◼   ► So it feels like it needs to change,

01:17:15 ◼   ► but I'm not sure what would be a change

01:17:16 ◼   ► in the right direction.

01:17:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, I wonder too.

01:17:19 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:17:21 ◼   ► It's just something I'm filing away in my back pocket

01:17:23 ◼   ► and that maybe there's a clever team at Apple

01:17:25 ◼   ► that's been toiling away at years

01:17:27 ◼   ► on some sort of seriously radically new concept for this

01:17:32 ◼   ► or just a better way to do the same basic thing.

01:17:36 ◼   ► I mean, there's gotta be a better way.

01:17:37 ◼   ► - Especially for iPad,

01:17:38 ◼   ► because I think Snell said this on the talk show a while ago

01:17:41 ◼   ► that if Apple had to sit down and create an iPad

01:17:44 ◼   ► in a world without the iPhone,

01:17:45 ◼   ► it would not have that interface as your home screen.

01:17:48 ◼   ► - I completely agree with that, I really do.

01:17:51 ◼   ► It just is not a good match.

01:17:54 ◼   ► It really, even from the very beginning it wasn't.

01:17:56 ◼   ► It just seemed like, as impressed as I was

01:17:59 ◼   ► by the original 2010 iPad,

01:18:01 ◼   ► the home screen spacing always felt a little off.

01:18:05 ◼   ► - It was everything the GarageBand app was.

01:18:07 ◼   ► The GarageBand was almost like the miracle

01:18:09 ◼   ► of modern mobile programming,

01:18:10 ◼   ► and the home screen just looked like an afterthought.

01:18:13 ◼   ► - Yeah. (laughs)

01:18:16 ◼   ► So the iPad is next on the same front.

01:18:19 ◼   ► And that's another one where there were rumors that not I, you know, sometimes I hear things,

01:18:26 ◼   ► I've heard stuff, but I would qualify it as rumblings, not like, "Oh, a little birdie who

01:18:33 ◼   ► knows exactly what is going on told me X, Y, and Z." I don't know anything like that. But the basic

01:18:38 ◼   ► rumblings were that last year, it was under consideration to have a serious change to

01:18:45 ◼   ► multitasking and the home screen on the iPad and it just got cut, supposedly.

01:18:51 ◼   ► All those engineers had to go work on the performance enhancements. They just couldn't

01:18:55 ◼   ► do both at the same time. So, you know, is that coming for the iPad? This is one, like with the

01:19:02 ◼   ► phone, with the home screen, that's just like, oh, that would be cool if they came up with a

01:19:06 ◼   ► better home screen. But I'm not frustrated by the current home screen. So if they don't,

01:19:11 ◼   ► I won't be disappointed. Whereas if the iPad doesn't get some serious love on this front. I'm going to be disappointed

01:19:18 ◼   ► Yeah, and it's it's interesting because I think one of the rumors where we're gonna get tabbed interfaces the way we have on the Mac

01:19:25 ◼   ► And then one of the more recent rumors

01:19:27 ◼   ► I forget if that was from German or not was that it was gonna have a way to swipe between different windows and also multiple

01:19:33 ◼   ► Windows like Safari got a while ago

01:19:35 ◼   ► But would they be side by side or would they be just abstract windows that you could position and again a lot of the stuff

01:19:40 ◼   ► You like you hear the rumor but the actual details of implementation are much harder to sort of sort out

01:19:46 ◼   ► Yeah, and I have to say that I got an iPad. I

01:19:50 ◼   ► mean, I'm glad Safari has an iPad has a tabbed interface and I don't have an idea for something better, but

01:19:58 ◼   ► I don't love it because for me as an

01:20:01 ◼   ► 11 inch iPad user the tabs are always so small always

01:20:06 ◼   ► but it is on the other hand crazy that there's no system-wide standard for here is how for example your

01:20:13 ◼   ► Notes app would have two notes open at the same time like it's kind of crazy. I want all the time, right?

01:20:20 ◼   ► You know if you have a document that supports the concept of saving here's how you close it

01:20:27 ◼   ► Or just like you have the picture-in-picture window so you can have your video floating

01:20:32 ◼   ► but you can't have your notes app or your calculator

01:20:34 ◼   ► or your web.

01:20:35 ◼   ► And I think one of the rumors from Rambo

01:20:36 ◼   ► was that you'll be able to pull calculator out

01:20:38 ◼   ► from the multitasking interface

01:20:40 ◼   ► but it won't be an actual screen.

01:20:41 ◼   ► It'll just be part of the layover, the interface.

01:20:46 ◼   ► It'll never be an actual app,

01:20:47 ◼   ► but it just seems like there's so much they could do there

01:20:50 ◼   ► if they spent the time on it.

01:20:51 ◼   ► - What you're saying for a calculator?

01:20:53 ◼   ► - Yeah, they're actually making a calculator app

01:20:54 ◼   ► but it won't be a full app.

01:20:56 ◼   ► It'll just work.

01:20:57 ◼   ► I forget what they call it.

01:20:57 ◼   ► You know, when you swipe out

01:20:58 ◼   ► and it doesn't really take part of the split view,

01:21:00 ◼   ► It just it's on top of the split view.

01:21:03 ◼   ► It would only exist in that mode, which sounds weird,

01:21:05 ◼   ► but I would love that thing.

01:21:07 ◼   ► - I know exactly what they should call it.

01:21:09 ◼   ► They should call it a desk accessory.

01:21:11 ◼   ► - Yeah, yes.

01:21:13 ◼   ► - 'Cause that, for those of you who don't remember,

01:21:15 ◼   ► that is like I told it was talking about font DA mover,

01:21:18 ◼   ► the DA and font DA mover was desk accessory.

01:21:21 ◼   ► And in the original Macintosh,

01:21:23 ◼   ► which didn't support multitasking in it for the early years,

01:21:26 ◼   ► it did seemingly support multitasking

01:21:29 ◼   ► where you couldn't run a word processor

01:21:32 ◼   ► and a spreadsheet at the same time,

01:21:33 ◼   ► but you could go up to the Apple menu

01:21:35 ◼   ► and there was a list of desk accessories,

01:21:37 ◼   ► things like the calculator.

