The Incomparable

00:00:00 ◼   ► the incomparable podcast number 105 [TS]

00:00:10 ◼   ► September's went well [TS]

00:00:15 ◼   ► welcome back to the uncomfortable [TS]

00:00:16 ◼   ► podcast I'm your host Jason snow and I'm [TS]

00:00:19 ◼   ► convening another edition of our book [TS]

00:00:21 ◼   ► club we are going to be talking about [TS]

00:00:24 ◼   ► trilogy of books by sci-fi writer I [TS]

00:00:28 ◼   ► guess I fine fancy writer John Walton [TS]

00:00:30 ◼   ► who we love [TS]

00:00:31 ◼   ► we recommended her book among others [TS]

00:00:33 ◼   ► extremely highly and and now we're going [TS]

00:00:38 ◼   ► to talk about this trilogy of books set [TS]

00:00:40 ◼   ► in an alternate history universe in the [TS]

00:00:44 ◼   ► aftermath of world war two joining me [TS]

00:00:48 ◼   ► today are the very well-read Scott [TS]

00:00:53 ◼   ► McNulty hi Scott [TS]

00:00:55 ◼   ► hello to a diary it's good to be here [TS]

00:00:58 ◼   ► does it make you feel good that every [TS]

00:00:59 ◼   ► everything you say you know is going to [TS]

00:01:01 ◼   ► cause extra work for that poor guy who's [TS]

00:01:03 ◼   ► trying to make a supercut of everything [TS]

00:01:05 ◼   ► you've ever said on the uncomfortable I [TS]

00:01:08 ◼   ► feel very very sorry for him [TS]

00:01:10 ◼   ► I don't know he volunteered to do it yes [TS]

00:01:12 ◼   ► its own fault you you do your own grave [TS]

00:01:14 ◼   ► mr. yeah exactly right and now that will [TS]

00:01:16 ◼   ► be in there because every time you talk [TS]

00:01:18 ◼   ► it's more work for him just talking on [TS]

00:01:21 ◼   ► also joining us Dan Morgan hi Dan hi [TS]

00:01:24 ◼   ► Jason [TS]

00:01:25 ◼   ► nobody's trying to make a super kind of [TS]

00:01:26 ◼   ► anything I've said and that's probably [TS]

00:01:27 ◼   ► good thought well i would say it would [TS]

00:01:29 ◼   ► take too long [TS]

00:01:30 ◼   ► I mean the whole premise is god is he [TS]

00:01:32 ◼   ► doesn't say very much i like to think [TS]

00:01:34 ◼   ► that if you put all of Scots appearances [TS]

00:01:36 ◼   ► together they actually do create some [TS]

00:01:38 ◼   ► sort of cohesive old that possibly [TS]

00:01:40 ◼   ► causes your brain to melt from the [TS]

00:01:41 ◼   ► inside out [TS]

00:01:42 ◼   ► he's playing a long game is very though [TS]

00:01:44 ◼   ► i have no evidence to prove it now dan [TS]

00:01:47 ◼   ► you've only read two of these books [TS]

00:01:48 ◼   ► correct and a half [TS]

00:01:50 ◼   ► alright so halfway through the third [TS]

00:01:51 ◼   ► book we're going to kick you off I [TS]

00:01:52 ◼   ► thought it was called half-a-crown for a [TS]

00:01:54 ◼   ► reason you've only read a quarter of the [TS]

00:01:56 ◼   ► crown wasn't whole around [TS]

00:01:58 ◼   ► also joining us Glen fleischmann hi [TS]

00:02:00 ◼   ► Glenn I i I've tried whole crowd but [TS]

00:02:03 ◼   ► it's too rich we had to go to [TS]

00:02:04 ◼   ► half-a-crown because no lactose [TS]

00:02:06 ◼   ► intolerant interesting that's a little [TS]

00:02:09 ◼   ► too much information but thank you very [TS]

00:02:11 ◼   ► much [TS]

00:02:11 ◼   ► I'm glad you're with us and you can play [TS]

00:02:12 ◼   ► here and also serenity Caldwell hello [TS]

00:02:16 ◼   ► hello i have read all of the English [TS]

00:02:19 ◼   ► currency books [TS]

00:02:20 ◼   ► well the ones that exist that's good all [TS]

00:02:22 ◼   ► three of the ones that have been [TS]

00:02:24 ◼   ► published anyway we will fire off the [TS]

00:02:26 ◼   ► spoiler horn as we go [TS]

00:02:28 ◼   ► so that you can if you have not read all [TS]

00:02:30 ◼   ► these books and you want a you want to [TS]

00:02:32 ◼   ► tune out at any point will let you will [TS]

00:02:36 ◼   ► will give you some warning but to get [TS]

00:02:39 ◼   ► started maybe before we file off fire [TS]

00:02:42 ◼   ► off the spoiler horn i should i should [TS]

00:02:43 ◼   ► explain the first novel farthing before [TS]

00:02:47 ◼   ► we give away too much about it it starts [TS]

00:02:50 ◼   ► at one of the things I really like about [TS]

00:02:51 ◼   ► this book when I describe this to other [TS]

00:02:53 ◼   ► people is that it it has a great setup [TS]

00:02:57 ◼   ► it starts out as essentially chase you [TS]

00:03:00 ◼   ► know an Agatha Christie novel in a [TS]

00:03:02 ◼   ► slightly alternate universe and I [TS]

00:03:05 ◼   ► thought that was very funny the idea of [TS]

00:03:07 ◼   ► doing an all universe you know a an [TS]

00:03:09 ◼   ► alternate history [TS]

00:03:10 ◼   ► Agatha Christie novel and for a while [TS]

00:03:14 ◼   ► that's what it is and then it suddenly [TS]

00:03:16 ◼   ► is not that anymore but I i thought that [TS]

00:03:18 ◼   ► was a great a great without giving too [TS]

00:03:20 ◼   ► much away until we find out the spoiler [TS]

00:03:22 ◼   ► horn and a nice setup that you you think [TS]

00:03:24 ◼   ► you're reading one book going into it I [TS]

00:03:26 ◼   ► really didn't know what to expect [TS]

00:03:28 ◼   ► you think you're reading one book and it [TS]

00:03:29 ◼   ► turns out that it's all a it's all kind [TS]

00:03:31 ◼   ► of a sham and you're actually reading [TS]

00:03:33 ◼   ► something very different as a as a [TS]

00:03:35 ◼   ► student of the appeasement of Neville [TS]

00:03:39 ◼   ► Chamberlain's incredibly horrible [TS]

00:03:40 ◼   ► attitude and sort of British Anglophilia [TS]

00:03:43 ◼   ► leading up until British actually Leah [TS]

00:03:45 ◼   ► I'm sorry pretty sure that whoever them [TS]

00:03:48 ◼   ► to tana filia excuse me [TS]

00:03:50 ◼   ► yes there are four of those bridge to [TS]

00:03:52 ◼   ► terabithia leading up and into world war [TS]

00:03:54 ◼   ► two even when atrocity started become [TS]

00:03:56 ◼   ► known you know i love these books [TS]

00:03:58 ◼   ► because you know I've always been bitter [TS]

00:04:01 ◼   ► about the British attitude [TS]

00:04:02 ◼   ► no I felt actually felt like these [TS]

00:04:03 ◼   ► actually explored something that's [TS]

00:04:04 ◼   ► critical to the British character beyond [TS]

00:04:05 ◼   ► the science-fiction part of it that you [TS]

00:04:07 ◼   ► you have you know the events described [TS]

00:04:09 ◼   ► you sort of branch off at a certain [TS]

00:04:11 ◼   ► point but you know there are plenty of [TS]

00:04:13 ◼   ► parts of the British public of the [TS]

00:04:15 ◼   ► British aristocracy and royalty [TS]

00:04:18 ◼   ► leadership that we've been perfectly [TS]

00:04:20 ◼   ► happy to deal with Hitler I thought she [TS]

00:04:23 ◼   ► had a great historic graphic basis [TS]

00:04:26 ◼   ► historical basis of where she chose [TS]

00:04:28 ◼   ► these very particular branches it was an [TS]

00:04:30 ◼   ► arbitration make stuff up should have to [TS]

00:04:32 ◼   ► sort of create an alternate history [TS]

00:04:35 ◼   ► years before the point she branched off [TS]

00:04:37 ◼   ► she took a very logical place and [TS]

00:04:39 ◼   ► and it don't know this because i was [TS]

00:04:42 ◼   ► pleased by seeing what the outcome would [TS]

00:04:44 ◼   ► be right because we should say that when [TS]

00:04:45 ◼   ► they win this book starts we're in a [TS]

00:04:47 ◼   ► what we realize we're in an alternate [TS]

00:04:49 ◼   ► history where something has happened in [TS]

00:04:51 ◼   ► World War tues progression has not [TS]

00:04:53 ◼   ► happened at the way that we thought it [TS]

00:04:54 ◼   ► would but the wars are still going on [TS]

00:04:57 ◼   ► that you write history with Eastern [TS]

00:04:59 ◼   ► Front more the Hitler's be able to wage [TS]

00:05:00 ◼   ► because he has been busy on the western [TS]

00:05:02 ◼   ► front either he subjugated all the [TS]

00:05:04 ◼   ► countries always has appeasement with [TS]

00:05:06 ◼   ► England which made sense because germany [TS]

00:05:08 ◼   ► and england the Germans were actually [TS]

00:05:09 ◼   ► sort of considered the the English as at [TS]

00:05:12 ◼   ► least if not inferior you know not [TS]

00:05:14 ◼   ► totally inferior not worthy of being [TS]

00:05:16 ◼   ► necessarily invaded so in fact you know [TS]

00:05:18 ◼   ► the german invasion of attempted [TS]

00:05:20 ◼   ► invasion of England in reality was part [TS]

00:05:22 ◼   ► because it just wouldn't give up you [TS]

00:05:23 ◼   ► know it was it was sort of this year [TS]

00:05:25 ◼   ► bloody-minded we're gonna batter the [TS]

00:05:27 ◼   ► hell out of you because you won't you [TS]

00:05:28 ◼   ► know given to our Teutonic leadership [TS]

00:05:30 ◼   ► well and then the the other thing which [TS]

00:05:33 ◼   ► doesn't really come up as much although [TS]

00:05:34 ◼   ► it's alluded to a couple of times is [TS]

00:05:36 ◼   ► that this is also a war where America [TS]

00:05:39 ◼   ► never got involved right right right [TS]

