00:00:39 ◼ ► Like, you know, just to go back 100 years, like, when my grandfather went into the coal mines
00:00:50 ◼ ► I never hesitate to bring it up because I know my grandfather—nothing would please him more
00:01:20 ◼ ► Sometimes I don't know what to do if I'm doing, like, my thoughts and observation type posts.
00:01:35 ◼ ► This was like, "Here's a whole crapshoot of stuff that are only a few of which are related."
00:01:45 ◼ ► It's not like, "Oh, don't do it Apple's way because you don't want to let them dictate it."
00:02:07 ◼ ► I mean, it really is just a very, very nice shade of purple that I personally would never buy.
00:02:21 ◼ ► They're like, "Hey, it's okay to have some colors because we just had a really boring year."
00:02:25 ◼ ► So what if we let you buy some things that are not just a few limited shades of gray and white?
00:02:37 ◼ ► And that came up, and they sort of demurred on whether the colors, you know, and, like,
00:02:44 ◼ ► the IMAX and the bright color—I got the impression that that was actually in the works before.
00:02:54 ◼ ► That's the thing is that they wouldn't say—they never want to say when they make decisions.
00:02:58 ◼ ► It's like, of all the things they're secret about, their timelines for product decisions
00:03:11 ◼ ► you know, so to be able to mass produce these colors with these intensities and consistency
00:03:38 ◼ ► somewhere, but there's some team of tastemakers at Apple who are clearly, like, totally wired
00:04:06 ◼ ► Like, I know that there's a hundred different things that Samsung copies from the iPhone
00:04:15 ◼ ► Like, remember when Apple, the big thing was the rose gold, you know, and rose gold everywhere.
00:05:10 ◼ ► I kind of defer to him on that because he's been, you know, he's part of and is running
00:05:19 ◼ ► And I think there's this—podcasts are now multimedia, multi-format, multi-place things.
00:05:34 ◼ ► There might be videos, downloads, live events, a Discord, merchandise, physical and digital.
00:05:40 ◼ ► So it's a whole, I think, successful podcasters or successful entrepreneurs of their brand
00:05:53 ◼ ► value in the sense of why people become members, because they can listen to the podcast often
00:06:05 ◼ ► easy way for people who have not yet investigated it or haven't built a big enough audience
00:06:16 ◼ ► system kind of things, like Ben Thompson does, or, you know, there's lots of networks you
00:06:21 ◼ ► could join—or not networks, but I'm like, you know, Libsyn and all these different hosting
00:06:36 ◼ ► know, 200,000 podcasts where they might go, "Oh, maybe I should enable this and occasionally
00:07:04 ◼ ► and suddenly newsletters are super hot and everybody wants in on it, even if the market
00:07:12 ◼ ► But so podcasts is an existing market, the advertising side is actually relatively small,
00:07:25 ◼ ► live events come back or even online events where actually, you know, people have figured
00:07:28 ◼ ► out how to get a thousand people to pay to come to a one or one and a half hour, essentially,
00:07:34 ◼ ► So there's, that world is growing maybe faster, but again, if you already have a podcast with
00:07:41 ◼ ► the audience that makes it worthwhile to, you know, that's bringing in enough money from
00:07:58 ◼ ► to care much about it because it's another thing to feed, another mechanism to deal with,
00:08:02 ◼ ► and the people are kind of in the, with Dave Siffre, way back in Tectorati, he described
00:08:18 ◼ ► You know, I've had podcasts, like New Disruptors for a while, it was like that, where it wasn't,
00:08:22 ◼ ► I didn't have a hundred thousands of downloads, but I had tens of thousands and that was enough
00:08:32 ◼ ► So I don't know exactly who this first pass of podcast subscriptions serves, but I don't
00:09:01 ◼ ► me, but it is a relief that none of it seems the least bit destructive to Apple podcasts
00:09:10 ◼ ► as we know it, which in addition to being an app that you can use to listen to podcasts
00:09:22 ◼ ► I mean, anybody who listens to ATP knows from Marco Arment, who makes a third-party podcast
00:09:28 ◼ ► player that uses the iTunes API, that it's the backbone of the whole podcasting industry.
00:09:40 ◼ ► I mean, Google for their own app, there's a certain point where it's, I think, distasteful.
00:09:45 ◼ ► Google is big enough to build their own podcast directory, but an indie app can do that, and
00:09:51 ◼ ► they haven't done anything that's the least bit destructive to that in terms of, oh, now all of
00:09:58 ◼ ► a sudden free podcasts don't show up because we really want to steer as many people as possible
00:10:05 ◼ ► podcast makers to use this proprietary subscription thing. So, I'm glad they didn't do that. So,
00:10:10 ◼ ► I feel like the worst-case scenario is if the subscription thing is sort of a bust. No harm done
00:10:16 ◼ ► to us as podcast listeners. No harm done to me as a podcast professional. It sounds weird,
00:10:24 ◼ ► but I guess true. So, there's that. And I think that's good, and I don't think that being
00:10:32 ◼ ► heavy-handed would do them any favors. But the weird thing about it is I'm not quite sure who
00:10:37 ◼ ► it is for, right? You kind of got at this. If you're more in that Kevin Kelly, thousand true
00:10:43 ◼ ► fans area where you're looking, and Craig Maud and I talked about this sort of demographic of
00:10:49 ◼ ► creators extensively on the last episode of my show. That was great. I wanted Craig to do the
00:10:56 ◼ ► Craig Maud cast a number of years ago, and he finally launched a podcast. He didn't call it
00:11:00 ◼ ► that, and I'm devastated. But you know what? That's sort of what put me in mind to talk to you
00:11:04 ◼ ► about being on Next because I can't talk to Craig. I don't think we talk much typography on the show,
00:11:09 ◼ ► but we've been talking. I talked to Azirov about the typography of his books, and then that got me
00:11:15 ◼ ► thinking about you anyway. But that thousand true fan idea, it works. And the internet makes it
00:11:22 ◼ ► possible in a way that it was possible on the local scale in the old pre-internet days where
00:11:29 ◼ ► you could have a band who was big in Philadelphia, and every weekend they were playing somewhere,
00:11:44 ◼ ► There are examples of that, but for the most part, I couldn't do what I do without the internet.
00:11:52 ◼ ► There's just no way. I could have my own printing press and print up Daring Fireball as a weekly
00:11:59 ◼ ► zine, and I would not have enough customers who I could distribute it to. I really couldn't.
00:12:05 ◼ ► Maybe it'd be more of a possibility if I'd moved to the Silicon Valley, but it's really hard.
00:12:13 ◼ ► There was that guy who lived—what was his name? Mark Anderson? I think he still does live on
00:12:17 ◼ ► Bainbridge Island here in the Seattle area. Or not Bain, I'm sorry, Whidbey, which Lilmore wrote,
00:12:21 ◼ ► you have to get there by ferry or drive them from the north. And he ran—was it like technology
00:12:25 ◼ ► news service? And it was a mailed newsletter, and he charged a fortune for it, and everybody
00:12:29 ◼ ► in the world seemed to subscribe to it. But it was one guy. It was one guy who could do that.
00:12:44 ◼ ► I did New Disruptors for a couple years back, several years ago, and did like 100 episodes.
00:12:50 ◼ ► It was great. And people asked me if I'd reboot it, and I did a Kickstarter and raised enough
00:12:54 ◼ ► money, again, to cover sort of editing costs and time and whatever, and do some live events and so
00:12:59 ◼ ► forth. And did a year's run of it, and I found the weirdest problem wasn't my interest, because I
00:13:05 ◼ ► love talking to people about how they find their own way to do their own thing. Like, you know,
00:13:08 ◼ ► you were on the original run of it, and there's just so many interesting people out there.
00:13:11 ◼ ► Here's the reason I didn't keep doing it in the second boot a couple years ago. Could not get
00:13:16 ◼ ► enough guests because nearly—I wouldn't say all creators, but Kickstarter, Indiegogo to a
00:13:22 ◼ ► lower extent, things like Substack, Memberful, and Patreon, and a few other things. They basically
00:13:30 ◼ ► have filled the zone for independent creators trying to figure out how to fund themselves.
00:13:43 ◼ ► And if those don't work for you, there's almost no other way to do it. So, it's not that independent
00:13:49 ◼ ► creators have been locked out, whether they're cartoonists or podcasters or writers or whatever.
00:14:02 ◼ ► "Well, I just use Patreon." And then I do this thing. It's like, "Oh, well, that's not as
00:14:05 ◼ ► interesting to say, like, 10 people on in a row who say, 'Yeah, I use Patreon.' That kind of solves
00:14:09 ◼ ► everything for me." So, that's where I think Apple's walking into that void where—not void,
00:14:14 ◼ ► but that filled space where they're saying, "What are you doing different for people, Apple?"
00:14:17 ◼ ► And again, it may be useful for people who haven't done anything yet, and maybe there'll be some stars
00:14:22 ◼ ► or some new things that come out of there, or maybe it produces enough revenue for smaller
00:14:26 ◼ ► podcasters to produce a more vibrant and broader, less, you know, more niche podcasting market that
00:14:34 ◼ ► doesn't have to achieve a level where people can put more of their time and effort in. So,
00:14:38 ◼ ► Jared: Well, and so, I just see that in that market, it's just a non-starter to me that
00:14:44 ◼ ► you don't get a relationship with the people who are paying for it, right? And I'm not faulting
00:14:49 ◼ ► Apple for setting it up this way. But it's a long-standing complaint that independent developers
00:14:55 ◼ ► who are used to the Mac world, where you buy the software from the software maker and they get your
00:15:01 ◼ ► email, and then when you lose your serial number, you have tech support, they could see that you're
00:15:06 ◼ ► a customer and they can offer you upgrade pricing and blah, blah, blah. I get the privacy angle that,
00:15:11 ◼ ► nope, you subscribe, you subscribe with Apple, and all I find out as a podcaster with a paid
00:15:18 ◼ ► podcast and Apple Podcast is now I have another $5 a month coming from somebody, and I don't know
00:15:24 ◼ ► who. But it doesn't work with that whole like, hey, what if you do want to have live shows for
00:15:29 ◼ ► your followers? What if you want to offer them, you know, if you're doing like a book, a physical
00:15:34 ◼ ► book, right, which you've done, which Craig Mott has done, or a print, you know, like you're an
00:15:39 ◼ ► artist and you're doing prints to put on the wall, but you want to offer them to your members first,
00:15:46 ◼ ► which is a super common frequent thing to do that is like win, win, win, right? Because it makes the
00:15:51 ◼ ► people feel it's another source of income for the creator, but it makes the members feel good
00:15:57 ◼ ► because they enjoy getting your work because they like your work, which is why they became a member,
00:16:02 ◼ ► you know, you don't get that with this, whereas you do with all of these other systems. And then
00:16:07 ◼ ► at the other end of the scale with like the super big Joe Rogan's and Dave Chappelle's and,
00:16:18 ◼ ► I seriously wonder if I look at it and I just think I thought the same thing with Joe Rogan,
00:16:26 ◼ ► frankly, but I just look at it and think there, it's great that no one company totally dominates
00:16:32 ◼ ► podcasts, but because they don't know one podcast, even Spotify, even iTunes is a big enough platform,
00:16:41 ◼ ► right? Like if you're that big, like for me, my audience, can I say, can I produce something for
00:16:49 ◼ ► pay that would only work on Apple platforms? Yeah, definitely. In fact, it might be a waste of time,
00:16:54 ◼ ► honestly, if I were to do something to do Android. But on the other hand, why, if I could do it on
00:17:02 ◼ ► the web, why not just do it on the web, right? Which is how dithering works. But for the truly
00:17:07 ◼ ► mega celebrities, can like a Dave Chappelle do a paid show that doesn't show up for Android users?
00:17:12 ◼ ► Pete: Here's what I dig, though, when you're describing that, I realize, oh yeah, this is
00:17:16 ◼ ► the missing piece is Apple just needs to integrate, and I say just, but the next, like Apple Podcast
00:17:22 ◼ ► Subscriptions 2.0, what it offers is, in show notes, it offers Apple Pay to buy stuff, right?
00:17:29 ◼ ► And if you're a subscriber, you can give them a discount on that. And then, so the Apple Pay
00:17:34 ◼ ► thing is like, hey, I'm Craig Maude and this is my podcast, and if you're a member, you know,
00:17:38 ◼ ► if you're a subscriber, you get X dollars off my next book, just open up your podcast app right now,
00:17:43 ◼ ► go to iTunes, and you'll see a thing right there right now, and you can double tap and you'll get
00:17:47 ◼ ► the discount because you're a subscriber. If you're not a subscriber, subscribe right away,
00:17:50 ◼ ► then you can still get the discount. I mean, that is a powerful pull, and I don't mind,
00:17:59 ◼ ► so you'd probably have to pay them 30% as usual for a digital good, but if it's a physical good,
00:18:02 ◼ ► maybe they'd let you put a different method of payment or let you use Apple Pay, and it doesn't,
00:18:06 ◼ ► you know, whatever. But like that kind of power of buy a thing in the podcast app that I'm talking
00:18:11 ◼ ► about right now or later, go back to the podcast app because I'm driving or whatever, that'd be
00:18:16 ◼ ► a huge integration, even if I don't know that person before they buy, when they buy, they have
00:18:21 ◼ ► to, you know, I have to get their address or some limited piece of information they've allowed
00:18:26 ◼ ► me to obtain in order to fulfill a thing. - Yeah, but I don't understand how would it get to them,
00:18:30 ◼ ► 'cause you don't know their address, right? - Well, no, they'd have to, I mean, you know,
00:18:33 ◼ ► and when you do an Apple Pay transaction, you have to get people-- - Oh, I see Apple Pay,
00:18:36 ◼ ► not in app, that was where I was misusing it. - Well, I'm sorry, yeah, but it would be exactly
00:18:41 ◼ ► that is that it's in, you know, you build it into the podcast app, and then it's an integrated thing
00:18:46 ◼ ► where Apple still controls the privacy aspects and you're disclosed what you're providing
00:18:50 ◼ ► as a buyer to the podcaster. So it doesn't build a relationship like you're building a mailing list,
00:18:55 ◼ ► but it builds a relationship like you can actually sell somebody something or get them to participate
00:19:00 ◼ ► in something. So that might be a 2.0 thing, but maybe not. Maybe this is just Apple, you know,
00:19:06 ◼ ► messing around because they wanna test the waters, and then they go and they buy Patreon, or they
00:19:10 ◼ ► buy the last independent podcasting company that's not available, I don't know, something like that.
00:19:15 ◼ ► - I don't know, I just don't know that it's a good fit. And then the other thing, Ben Thompson and I
00:19:20 ◼ ► touched on this, but we kinda, I kinda came to this conclusion at the end of today's episode
00:19:24 ◼ ► of Dithering, which is, wait, wouldn't the solution to this be an Android version of Apple Podcasts,
00:19:31 ◼ ► you know, which they do for Apple Music? And it caused us to both double-take while we were
00:19:37 ◼ ► recording and double-check and make sure that that wasn't a thing, you know, because there is,
00:19:41 ◼ ► I know there's Apple Music. And would that be popular? I don't know. I mean, Apple's forays off
00:19:50 ◼ ► their own platforms have been relatively not very popular. I mean, you know, Safari for Windows
00:19:59 ◼ ► did not take off. And it's one of those things, like, I don't know how many people even remember
00:20:04 ◼ ► that there was Safari for Windows. But it's fascinating to think, like, and see what Chrome
00:20:10 ◼ ► did to the browser industry and think about the potential that was there. And it just did not
00:20:15 ◼ ► click with Windows users. You know, I'm not a Windows user. I don't know. I remember, like,
00:20:22 ◼ ► kicking the tires somewhere where I saw Safari running on a Windows machine. But, you know,
00:20:27 ◼ ► that wasn't popular. iTunes was kind of popular. But was it really popular because it was a good
00:20:34 ◼ ► music-playing app for Windows? Or was it because everybody wanted an iPod, and if you had a Windows
00:20:39 ◼ ► PC, you therefore used iTunes? It seemed, and it also seems like the complaints from Windows users
00:20:46 ◼ ► were just a magnified version of the complaints from Mac users, where it started as, you know,
00:20:50 ◼ ► like a liked, if not beloved, app. And then as it grew in scope over the years, it became less and
00:20:57 ◼ ► less popular. Yeah, it's still like that, right? Because iTunes is now just this giant mess on
00:21:02 ◼ ► Windows because it's been broken up into its constituent parts and rethought for macOS.
00:21:08 ◼ ► Right. So now it doesn't even have the focus of Mac designers trying to at least, you know,
00:21:13 ◼ ► want to work with your photos on Windows, just open up iTunes. Like, why would I do that? No.
00:21:18 ◼ ► So I don't even know if an Android version of Apple Podcasts would help, because if it doesn't
00:21:29 ◼ ► The only thing that would pull it would be something like, you know, to subscribe to this
00:21:33 ◼ ► podcast, you need Apple Podcasts for Android. And then so how does, who is promoting that where
00:21:39 ◼ ► millions of Android users suddenly download the app? Or does Apple do Android specific? I mean,
00:21:45 ◼ ► I don't know. You can't figure out how people would get it. So an Apple Podcast would have to be
00:21:51 ◼ ► huge. Like, Apple TV+ is a great example, though, Jon, because I was researching, you know,
00:21:56 ◼ ► I've written a million books now. So I've always got like, whenever Apple breathes, I have to like,
00:21:59 ◼ ► go back and update four different books. And so I was looking at Take Control of Apple ID. This is
00:22:03 ◼ ► one of my favorite books because I wrote it because Joe Kissel and I were kicking around,
00:22:07 ◼ ► like, what's the next book idea? It's like, what's the pain points like Apple ID? So I wrote a book
00:22:12 ◼ ► about, you know, here's how to solve half the book is solving problems. But so I was digging into
00:22:17 ◼ ► Apple TV+ for an update. And I was like, okay, what platforms can you use it on? And the answer
00:22:21 ◼ ► is like, goddamn everything. It is the most ridiculously well supported thing Apple has
00:22:28 ◼ ► ever made. I think arguably, you could probably play it on a Android watch with a browser in it.
00:22:33 ◼ ► Like, you know, it's, it's any, it's practically any browser, any platform, any smart TV with the
00:22:40 ◼ ► right support, like Apple TV+ works everywhere because they've got the content poll, I want to
00:22:45 ◼ ► watch Ted Lasso, I need Apple TV+, let me watch another thing I want to and Apple says yes, where
00:22:50 ◼ ► most of the time, Apple says no. So that's what they'd have to do with podcasts have compelling
00:22:55 ◼ ► original content, or exclusive content that was so compelling that people sought it out and they
00:23:00 ◼ ► downloaded in the millions onto their Android or phones or Windows devices. I mean, Ted Lasso,
00:23:07 ◼ ► I don't know, I suspect Ted Lasso resulted in, you know, I want to say like a million Apple TV+
00:23:12 ◼ ► subscriptions or installations or whatever of things. I wonder I wonder I mean, and that was
00:23:17 ◼ ► one of the early announcements too, right? That was was that one of the maybe there's more
00:23:21 ◼ ► announcements in those first five minutes that I'm giving them credit for they pre announced that the
00:23:25 ◼ ► next season will start in July. There was my family's day holy cow, we were just like, the
00:23:31 ◼ ► produce, you know, one of the producers is on Twitter. And of course, as you can on Twitter,
00:23:35 ◼ ► you're like, hey, what's the next season coming? He's like, oh, it'll be this fall. Don't worry.
00:23:38 ◼ ► Like he said this week ago, like it's coming. We've done it like Jesus. And then when it was July,
00:23:42 ◼ ► like, oh, yeah, don't wait till September for it. It is funny. I wish I could give credit. It's sort
00:23:48 ◼ ► of an obvious observation. But somebody, somebody put it so well, which was that, hey, remember when
00:23:54 ◼ ► before Apple TV plus came out, and there were a handful of stories, and like the only example of
00:24:00 ◼ ► original content we had was the carpool karaoke. And, and the weird no offense to it. And the weird
00:24:06 ◼ ► show about it was like, app, I forget what it's called Planet of the Apps. Remember this? Oh,
00:24:12 ◼ ► yeah. Gwyneth Paltrow and some other people. Yeah, what's gonna be the show that's on network TV
00:24:17 ◼ ► that's like this? We're like inventors come in with their crazy ideas. Shark Tank. Yeah,
00:24:22 ◼ ► Shark Tank. So it was like Shark Tank for apps, but like with Gary Vaynerchuk, who I love, but
00:24:27 ◼ ► oh, yeah, yeah. But it was not it was not people who took and I didn't take it. I didn't think
00:24:34 ◼ ► like, well, I think these two shows are probably emblematic of everything Apple will come up with.
