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The Incomparable

83: Nothing Ever Ends on Taco Tuesday

 

00:00:00   the intemperate or podcast number eight [TS]

00:00:05   every Morris well get well [TS]

00:00:09   welcome back to the incomparable podcast [TS]

00:00:12   on your host Jason snow and tonight [TS]

00:00:13   we're going to be talking about one of [TS]

00:00:15   my very favorite books i guess you could [TS]

00:00:19   say of all time it is the now-legendary [TS]

00:00:22   DC Comics alan moore and dave gibbons [TS]

00:00:27   production of watchmen first published [TS]

00:00:31   in nineteen eighty-six by DC Comics it [TS]

00:00:35   does not use any of the traditional DC [TS]

00:00:36   superheroes instead it's sort of a [TS]

00:00:38   skewed version of originally some comic [TS]

00:00:41   book heroes from a different comic book [TS]

00:00:43   company that DC acquired in a [TS]

00:00:46   interesting kind of intellectual [TS]

00:00:47   property transaction which is ironic [TS]

00:00:49   given what is happening with the [TS]

00:00:51   watchman today which is that DC is using [TS]

00:00:54   their intellectual property to make [TS]

00:00:55   prequels to alan moore and dave given [TS]

00:00:57   seminal book watchman we will talk about [TS]

00:01:00   that later on but we're going to focus [TS]

00:01:01   most of the the podcast today on [TS]

00:01:04   watchman itself the original work from [TS]

00:01:08   1986 joining me to discuss watchman [TS]

00:01:12   famous most the most applauded comic [TS]

00:01:15   book I think of all time probably are [TS]

00:01:18   Lisa Schmeisser hi Lisa hiring doing [TS]

00:01:21   great thanks for being here [TS]

00:01:22   Steve Lutz is also here hi Steve howdy [TS]

00:01:26   Jason get the doctor [TS]

00:01:27   nice talking to you too thanks for being [TS]

00:01:28   here and we have been Boychuk I been her [TS]

00:01:32   please do this entire podcast in a [TS]

00:01:38   monotone there that would be that would [TS]

00:01:40   be something and also joining us our own [TS]

00:01:43   nite owl i don't really know where i'm [TS]

00:01:46   going with their Tony similar hi Tony [TS]

00:01:48   hi alright so watchman uh my wife likes [TS]

00:01:53   to make fun of me and for many things [TS]

00:01:54   but about watchmen about my watchman [TS]

00:01:56   obsession i have at last count i think i [TS]

00:02:00   have four copies of watchmen in [TS]

00:02:03   different forms [TS]

00:02:04   I've got the original issues the pic the [TS]

00:02:08   trade paperback the original trade [TS]

00:02:10   paperback a book club edition hardcover [TS]

00:02:13   of the original know of the original [TS]

00:02:16   trade paperback a book cover and then [TS]

00:02:18   and then the absolute edition which came [TS]

00:02:21   out a few years ago I did [TS]

00:02:23   I was at the height of my comic book [TS]

00:02:25   collecting a period in 1986 when [TS]

00:02:29   watchman came out and in fact I saw [TS]

00:02:31   promo for it in the newsletter from the [TS]

00:02:34   comic book shop where I where I bought [TS]

00:02:35   my comics and and as a result i can [TS]

00:02:38   actually say and this is one of the very [TS]

00:02:39   few times that I've been on the ground [TS]

00:02:41   floor of something that's notable i [TS]

00:02:43   bought watchman number one when it came [TS]

00:02:46   out so so I got to read it i would say [TS]

00:02:50   over 12 months but as anybody who read [TS]

00:02:52   the original issues knows the 12 issue [TS]

00:02:54   didn't come out after one month you get [TS]

00:02:56   away two months to get that final [TS]

00:02:57   conclusion to the story so over 13 [TS]

00:03:01   months i read that story and then have [TS]

00:03:02   read it you know in book form since then [TS]

00:03:04   and I thought I would start there which [TS]

00:03:06   is to ask you guys about what your kind [TS]

00:03:09   of personal relationship with this with [TS]

00:03:11   this book is did you read it early on [TS]

00:03:13   did you discover later [TS]

00:03:15   I'm just I'm I'm kind of curious how you [TS]

00:03:17   all came to to read watchmen Lisa why [TS]

00:03:19   don't we start with you i read the trade [TS]

00:03:21   paperback in 1987 on a model un school [TS]

00:03:24   trip um got no good did story gets [TS]

00:03:29   better on [TS]

00:03:30   I don't know how it could be lonely [TS]

00:03:32   enough than the the young men with whom [TS]

00:03:34   I was some on the Syria delicate [TS]

00:03:37   delegation from other didn't didn't want [TS]

00:03:39   me to read it because they were afraid [TS]

00:03:40   it would offend my delicate female [TS]

00:03:41   sensibilities on account of you know [TS]

00:03:43   with the rape and the the dog murdering [TS]

00:03:46   and other violence and mayhem and so on [TS]

00:03:48   and so forth [TS]

00:03:49   dog were during its number two for you [TS]

00:03:50   that's just didn't want to deserve [TS]

00:03:54   anything else [TS]

00:03:55   um this is true so it was aight i [TS]

00:03:59   actually never physically grabbing the [TS]

00:04:00   book from from one of them and then [TS]

00:04:01   running to the back of the the school [TS]

00:04:03   bus and sitting in the back of the bus [TS]

00:04:04   in and reading through it once and then [TS]

00:04:07   having to stop and look out the window [TS]

00:04:08   for a bit and then reading it again to [TS]

00:04:10   make sure i have understood what i just [TS]

00:04:11   read and then you demanded to be put on [TS]

00:04:14   the delegation from Antarctica was this [TS]

00:04:16   event actually in Syria it seems like [TS]

00:04:18   kind of a long bus ride [TS]

00:04:20   i wiii i was living in Northern Virginia [TS]

00:04:24   the time i think it was in southern [TS]

00:04:25   Virginia and the school bus had a meet [TS]

00:04:28   what basically a governor the school bus [TS]

00:04:29   headed governor so couldn't go more than [TS]

00:04:31   55 miles an hour [TS]

00:04:32   oh wow yeah long bus ride [TS]

00:04:36   022 reads on a long bus ride yeah yeah [TS]

00:04:39   when it blew my mind because it was like [TS]

00:04:41   it was unlike anything I had I had ever [TS]

00:04:44   read [TS]

00:04:44   yeah yeah well so so we'll come back to [TS]

00:04:47   that but moving on to Steve what about [TS]

00:04:50   you [TS]

00:04:51   well I was not a big comic book guy as a [TS]

00:04:55   kid but I was I was fairly well-versed [TS]

00:04:57   in some stuff like amazing spider-man [TS]

00:04:59   and Fantastic Four [TS]

00:05:01   I think I had a few Howard the Duck [TS]

00:05:02   issues and God help me Archie comics but [TS]

00:05:08   i remember back in 86 my nerdy friends [TS]

00:05:11   were all talking about about watchmen [TS]

00:05:14   and how awesome this character mainly [TS]

00:05:15   this character Rorschach was and so I [TS]

00:05:18   figured what the hell there was a comic [TS]

00:05:20   book store just down the street from the [TS]

00:05:21   school so I I i stopped in one day and I [TS]

00:05:25   picked up issues 2 and 3 which were the [TS]

00:05:27   ones that were out at the time so I was [TS]

00:05:29   in fact in on the ground floor or at [TS]

00:05:31   least you know halfway between right the [TS]

00:05:33   mezzanine you were in on the mezzanine [TS]

00:05:35   of watchmen yes message and that's right [TS]

00:05:37   we're stopped in for some bacon martinis [TS]

00:05:40   before proceeding [TS]

00:05:41   yes anyway yeah so I picked up two and [TS]

00:05:44   three and and was enthralled and [TS]

00:05:46   unfortunately one issue one was already [TS]

00:05:49   pretty much sold out everywhere though I [TS]

00:05:51   say everywhere but I really had no idea [TS]

00:05:52   since there was no internet back in [TS]

00:05:55   those heady days and I so really had no [TS]

00:05:57   no means of knowing whether you could [TS]

00:05:59   find it anywhere else but I so I didn't [TS]

00:06:01   get hold of that until several months [TS]

00:06:03   later at which point it ended up costing [TS]

00:06:04   me something like nine box which was [TS]

00:06:06   unheard of at the time but I was pretty [TS]

00:06:10   jazzed to get it and and to this day [TS]

00:06:13   watchman is the the one and only thing [TS]

00:06:15   well technically the only only 12 things [TS]

00:06:18   that i have ever bagged and boarded [TS]

00:06:21   wow that's so you were at your hook to [TS]

00:06:23   that point also got all the next issues [TS]

00:06:25   is it as they came out i did and and I [TS]

00:06:28   suffered along with you waiting for for [TS]

00:06:31   issue 12 at last issue oh man when we [TS]

00:06:34   went to delays before 11 or 10 as well [TS]

00:06:37   no I don't think so I I my recollection [TS]

00:06:39   is that the and I actually at this point [TS]

00:06:41   i live in the town without a comic shop [TS]

00:06:43   so i actually got my comics mail order [TS]

00:06:45   and i got them in a bundle once a month [TS]

00:06:47   and there was a watchman in there every [TS]

00:06:49   month and then that last month with that [TS]

00:06:52   big cliffhanger there was no watchman in [TS]

00:06:54   the Baja there was no internet for me to [TS]

00:06:58   go on and register my disapproval back [TS]

00:07:01   as kids that they used to be you just [TS]

00:07:03   sort of silently raged in your room a [TS]

00:07:06   simpler time you look at you looked [TS]

00:07:08   actually i looked at the receipt in the [TS]

00:07:09   receipt which is handwritten with the [TS]

00:07:11   marks of like what comics you got under [TS]

00:07:12   watchman it said it I believe somebody [TS]

00:07:15   had written in pen delay is taking your [TS]

00:07:20   fist feebly in your room next month that [TS]

00:07:22   the issue is there so it wasn't so bad [TS]

00:07:24   Tony what about you i first read [TS]

00:07:27   watchmen as a young college student [TS]

00:07:30   probably around the year 2000 and this [TS]

00:07:33   was i dread basically kids comics before [TS]

00:07:36   that as you know many years ago so I you [TS]

00:07:38   know I dread like the arching internals [TS]

00:07:40   and the Batman comics based off the [TS]

00:07:42   batman cartoon series and then take it [TS]

00:07:44   kind of a big break from comics in a [TS]

00:07:46   good friend of mine who was basically [TS]

00:07:48   majoring in comic-book curry great for [TS]

00:07:51   comic book curry [TS]

00:07:53   yeah it was an interesting school this [TS]

00:07:55   is one of those make your own majors [TS]

00:07:57   wasn't yes I did when I was not well so [TS]

00:07:59   this friend you know put a copy of the [TS]

00:08:02   the collected trades and in my hand and [TS]

00:08:04   said you know I have to read this and i [TS]

00:08:07   did i read it and basically one sitting [TS]

00:08:09   stayed up all night reading it and that [TS]

00:08:11   basically kind of relaunch my interest [TS]

00:08:14   in comics it which is you know taking [TS]

00:08:16   over a large chunk of my life since then [TS]

00:08:18   at least a large chunk of my possessions [TS]

00:08:20   by weight i'm having just moved my comic [TS]

00:08:23   collection and I went on from that and [TS]

00:08:25   spent you know that was baby the start [TS]

00:08:28   of the summer and i spent basically all [TS]

00:08:29   my disposable income for the rest of the [TS]

00:08:31   summer on an immense number of comics [TS]

00:08:33   that was all kind of kicked off by a by [TS]

00:08:35   reading watchmen being totally sucked [TS]

00:08:37   into it i like the idea of calculating [TS]

00:08:39   your worldly possessions by weight [TS]

00:08:42   well I just moved so what I know I know [TS]

00:08:44   that would be a logical but I just like [TS]

00:08:46   that idea of in general it's like yeah [TS]

00:08:48   you know that thing that I like that's [TS]

00:08:51   it there's too much of it by weight [TS]

00:08:53   I mean I have you know I have a lot of [TS]

00:08:54   board games and a lot of dvds but [TS]

00:08:56   compared to like one box comic books oh [TS]

00:08:58   yeah [TS]

00:08:58   no they're heavy yeah yeah they're heavy [TS]

00:09:01   alright so you you discovered the trade [TS]

00:09:02   paperback [TS]

