The Talk Show

00:00:00 ◼   ► Welcome to the show.

00:00:01 ◼   ► I can't believe how long it's been since I've had you on the show.

00:00:05 ◼   ► It's been a bit. Yeah.

00:00:06 ◼   ► You're you're I mean this sincerely, and I don't mean, I'm not just saying this

00:00:12 ◼   ► because you're on the show. You you're one of the nicest and most empathetic,

00:00:17 ◼   ► um, people I've ever met. You're, you're truly,

00:00:21 ◼   ► you're just a good person. And you, the way you brought,

00:00:24 ◼   ► the way you brought this up to me,

00:00:26 ◼   ► was excruciating.

00:00:31 ◼   ► Yeah, it was hard for me too.

00:00:34 ◼   ► So we're working together on my show, my WWDC show.

00:00:40 ◼   ► And then you mentioned this and I was, you know, something to the,

00:00:43 ◼   ► I can't even do it. I can't even be as exquisitely nice and sensitive as you.

00:00:49 ◼   ► I can't even paraphrase it, but you mentioned it. And I thought, well, that's,

00:00:52 ◼   ► you know, probably is true in the back of my head.

00:00:55 ◼   ► I'll bet it's been at least a year since I've had Adam on.

00:00:57 ◼   ► And then I looked at my podcast feed and then like searched for your name.

00:01:02 ◼   ► And it was like 13 years ago.

00:01:05 ◼   ► Yeah. And you know, you start to wonder, like I start to wonder, wow. Uh, did I,

00:01:12 ◼   ► did you get some, did you get some complaints about me as a guest? I mean,

00:01:16 ◼   ► that was my, that was the way I phrased the question I think was like, Hey,

00:01:20 ◼   ► cause I love being on your show.

00:01:22 ◼   ► I love doing this type of format way,

00:01:25 ◼   ► way more than one in which I have to improvise and be funny because I'm not

00:01:29 ◼   ► great at that. But I like,

00:01:30 ◼   ► I don't mind talking about things that I'm thinking about. So I like doing,

00:01:34 ◼   ► I like being a guest and have been a guest a number of times. And then,

00:01:38 ◼   ► and then it has, it's been a while. So I started thinking, Oh God did. Um,

00:01:42 ◼   ► cause you have a, a vocal, you know, fan base listenership. And I wondered if they,

00:01:47 ◼   ► if they just like wrote you one too many emails that said, do not,

00:01:51 ◼   ► do not have that guy back on your show again.

00:01:53 ◼   ► Well, and then the worst part is,

00:01:55 ◼   ► cause I'm nowhere near as good a person as you or as empathetic,

00:02:00 ◼   ► but I remember things and I have a terrible, uh, uh,

00:02:05 ◼   ► Catholic guilt, even though I'm not the least bit religious, it's like, I did.

00:02:09 ◼   ► That's the one thing I picked up. And I remember from years ago,

00:02:14 ◼   ► literally no joke years ago,

00:02:16 ◼   ► there was a time when you were on the show and I just,

00:02:21 ◼   ► I purely absentmindedly forgot to do the thing where I post a link to the show on

00:02:26 ◼   ► the daring fireball blog.

00:02:28 ◼   ► So like the show went into the talk show feed and it's on the talk show section

00:02:33 ◼   ► of the site and anybody who subscribed goes in their podcast player.

00:02:36 ◼   ► But I just never did the thing which I do for every new show,

00:02:39 ◼   ► which is then I post a link list item to the show and I repeat the description

00:02:44 ◼   ► and thank the sponsors to, you know, give them some extra love. Uh,

00:02:49 ◼   ► and I just, you know, idiot that I am completely forgot to do it.

00:02:53 ◼   ► And you thought maybe it was cause I thought the show sucked.

00:02:57 ◼   ► Oh man. Do you remember that's embarrassing. That's embarrassing.

00:03:01 ◼   ► But you didn't say it that way, of course, because you're a good person,

00:03:05 ◼   ► but I could read between the lines and thought, Oh God,

00:03:08 ◼   ► Adam's worried that I thought the show was terrible that I had to post it

00:03:12 ◼   ► anyway. When in fact it was just me being an idiot and having this terrible

00:03:16 ◼   ► system, me being self aware that I'm absentminded

00:03:21 ◼   ► and then having a production system for posting the show that depends upon me

00:03:26 ◼   ► remembering to do X, Y, and Z.

00:03:29 ◼   ► You know what? We're both great. We're both flawed and great.

00:03:33 ◼   ► And this is going to be a fun show. There was one,

00:03:37 ◼   ► there was one episode that we'd,

00:03:39 ◼   ► that I was a guest on where I remember I did zero prep for it.

00:03:43 ◼   ► I didn't read up on the latest stuff. I, I, I,

00:03:46 ◼   ► I'd been sort of out of the Apple loop for a bit and

00:03:51 ◼   ► then we just, and then I just kind of bullshit for like, you know,

00:03:55 ◼   ► an hour and a half.

00:03:55 ◼   ► I think we talked about the latest Apple TV or something and it was just,

00:03:59 ◼   ► didn't feel great about it. So I, I've like, I should actually do some,

00:04:04 ◼   ► you know, I do some research this time,

00:04:07 ◼   ► potentially install the beta OS and break my laptop

00:04:11 ◼   ► just so I have something to talk about.

00:04:16 ◼   ► Uh, well, speaking of sponsors and speaking of, uh,

00:04:20 ◼   ► you, Adam, I, I got a, uh, extra sponsor this week.

00:04:25 ◼   ► Um, and I'm really happy to tell you about them, but it's ATOMS, A T O M S.

00:04:31 ◼   ► They're, uh, yeah, they make great shoes, uh,

00:04:36 ◼   ► which is very funny because ever since they started sponsoring the show last

00:04:39 ◼   ► year, remember when we used to meet face to face, uh,

00:04:43 ◼   ► at WWDC last year, just 2019,

00:04:47 ◼   ► I saw a bunch of people at WWDC who had Adam's shoes on and I was like, wow,

00:04:52 ◼   ► they're really popular. And then like,

00:04:54 ◼   ► I worked up the gumption to ask somebody and they're like, yeah, I got them.

00:04:56 ◼   ► I heard about them from your website and I was, Oh, I'm at WWDC.

00:05:01 ◼   ► Somehow I kind of know that sponsorships work,

00:05:07 ◼   ► but I don't often see the results of it. You know,

00:05:10 ◼   ► like somebody can advertise an app on daring fireball. I don't know who's,

00:05:13 ◼   ► who's running the app, but people had the shoes. They're great shoes.

00:05:16 ◼   ► I wear them almost every day. I love them.

00:05:18 ◼   ► But the other thing they're making out,

00:05:20 ◼   ► I want to tell you about is the Adam's everyday face mask. Look,

00:05:24 ◼   ► Adam stands for quality.

00:05:26 ◼   ► Their mask is made with the same premium materials as their shoes,

00:05:30 ◼   ► combining innovation and comfort with the anti microbial properties of

00:05:35 ◼   ► copper, making it one of the most effective masks on the market.

00:05:38 ◼   ► It's available in a variety of colors. It's breathable, washable,

00:05:42 ◼   ► reusable, and every time you buy a mask,

00:05:46 ◼   ► they donate a mask to charity with each purchase.

00:05:49 ◼   ► They've also got the sneaker. You can check them out. Great.

00:05:53 ◼   ► The genius of their thing is that they, they sell the sneakers in quarter size,

00:05:58 ◼   ► which sounds really finicky, but I'm telling you,

00:06:01 ◼   ► I've known this since I was a kid, always felt very self-conscious about it.

00:06:05 ◼   ► My left foot has always been a half size larger than my right foot.

00:06:08 ◼   ► I don't know why I feel so conscious about it.

00:06:12 ◼   ► But it's kind of awesome to be able to buy shoes where you can do this.

00:06:17 ◼   ► And then you don't know what your quarter size is. You can just buy like,

00:06:20 ◼   ► you know, order, like it's like Warby Parker a little bit,

00:06:22 ◼   ► where you can order two sizes,

00:06:24 ◼   ► try them on at home and then send the ones back that you don't need the sizes

00:06:28 ◼   ► you don't want. Anyway, I love their masks.

00:06:30 ◼   ► The masks also come in different sizes. I have a big fat head.

00:06:34 ◼   ► I need the size large. Most people would take a medium.

00:06:37 ◼   ► Anytime I'm out and about in Philadelphia,

00:06:40 ◼   ► I'm almost certainly wearing my Adams mask. I really do like it.

00:06:43 ◼   ► Go to Adams,

00:06:45 ◼   ► atoms.com/dfm,

00:06:46 ◼   ► daring fireball mask,

00:06:50 ◼   ► DFM,

00:06:51 ◼   ► adams.com/dfm.

00:06:52 ◼   ► Check them out.

00:06:54 ◼   ► Is, is it the ear loop style of mask?

00:06:57 ◼   ► It is an ear loop style of mask. It's sort of two pieces of,

00:07:01 ◼   ► it's not cotton. It's a sort of a foamy type thing,

00:07:06 ◼   ► sort of like the insert to a shoe and then stitch together in the middle.

00:07:11 ◼   ► So you get a little bit of a conical effect in front of your mouth,

00:07:14 ◼   ► which to me is key for me personally, with a mask key,

00:07:18 ◼   ► get a little bit away from my mouth, your loop style around the, around the,

00:07:21 ◼   ► around the ears.

00:07:23 ◼   ► Well, that makes sense. Cause their shoes have those stretchy laces so that you,

00:07:27 ◼   ► you would, you would expect them to innovate and they in the loop,

00:07:30 ◼   ► manufacturer. I,

00:07:34 ◼   ► I think that's the thing that makes a mask most comfortable for me is the,

00:07:38 ◼   ► you know,

00:07:38 ◼   ► when there was a shortage of masks and nobody really knew how to get go out and

00:07:42 ◼   ► get a mask and you just kind of like grabbed what was available.

00:07:46 ◼   ► It was like the first ones that I tried on on my big fat head as well would pull

00:07:51 ◼   ► my ears forward and they were uncomfortable and it really sucked.

00:07:54 ◼   ► And I thought that this is not sustainable.

00:07:56 ◼   ► But then as soon as I found a mask with the right material on the loops,

00:07:59 ◼   ► you know, it was, it was game over. These days I've been doing a,

00:08:03 ◼   ► like more of a neck Gator style, the ones that, you know,

00:08:06 ◼   ► the tube that you pull over your whole thing. Cause I feel,

00:08:08 ◼   ► I feel like it's a kind of a cool look, you know?

00:08:11 ◼   ► Well, it's, you know, as we,

00:08:15 ◼   ► as we go on and without even delving into the political

00:08:19 ◼   ► aspects of it, if we're just going to all wear masks, our faces are,

00:08:23 ◼   ► you know,

00:08:25 ◼   ► they vary in size and we all wear different shoes because we like different

00:08:29 ◼   ► styles and we have different feet that feel comfortable and different shoes.

00:08:33 ◼   ► It's no surprise that we need different masks.

00:08:35 ◼   ► And so I've found it to be fascinating here in the Gruber household,

00:08:39 ◼   ► what the various members find more comfortable.

00:08:43 ◼   ► I do. I re you know, and you know, you can't, in some ways you can't beat those paper ones,

00:08:49 ◼   ► you know, that is just the like, but they're hard to get there.

00:08:51 ◼   ► They're still hard to get and they're not, you know, N95 medical, you know,

00:08:55 ◼   ► they're just, you know, the ones that look like the light blue surgical ones,

00:08:59 ◼   ► right? Come in a box of 12. Yeah. They're pretty good for the heat.

00:09:02 ◼   ► Amy likes those now that it's, you know,

00:09:04 ◼   ► literally like heat index is like a hundred degrees, 98 degrees today. Uh,

00:09:08 ◼   ► pretty hot. Anyway, masks. I like those.

00:09:12 ◼   ► I like those a bandana type things. That's what you're talking about.

00:09:15 ◼   ► Like you put the tube over your head.

00:09:17 ◼   ► Yeah. You pull it down. There's fun colors. Um, I don't know.

00:09:22 ◼   ► I got one with a galaxy kind of a pattern on it, sort of like the early, um,

00:09:26 ◼   ► you know, Mac OS wallpaper, you know, you remember the, like sort of like,

00:09:31 ◼   ► Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I got one with that sort of thing. I wasn't,

00:09:35 ◼   ► it wasn't like an homage to the Mac desktop or anything,

00:09:38 ◼   ► but I just kind of liked it. It was on Amazon for like $11. And I, uh,

00:09:42 ◼   ► put it on and, uh, Roxanne on my partner said, Oh,

00:09:46 ◼   ► Ooh, no, no, no, no, no, no. But they wore it anyway. Whatever

00:09:50 ◼   ► important thing is that I feel good. Right? Yeah, exactly.

00:09:56 ◼   ► Um,

00:10:00 ◼   ► I do think it's interesting. I think it's kind of interesting when you go out,

00:10:03 ◼   ► like I just saw a survey, um,

00:10:06 ◼   ► that Philadelphia, I don't know who knows these, these surveys. I always,

00:10:10 ◼   ► you know, I don't know how they conduct them. I don't think it's the, you know,

00:10:13 ◼   ► the rigorous people at Gallup, but there was some kind of survey of, um,

00:10:17 ◼   ► what percentage of people in each city around the country are wearing masks and

00:10:23 ◼   ► Philadelphia was like at the top or near the top. Um,

00:10:26 ◼   ► but it's like the old analogy about Pennsylvania, um,

00:10:30 ◼   ► which I'll never forget. And which is very true,

00:10:33 ◼   ► which is that Pennsylvania is sort of a microcosm of the United States where you

00:10:37 ◼   ► got Philadelphia on the one coast, Pittsburgh on the other,

00:10:40 ◼   ► and Alabama in the middle. Um,

00:10:43 ◼   ► like the Pennsylvania state capital Harrisburg, which is, you know, again,

00:10:47 ◼   ► picked to be the capital, I guess, cause it's in the middle.

00:10:49 ◼   ► It has like one of the lowest rates of mask wearing in the country. But anyway,

00:10:53 ◼   ► you go out for a walk in Philadelphia, you, you really do.

00:10:56 ◼   ► It's really rare not to see some, see somebody not wearing a mask now.

00:11:00 ◼   ► And if they're not there, you know,

00:11:03 ◼   ► they usually it's like around their chin or something like that.

00:11:05 ◼   ► And they're just taking it off in the heat. And then when, as people come by,

00:11:09 ◼   ► they lift it up. Uh, it's interesting to me,

00:11:12 ◼   ► cause it's same thing as like, I look at people's phones when I'm in airports,

00:11:15 ◼   ► remember airports.

00:11:16 ◼   ► I like to see what people pick for their mask and it is sort of like

00:11:22 ◼   ► phone cases. You know, people it's it, you,

00:11:24 ◼   ► you could go all day and you might not see the same mask twice.

00:11:28 ◼   ► That's right. It's a style choice that no,

00:11:31 ◼   ► but he expected that we would be making.

00:11:33 ◼   ► It's a combination style choice and comfort choice. Right.

00:11:37 ◼   ► And you can kind of,

00:11:38 ◼   ► if you're a nerd like me and you just preoccupy yourself thinking about stuff

00:11:42 ◼   ► like that,

00:11:42 ◼   ► and then almost get hit by a bus crossing the street cause you're looking at

00:11:46 ◼   ► people's masks. Um, you, I like to play the game. I did,

00:11:50 ◼   ► did that fellow pick that mask cause he thinks it's comfortable or did he,

00:11:53 ◼   ► did he pick it cause the way it looks or a little bit of column a little bit of

00:11:57 ◼   ► column B. Um, yeah, yeah. I think it's, yeah, you're right.

00:12:02 ◼   ► It's a little bit of both. It's a mix, but I, but I always, you know, you, we,

00:12:06 ◼   ► we universally appreciate it seeing, seeing it on each other. Cause sometimes,

00:12:11 ◼   ► you know, we have our preconceptions about people and you know,

00:12:15 ◼   ► just from whatever, from their, their other style choices or, you know,

00:12:19 ◼   ► whatever it's, we, we sort of formed these biases.

00:12:23 ◼   ► But so when you see somebody that you would, maybe you, you would think, Oh,

00:12:28 ◼   ► that person

00:12:29 ◼   ► looks a little bit more like somebody in the,

00:12:33 ◼   ► in the places where they wouldn't wear masks and they are wearing a mask and

00:12:37 ◼   ► you're like, yeah, yes, one love. We are all, we are all the same. And,

00:12:42 ◼   ► and that I, I just appreciate it. I think it's great.

00:12:45 ◼   ► So it's like a good signifier that we're, you know, we're in this together.

00:12:50 ◼   ► Yeah. I, and it was more of a thing weeks ago, months ago,

00:12:54 ◼   ► who knows in this time,

00:12:55 ◼   ► but like when it was a sort of a non

00:13:00 ◼   ► majority of people out, although at that time it was also more, you know,

00:13:05 ◼   ► here in Philadelphia, it was a lot more like, Hey,

00:13:07 ◼   ► you should really only be going out for like emergency rations, uh,

00:13:12 ◼   ► rations, rations. I've, how do you say rations? Yeah. Yeah, whatever. I guess.

00:13:17 ◼   ► Um, but you would, you'd see people with a mask and then you just give them the,

00:13:21 ◼   ► not, you know, it's like, yeah, team mask. Yeah. Yeah. Good stuff.

00:13:26 ◼   ► I remember, I don't know if you,

00:13:27 ◼   ► if you recall the first person out there in the world that you saw wearing a

00:13:32 ◼   ► mask, but it was striking. Um, yeah. Cause I've, I've been to Japan,

00:13:35 ◼   ► I've been to places where it's, it's just normal practice. If you're,

00:13:40 ◼   ► if you have a cold or something,

00:13:41 ◼   ► you wear a mask to protect other people from your germs. But, um,

00:13:46 ◼   ► really had never seen somebody out on the street.

00:13:48 ◼   ► And I was in the neighborhood where my office is in downtown and I saw

00:13:53 ◼   ► somebody, a very stylish young person. Um,

00:13:56 ◼   ► I was driving and I saw them walking and they had a mask on. And if,

00:14:01 ◼   ► if for like that very brief moment, it felt like, Oh,

00:14:04 ◼   ► this is a glimpse into the future. It felt sci-fi in that way. And I also,

00:14:09 ◼   ► I had a reaction that was like, Oh, that's overkill.