00:24:39 ◼ ► I thought they I just thought they can't be. But it's not an unreasonable. It wasn't unreasonable
00:24:47 ◼ ► for people to jump to the conclusion that maybe they were emblematic of what Apple was coming up
00:24:51 ◼ ► with. And while before any of these shows came out, there were a couple of stories. I think
00:24:56 ◼ ► the Wall Street Journal, I think Trip Mickel had the one that was the most widely reported
00:25:01 ◼ ► that Apple was, Eddy Cue and Tim Cook were being too hands on. And we're giving these notes. Tim
00:25:07 ◼ ► Cook in particular was giving notes that they should, can't you make this nicer? And, and
00:25:12 ◼ ► that's right. Then there was the rumors be no new nudity, but no, no adult themes or something
00:25:17 ◼ ► where it was all going to be nicey nicey stuff that kind of came out. Yeah, something like that.
00:25:22 ◼ ► And it's like, and in hindsight, that's really has not played out at all. Yet, nobody's attracted it.
00:25:27 ◼ ► I was watching an episode of Dickinson and the other people in the room and I was like,
00:25:30 ◼ ► Holy, okay, I need to turn this off. I haven't seen that yet. But it's, it's really good. And
00:25:36 ◼ ► it's, it's a me, it's actually totally amazing. It's an HBO. It's the kind of thing you'd be
00:25:40 ◼ ► like, Oh, you can only see that on something like HBO before, which is a lot of what you say about
00:25:44 ◼ ► Apple TV. Yeah. Servant is the one I think of. I haven't seen that. It's well, we're addicted to it.
00:25:50 ◼ ► I think it's pretty good. It's interesting because it's a horror drama. But the episodes are only a
00:25:57 ◼ ► half an hour. And I find that format to be fascinating. And yes, like all streaming things.
00:26:04 ◼ ► And again, what a boon to the creative arts. Sometimes they're 33 minutes, sometimes they're
00:26:08 ◼ ► 27 minutes. You don't have to make it exactly 27 colon 00 every single episode. Oh, it's been so
00:26:16 ◼ ► great. I have so many series on different streaming services. That's I think it's excellent point.
00:26:19 ◼ ► Right. But there are some really, really sick, twisted, gory, perverted stuff in servant. And
00:26:26 ◼ ► it's like, I think, I think people say like, Apple had never made any kind of content of its own,
00:26:32 ◼ ► like the closest thing was stuff they did during the Apple keynote. And it's like, and now we're a
00:26:36 ◼ ► studio. It's like, well, what's that going to be like? It's going to be like car park. It's going
00:26:39 ◼ ► to be these very limited things. And then they've, they've totally proven us wrong. Those who thought
00:26:44 ◼ ► it was going to be somewhat boring or anodyne. Yeah, totally. I, you know, I think they hired
00:26:49 ◼ ► good people and let them do their work, you know, which is sort of what Eddie Q said in response to
00:26:54 ◼ ► those accusations. He's like, I'm not giving people notes. I don't, what do I know about
00:26:57 ◼ ► his, his response paraphrasing, but he was like, I don't know anything about making TV shows. So I
00:27:02 ◼ ► found good people who know how to make, who know how to make good TV shows. And they're opposite
00:27:07 ◼ ► of Quibi, right? Is that they, it's totally the opposite of Quibi. But anyway, I, how funny though,
00:27:14 ◼ ► is it that even though there are several counter examples of shows with, you know, truly adult
00:27:19 ◼ ► content and themes, that, that the breakthrough hit of Apple TV plus is this show that is truly about
00:27:27 ◼ ► the nicest guy and feeling good about yourself in a way that is not corny and it, it, it, it is kind
00:27:37 ◼ ► of exactly what, you know, yeah. There's a lot of F word in it, but you know, that's okay. They didn't
00:27:43 ◼ ► sign that, but no, yeah, it's like, it's a, it's like deconstructing toxic masculinity. Like it's
00:27:48 ◼ ► a show that's both incredibly enjoyable and also shows, it's like a blueprint of being a good man
00:27:54 ◼ ► and becoming a better man. And we just watch it and we're just, we've watched it twice as a family
00:27:59 ◼ ► here and we're just in awe of it. And you know, everyone is ultimately redeemable and I have
00:28:04 ◼ ► feelings about season two, like, like redemptions that are yet to come. Maybe with the exception of
00:28:09 ◼ ► the guy, the old guy who used to own the team. Rupert played by the wonderful, with his Anthony
00:28:14 ◼ ► head. No, yeah, Tony. It's the guy from Buffy, the Vampire Slayer and the, the Folgers instant
00:28:20 ◼ ► coffee commercial. But it wouldn't surprise, wouldn't surprise me if he sees, if we, if we
00:28:25 ◼ ► see another side of him in season two, right? Right. Because they're sending us, right. It's
00:28:28 ◼ ► going to be, it's, it's one of the best TV. I mean, I put it up there with Good Place. It's
00:28:32 ◼ ► one of the best pieces of TV made the last few years. It's, it's really unbelievable. And you
00:28:37 ◼ ► can just see, I, and I, it's, I'm not going to pretend like I know Tim Cook well, but it's like,
00:28:42 ◼ ► he wears part of his, he's very private, but you can just tell that he loves Ted Lasso, right? You
00:28:48 ◼ ► can just tell he just loves it. It's kind of a show written for him, isn't it? I didn't think
00:28:53 ◼ ► about that. It's about football and football and fish out of water and being good to other people
00:29:00 ◼ ► and, and being creative. And it's like, he must've got like three episodes of watching it and just
00:29:04 ◼ ► been like this, this, this is what I was talking about. Oh man. That's great. Yeah. It's a,
00:29:11 ◼ ► what a delight during pandemic year to have that. All right. Speaking of a delight, let me take a
00:29:14 ◼ ► break and thank our first sponsor. Oh, I don't want to put down any of the other sponsors on
00:29:19 ◼ ► this episode. And I don't want to put on, put down any previous sponsors. I love all of the sponsors
00:29:25 ◼ ► of the talk show, but Yes, Please might be at the top of the list. If you make your own coffee at
00:29:34 ◼ ► home. And at this point, honestly, it's the whole saga, who doesn't? You've got to try fresh roasted
00:29:40 ◼ ► beans from the crew at Yes, Please. They spell it. It's pronounced Yes, Please, but it's spelled
00:29:44 ◼ ► Y E S P L Z. They are long time coffee nerds. They're founders, Tony Knesne. You might know
00:29:55 ◼ ► Knesne. I've got a note. I've got a note. Knesne. You wouldn't believe it. He's, he's a friend of
00:30:02 ◼ ► mine. I'm sorry to interrupt. Well, maybe it is. I don't know. I don't know. I could be wrong. I'm
00:30:06 ◼ ► sorry. I'm totally wrong. He's better known as Tonks. And you might remember the old Tonks coffee
00:30:10 ◼ ► company. Also his partner, Sumi Ali. They are veterans of coffee's quote, third wave scene. I
00:30:18 ◼ ► don't even know what that means, but they are fanatical about roasting great coffee. Tonks coffee
00:30:22 ◼ ► was great back in the day. Yes, Please coffee today is even better. I honest to God do not know
00:30:28 ◼ ► how I would have gotten through the last year without Yes, Please getting delivered to the
00:30:32 ◼ ► house, especially about a year ago when it was really sort of like, Hey, you don't even know if
00:30:37 ◼ ► it's safe to go outside, blah, blah, blah. Ah, what a relief. It is fantastic coffee. I am
00:30:42 ◼ ► drinking some right now. I actually brewed this. I, to keep up with Glenn's energy, I had to brew
00:30:51 ◼ ► here's the thing about this. They're total, total coffee nerds, but that part of their nerdiness is
00:30:56 ◼ ► they honestly believe that brewing a perfect cup of coffee should be easier than making like a box
00:31:02 ◼ ► of Kraft macaroni and cheese. Just hot, really hot water, fresh ground coffee. There's a couple
00:31:08 ◼ ► simple, simple ways to make it. It is so easy. They're not trying to tell you to buy some kind
00:31:13 ◼ ► of $500 gadget and spend half an hour just to get like a tiny little espresso thing of coffee. No,
00:31:20 ◼ ► I brew a whole pot of coffee. It takes me like four minutes and like 30 seconds of that is paying
00:31:25 ◼ ► attention. But man, their coffee is great. What you do, you sign up, go over to yesplease.coffee.
00:31:31 ◼ ► What a domain name. Y-E-S-P-L-Z.coffee. And just use the promo code fireball. And you can take
00:31:39 ◼ ► five bucks off your first shipment. Banish bad coffee from your kitchen. Give yesplease.coffee
00:31:44 ◼ ► a try today. It's a subscription service. You could just buy some if you want to try it. But
00:31:48 ◼ ► the subscription service, that's where the money's at. That's the thing. Because then it just shows
00:31:53 ◼ ► up. You figure out your schedule. And if you guess wrong, if you're like, ah, two, like one 12 ounce
00:31:59 ◼ ► bag every two weeks and like you're running low, switch to like the bigger bag. Maybe try 16.
00:32:05 ◼ ► Or maybe if it's too much coffee for you, you can switch to like every three weeks or something like
00:32:09 ◼ ► that. It's easy to adjust on the fly. You don't have to like cancel and then resubscribe. You just
00:32:14 ◼ ► log in and you adjust the frequency. And if you're going away or something like that because you've
00:32:19 ◼ ► got your vaccination and you're ready to actually leave the house, you can just put it on pause.
00:32:23 ◼ ► It is so easy to manage. You get great coffee just sent to your house on a schedule that is right for
00:32:30 ◼ ► you. Again, I'm drinking it right now. Go to yesplease.coffee and remember that promo code
00:32:37 ◼ ► FIREBALL. Can I just say, I met Tonks in Seattle over 11 years ago, I think now. I wrote the very
00:32:44 ◼ ► first coffee shop turning Wi-Fi off to promote people talking and free up table story. I wrote
00:32:50 ◼ ► the first. I'm going to stake that. I wrote the first and Tony was the brewer there, the roaster
00:32:55 ◼ ► there. And I met, that's when I met him. And anyway, but it was only 11 years ago. Maybe it
00:33:00 ◼ ► was a little longer. It was for the New York Times and a local reporter, the guy who worked for the,
00:33:10 ◼ ► alley. You should look into it." And I wrote something on a blog and my editor at the New
00:33:14 ◼ ► York Times, where I was writing at the time said, "Hey, you should write that for us," which is the
00:33:17 ◼ ► weird, it never happened before or since. And I wrote it for them and it went viral and the story
00:33:21 ◼ ► got ripped off and translated into Bulgarian and like running a Bulgarian newspaper and everyone
00:33:26 ◼ ► just kept calling this poor cafe and, you know, "What are you doing?" And then anyway, and then
00:33:30 ◼ ► like for the next 10 years, it seemed like every week there was a "cafe turns off internet" story.
00:33:36 ◼ ► And then, you know, then everyone had self-access and hot spots. But anyway, that's Tonks origin
00:33:41 ◼ ► story. It was it. Yeah. We had a coffee shop like that here and right next to, you know,
00:33:45 ◼ ► really high traffic spot next to a park. And they, the first one I remember in Philadelphia
00:33:50 ◼ ► that had it. And I know that it sounds like, "Oh, roll your eyes. It's a bunch of hipsters who don't
00:33:54 ◼ ► want," but it really was appropriate because they were busy without people working there.
00:33:59 ◼ ► Oh, yeah. And it's not to say that there's anything wrong with working in coffee shops.
00:34:04 ◼ ► I've worked in coffee shops who hasn't, you know, it's great. But it's, it wasn't what they were
00:34:08 ◼ ► going for, right? Like they're, they wanted a culture. And it was just, you know, relatively,
00:34:14 ◼ ► it's still there, relatively small coffee shop. And if they could fill it up with people who are
00:34:18 ◼ ► there to socialize and talk to people they know, you know. Yeah. It's just funny, funny trends.
00:34:23 ◼ ► But anyway, remember coffee, remember going into coffee shops? Well, I'm back now. I'm,
00:34:29 ◼ ► I'm going into coffee shops. Oh, man. I'm getting close. Oh, we're back. Oh, that's great. I love
00:34:39 ◼ ► Yeah, I was intrigued by that. It's just a weird, it's like, Apple's so weird. It's like,
00:34:57 ◼ ► that I would get the, because usually when I do that, my readers are so helpful and it's just my
00:35:02 ◼ ► lazy way of doing research, but cricket's chirping on this. Like, how, it sounds like what they're
00:35:08 ◼ ► doing is something new, but is that Apple hyperbole or no? Like, is this different than like my wife's
00:35:14 ◼ ► and my joint Amex account? And if so, how? I think it's, I think it is, I think what they're
00:35:20 ◼ ► emphasizing is that, like normally with a credit card, I mean, you know this, right? So normally
00:35:25 ◼ ► the credit card, you open an account, you typically don't open it jointly. I mean, sometimes you have
00:35:29 ◼ ► to put down both parties' income in a married couple or whatever, and you can get extra cards
00:35:44 ◼ ► Yeah, and I think this is more, like they really are trying to make this like a family card. So,
00:35:53 ◼ ► like charts and graphs and data, and it's, they keep talking about co-owners instead of like a
00:35:58 ◼ ► primary owner and sharing. So I think it is a little, I think in effect it will seem the same.
00:36:04 ◼ ► I think in nature it's actually a bit different and probably affects even like your credit rating,
00:36:15 ◼ ► I mean, it really, you know, if you've got a family like you and I do, I think that's the
00:36:18 ◼ ► issue. It's like if you have kids, this transforms how you manage like the budgets and controls and
00:36:26 ◼ ► what they can do with a credit card. So it's much more of a training credit card than most credit
00:36:31 ◼ ► card companies offer for any card. So that's kind of, I think that's my take, but I don't think we've
00:36:37 ◼ ► seen the impact of it yet because Apple has let you, you know, they've added those a ways to
00:36:42 ◼ ► set up purchase amounts and so forth for people already in your family. And so as a result,
00:36:48 ◼ ► this is like an extension of that. I don't think it seems as different. It's just all managed on
00:36:55 ◼ ► Yeah. And you know, I mean, I don't know, I gave him a hard time and it was like, what's next,
00:37:01 ◼ ► you know, when they announced that they're getting into credit card business, payday loans at the
00:37:05 ◼ ► Apple store, I, you know, and I still am ambivalent about it. And I still feel like if there's an area
00:37:13 ◼ ► where they should really be able to brag and lead the way it should be on the APRs that they offer.
00:37:44 ◼ ► you could go back to like when they made up the word usury, you know, that yeah, 22% yeah,
00:37:52 ◼ ► I don't get it. You know, they've got, so the credit card companies and Apple specifically
00:37:56 ◼ ► in its financial analysis of our transactions has more information and can do more data
00:38:01 ◼ ► transformation than whatever. And they cannot manage risk enough to say, here's a 3.99%
00:38:06 ◼ ► credit card because we trust you or 6% or whatever. They cannot manage risk well enough
00:38:10 ◼ ► to issue that to people. That seems bizarre. Something that would be a reasonable amount
00:38:16 ◼ ► of interest to carry. I mean, it's, and again, when I was younger, I had a ridiculous amount
00:38:22 ◼ ► of credit card debt at one point. I mean, never enough to like, actually like get into bankruptcy,
00:38:42 ◼ ► I definitely did it. But it's like, if you can choose not to, you'd be insane. Even at the best
00:38:53 ◼ ► Pete: PayPal does better. I know you get these unprovoked things from PayPal. I have a business
00:38:58 ◼ ► account there and they're like, Hey, do you want a credit line of, you know, I don't know, it's like
00:39:02 ◼ ► $2,500 and we'll give you, you know, a hundred dollars if you use it. And the interest rate is
00:39:08 ◼ ► like 7%. And I was, I always pay off balances on the business side, particularly. And I was like,
00:39:14 ◼ ► yeah, I'm about to, you know, for my tiny type museum project, I was like, Oh, I need to send
00:39:18 ◼ ► somebody here a buck. So I'm like, yes, I'll take a hundred dollars free. And you know,
00:39:21 ◼ ► it impacts your credit limit or rating a little bit or whatever. So I took it, they gave me a
00:39:25 ◼ ► hundred bucks. I was like, I think it was a hundred dollars. And I paid it off within the
00:39:28 ◼ ► period of time that it was 0%. So I didn't pay anything for it. They just gave me money. And I
00:39:32 ◼ ► was like, well, you trusted me. You gave me a low interest rate and you gave me money to do this.
00:39:40 ◼ ► Uh, well, it's funny. I don't want to turn this into an episode about credit building up your
00:39:44 ◼ ► credit, uh, because I don't really know, but, but we bought a house like five years ago, four or
00:39:49 ◼ ► five years ago, and we were going through the mortgage process. We only had my wife and I only
00:39:55 ◼ ► had one credit card and we'd only had that one credit card and American express card for like,
00:40:00 ◼ ► uh, I don't know, eight, nine years. And they were like, well, you should have more credit cards. And
00:40:06 ◼ ► I, I grew up thinking that that was, that was the, you know, that having lots of credit cards was bad
00:40:11 ◼ ► credit. Like, Ooh, red flag. This guy's got six, six lines of credit from six different banks.
00:40:15 ◼ ► No, no, they want you to, you show your credit worthy by having credit that you're not using.
00:40:20 ◼ ► So you want to have, probably want you to have like $60,000 worth of credit limits across your
00:40:25 ◼ ► cards. And you're using like 10 or 20 of it at any given time or none, but you have to have them
00:40:31 ◼ ► open. It's just, it's the weirdest thing. You're more credit worthy when you have too much debt
00:40:37 ◼ ► than you are when you don't. I remember my wife was talking to this woman from the mortgage
00:40:40 ◼ ► company. She's like, well, don't you, what about like a target card or something? And my wife is
00:40:43 ◼ ► like, are you out of your mind? We're buying a house. What, why would it matter if I have a
00:40:48 ◼ ► target card? You know, it was crazy. And we're like, well, wait, what should we do? Should I
00:40:54 ◼ ► mean like, do, should we get another credit card? And they're like, Oh no, not now. Not when we're
00:40:59 ◼ ► actually looking at you for a mortgage. And it all worked out, you know, and, and, you know, it, it,
00:41:04 ◼ ► it worked out in the end, but afterwards, once we had the mortgage, we were like, Oh, all right,
00:41:09 ◼ ► I guess we get to get more credit cards. And, you know, now we've got like an American Airlines one
00:41:13 ◼ ► that we only use when we're buying airfare, you know, and it's like, it's so it's all worse. And
00:41:20 ◼ ► of course I bought, I got the Apple card cause I figured I should write about it. Now I've got that.
00:41:25 ◼ ► It was so much easier when I had one credit card. Cause then I never had, I never had to think. I
00:41:29 ◼ ► never, never ever had to think just here. We were earning miles for a while. We had a United card
00:41:33 ◼ ► and we have, you know, hundreds of thousands of United miles, which we, some may will use to go
00:41:37 ◼ ► back to Europe, I hope. But I've now have cards where I get the Apple card, another one where I
00:41:41 ◼ ► get 2% for transactions and the Apple one, I'll do it whenever I can use Apple pay. And the other one
00:41:46 ◼ ► is when I have to do like an in-store and I I've got face ID on my phone. And like, so I'll put in
00:41:51 ◼ ► or tap the other card, city card and just get 2%. I'm like, I want 2% back on everything I do.
00:41:56 ◼ ► Cause I don't need miles right now. And so I'm, you know, I'm getting 2% cash back. So I'll take
00:42:00 ◼ ► that. Yeah. I was doing the thing where I was using my Apple card for all the Apple pay payments.
00:42:05 ◼ ► Cause you get 3% or whatever, or I don't know what, or you get it, you get 3% from Apple,
00:42:11 ◼ ► for Apple pay, but 3% from Apple and selected partners. So I switched to T-Mobile and I changed
00:42:17 ◼ ► it. So now I only use that card to pay my Apple bills. So like my iTunes monthly, anything I buy
00:42:22 ◼ ► from Apple, I put on that card and anything else I just don't. Cause the extra 1% just wasn't worth
00:42:27 ◼ ► it. It's like, I just, just, just let me use my one credit card anyway. Now Apple's in the credit
00:42:32 ◼ ► card business and they've improved it. What else is, what is next on the list? Air tags. Oh man.
00:42:40 ◼ ► Yeah. I'm, I'm really into this because yeah. So I I've written, you know, I've written about like,
00:42:52 ◼ ► notification thing came out. I don't get briefings from Apple that much anymore. And, and one of the
00:42:57 ◼ ► folks over there was like, Hey, you need to be heads up about this thing. Cause we know you do
00:43:01 ◼ ► this. And it's like, Oh, okay. What is it? And you know, and it's the COVID tracking business was
00:43:05 ◼ ► basically find my COVID exposure. It was the same thing. I mean, much more sophisticated and security
00:43:13 ◼ ► leaning like privacy preserving. But AirTags is basically, you know, it just realized that same
00:43:18 ◼ ► thing they built a couple of years ago, which is a distributed crowd-sourced, anonymous Bluetooth
00:43:24 ◼ ► beacon based system. But adding in ultra wide band and NFC to it and, you know, tagging it to
00:43:34 ◼ ► devices you carry with you. So it's pretty slick. I mean, it's what, I mean, I realized tiles came
00:43:41 ◼ ► up with this before, like they were the original developer of it, but there's a critical mass thing.