00:09:03   yeah I was you know I a younger age than [TS]

00:09:07   some people I guess it reintroduced you [TS]

00:09:09   to comics which is interesting because [TS]

00:09:10   for me and this is something about the [TS]

00:09:13   about the the mid to late eighties [TS]

00:09:15   comic-book scene and also and also [TS]

00:09:17   honestly something about being a [TS]

00:09:19   sixteen-year-old when it when reading [TS]

00:09:21   this at 16 years old when your brain is [TS]

00:09:24   developing and you're seeing patterns [TS]

00:09:25   and you you seen complexities that maybe [TS]

00:09:27   you didn't see before that i read [TS]

00:09:29   watchmen and thought well what's the [TS]

00:09:31   point and stopped and actually cancelled [TS]

00:09:34   my comic book subscription for the [TS]

00:09:35   little mail-order people and stopped [TS]

00:09:37   reading comics for like 15 years because [TS]

00:09:39   all of the other comics seemed so [TS]

00:09:41   ridiculously i was already somewhat [TS]

00:09:43   disillusioned by the kind of soap opera [TS]

00:09:45   plots of these ongoing comics and I read [TS]

00:09:47   this thing that tells the complete story [TS]

00:09:49   and has all of these layers and the [TS]

00:09:51   other comics I i just looked at them and [TS]

00:09:52   and and thought but you know I give up [TS]

00:09:56   and I and I literally stopped so it [TS]

00:09:58   started you on the path and it stopped [TS]

00:10:00   me [TS]

00:10:01   watchmen there's a lot of symmetry in it [TS]

00:10:03   you know one person's beginning is [TS]

00:10:04   another person's and that is its [TS]

00:10:06   symmetry amazing so Ben we didn't get to [TS]

00:10:09   you [TS]

00:10:10   what was your entrĂ©e into the world of [TS]

00:10:12   watchmen very similar story to yours in [TS]

00:10:16   1986 bought the monthly and on the [TS]

00:10:19   ground floor in fact somewhere in my [TS]

00:10:21   garage I think her or well somewhere i [TS]

00:10:24   have some promo posters of the series [TS]

00:10:28   invent them that came out before even [TS]

00:10:32   the the issues hit-the hit the stands [TS]

00:10:34   and so yeah every every month [TS]

00:10:38   well II every week because I was so into [TS]

00:10:40   comics at that time and i would [TS]

00:10:43   dutifully make the trip to fantasy [TS]

00:10:46   kingdom on olive avenue in burbank and [TS]

00:10:49   and so I still have you know i still [TS]

00:10:53   have the original series bagged and [TS]

00:10:55   boarded I've got a battered trade [TS]

00:10:59   paperback somewhere and then whenever [TS]

00:11:02   the absolute edition came out my wife [TS]

00:11:05   gave me that for for xmas that [TS]

00:11:07   particular year so it's a good gift [TS]

00:11:09   so yeah that's great gift [TS]

00:11:11   after i got to the dark knight [TS]

00:11:12   absolutely dark night saying the same [TS]

00:11:14   year right and that was a big that was a [TS]

00:11:16   big time for for comics so so when and [TS]

00:11:21   and it's interesting Tony as somebody [TS]

00:11:23   who's younger than the rest of us on [TS]

00:11:25   this panel a little bit little bit um [TS]

00:11:27   Skoosh the just a little just a little [TS]

00:11:29   just a couple more substantial amount [TS]

00:11:31   like a decade snapper he's got damn kids [TS]

00:11:35   the 1i want to talk about being sort of [TS]

00:11:38   disillusioned and why I'm interested in [TS]

00:11:40   that symmetry as you point out I i think [TS]

00:11:43   when some people i was talking to some [TS]

00:11:45   people about watchmen and and I think we [TS]

00:11:47   even had a conversation on our our [TS]

00:11:48   little mailing list about this that from [TS]

00:11:50   the perspective of today I think people [TS]

00:11:53   who haven't been exposed to watch men [TS]

00:11:55   there there's a possibility that they [TS]

00:11:56   look at it and they say I don't get what [TS]

00:11:59   it what it's what the big deal is [TS]

00:12:01   well I've had that conversation with [TS]

00:12:02   people right and i think that I can [TS]

00:12:06   totally see that it's interesting I mean [TS]

00:12:08   I think it's a great work that still [TS]

00:12:11   works really well but if you're [TS]

00:12:13   especially well versed in in comics or [TS]

00:12:15   even if you've just seen a lot of comic [TS]

00:12:17   book themed movies now you this is one [TS]

00:12:20   of those great examples of you know [TS]

00:12:22   after something is so influential that [TS]

00:12:24   everybody everything that's done after [TS]

00:12:26   it is like it it doesn't seem that big [TS]

00:12:28   deal unless you when you look at it [TS]

00:12:30   unless you realize that it was sort of [TS]

00:12:31   the first or one of the first to do what [TS]

00:12:34   it did as as a comic book reader in 1986 [TS]

00:12:37   in 1987 I looked at it and my reaction [TS]

00:12:40   literally was what's the point of all [TS]

00:12:42   these other comic books because they're [TS]

00:12:44   so they just they pale in comparison and [TS]

00:12:47   today's comics you know there's still [TS]

00:12:50   lots of bad comics and lots of good [TS]

00:12:51   comics but one thing that I will say [TS]

00:12:53   because i have started reading comics [TS]

00:12:55   again in the last few years is they they [TS]

00:12:58   don't the things that watchman taught me [TS]

00:13:01   were awful about all the other comics [TS]

00:13:03   that stuff has been corrected in many [TS]

00:13:06   places in many ways because of the [TS]

00:13:09   influence of watchmen so I actually [TS]

00:13:10   think that is over over time and ended [TS]

00:13:13   up having a positive impact but at that [TS]

00:13:15   point it was so good that I felt like [TS]

00:13:17   you know drop the mic and walk away [TS]

00:13:19   it's just like you know butBut comics [TS]

00:13:21   have have a watchman has been [TS]

00:13:23   influential so i can understand how [TS]

00:13:24   people [TS]

00:13:24   young whippersnappers might look at me [TS]

00:13:26   like that yeah it's so it's a dark kind [TS]

00:13:29   of story the toys with the archetypes of [TS]

00:13:31   comic-book superheroes [TS]

00:13:33   doesn't every comic do that cancer is in [TS]

00:13:35   1986 no absolutely not it didn't happen [TS]

00:13:39   that way I think you're going to read [TS]

00:13:41   watchmen and understand why it was such [TS]

00:13:43   a big deal and this would apply to [TS]

00:13:45   people who didn't read the first time in [TS]

00:13:46   1986 and who have benefited from [TS]

00:13:48   approach will post watchman world read [TS]

00:13:50   understanding comics first by scott [TS]

00:13:52   mccloud because he has a lot of really [TS]

00:13:54   good and interesting things to say about [TS]

00:13:57   all the decisions that go into how [TS]

00:13:59   comics are composed from page layout to [TS]

00:14:01   panel size to panel layout to [TS]

00:14:03   composition to the way the words and the [TS]

00:14:07   images complement each other and one of [TS]

00:14:09   the things that Eleanor does throughout [TS]

00:14:11   this book alan moore and dave gibbons is [TS]

00:14:12   they play with the idle time let's start [TS]

00:14:17   where they play with the quality of [TS]

00:14:19   nonlinear time that comics can amplify [TS]

00:14:21   by by pointing out there's that whole [TS]

00:14:24   thing where what's-his-face the guy with [TS]

00:14:26   the blue and having massive penis on [TS]

00:14:28   screen on dr. Manhattan is it really the [TS]

00:14:31   Billy crudo him interesting things you [TS]

00:14:37   remember I know this is after 16 ounces [TS]

00:14:40   of wine folks [TS]

00:14:41   um there's the this particular there's [TS]

00:14:44   the signal where he takes her to Mars [TS]

00:14:46   and he's trying to explain to her feeble [TS]

00:14:49   female earth brain how he doesn't [TS]

00:14:52   exactly live at one fixed point I'm [TS]

00:14:54   going forward going back heat he kind of [TS]

00:14:56   fixes his consciousness to whatever [TS]

00:14:57   interests him in and for him time is [TS]

00:14:59   just another dimension and there's one [TS]

00:15:03   point where he actually explicitly says [TS]

00:15:05   there is no future there is no past do [TS]

00:15:06   you see and that panels like right [TS]

00:15:08   middle of the page surrounded by all the [TS]

00:15:09   rest and it's just a really nice [TS]

00:15:11   back-and-forth interplay were where I'm [TS]

00:15:14   Givens and more are reminding you that [TS]

00:15:16   from you're omniscient perspective is [TS]

00:15:18   the reader there is no future there is [TS]

00:15:19   no past because you can see things [TS]

00:15:21   unfolding in both directions on the page [TS]

00:15:23   this end and it amplifies the point [TS]

00:15:26   they're trying to make in the narrative [TS]

00:15:27   and this happens repeatedly through the [TS]

00:15:29   whole the whole text where all the all [TS]

00:15:32   they do is is when they say something [TS]

00:15:34   the images in the composition repeatedly [TS]

00:15:36   under [TS]

00:15:36   in it and you just get this magnificent [TS]

00:15:38   feedback loop and it's something i [TS]

00:15:39   didn't really fully appreciate until [TS]

00:15:41   after i read understanding comics and [TS]

00:15:43   began to understand that everything from [TS]

00:15:45   gutter size to panel size affects the [TS]

00:15:48   sentences that are going captions are or [TS]

00:15:51   coming up people's mouths [TS]

00:15:52   now one of the one of the things about [TS]

00:15:53   watchmen that i love is that it does [TS]

00:15:55   bear scrutiny and you can reread it [TS]

00:15:57   every time I read it I noticed something [TS]

00:16:00   i didn't use before every single time [TS]

00:16:03   and that me just because I'm not [TS]

00:16:04   particularly perceptive as a human being [TS]

00:16:06   but be that as it may I think there's a [TS]

00:16:09   lot there one thing pops out and and one [TS]

00:16:12   of the things is you can appreciate the [TS]

00:16:13   plot and you can appreciate the twist of [TS]

00:16:16   the plot and the interesting take on [TS]

00:16:18   superhero archetypes right but below [TS]

00:16:22   that level there's like there's the [TS]

00:16:23   fearful symmetry issue where all the [TS]

00:16:25   panel's front back back to front are [TS]

00:16:27   actually symmetric and in their layout [TS]

00:16:29   and there's a spread in the center which [TS]

00:16:31   is just I mean super comic-book nerdy [TS]

00:16:33   and yet it's it's amazing and I'm just [TS]

00:16:36   the way that the panel's these grid the [TS]

00:16:37   grid layout that's used the way the way [TS]

00:16:39   that works toward com is doing what [TS]

00:16:43   they're calling the great Alan Moore [TS]

00:16:44   reread and they posted as of this [TS]

00:16:47   recording a couple of of parts of their [TS]

00:16:49   I think they're going to four-part [TS]

00:16:51   watchman as a part of this may they did [TS]

00:16:53   the anatomy lesson in the the whole run [TS]

00:16:54   of swamp thing and they did miracle man [TS]

00:16:57   and they're going through basically the [TS]

00:16:58   can in a valid more every week on [TS]

00:16:59   tor.com and something that struck me [TS]

00:17:02   about what they wrote about watchmen is [TS]

00:17:04   they talked about the density of it and [TS]

00:17:07   they said that they counted in one issue [TS]

00:17:10   a hundred and ninety six panels of [TS]

00:17:13   watchmen and no issue one there are a [TS]

00:17:14   hundred ninety six panels and an average [TS]

00:17:17   issue of a comic book from 2012 70 so so [TS]

00:17:22   the complete the compression the the [TS]

00:17:26   sheer density of the watchman is also [TS]

00:17:29   amazing and kind of mind-blowing [TS]

00:17:32   compared to today [TS]

00:17:33   so you've got all these elements right [TS]

00:17:34   you that you notice when you read it [TS]

00:17:36   that it's not just the characters and [TS]

00:17:37   applaud but everytime there are the [TS]

00:17:39   details that the dave gibbons the leaves [TS]

00:17:41   everywhere would likely behind at the [TS]

00:17:44   very corner of some small panel [TS]

00:17:46   somewhere there is a detail that's [TS]

00:17:48   relevant [TS]

00:17:48   it's a maze [TS]

00:17:49   I i write it and so so just you can go [TS]

