The Incomparable

00:00:00 ◼   ► the intemperate or podcast number eight [TS]

00:00:05 ◼   ► every Morris well get well [TS]

00:00:09 ◼   ► welcome back to the incomparable podcast [TS]

00:00:12 ◼   ► on your host Jason snow and tonight [TS]

00:00:13 ◼   ► we're going to be talking about one of [TS]

00:00:15 ◼   ► my very favorite books i guess you could [TS]

00:00:19 ◼   ► say of all time it is the now-legendary [TS]

00:00:22 ◼   ► DC Comics alan moore and dave gibbons [TS]

00:00:27 ◼   ► production of watchmen first published [TS]

00:00:31 ◼   ► in nineteen eighty-six by DC Comics it [TS]

00:00:35 ◼   ► does not use any of the traditional DC [TS]

00:00:36 ◼   ► superheroes instead it's sort of a [TS]

00:00:38 ◼   ► skewed version of originally some comic [TS]

00:00:41 ◼   ► book heroes from a different comic book [TS]

00:00:43 ◼   ► company that DC acquired in a [TS]

00:00:46 ◼   ► interesting kind of intellectual [TS]

00:00:47 ◼   ► property transaction which is ironic [TS]

00:00:49 ◼   ► given what is happening with the [TS]

00:00:51 ◼   ► watchman today which is that DC is using [TS]

00:00:54 ◼   ► their intellectual property to make [TS]

00:00:55 ◼   ► prequels to alan moore and dave given [TS]

00:00:57 ◼   ► seminal book watchman we will talk about [TS]

00:01:00 ◼   ► that later on but we're going to focus [TS]

00:01:01 ◼   ► most of the the podcast today on [TS]

00:01:04 ◼   ► watchman itself the original work from [TS]

00:01:08 ◼   ► 1986 joining me to discuss watchman [TS]

00:01:12 ◼   ► famous most the most applauded comic [TS]

00:01:15 ◼   ► book I think of all time probably are [TS]

00:01:18 ◼   ► Lisa Schmeisser hi Lisa hiring doing [TS]

00:01:21 ◼   ► great thanks for being here [TS]

00:01:22 ◼   ► Steve Lutz is also here hi Steve howdy [TS]

00:01:26 ◼   ► Jason get the doctor [TS]

00:01:27 ◼   ► nice talking to you too thanks for being [TS]

00:01:28 ◼   ► here and we have been Boychuk I been her [TS]

00:01:32 ◼   ► please do this entire podcast in a [TS]

00:01:38 ◼   ► monotone there that would be that would [TS]

00:01:40 ◼   ► be something and also joining us our own [TS]

00:01:43 ◼   ► nite owl i don't really know where i'm [TS]

00:01:46 ◼   ► going with their Tony similar hi Tony [TS]

00:01:48 ◼   ► hi alright so watchman uh my wife likes [TS]

00:01:53 ◼   ► to make fun of me and for many things [TS]

00:01:54 ◼   ► but about watchmen about my watchman [TS]

00:01:56 ◼   ► obsession i have at last count i think i [TS]

00:02:00 ◼   ► have four copies of watchmen in [TS]

00:02:03 ◼   ► different forms [TS]

00:02:04 ◼   ► I've got the original issues the pic the [TS]

00:02:08 ◼   ► trade paperback the original trade [TS]

00:02:10 ◼   ► paperback a book club edition hardcover [TS]

00:02:13 ◼   ► of the original know of the original [TS]

00:02:16 ◼   ► trade paperback a book cover and then [TS]

00:02:18 ◼   ► and then the absolute edition which came [TS]

00:02:21 ◼   ► out a few years ago I did [TS]

00:02:23 ◼   ► I was at the height of my comic book [TS]

00:02:25 ◼   ► collecting a period in 1986 when [TS]

00:02:29 ◼   ► watchman came out and in fact I saw [TS]

00:02:31 ◼   ► promo for it in the newsletter from the [TS]

00:02:34 ◼   ► comic book shop where I where I bought [TS]

00:02:35 ◼   ► my comics and and as a result i can [TS]

00:02:38 ◼   ► actually say and this is one of the very [TS]

00:02:39 ◼   ► few times that I've been on the ground [TS]

00:02:41 ◼   ► floor of something that's notable i [TS]

00:02:43 ◼   ► bought watchman number one when it came [TS]

00:02:46 ◼   ► out so so I got to read it i would say [TS]

00:02:50 ◼   ► over 12 months but as anybody who read [TS]

00:02:52 ◼   ► the original issues knows the 12 issue [TS]

00:02:54 ◼   ► didn't come out after one month you get [TS]

00:02:56 ◼   ► away two months to get that final [TS]

00:02:57 ◼   ► conclusion to the story so over 13 [TS]

00:03:01 ◼   ► months i read that story and then have [TS]

00:03:02 ◼   ► read it you know in book form since then [TS]

00:03:04 ◼   ► and I thought I would start there which [TS]

00:03:06 ◼   ► is to ask you guys about what your kind [TS]

00:03:09 ◼   ► of personal relationship with this with [TS]

00:03:11 ◼   ► this book is did you read it early on [TS]

00:03:13 ◼   ► did you discover later [TS]

00:03:15 ◼   ► I'm just I'm I'm kind of curious how you [TS]

00:03:17 ◼   ► all came to to read watchmen Lisa why [TS]

00:03:19 ◼   ► don't we start with you i read the trade [TS]

00:03:21 ◼   ► paperback in 1987 on a model un school [TS]

00:03:24 ◼   ► trip um got no good did story gets [TS]

00:03:29 ◼   ► better on [TS]

00:03:30 ◼   ► I don't know how it could be lonely [TS]

00:03:32 ◼   ► enough than the the young men with whom [TS]

00:03:34 ◼   ► I was some on the Syria delicate [TS]

00:03:37 ◼   ► delegation from other didn't didn't want [TS]

00:03:39 ◼   ► me to read it because they were afraid [TS]

00:03:40 ◼   ► it would offend my delicate female [TS]

00:03:41 ◼   ► sensibilities on account of you know [TS]

00:03:43 ◼   ► with the rape and the the dog murdering [TS]

00:03:46 ◼   ► and other violence and mayhem and so on [TS]

00:03:48 ◼   ► and so forth [TS]

00:03:49 ◼   ► dog were during its number two for you [TS]

00:03:50 ◼   ► that's just didn't want to deserve [TS]

00:03:54 ◼   ► anything else [TS]

00:03:55 ◼   ► um this is true so it was aight i [TS]

00:03:59 ◼   ► actually never physically grabbing the [TS]

00:04:00 ◼   ► book from from one of them and then [TS]

00:04:01 ◼   ► running to the back of the the school [TS]

00:04:03 ◼   ► bus and sitting in the back of the bus [TS]

00:04:04 ◼   ► in and reading through it once and then [TS]

00:04:07 ◼   ► having to stop and look out the window [TS]

00:04:08 ◼   ► for a bit and then reading it again to [TS]

00:04:10 ◼   ► make sure i have understood what i just [TS]

00:04:11 ◼   ► read and then you demanded to be put on [TS]

00:04:14 ◼   ► the delegation from Antarctica was this [TS]

00:04:16 ◼   ► event actually in Syria it seems like [TS]

00:04:18 ◼   ► kind of a long bus ride [TS]

00:04:20 ◼   ► i wiii i was living in Northern Virginia [TS]

00:04:24 ◼   ► the time i think it was in southern [TS]

00:04:25 ◼   ► Virginia and the school bus had a meet [TS]

00:04:28 ◼   ► what basically a governor the school bus [TS]

00:04:29 ◼   ► headed governor so couldn't go more than [TS]

00:04:31 ◼   ► 55 miles an hour [TS]

00:04:32 ◼   ► oh wow yeah long bus ride [TS]

00:04:36 ◼   ► 022 reads on a long bus ride yeah yeah [TS]

00:04:39 ◼   ► when it blew my mind because it was like [TS]

00:04:41 ◼   ► it was unlike anything I had I had ever [TS]

00:04:44 ◼   ► read [TS]

00:04:44 ◼   ► yeah yeah well so so we'll come back to [TS]

00:04:47 ◼   ► that but moving on to Steve what about [TS]

00:04:50 ◼   ► you [TS]

00:04:51 ◼   ► well I was not a big comic book guy as a [TS]

00:04:55 ◼   ► kid but I was I was fairly well-versed [TS]

00:04:57 ◼   ► in some stuff like amazing spider-man [TS]

00:04:59 ◼   ► and Fantastic Four [TS]

00:05:01 ◼   ► I think I had a few Howard the Duck [TS]

00:05:02 ◼   ► issues and God help me Archie comics but [TS]

00:05:08 ◼   ► i remember back in 86 my nerdy friends [TS]

00:05:11 ◼   ► were all talking about about watchmen [TS]

00:05:14 ◼   ► and how awesome this character mainly [TS]

00:05:15 ◼   ► this character Rorschach was and so I [TS]

00:05:18 ◼   ► figured what the hell there was a comic [TS]

00:05:20 ◼   ► book store just down the street from the [TS]

00:05:21 ◼   ► school so I I i stopped in one day and I [TS]

00:05:25 ◼   ► picked up issues 2 and 3 which were the [TS]

00:05:27 ◼   ► ones that were out at the time so I was [TS]

00:05:29 ◼   ► in fact in on the ground floor or at [TS]

00:05:31 ◼   ► least you know halfway between right the [TS]

00:05:33 ◼   ► mezzanine you were in on the mezzanine [TS]

00:05:35 ◼   ► of watchmen yes message and that's right [TS]

00:05:37 ◼   ► we're stopped in for some bacon martinis [TS]

00:05:40 ◼   ► before proceeding [TS]

00:05:41 ◼   ► yes anyway yeah so I picked up two and [TS]

00:05:44 ◼   ► three and and was enthralled and [TS]

00:05:46 ◼   ► unfortunately one issue one was already [TS]

00:05:49 ◼   ► pretty much sold out everywhere though I [TS]

00:05:51 ◼   ► say everywhere but I really had no idea [TS]

00:05:52 ◼   ► since there was no internet back in [TS]

00:05:55 ◼   ► those heady days and I so really had no [TS]

00:05:57 ◼   ► no means of knowing whether you could [TS]

00:05:59 ◼   ► find it anywhere else but I so I didn't [TS]

00:06:01 ◼   ► get hold of that until several months [TS]

00:06:03 ◼   ► later at which point it ended up costing [TS]

00:06:04 ◼   ► me something like nine box which was [TS]

00:06:06 ◼   ► unheard of at the time but I was pretty [TS]

00:06:10 ◼   ► jazzed to get it and and to this day [TS]

00:06:13 ◼   ► watchman is the the one and only thing [TS]

00:06:15 ◼   ► well technically the only only 12 things [TS]

00:06:18 ◼   ► that i have ever bagged and boarded [TS]

00:06:21 ◼   ► wow that's so you were at your hook to [TS]

00:06:23 ◼   ► that point also got all the next issues [TS]

00:06:25 ◼   ► is it as they came out i did and and I [TS]

00:06:28 ◼   ► suffered along with you waiting for for [TS]

00:06:31 ◼   ► issue 12 at last issue oh man when we [TS]

00:06:34 ◼   ► went to delays before 11 or 10 as well [TS]

00:06:37 ◼   ► no I don't think so I I my recollection [TS]

00:06:39 ◼   ► is that the and I actually at this point [TS]

00:06:41 ◼   ► i live in the town without a comic shop [TS]

00:06:43 ◼   ► so i actually got my comics mail order [TS]

00:06:45 ◼   ► and i got them in a bundle once a month [TS]

00:06:47 ◼   ► and there was a watchman in there every [TS]

00:06:49 ◼   ► month and then that last month with that [TS]

00:06:52 ◼   ► big cliffhanger there was no watchman in [TS]

00:06:54 ◼   ► the Baja there was no internet for me to [TS]

00:06:58 ◼   ► go on and register my disapproval back [TS]

00:07:01 ◼   ► as kids that they used to be you just [TS]

00:07:03 ◼   ► sort of silently raged in your room a [TS]

00:07:06 ◼   ► simpler time you look at you looked [TS]

00:07:08 ◼   ► actually i looked at the receipt in the [TS]

00:07:09 ◼   ► receipt which is handwritten with the [TS]

00:07:11 ◼   ► marks of like what comics you got under [TS]

00:07:12 ◼   ► watchman it said it I believe somebody [TS]

00:07:15 ◼   ► had written in pen delay is taking your [TS]

00:07:20 ◼   ► fist feebly in your room next month that [TS]

00:07:22 ◼   ► the issue is there so it wasn't so bad [TS]

00:07:24 ◼   ► Tony what about you i first read [TS]

00:07:27 ◼   ► watchmen as a young college student [TS]

00:07:30 ◼   ► probably around the year 2000 and this [TS]

00:07:33 ◼   ► was i dread basically kids comics before [TS]

00:07:36 ◼   ► that as you know many years ago so I you [TS]

00:07:38 ◼   ► know I dread like the arching internals [TS]

00:07:40 ◼   ► and the Batman comics based off the [TS]

00:07:42 ◼   ► batman cartoon series and then take it [TS]

00:07:44 ◼   ► kind of a big break from comics in a [TS]

00:07:46 ◼   ► good friend of mine who was basically [TS]

00:07:48 ◼   ► majoring in comic-book curry great for [TS]

00:07:51 ◼   ► comic book curry [TS]

00:07:53 ◼   ► yeah it was an interesting school this [TS]

00:07:55 ◼   ► is one of those make your own majors [TS]