00:43:46 ◼ ► And it's like suddenly, you know, as Apple rolls us out, you've got, I don't know, a hundred million,
00:43:51 ◼ ► well, probably hundreds of millions of devices worldwide that will send back information about
00:43:57 ◼ ► it is things. It is in fact a billion devices that, that billion that can be qualified. Yeah.
00:44:02 ◼ ► Which is crazy. Like somebody that's wild. Yeah. Talking to Apple last week, they're like,
00:44:06 ◼ ► I know it sounds crazy, but it's actually up to a billion devices that are participating.
00:44:12 ◼ ► It is. That's amazing. It is truly a fascinating system. And it's not unlike a lot of crypto type
00:44:19 ◼ ► stuff. It's not even that hard to sort of see as a lay person, you know, get up in front of a
00:44:25 ◼ ► whiteboard and start talking, all right, these identifiers rotate the identifiers. There's no
00:44:30 ◼ ► backwards table mapping the identifier to use. So even if you know the identifier of an AirTag,
00:44:38 ◼ ► it's just a unique thing. And then it calls home and home just says, okay, AirTag 1-1-1-2-3-4
00:44:47 ◼ ► is here. Nobody knows whose it is. And you know, it's, it's somebody walks by with an iPhone and
00:44:55 ◼ ► the iPhone picks up the beacon. It's like, oh yeah, there it is. It's right there. Yeah. You know,
00:44:58 ◼ ► it's literally like if you'd written a tag number on a piece of equipment, you own your little pink
00:45:02 ◼ ► tag, you stuck on it and said 1-7-5-3-9-2 whatever. Right. And someone, if they found it,
00:45:07 ◼ ► they picked it up and they go like, oh, and they just like mail it into some central address,
00:45:11 ◼ ► postage paid. And that central address is like, oh, that belongs to it's even more secure or
00:45:15 ◼ ► private than that. That belongs to Glenn. And they call me up and say, Hey, we found it. Or more
00:45:19 ◼ ► likely I would call up and say, Hey, do you have an item? And it's got this number on it. They say,
00:45:22 ◼ ► yeah. Would you send that to me? Sure. I mean, it's, it's practically that simple with more
00:45:26 ◼ ► cryptography and anonymity, but it's kind of like a, you know, a global lost and found system where
00:45:34 ◼ ► the person finding it has no idea what they've found. They don't touch it. You know, it's just,
00:45:38 ◼ ► they don't even know their device is transmitting these anonymous tags back to Apple. And the person
00:45:43 ◼ ► who lost it doesn't have to disclose anything about themselves in order to claim it. Just the
00:45:47 ◼ ► proof that they, you know, essentially they tell your machine tells Apple when you're using the
00:45:51 ◼ ► FindMy system on your end, it tells Apple like, hey, cryptographically, you should release any
00:45:56 ◼ ► information that matches this pattern. And Apple says, that's great. We don't know what's in it,
00:45:59 ◼ ► but here you go. We know there's a match. And that's the only thing they know about you,
00:46:05 ◼ ► Uh, I know that Apple has to keep rotating some of their big messaging things because you can't
00:46:12 ◼ ► just keep repeating yourself time after time. But you know, for a while they had the 1000 no's for
00:46:17 ◼ ► every yes that they emphasize once or twice. And then for a while, I'm not sure which came first,
00:46:22 ◼ ► but there was, that's great. There was a couple of things that was only Apple, right? Only Apple
00:46:26 ◼ ► could do blank. But this, this FindMy network, I really do want to say is sort of an only Apple
00:46:33 ◼ ► thing. Like who else could do this? I mean, Google has the technical chops for sure. But I don't know
00:46:44 ◼ ► if it's feasible for them to work that into Android without designing the actual Android
00:46:52 ◼ ► handsets for everybody around the world. That's my thinking. It's also, I think the ultra wideband
00:46:56 ◼ ► aspect of it is, you know, is a huge deal, even though, excuse me, even though it's only part of
00:47:03 ◼ ► the product. I mean, I guess, you know, this is like, this is a multi-purpose or multi-part
00:47:08 ◼ ► device. It's, you know, here's how you find something that's nearby to you because of ultra
00:47:12 ◼ ► wide, ultra wide band. And then there's the Bluetooth LE part, which people could replicate,
00:47:17 ◼ ► but right. I mean, so tiles, and again, no offense to the company, they came up with a very clever
00:47:21 ◼ ► idea. They implemented it and they just, you know, do they, I don't know what critical mass they
00:47:29 ◼ ► running tiles app and that's what they needed to make this work. And so I know why they're
00:47:36 ◼ ► peeved about it. And I think with this in place and Apple opening it up to third parties, we're
00:47:40 ◼ ► going to see, you know, does Apple cut them some deal? Do they settle and just say, look, we're
00:47:45 ◼ ► going to make you a feature, put them in the app store or Apple store and whatever. But this is,
00:47:50 ◼ ► it doesn't diminish the utility of a third party product that Apple's selling this because Apple
00:47:54 ◼ ► is selling their own very specific thing. There's not even a key ring holder on the device, you know,
00:48:01 ◼ ► so it's very idiosyncratic version of it. Kyle's complaint is, you know, and they're, they're
00:48:08 ◼ ► in cahoots with Epic, you know, with the app, what's it, app Alliance, whatever it's called.
00:48:20 ◼ ► App Fairness Alliance? Is that, is that right? It's yeah, it's something generic, but right,
00:48:27 ◼ ► but you know, their contention right is that Apple is denying them. Oh, Coalition for App Fairness.
00:48:33 ◼ ► Okay. Yeah, there we go. So it's people's Judean history front. Epic, Spotify, Spotify,
00:48:44 ◼ ► antitrust arguments or abuse of their position as the platform vendor. Like it sucks to be Tile,
00:48:53 ◼ ► but that doesn't mean like, there's only two other ways to take Tile at their word. One would be to
00:49:00 ◼ ► allow Tile to write and install system level software for the iPhone. But even if, you know,
00:49:10 ◼ ► like in Mac parlance, like system extensions, right? So that they could run in the background
00:49:16 ◼ ► and do things that, that only Apple can do because they, they can, you know, like when you bring your
00:49:22 ◼ ► AirTag next to your phone and you get the little pop-up from the bottom that's nicely animated,
00:49:29 ◼ ► a third party can't do that. You third party can't install something that is just always listening
00:49:34 ◼ ► so that if, if your product is brought within an inch or two of it, no matter which app you're in,
00:49:40 ◼ ► it brings it up. That's just not how iOS software works. And even if Apple were to loosen rules for
00:49:48 ◼ ► iOS and allow system level extensions like that, which they're not going to do, or if they granted
00:49:54 ◼ ► a one-time exception to Tile so that Tile could do it, which again is even less likely, it still
00:50:01 ◼ ► doesn't give Tile the billion device network because what is Apple going to actually bake
00:50:07 ◼ ► Tile's code into the version of iOS that's pushed out to all billion users? No, of course not. It
00:50:14 ◼ ► doesn't make any sense. So there's no way, like it sucks if you're Tile, but this is the sort of
00:50:19 ◼ ► feature that is so much better if it's built into the system. And there's nothing, if you don't, if
00:50:23 ◼ ► you don't own the system, there's nothing you can do about it. Yeah, and Apple allowing third-party
00:50:29 ◼ ► access to the Find My system is the right solution. And I think you could argue, you being Tiles or
00:50:35 ◼ ► you being a reasonable person, maybe Apple should have done this, you know, maybe this should have
00:50:39 ◼ ► been considered at the launch when they started the crowd-sourced thing that seemed very Tiles-like
00:50:44 ◼ ► without their own tracker, they should have said at that point, our goal ultimately is to allow
00:50:48 ◼ ► third-party access that doesn't violate the privacy of users and yet provide, or drain batteries,
00:50:53 ◼ ► and yet provides the same experience that we have in our MFI program and our blah, blah, blah.
00:50:58 ◼ ► They could have said that, and then they still could have taken, you know, eight to 15 months
00:51:02 ◼ ► to build it out. And I think it took a bit longer than that. I think they announced it last
00:51:05 ◼ ► summer, right? That they were going to allow access. And then the recent announcement was,
00:51:11 ◼ ► "Hey, we have partners now, but they're still not available, but they will be soon. And then,
00:51:20 ◼ ► and may be provoked by Tiles' actions, this is probably the ideal outcome, except that it's
00:51:29 ◼ ► Pete: I mean, it's a never, it's an evergreen topic in tech. And I think it seems like it's
00:51:36 ◼ ► different now because we're talking about these big tech companies like Google and Amazon and Apple
00:51:43 ◼ ► as being more influential than at any point in the past, certainly more than, you know, 15,
00:51:48 ◼ ► 20 years ago, right? Now, you know, ExxonMobil isn't the biggest company in the world. They're
00:51:53 ◼ ► not even on the list. It's all of these companies that own these platforms. Their influence is
00:51:57 ◼ ► greater. But the issue is still kind of the same. I mean, we in the Apple community still call it
00:52:02 ◼ ► "Sherlock-ing," where, you know, there was a, Apple came out with a product called "Sherlock,"
00:52:10 ◼ ► and it was sort of like desktop search. And then there was a third-party app called Watson
00:52:15 ◼ ► that did it a lot better. And then like a year or nine months later, the next version of "Sherlock"
00:52:21 ◼ ► was a lot more like Watson and just, you know, copiously borrowed good ideas. And because it
00:52:28 ◼ ► was built in, kind of put an end to Watson as a feasible product. It happens over and over again.
00:52:35 ◼ ► I've written about, I remember the, remember the confabulator thing. They called them gadgets.
00:52:46 ◼ ► but sort of like HTML. And you'd use Java. Easy to make little gadgets that you could put all
00:52:59 ◼ ► And you've argued about, I think you've written this exact thing. So tell me if I'm quoting you
00:53:03 ◼ ► back to you, which is, there are some features that are obvious that Apple will eventually
00:53:08 ◼ ► implement and may choose not to. But if you build a feature like that into a piece of hardware
00:53:13 ◼ ► software, you're going to get Sherlock, probably, because it's a matter of time. But there's other
00:53:17 ◼ ► stuff that's non-obvious. And when Apple does those, then it's like, "Oh, did they really
00:53:22 ◼ ► have to kill that company?" Because it's not a core thing, and it's not obvious that it makes
00:53:26 ◼ ► sense for Apple. And I think we have a lot more Sherlocking of obvious features. And Sherlock
00:53:32 ◼ ► wasn't one of those. Like Apple, the things that Sherlock did, Apple didn't offer most of that
00:53:36 ◼ ► stuff, and then they suddenly did. They like put out a portmanteau of things that were very Sherlock.
00:53:48 ◼ ► with something like this. Like, is AirTag trying to Sherlock tiles? And that would be true if Apple
00:53:57 ◼ ► wasn't also opening up its ecosystem. Like, did Apple wait to release AirTag until the point at
00:54:03 ◼ ► which it could legitimately say, "We have a licensing program into play place, and we have
00:54:07 ◼ ► people in the pipeline who will be able to also release stuff that is an equal player in our
00:54:12 ◼ ► ecosystem?" And again, that could have been provoked by the threats and the congressional
00:54:17 ◼ ► hearings and whatever, but that gives them some kind of deniability because they're not killing
00:54:21 ◼ ► tile. Tile could easily compete with its feature set and form factor and other things with AirTag.
00:54:29 ◼ ► Well, I don't know, though. It seems like they're, you know, they could. I do think that that's why
00:54:34 ◼ ► AirTags took so long to come out. I mean, I know that it's been rumored for like two years,
00:54:38 ◼ ► and there were signs of it in the OS from like two years ago. It really—and reports from six,
00:54:44 ◼ ► seven, eight months ago from rumor sites that, "Hey, the AirTags seem ready to go," you know,
00:54:50 ◼ ► and there were pictures of them. And the ones that came out last week look exactly like the ones that
00:54:55 ◼ ► were supposedly ready to come out. So it honestly passes the Occam's razor sniff test that they were
00:55:02 ◼ ► waiting for the made-for-iPhone third-party thing to be ready, which doesn't seem like it was ready
00:55:11 ◼ ► No, it's true. In Apple, I should say, this is the, I think, the key factor, though, and this
00:55:15 ◼ ► is where I think you'd have to say, you know, what's fair here is Apple did remove tile from
00:55:19 ◼ ► the retail stores. So that was like a year and a half ago. So I think was that an issue, you know,
00:55:27 ◼ ► was that retaliation against tile being involved and trying to get the U.S. government involved?
00:55:33 ◼ ► And so there is something there. Like if tile became—so let's say, so here's the scenario,
00:55:37 ◼ ► is if tile became part of this, you know, licensing program and could use the Find My Network,
00:55:43 ◼ ► would Apple, you know, A, would Apple undo it? And B, if so, would Apple stock them in the
00:55:48 ◼ ► Apple stores again, just as even a nice thing? Like, here's another product that does this.
00:55:52 ◼ ► Like, here's our Find My selection of things from seven different companies, including tile.
00:55:59 ◼ ► $4,000 VanMoof bikes in the store? I don't know. But they did promote, I mean, they promoted the
00:56:08 ◼ ► three products that came out was the VanMoof bikes, which apparently are very nice bikes.
00:56:12 ◼ ► I don't want to make fun of them. A couple of people wrote to me, they say they have them,
00:56:15 ◼ ► and they're apparently very nice e-bikes. Belkin has Soundform Freedom True wireless earbuds,
00:56:22 ◼ ► clearly AirPod competitors. They're AirPods from Belkin. But they have Find My support.
00:56:30 ◼ ► And the Chipolo One Spot item finder, which is, that's the thing that's like a tile tracker. So
00:56:37 ◼ ► I don't know if they're going to put them in the stores, but, you know, it's just the thing.
00:56:42 ◼ ► Like Benedict Evans has written about this, and he's dug up a long time, I don't even know if it
00:56:49 ◼ ► was about this one in particular, but this issue of when the platform maker builds a feature in.
00:56:55 ◼ ► I mean, my rule of thumb is if it makes sense, if it would be better built into the system,
00:57:12 ◼ ► truly obscure, even if it would be built into the system, why would they, you know, they can't build
00:57:17 ◼ ► every idea in there. But, you know, for something like this, like the AirPod support, or these
00:57:24 ◼ ► AirTags now, it is worth building into the system, and it makes it better. And it's, you know,
00:57:29 ◼ ► it stinks if you're the one who had the idea. But if you've got an idea, even if it's just software,
00:57:34 ◼ ► and it's a utility, and it's like, oh, man, I mean, like, look at like the Launch Bar type
00:57:45 ◼ ► - Even though Spotlight is now works like that. You hit Command + Space, you type something,
00:57:51 ◼ ► you hit Return, and boom, you get what you're looking for. And the trick is, why are Launch
00:57:57 ◼ ► Bar and Alfred still successful? Because they do so much more. They do so much more that it
00:58:02 ◼ ► wouldn't make sense for Apple to build into the system version. Whereas the concept of a tile
00:58:08 ◼ ► tracker is so simple. Here's a little square, you put a battery in it, you match it up with the app
00:58:14 ◼ ► on your phone, and then you can put this tile on a backpack or in a suitcase or wherever you want,
00:58:18 ◼ ► and it'll tell you where it is. That's it. There is, you know, it's wonderfully simple,
00:58:23 ◼ ► but there is no level to go Launch Bar style. Oh, and you can write your own custom extensions
00:58:34 ◼ ► - Yeah, you don't need much more except if you could do, you know, something that requires a
00:58:49 ◼ ► they slipped in her purse because she started to wander. It was surprisingly compact, it charged
00:58:54 ◼ ► fast, and it did GPS and cellular and gave you location information, but that's not what
00:59:00 ◼ ► everybody needs. That's a specialized product for help. - I do not mean to laugh, but isn't it,
00:59:08 ◼ ► 'cause I've had relatives, you know, who've gone through similar type things. My mom's aunt used to,
00:59:16 ◼ ► I mean, she must've been 80. She kept thinking she was late for school and her husband would,
00:59:21 ◼ ► and 'cause she stayed in the same town, so it was, the elementary school was the one she had gone to
00:59:27 ◼ ► 70 years ago, but she'd be there like on a Saturday morning in the rain in her nightgown there.
00:59:37 ◼ ► - Yeah, yeah, that's right, that's right. It's amazing what parts of you you keep with you
00:59:43 ◼ ► she's probably a woman who, you know, when she was younger, she'd never, she'd no more likely
00:59:48 ◼ ► leave without her purse than leave, you know, without shoes on. - That's right, yeah, so yeah,
00:59:55 ◼ ► so this is not a solution for that. But I think, you know, I think that's the point is I think the
01:00:00 ◼ ► tile and these little devices are useful with a very specific limited function. And, you know,
01:00:18 ◼ ► - All right, all right, let me play devil's advocate though. What product they make should
01:00:22 ◼ ► have a replaceable battery but doesn't? This one has to, right? 'Cause what else are they gonna do,
01:00:27 ◼ ► put a lightning charger on it? That doesn't make any sense. - Yeah, yeah, it'd be a lightning
01:00:30 ◼ ► charger and what you'd do is you'd have to plug it into your AirPod to charge it. There'd be a
01:00:34 ◼ ► stick out of like, no, I'm sorry, just saw another picture of the original, the Apple mouse thing.
01:00:40 ◼ ► Apple mouse being charged by an Apple pencil. Yeah, no, I think you're right. They have to,
01:00:46 ◼ ► they have to, but I mean, the AirPods, it's the, I just always am slightly aggrieved by the AirPods
01:00:51 ◼ ► because I've had this discussion with other people and I know you've written about it a lot.
01:00:54 ◼ ► It's could you make AirPods without, with batteries that were not even user serviceable
01:01:00 ◼ ► but serviceable in some fashion? And the answer is maybe, so maybe you couldn't make AirPods to Apple
01:01:07 ◼ ► specifications without making them essentially an environmental problem. But anyway, so that's the
01:01:13 ◼ ► big one. The rest of, you know, I actually have come to the point where Apple's batteries have
01:01:17 ◼ ► so much in like laptops and devices, like mobile devices are so good and have so much, they over
01:01:24 ◼ ► promise so much that I'm like, and they also, their battery replacement charges for your,
01:01:29 ◼ ► you know, the things that you can't do, aren't user serviceable are so reasonable now. And they
01:01:35 ◼ ► included them, you know, you've got AppleCare Plus, it includes battery, even your battery
01:01:39 ◼ ► drops below whatever, they replace it for free as part of that, all those things together. I'm like,
01:01:43 ◼ ► well, that kind of took care of the battery issue and then Apple does have to recycle and deal with
01:01:49 ◼ ► the batteries they pull out. So for all of those devices now, I'm like, it's a pain that you can't
01:01:53 ◼ ► replace it yourself anymore. The advantages probably outweigh that and it's not a ridiculous
01:01:58 ◼ ► price to get Apple to service it if it happens. So. Right. I don't know what the path out of this
01:02:02 ◼ ► is. And I do know though, that like, under the umbrella term, right to repair that legislation is
01:02:18 ◼ ► But it is, and I think it's unclear to me, I stake out a middle ground here where I'm not in complete
01:02:27 ◼ ► defense of Apple's mostly no user serviceable batteries. But I also don't think it's a very
01:02:34 ◼ ► cynical play either. I really do think that when you compare, it's just impossible to look at a
01:02:40 ◼ ► modern iPhone and think of it as a device where you could somehow crack the back off. They're
01:02:46 ◼ ► just so dense, they really are. And it really does take an enormous amount of three-dimensional space
01:02:54 ◼ ► to design a battery that can be taken in and out safely, right? Which is a big part of it as
01:03:01 ◼ ► opposed to just sealing it up. Oh yeah. Once they got to those multiple polymer lithium ion
01:03:07 ◼ ► batteries and the sort of like terraced batteries in the 2015 MacBook, when you get to that point,
01:03:14 ◼ ► you're actually putting people maybe in danger if they start taking it apart. Maybe danger is an
01:03:19 ◼ ► exaggeration, but the laptops particularly, it becomes more complicated. Yeah, I would have to
01:03:24 ◼ ► say there was a period of time when it felt like Apple was thumbing its nose at people a bit,
01:03:28 ◼ ► because they did the pentalobe screws and they did stuff where they could have used a solder or
01:03:32 ◼ ► a screw and they used some kind of impenetrable glue that had melted off. And you're like,
01:03:37 ◼ ► that was a choice during manufacture and maybe it had a manufacturing purpose that shaved 1/13th of
01:03:45 ◼ ► a cent off every device, but maybe not. But then you transition into the modern era where you're
01:03:51 ◼ ► like, could you make, you know, I've got a 2017 iMac and I could put more memory in it myself.