00:17:53   as deep down into the nerdiness as as as [TS]

00:17:57   you want and you will find stuff and [TS]

00:17:59   that that's actually one of the things I [TS]

00:18:00   love about it is that this isn't just [TS]

00:18:01   like a story that they told it's al [TS]

00:18:04   whole world that's been invented and [TS]

00:18:06   infusing like every corner of every [TS]

00:18:08   panel right that was one of the things [TS]

00:18:09   that I I most loved about watchmen to [TS]

00:18:11   reading it [TS]

00:18:12   one issue at a time was that each [TS]

00:18:16   26-page or so issue took like five days [TS]

00:18:20   to really redo for me because I sit [TS]

00:18:23   there and I did examine every single [TS]

00:18:25   panel looking for the recurring motifs [TS]

00:18:26   and we have triangles and the clocks and [TS]

00:18:28   watches and then you know I go back and [TS]

00:18:31   read you know issues when I got issue 4 [TS]

00:18:34   5 and go back and read one through three [TS]

00:18:36   again yeah pour over the same amount of [TS]

00:18:38   time trying to find new new linkages [TS]

00:18:40   between the motifs in the and you know [TS]

00:18:43   try to find clues to the to the [TS]

00:18:45   overriding story I did that almost every [TS]

00:18:47   time you know you get issue 2 and you [TS]

00:18:49   wanted to you could issue 3 and you [TS]

00:18:50   wanted two and three [TS]

00:18:52   that was the great the great advantage [TS]

00:18:54   yeah i mean it really it highlights [TS]

00:18:56   especially reading up that the trade [TS]

00:18:58   paperback over the weekend it really [TS]

00:19:01   highlights how much you lose by not [TS]

00:19:03   having that one month to sort of stew [TS]

00:19:05   over you know what happened in the last [TS]

00:19:08   issue because it was such sweet agony to [TS]

00:19:12   go over and over the the issue and [TS]

00:19:15   trying to figure out what was going on [TS]

00:19:17   and anticipate what was coming in the [TS]

00:19:19   next month or two months I imagine it's [TS]

00:19:22   like people who read Dickens see [TS]

00:19:24   realized in the newspaper when it came [TS]

00:19:26   out that Dickens you know Dickens novels [TS]

00:19:29   were meant to be cliffhanger dan they [TS]

00:19:31   were really more like what we would [TS]

00:19:32   think of almost like a TV show today [TS]

00:19:34   where they would be an installment and [TS]

00:19:35   then there'd be a cliffhanger and you'd [TS]

00:19:36   have to think about it this is why you [TS]

00:19:38   should never read them as living in a [TS]

00:19:39   little literature class the way that [TS]

00:19:41   they're typically taught you should you [TS]

00:19:42   stretch them out this and and this is I [TS]

00:19:45   mean I always thought about Dickens when [TS]

00:19:46   I was watching lost because i thought [TS]

00:19:48   you know lost heads had its faults but [TS]

00:19:49   but i think that they got beaten up for [TS]

00:19:52   frustrating the the viewer but that was [TS]

00:19:56   what it was all about is there's a [TS]

00:19:57   chapter break and then you have to wait [TS]

00:19:59   a week and in a book or our DVD set on [TS]

00:20:01   you [TS]

00:20:01   we've got all the episodes together is [TS]

00:20:05   you can just go at your own pace and a [TS]

00:20:06   TV show by installment you can't and the [TS]

00:20:09   Dickens novel in the newspaper you [TS]

00:20:11   couldn't and watch men there is [TS]

00:20:13   something to be said that watchman was [TS]

00:20:14   not built as a book it was built as 12 [TS]

00:20:16   discrete elements with time separating [TS]

00:20:19   them so you can actually consider what [TS]

00:20:21   you just saw that said it does hang is a [TS]

00:20:23   book which is more than you can say for [TS]

00:20:25   a lot of trades when a serious is [TS]

00:20:27   collected in narrative arcs i mean this [TS]

00:20:29   this works on two different levels where [TS]

00:20:31   I would have liked to have had the [TS]

00:20:33   chance to read it issue by issue but [TS]

00:20:35   having had a completely different [TS]

00:20:36   experience from you guys and having read [TS]

00:20:38   it in one big gulp and then reread it in [TS]

00:20:41   one big gulp what sounds like you had [TS]

00:20:43   enough time on this trip you could have [TS]

00:20:45   taken a week between each and each [TS]

00:20:46   chapter i had to write my position [TS]

00:20:48   papers for first committee Syria to [TS]

00:20:50   disarm it very seriously but it doesn't [TS]

00:20:56   it does also hang together as a book [TS]

00:20:57   especially with the interstitials [TS]

00:20:59   because the interstitials add some depth [TS]

00:21:00   to the bat and the back matter helps a [TS]

00:21:02   lot [TS]

00:21:03   yeah that yeah the back matter not only [TS]

00:21:05   is it great on its own but it is a break [TS]

00:21:07   between the chapters and a lot of [TS]

00:21:09   comic-book collections [TS]

00:21:11   you know you could you could almost in [TS]

00:21:13   fact some cases I think they do you can [TS]

00:21:14   just drop out the brakes and it's just [TS]

00:21:16   one story and it may even be plotted [TS]

00:21:18   that way watch men there isn't there is [TS]

00:21:20   a time to reflect when you're reading [TS]

00:21:21   through you know these book excerpts and [TS]

00:21:24   files and other crazy stuff that's just [TS]

00:21:27   again filling in the backs this rich [TS]

00:21:30   backstory of this world you wouldn't [TS]

00:21:31   know as much about Adrian Veidt without [TS]

00:21:33   it right even with the back matter you [TS]

00:21:36   couldn't get rid of you can get you [TS]

00:21:37   couldn't eliminate that completely and [TS]

00:21:40   watchmen because you would miss out on [TS]

00:21:41   the on the covers which are just [TS]

00:21:42   fantastic and panels in their own right [TS]

00:21:44   and of course the the gradually dripping [TS]

00:21:47   blood onto the clock on the back which [TS]

00:21:48   is rife with symbolism as well so they [TS]

00:21:51   couldn't really eliminate it altogether [TS]

00:21:52   no matter what right knows and that's I [TS]

00:21:55   mean they did keep those so when you go [TS]

00:21:57   through the trade they've got them but [TS]

00:22:00   it was that was it was a whole package [TS]

00:22:02   it was quite a thing to read it any [TS]

00:22:03   issue by issue format [TS]

00:22:05   no doubt about it so so I'm i think that [TS]

00:22:08   somebody touched on this earlier it is [TS]

00:22:10   interesting that the most popular [TS]

00:22:12   character in this [TS]

00:22:13   and in some ways the most conventional [TS]

00:22:15   and heroic in a in that he's a crime [TS]

00:22:19   fighter and he's actually trying to [TS]

00:22:21   solve the murder that caps off this [TS]

00:22:23   story is a completely insane person is a [TS]

00:22:28   psychopath and he's not only popular but [TS]

00:22:30   right he's actually kind of the one [TS]

00:22:31   who's being a hero and the only reason [TS]

00:22:34   he's still a hero is because he's a [TS]

00:22:35   lunatic which is interesting you know it [TS]

00:22:38   you guys have thoughts about about [TS]

00:22:40   Rorschach other than that he is crazy I [TS]

00:22:43   guess I I don't have any friends that [TS]

00:22:44   would describe him is really cool but [TS]

00:22:47   I'm a traveling the wrong crowd to know [TS]

00:22:48   that you're the right crowd but he's [TS]

00:22:50   popular [TS]

00:22:51   it makes an easy halloween costume not [TS]

00:22:53   that hard to draw either if you can draw [TS]

00:22:54   a hat your comfort [TS]

00:22:56   so this is a commentary on on comic book [TS]

00:22:58   superheroes that on one level that is [TS]

00:23:00   really what this is about is sort of [TS]

00:23:02   like trade try to place a comic book [TS]

00:23:04   superhero ideas in the real world and so [TS]

00:23:06   you've got are you got Rorschach who is [TS]

00:23:08   who is crazy and really didn't become an [TS]

00:23:10   effective superhero until he was [TS]

00:23:12   completely crazy and we see why he is [TS]

00:23:14   that way and you've got the the creation [TS]

00:23:17   of the Minutemen and this attempt to [TS]

00:23:19   create the the crime you basically could [TS]

00:23:21   crimebusters that fails miserably and [TS]

00:23:25   they print and the comedian burns up the [TS]

00:23:27   map and and that the superheroes are [TS]

00:23:29   outlawed and I mean that's one of the [TS]

00:23:30   interesting things about this is that is [TS]

00:23:32   that this is taking the shot genre that [TS]

00:23:34   is meant for you know the superheroes [TS]

00:23:37   are the are the prime Jonna in comics in [TS]

00:23:40   our world although not in the world of [TS]

00:23:41   the watchman which is also funny it's [TS]

00:23:43   pirates but this watchman details them [TS]

00:23:46   is just being completely like failed and [TS]

00:23:48   messed up and just just aren't [TS]

00:23:50   completely wreck of an idea of concept [TS]

00:23:53   that a human being would be a hero [TS]

00:23:55   well didn't more intend Rorschach to be [TS]

00:23:58   didn't intend him to be the hero of the [TS]

00:24:00   piece he intended him to be [TS]

00:24:02   I've read sort of the villain of the [TS]

00:24:05   piece in some ways and it certainly he [TS]

00:24:08   writes Rorschach in a way that you [TS]

00:24:12   wouldn't necessarily be a sip of that [TS]

00:24:15   fear of a particular mindset [TS]

00:24:17   this is a guy who you know in the first [TS]

00:24:19   issue says you know used to you know [TS]

00:24:21   he's he's discourse adan you know on the [TS]

00:24:25   on the blood and the filth [TS]

00:24:27   you know of the running through the [TS]

00:24:28   streets and like like coke and little [TS]

00:24:30   green bottles [TS]

00:24:31   yeah hit it contrasts you know that the [TS]

00:24:36   the men who who run the world in 1985 vs [TS]

00:24:41   good men like his father who he never [TS]

00:24:44   knew right and harry truman who dropped [TS]

00:24:48   the a bomb on Japan right and you know [TS]

00:24:52   this is a guy who you know throughout [TS]

00:24:55   throughout the pieces is you know no [TS]

00:24:58   compromise not even in the face of [TS]

00:25:00   Armageddon right [TS]

00:25:02   not it not a hero but but yet he does be [TS]

00:25:05   heroic things and more I think want you [TS]

00:25:07   to say yeah that's ridiculous [TS]

00:25:09   and yet everybody and why not everybody [TS]

00:25:12   but but you know it's funny that yeah [TS]

00:25:14   everything he was the one he was the one [TS]

00:25:16   character that that a lot of folks [TS]

00:25:19   really latched onto and the comedian who [TS]

00:25:22   was also kind of a bad guy i know i just [TS]

00:25:25   well I do [TS]

00:25:27   yeah he's a bad guy and yet at the same [TS]

00:25:31   time he does get horribly murdered and [TS]

00:25:34   and I I work up a little bit of sympathy [TS]

00:25:36   for him when he's when he's sitting on [TS]

00:25:39   the edge of Moloch's bed drunk and [TS]

00:25:41   crying about how it how it went to his [TS]

00:25:43   Madonna figurine my god even he even he [TS]

00:25:47   is horrified by what he has stumbled [TS]

00:25:50   upon right i mean he it's hard it's hard [TS]

00:25:52   for the comedian not to be able to [TS]

00:25:53   please a little your little sympathetic [TS]

00:25:55   like why even this guy is messed up that [TS]

00:25:57   that's that it must be bad i wanna let [TS]

00:25:59   me post this because I it as I was [TS]

00:26:01   rereading it you know there's some I [TS]

00:26:04   can't remember now fight it was an issue [TS]

00:26:05   that may have been issue 5 or issue for [TS]

00:26:09   were where dr. Manhattan is is recalling [TS]

00:26:13   nose is remembering and and and giving [TS]

00:26:17   his assessment of a comedian and what he [TS]

00:26:20   says is something to the effect of you [TS]

00:26:23   Blake saw you know the horrors of the [TS]

00:26:25   20th century and he just didn't care and [TS]

00:26:29   he seemed to understand it [TS]

00:26:31   best of all I mean eat what what he's [TS]

00:26:34   what what what this godlike character [TS]

00:26:37   saying about the comedian is you know [TS]