00:05:40 ◼   ► yeah as I recall and someone correct me [TS]

00:05:43 ◼   ► if I'm wrong [TS]

00:05:44 ◼   ► actually there is sort of a bit of a [TS]

00:05:45 ◼   ► historical narrative change way back [TS]

00:05:48 ◼   ► because isn't it [TS]

00:05:49 ◼   ► America's not involved because America [TS]

00:05:51 ◼   ► got decimated by the great depression [TS]

00:05:53 ◼   ► and never came out of it so there's [TS]

00:05:55 ◼   ► different i don't know i mean Charles [TS]

00:05:58 ◼   ► Lindbergh is the president and yeah [TS]

00:06:01 ◼   ► America [TS]

00:06:02 ◼   ► yeah in America has not yet has remained [TS]

00:06:06 ◼   ► isolationist essentially and that that [TS]

00:06:09 ◼   ► has that is a change and there's some [TS]

00:06:11 ◼   ► changes in the inn in the the Nazi [TS]

00:06:14 ◼   ► government's uh entreaties to the to the [TS]

00:06:16 ◼   ► British and it's unclear exactly what [TS]

00:06:18 ◼   ► the point of divergence is here but [TS]

00:06:20 ◼   ► because i never i recall no mention and [TS]

00:06:22 ◼   ► maybe it comes up towards the end of the [TS]

00:06:24 ◼   ► third book because it said I haven't [TS]

00:06:25 ◼   ► read but never any mention of Pearl [TS]

00:06:27 ◼   ► Harbor which we can we started defining [TS]

00:06:30 ◼   ► event there you lead the the the asian [TS]

00:06:33 ◼   ► front does not really come into it as [TS]

00:06:34 ◼   ► much though I know the Japanese are [TS]

00:06:35 ◼   ► mentioned in the third book i think [TS]

00:06:37 ◼   ► there's nothing the deals America's [TS]

00:06:38 ◼   ► trying to appease Japan because they [TS]

00:06:40 ◼   ► feel like the war in Europe isn't theirs [TS]

00:06:41 ◼   ► is over cool was it Coolidge I mean [TS]

00:06:43 ◼   ► world war one was really where the u.s. [TS]

00:06:45 ◼   ► ended its its isolationist phase and [TS]

00:06:48 ◼   ► then you could see the return to that [TS]

00:06:49 ◼   ► right twenties anyway and you know the [TS]

00:06:51 ◼   ► American didn't want to get involved [TS]

00:06:52 ◼   ► more work to still very reasonable so [TS]

00:06:54 ◼   ► ostensibly with one burgers president [TS]

00:06:56 ◼   ► and we're running the backstories our [TS]

00:06:57 ◼   ► fan fiction versions of far things right [TS]

00:07:00 ◼   ► but the series is asian Lindbergh [TS]

00:07:01 ◼   ► instead of trying to you know portrayed [TS]

00:07:04 ◼   ► the Japanese two minutes the Axis powers [TS]

00:07:06 ◼   ► is that Europe's re basically settled [TS]

00:07:09 ◼   ► with England and Germany deciding their [TS]

00:07:12 ◼   ► positions and russia is being battled so [TS]

00:07:14 ◼   ► America allies itself or the Japanese or [TS]

00:07:18 ◼   ► take care of china and korea and the [TS]

00:07:19 ◼   ► rest of asia right now I just want to [TS]

00:07:21 ◼   ► stay out of it and be left alone of will [TS]

00:07:23 ◼   ► fire off the spoiler horn for the first [TS]

00:07:25 ◼   ► book only now [TS]

00:07:26 ◼   ► [Music] [TS]

00:07:29 ◼   ► guys I think we're about to run into a [TS]

00:07:31 ◼   ► lighthouse just yeah that's right [TS]

00:07:32 ◼   ► there's lots of fog spoilers are in the [TS]

00:07:34 ◼   ► fog it's England it's foggy it's good so [TS]

00:07:39 ◼   ► what ends up happening is that there's [TS]

00:07:41 ◼   ► this uh what we're really watching here [TS]

00:07:44 ◼   ► is a takeover the English government so [TS]

00:07:47 ◼   ► this is a this is all kind of a plot [TS]

00:07:51 ◼   ► there's a murder at the house that we [TS]

00:07:52 ◼   ► think is part of this Agatha Christie [TS]

00:07:54 ◼   ► thing and we have two narrators there [TS]

00:07:56 ◼   ► there's um our Carmichael our police [TS]

00:08:00 ◼   ► investigator who will be the character [TS]

00:08:02 ◼   ► who carries throughout all three books [TS]

00:08:03 ◼   ► and then there is uh oh what's her name [TS]

00:08:08 ◼   ► mrs. Khan Lucy mrs. Khan who is it who [TS]

00:08:11 ◼   ► is an English woman of some-some [TS]

00:08:15 ◼   ► standing some she's from my I think a [TS]

00:08:17 ◼   ► good family but she's she's married a [TS]

00:08:20 ◼   ► Jew and therefore she's destroyed all [TS]

00:08:24 ◼   ► for social standing and what it turns [TS]

00:08:26 ◼   ► out this is really relevant because [TS]

00:08:27 ◼   ► anti-semitism is is on the rise as a [TS]

00:08:30 ◼   ► part of this the fact that they made a [TS]

00:08:32 ◼   ► deal with the Nazi government and uh and [TS]

00:08:36 ◼   ► and that she's at the house when the [TS]

00:08:38 ◼   ► murder happens and Carmichael comes to [TS]

00:08:40 ◼   ► investigate and it turns out that it's [TS]

00:08:42 ◼   ► this actually larger conspiracy and this [TS]

00:08:44 ◼   ► this murder mystery turns into something [TS]

00:08:47 ◼   ► quite horrible which is really a coup [TS]

00:08:49 ◼   ► that and I takeover of the English [TS]

00:08:52 ◼   ► government by by these people who are [TS]

00:08:55 ◼   ► not they are not very nice people you [TS]

00:08:59 ◼   ► know the kind of jerks khan by the way [TS]

00:09:02 ◼   ► con con Edison is no idea her husband is [TS]

00:09:07 ◼   ► this is this nice fellow but everybody [TS]

00:09:09 ◼   ► view some with suspicion just because [TS]

00:09:10 ◼   ► he's Jewish and and her it likewise and [TS]

00:09:15 ◼   ► and there's an interesting scene where [TS]

00:09:17 ◼   ► she goes out riding and there's a their [TS]

00:09:20 ◼   ► shot at and and it seems like this [TS]

00:09:24 ◼   ► bizarre turn and it turns out there's [TS]

00:09:26 ◼   ► that they've like hired a guy to to it [TS]

00:09:31 ◼   ► as part of this cover-up to attack [TS]

00:09:33 ◼   ► people at this at this English manor [TS]

00:09:36 ◼   ► it's just it's a crazy turn of events [TS]

00:09:39 ◼   ► where you realize that you're not you [TS]

00:09:41 ◼   ► know you're not reading the book that [TS]

00:09:42 ◼   ► you thought you were [TS]

00:09:43 ◼   ► yeah that's it again as a student of [TS]

00:09:45 ◼   ► that era British history and say that [TS]

00:09:46 ◼   ► the anti-semitism that she describes was [TS]

00:09:49 ◼   ► pretty thinly veiled and already existed [TS]

00:09:50 ◼   ► there's already that sort of restriction [TS]

00:09:52 ◼   ► as there was the United States the time [TS]

00:09:54 ◼   ► it was all you know sort of under the [TS]

00:09:56 ◼   ► surface so she's tapping into that [TS]

00:09:57 ◼   ► notion that instead of that becoming [TS]

00:09:59 ◼   ► less acceptable that you know the plight [TS]

00:10:02 ◼   ► of Jews in Europe the entry into world [TS]

00:10:04 ◼   ► war two and then like progressive [TS]

00:10:05 ◼   ► post-war changes in English and you know [TS]

00:10:09 ◼   ► a lot of above the developed world would [TS]

00:10:11 ◼   ► make a semitism less less acceptable [TS]

00:10:13 ◼   ► it's like no no are good man our good [TS]

00:10:16 ◼   ► friend Hitler he's taking care of all [TS]

00:10:17 ◼   ► those lousy havoc people and those lazy [TS]

00:10:20 ◼   ► Dutch and whatever he's take care of the [TS]

00:10:22 ◼   ► Europe well we'll have things well in [TS]

00:10:24 ◼   ► hand England including with are Jews [TS]

00:10:26 ◼   ► yeah and it's and it's really i mean [TS]

00:10:29 ◼   ► it's really horrifying what I've been [TS]

00:10:31 ◼   ► saying to people is it starts out like [TS]

00:10:33 ◼   ► Agatha Christie novel and then you [TS]

00:10:34 ◼   ► realize it's actually more like 1984 [TS]

00:10:36 ◼   ► because really what you end up with is [TS]

00:10:38 ◼   ► this takeover of English government [TS]

00:10:40 ◼   ► through this assassination that happens [TS]

00:10:42 ◼   ► and the farthing set this with this [TS]

00:10:44 ◼   ► group of people who were who were key to [TS]

00:10:46 ◼   ► the deal with Hitler that's cut that [TS]

00:10:48 ◼   ► keeps the English it from being invaded [TS]

00:10:52 ◼   ► and instead makes them allies of of the [TS]

00:10:54 ◼   ► Germans leads to uh you know they you [TS]

00:10:59 ◼   ► can see that it's going to start [TS]

00:11:00 ◼   ► happening the rounding up the roundup of [TS]

00:11:02 ◼   ► the Jews and and because Lucy and her [TS]

00:11:06 ◼   ► husband because she married a Jewish man [TS]

00:11:09 ◼   ► David Kahn who have you know very nice [TS]

00:11:11 ◼   ► smart man in the end up having to try [TS]

00:11:13 ◼   ► and and escape the country because [TS]

00:11:15 ◼   ► they're going to be you know they're [TS]

00:11:19 ◼   ► going to actually he gets framed for [TS]

00:11:20 ◼   ► this murder because the whole idea here [TS]

00:11:22 ◼   ► is to set this up as a Jewish conspiracy [TS]

00:11:24 ◼   ► when in fact they're killing this guy [TS]

00:11:25 ◼   ► because he was against these sort of [TS]

00:11:29 ◼   ► these anti-semitic policies and was [TS]

00:11:32 ◼   ► going to be to have enough power to [TS]

00:11:34 ◼   ► maybe change the course of events and so [TS]

00:11:36 ◼   ► they they killed him so that they could [TS]