00:07:57 ◼   ► wasn't yes I did when I was not well so [TS]

00:07:59 ◼   ► this friend you know put a copy of the [TS]

00:08:02 ◼   ► the collected trades and in my hand and [TS]

00:08:04 ◼   ► said you know I have to read this and i [TS]

00:08:07 ◼   ► did i read it and basically one sitting [TS]

00:08:09 ◼   ► stayed up all night reading it and that [TS]

00:08:11 ◼   ► basically kind of relaunch my interest [TS]

00:08:14 ◼   ► in comics it which is you know taking [TS]

00:08:16 ◼   ► over a large chunk of my life since then [TS]

00:08:18 ◼   ► at least a large chunk of my possessions [TS]

00:08:20 ◼   ► by weight i'm having just moved my comic [TS]

00:08:23 ◼   ► collection and I went on from that and [TS]

00:08:25 ◼   ► spent you know that was baby the start [TS]

00:08:28 ◼   ► of the summer and i spent basically all [TS]

00:08:29 ◼   ► my disposable income for the rest of the [TS]

00:08:31 ◼   ► summer on an immense number of comics [TS]

00:08:33 ◼   ► that was all kind of kicked off by a by [TS]

00:08:35 ◼   ► reading watchmen being totally sucked [TS]

00:08:37 ◼   ► into it i like the idea of calculating [TS]

00:08:39 ◼   ► your worldly possessions by weight [TS]

00:08:42 ◼   ► well I just moved so what I know I know [TS]

00:08:44 ◼   ► that would be a logical but I just like [TS]

00:08:46 ◼   ► that idea of in general it's like yeah [TS]

00:08:48 ◼   ► you know that thing that I like that's [TS]

00:08:51 ◼   ► it there's too much of it by weight [TS]

00:08:53 ◼   ► I mean I have you know I have a lot of [TS]

00:08:54 ◼   ► board games and a lot of dvds but [TS]

00:08:56 ◼   ► compared to like one box comic books oh [TS]

00:08:58 ◼   ► yeah [TS]

00:08:58 ◼   ► no they're heavy yeah yeah they're heavy [TS]

00:09:01 ◼   ► alright so you you discovered the trade [TS]

00:09:02 ◼   ► paperback [TS]

00:09:03 ◼   ► yeah I was you know I a younger age than [TS]

00:09:07 ◼   ► some people I guess it reintroduced you [TS]

00:09:09 ◼   ► to comics which is interesting because [TS]

00:09:10 ◼   ► for me and this is something about the [TS]

00:09:13 ◼   ► about the the mid to late eighties [TS]

00:09:15 ◼   ► comic-book scene and also and also [TS]

00:09:17 ◼   ► honestly something about being a [TS]

00:09:19 ◼   ► sixteen-year-old when it when reading [TS]

00:09:21 ◼   ► this at 16 years old when your brain is [TS]

00:09:24 ◼   ► developing and you're seeing patterns [TS]

00:09:25 ◼   ► and you you seen complexities that maybe [TS]

00:09:27 ◼   ► you didn't see before that i read [TS]

00:09:29 ◼   ► watchmen and thought well what's the [TS]

00:09:31 ◼   ► point and stopped and actually cancelled [TS]

00:09:34 ◼   ► my comic book subscription for the [TS]

00:09:35 ◼   ► little mail-order people and stopped [TS]

00:09:37 ◼   ► reading comics for like 15 years because [TS]

00:09:39 ◼   ► all of the other comics seemed so [TS]

00:09:41 ◼   ► ridiculously i was already somewhat [TS]

00:09:43 ◼   ► disillusioned by the kind of soap opera [TS]

00:09:45 ◼   ► plots of these ongoing comics and I read [TS]

00:09:47 ◼   ► this thing that tells the complete story [TS]

00:09:49 ◼   ► and has all of these layers and the [TS]

00:09:51 ◼   ► other comics I i just looked at them and [TS]

00:09:52 ◼   ► and and thought but you know I give up [TS]

00:09:56 ◼   ► and I and I literally stopped so it [TS]

00:09:58 ◼   ► started you on the path and it stopped [TS]

00:10:00 ◼   ► me [TS]

00:10:01 ◼   ► watchmen there's a lot of symmetry in it [TS]

00:10:03 ◼   ► you know one person's beginning is [TS]

00:10:04 ◼   ► another person's and that is its [TS]

00:10:06 ◼   ► symmetry amazing so Ben we didn't get to [TS]

00:10:09 ◼   ► you [TS]

00:10:10 ◼   ► what was your entrée into the world of [TS]

00:10:12 ◼   ► watchmen very similar story to yours in [TS]

00:10:16 ◼   ► 1986 bought the monthly and on the [TS]

00:10:19 ◼   ► ground floor in fact somewhere in my [TS]

00:10:21 ◼   ► garage I think her or well somewhere i [TS]

00:10:24 ◼   ► have some promo posters of the series [TS]

00:10:28 ◼   ► invent them that came out before even [TS]

00:10:32 ◼   ► the the issues hit-the hit the stands [TS]

00:10:34 ◼   ► and so yeah every every month [TS]

00:10:38 ◼   ► well II every week because I was so into [TS]

00:10:40 ◼   ► comics at that time and i would [TS]

00:10:43 ◼   ► dutifully make the trip to fantasy [TS]

00:10:46 ◼   ► kingdom on olive avenue in burbank and [TS]

00:10:49 ◼   ► and so I still have you know i still [TS]

00:10:53 ◼   ► have the original series bagged and [TS]

00:10:55 ◼   ► boarded I've got a battered trade [TS]

00:10:59 ◼   ► paperback somewhere and then whenever [TS]

00:11:02 ◼   ► the absolute edition came out my wife [TS]

00:11:05 ◼   ► gave me that for for xmas that [TS]

00:11:07 ◼   ► particular year so it's a good gift [TS]

00:11:09 ◼   ► so yeah that's great gift [TS]

00:11:11 ◼   ► after i got to the dark knight [TS]

00:11:12 ◼   ► absolutely dark night saying the same [TS]

00:11:14 ◼   ► year right and that was a big that was a [TS]

00:11:16 ◼   ► big time for for comics so so when and [TS]

00:11:21 ◼   ► and it's interesting Tony as somebody [TS]

00:11:23 ◼   ► who's younger than the rest of us on [TS]

00:11:25 ◼   ► this panel a little bit little bit um [TS]

00:11:27 ◼   ► Skoosh the just a little just a little [TS]

00:11:29 ◼   ► just a couple more substantial amount [TS]

00:11:31 ◼   ► like a decade snapper he's got damn kids [TS]

00:11:35 ◼   ► the 1i want to talk about being sort of [TS]

00:11:38 ◼   ► disillusioned and why I'm interested in [TS]

00:11:40 ◼   ► that symmetry as you point out I i think [TS]

00:11:43 ◼   ► when some people i was talking to some [TS]

00:11:45 ◼   ► people about watchmen and and I think we [TS]

00:11:47 ◼   ► even had a conversation on our our [TS]

00:11:48 ◼   ► little mailing list about this that from [TS]

00:11:50 ◼   ► the perspective of today I think people [TS]

00:11:53 ◼   ► who haven't been exposed to watch men [TS]

00:11:55 ◼   ► there there's a possibility that they [TS]

00:11:56 ◼   ► look at it and they say I don't get what [TS]

00:11:59 ◼   ► it what it's what the big deal is [TS]

00:12:01 ◼   ► well I've had that conversation with [TS]

00:12:02 ◼   ► people right and i think that I can [TS]

00:12:06 ◼   ► totally see that it's interesting I mean [TS]

00:12:08 ◼   ► I think it's a great work that still [TS]

00:12:11 ◼   ► works really well but if you're [TS]

00:12:13 ◼   ► especially well versed in in comics or [TS]

00:12:15 ◼   ► even if you've just seen a lot of comic [TS]

00:12:17 ◼   ► book themed movies now you this is one [TS]

00:12:20 ◼   ► of those great examples of you know [TS]

00:12:22 ◼   ► after something is so influential that [TS]

00:12:24 ◼   ► everybody everything that's done after [TS]

00:12:26 ◼   ► it is like it it doesn't seem that big [TS]

00:12:28 ◼   ► deal unless you when you look at it [TS]

00:12:30 ◼   ► unless you realize that it was sort of [TS]

00:12:31 ◼   ► the first or one of the first to do what [TS]

00:12:34 ◼   ► it did as as a comic book reader in 1986 [TS]

00:12:37 ◼   ► in 1987 I looked at it and my reaction [TS]

00:12:40 ◼   ► literally was what's the point of all [TS]

00:12:42 ◼   ► these other comic books because they're [TS]

00:12:44 ◼   ► so they just they pale in comparison and [TS]

00:12:47 ◼   ► today's comics you know there's still [TS]

00:12:50 ◼   ► lots of bad comics and lots of good [TS]

00:12:51 ◼   ► comics but one thing that I will say [TS]

00:12:53 ◼   ► because i have started reading comics [TS]

00:12:55 ◼   ► again in the last few years is they they [TS]

00:12:58 ◼   ► don't the things that watchman taught me [TS]

00:13:01 ◼   ► were awful about all the other comics [TS]

00:13:03 ◼   ► that stuff has been corrected in many [TS]

00:13:06 ◼   ► places in many ways because of the [TS]

00:13:09 ◼   ► influence of watchmen so I actually [TS]

00:13:10 ◼   ► think that is over over time and ended [TS]

00:13:13 ◼   ► up having a positive impact but at that [TS]

00:13:15 ◼   ► point it was so good that I felt like [TS]

00:13:17 ◼   ► you know drop the mic and walk away [TS]

00:13:19 ◼   ► it's just like you know butBut comics [TS]

00:13:21 ◼   ► have have a watchman has been [TS]

00:13:23 ◼   ► influential so i can understand how [TS]

00:13:24 ◼   ► people [TS]

00:13:24 ◼   ► young whippersnappers might look at me [TS]

00:13:26 ◼   ► like that yeah it's so it's a dark kind [TS]

00:13:29 ◼   ► of story the toys with the archetypes of [TS]

00:13:31 ◼   ► comic-book superheroes [TS]

00:13:33 ◼   ► doesn't every comic do that cancer is in [TS]

00:13:35 ◼   ► 1986 no absolutely not it didn't happen [TS]

00:13:39 ◼   ► that way I think you're going to read [TS]

00:13:41 ◼   ► watchmen and understand why it was such [TS]

00:13:43 ◼   ► a big deal and this would apply to [TS]

00:13:45 ◼   ► people who didn't read the first time in [TS]

00:13:46 ◼   ► 1986 and who have benefited from [TS]

00:13:48 ◼   ► approach will post watchman world read [TS]

00:13:50 ◼   ► understanding comics first by scott [TS]

00:13:52 ◼   ► mccloud because he has a lot of really [TS]

00:13:54 ◼   ► good and interesting things to say about [TS]

00:13:57 ◼   ► all the decisions that go into how [TS]

00:13:59 ◼   ► comics are composed from page layout to [TS]

00:14:01 ◼   ► panel size to panel layout to [TS]

00:14:03 ◼   ► composition to the way the words and the [TS]

00:14:07 ◼   ► images complement each other and one of [TS]

00:14:09 ◼   ► the things that Eleanor does throughout [TS]

00:14:11 ◼   ► this book alan moore and dave gibbons is [TS]

00:14:12 ◼   ► they play with the idle time let's start [TS]

00:14:17 ◼   ► where they play with the quality of [TS]

00:14:19 ◼   ► nonlinear time that comics can amplify [TS]

00:14:21 ◼   ► by by pointing out there's that whole [TS]

00:14:24 ◼   ► thing where what's-his-face the guy with [TS]

00:14:26 ◼   ► the blue and having massive penis on [TS]

00:14:28 ◼   ► screen on dr. Manhattan is it really the [TS]

00:14:31 ◼   ► Billy crudo him interesting things you [TS]

00:14:37 ◼   ► remember I know this is after 16 ounces [TS]

00:14:40 ◼   ► of wine folks [TS]

00:14:41 ◼   ► um there's the this particular there's [TS]

00:14:44 ◼   ► the signal where he takes her to Mars [TS]

00:14:46 ◼   ► and he's trying to explain to her feeble [TS]

00:14:49 ◼   ► female earth brain how he doesn't [TS]

00:14:52 ◼   ► exactly live at one fixed point I'm [TS]

00:14:54 ◼   ► going forward going back heat he kind of [TS]

00:14:56 ◼   ► fixes his consciousness to whatever [TS]

00:14:57 ◼   ► interests him in and for him time is [TS]

00:14:59 ◼   ► just another dimension and there's one [TS]

00:15:03 ◼   ► point where he actually explicitly says [TS]

00:15:05 ◼   ► there is no future there is no past do [TS]

00:15:06 ◼   ► you see and that panels like right [TS]

00:15:08 ◼   ► middle of the page surrounded by all the [TS]

00:15:09 ◼   ► rest and it's just a really nice [TS]

00:15:11 ◼   ► back-and-forth interplay were where I'm [TS]

00:15:14 ◼   ► Givens and more are reminding you that [TS]

00:15:16 ◼   ► from you're omniscient perspective is [TS]

00:15:18 ◼   ► the reader there is no future there is [TS]

00:15:19 ◼   ► no past because you can see things [TS]

00:15:21 ◼   ► unfolding in both directions on the page [TS]

00:15:23 ◼   ► this end and it amplifies the point [TS]

00:15:26 ◼   ► they're trying to make in the narrative [TS]