01:21:40 ◼   ► What was the one that was like a notes app?

01:21:41 ◼   ► - Yeah, I'm blanking on all the names.

01:21:44 ◼   ► - Boy, I can't believe I forgot that.

01:21:46 ◼   ► And there was one--

01:21:46 ◼   ► - But it's whatever you'd have on your blotter,

01:21:47 ◼   ► on your desk at work.

01:21:48 ◼   ► - Yeah, and you could have,

01:21:50 ◼   ► it was effectively like a permanent clipboard

01:21:52 ◼   ► where you could paste pictures or text

01:21:54 ◼   ► for frequently accessed things,

01:21:57 ◼   ► and then you'd open it up

01:21:58 ◼   ► and then you could paste the same picture

01:22:02 ◼   ► or your signature or something like that.

01:22:06 ◼   ► They ran in the memory space of the app you were running.

01:22:09 ◼   ► They were technically not individual apps,

01:22:11 ◼   ► but they looked like apps and the user,

01:22:13 ◼   ► for all the user could see they were,

01:22:15 ◼   ► but technically they weren't.

01:22:17 ◼   ► Anyway, that's what they could call them.

01:22:19 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:22:21 ◼   ► - I would love that.

01:22:21 ◼   ► I would jump up.

01:22:23 ◼   ► - This is why if I ever did go to work for Apple,

01:22:25 ◼   ► I'd be fired within a day.

01:22:27 ◼   ► 'cause I would suggest calling it the desk accessory.

01:22:31 ◼   ► But anyway, that's a good idea.

01:22:32 ◼   ► - I think Phil would yell at you a lot.

01:22:33 ◼   ► Yeah, no, I think all that stuff is great.

01:22:37 ◼   ► It's just you're dealing with a multi-touch inner.

01:22:39 ◼   ► Well, there's also the rumor

01:22:40 ◼   ► that we'll finally be getting mouse support,

01:22:42 ◼   ► but it's gonna be inside accessibility and not,

01:22:45 ◼   ► like you can enable it.

01:22:46 ◼   ► It's just a toggle.

01:22:47 ◼   ► You turn it on and you're fine.

01:22:48 ◼   ► But instead of putting it front and center

01:22:50 ◼   ► or making it a default,

01:22:51 ◼   ► it'll be in the accessibility settings.

01:22:53 ◼   ► - I think that's fine.

01:22:54 ◼   ► I hadn't seen that rumor.

01:22:55 ◼   ► That's actually news to me.

01:22:56 ◼   ► but music to my ears and sounds like a great idea.

01:22:59 ◼   ► - I think T.G. wrote about that.

01:23:01 ◼   ► I think he heard that on the,

01:23:03 ◼   ► I think he has good iPad connections.

01:23:04 ◼   ► - It's a great idea.

01:23:05 ◼   ► It just seems kind of crazy

01:23:07 ◼   ► that like the iPad doesn't support it.

01:23:09 ◼   ► I get, and I think putting it accessibility like that

01:23:11 ◼   ► is a great balance between saying,

01:23:15 ◼   ► look, this is prime, this is for most people

01:23:17 ◼   ► primarily intended to be a completely touch-based system,

01:23:21 ◼   ► but you can use a mouse if you want to.

01:23:24 ◼   ► - For me, it's sort of like when Steve Jobs didn't want

01:23:27 ◼   ► the arrow keys on the Mac because he didn't want developers

01:23:31 ◼   ► to just make class, like command line apps.

01:23:34 ◼   ► He wanted to force people to use the GUI.

01:23:36 ◼   ► And by the same token, there was no,

01:23:38 ◼   ► I mean, it was a terrible keyboard when the iPad came out,

01:23:41 ◼   ► but there was no mouse support

01:23:42 ◼   ► because you had to embrace multi-touch.

01:23:44 ◼   ► But when the iPad Pro came out, I forget what that was, 2015,

01:23:48 ◼   ► and they had the smart keyboard, I think at that point,

01:23:50 ◼   ► you have to realize that if you're gonna create a mode

01:23:53 ◼   ► where people can use it as a laptop alternative,

01:23:56 ◼   ► it should have all the same trimmings

01:23:57 ◼   ► as a laptop alternative

01:23:58 ◼   ► because context switching is terrible.

01:24:01 ◼   ► - I think that the story was that he didn't want,

01:24:03 ◼   ► and the original Macintosh literally shipped

01:24:05 ◼   ► with a keyboard that didn't have arrow keys.

01:24:07 ◼   ► I thought it wasn't about developers, but so much,

01:24:09 ◼   ► although I think that was probably part of it too,

01:24:11 ◼   ► but that he didn't want users using the arrow keys

01:24:13 ◼   ► for text editing either.

01:24:14 ◼   ► He wanted them to use the mouse.

01:24:16 ◼   ► They were so worried, maybe rightfully so,

01:24:19 ◼   ► that because the mouse was a new concept,

01:24:21 ◼   ► that if there were ways not to use a mouse,

01:24:24 ◼   ► people wouldn't use the mouse?

01:24:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, and same with multi-touch,

01:24:27 ◼   ► but again, like 10 years on, you can add some things back.

01:24:31 ◼   ► - Yeah, like the crazy, one of the crazy things

01:24:33 ◼   ► about the original Macintosh compared to all the other PCs

01:24:36 ◼   ► of the time is that you really did need a mouse

01:24:39 ◼   ► and a keyboard, but you could get more done on the Mac.

01:24:42 ◼   ► If you only had one, you'd get more done with the mouse

01:24:44 ◼   ► than you would if you only had the keyboard.

01:24:46 ◼   ► Like you'd be more lost without the mouse

01:24:49 ◼   ► than you would be without the keyboard,

01:24:50 ◼   ► which was insane considering that on all the other computers

01:24:53 ◼   ► at the time you had to turn it on and start typing commands

01:24:56 ◼   ► to make anything happen.