00:14:11 ◼   ► Because at the time we were hearing, you know, you don't need to wear a mask.

00:14:15 ◼   ► It's, uh, you know, wash your hands for 20 minutes and then take care of it.

00:14:19 ◼   ► I remember the first people I saw wearing a mask here.

00:14:22 ◼   ► I forget exactly where it was, you know,

00:14:26 ◼   ► late March or early April. I forget in that timeframe, but I was out.

00:14:30 ◼   ► I remember exactly where I was, uh, around the corner.

00:14:34 ◼   ► I don't remember which errand I was running, probably going to Trader Joe's,

00:14:37 ◼   ► but, um,

00:14:38 ◼   ► I saw two people walking and they

00:14:44 ◼   ► were both young, younger than me. Anybody younger than me is now young.

00:14:48 ◼   ► Uh, they were both young,

00:14:51 ◼   ► they were both Asian and they both had masks on. And

00:14:56 ◼   ► I, I just, I guess I've seen it before, you know, and, you know, again,

00:15:02 ◼   ► it's, it, everybody knows it's common in a lot of Asian countries. Um,

00:15:07 ◼   ► I've seen it in Philadelphia before,

00:15:10 ◼   ► but this was definitely in the context of COVID-19 and I thought,

00:15:15 ◼   ► do they think they have it? Did I just walk by two people who,

00:15:18 ◼   ► who think they have it or they, you know, what is, you know, and I wasn't,

00:15:23 ◼   ► you know, like running away from them or anything. It just,

00:15:25 ◼   ► but it was very striking to me, right? It just was like, what, what was that?

00:15:30 ◼   ► That was very strange. I just haven't seen people wearing masks.

00:15:33 ◼   ► And like you said at the time here in the U S every, the experts were all saying,

00:15:38 ◼   ► you know, ah, you don't need a mask. In fact,

00:15:40 ◼   ► you shouldn't be buying masks. Let them, you know,

00:15:42 ◼   ► keep them for the healthcare workers.

00:15:43 ◼   ► Right. Which, which seems like it was, it was, it caused a huge,

00:15:48 ◼   ► huge setback and even, you know,

00:15:50 ◼   ► probably feeling the residuals in the culture war right now.

00:15:54 ◼   ► I wonder if they had just come out at the beginning and said,

00:15:56 ◼   ► masks are the thing that will, you know, do the most to protect you from this,

00:16:01 ◼   ► whether we'd still be seeing all the pushback.

00:16:04 ◼   ► Yeah, I think I, I don't know.

00:16:06 ◼   ► You had a tweet a while a couple of weeks ago, a week or two ago,

00:16:09 ◼   ► where you were talking about masks and, and again,

00:16:12 ◼   ► good empathetic person that you are, you were observing that look it,

00:16:16 ◼   ► when you first see it and you're not used to it,

00:16:18 ◼   ► it is weird to see people with their faces covered and we're, we're,

00:16:22 ◼   ► it's not even a cultural thing.

00:16:25 ◼   ► It's clearly an evolutionary thing that we've evolved to see

00:16:29 ◼   ► people's faces and read their faces.

00:16:32 ◼   ► And we are finally attuned.

00:16:35 ◼   ► Our brains are finally attuned to noticing incredibly small differences

00:16:40 ◼   ► in people's faces to detect their emotion and to identify the

00:16:45 ◼   ► people we know, and especially the people we love.

00:16:48 ◼   ► Um, and so not seeing people's faces is striking and

00:16:53 ◼   ► weird in both the sociological way and just

00:16:57 ◼   ► evolutionary way.

00:16:59 ◼   ► And it is from the first person perspective,

00:17:03 ◼   ► it is weird to put one on and go out in public.

00:17:06 ◼   ► Uh, it's just a very strange physical sensation and it is

00:17:11 ◼   ► very, it makes you self-conscious.

00:17:13 ◼   ► Yeah, it makes you self-conscious. That's right.

00:17:16 ◼   ► It's it's like putting on a hat that you're not sure is like,

00:17:19 ◼   ► you're the right fit or the right shape for you, but it makes you, you know,

00:17:23 ◼   ► you're sort of testing it out, um, as a style choice, but you're worried,

00:17:27 ◼   ► you know, you maybe this, maybe people think I look dumb and that,

00:17:31 ◼   ► that's just kind of like a normal thought process that all of us kind of go for,

00:17:35 ◼   ► go through, but you sort of weigh that against the benefits of wearing one

00:17:39 ◼   ► and the safety, and you sort of have to discard all that in it.

00:17:44 ◼   ► And it feels like there might be some element in the decision-making of

00:17:49 ◼   ► whether or not to wear, you know, whether wear one or not, um, that,

00:17:53 ◼   ► where people's sort of self-imposed shame about their,

00:17:57 ◼   ► this choice or their, the look might say more to them than,

00:18:02 ◼   ► you know, the,

00:18:03 ◼   ► the very simple calculation of whether it's going to be safe,

00:18:08 ◼   ► safer for them and for other people.

00:18:10 ◼   ► Uh, yeah, I think that that's very true and it's, you know,

00:18:15 ◼   ► so for me, I am not a, uh,

00:18:20 ◼   ► dressed up in a costume person. Yeah. I don't, I,

00:18:25 ◼   ► it's been a very long time since I've like, I don't dress up for Halloween.

00:18:29 ◼   ► I didn't dress up for Halloween when my son was young. Um,

00:18:32 ◼   ► but I pass no judgment when I was younger. I would have, I was a jerk.

00:18:36 ◼   ► I'll admit it. Uh, but I pass no judgment and, and I,

00:18:41 ◼   ► I in the course of becoming older and far more open-minded in

00:18:46 ◼   ► many, many ways,

00:18:47 ◼   ► but almost entirely reducible in all regards

00:18:53 ◼   ► to the concept of, Hey man, whatever floats your boat, right?

00:18:57 ◼   ► It's all cool with me. Um, you know,

00:19:00 ◼   ► like people who like to go to comic con and, and dress up as a superheroes.

00:19:05 ◼   ► Did you see the thing, by the way, where John Lewis went comic con?

00:19:09 ◼   ► I didn't know this until he died a couple of days ago.

00:19:11 ◼   ► John Lewis went to comic con a couple of years ago cause he had,

00:19:14 ◼   ► he had co-authored or he wrote, he wrote a graphic novel,

00:19:18 ◼   ► um, wrote the script for a graphic novel depicting, you know,

00:19:22 ◼   ► some of his actions in the, back in the sixties and the civil rights era.

00:19:26 ◼   ► And then he went to comic con to promote it and dressed as his self,

00:19:30 ◼   ► his younger self from like 1961,

00:19:32 ◼   ► which is like the baddest thing I've ever heard in my life. But anyway,

00:19:38 ◼   ► not really a costume where I feel self-conscious about things like that.

00:19:42 ◼   ► So let's just say for example,

00:19:43 ◼   ► somebody who's having a retirement party or something like that,

00:19:47 ◼   ► and it's a surprise party and you get there and you know,

00:19:50 ◼   ► an hour before because you know, it's a surprise and the host says, Hey,

00:19:54 ◼   ► everybody's going to wear this hat. And it's like, you know, like a,

00:19:57 ◼   ► like a novelty hat and we want everybody to wear one. Well,

00:20:00 ◼   ► I would put it on because I don't want to be, you know what I mean?

00:20:03 ◼   ► I'm going to go with the flow, but I would think like,

00:20:05 ◼   ► do I look like in the back of my head would be the idea of,

00:20:08 ◼   ► do I look like a jerk with this hat on? And I would think I probably do.

00:20:12 ◼   ► Cause I look around and sort of think that maybe everybody else looks a little

00:20:16 ◼   ► bit like a jerk with their hats on.

00:20:18 ◼   ► And it would make me feel self-conscious and then I would get, you know,

00:20:22 ◼   ► I'd get over it. Uh, uh, I think it's, it's, it's certainly,

00:20:26 ◼   ► the mask thing is certainly exacerbated because again,

00:20:30 ◼   ► your face is you, right? This is how we, you know,

00:20:34 ◼   ► we identify each other. It is, it is our personality. It's,

00:20:38 ◼   ► it's how everybody with vision, you know,

00:20:42 ◼   ► can identify people covering up your face is, you know,

00:20:47 ◼   ► it's a lot different than putting on a novelty hat and it is a constant

00:20:51 ◼   ► reminder. This is not a retirement surprise party.

00:20:54 ◼   ► This is a pandemic that is making people terribly ill,

00:20:59 ◼   ► filling hospital ICUs and killing a hundred, you know,

00:21:03 ◼   ► hundreds of thousands of people around the world.

00:21:05 ◼   ► So you got to do it. Yeah. So, but it's like a weird thing to be reminded of,

00:21:10 ◼   ► right? And so you get all the self-consciousness of a novelty mask with

00:21:15 ◼   ► combined with the stress and anxiety of the,

00:21:19 ◼   ► it's just, could not be a more prominent reminder that we're in a pandemic.

00:21:24 ◼   ► Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it,

00:21:27 ◼   ► it doesn't feel awesome losing all that real estate on your face with, you know,

00:21:31 ◼   ► that you use to express yourself and then interpret other people's expression.

00:21:36 ◼   ► It's like very, sorry for the ham-fisted, uh, analogy, but it's you,

00:21:40 ◼   ► your face is UI, right? Right. Um,

00:21:43 ◼   ► so it's kinda like, you know,

00:21:45 ◼   ► designing something with only two thirds of the available,

00:21:49 ◼   ► you know, screen real estate. You're just conveying far less information.

00:21:55 ◼   ► I just, last week I shot of, um,

00:21:58 ◼   ► like one of my commercial video things.

00:22:02 ◼   ► And the product was specifically for, um,

00:22:07 ◼   ► restaurants to be able to do contactless menus and contactless

00:22:11 ◼   ► payments really fluidly. Um, and, but,

00:22:15 ◼   ► but because the setting and the context of the story is in an open air

00:22:18 ◼   ► restaurant where it's very, um, important to be wearing,

00:22:23 ◼   ► you know, masks, then all of our talent, including myself, I was in this one,

00:22:27 ◼   ► had our masks on for, for most of it. And, uh, as a director,

00:22:31 ◼   ► when you don't have the full face available to you to convey all of the,

00:22:35 ◼   ► all of the information that you need an actor to convey,

00:22:39 ◼   ► it's really a different thing. It's really hard. You have to do,

00:22:41 ◼   ► so much more with the eyes, obviously, um, so much more with the lens, you know,

00:22:46 ◼   ► just get in there. Um, and, uh, but I mean,

00:22:49 ◼   ► unfortunately it's something that we're,

00:22:51 ◼   ► we're all getting more accustomed to or sort of like learning to draw more

00:22:54 ◼   ► information out from that limited real estate.

00:22:57 ◼   ► Yeah. It's sort of like the opposite of directing a Batman movie, right?

00:23:00 ◼   ► Cause Batman,

00:23:01 ◼   ► Batman's cowl leaves open exactly the surface area

00:23:06 ◼   ► that we need to cover. Yeah, that's right. That's right.

00:23:10 ◼   ► That's what the assholes who don't wear masks should be wearing.

00:23:13 ◼   ► They should just put it in. I like a fake, you know,

00:23:15 ◼   ► an upper face mask on just like lean all the way into it. I'll bet, man,

00:23:20 ◼   ► America freedom.

00:23:22 ◼   ► We could get into that. Um, but why don't before we do, uh,

00:23:33 ◼   ► why don't I move on and, uh,

00:23:36 ◼   ► keep the business flowing and thank our next sponsor. It's our good old friends.

00:23:40 ◼   ► It's Squarespace. Hey, you've got time on your hands.

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00:23:50 ◼   ► that's when people dig into like long forgotten projects, uh,

00:23:54 ◼   ► uh, resolutions. We call them, you know,

00:23:57 ◼   ► resolutions are things you decide to do in early January and then never do. Uh,

00:24:02 ◼   ► maybe dig out that list. Now that we're home for the summer,

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00:24:30 ◼   ► site as the owner of the Squarespace website is literally exactly what visitors

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00:24:45 ◼   ► which is a term that for some reason we don't talk about anymore,

00:24:48 ◼   ► but it really is everything you can do at Squarespace and they have a free

00:24:53 ◼   ► trial so you can just dig in. You get like 30 days,

00:24:58 ◼   ► do what you want. It's real. It's all real. Everybody can visit.

00:25:02 ◼   ► You can see that you like it and you don't have to pay a dime.

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00:25:49 ◼   ► squarespace.com/talk show. Hey,

00:25:53 ◼   ► speaking of websites, how about the Twitter? Twitter got hacked.

00:25:57 ◼   ► Yeah, that was silly.

00:25:58 ◼   ► It was, I do you, you didn't got, you didn't get locked out. Did you not,

00:26:07 ◼   ► it didn't affect you in any way. No. Well,

00:26:09 ◼   ► I was unable to tweet during the, oh, right. Yeah, they, they, yeah,

00:26:14 ◼   ► that's right. For verified. It's they, they, they locked you out of tweeting,

00:26:18 ◼   ► but that, that lasted what? A few hours. Yeah. Something like that.

00:26:21 ◼   ► But I did not get locked out. You got locked out, right?

00:26:25 ◼   ► I did because I was one of the dumb dumbs who like changed my password right

00:26:29 ◼   ► after it was, I, I,

00:26:31 ◼   ► I took the extra security precaution of changing my password on both of my

00:26:35 ◼   ► accounts, both my, my personal and my, my business account. And, uh,

00:26:40 ◼   ► you know, surprise, surprise. They, I, the next two days I was locked out.

00:26:45 ◼   ► I think Todd Vizzier experienced the same.

00:26:47 ◼   ► I don't even know if he's back in business. Yeah, he was. Yeah.

00:26:49 ◼   ► He was out of business for a couple of days. Todd Vizzier, he'll listen to this.

00:26:52 ◼   ► He'll hear this and get a, get a kick out of that.

00:26:55 ◼   ► But he won't be able to tweet about it.

00:26:56 ◼   ► Sorry, Todd. Yeah. So not a bad idea, right?

00:27:04 ◼   ► Like you think like, holy hell, Twitter is the whole thing is, you know,

00:27:08 ◼   ► uh, you know, there's,

00:27:10 ◼   ► there's an unknown number of hackers running around doing crazy stuff with

00:27:14 ◼   ► Twitter accounts. Why don't I go in and change my password? You know,

00:27:17 ◼   ► just seems like the least you can do, right. Just do something, right.

00:27:22 ◼   ► I get, if I was a locksmith and something crazy like this was going on,

00:27:26 ◼   ► maybe I would change the locks on my door, right? I mean, you can do it.

00:27:29 ◼   ► If you could change your locks on your door,

00:27:31 ◼   ► as easy as you can change your password on Twitter, I would do it. Right.

00:27:35 ◼   ► But it turns out then that after this was over, they were like, any,

00:27:39 ◼   ► we don't even know what the hell happened Twitter wide.

00:27:43 ◼   ► So let's just flag every account whose password has been changed and

00:27:48 ◼   ► lock it down. Right. So, uh,

00:27:52 ◼   ► I mean, I get it. It was, it's probably, yeah, if you're a hacker and you, um,

00:27:56 ◼   ► you would change people's passwords, I guess on their behalf.

00:27:59 ◼   ► And then I guess it seems like a smart thing to do.

00:28:02 ◼   ► It just totally counterintuitive that if I had done nothing to secure

00:28:06 ◼   ► myself, then I would have been, uh, I would have been back, you know,

00:28:10 ◼   ► back using the app again. Um, but you know, people were wondering what was,

00:28:14 ◼   ► what, what, what would the,

00:28:16 ◼   ► the motivation be if it weren't purely to steal, what was it?

00:28:20 ◼   ► 180,000 something like $180,000 with a Bitcoin,

00:28:24 ◼   ► which was not that big of a take. Yeah. Uh,

00:28:27 ◼   ► end of the day for something like for the,

00:28:29 ◼   ► the biggest hack that Twitter has ever experienced, um,

00:28:33 ◼   ► taking what was taking complete control. Right. One of the, you know,

00:28:37 ◼   ► second only to Facebook,

00:28:39 ◼   ► maybe social network on the planet with perhaps greater

00:28:44 ◼   ► media influence than Facebook. Right. Like,

00:28:47 ◼   ► so Facebook as a company is worth way more than Twitter as a company,

00:28:51 ◼   ► but like Twitter's the one that we're always worried about, you know,

00:28:54 ◼   ► who tweeting something dumb that starts a war. Right. Right. Cause it doesn't,

00:28:59 ◼   ► it's not the walled garden that Facebook is,

00:29:01 ◼   ► is that way more of a sort of an amplification machine or a broadcast.

00:29:05 ◼   ► And it is sort of fundamentally simpler, right?

00:29:08 ◼   ► This is the sort of thing I know that you get, like at its core,

00:29:12 ◼   ► it's really hard to explain what Facebook is. I honestly still don't understand it.

00:29:16 ◼   ► I don't really quite understand what the hell it is. Like,

00:29:20 ◼   ► Twitter is actually kind of easy to understand. You sign up, you get a name,

00:29:25 ◼   ► and you know, by convention, we just put an ad sign in front of it.

00:29:29 ◼   ► And then you can tweet,

00:29:31 ◼   ► which is that you get to write up to 280 characters and hit send.

00:29:35 ◼   ► And then it goes.

00:29:37 ◼   ► And then anybody who looks at your account can see the things you've sent.

00:29:40 ◼   ► That's it. That's the whole thing really.

00:29:43 ◼   ► And then everything else is just sort of butter on that in terms of like,

00:29:47 ◼   ► you know, you can, you know,

00:29:49 ◼   ► reply to somebody by putting their name in it and threads it somehow.

00:29:53 ◼   ► But it's all just tweets. The replies are tweets. Everything's tweets.

00:29:58 ◼   ► It's, it's just tweets all the way down.

00:30:00 ◼   ► And tweets are just little blurbs of text that you just throw out into the ether.

00:30:05 ◼   ► Right. That's it. It's very easy to understand.