00:26:40   of this motley crew of of characters [TS]

00:26:43   that populate this this universe in [TS]

00:26:45   watchmen maybe the comedian understood [TS]

00:26:49   it [TS]

00:26:50   best of all and there's that line about [TS]

00:26:52   what happened the American Dream and the [TS]

00:26:54   comedian says it came true you're [TS]

00:26:55   looking at it [TS]

00:26:56   no Abby this is this is one of the great [TS]

00:27:00   things about it is that you've got [TS]

00:27:01   Rorschach was not intended to be a hero [TS]

00:27:03   but but the point is that he he does [TS]

00:27:06   some typically heroic things and that [TS]

00:27:09   he's trying to solve the crime and [TS]

00:27:10   anyway she kinda has his act together in [TS]

00:27:13   a way that the other characters clearly [TS]

00:27:15   don't because the other characters or [TS]

00:27:16   you know the kind of losers are sellouts [TS]

00:27:18   and you know he's got that really [TS]

00:27:20   strongly that he's introduced with the [TS]

00:27:21   you know there's like four pages in a [TS]

00:27:23   row with him kind of investigating the [TS]

00:27:25   comedian's parties got a grappling hook [TS]

00:27:28   he's got a grappling hook and his hips [TS]

00:27:29   too and i mean it's it's a kind of the [TS]

00:27:31   introduction there's no dialogue 44 [TS]

00:27:32   pages it's not him like narrating his [TS]

00:27:35   his exploration we just see him kind of [TS]

00:27:36   you know moving through the apartment [TS]

00:27:39   searching places although it is a hermit [TS]

00:27:41   least once ye grunts and there's some [TS]

00:27:43   other kind of you know but he's not like [TS]

00:27:45   you know he's not required to narrate [TS]

00:27:47   what he's doing to the audience or [TS]

00:27:49   anything and then you know the other [TS]

00:27:51   characters are kind of introduces you [TS]

00:27:53   know i'll be looser or other kind of you [TS]

00:27:56   know misfits um so even if he is [TS]

00:27:58   basically crazy and um at least kinda [TS]

00:28:01   seems to have at least his professional [TS]

00:28:03   act more together than they do I guess [TS]

00:28:05   well and he has a lot going for him in [TS]

00:28:08   the end I think in that he's the only [TS]

00:28:10   one that's that's that's willing not to [TS]

00:28:13   put up with the madness that fight has [TS]

00:28:16   exactly i mean he's easy only one [TS]

00:28:18   willing to walk away from Omelas [TS]

00:28:20   innocence or at least drag the rest of [TS]

00:28:22   the world away from ominous with him so [TS]

00:28:24   been here here's what that line as Blake [TS]

00:28:28   is interesting i've never met someone [TS]

00:28:29   I've never met anyone so deliberately [TS]

00:28:31   amoral he suits the climate here in [TS]

00:28:33   Vietnam the madness the pointless [TS]

00:28:34   butchery as I come to understand Vietnam [TS]

00:28:36   and what it implies about the human [TS]

00:28:38   condition [TS]

00:28:39   I also realize that humans will will [TS]

00:28:41   permit themselves such an understanding [TS]

00:28:43   Blake's different he understands [TS]

00:28:45   perfectly and he doesn't care [TS]

00:28:47   right well that goes into Morse whole [TS]

00:28:49   thesis that anybody who gets into this [TS]

00:28:51   business is going to be able cracked or [TS]

00:28:54   get up two spaces effectively well you [TS]

00:28:56   see it in the original incarnation where [TS]

00:29:00   you had a hooded justice who gets killed [TS]

00:29:03   after piece of rough trade and the [TS]

00:29:06   original the original silk spectre is [TS]

00:29:08   certainly not a model of well-adjusted [TS]

00:29:09   anything right well it and then there's [TS]

00:29:11   the the more you know but personal you [TS]

00:29:15   no matter of dan dreiberg has has hung [TS]

00:29:17   up his costume and he you know he's and [TS]

00:29:19   he's the Batman analog right and and he [TS]

00:29:21   he's got the amazing garage full of [TS]

00:29:23   stuff that's gathering dust and he's [TS]

00:29:25   he's imp and he's impotent until he puts [TS]

00:29:28   on the costume and fights crime at which [TS]

00:29:29   point his funeral [TS]

00:29:31   what I think is interesting that both [TS]

00:29:32   night al1 into is not how one gets [TS]

00:29:34   brutally murdered [TS]

00:29:36   it's just he writes this map he writes [TS]

00:29:38   this memoir you know that we see under [TS]

00:29:40   the hood and it it opens with it opens [TS]

00:29:43   with a supposed to open the tragic [TS]

00:29:45   anecdote he has to borrow from one that [TS]

00:29:47   really is tragic and humiliating for [TS]

00:29:48   somebody else and this is a guy who had [TS]

00:29:50   kind of a middling to ok he happened to [TS]

00:29:52   right he happened to right away if you [TS]

00:29:54   would like that he was like the [TS]

00:29:55   yahoo.com of the superhero and you know [TS]

00:29:58   he gets out just in time he has a decent [TS]

00:30:01   retirement is beaten to death and drugs [TS]

00:30:03   all things considered you know and and [TS]

00:30:07   driver picks it up and he's obviously [TS]

00:30:09   just a rich kid who's looking for some [TS]

00:30:10   kind of purpose or meaning and that the [TS]

00:30:14   whole character both incarnation seem to [TS]

00:30:16   be seeking for something that never [TS]

00:30:17   gonna quit attained and they tell [TS]

00:30:19   themselves a lot of self justify [TS]

00:30:21   self-justifying delusions to to keep [TS]

00:30:24   putting on the hood or to keep making a [TS]

00:30:25   little their little love their little [TS]

00:30:27   ships or or to direct a little memoir [TS]

00:30:29   that they paid really dance around the [TS]

00:30:31   issue of why they did it it's like you [TS]

00:30:33   said that there's there's the whole [TS]

00:30:34   impotence issue and I think you're [TS]

00:30:37   supposed or I came away from it I've [TS]

00:30:38   always going from it just being coupled [TS]

00:30:40   disgusted and I'm sorry for those kids [TS]

00:30:42   from for both incarnations of 9l you [TS]

00:30:45   know there's almost nothing to recommend [TS]

00:30:46   them as people which is ironic because [TS]

00:30:48   he ends up with the girl [TS]

00:30:50   well-well dreiberg is trying writing he [TS]

00:30:53   hang he hangs it up because it's been [TS]

00:30:55   outlawed and and you can see that he had [TS]

00:30:57   he really did have nothing else in his [TS]

00:30:59   life but now right this is filling up [TS]

00:31:02   from fulfilling and he's filling a hole [TS]

00:31:03   by [TS]

00:31:04   by having this this superhero life and [TS]

00:31:07   so he jumps back in it at the end and [TS]

00:31:10   yes he does get the girl so nice [TS]

00:31:13   it'sit's see strikes me the marriage of [TS]

00:31:15   convenience who actually the what [TS]

00:31:18   Hollis Mason is he not the only [TS]

00:31:20   character in either the Minutemen or the [TS]

00:31:23   you know what would have been the [TS]

00:31:25   crimebusters who got into it exclusively [TS]

00:31:27   because he wanted to fight crime and not [TS]

00:31:29   because he had some perversity or yeah [TS]

00:31:33   he didn't have any kids [TS]

00:31:34   if that's what you're asking he didn't [TS]

00:31:36   have any kinks so far as we know [TS]

00:31:38   yeah so far as we know yeah everybody's [TS]

00:31:42   ruffling through their copies its jack [TS]

00:31:45   nice and i think i think about and I [TS]

00:31:47   think the fact that he I think the fact [TS]

00:31:50   that his life ends the way it does is [TS]

00:31:52   supposed to tell you that that you don't [TS]

00:31:53   even that this is not a business forum [TS]

00:31:55   for normal well-adjusted people at all [TS]

00:31:58   yeah what good it does you so so do what [TS]

00:32:06   a maybe talk about dr. Manhattan a [TS]

00:32:09   little bit interesting interesting [TS]

00:32:11   character he has he's naked [TS]

00:32:13   we get to see his little his a little [TS]

00:32:15   depends on the size sizes variable with [TS]

00:32:17   dr. Manhattan his penis is blue penis in [TS]

00:32:20   my defense that my first impression was [TS]

00:32:22   on a movie screen so there's there's [TS]

00:32:24   there's magnifying effects well sure we [TS]

00:32:27   can talk about the weather that was CGI [TS]

00:32:29   or not for poor old Billy Crudup you [TS]

00:32:33   know it's interesting i was actually [TS]

00:32:34   reading up on on some of the wikipedia [TS]

00:32:37   stuff and found it interesting that [TS]

00:32:40   Givens was concerned about actually [TS]

00:32:44   showing the full-frontal with the penis [TS]

00:32:45   because you know it well I he [TS]

00:32:50   deliberately makes it small to make it [TS]

00:32:52   seem like more classical sculpture that [TS]

00:32:55   is not the approach they took in the [TS]

00:32:57   movies [TS]

00:32:57   he's worried about that but there are [TS]

00:32:59   boobs like every other frame [TS]

00:33:03   interesting double standard from the [TS]

00:33:05   eighties yeah from the eighties have [TS]

00:33:07   he's honest reason for ya [TS]

00:33:10   forever yeah so he is he is a [TS]

00:33:13   essentially omnipotent he other than if [TS]

00:33:17   there's a pulse of tachyons in which [TS]

00:33:19   case he gets confused but you know he's [TS]

00:33:21   seeing time in a different way from the [TS]

00:33:22   rest of us [TS]

00:33:23   he's the only character in this in the [TS]

00:33:25   story with actual superpowers to which [TS]

00:33:28   is interesting and their horrifying they [TS]

00:33:31   are horrifying and when he changes he [TS]

00:33:33   changes i mean the balance of power in [TS]

00:33:35   the world it really is i mean there's [TS]

00:33:36   not lying about the Superman is real and [TS]

00:33:38   he's American i mean this is this is a [TS]

00:33:40   take on on on Superman in a way which is [TS]

00:33:44   if there was a guy who appeared who have [TS]

00:33:46   these incredible powers and he was an [TS]

00:33:48   American would that not change the [TS]

00:33:50   balance of power and more takes it all [TS]

00:33:52   the ways is then we sent them to Vietnam [TS]

00:33:54   you know we we didn't we didn't say oh [TS]

00:33:56   well this is he's gonna work for the [TS]

00:33:58   good of humanity was like no he's gonna [TS]

00:34:00   do what we wanted to do so you know it I [TS]

00:34:03   I always always thought that was a [TS]

00:34:05   really strange and interesting character [TS]

00:34:08   to have walking among all the other [TS]

00:34:10   characters in this doctor because he is [TS]

00:34:12   he is if of for the most part almost a [TS]

00:34:16   cipher and the back material reveals [TS]

00:34:18   that the original quote was actually God [TS]

00:34:20   exists and he is American which which [TS]

00:34:23   makes it even more horrifying i like how [TS]

00:34:25   I like having read them out basically i [TS]

00:34:27   think i think there's no other way could [TS]

00:34:28   have ended them with him saying screen [TS]

00:34:30   manatee i'm off to something that's [TS]

00:34:31   worth my time in my talents right but [TS]

00:34:33   he's got the part that perspective at [TS]

00:34:35   the end which is which is like the line [TS]

00:34:36   of the the line of the book right [TS]

00:34:38   nothing ever ends [TS]

00:34:39   Adrian which is it's so true we've we've [TS]

00:34:42   taken this entire plot and then it's so [TS]

00:34:45   obvious and of course it's actually he's [TS]

00:34:47   Ozymandias right and the whole idea of [TS]

00:34:51   air is the shelley problem about the [TS]

00:34:52   crumble the empire that used to be there [TS]

00:34:54   and he's taking this is this incredible [TS]

00:34:57   monument to his greatness and and dr. [TS]

00:35:00   Manhattan the guy with the eternal [TS]

00:35:01   perspective lays down the lays down a [TS]

00:35:03   few that this is not the you know it's [TS]

00:35:05   not the end of the story because there [TS]

00:35:07   aren't such things as ends of stories [TS]

00:35:10   that just doesn't happen but a couple [TS]

00:35:14   is a couple issues earlier the sweetest [TS]

00:35:17   thing in here proving that Alan Moore is [TS]