01:24:57 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's interesting the way all this stuff evolves.

01:25:02 ◼   ► I mean, the other one is that, again, is that back gesture

01:25:05 ◼   ► or is not the back gesture, the undo gesture,

01:25:07 ◼   ► because, and you've written about this probably more

01:25:09 ◼   ► than anybody, there was just no universal way to do,

01:25:11 ◼   ► instead of shaking your phone, I don't know if you,

01:25:13 ◼   ► I don't remember if you could shake the iPad or not

01:25:14 ◼   ► because I would never do that.

01:25:16 ◼   ► - No, you can definitely shake your iPad.

01:25:18 ◼   ► - Okay.

01:25:18 ◼   ► always been able to pick it up and shake. You just look like a nut. Like I'm having a fit.

01:25:25 ◼   ► Yeah, this makes so much more sense. I've told this story before. I'll tell it again. I know

01:25:30 ◼   ► someone who worked on the shake to undo gesture. And when was that added? I forget. It wasn't in,

01:25:37 ◼   ► was it with copy and paste? I forget. Maybe. I don't remember Steve ever doing it on stage.

01:25:43 ◼   ► would have been delightful. But it was proposed as a joke because they were stuck, because it is a

01:25:49 ◼   ► tricky problem. The Mac has keyboard shortcuts, which is what most people use. Everybody sort of,

01:25:56 ◼   ► if you're going to learn any keyboard shortcuts, Command-Z is at the top of the list, and it has a

01:26:01 ◼   ► persistent system-wide menu bar for all applications. And every app, one of the most,

01:26:07 ◼   ► if not the single most standardized menu since 1984 is the edit menu. And right there at

01:26:14 ◼   ► the top of every edit menu is undo. Then, you know, wasn't there originally, but now

01:26:20 ◼   ► redo and then cut, copy paste in that order. iPad doesn't have any of those things. Doesn't

01:26:25 ◼   ► have a keyboard that you can count on for shortcuts. It doesn't have a menu bar. So

01:26:29 ◼   ► what do you do? And so somebody jokingly said, well, we could do shit. We could use the accelerometer

01:26:34 ◼   ► and implement shake to undo as a joke.

01:26:38 ◼   ► And I think it was Forstall who was like,

01:26:41 ◼   ► "Yes, that is it, do it."

01:26:43 ◼   ► - Ship it.

01:26:44 ◼   ► - And they were like, "What?"

01:26:45 ◼   ► And they were like, "Make it happen."

01:26:47 ◼   ► And here we are low these many years later

01:26:50 ◼   ► and we still have shake to undo.

01:26:53 ◼   ► - And I mean, I get it because gestures,

01:26:55 ◼   ► either you got to write these arcane spells

01:26:56 ◼   ► on the screen to do things.

01:26:58 ◼   ► And I remember Blackberry 10 did that

01:26:59 ◼   ► where you had to like go up and then diagonally down

01:27:01 ◼   ► and then another way to launch something.

01:27:03 ◼   ► but there's only so many swipe from the side to do things

01:27:06 ◼   ► and they start colliding.

01:27:07 ◼   ► Like even now, just like force press and, or 3D touch

01:27:12 ◼   ► and just putting things and long press are collided

01:27:15 ◼   ► and swiping up to get,

01:27:18 ◼   ► swiping down to get different functions,

01:27:19 ◼   ► I'll often do one and get the other

01:27:21 ◼   ► and you have to be precise sometimes

01:27:22 ◼   ► and it's just, it's not good.

01:27:24 ◼   ► So I get minimizing that, but they should really, I think,

01:27:26 ◼   ► rethink the entire gesture language.

01:27:28 ◼   ► - Yeah, I would like to see them do that.

01:27:30 ◼   ► And I really think that the multitasking stuff

01:27:32 ◼   ► really needs to be rethought. I don't think—it's good that we're not still stuck with one

01:27:38 ◼   ► app at a time, full screen, on every iPad. And I know that there are people like TT and

01:27:47 ◼   ► Jason Snell and other people who are incredibly productive on the iPad and use multitasking

01:27:51 ◼   ► a lot, but to me, the whole multitasking system just doesn't make sense. It really has a

01:27:55 ◼   ► lot of conceptual holes in it. Like the way that the Command tab sometimes doesn't list

01:28:01 ◼   ► apps because you just dragged them out of the—you just drugged it out of the dock,

01:28:05 ◼   ► and it's there, and it's running, and you can see it, but it doesn't show up in the

01:28:08 ◼   ► Command Tab Switcher. And why in the world does the iPad have a Mac-style Command Tab

01:28:13 ◼   ► Switcher in the first place? You know, don't get me started.

01:28:17 ◼   ► Michael Scott I use my MacBook Pro for Final Cut, but I

01:28:20 ◼   ► use my iPad Pro for almost everything else. And it's just simple things like not knowing

01:28:24 ◼   ► which of the two split views I'm in. And I start typing, and it's the wrong window.

01:28:27 ◼   ► Yeah, which again is the sort of thing that is insane to me.

01:28:32 ◼   ► It would have seemed insane to me in the 90s when, if anything, in the 90s as the Mac graphical

01:28:39 ◼   ► user interface evolved and went from the classic look to the, what they call it, platinum look,

01:28:45 ◼   ► it emphasized input focus more.

01:28:49 ◼   ► Like in the original Mac, it was more like iOS where if there were three text fields

01:28:54 ◼   ► in an app, you really kind of had to notice which one had the blinking insertion point

01:28:58 ◼   ► to know which one your typing was going to appear in. And, you know, eventually they

01:29:02 ◼   ► went to the, they put these focus rings around the input that had control. So the text field

01:29:07 ◼   ► that had control would have a blue, fuzzy blue, nice ring around it. And then when you

01:29:13 ◼   ► hit tab to go to the next field, the index focus indicator would move to the next field.

01:29:18 ◼   ► And you had this, this, it was, I think it was, I think I would like to see a return

01:29:22 ◼   ► to that sort of UI design?

01:29:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's like considerate, right?

01:29:25 ◼   ► - Right.