00:11:37 ◼   ► take a takeover and the got this guy who [TS]

00:11:39 ◼   ► you meet early on mark Normandy Normanby [TS]

00:11:41 ◼   ► who you view as being this kind of scary [TS]

00:11:45 ◼   ► kind of awful person and and maybe he [TS]

00:11:48 ◼   ► actually did it [TS]

00:11:49 ◼   ► and in the end the result is not just [TS]

00:11:51 ◼   ► that he did it that the result is that [TS]

00:11:52 ◼   ► he's the Prime Minister [TS]

00:11:54 ◼   ► wouldn't be profit tremendously oh my [TS]

00:11:57 ◼   ► god this was only a little bit yeah I [TS]

00:11:59 ◼   ► had a little bit of an undercut with [TS]

00:12:01 ◼   ► this book in that I was missing formed [TS]

00:12:03 ◼   ► as you which was the first book in the [TS]

00:12:05 ◼   ► series on Halfpenny first so I already [TS]

00:12:10 ◼   ► knew everything happened in front of [TS]

00:12:13 ◼   ► that makes it a little less effective it [TS]

00:12:14 ◼   ► does yeah it does it does take a little [TS]

00:12:17 ◼   ► bit of thunder there's still a lot to [TS]

00:12:18 ◼   ► like in the first book i think even with [TS]

00:12:20 ◼   ► that you know sort of seeing how things [TS]

00:12:22 ◼   ► were put together we'd like a prequel I [TS]

00:12:26 ◼   ► mean you do except the industry where [TS]

00:12:28 ◼   ► you've been doing has been spoiled for [TS]

00:12:29 ◼   ► you haha like you know who murdered the [TS]

00:12:33 ◼   ► person and felt like well alright I [TS]

00:12:35 ◼   ► don't need to worry about that the [TS]

00:12:36 ◼   ► murder plot is still at mega through [TS]

00:12:38 ◼   ► Agatha Christie plot in the sense that [TS]

00:12:39 ◼   ► there are red herrings and you're trying [TS]

00:12:40 ◼   ► to figure out what the the mechanics are [TS]

00:12:42 ◼   ► of how they died in what and who exactly [TS]

00:12:44 ◼   ► was involved but it turns out that it's [TS]

00:12:47 ◼   ► not really that important of the [TS]

00:12:49 ◼   ► mechanics of it was one of the police [TS]

00:12:51 ◼   ► aren't going to be allowed even though [TS]

00:12:52 ◼   ► our detective Carmichael figures it out [TS]

00:12:56 ◼   ► he does figure it all out he can't [TS]

00:12:58 ◼   ► actually do anything about it because [TS]

00:12:59 ◼   ► they've decided to frame David Kahn so I [TS]

00:13:03 ◼   ► said on that level it doesn't matter and [TS]

00:13:05 ◼   ► then it also doesn't matter because [TS]

00:13:06 ◼   ► there's this whole bigger issue which is [TS]

00:13:08 ◼   ► that Normandy is going to be Prime [TS]

00:13:09 ◼   ► Minister and that's really bad but uh [TS]

00:13:12 ◼   ► but that's the whole idea is that 30 the [TS]

00:13:14 ◼   ► guy who gets killed is is actually [TS]

00:13:16 ◼   ► somebody who could stand up to them and [TS]

00:13:18 ◼   ► they're eliminating all possibility for [TS]

00:13:20 ◼   ► for opposition in this takeover of the [TS]

00:13:24 ◼   ► of the British government with these [TS]

00:13:26 ◼   ► fascists basically reminds one of V is [TS]

00:13:28 ◼   ► for Ventura v for vendetta already has [TS]

00:13:30 ◼   ► no no I mean straight it although less I [TS]

00:13:33 ◼   ► mean you're a different end of the lens [TS]

00:13:34 ◼   ► be installed that thing it's like the [TS]

00:13:35 ◼   ► government's moved to a totalitarian [TS]

00:13:37 ◼   ► state [TS]

00:13:38 ◼   ► yeah and it's chilling there's a novel [TS]

00:13:40 ◼   ► called one that for the life of me I [TS]

00:13:42 ◼   ► read this a few years ago and i cannot [TS]

00:13:44 ◼   ► it's impossible to find on google search [TS]

00:13:46 ◼   ► for novel called one there's no way to [TS]

00:13:48 ◼   ► find I cannot recall the afternoon maybe [TS]

00:13:50 ◼   ► someone will and it's this incredibly [TS]

00:13:52 ◼   ► it's like 1984 it's like this in the [TS]

00:13:54 ◼   ► sense that it's it's there's the analogy [TS]

00:13:57 ◼   ► of shifting to a totalitarian state that [TS]

00:13:59 ◼   ► happens sort of so subtly and so many [TS]

00:14:02 ◼   ► incremental steps that you don't exactly [TS]

00:14:04 ◼   ► notice that yes the boiling the Frog [TS]

00:14:06 ◼   ► slowly thing [TS]

00:14:07 ◼   ► and I felt like one takes that to an [TS]

00:14:09 ◼   ► extreme where the state is absolutely a [TS]

00:14:12 ◼   ► totalitarian people live their lives [TS]

00:14:13 ◼   ► more or less until they get caught up in [TS]

00:14:15 ◼   ► the apparatus when they fall off I'll [TS]

00:14:17 ◼   ► even accidentally and that's this one is [TS]

00:14:19 ◼   ► much more starkly painted but it's it's [TS]

00:14:22 ◼   ► the ordinariness of it when you're like [TS]

00:14:24 ◼   ► you know off the country estate and [TS]

00:14:26 ◼   ► they're kind of imaginations and then [TS]

00:14:27 ◼   ► it's an excuse it's the it's the horse [TS]

00:14:29 ◼   ► vessel thing it's the burning of the [TS]

00:14:30 ◼   ► Reichstag they keep talking about it [TS]

00:14:32 ◼   ► it's the the martyr that's the excuse to [TS]

00:14:34 ◼   ► then implement martial law and clamp [TS]

00:14:37 ◼   ► down and make everything much much much [TS]

00:14:39 ◼   ► worse thing that got to me was it we [TS]

00:14:40 ◼   ► reminded me a bit of there's an [TS]

00:14:43 ◼   ► interview with Ray Bradbury in one of [TS]

00:14:45 ◼   ► the issue editions of fahrenheit 451 [TS]

00:14:48 ◼   ► that came out mid two thousand or so and [TS]

00:14:52 ◼   ► what's fascinating about that interview [TS]

00:14:54 ◼   ► was always that you know people are [TS]

00:14:56 ◼   ► saying to him also you know it's a book [TS]

00:14:58 ◼   ► about censorship right mrs. well not [TS]

00:15:00 ◼   ► exactly because the people in fahrenheit [TS]

00:15:02 ◼   ► 451 sort of asked for the password [TS]

00:15:05 ◼   ► soporific effects of you know being you [TS]

00:15:10 ◼   ► know inoculated via television etc etc [TS]

00:15:12 ◼   ► and it strikes me is that this is sort [TS]

00:15:14 ◼   ► of a similar approach to a certain [TS]

00:15:15 ◼   ► extent in that you have all these people [TS]

00:15:18 ◼   ► who seem to be very into like you know [TS]

00:15:20 ◼   ► hating the Jews already so there's never [TS]

00:15:23 ◼   ► like oh great this is just what we're [TS]

00:15:25 ◼   ► looking for this sort of indicates our [TS]

00:15:26 ◼   ► entire philosophy and that's an [TS]

00:15:29 ◼   ► interesting approach to that because it [TS]

00:15:32 ◼   ► shows that you know well obviously the [TS]

00:15:35 ◼   ► same thing has to happen in Germany to a [TS]

00:15:37 ◼   ► certain extent right is the you know [TS]

00:15:40 ◼   ► despite how charismatic Hitler's and how [TS]

00:15:41 ◼   ► he comes to power there's a certain [TS]

00:15:43 ◼   ► amount of complicity coming from the pot [TS]

00:15:44 ◼   ► general populace who are not fighting [TS]

00:15:46 ◼   ► back against that and that seems to be [TS]

00:15:48 ◼   ► very much what's happening in England [TS]

00:15:50 ◼   ► too and in fact is you know we go along [TS]

00:15:52 ◼   ► and further books has become like people [TS]

00:15:53 ◼   ► were there not like harsh enough that [TS]

00:15:56 ◼   ► was a great line in later book which is [TS]

00:15:58 ◼   ► not exactly spoil where spoiler [TS]

00:15:59 ◼   ► precisely when someone says oh I hear [TS]

00:16:02 ◼   ► you're a fascist the person chuckles and [TS]

00:16:04 ◼   ► says well I'd like to be or something [TS]

00:16:06 ◼   ► like that yeah well you need a treat [TS]

00:16:08 ◼   ► fascism very positively and it's hard to [TS]

00:16:09 ◼   ► think of that is like a its soul is such [TS]

00:16:12 ◼   ► a loaded term from our point of view [TS]

00:16:14 ◼   ► given our history it's weird to see it [TS]

00:16:17 ◼   ► in a context where it's not considered [TS]

00:16:19 ◼   ► like an insult [TS]

00:16:21 ◼   ► aight because if you call someone a [TS]

00:16:23 ◼   ► fascist today there are very few people [TS]

00:16:25 ◼   ► who would take that as a compliment [TS]

00:16:27 ◼   ► now in the third book there's there's [TS]

00:16:28 ◼   ► also that line that is that is a fashion [TS]

00:16:31 ◼   ► that sounds like fun action was a good [TS]

00:16:34 ◼   ► bit of fun yeah one of the things that [TS]

00:16:35 ◼   ► is true in this book as well as the [TS]

00:16:37 ◼   ► other two books in the series is that we [TS]

00:16:38 ◼   ► alternate between the view of carmichael [TS]

00:16:40 ◼   ► RR policeman who's investigating this [TS]

00:16:43 ◼   ► crime and in all three books there there [TS]

00:16:46 ◼   ► is a young woman who is fairly innocent [TS]

00:16:51 ◼   ► and brought up to believe sort of in the [TS]

00:16:53 ◼   ► base beliefs of English society in this [TS]

00:16:57 ◼   ► world and then has her beliefs [TS]

00:16:59 ◼   ► challenged in some way and that happens [TS]

00:17:02 ◼   ► in all three of these books but in this [TS]

00:17:04 ◼   ► case you know we've got we've got the [TS]

00:17:06 ◼   ► example of Lucy where she's uh she's her [TS]