00:15:27 ◼   ► and this happens repeatedly through the [TS]

00:15:29 ◼   ► whole the whole text where all the all [TS]

00:15:32 ◼   ► they do is is when they say something [TS]

00:15:34 ◼   ► the images in the composition repeatedly [TS]

00:15:36 ◼   ► under [TS]

00:15:36 ◼   ► in it and you just get this magnificent [TS]

00:15:38 ◼   ► feedback loop and it's something i [TS]

00:15:39 ◼   ► didn't really fully appreciate until [TS]

00:15:41 ◼   ► after i read understanding comics and [TS]

00:15:43 ◼   ► began to understand that everything from [TS]

00:15:45 ◼   ► gutter size to panel size affects the [TS]

00:15:48 ◼   ► sentences that are going captions are or [TS]

00:15:51 ◼   ► coming up people's mouths [TS]

00:15:52 ◼   ► now one of the one of the things about [TS]

00:15:53 ◼   ► watchmen that i love is that it does [TS]

00:15:55 ◼   ► bear scrutiny and you can reread it [TS]

00:15:57 ◼   ► every time I read it I noticed something [TS]

00:16:00 ◼   ► i didn't use before every single time [TS]

00:16:03 ◼   ► and that me just because I'm not [TS]

00:16:04 ◼   ► particularly perceptive as a human being [TS]

00:16:06 ◼   ► but be that as it may I think there's a [TS]

00:16:09 ◼   ► lot there one thing pops out and and one [TS]

00:16:12 ◼   ► of the things is you can appreciate the [TS]

00:16:13 ◼   ► plot and you can appreciate the twist of [TS]

00:16:16 ◼   ► the plot and the interesting take on [TS]

00:16:18 ◼   ► superhero archetypes right but below [TS]

00:16:22 ◼   ► that level there's like there's the [TS]

00:16:23 ◼   ► fearful symmetry issue where all the [TS]

00:16:25 ◼   ► panel's front back back to front are [TS]

00:16:27 ◼   ► actually symmetric and in their layout [TS]

00:16:29 ◼   ► and there's a spread in the center which [TS]

00:16:31 ◼   ► is just I mean super comic-book nerdy [TS]

00:16:33 ◼   ► and yet it's it's amazing and I'm just [TS]

00:16:36 ◼   ► the way that the panel's these grid the [TS]

00:16:37 ◼   ► grid layout that's used the way the way [TS]

00:16:39 ◼   ► that works toward com is doing what [TS]

00:16:43 ◼   ► they're calling the great Alan Moore [TS]

00:16:44 ◼   ► reread and they posted as of this [TS]

00:16:47 ◼   ► recording a couple of of parts of their [TS]

00:16:49 ◼   ► I think they're going to four-part [TS]

00:16:51 ◼   ► watchman as a part of this may they did [TS]

00:16:53 ◼   ► the anatomy lesson in the the whole run [TS]

00:16:54 ◼   ► of swamp thing and they did miracle man [TS]

00:16:57 ◼   ► and they're going through basically the [TS]

00:16:58 ◼   ► can in a valid more every week on [TS]

00:16:59 ◼   ► tor.com and something that struck me [TS]

00:17:02 ◼   ► about what they wrote about watchmen is [TS]

00:17:04 ◼   ► they talked about the density of it and [TS]

00:17:07 ◼   ► they said that they counted in one issue [TS]

00:17:10 ◼   ► a hundred and ninety six panels of [TS]

00:17:13 ◼   ► watchmen and no issue one there are a [TS]

00:17:14 ◼   ► hundred ninety six panels and an average [TS]

00:17:17 ◼   ► issue of a comic book from 2012 70 so so [TS]

00:17:22 ◼   ► the complete the compression the the [TS]

00:17:26 ◼   ► sheer density of the watchman is also [TS]

00:17:29 ◼   ► amazing and kind of mind-blowing [TS]

00:17:32 ◼   ► compared to today [TS]

00:17:33 ◼   ► so you've got all these elements right [TS]

00:17:34 ◼   ► you that you notice when you read it [TS]

00:17:36 ◼   ► that it's not just the characters and [TS]

00:17:37 ◼   ► applaud but everytime there are the [TS]

00:17:39 ◼   ► details that the dave gibbons the leaves [TS]

00:17:41 ◼   ► everywhere would likely behind at the [TS]

00:17:44 ◼   ► very corner of some small panel [TS]

00:17:46 ◼   ► somewhere there is a detail that's [TS]

00:17:48 ◼   ► relevant [TS]

00:17:48 ◼   ► it's a maze [TS]

00:17:49 ◼   ► I i write it and so so just you can go [TS]

00:17:53 ◼   ► as deep down into the nerdiness as as as [TS]

00:17:57 ◼   ► you want and you will find stuff and [TS]

00:17:59 ◼   ► that that's actually one of the things I [TS]

00:18:00 ◼   ► love about it is that this isn't just [TS]

00:18:01 ◼   ► like a story that they told it's al [TS]

00:18:04 ◼   ► whole world that's been invented and [TS]

00:18:06 ◼   ► infusing like every corner of every [TS]

00:18:08 ◼   ► panel right that was one of the things [TS]

00:18:09 ◼   ► that I I most loved about watchmen to [TS]

00:18:11 ◼   ► reading it [TS]

00:18:12 ◼   ► one issue at a time was that each [TS]

00:18:16 ◼   ► 26-page or so issue took like five days [TS]

00:18:20 ◼   ► to really redo for me because I sit [TS]

00:18:23 ◼   ► there and I did examine every single [TS]

00:18:25 ◼   ► panel looking for the recurring motifs [TS]

00:18:26 ◼   ► and we have triangles and the clocks and [TS]

00:18:28 ◼   ► watches and then you know I go back and [TS]

00:18:31 ◼   ► read you know issues when I got issue 4 [TS]

00:18:34 ◼   ► 5 and go back and read one through three [TS]

00:18:36 ◼   ► again yeah pour over the same amount of [TS]

00:18:38 ◼   ► time trying to find new new linkages [TS]

00:18:40 ◼   ► between the motifs in the and you know [TS]

00:18:43 ◼   ► try to find clues to the to the [TS]

00:18:45 ◼   ► overriding story I did that almost every [TS]

00:18:47 ◼   ► time you know you get issue 2 and you [TS]

00:18:49 ◼   ► wanted to you could issue 3 and you [TS]

00:18:50 ◼   ► wanted two and three [TS]

00:18:52 ◼   ► that was the great the great advantage [TS]

00:18:54 ◼   ► yeah i mean it really it highlights [TS]

00:18:56 ◼   ► especially reading up that the trade [TS]

00:18:58 ◼   ► paperback over the weekend it really [TS]

00:19:01 ◼   ► highlights how much you lose by not [TS]

00:19:03 ◼   ► having that one month to sort of stew [TS]

00:19:05 ◼   ► over you know what happened in the last [TS]

00:19:08 ◼   ► issue because it was such sweet agony to [TS]

00:19:12 ◼   ► go over and over the the issue and [TS]

00:19:15 ◼   ► trying to figure out what was going on [TS]

00:19:17 ◼   ► and anticipate what was coming in the [TS]

00:19:19 ◼   ► next month or two months I imagine it's [TS]

00:19:22 ◼   ► like people who read Dickens see [TS]

00:19:24 ◼   ► realized in the newspaper when it came [TS]

00:19:26 ◼   ► out that Dickens you know Dickens novels [TS]

00:19:29 ◼   ► were meant to be cliffhanger dan they [TS]

00:19:31 ◼   ► were really more like what we would [TS]

00:19:32 ◼   ► think of almost like a TV show today [TS]

00:19:34 ◼   ► where they would be an installment and [TS]

00:19:35 ◼   ► then there'd be a cliffhanger and you'd [TS]

00:19:36 ◼   ► have to think about it this is why you [TS]

00:19:38 ◼   ► should never read them as living in a [TS]

00:19:39 ◼   ► little literature class the way that [TS]

00:19:41 ◼   ► they're typically taught you should you [TS]

00:19:42 ◼   ► stretch them out this and and this is I [TS]

00:19:45 ◼   ► mean I always thought about Dickens when [TS]

00:19:46 ◼   ► I was watching lost because i thought [TS]

00:19:48 ◼   ► you know lost heads had its faults but [TS]

00:19:49 ◼   ► but i think that they got beaten up for [TS]

00:19:52 ◼   ► frustrating the the viewer but that was [TS]

00:19:56 ◼   ► what it was all about is there's a [TS]

00:19:57 ◼   ► chapter break and then you have to wait [TS]

00:19:59 ◼   ► a week and in a book or our DVD set on [TS]

00:20:01 ◼   ► you [TS]

00:20:01 ◼   ► we've got all the episodes together is [TS]

00:20:05 ◼   ► you can just go at your own pace and a [TS]

00:20:06 ◼   ► TV show by installment you can't and the [TS]

00:20:09 ◼   ► Dickens novel in the newspaper you [TS]

00:20:11 ◼   ► couldn't and watch men there is [TS]

00:20:13 ◼   ► something to be said that watchman was [TS]

00:20:14 ◼   ► not built as a book it was built as 12 [TS]

00:20:16 ◼   ► discrete elements with time separating [TS]

00:20:19 ◼   ► them so you can actually consider what [TS]

00:20:21 ◼   ► you just saw that said it does hang is a [TS]

00:20:23 ◼   ► book which is more than you can say for [TS]

00:20:25 ◼   ► a lot of trades when a serious is [TS]

00:20:27 ◼   ► collected in narrative arcs i mean this [TS]

00:20:29 ◼   ► this works on two different levels where [TS]

00:20:31 ◼   ► I would have liked to have had the [TS]

00:20:33 ◼   ► chance to read it issue by issue but [TS]

00:20:35 ◼   ► having had a completely different [TS]

00:20:36 ◼   ► experience from you guys and having read [TS]

00:20:38 ◼   ► it in one big gulp and then reread it in [TS]

00:20:41 ◼   ► one big gulp what sounds like you had [TS]

00:20:43 ◼   ► enough time on this trip you could have [TS]

00:20:45 ◼   ► taken a week between each and each [TS]

00:20:46 ◼   ► chapter i had to write my position [TS]

00:20:48 ◼   ► papers for first committee Syria to [TS]

00:20:50 ◼   ► disarm it very seriously but it doesn't [TS]

00:20:56 ◼   ► it does also hang together as a book [TS]

00:20:57 ◼   ► especially with the interstitials [TS]

00:20:59 ◼   ► because the interstitials add some depth [TS]

00:21:00 ◼   ► to the bat and the back matter helps a [TS]

00:21:02 ◼   ► lot [TS]

00:21:03 ◼   ► yeah that yeah the back matter not only [TS]

00:21:05 ◼   ► is it great on its own but it is a break [TS]

00:21:07 ◼   ► between the chapters and a lot of [TS]

00:21:09 ◼   ► comic-book collections [TS]

00:21:11 ◼   ► you know you could you could almost in [TS]

00:21:13 ◼   ► fact some cases I think they do you can [TS]

00:21:14 ◼   ► just drop out the brakes and it's just [TS]

00:21:16 ◼   ► one story and it may even be plotted [TS]

00:21:18 ◼   ► that way watch men there isn't there is [TS]

00:21:20 ◼   ► a time to reflect when you're reading [TS]

00:21:21 ◼   ► through you know these book excerpts and [TS]

00:21:24 ◼   ► files and other crazy stuff that's just [TS]

00:21:27 ◼   ► again filling in the backs this rich [TS]

00:21:30 ◼   ► backstory of this world you wouldn't [TS]

00:21:31 ◼   ► know as much about Adrian Veidt without [TS]

00:21:33 ◼   ► it right even with the back matter you [TS]

00:21:36 ◼   ► couldn't get rid of you can get you [TS]

00:21:37 ◼   ► couldn't eliminate that completely and [TS]

00:21:40 ◼   ► watchmen because you would miss out on [TS]

00:21:41 ◼   ► the on the covers which are just [TS]

00:21:42 ◼   ► fantastic and panels in their own right [TS]

00:21:44 ◼   ► and of course the the gradually dripping [TS]

00:21:47 ◼   ► blood onto the clock on the back which [TS]

00:21:48 ◼   ► is rife with symbolism as well so they [TS]

00:21:51 ◼   ► couldn't really eliminate it altogether [TS]

00:21:52 ◼   ► no matter what right knows and that's I [TS]

00:21:55 ◼   ► mean they did keep those so when you go [TS]

00:21:57 ◼   ► through the trade they've got them but [TS]

00:22:00 ◼   ► it was that was it was a whole package [TS]

00:22:02 ◼   ► it was quite a thing to read it any [TS]

00:22:03 ◼   ► issue by issue format [TS]

00:22:05 ◼   ► no doubt about it so so I'm i think that [TS]

00:22:08 ◼   ► somebody touched on this earlier it is [TS]

00:22:10 ◼   ► interesting that the most popular [TS]

00:22:12 ◼   ► character in this [TS]

00:22:13 ◼   ► and in some ways the most conventional [TS]

00:22:15 ◼   ► and heroic in a in that he's a crime [TS]

00:22:19 ◼   ► fighter and he's actually trying to [TS]

00:22:21 ◼   ► solve the murder that caps off this [TS]

00:22:23 ◼   ► story is a completely insane person is a [TS]

00:22:28 ◼   ► psychopath and he's not only popular but [TS]

00:22:30 ◼   ► right he's actually kind of the one [TS]

00:22:31 ◼   ► who's being a hero and the only reason [TS]

00:22:34 ◼   ► he's still a hero is because he's a [TS]