00:30:08 ◼   ► And I feel like that is sort of what makes it more powerful in terms of like,

00:30:12 ◼   ► if somebody influential is just going to post a message,

00:30:16 ◼   ► you just post it on Twitter. There it is.

00:30:18 ◼   ► It goes out and everybody can point to it. Anybody who, you know, somebody says,

00:30:23 ◼   ► did you see what Adam, Lisa Gore said?

00:30:25 ◼   ► They just post the link and you don't even have a Twitter account. Maybe you just hit the link.

00:30:29 ◼   ► You can read what, what it's there. You don't have to, you know,

00:30:31 ◼   ► there's no goofy thing that pops up. That's like, Hey,

00:30:34 ◼   ► sign up and tell me where you went to high school to sign into Facebook or whatever.

00:30:38 ◼   ► No, it's just there. And then they can put it, you know, you, you show up on CNN.

00:30:42 ◼   ► They can put at Gruber underneath your name or whatever.

00:30:45 ◼   ► And the people know where your Twitter is.

00:30:47 ◼   ► That simplicity is sort of the core of what makes it so powerful.

00:30:51 ◼   ► These guys took control of it and decided to use it to scam Bitcoins.

00:30:57 ◼   ► Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, if you're a little bit conspiracy minded,

00:31:01 ◼   ► that it was sort of a, people are saying, people are saying, you know, it's, Oh God,

00:31:07 ◼   ► that's what a terrible expression.

00:31:09 ◼   ► It's a ruined, it's been ruined by, you know, who?

00:31:13 ◼   ► Yeah. But like, you know, there, there's, there's speculation out there that,

00:31:17 ◼   ► um, it was a test run for something bigger.

00:31:20 ◼   ► I just realized while we're talking about this,

00:31:22 ◼   ► because I watched the movie Sneakers, um, a couple of days ago,

00:31:26 ◼   ► I do remember the movies meet sneakers. It all starts out with a,

00:31:31 ◼   ► with a robbery, a heist. Um, uh,

00:31:35 ◼   ► I forget the specifics. It's been a couple of days, but, um,

00:31:38 ◼   ► and then you learn, and then you learn that the whole thing was an actual inside

00:31:43 ◼   ► job that he, that they were, that this ragtag, uh, gang of, uh,

00:31:48 ◼   ► of, uh, you know, essentially old school hackers, um,

00:31:54 ◼   ► had been paid for, you know,

00:31:56 ◼   ► paid by the bank to pull off in order to discover, uh,

00:32:00 ◼   ► and patch security flaws.

00:32:01 ◼   ► So what if this was a similar kind of an inside job, you know,

00:32:05 ◼   ► and it wasn't that much of an investment to lose 180 K in Bitcoin.

00:32:10 ◼   ► Um, but now they know, I don't know, I kind of think like I,

00:32:14 ◼   ► it's fun to have to theorize about conspiracies like this. I don't,

00:32:17 ◼   ► I think it's end of the day completely false. And I would never, um,

00:32:22 ◼   ► I would never hang my, you know, any, any reputation on this kind of thing,

00:32:27 ◼   ► but it would be an interesting way to sort of in, in, you know,

00:32:31 ◼   ► get people used to the idea that these platforms are not foolproof or,

00:32:36 ◼   ► you know, they're not airtight,

00:32:37 ◼   ► they can be exploited and we should be a little bit more security minded about

00:32:42 ◼   ► that. Um, you know,

00:32:43 ◼   ► I think it's really important leading up to the selection that we don't

00:32:48 ◼   ► consider this platform as airtight and, you know, solid truth.

00:32:52 ◼   ► And, um,

00:32:53 ◼   ► I think that if this little hack causes people to give it a second

00:32:58 ◼   ► thought in terms of even the discussion of what's true and what's false,

00:33:02 ◼   ► then I think it served its purpose.

00:33:04 ◼   ► So, uh,

00:33:06 ◼   ► Ben Thompson brought this up on,

00:33:10 ◼   ► on our dithering show the other day and Sunday we recorded Sunday night

00:33:15 ◼   ► and then that show came out Monday. That was about yesterday.

00:33:18 ◼   ► I don't know who the hell knows what day it is, but then late Sunday night, uh,

00:33:22 ◼   ► Amy and I watched the John Oliver, the, uh, last,

00:33:26 ◼   ► last week tonight with John Oliver. Do you like the John Oliver?

00:33:29 ◼   ► I do. I don't watch it regularly, but I think he's great.

00:33:32 ◼   ► I think he's great, but he had a bit. It was amazing because I wished,

00:33:36 ◼   ► I kind of, I was like, I don't buy the conspiracy theory thing at all.

00:33:39 ◼   ► And Ben was more like, I don't really buy it, but who knows? Maybe.

00:33:44 ◼   ► And then it was just amazing. It was just like in the way like this sort of,

00:33:48 ◼   ► Hey, am I living in some kind of weird,

00:33:50 ◼   ► slip cystic simulation of the universe? Because I was just talking, I mean,

00:33:54 ◼   ► Ben and I recorded like 10 at night and I was late, of course, 10 Eastern.

00:33:59 ◼   ► Um, it's like 10 AM over in Taipei.

00:34:02 ◼   ► And then the John Oliver show comes on at 11. And so it was just like, you know,

00:34:06 ◼   ► I don't know, literally like 30 minutes after I just talked to Ben about it on

00:34:10 ◼   ► our show, John Oliver had a bit talking about conspiracy theories.

00:34:13 ◼   ► And I'm not going to remember it here,

00:34:16 ◼   ► but the name of this psychological thing off, I swear to God,

00:34:20 ◼   ► I'll find it for the show notes, but it doesn't matter.

00:34:22 ◼   ► But the gist of it is that there's a well-known psychological effect

00:34:25 ◼   ► in the, in regarding conspiracy theories. Um,

00:34:30 ◼   ► that's something that has a great effect.

00:34:35 ◼   ► The human mind assumes there must be an equally great cause for it.

00:34:40 ◼   ► And the example,

00:34:44 ◼   ► which I have never thought of and never heard anybody mention,

00:34:47 ◼   ► or at least don't recall anybody mentioning, but which is like, Whoa,

00:34:51 ◼   ► mind blown was comparing the Kennedy

00:34:55 ◼   ► assassination with Reagan getting shot where

00:34:59 ◼   ► Kennedy gets shot.

00:35:03 ◼   ► And the official story is it was a lone kook gunman.

00:35:08 ◼   ► And the whole world thinks, well, that can't possibly be it.

00:35:13 ◼   ► And is, you know,

00:35:15 ◼   ► quite possibly the conspiracy theory of all conspiracy theories, right?

00:35:19 ◼   ► It's certainly up there in the greatest, if you're going to make a greatest hits

00:35:21 ◼   ► of conspiracy theories, the Kennedy assassination is up there, right? I mean,

00:35:25 ◼   ► I don't see anybody can dispute it. Right.

00:35:28 ◼   ► But what happened with Reagan with John Hinckley Jr.

00:35:31 ◼   ► It was a lone kook gunman who went and shot him.

00:35:36 ◼   ► And it, the difference of course,

00:35:38 ◼   ► is that Kennedy was killed and the effects were therefore profound and Reagan

00:35:43 ◼   ► recovered. And you know, most people,

00:35:48 ◼   ► it's not when you think like Ronald Reagan's presidency,

00:35:51 ◼   ► like him getting shot is like,

00:35:54 ◼   ► not even at the top of the list of things that happened, which is kind of crazy.

00:35:58 ◼   ► Right. And there's zero conspiracy theories, right? There is not one.

00:36:01 ◼   ► Have you ever heard a conspiracy theory about Reagan's shooting? Everybody,

00:36:06 ◼   ► but, but, but, but, but, but, but,

00:36:08 ◼   ► because we got a psychological profile of, of his killer, if it is John David,

00:36:13 ◼   ► no, it's not John Hinckley, John Hinckley, John Hinckley, John Hinckley Jr. Yeah.

00:36:17 ◼   ► Which, which seemed so entirely plausible,

00:36:19 ◼   ► which was that he was a nutso who wanted to impress a movie star.

00:36:24 ◼   ► Right. And that seemed very plausible. Okay. So look at it,

00:36:28 ◼   ► like look at the incels of art of today. It, that makes sense. You know,

00:36:33 ◼   ► you could see somebody doing something really evil for the dumbest of all

00:36:37 ◼   ► reasons. And, uh,

00:36:39 ◼   ► I guess the world needed no further explanation at the time.

00:36:42 ◼   ► Well, and I get it too. And the thing that Oliver didn't mention, and I was like,

00:36:46 ◼   ► well, there is the crazy aspect though, where Hinckley also,

00:36:50 ◼   ► oh, shot him at like point blank range. Like he just,

00:36:54 ◼   ► Reagan was just walking out of like the Hilton after giving a speech. And it just,

00:36:58 ◼   ► they just phrase it. It was like the last time it's ever happened where like,

00:37:02 ◼   ► the president just sort of left the president of the United States,

00:37:04 ◼   ► just left a building, like a normal celebrity with just, you know,

00:37:08 ◼   ► a couple of security export experts around him. But like the,

00:37:12 ◼   ► the crowd on the sidewalk was there to, you know,

00:37:14 ◼   ► shout and say hi to him and everything. Uh, you know,

00:37:18 ◼   ► and Hinckley was just there with a gun in his pocket and shot him. Whereas,

00:37:22 ◼   ► you know,

00:37:22 ◼   ► like the mechanics of the shooting are actually very simple. And if you under,

00:37:27 ◼   ► if you understand how the president and through the 60,

00:37:31 ◼   ► which is crazy after all, you know, Kennedy getting shot, you know, that,

00:37:35 ◼   ► that they still just let the president walk out in the sidewalk,

00:37:38 ◼   ► get into a car himself. Um,

00:37:41 ◼   ► but the mechanics of it weren't crazy, just a guy. And,

00:37:44 ◼   ► and the fact that he wasn't a trained shooter, you know,

00:37:48 ◼   ► and just shot him in the stomach or the chest. Whereas the Hinckley thing,

00:37:51 ◼   ► it does involve, you know, some rather preposterous or rather not preposterous,

00:37:55 ◼   ► but hard to believe marksmanship and number of bullets and you know what I mean?

00:38:00 ◼   ► Totally Harvey Oswald. Yeah. So I don't want to,

00:38:01 ◼   ► I don't want to derail this whole thing into some of the stuff around the

00:38:06 ◼   ► Kennedy assassination, but you know,

00:38:09 ◼   ► yeah, there's other assassinations to talk about, right. But just,

00:38:11 ◼   ► just thinking about the mechanics of the shooting, it, you know,

00:38:16 ◼   ► it required even people who believe that there was, you know, that, that, uh,

00:38:20 ◼   ► Lee Harvey Oswald, what's with these guys with the names that are hard to

00:38:24 ◼   ► remember Lee Harvey Oswald, you know,

00:38:26 ◼   ► even if you believe that he did it all on his own,

00:38:29 ◼   ► you still have to fundamentally believe that he was a tremendous marksman,

00:38:32 ◼   ► you know, who can, you know, so I get it. It's, but the,

00:38:36 ◼   ► the bigger point though I think is true, which is that if Reagan had been killed,

00:38:41 ◼   ► there would have been conspiracy theories about it. Right. And it's,

00:38:47 ◼   ► it's certain, you know, and I think that's sort of at the heart of this Twitter

00:38:51 ◼   ► thing. I just, I think it's exactly where it, it was so prof,

00:38:55 ◼   ► their ownership of Twitter's platform was so profound where they could literally

00:39:00 ◼   ► pick any account, almost any account they wanted to. Like there's just,

00:39:05 ◼   ► nobody even knows which ones are locked.

00:39:06 ◼   ► Everybody knows that Trump's is locked behind a key because,

00:39:10 ◼   ► because a couple of years ago, a contractor,

00:39:13 ◼   ► a contractor who worked at Twitter security team part time,

00:39:18 ◼   ► or as a temporary worker on his last day of work,

00:39:21 ◼   ► deactivated Trump's account.

00:39:23 ◼   ► That was wonderful.

00:39:25 ◼   ► So Trump's is under some kind of special lock and key.

00:39:29 ◼   ► I guess Jack Dorsey's is, I only guess because, you know,

00:39:34 ◼   ► he is the CEO and his account wasn't apparently tweeting,

00:39:39 ◼   ► you know, the Bitcoin scam, maybe not. I don't know who else is there.

00:39:43 ◼   ► I, it seems crazy that,

00:39:44 ◼   ► that Trump's would be under this and Joe Biden's wouldn't at this point.

00:39:48 ◼   ► I mean, I'll bet it is right now. I bet as you and I record that, uh,

00:39:52 ◼   ► they were like, Hey, we better, you know,

00:39:54 ◼   ► better put Biden's account under the same thing as Trump's. Um, yeah.

00:39:59 ◼   ► But I, I, how about make everybody's that safe? How, you know,

00:40:03 ◼   ► I think that's the main point here is, Hey jerks,

00:40:06 ◼   ► we're all spending all this time on your platform. Like, you know, a big,

00:40:10 ◼   ► a large portion of society is using this platform to express and learn

00:40:15 ◼   ► information. How about keep us safe? How about don't make this happen?

00:40:20 ◼   ► Well, I think the craziest thing is that you could have,

00:40:24 ◼   ► everybody says over and over again with everything do two factor, two factor,

00:40:28 ◼   ► two factor. I mean, and I've done it. I have gone through,

00:40:32 ◼   ► I'm not going to say every single account I have that I could have two factor on.

00:40:36 ◼   ► I have it on, but every one that I think is important, I do.

00:40:40 ◼   ► Right. Like I've got it on my bank, I've got it on my credit cards.

00:40:46 ◼   ► Um, you know, my Twitter accounts have it. Uh,

00:40:51 ◼   ► my Gmail account has it any, you know, so email,

00:40:55 ◼   ► Twitter, banking, credit cards, and I mean, pretty much anything serious.

00:41:01 ◼   ► I mean, you know, like my account@jcrew.com does not have two factor

00:41:05 ◼   ► authentication.

00:41:06 ◼   ► I am going to order you so many chinos, not going to be flattering to you.

00:41:13 ◼   ► Somebody breaks into my account there and they're going to find the least

00:41:18 ◼   ► surprising order history that they've ever seen. It's a bunch of,

00:41:22 ◼   ► you know, flashy Navy blue polos

00:41:25 ◼   ► and a bunch of gray shorts.

00:41:30 ◼   ► Uh, but if you had two factor on your Twitter account and everybody was like,

00:41:35 ◼   ► well, what's the,

00:41:38 ◼   ► and when this first thing went wild and all these, you know,

00:41:41 ◼   ► this great obvious scams are coming out of these accounts, everybody's like,

00:41:45 ◼   ► Oh my God, that is nuts.

00:41:46 ◼   ► That so-and-so didn't have two factor on their account because everybody just

00:41:50 ◼   ► assumed two factor would protect you. Right. Um,

00:41:54 ◼   ► turns out that the same interface that let them like just change the email

00:41:58 ◼   ► associated with an account. Also let them just,

00:42:00 ◼   ► just like click a checkbox to turn off two factor,

00:42:04 ◼   ► which is sort of like,

00:42:06 ◼   ► you would think they should lock that down.

00:42:12 ◼   ► And it was all social engineering, right. To hack in the first place.

00:42:16 ◼   ► It's like having a vault where, you know, like with a big thick,

00:42:21 ◼   ► you know, caper movie,

00:42:25 ◼   ► three foot thick door for the vault door and a crazy,

00:42:29 ◼   ► you know, combination lock,

00:42:31 ◼   ► but it's just a panel and you could just walk around the side.

00:42:35 ◼   ► It's just like one face out of the four. It's not actually a box. It's like,

00:42:41 ◼   ► yeah, the door, you know, the, the vault door is super secure,

00:42:44 ◼   ► but you could just walk around the side and just turn it off.

00:42:46 ◼   ► There's a guy, there's a security guard, but you just kind of,

00:42:50 ◼   ► you throw a piece of meat around the corner and he goes and chases it.

00:42:56 ◼   ► Well, the other thing that was so wild about, so everybody, I, again,

00:42:59 ◼   ► I think that this fundamental theory,

00:43:00 ◼   ► the reason people are thinking there must be a greater conspiracy is it was so

00:43:04 ◼   ► bizarre.

00:43:07 ◼   ► And it really seems like the Bitcoin part was secondary and it was something

00:43:11 ◼   ► that one of the hackers involved, I don't know if he had it in mind all along,

00:43:16 ◼   ► but like the things that they did first before the Bitcoin thing,

00:43:20 ◼   ► we're just trying to steal what they call OG Twitter handles.

00:43:24 ◼   ► Which I was unaware. I realized that they are few and far between.

00:43:29 ◼   ► These are the one character names like at six,

00:43:36 ◼   ► like just add the character six. Uh, you know,

00:43:40 ◼   ► obviously there's only like 40 or so,

00:43:44 ◼   ► I don't know how many, maybe only 37, one character, Twitter names,

00:43:50 ◼   ► the 26 letters of the alphabet, the 10 digits. And then our friend,

00:43:54 ◼   ► Dave, Dave Rutledge, who runs, uh, created,

00:43:57 ◼   ► co-created meh.com as at underscore.

00:44:02 ◼   ► Oh, wow. Yeah. That's a, that's been a mess for him. Yeah.

00:44:06 ◼   ► You think like that's clever. His, his Twitter handle is underscore,

00:44:09 ◼   ► just one underscore. Uh,

00:44:11 ◼   ► and I believe his wife is two underscores and he secured three underscores for

00:44:17 ◼   ► one of their kids, I believe. Yeah. But guess,

00:44:21 ◼   ► guess whose account gets hacked all the time. Oh man, that sucks. Yeah.

00:44:26 ◼   ► And so this was that, so that was the big heist, huh?

00:44:29 ◼   ► Just getting single character accounts.

00:44:31 ◼   ► And then once they realized they had something, then they did,

00:44:34 ◼   ► this was their version of the checkout. My sound cloud,

00:44:37 ◼   ► when you have a tweet go viral. Yeah. Interesting and terrible.

00:44:41 ◼   ► And it's very stupid. Yeah. Well, and I think that that's ultimately,

00:44:45 ◼   ► I think that one of the things that's forgotten in Twitter hacking history,

00:44:50 ◼   ► everybody remembers the saga of, again, friend of the show. I don't know.