01:03:56 ◼ ► Could I take out the drive? I mean, that's a huge, weird engineering task. So they put a slot in the
01:04:02 ◼ ► back for that? Like, I don't know. And now, you know, the M1 just breaks that. Then you're like,
01:04:11 ◼ ► Everything is just on a postage side stamp. That's right. I mean, you know, in the future,
01:04:15 ◼ ► the funny part is the new, well, I know we're gonna talk about the new iMacs, or the new iMacs,
01:04:21 ◼ ► I know. You really could. It really is almost like it really, I thought about that. It's like,
01:04:27 ◼ ► why get a new display when the M3 comes out in two years? Why not just have like a cartridge that
01:04:37 ◼ ► But I do get it. And I do, you know, having gone through, I've had AirPods for so long,
01:04:51 ◼ ► One thing I'd looked, I was just upgrading my Apple Watch to the new OS. No, I forget what I
01:04:59 ◼ ► was checking to see if it if it wanted to because I've been using I was using the beta versions of
01:05:04 ◼ ► 14.5 for a long time so I could get the unlock with the watch while you're wearing a face mask.
01:05:10 ◼ ► Which I'm glad I did because it was a long beta cycle. I got like two months out of that.
01:05:14 ◼ ► But I wound up poking around and looking at the battery. So I have a series five Apple Watch.
01:05:35 ◼ ► Which, you know, isn't great, isn't bad. I mean, I wear it more more days often than not.
01:05:42 ◼ ► You know, you know, I'm an idiot and I bought the titanium version. So I don't know what is that,
01:05:47 ◼ ► like six or 700 bucks? I mean, you know, I mean, like you get a $600 watch, you don't expect the
01:05:51 ◼ ► battery to, you know, and I know I can just take it to Apple and I can throw it away if the battery
01:05:58 ◼ ► gets unacceptable. Very sensitive with the watch compared to like a laptop. But like, you know,
01:06:04 ◼ ► by the time it gets down to like 80%, maybe in another year, it's like, wouldn't I rather just
01:06:10 ◼ ► buy a series eight Apple Watch two years from now? You know, there's it, it's not planned,
01:06:18 ◼ ► planned obsolescence is the wrong term, like, because it planned obsolescence really sounds
01:06:23 ◼ ► like you truly went to your engineers and said, I want you to design a toaster that after 600
01:06:30 ◼ ► times, 600 slices of toast, the spring will break. And then they have to buy a new toaster.
01:06:35 ◼ ► Like that's it. It's largely about the fact that by the, you know, Apple stuff lasts long enough
01:06:40 ◼ ► that by the time it really does wear out or is unusable. The new stuff is so compelling that
01:06:48 ◼ ► it really does make more sense to just get a new phone. Yeah. And this is, I think the big
01:06:52 ◼ ► difference though, with Apple gear than with the things made by most other companies, like who
01:06:57 ◼ ► wants an Android three phone or an Android six phone or something, right? Those do not have a
01:07:03 ◼ ► lot. I mean, they do. I mean, they're used in the developing world or some aftermarket. But I think
01:07:07 ◼ ► those are more disposable and I know people are walking around with like iPhone fours and fives,
01:07:11 ◼ ► right? Those are still functional. And you know, whenever I've sold, I don't think I've so rarely
01:07:17 ◼ ► had a computer die. I actually, when I got a MacBook Air last spring thinking foolishly,
01:07:23 ◼ ► well, Apple won't release two MacBook Air models in one year, especially during a pandemic. So I
01:07:27 ◼ ► bought a new Intel one, right? When they came up with the better keyboard version and my 2015
01:07:32 ◼ ► MacBook, which I'd had, you know, five years under AppleCare Plus, how to get the keyboard,
01:07:41 ◼ ► cover. So it was worth having bought the AppleCare Plus. That one was dying in such a weird way that
01:07:46 ◼ ► I took the buyout and I got 300 bucks for it from Apple as a trade in and let them disassemble it
01:07:52 ◼ ► and do whatever. Right. But that's one of the few times, like normally my battery is like, as like
01:07:56 ◼ ► one of my kids both got 2018 MacBook Airs. And so they're getting towards the end of their three
01:08:01 ◼ ► years of AppleCare Plus and they're in good condition. And we're probably gonna, you know,
01:08:05 ◼ ► I think at least for one of them, they might get a M1 or whatever the subsequent model is.
01:08:09 ◼ ► So I'm like, hey, what's your battery capacity? So install the battery monitor app that I really
01:08:14 ◼ ► like, third-party tool. And it's like, oh, it's at like 79, 80%. Like as soon as it's consistently
01:08:20 ◼ ► under 80%, we are getting this battery replaced because when we sell it, I mean, it's a benefit
01:08:25 ◼ ► for somebody who buys it. We can say, you know, A, we'll get a little better price for it. And B,
01:08:29 ◼ ► can say this was just repaired under warranty and has 100% new refurbished battery. And there you
01:08:34 ◼ ► go. So you're not getting it. What's the name of the app? Because people are gonna ask.
01:08:38 ◼ ► It is, I think it's literally called Battery Monitor to accept no substitutes. It's buy,
01:08:44 ◼ ► but let me tell you the maker, cause I think if you go, you know, the usual app store problem,
01:08:48 ◼ ► if you actually go into Battery Monitor and the app store, you will get, you know, too many
01:08:53 ◼ ► different apps. It is by the fine people at, oh, they're telling me I can't run it on my computer
01:08:58 ◼ ► because it's I'm on an iMac. So anyway, it's the best battery monitor. I will put an, I promise
01:09:07 ◼ ► I've already made a note. I will put it in the show notes. It's great. It's what I was using.
01:09:10 ◼ ► I was testing a lot of USB battery packs and draining batteries and doing stuff. And I am just
01:09:15 ◼ ► a big, I know it's so funny. It's a big fan of this simple app because it just pulls out all
01:09:21 ◼ ► the stuff. You can get some of it from system information, but not all of it. Some of it,
01:09:24 ◼ ► you have to actually use this app in order to see, like you can get cycles, but you can't get
01:09:30 ◼ ► percentage of capacity from, oh, Marcel Bracink software. Well, anyway, I feel like we will look
01:09:39 ◼ ► back long, you know, hopefully sooner rather than later. I mean, 10 years, you know, 10 years feels
01:09:46 ◼ ► like a decent goal that we'll look back on this era of glued in batteries and the lifespan,
01:09:55 ◼ ► the usable lifespan they had and think of it as incredibly crude. Oh, that's a great way to think
01:10:00 ◼ ► about it. Yeah. But it's, you know, there's a lot of this stuff though that people think, you know,
01:10:04 ◼ ► like, I don't know, the individual AirPods themselves, I don't know. I've seen what they
01:10:08 ◼ ► look like when they're taken apart and it's really hard to, to argue against the design. I don't know.
01:10:15 ◼ ► I wish that they were more repairable. It seems incredibly wasteful that the best thing to do with
01:10:20 ◼ ► a $160 pair of wireless headphones that just doesn't hold a charge anymore is get new ones.
01:10:26 ◼ ► Well, you know, there's those women who started the company that does AirPod battery replacement,
01:10:32 ◼ ► right? They have some kind of secret thing they do. Jeff Carlson wrote about this for tidbits.
01:10:38 ◼ ► Oh, I'm blanking out of the product name. It's a, they have some kind of clearly robotic
01:10:45 ◼ ► system for replacing the batteries. So they take the glue out and whatever, and they don't charge
01:10:50 ◼ ► that much for it relative to the cost of the AirPod. PodSwap is the name of these folks. PodSwap,
01:10:56 ◼ ► you send them and they're what they're clever at 60 bucks for a swap of the first generation ones
01:11:01 ◼ ► currently sold out in the second, you send them yours in and they send you a refurbished pair,
01:11:06 ◼ ► basically. They swap them out and then they deal with the, with the issue of, you know,
01:11:13 ◼ ► cleaning and doing it, but they have some secret sauce they've invented. It doesn't sound like it
01:11:18 ◼ ► cannot be manual because it's too, you know, no one's been able to forget a manual process. And
01:11:31 ◼ ► but just looking at the math, right? $160 pair of headphones and 60 bucks to swap the battery.
01:11:39 ◼ ► Again, that is a better deal than buying a new pair of $160 headphones, right? No doubt about it,
01:11:44 ◼ ► but it's still, that's like a third of the price. Like back when we were kids, if you had bought
01:11:49 ◼ ► a $40 calculator, if you had found out it costs $15 to replace the battery, you'd, you would
01:11:54 ◼ ► thought it was crazy. Right? I mean, that doesn't, it. Oh yeah. It's a great, I mean, that's the thing
01:12:00 ◼ ► is our problem is we're comparing. Yeah. It's I mean, remember when we used max and they would
01:12:05 ◼ ► essentially like, or any computer and they like burn out within two or three years, like they just
01:12:14 ◼ ► but often they were too slow at that point or whatever. And you just have this, you know,
01:12:17 ◼ ► off with the towers you'd wind up with, if you didn't take, there's no computer recycling. So
01:12:20 ◼ ► you didn't figure out where to get rid of them. You could have like 10, you remember this, right?
01:12:24 ◼ ► You'd like 10 towers in the corner for your last 10 years. So now like my expectation is when I
01:12:29 ◼ ► buy a Mac, it's going to last me five to seven years, unless I have a specific reason to update,
01:12:34 ◼ ► like I need to write about new technology. So my five-year-old Mac book, which I liked,
01:12:39 ◼ ► was dying. It was doing weird stuff and I needed to write about, you know, I need a new machine
01:12:43 ◼ ► that I need to write about the M1. But many of the machines that I've then sold because they
01:12:48 ◼ ► weren't dying, people have gone on, they've told me, oh, I'm still using that thing from three
01:12:51 ◼ ► years ago. So they get eight or 10 years out of a Mac with the nominal repair in the meantime,
01:12:57 ◼ ► either the battery swapped or some component. So that is fantastic by the standards of our youth.
01:13:02 ◼ ► Absolutely. But the thing is we hold everybody to higher standards now. And so we hold Apple
01:13:06 ◼ ► to the standard of like, well, couldn't it be even longer? We just need some kind of next generation
01:13:18 ◼ ► that came before it. It's all coming. I hadn't thought about that. Like the 10-year timeframe
01:13:22 ◼ ► on batteries is not going to be, well, we have 20% more efficiency out of lithium ion. That is not
01:13:27 ◼ ► going to be what it is. But like, for example, just to name one, you know, and we'll get into
01:13:31 ◼ ► the Apple remote in a bit, but I'm much happier with the Apple remote having a little lightning
01:13:43 ◼ ► It really is the most delightful thing. It's like your TV tells you, hey, the battery's getting low,
01:13:48 ◼ ► but it's like, you know, like 10%. So you could easily, if you just don't want to deal with it
01:13:52 ◼ ► right now, you could just keep watching the movie. But if you do want to charge it up, you just need
01:13:55 ◼ ► like 10 minutes on like a charger you have laying around. Anyway, let me take a break here and thank
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01:16:18 ◼ ► What a fun ad, but you didn't get to really experience it. You just got to listen to me talk.
01:16:33 ◼ ► I'm imagining it in my head right now, but I'm gonna go find it. I'm gonna go listen to the show.
01:16:46 ◼ ► You know my friend Joe Rosenstiel, right? Joe is written the most eloquent. I'm not sure anyone has
01:16:53 ◼ ► written as beautifully and as at length about the hatred for the old Siri remote as he has,
01:17:01 ◼ ► and I recommend searching for Joe Rosenstiel and Siri remote if you understand everything that
01:17:06 ◼ ► there is. And I saw this as like, thank God. I just bought the Function 101 remote last year,
01:17:12 ◼ ► which is very much like the new—it's got a lot of things in common, but not entirely—to
01:17:18 ◼ ► this new Siri remote. But it was kind of like, oh, thank God. All right. But why, you know,
01:17:40 ◼ ► I can't tell you. To me, still, the biggest head scratcher in my entire career writing about Apple.
01:17:47 ◼ ► It's not the most important thing by far. It's not my biggest complaint, not my most serious
01:17:51 ◼ ► complaint, because it's relatively low stakes. What are we complaining about? The trackpad,
01:18:01 ◼ ► and all you wanted to do was pick up the damn remote to adjust the volume, and you've paused.
01:18:11 ◼ ► I don't know, your family members are mad at you for doing it or, you know, but you're 10 seconds
01:18:15 ◼ ► away from getting back to where you were. It's not destructive. But it's just so baffling.
01:18:20 ◼ ► It's awkward. When did Apple make anything awkward? When did Apple make anything awkward?
01:18:24 ◼ ► Besides the pencil and the aforementioned mouse charging, right? Those are the two most awkward
01:18:39 ◼ ► "Let's make it. Let's prototype it and see how it is," you know? But if you actually prototype it in
01:18:50 ◼ ► And years and years and years, they just kept shipping this thing. They're making the best
01:18:55 ◼ ► Macs they've ever made in history. They're making the best iPhones they've ever made in history.
01:19:01 ◼ ► The funniest—one of the funniest parts of the whole saga of that remote is that when they came
01:19:06 ◼ ► out with the Apple TV 4K in 2018, they did tweak it. They put a white ring around the menu button,
01:19:14 ◼ ► which in addition to being white, if the lights are on, was actually raised so you could tell the
01:19:22 ◼ ► menu button apart by touch. And I remember talking to somebody at Apple about—it was like, "That's
01:19:28 ◼ ► it?" And it was like, "Well, I guess some people don't like the old remote, but now we have a ring
01:19:54 ◼ ► You know, and Apple's always changing, right? And maybe some designs, like the aluminum
01:20:02 ◼ ► unanodized MacBook Air, stayed the same for kind of an extraordinary long period of time.
01:20:12 ◼ ► I don't want to attribute everything, you know, "Oh, a brightly colored iMacs." Well, thank God
01:20:40 ◼ ► Nope, I know that they do. I know that like, Eddy Cue is a big time Apple TV user. I know
01:20:47 ◼ ► No, no, I mean, the Siri remote, though, like, if you're using your phone, if your phone is your
01:20:51 ◼ ► remote, you don't have this experience. And so my question is, is everybody or all those people
01:20:57 ◼ ► phone in the hand people so they're watching TV and they don't even care, they don't use it
01:21:00 ◼ ► because it's not as, you know, it's not as sophisticated as the phone remote. And when I
01:21:04 ◼ ► use the phone remote, I have my anger level at Apple TV goes down like, you know, 97%. So,
01:21:11 ◼ ► See, you know what, I don't like using the phone remote, not because I think there's something
01:21:16 ◼ ► wrong with it, but because when I'm watching TV, I want to get away from, you know, it's the end of
01:21:20 ◼ ► my day. And I want to be off the phone. It's like, it'd be better if I just left my phone in the
01:21:26 ◼ ► kitchen and didn't even have it in the living room with me because I don't want to find out somebody
01:21:31 ◼ ► posted to Slack or, you know, breaking news from New York Times. No, I'm watching something with
01:21:36 ◼ ► my family, you know, so I don't. But maybe, maybe that's the explanation. I don't know. But we have
01:21:57 ◼ ► Ted. So, they fixed the remote. It looks like they fixed the remote. And one of the problems
01:22:02 ◼ ► with the Siri remote, the black one, the one that we hate, is, in my opinion, people could just look
01:22:07 ◼ ► at it and think, "Well, isn't that weird that it's symmetric? Aren't you going to be, you know,
01:22:11 ◼ ► not know which end you've picked up?" And it's like, "Yeah, yeah, the things that you thought
01:22:14 ◼ ► just by glancing at it." So, yeah, I'm not, I can't review the new Apple remote yet. I don't have it.
01:22:19 ◼ ► But my review of the photograph of it is that it certainly looks like it's going to make me
01:22:25 ◼ ► very happy. Pete: Yeah. This, the thing I'd love to talk about, though, if I can dig into something,
01:22:30 ◼ ► is this color balance thing. So, John, I know you worked, I know you worked in desktop publishing.
01:22:38 ◼ ► John: Yes. But I typically never had to do it. There was somebody else, when I was at the
01:22:44 ◼ ► Philadelphia Inquirer's Promotions Department, we had, the work I did was never so sensitive
01:22:57 ◼ ► Pete; Yeah, and the late, great Bruce Fraser's incredible book on, was it Color Correction? It
01:23:02 ◼ ► was about color, it was a real world color, I don't know, it was a great book. I remember,
01:23:08 ◼ ► it was so great. Graham Nash loved that book, apparently. Graham Nash was a huge nerd. He
01:23:12 ◼ ► became very good friends with Bruce Fraser before his death. Anyway, but no, so I was doing color
01:23:23 ◼ ► John; And this was for a shop that was doing, it was like a typesetting and output shop imaging
01:23:28 ◼ ► center place connected with the Kodak Center for Creative Imaging where I used to work.
01:23:31 ◼ ► And, or sort of connected with them. Anyway, so we had one of these hoods that you would go under
01:23:36 ◼ ► and the lights were perfect and whatever, and I was like, one day I'm like, oh, this is funny,
01:23:40 ◼ ► and I realized I had like a five-degree color red difference between my two eyes. Like, that's how
01:23:46 ◼ ► much correction I was doing and how calibrated the environment was. Like, well, my eyes perceive red.
01:23:51 ◼ ► So, anyway, you know, so I've been working, you know, color correction is this magical art,
01:23:56 ◼ ► it's not calibration, I realize those are two different things, but you're always trying to
01:23:59 ◼ ► figure out like, how do you get the thing that's the original thing? And this is one of those
01:24:03 ◼ ► aspects of like, when you produce television, there's a broadcast quality thing, you know,
01:24:08 ◼ ► there's all these parameters around the kind of video and one of the remarkable things about
01:24:13 ◼ ► HD video and sort of modern production is that you can have a handheld device like a phone
01:24:20 ◼ ► a post-production part. So, this is all really cool. But you're like, all right, how do I get,
01:24:27 ◼ ► how do I not have to sit there and tweak the million things, right? I just got a new TV,
01:24:31 ◼ ► we went from a, you know, 32-inch to a 40-inch or whatever we have now, we got the biggest thing
01:24:34 ◼ ► that fits. We decided to go from 1080p to 4K because we're watching more TV. And I'm like,
01:24:45 ◼ ► and I think I've got it okay, but I'm not delighted. And then this comes out, I'm like,
01:24:53 ◼ ► Am I going to have to buy a 4K? Because this is incredible. It's like one of the greatest uses
01:24:58 ◼ ► of technology is a thing that makes your life easier in a noticeable way that makes you happier,
01:25:21 ◼ ► excuse me, I gotta go calibrate my TV. I didn't know that, I didn't know that. All right, I gotta,
01:25:30 ◼ ► so I didn't have the, I wasn't ready for it yet. - Yeah, same here. I manually forced it to update
01:25:41 ◼ ► color correction, whatever you want to call the whole scheme, getting your display to show color
01:25:47 ◼ ► well is one of those little things that has gotten so much better over like, you're in my lifetime.
01:25:54 ◼ ► Number one, CRTs were terrible. I mean, they were what we had, but in hindsight, it's like,
01:25:59 ◼ ► oh my God, no wonder my eyes are so bad. But they were also terribly inconsistent. They were easily,
01:26:06 ◼ ► they had like dials, they had actual physical dials under the screen that somebody could
01:26:11 ◼ ► screw with, you know? And then you'd be like, ah, why did you do that? Where were these before?
01:26:30 ◼ ► - Remember that, and then you'd have like a monitor that was going on the Fritz and you could like
01:26:33 ◼ ► recalibrate it in the control, the monitor's control panel and you'd get like another custom
01:26:40 ◼ ► thing and it was so, it was a disaster. And that's not even going to professional standards. That was
01:26:47 ◼ ► just trying to get it so it looked right to your eyes as somebody who cared about color. And now
01:26:58 ◼ ► you never have to worry about like what gamma your iPhone is generating or whatever. You just
01:27:03 ◼ ► do brightness, right? All you have to worry about is brightness. Do you want to turn true tone on?
01:27:15 ◼ ► when Apple started talking about that and I was like, well, well, most people notice, I don't know,
01:27:19 ◼ ► it'll have some more vivid colors in a few areas. And it's, you know, if you use a RGB or was it
01:27:24 ◼ ► SRGB versus P3 phone, you look at them side by side and the SRGB thing looks like washed out crap
01:27:30 ◼ ► sometimes for the same photo. You're like, this is noticeable improvement that people, if you put
01:27:35 ◼ ► them side by side, a normal person would say that one's better with the P3. - But anyway, this new
01:27:40 ◼ ► calibration thing is supposed to work. You know, we'll have to try it afterwards. - Why can't I do
01:27:45 ◼ ► this on my Mac? John, why can't I do this on my Mac? - You're not supposed to need to. - I got an
01:27:49 ◼ ► iMac, so it's calibrating already. - Right, see, that's just it. You're not supposed to need to.
