The Talk Show

00:00:00 ◼   ► We don't have much to talk about,

00:00:01 ◼   ► just the whole year in review.

00:00:03 ◼   ► - Short show, like usual.

00:00:04 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:00:05 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:00:06 ◼   ► I predict it'll be shorter than usual

00:00:08 ◼   ► because we're focused.

00:00:10 ◼   ► Lean, mean, we have an outline.

00:00:12 ◼   ► We have a focus.

00:00:14 ◼   ► But I forget, is this the third year in a row,

00:00:16 ◼   ► fourth year in a row?

00:00:17 ◼   ► - Something like that, yeah.

00:00:18 ◼   ► - It's a tradition at this point, that's for sure.

00:00:21 ◼   ► But let's look back, Apple's 2020 year in review.

00:00:27 ◼   ► Before we do, let's talk about some current events,

00:00:31 ◼   ► just to get 'em out of the way.

00:00:32 ◼   ► We can't do this show without mentioning

00:00:34 ◼   ► this Apple car thing.

00:00:36 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:00:36 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:00:38 ◼   ► - Maybe some other stuff.

00:00:39 ◼   ► But anyway, what, two days ago, yesterday?

00:00:42 ◼   ► I have seriously, like one thing I have not anticipated

00:00:46 ◼   ► post-election is that the weird sense of time

00:00:49 ◼   ► is gonna get worse.

00:00:50 ◼   ► - Yeah, yes.

00:00:51 ◼   ► It's like that movie, that Christopher Nolan movie

00:00:56 ◼   ► where time gets slower and faster at the same time.

00:00:59 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:00:59 ◼   ► Not Inception, the other one.

00:01:01 ◼   ► - And not Tenet either.

00:01:03 ◼   ► - Interstellar, Interstellar.

00:01:04 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah.

00:01:05 ◼   ► Have you seen Tenet, by the way?

00:01:09 ◼   ► - I tried.

00:01:10 ◼   ► I have this thing with Christopher Nolan movies

00:01:12 ◼   ► where I love the first 80%

00:01:14 ◼   ► and then he just never lands it for me.

00:01:16 ◼   ► So my favorite one is Memento

00:01:17 ◼   ► because he does the ending at the beginning.

00:01:19 ◼   ► - Ah.

00:01:20 ◼   ► Yeah, but what about The Prestige?

00:01:22 ◼   ► Everybody loves The Prestige.

00:01:23 ◼   ► - Yes, yeah, The Prestige is,

00:01:25 ◼   ► it's more classical for him, I think.

00:01:27 ◼   ► He doesn't try to do the weird ending thing.

00:01:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, I enjoyed it.

00:01:31 ◼   ► My son and I watched it two nights ago.

00:01:33 ◼   ► It is interesting, it is so interesting.

00:01:35 ◼   ► I do this thing with movies

00:01:37 ◼   ► and I've gotten really good at it

00:01:39 ◼   ► and maybe it's just a good luck, I don't know.

00:01:41 ◼   ► But I've really tried to stay spoiler free.

00:01:44 ◼   ► I've largely stopped watching trailers, period,

00:01:47 ◼   ► because it's like the movie industry has gotten,

00:01:50 ◼   ► even for like good movies,

00:01:51 ◼   ► they spoil the whole movie in the trailer.

00:01:56 ◼   ► It's the worst trend.

00:01:57 ◼   ► I mean, they must have some kind of metrics

00:01:59 ◼   ► that show that it gets people

00:02:00 ◼   ► to rent the movies or whatever,

00:02:03 ◼   ► but trailers spoil everything, in my opinion.

00:02:06 ◼   ► So I try to--

00:02:07 ◼   ► - There's this huge Zemeckis thing where he,

00:02:08 ◼   ► I believe it was Zemeckis,

00:02:09 ◼   ► where he believed that he should show everything

00:02:11 ◼   ► in the trailer because people like eating McDonald's.

00:02:14 ◼   ► They want to know what they're getting

00:02:15 ◼   ► and I just find that totally opposite

00:02:18 ◼   ► of what I want in a movie.

00:02:20 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:02:22 ◼   ► - Some people must like it.

00:02:24 ◼   ► I hate it.

00:02:24 ◼   ► I'm like, "Oh, why would they show that?

00:02:26 ◼   ► "Oh, terrible."

00:02:27 ◼   ► - And it's worse for me because I'm a dummy.

00:02:29 ◼   ► So I can watch a trailer and I don't realize things,

00:02:31 ◼   ► but I watch it with my podcast partner, Georgia,

00:02:33 ◼   ► and she has one of those Sherlock Holmes Mind Palace things

00:02:36 ◼   ► where she's like, "Oh, they're wearing this different outfit

00:02:38 ◼   ► "in this part of the trailer, so this person lived,

00:02:39 ◼   ► "this person died, and they obviously committed this crime

00:02:41 ◼   ► "and then she can't watch the movie."

00:02:42 ◼   ► - Yep, exactly, exactly.

00:02:44 ◼   ► Oh, anyway, the neat things.

00:02:46 ◼   ► So I bookmark.

00:02:47 ◼   ► I'm like, oh, I run into somebody says,

00:02:49 ◼   ► "Here's a review of this movie I know I don't want to watch."

00:02:52 ◼   ► And so I bookmark it for the future,

00:02:54 ◼   ► and then after I watch the movie,

00:02:56 ◼   ► I may not even remember that I did,

00:02:58 ◼   ► but I'll go to PitBoard and see if I,

00:03:00 ◼   ► hey, did I have any bookmarks for Tenet?

00:03:02 ◼   ► Oh, here I did, yeah, and I read a couple reviews.

00:03:04 ◼   ► And it was funny because multiple reviews of Tenet,

00:03:08 ◼   ► which originally came out back in August

00:03:10 ◼   ► in a very poorly considered manner in theaters,

00:03:14 ◼   ► multiple reviewers said the same thing,

00:03:19 ◼   ► which was that this movie can't really be spoiled

00:03:22 ◼   ► by talking about the plot.

00:03:24 ◼   ► And I know that sounds crazy,

00:03:26 ◼   ► but if you've seen the movie, you'll agree.

00:03:28 ◼   ► And multiple reviewers said that.

00:03:30 ◼   ► So I'm not even that worried about spoiling anything

00:03:32 ◼   ► here talking about Tenet.

00:03:34 ◼   ► It is, and it is sort of a fascinating idea

00:03:37 ◼   ► that you can make a plotted movie with a plot,

00:03:40 ◼   ► and it really can't be spoiled.

00:03:42 ◼   ► I'm glad I watched it.

00:03:44 ◼   ► I'm glad Christopher Nolan is out there making movies.

00:03:47 ◼   ► - Same.

00:03:48 ◼   ► - It is frustrating, and it is,

00:03:51 ◼   ► my analogy to my son is that it's sort of like

00:03:56 ◼   ► a very talented, extremely talented movie maker

00:04:02 ◼   ► who's so good at the art of cinema

00:04:04 ◼   ► that he's made a movie about one plus one equals three.

00:04:07 ◼   ► And it's very convincing because he's so good at it,

00:04:11 ◼   ► but you know it's not right.

00:04:12 ◼   ► But you can sit there, if you'd sit there

00:04:15 ◼   ► and try to tie yourself up in knots thinking about

00:04:18 ◼   ► the time travel aspect of Tenet,

00:04:21 ◼   ► it's never gonna, he's so good that you think like,

00:04:25 ◼   ► oh, if I think about this hard enough,

00:04:27 ◼   ► or maybe if I get out of some pen and paper

00:04:30 ◼   ► and start drawing this, it'll add up.

00:04:33 ◼   ► And it's like, no, no, don't hurt your brain.

00:04:37 ◼   ► - Did you ever watch Pitch Meeting on Screen Rant?

00:04:39 ◼   ► - Yes, yes, that's a great--

00:04:41 ◼   ► - The Pitch Meeting for Tenet was fantastic.

00:04:43 ◼   ► I like it when he makes fun of movies I don't like,

00:04:44 ◼   ► but I like it even more when he makes fun of movies I do like.

00:04:46 ◼   ► - All right, I gotta write this down for the show notes.

00:04:48 ◼   ► Pitch Meeting Tenet, I'll bet that he did a great job.

00:04:52 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, I don't wanna spoil that for you,

00:04:53 ◼   ► but it's terrific.

00:04:55 ◼   ► - But I'm still glad I watched it, that's the thing.

00:04:57 ◼   ► And I get it why some people, I don't know that,

00:05:00 ◼   ► I haven't seen anybody say,

00:05:01 ◼   ► this is my favorite Christopher Nolan movie.

00:05:03 ◼   ► I haven't seen that.

00:05:04 ◼   ► Maybe there's somebody who thinks it.

00:05:06 ◼   ► I've seen some people who I think are sort of,

00:05:09 ◼   ► they're a little angry about the pretension of it,

00:05:12 ◼   ► and it's like, I'm okay with it

00:05:14 ◼   ► because it's the pretension,

00:05:16 ◼   ► he's not like submitting it to the Nobel Committee

00:05:19 ◼   ► in physics to try to act like it does add up.

00:05:22 ◼   ► He's not saying one plus one actually equals three.

00:05:25 ◼   ► He's just made this movie like,

00:05:26 ◼   ► what if one plus one did equal three?

00:05:29 ◼   ► And it's kind of a neat movie.

00:05:30 ◼   ► So anyway--

00:05:31 ◼   ► - My thing with Nolan is that he violates

00:05:32 ◼   ► one of my favorite rules of storytelling,

00:05:34 ◼   ► which is if you put a gun on the mantle in act two,

00:05:36 ◼   ► you gotta shoot somebody before act four starts.

00:05:39 ◼   ► And movies like Inception, they're folding cities in half,

00:05:42 ◼   ► and someone says, don't do that.

00:05:44 ◼   ► You'll attract negative attention.

00:05:45 ◼   ► And so I think they're setting this up,

00:05:46 ◼   ► almost like when they tell Neo,

00:05:49 ◼   ► you don't have to worry about dodging bullets in the future.

00:05:51 ◼   ► And then you get to the end and they're being attacked

00:05:53 ◼   ► and nobody ever fold,

00:05:54 ◼   ► and I've been waiting the whole movie

00:05:55 ◼   ► for them to start folding cities,

00:05:57 ◼   ► which is like The Matrix at the end

00:05:58 ◼   ► if Neo doesn't start catching bullets.

00:06:00 ◼   ► I just feel what happened at the end of the movie.

00:06:02 ◼   ► - Oh. (laughs)

00:06:05 ◼   ► Yeah, he does it.

00:06:06 ◼   ► - It's like, you didn't give me what I wanted.

00:06:08 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:06:09 ◼   ► Yeah, maybe.

00:06:10 ◼   ► Yeah, he's not, it's hard to say.

00:06:12 ◼   ► I'm glad he's out there, but you know.

00:06:13 ◼   ► - Me too, me too.

00:06:14 ◼   ► - Unsatisfying.

00:06:15 ◼   ► What I did afterwards is after watching,

00:06:19 ◼   ► as a palate cleanser for Tenet,

00:06:21 ◼   ► I watched Ocean's Eleven for like the 30th time.

00:06:26 ◼   ► Because in some ways,

00:06:29 ◼   ► that was the exact palate cleanser I needed,

00:06:32 ◼   ► where it's like, just give me something

00:06:33 ◼   ► where there's like some kind of complicated plot,

00:06:37 ◼   ► and it might be cockamamie and completely unrealistic,

00:06:40 ◼   ► but it does add up, right?

00:06:43 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:06:44 ◼   ► - You know.

00:06:45 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:06:46 ◼   ► I watched the McTiernan movies afterwards.

00:06:47 ◼   ► I watched Hunt for October and Die Hard

00:06:50 ◼   ► and Predator, I think.

00:06:51 ◼   ► Because those are all very like, this is what's happening,

00:06:54 ◼   ► I'm setting this up and I'm delivering it to you.

00:06:57 ◼   ► - Yeah, McTiernan, oh man,

00:06:59 ◼   ► you know how I feel about Die Hard.

00:07:00 ◼   ► - They're way too simple for today.

00:07:02 ◼   ► I think today they confuse sophistication with complexity,

00:07:04 ◼   ► which is a problem, but they're very simple movies,

00:07:07 ◼   ► but they really pay off.

00:07:08 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, and again, I'm gonna spoil it.

00:07:10 ◼   ► If you haven't watched Die Hard,

00:07:12 ◼   ► then you shouldn't be listening to the podcast.

00:07:13 ◼   ► - No.

00:07:14 ◼   ► - But like, one of the great Chekhov's guns

00:07:18 ◼   ► of movie history, which is the whole,

00:07:21 ◼   ► that's the whole principle, if you see the gun

00:07:23 ◼   ► on the mantle, it has to go off,

00:07:25 ◼   ► is the movie opens with John as a nervous flyer

00:07:30 ◼   ► and the guy says, "Ah, here's what you do.

00:07:34 ◼   ► "As soon as you get to where you're going,

00:07:36 ◼   ► "take your shoes off and let your toes feel the carpet."

00:07:39 ◼   ► Which doesn't even make sense, I've never heard that.

00:07:43 ◼   ► I don't think that would help,

00:07:44 ◼   ► 'cause it's not like you're on the airplane.

00:07:46 ◼   ► It's just an excuse to get him to take his shoes off,

00:07:48 ◼   ► but then it pays off.

00:07:50 ◼   ► It's like, wouldn't it be great if the protagonist

00:07:57 ◼   ► of the movie had to do the whole thing barefoot?

00:08:00 ◼   ► It'd be like, yeah, that'd be--

00:08:00 ◼   ► - And even like the watch, they set up the watch,

00:08:02 ◼   ► they set up every payoff they set up carefully

00:08:04 ◼   ► during the movie.

00:08:05 ◼   ► - You know the watch, there's a deleted scene for that.

00:08:08 ◼   ► Have you ever heard that?

00:08:10 ◼   ► - I think so, yeah.

00:08:11 ◼   ► Yeah, so there's a scene that they deleted

00:08:13 ◼   ► where the crew first, the grouper crew actually,

00:08:18 ◼   ► first gets in there and they're down in the basement

00:08:21 ◼   ► and they all have the same watch

00:08:23 ◼   ► and they're synchronizing their watches.

00:08:26 ◼   ► And they took it out because it was shot

00:08:31 ◼   ► in the parking lot underneath and when they shot it,

00:08:35 ◼   ► they hadn't yet figured out that the limo driver

00:08:38 ◼   ► was gonna stay down there.

00:08:40 ◼   ► And so it was like it introduced a minor continuity error

00:08:43 ◼   ► because later on they were like,

00:08:44 ◼   ► here, here's what we could do with the limo driver.

00:08:46 ◼   ► We could have the limo driver be underneath

00:08:48 ◼   ► in the parking lot all along.

00:08:50 ◼   ► And McTiernan was like, ah, that's brilliant.

00:08:52 ◼   ► But then he's like, ah, but what about that scene

00:08:54 ◼   ► we shot down there where there is no limo?

00:08:56 ◼   ► And they're like, ah, and they're like, well,

00:08:58 ◼   ► we could just, it's just synchronizing watches.

00:09:00 ◼   ► We could take it out.