00:44:53 ◼   ► Yeah. I don't think he's ever been on, but Matt Honan, who's, uh, you know,

00:44:57 ◼   ► a big wig over at Buzzfeed news now. Um, but who,

00:45:01 ◼   ► uh, quite unusually in my opinion, spells his name M A T.

00:45:06 ◼   ► He doesn't have the second T, um, uh,

00:45:12 ◼   ► you know, which is a lot less common than say being a John without the

00:45:16 ◼   ► H, um,

00:45:18 ◼   ► but not quite as uncommon as being an Adam without like the second day.

00:45:23 ◼   ► Yeah. That'd be weird. Although it's, you know,

00:45:27 ◼   ► do you well in it for a career in the Navy. Yeah.

00:45:30 ◼   ► But anyway, Matt Honan years ago, I mean,

00:45:37 ◼   ► this might be 10 years ago at this point got hacked, uh, his and,

00:45:41 ◼   ► and badly like this, everything you remember,

00:45:44 ◼   ► as Apple. Cause they, and they only took his Apple ID,

00:45:48 ◼   ► I think to get his Twitter, but, uh, he wrote about it eventually,

00:45:52 ◼   ► but it really was devastating at a personal level cause they took his Apple ID

00:45:56 ◼   ► and he had everything else like his banking and everything was all through his

00:46:01 ◼   ► Apple ID, but he lost his Apple ID to these hackers. Um,

00:46:05 ◼   ► and it seemed like Twitter's initial reaction was to assume that Honan got

00:46:10 ◼   ► hacked because he was in the media. And that's when I got verified. Uh, I did,

00:46:14 ◼   ► I never asked for the ad Gruber account to get the blue check Mark.

00:46:18 ◼   ► They just gave,

00:46:18 ◼   ► I just logged in one day and I had it because they were going through,

00:46:22 ◼   ► they had some assembled some sort of list of people like Matt

00:46:27 ◼   ► Honan. And you know, for obvious reasons,

00:46:30 ◼   ► I am vaguely like him in terms of the number of people following me and that I

00:46:36 ◼   ► write stuff that people read. But I think it's clear in hindsight,

00:46:40 ◼   ► that the reason Honan got hacked wasn't because he was in the media,

00:46:43 ◼   ► but because his username was M a T it was one of these O G

00:46:48 ◼   ► Twitter accounts.

00:46:49 ◼   ► I can only, I had no idea that there was so much value in these short handles.

00:46:54 ◼   ► Right. Well, and, but the value cannot be seen as permanent because surely,

00:46:58 ◼   ► you know, it, it, it, it, no matter what, how,

00:47:02 ◼   ► how quietly they had tried to play this, if they had really just tried to steal,

00:47:07 ◼   ► and they were selling these things according to New York, New York times,

00:47:10 ◼   ► you know, there was like 1500 bucks or 2,500 bucks would get you like a two

00:47:13 ◼   ► character username.

00:47:15 ◼   ► Surely they didn't expect it to be permanent, I guess, unless it's like a,

00:47:20 ◼   ► maybe if it's a Twitter account that was abandoned and that nobody used

00:47:25 ◼   ► and, uh, you know, but if it's somebody was using it, surely Twitter, you know,

00:47:30 ◼   ► this was going to come to their attention and they would see, Oh,

00:47:33 ◼   ► this person says their Twitter account was stolen on this day.

00:47:37 ◼   ► And that was the day we got hacked and there, yes,

00:47:40 ◼   ► that's when the email address and everything was changed.

00:47:42 ◼   ► So we'll just give it back to this person.

00:47:44 ◼   ► Surely they didn't expect it to be permanent. You know,

00:47:48 ◼   ► I think it's just like a typical prank where you, you know,

00:47:51 ◼   ► think you're going to get away with it for an hour and, uh,

00:47:55 ◼   ► just all very bizarre.

00:47:57 ◼   ► And I just think people have a hard time grasping that like 20 year old computer

00:48:02 ◼   ► hackers would do it,

00:48:04 ◼   ► would have this power in their hands and use it to steal the LOL account.

00:48:08 ◼   ► Yeah. Yeah. It was real dumb, but I think again,

00:48:13 ◼   ► silver lining is now we're all just a little bit more aware of the,

00:48:17 ◼   ► of the security flaw. Yeah. Um,

00:48:21 ◼   ► yeah, I don't know. I do wonder what Twitter is going to do.

00:48:25 ◼   ► It's pretty embarrassing for them, especially, you know, and people do,

00:48:28 ◼   ► and I know we're, we're joking about it. Um, but you know,

00:48:31 ◼   ► that's the thing that people get is, you know, what if they had, you know,

00:48:35 ◼   ► tweeted from somebody's account that, you know, like, you know,

00:48:39 ◼   ► at Joe Biden's I'm dropping out of the race or something like that,

00:48:42 ◼   ► you know, or stock manipulation. Right. I mean, people go, you know,

00:48:47 ◼   ► money, yeah. The Tesla being shorted or, or, um,

00:48:52 ◼   ► or other right. And, you know, and Tesla in particular comes to mind because

00:48:57 ◼   ► their stock is, uh, you know,

00:49:01 ◼   ► on a rocket and it is,

00:49:02 ◼   ► so it is volatile and we know for a fact that Elon Musk

00:49:07 ◼   ► tweets goofy things like, yeah,

00:49:10 ◼   ► gets high and tweets that he's taking the couple at the company private at

00:49:16 ◼   ► $420 a share. He did that like,

00:49:20 ◼   ► that wasn't a hack. So, you know,

00:49:23 ◼   ► something just every bit as similar as that would have, you know,

00:49:28 ◼   ► it certainly seemed to be believable. I think, uh,

00:49:31 ◼   ► I think Matt Levine who writes the great money stuff newsletter for Bloomberg,

00:49:36 ◼   ► you know, his idea was have, have, you know,

00:49:39 ◼   ► if you wanted to really try to make some money, um,

00:49:42 ◼   ► it's either short the stock or long the stock. If you wanted to long it and,

00:49:48 ◼   ► and assume it was going to go up, uh, have, uh,

00:49:52 ◼   ► the just hack two accounts, Elon Musk and say, Hey, this time for real,

00:49:57 ◼   ► I'm taking the company public at blank,

00:49:59 ◼   ► put the target number in with the help of, um,

00:50:03 ◼   ► Warren buffet and then just take the buffet account and say,

00:50:07 ◼   ► I'm happy to help Elon Musk take the great company Tesla private would, you know,

00:50:11 ◼   ► we've heard all the financing, boom, the stock jumps up,

00:50:15 ◼   ► you cash out and you know,

00:50:18 ◼   ► and maybe the sec finds you,

00:50:21 ◼   ► but there's so many people who are on a daily basis shorting and long. I mean,

00:50:25 ◼   ► it's like become like a coronavirus quarantine hobby is day

00:50:30 ◼   ► trading stocks. Uh, you know,

00:50:34 ◼   ► you know, if you did it for enough money that it might be worth it to you,

00:50:37 ◼   ► but not so much that it really sticks out among the zillions of trades, people,

00:50:42 ◼   ► crazy trades people do with Tesla every day, you could have gotten away with it,

00:50:46 ◼   ► but instead they just took, took goofy usernames.

00:50:51 ◼   ► So dumb.

00:50:53 ◼   ► Uh, well let's, uh, uh, let's talk about, uh,

00:50:59 ◼   ► my show before I forget. So you helped. Yeah. So I wrote,

00:51:04 ◼   ► yeah, you're remote show. Yeah. Um, and I just want to,

00:51:08 ◼   ► I want to thank you really. I want to thank you personally. Um,

00:51:12 ◼   ► no, absolutely. No sweat. Cause I here's, here's here. I mean, I mean,

00:51:16 ◼   ► I mean relay how this came to be as I best I recollected,

00:51:20 ◼   ► I started talking with Apple, you know, I dunno, six weeks before WWDC,

00:51:25 ◼   ► maybe a little bit before that, you know, just sort of, Hey,

00:51:28 ◼   ► like, I think maybe around the time when they first announced that WWDC was going

00:51:34 ◼   ► to be virtual, I had some preliminary talk with, well, look, this, you know,

00:51:38 ◼   ► we're obviously not, you, I don't, you know,

00:51:40 ◼   ► you're obviously not going to do a show traditionally.

00:51:42 ◼   ► We still will probably be interested in doing something with you if you would

00:51:47 ◼   ► like to, you know, but it would have to be remote. And I said, yeah,

00:51:50 ◼   ► I would like to, I, you know, it's too good of a tradition to, to let fall.

00:51:54 ◼   ► Let's figure it out when we get closer, get closer. And you know,

00:51:59 ◼   ► it's like, okay, here's what we were thinking, you know, um, what if we did,

00:52:04 ◼   ► what if, what if Jaws and Craig come on the show again?

00:52:08 ◼   ► And even in normal years, it's,

00:52:12 ◼   ► it, it is them suggesting,

00:52:16 ◼   ► here's who maybe would be a good idea for the show. And, you know,

00:52:21 ◼   ► Federighi doesn't really spill anything.

00:52:23 ◼   ► Everybody knows Federighi is going to be involved.

00:52:25 ◼   ► But like a couple of years ago when Mike Rockwell,

00:52:27 ◼   ► who's in charge of all the machine learning stuff at Apple,

00:52:32 ◼   ► um, when they were like, we're thinking about Mike Rockwell, he's, you know,

00:52:36 ◼   ► in charge of this, it was sort of a, uh, you know,

00:52:41 ◼   ► there's sort of like a handshake deal,

00:52:43 ◼   ► preliminary to the show that I'm not going to go blab and say, Mike, you know,

00:52:48 ◼   ► part of the thing is that I'm going to keep the guest secret.

00:52:51 ◼   ► Part of it is that it's a lot of fun to come out on stage and nobody in the

00:52:55 ◼   ► audience even knows who's coming out.

00:52:57 ◼   ► And part of it is like, if it's Mike Rockwell,

00:53:01 ◼   ► and I announced it in advance,

00:53:03 ◼   ► it would sort of suggest that maybe the WWDC keynote is going to have a lot of

00:53:08 ◼   ► machine learning AI.

00:53:11 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:53:12 ◼   ► There's some corporate secret stuff that they can't, they don't want,

00:53:15 ◼   ► that's going to indicate you don't want to divulge.

00:53:17 ◼   ► Right. Uh, yeah. But you know, and it was like, you know, and what do,

00:53:22 ◼   ► what are we going to do? And the basic conversation I had with,

00:53:26 ◼   ► with Bill Evans at Apple PR was, uh,

00:53:32 ◼   ► that I'm, I watch a lot of these late night shows. I watched the Colbert,

00:53:37 ◼   ► we watched the Seth Meyers late night show. Uh,

00:53:40 ◼   ► I peek in at the Jimmy Kimmel sometimes. I like, you know, I, I'm a, you know,

00:53:43 ◼   ► that's why this show is called the talk show. I like talk shows.

00:53:45 ◼   ► I find the production value of the shows during quarantine to be,

00:53:51 ◼   ► uh, overall to be, uh, unbelievably poor. I can't believe it.

00:53:59 ◼   ► I could believe it like the end of March when it was new and it was like,

00:54:04 ◼   ► nobody saw this coming.

00:54:05 ◼   ► Yeah. It's like, oh shit, we got to get something up and running like now,

00:54:08 ◼   ► six hours till, till showtime. But yeah, they could easily,

00:54:12 ◼   ► in this amount of time, they could have easily built a little studio for each of

00:54:17 ◼   ► the, uh, you know, a little home studio for each of the,

00:54:19 ◼   ► Right. And where it particularly falls flat is the interviews when they have

00:54:26 ◼   ► guests on and they just look, I mean,

00:54:29 ◼   ► and not even talking about the editing,

00:54:31 ◼   ► but just the compression artifacts that you're actually just looking at the

00:54:36 ◼   ► compression artifacts of a zoom call over mediocre bandwidth and a terrible,

00:54:42 ◼   ► sometimes a terrible like Mac book webcam. Um,

00:54:49 ◼   ► I just can't believe that they don't have, and this,

00:54:53 ◼   ► we can talk about this with you, but you know,

00:54:55 ◼   ► the way that it would be more self-contained, but like the way that,

00:54:59 ◼   ► that you guys at sandwich have put together a kit that you can send around to

00:55:03 ◼   ► shoot stuff remotely. Like why don't they have an interview kit?

00:55:06 ◼   ► And they can just send it in a box with some instructions.

00:55:09 ◼   ► And then as the weeks go on, they can, you know,

00:55:12 ◼   ► here's where people got hung up. Oh,

00:55:14 ◼   ► people got confused about this and this and then you get it down and then

00:55:18 ◼   ► everybody could have like a nice light or two and a nice camera and a good

00:55:24 ◼   ► microphone.

00:55:24 ◼   ► And maybe we wouldn't record the actual compressed stuff going over the

00:55:29 ◼   ► internet. Just basically, I find it very hard to watch. I really do.

00:55:33 ◼   ► I don't watch the interviews anymore because I really,

00:55:36 ◼   ► I can't, it's, I just, it's too hard.

00:55:41 ◼   ► It feels like I'm like reading, reading subtitles.

00:55:45 ◼   ► It's a quandary for them, for these shows, because if they, if,

00:55:49 ◼   ► let's say they do figure out a really good mobile production kit and then some

00:55:54 ◼   ► of like, then the interviews,

00:55:56 ◼   ► the other side of the interview starts looking and sounding better or even like

00:56:01 ◼   ► looking and sounding great,

00:56:02 ◼   ► then they're kind of stuck at that level of that, that,

00:56:06 ◼   ► that production quality standard.

00:56:08 ◼   ► And then anything that falls short of that is going to really stick out and look

00:56:12 ◼   ► terrible by comparison. So they, they're almost,

00:56:15 ◼   ► I feel like they're doing themselves a favor acknowledging that, that, Hey,

00:56:19 ◼   ► it's a free for all. We're going to get what we're going to get limited,

00:56:23 ◼   ► not only by the capture gear,

00:56:25 ◼   ► but the actual bandwidth that people have available to them.

00:56:28 ◼   ► And the physical, we're just having to, what's that?

00:56:33 ◼   ► Well, the physical space that people are quarantining in, right?

00:56:35 ◼   ► Not everybody has the luxury of having a space available with say,

00:56:40 ◼   ► like I did nice natural light or space at all. Right. I mean,

00:56:45 ◼   ► there's people who live in small apartments, you know,

00:56:47 ◼   ► with kids or pets and yeah.

00:56:49 ◼   ► And also most people prioritize different things in their home office.

00:56:53 ◼   ► They don't care about what it looks like behind them.

00:56:55 ◼   ► Cause they're looking in front of them all day long, you know, they,

00:56:57 ◼   ► so they don't care.

00:56:58 ◼   ► Usually people sort of sit with a back against the wall and a bunch of framed,

00:57:03 ◼   ► you know, commemorative things. And those things don't look good on camera.

00:57:08 ◼   ► Yeah. So anyway,

00:57:09 ◼   ► that was my basic thing is I didn't want it to look like that because part of it

00:57:13 ◼   ► was simple vanity.

00:57:15 ◼   ► I don't want to put out a show that looks like garbage,

00:57:17 ◼   ► but also if I have trouble following along with a

00:57:22 ◼   ► very poor,

00:57:23 ◼   ► just sort of record the actual zoom or FaceTime,

00:57:28 ◼   ► or it doesn't even matter which of the things you're using,

00:57:31 ◼   ► if you just record it to disc, I really,

00:57:34 ◼   ► I just have a hard time following along. I,

00:57:38 ◼   ► I wanted people to enjoy it. You know, and that was my basic thing was let's,

00:57:43 ◼   ► let's, you know, we don't do anything fancy,

00:57:45 ◼   ► but let's make it look good and sound good and let's figure this out.

00:57:47 ◼   ► And we figured out the mechanics of basically long story short. And then,

00:57:51 ◼   ► you know, I wrote all the technical details, but do it as a double ender

00:57:55 ◼   ► and have a camera. That's not even the webcam recording it.

00:58:00 ◼   ► We just used iPhones, but the iPhones are great people. Uh, and again,

00:58:04 ◼   ► that was, it wasn't like a, uh, an advertisement for iPhones.

00:58:09 ◼   ► I wasn't even under any obligation to say that I shot my end with an iPhone

00:58:14 ◼   ► 11 and that I did what I could have used a different camera.

00:58:18 ◼   ► I could have used any camera I wanted to. They just said,

00:58:20 ◼   ► we're going to use iPhones. And I was like, I was going to use an iPhone too,

00:58:23 ◼   ► cause it's actually the best video camera I own.

00:58:26 ◼   ► And I didn't really feel like buying a new camera just for this. Um,

00:58:31 ◼   ► not because I'm cheap either. I love buying cameras,

00:58:34 ◼   ► but I just was afraid to buy something and learn something new.

00:58:36 ◼   ► I want something dependable. Um,

00:58:39 ◼   ► people couldn't believe that they were just shot with iPhone 11s. I mean,

00:58:42 ◼   ► cause both ends looked great. Yeah. Yeah. They, they, they looked,

00:58:46 ◼   ► they look and sound great right out of the box. You know,

00:58:49 ◼   ► all the default computational math is there for a reason.

00:58:53 ◼   ► It's to take any material and automatically automatically make it look

00:58:58 ◼   ► incredible without having to do anything. And then when, you know,

00:59:01 ◼   ► and then if you have actual post-production involved,

00:59:04 ◼   ► you can take that and elevate it just that couple of notches better.

00:59:08 ◼   ► And that's when people start to say, Oh,

00:59:10 ◼   ► that didn't even look like an iPhone that looked like a professional camera.

00:59:13 ◼   ► And so a lot of the weight was off my shoulders though. I think we got this.

00:59:17 ◼   ► I think we can do it mechanically. I think I know what equipment we'll use.