00:35:18   actually a soft and hard that one of my [TS]

00:35:20   favorite things about dr. Manhattan is [TS]

00:35:22   the thing that is the thing that [TS]

00:35:24   convinces him that he can intervene [TS]

00:35:28   which is this sort of the simple story [TS]

00:35:31   that is the story of every human life [TS]

00:35:33   which is that you know who could have [TS]

00:35:35   predicted that what would have happened [TS]

00:35:37   you know and it which was with blake and [TS]

00:35:39   laurie smith mother to create him and to [TS]

00:35:41   create her and the the this video sperm [TS]

00:35:45   the one sperm to fertilize the one egg [TS]

00:35:47   and this chain that goes back through [TS]

00:35:48   every parent throughout human history [TS]

00:35:50   and you know Alan Moore as as cynical [TS]

00:35:55   guys he can often be is really saying [TS]

00:35:58   there that you know every human being is [TS]

00:36:00   a miracle every human being is kind of [TS]

00:36:02   an amazing through thermodynamic it's a [TS]

00:36:05   miracle that that it that one slight [TS]

00:36:08   change and you would not exist it it's [TS]

00:36:11   you know the and I i think that's a kind [TS]

00:36:15   of an interesting almost happy thing to [TS]

00:36:18   find in the midst of the bleakness of [TS]

00:36:19   this of this story although it struck me [TS]

00:36:22   reading at this time that it's it seems [TS]

00:36:24   a little odd that he hadn't picked up on [TS]

00:36:26   that before [TS]

00:36:27   intel Lori told her her story about her [TS]

00:36:29   own lineage he's focused on his blue [TS]

00:36:32   business his things [TS]

00:36:33   le he spends all his time on Mars [TS]

00:36:35   focused on the chaotic landscape as he's [TS]

00:36:38   you know shaping his glass castle its it [TS]

00:36:41   just seems a bit odd that having spent [TS]

00:36:43   as much time as he did on earth and in [TS]

00:36:45   the presence of of lori that he had not [TS]

00:36:47   got that connection before until you [TS]

00:36:50   know at the crucial moment in chapter 7 [TS]

00:36:53   or whatever it is they're tachyons he [TS]

00:36:55   was distracted or you could I mean [TS]

00:36:56   perhaps it's I mean the kind of the art [TS]

00:36:58   that dr. Manhattan coaster is that he [TS]

00:37:00   kind of loses more and more touch with [TS]

00:37:02   humanity and the understanding for even [TS]

00:37:04   the people around him until perhaps then [TS]

00:37:07   he reaches this point where he sees them [TS]

00:37:08   as you know not just these ants but [TS]

00:37:11   these kind of miraculous combinations of [TS]

00:37:14   fascinating against PS fascinating and [TS]

00:37:18   that are exactly you know the way they [TS]

00:37:20   are and lower is the only one he's got [TS]

00:37:21   any any connection with at all left at [TS]

00:37:24   that point and so but heard the truth [TS]

00:37:26   the facts of her birth [TS]

00:37:27   so the thing that that that you know [TS]

00:37:30   finally make him snap out of it a little [TS]

00:37:31   bit at least realized that that even if [TS]

00:37:34   he's way above humans that humans do [TS]

00:37:37   have some sort of relevance let me throw [TS]

00:37:39   this at you [TS]

00:37:40   this is this is from Grant Morrison's [TS]

00:37:44   super gods and he has a longest section [TS]

00:37:48   on watchman which he says the god of [TS]

00:37:51   watchmen was far from shy he liked to [TS]

00:37:53   muscle his way onto every panel every [TS]

00:37:55   line he strutted into view with his blue [TS]

00:37:58   in Oregon proud display but everywhere [TS]

00:38:04   you look the watchmaker was on hand to [TS]

00:38:06   present his glittering structure for our [TS]

00:38:08   approval and aww just as Manhattan [TS]

00:38:10   directed his own flawless crystal logic [TS]

00:38:13   machine to lay out to lay out the law to [TS]

00:38:16   a distraught Lori in this Manning Lee [TS]

00:38:18   intricate engine of story [TS]

00:38:20   the god of watchmen could not hide and [TS]

00:38:22   beg for our attention at every page turn [TS]

00:38:25   he was a jealous maker who refused to [TS]

00:38:27   allow any of his creations to be smarter [TS]

00:38:29   than he was so the passive his genius [TS]

00:38:32   became a genocide alidium the confident [TS]

00:38:35   trained psychiatrist was reduced to a [TS]

00:38:37   gibbering wreck by their darkness and [TS]

00:38:38   the sole of his patient the detective [TS]

00:38:40   stumbled through the plot to their doom [TS]

00:38:42   and even the more or less divine [TS]

00:38:45   superhuman was shown to be emotionally [TS]

00:38:47   retarded and ineffectual it was as if [TS]

00:38:49   God had little more than contempt for [TS]

00:38:51   his creations and gave them no [TS]

00:38:53   opportunity to transcend the limits he'd [TS]

00:38:56   set for them at first you kinda might [TS]

00:38:58   think that he was talking about in [TS]

00:39:00   Manhattan there but he's actually [TS]

00:39:01   talking about more [TS]

00:39:03   yeah yeah yeah that that's that's really [TS]

00:39:07   interesting [TS]

00:39:07   I mean it is this is this is the this is [TS]

00:39:10   the story right is that everybody is is [TS]

00:39:13   completely ineffectual and you know I I [TS]

00:39:18   guess I it's worth asking the question [TS]

00:39:20   then which is how you know how do you [TS]

00:39:21   guys read as great and intricate and [TS]

00:39:24   interesting as this work is you know [TS]

00:39:26   what is it what is its meaning to you [TS]

00:39:29   does it it [TS]

00:39:30   how does it you know what meaning does [TS]

00:39:33   it have for you beyond just being [TS]

00:39:34   interesting and and carefully [TS]

00:39:38   constructed and having an inn [TS]

00:39:40   packed on the John read that it's in I [TS]

00:39:43   thought the lesson of Washington's that [TS]

00:39:44   nothing matters huh [TS]

00:39:46   I kid that's that's what I took that [TS]

00:39:49   nothing in the adolescent I took was [TS]

00:39:51   that comic books aren't any good except [TS]

00:39:54   for blood yet but I should just give up [TS]

00:39:56   give up everyone give up a lesson is [TS]

00:39:59   that common tell really great stories [TS]

00:40:01   well more didn't really set out to to [TS]

00:40:04   produce a meeting as far as as far as [TS]

00:40:06   what I've read [TS]

00:40:08   hehe wanted to you know take the comic [TS]

00:40:11   medium somewhere new wine and maybe blow [TS]

00:40:13   up superhero no superhero trappings [TS]

00:40:15   along the way right tell what if story [TS]

00:40:18   the germ of his idea was he thought it [TS]

00:40:20   would be interesting to see what would [TS]

00:40:21   happen if he took these existing [TS]

00:40:23   charlton characters and and and me and [TS]

00:40:26   threw them into a realistic setting you [TS]

00:40:28   know any meaning that arose out of that [TS]

00:40:30   it i think is almost entirely [TS]

00:40:31   coincidental [TS]

00:40:33   nothing ever ends Steve well there is [TS]

00:40:35   that maybe that's our lesson or maybe [TS]

00:40:38   the lesson is that there's nothing you [TS]

00:40:39   want to [TS]

00:40:39   well it isn't all that much I you know [TS]

00:40:42   and this is kinda blue and this is kind [TS]

00:40:44   of why for me the work you know as as [TS]

00:40:50   much as it meant to me it meant more to [TS]

00:40:51   me when I was 16 and maybe when I was in [TS]

00:40:55   my twenties and it does now that I'm 40 [TS]

00:40:57   and it's well it's one of those books [TS]

00:41:01   that it you know it's it's you read it [TS]

00:41:03   and that you know you'll never forget [TS]

00:41:05   the first time you read a story like [TS]

00:41:08   this [TS]

00:41:08   yeah re i remember vividly you know [TS]

00:41:13   going over that the first just the first [TS]

00:41:15   few issues i was just completely [TS]

00:41:17   engrossed and captivated and I and and [TS]

00:41:20   you know it it just blows your mind [TS]

00:41:23   right i mean you're cute and you know [TS]

00:41:25   your your teenager and this is this is [TS]

00:41:27   exciting and new [TS]

00:41:29   but over time I'm you have i read it i [TS]

00:41:33   read it again carefully right before the [TS]

00:41:35   movie came out and the the one the the [TS]

00:41:40   great impression I was left with was [TS]

00:41:42   this is really kind of a relic of of the [TS]

00:41:48   eighties and allow you know a lot of [TS]

00:41:51   this stuff is kinda hokey [TS]

00:41:53   and maybe not so as smart as I remember [TS]

00:41:58   it being and I think that just comes [TS]

00:42:01   with with time and experience in reading [TS]

00:42:04   and and your perspective on things [TS]

00:42:05   changes but so for me I I'm a kind of [TS]

00:42:10   ambivalent about the book now I I you [TS]

00:42:13   know 20 years ago I I was much more [TS]

00:42:16   passionate about it and I and I i I'll i [TS]

00:42:20   loved it and now I think my order has [TS]

00:42:23   has cooled greatly then would you think [TS]

00:42:27   what you said this book has a real cold [TS]

00:42:29   war sensibility to it [TS]

00:42:30   oh yeah yeah I'm going to think that [TS]

00:42:32   stands out for me when I do the reading [TS]

00:42:34   is just this real polarity of this real [TS]

00:42:36   sense that both sides will always be as [TS]

00:42:39   they are and it completely dismisses the [TS]

00:42:41   idea that something could happen as did [TS]

00:42:44   happen in real life in 1989 going into [TS]

00:42:47   the nineties something other than [TS]

00:42:49   Armageddon right i mean yeah yeah yeah [TS]

00:42:52   and and so there there's an there's a [TS]

00:42:54   naivete about the book and so when you [TS]

00:42:58   know to read it now is to save it's not [TS]

00:43:01   quite as sophisticated as as I once [TS]

00:43:04   thought and and so you know Ben when you [TS]

00:43:06   hit your forties the order is the first [TS]

00:43:08   thing to brother but it went like anyway [TS]

00:43:12   I don't I I think I don't know about [TS]

00:43:16   sophistication I guess what I would say [TS]

00:43:17   is that is that part of the appeal of it [TS]

00:43:19   is that it is that this is a story is an [TS]

00:43:23   act of rebellion [TS]

00:43:24   I think it is it is all and if you're [TS]

00:43:28   reading it when you're 16 [TS]

00:43:29   man that is the perfect time for it [TS]

00:43:31   because it's all those comic books that [TS]

00:43:33   you loved as a kid and that you're now [TS]

00:43:35   getting in the mail once a month right [TS]

00:43:37   I mean for me that was exactly what it [TS]

00:43:38   was they are they they are day they [TS]

00:43:42   don't bear any resemblance to reality [TS]

00:43:44   they don't work logically that's not how [TS]

00:43:47   it would be [TS]

00:43:48   we're going to use this medium to [TS]

00:43:51   destroy all of the you know the the the [TS]

00:43:54   conventions that you've that they've had [TS]

00:43:57   that all these beliefs that you've had [TS]

00:43:59   about it and as as an act of rebellion [TS]

00:44:02   is kind of a bomb placed in this in the [TS]

00:44:04   genre that i've been reading since I was [TS]

00:44:05   five years old [TS]

00:44:06   it was incredibly effective effect is [TS]

00:44:09   not only was that a bomb from 1987 but [TS]

00:44:13   uh it changed the medium and the world [TS]

00:44:17   has moved on so what were left with is [TS]

00:44:20   you know that it was influential and [TS]

00:44:23   that it's got a kind of a clever plot [TS]

00:44:25   although even there the time sequence [TS]

00:44:27   stuff has been beaten to death by modern [TS]

00:44:29   narrative techniques right i mean it's [TS]

00:44:31   quentin tarantino did you know made pulp [TS]

00:44:35   fiction with with slices of of time out [TS]

00:44:37   of order and every TV show and movie [TS]

00:44:40   since then has has done that and so even [TS]

00:44:43   the doctor manhattan stuff where it's so [TS]

00:44:45   cool that he used time non-linearly it's [TS]

00:44:47   like yeah it everybody we got it we got [TS]

00:44:51   it right so it makes it very difficult [TS]

00:44:53   to look at that at and so in some ways [TS]