01:29:27 ◼   ► It's not just accessible, it is accessible,

01:29:30 ◼   ► but it's just considerate.

01:29:31 ◼   ► It's just giving you as many visual clues as possible

01:29:34 ◼   ► where focus is.

01:29:35 ◼   ► It's absolutely insane to me that we have an interface

01:29:38 ◼   ► that you could have two apps open side by side

01:29:40 ◼   ► and no indication of which one has input focus.

01:29:43 ◼   ► That's--

01:29:43 ◼   ► - Right, 'cause you never want your user to feel stupid.

01:29:45 ◼   ► Like a lot of people,

01:29:46 ◼   ► some people are really comfortable with computers,

01:29:47 ◼   ► but a lot of people still, even now,

01:29:50 ◼   ► They just, they feel like computers make them feel stupid

01:29:52 ◼   ► or they're inaccessible or they're alienating

01:29:55 ◼   ► and you wanna do everything you can

01:29:56 ◼   ► to make them feel empowered and not make them think,

01:29:58 ◼   ► oh, I don't know where I am.

01:29:59 ◼   ► I'm just gonna go up and get coffee.

01:30:01 ◼   ► - Yeah, so hopefully that's on the list.

01:30:05 ◼   ► I'm really looking forward to it.

01:30:06 ◼   ► I think they could spend a lot of time.

01:30:07 ◼   ► I think they could get a lot of applause

01:30:09 ◼   ► if they have really cool stuff to show

01:30:12 ◼   ► for iOS multitasking.

01:30:14 ◼   ► - And there's one last one that I think is really cool

01:30:16 ◼   ► and that's Safari is finally supposed to get

01:30:19 ◼   ► a download manager, but also a way to force apps

01:30:23 ◼   ► to go into desktop mode, because there's nothing worse

01:30:26 ◼   ► than being on an iPad, going to like Reddit or something,

01:30:28 ◼   ► and it loads the iPhone version of the site,

01:30:30 ◼   ► just because it identifies mobile Safari.

01:30:32 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, that's a big one.

01:30:36 ◼   ► And it's crazy thinking back to the original iPhone

01:30:38 ◼   ► and how, and even the original iPad in 2010,

01:30:43 ◼   ► how limited Safari was at the time,

01:30:46 ◼   ► just in terms of its ability to hold a whole webpage

01:30:48 ◼   ► memory and stuff like that. But there's no doubt at this point that an iPad can clearly

01:30:53 ◼   ► run the full version of WebKit or the desktop version. I shouldn't say full. I don't

01:30:59 ◼   ► want to denigrate the mobile version. It's just…

01:31:01 ◼   ► Jared Ranerelle Real Safari, not full Safari.

01:31:03 ◼   ► Michael Green Right. And so many websites. It's just

01:31:07 ◼   ► one of the, you know, to go back to that Snell thing that if the iPhone didn't exist, the

01:31:11 ◼   ► iPad wouldn't be like this. If the iPhone didn't exist, these sniffers that seem

01:31:15 ◼   ► to want to think that iPads or iPhones wouldn't exist.

01:31:19 ◼   ► - That's like YouTube.

01:31:20 ◼   ► Like there's just no reason for it.

01:31:23 ◼   ► - No, no, not at all.

01:31:24 ◼   ► So yeah, that's a very cool, much rumored linked feature.

01:31:29 ◼   ► It makes a lot of sense.

01:31:31 ◼   ► What else?

01:31:32 ◼   ► Were there any other screenshots that linked?

01:31:34 ◼   ► - Yeah, he had a couple on there and it was really nice.

01:31:37 ◼   ► The return of like the photorealistic tool set for markup.

01:31:41 ◼   ► - Oh, that's right.

01:31:41 ◼   ► - He had a really nicely rendered pencil and pen.

01:31:44 ◼   ► And I don't want to get my hopes up too high

01:31:46 ◼   ► because I think as much as some of the photo realism

01:31:48 ◼   ► went way too far, like when you have Sebastian

01:31:51 ◼   ► drawing those stitched leather sort of apps,

01:31:55 ◼   ► probably a road too far,

01:31:57 ◼   ► but then they went completely the other way.

01:31:59 ◼   ► And it feels like slowly,

01:32:00 ◼   ► maybe we're going to get some semblance of

01:32:03 ◼   ► just again, consideration back in the interface.

01:32:05 ◼   ► - Yeah, some use of depth and really the one thing

01:32:08 ◼   ► that jumped out at me with these tools,

01:32:09 ◼   ► these are the tools you get like in,

01:32:11 ◼   ► I'll bet you see the same or similar icons in notes when you're using the Apple pencil.

01:32:17 ◼   ► Yeah. But on iPhone and iPad, starting with I think, was it just iOS 12? Is this the screenshot

01:32:24 ◼   ► annotation? Is that just a year old or two years old? I think it's iOS 11. We got a quick

01:32:30 ◼   ► action everybody if you take screenshots, and I think everybody takes screenshots, you

01:32:33 ◼   ► know what I'm talking about? We're now instead of just taking a screenshot and it just goes

01:32:38 ◼   ► into your photo roll, now you get the screenshot and you see it and you could throw it out

01:32:44 ◼   ► right away if you don't want it or you get some tools. You can crop it and then you can

01:32:49 ◼   ► like doodle on it and stuff like that. Well, the tools are no longer completely monochrome

01:32:54 ◼   ► and flat. They have a bit of 3D texture, but more importantly is to me the use of color.

01:33:00 ◼   ► like the eraser now is, you know, like pencil pink eraser. The highlighter is actually yellow.