00:59:22 ◼   ► I know that I've got a good rapport with Federighi and Jaws, you know,

00:59:27 ◼   ► this is going to work. Um, and then they were like, well,

00:59:32 ◼   ► what are you going to do about editing? And again, you know, and it, it,

00:59:36 ◼   ► it did not like I said that came out like they were,

00:59:41 ◼   ► confrontational about it. And I was like, ah, I've got it. And they're like, well,

00:59:44 ◼   ► we could suggest like, we can suggest contractors we've worked with,

00:59:48 ◼   ► worked with for editing. I was like, I think, I think I'll, you know, and,

00:59:52 ◼   ► and again, it wasn't like they were trying to take ownership of it.

00:59:55 ◼   ► It's my show. And, you know, and they're like, okay, cool.

00:59:58 ◼   ► And I thought I had in the back of my head, I'm going to ask,

01:00:01 ◼   ► I'm going to ask Adam and sandwich because I,

01:00:05 ◼   ► I just know that you knock it out of the park.

01:00:07 ◼   ► But then I put it off a little too long.

01:00:09 ◼   ► And then I got all real nervous about it. I was like, Oh my God,

01:00:12 ◼   ► what if they're busy? You know? And it's like, what a terrible ask.

01:00:15 ◼   ► And I really, I didn't know, I didn't really have a plan B,

01:00:20 ◼   ► but I was like, well, I could figure out a plan B. I mean, you know,

01:00:25 ◼   ► well, you know, you have an army at your disposal, like a little army of, of,

01:00:30 ◼   ► of, of people, of fans that would just mobilize right here. Right.

01:00:34 ◼   ► I'm not, I'm not toiling on obscurity. So I wasn't like,

01:00:38 ◼   ► it's sandwich or nothing, but it's like sandwich or the unknown.

01:00:43 ◼   ► And, but I reached out and you were like, yeah, we could do that. It'd be great.

01:00:46 ◼   ► And then as we got into it and I, I just realized,

01:00:53 ◼   ► Oh my God, if I, if this weren't you and your,

01:00:57 ◼   ► your colleagues, a sandwich, I would just be,

01:00:59 ◼   ► I'd be on the edge of a cliff thinking about jumping off because it,

01:01:04 ◼   ► it was such a tremendous relief to know that it was in good hands and

01:01:09 ◼   ► to give what I thought were just sort of like the equivalent,

01:01:13 ◼   ► almost literal equivalent of like a pen on a napkin

01:01:18 ◼   ► instructions. Here's, you know, basically,

01:01:21 ◼   ► you guys took it and just completely got it.

01:01:24 ◼   ► You knew exactly what I meant and cut it together. And,

01:01:29 ◼   ► and you know, like you said, just, you know,

01:01:31 ◼   ► a little bit of color correction and stuff to just, you know,

01:01:34 ◼   ► sweeten it just the right amount.

01:01:36 ◼   ► Yeah. Just make the conversation flow. There's three, there's three,

01:01:41 ◼   ► literally three video sources that you're sort of in there in this case, what,

01:01:45 ◼   ► five. Yeah. Cause they each had two cameras. Right. Then you're just,

01:01:49 ◼   ► you're just making sure everything flows together and doesn't impede the

01:01:52 ◼   ► conversation.

01:01:53 ◼   ► Yeah. And I, you know, came out great, but it was,

01:01:56 ◼   ► what a relief and what a tremendous.

01:01:59 ◼   ► Fun to be asked because I've obviously been to, you know,

01:02:02 ◼   ► many of your live shows in the Bay and you always have like

01:02:06 ◼   ► Caleb Sexton and you know, Jake Schumacher,

01:02:10 ◼   ► sort of doing the live,

01:02:11 ◼   ► the live event coverage of stuff from the audio and video standpoint.

01:02:16 ◼   ► And then, and those guys are all great and very talented. And of course,

01:02:20 ◼   ► Caleb works with you on the audio side of things still,

01:02:23 ◼   ► but I wouldn't have been well suited to, or set up to do that kind of thing.

01:02:27 ◼   ► Live events is not our, our bag at sandwich, but this,

01:02:32 ◼   ► this kind of thing, especially having just come off the project with,

01:02:35 ◼   ► for Slack where literally it was all done remotely and you know,

01:02:38 ◼   ► figuring out how to shuffle data around and capturing from many locations,

01:02:43 ◼   ► et cetera. So it just felt like a fun thing to do. Let's try this out.

01:02:47 ◼   ► And the only thing that we didn't really account for was like working with an

01:02:50 ◼   ► hour plus of how long was the final thing?

01:02:53 ◼   ► I'm going to say it was around 80 minutes.

01:02:57 ◼   ► Yeah. Yeah. 80 minutes of 80 minutes of program instead of our typical 90 seconds.

01:03:02 ◼   ► Data is a lot heavier as we, as we all experienced.

01:03:05 ◼   ► Otherwise we would have gotten it out that first night. Right. Oh God,

01:03:09 ◼   ► that was harrowing.

01:03:10 ◼   ► Oh, it was so bad. I had, I,

01:03:14 ◼   ► I've talked about it before, but yeah,

01:03:16 ◼   ► my 10 megabit per second upstream here in Capletown has,

01:03:21 ◼   ► hasn't really been an issue. Like Ben Thompson, you know,

01:03:25 ◼   ► the video goes up to Dropbox and we use a thing called Zen caster for dithering,

01:03:29 ◼   ► but we, you know,

01:03:29 ◼   ► we're literally really record like 16, 17 minutes to do a 15 minute show.

01:03:34 ◼   ► And you know,

01:03:35 ◼   ► he's always making fun of me for how long it takes for my 17 minutes of nothing

01:03:39 ◼   ► but wave audio to upload like

01:03:44 ◼   ► and four key, 30 frames per second,

01:03:48 ◼   ► 4k video. Yeah, it was heavy. Yeah.

01:03:53 ◼   ► I did have the thought when we were doing, I did have the thought as we were

01:03:56 ◼   ► waiting for the six or seven hours for my stuff to go to where you guys could

01:04:00 ◼   ► access it. I thought, well,

01:04:01 ◼   ► this makes me feel a lot better about the fact that I only shot my side from one

01:04:06 ◼   ► camera instead of two. They did with theirs cause it would have doubled it.

01:04:10 ◼   ► Yeah. And of course on their end they, you know, we get, we,

01:04:16 ◼   ► they had the same, I think frame IO, um,

01:04:19 ◼   ► destination that we gave you and there's was up in like 14 seconds flat.

01:04:24 ◼   ► Like I wisecracked that, you know, I,

01:04:29 ◼   ► that they apparently have better internet than I do, but you know,

01:04:32 ◼   ► I suspect it's really no joke that, you know, Apple's

01:04:36 ◼   ► not just Apple period, but their new, new facility has, you know,

01:04:41 ◼   ► very fast internet. Uh, what do you think?

01:04:46 ◼   ► Here's a technical question for you. So we shot 4k 30 frames per second, um,

01:04:50 ◼   ► which may or may not be 29.97, whatever. I don't care. It's 30 frames per second.

01:04:55 ◼   ► Do you think we should have shot 24 frames per second?

01:04:58 ◼   ► No. Oh, such a great question. I love talking about frame rates. Um,

01:05:04 ◼   ► and I'm dealing with that with my own home set up too. Uh,

01:05:07 ◼   ► there's a time and a place for, uh, 24 frames per second.

01:05:12 ◼   ► And I think for most purposes when you're trying to make something

01:05:16 ◼   ► feel, um,

01:05:18 ◼   ► greater than contemporaneous when,

01:05:22 ◼   ► when you're trying to lend some weight or some archival importance to something.

01:05:26 ◼   ► Yeah. 24 frames per second is great because films are shot in 24 and

01:05:31 ◼   ► you, the, the, the,

01:05:34 ◼   ► the eye and the mind can pick up on the subtle differences between 24 and 30

01:05:39 ◼   ► where we all grew up with 30 frames per second or, um,

01:05:43 ◼   ► and so we know that that represents, um, essentially video,

01:05:48 ◼   ► which often, especially when we were kids, video was used for,

01:05:53 ◼   ► you know, live event type of things or, you know, news or,

01:05:57 ◼   ► um, you know, SNL kind of things,

01:06:01 ◼   ► live to tape kind of things.

01:06:04 ◼   ► And it makes you feel more present as though it's, it's, it's happening in the

01:06:09 ◼   ► moment. Um, so with, with something like a zoom call, yeah,

01:06:13 ◼   ► I could easily switch my camera to 24 frames per second, but then I just,

01:06:17 ◼   ► I feel like it lends almost like a self-importance to my image that I don't

01:06:22 ◼   ► really need to be in most of my business calls.

01:06:25 ◼   ► Maybe if I'm trying to say something very, very important, profound,

01:06:29 ◼   ► then I'll switch it over to 24. But then again,

01:06:32 ◼   ► I'm talking to people who are all mostly, you know,

01:06:35 ◼   ► with their Mac book camera and you know, the, the same 29 97 frame rate.

01:06:40 ◼   ► So I'll,

01:06:41 ◼   ► I'll just be the odd man out and it'll look weird and everything.

01:06:45 ◼   ► But years and years ago when I was at Coachella, I noticed, and they start,

01:06:50 ◼   ► and they,

01:06:51 ◼   ► it was one of the first years that they had giant video screens up on the main

01:06:55 ◼   ► stage, you know, like they do in so many concerts now,

01:06:58 ◼   ► every concert, every concert has giant video screens on at least the left and

01:07:03 ◼   ► right of the stage so that if you're far away,

01:07:07 ◼   ► you can experience the event in person.

01:07:10 ◼   ► And for those first, uh,

01:07:13 ◼   ► it might've been just the first year that they had basically an actual crew,

01:07:18 ◼   ► like an, you know,

01:07:19 ◼   ► an actual like multi-camera video crew up there on the stage shooting with

01:07:24 ◼   ► cranes, getting the cap, you know, capturing the,

01:07:27 ◼   ► the audience footage and everything meant to feel like a real time documentary

01:07:32 ◼   ► crew. Well, they, it was weirdest phenomenon, but they, they,

01:07:36 ◼   ► uh, oh man, I, I'm feeling like, um, Deja Vu,

01:07:41 ◼   ► like we've talked about this on your show before. And if so, shame on me.

01:07:45 ◼   ► Okay. But anyway, so that, that first year they,

01:07:51 ◼   ► it was in the very beginning of video cameras,

01:07:53 ◼   ► pro video cameras being able to capture in 24 frames per second,

01:07:57 ◼   ► which was a huge game changer for filmmakers back then. Right. And so they,

01:08:02 ◼   ► um, they captured and displayed their live, you know, doc, um,

01:08:08 ◼   ► you know,

01:08:09 ◼   ► filmmaking in 24 frames per second so that everything that you were watching on

01:08:14 ◼   ► the video screens up there was 24 frames per second.

01:08:16 ◼   ► And the unintended consequence of that or the psychological effect of that is

01:08:21 ◼   ► that people in the audience felt like they were watching a movie instead of a

01:08:25 ◼   ► concert. And when you feel it, when you're watching a movie,

01:08:28 ◼   ► you don't really like scream and dance and shout a lot.

01:08:32 ◼   ► So what I noticed was that the, the audience was, or the,

01:08:35 ◼   ► the crowd was way more subdued in ways that aren't, you know,

01:08:39 ◼   ► don't lend themselves to a good concert. And, uh,

01:08:44 ◼   ► it was just the weirdest thing. And then the next year they flipped it back to 30

01:08:47 ◼   ► frames per second. And it felt again, like in real time,

01:08:50 ◼   ► it felt real time. Like you're supposed to be reacting.

01:08:53 ◼   ► You're not intended to stay sort of quiet and, and spectate.

01:08:57 ◼   ► You're supposed to participate.

01:08:58 ◼   ► I remember the first time I saw something like this and it wasn't live in an

01:09:03 ◼   ► audience. It was, and I know it was on MTV. I'm going to just say it was the,

01:09:07 ◼   ► yeah, the movie award. No, yes. It was, it was, or maybe the movie awards.

01:09:12 ◼   ► I totally remember that. Yeah. They did 24 the first, the first time. Yeah.

01:09:17 ◼   ► Maybe it was. So I don't know. It was one of their award shows,

01:09:19 ◼   ► but they did 24 and I have very vivid memories

01:09:24 ◼   ► of watching it with Amy. And I don't even watch a lot of award shows.

01:09:27 ◼   ► I maybe I used to watch more, I think, but, uh,

01:09:30 ◼   ► well, they used to be more of events and now it just, everything disappears.

01:09:34 ◼   ► But I remember it on, in a,

01:09:36 ◼   ► in a couple of different ways is I remember, I remember watching it.

01:09:40 ◼   ► I remember being blown away by the quality at first and thinking,

01:09:45 ◼   ► what are they, how are they doing this? And then like very quickly realized,

01:09:49 ◼   ► Oh, they're shooting 24 frames per second.

01:09:51 ◼   ► That's what's giving it this film look. Um, you know,

01:09:55 ◼   ► and calling it a film look is the thing we don't even talk about anymore because

01:09:59 ◼   ► it's gotten so good.

01:10:00 ◼   ► But there was a while there in the late nineties through the early

01:10:05 ◼   ► two thousands where film look, film, look, film,

01:10:08 ◼   ► look was something that all anybody, I mean,

01:10:11 ◼   ► you certainly know more than I do because you went into it professionally.

01:10:14 ◼   ► But even as like somebody, like a nerd following along,

01:10:17 ◼   ► it was something I, you know, I was aware of.

01:10:20 ◼   ► Everybody was looking for filters and things you could throw video through to

01:10:24 ◼   ► make it look like film. And of course the biggest is just shoot 24 instead of 30

01:10:29 ◼   ► frames per second. Um, I figured this out.

01:10:33 ◼   ► And of course I start yapping to Amy about it.

01:10:35 ◼   ► And she's like there to see Johnny Depp. She's not,

01:10:38 ◼   ► does not want to hear about frame rate. Yeah.

01:10:43 ◼   ► And at first my first feeling was technical

01:10:47 ◼   ► euphoria of this is amazing. They're shooting something live in 24.

01:10:52 ◼   ► And it does look like a movie and it does look like film,

01:10:55 ◼   ► even though it can't be film because it's live, you know,

01:11:00 ◼   ► and I'm amazed. And then very quickly I was like, but this is all wrong.

01:11:04 ◼   ► Like this doesn't feel live at all.

01:11:07 ◼   ► This feels like I'm watching a movie years from now about the

01:11:12 ◼   ► whatever year it was the 2003 video music awards or whatever. Like it,

01:11:16 ◼   ► it just totally broke the illusion that I was watching a live broadcast of a,

01:11:20 ◼   ► of an award show.

01:11:21 ◼   ► Right. And it took the,

01:11:23 ◼   ► it took the experimentation in order to figure out that that was wrong. That's,

01:11:27 ◼   ► that's, that's what's kind of fun is that that feeling that where they were with

01:11:31 ◼   ► all these, the introduction of these new tools,

01:11:33 ◼   ► the new tech to do 24 frames per second, they were learning it as,

01:11:37 ◼   ► as the rest of us were too.

01:11:40 ◼   ► And then like 20 minutes would go by and I would just say to Amy after like,

01:11:44 ◼   ► keep my mouth shut, but do you, do you see what I mean?

01:11:47 ◼   ► It doesn't feel alive. It's like, don't just like leave. She's like,

01:11:51 ◼   ► get out of here.

01:11:52 ◼   ► Right. Well, I mean,

01:11:53 ◼   ► and it's even the same phenomenon in reverse of the H high frame rate stuff

01:11:58 ◼   ► that, you know,

01:11:59 ◼   ► Peter Jackson or Ang Lee was experimenting with where it seems like it might be a

01:12:03 ◼   ► good idea, but then you quickly discover, Oh, I thought it was a bad idea.

01:12:06 ◼   ► Because, because what, like the brain associates, it was,

01:12:10 ◼   ► was something that it's already experienced, you know, in our,

01:12:13 ◼   ► in the case of MTV or Coachella,

01:12:15 ◼   ► the brain associates it with watching a movie.

01:12:19 ◼   ► And in the case of Peter Jackson movie the brain associates

01:12:24 ◼   ► it with watching a soap opera or you know,

01:12:29 ◼   ► motion smoothing on your TV.

01:12:30 ◼   ► All right. So I will say, I'll never find it in, I,

01:12:34 ◼   ► I didn't bookmark it, so I'll never find it. But, um,

01:12:37 ◼   ► at some point within the last month,

01:12:40 ◼   ► and it was more like a month ago when the protests were more of an ongoing,

01:12:45 ◼   ► uh, thing around the country. Uh, and there,

01:12:50 ◼   ► of course, one of the, the very notable,

01:12:54 ◼   ► I mean, just remarkable. And it's unlike anything else anybody's ever seen in

01:12:58 ◼   ► history,

01:12:59 ◼   ► aspects of protests in 2020 is the fact that

01:13:04 ◼   ► almost every,

01:13:06 ◼   ► the overwhelming majority of the people involved in the protests are

01:13:11 ◼   ► carrying extraordinarily good video cameras with them at all times.

01:13:16 ◼   ► Um, but the default and you know, the, the,

01:13:21 ◼   ► the defaults are the defaults for a reason. Um,

01:13:26 ◼   ► the default doesn't change for most people in the default for just about every

01:13:31 ◼   ► camera I'm aware of. And certainly all iPhones is 10, 80 P,

01:13:35 ◼   ► 30 frames per second, but you can go to 60. Um,

01:13:40 ◼   ► and I saw one of the things here in Philadelphia, um,

01:13:45 ◼   ► you know, the, the famous art museum we have on our park,

01:13:49 ◼   ► our Ben Franklin Parkway,

01:13:51 ◼   ► where the steps are that Rocky Balboa ran up and cinematic.

01:13:56 ◼   ► Fame, um, is it,

01:13:59 ◼   ► but it's also where we have big public events like, uh,

01:14:03 ◼   ► big concerts for the 4th of July when you can have concerts for the 4th of July.

01:14:08 ◼   ► And it's also a great spot for protests because it's just this big,

01:14:13 ◼   ► wide Boulevard Parkway. And anyway, somebody shot, um,

01:14:18 ◼   ► a scene there and they clearly had their phone at 60 frames per second.

01:14:23 ◼   ► And the difference, the,

01:14:25 ◼   ► the you are there aspect of it was just unbelievable.