00:44:56   that the stuff that I've I discover when [TS]

00:44:58   I reread it is not so much about the [TS]

00:45:00   message or the meaning or the the plot [TS]

00:45:02   even as much as the detail in the world [TS]

00:45:07   and for that I I we've been talking [TS]

00:45:09   about alan moore a whole lot but for [TS]

00:45:11   that I i give a whole lot of credit to [TS]

00:45:13   Dave Gibbons whoo-hoo the detail in the [TS]

00:45:16   work especially if you look at the [TS]

00:45:17   absolute collection is really kind of [TS]

00:45:21   amazing and viewed on purely on that [TS]

00:45:23   level i think this is a this is an [TS]

00:45:25   amazing work i think more himself even [TS]

00:45:28   said that he was discovering things you [TS]

00:45:31   know that's later that he didn't he had [TS]

00:45:33   no idea where their yeah yeah so i need [TS]

00:45:35   to give it even if you some of that [TS]

00:45:37   stuff has lost its power over time and [TS]

00:45:39   it is much more something in our [TS]

00:45:43   relative of the eighties in some ways [TS]

00:45:45   even though it was incredibly [TS]

00:45:46   influential still some of that some of [TS]

00:45:48   that work that the Givens did is amazing [TS]

00:45:51   and the absolute also we should say John [TS]

00:45:53   Higgins the original colorist recolored [TS]

00:45:55   it because the color technology in the [TS]

00:45:57   eighties will apparently really terrible [TS]

00:46:00   there's actually a great story about [TS]

00:46:02   about that i think i think maybe in the [TS]

00:46:04   absolute edition about how he had a [TS]

00:46:06   recolor it digitally and it's that's the [TS]

00:46:08   version that's used on the on the [TS]

00:46:11   regular trade editions now is also using [TS]

00:46:14   that special recolored and it they look [TS]

00:46:16   much better so the shoutout to the [TS]

00:46:18   colors but also just to get in [TS]

00:46:20   the artist because that there's some [TS]

00:46:22   amazing work in in the details of every [TS]

00:46:25   panel of this of this book actually I'm [TS]

00:46:28   really really glad you brought up John [TS]

00:46:29   Higgins because i've i've always felt it [TS]

00:46:31   was a bit of a shame that he didn't get [TS]

00:46:33   an equal credit with that with Givens [TS]

00:46:35   and more because his color work is just [TS]

00:46:38   it's a major major part of what makes [TS]

00:46:40   watchman great from one of the nice [TS]

00:46:42   things about the recolor that they did [TS]

00:46:43   for the absolute that is now the [TS]

00:46:45   definitive version is I think that i [TS]

00:46:48   think that morgan Gibbons basically said [TS]

00:46:50   give humans are money and so they they [TS]

00:46:54   paid him and he gave him a you know a [TS]

00:46:57   share or gave him all the money i'm not [TS]

00:46:58   sure but he he paid or maybe you got [TS]

00:47:00   more share but basically that he [TS]

00:47:02   recolored it using some modern [TS]

00:47:05   techniques where he could heat their [TS]

00:47:06   stuff that technically he couldn't do in [TS]

00:47:09   86 and 87 that he was able to do and it [TS]

00:47:13   looks great and he actually got paid [TS]

00:47:15   because apparently got paid basically [TS]

00:47:16   nothing for this being involved was and [TS]

00:47:19   so it's actually really cool story and [TS]

00:47:20   there's a book called watching the [TS]

00:47:22   watchmen that came out about the same [TS]

00:47:24   time as the absolute that's like a big [TS]

00:47:25   coffee table book that's got lots of [TS]

00:47:27   sketches and notes and some of alan [TS]

00:47:30   moore script and that's for anybody who [TS]

00:47:31   loves the story or who has spent you [TS]

00:47:34   know 20 years living with it [TS]

00:47:36   that's a that's not worth checking out [TS]

00:47:38   too because there's a lot of great [TS]

00:47:40   beautiful detail in that and a story [TS]

00:47:42   about how it all came together we should [TS]

00:47:45   talk about the movie briefly at least [TS]

00:47:47   Lisa can get in her kicks but i wanted [TS]

00:47:49   to start i want to start with then just [TS]

00:47:52   to carry on with what you were saying [TS]

00:47:53   before we set on a very early [TS]

00:47:56   incomparable podcast we were talking [TS]

00:47:58   about watchmen briefly and then you you [TS]

00:48:00   made the provocative statement that the [TS]

00:48:03   movie you know we always say things like [TS]

00:48:05   well you know the book is still there [TS]

00:48:06   it's not changing just because of the [TS]

00:48:07   movie and you actually made the point [TS]

00:48:09   that that the movie diminished your [TS]

00:48:11   appreciation of the book [TS]

00:48:13   yeah yeah so like I said if a couple of [TS]

00:48:15   minutes ago I i reread the book before I [TS]

00:48:18   saw the movie because i wanted to mean [TS]

00:48:21   you know you gonna be ready [TS]

00:48:22   yeah and you go into the idea that the [TS]

00:48:24   book is always better than the movie and [TS]

00:48:27   you you can understand after seeing the [TS]

00:48:31   movie why more thought it could [TS]

00:48:34   and be filmed and I and probably not in [TS]

00:48:36   the way that you might think I i think [TS]

00:48:37   it because it in some ways it's just [TS]

00:48:40   it's just ridiculous on-screen and maybe [TS]

00:48:45   maybe it's because of the will love the [TS]

00:48:46   way you know maybe blame it on the [TS]

00:48:48   director or whatever but no that's a [TS]

00:48:51   start that's just the start in the role [TS]

00:48:53   of blame [TS]

00:48:54   I'm it that that movie you know they're [TS]

00:48:58   there in the past 10 years there have [TS]

00:49:01   been two movies that I've seen that have [TS]

00:49:03   thrown me into a week-long depression [TS]

00:49:05   the Phantom Menace was one and watchmen [TS]

00:49:11   was the other one but but the problem is [TS]

00:49:13   that when you see this stuff act the [TS]

00:49:16   stuff that does that that's on the page [TS]

00:49:18   that you know that you you've studied [TS]

00:49:20   that you've you know you've gotten that [TS]

00:49:23   the ink on your on your fingers reading [TS]

00:49:26   so much and you go back and then you [TS]

00:49:29   actually see it interpreted and put on [TS]

00:49:31   the screen and you realize just how kind [TS]

00:49:36   of dumb advice whole scheme really is [TS]

00:49:41   yeah and then you kind of think Jesus [TS]

00:49:43   this is this is it this is it and so [TS]

00:49:46   yeah and the worst is the dialogue I [TS]

00:49:48   mean what what looks good on the page [TS]

00:49:49   sounds unbelievably stilted when it [TS]

00:49:51   comes out of people's mouths yeah and [TS]

00:49:53   and now so it it it it it because it and [TS]

00:49:57   because i think you know you have now [TS]

00:50:00   you have you have Rorschach's voice well [TS]

00:50:03   I always imagined his voice being [TS]

00:50:05   something very different from what [TS]

00:50:07   Jackie Earle Haley did and he has [TS]

00:50:09   actually pretty good movie but but now [TS]

00:50:12   it's it's jackie earle haley voice and [TS]

00:50:16   not when you look at the book and and of [TS]

00:50:19   course there are other problems with the [TS]

00:50:20   book and the biggest is that that Lori [TS]

00:50:25   gets the line at the of the book yet [TS]

00:50:27   john told me something once when we were [TS]

00:50:29   eating tacos so I don't know nothing [TS]

00:50:34   ever changes [TS]

00:50:36   a lighter and you know yeah John I've [TS]

00:50:39   I've reached the end of my taco nothing [TS]

00:50:41   ever ends Lori yeah [TS]

00:50:43   oh here are you gonna do that that set [TS]

00:50:45   its bottomless taco night [TS]

00:50:47   what are you talking about nothing ever [TS]

00:50:48   ends but code taco Charlie's gonna do [TS]

00:50:51   today that said making the the most of [TS]

00:50:57   the significant change that snider made [TS]

00:50:59   in you know translating it from book to [TS]

00:51:02   screen which was basically blaming the [TS]

00:51:04   whole thing on dr. Manhattan for getting [TS]

00:51:06   yeah that makes a lot more sense to a [TS]

00:51:09   giant oculus thank you God bless you and [TS]

00:51:12   you know what though is as dopey as all [TS]

00:51:15   the rest of it seems when put up on the [TS]

00:51:16   screen i don't think the giant octopus [TS]

00:51:18   would come off that poorly Lisa have [TS]

00:51:21   your kicks go for it [TS]

00:51:22   yeah damn damn first of all if you're [TS]

00:51:25   ever gonna watch the movie leave after [TS]

00:51:26   the credits because the credits the best [TS]

00:51:28   part of that the credits are great [TS]

00:51:29   oh my gosh I had such high expectations [TS]

00:51:31   after watching that sequence because [TS]

00:51:33   that sequence is such a distinct visual [TS]

00:51:35   style and it provides this it really [TS]

00:51:38   puts you in a frame of mind where you [TS]

00:51:39   understand the Ark of superhero history [TS]

00:51:41   as as takes place in this universe it's [TS]

00:51:43   got a very it sucks you into this little [TS]

00:51:46   bubble and your kind of expecting the [TS]

00:51:47   whole motivated to do that it's the only [TS]

00:51:49   bit of adaptation you could argue other [TS]

00:51:51   than changing a lot of the end in the [TS]

00:51:52   movie is that that's where the [TS]

00:51:54   filmmakers actually sat down and thought [TS]

00:51:55   we need to not be slavish how can we use [TS]

00:51:58   this medium to tell a story quickly [TS]

00:52:00   effectively evocatively and then you go [TS]

00:52:03   from that distance that is big and dumb [TS]

00:52:05   and let wet and loud and on fire and [TS]

00:52:08   well and it is using every panel as the [TS]

00:52:11   as the storyboards and is using every [TS]

00:52:13   dialogue bubble as the dialogue as I [TS]

00:52:17   don't think you should at this is where [TS]

00:52:18   I think when you're doing an adaptation [TS]

00:52:19   you really need to to to stress at adapt [TS]

00:52:22   as guesses as the as the syllable to [TS]

00:52:26   keep in mind for for any and all [TS]

00:52:27   creative endeavor because you absolutely [TS]

00:52:29   cannot transpose something that that [TS]

00:52:31   place the strength of one medium into a [TS]

00:52:33   completely different medium without [TS]

00:52:34   considering the the deputies individual [TS]

00:52:38   strengths my biggest complaint about [TS]

00:52:41   this movie however is that they really [TS]

00:52:43   really miss cast a lot of the roles and [TS]

00:52:46   i will contend until I'm old and senile [TS]

00:52:49   and [TS]

00:52:50   and Adrian Lori most particularly I oh [TS]

00:52:52   yeah oh yeah no I'm agent has been [TS]

00:52:54   played by Tom Cruise or somebody who is [TS]

00:52:56   Tom Cruise like iso a feat horrible he [TS]

00:52:59   was crazy German ich accent thing yeah [TS]

00:53:03   but he's like a gyro weenie you know its [TS]

00:53:05   just oh hey now's the time on sprockets [TS]

00:53:08   when we dance he has that kind of you [TS]

00:53:10   know no clown seed and in the book the [TS]

00:53:13   thing that thing is so creepy about [TS]

00:53:14   Adrian in the book is he tries so hard [TS]

00:53:16   to be personable and he tries so hard to [TS]

00:53:19   be this charming approachable Superman [TS]

00:53:22   all time all time and space aside young [TS]

00:53:24   Robert Redford's there is Adrian right i [TS]

00:53:26   mean he is friendly and and attractive [TS]

00:53:29   and he's your buddies and he's really [TS]

00:53:31   into a death roll from twilight zone to [TS]

00:53:33   kill you [TS]

00:53:35   ya know I still think tom cruise because [TS]

00:53:37   yeah got it that is kind of what Tom [TS]

00:53:38   Cruise has going for him is hey I'm a [TS]

00:53:40   star and I'm approachable and you see [TS]

00:53:41   you pal around with people and there's [TS]

00:53:43   something about him that still sits your [TS]

00:53:44   teeth on edge will kill you tackles and [TS]

00:53:47   I totally think that's just see new I [TS]

00:53:51   totally think that would work for this [TS]

00:53:53   movie and I think he was actually [TS]

00:53:56   interested in Lori they just cast [TS]