01:33:09 ◼   ► Again, seems a little crazy. But you know, design trends coming fresh air. Yeah, yeah,

01:33:15 ◼   ► design trends. He had some screenshots from the Mac too. And there was like a return of color to

01:33:20 ◼   ► the sidebar. Yes. Yeah, that's another one where I wrote about that recently where I'm hoping for

01:33:25 ◼   ► more vibrant tap-down states across iOS. Just as a personal wish, again, no little birdies

01:33:30 ◼   ► have told me this, but I have noticed, and a couple of readers, maybe it's partly what

01:33:36 ◼   ► inspired it, is some of Apple's own recent apps that have shipped, not ones that we're

01:33:41 ◼   ► looking forward to next week at WWDC, but apps like the new TV app, the updated TV app,

01:33:48 ◼   ► and the updated for this year WWDC app. A lot of Apple's own apps have vibrant tap-down

01:33:55 ◼   ► states on iOS instead of that, as I call it, dishwater gray.

01:33:58 ◼   ► So anyway, yeah, hopefully more stuff along those lines. I think it's right for the

01:34:04 ◼   ► pendulum. I don't expect any kind of radical redesign like the way that iOS 7 was this

01:34:09 ◼   ► radical strip it down to the bones and come up with something wholly new. But I really

01:34:14 ◼   ► would like to see the current look and feel evolve in a more physical dimension and sort

01:34:19 ◼   ► of bring back some depth to the interface.

01:34:21 ◼   ► Jared Polin Yeah, like just the whimsy, the joy, the delight,

01:34:24 ◼   ► like you have fun using it.

01:34:25 ◼   ► Dave Asprey Yeah. Yeah. Well, like I said in my article

01:34:27 ◼   ► last week, it was fun just to tap items in a list in the original iOS. It just felt like

01:34:34 ◼   ► you're lighting this whole thing up in this very cheerful color of blue and now you tap

01:34:38 ◼   ► and it just turns gray.

01:34:40 ◼   ► - And iOS 7 had some of that,

01:34:43 ◼   ► like it had the physics engine

01:34:44 ◼   ► where things would bounce against each other

01:34:46 ◼   ► and that seems to have gone away as well.

01:34:48 ◼   ► It just got no color and very little interaction for a while.

01:34:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, if anything, less physicality, right?

01:34:53 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:34:54 ◼   ► - Oh, the Find My app.

01:34:57 ◼   ► That's the other big one.

01:34:58 ◼   ► That's the, this is much rumored from key Rambo,

01:35:02 ◼   ► but that they're unifying the Find My iPhone

01:35:04 ◼   ► and Find My Friends interface.

01:35:06 ◼   ► Apparently the name, at least the name

01:35:08 ◼   ► that they have a screenshot of the icon for is just called Find My, which is a little

01:35:13 ◼   ► – not that great a name. I saw somebody on Twitter last night said, "Hey, I know

01:35:23 ◼   ► this is heretical, but Apple has this app on the Mac with a perfect name called Finder,

01:35:30 ◼   ► and what if they just rename – what if they rename the Finder files to match the Files

01:35:34 ◼   ► app on iOS, and then reuse the finder app for the find my thing. I think they added

01:35:40 ◼   ► Syracuse to get his opinion and his his one character response was the thumbs down emoji.

01:35:46 ◼   ► And the guy was like, good enough. But anyway, it's a great idea. Right? Because they are so

01:35:55 ◼   ► similar. Why are they separate apps, you know, and I know a couple other podcasts have covered this,

01:36:00 ◼   ► but there's, you know, ATP has talked about it. But it is funny because when you're finding a

01:36:07 ◼   ► person, you're really not finding the person. You're finding them by, you're always finding

01:36:12 ◼   ► a device. Like if I'm sharing my location with you and you say, "Where's John?" It's not,

01:36:18 ◼   ► it doesn't magically know where I am. It knows where my, the device I've chosen to share my

01:36:23 ◼   ► location with, which for most of us is our phone, where our phone is. So it does make sense for them

01:36:29 ◼   ► them to be in one place.

01:36:31 ◼   ► One device keeps track of all your stuff.

01:36:32 ◼   ► The other one keeps track of your friend's primary thing.

01:36:34 ◼   ► All right, let's take a break.

01:36:38 ◼   ► And they have those tags, right?

01:36:39 ◼   ► It's just one more thing.

01:36:40 ◼   ► Oh, yeah.

01:36:40 ◼   ► They're supposedly going to be selling tile-like tags probably

01:36:44 ◼   ► in September that you can put on random other objects

01:36:47 ◼   ► and then look them in.

01:36:49 ◼   ► All right.

01:36:50 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't know if that's really coming out.

01:36:51 ◼   ► Seems crazy.

01:36:52 ◼   ► I don't expect to hear about it at WWDC.

01:36:54 ◼   ► No, me neither.

01:36:55 ◼   ► Seems like a September thing with the iPhones.

01:36:58 ◼   ► But it'll be interesting if there's any clues in the OS that would give up the ghost.

01:37:02 ◼   ► All right, let me take another break here and thank our friends at HulloPillow.

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01:39:43 ◼   ► Anything else on the iOS front?

01:39:45 ◼   ► - No, I think the rest, let's go straight into the Mac.

01:39:48 ◼   ► - Yeah, let's go straight to the Mac.

01:39:49 ◼   ► What are we expecting?

01:39:51 ◼   ► - So the big one is Marzipan phase two, which I will hopefully correct those few apps from

01:39:56 ◼   ► Marzipan phase one.

01:39:59 ◼   ► - I've never been more nervous about something at WWDC than I am about the Marzipan thing

01:40:05 ◼   ► with Mac. It's like I'm almost, it's like I don't know what order they're going to do stuff,

01:40:10 ◼   ► but like I worry if they start with iOS that I'm just going to be zoned out in the audience

01:40:15 ◼   ► and not miss it all waiting for them to please tell me that everything's going to be okay and

01:40:21 ◼   ► that these marzipan apps and UIKit on the Mac are going to be a great way to make great desktop

01:40:26 ◼   ► applications. It's amazing to see like you and a couple other people who are trepidatious about it

01:40:31 ◼   ► And then people like Stratton Smith or Dieter who just want them to go all in on Marzipan immediately.

01:40:36 ◼   ► I uh...

01:40:37 ◼   ► Don't get me started.

01:40:39 ◼   ► So what I've heard is that no one should judge Marzipan based on what happened last year.

01:40:46 ◼   ► That this is a completely, or at least a year more mature technology geared towards developers.