00:09:01 ◼   ► And then the only thing that doesn't really add up afterwards

00:09:03 ◼   ► is the, hey, all these guys have the same watch,

00:09:06 ◼   ► but that would have had more of a payoff

00:09:08 ◼   ► if you've seen the deleted scene.

00:09:09 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:09:11 ◼   ► - Well, there we go, there's 15 minutes.

00:09:14 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:09:16 ◼   ► - We're going great.

00:09:18 ◼   ► - We're doing fantastic.

00:09:20 ◼   ► Apple Car.

00:09:21 ◼   ► So out of nowhere, Reuters yesterday.

00:09:25 ◼   ► - Well, it was before then.

00:09:26 ◼   ► So it was a couple days ago that,

00:09:28 ◼   ► I was, Economic Daily or something,

00:09:31 ◼   ► one of the Asian newspapers said that the Apple Car

00:09:33 ◼   ► was gonna come out in 2021 and nobody believed it.

00:09:37 ◼   ► And then Reuters followed up two days later saying,

00:09:40 ◼   ► it's 2024-ish.

00:09:41 ◼   ► - 20, I didn't see that there was one for 2021.

00:09:45 ◼   ► But so things that I know,

00:09:49 ◼   ► and I could say we collectively know,

00:09:51 ◼   ► we know that Project Titan is still a thing.

00:09:55 ◼   ► I don't even, I think that it's actually still called

00:09:57 ◼   ► Project Titan.

00:09:58 ◼   ► We know some of the people involved.

00:10:00 ◼   ► We know that Apple has a lot of people working on it.

00:10:06 ◼   ► - We know it has something to do with cars

00:10:09 ◼   ► and might just be autonomous driving systems, period.

00:10:12 ◼   ► And maybe they would work with a company.

00:10:15 ◼   ► Like maybe they would work with BMW or Toyota or Honda

00:10:19 ◼   ► or multiple, who knows.

00:10:21 ◼   ► Maybe they'll build their own car.

00:10:23 ◼   ► Maybe they're just building smarter Roombas

00:10:26 ◼   ► that will autonomously--

00:10:27 ◼   ► - Well, I think the first version,

00:10:28 ◼   ► like I think it's well known now that Johnny Ive

00:10:30 ◼   ► and the ID department made actual car designs

00:10:32 ◼   ► for the very first version under,

00:10:36 ◼   ► I'm blanking on his name before--

00:10:39 ◼   ► - Doug Field.

00:10:40 ◼   ► - No, before Doug Field,

00:10:41 ◼   ► Apple's Vice Senior Vice President of Hardware

00:10:43 ◼   ► that I, for some reason, embarrassingly,

00:10:45 ◼   ► the one that took over from Bob Mansfield

00:10:47 ◼   ► when Bob first left.

00:10:48 ◼   ► And I'm embarrassingly blanking on his name at the moment.

00:10:51 ◼   ► But he was running it and they had car designs

00:10:53 ◼   ► and they had a whole team ramp up.

00:10:55 ◼   ► And they took over a lot of guys from the iPhone team

00:10:58 ◼   ► and a lot of old iPhone engineers came back to it.

00:11:01 ◼   ► And then it moved over to Bob Mansfield

00:11:04 ◼   ► and they sort of started redoing everything.

00:11:06 ◼   ► And it sounded more abstract,

00:11:07 ◼   ► like it was doing a lot of computer vision

00:11:10 ◼   ► and environmental ingestion and AR and AI.

00:11:13 ◼   ► And now just before this report,

00:11:15 ◼   ► the story was that it got moved over to John G. and Andreas

00:11:19 ◼   ► machine learning artificial intelligence organization

00:11:22 ◼   ► and Mansfield was retired, retired again.

00:11:24 ◼   ► - Yeah. (laughs)

00:11:26 ◼   ► Well, we don't, you know,

00:11:28 ◼   ► I feel like now you're going into things we kinda know.

00:11:32 ◼   ► Right? - Yeah.

00:11:33 ◼   ► - We kinda know that there were prototypes

00:11:35 ◼   ► and how far along they were and there are rumors that,

00:11:38 ◼   ► - Dan Riccio, sorry, Dan Riccio.

00:11:43 ◼   ► - How much of it was going to be just a car

00:11:47 ◼   ► and how much was gonna be self-driving and what level

00:11:50 ◼   ► and when did they expect to ship?

00:11:51 ◼   ► And even if everything had gone exceedingly

00:11:55 ◼   ► according to plan, which obviously it didn't,

00:11:59 ◼   ► you know, it doesn't seem like it's possible at this point,

00:12:03 ◼   ► like that, let's say an initiative that was going strong

00:12:07 ◼   ► in 2015 or 2016 and maybe could have shipped a car by today,

00:12:12 ◼   ► by the end of 2020, that those cars would drive themselves.

00:12:16 ◼   ► That's, you know, my honest estimation,

00:12:19 ◼   ► and I know this is one of those like 640 kilobytes of memory

00:12:22 ◼   ► ought to be enough for everybody.

00:12:24 ◼   ► I don't think that you and I and most of the people

00:12:26 ◼   ► listening to this are ever gonna live to see

00:12:29 ◼   ► fully self-driving cars on the road.

00:12:32 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, the definition seems to keep moving

00:12:35 ◼   ► for what that is anyway.

00:12:36 ◼   ► - Right, I mean like, you know,

00:12:38 ◼   ► I'm talking full Knight Rider, talk to your Apple Watch car,

00:12:43 ◼   ► come get me, and the car just drives from wherever it is

00:12:46 ◼   ► and to wherever you are and,

00:12:48 ◼   ► - To Hopsing Laundry Mat,

00:12:49 ◼   ► - Right. - to your home after.

00:12:51 ◼   ► - Right, I mean, it's, you know,

00:12:53 ◼   ► I don't think we're gonna have it.

00:12:55 ◼   ► I'd love to see it happen, I don't think it will,

00:12:58 ◼   ► but anyway, it obviously wasn't gonna happen by now.

00:13:01 ◼   ► But anyway, the Reuters report says Apple's full steam ahead

00:13:04 ◼   ► that they're hoping to ship cars by 2024.

00:13:09 ◼   ► Maybe it'll be delayed 'til 2025,

00:13:11 ◼   ► and at this point, five, four, five years out,

00:13:14 ◼   ► it's like, yeah, no shit, it might be delayed to 2025.

00:13:18 ◼   ► Like if you have something that is like a thousand person,

00:13:23 ◼   ► I don't know if there's a thousand people working on

00:13:25 ◼   ► Project Titan, but maybe there are.

00:13:26 ◼   ► I know there's hundreds, you know,

00:13:28 ◼   ► but if you have hundreds of top engineers and AI talent

00:13:31 ◼   ► and mechanical engineers making the actual car,

00:13:35 ◼   ► working on something that optimistically you think

00:13:38 ◼   ► is still four years out, yeah, it might be five years out.

00:13:42 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:13:43 ◼   ► That line in the report just made me laugh.

00:13:45 ◼   ► - And what's like the 1.0 anyway?

00:13:47 ◼   ► Like what are the features that qualify

00:13:49 ◼   ► the minimum delightful, like the delightful product

00:13:51 ◼   ► that you're gonna ship?

00:13:52 ◼   ► - Right, but man, oh man, did that make people's ears

00:13:55 ◼   ► perk up, you know, 'cause it's like, ooh.

00:13:59 ◼   ► - Apple stock up, Tesla stock down,

00:14:00 ◼   ► I mean, that's how it works.

00:14:02 ◼   ► - Did that really happen?

00:14:03 ◼   ► I didn't even, but see, that's just crazy.

00:14:06 ◼   ► And it really is.

00:14:07 ◼   ► You know, I've been on the CNBC a couple times

00:14:12 ◼   ► the last couple months.

00:14:14 ◼   ► They asked if I would be on today to talk about the car,

00:14:16 ◼   ► and I had to politely decline,

00:14:19 ◼   ► 'cause what the hell am I gonna say?

00:14:22 ◼   ► I'm like, I love, I wouldn't say I love it,

00:14:25 ◼   ► but I enjoy stretching myself on these CNBC appearances

00:14:29 ◼   ► to talk about things Apple has announced and are out,

00:14:33 ◼   ► and to give my thoughts and help people think about them

00:14:36 ◼   ► the way I think they should.

00:14:38 ◼   ► I don't mind coming on a podcast like this

00:14:41 ◼   ► and spouting off about this car I know nothing about,

00:14:43 ◼   ► but there is no way in hell that I wanna go on TV

00:14:47 ◼   ► and talk about a car that I don't know anything about,

00:14:51 ◼   ► because of exactly what you just had.

00:14:53 ◼   ► I don't wanna play any role in Apple stock going up

00:14:57 ◼   ► or Tesla stock going down or any of that nonsense.

00:15:00 ◼   ► I wanna stay as far away from that as possible,

00:15:03 ◼   ► 'cause nobody knows.

00:15:05 ◼   ► I feel like, who knows?

00:15:08 ◼   ► Why would this report come out now?

00:15:11 ◼   ► I have no idea, but it was so strange to me, timing-wise.

00:15:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, especially Reuters, because that's not,

00:15:17 ◼   ► like that's not one of the usual rumor or leak channels.

00:15:20 ◼   ► That's, it's not even one of the business publications.

00:15:23 ◼   ► Like it wasn't a Bloomberg story.

00:15:24 ◼   ► It wasn't a Wall Street Journal story.

00:15:26 ◼   ► Reuters seems very specific.

00:15:28 ◼   ► - Yeah, and then you, right before,

00:15:30 ◼   ► it's a good thing we delayed recording until now,

00:15:33 ◼   ► but it looks like three hours ago,

00:15:35 ◼   ► Elon Musk tantalizing tweet says,

00:15:38 ◼   ► "During the darkest days of the Model 3 program,

00:15:41 ◼   ► "I reached out to Tim Cook to discuss the possibility

00:15:44 ◼   ► "of Apple acquiring Tesla for 1/10 of our current value.

00:15:48 ◼   ► "He refused to take the meeting."

00:15:50 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:15:51 ◼   ► - And that's the whole, that's the whole tweet.

00:15:53 ◼   ► - Well, it was a response.

00:15:54 ◼   ► So the person who was responding to you

00:15:55 ◼   ► posted some pictures from the Reuters article,

00:15:57 ◼   ► and the Reuters article was playing up

00:15:58 ◼   ► some revolutionary battery technology from Apple

00:16:00 ◼   ► that I think if anybody took two minutes to research it,

00:16:03 ◼   ► would show that it wasn't revolutionary battery technology,

00:16:05 ◼   ► at least not as described,

00:16:07 ◼   ► and that seemed to trigger Elon Musk a little bit,

00:16:09 ◼   ► 'cause he's saying, "We've been using these batteries

00:16:11 ◼   ► "for years on our mid-range cars."

00:16:13 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:16:14 ◼   ► - But it's another one of those, like,

00:16:18 ◼   ► I mean, Twitter is exceedingly good

00:16:20 ◼   ► at a Fermat's Last Theorem type tweet.

00:16:24 ◼   ► Like, that tweet demands so much more attention.

00:16:29 ◼   ► Really?

00:16:31 ◼   ► Like, did you really get in contact with Tim Cook?

00:16:33 ◼   ► Did he really not take the meeting?

00:16:35 ◼   ► - And I forget who pointed it out.

00:16:36 ◼   ► It might have been Neil Seibart that said

00:16:38 ◼   ► that this would have been last year, or 2018 or 2019,

00:16:43 ◼   ► when Project Titan was well underway already,

00:16:45 ◼   ► and Tesla doesn't seem to have any problems

00:16:48 ◼   ► that Apple would have been able to fix.

00:16:50 ◼   ► - It's one of those somewhere in the 999 nos

00:16:55 ◼   ► for every yes, right, is that Apple is not

00:17:00 ◼   ► a Berkshire Hathaway-style conglomerate that just owns,

00:17:05 ◼   ► like, in some sense, you can say,

00:17:08 ◼   ► well, clearly this was a mistake if it's all true, right?

00:17:12 ◼   ► And again, that's a big if, with Elon Musk

00:17:14 ◼   ► as the, let's say, unreliable narrator.

00:17:18 ◼   ► Not that he's a liar, just that you can't necessarily

00:17:22 ◼   ► take it as, there's a lot of ways to be

00:17:25 ◼   ► an unreliable narrator that don't involve lying.

00:17:27 ◼   ► - You don't know what his agenda is with a tweet.

00:17:29 ◼   ► - Right, and how sharp his memory is, you know.

00:17:33 ◼   ► - And it's also, it's his opinion of what happened.

00:17:37 ◼   ► - But if you just took that as the,

00:17:39 ◼   ► if you said, okay, if you looked into it

00:17:40 ◼   ► and it was all verifiably true, you could say,

00:17:43 ◼   ► well, then that's clearly a mistake.

00:17:44 ◼   ► Apple should have acquired Tesla for 1/10 the price

00:17:48 ◼   ► and held it until now, and now they could,

00:17:50 ◼   ► if they wanted to, spin it off and make 10 times.

00:17:55 ◼   ► But that's not Apple's business, right?

00:17:58 ◼   ► And, you know, and there was, you know,

00:18:03 ◼   ► a lot of people threw that out as a, like,

00:18:08 ◼   ► what was, I guess it was 2013 was sort of the low point

00:18:12 ◼   ► of the post Steve Jobs, hey, this is,

00:18:15 ◼   ► Tim Cook isn't cutting it, they need a product person,

00:18:17 ◼   ► they should acquire Tesla and let Elon Musk

00:18:20 ◼   ► take over the company, you know.

00:18:22 ◼   ► And in very broad strokes, you can see the thinking,

00:18:27 ◼   ► you know, that Elon Musk and Steve Jobs are similar,

00:18:30 ◼   ► you know, they're founder/visionary people,

00:18:35 ◼   ► and you could say, well, Apple needs that sort of person,

00:18:38 ◼   ► but it's very different when you're not the founder

00:18:41 ◼   ► of the company, right, you know, like, you know,

00:18:43 ◼   ► Thomas Edison was one of those people.

00:18:45 ◼   ► I don't know that if you could reanimate Thomas Edison

00:18:48 ◼   ► from the grave that he would be a great CEO of Apple, right?

00:18:52 ◼   ► - And also, Steve Jobs, you know, he was maniacally focused

00:18:56 ◼   ► where Elon Musk has, Elon Musk is focused on Mars,

00:18:58 ◼   ► but that constitutes 10 different companies for him.

00:19:01 ◼   ► - Right, Elon, my point with these founders,

00:19:05 ◼   ► these unique visionaries, is that they all are

00:19:10 ◼   ► inherently the chiefs of the companies

00:19:14 ◼   ► they were meant to be the chiefs of

00:19:15 ◼   ► because that's why they created them, right?

00:19:18 ◼   ► - Yes, and the culture around them.

00:19:19 ◼   ► - Right, Jeff Bezos is obviously tremendously successful,

00:19:24 ◼   ► and Amazon is, for all of it, the things you complain about,

00:19:29 ◼   ► you know, there's certainly many things

00:19:31 ◼   ► you can take issue with, or even Zuckerberg, right,

00:19:34 ◼   ► a company that we can all agree there are a lot of things

00:19:36 ◼   ► we can complain about with Facebook.