01:27:56 ◼ ► and otherwise the other big thing with Apple TV is sort of, as I wrote about it, it's like a lot
01:28:04 ◼ ► of speculation that Apple was like getting out of the market because that's why they're pushing
01:28:09 ◼ ► the TV+ app onto all these other platforms and they're just gonna, you know, be more like Netflix
01:28:14 ◼ ► instead of worrying about selling Apple TV boxes. They just want to put Apple TV on everybody else's
01:28:18 ◼ ► boxes. Other people who thought, well, no, they should sell their own box, but they've got to
01:28:23 ◼ ► compete on price. These Roku things are only 40 bucks and Amazon is only 40 bucks. They need
01:28:29 ◼ ► something for under $100. And Apple was like, nope, we're good. We'll just keep selling these
01:28:34 ◼ ► for $180. - Because we can't. - A 32 gigabyte upgrade for 32 gigabytes you probably don't need
01:28:43 ◼ ► and that they didn't even bother telling you what you could use it for. The only thing I can
01:28:49 ◼ ► imagine would be if you really do use your Apple TV as a gaming console, they're having the games
01:28:55 ◼ ► installed could take up multiple gigabytes. But like for streaming video, you certainly don't need
01:29:00 ◼ ► extra 32 gigabytes. But on the other hand, it's only 20 bucks. So it's like if you're already in
01:29:06 ◼ ► for 179, why not? I don't know. - You know, the secret too is I don't know if anybody but me
01:29:12 ◼ ► enables this. Content caching on your Mac. If you got a desktop Mac and you got a bunch of
01:29:16 ◼ ► extra storage, like I've got an eight terabyte external hard drive that I use for like offloading
01:29:22 ◼ ► stuff and backups and whatever. Mac OS, you go to sharing preference pane, you check the content
01:29:30 ◼ ► caching box and then you can set a limit and point it to a drive. And any Apple content,
01:29:36 ◼ ► like it's synced appointments, stuff protected with fair play, whatever, is just cached there
01:29:41 ◼ ► for the network. System updates, iOS updates, whatever. And so you don't know what's in there.
01:29:46 ◼ ► Apple does all this disguising and encryption, but it's basically I've got like an Apple
01:29:50 ◼ ► content distribution network node on my drive. I can't even tell if it works. Like it's constantly
01:29:58 ◼ ► downloading stuff and it's full of, it's got like 20 gigabytes of stuff on it or whatever.
01:30:04 ◼ ► I can't remember what I devoted to it. But it's like if you've watched a movie from a streaming
01:30:10 ◼ ► device, it doesn't necessarily download it to the device. It'll download it to the caching server.
01:30:18 ◼ ► internet, so that's fine, but it comes from your local network. Anyway, so that's a trick you can
01:30:28 ◼ ► system preferences sharing. It's just one of these options. And if you look up details about it,
01:30:34 ◼ ► Apple has some stuff online, but it's kind of like, turn this on and we'll cache some stuff
01:30:38 ◼ ► on your machine, like all kinds of things. And so if you've got a lower speed connection,
01:30:43 ◼ ► you've got like a 10 or 20 megabit per second connection. Back when Apple was making Wi-Fi
01:30:48 ◼ ► routers, the time capsule had a feature like that, where the, you know, your, your, your, if you're,
01:30:54 ◼ ► if I forget if it was just the time capsule, because that time capsule, probably, because
01:30:59 ◼ ► it's, because it's the only one with storage, right? Like a regular, oh, we can't. Yeah.
01:31:03 ◼ ► Because I mean, I've always thought, I think that Apple, I wish for $179, I wish the new Apple TV
01:31:09 ◼ ► was also a Wi-Fi hub. I mean, it's already a home kit hub and it could be a content caching hub.
01:31:14 ◼ ► It could be so much more. And instead it is to me, a little bit surprising that they did the
01:31:22 ◼ ► very least surprising thing possible and just sort of upgrade the A series chip to the A12,
01:31:27 ◼ ► kept the prices the same and said, no, no, we're good. And, and, you know, it seems like their
01:31:33 ◼ ► attitude is yes, we want TV app everywhere. And so we're doing that. And anybody who's,
01:31:41 ◼ ► who thinks that's fine and at a $40 Roku box or the built-in smart TV stuff on your TV, if that's
01:31:49 ◼ ► good for you, then Apple TV will be there for you. And if you want a premium experience and,
01:31:55 ◼ ► you know, color corrected output and the Dolby Atmos sound to their home pods and the Dolby,
01:32:04 ◼ ► whatever they call it for the HDR content, you, you know, if you're willing to pay 180 bucks,
01:32:09 ◼ ► you can, you can have a premium experience with the Apple TV box. It is sort of a very old school
01:32:15 ◼ ► Apple idea. You know, it's sort of like where the Mac was 20 years ago, you know, where, yeah,
01:32:20 ◼ ► it is a serious premium over a PC crap box, but some people are willing to pay for it. And, you
01:32:25 ◼ ► know, five, five, 6% of the market is fine for them for this product. You know, this isn't supposed
01:32:32 ◼ ► to set the world on fire. Have you used a smart TV with the Apple TV app on it? Because I had not
01:32:38 ◼ ► until recently. I did when we got a new TV a year ago. And how long did you use it? Like 30 seconds.
01:32:47 ◼ ► We got our new Vizio and it's a relatively modern, you know, 4k. It's not super high end one. It's
01:32:53 ◼ ► like very affordable model. And I was like, well, this is great. It's got all the apps and I've got
01:32:56 ◼ ► an HD Apple TV, so we can watch 4k Apple TV programming through the app, the Apple TV app
01:33:02 ◼ ► on the Vizio. And I don't know, I lasted, I don't know, maybe a couple of days messing with it. And
01:33:06 ◼ ► it's so slow and the interface is terrible and everything lags. And to go back and forth between
01:33:12 ◼ ► Apple TV app on the Vizio and Apple TV on its own hardware, you know, the last, like a fourth
01:33:18 ◼ ► generation one, not a fifth or later, it was the most painful thing in the world. I'm like, all
01:33:22 ◼ ► right, this is why they can charge. This is why I haven't used a Roku. And so I realized Roku is a
01:33:27 ◼ ► totally different experience and they're very affordable and so forth. So that's not a fair
01:33:32 ◼ ► comparison, but it was embarrassing. Yeah, I bought, I didn't, I wound up not really writing
01:33:36 ◼ ► about it at length, but I bought a Roku and an Amazon box like two years ago, just, you know,
01:33:43 ◼ ► and each one was like 80 bucks. And I thought, well, I can justify it cause I'll write about it,
01:33:47 ◼ ► but I didn't write about it, but I tried them both and they're fine. They're better in my
01:33:53 ◼ ► appearance, in my opinion, than it, to me, it's like three tiers. There's the built into the TV
01:33:59 ◼ ► tier, which is not good. We have an LG and it's, people often say, if you read the reviews, people
01:34:04 ◼ ► who actually bother to try Samsung and Sony and LG and Vizio and whoever else, then LG does have
01:34:10 ◼ ► the best reputation for the built-in software. And it's actually, it's like the remnants of the old
01:34:17 ◼ ► Palm OS, right? It's, or WebOS from Palm. Like LG was the company that wound up buying the rights to
01:34:26 ◼ ► the Palm WebOS and they either never used it for phones or quickly aborted it for phones, but,
01:34:33 ◼ ► but that's what they've gotten their TVs. And it is better than, than most of the other ones
01:34:38 ◼ ► I've seen, like at family members' houses and stuff like that. That's not good. The Roku and the
01:34:43 ◼ ► Fire box or Fire TV box, whatever Amazon calls it, are better. Roku's, in my opinion, better
01:34:49 ◼ ► than Amazon. Amazon is just so clumsy software-wise, everything, even their store. To me, it's their
01:34:55 ◼ ► Achilles heel is that their design is so bad. Like we were just, I forget what we were watching,
01:35:01 ◼ ► our family, we just watched something on Amazon Prime, but it's like, even my son who doesn't
01:35:06 ◼ ► typically nerd out on stuff like this, he was like, this app is so janky. It looks like,
01:35:13 ◼ ► the Amazon Prime app looks like a prototype, you know, like a couple of engineers who weren't even
01:35:20 ◼ ► working with the designer put this together. 'Cause everything is just like a rectangle and a box and
01:35:26 ◼ ► all right, we can just put an image here and put some text here. And it's like, you know,
01:35:30 ◼ ► then you go show your boss, like, look, we could make this app that shows all this video. And it's
01:35:34 ◼ ► like, yeah, let's green light, let's bring a designer on board, get an interaction team.
01:35:40 ◼ ► You know, like nothing is animated. It's so weird. It's very crude. The Roku's much better
01:35:47 ◼ ► in that regard, but it's also clearly like a step behind the Apple TV, like just a night and day
01:35:53 ◼ ► to me. So it's worth it to me. 180 bucks. I don't know. I don't need to buy a new Apple TV 4K.
01:35:59 ◼ ► So I've had mine since the 4K one came out in 2018. So I've still got years ahead of it. So
01:36:06 ◼ ► for the 180 bucks I spent on it, it's not bad, but it is interesting to me that it's contrary
01:36:11 ◼ ► to everybody's advice. I don't remember anybody's advice to Apple being, what they should do with
01:36:31 ◼ ► many people pointed out, they figure out a price point and then that's the price point for that
01:36:35 ◼ ► product, not forever, but often it doesn't move very much. And they don't need to. And then
01:36:41 ◼ ► occasionally, we've seen them do it with like the HomePod and some other products where they're like,
01:36:45 ◼ ► maybe this is a little much. And they tweak it or they produce a new thing and then they have a
01:36:49 ◼ ► justification to make it lower. They try to keep the lowest price of the lowest end Mac
01:36:53 ◼ ► at under $1,000, those kinds of things. But I think they like their prices more than they like
01:37:03 ◼ ► but I think, you know, how do you have a company that's worth trillions of dollars and delivers
01:37:12 ◼ ► Pete: I would say the product where that was the most conspicuous for the most people was
01:37:26 ◼ ► and was just looking slower and slower and slower. And they just were waiting until they could make
01:37:33 ◼ ► the retina MacBook Air that they wanted to make. And in the meantime, what every other PC maker
01:37:39 ◼ ► would have done is, well, we'll at least lower the prices, you know. But they, you know, I think,
01:37:50 ◼ ► "Okay, we're not ready with the next generation MacBook Air yet, but we'll lower the price to $799.
01:38:04 ◼ ► Pete; No, they had like $899 for education, but they never lowered the price because they didn't
01:38:08 ◼ ► want to come out with the one they always wanted to come out with and say, "Okay, now here it is,
01:38:12 ◼ ► and it's $1,199." You know, and in fact, when they came out with the retina MacBook Air at like $1,199,
01:38:19 ◼ ► they still kept the old crummy one around at $999 just to hold that price point until like a year
01:38:26 ◼ ► later when, "Okay, now we can sell last year's retina MacBook Air for $999, and here's a speed
01:38:32 ◼ ► bump version for $1,199," etc. And then the other one that really stands out, of course, is the
01:38:37 ◼ ► Trashcan Mac Pro where it never even got an update, but yet they kept these incredibly professional
01:38:43 ◼ ► prices, you know, $4,000 for this computer with a seven-year-old chip. I mean, it was crazy,
01:38:52 ◼ ► but it was such a niche product, you know, it didn't have the mass market. But it's all about
01:38:58 ◼ ► Pete; Yep. And again, I mean, their spreadsheets make it work. I mean, it just cracks me up that
01:39:02 ◼ ► I bought a 4K TV for just a few dollars more than the new Apple TV 4K, right? It's like,
01:39:10 ◼ ► that's what they can do, and they own that. And you know what? I will probably eventually get
01:39:15 ◼ ► one because I got a 4K TV now and an HD Apple TV. So, I probably will eventually go, "Oh,
01:39:23 ◼ ► Chris; My advice to anybody buying a TV is research the hell out of it. The nice thing is there's only
01:39:32 ◼ ► Pete; There's what, Sony, Visio is not a Sony brand, right? It's Visio, Samsung, and Sony,
01:39:43 ◼ ► Pete; I did not. No, we got a cheap thing. And actually, it's really, I was shocked by the
01:39:48 ◼ ► reviews, we were really positive, and I swear to God, we didn't pay more than $250 for it.
01:40:00 ◼ ► Chris; So, I went right from plasma to OLED. But by going, waiting, holding out for OLED,
01:40:06 ◼ ► there were only four brands. There's only four brands that make OLED. I chose LG because it just
01:40:10 ◼ ► seemed, it was a good combination, and I liked the idea that the software was at least, if I ever had
01:40:38 ◼ ► Chris; It's not something you want to keep your eye on the prices after you've made the decision.
01:40:48 ◼ ► Pete; Like, companies, you know, used to be more, and the race to the bottom was so quick,
01:40:52 ◼ ► and there's so few companies that can make, like, manufacture the glass and the LED components. So,
01:40:57 ◼ ► you know, Samsung famously provides chunks of that to Apple, right? And then Apple's building
01:41:01 ◼ ► its own factories too, or buying or supporting ones, to avoid having to use Samsung as much of
01:41:07 ◼ ► a source and blah, blah, blah. But the thing is, it's really, the TV business is so terrible
01:41:12 ◼ ► that, or the HGTV business that, I don't know if, I remember a few years ago, practically no one
01:41:18 ◼ ► except Samsung was making money because everyone else had to buy source materials from elsewhere,
01:41:24 ◼ ► and I don't know what it is today. But anyway, so they charge these ridiculously low prices
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01:45:10 ◼ ► What else we got? Are we moving on to IMAX? IMAX. What do you think? I love the colors.
01:45:25 ◼ ► Because they can. I mean, this is kind of the Apple thing, right? They're obsessed by it.
01:45:36 ◼ ► curved. It's a little heavy still, so making it lighter would be good. But there's something
01:45:42 ◼ ► about, I don't know, like they want—you remember when the iPad came out and it was like,
01:45:48 ◼ ► it was a sheet of glass and they'd removed the computer and you were completely interacting with
01:45:51 ◼ ► the thing almost as if it didn't exist. You were directly sticking your hands into the computing
01:45:56 ◼ ► experience of the device. So, I feel like there's a little bit of the, we're going to erase the
01:46:01 ◼ ► computer until it no longer exists practically to produce an experience that you are not separate
01:46:07 ◼ ► from the computer. And maybe that's the guiding philosophy. I don't know. I like the colors,
01:46:12 ◼ ► though. I do like the colors. If they didn't have an institutional compulsion to keep making things
01:46:17 ◼ ► ever smaller and make the computer disappear, if they didn't have it, I mean, yes, can it lead them
01:46:22 ◼ ► to go too far? Sure. I would say, you know, I would say the one-port 12-inch MacBook is the best
01:46:30 ◼ ► example. The one-port, one USB port that also doubled as the power connector is not enough.
01:46:37 ◼ ► Pete: Yeah, I had that machine. I own the 2015 MacBook and it was incredibly irritating. Two
01:46:42 ◼ ► ports is fine, but one was ridiculous. Jon, let me ask you a contrasting question. Maybe this is
01:46:53 ◼ ► Pete; Like, this is the both incredibly thin, but I wonder, did they actually strive for it?
01:47:02 ◼ ► They're like, well, we got a monitor, like, well, where do we stick the computer? In the past,
01:47:05 ◼ ► we stuck the computer sort of behind the monitor, you know, if you take apart your old,
01:47:13 ◼ ► And now they're like, we got the chin, are we going to get rid of the chin? It's like, nah,
01:47:16 ◼ ► we sort of need the chin. People put their hands on it. The height of the thing, we didn't give
01:47:20 ◼ ► you an adjustable height, so unless you use a VESA mount version, you know, you kind of need
01:47:24 ◼ ► that extra, like the screen shouldn't be that low. So, let's just stick the whole computer in the
01:47:28 ◼ ► chin, you know, and eventually I'm like, you know, and they put, this is the fun part where they put
01:47:33 ◼ ► the Ethernet port on the models that have gigabit Ethernet is in the power adapter, right? Which is
01:47:37 ◼ ► neat and weird. Eventually I'm going to be like, oh, they're just going to put the entire computer
01:47:41 ◼ ► in the power adapter. Like that's the next evolution of the iMac is going to be a little
01:47:45 ◼ ► Mac mini-sized lump on the floor. - Or a little Apple TV-sized thing, right? It's almost like,
01:47:50 ◼ ► it's almost like, is the Apple TV too big? You know, like, why does it need all those ports?
01:47:56 ◼ ► Why can't it be more like Apple TV? No, I'm with you, you know, and it is interesting because
01:48:02 ◼ ► part of making it so small is it does have an external power adapter now, which I believe
01:48:07 ◼ ► is the first desktop Mac ever with a power, external power connector. I mean like, ever, ever.
01:48:14 ◼ ► - I'm trying to think if, yeah, and I would say people were, had different opinions about it.
01:48:19 ◼ ► I will tell you this, I'm confident with my extensive but limited knowledge of computer
01:48:34 ◼ ► talked to and dug into it. I am absolutely confident the failure rate of the main device
01:48:40 ◼ ► will be substantially lower by removing the power circuitry from it and sticking it into
01:48:45 ◼ ► a power brick. Because then you're like, my machine died. They're like, great, we will send
01:48:49 ◼ ► you a new $50 item instead of having to repair a $1,400 item. - I wonder, I wonder how often that's
01:48:56 ◼ ► what something in that fails. - What fails, SSDs don't fail more, I mean, over a period of time.
01:49:02 ◼ ► The main circuitry don't fail. The heat dissipation is an issue from the power supply more than the
01:49:08 ◼ ► low power circuitry. This is an M1 based device, so the power dissipation is like, you know,
01:49:13 ◼ ► like nothing compared to the Intel chips. You've got M1s, you touch the computer and it's not hot.
01:49:20 ◼ ► And if you're using, my kids have these 2018 MacBook Airs and one of my kids will be doing
01:49:25 ◼ ► this game called GeoGaster that's super fun. They plop you down in a Google map and you have to find
01:49:30 ◼ ► where you are on the planet, it's really neat. And he's just using Google Street Map and his machine
01:49:34 ◼ ► is so hot you can't touch it, right? - Yeah, yeah. - So, these Macs are gonna be absolutely cool to
01:49:40 ◼ ► the touch in every circumstance and just won't overheat. And overheating and other related issues,
01:49:47 ◼ ► I'm sure, are a huge part of the failure of devices for repair. - I love that it's too thin
01:49:53 ◼ ► for an ethernet jack. I mean, 'cause-- (laughing) - Oh, I didn't even think about that. - Right?
01:49:59 ◼ ► So, the headphone jack is on the side because the headphone jack is too deep to go in the back with
01:50:06 ◼ ► the USB ports. But an ethernet port wouldn't fit either in the back 'cause it's not deep enough
01:50:12 ◼ ► and it wouldn't fit on the side 'cause it's not thick enough. And it is pretty funny thinking
01:50:18 ◼ ► about back in the day when ethernet was the shiznet, part of what made it so cool was that
01:50:25 ◼ ► it was so much smaller of a port than everything else compared to display adapters and SCSI,
01:50:32 ◼ ► for example. I mean, SCSI was the size of a book. - Oh my God, I love that. That's so great. And so
01:50:38 ◼ ► that's actually, I had not thought about that as a USB-C thing, is that it's actually shallow,
01:50:43 ◼ ► so it's not just small. I didn't think about that. So, the circuitry on the back end goes out
01:50:48 ◼ ► on either side. - Yeah, it's really pretty interesting. I mean, but that's the company.
01:50:52 ◼ ► So, the people who are complaining about the chin, that they wish that they'd gotten rid of the chin,
01:50:57 ◼ ► why not just make it, the whole thing, a little bit thicker than you could have put the computer
01:51:02 ◼ ► behind the display and nobody sees how thick it is? I get it. I mean, that's certainly,
01:51:08 ◼ ► but maybe you should start a computer company. I don't know. I think Apple's, like I said,
01:51:13 ◼ ► compulsion to keep making things thinner and create the illusion that the computer itself is
01:51:18 ◼ ► disappearing is driving them towards that goal much faster than if institutionally Apple was
01:51:26 ◼ ► more willing to say, "Ah, we'll just put it in the back. Who cares? Nobody looks at the back."
01:51:33 ◼ ► square bulge in the back, so it was super thin, no chin, and the bulge had the computer in it.
01:51:40 ◼ ► So, here's where it makes me wonder. Here we are at the end of April, WWDC is in like five weeks.
01:51:48 ◼ ► Where do we see the rest of the Apple lineup going? So, with these iMacs, they've completed
01:51:56 ◼ ► the consumer end of the game, unless they have new products, like if they were going to bring back
01:52:12 ◼ ► they're going to bring back laptops that are smaller than what we now call the MacBook Air.
01:52:16 ◼ ► But right now, there are consumer Macs across the board. All the consumer Intel Macs have either
01:52:22 ◼ ► been replaced by M1s or are available as an alternative. You can still buy the Intel 21-inch
01:52:30 ◼ ► iMac if you want. I have no idea why anyone would buy that, but it's there if you want it. It's the
01:52:35 ◼ ► Pro Macs that are left. And I'm just looking at the calendar. With the iMac, what I think they're
01:52:43 ◼ ► going to do is, so for example, if you want a 16-inch MacBook, your only option is the MacBook Pro.
01:52:49 ◼ ► That's it. And the 16-inch MacBook Pro starts at like 2,800? 2,400, I think. But it's a serious
01:52:59 ◼ ► amount of money. It's more than most people spend on a laptop. And that's a base configuration.