00:17:10 ◼   ► through her marriage she's caused this [TS]

00:17:12 ◼   ► the this kind of an issue and you think [TS]

00:17:14 ◼   ► well good for her that she went ahead [TS]

00:17:16 ◼   ► and has a mixed marriage even though the [TS]

00:17:18 ◼   ► the snooty English people don't like it [TS]

00:17:21 ◼   ► but then you realize that we're entering [TS]

00:17:22 ◼   ► into an England where anti-semitism is [TS]

00:17:25 ◼   ► going to run rampant and it's actually a [TS]

00:17:26 ◼   ► much bigger problem for her but she [TS]

00:17:28 ◼   ► still got a lot of these these attitudes [TS]

00:17:31 ◼   ► that of end and you can see her kind of [TS]

00:17:34 ◼   ► fighting as she realizes what is [TS]

00:17:36 ◼   ► actually happening in her country as it [TS]

00:17:39 ◼   ► goes which I really like because you do [TS]

00:17:40 ◼   ► you see it you see that long slide and [TS]

00:17:43 ◼   ► it's not you know it's not any server [TS]

00:17:45 ◼   ► twisting mustaches of evil people write [TS]

00:17:47 ◼   ► it this progression [TS]

00:17:49 ◼   ► it's just one small move after another [TS]

00:17:51 ◼   ► like you said it's like boiling the [TS]

00:17:52 ◼   ► water with the frog in it it's one small [TS]

00:17:54 ◼   ► move after another that inevitably leads [TS]

00:17:57 ◼   ► to this terrible result it's horribly [TS]

00:18:00 ◼   ► possible [TS]

00:18:00 ◼   ► that's what makes them battling and i [TS]

00:18:02 ◼   ► think im gonna listen a spoiler i think [TS]

00:18:04 ◼   ► as the books progress as you get further [TS]

00:18:06 ◼   ► from the branch we can talk about that [TS]

00:18:08 ◼   ► but i think especially in this first [TS]

00:18:10 ◼   ► book and and someone in the second it's [TS]

00:18:13 ◼   ► it's which takes place in a not too [TS]

00:18:15 ◼   ► distant period of time from the first so [TS]

00:18:18 ◼   ► right on the cusp actually uh you you [TS]

00:18:21 ◼   ► get the sense of something that is so I [TS]

00:18:23 ◼   ► had a reading it actually be upset like [TS]

00:18:26 ◼   ► watching the election coverage and so [TS]

00:18:27 ◼   ► forth because it was hard to read the [TS]

00:18:30 ◼   ► three of them actually quite rapid [TS]

00:18:32 ◼   ► the one after the other three books and [TS]

00:18:33 ◼   ► I had to keep reminding myself that this [TS]

00:18:35 ◼   ► wasn't actually the reality I was facing [TS]

00:18:37 ◼   ► even though it's sort of a time's your [TS]

00:18:39 ◼   ► rhetoric that made you think you might [TS]

00:18:40 ◼   ► be I i wonder how what how everybody [TS]

00:18:42 ◼   ► reacted to reading this book i was [TS]

00:18:44 ◼   ► really affected by it and to the point [TS]

00:18:47 ◼   ► where I didn't read the second book [TS]

00:18:48 ◼   ► right away even know why I really [TS]

00:18:50 ◼   ► enjoyed this book and it was one of [TS]

00:18:52 ◼   ► those that is the second Joe wall novel [TS]

00:18:54 ◼   ► that I read I thought okay she's great [TS]

00:18:55 ◼   ► i'll read anything that she writes [TS]

00:18:57 ◼   ► because she's she's great and I will [TS]

00:18:58 ◼   ► even if it's a book about dragons [TS]

00:19:00 ◼   ► wearing hats i will read it it's [TS]

00:19:02 ◼   ► strangely enough she has that book right [TS]

00:19:04 ◼   ► Scott she does i'm reading right now [TS]

00:19:06 ◼   ► saying dragons wearing hats what's that [TS]

00:19:08 ◼   ► we see the spoiler alert i'm sorry too [TS]

00:19:11 ◼   ► thin cloth that's right that's the big [TS]

00:19:12 ◼   ► thing is that the turns out there's a [TS]

00:19:14 ◼   ► dragon with a hat [TS]

00:19:15 ◼   ► exactly I to think Laura had with a [TS]

00:19:18 ◼   ► dragon underneath it [TS]

00:19:19 ◼   ► ah i just i spent like the next week [TS]

00:19:22 ◼   ► thinking about this book and in a [TS]

00:19:24 ◼   ► because it is it ends so darkly that the [TS]

00:19:28 ◼   ► this is not a happy ending in any [TS]

00:19:31 ◼   ► stretch of the imagination [TS]

00:19:32 ◼   ► Britain is sliding into into [TS]

00:19:35 ◼   ► totalitarianism and the the Jews are [TS]

00:19:38 ◼   ► being persecuted and it's just it's just [TS]

00:19:41 ◼   ► awful and as somebody who in addition to [TS]

00:19:44 ◼   ► generally being against totalitarianism [TS]

00:19:46 ◼   ► and fascism is also in it is also [TS]

00:19:50 ◼   ► married to shut somebody who's Jewish I [TS]

00:19:52 ◼   ► i did deeply extra extra disturbing and [TS]

00:19:57 ◼   ► and I couldn't move to book two because [TS]

00:19:59 ◼   ► i was a just it was very effective in [TS]

00:20:02 ◼   ► making you think what if it were you in [TS]

00:20:04 ◼   ► a way that then I think I said on a [TS]

00:20:06 ◼   ► previous podcast of what we're talking [TS]

00:20:08 ◼   ► about [TS]

00:20:09 ◼   ► Paolo Bacigalupi right that one of his [TS]

00:20:12 ◼   ► tricks was that he does just enough to [TS]

00:20:15 ◼   ► put you in the mind that it's you in [TS]

00:20:18 ◼   ► that terrible situation he says you know [TS]

00:20:20 ◼   ► he does those tricks where he make sure [TS]

00:20:22 ◼   ► that they're like blonde the refugees [TS]

00:20:25 ◼   ► who have no money in her and are are are [TS]

00:20:27 ◼   ► fighting each other make sure that [TS]

00:20:30 ◼   ► they're blonde and red headed and things [TS]

00:20:31 ◼   ► like that he says that it's like you [TS]

00:20:33 ◼   ► can't just say a rich white Americans [TS]

00:20:36 ◼   ► you can't just say this is something [TS]

00:20:37 ◼   ► that happens to other people somewhere [TS]

00:20:38 ◼   ► else in the world who don't look like me [TS]

00:20:39 ◼   ► and Joe Walton does that too in this [TS]

00:20:41 ◼   ► book I feel like as I'm going through it [TS]

00:20:43 ◼   ► because it's set in England I have such [TS]

00:20:45 ◼   ► an affinity [TS]

00:20:45 ◼   ► 44 England and they you know they speak [TS]

00:20:48 ◼   ► our language and their us right and you [TS]

00:20:50 ◼   ► see this happening and it makes it that [TS]

00:20:51 ◼   ► much more effective so I was really I [TS]

00:20:53 ◼   ► was really affected by it i wonder what [TS]

00:20:56 ◼   ► you guys felt just got to remember that [TS]

00:20:58 ◼   ► far back [TS]

00:20:59 ◼   ► let me think well I was I was I didn't [TS]

00:21:02 ◼   ► read them all in rapid succession but I [TS]

00:21:03 ◼   ► was quite hit by the the tragedy that is [TS]

00:21:07 ◼   ► the character of carmichael even the [TS]

00:21:09 ◼   ► first blow yeah I mean it's the ending [TS]

00:21:11 ◼   ► it'sit's he's just trying to do the [TS]

00:21:13 ◼   ► right thing and the and he is he [TS]

00:21:16 ◼   ► believes in the system for most of the [TS]

00:21:17 ◼   ► book and he just wants to you know solve [TS]

00:21:20 ◼   ► this crime and he does solve it then he [TS]

00:21:22 ◼   ► is not allowed to actually bring justice [TS]

00:21:25 ◼   ► to the the situation and and they use a [TS]

00:21:30 ◼   ► his personal life against him and [TS]

00:21:32 ◼   ► threaten him so that he has to do that [TS]

00:21:35 ◼   ► you know the thing that he doesn't want [TS]

00:21:36 ◼   ► to do it all and just sit idly by and it [TS]

00:21:39 ◼   ► only gets worse for him in the next book [TS]

00:21:40 ◼   ► so we should say that not only is our 11 [TS]

00:21:44 ◼   ► protagonist I'm in this situation where [TS]

00:21:46 ◼   ► she's married a Jewish man and this is [TS]

00:21:47 ◼   ► Kai a huge compromise because what's [TS]

00:21:49 ◼   ► happening in the country but our other [TS]

00:21:51 ◼   ► protagonist the the cop who just wants [TS]

00:21:53 ◼   ► to solve the crime [TS]

00:21:54 ◼   ► it turns out he's gay and he that is [TS]

00:21:57 ◼   ► used that is used against him to make [TS]

00:21:59 ◼   ► not only is he not allowed to solve the [TS]

00:22:01 ◼   ► crime but he basically gets a promotion [TS]

00:22:02 ◼   ► to be under the thumb of the evil prime [TS]

00:22:06 ◼   ► minister and with this blackmail he [TS]

00:22:09 ◼   ► cannot be kind of can't get out of it [TS]

00:22:12 ◼   ► souls unitarian mind that at this period [TS]

00:22:14 ◼   ► that's illegal aliens you engravers yes [TS]

00:22:18 ◼   ► and it's not really becoming a more [TS]

00:22:19 ◼   ► liberal society you know the opposite [TS]

00:22:22 ◼   ► direction [TS]

00:22:23 ◼   ► well I mean and you know that that part [TS]

00:22:25 ◼   ► does not really diverge from the [TS]

00:22:26 ◼   ► historical precedent to say it was [TS]

00:22:28 ◼   ► illegal [TS]

00:22:28 ◼   ► yeah how long you remember Alan Alan [TS]

00:22:30 ◼   ► Alan himself because of what he had to [TS]

00:22:32 ◼   ► face and yeah it's uh it's is also the [TS]

00:22:36 ◼   ► the residence there's two is that you [TS]

00:22:37 ◼   ► know they're Jews lived in Berlin during [TS]

00:22:39 ◼   ► World War Two not that many of them [TS]

00:22:42 ◼   ► there under the protection of a powerful [TS]

00:22:43 ◼   ► Nazis who like those performers there's [TS]