00:19:39 ◼   ► Neither one of them would be good at all

00:19:42 ◼   ► as being the CEO of Apple, or of the other company, right?

00:19:45 ◼   ► You wouldn't want--

00:19:46 ◼   ► - Both of them have tried to make phones

00:19:47 ◼   ► with disastrous results over the years.

00:19:49 ◼   ► - Right, like, you know, I don't think any of these CEOs

00:19:53 ◼   ► would be good at taking over the other's company,

00:19:55 ◼   ► except maybe for Cook, who is not a founder, right?

00:20:00 ◼   ► Cook would be the one who you could say,

00:20:02 ◼   ► well, if he wanted to be the CEO of Amazon,

00:20:04 ◼   ► he'd probably be a lot better at being the CEO of Amazon

00:20:07 ◼   ► than Bezos would be as the CEO of Apple.

00:20:10 ◼   ► But they're just, you know, the companies are formed

00:20:12 ◼   ► in the creator's image, and Elon Musk is the CEO

00:20:16 ◼   ► of the companies he was meant to be in charge of, you know?

00:20:18 ◼   ► SpaceX is very Elon Musk-y.

00:20:21 ◼   ► - Yeah, and The Boring Company, and Tesla,

00:20:23 ◼   ► and Starlink is just so many,

00:20:26 ◼   ► but they all have that uniform goal.

00:20:28 ◼   ► And also, whenever I see this, I also wonder

00:20:30 ◼   ► what it would've been like if Steve Jobs

00:20:32 ◼   ► had a Twitter account.

00:20:33 ◼   ► - Oh, I don't think he ever would've been in,

00:20:37 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:20:38 ◼   ► It is an interesting, could he have gone--

00:20:42 ◼   ► - Sort of like midnight emailing Steve Jobs

00:20:44 ◼   ► had a Twitter account.

00:20:45 ◼   ► - Right, I don't know.

00:20:47 ◼   ► I mean, and Twitter was out by, you know, in 2006, 2007.

00:20:52 ◼   ► It just wasn't as much of a thing.

00:20:55 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:20:56 ◼   ► - I don't know, I don't see him ever getting into tweeting.

00:21:00 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:21:01 ◼   ► - I would see it more like, sort of like the way

00:21:03 ◼   ► Schiller and Cook tweet, you know,

00:21:06 ◼   ► and it's like when there's something new,

00:21:07 ◼   ► there's a tweet from the account.

00:21:09 ◼   ► And he might be interested enough to single,

00:21:11 ◼   ► you know, be the one who actually writes the tweet,

00:21:14 ◼   ► but it's not like, I wouldn't be like Elon Musk

00:21:17 ◼   ► making trouble in tweets.

00:21:19 ◼   ► - 'Cause back when I was on the other side of the fence,

00:21:21 ◼   ► like when I worked in marketing and we hired PR people,

00:21:23 ◼   ► one of our most stressful periods was whenever a CEO

00:21:26 ◼   ► got on an open mic.

00:21:27 ◼   ► That was just the potential for disaster.

00:21:29 ◼   ► And I remember like the, Eric Schmidt would do that,

00:21:31 ◼   ► and the co-CEOs of RIM would do that,

00:21:34 ◼   ► and he would just see the ghosting of the PR people

00:21:39 ◼   ► as they would try to stop it every time,

00:21:40 ◼   ► and it would go terribly every time.

00:21:43 ◼   ► And I don't know what happens at like Tesla or Facebook

00:21:45 ◼   ► when they let, you know, Elon or Mark on an open mic,

00:21:47 ◼   ► but Apple's got a much better apparatus for that.

00:21:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, they're much more disciplined.

00:21:53 ◼   ► That's very true. - Yes.

00:21:54 ◼   ► - Here, let me take a break before we go on

00:21:57 ◼   ► with the year in review and thank our first sponsor.

00:21:59 ◼   ► Let me, what a great company.

00:22:01 ◼   ► I love this app, Things.

00:22:03 ◼   ► T-H-I-N-G-S, Things.

00:22:06 ◼   ► The To Do Task Manager app that's been around now,

00:22:10 ◼   ► it's one of those apps that it's like,

00:22:12 ◼   ► I still think of it as a new app,

00:22:13 ◼   ► and it shows how old I'm getting maybe, 'cause it's not.

00:22:18 ◼   ► It's been around for a while.

00:22:19 ◼   ► Great, great app for all of Apple's platforms,

00:22:23 ◼   ► the Mac, for iOS, the phone, and iPad.

00:22:26 ◼   ► The idea behind Things, when you want to achieve a goal,

00:22:29 ◼   ► you gotta have a plan, and it is a great way

00:22:32 ◼   ► to organize it.

00:22:33 ◼   ► The idea is very simple.

00:22:35 ◼   ► They have projects.

00:22:36 ◼   ► You create projects for your goals.

00:22:38 ◼   ► You add steps in a project to help you reach your goal,

00:22:42 ◼   ► and you can schedule those tasks

00:22:45 ◼   ► for when you want to work on them

00:22:46 ◼   ► or when you need to work on them.

00:22:48 ◼   ► And then every morning when you wake up,

00:22:50 ◼   ► Things already has a list of to dos for the day.

00:22:53 ◼   ► You can just look right at today.

00:22:55 ◼   ► It tells you, based on everything you've already put

00:22:58 ◼   ► into Things, what you need to do today.

00:23:01 ◼   ► You can just spend a few minutes reviewing that list.

00:23:03 ◼   ► You can drag those to dos in the order you want to do them,

00:23:07 ◼   ► which to me is like, oh, that is like the one thing I need

00:23:11 ◼   ► in any to do type organization app

00:23:15 ◼   ► that I want to even try to use.

00:23:18 ◼   ► If I can't just drag them to reorder them,

00:23:20 ◼   ► I'm already like, ah, I'm out, 'cause that's how I think.

00:23:24 ◼   ► Things lets you do that,

00:23:25 ◼   ► and then you just get on with your day,

00:23:26 ◼   ► and it doesn't matter what device you're on.

00:23:28 ◼   ► Everything syncs through the cloud,

00:23:30 ◼   ► so whether you are on your Mac,

00:23:32 ◼   ► whether you're on your phone, you're on an iPad,

00:23:35 ◼   ► it's all there, and Things is beautiful,

00:23:39 ◼   ► and they have always integrated with the system

00:23:43 ◼   ► in a very cohesive way,

00:23:44 ◼   ► so like when stuff like Notification Center

00:23:48 ◼   ► and widgets and stuff like that,

00:23:52 ◼   ► it's like they're always right on top of it

00:23:54 ◼   ► as dedicated, focused.

00:23:56 ◼   ► Like the Apple platform isn't just one of the targets

00:24:00 ◼   ► for the Things system.

00:24:01 ◼   ► They are Apple developers, true and true.

00:24:04 ◼   ► That's the only place where Things exists,

00:24:05 ◼   ► and so they embrace all that stuff when it's new.

00:24:09 ◼   ► It is just a great app.

00:24:10 ◼   ► So what do you do to get Things to try it?

00:24:13 ◼   ► Download a free trial for your Mac,

00:24:16 ◼   ► fully native on the Apple M1 Macs, of course,

00:24:20 ◼   ► because like I said, they stay up to date

00:24:22 ◼   ► with all of the latest Apple technology

00:24:25 ◼   ► at culturedcode.com/things.

00:24:27 ◼   ► Just download it to your Mac, totally free to try,

00:24:30 ◼   ► great place to start, or go to the App Store

00:24:34 ◼   ► and just search for Things.

00:24:36 ◼   ► Could not be easier, T-H-I-N-G-S on the App Store,

00:24:40 ◼   ► and you will find Things.

00:24:43 ◼   ► There you go.

00:24:44 ◼   ► My thanks to Culturedcode for sponsoring the show

00:24:46 ◼   ► to promote Things, their terrific app.

00:24:49 ◼   ► All right, before we go to the year in review,

00:24:57 ◼   ► the other thing we should probably talk about

00:24:59 ◼   ► over the last week is the is Chrome bad?

00:25:03 ◼   ► - Yeah. (laughing)

00:25:05 ◼   ► - Our friend, the great Lauren Brikter surfaced.

00:25:09 ◼   ► And now Lauren Brikter, everybody has to introduce him

00:25:12 ◼   ► as creator of Tweety, Letterpress, the great app.

00:25:17 ◼   ► - He wrote the GL stack for the original iPhone,

00:25:19 ◼   ► as far as I can recall.

00:25:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, the literal, truly invented Polder refresh

00:25:24 ◼   ► as a mechanism, which is one of those things now

00:25:27 ◼   ► that is so part of the oxygen of touch-based systems

00:25:30 ◼   ► that it's hard to believe it had to be invented,

00:25:33 ◼   ► and it wasn't there from the beginning.

00:25:35 ◼   ► - He wrote UIKit for the Mac before Apple did,

00:25:38 ◼   ► and I believe he's probably written UIKit for OpenGL,

00:25:41 ◼   ► sorry, for WebGL already, knowing him.

00:25:43 ◼   ► - Well, he wrote a website called chromisbad.com,

00:25:47 ◼   ► and it got a lot of attention.

00:25:49 ◼   ► And it was funny because I wouldn't think

00:25:52 ◼   ► that Lauren's accomplishments are from that long ago

00:25:55 ◼   ► that people wouldn't remember,

00:25:56 ◼   ► but when it hit Hacker News, people were like,

00:25:57 ◼   ► "Who is this guy?" (laughing)

00:25:59 ◼   ► - Yeah. (laughing)

00:26:00 ◼   ► It's like when Tweety came out,

00:26:01 ◼   ► and people were like, "Who could write an app like this?

00:26:03 ◼   ► "Who is this person?" (laughing)

00:26:05 ◼   ► - But the gist of it was that Lauren had seen

00:26:08 ◼   ► a couple of Macs, like his wife's MacBook Pro

00:26:11 ◼   ► and some other Mac in their household

00:26:13 ◼   ► that had been having very strange performance problems

00:26:16 ◼   ► where everything was slow, scrolling was slow,

00:26:18 ◼   ► typing was slow, and nothing out of the ordinary

00:26:21 ◼   ► was listed as consuming resources in activity monitor.

00:26:25 ◼   ► It's just that one of the ways it would manifest

00:26:28 ◼   ► was that the Windows Server, which is part of the system,

00:26:33 ◼   ► would be taking up excessive CPU.

00:26:36 ◼   ► But there wasn't some app that you could say,

00:26:38 ◼   ► "Oh, and it's this part of Chrome."

00:26:41 ◼   ► Long story short, he deleted Chrome,

00:26:44 ◼   ► deleting all traces of Chrome, restarted,

00:26:48 ◼   ► and this fixed both of his machines.

00:26:51 ◼   ► He made this website, said, "I don't know what it's doing.

00:26:55 ◼   ► "Something that Chrome installs in the background

00:26:58 ◼   ► "is doing something, I don't know what it is,

00:27:01 ◼   ► "but it doesn't show up in activity monitor,

00:27:03 ◼   ► "and when you do these steps to delete

00:27:06 ◼   ► "all traces of Chrome and use a different browser,

00:27:10 ◼   ► "the problems go away."

00:27:12 ◼   ► And an awful lot of people are like,

00:27:16 ◼   ► "Holy crap, this fixed my Mac."

00:27:18 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:27:19 ◼   ► - Including you, right?

00:27:21 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, me, Ben Thompson, your partner on dithering.

00:27:25 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:27:26 ◼   ► - Several people who are super smart.

00:27:27 ◼   ► And the thing was that Lauren suggested,

00:27:30 ◼   ► Google has this thing called Keystone,

00:27:31 ◼   ► which is their updater that originally came out

00:27:33 ◼   ► with Google Earth, and like 11 years ago,

00:27:35 ◼   ► Wired saw it and called it evil.

00:27:37 ◼   ► And they won't use the system updater,

00:27:39 ◼   ► they won't use Sparkle, they just have to do their own thing

00:27:42 ◼   ► because they want to continuously update Chrome

00:27:44 ◼   ► in the background.

00:27:45 ◼   ► And Lauren's theory was that Keystone

00:27:47 ◼   ► would try to start up, have a problem,

00:27:49 ◼   ► the process would never spawn an activity monitor,

00:27:52 ◼   ► but it would just churn Windows Server,

00:27:54 ◼   ► it would just thrash it until everything else stopped.

00:27:56 ◼   ► And then if you'd go in and not just delete Chrome,

00:27:58 ◼   ► but go through all your library files

00:28:01 ◼   ► and delete anything with Keystone in it,

00:28:03 ◼   ► this would stop happening.

00:28:04 ◼   ► And to their credit, the Chrome team

00:28:06 ◼   ► and the Chromium team jumped on this immediately,

00:28:08 ◼   ► they said they'd never heard of it,

00:28:09 ◼   ► but they're gonna look into it,

00:28:11 ◼   ► and they have a bug filed now,

00:28:12 ◼   ► and they're asking people for help and for documentation

00:28:15 ◼   ► and for use, like for test cases and all that stuff.

00:28:18 ◼   ► But it fixed my problem.

00:28:20 ◼   ► I work on Embargo the same way you do,

00:28:21 ◼   ► and I would have this problem,

00:28:23 ◼   ► Windows Server would ramp up and I wouldn't be able

00:28:25 ◼   ► to get Final Cut to let me finish editing my videos,

00:28:28 ◼   ► and it was incredibly stressful,

00:28:29 ◼   ► I wanted to throw my computer.

00:28:31 ◼   ► And I have not had that problem since.

00:28:33 ◼   ► Even uploading my videos,

00:28:35 ◼   ► like I know this is a complete post hoc ergo

00:28:37 ◼   ► propter hoc fallacy, but I used to have like failures

00:28:40 ◼   ► three or four times after uploading videos,

00:28:42 ◼   ► and I haven't had a single one yet.

00:28:44 ◼   ► So it really is night and day.

00:28:47 ◼   ► - I don't wanna go full John Suricusa rant here,

00:28:50 ◼   ► but he did it so beautifully on ATP recently,

00:28:54 ◼   ► but it's like this whole thing,

00:28:55 ◼   ► but yet it's so unsatisfying,

00:28:57 ◼   ► 'cause we don't have a, oh, here's what's going on, right?

00:29:02 ◼   ► And we should.

00:29:08 ◼   ► I'm kind of shocked, and I haven't really written about it

00:29:11 ◼   ► on Daring Fireball, because my first thought

00:29:13 ◼   ► when the thing broke was, well, this isn't right.

00:29:17 ◼   ► And like, Lauren has since adjusted the text

00:29:21 ◼   ► of the Chrome is Bad webpage to--

00:29:23 ◼   ► - He was super angry when he wrote it.

00:29:25 ◼   ► - He was, and he had a thing that alleged

00:29:27 ◼   ► that the keystone was hiding itself from Activity Monitor,

00:29:32 ◼   ► which clearly-- - They called it malware.

00:29:35 ◼   ► - Well, there it's a little bit more of a judgment call,

00:29:38 ◼   ► but the hiding itself from Activity Monitor

00:29:41 ◼   ► is a serious allegation,

00:29:44 ◼   ► because it would require deliberate malfeasance

00:29:49 ◼   ► on the Chrome team's part to hide it,

00:29:52 ◼   ► and it implicitly alleges

00:29:55 ◼   ► that there's a gaping security hole in Mac OS

00:29:59 ◼   ► that allows for a background utility to hide itself.