01:53:04 ◼ ► Most people are probably going to, you know, you're looking at probably most people who buy a 16-inch
01:53:08 ◼ ► MacBook Pro probably spend $3,000 easy. I think, but that's it. That's your only option for a 16-inch
01:53:17 ◼ ► MacBook. There is no, there's never been a 16 or 15-inch, you know, $1,200 MacBook. I think that's
01:53:24 ◼ ► where they're going with the iMac is that, okay, so they've got this 24-inch display. It's much
01:53:30 ◼ ► bigger, noticeably bigger than the old 21-inch. But what about the people used to the 5K 27-inch?
01:53:35 ◼ ► My guess is that they'll be, the new iMac Pro will just be like the 16-inch MacBook Pro where
01:53:43 ◼ ► it's just, that's the big iMac. It's 27 inches. Maybe it'll go up to 30 inches. I don't know.
01:53:48 ◼ ► I speculated maybe they'd go to 30. A couple of people are like, I don't know about that because
01:53:53 ◼ ► 27 is exactly 5K. They're not going to make the pixels bigger. Who knows? Whatever. 2730, a bigger
01:54:00 ◼ ► display. All of them are iMac Pros. They all have, you know, the ability to have more than 16
01:54:06 ◼ ► gigabytes of RAM, more than two terabytes of storage. But what chip is it? Is it the M1X?
01:54:13 ◼ ► Is it, is it dude, but, and when, you know, like when is it coming out? If they announce him at
01:54:20 ◼ ► June but they don't ship till later in the summer or the fall, then does an M1X even make sense?
01:54:26 ◼ ► Why come out with an M1X when the M2s are probably coming out later in the fall, right? Like,
01:54:32 ◼ ► Yeah, I don't buy the, well, I'll tell you, I'll tip my hand, which is, you know, among the
01:54:36 ◼ ► many thousands of books I feel like I've written. Take Control of Your M Series Mac is my book about
01:54:41 ◼ ► M Series Macs because Jokicsel and I are like, we're not going to name this M1 Mac because we
01:54:46 ◼ ► don't know what Apple's going to do. And we figure I'm on the favor of the M2. M1X sounds like the
01:54:53 ◼ ► thing they do for incremental change. I think for a Pro machine, it's going to be called an M2
01:54:57 ◼ ► because it's going to be a fundamentally different thing. So there might be an M1X that allows,
01:55:02 ◼ ► oh, I don't know, like maybe it'll allow 32 gigs of internal memory or something. But there's been
01:55:06 ◼ ► some good discussion about, you know, when you start to get above a certain size with a system
01:55:10 ◼ ► on a chip, like you cannot just, you can't throw like a terabyte of RAM into a system on a chip.
01:55:16 ◼ ► So an M2 that allows, so I mean, we can back this out, right? A Pro system has to be able to have
01:55:22 ◼ ► enormous amounts of RAM and should be able to have like four terabytes or eight terabytes of
01:55:28 ◼ ► storage because that's a reasonable thing from an SSD. So if you do that, you have to re-engineer
01:55:33 ◼ ► the chip, which means it's a next generation thing. And the M2, almost certainly, I doubt
01:55:38 ◼ ► they'll put it in two configurations. I mean, I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem to be
01:55:42 ◼ ► their approach. So the M2 will support some kind of external memory configuration. So you can use
01:55:48 ◼ ► DRAM and maybe it'll be user expandable because of the sheer difference of size people want.
01:55:55 ◼ ► But that logic to me makes a lot of sense. And an M1X, maybe in the fall, there'll be an M1X
01:56:01 ◼ ► that drives the next generation of chip for specific machines, you know, maybe there'll be
01:56:11 ◼ ► And I mean, my logic could be totally wrong, but that does seem the way Apple likes to do its
01:56:15 ◼ ► But then what would be the next chip for next year's MacBook Air? If the M2 is for Pros,
01:56:26 ◼ ► it could be an M1X like they did before. But then you just, I mean, do you up cores in it?
01:56:30 ◼ ► Like, I have a feeling there's a core, and I mean, sort of, it's the issue of like cores,
01:56:34 ◼ ► there's so much in the M1, and I realize it's not that different in some ways from what was in the
01:56:40 ◼ ► A series. But it's, I mean, do you, you know, how many cores do you need? And a Pro needs more cores.
01:56:48 ◼ ► And what do they do to the, you know, they're already using the five nanometer process.
01:56:53 ◼ ► They've already got, you know, the neural, like all the things that are already in there.
01:56:57 ◼ ► What is the next generation for a MacBook Air? It's going to be tweaks. And I don't know what
01:57:16 ◼ ► iOS and Mac, is to go by the actual cores. And they come out with new names for these cores
01:57:29 ◼ ► performance cores Vortex, and the high efficiency cores Tempest. Then the A13 year, it was Lightning
01:57:36 ◼ ► and Thunder for high performance, high efficiency. And then last year, with the A14, which is in the
01:57:43 ◼ ► iPhones 12, and the iPad, the new iPad Air from last fall, Firestorm and Icestorm. Firestorm is
01:57:51 ◼ ► high performance. And so that the A14, two high perform, two of the Firestorm, four of the high
01:57:57 ◼ ► efficiency Icestorm. The M1 goes four of each, but they're still, it is the same cores, right?
01:58:05 ◼ ► Like the, it's like the 2020 cores. So that's the thing. It's like, if they came out with like
01:58:19 ◼ ► Icestorm cores. Oh, interesting. From last year. And maybe they add more of them, right? So maybe
01:58:25 ◼ ► it's 16 cores instead of eight cores. And it's eight of each, eight high performance, eight high
01:58:31 ◼ ► efficiency. I don't know how they want to mix and match them. But it would be weird if they came out
01:58:36 ◼ ► with these products that are completely under their control with their chips. To me, it would
01:58:41 ◼ ► be weird if they came out with pro MacBook, 16 inch MacBook Pro, and maybe the iMac Pro,
01:58:48 ◼ ► with the M1X. And it's got more cores. And so if you're doing Xcode, Xcode doubles in speed
01:58:56 ◼ ► because you've got double the cores. But single core performance would be worse than the new iPhone
01:59:02 ◼ ► that's coming out in September? Yeah, yeah. So that's right. So I hadn't thought about it that
01:59:06 ◼ ► way, but you're totally it is that an M2 has got to increase core performance. And so an M1X is,
01:59:13 ◼ ► I think you're exactly right, is quantity as opposed to the literal core. And also GPU too,
01:59:21 ◼ ► right? I mean, eight core GPU is great, but they could be putting a 12 or 16 core one into a
01:59:28 ◼ ► professional, into a pro model. Right. It does not seem that the GPU in these, as sufficient as it is
01:59:36 ◼ ► for typical users' needs, it's not a pro GPU. And leaving aside the whole issue of PC gaming and
01:59:44 ◼ ► stuff, there's all sorts of professional reasons to want a better GPU. And it's also very, very,
01:59:51 ◼ ► as much as Apple is milking, not milking, that sounds too negative, but it's extraordinary that
02:00:00 ◼ ► this M1 chip is both for $700 Mac minis and for $1,700 iMacs and also for portables. And it's
02:00:10 ◼ ► great. It's not just like, oh yeah, it's a great desktop chip and you can use it in a portable.
02:00:16 ◼ ► And it's like, oh, well, what's it do to battery life? Oh, it doubles your battery life.
02:00:20 ◼ ► Pete: I've told people this a bunch, I've had the M1 MacBook Air for five months almost, and
02:00:26 ◼ ► I still am in disbelief when I do a lot of things on it that it works as well as it does. Like,
02:00:31 ◼ ► it's almost like an ongoing marketing machine because like you, I've used Macs for decades,
02:00:38 ◼ ► and I've enjoyed some significant improvements in performance over the years, but this one is
02:00:42 ◼ ► ridiculous. So, every time I touch it, I'm like, that can't just have happened that fast.
02:00:55 ◼ ► and it's downstairs in the kitchen, it's on the second floor. But I forget what I was doing,
02:00:59 ◼ ► but I wanted to be with the family, so I took my M1 MacBook up there and I didn't plug it in. I
02:01:06 ◼ ► have USB-C up there, but I didn't realize I didn't plug it in. I'd been up there like all weekend,
02:01:18 ◼ ► Pete; Get this, though, you know what was added, and you're going to love this, in Big Sur 11.3
02:01:22 ◼ ► that just came out, you know what they added that wasn't there before was hibernation for M1s. So,
02:01:29 ◼ ► it was getting that battery life with, unless you were, well, I don't know if you're wearing the
02:01:32 ◼ ► beta back that far, but so it didn't have hibernation mode, so it got that battery life
02:01:40 ◼ ► Pete; So, with hibernation mode, I figured you could probably, you know, go around the world and
02:01:45 ◼ ► you know, do like, I don't know, like 18 hours of use on the thing over 30 days and it would still
02:01:50 ◼ ► have a charge at the end. Chris; It's, the whole Apple Silicon story for Mac, and one of the things
02:01:55 ◼ ► that to me is so exciting about it is that they've so successfully kept their cards close to their
02:02:00 ◼ ► vest, right? Nobody knew what these, we were kind of hoping for iMacs last week, but nobody knew
02:02:06 ◼ ► what they looked like. And never, somebody, you know, somebody said, ah, they're going to be in
02:02:09 ◼ ► colors again. We didn't know what colors, you know, we didn't know how thin, nobody was like,
02:02:13 ◼ ► this thing looks like a giant iPad from the side. I mean, it literally is the thickness of the
02:02:20 ◼ ► original iPhone. The whole thing is as thick as the original iPhone. It's crazy. Nobody knew what
02:02:26 ◼ ► the initial lineup of M1 Macs was going to be last November. No, it's all terribly exciting. And
02:02:32 ◼ ► nobody knows what their story is with Pro iMacs, which is super. Pete; I told my wife this, I said,
02:02:38 ◼ ► we don't know what's coming. And this is what, and no one knew that the M1, when the M1 shipped,
02:02:42 ◼ ► it was a shock to everybody. What exactly? And she's like, that's not usual, is it? I'm like,
02:02:46 ◼ ► no, somehow Apple's kept tighter lips on this than any product they've released in, I don't know how
02:02:52 ◼ ► many years or decades, maybe because it's so different. But, um, so here's, here's my best
02:02:58 ◼ ► guess. And I have no inside information about this at all. I don't even know where I would go. I mean,
02:03:07 ◼ ► but here's what I think. And, and I'm just mainly looking at the calendar and just thinking about
02:03:14 ◼ ► the fact that the room for a Pro tier of M1 is sort of running out because the A15, which will
02:03:23 ◼ ► have the same cores as the next generation M2 is absolutely, we all know is slated for September.
02:03:30 ◼ ► Now, whether it'll be late, probably not this year, if it wasn't late last year with COVID, but
02:03:35 ◼ ► we know iPads or iPhones come out in September or at least get announced then. And it'll be the new
02:03:41 ◼ ► two cores that's, so I think they're running out of time. And I kind of think back to last year when
02:03:46 ◼ ► they first announced this transition and they did say it would be over the next two years.
02:03:55 ◼ ► right? Let's say two years, but like when they did the Intel transition, they got the whole thing
02:04:00 ◼ ► done in a year. They had the whole Mac lineup done in a year with going from PowerPC to Intel.
02:04:07 ◼ ► What if it really is two years? And in that two year thing is that the M1, the first year
02:04:22 ◼ ► where there'll be an M2 for consumer Macs. And then that's when we see the M2X and that's the
02:04:28 ◼ ► Pro story. So you're thinking consumer that there's possibility April 2022 before there's a consumer
02:04:34 ◼ ► M2 and then fall for a Pro M2. Well, I wouldn't be surprised if they can do the M2X later this year,
02:04:40 ◼ ► but I'm thinking that maybe like, and it seems like from the rumors and from what people are most,
02:04:47 ◼ ► what I know is popular and what people are waiting for, it's the 16 inch MacBook Pro that people
02:04:52 ◼ ► really, really want. Yeah. I mean, I could see that, right. I could see them holding off on
02:04:55 ◼ ► other designs, but then if they can do that, they could do anything, right? I mean, it's not a...
02:05:03 ◼ ► because the, and then the other end, the far end of the spectrum is how do they replace the Mac Pro
02:05:09 ◼ ► where you're, that a fully spec'd Intel Mac Pro right now is insane. It's, I don't know, it's like
02:05:17 ◼ ► 5,000 cores. It's, but it, and you gave, I mean, you put terabytes of RAM into it. It's nutty.
02:05:25 ◼ ► Yeah. So it's a hot, you got it. That's what I'm thinking, but it has to be a different,
02:05:28 ◼ ► there's a different way of thinking about it then. I mean, for years it's been like the iPad,
02:05:34 ◼ ► an iPhone and lower end, the consumer Macs were all kind of the same thing. And then the phones
02:05:40 ◼ ► and iPads were outperforming. And now you have an iPad Pro that's using the same chip as,
02:05:45 ◼ ► you know, the consumer Mac. So it's all in alignment now. But the Mac Pro is, you know,
02:05:51 ◼ ► just something beyond that. So it's gotta be something. I mean, so that's the thing is,
02:05:55 ◼ ► what if it's two years for the Mac Pro? Right. But it's not two years for, you know, a, an iMac Pro
02:06:02 ◼ ► and a 16-inch MacBook Pro and a refreshed 13-inch MacBook Pro. Right. Exactly. Or at least a second
02:06:08 ◼ ► tier, right? Like I, what I could see them doing with the third, and you know, there's rumors that
02:06:13 ◼ ► they're going to 14 inches from 13 inches where maybe it'll go. And so maybe, maybe they keep the
02:06:18 ◼ ► 13-inch one around at a 1400-ish price point, but they come out with a Pro Pro 14-inch smaller MacBook
02:06:26 ◼ ► Pro with the M2, maybe the M2X, whatever. Maybe it has to be the M2X because it goes to 32 or 64
02:06:34 ◼ ► gigs of RAM. And it starts at $2,000, you know, but the, if you, oh, wow, I don't want to spend
02:06:40 ◼ ► $2,000. Well, don't just, you know, we got the, you know, there's all the holes in the product. I
02:06:44 ◼ ► mean, the product matrix has the holes in it. And I think it's, I mean, you know, as you, as you've
02:06:48 ◼ ► written about, I think quite eloquently, eloquently when reporters are like, well, they haven't made
02:06:52 ◼ ► the decision about X yet. You're like, it's two months. They made the decision like a year ago,
02:06:56 ◼ ► guys, you know, come on. So they've either made M2 chips already or they're, you know, in mass
02:07:01 ◼ ► production in the, whatever example stage. - Well, that's the thing, there are, there are tons of
02:07:04 ◼ ► people at Apple who know everything we're speculating about here, and they're all keeping
02:07:08 ◼ ► their mouth shut. And I love it. - It's amazing. It's amazing. No, I love, I love that. No, I, I
02:07:13 ◼ ► want to hit one of the consumer points, too, though. It's just in passing is it's weird to me,
02:07:17 ◼ ► it's just reminds me of, you know, it's not the Schneider cut level, Schneider cut level of
02:07:21 ◼ ► things, but it's like people are like, how, it's kind of a little bit of a, oh, Apple's playing to
02:07:25 ◼ ► the, or how dare they make Colorful Max. I'm like, you don't have to buy one. They have a,
02:07:28 ◼ ► as Jason Stell is calling it, the no color, right? There's seven, it's six colors plus a non-color,
02:07:35 ◼ ► isn't it? And you can buy the non-color one. So I don't know. But I think it's, I think it's
02:07:40 ◼ ► wonderful to see them trying something different after a lot of uniformity for a lot of years.
02:07:45 ◼ ► And this is like the purple phone and whatever. People want to do things a little different.
02:07:49 ◼ ► Apple's got its fingers on what people want. They, you know, they don't, we know they famously don't
02:07:53 ◼ ► do focus groups the way a lot of the industry does, but they listen to people. They listen to
02:07:57 ◼ ► what, CUST, SAT, what is it? The, yeah, customer SAT. Yeah. So they, they know that. And so this
02:08:02 ◼ ► is clearly something they think they want it, they can do. They can do interestingly, the whole like
02:08:08 ◼ ► accessorized thing, all being the same color is pretty neat. I am a Johnny Ive fan boy. I love
02:08:14 ◼ ► the guy's work. I've talked to him a few times and he's always been charming and delightful
02:08:20 ◼ ► and truly interesting. And I think he's done wonderful work for Apple, did wonderful work
02:08:24 ◼ ► for decades, but it's impossible not to see the post Steve Jobs era of Johnny Ive as chief design
02:08:33 ◼ ► officer as it clearly, I mean, there's stuff we can speculate on thinness and other design
02:08:39 ◼ ► decisions, but the move towards monochromatic hardware is undeniable. I mean, there's absolutely
02:08:46 ◼ ► no denying that an awful lot of the product lineup went towards very true, at Johnny's terms, honest,
02:08:55 ◼ ► you know, that this is honest to the materials it's made of and aluminum looks like aluminum,
02:09:00 ◼ ► you know, and, and, and trends and things go in waves and who knows, maybe if Johnny Ive were still
02:09:07 ◼ ► there, it would be just as colorful, you know, and maybe these are just colors of IMAX that he signed
02:09:13 ◼ ► off on before he left. I don't know. But it is very welcome to me. And again, if whether it's
02:09:19 ◼ ► completely serendipitous with the timing of the disaster and melancholy of 2020, it really feels
02:09:26 ◼ ► incredibly well timed in a way that it almost might've felt inappropriate a year ago, right?
02:10:27 ◼ ► "Hey, look at these cheerful, bright, colorful IMAX last year." It's like, yeah, I don't know.
02:10:32 ◼ ► I think we needed everything to be sort of dark gray last year. I don't know. It feels very well
02:10:37 ◼ ► timed and serendipitous or not. Can I call out, there's something that I am in love with,
02:10:42 ◼ ► with these that's not related to the Mac. It's the touch ID on a keyboard, on an external keyboard.
02:10:47 ◼ ► I should not have forgotten to mention that. I just, because I mean, years ago when they first
02:10:51 ◼ ► released a secure enclave in an iMac, I was like, "Well, how are they going to touch ID? They can't
02:10:57 ◼ ► do it. You know, they can't do an external keyboard." I thought, "Oh, well, Apple's clever.