01:40:52 ◼   ► It's gonna have a lot more affordances to make really good Mac apps including like things that you'd expect like the menu bars and multiple windows and all that sort of thing.

01:41:01 ◼   ► stuff. I don't know how much it'll, I guess the worst is that they'll still look like terrible

01:41:06 ◼   ► Mac apps. The middle ground is that they'll look like Mac apps and the good ground is that maybe

01:41:11 ◼   ► they'll give us sort of a peek at what future Mac apps could look like. I don't know. I certainly

01:41:17 ◼   ► hope so. I do. I've known for over a year that that what we've seen as marzipan is clearly not

01:41:23 ◼   ► the I mean, Apple was pretty explicit last year when they introduced it that they're,

01:41:27 ◼   ► you know, this wasn't the whole story. And that Yeah, I think they dropped a giant slide that said

01:41:32 ◼   ► 2019. And it made the the thud sound on the screen. Like I think that they even I mean,

01:41:39 ◼   ► everybody expects it this year, since they preview, they said beta for developers, phase two beta for

01:41:43 ◼   ► developers coming 2019. Yeah. So it's it. If it's not announced, it would be a mess. Yes, everybody

01:41:51 ◼   ► expects it. And the other thing that I've heard is that it's the whole take an iOS app,

01:41:58 ◼   ► click a checkbox or two to make a new target in Xcode, and now you can, in the same way

01:42:05 ◼   ► that your one project can spit out little iPhone app and a big iPad Pro version, you

01:42:12 ◼   ► can have a Mac version and you can create, you know, again, edit your menu bar the way

01:42:16 ◼   ► you'd want to and do all sorts of things that are only Mac specific. But that's only part

01:42:21 ◼   ► of the story is everything I understand, that there's other aspects of this sort of unification

01:42:27 ◼   ► of the developer story between iOS and macOS, including the thing I've heard about is

01:42:33 ◼   ► this declarative UI system, which I'm not equipped to really go into what a declarative

01:42:41 ◼   ► UI system is, and I don't want to get too much sidetracked. But suffice it to say, it's

01:42:46 ◼   ► a way to specify the user interface in a way that a lot of developers, some systems work,

01:42:53 ◼   ► newer GUI systems and APIs work and developers really like it. And it should be, if it works

01:43:00 ◼   ► well, a good way to do something like have an app that literally does run on everything

01:43:05 ◼   ► from four-inch phones to 27-inch iMacs.

01:43:09 ◼   ► **Ezra Klein-Lam:** Yeah. There's two things I sort of like about

01:43:11 ◼   ► this. One is that from who I've heard is involved in the project, I have confidence because

01:43:16 ◼   ► is they generally deliver really, really good,

01:43:18 ◼   ► really flagship stuff.

01:43:20 ◼   ► And two, that it's, this is a problem Apple has to solve

01:43:24 ◼   ► because they're one of the biggest developers making apps

01:43:26 ◼   ► that have to work across a really wide range.

01:43:30 ◼   ► They're the only UI kit for watch developer,

01:43:32 ◼   ► but they're making a lot of apps.

01:43:34 ◼   ► And right now, like messages on the Mac,

01:43:36 ◼   ► it still says sent with fireworks in brackets.

01:43:38 ◼   ► I don't know how, like three years later.

01:43:40 ◼   ► And the whole map, all that stuff is not tenable.

01:43:43 ◼   ► You just, you can't be taken seriously

01:43:45 ◼   ► with that kind of stuff happening.

01:43:46 ◼   ► And they've unified those teams and those teams have,

01:43:49 ◼   ► you know, are working on unified architectures

01:43:51 ◼   ► and they absolutely have, for themselves,

01:43:53 ◼   ► have to get this solved.

01:43:54 ◼   ► And then of course, developers benefit from that.

01:43:57 ◼   ► - Yeah, so zooming out to the big level

01:44:00 ◼   ► and not trying to nitpick specific things like,

01:44:05 ◼   ► oh my God, these apps have to support multiple windows.

01:44:08 ◼   ► Like it's insane that you cannot just,

01:44:10 ◼   ► while you're reading an article in the news app,

01:44:12 ◼   ► you can't double click it to open it in a window

01:44:14 ◼   ► so you can come back to it later

01:44:16 ◼   ► while you continue to browse other stories.

01:44:18 ◼   ► Like the fact that you can't do that is insane,

01:44:20 ◼   ► but let's just skip the individual things like that

01:44:23 ◼   ► and just hope that they fix it.

01:44:24 ◼   ► To me, at a big level, what I want this whole thing to be,

01:44:29 ◼   ► the whole story, what I want it to be is basically,

01:44:33 ◼   ► we've always had great developer tools

01:44:36 ◼   ► and great developer APIs and frameworks

01:44:40 ◼   ► so that developers going all the way back to Next

01:44:44 ◼   ► And so that small team of developers or one developer

01:44:47 ◼   ► can create an app that does so much more

01:44:51 ◼   ► than other platforms would allow a small team to do

01:44:55 ◼   ► because we have these frameworks and APIs

01:44:58 ◼   ► that give you all of this stuff.

01:45:01 ◼   ► So that apps like Acorn and Pixelmator

01:45:05 ◼   ► can stand toe to toe with Photoshop in so many regards.

01:45:09 ◼   ► Not every regard, I know, it's Photoshop is still Photoshop.

01:45:11 ◼   ► And I'm sure we're gonna hear about Photoshop

01:45:13 ◼   ► I've had next week. But because there's these great core image and all sorts of other APIs,

01:45:21 ◼   ► a one developer team like Gus Mueller working on Acorn or the few developers working on Pixelmator

01:45:29 ◼   ► can make apps that do these amazing things that in the classic Mac OS just wasn't feasible because

01:45:35 ◼   ► you needed an Adobe-sized team to get all that stuff in there. Well, the world's moved on,

01:45:41 ◼   ► though, right? And a lot of the things that are great about AppKit are the exact same things that

01:45:47 ◼   ► were great about AppKit 15, 16, 17 years ago. So my hope is that this story is we've always prided

01:45:53 ◼   ► ourselves on this, but where are we going? Where's the puck going? Here's what it is. Here's our

01:45:58 ◼   ► story for this is the future of making apps on all of our platforms. And this is a great way to make

01:46:07 ◼   ► great apps. That's the story I want to hear. What I don't want to hear is here's an easy

01:46:14 ◼   ► way to get your existing iPhone app running in a window on a Mac. Just click these two

01:46:22 ◼   ► buttons and your iPhone app is now running on a Mac and now you've got a Mac app.