00:22:35 ◼   ► lunatic which is interesting you know it [TS]

00:22:38 ◼   ► you guys have thoughts about about [TS]

00:22:40 ◼   ► Rorschach other than that he is crazy I [TS]

00:22:43 ◼   ► guess I I don't have any friends that [TS]

00:22:44 ◼   ► would describe him is really cool but [TS]

00:22:47 ◼   ► I'm a traveling the wrong crowd to know [TS]

00:22:48 ◼   ► that you're the right crowd but he's [TS]

00:22:50 ◼   ► popular [TS]

00:22:51 ◼   ► it makes an easy halloween costume not [TS]

00:22:53 ◼   ► that hard to draw either if you can draw [TS]

00:22:54 ◼   ► a hat your comfort [TS]

00:22:56 ◼   ► so this is a commentary on on comic book [TS]

00:22:58 ◼   ► superheroes that on one level that is [TS]

00:23:00 ◼   ► really what this is about is sort of [TS]

00:23:02 ◼   ► like trade try to place a comic book [TS]

00:23:04 ◼   ► superhero ideas in the real world and so [TS]

00:23:06 ◼   ► you've got are you got Rorschach who is [TS]

00:23:08 ◼   ► who is crazy and really didn't become an [TS]

00:23:10 ◼   ► effective superhero until he was [TS]

00:23:12 ◼   ► completely crazy and we see why he is [TS]

00:23:14 ◼   ► that way and you've got the the creation [TS]

00:23:17 ◼   ► of the Minutemen and this attempt to [TS]

00:23:19 ◼   ► create the the crime you basically could [TS]

00:23:21 ◼   ► crimebusters that fails miserably and [TS]

00:23:25 ◼   ► they print and the comedian burns up the [TS]

00:23:27 ◼   ► map and and that the superheroes are [TS]

00:23:29 ◼   ► outlawed and I mean that's one of the [TS]

00:23:30 ◼   ► interesting things about this is that is [TS]

00:23:32 ◼   ► that this is taking the shot genre that [TS]

00:23:34 ◼   ► is meant for you know the superheroes [TS]

00:23:37 ◼   ► are the are the prime Jonna in comics in [TS]

00:23:40 ◼   ► our world although not in the world of [TS]

00:23:41 ◼   ► the watchman which is also funny it's [TS]

00:23:43 ◼   ► pirates but this watchman details them [TS]

00:23:46 ◼   ► is just being completely like failed and [TS]

00:23:48 ◼   ► messed up and just just aren't [TS]

00:23:50 ◼   ► completely wreck of an idea of concept [TS]

00:23:53 ◼   ► that a human being would be a hero [TS]

00:23:55 ◼   ► well didn't more intend Rorschach to be [TS]

00:23:58 ◼   ► didn't intend him to be the hero of the [TS]

00:24:00 ◼   ► piece he intended him to be [TS]

00:24:02 ◼   ► I've read sort of the villain of the [TS]

00:24:05 ◼   ► piece in some ways and it certainly he [TS]

00:24:08 ◼   ► writes Rorschach in a way that you [TS]

00:24:12 ◼   ► wouldn't necessarily be a sip of that [TS]

00:24:15 ◼   ► fear of a particular mindset [TS]

00:24:17 ◼   ► this is a guy who you know in the first [TS]

00:24:19 ◼   ► issue says you know used to you know [TS]

00:24:21 ◼   ► he's he's discourse adan you know on the [TS]

00:24:25 ◼   ► on the blood and the filth [TS]

00:24:27 ◼   ► you know of the running through the [TS]

00:24:28 ◼   ► streets and like like coke and little [TS]

00:24:30 ◼   ► green bottles [TS]

00:24:31 ◼   ► yeah hit it contrasts you know that the [TS]

00:24:36 ◼   ► the men who who run the world in 1985 vs [TS]

00:24:41 ◼   ► good men like his father who he never [TS]

00:24:44 ◼   ► knew right and harry truman who dropped [TS]

00:24:48 ◼   ► the a bomb on Japan right and you know [TS]

00:24:52 ◼   ► this is a guy who you know throughout [TS]

00:24:55 ◼   ► throughout the pieces is you know no [TS]

00:24:58 ◼   ► compromise not even in the face of [TS]

00:25:00 ◼   ► Armageddon right [TS]

00:25:02 ◼   ► not it not a hero but but yet he does be [TS]

00:25:05 ◼   ► heroic things and more I think want you [TS]

00:25:07 ◼   ► to say yeah that's ridiculous [TS]

00:25:09 ◼   ► and yet everybody and why not everybody [TS]

00:25:12 ◼   ► but but you know it's funny that yeah [TS]

00:25:14 ◼   ► everything he was the one he was the one [TS]

00:25:16 ◼   ► character that that a lot of folks [TS]

00:25:19 ◼   ► really latched onto and the comedian who [TS]

00:25:22 ◼   ► was also kind of a bad guy i know i just [TS]

00:25:25 ◼   ► well I do [TS]

00:25:27 ◼   ► yeah he's a bad guy and yet at the same [TS]

00:25:31 ◼   ► time he does get horribly murdered and [TS]

00:25:34 ◼   ► and I I work up a little bit of sympathy [TS]

00:25:36 ◼   ► for him when he's when he's sitting on [TS]

00:25:39 ◼   ► the edge of Moloch's bed drunk and [TS]

00:25:41 ◼   ► crying about how it how it went to his [TS]

00:25:43 ◼   ► Madonna figurine my god even he even he [TS]

00:25:47 ◼   ► is horrified by what he has stumbled [TS]

00:25:50 ◼   ► upon right i mean he it's hard it's hard [TS]

00:25:52 ◼   ► for the comedian not to be able to [TS]

00:25:53 ◼   ► please a little your little sympathetic [TS]

00:25:55 ◼   ► like why even this guy is messed up that [TS]

00:25:57 ◼   ► that's that it must be bad i wanna let [TS]

00:25:59 ◼   ► me post this because I it as I was [TS]

00:26:01 ◼   ► rereading it you know there's some I [TS]

00:26:04 ◼   ► can't remember now fight it was an issue [TS]

00:26:05 ◼   ► that may have been issue 5 or issue for [TS]

00:26:09 ◼   ► were where dr. Manhattan is is recalling [TS]

00:26:13 ◼   ► nose is remembering and and and giving [TS]

00:26:17 ◼   ► his assessment of a comedian and what he [TS]

00:26:20 ◼   ► says is something to the effect of you [TS]

00:26:23 ◼   ► Blake saw you know the horrors of the [TS]

00:26:25 ◼   ► 20th century and he just didn't care and [TS]

00:26:29 ◼   ► he seemed to understand it [TS]

00:26:31 ◼   ► best of all I mean eat what what he's [TS]

00:26:34 ◼   ► what what what this godlike character [TS]

00:26:37 ◼   ► saying about the comedian is you know [TS]

00:26:40 ◼   ► of this motley crew of of characters [TS]

00:26:43 ◼   ► that populate this this universe in [TS]

00:26:45 ◼   ► watchmen maybe the comedian understood [TS]

00:26:49 ◼   ► it [TS]

00:26:50 ◼   ► best of all and there's that line about [TS]

00:26:52 ◼   ► what happened the American Dream and the [TS]

00:26:54 ◼   ► comedian says it came true you're [TS]

00:26:55 ◼   ► looking at it [TS]

00:26:56 ◼   ► no Abby this is this is one of the great [TS]

00:27:00 ◼   ► things about it is that you've got [TS]

00:27:01 ◼   ► Rorschach was not intended to be a hero [TS]

00:27:03 ◼   ► but but the point is that he he does [TS]

00:27:06 ◼   ► some typically heroic things and that [TS]

00:27:09 ◼   ► he's trying to solve the crime and [TS]

00:27:10 ◼   ► anyway she kinda has his act together in [TS]

00:27:13 ◼   ► a way that the other characters clearly [TS]

00:27:15 ◼   ► don't because the other characters or [TS]

00:27:16 ◼   ► you know the kind of losers are sellouts [TS]

00:27:18 ◼   ► and you know he's got that really [TS]

00:27:20 ◼   ► strongly that he's introduced with the [TS]

00:27:21 ◼   ► you know there's like four pages in a [TS]

00:27:23 ◼   ► row with him kind of investigating the [TS]

00:27:25 ◼   ► comedian's parties got a grappling hook [TS]

00:27:28 ◼   ► he's got a grappling hook and his hips [TS]

00:27:29 ◼   ► too and i mean it's it's a kind of the [TS]

00:27:31 ◼   ► introduction there's no dialogue 44 [TS]

00:27:32 ◼   ► pages it's not him like narrating his [TS]

00:27:35 ◼   ► his exploration we just see him kind of [TS]

00:27:36 ◼   ► you know moving through the apartment [TS]

00:27:39 ◼   ► searching places although it is a hermit [TS]

00:27:41 ◼   ► least once ye grunts and there's some [TS]

00:27:43 ◼   ► other kind of you know but he's not like [TS]

00:27:45 ◼   ► you know he's not required to narrate [TS]

00:27:47 ◼   ► what he's doing to the audience or [TS]

00:27:49 ◼   ► anything and then you know the other [TS]

00:27:51 ◼   ► characters are kind of introduces you [TS]

00:27:53 ◼   ► know i'll be looser or other kind of you [TS]

00:27:56 ◼   ► know misfits um so even if he is [TS]

00:27:58 ◼   ► basically crazy and um at least kinda [TS]

00:28:01 ◼   ► seems to have at least his professional [TS]

00:28:03 ◼   ► act more together than they do I guess [TS]

00:28:05 ◼   ► well and he has a lot going for him in [TS]

00:28:08 ◼   ► the end I think in that he's the only [TS]

00:28:10 ◼   ► one that's that's that's willing not to [TS]

00:28:13 ◼   ► put up with the madness that fight has [TS]

00:28:16 ◼   ► exactly i mean he's easy only one [TS]

00:28:18 ◼   ► willing to walk away from Omelas [TS]

00:28:20 ◼   ► innocence or at least drag the rest of [TS]

00:28:22 ◼   ► the world away from ominous with him so [TS]

00:28:24 ◼   ► been here here's what that line as Blake [TS]

00:28:28 ◼   ► is interesting i've never met someone [TS]

00:28:29 ◼   ► I've never met anyone so deliberately [TS]

00:28:31 ◼   ► amoral he suits the climate here in [TS]

00:28:33 ◼   ► Vietnam the madness the pointless [TS]

00:28:34 ◼   ► butchery as I come to understand Vietnam [TS]

00:28:36 ◼   ► and what it implies about the human [TS]

00:28:38 ◼   ► condition [TS]

00:28:39 ◼   ► I also realize that humans will will [TS]

00:28:41 ◼   ► permit themselves such an understanding [TS]

00:28:43 ◼   ► Blake's different he understands [TS]

00:28:45 ◼   ► perfectly and he doesn't care [TS]

00:28:47 ◼   ► right well that goes into Morse whole [TS]

00:28:49 ◼   ► thesis that anybody who gets into this [TS]

00:28:51 ◼   ► business is going to be able cracked or [TS]

00:28:54 ◼   ► get up two spaces effectively well you [TS]

00:28:56 ◼   ► see it in the original incarnation where [TS]

00:29:00 ◼   ► you had a hooded justice who gets killed [TS]

00:29:03 ◼   ► after piece of rough trade and the [TS]

00:29:06 ◼   ► original the original silk spectre is [TS]

00:29:08 ◼   ► certainly not a model of well-adjusted [TS]

00:29:09 ◼   ► anything right well it and then there's [TS]

00:29:11 ◼   ► the the more you know but personal you [TS]

00:29:15 ◼   ► no matter of dan dreiberg has has hung [TS]

00:29:17 ◼   ► up his costume and he you know he's and [TS]

00:29:19 ◼   ► he's the Batman analog right and and he [TS]

00:29:21 ◼   ► he's got the amazing garage full of [TS]

00:29:23 ◼   ► stuff that's gathering dust and he's [TS]

00:29:25 ◼   ► he's imp and he's impotent until he puts [TS]

00:29:28 ◼   ► on the costume and fights crime at which [TS]

00:29:29 ◼   ► point his funeral [TS]

00:29:31 ◼   ► what I think is interesting that both [TS]

00:29:32 ◼   ► night al1 into is not how one gets [TS]

00:29:34 ◼   ► brutally murdered [TS]

00:29:36 ◼   ► it's just he writes this map he writes [TS]

00:29:38 ◼   ► this memoir you know that we see under [TS]

00:29:40 ◼   ► the hood and it it opens with it opens [TS]

00:29:43 ◼   ► with a supposed to open the tragic [TS]

00:29:45 ◼   ► anecdote he has to borrow from one that [TS]

00:29:47 ◼   ► really is tragic and humiliating for [TS]

00:29:48 ◼   ► somebody else and this is a guy who had [TS]

00:29:50 ◼   ► kind of a middling to ok he happened to [TS]

00:29:52 ◼   ► right he happened to right away if you [TS]

00:29:54 ◼   ► would like that he was like the [TS]

00:29:55 ◼   ► yahoo.com of the superhero and you know [TS]

00:29:58 ◼   ► he gets out just in time he has a decent [TS]

00:30:01 ◼   ► retirement is beaten to death and drugs [TS]

00:30:03 ◼   ► all things considered you know and and [TS]

00:30:07 ◼   ► driver picks it up and he's obviously [TS]

00:30:09 ◼   ► just a rich kid who's looking for some [TS]