02:11:00 ◼ ► They'll have some kind of USB-based thing because they wouldn't trust it to blue." I don't know. And
02:11:06 ◼ ► then it never appeared. And I thought, "All right, maybe this is just a thing they can't do. You know,
02:11:09 ◼ ► they don't want to have an ugly, they're not going to stick a touch ID sensor on the front of your
02:11:13 ◼ ► iMac you have to touch. That would be weird. And you're not going to do with a Mac Mini and
02:11:17 ◼ ► whatever." So I was like, "Okay, it's just never going to happen." And then this happened. And I
02:11:20 ◼ ► was like, "Oh, they needed to redesign Secure Enclave so that it could accept like wireless,
02:11:25 ◼ ► direct wireless connections, doing some kind of proprietary thing over the, not the W, whatever
02:11:31 ◼ ► their wireless chip is." Yeah, the U1 maybe? I don't know. Who knows? Yeah, so there's something
02:11:37 ◼ ► going on where they control the protocol, they control the wireless thing, and Secure Enclave
02:11:41 ◼ ► can securely do wireless communication because it's only for M1 devices. And I thought that's
02:11:47 ◼ ► kind of cool actually. Yeah, I would anticipate that, I don't know when it would come out,
02:11:55 ◼ ► state of Apple security white paper? Oh yeah. I feel like learning how the, if they can explain
02:12:00 ◼ ► even in basic layman's terms, how the touch ID security works with the air gap, it sounds fast,
02:12:08 ◼ ► should be fascinating. I think you've talked about it on the podcast, the Apple Platform Security
02:12:13 ◼ ► Guide that came out in February. That was, I mean, I recommend listeners, if you have any interest
02:12:21 ◼ ► in how Apple does anything, that is one of the greatest documents Apple's ever produced. I could
02:12:33 ◼ ► this is just by the way also, but did you know, you probably know this, you know that you can't,
02:12:40 ◼ ► if your Macs, there are special hidden partitions you can't and should not erase on an M1 Mac. Yeah,
02:12:46 ◼ ► yeah. So if your M1 SSD dies, you cannot boot it up externally because the policy information
02:12:52 ◼ ► for external boot is stored in hidden partitions on the internal SSD. And that's one of these super
02:12:58 ◼ ► weird things and you can sort of extract it from the Platform Security Guide, but there's also like,
02:13:02 ◼ ► there's a thousand other little interesting details in there that has helped me as a writer,
02:13:08 ◼ ► but also as an M1 owner, just understanding how they pulled all this stuff off. Anyway,
02:13:14 ◼ ► it's a fascinating read and eventually I hope they'll update it sooner than another year or two
02:13:18 ◼ ► with this. Yeah, that's why I was thinking we may have to wait for it because I know it just came
02:13:23 ◼ ► out a few, just a few weeks ago. Yeah. But it's, you know, so I guess the other thing I would be
02:13:30 ◼ ► doing, our mutual friend John Siracusa disfavored by not mentioning the fact that these iMacs do not
02:13:36 ◼ ► have face ID. They've owned, you know, their only biometric is the touch ID, which is optional. You
02:13:41 ◼ ► have to pay a little bit extra for the keyboard. I forget. I think it's like 40 bucks. Yeah. If
02:13:46 ◼ ► you don't buy, if you, or do you, it's if you buy the low end model, it's not included, but if you
02:13:51 ◼ ► buy it, so they have like three tiers standard models. Yeah. And it's unclear because they don't
02:13:57 ◼ ► have the build to, cause you can't actually order them yet. They don't have the build to order
02:14:01 ◼ ► things. So you don't know, can I just get the lowest end new iMac and just upgrade the keyboard
02:14:08 ◼ ► to touch ID? I don't know. Probably, but, um, but they, you know, that's the thing about going
02:14:14 ◼ ► touch ID on the keyboard is it's apparently in lieu of face ID, uh, which I think would be
02:14:21 ◼ ► slicker. Um, but I don't know, I'm not sure if I'm overlooking something. Siracusa seems to think
02:14:27 ◼ ► that they should just have face ID, you know, you're right in front of it. There's always a
02:14:31 ◼ ► camera. I think there's a, if, I mean, I remember reading about the technology they're using. I
02:14:36 ◼ ► think they'd have to develop different technology, although because they're not tapping, um, battery
02:14:42 ◼ ► power to do it, they could probably do it. But I mean, it's, I think you have to be relatively
02:14:46 ◼ ► close. So do you want to have to like lean, like get closer to the camera, move your head? No,
02:14:52 ◼ ► closer, closer. Yeah. I don't know. But if you're close enough to touch the button on the keyboard,
02:14:57 ◼ ► aren't you inherently close enough? I don't know. Well, you could have the keyboard far away. I
02:15:00 ◼ ► think the distance, like I think I'm two feet. I have a tape measure. I'm currently, look, I could
02:15:05 ◼ ► live measurement. I am currently, uh, yeah, about 24 inches eyeball from, um, from my IMAX screen
02:15:12 ◼ ► as we talk. And I think a lot of people are like 18 to 24 inches away typically. So, um, that I
02:15:19 ◼ ► think may be the problem. Well, I've got the 20. I wonder, I wonder if it's not just that face ID is
02:15:24 ◼ ► by Apple's, you know, Tim Cook's spreadsheet numbers just too expensive because the, to me,
02:15:31 ◼ ► and to me, the tell on that is that that new iPad Air that was actually the first thing to have the
02:15:37 ◼ ► A14 in it last September has touch ID on a button instead of face ID, you know? I figured that was,
02:15:44 ◼ ► didn't you think that was pandemic Air though? That was a choice that was made for the pandemic,
02:15:47 ◼ ► that they didn't want to add to the, you know, I don't see, I think that was too late. I think that,
02:15:52 ◼ ► I don't think that, you know, for a device that debuted, I'm sorry. No, you're right. No,
02:15:56 ◼ ► that would have been too. I was thinking the iPad pro. Yeah. Uh, I, I mean, we know that Apple can
02:16:01 ◼ ► do seemingly anything. So my suspicion is they would need, um, have to have a separate hole cut
02:16:06 ◼ ► for an infrared camera in the, um, in the top where they already have that kind of built in
02:16:12 ◼ ► the glass on an iPhone or iPad. So, uh, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I, I like face ID at first. I
02:16:18 ◼ ► thought it was, I just did not get into it. And I was like, this is great. I said to myself just
02:16:22 ◼ ► before we all had to put on masks for a year. Um, I just think, I just think it might be that face
02:16:28 ◼ ► ID is, you know, and when this, my, my hypothetical iMac pro comes out sometime later this year,
02:16:35 ◼ ► I would think whether it's June or September or November, like one year after the first
02:16:48 ◼ ► Oh yeah. Cause then they can put in the extra buck 50 and cost of goods for, for putting it. Yeah.
02:16:53 ◼ ► And you know, and as we've said already, they, we know in the lab somewhere, there is an iMac,
02:16:58 ◼ ► uh, behind, you know, steel doors that does face ID. Cause of course they're testing it
02:17:06 ◼ ► in their scenarios or they wanted to, I don't know, maybe they're in cause you don't need,
02:17:12 ◼ ► it's weird because I think the, it's just easier to hide into the experience and move your phone
02:17:18 ◼ ► closer or farther away as necessary. Um, but it's also touch ID is a generally good experience.
02:17:23 ◼ ► You know, originally it was a little weird now. It's so, uh, incredibly reliable. I mean,
02:17:28 ◼ ► I didn't own, I had the 2015 MacBook, so I didn't get touch ID in a laptop until last spring. And,
02:17:35 ◼ ► um, I didn't really know I was missing it as much. And now I'm like, Oh my God, what was it like to
02:17:39 ◼ ► have to enter my password? I'm like, well, I have an iMac that I use as my office machine. So I'm,
02:17:44 ◼ ► I'm constantly looking at like, my finger is moving to my keyboard that doesn't have touch ID
02:17:49 ◼ ► as my iMac is prompting me for a password. I'm like, Oh God, I gotta take my password in again.
02:17:53 ◼ ► So it seems barbaric unless you just restarted. But you know, it does raise the question then
02:17:59 ◼ ► of the one thing Apple has never done yet is ship any device that supports two methods of biometric
02:18:12 ◼ ► near the twain shall meet if they were to make an M class iMac with face ID or a Mac book pro with
02:18:21 ◼ ► face ID, any Mac with face ID, what would happen if you paired a touch ID keyboard with it, which,
02:18:28 ◼ ► you know, it it's, and it's sort of a tricky question on the whole in the long run. I think
02:18:34 ◼ ► it's very obvious that our computers will be using more and more senses for lack of a better word
02:18:40 ◼ ► to do all sorts of things. I mean, they use cameras for all sorts of things now. Now they're using the
02:18:50 ◼ ► Our devices are gaining senses and the ways that a human recognizes another person, like if you and I
02:18:59 ◼ ► you know, ran into each other on the street, I would probably see you first. But if I heard your
02:19:04 ◼ ► voice, I would know, hey, that sounds like Glenn, right? Multiple senses are good. So it, you know,
02:19:10 ◼ ► face ID plus touch ID is in some sense better because it's certainly more secure if you were
02:19:16 ◼ ► doing, you know, like something so secure, you know, updating the operating system and it wants
02:19:22 ◼ ► to check both face ID and touch ID. I don't know. But what happens if it's like, ah, in the middle?
02:19:28 ◼ ► Do you get to choose, you know, if it's just like a typical, oh, you want to delete this one file
02:19:33 ◼ ► and the finder wants you to authenticate before you move it to the trash? Do you get to do either?
02:19:44 ◼ ► surprised because of mask wearing how often my phone's like, oh, you got to enter your password.
02:19:52 ◼ ► Pete; And the other thing about face ID is, hmm, wait, nothing that happens with face ID other than
02:20:00 ◼ ► unlocking the device, which is where you just want to get in. But when it's confirmation, oh, you
02:20:05 ◼ ► want to confirm a purchase or you want to confirm the destruction, you always have to, well, no,
02:20:11 ◼ ► you always have to double click a button to make sure it doesn't happen by accident, right? The
02:20:16 ◼ ► worst thing you'd ever want is you go to trash this important sensitive file and the computer's
02:20:22 ◼ ► like, well, let me double check with face ID. Oh, he's right in front of the computer. There it goes.
02:20:27 ◼ ► Deleted, right? And so if you have to confirm face ID with some kind of button push anyway,
02:20:36 ◼ ► well, why not just have touch ID on the button in the first place? Because then it's just the
02:20:44 ◼ ► Pete; Right. Because what's the, I mean, the ease of face ID is to not have to interact with,
02:20:50 ◼ ► I mean, even with the buttons, but like to unlock or something. It's a reduction in like
02:20:54 ◼ ► inefficient interaction that could cause rejection. So like getting your finger, touch ID works great,
02:21:00 ◼ ► but you still have to, it's often a two-hand operation or you got your thumbs in the right
02:21:04 ◼ ► spot so it can be awkward in a mobile device and face ID is very efficient. You know, you hold it
02:21:10 ◼ ► up, even if you have to double click, you do it one-handed and you just look at it, you do the
02:21:14 ◼ ► thing, ducked up, it's done. When you're on a keyboard, you're always, you just rest your finger
02:21:18 ◼ ► on touch ID. Oh, you want to confirm it. You hold your finger down. It says great, done. And that
02:21:22 ◼ ► it's a, I think it's a simpler interaction for that modality because it's right, the intentionality
02:21:28 ◼ ► behind it, but also just like where your hands and grip is related to what you're doing.
02:21:34 ◼ ► Pete; So anyway, we'll see, you know, but it's unanswered question. Anyway, I would love,
02:21:40 ◼ ► I know, and I know it would have been the answer to our face masking year is it would have been
02:21:45 ◼ ► great to have iPhones that did both face ID and touch ID on the power button, right? It's, you
02:21:52 ◼ ► know, and maybe they'll come out with it. It'll just be too, hopefully, hopefully too late for
02:21:57 ◼ ► face masks. I was just hoping they'd figure out a way, I think, I mean, I've read a lot about
02:22:01 ◼ ► secure enclave and I'm not a cryptographer, but I'd hoped that they would figure out a method of doing
02:22:06 ◼ ► no, I think, I mean, I think they've, they built it into such a hard coded mode to avoid,
02:22:13 ◼ ► you know, government and criminal and whatever interception that they can't just say, oh,
02:22:19 ◼ ► here's an update that lets you unlock your phone without face ID or with a poor face ID mask,
02:22:27 ◼ ► like an eyeball face ID mask for 15 minutes after the last time you updated it. Like they just
02:22:31 ◼ ► won't, I don't think they can do it. I'm not sure if they would have done it if they could,
02:22:40 ◼ ► Pete; Yeah, it is. I know one thing I've heard from ever since face ID came out and I heard from
02:22:44 ◼ ► during Fireball readers who are medical professionals and they wear face masks, you know,
02:22:49 ◼ ► in normal times and they say what a pain in the ass this whole thing has been. And I know that
02:22:56 ◼ ► culturally, it, you know, it's, everybody knows now, but like in most of Asia in flu season,
02:23:01 ◼ ► it's very common to see just, you know, normal years without a coronavirus pandemic. You just
02:23:06 ◼ ► see lots of people wearing face masks. And again, the face ID was met with objections there that in
02:23:13 ◼ ► pre-COVID US didn't exist. So, it's interesting that it's on Apple's radar now as a, oh yeah,
02:23:18 ◼ ► this hits home to us. You know, it's just like anything weather related where it's like, oh,
02:23:29 ◼ ► I mean, I was, I was delighted, as I know you were, that the CDC bowed to scientific wisdom and is
02:23:36 ◼ ► relaxing the outdoor masking recommendations by using science and clinical research. That's great.
02:23:42 ◼ ► But for me, I'm like, well, I'm going to wear a mask like 10 months of the year, either outdoors
02:23:46 ◼ ► or in congregate settings from now on, because I have seasonal allergies. This last two years,
02:23:51 ◼ ► I mean, look, I'm looking for bright linings, right? Any silver lining? My allergies have
02:23:55 ◼ ► been fantastic. And I saw my allergist a few months ago and he said, you know, you should
02:24:00 ◼ ► just wear a cloth mask from, you know, February to June any year now. I was like, oh, really?
02:24:17 ◼ ► Pete; And the number, yeah, and that's the other thing is I've had the flu twice in the last,
02:24:21 ◼ ► you know, two and three years ago or three or four years ago, and once I got the kind that
02:24:25 ◼ ► not only did I get it and then recover, I got, I had side effects that lasted for four months.
02:24:40 ◼ ► god damn it. So, I'm like, all right, so from February to June, I'm going to wear a mask
02:24:44 ◼ ► for allergies, and then from, I guess, September to May, I'm going to wear a mask for flu. So,
02:24:50 ◼ ► I guess you'll see me in June and July, July and August without a mask in the future because it'll
02:24:56 ◼ ► Pete; The thing that's so startling about the influenza numbers, and they were so worried
02:25:00 ◼ ► about it, they were like, oh my god, it could be a double whammy. But it's like, the precautions
02:25:04 ◼ ► we collectively took, even with all of the controversy over large swaths of America who
02:25:09 ◼ ► didn't want to wear masks and businesses who wanted to reopen as early as they could, and
02:25:15 ◼ ► as soon as the numbers came down a little bit, it's like, well, let's reopen everything, and then
02:25:18 ◼ ► the numbers spike back. On all of that nonsense all year long, what we were doing was enough to
02:25:24 ◼ ► completely, all effectively, I know, not 0.0 all the way, but 0.00 something, get rid of influenza.
02:25:37 ◼ ► Pete; Yeah, yeah. It's both horribly contagious and then, like, you know, it's like very contagious
02:25:43 ◼ ► and not contagious. Like, no fomite spread, basically, no outdoor, real outdoor transmission.
02:25:49 ◼ ► So, coronavirus only spreads into COVID-19, right? Limited cases, but apparently the flu,
02:25:58 ◼ ► Pete; It really is amazing that in the midst of a pandemic, it's the first time I can remember
02:26:02 ◼ ► where I've gone, like, I don't know, 14, 15 months now. I mean, because I say 14, 15 because I don't
02:26:07 ◼ ► think I was sick early last year either just by luck, but it's like, I haven't been sick in a
02:26:11 ◼ ► year. It's crazy. I mean… Pete; I know. There are, there's silver linings in the middle of
02:26:16 ◼ ► all the horror. It's like, there are some things. There's also, I mean, you know, again, sidebar,
02:26:20 ◼ ► but it's the, all these things were like, well, there might be an effective HIV vaccine. There
02:26:24 ◼ ► might be a vaccine against malaria. There might be, you're like, oh my god, you know, hundreds
02:26:28 ◼ ► of thousands of people died here and millions worldwide, but perhaps hundreds of millions of
02:26:33 ◼ ► people will live in the next 20 to 50 years because of improvements that were discovered
02:26:38 ◼ ► in the last two years. So, there is something to look forward to in terms of global health. I mean,
02:26:47 ◼ ► Pete; All right, let me take one last break here, thank our fourth and final bonus sponsor of the
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02:27:38 ◼ ► own brand. You don't have to stick with the pre-built templates. Anything you would want,
02:27:43 ◼ ► really, really great analytics. And by great, I mean like just a nice dashboard that makes total
02:27:49 ◼ ► sense at a glance and not something that looks like an airplane cockpit. Like, I don't know what any
02:27:55 ◼ ► of this is. Now, who's coming to your website from where, how often, boom, they've got it. Really one
02:28:01 ◼ ► of the best analytic dashboards I've ever seen. Great technical support, great prices. I can't
02:28:08 ◼ ► recommend them strongly enough. Keep them in the back of your mind for the next time you or somebody
02:28:11 ◼ ► you need, you know needs a website. And you can go to squarespace.com to get started and just
02:28:17 ◼ ► remember this offer code, talk show. No the, just talk show. But when you check out after your 30
02:28:23 ◼ ► day free trial is over, you get 10% off. You could prepay for a year, save 10%. That's like getting a
02:28:48 ◼ ► that was Apple's last announcement. I sort of have the least to say about it because it's like,
02:28:55 ◼ ► I expected them to say it has the A14X. In my mind, what an A14X is, isn't really different
02:29:02 ◼ ► from the M1. So now that I think, I'm like, why did I even think that? Because like I told you,
02:29:07 ◼ ► I knew it was going to have A14 caliber cores, the Firestorm and Ice Storm. Because it's the iPad Pro,
02:29:13 ◼ ► of course it would be for high performance instead of just too high performance. And it would have an
02:29:18 ◼ ► eight core GPU instead of four core GPU. That's the M1. And what else is there? I mean,
02:29:25 ◼ ► Thunderbolt, right? Well, the iPad Pro can use Thunderbolt. So it's Thunderbolt/USB4 ports. So
02:29:37 ◼ ► become an iPad. It turned out the iPad became a Mac. Here's my question. Let me ask you a
02:29:43 ◼ ► provocative question. So why not, I mean, it's not that provocative. Why not have a Mac OS
02:29:57 ◼ ► There, it's like this, there's this whole, I haven't linked to them yet, but there's like,
02:30:02 ◼ ► I have a whole built up stash of links to what I'm calling the iPad malcontents. And it's not
02:30:17 ◼ ► Like if I were to complain too much about Windows or PC users complaining about the Mac,
02:30:23 ◼ ► and you're like, "You don't even know what it is." No, I'm talking about people like Jason Snell
02:30:28 ◼ ► and people who use the iPad full-time for work are the ones who have the most astute criticism of it
02:30:37 ◼ ► in this spectrum of, "This is the best hardware I own. I love it. I love so much about this device
02:30:45 ◼ ► as it is, but yet there's software on the Mac that is so much more powerful. Why can't I use that
02:30:53 ◼ ► on the iPad?" And is the answer a Mac compatibility layer? I mean, I know that the one Verge,
02:30:59 ◼ ► I forget who wrote it, but the Verge story was like, "Just put Mac OS on iPad," or something
02:31:04 ◼ ► like that. Well, right. And that's, I mean, right, that would be them. I mean, Apple will never
02:31:08 ◼ ► capitulate, I don't think ever. I say never, and then it's like, "We'll never put TV on an iPad."
02:31:24 ◼ ► with a keyboard is so very close to a touch screen Mac. So, what is the difference? But I think
02:31:30 ◼ ► just the way they said we're going to have an iOS and iPad OS, I think Mac OS will remain
02:31:39 ◼ ► and locking down the app. So, if Apple makes it possible to run Mac OS apps on an iPad Pro,
02:31:49 ◼ ► only be Mac App Store apps that you can run. Right, and then that immediately rules out a
02:31:54 ◼ ► bunch of the professional apps people are talking about. And I know there's a bunch of professional
02:32:01 ◼ ► Right. Does that make it worth them doing it now, to do that? Probably, I don't know. I don't think
02:32:08 ◼ ► it's suddenly opening up an iPad audience doesn't make it worthwhile for them to become part of the
02:32:13 ◼ ► App Store environment. iPad, as exemplified by the iPad Pro in particular, because it's truly
02:32:21 ◼ ► puts, it's not just Pro meaning more expensive or nicer, it's Pro meaning has truly professional
02:32:55 ◼ ► here's this thing that is 11 years old platform, and you still can't write iPad software on an
02:33:02 ◼ ► iPad. Not even close. There's nothing—I mean, who knows? Maybe this is the year where they
02:33:07 ◼ ► announce Xcode for iPad, and this is a lament that only has five weeks of life. I don't know.
02:33:32 ◼ ► Everybody who has one on a Mac already loves it, and most Xcode projects are way faster.
02:33:46 ◼ ► This is the thing that drove me crazy about—I had my iMac—I actually just switched to an external
02:33:50 ◼ ► SSD finally, a Thunderbolt-based one, for my iMac at a Fusion drive, and it took me forever,
02:33:55 ◼ ► and whatever. So I was—Fusion was generally fine except for certain apps. So I got the M1,
02:34:01 ◼ ► and running Creative Cloud, launching Photoshop and using it on my M1 with 16 gigs was orders
02:34:09 ◼ ► of magnitude faster than running Photoshop on a quad-core 2017 iMac. I'm like, "Oh, for great—you
02:34:15 ◼ ► know, what are they in emulation?" And I'm like, "Oh, come on." So yeah, I can imagine how the
02:34:22 ◼ ► I've seen—and Photoshop comes up a lot, because there is Photoshop for iPad. Apple even showed it
02:34:29 ◼ ► off in the iPad Pro thing, and I hear—I bring this up, or I didn't even have to bring it up,
02:34:34 ◼ ► and people who read my site watch the show, and they're like, "That's not real Photoshop.
02:34:43 ◼ ► Pete: They have Photoshop for M1 now. It doesn't have all the features yet, but they have a,
02:35:08 ◼ ► Jay; It doesn't all add up, but it's sort of—to me, it's sort of like the thing with the Apple TV
02:35:14 ◼ ► hardware, where people are like, "Well, 200 bucks is way too expensive compared to Roku's,
02:35:23 ◼ ► they can't just make another Apple TV that costs $180." And it's like, "No, yeah, they can,
02:35:28 ◼ ► and that's fine." And it's like, they can't just keep shipping these incredible iPad pros and not
02:35:35 ◼ ► have software like the Mac, Mac-caliber software. Like, where's Final Cut Pro, right? What's the
02:35:41 ◼ ► point of putting the Pro Display XDR-caliber micro-LED thing in the 12.9-inch iPad? Well,
02:35:48 ◼ ► if it's such a great thing, like, for color correction, why is there no Final Cut for iPad?