01:46:26 ◼   ► Yeah, if we still want apps from people who care deeply about Mac apps. Right, right.

01:46:31 ◼   ► What I want is to make it, this is just great APIs and tools and techniques and ways of

01:46:38 ◼   ► doing this so that whatever great Mac app you're imagining and whatever great Mac features

01:46:43 ◼   ► you're imagining for your existing app, here is a way to make you, the developers, more

01:46:51 ◼   ► capable and more efficient and get more done sooner in a richer way to make a great experience

01:46:58 ◼   ► for your users.

01:47:00 ◼   ► we've seen we've seen over the years like Lauren Briktor made twee and Sean Herbert the icon factory made chameleon because this was a problem that

01:47:06 ◼   ► They needed to solve and it's it's never been they just couldn't maintain it because who can keep up with the whole UI get team

01:47:11 ◼   ► But Apple can right? Yes, absolutely. Only Apple can solve this really for their platforms. Hopefully that's the story

01:47:18 ◼   ► It would make so much sense to me if it were and then I can imagine

01:47:22 ◼   ► After it's been announced speaking to people at Apple and they would say I can't believe you ever doubted us

01:47:28 ◼   ► [laughter]

01:47:29 ◼   ► That's what I want.

01:47:30 ◼   ► Right.

01:47:31 ◼   ► That's what I want.

01:47:32 ◼   ► I want them to say to me, "Groubs, I can't believe you ever doubted us.

01:47:37 ◼   ► Why in the world would we just make this a dumb thing so that your iPhone app can just

01:47:43 ◼   ► run like it is in the simulator on the Mac, even though it's not suitable to a mouse

01:47:51 ◼   ► and keyboard-based interface?"

01:47:53 ◼   ► So…

01:47:54 ◼   ► Now, do you think people will be allowed to ship?

01:47:55 ◼   ► because it's going to be in beta, which means people may not be allowed to ship on it, but I

01:47:58 ◼   ► wonder how long that will last. Like, can developers play around with it? Will they be allowed to ship

01:48:03 ◼   ► Marzipan-based apps in September? Will they have to wait a year before it comes out of beta and

01:48:07 ◼   ► they're allowed to ship? Yeah, I really wonder. I, you know, it's so much is still up in the air

01:48:14 ◼   ► on that, this whole front for next week. It's the number one thing I'm looking forward to next week

01:48:19 ◼   ► by far. And I've, it might be the thing I've been looking forward to the most at a WWDC ever since,

01:48:27 ◼   ► I don't know, in memory, because even the app store didn't ship it up. It wasn't announced

01:48:34 ◼   ► at WWDC, right? Remember they held like a one-off event in February or something like that.

01:48:38 ◼   ► **Matt Stauffer** And Swift was a complete surprise. Nobody was expecting it.

01:48:42 ◼   ► **TK; Right. Swift was a complete surprise. Nobody was expecting it. So

01:48:46 ◼   ► Among things that I'm expecting at a WWDC, I can't think of anything greater than this future of how

01:48:52 ◼   ► are you going to write software for the Mac and other platforms. And will it be Mac App Store

01:48:57 ◼   ► only or can anybody use? Right. Like there's just so many questions. Right. Again. Yeah. It's,

01:49:03 ◼   ► you know, are these going to be a new class of app that is only limited to the App Store? I hope not.

01:49:09 ◼   ► Yeah, I hope not either. But we shall see. Along those lines, there's also the chance on the

01:49:15 ◼   ► hardware front that we're going to find out about the Mac Pro that we're currently waiting for.

01:49:21 ◼   ► And I'm going to call this a long shot, but it's going to seem like a long shot every year until

01:49:28 ◼   ► all of a sudden it happens is to get word of a transition from Intel processors to ARM

01:49:35 ◼   ► in-house designed by Apple processors for the Mac.

01:49:38 ◼   ► **Ezra Klein-Lam

01:49:38 ◼   ► - This was not a good week.

01:49:41 ◼   ► I don't know if you follow all the processes

01:49:42 ◼   ► but this is not a good week for Intel.

01:49:43 ◼   ► - No, I saw that AMD launched seven nanometer chips.

01:49:48 ◼   ► - Yeah, and Intel's like we kind of

01:49:51 ◼   ► 'cause Intel's 10 nanometers is basically the similar

01:49:54 ◼   ► to Taiwan semiconductor manufacturing seven nanometer.

01:49:57 ◼   ► And they're like, we have this one.

01:49:58 ◼   ► This one thing is almost ready.

01:50:01 ◼   ► But AMD is just clowning them on price

01:50:03 ◼   ► and performance to a staggering degree.

01:50:06 ◼   ► - Yeah, and even if, whatever you wanna think,

01:50:09 ◼   ► whatever you think about Intel's current fortunes,

01:50:11 ◼   ► I just know, I know firsthand,

01:50:12 ◼   ► firsthand that Apple has been frustrated

01:50:16 ◼   ► with Intel for a while, you know, that that's--

01:50:18 ◼   ► - They can't ship, they're not producing,

01:50:19 ◼   ► even the chips that they can produce,

01:50:21 ◼   ► they're not producing sufficient quantities

01:50:23 ◼   ► for Apple to fill orders.