00:30:05 ◼   ► - Well, I understand, because it would never have surfaced,

00:30:07 ◼   ► like it was thrashing Windows Server so badly

00:30:09 ◼   ► it never showed up.

00:30:10 ◼   ► If that wasn't a problem, it would have shown up

00:30:12 ◼   ► and he would have seen it, but he never saw it

00:30:13 ◼   ► because of the problem.

00:30:14 ◼   ► - Yeah, I don't think he lied,

00:30:15 ◼   ► and I don't think he, maybe it was a little sloppy,

00:30:20 ◼   ► but he didn't lie.

00:30:21 ◼   ► It's that he was trying to, what he was trying to say

00:30:24 ◼   ► is what we've just said on this show, me and you,

00:30:26 ◼   ► is that it's not that it hid itself in that malware sense.

00:30:30 ◼   ► It doesn't show up in Activity Monitor.

00:30:35 ◼   ► So hide was the wrong verb, to be sure.

00:30:37 ◼   ► But what's weird about this is that we,

00:30:40 ◼   ► clearly something is going on.

00:30:43 ◼   ► There is, something is going on here.

00:30:46 ◼   ► There's way too many people who have just erased

00:30:50 ◼   ► all traces of Chrome and had very similar problems vanish.

00:30:55 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:30:56 ◼   ► - You know, like Ben Thompson, really,

00:30:59 ◼   ► he spent months where he was dying

00:31:02 ◼   ► because he just was like, I should just,

00:31:03 ◼   ► he really would have bought a new computer,

00:31:06 ◼   ► but didn't only because he knew the M1 Macs were coming out,

00:31:10 ◼   ► and so it wasn't a good time to buy a computer,

00:31:11 ◼   ► and he chalked it up to Catalina.

00:31:13 ◼   ► But here we are weeks later,

00:31:15 ◼   ► and still nobody has put a finger on what it is.

00:31:18 ◼   ► But it seems like too many people have had,

00:31:22 ◼   ► it's so unsatisfying.

00:31:24 ◼   ► And I'm very surprised with the number of,

00:31:29 ◼   ► it seems prevalent, and clearly this is the thing

00:31:32 ◼   ► that didn't affect everybody, right?

00:31:35 ◼   ► And I think that's, you know, that should go without saying.

00:31:38 ◼   ► If every single person with Chrome on their Mac

00:31:40 ◼   ► had this problem, the Chrome team itself would have it,

00:31:44 ◼   ► and they'd fix it.

00:31:44 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:31:45 ◼   ► Well, that's the thing about, like,

00:31:46 ◼   ► modern software is so complicated

00:31:48 ◼   ► and depends so much on initial conditions,

00:31:50 ◼   ► settings, other programs you have installed.

00:31:52 ◼   ► Like this could be a pure Chromium issue,

00:31:54 ◼   ► Chrome issue, Keystone issue.

00:31:55 ◼   ► It could involve certain versions of macOS,

00:31:57 ◼   ► certain other utilities, or systems that you have,

00:32:00 ◼   ► or sorry, or tasks that you have running.

00:32:02 ◼   ► It could be a big complicated mess,

00:32:04 ◼   ► and just removing Chrome removes a little,

00:32:07 ◼   ► one part of that enough that everything starts moving again.

00:32:09 ◼   ► And that's really hard to fix.

00:32:11 ◼   ► But to Lauren's, one of Lauren's original points

00:32:14 ◼   ► is that Chrome doesn't have to update this way.

00:32:16 ◼   ► Google chooses to have it update this way,

00:32:18 ◼   ► but they could be using a standard updater

00:32:20 ◼   ► that allows you to consent to updates,

00:32:23 ◼   ► because this doesn't even ask your permission

00:32:25 ◼   ► to update Chrome.

00:32:26 ◼   ► It just does it in the background,

00:32:27 ◼   ► which is a service to some people,

00:32:28 ◼   ► but is anathema to other people.

00:32:30 ◼   ► - That to me is, that's the, me, my as yet unwritten

00:32:35 ◼   ► take on doing Fireball, is that the problem here isn't,

00:32:39 ◼   ► well, I would love to know what the actual

00:32:42 ◼   ► technical problem is, and hopefully there is one,

00:32:44 ◼   ► and we'll get to the bottom of it.

00:32:46 ◼   ► Well, there obviously is a problem.

00:32:50 ◼   ► And whether it's actually Chrome's fault,

00:32:52 ◼   ► or whether it could be that Chrome is only doing things

00:32:55 ◼   ► that they technically shouldn't cause this problem,

00:32:58 ◼   ► and the bug is in Windows Server itself,

00:33:02 ◼   ► getting tickled in a certain way that triggers this bug,

00:33:06 ◼   ► it could be that the bug is Apple's,

00:33:08 ◼   ► and it is in Windows Server,

00:33:10 ◼   ► and hopefully we'll figure out what that is.

00:33:12 ◼   ► Somebody's gotta figure it out, this is maddening.

00:33:14 ◼   ► Even though I'm personally not affected by it,

00:33:16 ◼   ► I'm like, huh, I've got Chrome,

00:33:18 ◼   ► and I'm sure most people who have Chrome haven't seen it.

00:33:21 ◼   ► - And I want to use Chrome, to be clear,

00:33:22 ◼   ► there's so many websites that work best with Chrome,

00:33:25 ◼   ► it would be better for me if I could use it.

00:33:27 ◼   ► - But this wouldn't be an issue if there is fault,

00:33:32 ◼   ► there is with certainty fault on Chrome's part,

00:33:35 ◼   ► and that's that their software update system

00:33:38 ◼   ► is, in my opinion, by design, disrespectful.

00:33:43 ◼   ► It's not the way things work on the Mac.

00:33:46 ◼   ► Even Apple's own software, like,

00:33:48 ◼   ► and as much as people want to,

00:33:50 ◼   ► some people want to say that Apple is sort of

00:33:52 ◼   ► like authoritarian, that they dictate to people,

00:33:57 ◼   ► that people are resistant to get into the Apple ecosystem

00:34:00 ◼   ► because Apple tells you how to do everything,

00:34:02 ◼   ► and they want you to update everything, and blah, blah, blah.

00:34:05 ◼   ► And it's like, Apple is actually extremely respectful

00:34:08 ◼   ► of your computer being yours,

00:34:11 ◼   ► and almost nothing that they do is mandatory.

00:34:17 ◼   ► I mean, there might be some very rarely invoked,

00:34:22 ◼   ► I mean, like, maybe once ever security things

00:34:25 ◼   ► that they can do remotely, you know,

00:34:28 ◼   ► like if they detect malware, they can push certain things

00:34:32 ◼   ► to stop a malware infection from spreading further,

00:34:39 ◼   ► but they almost never do that.

00:34:40 ◼   ► Like, OS updates, you have control over them,

00:34:44 ◼   ► and they do steer you when you set up a new device

00:34:48 ◼   ► through a process that encourages you

00:34:51 ◼   ► to turn on automatic updates,

00:34:53 ◼   ► and they do have automatic updates for iOS,

00:34:57 ◼   ► and for watchOS, and even MacOS,

00:34:59 ◼   ► that if you do allow it to happen,

00:35:02 ◼   ► and they do encourage you to turn it on,

00:35:04 ◼   ► tries to do things in an intelligent way

00:35:07 ◼   ► where like your phone will say,

00:35:08 ◼   ► okay, iOS 14.1 is out, and Apple has pushed it,

00:35:14 ◼   ► and you've got automatic updates on.

00:35:16 ◼   ► It'll download it while it's on WiFi during the day,

00:35:20 ◼   ► and will install itself and restart overnight

00:35:23 ◼   ► at like four in the morning,

00:35:25 ◼   ► so that you're never interrupted,

00:35:26 ◼   ► and you wake up, and your phone will say,

00:35:28 ◼   ► you're now running iOS 14, welcome to iOS 14.

00:35:32 ◼   ► But it's also very easy.

00:35:35 ◼   ► You don't have to like dig into the command line

00:35:38 ◼   ► and type a defaults thing to turn it off.

00:35:41 ◼   ► Like it's a nice, friendlier, big blue button

00:35:46 ◼   ► that says turn allow auto updates,

00:35:49 ◼   ► and it's sort of a less friendly not now underneath

00:35:54 ◼   ► to say not now, I'll do it manually.

00:35:57 ◼   ► But it's not hidden, right?

00:35:59 ◼   ► - Well, even on my Mac,

00:35:59 ◼   ► it's been trying to install Big Sur for a month,

00:36:01 ◼   ► and I just don't let it.

00:36:03 ◼   ► It needs me to push certain buttons to do the auto update.

00:36:06 ◼   ► It's downloaded it.

00:36:06 ◼   ► It's already, it keeps popping up saying,

00:36:08 ◼   ► hey, you have an update.

00:36:10 ◼   ► I ignore it, and I'm fine.

00:36:11 ◼   ► I'm not upgrading this machine.

00:36:12 ◼   ► It's this, and in fact, my, hey, this is an older machine.

00:36:16 ◼   ► I should be, I'm gonna wait a couple of months

00:36:18 ◼   ► before I update it, if ever.

00:36:20 ◼   ► Turns out that these old 2014 MacBook Pros

00:36:24 ◼   ► actually had a problem with Big Sur

00:36:26 ◼   ► where it was bricking them.

00:36:27 ◼   ► Like it wasn't even like, it was like,

00:36:29 ◼   ► you have to like take it in to get service to get out of it.

00:36:31 ◼   ► And it's like, well, that's why I don't update automatically.

00:36:34 ◼   ► So the only hitch is I do have a red,

00:36:37 ◼   ► I have a red badge for software updates.

00:36:40 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:36:41 ◼   ► - That's it.

00:36:43 ◼   ► But otherwise, I don't have to update it, you know?

00:36:46 ◼   ► And most Mac apps don't update automatically

00:36:51 ◼   ► in the background when the app's not running.

00:36:54 ◼   ► The app is running when you launch it

00:36:56 ◼   ► and you double click it,

00:36:57 ◼   ► and that's when most third party apps

00:36:59 ◼   ► that you don't get through the App Store update.

00:37:03 ◼   ► And they, you know, a lot of third party Mac apps

00:37:05 ◼   ► use the same framework called Sparkle.

00:37:07 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:37:08 ◼   ► - Everybody listening to this podcast has almost certainly

00:37:11 ◼   ► seen a Sparkle app.

00:37:13 ◼   ► It's, you know, and it just, there's an update available.

00:37:17 ◼   ► Do you wanna download it now?

00:37:18 ◼   ► You download it now, and then it downloads

00:37:20 ◼   ► and you click install, and then the app quits

00:37:23 ◼   ► and it launches itself again, and you've got the new version.

00:37:26 ◼   ► And it's all under your control.

00:37:27 ◼   ► And if you don't want it, you could not do it.

00:37:30 ◼   ► And you probably have a preference to say don't even check.

00:37:34 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:37:35 ◼   ► - And if you do use the App Store,

00:37:36 ◼   ► you can turn off auto updates in the App Store too

00:37:39 ◼   ► and install those manually, which is what I do

00:37:41 ◼   ► because I don't want my apps to install.

00:37:43 ◼   ► I'm volunteering to give myself the chore

00:37:47 ◼   ► of purposefully looking.

00:37:49 ◼   ► And that is the Macintosh way,

00:37:53 ◼   ► and that is inherited by iOS.

00:37:56 ◼   ► It's also the iOS way.

00:37:58 ◼   ► It should be, and I mean this in a sort of ethical sense,

00:38:03 ◼   ► it should be up to the user whether and when

00:38:07 ◼   ► they're updating and what the app is doing

00:38:10 ◼   ► in the background.

00:38:11 ◼   ► Like the flip side of it too is you should be in charge,

00:38:14 ◼   ► you should be in control of when your apps update

00:38:17 ◼   ► if you want to.

00:38:18 ◼   ► And on the flip side is when you drag,

00:38:21 ◼   ► when you're like I don't want this app anymore,

00:38:23 ◼   ► and you drag it to the trash on the Mac

00:38:26 ◼   ► or delete it from your home screen on iOS,

00:38:30 ◼   ► you should know that there's nothing left behind

00:38:33 ◼   ► that is doing anything.

00:38:34 ◼   ► Like are there preference files and stuff like that?

00:38:37 ◼   ► Well in some ways that's actually a feature

00:38:38 ◼   ► that those get left behind.

00:38:40 ◼   ► So if you reinstall it, your data is still there.

00:38:44 ◼   ► But in terms of the actual software that runs,

00:38:47 ◼   ► it shouldn't be there.

00:38:49 ◼   ► There should be nothing left behind.

00:38:51 ◼   ► And the way that Chrome is designed

00:38:53 ◼   ► where it installs like little invisible background agents

00:38:57 ◼   ► outside your applications folder and sets launch daemons

00:39:02 ◼   ► so that when you restart it runs,

00:39:05 ◼   ► you can delete chrome.app,

00:39:07 ◼   ► but when you restart your computer,

00:39:09 ◼   ► it's still running the software updater in background

00:39:13 ◼   ► once every 3,000 seconds or something like that.

00:39:16 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:39:17 ◼   ► - That to me is wrong, it's wrong design,

00:39:22 ◼   ► and it's disrespectful and presumptuous.

00:39:25 ◼   ► It is them saying, it's the Chrome team saying,

00:39:28 ◼   ► "We know better than you how your Chrome should update.

00:39:33 ◼   ► "You're better off, we know you're better off

00:39:37 ◼   ► "always having your Chrome up to date,

00:39:40 ◼   ► "and so we're going to install this for you

00:39:42 ◼   ► "and have it happen automatically."

00:39:44 ◼   ► And if they didn't have that design,

00:39:46 ◼   ► no one would be throwing shade at them

00:39:48 ◼   ► for this Chrome is bad scandal.

00:39:51 ◼   ► - And I know some people immediately will say,

00:39:52 ◼   ► "Well Apple doesn't give you an on/off switch

00:39:53 ◼   ► "on your AirPods Max, so Apple's doing the same thing."

00:39:57 ◼   ► And I think the difference is just the intention.

00:40:00 ◼   ► Apple knows that for a lot of people,

00:40:02 ◼   ► these are a wireless product,

00:40:03 ◼   ► and if you forget to turn them off,

00:40:04 ◼   ► you'll drain your battery, it's a bad experience.

00:40:07 ◼   ► So they'd rather just use the accelerometer

00:40:08 ◼   ► to power them down for you,

00:40:10 ◼   ► and then when you put them back on, they just work.

00:40:12 ◼   ► So to me, it's not the system per se,

00:40:15 ◼   ► it's the intention and the consideration

00:40:17 ◼   ► behind it that matters.

00:40:19 ◼   ► - Yeah, so that's my take,

00:40:21 ◼   ► is that they should not have this design

00:40:23 ◼   ► for software update on the Mac.

00:40:24 ◼   ► I don't think they're going to reconsider,

00:40:28 ◼   ► but it's never made me comfortable.

00:40:31 ◼   ► I don't like it, and I also think

00:40:33 ◼   ► that they should document it,

00:40:34 ◼   ► if they're going to go this route.