02:35:53 ◼ ► Pete; Right, right. But here's the thing, is once, I mean, maybe this is, there's always like the
02:35:58 ◼ ► reverse Trojan horse or something, I don't know what you want to call it, where with every
02:36:02 ◼ ► developer working to create ARM-compatible M1-targeted versions of their Mac apps, then
02:36:12 ◼ ► Jay; Ah, I just don't see it, though. I don't see it. I just don't see them adding AppKit
02:36:22 ◼ ► you've written, you don't have to run, you don't necessarily have to run Mac OS apps in iPadOS,
02:36:29 ◼ ► but you can have M1-targeted apps that are designed for Mac OS that are easy to then make iPadOS
02:36:36 ◼ ► versions of, but only through the App Store, right? I mean, it sort of happens today a bit,
02:36:40 ◼ ► but I mean, that seemed like some of the issues going on with Catalyst and I know all these
02:36:44 ◼ ► various efforts to provide some kind of platform synthesis, but it's weird that the iPad winds up
02:36:51 ◼ ► being the loser in that scenario and not the Mac. Jay; I don't know. You know, and is it the loser?
02:37:07 ◼ ► Pete; All these things, the professional, I think you're right. I mean, when I look at this now,
02:37:11 ◼ ► it's like, what is an iPad Pro that is not a Mac? It's like it has cellular connectivity built in,
02:37:22 ◼ ► you know, it's got camera stuff. It's got better cameras front and back and whatever, and a lot of
02:37:27 ◼ ► the rest of it is like, it's not really, you know, there's nothing else that's that different. We get
02:37:32 ◼ ► more ports than a Mac, typically. So yeah, it's like, what is an iPad for when it's so close to a
02:37:46 ◼ ► I just kind of feel like the way that it is, maybe this is it. There is no other shoe to drop,
02:37:52 ◼ ► and this is just, at this many years in, maybe just accept that, yeah, it's, you know, there's
02:37:57 ◼ ► a lot of stuff, you know, Safari and Notes and Apple Mail, you know, it all sort of works, but
02:38:04 ◼ ► I mean, even, you know, Apple Mail, maybe that's a bad example. Like, why in the world with Apple
02:38:24 ◼ ► Latin America means iPadOS 14, iOS 14. But yeah, there's weird absences, weird gaps, and…
02:38:32 ◼ ► Jay; The smart mailbox thing kills me. I live by a smart inbox that I just set up with all of my
02:38:39 ◼ ► inbox mail from seven days, and that's the one I try to zero out, and then, you know, because I've
02:38:44 ◼ ► got tens of thousands of other unread emails from 10, 15 years. But for the most part, you know,
02:38:50 ◼ ► I consider my inbox empty if my seven days of email, smart mailbox is empty. Well, you can't
02:38:56 ◼ ► do it on an iPad. Pete; Smart albums in photos also, you can't use those. They have the powers
02:39:02 ◼ ► there, the processing's there, why can't we do it? Jay; And it doesn't, yeah, I don't know.
02:39:06 ◼ ► Pete; I don't know, I mean, I think that is, I mean, I will say that again, though, is like,
02:39:09 ◼ ► what is an iPad Pro for when it's so close to a Mac with similar specs? And it's a different
02:39:16 ◼ ► experience still because of the, I mean, the touch element, the pencil capability, the portability,
02:39:22 ◼ ► the built-in cellular aspect, the fact that you can detach a keyboard at will or not use one at
02:39:28 ◼ ► all. I mean, all of these things are differentiations, but iPadOS doesn't live up to macOS,
02:39:34 ◼ ► is what I mean. I'm not a full-time iPad user, partly because I found, I'd rather be on a Mac,
02:39:45 ◼ ► iMac with an external 4K monitor and a laptop, and I switched between those because I did not find my
02:40:27 ◼ ► I found that I would lose hours a day working on my iPad in the kitchen because it was so much better
02:40:34 ◼ ► and so much more useful for a lot of the stuff I wanted to do because I had this trackpad and
02:40:38 ◼ ► a Magic Keyboard. And then I would think about it and think, you know what, though? I just keep,
02:40:42 ◼ ► a lot of my work when I'm working on my iPad is sending things into a to-do list to do when I get
02:40:47 ◼ ► to my Mac. And if I had just spent the last 90 minutes on my Mac, I would have just done that.
02:40:54 ◼ ► You know what I mean? It's like that trap that any to-do system can fall into where you feel like
02:41:00 ◼ ► I'm totally organized. I've got my whole life in this list, but it's like you're not actually doing
02:41:04 ◼ ► it. You've just put everything into a list. And it's like, that's how I often feel when I spend
02:41:08 ◼ ► too much time doing anything other than just reading on my iPad, which I do love for comfort
02:41:14 ◼ ► and for just shifting my posture and going to a different room. But if I really try to do anything
02:41:19 ◼ ► else, I find myself far more hamstrung. But I know other people feel otherwise, and they feel
02:41:25 ◼ ► like their mind has been freed when they're on the iPad. But yet, there's just so little headroom for
02:41:34 ◼ ► power using on iPad. I mean, smart mailboxes are a perfect example. I'm sure whatever the percentage
02:41:54 ◼ ► part of the frustration, I think, that it's coming out by calling it the M1 and not calling it the
02:42:02 ◼ ► A14X. It's just rubbing it in your face that you know the device is capable of doing it very
02:42:08 ◼ ► quickly, right? You can see how fast. Anyway, I don't know. I was going to talk to you about
02:42:18 ◼ ► So here's what my kids do before they go to bed. You know, my kids go to bed relatively early.
02:42:24 ◼ ► We've somehow managed to make that happen. And their trick is if they want to stay up later,
02:42:32 ◼ ► They're like, "All right, let's start with the—" No. Here, wait. I'll give you my one sentence.
02:42:37 ◼ ► All right. "A non-fungible token is like a Post-it note that says, 'I owe you one art.'"
02:42:47 ◼ ► Yeah, sure. As long as you keep that—as long as the Post-it note doesn't fall off the refrigerator,
02:42:57 ◼ ► All right. All right. We squeezed it in. Glenn, it's always a pleasure to have you on the show.
02:43:06 ◼ ► Oh, gosh. Let's see. Well, I've been finding stuff over at Macworld.com, as usual. Remember
02:43:11 ◼ ► when people used to get excited about CMSs, John? We talked about content management systems.
02:43:45 ◼ ► Yeah. You got the one. I mean, so they're not numbers. It's one of a hundred-ish. Like,
02:43:51 ◼ ► there's a shipping issue, right? So, I figured we had to make—my collaborator who made the
02:43:58 ◼ ► wooden cases, which are amazing—we had to make a little more than a hundred in case something went
02:44:02 ◼ ► wrong, right? And she was going to get one. I have a couple, and so there's a few above a hundred.
02:44:07 ◼ ► But we were like, "What if something goes wrong in shipping?" It seems like it's really likely.
02:44:11 ◼ ► So, if someone's museum was destroyed, they were insured. But I'm like, "I'm not going to
02:44:15 ◼ ► just say, 'Sorry, I'm giving you your money back.' That seems horrible." So, we made some extras.
02:44:20 ◼ ► So, we have—it's technically an edition of a hundred, and then we have just a handful more,
02:44:25 ◼ ► and I've shipped ninety—well, ninety-five of them so far sold, and a couple people for reasons that
02:44:32 ◼ ► are unknown to me. It gave me money and have not given me their address after two years. That's
02:44:37 ◼ ► their prerogative. Anyway, so there's a handful. Like, once I've shipped a hundred or sold a hundred,
02:44:42 ◼ ► then I've got a handful more. But anyway, there's only like, I don't know, there's like a handful
02:44:51 ◼ ► Pete: I got, for the first time in my life, I have an office, home office with nice built-in shelves
02:45:05 ◼ ► Pete; There's a big letter. This is one of the bonuses is if you tell me your initials,
02:45:09 ◼ ► which people have done, I've tried to find some nice wooden type. I got a piece, you know,
02:45:17 ◼ ► Pete; A G. Wood type is, I think I have some nice G's, as you can imagine with my name.
02:45:22 ◼ ► Wood type is this amazing thing because it was really made mostly from the mid-1800s to like
02:45:27 ◼ ► 1980s but mostly in kind of this one century period and it's just all kind of jumbled up.
02:45:31 ◼ ► Some people have preserved collections and some stuff was just thrown away or used for firewood.
02:45:35 ◼ ► And so, you go on eBay and you can buy mixed lots of it and so I bought tons of it in order to have
02:45:40 ◼ ► good sets to send people and examples and whatever and I'm digging through one piece and some wood
02:45:45 ◼ ► type is stamped with a metal stamp on the side with the foundry and I get this one piece, it's
02:45:50 ◼ ► a lowercase umlauted U and I look up the code, the name, because there's people who do this thing and
02:45:56 ◼ ► they research, you can find all the stamps of every wooden type company including the different
02:46:00 ◼ ► periods and I'm like, oh, this piece of type was made in 1869 in Geneva and there's something,
02:46:07 ◼ ► I don't know, so weird and it looks just like a piece of type I have here that was made probably
02:46:10 ◼ ► in like 1950 in, you know, Wisconsin. And anyway, there's just something so wonderful about that
02:46:16 ◼ ► where it's just like this ordinary object, like this is 150 years old. That's really cool,
02:46:25 ◼ ► it's just a U. All right, well, anybody who wants one, I can vouch for it. It's also a sort of
02:46:30 ◼ ► thing, it's not for everybody, but if you think it's for you, it is for you because it is exactly
02:46:35 ◼ ► what you think it is and it's just a delightful little package of this little hero set of—
02:46:41 ◼ ► It was given as a gift to more people than I would have expected and a few people donated it to their
02:46:46 ◼ ► universities or bottom for university teaching collections. The other thing I always appreciate
02:46:51 ◼ ► is Take Control Books publishes all my technical books and so we did this M-series book because I
02:46:58 ◼ ► was writing a book about securing your Mac, we updated a book that was a few years old,
02:47:02 ◼ ► and dug into all the new security stuff and kind of the new sort of Apple— Apple is doing so much
02:47:06 ◼ ► physical security of devices now, they have to kind of rethink their whole orientation towards
02:47:12 ◼ ► security. The M-series book is, I would really, really recommend it. I love it, it's very kind of
02:47:23 ◼ ► Like new books come out and I just get them, but I read that one and it's so interesting because
02:47:28 ◼ ► as a long time— and I'm sure this applies to so many people who listen to my show— as a long-time
02:47:53 ◼ ► Yeah, and I wrote this because I was doing the Securing book in like January, or December,
02:47:57 ◼ ► January, and I kept coming up with stuff that was like, "Oh, but not in the M1. Oh, but not in the
02:48:01 ◼ ► M1." I'm like, "Oh, there's a book worth of M1 stuff." Tell me if you come across this because
02:48:06 ◼ ► the weirdest one is I'm digging around— and you know Howard Oakley who writes Eclectic Light is
02:48:10 ◼ ► his website? Howard is the nicest person, it turns out. Had a lot of incredibly pleasant interactions
02:48:15 ◼ ► with him lately, and he's such a knowledgeable person, generous with his information, and I'm not
02:48:20 ◼ ► sure anybody else in the world outside of Apple seems to know or document as much about APFS
02:48:25 ◼ ► and the M1 and boot modes than he does. So, he's the place I go to. Anyway, I'm digging around,
02:48:33 ◼ ► I think in the Apple Platform Security Guide, and I'm reading Howard's site, and I'm like,
02:48:42 ◼ ► recovery is now Recovery OS. That's sort of the term only used in the Platform Security Guide.
02:48:47 ◼ ► So, in your M1, there's not just a recovery mode, recovery partition. If that fails, there's a
02:48:53 ◼ ► backup one that you can trigger, but it's kind of like the AB things on a spaceship, you know,
02:48:57 ◼ ► they send probes off and there's two, you know, just in case one of the computers fails. So,
02:49:00 ◼ ► we actually have two recovery partitions in case one gets corrupted. You've got a backup one that
02:49:06 ◼ ► has to—has slightly different features, but it'll work seamlessly, and if it boots, it'll actually
02:49:11 ◼ ► restore the other one and then switch and become the main one. You're like, "What the—?" You know,
02:49:16 ◼ ► this is just hidden in the M1s, and there's very few circumstances, hopefully, under which you'd
02:49:22 ◼ ► have to deal with it. And then Apple did a whole thing about reviving or restoring firmware,
02:49:27 ◼ ► which is available on Intel's, I had no idea about it. Intel Macs, it's just as weird on M1s.
02:49:39 ◼ ► keyboard shortcuts for starting up, the boot modes on a M1, there's like five boot modes,
02:49:50 ◼ ► Yeah, but that's what you need to do. And I love the take control books, which is great.
02:49:54 ◼ ► But much like my comment about modern streaming television show needing to have episodes of not
02:50:04 ◼ ► of the length they need to be and no more. Whereas, and I know you know this as a long-time
02:50:08 ◼ ► book author, it used to be that, oh, you know how people buy a book when they need a computer book?
02:50:14 ◼ ► They go into bookstore and they look for the thickest book with the subject that they're
02:50:25 ◼ ► There was this race to have the most pages. And that's why, you know, your tiny type museum is on
02:50:32 ◼ ► one side of my shelves, on the other side are all of my old computer books, most of which look like
02:50:44 ◼ ► So, you will get an NFT explanation eventually. This is Joe and I, we realized, and I think the
02:50:50 ◼ ► book, you know, I had a friend who was a colleague, worked across the hall of place I was at, who
02:50:55 ◼ ► she was a home birth midwife. And she eventually left midwifing because she realized she got so
02:51:02 ◼ ► many people coming in who she felt were not qualified from a safety and health perspective.
02:51:10 ◼ ► like, don't give birth at home. And she found that too depressing. So, she went to a different
02:51:14 ◼ ► field. And I'm like, this cryptocurrency book may actually wind up being a lot of reasons why you
02:51:19 ◼ ► should never invest in cryptocurrency, but I'm going to be honest about it. And if you want to
02:51:23 ◼ ► understand how it works, it's going to say it. And then it's like, okay, with all of this in mind,
02:51:28 ◼ ► here's how you can do it safely and intelligently and whatever. But as I go through it, I'm like,
02:51:32 ◼ ► man, am I just going to write a book that's like, hey, just don't do this. I don't think it'll do
02:51:36 ◼ ► You see the story, a couple of weeks ago, the Washington Post had a story about some poor guy
02:51:39 ◼ ► who had a bunch of Bitcoin and put it on a USB device that's meant like a Bitcoin currency holder.
02:51:48 ◼ ► And Bitcoin went up in value to like $600,000. And then he went to the app store. And the context
02:51:57 ◼ ► of the story is, hey, you think you can trust the app store? Well, this guy went, the company who
02:52:06 ◼ ► They don't even have an app. But some scammers made an app with their company name, I don't know
02:52:10 ◼ ► what it is, Trexor or something like this. So he thought it was legit. He put into it his backup
02:52:17 ◼ ► key to his Bitcoin, which is like only supposed to be used in recovery if you lose the device.
02:52:29 ◼ ► he's looked into this and those devices. He said, that's the key that they tell you to never enter
02:52:34 ◼ ► anywhere for any reason. And he entered it into an app. So he was ripped off. He is the victim,
02:52:39 ◼ ► and I'm not blaming him. But he did use the key that they said never do this with the key.
02:52:49 ◼ ► Joe: You're never ever, ever supposed to do it. But he plugged it right in. But it's also the case
02:52:55 ◼ ► that you're not, it's too complicated. This is why I don't, like when you, we don't keep our
02:53:01 ◼ ► checking accounts on USB devices in our home. We go to a real bank. You know what I mean?
02:53:07 ◼ ► Well, if you had cash, if you had $600,000 in $100 bills, you would do a much better job protecting
02:53:17 ◼ ► it than this guy did with, you'd never act the way as loosey goosey with the Bitcoin. It'd be
02:53:22 ◼ ► like, it's like if he kept $600,000 in cash in a mailbox in front of his house and then just had
02:53:30 ◼ ► like a padlock and then somebody was like, well, I need to do service on this. Can I have the key
02:53:33 ◼ ► to the padlock? He's like, here you go. You know, here's one of the things about Bitcoin is there
02:53:37 ◼ ► are billions, maybe tens of billions of dollars at the current exchange rate that are lost forever
02:53:42 ◼ ► because they're locked up. I met this guy years ago and I was writing a Bitcoin story for The
02:53:50 ◼ ► And it turned out he was generating in his little apartment because of a fluke in timing about
02:53:55 ◼ ► equipment availability, like some significant single digit percentage of all Bitcoin mined in
02:53:59 ◼ ► the country, or in the world, sorry, was being generated in that guy's apartment for just a brief
02:54:03 ◼ ► period of time. And he said, oh yeah, I've got these hard drives, this is my cold storage,
02:54:07 ◼ ► and they've died and I can't recover the data off them. And they had like, I don't remember how many
02:54:12 ◼ ► Bitcoins it was, but by today's dollars, it might've been hundreds of millions of dollars today.
02:54:17 ◼ ► And I'm just thinking about, it's such a weird thing. It's like, well, I put my money in a
02:54:21 ◼ ► flammable bag and if I don't enter the key right, then the bag catches on fire and all the money's
02:54:26 ◼ ► burned up forever. I don't think that's a good way to keep money. It's like the Bruce Schneier
02:54:31 ◼ ► remark that, you know, that so many people think like the worst thing you could possibly do with an
02:54:36 ◼ ► important password is write it down on a piece of paper because piece of paper, that seems
02:54:40 ◼ ► terribly insecure. And Bruce Schneier's argument is no, we're actually very, very good at keeping,
02:54:46 ◼ ► if you know you have important information on an important piece of paper, we're naturally evolved
02:54:51 ◼ ► to know how to protect it and keep track of it and put it in, oh, this is where I put important
02:54:55 ◼ ► pieces of paper and that's where it is and keep it safe. And it's almost certainly more secure
02:55:00 ◼ ► than anything a lay person could ever do digitally, right? I remember there was a story a couple of
02:55:08 ◼ ► months ago or maybe a year ago about people who've lost access to their Bitcoins. And there was one
02:55:13 ◼ ► guy who had tens of millions, maybe more, maybe hundreds of millions and whatever contraption
02:55:26 ◼ ► And he's like near, he's got like 10 guesses and he's used eight. And honest to God, I mean,
02:55:31 ◼ ► it would drive anybody insane. I mean, I think I'm relatively very well balanced emotionally and
02:55:40 ◼ ► mental health wise. If that were me, I would, I think they'd have to lock me up. I mean,
02:55:46 ◼ ► Yeah, if they said, "You're going to lose $20 million if you enter this code wrong." I mean,
02:55:51 ◼ ► And he sort of has some guesses, you know what I mean? Like he kind of thinks, you know what I
02:55:56 ◼ ► mean? Like the way that a lot of us have certain combinations and ways that we make when you get
02:56:01 ◼ ► to make your own password, which you really probably shouldn't do anymore. But you know,
02:56:05 ◼ ► you have some ideas about old passwords, you know? And it's like, I don't know, did I use a zero
02:56:15 ◼ ► It's a terrifying thing. And we're reading these stories all the time. I mean, you know, this is
02:56:20 ◼ ► one of the—and we won't get into this right now—but it's one of the things that's weird about
02:56:24 ◼ ► cryptocurrency is I think the total value of all that outstanding is valued at like almost $2
02:56:28 ◼ ► trillion now, I think. But it's a weird thing because it's not really. I mean, that's the
02:56:33 ◼ ► exchange rate. So at some level, it's worth nothing, unlike fiat currency, which is backed by
02:56:38 ◼ ► the full faith and credit of a government, where, you know, the government's going to demand your
02:56:42 ◼ ► taxes in that money, and they're going to pay you in that money, and they're going to pay all their
02:56:45 ◼ ► debts in that money, and so forth. So there is some basis, whatever it is, of fiat currency. But it is
02:56:50 ◼ ► that thing. It's like, you could have a run in the bank. It's like if everybody tried to cash out
02:56:53 ◼ ► their Bitcoin at once, it's worth practically nothing. So it's this weird, like, quantum
02:56:58 ◼ ► superposition of like, you know, your money's worth a huge amount of money, and your Bitcoin's
02:57:02 ◼ ► worth a huge amount of value if you can access it, and then if you can get it through an exchange
02:57:06 ◼ ► system and retrieve it in a fungible form. But yeah, I feel like we're going to have a story
02:57:27 ◼ ► over and over again): I remember reading a story about somebody who, like, as a gimmick
02:57:42 ◼ ► Chris (over and over again): I had like, $40 in Bitcoin, I bought like $40 in Bitcoin several
02:57:47 ◼ ► years ago and totally forgot about it and it's gone and I don't know if it was stolen or I
02:57:56 ◼ ► that would have been like $8,000 now or whatever it was. I did the math when I bought it because
02:58:00 ◼ ► I found the receipt and I was like, well, you know, that's not life changing. I'm still like, I had,
02:58:10 ◼ ► I was registering domain names in 1994, I think it was, and some of the domains I registered
02:58:16 ◼ ► were later sold for vast amounts of money. I did not receive the vast amounts, I received some
02:58:24 ◼ ► that's the one I missed, Bitcoin. I should have bought like 10 Bitcoin for $10 and never sold
02:58:29 ◼ ► Pete: Yeah, I kind of regret that I didn't either. Just a little, you know, just, I don't know,