00:22:45 ◼   ► a fiction they were told it can play [TS]

00:22:47 ◼   ► been converted in whatever and they [TS]

00:22:48 ◼   ► ordered the same thing it's like they [TS]

00:22:50 ◼   ► took a total ought to do exactly what [TS]

00:22:51 ◼   ► their master sponsors said they will be [TS]

00:22:54 ◼   ► sent off the concentration camp so it's [TS]

00:22:56 ◼   ► not that [TS]

00:22:56 ◼   ► you have these sort of token you know [TS]

00:22:58 ◼   ► closeted homosexuals in England during [TS]

00:23:00 ◼   ► this period would otherwise be sent off [TS]

00:23:02 ◼   ► to camps on the continent in this book [TS]

00:23:04 ◼   ► where they shipped off all the people [TS]

00:23:06 ◼   ► they want to get rid of the gym you know [TS]

00:23:07 ◼   ► that the Jews who have papers or [TS]

00:23:09 ◼   ► whatever it's not that weird that you'd [TS]

00:23:11 ◼   ► have people under the thumb that was [TS]

00:23:13 ◼   ► what Hoover you know did in this country [TS]

00:23:15 ◼   ► i well it's all about leverage right [TS]

00:23:17 ◼   ► like they've all got they've got [TS]

00:23:18 ◼   ► leverage over him and he's useful and [TS]

00:23:20 ◼   ► can be controlled as opposed to someone [TS]

00:23:23 ◼   ► else you put in the same situation who [TS]

00:23:24 ◼   ► might not have that right [TS]

00:23:26 ◼   ► all I know is you got to be really [TS]

00:23:26 ◼   ► careful that what kind of tea drinking [TS]

00:23:28 ◼   ► this book apparently uh huh yeah it [TS]

00:23:30 ◼   ► turns out Carmichael city gives you've [TS]

00:23:32 ◼   ► given everything away been in china tea [TS]

00:23:34 ◼   ► your cable yet it's a is outrageous [TS]

00:23:37 ◼   ► your tea sir ren what had you end up [TS]

00:23:40 ◼   ► feeling after you read this book I was [TS]

00:23:43 ◼   ► feeling very very disturbed after [TS]

00:23:45 ◼   ► reading the end of the first because the [TS]

00:23:47 ◼   ► first really does kind of build up in [TS]

00:23:49 ◼   ► the last couple chapters yeah she breaks [TS]

00:23:52 ◼   ► down the hammer yeah yeah yeah well i [TS]

00:23:54 ◼   ► mean it's it's at the point where that [TS]

00:23:56 ◼   ► you know Lucy Khan and her husband have [TS]

00:23:59 ◼   ► to basically go on the run and think [TS]

00:24:01 ◼   ► like criminals to get out of the country [TS]

00:24:03 ◼   ► and I you kind of really hits home for [TS]

00:24:07 ◼   ► his picture is everywhere as this killer [TS]

00:24:10 ◼   ► and he didn't do it and yeah and and [TS]

00:24:13 ◼   ► they have to they have to hide and [TS]

00:24:14 ◼   ► change their appearance and try to flee [TS]

00:24:16 ◼   ► because they are being set up and its [TS]

00:24:19 ◼   ► really yeah it's really tough it's a [TS]

00:24:21 ◼   ► dark ending [TS]

00:24:23 ◼   ► yeah and boy was it lucky that you know [TS]

00:24:25 ◼   ► her governess ends up being somebody who [TS]

00:24:28 ◼   ► can go very conveniently shit people out [TS]

00:24:30 ◼   ► of the country future Canada but I I'm i [TS]

00:24:34 ◼   ► finished farthing and then almost [TS]

00:24:37 ◼   ► immediately downloaded the second book [TS]

00:24:39 ◼   ► and started reading like I ate it was [TS]

00:24:43 ◼   ► really strange because i didn't know [TS]

00:24:45 ◼   ► from the progression I didn't actually [TS]

00:24:47 ◼   ► know that it would be a different main [TS]

00:24:49 ◼   ► character I and the way the format was [TS]

00:24:52 ◼   ► the books were going to change as as we [TS]

00:24:55 ◼   ► move from book 12 book to write I don't [TS]

00:24:57 ◼   ► have expected to see Luci and can happen [TS]

00:25:00 ◼   ► but exactly i was like oh well you know [TS]

00:25:02 ◼   ► I want to know what happens to them and [TS]

00:25:04 ◼   ► they're like four or [TS]

00:25:05 ◼   ► Ben Canadian French children but yeah [TS]

00:25:09 ◼   ► there [TS]

00:25:10 ◼   ► well that's the that's the interesting [TS]

00:25:11 ◼   ► thing I find about her writing style for [TS]

00:25:14 ◼   ► these books in general is it's a it's [TS]

00:25:17 ◼   ► very intriguing to me that she chose the [TS]

00:25:19 ◼   ► first person for loose for all three of [TS]

00:25:22 ◼   ► her female narrators and there's a [TS]

00:25:24 ◼   ► female narrator in each one of the books [TS]

00:25:26 ◼   ► yes but they're different narrators [TS]

00:25:28 ◼   ► right but all young young women who are [TS]

00:25:30 ◼   ► very fit into the culture and yet and [TS]

00:25:33 ◼   ► then have a disillusioning moment and [TS]

00:25:35 ◼   ► those are all first person and [TS]

00:25:36 ◼   ► Carmichael is not first person each one [TS]

00:25:38 ◼   ► of them chooses a very specific way to [TS]

00:25:41 ◼   ► react to the solution but i might [TS]

00:25:44 ◼   ► interesting [TS]

00:25:44 ◼   ► yeah I but it's interesting that [TS]

00:25:48 ◼   ► Carmichael to me always stays you know [TS]

00:25:52 ◼   ► distant to a certain extent even when in [TS]

00:25:55 ◼   ► the third book we get you know a lot [TS]

00:25:56 ◼   ► more of his personal history and [TS]

00:25:58 ◼   ► personal past it's this it's a weird [TS]

00:26:02 ◼   ► sort of screen because even though he's [TS]

00:26:04 ◼   ► technically are you know he's our link [TS]

00:26:07 ◼   ► protagonist he's in all three of the [TS]

00:26:09 ◼   ► books I didn't feel like I knew him the [TS]

00:26:11 ◼   ► best until two thirds of the way through [TS]

00:26:14 ◼   ► the 3rd book at which point sort of [TS]

00:26:15 ◼   ► clicked with me like this is this whole [TS]

00:26:18 ◼   ► thing is Carmichael story and the you [TS]

00:26:21 ◼   ► know the first person protagonists are [TS]

00:26:22 ◼   ► just there to basically provide color [TS]

00:26:24 ◼   ► which you don't really connect ok we're [TS]

00:26:27 ◼   ► going we're going to fire up the spoiler [TS]

00:26:29 ◼   ► horn right here for the second book [TS]

00:26:31 ◼   ► I really loved him that I just thought I [TS]

00:26:33 ◼   ► something about about the way the [TS]

00:26:36 ◼   ► characters written i just i really [TS]

00:26:37 ◼   ► enjoyed his point of view and his agony [TS]

00:26:41 ◼   ► and and what he was trying to do to be [TS]

00:26:42 ◼   ► right and is there a little breaking bad [TS]

00:26:45 ◼   ► in this to where it's like well you know [TS]

00:26:47 ◼   ► I could be the head of Secret Service [TS]

00:26:49 ◼   ► and I'm gonna kill people and torture [TS]

00:26:51 ◼   ► them and set of torture procedures and [TS]

00:26:53 ◼   ► be all dick cheney and the end of the [TS]

00:26:56 ◼   ► first book is basically he gets building [TS]

00:26:58 ◼   ► a good man and go back and forget all [TS]

00:27:00 ◼   ► this nonsense yes which is which to me [TS]

00:27:03 ◼   ► is a very affecting part of that which [TS]

00:27:05 ◼   ► is the fact that he's basically so I [TS]

00:27:08 ◼   ► mean the key thing is he tells Lucy to [TS]

00:27:12 ◼   ► run right i mean not explicitly but he [TS]

00:27:14 ◼   ► basically lets her know that they're [TS]

00:27:16 ◼   ► coming to arrest until he calls he calls [TS]

00:27:19 ◼   ► the house [TS]

00:27:20 ◼   ► Ryan called her and says we're gonna [TS]

00:27:22 ◼   ► come and get you exactly [TS]

00:27:23 ◼   ► don't don't flee or anything exactly [TS]

00:27:26 ◼   ► don't don't run away to canada weighing [TS]

00:27:28 ◼   ► come over and that was for me the point [TS]

00:27:29 ◼   ► where i really started to like Lucy [TS]

00:27:32 ◼   ► because for the beginning of the book [TS]

00:27:34 ◼   ► she's very she's and you know I think [TS]

00:27:37 ◼   ► this was clearly intentional but she's [TS]

00:27:39 ◼   ► so fluttery and so like you know clearly [TS]

00:27:44 ◼   ► she thinks about the issues but she's [TS]

00:27:45 ◼   ► always sort of talking yourself down and [TS]

00:27:47 ◼   ► things like that it's just i found her a [TS]

00:27:48 ◼   ► little bit more annoying at that but [TS]

00:27:50 ◼   ► she's you know with the whole i love [TS]

00:27:51 ◼   ► that scene my favorite thing in the [TS]

00:27:52 ◼   ► entire book might be the scene where she [TS]

00:27:54 ◼   ► realizes they have to run so she goes up [TS]

00:27:56 ◼   ► and she's thinking very practically [TS]

00:27:57 ◼   ► about anything she steals a bunch of [TS]

00:27:59 ◼   ► stuff from her mom that you can hock [TS]

00:28:00 ◼   ► later for money and she just does it [TS]

00:28:02 ◼   ► right like she was like I don't even [TS]

00:28:03 ◼   ► think about it I just when did this [TS]

00:28:05 ◼   ► thing like all right here we go now I'm [TS]

00:28:06 ◼   ► starting to identify should take some [TS]

00:28:08 ◼   ► pressure this precious diamond that has [TS]

00:28:10 ◼   ► been getting notifications accidentally [TS]

00:28:12 ◼   ► takes this huge diamond it's the pearl [TS]

00:28:14 ◼   ► of india and then you end up with the [TS]

00:28:16 ◼   ► scene with with Carmichael III also [TS]

00:28:19 ◼   ► quite liked but where he essentially [TS]

00:28:21 ◼   ► gets betrayed right by his sidekick Tom [TS]