01:14:30 ◼   ► It was like, holy crap. Like if you've got this,

01:14:34 ◼   ► if you're going to shoot a protest footage or like news event footage and you

01:14:39 ◼   ► can quick put your phone in 60 frames per second,

01:14:42 ◼   ► that might be a fantastic idea.

01:14:44 ◼   ► And it really also really helped with the handheld nature of it.

01:14:50 ◼   ► And it wasn't that the footage that I saw that was 60 wasn't any kind of incident.

01:14:55 ◼   ► It wasn't like, oh, here's the cops, you know,

01:14:59 ◼   ► beating on a guy or, or here's protesters setting a car fire.

01:15:03 ◼   ► It was just, Hey, look at this amazing crowd of people.

01:15:07 ◼   ► But it was panning around, obviously handheld.

01:15:10 ◼   ► And the panning just was just unbelievable at 60 frames per second in terms of

01:15:16 ◼   ► convey conveying a sense of this is what it would be like to stand on that spot

01:15:20 ◼   ► and pan your head.

01:15:21 ◼   ► Yeah, that's incredible that what the subtleness,

01:15:25 ◼   ► the subtlety that our brains can pick up on in terms of like the space between

01:15:29 ◼   ► the frames. And I agree 60 frames per second for something like that is so much

01:15:34 ◼   ► more immersive. Um, where, you know, and, and, and you started to,

01:15:38 ◼   ► you start to think about like what, what are,

01:15:42 ◼   ► what is the max where it doesn't matter anymore? Where is that?

01:15:44 ◼   ► Where did the return start diminishing? Um, you know, you know,

01:15:48 ◼   ► and then think about the fact that Canon just released an eight K pro consumer

01:15:53 ◼   ► camera. Uh, and like, what, what,

01:15:57 ◼   ► is that going to make everything feel that much more immersive or, or not?

01:16:01 ◼   ► Yeah. Um, you know,

01:16:03 ◼   ► typically high frame rates are so that you can slow them down to, um,

01:16:08 ◼   ► you know, 24 and, and, and, and, uh, you know,

01:16:11 ◼   ► distort time in that way and sort of make, make, uh,

01:16:15 ◼   ► make a moment feel differently. But, um, I really like the,

01:16:19 ◼   ► this idea because it starts to approach at 60 frames per second.

01:16:22 ◼   ► It starts to approach sort of VR feeling without the VR.

01:16:26 ◼   ► Yeah, definitely. That's absolutely the effect. It is sort of a,

01:16:30 ◼   ► just looking at it on a simple,

01:16:34 ◼   ► I say simple and there's somebody at Apple who's worked on like the HDR aspects

01:16:39 ◼   ► with the OLED screen. It was like, that's not simple, but you know what I mean?

01:16:43 ◼   ► It doesn't involve goggles or a curved screen or you know, any kind of 3d,

01:16:47 ◼   ► but there is a VR like aspect to 60 frames per second.

01:16:50 ◼   ► And I have to say before I forget, because I, I, again,

01:16:54 ◼   ► I should have put it in the notes, but now I'll remember it.

01:16:56 ◼   ► My funniest behind the scenes aspect of my show, um,

01:17:01 ◼   ► which I have to say, and you say, well, why would you ever need an AK camera?

01:17:06 ◼   ► You know, you can't, maybe you can't see it and the minimum screen size,

01:17:11 ◼   ► you would need to be able to see the difference in quality from 4k is

01:17:16 ◼   ► enormous, you know, and certainly wouldn't, you know,

01:17:19 ◼   ► even if you had like a wall to wall TV in your living room,

01:17:23 ◼   ► quite possibly wouldn't be large enough to see the difference and how many

01:17:26 ◼   ► people are going to project their consumer shot video onto an

01:17:31 ◼   ► actual cinema movie screen where maybe 8k would make a

01:17:35 ◼   ► difference. But one thing you can do with 4k footage is you can crop.

01:17:40 ◼   ► And so if you have a cave footage and you have, and it's, you know,

01:17:44 ◼   ► you may not do it so much in a professionally shot thing,

01:17:48 ◼   ► like what you do, because you're going to, you can plan everything out,

01:17:51 ◼   ► but certainly if you're shooting news footage or like a protest or something

01:17:56 ◼   ► like that, if you happen to capture something on 8k,

01:17:59 ◼   ► but the detail is only a portion of the frame you can crop and you,

01:18:03 ◼   ► instead of losing resolution, you can still keep it and broadcast it.

01:18:07 ◼   ► And if you're broadcasting at 1080, you know,

01:18:10 ◼   ► just a tiny fraction of the frame is, is, isn't losing any fidelity at all.

01:18:14 ◼   ► And anyway, the thing I'm reminded of is

01:18:17 ◼   ► the soda can. Yeah. So we,

01:18:23 ◼   ► what was it a La Croix or something? What was the, I forget what it was.

01:18:26 ◼   ► Not La Croix. I don't drink La Croix. It was a San Pellegrino.

01:18:30 ◼   ► The San Pellegrino sells these fruity things.

01:18:33 ◼   ► So I stressed inordinately probably too much over where to frame my end of the

01:18:40 ◼   ► video and got some great advice from you,

01:18:44 ◼   ► which was I had showed you a couple of places around my house and you're like,

01:18:47 ◼   ► Hey dummy, just shoot it right here in the corner of your office.

01:18:50 ◼   ► That looks great because that looks great. It's simple. It's you don't even,

01:18:54 ◼   ► these other ideas are bad, you know? And again, that's not how,

01:18:58 ◼   ► those aren't the words you said.

01:18:59 ◼   ► The words you said made it seem like maybe I wasn't an idiot for suggesting some

01:19:03 ◼   ► of the other spots, but I could read between the lines and figure it out.

01:19:06 ◼   ► And then I shot it by my wife and my wife Amy. And she was like, yeah, he's right.

01:19:11 ◼   ► That does look great. Why, you know,

01:19:12 ◼   ► why do we pay all this money to get these nice slats on the side that we've got

01:19:16 ◼   ► the cool thing on the one side of my office? Uh, why wouldn't you shoot there?

01:19:20 ◼   ► And I was like, Oh yeah,

01:19:21 ◼   ► I don't know why I went and shot footage in every other room in my house. Uh,

01:19:26 ◼   ► so I set it up and of course it was nothing was looked like it was right.

01:19:30 ◼   ► You saw the shot from like two days before and it was like, just like a,

01:19:33 ◼   ► you know, like boxes and stuff. And I was like, well, Hey, you know, Amy,

01:19:36 ◼   ► can you make this look good? And she was like, yes, I will make it look good.

01:19:39 ◼   ► And I think your advice was just make sure there's some color. Uh,

01:19:44 ◼   ► I think she did a good job. We had some nice stuff in there. She did great.

01:19:47 ◼   ► It looked great. Um, but she really did. And she knocked her so, I mean she,

01:19:51 ◼   ► and she didn't half ass it.

01:19:52 ◼   ► She really spent a lot of time and because we had actually done the backstory is

01:19:56 ◼   ► that my office got renovated, uh,

01:19:59 ◼   ► the end of last year through the beginning of this year and literally wrapped up

01:20:03 ◼   ► right when quarantine hit,

01:20:05 ◼   ► like the timing could not have been more serendipitous in terms of like,

01:20:10 ◼   ► if quarantine had hit like two weeks earlier, you know,

01:20:12 ◼   ► and like whenever you have any kind of, uh,

01:20:15 ◼   ► home improvement type stuff, the last like couple of days,

01:20:18 ◼   ► everything comes together, you know,

01:20:20 ◼   ► like there's all sorts of stuff that's mostly done,

01:20:24 ◼   ► but then it doesn't get the finishing touch until the very end.

01:20:27 ◼   ► So like two weeks would have been like,

01:20:29 ◼   ► we would have had like the whole quarantine in a house that's covered with tarps

01:20:33 ◼   ► and stuff like that. And instead we weren't. Um,

01:20:36 ◼   ► but I've never, because I'm me,

01:20:40 ◼   ► I've never fully unpacked my office stuff from the basement.

01:20:44 ◼   ► So like I've got all this stuff I need to put on the shelves,

01:20:48 ◼   ► the nice new shelves I have in my office, but haven't,

01:20:52 ◼   ► and to look for nice stuff to put on the shelves.

01:20:55 ◼   ► My wife really had to do a lot more work than you might think in terms of going

01:20:59 ◼   ► through cardboard boxes with unhelpful

01:21:04 ◼   ► names. And she made it look really nice.

01:21:08 ◼   ► I really think it looked great.

01:21:09 ◼   ► And I shot the interview with Jaws and Craig first,

01:21:13 ◼   ► and then I had to shoot my opening, uh, where I thank the sponsors, uh,

01:21:18 ◼   ► second and in between I was parched and got, got a soda and

01:21:22 ◼   ► left it in, left it behind me

01:21:25 ◼   ► and really just did not have it in theory.

01:21:31 ◼   ► I could have just rerecorded the opening, but I just didn't have it in me.

01:21:34 ◼   ► I was emotionally spent. I just, and I need,

01:21:37 ◼   ► I wanted to turn this around quickly. And, but

01:21:40 ◼   ► if it had been all me, I would have just said, ah,

01:21:44 ◼   ► the hell with it is just soda can in the back. It's like a gag.

01:21:47 ◼   ► But my wife had really knocked herself out to make it look as perfect as

01:21:51 ◼   ► possible.

01:21:51 ◼   ► I really felt like I'd be letting her down and you told me, don't worry,

01:21:56 ◼   ► we can crop it out.

01:21:57 ◼   ► Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, that was, that was, uh, that was plan A.

01:22:01 ◼   ► Plan B was actually just to patch it out, you know, just to

01:22:05 ◼   ► motion Photoshop it, which wouldn't have been that hard either, but the crop,

01:22:11 ◼   ► the crop did fine. Um, and yeah, we, we shoot in usually art,

01:22:16 ◼   ► we shoot our commercials in either 4k or 3k and it's not really because they're

01:22:20 ◼   ► planned out professionally. It, we do,

01:22:23 ◼   ► we punch into shots all the time, um, to get, you know,

01:22:26 ◼   ► closer or whatever, just, um, to be able to reframe.

01:22:30 ◼   ► So it's really nice to have the extra, the extra resolution.

01:22:33 ◼   ► Right. Yeah. I didn't mean to, I guess I didn't think about that, but yeah,

01:22:38 ◼   ► I guess I do notice sometimes when I'm watching stuff that it probably wasn't a

01:22:41 ◼   ► different setup,

01:22:42 ◼   ► but just punched in to get slightly closer in an interview.

01:22:46 ◼   ► Yeah. You can probably tell a little bit in very,

01:22:48 ◼   ► very subtle ways by how,

01:22:50 ◼   ► if you're cropping out the optical edges of the lens, um,

01:22:54 ◼   ► you can sort of tell though,

01:22:57 ◼   ► that's not what any actual lens looks like on the edges of the frame, right?

01:23:01 ◼   ► But you know, not, not in, not in a way that you would ever really think about.

01:23:05 ◼   ► Right. And if you're interested in the subject matter, that's the last, you know,

01:23:09 ◼   ► if you're looking at the edges of the frame for optical distortion,

01:23:15 ◼   ► the telltale sign of like an anamorphic lens or something like that,

01:23:18 ◼   ► you're probably bored by whatever it is you're watching. Right.

01:23:22 ◼   ► And that's very different from like your side as, you know, when,

01:23:26 ◼   ► when you're in editing and you become so intimately familiar with every single

01:23:31 ◼   ► shot in a way that you almost lose sense of the flow of the cinema when you get

01:23:38 ◼   ► caught up on, you know,

01:23:41 ◼   ► the specifics of how do we cut between these three things or, uh,

01:23:45 ◼   ► but when you're just watching, you really should,

01:23:47 ◼   ► if you're noticing the edges of the frame, you're probably bored.

01:23:50 ◼   ► Yeah. Something, something went wrong. Yeah. So I rewatched the, um,

01:23:54 ◼   ► the keynote this year and I, and I was just cause I, I,

01:23:59 ◼   ► when we were talking about frame rates, I was got curious what,

01:24:02 ◼   ► when if you had to go, if you had to guess, what would you say?

01:24:05 ◼   ► Was it shot in 24 or 30?

01:24:08 ◼   ► That's a partly what made me think about it because there was a sort of

01:24:12 ◼   ► cinematic look to it, but I don't think it was 24.

01:24:17 ◼   ► I think it was 30, but I don't know what they did. That's my guess.

01:24:20 ◼   ► And I have not, I swear to you, I haven't cheated and looked,

01:24:23 ◼   ► but my guess is they shot the keynote in 30,

01:24:26 ◼   ► but there is something going on in post or some things going on in post that give

01:24:31 ◼   ► it a movie like feel that makes me wonder.

01:24:38 ◼   ► That's my guess. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean,

01:24:40 ◼   ► I love that there was the whole meticulously composed sort of premeditated,

01:24:45 ◼   ► um, feel to the whole thing. I actually do think, I mean,

01:24:50 ◼   ► I'm going to guess, but I could be wrong and whatever.

01:24:52 ◼   ► Then I lose my filmmaker license,

01:24:54 ◼   ► but I do think it was shot in 24 frames per second. Um,

01:24:58 ◼   ► I'm almost positive,

01:25:00 ◼   ► especially looking at the opening stuff with Tim Cook in the, you know, in the,

01:25:06 ◼   ► in the theater. Right.

01:25:09 ◼   ► Well, hold that thought. I want to get back.

01:25:10 ◼   ► Let's just go deep on the keynote and how they did it. But let me,

01:25:13 ◼   ► let me take a break here and hit the money button. Um,

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01:26:54 ◼   ► This is a real interesting brand color. I'm on the website.

01:26:59 ◼   ► I don't think I've ever seen that as a brand color before.

01:27:02 ◼   ► Kind of like that bright beige foundation, like makeup foundation color.

01:27:07 ◼   ► Hmm. It is. And it sort of has like a hint of orange to it.

01:27:11 ◼   ► Yeah. A little orange. Yeah. It is an interesting brand color.

01:27:15 ◼   ► Kind of like it.

01:27:17 ◼   ► I look at that and you look at that. It's seed. Now you've got me thinking,

01:27:21 ◼   ► you got me thinking like you, uh, but if you scroll down, there's,

01:27:26 ◼   ► there's a young woman here about halfway down the page and, uh,

01:27:29 ◼   ► she's got like a potted plant next door. The pot. Oh yeah. Same color.

01:27:34 ◼   ► Yeah. Picks up the color. Yeah. You're right. Yeah.

01:27:36 ◼   ► Right there with the package. Um, so the keynote,

01:27:43 ◼   ► I, yeah, this is, it was in hindsight,

01:27:47 ◼   ► and I've rewatched the actual keynote again. So I watched it live.

01:27:52 ◼   ► Nobody knew it was gonna, what it was going to be like.

01:27:56 ◼   ► Uh, I expected something sort of like this.

01:28:00 ◼   ► I know there were a lot of people and I was, I guess I should have to,

01:28:04 ◼   ► to get my being right points should have posted about it on daring fireball.

01:28:09 ◼   ► Um, but like the night before I tweeted my predictions for how they would do it,

01:28:14 ◼   ► like the basic mechanics of how they would do it.

01:28:16 ◼   ► And most of the people seem to be under the belief that I was crazy.

01:28:19 ◼   ► Cause I thought it was going to look like, you remember,

01:28:21 ◼   ► did you see the video when they did the, um,

01:28:24 ◼   ► they came out with the magic keyboard, uh, for the iPad in March,

01:28:28 ◼   ► you know, the keyboard cover and you can snap it in. And then they, they,

01:28:32 ◼   ► they had like a little video where they showed everybody in it.

01:28:35 ◼   ► And then they had a video of Craig Federighi somewhere in apple park with the

01:28:39 ◼   ► glass, you know,

01:28:41 ◼   ► atrium behind them in the sunny area of apple park behind them introducing it

01:28:46 ◼   ► pre-filmed obviously, you know, very professional looking,

01:28:51 ◼   ► sort of like what you would vaguely think Craig Federighi in an office at apple

01:28:56 ◼   ► park doing a commercial for the magic keyboard would look like.

01:29:01 ◼   ► I, you know, I was like, I think that's what the whole keynote will be like.

01:29:05 ◼   ► And I was a little off because I didn't,

01:29:08 ◼   ► I didn't really foresee that they would actually shoot it in the Steve jobs

01:29:12 ◼   ► theater, which is like the main staging ground for most of it. Um,

01:29:16 ◼   ► but most people seem to think what they would do is just do it like a regular

01:29:20 ◼   ► in-person keynote and just not have an audience or have an audience of apple

01:29:25 ◼   ► employees wearing masks and sparsely spread apart, which I was like,

01:29:30 ◼   ► there's no way they're going to do that. A it's illegal in California. I mean,

01:29:34 ◼   ► really it's, it's, you know, it just shows again,

01:29:37 ◼   ► without getting political about it, how people in America,

01:29:41 ◼   ► so many people don't understand the seriousness of the quarantine.

01:29:47 ◼   ► But even if it wasn't by the books, illegal in Cupertino,

01:29:51 ◼   ► California to have people have your employees deem them essential,

01:29:55 ◼   ► come in and clap. Uh,

01:29:59 ◼   ► it's just bad optics. If you're trying to, you know, be on team,

01:30:04 ◼   ► let's take this serious and truly, you know,

01:30:07 ◼   ► isolate people and shoot this in the safest way possible. You can't do it.

01:30:10 ◼   ► And having a truly empty audience and doing the keynote,

01:30:15 ◼   ► like just filming the day before rehearsal,

01:30:19 ◼   ► it would come across like death on video, right?

01:30:23 ◼   ► Like something that's meant to have an audience and applause

01:30:28 ◼   ► can't just be photographed without the audience and applause. It's,

01:30:33 ◼   ► it's just, I don't even know how to explain why that wouldn't work,

01:30:36 ◼   ► but it wouldn't work. And of course that's not what they did.

01:30:39 ◼   ► It would have been like that. Do you remember the, uh,

01:30:44 ◼   ► the rip mix burn commercial where the,

01:30:46 ◼   ► that the kid sits in the audience and then invites all his favorite artists to

01:30:51 ◼   ► come up on stage? I don't think I do. Oh yeah. This was,

01:30:55 ◼   ► uh, this is, it was an iTunes commercial and I, you know,

01:30:59 ◼   ► I want to say maybe 2000, 2001.