00:30:10 ◼   ► kind of purpose or meaning and that the [TS]

00:30:14 ◼   ► whole character both incarnation seem to [TS]

00:30:16 ◼   ► be seeking for something that never [TS]

00:30:17 ◼   ► gonna quit attained and they tell [TS]

00:30:19 ◼   ► themselves a lot of self justify [TS]

00:30:21 ◼   ► self-justifying delusions to to keep [TS]

00:30:24 ◼   ► putting on the hood or to keep making a [TS]

00:30:25 ◼   ► little their little love their little [TS]

00:30:27 ◼   ► ships or or to direct a little memoir [TS]

00:30:29 ◼   ► that they paid really dance around the [TS]

00:30:31 ◼   ► issue of why they did it it's like you [TS]

00:30:33 ◼   ► said that there's there's the whole [TS]

00:30:34 ◼   ► impotence issue and I think you're [TS]

00:30:37 ◼   ► supposed or I came away from it I've [TS]

00:30:38 ◼   ► always going from it just being coupled [TS]

00:30:40 ◼   ► disgusted and I'm sorry for those kids [TS]

00:30:42 ◼   ► from for both incarnations of 9l you [TS]

00:30:45 ◼   ► know there's almost nothing to recommend [TS]

00:30:46 ◼   ► them as people which is ironic because [TS]

00:30:48 ◼   ► he ends up with the girl [TS]

00:30:50 ◼   ► well-well dreiberg is trying writing he [TS]

00:30:53 ◼   ► hang he hangs it up because it's been [TS]

00:30:55 ◼   ► outlawed and and you can see that he had [TS]

00:30:57 ◼   ► he really did have nothing else in his [TS]

00:30:59 ◼   ► life but now right this is filling up [TS]

00:31:02 ◼   ► from fulfilling and he's filling a hole [TS]

00:31:03 ◼   ► by [TS]

00:31:04 ◼   ► by having this this superhero life and [TS]

00:31:07 ◼   ► so he jumps back in it at the end and [TS]

00:31:10 ◼   ► yes he does get the girl so nice [TS]

00:31:13 ◼   ► it'sit's see strikes me the marriage of [TS]

00:31:15 ◼   ► convenience who actually the what [TS]

00:31:18 ◼   ► Hollis Mason is he not the only [TS]

00:31:20 ◼   ► character in either the Minutemen or the [TS]

00:31:23 ◼   ► you know what would have been the [TS]

00:31:25 ◼   ► crimebusters who got into it exclusively [TS]

00:31:27 ◼   ► because he wanted to fight crime and not [TS]

00:31:29 ◼   ► because he had some perversity or yeah [TS]

00:31:33 ◼   ► he didn't have any kids [TS]

00:31:34 ◼   ► if that's what you're asking he didn't [TS]

00:31:36 ◼   ► have any kinks so far as we know [TS]

00:31:38 ◼   ► yeah so far as we know yeah everybody's [TS]

00:31:42 ◼   ► ruffling through their copies its jack [TS]

00:31:45 ◼   ► nice and i think i think about and I [TS]

00:31:47 ◼   ► think the fact that he I think the fact [TS]

00:31:50 ◼   ► that his life ends the way it does is [TS]

00:31:52 ◼   ► supposed to tell you that that you don't [TS]

00:31:53 ◼   ► even that this is not a business forum [TS]

00:31:55 ◼   ► for normal well-adjusted people at all [TS]

00:31:58 ◼   ► yeah what good it does you so so do what [TS]

00:32:06 ◼   ► a maybe talk about dr. Manhattan a [TS]

00:32:09 ◼   ► little bit interesting interesting [TS]

00:32:11 ◼   ► character he has he's naked [TS]

00:32:13 ◼   ► we get to see his little his a little [TS]

00:32:15 ◼   ► depends on the size sizes variable with [TS]

00:32:17 ◼   ► dr. Manhattan his penis is blue penis in [TS]

00:32:20 ◼   ► my defense that my first impression was [TS]

00:32:22 ◼   ► on a movie screen so there's there's [TS]

00:32:24 ◼   ► there's magnifying effects well sure we [TS]

00:32:27 ◼   ► can talk about the weather that was CGI [TS]

00:32:29 ◼   ► or not for poor old Billy Crudup you [TS]

00:32:33 ◼   ► know it's interesting i was actually [TS]

00:32:34 ◼   ► reading up on on some of the wikipedia [TS]

00:32:37 ◼   ► stuff and found it interesting that [TS]

00:32:40 ◼   ► Givens was concerned about actually [TS]

00:32:44 ◼   ► showing the full-frontal with the penis [TS]

00:32:45 ◼   ► because you know it well I he [TS]

00:32:50 ◼   ► deliberately makes it small to make it [TS]

00:32:52 ◼   ► seem like more classical sculpture that [TS]

00:32:55 ◼   ► is not the approach they took in the [TS]

00:32:57 ◼   ► movies [TS]

00:32:57 ◼   ► he's worried about that but there are [TS]

00:32:59 ◼   ► boobs like every other frame [TS]

00:33:03 ◼   ► interesting double standard from the [TS]

00:33:05 ◼   ► eighties yeah from the eighties have [TS]

00:33:07 ◼   ► he's honest reason for ya [TS]

00:33:10 ◼   ► forever yeah so he is he is a [TS]

00:33:13 ◼   ► essentially omnipotent he other than if [TS]

00:33:17 ◼   ► there's a pulse of tachyons in which [TS]

00:33:19 ◼   ► case he gets confused but you know he's [TS]

00:33:21 ◼   ► seeing time in a different way from the [TS]

00:33:22 ◼   ► rest of us [TS]

00:33:23 ◼   ► he's the only character in this in the [TS]

00:33:25 ◼   ► story with actual superpowers to which [TS]

00:33:28 ◼   ► is interesting and their horrifying they [TS]

00:33:31 ◼   ► are horrifying and when he changes he [TS]

00:33:33 ◼   ► changes i mean the balance of power in [TS]

00:33:35 ◼   ► the world it really is i mean there's [TS]

00:33:36 ◼   ► not lying about the Superman is real and [TS]

00:33:38 ◼   ► he's American i mean this is this is a [TS]

00:33:40 ◼   ► take on on on Superman in a way which is [TS]

00:33:44 ◼   ► if there was a guy who appeared who have [TS]

00:33:46 ◼   ► these incredible powers and he was an [TS]

00:33:48 ◼   ► American would that not change the [TS]

00:33:50 ◼   ► balance of power and more takes it all [TS]

00:33:52 ◼   ► the ways is then we sent them to Vietnam [TS]

00:33:54 ◼   ► you know we we didn't we didn't say oh [TS]

00:33:56 ◼   ► well this is he's gonna work for the [TS]

00:33:58 ◼   ► good of humanity was like no he's gonna [TS]

00:34:00 ◼   ► do what we wanted to do so you know it I [TS]

00:34:03 ◼   ► I always always thought that was a [TS]

00:34:05 ◼   ► really strange and interesting character [TS]

00:34:08 ◼   ► to have walking among all the other [TS]

00:34:10 ◼   ► characters in this doctor because he is [TS]

00:34:12 ◼   ► he is if of for the most part almost a [TS]

00:34:16 ◼   ► cipher and the back material reveals [TS]

00:34:18 ◼   ► that the original quote was actually God [TS]

00:34:20 ◼   ► exists and he is American which which [TS]

00:34:23 ◼   ► makes it even more horrifying i like how [TS]

00:34:25 ◼   ► I like having read them out basically i [TS]

00:34:27 ◼   ► think i think there's no other way could [TS]

00:34:28 ◼   ► have ended them with him saying screen [TS]

00:34:30 ◼   ► manatee i'm off to something that's [TS]

00:34:31 ◼   ► worth my time in my talents right but [TS]

00:34:33 ◼   ► he's got the part that perspective at [TS]

00:34:35 ◼   ► the end which is which is like the line [TS]

00:34:36 ◼   ► of the the line of the book right [TS]

00:34:38 ◼   ► nothing ever ends [TS]

00:34:39 ◼   ► Adrian which is it's so true we've we've [TS]

00:34:42 ◼   ► taken this entire plot and then it's so [TS]

00:34:45 ◼   ► obvious and of course it's actually he's [TS]

00:34:47 ◼   ► Ozymandias right and the whole idea of [TS]

00:34:51 ◼   ► air is the shelley problem about the [TS]

00:34:52 ◼   ► crumble the empire that used to be there [TS]

00:34:54 ◼   ► and he's taking this is this incredible [TS]

00:34:57 ◼   ► monument to his greatness and and dr. [TS]

00:35:00 ◼   ► Manhattan the guy with the eternal [TS]

00:35:01 ◼   ► perspective lays down the lays down a [TS]

00:35:03 ◼   ► few that this is not the you know it's [TS]

00:35:05 ◼   ► not the end of the story because there [TS]

00:35:07 ◼   ► aren't such things as ends of stories [TS]

00:35:10 ◼   ► that just doesn't happen but a couple [TS]

00:35:14 ◼   ► is a couple issues earlier the sweetest [TS]

00:35:17 ◼   ► thing in here proving that Alan Moore is [TS]

00:35:18 ◼   ► actually a soft and hard that one of my [TS]

00:35:20 ◼   ► favorite things about dr. Manhattan is [TS]

00:35:22 ◼   ► the thing that is the thing that [TS]

00:35:24 ◼   ► convinces him that he can intervene [TS]

00:35:28 ◼   ► which is this sort of the simple story [TS]

00:35:31 ◼   ► that is the story of every human life [TS]

00:35:33 ◼   ► which is that you know who could have [TS]

00:35:35 ◼   ► predicted that what would have happened [TS]

00:35:37 ◼   ► you know and it which was with blake and [TS]

00:35:39 ◼   ► laurie smith mother to create him and to [TS]

00:35:41 ◼   ► create her and the the this video sperm [TS]

00:35:45 ◼   ► the one sperm to fertilize the one egg [TS]

00:35:47 ◼   ► and this chain that goes back through [TS]

00:35:48 ◼   ► every parent throughout human history [TS]

00:35:50 ◼   ► and you know Alan Moore as as cynical [TS]

00:35:55 ◼   ► guys he can often be is really saying [TS]

00:35:58 ◼   ► there that you know every human being is [TS]

00:36:00 ◼   ► a miracle every human being is kind of [TS]

00:36:02 ◼   ► an amazing through thermodynamic it's a [TS]

00:36:05 ◼   ► miracle that that it that one slight [TS]

00:36:08 ◼   ► change and you would not exist it it's [TS]

00:36:11 ◼   ► you know the and I i think that's a kind [TS]

00:36:15 ◼   ► of an interesting almost happy thing to [TS]

00:36:18 ◼   ► find in the midst of the bleakness of [TS]

00:36:19 ◼   ► this of this story although it struck me [TS]

00:36:22 ◼   ► reading at this time that it's it seems [TS]

00:36:24 ◼   ► a little odd that he hadn't picked up on [TS]

00:36:26 ◼   ► that before [TS]

00:36:27 ◼   ► intel Lori told her her story about her [TS]

00:36:29 ◼   ► own lineage he's focused on his blue [TS]

00:36:32 ◼   ► business his things [TS]

00:36:33 ◼   ► le he spends all his time on Mars [TS]

00:36:35 ◼   ► focused on the chaotic landscape as he's [TS]

00:36:38 ◼   ► you know shaping his glass castle its it [TS]

00:36:41 ◼   ► just seems a bit odd that having spent [TS]

00:36:43 ◼   ► as much time as he did on earth and in [TS]

00:36:45 ◼   ► the presence of of lori that he had not [TS]

00:36:47 ◼   ► got that connection before until you [TS]

00:36:50 ◼   ► know at the crucial moment in chapter 7 [TS]

00:36:53 ◼   ► or whatever it is they're tachyons he [TS]

00:36:55 ◼   ► was distracted or you could I mean [TS]

00:36:56 ◼   ► perhaps it's I mean the kind of the art [TS]

00:36:58 ◼   ► that dr. Manhattan coaster is that he [TS]

00:37:00 ◼   ► kind of loses more and more touch with [TS]

00:37:02 ◼   ► humanity and the understanding for even [TS]

00:37:04 ◼   ► the people around him until perhaps then [TS]

00:37:07 ◼   ► he reaches this point where he sees them [TS]

00:37:08 ◼   ► as you know not just these ants but [TS]

00:37:11 ◼   ► these kind of miraculous combinations of [TS]

00:37:14 ◼   ► fascinating against PS fascinating and [TS]

00:37:18 ◼   ► that are exactly you know the way they [TS]

00:37:20 ◼   ► are and lower is the only one he's got [TS]

00:37:21 ◼   ► any any connection with at all left at [TS]

00:37:24 ◼   ► that point and so but heard the truth [TS]

00:37:26 ◼   ► the facts of her birth [TS]

00:37:27 ◼   ► so the thing that that that you know [TS]

00:37:30 ◼   ► finally make him snap out of it a little [TS]

00:37:31 ◼   ► bit at least realized that that even if [TS]

00:37:34 ◼   ► he's way above humans that humans do [TS]

00:37:37 ◼   ► have some sort of relevance let me throw [TS]

00:37:39 ◼   ► this at you [TS]

00:37:40 ◼   ► this is this is from Grant Morrison's [TS]

00:37:44 ◼   ► super gods and he has a longest section [TS]

00:37:48 ◼   ► on watchman which he says the god of [TS]

00:37:51 ◼   ► watchmen was far from shy he liked to [TS]

00:37:53 ◼   ► muscle his way onto every panel every [TS]