00:40:36 ◼   ► They've decided purposefully,

00:40:39 ◼   ► it's not like Google is some small, tiny upstart

00:40:42 ◼   ► that doesn't have the resources to document how it works.

00:40:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's open source on Windows, right?

00:40:47 ◼   ► It's fully transparent on Windows, but not on Mac.

00:40:49 ◼   ► - Right, and there are other apps,

00:40:51 ◼   ► and let me just say this before I forget,

00:40:53 ◼   ► 'cause I want to mention it.

00:40:55 ◼   ► So just to name one friend of the show,

00:40:57 ◼   ► our good friends at Rogue Amoeba,

00:41:00 ◼   ► who make audio software for the Mac,

00:41:02 ◼   ► everything from Audio Hijacked to Piezo to Sound Source.

00:41:07 ◼   ► Their software, which does very complex,

00:41:12 ◼   ► at the high end, like with Audio Hijack,

00:41:14 ◼   ► needs stuff that runs outside.

00:41:21 ◼   ► It can't just be done as a simple app,

00:41:23 ◼   ► to do the sort of audio processing

00:41:25 ◼   ► where you're grabbing audio from another application

00:41:27 ◼   ► and filtering it into this.

00:41:29 ◼   ► Like the whole point of the app

00:41:30 ◼   ► is that they're doing things that are outside

00:41:34 ◼   ► the capabilities of a simple app that you double click.

00:41:39 ◼   ► And so they have very copious instructions and installers

00:41:42 ◼   ► to help you do this as best they can

00:41:45 ◼   ► to make it as friction-free as possible.

00:41:47 ◼   ► - And they are so considerate, their installers.

00:41:49 ◼   ► I was gonna bring them up

00:41:50 ◼   ► because they are just above and beyond.

00:41:52 ◼   ► They've thought through every sort of convenience

00:41:54 ◼   ► that you could imagine for those installers.

00:41:55 ◼   ► - Right, so they need to have an installer

00:41:59 ◼   ► and they need to be running something

00:42:01 ◼   ► in addition to a double clickable app.

00:42:04 ◼   ► And they explain it all.

00:42:06 ◼   ► They make it as easy as possible.

00:42:08 ◼   ► They tell you what they're doing.

00:42:10 ◼   ► They tell you what they've done.

00:42:11 ◼   ► They tell you what needs to be updated,

00:42:13 ◼   ► when it needs to be updated.

00:42:16 ◼   ► And if you ever decide, I'm out, I don't want this anymore,

00:42:19 ◼   ► they make it completely easy to uninstall all of it.

00:42:23 ◼   ► And then it's like they were never even there.

00:42:26 ◼   ► And Chrome doesn't need to be running

00:42:31 ◼   ► in the background like that.

00:42:32 ◼   ► It doesn't need to have launch agents

00:42:34 ◼   ► and they don't document it

00:42:35 ◼   ► and they don't make it easy to uninstall it.

00:42:38 ◼   ► Very disrespectful.

00:42:40 ◼   ► Anyway, you're in review.

00:42:44 ◼   ► Here we go.

00:42:45 ◼   ► - What a year.

00:42:49 ◼   ► I was looking back, so I made an outline.

00:42:51 ◼   ► And the funny part is, the pre-pandemic part of 2020,

00:42:56 ◼   ► Apple did nothing.

00:42:58 ◼   ► I was like, so--

00:43:00 ◼   ► - I mean, they did stuff,

00:43:01 ◼   ► but there was no consumer-- - Right.

00:43:03 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:43:05 ◼   ► So I do see, what did happen in that?

00:43:08 ◼   ► So January 'til the beginning of March,

00:43:11 ◼   ► I forgot about Richard Plepler coming from HBO.

00:43:15 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:43:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, I guess that's interesting.

00:43:20 ◼   ► And it does sort of tie in to,

00:43:23 ◼   ► I know Ben and I have talked about this

00:43:24 ◼   ► on Dithering quite a bit.

00:43:26 ◼   ► And MG Siegler, one of my highlights of the year

00:43:30 ◼   ► on this podcast was MG's idea that Apple TV+

00:43:35 ◼   ► is the new HBO, which is like, oh, come on, that's too.

00:43:38 ◼   ► And it's like, wait, maybe.

00:43:40 ◼   ► Like, it actually kind of is.

00:43:42 ◼   ► I'm a fan of Apple TV+,

00:43:46 ◼   ► but even for me, that was a bit too far.

00:43:48 ◼   ► And then I was like, no, now that I think about it,

00:43:50 ◼   ► I think maybe.

00:43:52 ◼   ► 'Cause it's both the fact that Apple TV+

00:43:54 ◼   ► is a little more careful, and it's like,

00:43:55 ◼   ► we're not gonna have the most shows,

00:43:57 ◼   ► but we're gonna try for the best shows.

00:43:59 ◼   ► And combined with Time Warner doing everything

00:44:02 ◼   ► in their power to dilute the HBO brand.

00:44:06 ◼   ► So maybe.

00:44:07 ◼   ► - Christina Warren, who's been on the show before,

00:44:11 ◼   ► brilliant, also said it's like NBC at its heights.

00:44:13 ◼   ► And they have the comedies,

00:44:15 ◼   ► but they also have the dramas,

00:44:17 ◼   ► and they have the edgier stuff like LA Law.

00:44:19 ◼   ► It's almost like a classic TV channel program.

00:44:22 ◼   ► - Maybe, yeah, I don't know.

00:44:23 ◼   ► But really, there wasn't much going on,

00:44:26 ◼   ► nothing consumer-facing.

00:44:28 ◼   ► And then I recall, I forget if it was in March

00:44:34 ◼   ► or if it was the end of February,

00:44:36 ◼   ► but I had Federico Vittucci on the show,

00:44:38 ◼   ► and it was when Italy was like the hotspot

00:44:42 ◼   ► in outside China in the world.

00:44:45 ◼   ► And I don't regret it.

00:44:49 ◼   ► It's not like I'm embarrassed by my take,

00:44:51 ◼   ► but it was very decidedly,

00:44:54 ◼   ► hey, how weird is it that Italy got hit hard

00:44:57 ◼   ► by this bug like this?

00:44:58 ◼   ► Good luck, I hope everything works out for everybody.

00:45:01 ◼   ► But it was definitely an assumption

00:45:05 ◼   ► that did not hold up very well,

00:45:06 ◼   ► that Italy was an outlier,

00:45:09 ◼   ► and did not take long for that to be shown

00:45:14 ◼   ► as a pretty bad assumption.

00:45:18 ◼   ► Like you've noted here that in that time period,

00:45:22 ◼   ► Apple's ended trips to China and started closing stores.

00:45:25 ◼   ► I forget, when did they start closing stores

00:45:27 ◼   ► because of COVID?

00:45:29 ◼   ► - I think it was starting in February

00:45:30 ◼   ► and then moving into March.

00:45:32 ◼   ► And I know Michael Stiebler on 9to5Mac

00:45:34 ◼   ► has been really good at pointing this out,

00:45:36 ◼   ► but Apple has one of the best COVID response teams,

00:45:40 ◼   ► I think, anywhere.

00:45:41 ◼   ► You can almost always see by the Apple Store closings

00:45:43 ◼   ► what the actual cities should be doing and aren't doing,

00:45:46 ◼   ► because they open up and close down on really good data

00:45:49 ◼   ► with really good timing.

00:45:51 ◼   ► And I think we should all just be following his tracker

00:45:53 ◼   ► because it would give us much better information

00:45:55 ◼   ► than any government has been giving us.

00:45:56 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I think it's as simple

00:46:00 ◼   ► as that they are striking the very correct balance

00:46:05 ◼   ► between, yes, we would like to be open

00:46:10 ◼   ► because we would like to be selling stuff

00:46:12 ◼   ► and we would like for our employees to be doing their thing

00:46:17 ◼   ► and we want our customers.

00:46:19 ◼   ► Everybody's happy when we're selling stuff if it's safe,

00:46:23 ◼   ► but if it's not safe, we don't want anybody

00:46:25 ◼   ► doing anything risky that they shouldn't do.

00:46:32 ◼   ► What is the correct balance between wanting to be open

00:46:36 ◼   ► but also wanting to do the right thing?

00:46:38 ◼   ► And I think Apple has sort of struck it.

00:46:40 ◼   ► I think Josh Centers at Tidbits has called it,

00:46:43 ◼   ► he's talked about that too,

00:46:45 ◼   ► that it's sort of like the Apple Store index,

00:46:47 ◼   ► that where Apple stores are open is a really good indication

00:46:52 ◼   ► of where things are spiraling out of control.

00:46:54 ◼   ► - Yes, yeah.

00:46:56 ◼   ► - In hindsight, for the year,

00:46:59 ◼   ► like ways that this year went off the rails,

00:47:02 ◼   ► it didn't take too long into the end of April

00:47:06 ◼   ► where before it started sinking in

00:47:08 ◼   ► that this might be the whole year.

00:47:10 ◼   ► I mean, but I didn't anticipate,

00:47:15 ◼   ► even if that was the case,

00:47:18 ◼   ► if this whole thing had gone like it did really badly,

00:47:23 ◼   ► that there would be so much back and forth, right?

00:47:27 ◼   ► And if we just take Apple stores as the index,

00:47:29 ◼   ► that they'd be opening and then closing

00:47:32 ◼   ► and then opening and closing

00:47:34 ◼   ► and waves spreading around the country

00:47:38 ◼   ► and around the world and North America,

00:47:40 ◼   ► it just didn't anticipate,

00:47:43 ◼   ► I really just did not anticipate how it would ebb and flow.

00:47:47 ◼   ► - Yeah, well, I think the culture clash

00:47:50 ◼   ► with a lot of Western countries was not anticipated.

00:47:53 ◼   ► They just the way that we would handle it.

00:47:55 ◼   ► I think a lot of people just assumed

00:47:57 ◼   ► that we would be the best in the world

00:47:59 ◼   ► at handling everything and it would not be a problem

00:48:01 ◼   ► and we would be helping those poor other countries

00:48:04 ◼   ► get through their troubles

00:48:05 ◼   ► and it just turned out completely opposite.

00:48:07 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's really strange, but it was--

00:48:10 ◼   ► - Like we were anticipating a March Apple event.

00:48:12 ◼   ► I think all of us thought that there would be,

00:48:15 ◼   ► as usual, a March Apple event.

00:48:17 ◼   ► We'd all go to Cupertino or wherever they chose to hold it

00:48:20 ◼   ► and we would see a bunch of products and announcements

00:48:22 ◼   ► and it would be business as usual for the year.

00:48:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, and well, and the other thing too,

00:48:26 ◼   ► they clearly affected Apple.

00:48:29 ◼   ► I mean, they've said this.

00:48:30 ◼   ► We don't have to be insiders to know it.

00:48:32 ◼   ► They've talked about it publicly,

00:48:35 ◼   ► but the way that it hit China,

00:48:38 ◼   ► it literally, like an engine seasoning up,

00:48:45 ◼   ► it just totally shut down the entire supply chain.

00:48:48 ◼   ► I mean, just shut it down.

00:48:50 ◼   ► - And also their ability to go there

00:48:51 ◼   ► 'cause usually they are doing pre-production.

00:48:53 ◼   ► They work well ahead of a lot of products

00:48:55 ◼   ► and they're doing pre-production

00:48:56 ◼   ► and that involves a ton of Apple people going to China,

00:48:58 ◼   ► being there on the floor, checking prototypes,

00:49:00 ◼   ► doing feedback, monitoring quality,

00:49:02 ◼   ► doing, it's a very, well, we talked about this before too,

00:49:05 ◼   ► right, like Apple books out entire airline flights

00:49:08 ◼   ► routinely to the biggest customers

00:49:09 ◼   ► and that all just stopped.

00:49:10 ◼   ► - Right, right, like however many employees

00:49:14 ◼   ► in normal times are shuttling back and forth

00:49:17 ◼   ► between SFO and China, it's, you know,

00:49:21 ◼   ► it was that they, after standing order

00:49:25 ◼   ► of 50 business class seats a day or something like that.

00:49:28 ◼   ► - Yeah, it was some ridiculous number that you doubled it

00:49:31 ◼   ► up still, like ridiculous number.

00:49:32 ◼   ► - Right, and it was like on United or something,

00:49:35 ◼   ► I think it was United, but, and then somebody--

00:49:38 ◼   ► - Yeah, someone photographed it at one point

00:49:41 ◼   ► and posted it and Apple had it taken down.

00:49:42 ◼   ► - Right, well it was like, no, it was, yeah,

00:49:43 ◼   ► it was like a United internal sales presentation.

00:49:46 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:49:47 ◼   ► - Some poor soul at United didn't realize

00:49:52 ◼   ► that Apple considered that confidential.

00:49:54 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:49:56 ◼   ► - But like somebody pointed out to me, they're like,

00:49:58 ◼   ► in addition to like, when I expressed my,

00:50:01 ◼   ► okay, I guess I believe it, but if you do the math,

00:50:03 ◼   ► that's just an enormous number of seats in the plane.

00:50:08 ◼   ► And yes, they don't necessarily aren't doing it every day

00:50:11 ◼   ► and if they have all 50 and they're like,

00:50:12 ◼   ► well, we only have 10 people going to China today,

00:50:15 ◼   ► they, I guess, release those seats

00:50:17 ◼   ► and, you know, the United customers can,

00:50:20 ◼   ► maybe you get, you're very lucky,

00:50:22 ◼   ► you get a free upgrade from coach to business class,

00:50:26 ◼   ► you know, for a trans-Pacific flight,

00:50:29 ◼   ► I mean, what a delight that would be.

00:50:31 ◼   ► But so it doesn't mean they have 50 people doing it

00:50:34 ◼   ► every day, but they're certainly close enough

00:50:36 ◼   ► that they keep the standing order.

00:50:37 ◼   ► But the thing that was the real eye-opener for me

00:50:39 ◼   ► was that somebody pointed out, like, that's just United.

00:50:42 ◼   ► Like, you know, the people who, you know,

00:50:44 ◼   ► some people prefer it 'cause they wanna get the points,

00:50:46 ◼   ► but other people who, you know, prefer comfort

00:50:50 ◼   ► fly other airlines.

00:50:52 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:50:53 ◼   ► - Like the Asian airlines and you get a better,

00:50:56 ◼   ► you get a better experience.

00:50:57 ◼   ► They're like, and, you know, and they have the discretion

00:51:00 ◼   ► not to have leaked how many seats Apple has on those points.

00:51:03 ◼   ► Well, anyway, all those flights weren't even taking off,

00:51:07 ◼   ► let alone being filled with Apple employees.

00:51:10 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:51:11 ◼   ► - And in hindsight, so again, speaking now,

00:51:14 ◼   ► me and you speaking in December, Apple made it work.

00:51:18 ◼   ► I mean, this is, has been, I don't know what, if anything,

00:51:23 ◼   ► in theory, Apple wanted to ship in 2020 and didn't,

00:51:27 ◼   ► but, you know, like, let's say like this,

00:51:29 ◼   ► the tiles project, right?

00:51:30 ◼   ► Like, I don't know, there's a couple of,

00:51:32 ◼   ► what else is rumored?

00:51:34 ◼   ► The tiles thing and the headphones.