01:31:02 ◼   ► And this teenage kid who's the user,

01:31:05 ◼   ► the Apple user sits in the audience of a big, you know, classic theater.

01:31:10 ◼   ► And then like George Clinton. Oh yeah. Yeah. I don't know who else,

01:31:15 ◼   ► you know, but you know, probably smash mouth or something. Uh,

01:31:18 ◼   ► I'll come up on the stage cause he's, cause he's putting together his, uh,

01:31:23 ◼   ► you know, his playlist. George Clinton triggered it for me because yeah,

01:31:27 ◼   ► it cuts a very distinctive figure. Yeah. Right.

01:31:31 ◼   ► There was only one Apple commercial with George Clinton. Right. And it, uh,

01:31:35 ◼   ► cuts. Yeah. But, uh, you know,

01:31:38 ◼   ► what they did was so super high production value. I mean, it's just a crazy.

01:31:43 ◼   ► And you know, and it's in contrast,

01:31:47 ◼   ► it just is very appley to do it that way,

01:31:50 ◼   ► to take it as seriously as they can and not use this as an excuse to cut corners

01:31:55 ◼   ► and sort of phone in the keynote,

01:32:00 ◼   ► but to actually quite possibly put significantly more effort into the staging.

01:32:07 ◼   ► I, you know, to be honest, I guess it's incredible. It's a feat. It's a,

01:32:12 ◼   ► it's like an incredible feat what they pulled off. I don't know how,

01:32:15 ◼   ► how they did it, but, and I'm, I'm, I'm actually looking at this, uh,

01:32:19 ◼   ► the Apple, uh, sorry,

01:32:21 ◼   ► the magic keyboard video that you referenced and interestingly enough,

01:32:26 ◼   ► it looks like a lot of the same setup except this one is 30 for,

01:32:29 ◼   ► I would say this is 30 frames per second, the magic keyboard one.

01:32:32 ◼   ► And you can sort of see it, the,

01:32:35 ◼   ► the subtle difference between the that and dub dub keynote, which is,

01:32:40 ◼   ► now I I'm pretty convinced is 24,

01:32:42 ◼   ► but the lighting and the lensing and everything looks pretty similar.

01:32:46 ◼   ► Yeah, that was my guess. Uh, and I think it was sort of a dry run, but I do,

01:32:51 ◼   ► but I also feel though that they,

01:32:54 ◼   ► they plussed it up a lot for the keynote and what that magic video looks like.

01:33:00 ◼   ► Did you watch any just regular WWDC sessions?

01:33:04 ◼   ► I didn't. Uh, but that, that's what most, a lot of them look like, uh,

01:33:08 ◼   ► and the sessions just, you know, are staged,

01:33:11 ◼   ► but they're not all in the same room either.

01:33:13 ◼   ► There's a tremendous amount of variety in where they shot them at Apple park

01:33:18 ◼   ► just to have the speakers in different backgrounds. Um, yeah,

01:33:22 ◼   ► there's the funny,

01:33:23 ◼   ► the funniest part for me of the keynote was,

01:33:28 ◼   ► I don't know if you remember, but they, when they, um,

01:33:32 ◼   ► when they, they cut from Craig to, uh,

01:33:36 ◼   ► like a drone fly out,

01:33:38 ◼   ► like some high speed drone flyovers of Apple park and then it's sort of like the

01:33:42 ◼   ► camera goes into the fitness center and you land,

01:33:46 ◼   ► it sort of comes around the corner. And the funny,

01:33:49 ◼   ► the part that makes it funny is that they've got this very matrixy music like

01:33:53 ◼   ► down, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, like that,

01:33:55 ◼   ► like an I speed action movie and it comes around the corner and then just

01:34:00 ◼   ► reveals, you know, Kevin Lynch,

01:34:02 ◼   ► who is not an action hero by any stretch.

01:34:07 ◼   ► It was almost like a comic reveal, but I don't think it was intended to be. Right.

01:34:11 ◼   ► But I kind of loved that.

01:34:13 ◼   ► I love that there was that amount of care and like sort of cinema cinematic

01:34:17 ◼   ► forethought into, into every move, into every cut and like swish, you know,

01:34:21 ◼   ► matching swish pans and all that and all that stuff.

01:34:24 ◼   ► I just thought it was really excellent. And I tried to, um,

01:34:28 ◼   ► I got in touch with the one person I know who's on the inside at the, you know,

01:34:33 ◼   ► at Apple in the video, um,

01:34:35 ◼   ► the video realm and tried to get some insight information, but,

01:34:39 ◼   ► but exactly what you said there being tight lipped about it was how it was

01:34:42 ◼   ► actually executed. Yeah. Which is kind of stinks because it,

01:34:47 ◼   ► it's my explanation for a lot of Apple's secrecy is

01:34:53 ◼   ► it really comes down to the adage that

01:34:58 ◼   ► you know how you create a culture of being able to keep a secret.

01:35:02 ◼   ► You just don't talk about anything. Right.

01:35:06 ◼   ► It's actually not that complicated and it, you know, and it's sort of like the,

01:35:10 ◼   ► the whole COVID-19 thing, like, you know what the best thing we can do is it sucks.

01:35:15 ◼   ► It's really sucks, but it's actually not complicated.

01:35:19 ◼   ► Stay home. If you do go out, stay apart and wear a mask and wash your hands a lot.

01:35:26 ◼   ► And it's like that actually would knock it out if everybody did it.

01:35:29 ◼   ► So it's like the basic idea that they've internalized is they do want to keep

01:35:34 ◼   ► important strategic stuff or marketing stuff, right?

01:35:38 ◼   ► Like they don't want to talk about products cause they want to unveil them with

01:35:42 ◼   ► a big surprise and they don't want to talk about the things that they consider

01:35:47 ◼   ► trade secrets to how they do what they do.

01:35:50 ◼   ► But then that leads them to also be secretive about things that I don't think

01:35:56 ◼   ► there's any even strategic value in being secret about.

01:35:59 ◼   ► But they just like, yeah, why take a chance? You know?

01:36:04 ◼   ► Yeah. I mean,

01:36:05 ◼   ► it could be really interesting and educational to a lot of people to learn how

01:36:09 ◼   ► they pulled this off. And I'm, I'm, I mean, some of it is obvious.

01:36:14 ◼   ► They, they obviously have one of the most beautiful campuses in the,

01:36:18 ◼   ► in the world as their soundstage. Right. And, you know,

01:36:22 ◼   ► they use pretty probably commonly available production gear and an actual crew.

01:36:27 ◼   ► And then they like, you know,

01:36:29 ◼   ► they did things that you wouldn't normally do in a, in a, in a live event,

01:36:33 ◼   ► which is that they have it on the cap,

01:36:34 ◼   ► the camera on a dolly or a slider and they're just moving the slider back and

01:36:38 ◼   ► forth because, you know,

01:36:39 ◼   ► that keeps the camera feeling alive and dynamic and that's almost like one Oh

01:36:44 ◼   ► one film, you know, kickstarter filmmaking kind of stuff.

01:36:49 ◼   ► But then then you get into the question of whether they did any sort of live or

01:36:54 ◼   ► more, more robust compositing of virtual elements against the live action

01:37:01 ◼   ► people. And that's where my mind started going.

01:37:05 ◼   ► And that's where it started to get interesting to me.

01:37:07 ◼   ► And I think you and I even probably texted about it,

01:37:10 ◼   ► which is how much if any of this environment that Craig is in for the main stuff

01:37:17 ◼   ► is is virtual, like is it,

01:37:19 ◼   ► is this the actual live set and every reflection and every, you know,

01:37:24 ◼   ► piece of architectural detail is actually there and real including the,

01:37:30 ◼   ► the video display behind him.

01:37:31 ◼   ► Cause I have no doubt that Apple probably has the display technology to,

01:37:35 ◼   ► you know, throw you know, in real time throw incredible,

01:37:40 ◼   ► you know augmented visuals behind him like a concert or something.

01:37:46 ◼   ► But I don't think that that happened.

01:37:48 ◼   ► So I'm thinking that at least that was composited behind him and which is

01:37:53 ◼   ► interesting cause then you see the reflections of the thing on the floor,

01:37:57 ◼   ► which helps sell the effect.

01:37:59 ◼   ► But then there's a world in which they did something sort of like the

01:38:02 ◼   ► Mandalorian, which is not necessarily with you know,

01:38:07 ◼   ► what Mandalorian did,

01:38:08 ◼   ► which is the highest level of what's called virtual production,

01:38:12 ◼   ► which is where the entire studio is, is filled, is surrounded by these led displays,

01:38:17 ◼   ► these really powerful,

01:38:20 ◼   ► super bright led displays that are rendering in real time with this in CG,

01:38:25 ◼   ► what the environment would be of the world they're shooting in,

01:38:28 ◼   ► because then that ends up lighting the the characters in the foreground.

01:38:32 ◼   ► So I don't think that that's what's going on because really the lighting set up

01:38:36 ◼   ► for Craig or for any of the that quote unquote talent in the keynote,

01:38:41 ◼   ► the lighting is pretty simple. It's, it's sort of like just overhead lighting.

01:38:46 ◼   ► And it's like slightly directional and soft.

01:38:49 ◼   ► So they wouldn't have to do anything fancy with interactive lighting,

01:38:53 ◼   ► but they could have been on a green stage. And you know,

01:38:58 ◼   ► like sort of the middle level of the,

01:38:59 ◼   ► a virtual production is where you're shooting against green with a live action

01:39:04 ◼   ► performer and the camera moves around on a,

01:39:07 ◼   ► on a crane or a dolly like it is in this.

01:39:10 ◼   ► And the background is tracking in real time to, to,

01:39:15 ◼   ► to that live action footage. And you know, it's really not,

01:39:19 ◼   ► it's we architectural stuff and environments can be rendered

01:39:24 ◼   ► so well with pretty democratized tools these days.

01:39:28 ◼   ► I even like,

01:39:31 ◼   ► I did a pro like a design project in my backyard with a landscape company and

01:39:36 ◼   ► they used some software to rent to pre-visualize what this design would look like

01:39:40 ◼   ► in my, in my backyard and with like off the shelf tools.

01:39:43 ◼   ► And it looked so astoundingly real like photo real with lens flares and

01:39:48 ◼   ► everything. So, I mean,

01:39:49 ◼   ► there's a part of me that kind of wants to believe that this is how they did it

01:39:53 ◼   ► or at least part of it with this keynote. And if they didn't do it this time,

01:39:57 ◼   ► then certainly they will in the future.

01:39:59 ◼   ► Or certainly like a lot of us in production will be doing stuff like that.

01:40:02 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:40:04 ◼   ► I think when you and I first started texting about it,

01:40:06 ◼   ► we were specifically wondering if the displays, the big, you know,

01:40:11 ◼   ► mostly black slide displays behind the presenters were really

01:40:16 ◼   ► there. And, you know, again, like you said, they certainly could,

01:40:21 ◼   ► it would be well within their budget to do it and well within,

01:40:25 ◼   ► and if that was the answer, if they decided this is what we want it to look like,

01:40:30 ◼   ► what's the best way to make it look like it.

01:40:32 ◼   ► And the answer was to do it practically. Let's put a real screen there.

01:40:36 ◼   ► They would have done it. I mean, it's within certainly Apple would do it.

01:40:40 ◼   ► I mean, I've heard stories about the screen at the main screen in the Steve Jobs

01:40:45 ◼   ► theater where, you know, they had a fantastic screen and then they,

01:40:49 ◼   ► they replaced it. Not because there was something wrong with the other screen,

01:40:52 ◼   ► but that they already figured out that they could get a better screen.

01:40:56 ◼   ► And so they did like,

01:40:57 ◼   ► they couldn't stand not having the best screen they could possibly have.

01:41:00 ◼   ► So they replaced it and I'm sure, I guess somebody else could buy it.

01:41:03 ◼   ► I don't know. Or if it's just, are you in the market? Yeah.

01:41:07 ◼   ► Just for 120 or just slice it up into, you know,

01:41:11 ◼   ► like a hundred pieces and send it out to your, to the biggest supporters. Right.

01:41:15 ◼   ► But I think they give away, they had it, but they had that screen.

01:41:19 ◼   ► If it was practical, they had one behind Tim Cook on the stage,

01:41:23 ◼   ► which is permanent. So there's a real screen there. That's no problem.

01:41:25 ◼   ► But then they had one out in what I call the hands-on area,

01:41:29 ◼   ► which is underground,

01:41:31 ◼   ► which is where we first you pull out of the back of the theater.

01:41:34 ◼   ► And then there you're there in this big white circular room, um,

01:41:39 ◼   ► which is lit from above by, by some natural light.

01:41:43 ◼   ► And then they went up the stairs, you know,

01:41:46 ◼   ► with the gag where Craig runs up the stairs,

01:41:48 ◼   ► but he runs and that's where you're in what I, I,

01:41:51 ◼   ► I don't know if they have official names for these rooms.

01:41:53 ◼   ► I call that the atrium. It's like the lobby, you know, like they don't,

01:41:57 ◼   ► like when you go to an event there,

01:41:59 ◼   ► that area where you are surrounded by glass walls and you can

01:42:04 ◼   ► see the,

01:42:06 ◼   ► the actual park aspects of Apple's campus,

01:42:12 ◼   ► you know, the grass and the trees and everything,

01:42:15 ◼   ► that's just for mingling. Like there's nothing really there.

01:42:20 ◼   ► So would they set up a screen there too? Well, Apple might,

01:42:23 ◼   ► but once you put it in my head that maybe the screen wasn't there,

01:42:26 ◼   ► I was like, whoa. And then, then you get into, wait,

01:42:31 ◼   ► are they even there? Like maybe it's not just the screen,

01:42:34 ◼   ► but are the presenters actually there?

01:42:37 ◼   ► And it's not that the footage looks phony.

01:42:40 ◼   ► It's that it looks so glossy and well-produced that it's,

01:42:45 ◼   ► I don't know how you would tell.

01:42:48 ◼   ► Yeah. I don't know.

01:42:49 ◼   ► Like the giveaway for the screen being a replaced screen is probably just how

01:42:53 ◼   ► deep the blacks were behind him. Cause, cause you wouldn't,

01:42:56 ◼   ► you wouldn't really,

01:42:57 ◼   ► if you're photographing and exposing every other shadow the way they're exposed

01:43:01 ◼   ► in this, in the footage,

01:43:03 ◼   ► then you wouldn't be able to underexpose the screen that that deep.

01:43:07 ◼   ► Right.

01:43:09 ◼   ► That's probably why I would, I would vote for that.

01:43:11 ◼   ► The screen was all replaced and then they don't have to pre-program and live,

01:43:15 ◼   ► you know, live display everything timed to his performance.

01:43:19 ◼   ► Cause I don't think that that's in, that's definitely not any breezy task either,

01:43:24 ◼   ► is getting all of these non-professional actors to do that much dialogue.

01:43:28 ◼   ► Obviously they have teleprompters and stuff, but just the, the,

01:43:31 ◼   ► the inordinate number of takes that they must do to get each line in the

01:43:36 ◼   ► script for what is essentially a feature length presentation.

01:43:40 ◼   ► Well, and I know that even for a normal keynote,

01:43:45 ◼   ► that they rehearse a lot,

01:43:47 ◼   ► like that's another one of those very simple answers to a very seemingly very

01:43:51 ◼   ► complex question of how do they put out these polished keynotes and

01:43:56 ◼   ► it's rehearse, rehearse, rehearse.

01:43:58 ◼   ► But I can't help, but think that like,

01:44:02 ◼   ► however much time Craig Federighi spends preparing and rehearsing

01:44:07 ◼   ► for a regular WWDC keynote,

01:44:10 ◼   ► he'd spent more time on this because it,

01:44:14 ◼   ► it's just the production aspects of it are just on top of

01:44:19 ◼   ► however much content he's delivering, which is the same or more,

01:44:24 ◼   ► you know, the,

01:44:25 ◼   ► the actual mechanics of doing the production are more complicated.

01:44:29 ◼   ► But then how, you know, I guess on my list, I always come up with,

01:44:34 ◼   ► you know, and I don't know that again,

01:44:35 ◼   ► it falls under things they probably don't want to talk about,

01:44:38 ◼   ► but how in the world are you still doing your job?

01:44:41 ◼   ► Which I'm, I really have a good sense is probably keeps him busy as

01:44:47 ◼   ► the senior vice president of all software that they're producing.

01:44:52 ◼   ► Well, this is interesting. Yeah.

01:44:54 ◼   ► This is an interesting point because I don't know if you picked, if you,

01:44:57 ◼   ► if you had the same you know, feeling, but later on in the keynote,

01:45:02 ◼   ► when he gets to the Mac OS stuff, to me,

01:45:04 ◼   ► that's where he feels most comfortable.

01:45:06 ◼   ► And I don't know if that's because of the history,

01:45:09 ◼   ► his history of the actual, his actual day job.

01:45:12 ◼   ► You would know more about this than me, but,

01:45:16 ◼   ► everything leading up to that,

01:45:17 ◼   ► all the iOS stuff and the other platforms felt

01:45:22 ◼   ► more like showmanship to him. And then when, to me,

01:45:26 ◼   ► when it gets into the Mac OS,

01:45:27 ◼   ► that's where he feels like he's speaking his native language.

01:45:30 ◼   ► I don't know that I ever thought of that directly,

01:45:34 ◼   ► but I, I agree with you in thinking about it.

01:45:38 ◼   ► And I think you're exactly right.

01:45:40 ◼   ► Why is that he is a tremendous

01:45:44 ◼   ► stage presence is, you know, very, as his face is a handsome son of a bitch.

01:45:49 ◼   ► And he has a great voice and a very wide stance.

01:45:54 ◼   ► And he just is, you know,

01:45:56 ◼   ► he's very good on camera and he's good on stage,

01:45:58 ◼   ► but he's good on stage for someone who is

01:46:04 ◼   ► an incredibly competent and

01:46:07 ◼   ► believably, deeply knowledgeable

01:46:13 ◼   ► software executive. I mean, like, I mean,

01:46:16 ◼   ► and his multiple appearances on my show, I mean,

01:46:18 ◼   ► my favorite was the one a couple of years ago where we went into the

01:46:22 ◼   ► differential privacy aspects

01:46:27 ◼   ► and the explaining this sort of comp,

01:46:33 ◼   ► you know, the way that the encryption and can be used to

01:46:39 ◼   ► aggregate the collection of data for the good of all users.