00:37:55 ◼   ► line he strutted into view with his blue [TS]

00:37:58 ◼   ► in Oregon proud display but everywhere [TS]

00:38:04 ◼   ► you look the watchmaker was on hand to [TS]

00:38:06 ◼   ► present his glittering structure for our [TS]

00:38:08 ◼   ► approval and aww just as Manhattan [TS]

00:38:10 ◼   ► directed his own flawless crystal logic [TS]

00:38:13 ◼   ► machine to lay out to lay out the law to [TS]

00:38:16 ◼   ► a distraught Lori in this Manning Lee [TS]

00:38:18 ◼   ► intricate engine of story [TS]

00:38:20 ◼   ► the god of watchmen could not hide and [TS]

00:38:22 ◼   ► beg for our attention at every page turn [TS]

00:38:25 ◼   ► he was a jealous maker who refused to [TS]

00:38:27 ◼   ► allow any of his creations to be smarter [TS]

00:38:29 ◼   ► than he was so the passive his genius [TS]

00:38:32 ◼   ► became a genocide alidium the confident [TS]

00:38:35 ◼   ► trained psychiatrist was reduced to a [TS]

00:38:37 ◼   ► gibbering wreck by their darkness and [TS]

00:38:38 ◼   ► the sole of his patient the detective [TS]

00:38:40 ◼   ► stumbled through the plot to their doom [TS]

00:38:42 ◼   ► and even the more or less divine [TS]

00:38:45 ◼   ► superhuman was shown to be emotionally [TS]

00:38:47 ◼   ► retarded and ineffectual it was as if [TS]

00:38:49 ◼   ► God had little more than contempt for [TS]

00:38:51 ◼   ► his creations and gave them no [TS]

00:38:53 ◼   ► opportunity to transcend the limits he'd [TS]

00:38:56 ◼   ► set for them at first you kinda might [TS]

00:38:58 ◼   ► think that he was talking about in [TS]

00:39:00 ◼   ► Manhattan there but he's actually [TS]

00:39:01 ◼   ► talking about more [TS]

00:39:03 ◼   ► yeah yeah yeah that that's that's really [TS]

00:39:07 ◼   ► interesting [TS]

00:39:07 ◼   ► I mean it is this is this is the this is [TS]

00:39:10 ◼   ► the story right is that everybody is is [TS]

00:39:13 ◼   ► completely ineffectual and you know I I [TS]

00:39:18 ◼   ► guess I it's worth asking the question [TS]

00:39:20 ◼   ► then which is how you know how do you [TS]

00:39:21 ◼   ► guys read as great and intricate and [TS]

00:39:24 ◼   ► interesting as this work is you know [TS]

00:39:26 ◼   ► what is it what is its meaning to you [TS]

00:39:29 ◼   ► does it it [TS]

00:39:30 ◼   ► how does it you know what meaning does [TS]

00:39:33 ◼   ► it have for you beyond just being [TS]

00:39:34 ◼   ► interesting and and carefully [TS]

00:39:38 ◼   ► constructed and having an inn [TS]

00:39:40 ◼   ► packed on the John read that it's in I [TS]

00:39:43 ◼   ► thought the lesson of Washington's that [TS]

00:39:44 ◼   ► nothing matters huh [TS]

00:39:46 ◼   ► I kid that's that's what I took that [TS]

00:39:49 ◼   ► nothing in the adolescent I took was [TS]

00:39:51 ◼   ► that comic books aren't any good except [TS]

00:39:54 ◼   ► for blood yet but I should just give up [TS]

00:39:56 ◼   ► give up everyone give up a lesson is [TS]

00:39:59 ◼   ► that common tell really great stories [TS]

00:40:01 ◼   ► well more didn't really set out to to [TS]

00:40:04 ◼   ► produce a meeting as far as as far as [TS]

00:40:06 ◼   ► what I've read [TS]

00:40:08 ◼   ► hehe wanted to you know take the comic [TS]

00:40:11 ◼   ► medium somewhere new wine and maybe blow [TS]

00:40:13 ◼   ► up superhero no superhero trappings [TS]

00:40:15 ◼   ► along the way right tell what if story [TS]

00:40:18 ◼   ► the germ of his idea was he thought it [TS]

00:40:20 ◼   ► would be interesting to see what would [TS]

00:40:21 ◼   ► happen if he took these existing [TS]

00:40:23 ◼   ► charlton characters and and and me and [TS]

00:40:26 ◼   ► threw them into a realistic setting you [TS]

00:40:28 ◼   ► know any meaning that arose out of that [TS]

00:40:30 ◼   ► it i think is almost entirely [TS]

00:40:31 ◼   ► coincidental [TS]

00:40:33 ◼   ► nothing ever ends Steve well there is [TS]

00:40:35 ◼   ► that maybe that's our lesson or maybe [TS]

00:40:38 ◼   ► the lesson is that there's nothing you [TS]

00:40:39 ◼   ► want to [TS]

00:40:39 ◼   ► well it isn't all that much I you know [TS]

00:40:42 ◼   ► and this is kinda blue and this is kind [TS]

00:40:44 ◼   ► of why for me the work you know as as [TS]

00:40:50 ◼   ► much as it meant to me it meant more to [TS]

00:40:51 ◼   ► me when I was 16 and maybe when I was in [TS]

00:40:55 ◼   ► my twenties and it does now that I'm 40 [TS]

00:40:57 ◼   ► and it's well it's one of those books [TS]

00:41:01 ◼   ► that it you know it's it's you read it [TS]

00:41:03 ◼   ► and that you know you'll never forget [TS]

00:41:05 ◼   ► the first time you read a story like [TS]

00:41:08 ◼   ► this [TS]

00:41:08 ◼   ► yeah re i remember vividly you know [TS]

00:41:13 ◼   ► going over that the first just the first [TS]

00:41:15 ◼   ► few issues i was just completely [TS]

00:41:17 ◼   ► engrossed and captivated and I and and [TS]

00:41:20 ◼   ► you know it it just blows your mind [TS]

00:41:23 ◼   ► right i mean you're cute and you know [TS]

00:41:25 ◼   ► your your teenager and this is this is [TS]

00:41:27 ◼   ► exciting and new [TS]

00:41:29 ◼   ► but over time I'm you have i read it i [TS]

00:41:33 ◼   ► read it again carefully right before the [TS]

00:41:35 ◼   ► movie came out and the the one the the [TS]

00:41:40 ◼   ► great impression I was left with was [TS]

00:41:42 ◼   ► this is really kind of a relic of of the [TS]

00:41:48 ◼   ► eighties and allow you know a lot of [TS]

00:41:51 ◼   ► this stuff is kinda hokey [TS]

00:41:53 ◼   ► and maybe not so as smart as I remember [TS]

00:41:58 ◼   ► it being and I think that just comes [TS]

00:42:01 ◼   ► with with time and experience in reading [TS]

00:42:04 ◼   ► and and your perspective on things [TS]

00:42:05 ◼   ► changes but so for me I I'm a kind of [TS]

00:42:10 ◼   ► ambivalent about the book now I I you [TS]

00:42:13 ◼   ► know 20 years ago I I was much more [TS]

00:42:16 ◼   ► passionate about it and I and I i I'll i [TS]

00:42:20 ◼   ► loved it and now I think my order has [TS]

00:42:23 ◼   ► has cooled greatly then would you think [TS]

00:42:27 ◼   ► what you said this book has a real cold [TS]

00:42:29 ◼   ► war sensibility to it [TS]

00:42:30 ◼   ► oh yeah yeah I'm going to think that [TS]

00:42:32 ◼   ► stands out for me when I do the reading [TS]

00:42:34 ◼   ► is just this real polarity of this real [TS]

00:42:36 ◼   ► sense that both sides will always be as [TS]

00:42:39 ◼   ► they are and it completely dismisses the [TS]

00:42:41 ◼   ► idea that something could happen as did [TS]

00:42:44 ◼   ► happen in real life in 1989 going into [TS]

00:42:47 ◼   ► the nineties something other than [TS]

00:42:49 ◼   ► Armageddon right i mean yeah yeah yeah [TS]

00:42:52 ◼   ► and and so there there's an there's a [TS]

00:42:54 ◼   ► naivete about the book and so when you [TS]

00:42:58 ◼   ► know to read it now is to save it's not [TS]

00:43:01 ◼   ► quite as sophisticated as as I once [TS]

00:43:04 ◼   ► thought and and so you know Ben when you [TS]

00:43:06 ◼   ► hit your forties the order is the first [TS]

00:43:08 ◼   ► thing to brother but it went like anyway [TS]

00:43:12 ◼   ► I don't I I think I don't know about [TS]

00:43:16 ◼   ► sophistication I guess what I would say [TS]

00:43:17 ◼   ► is that is that part of the appeal of it [TS]

00:43:19 ◼   ► is that it is that this is a story is an [TS]

00:43:23 ◼   ► act of rebellion [TS]

00:43:24 ◼   ► I think it is it is all and if you're [TS]

00:43:28 ◼   ► reading it when you're 16 [TS]

00:43:29 ◼   ► man that is the perfect time for it [TS]

00:43:31 ◼   ► because it's all those comic books that [TS]

00:43:33 ◼   ► you loved as a kid and that you're now [TS]

00:43:35 ◼   ► getting in the mail once a month right [TS]

00:43:37 ◼   ► I mean for me that was exactly what it [TS]

00:43:38 ◼   ► was they are they they are day they [TS]

00:43:42 ◼   ► don't bear any resemblance to reality [TS]

00:43:44 ◼   ► they don't work logically that's not how [TS]

00:43:47 ◼   ► it would be [TS]

00:43:48 ◼   ► we're going to use this medium to [TS]

00:43:51 ◼   ► destroy all of the you know the the the [TS]

00:43:54 ◼   ► conventions that you've that they've had [TS]

00:43:57 ◼   ► that all these beliefs that you've had [TS]

00:43:59 ◼   ► about it and as as an act of rebellion [TS]

00:44:02 ◼   ► is kind of a bomb placed in this in the [TS]

00:44:04 ◼   ► genre that i've been reading since I was [TS]

00:44:05 ◼   ► five years old [TS]

00:44:06 ◼   ► it was incredibly effective effect is [TS]

00:44:09 ◼   ► not only was that a bomb from 1987 but [TS]

00:44:13 ◼   ► uh it changed the medium and the world [TS]

00:44:17 ◼   ► has moved on so what were left with is [TS]

00:44:20 ◼   ► you know that it was influential and [TS]

00:44:23 ◼   ► that it's got a kind of a clever plot [TS]

00:44:25 ◼   ► although even there the time sequence [TS]

00:44:27 ◼   ► stuff has been beaten to death by modern [TS]

00:44:29 ◼   ► narrative techniques right i mean it's [TS]

00:44:31 ◼   ► quentin tarantino did you know made pulp [TS]

00:44:35 ◼   ► fiction with with slices of of time out [TS]

00:44:37 ◼   ► of order and every TV show and movie [TS]

00:44:40 ◼   ► since then has has done that and so even [TS]

00:44:43 ◼   ► the doctor manhattan stuff where it's so [TS]

00:44:45 ◼   ► cool that he used time non-linearly it's [TS]

00:44:47 ◼   ► like yeah it everybody we got it we got [TS]

00:44:51 ◼   ► it right so it makes it very difficult [TS]

00:44:53 ◼   ► to look at that at and so in some ways [TS]

00:44:56 ◼   ► that the stuff that I've I discover when [TS]

00:44:58 ◼   ► I reread it is not so much about the [TS]

00:45:00 ◼   ► message or the meaning or the the plot [TS]

00:45:02 ◼   ► even as much as the detail in the world [TS]

00:45:07 ◼   ► and for that I I we've been talking [TS]

00:45:09 ◼   ► about alan moore a whole lot but for [TS]

00:45:11 ◼   ► that I i give a whole lot of credit to [TS]

00:45:13 ◼   ► Dave Gibbons whoo-hoo the detail in the [TS]

00:45:16 ◼   ► work especially if you look at the [TS]

00:45:17 ◼   ► absolute collection is really kind of [TS]

00:45:21 ◼   ► amazing and viewed on purely on that [TS]

00:45:23 ◼   ► level i think this is a this is an [TS]

00:45:25 ◼   ► amazing work i think more himself even [TS]

00:45:28 ◼   ► said that he was discovering things you [TS]

00:45:31 ◼   ► know that's later that he didn't he had [TS]

00:45:33 ◼   ► no idea where their yeah yeah so i need [TS]

00:45:35 ◼   ► to give it even if you some of that [TS]

00:45:37 ◼   ► stuff has lost its power over time and [TS]

00:45:39 ◼   ► it is much more something in our [TS]

00:45:43 ◼   ► relative of the eighties in some ways [TS]

00:45:45 ◼   ► even though it was incredibly [TS]

00:45:46 ◼   ► influential still some of that some of [TS]

00:45:48 ◼   ► that work that the Givens did is amazing [TS]

00:45:51 ◼   ► and the absolute also we should say John [TS]

00:45:53 ◼   ► Higgins the original colorist recolored [TS]

00:45:55 ◼   ► it because the color technology in the [TS]

00:45:57 ◼   ► eighties will apparently really terrible [TS]

00:46:00 ◼   ► there's actually a great story about [TS]

00:46:02 ◼   ► about that i think i think maybe in the [TS]

00:46:04 ◼   ► absolute edition about how he had a [TS]

00:46:06 ◼   ► recolor it digitally and it's that's the [TS]

00:46:08 ◼   ► version that's used on the on the [TS]