00:51:36 ◼   ► - I mean, the AirPods Max were one of those things

00:51:38 ◼   ► we didn't think that they were gonna ship

00:51:39 ◼   ► and they still got them out. - They still got them out.

00:51:42 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:51:42 ◼   ► - Damn if they didn't make it work.

00:51:44 ◼   ► I mean, it's really, really quite remarkable, but.

00:51:48 ◼   ► - They updated almost everything.

00:51:51 ◼   ► What do you think the March event would have been?

00:51:53 ◼   ► So what they did is they had a remote press briefing

00:51:57 ◼   ► on March 17th and I don't think, I'm 99% sure,

00:52:02 ◼   ► I just looked at my notes before the show,

00:52:04 ◼   ► that this wasn't something, it was only press only

00:52:07 ◼   ► who got to watch it.

00:52:08 ◼   ► It wasn't streamed.

00:52:09 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:52:11 ◼   ► Yeah, they hadn't got that.

00:52:12 ◼   ► I think it would have been almost identical

00:52:14 ◼   ► to the 2016 March event where they announced the iPhone SE

00:52:17 ◼   ► and back then the 9.7 inch iPad Pro

00:52:19 ◼   ► and it would have just been the second iPhone SE

00:52:22 ◼   ► and the new A12Z iPad Pro.

00:52:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, so what they did announce on March 17th

00:52:26 ◼   ► was updated MacBook Airs where the real,

00:52:30 ◼   ► there was some kind of Intel 10th generation,

00:52:33 ◼   ► blah, blah, blah and it was like.

00:52:35 ◼   ► - Ice lake, yeah.

00:52:36 ◼   ► - But it was really, it gets the good keyboard

00:52:39 ◼   ► that had just come out a year ago,

00:52:41 ◼   ► as you and I speak right now,

00:52:43 ◼   ► a year ago in the 16 inch MacBook Pro.

00:52:46 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:52:47 ◼   ► - And it was like in March, they were like,

00:52:49 ◼   ► okay, you know the good keyboard,

00:52:50 ◼   ► now it's in the MacBook Air

00:52:52 ◼   ► and they could have stopped right there.

00:52:54 ◼   ► The iPad Pros got updated

00:52:57 ◼   ► which in one of the weirdest updates for the iPad ever,

00:53:02 ◼   ► right, 'cause it was like,

00:53:05 ◼   ► they've never done this before instead of,

00:53:07 ◼   ► they didn't go to it, they skipped the whole A13 generation

00:53:11 ◼   ► and went from the A12X to the A12Z

00:53:15 ◼   ► and the A12Z really was just enabling

00:53:19 ◼   ► the eighth GPU core, right?

00:53:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, it was higher bin

00:53:24 ◼   ► because their yields were good enough

00:53:25 ◼   ► that they didn't have to worry about

00:53:27 ◼   ► you know, the expense of those chips.

00:53:29 ◼   ► But it also, I wonder if they were just so busy with M1

00:53:33 ◼   ► and the A14 that they didn't have time

00:53:36 ◼   ► to make the A13X and they still wanted to get LIDAR

00:53:40 ◼   ► out on the market as early as possible.

00:53:42 ◼   ► - I guess that's the thinking.

00:53:44 ◼   ► If I had to guess as what my theory is,

00:53:48 ◼   ► is that yeah, that they,

00:53:50 ◼   ► the A12Z or X was so good

00:53:55 ◼   ► that they could easily not ship an A13X

00:53:59 ◼   ► and iPads, iPad Pros are, nobody's gonna say,

00:54:04 ◼   ► oh, this is starting to feel pokey.

00:54:06 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:54:07 ◼   ► - It was a simple, the move from the X to the Z

00:54:12 ◼   ► going from seven cores where if you take out your microscope

00:54:16 ◼   ► and look, there's eight cores, but only seven were enabled

00:54:18 ◼   ► was clearly a binning issue, right?

00:54:21 ◼   ► Where they just got better at making them

00:54:23 ◼   ► and like, yeah, we can just guarantee all eight of them

00:54:25 ◼   ► were are good to go.

00:54:27 ◼   ► And the real big hardware change

00:54:29 ◼   ► was going from a tiny little like old,

00:54:33 ◼   ► just single lens camera to a bigger square.

00:54:37 ◼   ► Okay, now it's a whole camera system with LIDAR.

00:54:42 ◼   ► Which again, why though?

00:54:44 ◼   ► Like that's my takeaway now lo these 10 months later

00:54:49 ◼   ► is why, why care about getting LIDAR out for the iPad Pro?

00:54:55 ◼   ► Like I still don't see what the advantage,

00:54:58 ◼   ► what the point of that was.

00:54:59 ◼   ► - I just think it's them,

00:55:02 ◼   ► 'cause it was gonna come to the iPhone

00:55:03 ◼   ► and it still is, you and I've heard rumors for years

00:55:05 ◼   ► about a much better camera app

00:55:07 ◼   ► that tied into the whole AR system

00:55:09 ◼   ► and it still hasn't come out.

00:55:10 ◼   ► And that was the rumor,

00:55:12 ◼   ► because the iPad Pro was so strange for other reasons,

00:55:15 ◼   ► like the camera team didn't enable portrait mode,

00:55:18 ◼   ► even though it has LIDAR.

00:55:19 ◼   ► So if you hit the portrait mode button

00:55:21 ◼   ► and you're using the rear cameras,

00:55:22 ◼   ► it actually flips around

00:55:23 ◼   ► and switches to the true depth camera front facing,

00:55:26 ◼   ► which is a really weird experience.

00:55:28 ◼   ► It just felt like they wanted to get this iPad out.

00:55:30 ◼   ► They didn't have time to do everything.

00:55:32 ◼   ► So they just shipped it, which is really super odd.

00:55:35 ◼   ► But my only guess is that they need to get this technology

00:55:38 ◼   ► out so that we're all, developers especially,

00:55:41 ◼   ► but we're all using this stuff far enough advanced

00:55:44 ◼   ► that they can get it into the iPhone

00:55:46 ◼   ► and then into whatever wearable products

00:55:48 ◼   ► they're thinking about for next year.

00:55:50 ◼   ► - I guess it's just hard for me to see it.

00:55:55 ◼   ► And it's like, maybe there's a market in AR software

00:55:58 ◼   ► for iOS and for the phone that I'm just not seeing.

00:56:01 ◼   ► Like I know that you can get like the Ikea app

00:56:03 ◼   ► and drop a Kerfloggen chair in the middle of your living room

00:56:08 ◼   ► and see what it looks like.

00:56:11 ◼   ► And I've played with that and there's some cool stuff,

00:56:14 ◼   ► but maybe people are using that more than I think.

00:56:17 ◼   ► Like I've-- - I don't think so.

00:56:18 ◼   ► Like I don't think they needed to ship this.

00:56:19 ◼   ► Like honestly, I don't think we would have noticed

00:56:21 ◼   ► if they hadn't updated the iPad Pro

00:56:22 ◼   ► because the Magic Keyboard, which was the biggest deal,

00:56:25 ◼   ► and the cursor support worked with the A12X version

00:56:29 ◼   ► as well. - Right, right.

00:56:30 ◼   ► To me, the more interesting use of LiDAR

00:56:34 ◼   ► as we know it now in these devices

00:56:37 ◼   ► is just as an extra aid for the regular camera system.

00:56:42 ◼   ► Which is what the iPhone 12 Pro and Pro Max do.

00:56:47 ◼   ► Is that they will-- - And the iPad does not do.

00:56:50 ◼   ► - Right, that they'll use LiDAR in low light situations

00:56:55 ◼   ► to help with autofocus.

00:56:57 ◼   ► And they only need it in low light

00:56:59 ◼   ► because when it's not low light,

00:57:01 ◼   ► the regular camera lens needs no help.

00:57:03 ◼   ► It autofocuses so fast that the LiDAR's too crude to help.

00:57:08 ◼   ► It's like, yeah, just pitch in when it's dark

00:57:11 ◼   ► and that's good enough.

00:57:13 ◼   ► But the iPad doesn't do that.

00:57:16 ◼   ► And I did ask, I remember, not that I'm,

00:57:20 ◼   ► it was all that, (laughs)

00:57:23 ◼   ► not that it wasn't an obvious question,

00:57:25 ◼   ► but I remember in an off the,

00:57:27 ◼   ► talking with people at Apple off the record

00:57:29 ◼   ► being briefed on the iPad, I asked about,

00:57:32 ◼   ► well, does this LiDAR sensor in the iPad Pro

00:57:35 ◼   ► help with autofocus with the regular camera?

00:57:38 ◼   ► And the answer was, well, that's an interesting idea,

00:57:41 ◼   ► but no. (laughs)

00:57:43 ◼   ► - And I assumed that meant it was coming this fall,

00:57:45 ◼   ► but it didn't come this fall either.

00:57:46 ◼   ► - Right.

00:57:48 ◼   ► That's an interesting idea is always,

00:57:51 ◼   ► that's like the best you ever get from them. (laughs)

00:57:54 ◼   ► - Yeah, yes. - It usually means,

00:57:56 ◼   ► it usually means, mm, I'd like to say something, but I can't.

00:58:01 ◼   ► And I guess it's not coming to these iPad Pros.

00:58:05 ◼   ► - Which I don't get because if they've built it now

00:58:06 ◼   ► for the iPhone and they're still like,

00:58:08 ◼   ► iPad OS and iOS are still synonymous systems.

00:58:13 ◼   ► I was surprised they didn't update the camera app

00:58:14 ◼   ► in iPad OS 14 to just do all this.

00:58:17 ◼   ► - Or at least like in 14.1 or 14.2

00:58:21 ◼   ► because there's always,

00:58:22 ◼   ► we're starting to see a pattern now

00:58:25 ◼   ► where the 14 or whatever the new integer is,

00:58:29 ◼   ► .0 is very specifically cut off in August for the phones,

00:58:34 ◼   ► for the new phones.

00:58:38 ◼   ► And it's the .1 update that is really the .0,

00:58:43 ◼   ► or what we used to think of as a .0.

00:58:47 ◼   ► It's like the .0s are somewhere between beta and real.

00:58:52 ◼   ► And in fact, going back to our Chrome talk a couple

00:58:55 ◼   ► of minutes ago, Apple doesn't even push the 14.0

00:59:00 ◼   ► or 13.0s to people as like an automatic update.

00:59:04 ◼   ► Like there's this weird internal criterion

00:59:08 ◼   ► that they don't want to talk about

00:59:10 ◼   ► as to when they decide to push the,

00:59:14 ◼   ► okay, yeah, here's your red badge for upgrade,

00:59:18 ◼   ► get the new version of the OS.

00:59:20 ◼   ► And the .0s usually aren't it.

00:59:23 ◼   ► - I just assume it's the emoji update.

00:59:25 ◼   ► That's the thing everyone cares about.

00:59:27 ◼   ► - You know that that's true.

00:59:28 ◼   ► When they really want you to update,

00:59:31 ◼   ► when they're like, yeah, this is rock solid.

00:59:33 ◼   ► This is actually pushing this update out

00:59:36 ◼   ► is going to cut down on our tech support

00:59:39 ◼   ► and Genius Bar appointments, not increase them.

00:59:42 ◼   ► That's when they're like,

00:59:43 ◼   ► and here's a bunch of new emoji.

00:59:45 ◼   ► - Here's a new emoji, yeah.

00:59:47 ◼   ► - So I know it wasn't much else from that though.

00:59:50 ◼   ► I don't really have much to say.

00:59:51 ◼   ► I have nothing to say about the MacBook Air,

00:59:53 ◼   ► that the Intel one, other than that,

00:59:55 ◼   ► the keyboard was better.

00:59:57 ◼   ► I can say one-

01:00:00 ◼   ► - It was trash, but the keyboard was better.

01:00:02 ◼   ► - One year later, the return of scissor key switches

01:00:06 ◼   ► in the keyboards has to be considered a triumph.

01:00:09 ◼   ► We now no longer talk about bad MacBook keyboards,

01:00:13 ◼   ► except as a very faint memory of the-

01:00:17 ◼   ► - It's a faint and painful memory.

01:00:18 ◼   ► - Right.

01:00:20 ◼   ► April 15th, the iPhone SE 2 came out, second generation.

01:00:25 ◼   ► I can only presume that if,

01:00:27 ◼   ► that the plan was to announce that all at one March event,

01:00:31 ◼   ► that it would have been the iPhone SE,

01:00:34 ◼   ► the tweaked iPad Pro's and the MacBook.

01:00:39 ◼   ► And it just wasn't because of COVID.

01:00:43 ◼   ► That's what I think.

01:00:44 ◼   ► - And the odd thing to me is that they had

01:00:46 ◼   ► really well-produced videos for the iPad Pro.

01:00:48 ◼   ► They had Craig Federighi showing off the keyboard

01:00:51 ◼   ► and the cursor, and they had a video with developers

01:00:54 ◼   ► showing off different parts of AR,

01:00:55 ◼   ► and there was nothing for the iPhone SE.

01:00:57 ◼   ► Like, as far as I can tell, no Apple presentation at all.

01:01:00 ◼   ► - Well, I guess we should talk about that.

01:01:02 ◼   ► I guess that the bigger part of the March announcement

01:01:04 ◼   ► wasn't really the iPad Pros, but the Magic Keyboard.

01:01:07 ◼   ► And the Magic Keyboard, what makes it magic,

01:01:12 ◼   ► it is a nice device.

01:01:14 ◼   ► I really like it.

01:01:15 ◼   ► It's one of my- - Me too.

01:01:16 ◼   ► - It would be one of my top picks of the year

01:01:18 ◼   ► as an Apple product, but it's not just the keyboard itself,

01:01:23 ◼   ► it's the iPad OS update that enabled

01:01:27 ◼   ► a real mouse cursor system, system-wide,

01:01:32 ◼   ► which was like 13.3 or something like that.

01:01:36 ◼   ► - Yeah, they didn't even wait for 14.0.

01:01:39 ◼   ► - Right, they just released it, and it just worked.

01:01:43 ◼   ► Apps had to be updated to really support it,

01:01:47 ◼   ► but even with doing nothing, it was still pretty usable.

01:01:50 ◼   ► Like, it just clicks, equals a touch,

01:01:53 ◼   ► and all of a sudden, you and I,

01:01:56 ◼   ► we could just interrupt people right here,

01:02:00 ◼   ► tell people, you can listen to me and Rene argue

01:02:05 ◼   ► about touch screen Macs, and if iPads can add mouse support

01:02:10 ◼   ► without messing things up,

01:02:12 ◼   ► why can't Macs add touch screens the same way?

01:02:16 ◼   ► You need a whole 38 minutes of us talking about it,

01:02:19 ◼   ► and you can go see it on Rene's YouTube channel,

01:02:22 ◼   ► 'cause there it is.

01:02:23 ◼   ► - That's terrific, but the thing that I thought

01:02:27 ◼   ► was super fun about this was,

01:02:29 ◼   ► because it leaked, people found it in the firmware,

01:02:31 ◼   ► and everyone just assumed it was such a big change,

01:02:33 ◼   ► it would have to be iOS 14.

01:02:36 ◼   ► - Yeah, definitely, yeah.

01:02:37 ◼   ► The rumors just all jumped to the conclusion

01:02:41 ◼   ► that it was iOS 14, and they were just like,

01:02:43 ◼   ► "Nope, right here in the middle of March."