00:53:57   somebody who looked good and couldn't [TS]

00:54:00   act sad she fit the said that character [TS]

00:54:02   deserve better [TS]

00:54:03   right well now I did the character [TS]

00:54:05   deserve better they did the same thing [TS]

00:54:06   they do every time they could cast any [TS]

00:54:08   woman superhero which is they go for [TS]

00:54:10   somebody who will fill out only at are [TS]

00:54:12   not looking at that as opposed to like a [TS]

00:54:13   mixed martial arts fighter or some or [TS]

00:54:15   somebody who'd be built like an actual [TS]

00:54:17   professional who uses her body to kill [TS]

00:54:19   people but it goes back to the slavish [TS]

00:54:20   devotion to the source material right [TS]

00:54:22   they needed to get somebody who looked [TS]

00:54:23   like Lori so that's what they did [TS]

00:54:25   unfortunately they don't make them look [TS]

00:54:27   that look like Lori but can act [TS]

00:54:29   apparently no no one there's that [TS]

00:54:31   realism that aren't enough actresses in [TS]

00:54:33   Hollywood I guess whether there's the [TS]

00:54:35   the whole realism of comics that comes [TS]

00:54:37   into question to which is which is if [TS]

00:54:39   you're a tough beating up you know [TS]

00:54:41   beating up crooks crimefighter would you [TS]

00:54:44   wear an outfit like that and would you [TS]

00:54:46   look like that and chances are neither [TS]

00:54:48   of those things is is true I i think i [TS]

00:54:51   wrote at the time i actually wrote a i [TS]

00:54:52   found that the other day a blog post [TS]

00:54:54   about after I'd seen this movie which I [TS]

00:54:56   actually saw with Lisa it was always so [TS]

00:54:59   it's Phil who is completely ignore [TS]

00:55:01   have baffled those never read it and he [TS]

00:55:05   refused to read it beforehand he said I [TS]

00:55:07   don't want to read that I just want to [TS]

00:55:08   go in to assess it as a movie yeah that [TS]

00:55:10   they had that had that work out for you [TS]

00:55:14   know I'm kind of great actually [TS]

00:55:15   yeah so so my feeling about it is that [TS]

00:55:19   it's actually not that different even [TS]

00:55:22   though I i spend a little more [TS]

00:55:23   positively than you and Ben I i think it [TS]

00:55:25   were not that far off by feeling is with [TS]

00:55:27   the exception of some casting I think [TS]

00:55:29   it's about as good as a move an [TS]

00:55:31   adaptation of watchmen could probably be [TS]

00:55:33   at least in the two to three-hour movie [TS]

00:55:36   format right only in the sense and and [TS]

00:55:39   basically that means I'm agreeing with [TS]

00:55:40   that i'm not sure it if I i think this [TS]

00:55:43   is about what you could do if you wanted [TS]

00:55:44   to do it and look it you know judge it [TS]

00:55:46   as it is it kind of doesn't work but [TS]

00:55:49   they are not sure they could have made [TS]

00:55:51   it work much better [TS]

00:55:52   I to your point Steve I mean everybody [TS]

00:55:55   who knows me and knows I've said this a [TS]

00:55:57   million times which is adapting this is [TS]

00:55:59   1212 episode series for HBO maybe [TS]

00:56:03   would've worked [TS]

00:56:04   yes at with those individual chapter [TS]

00:56:06   breaks back but the fact is economically [TS]

00:56:09   you know they just get them they don't [TS]

00:56:10   usually do that anymore unless you're [TS]

00:56:12   george RR martin i guess but I so so [TS]

00:56:15   instead they made it to our movie out of [TS]

00:56:16   it and and and it's it's you know it [TS]

00:56:20   looks good and it's very slave Ashley [TS]

00:56:25   devoted source material and yeah yeah [TS]

00:56:27   the exception of sexy which is expanded [TS]

00:56:30   from the source material and is terrible [TS]

00:56:32   and is unwatchable is is one of the [TS]

00:56:34   least sexy sex scenes in any movie ever [TS]

00:56:37   they really should they should really [TS]

00:56:38   should couple that with abstinence only [TS]

00:56:40   education very everybody read your [TS]

00:56:45   watchman and now watch this movie and oh [TS]

00:56:47   god every don't even don't even have [TS]

00:56:50   read watchmen just watch that one scene [TS]

00:56:53   yeah then this is what awaits you every [TS]

00:56:54   kids don't really know what to the [TS]

00:56:57   internet with me [TS]

00:56:58   so are we were with friends i actually [TS]

00:57:01   genuinely enjoyed the movie i know [TS]

00:57:04   that's that's that's an unusual opinion [TS]

00:57:06   but as you may have gathered from past [TS]

00:57:09   five cast episodes [TS]

00:57:10   I'm a very simple man [TS]

00:57:11   and to me just just the fact that i was [TS]

00:57:14   i I was seeing these characters that I [TS]

00:57:16   grew up with and love to put up on the [TS]

00:57:18   screen by somebody who clearly loves [TS]

00:57:19   them just as much like marionettes know [TS]

00:57:23   there's something to that I've seen it [TS]

00:57:25   I've seen it twice and we'll see it [TS]

00:57:27   again so i don't i don't hate it I just [TS]

00:57:29   you know I i would say i'm deeply [TS]

00:57:32   ambivalent because I appreciate the a [TS]

00:57:35   lot of the work that went into it and I [TS]

00:57:37   feel like it was faithful and yet I i [TS]

00:57:41   also look at it and think move really [TS]

00:57:43   you know I just kind of feel like what's [TS]

00:57:45   the point yeah well look it it wasn't [TS]

00:57:49   League of Extraordinary Gentlemen it's [TS]

00:57:54   never seen that I don't think I wanted [TS]

00:57:55   the reading your spirit that's for sure [TS]

00:57:57   never really ate it it was about as good [TS]

00:58:00   as you could get with about with a two [TS]

00:58:02   to three-hour adaptation I mean that my [TS]

00:58:04   major beefs with some having issues with [TS]

00:58:06   the caveat that the casting was was [TS]

00:58:08   pretty bad [TS]

00:58:09   my biggest beef was I didn't think this [TS]

00:58:12   was something that you could show to a [TS]

00:58:14   watchman virgin and expect them to have [TS]

00:58:16   any idea what the heck was going on and [TS]

00:58:18   I think that the directors cut on DVD i [TS]

00:58:20   think mostly solves that problem so I [TS]

00:58:23   mean I i really wanted to use it as an [TS]

00:58:25   opportunity to to show it to friends of [TS]

00:58:28   mine who would never [TS]

00:58:29   who would never give the the trade [TS]

00:58:31   paperback shot and and kind of use it [TS]

00:58:34   hasn't has an opening to get them into [TS]

00:58:36   watchman and discuss it but it really [TS]

00:58:39   was useless on that front [TS]

00:58:41   yeah I saw it with a group of friends [TS]

00:58:42   who were not comics readers with [TS]

00:58:45   familiar with comics movies and to them [TS]

00:58:47   they just didn't really see the point [TS]

00:58:48   right it to them it was sure you know [TS]

00:58:50   inferior compared to the dark knight ur [TS]

00:58:52   and other things like that which is [TS]

00:58:55   unfortunate [TS]

00:58:55   yeah yeah I i proceeded these motion [TS]

00:58:59   comics versions of it that I actually [TS]

00:59:01   thought were better in that in that they [TS]

00:59:03   were trying to be faithful to the [TS]

00:59:04   exactly faithful to the source material [TS]

00:59:07   and Gibbons actually drew some extra [TS]

00:59:08   stuff for them and you know that's what [TS]

00:59:11   i showed my wife who is not a comic [TS]

00:59:12   books reader and and I thought that I [TS]

00:59:14   thought that went ok / okay with her I [TS]

00:59:17   thought that was kind of a more [TS]

00:59:18   effective way to tell that story and [TS]

00:59:21   letters and whined and you know [TS]

00:59:22   basically 1240 [TS]

00:59:24   five-minute TV episodes using the [TS]

00:59:26   original artwork with a basically a [TS]

00:59:28   narrator whereas the movie it is all [TS]

00:59:32   yeah i mean i-i can't judge it as as [TS]

00:59:35   somebody who hasn't read the book right [TS]

00:59:36   so ima make absolutely no sense to them [TS]

00:59:38   and why wouldn't surprise me right and [TS]

00:59:41   my other big beef was that it's just too [TS]

00:59:44   completely obvious from the start that [TS]

00:59:46   Adrian Veidt is the guy behind the plot [TS]

00:59:49   I mean just that accent just drips guilt [TS]

00:59:51   from c1 to the end [TS]

00:59:54   Egypt's puppetmaster vibes yeah i did [TS]

00:59:56   not get that when reading the book right [TS]

00:59:58   i'm reading the story in the been the [TS]

00:59:59   big [TS]

00:59:59   big [TS]

01:00:00   anything you know that that was that was [TS]

01:00:02   that was a twist that worked for a [TS]

01:00:04   although reading the book this time and [TS]

01:00:07   trying to to trying to really catch on [TS]

01:00:10   to all the clues and hints i can't [TS]

01:00:12   believe i had not figured I know at the [TS]

01:00:14   time it was actually / I know because [TS]

01:00:16   they keep dropping the in our defense we [TS]

01:00:18   were all young teenagers that's true but [TS]

01:00:21   I'm gonna keep dropping things like in a [TS]

01:00:22   pyramid deliveries and they've gone [TS]

01:00:24   through how he has all the Egyptian [TS]

01:00:25   stuff and is a yeah but you know you [TS]

01:00:28   don't even notice a lot of that stuff [TS]

01:00:30   it's well-balanced it feels clever [TS]

01:00:31   without being obvious [TS]

01:00:33   yeah yeah it doesn't it's not one of [TS]

01:00:35   those home right cat-like plot twist [TS]

01:00:37   that comes out of nowhere but when [TS]

01:00:40   Allison Janney's his mom I don't get it [TS]

01:00:42   what so so my last topic is the fact [TS]

01:00:49   that they're making prequels in comic [TS]

01:00:53   form and prepare to be depressed again [TS]

01:00:55   before we watch men all my god watchman [TS]

01:00:58   watchman baby watch the babies are back [TS]

01:01:00   have you guys seen this saturday morning [TS]

01:01:02   Watchmen clip that somebody put up on [TS]

01:01:03   you do [TS]

01:01:04   yeah it's off actually the the guy who [TS]

01:01:06   put that together was a hairy Partridge [TS]

01:01:09   who is the son of XTC frontman Andy [TS]

01:01:12   partner huh interesting literally there [TS]

01:01:15   wow so so obviously all the comic book [TS]

01:01:18   geeks are in an uproar about this [TS]

01:01:20   because they're there was a really [TS]

01:01:21   interesting debate about it has been [TS]

01:01:24   pointed out watchman itself was [TS]

01:01:26   originally kind of started as a use of [TS]

01:01:28   these charlton comic book characters [TS]

01:01:30   thanks for pointing that out [TS]

01:01:31   30 ok full credit to Steve as ray [TS]

01:01:33   pointed out I'll ray is not with us [TS]

01:01:37   anymore so the heat so that maybe [TS]

01:01:41   they're making these prequels and and i [TS]

01:01:42   don't i don't know what to think [TS]

01:01:44   well eight years here's my view on that [TS]

01:01:47   when they collect them all into you know [TS]

01:01:50   a giant omnibus which they will which [TS]

01:01:54   they will a different ways time all day [TS]

01:01:55   i will go to the barnes and noble [TS]

01:01:57   assuming the barnes and noble is still [TS]

01:01:59   in business right [TS]

01:02:00   and assuming the shrink-wrap has been [TS]

01:02:02   ripped off one of the copies i will flip [TS]

01:02:04   through it and if it attracts me then [TS]

01:02:07   I'll buy it but otherwise otherwise they [TS]

01:02:11   can go straight to the devil full full [TS]

01:02:13   the DC they they are getting a by large [TS]

01:02:18   well thought of writers and artists to [TS]

01:02:21   do this the end they're not and they're [TS]

01:02:24   trying to take care with it and it's [TS]

01:02:26   kind of nice that they waited whatever [TS]

01:02:28   25 years to do it and give it some room [TS]

01:02:32   to breathe at the same time you know it [TS]

01:02:34   is they own the copyright on it and I [TS]

01:02:37   you know they're they're not making a [TS]

01:02:39   sequel right there they're filling in [TS]