00:46:11 ◼   ► regular trade editions now is also using [TS]

00:46:14 ◼   ► that special recolored and it they look [TS]

00:46:16 ◼   ► much better so the shoutout to the [TS]

00:46:18 ◼   ► colors but also just to get in [TS]

00:46:20 ◼   ► the artist because that there's some [TS]

00:46:22 ◼   ► amazing work in in the details of every [TS]

00:46:25 ◼   ► panel of this of this book actually I'm [TS]

00:46:28 ◼   ► really really glad you brought up John [TS]

00:46:29 ◼   ► Higgins because i've i've always felt it [TS]

00:46:31 ◼   ► was a bit of a shame that he didn't get [TS]

00:46:33 ◼   ► an equal credit with that with Givens [TS]

00:46:35 ◼   ► and more because his color work is just [TS]

00:46:38 ◼   ► it's a major major part of what makes [TS]

00:46:40 ◼   ► watchman great from one of the nice [TS]

00:46:42 ◼   ► things about the recolor that they did [TS]

00:46:43 ◼   ► for the absolute that is now the [TS]

00:46:45 ◼   ► definitive version is I think that i [TS]

00:46:48 ◼   ► think that morgan Gibbons basically said [TS]

00:46:50 ◼   ► give humans are money and so they they [TS]

00:46:54 ◼   ► paid him and he gave him a you know a [TS]

00:46:57 ◼   ► share or gave him all the money i'm not [TS]

00:46:58 ◼   ► sure but he he paid or maybe you got [TS]

00:47:00 ◼   ► more share but basically that he [TS]

00:47:02 ◼   ► recolored it using some modern [TS]

00:47:05 ◼   ► techniques where he could heat their [TS]

00:47:06 ◼   ► stuff that technically he couldn't do in [TS]

00:47:09 ◼   ► 86 and 87 that he was able to do and it [TS]

00:47:13 ◼   ► looks great and he actually got paid [TS]

00:47:15 ◼   ► because apparently got paid basically [TS]

00:47:16 ◼   ► nothing for this being involved was and [TS]

00:47:19 ◼   ► so it's actually really cool story and [TS]

00:47:20 ◼   ► there's a book called watching the [TS]

00:47:22 ◼   ► watchmen that came out about the same [TS]

00:47:24 ◼   ► time as the absolute that's like a big [TS]

00:47:25 ◼   ► coffee table book that's got lots of [TS]

00:47:27 ◼   ► sketches and notes and some of alan [TS]

00:47:30 ◼   ► moore script and that's for anybody who [TS]

00:47:31 ◼   ► loves the story or who has spent you [TS]

00:47:34 ◼   ► know 20 years living with it [TS]

00:47:36 ◼   ► that's a that's not worth checking out [TS]

00:47:38 ◼   ► too because there's a lot of great [TS]

00:47:40 ◼   ► beautiful detail in that and a story [TS]

00:47:42 ◼   ► about how it all came together we should [TS]

00:47:45 ◼   ► talk about the movie briefly at least [TS]

00:47:47 ◼   ► Lisa can get in her kicks but i wanted [TS]

00:47:49 ◼   ► to start i want to start with then just [TS]

00:47:52 ◼   ► to carry on with what you were saying [TS]

00:47:53 ◼   ► before we set on a very early [TS]

00:47:56 ◼   ► incomparable podcast we were talking [TS]

00:47:58 ◼   ► about watchmen briefly and then you you [TS]

00:48:00 ◼   ► made the provocative statement that the [TS]

00:48:03 ◼   ► movie you know we always say things like [TS]

00:48:05 ◼   ► well you know the book is still there [TS]

00:48:06 ◼   ► it's not changing just because of the [TS]

00:48:07 ◼   ► movie and you actually made the point [TS]

00:48:09 ◼   ► that that the movie diminished your [TS]

00:48:11 ◼   ► appreciation of the book [TS]

00:48:13 ◼   ► yeah yeah so like I said if a couple of [TS]

00:48:15 ◼   ► minutes ago I i reread the book before I [TS]

00:48:18 ◼   ► saw the movie because i wanted to mean [TS]

00:48:21 ◼   ► you know you gonna be ready [TS]

00:48:22 ◼   ► yeah and you go into the idea that the [TS]

00:48:24 ◼   ► book is always better than the movie and [TS]

00:48:27 ◼   ► you you can understand after seeing the [TS]

00:48:31 ◼   ► movie why more thought it could [TS]

00:48:34 ◼   ► and be filmed and I and probably not in [TS]

00:48:36 ◼   ► the way that you might think I i think [TS]

00:48:37 ◼   ► it because it in some ways it's just [TS]

00:48:40 ◼   ► it's just ridiculous on-screen and maybe [TS]

00:48:45 ◼   ► maybe it's because of the will love the [TS]

00:48:46 ◼   ► way you know maybe blame it on the [TS]

00:48:48 ◼   ► director or whatever but no that's a [TS]

00:48:51 ◼   ► start that's just the start in the role [TS]

00:48:53 ◼   ► of blame [TS]

00:48:54 ◼   ► I'm it that that movie you know they're [TS]

00:48:58 ◼   ► there in the past 10 years there have [TS]

00:49:01 ◼   ► been two movies that I've seen that have [TS]

00:49:03 ◼   ► thrown me into a week-long depression [TS]

00:49:05 ◼   ► the Phantom Menace was one and watchmen [TS]

00:49:11 ◼   ► was the other one but but the problem is [TS]

00:49:13 ◼   ► that when you see this stuff act the [TS]

00:49:16 ◼   ► stuff that does that that's on the page [TS]

00:49:18 ◼   ► that you know that you you've studied [TS]

00:49:20 ◼   ► that you've you know you've gotten that [TS]

00:49:23 ◼   ► the ink on your on your fingers reading [TS]

00:49:26 ◼   ► so much and you go back and then you [TS]

00:49:29 ◼   ► actually see it interpreted and put on [TS]

00:49:31 ◼   ► the screen and you realize just how kind [TS]

00:49:36 ◼   ► of dumb advice whole scheme really is [TS]

00:49:41 ◼   ► yeah and then you kind of think Jesus [TS]

00:49:43 ◼   ► this is this is it this is it and so [TS]

00:49:46 ◼   ► yeah and the worst is the dialogue I [TS]

00:49:48 ◼   ► mean what what looks good on the page [TS]

00:49:49 ◼   ► sounds unbelievably stilted when it [TS]

00:49:51 ◼   ► comes out of people's mouths yeah and [TS]

00:49:53 ◼   ► and now so it it it it it because it and [TS]

00:49:57 ◼   ► because i think you know you have now [TS]

00:50:00 ◼   ► you have you have Rorschach's voice well [TS]

00:50:03 ◼   ► I always imagined his voice being [TS]

00:50:05 ◼   ► something very different from what [TS]

00:50:07 ◼   ► Jackie Earle Haley did and he has [TS]

00:50:09 ◼   ► actually pretty good movie but but now [TS]

00:50:12 ◼   ► it's it's jackie earle haley voice and [TS]

00:50:16 ◼   ► not when you look at the book and and of [TS]

00:50:19 ◼   ► course there are other problems with the [TS]

00:50:20 ◼   ► book and the biggest is that that Lori [TS]

00:50:25 ◼   ► gets the line at the of the book yet [TS]

00:50:27 ◼   ► john told me something once when we were [TS]

00:50:29 ◼   ► eating tacos so I don't know nothing [TS]

00:50:34 ◼   ► ever changes [TS]

00:50:36 ◼   ► a lighter and you know yeah John I've [TS]

00:50:39 ◼   ► I've reached the end of my taco nothing [TS]

00:50:41 ◼   ► ever ends Lori yeah [TS]

00:50:43 ◼   ► oh here are you gonna do that that set [TS]

00:50:45 ◼   ► its bottomless taco night [TS]

00:50:47 ◼   ► what are you talking about nothing ever [TS]

00:50:48 ◼   ► ends but code taco Charlie's gonna do [TS]

00:50:51 ◼   ► today that said making the the most of [TS]

00:50:57 ◼   ► the significant change that snider made [TS]

00:50:59 ◼   ► in you know translating it from book to [TS]

00:51:02 ◼   ► screen which was basically blaming the [TS]

00:51:04 ◼   ► whole thing on dr. Manhattan for getting [TS]

00:51:06 ◼   ► yeah that makes a lot more sense to a [TS]

00:51:09 ◼   ► giant oculus thank you God bless you and [TS]

00:51:12 ◼   ► you know what though is as dopey as all [TS]

00:51:15 ◼   ► the rest of it seems when put up on the [TS]

00:51:16 ◼   ► screen i don't think the giant octopus [TS]

00:51:18 ◼   ► would come off that poorly Lisa have [TS]

00:51:21 ◼   ► your kicks go for it [TS]

00:51:22 ◼   ► yeah damn damn first of all if you're [TS]

00:51:25 ◼   ► ever gonna watch the movie leave after [TS]

00:51:26 ◼   ► the credits because the credits the best [TS]

00:51:28 ◼   ► part of that the credits are great [TS]

00:51:29 ◼   ► oh my gosh I had such high expectations [TS]

00:51:31 ◼   ► after watching that sequence because [TS]

00:51:33 ◼   ► that sequence is such a distinct visual [TS]

00:51:35 ◼   ► style and it provides this it really [TS]

00:51:38 ◼   ► puts you in a frame of mind where you [TS]

00:51:39 ◼   ► understand the Ark of superhero history [TS]

00:51:41 ◼   ► as as takes place in this universe it's [TS]

00:51:43 ◼   ► got a very it sucks you into this little [TS]

00:51:46 ◼   ► bubble and your kind of expecting the [TS]

00:51:47 ◼   ► whole motivated to do that it's the only [TS]

00:51:49 ◼   ► bit of adaptation you could argue other [TS]

00:51:51 ◼   ► than changing a lot of the end in the [TS]

00:51:52 ◼   ► movie is that that's where the [TS]

00:51:54 ◼   ► filmmakers actually sat down and thought [TS]

00:51:55 ◼   ► we need to not be slavish how can we use [TS]

00:51:58 ◼   ► this medium to tell a story quickly [TS]

00:52:00 ◼   ► effectively evocatively and then you go [TS]

00:52:03 ◼   ► from that distance that is big and dumb [TS]

00:52:05 ◼   ► and let wet and loud and on fire and [TS]

00:52:08 ◼   ► well and it is using every panel as the [TS]

00:52:11 ◼   ► as the storyboards and is using every [TS]

00:52:13 ◼   ► dialogue bubble as the dialogue as I [TS]

00:52:17 ◼   ► don't think you should at this is where [TS]

00:52:18 ◼   ► I think when you're doing an adaptation [TS]

00:52:19 ◼   ► you really need to to to stress at adapt [TS]

00:52:22 ◼   ► as guesses as the as the syllable to [TS]

00:52:26 ◼   ► keep in mind for for any and all [TS]

00:52:27 ◼   ► creative endeavor because you absolutely [TS]

00:52:29 ◼   ► cannot transpose something that that [TS]

00:52:31 ◼   ► place the strength of one medium into a [TS]

00:52:33 ◼   ► completely different medium without [TS]

00:52:34 ◼   ► considering the the deputies individual [TS]

00:52:38 ◼   ► strengths my biggest complaint about [TS]

00:52:41 ◼   ► this movie however is that they really [TS]

00:52:43 ◼   ► really miss cast a lot of the roles and [TS]

00:52:46 ◼   ► i will contend until I'm old and senile [TS]

00:52:49 ◼   ► and [TS]

00:52:50 ◼   ► and Adrian Lori most particularly I oh [TS]

00:52:52 ◼   ► yeah oh yeah no I'm agent has been [TS]

00:52:54 ◼   ► played by Tom Cruise or somebody who is [TS]

00:52:56 ◼   ► Tom Cruise like iso a feat horrible he [TS]

00:52:59 ◼   ► was crazy German ich accent thing yeah [TS]

00:53:03 ◼   ► but he's like a gyro weenie you know its [TS]

00:53:05 ◼   ► just oh hey now's the time on sprockets [TS]

00:53:08 ◼   ► when we dance he has that kind of you [TS]

00:53:10 ◼   ► know no clown seed and in the book the [TS]

00:53:13 ◼   ► thing that thing is so creepy about [TS]

00:53:14 ◼   ► Adrian in the book is he tries so hard [TS]

00:53:16 ◼   ► to be personable and he tries so hard to [TS]

00:53:19 ◼   ► be this charming approachable Superman [TS]

00:53:22 ◼   ► all time all time and space aside young [TS]

00:53:24 ◼   ► Robert Redford's there is Adrian right i [TS]

00:53:26 ◼   ► mean he is friendly and and attractive [TS]

00:53:29 ◼   ► and he's your buddies and he's really [TS]

00:53:31 ◼   ► into a death roll from twilight zone to [TS]

00:53:33 ◼   ► kill you [TS]

00:53:35 ◼   ► ya know I still think tom cruise because [TS]

00:53:37 ◼   ► yeah got it that is kind of what Tom [TS]

00:53:38 ◼   ► Cruise has going for him is hey I'm a [TS]

00:53:40 ◼   ► star and I'm approachable and you see [TS]

00:53:41 ◼   ► you pal around with people and there's [TS]

00:53:43 ◼   ► something about him that still sits your [TS]

00:53:44 ◼   ► teeth on edge will kill you tackles and [TS]

00:53:47 ◼   ► I totally think that's just see new I [TS]

00:53:51 ◼   ► totally think that would work for this [TS]

00:53:53 ◼   ► movie and I think he was actually [TS]