00:28:25 ◼   ► and you know and one of the things that [TS]

00:28:29 ◼   ► sort of harder to get especially if you [TS]

00:28:31 ◼   ► read the second book first is why not [TS]

00:28:33 ◼   ► going to continue to what you getting at [TS]

00:28:35 ◼   ► though [TS]

00:28:35 ◼   ► well why would you you know like why [TS]

00:28:37 ◼   ► would you continue to work with this guy [TS]

00:28:38 ◼   ► great he doesn't necessarily have a [TS]

00:28:40 ◼   ► choice in the matter but also he sort of [TS]

00:28:41 ◼   ► forgives him right you know it's like [TS]

00:28:42 ◼   ► well you know he was just doing this is [TS]

00:28:45 ◼   ► job and it doesn't really hold it [TS]

00:28:47 ◼   ► against and it's like East Germany were [TS]

00:28:49 ◼   ► you know Easter me and yes like they [TS]

00:28:50 ◼   ► found out later everybody was spying on [TS]

00:28:52 ◼   ► everybody and the recriminations in the [TS]

00:28:55 ◼   ► you know the sort of either still going [TS]

00:28:57 ◼   ► through it now material still being [TS]

00:28:59 ◼   ► recovered in I don't how many people [TS]

00:29:00 ◼   ► were nice to me or some tens of millions [TS]

00:29:02 ◼   ► right and some substantial percentage of [TS]

00:29:04 ◼   ► the adult population at one point other [TS]

00:29:06 ◼   ► was on stassi's pay and file reports as [TS]

00:29:09 ◼   ► that's how you kept yourself and your [TS]

00:29:11 ◼   ► family from being destroyed and despite [TS]

00:29:13 ◼   ► the government's nature and its evilness [TS]

00:29:15 ◼   ► most people were just under observation [TS]

00:29:17 ◼   ► they weren't harmed so you can tell [TS]

00:29:18 ◼   ► yourself all i'm doing is keeping things [TS]

00:29:20 ◼   ► or this person to go to jail they're not [TS]

00:29:22 ◼   ► going to be disappeared [TS]

00:29:23 ◼   ► this is just part of keeping order and [TS]

00:29:25 ◼   ► it's that slippery slope [TS]

00:29:27 ◼   ► yeah this they reminded me of the lives [TS]

00:29:30 ◼   ► of others which is a great movie if you [TS]

00:29:31 ◼   ► haven't seen it about about the life of [TS]

00:29:33 ◼   ► people in east germany there's a [TS]

00:29:36 ◼   ► spymaster and there's somebody who's [TS]

00:29:37 ◼   ► being spied on and it's a bent one of [TS]

00:29:39 ◼   ► the best movies i've ever seen actually [TS]

00:29:41 ◼   ► remember the bit in the probable [TS]

00:29:42 ◼   ► lightness of being where uh there's a [TS]

00:29:44 ◼   ► bit where covers the protagonist come [TS]

00:29:47 ◼   ► back to Czechoslovakia was a bit we [TS]

00:29:50 ◼   ► realize is one of his close friends has [TS]

00:29:52 ◼   ► basically been informing on him all [TS]

00:29:54 ◼   ► along and I kind of shrug those huh [TS]

00:29:56 ◼   ► like I guess that's what it looks like [TS]

00:29:58 ◼   ► and every now that's something all these [TS]

00:30:01 ◼   ► books is that there is that it was just [TS]

00:30:04 ◼   ► like it's just this is the way the world [TS]

00:30:05 ◼   ► is and you know it's not [TS]

00:30:08 ◼   ► it happened so gradually and then it's [TS]

00:30:10 ◼   ► just--that's this is how it is now we [TS]

00:30:11 ◼   ► have you know Norman be as prime [TS]

00:30:13 ◼   ► minister and you know basically we all [TS]

00:30:15 ◼   ► agree that that far think it's a really [TS]

00:30:17 ◼   ► good book right for removal [TS]

00:30:20 ◼   ► I got a little during in effecting a [TS]

00:30:22 ◼   ► different i liked it it was a mean again [TS]

00:30:25 ◼   ► it was hard to judge it for its own [TS]

00:30:27 ◼   ► merits yes he went by your situation [TS]

00:30:29 ◼   ► yes your unstuck in time and I find [TS]

00:30:32 ◼   ► myself [TS]

00:30:33 ◼   ► unfortunately having to compare it to [TS]

00:30:36 ◼   ► Dorothy stairs who is also quoted in the [TS]

00:30:39 ◼   ► front piece of a penny [TS]

00:30:40 ◼   ► I mean clearly is an inspiration for [TS]

00:30:43 ◼   ► these books and while this different you [TS]

00:30:46 ◼   ► know deals with a very different subject [TS]

00:30:48 ◼   ► matter in many ways the the in the part [TS]

00:30:52 ◼   ► of it that is sort of plano module most [TS]

00:30:53 ◼   ► tutor thesairs I found falls a little [TS]

00:30:55 ◼   ► bit flat for me and that's only because [TS]

00:30:57 ◼   ► Dorothy serious isn't it [TS]

00:30:58 ◼   ► absolutely fantastic writer and those [TS]

00:31:00 ◼   ► books are you know way up there for me [TS]

00:31:02 ◼   ► but it's still I still found them [TS]

00:31:04 ◼   ► enjoyable it's it's it's you know it [TS]

00:31:08 ◼   ► isn't those books right it sits inside [TS]

00:31:10 ◼   ► right now clearly now I mean those are [TS]

00:31:12 ◼   ► very strict laws are mysteries and you [TS]

00:31:14 ◼   ► know they're right in the similar period [TS]

00:31:15 ◼   ► and stuff like that right where is this [TS]

00:31:17 ◼   ► is the it's like this more directive [TS]

00:31:19 ◼   ► again that you have the mystery part is [TS]

00:31:21 ◼   ► not the most important part yeah the [TS]

00:31:23 ◼   ► altar mr. anticipating it so hey penny [TS]

00:31:25 ◼   ► is funny because it's the it's the plot [TS]

00:31:27 ◼   ► to kill Hitler Hitler comes is going to [TS]

00:31:30 ◼   ► come to to London for a visit and watch [TS]

00:31:33 ◼   ► a play because of course that the old [TS]

00:31:36 ◼   ► good assassination attempt happen in the [TS]

00:31:38 ◼   ► theater that's just how it is because [TS]

00:31:40 ◼   ► they were you out in public so so we [TS]

00:31:42 ◼   ► have while watching hamlet of course yes [TS]

00:31:43 ◼   ► so so hit was coming to see to see a [TS]

00:31:47 ◼   ► play [TS]

00:31:47 ◼   ► well he's coming for other things but [TS]

00:31:48 ◼   ► they're gonna happen to see a play with [TS]

00:31:49 ◼   ► with the Prime Minister he's a big he [TS]

00:31:52 ◼   ► loves the theater Hitler hub and I and [TS]

00:31:55 ◼   ► Carmichael is put in charge of of [TS]

00:31:57 ◼   ► security isn't he [TS]

00:31:59 ◼   ► or he's no he's investigating a bombing [TS]

00:32:02 ◼   ► because there's a bombing we're uh an [TS]

00:32:06 ◼   ► actress [TS]

00:32:07 ◼   ► it's blowing up inexplicably why were [TS]

00:32:10 ◼   ► they blow up an actress and it begins to [TS]

00:32:11 ◼   ► unravel and it turns out that that's [TS]

00:32:13 ◼   ► part of this this you know an artist / [TS]

00:32:17 ◼   ► they were they were practicing they're [TS]

00:32:19 ◼   ► practicing to blow up Hitler in his [TS]

00:32:21 ◼   ► energy bar exactly exactly wanna not you [TS]

00:32:25 ◼   ► don't want to [TS]

00:32:25 ◼   ► amateur blow-up Hitler you want to get [TS]

00:32:27 ◼   ► it professionally you're going to blow [TS]

00:32:28 ◼   ► up Hitler you don't want to blow them up [TS]

00:32:29 ◼   ► a little you want to blow them up all [TS]

00:32:31 ◼   ► the way not just part of the way [TS]

00:32:33 ◼   ► no half Hitler blow up something else [TS]

00:32:34 ◼   ► only you gotta really blow him up so so [TS]

00:32:38 ◼   ► so Carmichael is investigating this [TS]

00:32:40 ◼   ► which is funny because now we've got our [TS]

00:32:43 ◼   ► are compromised hero here put on the [TS]

00:32:47 ◼   ► case of trying to prevent people killing [TS]

00:32:50 ◼   ► Hitler and Norman B who are awful people [TS]

00:32:53 ◼   ► and psyche a Carmichael except whoo know [TS]

00:32:58 ◼   ► yet been incredibly difficult as a I [TS]

00:33:01 ◼   ► don't know I i had a lot of trouble with [TS]

00:33:04 ◼   ► first of all I a lot of trouble with the [TS]

00:33:06 ◼   ► narrator who I just found also the other [TS]

00:33:10 ◼   ► the other characters viola who is this [TS]

00:33:12 ◼   ► actress who is at casting this gender [TS]

00:33:15 ◼   ► reverse which is a trend in in this [TS]

00:33:18 ◼   ► alternate world it's a trend of the [TS]

00:33:20 ◼   ► theatre in london is to gender reverse [TS]

00:33:22 ◼   ► plays so it's a gender reversed Hamlet [TS]

00:33:24 ◼   ► and she is she's kind of annoying it's [TS]

00:33:28 ◼   ► just did the itch to her motivations are [TS]

00:33:31 ◼   ► just on like I don't know it's a lot of [TS]

00:33:34 ◼   ► hand waving right like it [TS]

00:33:36 ◼   ► oh why are you going along with this [TS]

00:33:37 ◼   ► plot well you're kinda shit laughing [TS]

00:33:40 ◼   ► it's well yeah I didn't love with this [TS]

00:33:42 ◼   ► guy but are you sure she gets it over [TS]

00:33:45 ◼   ► she gets an overhead and and she's in [TS]

00:33:47 ◼   ► with the plotters and she's not she's [TS]

00:33:50 ◼   ► doing she's totally an overhead but she [TS]

00:33:52 ◼   ► goes along with it and yeah that she's [TS]

00:33:54 ◼   ► kind of romance by the guy but also ship [TS]

00:33:56 ◼   ► side of really he's kinda wrapped he's [TS]

00:33:58 ◼   ► kind of a sure he's a jerk but yeah I [TS]