01:02:47 ◼   ► With a new keyboard, they just shipped it.

01:02:49 ◼   ► - Right, and it's great, it really is.

01:02:51 ◼   ► I use my iPad so much more than I ever did before.

01:02:55 ◼   ► It is my kitchen laptop.

01:02:58 ◼   ► I go days at a time without taking my iPad

01:03:01 ◼   ► off the Magic Keyboard.

01:03:03 ◼   ► It was neat because I had the trackpad

01:03:06 ◼   ► and external keyboard support,

01:03:08 ◼   ► I mean, the external keyboard worked before,

01:03:10 ◼   ► but without a trackpad, it was always,

01:03:12 ◼   ► it's just amazing how much more useful it is.

01:03:15 ◼   ► Like, when your hands are on the keyboard

01:03:17 ◼   ► to have a trackpad right there

01:03:19 ◼   ► and not have to reach and touch the screen.

01:03:21 ◼   ► But the Magic Keyboard is so good at it.

01:03:26 ◼   ► And in a way where they didn't cripple

01:03:29 ◼   ► the support for just using an external trackpad

01:03:35 ◼   ► or Bluetooth keyboard to get you,

01:03:38 ◼   ► like, the only good way to use it

01:03:41 ◼   ► is to buy this $170 Magic Keyboard or whatever.

01:03:44 ◼   ► How much is a Magic Keyboard?

01:03:46 ◼   ► I think it's--

01:03:47 ◼   ► - I just wanna call it $300, I don't remember exactly,

01:03:49 ◼   ► but it's incredibly expensive.

01:03:50 ◼   ► - It's very expensive.

01:03:52 ◼   ► But they've made just regular,

01:03:56 ◼   ► if you just use a Bluetooth mouse or a Magic trackpad

01:04:01 ◼   ► from a Mac that you have laying around

01:04:03 ◼   ► and whatever third-party keyboard you want,

01:04:06 ◼   ► they've made it as good as it could be

01:04:08 ◼   ► with Bluetooth and iPad, you know,

01:04:11 ◼   ► but the thing that I've gone back and forth

01:04:14 ◼   ► over the months of 2020 trying, you know,

01:04:18 ◼   ► using mechanical keyboards and stuff with my iPad

01:04:22 ◼   ► and going back to the Magic Keyboard,

01:04:23 ◼   ► the thing that is so, that truly is the magic part of it

01:04:26 ◼   ► is that you never have to pair and unpair it, right?

01:04:29 ◼   ► Like, when I'm using a Magic trackpad,

01:04:33 ◼   ► just the standalone trackpad and a keyboard,

01:04:36 ◼   ► I might like the keyboard better

01:04:37 ◼   ► 'cause it's a clicky mechanical keyboard,

01:04:39 ◼   ► but I pick my iPad up and I go off

01:04:44 ◼   ► and it's still connected, right?

01:04:45 ◼   ► And here's where it's like you want, in theory,

01:04:48 ◼   ► you want Bluetooth to have as good a range as possible,

01:04:52 ◼   ► but it's like the better Bluetooth's range is,

01:04:54 ◼   ► the more likely it is that I've wandered several rooms

01:04:57 ◼   ► apart from my kitchen and I tap on something

01:05:00 ◼   ► to type a URL or something and I can't,

01:05:04 ◼   ► I don't have an on-screen keyboard, why is it,

01:05:06 ◼   ► oh, it still thinks it's connected to the Bluetooth keyboard.

01:05:09 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:05:10 ◼   ► - And that's how my mind thinks.

01:05:12 ◼   ► It's like you still think you're connected

01:05:14 ◼   ► and it's like, no, I am connected,

01:05:16 ◼   ► that's why there's no on-screen keyboard

01:05:18 ◼   ► and I gotta go up to Control Center

01:05:20 ◼   ► and turn on airplane mode, give it a second,

01:05:23 ◼   ► turn off airplane mode and then it all works.

01:05:27 ◼   ► It always takes me out of it,

01:05:28 ◼   ► whereas when I'm using the actual Magic Keyboard accessory,

01:05:32 ◼   ► as soon as I take the iPad off the keyboard,

01:05:35 ◼   ► the iPad instantly knows, okay,

01:05:37 ◼   ► now I'll give you the on-screen keyboard

01:05:40 ◼   ► and it never interrupts your flow.

01:05:42 ◼   ► It is-- - It's like a dock,

01:05:43 ◼   ► it's like two states and I think Federighi

01:05:45 ◼   ► shows that off right in that initial video

01:05:47 ◼   ► where you come, you slap it down, it's docked,

01:05:49 ◼   ► it's your keyboard, you pick it up, you walk away,

01:05:52 ◼   ► it's undocked, it's no longer your keyboard.

01:05:54 ◼   ► - It is a terrific experience, it really is,

01:05:57 ◼   ► it is so very strange, it is in fact $300.

01:06:02 ◼   ► - Yes.

01:06:04 ◼   ► - I think that the 13-inch one is an extra 30 bucks, right?

01:06:09 ◼   ► It's like $329?

01:06:10 ◼   ► It doesn't seem right, does that seem right to you

01:06:15 ◼   ► that you have to pay more for the bigger one?

01:06:18 ◼   ► - I guess big means more, I don't know.

01:06:20 ◼   ► - But it's like you get-- - In your inventory psyche.

01:06:21 ◼   ► - You get the same number of keys, you know?

01:06:25 ◼   ► - Yeah, they're just cramped closer together on the 11.

01:06:28 ◼   ► - It does seem weird, oh, it's $350,

01:06:30 ◼   ► so it's $299 for the 11-inch and $350 for the 12.9-inch.

01:06:35 ◼   ► That doesn't seem right to me, but either way,

01:06:38 ◼   ► it is a premium price.

01:06:39 ◼   ► I have to say though, if you really want to use your iPad

01:06:43 ◼   ► as a laptop, it's worth it, it is.

01:06:46 ◼   ► - Yes.

01:06:47 ◼   ► - And as the year has gone on,

01:06:49 ◼   ► I see that as money well spent,

01:06:51 ◼   ► and this is for me a person who still,

01:06:54 ◼   ► even now that I'm more in love with using the iPad

01:06:56 ◼   ► than ever before, easily still the first Apple platform

01:07:00 ◼   ► I would ditch from my life if somebody came to me

01:07:03 ◼   ► in some kind of bizarre, sicko, hostage situation

01:07:08 ◼   ► and said, "You have to get rid of one of your Apple devices

01:07:10 ◼   ► "and never use it again."

01:07:11 ◼   ► The iPad would still be the first one I would get rid of.

01:07:14 ◼   ► - In a bizarre Christopher Nolan movie,

01:07:15 ◼   ► if you were forced to choose, the iPad would go first.

01:07:18 ◼   ► - Right.

01:07:19 ◼   ► Tenet 2.

01:07:23 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:07:24 ◼   ► - It's really, what a successful product.

01:07:28 ◼   ► And as the months have gone on,

01:07:30 ◼   ► I'm only more keenly aware of how very nice it is.

01:07:34 ◼   ► I don't have much more to say about it though.

01:07:38 ◼   ► - No, I think it was a terrific,

01:07:39 ◼   ► really good start to the year.

01:07:40 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:07:41 ◼   ► Next up would be,

01:07:43 ◼   ► I don't think there was anything else, still WWDC.

01:07:47 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:07:48 ◼   ► - And so there's the run-up where it was like,

01:07:51 ◼   ► I forget when they announced it,

01:07:52 ◼   ► but they pulled the trigger pretty early and just said,

01:07:54 ◼   ► "You know what, we're not gonna have,

01:07:56 ◼   ► "we're gonna, you know."

01:07:57 ◼   ► About as early as they usually ever announced WWDC

01:08:00 ◼   ► and they just said,

01:08:01 ◼   ► "You know, we're gonna do it all virtual this year."

01:08:04 ◼   ► - And people weren't sure

01:08:06 ◼   ► because Google just flat out canceled IO.

01:08:08 ◼   ► - Right, and Facebook was going,

01:08:12 ◼   ► Facebook like wavered on their developer conference.

01:08:14 ◼   ► - On F8, yeah.

01:08:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, and then they were like, "Ah, forget it.

01:08:17 ◼   ► "I don't know, we're not gonna have it."

01:08:19 ◼   ► - Microsoft did a virtual one,

01:08:21 ◼   ► but it was very different than what WWDC ended up being.

01:08:23 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:08:24 ◼   ► WWDC, in hindsight,

01:08:27 ◼   ► it's really kind of remarkable

01:08:31 ◼   ► that it was only three weeks later

01:08:37 ◼   ► than it probably would have been

01:08:38 ◼   ► if it had been held for real.

01:08:40 ◼   ► And how high the production values were

01:08:44 ◼   ► and how popular it was, how well received.

01:08:47 ◼   ► I mean, it was so well received

01:08:50 ◼   ► that I would say there's more people

01:08:54 ◼   ► that I observed who said,

01:08:57 ◼   ► "I hope that this is what they do every year

01:08:59 ◼   ► "than the other way around."

01:09:02 ◼   ► - And developers were angry at Apple going into WWDC

01:09:05 ◼   ► because of all the things with Hey and with,

01:09:07 ◼   ► I forget the account that got canceled.

01:09:09 ◼   ► So there was a lot of developer relations

01:09:13 ◼   ► sort of a fix-up to be doing,

01:09:15 ◼   ► but it seemed like when WWDC hit,

01:09:17 ◼   ► a lot of that got put aside.

01:09:19 ◼   ► - Yeah, it was a remarkably successful WWDC,

01:09:22 ◼   ► even with the complete inversion

01:09:26 ◼   ► of it being a real-world, traditional,

01:09:30 ◼   ► multi-thousand attendee conference

01:09:32 ◼   ► in a big convention center,

01:09:34 ◼   ► to being completely virtual.

01:09:37 ◼   ► It was very well received.

01:09:39 ◼   ► And content-wise, all sorts of stuff

01:09:44 ◼   ► that I think was also very, very well received.

01:09:46 ◼   ► It was a very good year for Apple's platforms.

01:09:49 ◼   ► - And they kept the fun part.

01:09:51 ◼   ► When the different engineers and program managers

01:09:54 ◼   ► showed up to do their sessions,

01:09:55 ◼   ► they all had different sort of Easter eggs

01:09:57 ◼   ► on the desks and in the background,

01:09:59 ◼   ► and different sort of fun things in it.

01:10:01 ◼   ► And perennial friend of the show,

01:10:03 ◼   ► Serenity Caldwell, did these daily wrap-ups

01:10:05 ◼   ► from the evangelism team on what happened every day.

01:10:08 ◼   ► - They were so good and so tight.

01:10:11 ◼   ► It was like, today's news in 60 seconds or 90 seconds,

01:10:15 ◼   ► or some unbelievably short period of time.

01:10:19 ◼   ► I was like, I know her.

01:10:20 ◼   ► She used to be at my show.

01:10:22 ◼   ► Yes, this is really good.

01:10:24 ◼   ► And it was like a virtual Serenity Memoji.

01:10:27 ◼   ► - Memoji, yeah.

01:10:28 ◼   ► - Yeah, and it was like, that looks like her.

01:10:30 ◼   ► - Yep, and they all had that.

01:10:31 ◼   ► All the engineers, all the program managers

01:10:33 ◼   ► had their little Memoji with the computer

01:10:34 ◼   ► and the stickers and everything.

01:10:36 ◼   ► - I think that, I think that,

01:10:40 ◼   ► I don't know, I honestly don't,

01:10:44 ◼   ► I could see this going either way.

01:10:45 ◼   ► Like, is this, COVID aside,

01:10:48 ◼   ► I mean, 2021, I think that is probably

01:10:51 ◼   ► going to be virtual again,

01:10:52 ◼   ► because I don't see, they might as well plan for it.

01:10:56 ◼   ► And it's not that it seems like madness

01:11:00 ◼   ► to plan on having a real world,

01:11:02 ◼   ► 5,000 person convention in June,

01:11:04 ◼   ► but it just seems so ill,

01:11:05 ◼   ► it just seems like unlikely to be advisable, right?

01:11:08 ◼   ► Like, late May rolls around and COVID really is so,

01:11:13 ◼   ► you know, if it's really just like,

01:11:17 ◼   ► what's the most optimistic, realistic scenario

01:11:19 ◼   ► for late May around the world?

01:11:21 ◼   ► Imagine that in your mind,

01:11:23 ◼   ► there's not much, hotspots are down,

01:11:24 ◼   ► vaccinations have largely helped mitigate this.

01:11:29 ◼   ► I still don't think you want to put 5,000 people

01:11:33 ◼   ► from around the world in a convention center together, right?

01:11:37 ◼   ► And it's like, vaccines aren't a guarantee, right?

01:11:40 ◼   ► It's like, you know, that's not the way they work.

01:11:43 ◼   ► - And that's if enough people take them,

01:11:44 ◼   ► which, you know, we still don't know

01:11:46 ◼   ► what the supply and the take.

01:11:47 ◼   ► I think optimistically, we've heard maybe by the summer,

01:11:49 ◼   ► things will be better.

01:11:50 ◼   ► So maybe the September events are being thought of

01:11:53 ◼   ► either way, but I can't imagine

01:11:54 ◼   ► they're thinking about that for June.

01:11:56 ◼   ► - Yeah, so I would have to guess that WWDC 2021

01:12:00 ◼   ► is almost certainly going to be a virtual event

01:12:03 ◼   ► like last year's, and will, you know,

01:12:07 ◼   ► but let's flash forward another year, like, let's, you know,

01:12:11 ◼   ► and I think it's very realistic to think that by June 2022,

01:12:14 ◼   ► COVID is past tense, and we were like, ooh, remember that.

01:12:18 ◼   ► Is WWDC permanently a virtual event?

01:12:22 ◼   ► I don't know how to predict on that

01:12:24 ◼   ► because I could see it both ways.

01:12:26 ◼   ► I think there's aspects of the in-person experience

01:12:29 ◼   ► that are irreplaceable.

01:12:31 ◼   ► From my personal perspective in the media

01:12:34 ◼   ► and getting to talk to people in person,

01:12:38 ◼   ► I mean, I'll still talk to Apple people in person.

01:12:40 ◼   ► They'll still have press events.

01:12:42 ◼   ► The keynote may well involve, be more like a traditional,

01:12:45 ◼   ► in a virtual post-COVID world,

01:12:48 ◼   ► might be exactly like the iPhone events

01:12:50 ◼   ► where the only people who attend in person are the media,

01:12:54 ◼   ► right, and it's at the Steve Jobs Theater

01:12:57 ◼   ► and, you know, with 300 or 400 people

01:13:00 ◼   ► instead of 5,000 people.

01:13:02 ◼   ► So that aspect of it, I'm sure, will still be, you know,

01:13:08 ◼   ► replicated post-COVID.

01:13:10 ◼   ► It's the fact that there's so many people

01:13:12 ◼   ► in the developer community who I know

01:13:15 ◼   ► and both at a personal level but at a professional level

01:13:20 ◼   ► where I hear things and I learn things, you know.

01:13:24 ◼   ► There's certain aspects of real-world interaction

01:13:27 ◼   ► and trust that don't happen without being real,

01:13:30 ◼   ► and I would miss that.