01:50:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, you know, it really is uncanny

01:50:27 ◼   ► how the Steve Jobs announcement in 2005

01:50:30 ◼   ► of the Intel transition from PowerPC,

01:50:34 ◼   ► how it really could translate into exactly just word for word what they would say about

01:50:39 ◼   ► this transition, that it's not just about increased power, it's power per watt, meaning

01:50:44 ◼   ► the size of the chip and the power that it consumes and the amount of battery life it

01:50:48 ◼   ► consumes in a battery powered device and how much performance you get out of it. It's everything

01:50:53 ◼   ► you said about it is exactly what I think people are hoping to get out of ARM-based

01:50:58 ◼   ► Macs in the future. And then the other thing that Jobs said in that great, great introduction,

01:51:02 ◼   ► It's just amazing. It's just a masterpiece of jobs keynote. Yes eating because he covers

01:51:08 ◼   ► this whole thing the whole it's like six minutes in the Mac as we knew it was going to be completely

01:51:15 ◼   ► up ended in 12 over the course of 12 months. Every bit of software you run should be updated.

01:51:20 ◼   ► I mean there was the the Rosetta emulator so your old apps would keep running but they

01:51:25 ◼   ► updated all the hardware went to an entirely new architecture and he covered the whole

01:51:29 ◼   ► thing and and and of course he's pitching this to the people who are most interested

01:51:33 ◼   ► in it developers he covered the whole thing in like six minutes but the one thing he says

01:51:39 ◼   ► that's I think so true is something to the effect of we can imagine hardware products

01:51:47 ◼   ► great new hardware products that we can't build based on the chips in the power PC roadmap

01:51:54 ◼   ► And that's exactly that's what Apple's been running into with Intel, you know that the

01:52:00 ◼   ► the MacBook Air the modern retina MacBook Air that we now have Apple had that imagined and they

01:52:07 ◼   ► didn't have chips from Intel to make it happen. Yeah, no, it's it's it's bananas. And the just

01:52:15 ◼   ► the MacBook Pro they just shipped Intel because they can't, you know, they can't improve their

01:52:20 ◼   ► the processor throwing cores at it.

01:52:22 ◼   ► So you have an eight core Intel processor now

01:52:25 ◼   ► crammed into a chassis that was expecting fewer cores

01:52:28 ◼   ► at seven nanometer or 10 nanometers.

01:52:30 ◼   ► And they've done an amazing job handling the thermals.

01:52:33 ◼   ► A lot of people, I think a lot of people,

01:52:35 ◼   ► like they run Geekbench and think they understand thermals,

01:52:38 ◼   ► but there's modern chips that are way more complicated

01:52:40 ◼   ► than that.

01:52:41 ◼   ► And they've done an amazing job at getting as much

01:52:43 ◼   ► performance as they can in that chassis.

01:52:45 ◼   ► But boy, did they probably want way better chips

01:52:47 ◼   ► in that chassis.

01:52:48 ◼   ► - So here's the question though.

01:52:49 ◼   ► The question is, if, and I really think the if is looking like unlikely.

01:52:56 ◼   ► I think it's when.

01:52:57 ◼   ► When Apple announces this transition.

01:53:00 ◼   ► Do they do it the way they did the Intel, PowerPC to Intel, which is to say by announcing

01:53:06 ◼   ► it at WWDC, telling developers, saying here's how you can use Xcode to get your apps recompiled

01:53:15 ◼   ► for the new architecture so they run natively.

01:53:18 ◼   ► Here's the story of what's gonna happen to old software

01:53:21 ◼   ► that's been compiled for Intel.

01:53:22 ◼   ► Will there be some sort of emulator

01:53:23 ◼   ► so that the apps will still run on ARM or not?

01:53:27 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:53:28 ◼   ► Explain it all and say,

01:53:30 ◼   ► we're going to start shipping these machines

01:53:32 ◼   ► later this year or early next year.

01:53:35 ◼   ► And in 2005 with the Intel transition,

01:53:38 ◼   ► they had the first hardware they had

01:53:39 ◼   ► where they called them developer transition kits.

01:53:43 ◼   ► They looked like Power Mac G5 chassis,

01:53:46 ◼   ► but they just had Intel computers inside.

01:53:49 ◼   ► And they didn't sell them.

01:53:50 ◼   ► I think they only leased them to developers.

01:53:52 ◼   ► It was like they didn't even want to sell them.

01:53:53 ◼   ► - You had to get them back

01:53:54 ◼   ► and then you got iMac or something.

01:53:56 ◼   ► - Right, you gave them back

01:53:57 ◼   ► and they gave you an Intel-based iMac.

01:53:59 ◼   ► But they gave them, there were ways for developers

01:54:01 ◼   ► to get officially supported Intel-based Macs

01:54:04 ◼   ► before consumers did so they could get their apps recompiled.

01:54:08 ◼   ► Would they do that the same way again?

01:54:09 ◼   ► tell developers first, risk people stop buying existing Mac hardware waiting for these things

01:54:17 ◼   ► to appear, or is this the sort of thing where Apple is in a different position today than

01:54:23 ◼   ► they were in 2005 and they can just wait till the machines are ready, announce them, and

01:54:28 ◼   ► then say, "Developers, you're already late."

01:54:32 ◼   ► Or do you say like we plug your iPad into your Mac over this USB-C cable, Xcode takes

01:54:37 ◼   ► over and you test on the iPad.

01:54:39 ◼   ► Right. I still think it's the sort of thing they might do the same way they did the last

01:54:44 ◼   ► time and tell us in advance before the Mac hardware ships with these chips. But I don't

01:54:50 ◼   ► know. I could see Apple doing it a very different way and waiting until they have them and say

01:54:55 ◼   ► there's, you know, even with—but that would mean shipping them with no developer,

01:55:01 ◼   ► no native apps for it. I mean, I guess there's some chance that—

01:55:04 ◼   ► The Marzipan apps will run great.

01:55:06 ◼   ► I guess right, you know that marzipan apps would be able to be what's that technology the

01:55:11 ◼   ► thing where they can change the the

01:55:14 ◼   ► interim representation. Yeah, not bit something

01:55:18 ◼   ► God I'm blanking on it to bitcode. Yeah bitcode

01:55:24 ◼   ► I think I don't know but whatever that maybe they could do it on the App Store end and have