00:34:01 ◼   ► mean he is a controller Irish anarchist [TS]

00:34:04 ◼   ► it took me a very long time to peg the [TS]

00:34:06 ◼   ► relationship between the two of them and [TS]

00:34:07 ◼   ► then I realized and I wondered if this [TS]

00:34:09 ◼   ► was intentional [TS]

00:34:10 ◼   ► it reminded me very much is I presume [TS]

00:34:13 ◼   ► least some of you have seen notorious [TS]

00:34:15 ◼   ► very good movie it's a fantastic movie [TS]

00:34:17 ◼   ► but what gives what struck me about is [TS]

00:34:18 ◼   ► basically it's a simple it's a movie in [TS]

00:34:20 ◼   ► which Ingrid Bergman is basically [TS]

00:34:22 ◼   ► convinced to narc on her husband who is [TS]

00:34:24 ◼   ► like a not to use flee to South America [TS]

00:34:26 ◼   ► or not is yeah more Nazi well he does so [TS]

00:34:30 ◼   ► Harry grant is the is the is the sort of [TS]

00:34:33 ◼   ► the ue American spy who's like her [TS]

00:34:35 ◼   ► handler essentially and is trying to [TS]

00:34:36 ◼   ► convince her and they sort of also fall [TS]

00:34:38 ◼   ► in love is going on but sometimes he [TS]

00:34:39 ◼   ► treats a lot of time he treats her very [TS]

00:34:41 ◼   ► callously and very coldly and his name [TS]

00:34:44 ◼   ► is Devlin which is like the thing where [TS]

00:34:45 ◼   ► I was like wait a second like because [TS]

00:34:47 ◼   ► that's the name of the character in a [TS]

00:34:48 ◼   ► penny to and so I wondered if some of [TS]

00:34:50 ◼   ► that dynamic was taken away or is sort [TS]

00:34:52 ◼   ► of an homage to that because it reminded [TS]

00:34:55 ◼   ► me very much of that same thing that [TS]

00:34:56 ◼   ► even seen for their driving around the [TS]

00:34:57 ◼   ► car together and I don't know it's like [TS]

00:34:59 ◼   ► it's very interesting how many parallel [TS]

00:35:02 ◼   ► started right there which is a master of [TS]

00:35:04 ◼   ► illusion as we know from among others [TS]

00:35:06 ◼   ► she can weave in I mean heard it's very [TS]

00:35:09 ◼   ► its original but boy they're just so [TS]

00:35:11 ◼   ► many things that ring bells here without [TS]

00:35:13 ◼   ► making it feel derivative you but you're [TS]

00:35:15 ◼   ► right that file is a damaged it and [TS]

00:35:18 ◼   ► annoying character and she she's got a [TS]

00:35:20 ◼   ► lot of she just kind of gets mixed up in [TS]

00:35:22 ◼   ► it and there's a lot of sort of like [TS]

00:35:24 ◼   ► well should I do it should I not do it [TS]

00:35:26 ◼   ► and.and that's year not to be hm [TS]

00:35:30 ◼   ► and all the time you're trying to eat [TS]

00:35:31 ◼   ► you know you do you have to do end up [TS]

00:35:33 ◼   ► having to like pull yourself back every [TS]

00:35:34 ◼   ► five seconds and be like wait it's [TS]

00:35:36 ◼   ► Hitler of course you should love them [TS]

00:35:38 ◼   ► black yeah like that was the whole day I [TS]

00:35:40 ◼   ► don't know I thought that was a clever [TS]

00:35:41 ◼   ► it is cover it hurts my head a little [TS]

00:35:44 ◼   ► bit yeah I mean there's even a bit she [TS]

00:35:45 ◼   ► meets Hitler and she's like I'm charming [TS]

00:35:48 ◼   ► he says charmila is this [TS]

00:35:50 ◼   ► I like this mustache when you're rooting [TS]

00:35:52 ◼   ► for Carmichael and then you like you do [TS]

00:35:55 ◼   ► get that lovely scene at the end where [TS]

00:35:57 ◼   ► officers like all the crap i just say [TS]

00:35:59 ◼   ► Miller whether he'll drive so at the end [TS]

00:36:01 ◼   ► he does succeed in Normandy into the [TS]

00:36:03 ◼   ► warding this plot and and Hitler is [TS]

00:36:05 ◼   ► unwanted unwanted Normanby is wounded [TS]

00:36:08 ◼   ► but survives and there is a line in the [TS]

00:36:11 ◼   ► third book where we're Carmichael says [TS]

00:36:14 ◼   ► what we've been thinking in the second [TS]

00:36:15 ◼   ► book which is I didn't realize until [TS]

00:36:17 ◼   ► after it was done that I could have just [TS]

00:36:18 ◼   ► done nothing and they would have both [TS]

00:36:20 ◼   ► been dead and that would have been [TS]

00:36:21 ◼   ► better if he just he just literally his [TS]

00:36:23 ◼   ► his policeman instincts take over and [TS]

00:36:26 ◼   ► that and that's the just wants to do it [TS]

00:36:27 ◼   ► he's the guy doing is just doing his job [TS]

00:36:28 ◼   ► and and we're so programmed in watching [TS]

00:36:31 ◼   ► this in in reading this book to be a [TS]

00:36:33 ◼   ► crime to be solved you want the cracks [TS]

00:36:35 ◼   ► are all be a virgin when our friend to [TS]

00:36:37 ◼   ► do his job and do it well we don't you [TS]

00:36:38 ◼   ► know all these things we want to have [TS]

00:36:40 ◼   ► happen and then you have to say but it's [TS]

00:36:42 ◼   ► Hitler just kill him right but but [TS]

00:36:45 ◼   ► Hitler even though even though it's not [TS]

00:36:48 ◼   ► actually a good thing that that he's [TS]

00:36:50 ◼   ► been set upon by his superiors easier [TS]

00:36:53 ◼   ► he's doing his job and in some ways with [TS]

00:36:54 ◼   ► Carmichael I mean that's all he's got [TS]

00:36:55 ◼   ► right first off he's being blackmailed [TS]

00:36:57 ◼   ► basically and you know this is the only [TS]

00:36:59 ◼   ► thing it's what he knows how to do and [TS]

00:37:03 ◼   ► and so he does it and that kind of [TS]

00:37:07 ◼   ► compliance of all the people to not [TS]

00:37:08 ◼   ► comply with this situation and yet he is [TS]

00:37:11 ◼   ► enforcing heat you know it's the gay man [TS]

00:37:14 ◼   ► that in the in this in this of the [TS]

00:37:17 ◼   ► oppressive society and yet he's the one [TS]

00:37:19 ◼   ► who's enforcing enforcing the society [TS]

00:37:22 ◼   ► and keeping it together even though it's [TS]

00:37:25 ◼   ► completely antithetical to everything he [TS]

00:37:26 ◼   ► believes because it's his job to do it [TS]

00:37:29 ◼   ► which is which only gets stepped up in [TS]

00:37:31 ◼   ► the third book when he's got even more [TS]

00:37:33 ◼   ► authority is his reward right in in [TS]

00:37:35 ◼   ► doing his job [TS]

00:37:36 ◼   ► okay great thanks now you're the head of [TS]

00:37:37 ◼   ► the secret police [TS]

00:37:38 ◼   ► yeah i think is cute everybody yeah joe [TS]

00:37:40 ◼   ► yeah best promotion and yeah excellent [TS]

00:37:44 ◼   ► work in saving Hitler he gets a medal I [TS]

00:37:46 ◼   ► believe too i think it was like its [TS]

00:37:48 ◼   ► environmental and get ya to Germany [TS]

00:37:50 ◼   ► metal music he gets to fly there and [TS]

00:37:52 ◼   ► he's got the Zeppelin privileges now for [TS]

00:37:55 ◼   ► our out of the state there are selfless [TS]

00:37:56 ◼   ► by the way in the in the key question [TS]

00:37:58 ◼   ► are are there Zeppelin's is elegant [TS]

00:38:02 ◼   ► history and all these books not only is [TS]

00:38:03 ◼   ► it a parallel universe and that means [TS]

00:38:05 ◼   ► that there is Evelyn's but also the [TS]

00:38:07 ◼   ► Germans are successful in the war and of [TS]

00:38:10 ◼   ► course the Germans love the Zeppelin's [TS]

00:38:11 ◼   ► cuz you know reception is there really a [TS]

00:38:15 ◼   ► German where the earlier on is it that's [TS]

00:38:17 ◼   ► the that's the thing if you ever wonder [TS]

00:38:18 ◼   ► if your if your reality is shifted and [TS]

00:38:20 ◼   ► your inner alter history Mars have to [TS]

00:38:22 ◼   ► check others up against you as well [TS]

00:38:24 ◼   ► maybe twice if you're in an alternate [TS]

00:38:26 ◼   ► timeline yes we had this I i was talking [TS]

00:38:28 ◼   ► to a friend of mine just yesterday and [TS]

00:38:30 ◼   ► she said Zeppelin's are so impractical [TS]

00:38:32 ◼   ► why would they have issues watching [TS]

00:38:34 ◼   ► fringe she was watching the the edges [TS]

00:38:36 ◼   ► like why would you [TS]

00:38:37 ◼   ► they're slow there why would you have [TS]

00:38:39 ◼   ► them and I said the only reason you have [TS]

00:38:41 ◼   ► to miss to say hey we're in a parallel [TS]

00:38:43 ◼   ► universe that's why the resemblance and [TS]

00:38:45 ◼   ► one day at my office I there's a [TS]

00:38:47 ◼   ► Zeppelin that goes around occasionally [TS]

00:38:48 ◼   ► in the bay area giving tours and I [TS]

00:38:50 ◼   ► sought out the window and I had a moment [TS]

00:38:51 ◼   ► of like who's the President and charles [TS]

00:38:54 ◼   ► lindbergh know it's what color is the [TS]

00:38:56 ◼   ► Statue of Liberty mr. Bitler is the [TS]

00:38:58 ◼   ► president actually has no president [TS]

00:39:00 ◼   ► whatever what happened was i saw i saw [TS]

00:39:02 ◼   ► the I saw the Zeppelin and I said wait a [TS]

00:39:04 ◼   ► second apples the most valuable company [TS]

00:39:06 ◼   ► in the world the giants won the world [TS]

00:39:07 ◼   ► series we got a black guy in the white [TS]

00:39:09 ◼   ► house and maybe we are in a parallel [TS]

00:39:11 ◼   ► universe the Zeppelin problems it [TS]