01:13:32 ◼   ► - I still remember when iOS 7 was announced,

01:13:34 ◼   ► me, you, Guy English, Lorne Briktor,

01:13:36 ◼   ► and a couple, you know, GPU-savvy friends

01:13:39 ◼   ► standing in a bar trying to figure out

01:13:40 ◼   ► how they were injecting all the transparency

01:13:42 ◼   ► and Gaussian blur into the system,

01:13:44 ◼   ► and you just can't do that virtually.

01:13:46 ◼   ► - I do remember that, yeah.

01:13:48 ◼   ► My guesses were pretty bad, but yeah,

01:13:51 ◼   ► I see in Lorne and Guy try to figure that out.

01:13:53 ◼   ► It was pretty good, yeah, and watching Lorne, like,

01:13:55 ◼   ► move his thumb up and down just to--

01:13:57 ◼   ► - Yes. - Yeah, I don't know.

01:13:59 ◼   ► What do you think?

01:13:59 ◼   ► What's your gut feeling on the long, you know,

01:14:01 ◼   ► what Apple's thinking about this?

01:14:04 ◼   ► - I think, well, and I say think, but I also mean hope

01:14:07 ◼   ► because, you know, someone newly indie,

01:14:09 ◼   ► the idea of having, you know, I still have no idea

01:14:11 ◼   ► how to save or spend on any of this travel stuff myself

01:14:13 ◼   ► 'cause I don't have a giant media company

01:14:14 ◼   ► paying for everything anymore,

01:14:17 ◼   ► but I think a hybrid model,

01:14:18 ◼   ► just given how good the production value was,

01:14:21 ◼   ► like, I went back and looked at some previous events,

01:14:23 ◼   ► and the stage experience is great,

01:14:25 ◼   ► but it doesn't look as visually stunning

01:14:27 ◼   ► as what they did this year,

01:14:29 ◼   ► and I'm sure we'll get into how they progressed

01:14:30 ◼   ► and got better and better at the events over time,

01:14:33 ◼   ► but they really started upping the ante

01:14:35 ◼   ► on how you could do these sorts of things

01:14:37 ◼   ► as stream-only events,

01:14:39 ◼   ► and I think for the consumer stuff,

01:14:41 ◼   ► it still makes a lot of sense to present that,

01:14:43 ◼   ► and for developers, because 5,000 isn't, you know,

01:14:45 ◼   ► out of the millions of Apple developers,

01:14:47 ◼   ► the amount they can reach through a virtual event

01:14:49 ◼   ► is just significantly higher,

01:14:52 ◼   ► that I wouldn't be surprised if they have a hybrid model

01:14:54 ◼   ► where people do come gather for things

01:14:57 ◼   ► that they really need to, like,

01:14:58 ◼   ► for brand new products that require hands-on

01:15:01 ◼   ► or they want to give you, like, a tour

01:15:03 ◼   ► of the audio facility or eventually,

01:15:04 ◼   ► maybe an AR facility or something.

01:15:06 ◼   ► I think that'll make sense to do in person,

01:15:08 ◼   ► but I think as much as possible,

01:15:10 ◼   ► if they can project this sort of stuff to the world,

01:15:13 ◼   ► it just invites everyone in

01:15:15 ◼   ► to, like, a really first-class experience.

01:15:17 ◼   ► - I feel like with the keynote,

01:15:20 ◼   ► or let's say keynotes, plural,

01:15:23 ◼   ► because, you know, the iPhone event is always a keynote

01:15:26 ◼   ► and the Apple Watch event this year,

01:15:28 ◼   ► which was separate from the iPhone, et cetera,

01:15:30 ◼   ► the keynotes, I think, are different.

01:15:33 ◼   ► I mean, they clearly are different,

01:15:35 ◼   ► but I don't know that I, even as somebody

01:15:38 ◼   ► whose job it is to be tuned into them,

01:15:40 ◼   ► I wouldn't say that they're better or worse.

01:15:43 ◼   ► They're just very different.

01:15:45 ◼   ► - They're like plays versus movies or TV shows.

01:15:47 ◼   ► - Right, and yeah, and I think Apple,

01:15:52 ◼   ► I think Apple really likes the production value playfulness

01:15:56 ◼   ► of these virtual ones and the control it gives them,

01:16:00 ◼   ► and I'm sure it's a little bit of a breather for them

01:16:02 ◼   ► that they're not live, and so nothing can, you know--

01:16:05 ◼   ► - Their face ID can't go wrong.

01:16:07 ◼   ► - Right, and they can, you know, like,

01:16:09 ◼   ► they go to, you know, if it's a Monday morning keynote,

01:16:12 ◼   ► they go to bed Sunday night, and they know it's already,

01:16:15 ◼   ► you know, somebody's just gonna hit the play button,

01:16:17 ◼   ► and it streams, and they've got

01:16:20 ◼   ► the streaming stuff down cold, right?

01:16:22 ◼   ► I mean, they sleep more soundly the night before a keynote

01:16:26 ◼   ► than they did when it's live,

01:16:29 ◼   ► but I do think Apple genuinely, truly appreciates

01:16:34 ◼   ► the intangible benefit of an enthusiastic live audience,

01:16:40 ◼   ► and that there's, not just for the people in the room,

01:16:46 ◼   ► which again is limited to 5,000 out of, you know,

01:16:49 ◼   ► an intended audience of, you know, I don't know,

01:16:51 ◼   ► millions, really, but that it gives an energy

01:16:54 ◼   ► to the presentation, even to the people

01:16:56 ◼   ► who are watching from home, you know?

01:16:58 ◼   ► - Craig's jokes are just night and day

01:17:00 ◼   ► when that audience is there to react to them.

01:17:02 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:17:03 ◼   ► - Right, they had to switch to like a romance shot,

01:17:07 ◼   ► you know, of him opening up the MacBook to get it back.

01:17:10 ◼   ► - Or just the crack marketing team stuff.

01:17:12 ◼   ► - Right, it just doesn't, it's different,

01:17:15 ◼   ► but I feel like the actual sessions for WWDC,

01:17:18 ◼   ► which is actually the meat of the conference

01:17:21 ◼   ► as a developer conference, right,

01:17:23 ◼   ► were clearly night and day way better this year

01:17:28 ◼   ► without an audience, without being on stage,

01:17:32 ◼   ► because it's just more, they were meant

01:17:36 ◼   ► to be watched remotely on a, you know,

01:17:39 ◼   ► you're watching in the developer app on your Mac

01:17:42 ◼   ► or on your iPad or on your Apple TV or whatever,

01:17:44 ◼   ► but that's how they were shot,

01:17:47 ◼   ► as opposed to when they're delivered live

01:17:50 ◼   ► and it's for the people in the audience in the room

01:17:54 ◼   ► and the slides.

01:17:56 ◼   ► It's not that they were bad that way,

01:17:58 ◼   ► but they're just clearly better this way

01:18:00 ◼   ► and as the fact that they're all delivered

01:18:05 ◼   ► by the actual engineers who work on these technologies,

01:18:10 ◼   ► right, if it's like, you know, what's new in core text,

01:18:14 ◼   ► you know, and you're talking about

01:18:15 ◼   ► all these great new features for right to left languages

01:18:19 ◼   ► and stuff like that, the person who is delivering the session

01:18:24 ◼   ► is the person who's just spent a year

01:18:26 ◼   ► or maybe two years or three years working on it

01:18:29 ◼   ► and they know it and they're excited about it

01:18:31 ◼   ► and now they're getting to deliver it

01:18:33 ◼   ► and they always, it always amazes me

01:18:36 ◼   ► how well they do every year, you know,

01:18:38 ◼   ► because it's not their job.

01:18:39 ◼   ► Their job, 51 weeks of the year,

01:18:41 ◼   ► is being the super nerd on whatever it is

01:18:45 ◼   ► they're the super nerd about in Apple's platforms

01:18:49 ◼   ► and in one week of the year, they're presenting

01:18:52 ◼   ► and I know it takes more than a week.

01:18:53 ◼   ► I actually, that takes away from how long I know

01:18:55 ◼   ► they put into the sessions, you know,

01:18:57 ◼   ► but for a few weeks a year,

01:18:58 ◼   ► they're doing this to do one session.

01:19:00 ◼   ► It's more comfortable, I think, clearly,

01:19:05 ◼   ► however awkward it is for an engineer

01:19:07 ◼   ► to suddenly be in a pristine Apple staged room

01:19:12 ◼   ► where they held all these sessions with a camera crew.

01:19:15 ◼   ► - It's probably easier than code review.

01:19:18 ◼   ► - Well, maybe, but it takes away

01:19:22 ◼   ► the stage fright aspect of it though, right?

01:19:24 ◼   ► Like where you're not in front of an audience

01:19:27 ◼   ► of hundreds of people in a blackened,

01:19:32 ◼   ► stage-lit, theater-lit conference room, right?

01:19:37 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:19:38 ◼   ► - Everybody, I mean, I do my live show once a year.

01:19:41 ◼   ► I mean, I speak publicly a little bit more frequently

01:19:46 ◼   ► than most people and it makes me nervous as hell

01:19:50 ◼   ► every single time.

01:19:52 ◼   ► I mean, it just takes away one thing

01:19:56 ◼   ► that they're not suited at and it's just a better format.

01:19:59 ◼   ► So I mean, the sessions, I honestly didn't see one comment

01:20:04 ◼   ► from anybody that wasn't along the lines of,

01:20:07 ◼   ► oh my God, the sessions are so much better this year.

01:20:09 ◼   ► They're just more comfortable, it's just easier to edit

01:20:14 ◼   ► and cut between screenshots and video of the screen,

01:20:18 ◼   ► of the technology being shown off and the speaker.

01:20:23 ◼   ► And it was delightful and it felt like it was,

01:20:26 ◼   ► you got so much more of a sense of the presenters.

01:20:31 ◼   ► - Did you get any feedback on this?

01:20:32 ◼   ► The only thing I didn't hear about

01:20:33 ◼   ► and didn't follow up on is the labs

01:20:35 ◼   ► because those, I know they tried to do the best they could

01:20:38 ◼   ► virtually, but that was such a hallway filled with people,

01:20:41 ◼   ► talking and interacting with the engineers,

01:20:44 ◼   ► showing them their apps back and forth.

01:20:46 ◼   ► And I'm guessing that all just transpired

01:20:48 ◼   ► over WebEx this year.

01:20:50 ◼   ► - Yeah, I didn't--

01:20:50 ◼   ► - But it must feel different than being live.

01:20:53 ◼   ► - I didn't really hear much about that, yay or nay.

01:20:56 ◼   ► It has-- - Yeah, me either.

01:20:57 ◼   ► - Yeah, I can't help but think that there's,

01:21:00 ◼   ► that part of what's missing from that lab experience is,

01:21:05 ◼   ► it can't be replicated over WebEx, right?

01:21:10 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:21:10 ◼   ► - It, you just always, and again, it's not,

01:21:14 ◼   ► it sounds shady that they're trying to cover their ass

01:21:17 ◼   ► and that's not what I'm alleging,

01:21:19 ◼   ► that there are things that if you can grab the ear

01:21:23 ◼   ► of somebody who works on core audio for your audio app

01:21:28 ◼   ► and show them the bug right there,

01:21:30 ◼   ► you might get them to say something

01:21:32 ◼   ► that they wouldn't put in writing in a radar.

01:21:35 ◼   ► And again, it's not because what it was

01:21:38 ◼   ► is something that would get them in trouble

01:21:41 ◼   ► if they put it in writing.

01:21:42 ◼   ► It's just, it's like I said about just human interaction

01:21:46 ◼   ► and trust, you just get something and they might say,

01:21:48 ◼   ► ah, you know what, I know, how are you doing this?

01:21:52 ◼   ► Are you doing this with blah, blah, blah?

01:21:54 ◼   ► And it's like, yes, that's exactly what I'm doing.

01:21:56 ◼   ► It's like, ah.

01:21:57 ◼   ► - There's a lack of formality and intermediation

01:21:59 ◼   ► that just occurs in person.

01:22:01 ◼   ► I think, and they might say, ah,

01:22:02 ◼   ► I think there might be a bug there.

01:22:04 ◼   ► I'm sorry, do you have a radar?

01:22:06 ◼   ► Yes, here's my radars.

01:22:07 ◼   ► Okay, I'm gonna take a note of this.

01:22:09 ◼   ► I will look at them, but in the meantime,

01:22:11 ◼   ► if you do it this other way,

01:22:13 ◼   ► I think you might have a workaround.

01:22:14 ◼   ► And you just hear stories that come out

01:22:16 ◼   ► of lab interactions like that

01:22:18 ◼   ► that I bet are less effective.

01:22:21 ◼   ► Is it a reason to hold 5,000 attendee WWDC in San Jose?

01:22:26 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:22:27 ◼   ► - Yeah, no, I don't know either.

01:22:30 ◼   ► But you know, it's like someone going up and saying,

01:22:31 ◼   ► yeah, I've made your framework cry and here's how.

01:22:34 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:22:35 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:22:36 ◼   ► All right, let me take a break,

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01:24:44 ◼   ► - So we buried the lead on this entire WWDC thing, Jon.

01:24:49 ◼   ► - Which was?

01:24:50 ◼   ► - Apple Silicon.

01:24:51 ◼   ► (Jon laughs)

01:24:53 ◼   ► - I don't know, I don't know, when do we talk about it?

01:24:55 ◼   ► Do we talk about it at WWDC or do we talk about it

01:24:58 ◼   ► at the end of the year as the last thing of the year?

01:25:00 ◼   ► I mean, it's--

01:25:01 ◼   ► - Well, they at least announced it,

01:25:02 ◼   ► and the best thing about that is we didn't have to put up

01:25:04 ◼   ► with rumors about Apple Silicon anymore.

01:25:06 ◼   ► - Right.

01:25:07 ◼   ► It was, it turned out much like I thought,

01:25:12 ◼   ► which was that performance was going to be really stunning.

01:25:19 ◼   ► Like, and I was like, am I mistreating?

01:25:22 ◼   ► I actually, I don't do this a lot,

01:25:23 ◼   ► but I went back and watched the WWDC keynote again,

01:25:27 ◼   ► leading up to the actual M1 announcement

01:25:29 ◼   ► to watch Johnny Cerucci's part again,

01:25:32 ◼   ► 'cause I was like, when I watched that,

01:25:34 ◼   ► it seemed to me like he was saying,

01:25:36 ◼   ► I would love to tell you more, but we're building,

01:25:39 ◼   ► and I think I was right.

01:25:42 ◼   ► Like, he said was, look, we started with iPhone chips,

01:25:45 ◼   ► and I guess the iPad, you know, iPhone and iPad.

01:25:47 ◼   ► And then he said, we took what we knew about those

01:25:51 ◼   ► and we shrunk it to make Apple Watch.

01:25:55 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:25:56 ◼   ► - And now we're doing the opposite.

01:25:57 ◼   ► We're going bigger to make this for Mac,

01:26:00 ◼   ► whereas opposed to we're just gonna put A13

01:26:04 ◼   ► and A14 chips in Macs.

01:26:06 ◼   ► - He said a family of SOCs.

01:26:07 ◼   ► - Right, and like the closest he got to saying