00:53:56 ◼   ► interested in Lori they just cast [TS]

00:53:57 ◼   ► somebody who looked good and couldn't [TS]

00:54:00 ◼   ► act sad she fit the said that character [TS]

00:54:02 ◼   ► deserve better [TS]

00:54:03 ◼   ► right well now I did the character [TS]

00:54:05 ◼   ► deserve better they did the same thing [TS]

00:54:06 ◼   ► they do every time they could cast any [TS]

00:54:08 ◼   ► woman superhero which is they go for [TS]

00:54:10 ◼   ► somebody who will fill out only at are [TS]

00:54:12 ◼   ► not looking at that as opposed to like a [TS]

00:54:13 ◼   ► mixed martial arts fighter or some or [TS]

00:54:15 ◼   ► somebody who'd be built like an actual [TS]

00:54:17 ◼   ► professional who uses her body to kill [TS]

00:54:19 ◼   ► people but it goes back to the slavish [TS]

00:54:20 ◼   ► devotion to the source material right [TS]

00:54:22 ◼   ► they needed to get somebody who looked [TS]

00:54:23 ◼   ► like Lori so that's what they did [TS]

00:54:25 ◼   ► unfortunately they don't make them look [TS]

00:54:27 ◼   ► that look like Lori but can act [TS]

00:54:29 ◼   ► apparently no no one there's that [TS]

00:54:31 ◼   ► realism that aren't enough actresses in [TS]

00:54:33 ◼   ► Hollywood I guess whether there's the [TS]

00:54:35 ◼   ► the whole realism of comics that comes [TS]

00:54:37 ◼   ► into question to which is which is if [TS]

00:54:39 ◼   ► you're a tough beating up you know [TS]

00:54:41 ◼   ► beating up crooks crimefighter would you [TS]

00:54:44 ◼   ► wear an outfit like that and would you [TS]

00:54:46 ◼   ► look like that and chances are neither [TS]

00:54:48 ◼   ► of those things is is true I i think i [TS]

00:54:51 ◼   ► wrote at the time i actually wrote a i [TS]

00:54:52 ◼   ► found that the other day a blog post [TS]

00:54:54 ◼   ► about after I'd seen this movie which I [TS]

00:54:56 ◼   ► actually saw with Lisa it was always so [TS]

00:54:59 ◼   ► it's Phil who is completely ignore [TS]

00:55:01 ◼   ► have baffled those never read it and he [TS]

00:55:05 ◼   ► refused to read it beforehand he said I [TS]

00:55:07 ◼   ► don't want to read that I just want to [TS]

00:55:08 ◼   ► go in to assess it as a movie yeah that [TS]

00:55:10 ◼   ► they had that had that work out for you [TS]

00:55:14 ◼   ► know I'm kind of great actually [TS]

00:55:15 ◼   ► yeah so so my feeling about it is that [TS]

00:55:19 ◼   ► it's actually not that different even [TS]

00:55:22 ◼   ► though I i spend a little more [TS]

00:55:23 ◼   ► positively than you and Ben I i think it [TS]

00:55:25 ◼   ► were not that far off by feeling is with [TS]

00:55:27 ◼   ► the exception of some casting I think [TS]

00:55:29 ◼   ► it's about as good as a move an [TS]

00:55:31 ◼   ► adaptation of watchmen could probably be [TS]

00:55:33 ◼   ► at least in the two to three-hour movie [TS]

00:55:36 ◼   ► format right only in the sense and and [TS]

00:55:39 ◼   ► basically that means I'm agreeing with [TS]

00:55:40 ◼   ► that i'm not sure it if I i think this [TS]

00:55:43 ◼   ► is about what you could do if you wanted [TS]

00:55:44 ◼   ► to do it and look it you know judge it [TS]

00:55:46 ◼   ► as it is it kind of doesn't work but [TS]

00:55:49 ◼   ► they are not sure they could have made [TS]

00:55:51 ◼   ► it work much better [TS]

00:55:52 ◼   ► I to your point Steve I mean everybody [TS]

00:55:55 ◼   ► who knows me and knows I've said this a [TS]

00:55:57 ◼   ► million times which is adapting this is [TS]

00:55:59 ◼   ► 1212 episode series for HBO maybe [TS]

00:56:03 ◼   ► would've worked [TS]

00:56:04 ◼   ► yes at with those individual chapter [TS]

00:56:06 ◼   ► breaks back but the fact is economically [TS]

00:56:09 ◼   ► you know they just get them they don't [TS]

00:56:10 ◼   ► usually do that anymore unless you're [TS]

00:56:12 ◼   ► george RR martin i guess but I so so [TS]

00:56:15 ◼   ► instead they made it to our movie out of [TS]

00:56:16 ◼   ► it and and and it's it's you know it [TS]

00:56:20 ◼   ► looks good and it's very slave Ashley [TS]

00:56:25 ◼   ► devoted source material and yeah yeah [TS]

00:56:27 ◼   ► the exception of sexy which is expanded [TS]

00:56:30 ◼   ► from the source material and is terrible [TS]

00:56:32 ◼   ► and is unwatchable is is one of the [TS]

00:56:34 ◼   ► least sexy sex scenes in any movie ever [TS]

00:56:37 ◼   ► they really should they should really [TS]

00:56:38 ◼   ► should couple that with abstinence only [TS]

00:56:40 ◼   ► education very everybody read your [TS]

00:56:45 ◼   ► watchman and now watch this movie and oh [TS]

00:56:47 ◼   ► god every don't even don't even have [TS]

00:56:50 ◼   ► read watchmen just watch that one scene [TS]

00:56:53 ◼   ► yeah then this is what awaits you every [TS]

00:56:54 ◼   ► kids don't really know what to the [TS]

00:56:57 ◼   ► internet with me [TS]

00:56:58 ◼   ► so are we were with friends i actually [TS]

00:57:01 ◼   ► genuinely enjoyed the movie i know [TS]

00:57:04 ◼   ► that's that's that's an unusual opinion [TS]

00:57:06 ◼   ► but as you may have gathered from past [TS]

00:57:09 ◼   ► five cast episodes [TS]

00:57:10 ◼   ► I'm a very simple man [TS]

00:57:11 ◼   ► and to me just just the fact that i was [TS]

00:57:14 ◼   ► i I was seeing these characters that I [TS]

00:57:16 ◼   ► grew up with and love to put up on the [TS]

00:57:18 ◼   ► screen by somebody who clearly loves [TS]

00:57:19 ◼   ► them just as much like marionettes know [TS]

00:57:23 ◼   ► there's something to that I've seen it [TS]

00:57:25 ◼   ► I've seen it twice and we'll see it [TS]

00:57:27 ◼   ► again so i don't i don't hate it I just [TS]

00:57:29 ◼   ► you know I i would say i'm deeply [TS]

00:57:32 ◼   ► ambivalent because I appreciate the a [TS]

00:57:35 ◼   ► lot of the work that went into it and I [TS]

00:57:37 ◼   ► feel like it was faithful and yet I i [TS]

00:57:41 ◼   ► also look at it and think move really [TS]

00:57:43 ◼   ► you know I just kind of feel like what's [TS]

00:57:45 ◼   ► the point yeah well look it it wasn't [TS]

00:57:49 ◼   ► League of Extraordinary Gentlemen it's [TS]

00:57:54 ◼   ► never seen that I don't think I wanted [TS]

00:57:55 ◼   ► the reading your spirit that's for sure [TS]

00:57:57 ◼   ► never really ate it it was about as good [TS]

00:58:00 ◼   ► as you could get with about with a two [TS]

00:58:02 ◼   ► to three-hour adaptation I mean that my [TS]

00:58:04 ◼   ► major beefs with some having issues with [TS]

00:58:06 ◼   ► the caveat that the casting was was [TS]

00:58:08 ◼   ► pretty bad [TS]

00:58:09 ◼   ► my biggest beef was I didn't think this [TS]

00:58:12 ◼   ► was something that you could show to a [TS]

00:58:14 ◼   ► watchman virgin and expect them to have [TS]

00:58:16 ◼   ► any idea what the heck was going on and [TS]

00:58:18 ◼   ► I think that the directors cut on DVD i [TS]

00:58:20 ◼   ► think mostly solves that problem so I [TS]

00:58:23 ◼   ► mean I i really wanted to use it as an [TS]

00:58:25 ◼   ► opportunity to to show it to friends of [TS]

00:58:28 ◼   ► mine who would never [TS]

00:58:29 ◼   ► who would never give the the trade [TS]

00:58:31 ◼   ► paperback shot and and kind of use it [TS]

00:58:34 ◼   ► hasn't has an opening to get them into [TS]

00:58:36 ◼   ► watchman and discuss it but it really [TS]

00:58:39 ◼   ► was useless on that front [TS]

00:58:41 ◼   ► yeah I saw it with a group of friends [TS]

00:58:42 ◼   ► who were not comics readers with [TS]

00:58:45 ◼   ► familiar with comics movies and to them [TS]

00:58:47 ◼   ► they just didn't really see the point [TS]

00:58:48 ◼   ► right it to them it was sure you know [TS]

00:58:50 ◼   ► inferior compared to the dark knight ur [TS]

00:58:52 ◼   ► and other things like that which is [TS]

00:58:55 ◼   ► unfortunate [TS]

00:58:55 ◼   ► yeah yeah I i proceeded these motion [TS]

00:58:59 ◼   ► comics versions of it that I actually [TS]

00:59:01 ◼   ► thought were better in that in that they [TS]

00:59:03 ◼   ► were trying to be faithful to the [TS]

00:59:04 ◼   ► exactly faithful to the source material [TS]

00:59:07 ◼   ► and Gibbons actually drew some extra [TS]

00:59:08 ◼   ► stuff for them and you know that's what [TS]

00:59:11 ◼   ► i showed my wife who is not a comic [TS]

00:59:12 ◼   ► books reader and and I thought that I [TS]

00:59:14 ◼   ► thought that went ok / okay with her I [TS]

00:59:17 ◼   ► thought that was kind of a more [TS]

00:59:18 ◼   ► effective way to tell that story and [TS]

00:59:21 ◼   ► letters and whined and you know [TS]

00:59:22 ◼   ► basically 1240 [TS]

00:59:24 ◼   ► five-minute TV episodes using the [TS]

00:59:26 ◼   ► original artwork with a basically a [TS]

00:59:28 ◼   ► narrator whereas the movie it is all [TS]

00:59:32 ◼   ► yeah i mean i-i can't judge it as as [TS]

00:59:35 ◼   ► somebody who hasn't read the book right [TS]

00:59:36 ◼   ► so ima make absolutely no sense to them [TS]

00:59:38 ◼   ► and why wouldn't surprise me right and [TS]

00:59:41 ◼   ► my other big beef was that it's just too [TS]

00:59:44 ◼   ► completely obvious from the start that [TS]

00:59:46 ◼   ► Adrian Veidt is the guy behind the plot [TS]

00:59:49 ◼   ► I mean just that accent just drips guilt [TS]

00:59:51 ◼   ► from c1 to the end [TS]

00:59:54 ◼   ► Egypt's puppetmaster vibes yeah i did [TS]

00:59:56 ◼   ► not get that when reading the book right [TS]

00:59:58 ◼   ► i'm reading the story in the been the [TS]

00:59:59 ◼   ► big [TS]

00:59:59 ◼   ► big [TS]

01:00:00 ◼   ► anything you know that that was that was [TS]

01:00:02 ◼   ► that was a twist that worked for a [TS]

01:00:04 ◼   ► although reading the book this time and [TS]

01:00:07 ◼   ► trying to to trying to really catch on [TS]

01:00:10 ◼   ► to all the clues and hints i can't [TS]

01:00:12 ◼   ► believe i had not figured I know at the [TS]

01:00:14 ◼   ► time it was actually / I know because [TS]

01:00:16 ◼   ► they keep dropping the in our defense we [TS]

01:00:18 ◼   ► were all young teenagers that's true but [TS]

01:00:21 ◼   ► I'm gonna keep dropping things like in a [TS]

01:00:22 ◼   ► pyramid deliveries and they've gone [TS]

01:00:24 ◼   ► through how he has all the Egyptian [TS]

01:00:25 ◼   ► stuff and is a yeah but you know you [TS]

01:00:28 ◼   ► don't even notice a lot of that stuff [TS]

01:00:30 ◼   ► it's well-balanced it feels clever [TS]

01:00:31 ◼   ► without being obvious [TS]

01:00:33 ◼   ► yeah yeah it doesn't it's not one of [TS]

01:00:35 ◼   ► those home right cat-like plot twist [TS]

01:00:37 ◼   ► that comes out of nowhere but when [TS]

01:00:40 ◼   ► Allison Janney's his mom I don't get it [TS]

01:00:42 ◼   ► what so so my last topic is the fact [TS]

01:00:49 ◼   ► that they're making prequels in comic [TS]

01:00:53 ◼   ► form and prepare to be depressed again [TS]

01:00:55 ◼   ► before we watch men all my god watchman [TS]

01:00:58 ◼   ► watchman baby watch the babies are back [TS]

01:01:00 ◼   ► have you guys seen this saturday morning [TS]

01:01:02 ◼   ► Watchmen clip that somebody put up on [TS]

01:01:03 ◼   ► you do [TS]

01:01:04 ◼   ► yeah it's off actually the the guy who [TS]

01:01:06 ◼   ► put that together was a hairy Partridge [TS]

01:01:09 ◼   ► who is the son of XTC frontman Andy [TS]

01:01:12 ◼   ► partner huh interesting literally there [TS]