01:02:41   bits of the backstory of these [TS]

01:02:43   characters and such a mystery even if [TS]

01:02:46   they're awful well yeah maybe so but [TS]

01:02:48   even if they're awful [TS]

01:02:49   it doesn't i'll go again say it doesn't [TS]

01:02:51   change the original of a band that's [TS]

01:02:53   proven me wrong on points already [TS]

01:02:56   Lisa you know terrible terrible idea yes [TS]

01:02:59   I i think i think it's a terrible idea [TS]

01:03:01   just because i think that one of the [TS]

01:03:05   reasons watchman works is because the [TS]

01:03:06   characters we know right now all we know [TS]

01:03:09   about them as is what serves the story [TS]

01:03:11   and frankly I don't want to find out [TS]

01:03:14   what makes the comedian tick I don't [TS]

01:03:16   need to know what traumatic event [TS]

01:03:17   happened in his past that makes him a [TS]

01:03:19   completely pragmatic nihilist [TS]

01:03:22   I don't want to know about how hard it [TS]

01:03:24   was for Rorschach to go through junior [TS]

01:03:25   high without ever getting a balance or [TS]

01:03:28   whatever the hell else are going to do [TS]

01:03:30   two attacks to explain that the Kings [TS]

01:03:32   these people systems [TS]

01:03:34   that's how were shocked by this first [TS]

01:03:36   trench coat he walked into brooks [TS]

01:03:40   brothers and they laughed about a star [TS]

01:03:42   up and then he went back instead of on [TS]

01:03:44   fire [TS]

01:03:45   the thing is i don't because when these [TS]

01:03:49   kind of prequel stories happen it's [TS]

01:03:51   typically and there's going to be [TS]

01:03:52   wink-wink nudge-nudge there will be will [TS]

01:03:54   be weird little call back sir or sit [TS]

01:03:56   serendipitous things that that imply [TS]

01:03:58   that these characters pads have always [TS]

01:03:59   been meant to cross because you know [TS]

01:04:01   some writers going to throw that into [TS]

01:04:02   sure think they're clever got it'll be [TS]

01:04:04   annoying to the smiley faces and clocks [TS]

01:04:07   everywhere [TS]

01:04:08   yeah or it's going to be you know driver [TS]

01:04:12   walks down the street and accidentally [TS]

01:04:14   bumps Rorschach in the shoulder and no [TS]

01:04:15   he doesn't realize he hit that we know [TS]

01:04:17   and hey there they're doing a max she [TS]

01:04:20   showing down at the art gallery [TS]

01:04:22   no no I'm not interested in that art [TS]

01:04:23   stuff yeah exactly so it's [TS]

01:04:26   it's gonna be that kind of it's gonna be [TS]

01:04:28   a combination of oh look there in jokes [TS]

01:04:30   to satisfy the fanboys and fangirls and [TS]

01:04:32   we get to find out what maybe skip what [TS]

01:04:35   they are and I don't want to know what [TS]

01:04:36   made them what they are i don't care i [TS]

01:04:38   don't think it's I don't think it will [TS]

01:04:40   serve the original story i don't think [TS]

01:04:41   it will amplify it i don't think it'll [TS]

01:04:43   make it better and I don't think it [TS]

01:04:44   needs to be told [TS]

01:04:45   so you're not even if the shrink-wrap is [TS]

01:04:47   is ripped off you're not gonna look at [TS]

01:04:48   the yeah actually end up regretting it [TS]

01:04:52   every time I've done this in the public [TS]

01:04:53   square where they go back and they [TS]

01:04:55   backfilling stories in secret origins [TS]

01:04:57   and so on and so forth [TS]

01:04:58   no origin is ever as good as well i'm [TS]

01:05:00   going to come up with in my head so I [TS]

01:05:02   just end up regretting again I'm gonna [TS]

01:05:03   spice and I'm going to ignore it pretend [TS]

01:05:05   it didn't exist [TS]

01:05:06   yeah me two chlorines and out now do not [TS]

01:05:10   want exactly [TS]

01:05:11   yeah exactly i was so much happier with [TS]

01:05:14   the star wars universe before I walked [TS]

01:05:15   into Phantom Menace you're going to [TS]

01:05:17   depress bed again it's too late it's too [TS]

01:05:20   late [TS]

01:05:21   most depressing podcast ever had at one [TS]

01:05:24   point I think that before before DC [TS]

01:05:27   allegedly screwed [TS]

01:05:29   alan moore and dave gibbons out of the [TS]

01:05:30   rights to the the characters i think [TS]

01:05:33   there was some talk of them doing a set [TS]

01:05:36   of prequels based on the Minutemen and [TS]

01:05:39   that i think would have worked because [TS]

01:05:41   it would not have been an attempt to you [TS]

01:05:42   know filling back stories and and you [TS]

01:05:46   know could have been kind of an [TS]

01:05:47   independent war and there is a minute [TS]

01:05:48   men prequel mini-series that is one of [TS]

01:05:52   them they're doing i think is that might [TS]

01:05:54   not be horrible because it will is as [TS]

01:05:56   long as they steer clear of too many of [TS]

01:05:57   the QT Association right which ya can be [TS]

01:06:02   i mean i i'm in the same boat as Lisa I [TS]

01:06:04   don't want these back stories filled in [TS]

01:06:05   fact i think one of the reasons that [TS]

01:06:07   watchman works so well for so many [TS]

01:06:09   different people is that more [TS]

01:06:12   deliberately avoided making really over [TS]

01:06:14   moral judgments on the characters and [TS]

01:06:17   and kind of left them a blank slate that [TS]

01:06:20   use the reader could get sort of draw [TS]

01:06:22   your own conclusions with and I think [TS]

01:06:24   the more that you fill in the gaps on [TS]

01:06:26   these characters the less that's going [TS]

01:06:28   to that's going to exist [TS]

01:06:30   yeah I I ice i agree i mean III with Ben [TS]

01:06:33   I I there maybe they may do good work [TS]

01:06:36   these may be good writers and good [TS]

01:06:37   artists and they made in [TS]

01:06:39   be interesting to see their [TS]

01:06:40   interpretations of these characters but [TS]

01:06:41   on the other level one of the ways that [TS]

01:06:44   watchman works is that you fill in the [TS]

01:06:46   gaps and I i don't think people talk [TS]

01:06:48   about that in in fiction enough that [TS]

01:06:50   that even as an audience you have an [TS]

01:06:53   imagination that can go at work and the [TS]

01:06:55   implications these little bits that are [TS]

01:06:57   implied go so far because the creator's [TS]

01:07:01   know that the audience is going to fill [TS]

01:07:02   in the gaps in a way that pleases them [TS]

01:07:04   whereas if they made it specific it it [TS]

01:07:07   would be much more difficult and that's [TS]

01:07:09   why I met I'm ambivalent about the these [TS]

01:07:11   these prequels is that they may be good [TS]

01:07:13   on their own [TS]

01:07:14   I I don't really like necessarily what [TS]

01:07:16   they stand for in terms of playing [TS]

01:07:17   really playing with the memory of the [TS]

01:07:19   thing that I've got in my head which is [TS]

01:07:21   watch men as a stand right and and [TS]

01:07:24   really in comics a very rare thing a [TS]

01:07:26   complete standalone work where these [TS]

01:07:28   characters you read this [TS]

01:07:30   that's it and that's going to be that's [TS]

01:07:33   going to be done well here's the thing [TS]

01:07:34   here's one let me make one last point [TS]

01:07:35   about that [TS]

01:07:36   do we really need to see you know the [TS]

01:07:39   intricate details of how silk spectre [TS]

01:07:42   and her lover or not off and when worse [TS]

01:07:46   than that someone I guarantee you [TS]

01:07:48   they're gonna tell us what happened to [TS]

01:07:51   hooded justice suggests they're gonna [TS]

01:07:53   show Blake killing hooded justice or [TS]

01:07:57   whatever which is one of those great [TS]

01:07:58   mysteries is like right Justice [TS]

01:08:00   disappears [TS]

01:08:00   there's the implication that Blake might [TS]

01:08:02   have been involved but it isn't it is [TS]

01:08:03   just it is just out there and yeah that [TS]

01:08:06   will probably be dealt with literally so [TS]

01:08:09   they couldn't go to the devil is alright [TS]

01:08:12   but Barnes & Noble still in business [TS]

01:08:14   been in the end the shrink-wrap is [TS]

01:08:16   undone you give it appear if this [TS]

01:08:19   elaborate set of conditions is Matt [TS]

01:08:21   that's right the the Spirit is willing [TS]

01:08:24   but the flesh is weak [TS]

01:08:25   you know you gotta take a peek at the [TS]

01:08:27   car crash as long as you're driving by [TS]

01:08:29   you know [TS]

01:08:30   sure [TS]

01:08:31   alright well I think we've I think we've [TS]

01:08:34   kicked the kitchen kicked the movie and [TS]

01:08:37   kick the prequels and talked about about [TS]

01:08:40   this this this book enough for now but [TS]

01:08:42   uh this was great and and I I I don't [TS]

01:08:47   feel like somebody like been destroyed [TS]

01:08:49   my childhood love like like John [TS]

01:08:51   syracuse it with real genius so that's [TS]

01:08:52   good that so that that's good because [TS]

01:08:58   because because I i share some of ben's [TS]

01:09:00   feelings about it whereas John [TS]

01:09:01   Syracuse's just wrong about real genius [TS]

01:09:03   and that's all there is to it since he's [TS]

01:09:05   not here to defend himself that's kinda [TS]

01:09:06   awesome [TS]

01:09:07   no that's the best thing is just you [TS]

01:09:08   know boom there it is [TS]

01:09:10   anyway so so it's been great talking [TS]

01:09:12   watch man it's been great talking comic [TS]

01:09:14   books from the mid-nineteen eighties [TS]

01:09:15   with all of you [TS]

01:09:18   so until until our next episode i would [TS]

01:09:21   like to thank my guests the they are my [TS]

01:09:24   own personal Minutemen steve lets you [TS]

01:09:28   you can be who would you can be uh I [TS]

01:09:31   don't know [TS]

01:09:32   hooded justice III don't know you could [TS]

01:09:34   be good luck i don't think it's gonna [TS]

01:09:37   end well for you Steve lights thank you [TS]

01:09:39   I'm oh I'm okay with that to be honest [TS]

01:09:41   with justice and and and it's been a [TS]

01:09:43   pleasure Jason talking about a work of [TS]

01:09:45   literature with it which I can do in [TS]

01:09:47   this case because it has pictures and [TS]

01:09:48   stuff it has fixes yeah it's nice it's [TS]

01:09:51   like book club [TS]

01:09:52   except with pictures but then Boychuk [TS]

01:09:55   thank you for being here young committee [TS]

01:09:57   in there you are [TS]

01:09:58   and that nothing ever ends except for [TS]

01:10:00   this bottle of wine and i finished just [TS]

01:10:02   a minute excellent it may refill itself [TS]

01:10:05   if dr. Manhattan is listening [TS]

01:10:07   Lisa Schmeisser thanks for being here [TS]

01:10:09   thank you [TS]

01:10:11   this was a lot of fun and thank you for [TS]

01:10:13   not making any oh so inspector I'm gonna [TS]

01:10:16   try know why would I do such horrible [TS]

01:10:18   horrible thing i'll do that when i added [TS]

01:10:20   the podcast later [TS]

01:10:21   ah no no make it a prequel and Tony [TS]

01:10:27   sindelar thanks for coming it was great [TS]

01:10:29   to have you on the podcast again it was [TS]

01:10:31   great to be here [TS]

01:10:32   I'm not trapped on this podcast with you [TS]

01:10:33   you're trapped on it [TS]

01:10:36   he'll finally somebody made a good [TS]

01:10:39   reference that everybody got and and now [TS]

01:10:42   it's just you know pick something out of [TS]

01:10:44   the crank file and run that credit I [TS]

01:10:46   like until next time for the [TS]

01:10:49   uncomfortable and Jason thanks for [TS]

01:10:50   listening [TS]

01:10:58   I guess we've reached the end of this [TS]

01:11:04   podcast then yeah I keep yes hello [TS]

01:11:10   oh I said I guess we've reached the end [TS]

01:11:14   of this podcast I oh not just friends [TS]

01:11:19   control and I'm sorry I've had 16 ounces [TS]

01:11:25   of wine during the course of this [TS]

01:11:27   recording [TS]