01:46:43 ◼   ► But in a way that isn't just take our word for it privacy,

01:46:47 ◼   ► but it's like mathematically provable privacy that we,

01:46:51 ◼   ► we can't make a bug or have an error or have a, you know,

01:46:55 ◼   ► like Twitter have a controls panel where there's a switch that some doofus or,

01:47:00 ◼   ► you know, crook with a hundred dollar bill slipped in his pocket can uncheck to

01:47:05 ◼   ► reveal the address of the user who submitted this information,

01:47:09 ◼   ► thinking it was going to be submitted privately.

01:47:11 ◼   ► His explanation for how that worked is like, I can't believe, you know, that,

01:47:15 ◼   ► you know, that you just have this on the tip of your tip of your mind.

01:47:18 ◼   ► Yeah. Incredibly smart, dude. That was before they went,

01:47:21 ◼   ► they went to San Jose, right? That was when you're still in San Francisco.

01:47:24 ◼   ► I think that was the last one in San Francisco. Right.

01:47:27 ◼   ► And he really, I mean, he really knows it. I mean, it really, I mean,

01:47:31 ◼   ► it's like he knows this stuff and it's like all the way across the board of

01:47:35 ◼   ► everything Apple is doing and you know,

01:47:37 ◼   ► the graphics stuff and he can speak at length at all of that.

01:47:40 ◼   ► And yet he's got time to, to star in a movie.

01:47:44 ◼   ► Yeah. Well, I think that they all know, including all the, you know,

01:47:49 ◼   ► senior execs and everything, they all know that this is part of the job.

01:47:52 ◼   ► This is sort of what you sign up for when your Apple, um, leadership is,

01:47:57 ◼   ► that it's, you're, you're an evangelist and not, not just in a trade show,

01:48:02 ◼   ► kind of way, but really you rep in a, in a global way, you represent the,

01:48:06 ◼   ► the products you're working on to the world, which makes me,

01:48:10 ◼   ► I mean, obviously they're all working executives in,

01:48:14 ◼   ► in the technology industry,

01:48:16 ◼   ► so they can't be expected to be brilliant presenters.

01:48:21 ◼   ► I do wish that they would sort of shake up the cadence,

01:48:24 ◼   ► the Apple presentational cadence a little bit, um, uh,

01:48:28 ◼   ► and not feel the pressure to

01:48:33 ◼   ► maybe like reproduce or mimic the, you know, the standard,

01:48:39 ◼   ► if you did, does that make sense what I'm saying? That sort of like,

01:48:43 ◼   ► we can't wait to show you what we're working on and that's, you know,

01:48:49 ◼   ► FaceTime, you know, like that cadence that they all kind of like,

01:48:52 ◼   ► it's almost like in, in, um, they're doing it because they're,

01:48:56 ◼   ► they feel like that's the only solution, but there are, well,

01:49:01 ◼   ► first of all, going back to Steve and his presentational style was not that at

01:49:05 ◼   ► all. We, Claude and JP and I, uh,

01:49:09 ◼   ► who worked for me, we were just this last weekend, we, um,

01:49:14 ◼   ► we watched, uh, the G4 Cube, um, keynote,

01:49:19 ◼   ► and we're just marveling at, uh,

01:49:22 ◼   ► how natural and unrehearsed and unscripted Steve

01:49:27 ◼   ► seems. And we were just, you know, just kind of like all of our,

01:49:32 ◼   ► our hearts sort of, you know, like kind of exploded a little bit when we watched

01:49:37 ◼   ► that and just remembering where we were at the time. But,

01:49:39 ◼   ► but also like it was the antithesis of this extremely meticulously

01:49:44 ◼   ► composed, um, uh, you know,

01:49:46 ◼   ► just style of speech and presentation that they have now.

01:49:49 ◼   ► But there are a few, I don't know, I took note of a few of the outliers, um,

01:49:54 ◼   ► in the, in the whole cast of characters that presented and like,

01:50:00 ◼   ► um, I don't know if you remembered, um, Vera Carr, but she's the, uh,

01:50:04 ◼   ► the health software manager. She's, she's sort of in a yoga position.

01:50:08 ◼   ► Oh yes. On the floor. Yeah. She was awesome.

01:50:11 ◼   ► Like she just came off as very natural and looked and sounded great, um,

01:50:15 ◼   ► in her environment. And then, um, the guy in the home, in the living room too,

01:50:20 ◼   ► Yoc Kaysen, I think the home kit guy was awesome.

01:50:23 ◼   ► I, what I remember about Vera Carr was that she felt very

01:50:28 ◼   ► natural, but also it was more striking about that was that it also seemed like

01:50:32 ◼   ► she was in the most unnatural position of any of them. Right.

01:50:35 ◼   ► Yeah. Which is good, which is good. I mean, from a directorial standpoint,

01:50:40 ◼   ► sometimes sometimes that's what you do to shake somebody out of their

01:50:45 ◼   ► complacency.

01:50:46 ◼   ► Yeah, I do think,

01:50:49 ◼   ► and it is an interesting thing from a film school perspective of sort of,

01:50:55 ◼   ► uh, what's the word did the deconstruct deconstructing the,

01:51:00 ◼   ► the Apple keynote style that they went from the Steve notes to where they are

01:51:06 ◼   ► now without any sort of needle on a record scratching.

01:51:13 ◼   ► Here's where Steve left, right? Yeah. You know,

01:51:19 ◼   ► there was never any,

01:51:21 ◼   ► sort of, Oh, as soon as he left, they got different.

01:51:24 ◼   ► They evolved to this sort of platonic ideal of the modern post Steve jobs

01:51:30 ◼   ► keynote. Right. Um,

01:51:35 ◼   ► one of the ones that really sticks out to me in terms of like,

01:51:39 ◼   ► you know, and it's that whole slow boiling frog phenomenon,

01:51:45 ◼   ► which I whenever I mentioned is actually not true,

01:51:48 ◼   ► that if you're going to be a director,

01:51:49 ◼   ► and is actually not true, that if you put frogs in a pot and slowly boil it,

01:51:53 ◼   ► they will jump out. They're like, Oh shit.

01:51:56 ◼   ► It's just like when you're in a hot tub and it's like,

01:52:01 ◼   ► if somebody does have it too hot, it's like, you know, you're like, Hey,

01:52:04 ◼   ► turn that down. And then if nobody turns it down, you do get out, you know,

01:52:07 ◼   ► but it is in a useful analogy and people, you know what I'm talking about.

01:52:12 ◼   ► And I always, the thing I always bring it up with is whenever I try a new iPhone

01:52:16 ◼   ► and I, you know, like the, you know, idiot tech reviewer that I am,

01:52:21 ◼   ► I get to review one every year.

01:52:22 ◼   ► I never really noticed that the new ones faster until like 10 days after I start

01:52:28 ◼   ► using it and I put it down and go back to my year, one year old,

01:52:34 ◼   ► I've personal iPhone because I, you know, I've got the review one, you know,

01:52:39 ◼   ► 10 days before they come out. So I don't own a new one yet.

01:52:42 ◼   ► And I go back to my old one and then I'm like, Oh, this,

01:52:45 ◼   ► it's like a little slower. Like I can tell when I'm typing on the thumb keyboard,

01:52:49 ◼   ► you know, wow. You know, and every year it's the same.

01:52:52 ◼   ► And every year I can tell it's a little faster, but you know, five, six,

01:52:56 ◼   ► seven, eight years ago, it was even more noticeable year over year.

01:52:59 ◼   ► But it's always when you go back and I think when you go back to older

01:53:03 ◼   ► keynotes, you can see the difference a lot more than when,

01:53:05 ◼   ► as we go forward.

01:53:06 ◼   ► And the one that sticks out to me is the greatest keynote of all time.

01:53:11 ◼   ► The one that everybody always wanted, then it was happened.

01:53:15 ◼   ► And then everybody wants it to happen again,

01:53:17 ◼   ► which was the unveiling of the iPhone. Right.

01:53:20 ◼   ► Everybody always wanted a keynote where Apple,

01:53:23 ◼   ► it shows us something that seems not just too good to be true a little

01:53:28 ◼   ► bit, but like, this can't possibly be real.

01:53:31 ◼   ► People are passing out in the aisles like a, you know, you know,

01:53:35 ◼   ► preacher thing where they're taking demons out of you. People are fainting,

01:53:40 ◼   ► gasping, uh, you know, the Blackberry rivals hold a meeting the next day

01:53:46 ◼   ► and conclude that the whole thing, believe it or not,

01:53:49 ◼   ► must be a fraud because there's no way that they could be, they,

01:53:52 ◼   ► that this could be a real device, uh, that keynote.

01:53:56 ◼   ► But when you actually rewatch that whole keynote,

01:54:00 ◼   ► not just the clips of Steve jobs unveiling the phone,

01:54:03 ◼   ► but watch the whole thing it's paced so bizarrely by

01:54:08 ◼   ► modern standards.

01:54:09 ◼   ► He just comes out and like does like us do an update on iTunes and I forget what

01:54:14 ◼   ► it is first. I don't even remember, but it's like,

01:54:15 ◼   ► there's like 20 to 30 minutes of just like crazy,

01:54:20 ◼   ► just run of the mill stuff before he, well,

01:54:25 ◼   ► which, which were, which we had patients for back then. Right. You know,

01:54:29 ◼   ► which in the same way that, um,

01:54:32 ◼   ► a late night talk show could be Dick Cavett and like 15 second pauses in between

01:54:37 ◼   ► a question and an answer and, and people smoking cigarettes.

01:54:40 ◼   ► We just had patients in ways that we don't have patients these, these days.

01:54:44 ◼   ► And that's why this is kind of like modern day format for the keynote makes more

01:54:47 ◼   ► sense.

01:54:48 ◼   ► It does make more sense. And there's an absolute, if they had,

01:54:52 ◼   ► let's just say, you know, that they've got AR goggles and that they're,

01:54:57 ◼   ► they know it, they've, they're in the lab and the people work.

01:55:00 ◼   ► Maybe there's some of the same people even, right.

01:55:02 ◼   ► It hasn't been that long, same people.

01:55:04 ◼   ► And they've got that sense that this is, this is the iPhone again, right?

01:55:08 ◼   ► These goggles are way beyond what people are thinking. Um,

01:55:13 ◼   ► you know,

01:55:13 ◼   ► like people think you're just going to put glasses on and in the corner of your

01:55:16 ◼   ► eye, it'll tell you what the air temperature is, you know,

01:55:19 ◼   ► and if you get a text message, there's a notification at the top.

01:55:22 ◼   ► And that's what everybody thinks in the way that everybody thought in 2006,

01:55:26 ◼   ► that they were going to make an iPod that can make phone calls. Right.

01:55:31 ◼   ► And instead they had the iPhone,

01:55:34 ◼   ► maybe the goggles are that good. Yeah.

01:55:37 ◼   ► There is no way that they would announce that like they announced the iPhone.

01:55:41 ◼   ► It's it just,

01:55:43 ◼   ► it just would be such a totally different event. It would be,

01:55:48 ◼   ► it would be tasteful. So I was going to use the word bombastic,

01:55:53 ◼   ► and that's not right. Cause bombastic implies a sort of crassness,

01:55:57 ◼   ► but it would be, I don't know,

01:56:02 ◼   ► it would be dramatic in a way that this wasn't

01:56:07 ◼   ► dramatic. Like I just can't.

01:56:09 ◼   ► I think that Steve's Steve's Steve's gift was, I mean,

01:56:14 ◼   ► of many was to shape a narrative,

01:56:16 ◼   ► like to frame a piece of technology in a narrative

01:56:21 ◼   ► involving all of technology.

01:56:23 ◼   ► And I think that that's why the iPhone introduction made

01:56:27 ◼   ► such beautiful, um,

01:56:30 ◼   ► evolutionary sense in the way that it did. And you watch this keynote, you know,

01:56:34 ◼   ► I mean, obviously this is dub dub. This is,

01:56:36 ◼   ► this is not a product announcement type of a keynote, but

01:56:40 ◼   ► um, I feel like if they're, if they're honoring, um,

01:56:45 ◼   ► Steve and the story that is Apple,

01:56:48 ◼   ► then they're going to figure out how to frame the new device,

01:56:52 ◼   ► whatever it is in the context of an entire history of Apple and of

01:56:56 ◼   ► tech in general.

01:56:58 ◼   ► Yeah. I wonder if this

01:57:02 ◼   ► quarantine induced novel, new keynote might not,

01:57:09 ◼   ► I know a lot of people are wondering if,

01:57:11 ◼   ► if Apple liked it enough that maybe they're always going to do virtual WWDCs

01:57:16 ◼   ► again, quarantine or not.

01:57:19 ◼   ► And I can kind of see it from the, uh, you know,

01:57:23 ◼   ► I think the keynote, I don't,

01:57:25 ◼   ► I think that they like the crowd and they like doing it on stage.

01:57:29 ◼   ► Um, so I don't see them doing away with that for everything for the

01:57:35 ◼   ► actual conference for developers and the presentations.

01:57:40 ◼   ► I could see that. Um, I,

01:57:43 ◼   ► the sessions I've watched so far are so they're, they're always good.

01:57:47 ◼   ► And again, and, and it's always very cool because the people,

01:57:52 ◼   ► this is just, I mean, this is as long as there's been WWDC,

01:57:56 ◼   ► the people doing the presentations of the people responsible for the work,

01:57:59 ◼   ► right? Like they don't have like a presentation team and you know,

01:58:04 ◼   ► Joe and Kate from the presentation team are told, okay,

01:58:07 ◼   ► you're going to do the new, you know,

01:58:09 ◼   ► text editing for right to left languages, hired talent.

01:58:14 ◼   ► Right.

01:58:15 ◼   ► They're the actual engineers who worked on this new thing and it's

01:58:20 ◼   ► always very cool. And sometimes the enthusiasm really spills over,

01:58:25 ◼   ► and really helps polish over the fact that they're not professional presenters.

01:58:29 ◼   ► It's because, Hey, you know,

01:58:31 ◼   ► they've been working on this thing for three years and it's,

01:58:34 ◼   ► it wasn't even there,

01:58:36 ◼   ► even in their wildest dreams wasn't going to be in the keynote because it's

01:58:39 ◼   ► super technically nerdy type thing. Um, you know,

01:58:43 ◼   ► WWDC sessions are full of stuff like that,

01:58:46 ◼   ► but the people watching the session are self-selective.

01:58:50 ◼   ► The only people who are going to watch the session on a new right to left

01:58:54 ◼   ► language API, uh, or you know,

01:58:57 ◼   ► something that'll let you write Swift UI code that will run both on a watch and

01:59:02 ◼   ► on the phone, um, and on the iPod,

01:59:08 ◼   ► our iPad and on the Mac and Holy crap,

01:59:11 ◼   ► it's one UI system for all of that, blah, blah, blah.

01:59:13 ◼   ► The only people who are going to watch that are the people who want to use it.

01:59:16 ◼   ► You're right. That's, they're speaking to their people.

01:59:20 ◼   ► It's all very cool, but I think that letting them prerecorded,

01:59:24 ◼   ► you know,

01:59:25 ◼   ► and it would only be better without quarantine where they don't have to worry

01:59:29 ◼   ► about onset all of the precautions that have to be done.

01:59:33 ◼   ► It would be so much more comforting for them to have a normal set where people

01:59:38 ◼   ► can come up and, and fix their hair, you know, and, and just,

01:59:42 ◼   ► you know what I mean? Do you do that?

01:59:44 ◼   ► You see this a thousand times every single day that you're in production is

01:59:49 ◼   ► somebody will go up and say, Hey, you know what? His collar is not right.

01:59:53 ◼   ► And then it fixed the collar. Yeah. Get the hair. Yeah.

01:59:55 ◼   ► And you can't do that with the quarantine. Right. It's, or you gotta, you know,

01:59:58 ◼   ► no, we literally on our, on the thing we just shot,

02:00:01 ◼   ► which was our first thing back on a small set was we,

02:00:04 ◼   ► we couldn't have hair and makeup because that person would have to be too close

02:00:08 ◼   ► to people. Right. So it would only be better, but then it takes away.

02:00:12 ◼   ► The thing that was so palpable to me watching the sessions I've watched is that

02:00:15 ◼   ► the stage fright being in front of 500 live people in front of you,

02:00:20 ◼   ► or even if it's a smaller session, a hundred people, it's just people who,

02:00:23 ◼   ► I get nervous and I do talks every once in a while.

02:00:27 ◼   ► Somebody who's never spoken in front of 300 people before,

02:00:31 ◼   ► you're going to be nervous, right? It, that nerves is all out of there.

02:00:34 ◼   ► And I think that the sessions I've,

02:00:36 ◼   ► I hadn't seen anybody who thought otherwise every single comment I've seen on

02:00:40 ◼   ► the sessions themselves this year was that it was better and more palatable and

02:00:45 ◼   ► more enjoyable and more informative to watch.

02:00:48 ◼   ► And the other thing that they did, which was really awesome,

02:00:52 ◼   ► in the physical conference of WWDC there, it's like,

02:00:56 ◼   ► it's like scheduling TV.

02:00:58 ◼   ► You've got half hour blocks and you can have an hour session or a half hour

02:01:03 ◼   ► session,

02:01:03 ◼   ► but there's WWDC videos this year that are like 13 minutes because it's,

02:01:08 ◼   ► you have 13 minutes worth of stuff,

02:01:10 ◼   ► do a 13 minute video and there's no reason to pad it out to 30 or say,

02:01:15 ◼   ► we can't really do this at WWDC because it doesn't fill a 30 minute slot.

02:01:19 ◼   ► You know?

02:01:20 ◼   ► Yeah. Oh, that's so fascinating. I'm so glad it worked out. Yeah.

02:01:24 ◼   ► I love it. All right. Let me take one last break here.

02:01:28 ◼   ► Thank our good friends at Linode L I N O D E.

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02:01:36 ◼   ► but it's not. It's Linode because it's like a node that hosts Linux,

02:01:41 ◼   ► but I used to also think Linux was Linux.

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