00:39:14 ◼   ► that's right but I promise for your butt [TS]

00:39:17 ◼   ► so I liked it I liked this book even [TS]

00:39:19 ◼   ► viola is really an annoying character [TS]

00:39:21 ◼   ► because i really enjoy Carmichael coming [TS]

00:39:23 ◼   ► to the fore here in solving this solving [TS]

00:39:25 ◼   ► this crime that you don't want him to [TS]

00:39:27 ◼   ► solve and and yet you know this point [TS]

00:39:29 ◼   ► there's not dead they know is not dead [TS]

00:39:32 ◼   ► and and what's interesting too is that [TS]

00:39:36 ◼   ► in violence narration she's she's [TS]

00:39:41 ◼   ► narrating at which you mean the you [TS]

00:39:43 ◼   ► assuming that means I'm next giveaway [TS]

00:39:44 ◼   ► that she's not gonna die [TS]

00:39:46 ◼   ► probably because she's able to narrate [TS]

00:39:48 ◼   ► it and as as it goes you get hints that [TS]

00:39:51 ◼   ► she's [TS]

00:39:52 ◼   ► not in a very good place here well and [TS]

00:39:54 ◼   ► this is interesting to a certain extent [TS]

00:39:56 ◼   ► because you do get this despite the fact [TS]

00:39:57 ◼   ► that those characters marry in the first [TS]

00:40:00 ◼   ► person and i think one was arguing that [TS]

00:40:02 ◼   ► you you always keep your distance from [TS]

00:40:04 ◼   ► carmichael to a certain extent was [TS]

00:40:06 ◼   ► fascinating to me is that those [TS]

00:40:07 ◼   ► narratives are far more colored right [TS]

00:40:09 ◼   ► because in Lucy's case anyway she's [TS]

00:40:11 ◼   ► written it down right that's actually [TS]

00:40:13 ◼   ► her that's her bones are counting the [TS]

00:40:15 ◼   ► storm wise comes back certain extent i [TS]

00:40:17 ◼   ► don't know if you get that as much with [TS]

00:40:18 ◼   ► Viola explicitly but I also there was [TS]

00:40:21 ◼   ► something in the third book to the [TS]

00:40:22 ◼   ► extent that I've read now where the [TS]

00:40:24 ◼   ► narrator remark something about well you [TS]

00:40:27 ◼   ► know that's how I remember it now or [TS]

00:40:28 ◼   ► that's how I'm relating it or something [TS]

00:40:29 ◼   ► like that so you also get this idea of [TS]

00:40:31 ◼   ► sort of a like someone recounting a [TS]

00:40:33 ◼   ► story right whereas the ones with [TS]

00:40:35 ◼   ► Carmichael are actually you're in the [TS]

00:40:37 ◼   ► moment right you're Willam listening to [TS]

00:40:39 ◼   ► him so in some ways you are more distant [TS]

00:40:41 ◼   ► from his thoughts but the same time [TS]

00:40:42 ◼   ► you're closer to him because you're [TS]

00:40:44 ◼   ► right with him as he is discovering all [TS]

00:40:45 ◼   ► these things it's not done from like a [TS]

00:40:47 ◼   ► retrospective position i liked a penny [TS]

00:40:49 ◼   ► what let's move on if there are no [TS]

00:40:52 ◼   ► objections to talk about half a crown [TS]

00:40:54 ◼   ► ok will fire off the spoiler [TS]

00:40:56 ◼   ► [Music] [TS]

00:40:57 ◼   ► and spoiler horn hit Dan and now he's [TS]

00:41:02 ◼   ► dead [TS]

00:41:02 ◼   ► sorry Dan that's the spoiler someone why [TS]

00:41:07 ◼   ► didn't you save me [TS]

00:41:08 ◼   ► Carmichael so half-a-crown your book I [TS]

00:41:10 ◼   ► just read this last week I I space these [TS]

00:41:12 ◼   ► out a little bit rather than completely [TS]

00:41:14 ◼   ► consuming them in one you know in one [TS]

00:41:16 ◼   ► sitting or or very short period of time [TS]

00:41:20 ◼   ► and in this one [TS]

00:41:22 ◼   ► Carmichael has risen to basically being [TS]

00:41:25 ◼   ► the head of of the Gestapo the [TS]

00:41:27 ◼   ► Englishman stop the English to stop on [TS]

00:41:29 ◼   ► the watch for more polite [TS]

00:41:31 ◼   ► yeah well of course when they have t [TS]

00:41:33 ◼   ► exactly and and so now he's he's in [TS]

00:41:35 ◼   ► charge of the secret police and end is [TS]

00:41:39 ◼   ► still under the thumb of Normandy who's [TS]

00:41:40 ◼   ► now this wounded guy him and there are [TS]

00:41:43 ◼   ► more extreme elements of society that [TS]

00:41:45 ◼   ► are kind of conspiring against him which [TS]

00:41:47 ◼   ► is really scary because wait a second [TS]

00:41:49 ◼   ► you know it's like he's not bad enough [TS]

00:41:51 ◼   ► we need somebody even more extreme and [TS]

00:41:54 ◼   ► even more evil is soft on terrorism but [TS]

00:41:57 ◼   ► they are building a there they are [TS]

00:41:58 ◼   ► building a concentration camp in England [TS]

00:42:00 ◼   ► so that they don't have to ship their [TS]

00:42:02 ◼   ► prisoners to Europe to have the progress [TS]

00:42:04 ◼   ► yeah oh yeah that's entirely things are [TS]

00:42:08 ◼   ► going yeah things are going swimmingly [TS]

00:42:10 ◼   ► we want our concentration camps [TS]

00:42:11 ◼   ► british-made that's right and and the [TS]

00:42:14 ◼   ► and then the alternate story here is his [TS]

00:42:19 ◼   ► ward basically who is the daughter of [TS]

00:42:22 ◼   ► his partner who gets gunned down in the [TS]

00:42:25 ◼   ► in the showdown at the end of the second [TS]

00:42:27 ◼   ► book right [TS]

00:42:28 ◼   ► yep not right like they're in the car [TS]

00:42:31 ◼   ► and get out and he gets yeah he gets [TS]

00:42:34 ◼   ► shot so it sort of way the the the [TS]

00:42:38 ◼   ► narrator here is his ward so he's he's [TS]

00:42:40 ◼   ► sort of adopted her his partner's [TS]

00:42:42 ◼   ► daughter because his partner's wife [TS]

00:42:44 ◼   ► written left them and and so he he [TS]

00:42:49 ◼   ► doesn't really raised her he sends her [TS]

00:42:50 ◼   ► off to a series of good schools and she [TS]

00:42:52 ◼   ► gets a a education far beyond what she [TS]

00:42:57 ◼   ► would have gotten as a a cometer [TS]

00:42:59 ◼   ► essentially and she knows all these high [TS]

00:43:01 ◼   ► society people and she's going to be [TS]

00:43:03 ◼   ► introduced at a at a I don't even know [TS]

00:43:07 ◼   ► what it is but to the queen that you [TS]

00:43:08 ◼   ► taught coming [TS]

00:43:09 ◼   ► yeah she's coming out as a deadbeat [TS]

00:43:11 ◼   ► coming out year it introduced to society [TS]

00:43:13 ◼   ► yes she went to a finishing school in [TS]

00:43:15 ◼   ► Switzerland and he's gets her anything [TS]

00:43:17 ◼   ► that she needs because he feels totally [TS]

00:43:19 ◼   ► guilty about the fact that his partner [TS]

00:43:21 ◼   ► was shot in that previous book and we [TS]

00:43:24 ◼   ► can get whatever she wants because he's [TS]

00:43:26 ◼   ► the head of the secret police secret [TS]

00:43:28 ◼   ► police yeah they also speaking of coming [TS]

00:43:30 ◼   ► out he's also managed to disable her [TS]

00:43:32 ◼   ► gaydar while she's growing up so that [TS]

00:43:34 ◼   ► she's incapable of perceiving that he [TS]

00:43:36 ◼   ► and his partner Jack are in love and [TS]

00:43:39 ◼   ► potentially sleeping together but not [TS]

00:43:40 ◼   ► while she's there is mad his office [TS]

00:43:42 ◼   ► she's off at school most of the time I [TS]

00:43:44 ◼   ► think it was easier what happens when [TS]

00:43:45 ◼   ► you live in manservants it was easier to [TS]

00:43:47 ◼   ► hide [TS]

00:43:48 ◼   ► that's my true feeling and and is [TS]

00:43:49 ◼   ► whatever she never stayed with him now [TS]

00:43:52 ◼   ► oh is that right no she did she live [TS]

00:43:53 ◼   ► with them during when she wasn't on [TS]

00:43:55 ◼   ► issues just usually off [TS]

00:43:56 ◼   ► no no no she says that she had a room [TS]

00:43:59 ◼   ► but she almost never stayed there she [TS]

00:44:01 ◼   ► was always with friends or she was off [TS]

00:44:02 ◼   ► at school and she she basically never [TS]

00:44:04 ◼   ► mean he heat she was his ward but at [TS]

00:44:08 ◼   ► arm's length sort of the whole I don't [TS]

00:44:10 ◼   ► think I got that he never stayed I say [TS]

00:44:11 ◼   ► yeah you got you got the sense that he [TS]

00:44:13 ◼   ► was unwell wouldn't be proper just [TS]

00:44:15 ◼   ► because I guess that's true to confirm [TS]

00:44:17 ◼   ► that there's a lot of you know I should [TS]

00:44:19 ◼   ► bring up at this point that's one of the [TS]

00:44:20 ◼   ► things that it sort of gets a more and [TS]

00:44:22 ◼   ► more so that the books like they're all [TS]

00:44:23 ◼   ► kinds of homosexuals this book and all [TS]

00:44:25 ◼   ► kinds of things and you're like it she [TS]

00:44:28 ◼   ► she dwells a little too much like I [TS]

00:44:30 ◼   ► realize the plot device is part of like [TS]

00:44:31 ◼   ► blackmailing people because you know [TS]

00:44:34 ◼   ► then the under the thumb but the Prime [TS]

00:44:36 ◼   ► Minister is gay and the guy who was [TS]

00:44:38 ◼   ► killed with his name in the first book [TS]

00:44:40 ◼   ► he's potentially maybe he was gay but no [TS]

00:44:42 ◼   ► he was having an affair it's like lying [TS]

00:44:44 ◼   ► in the third book there's the guy who's [TS]

00:44:45 ◼   ► like that in high up in the government [TS]

00:44:48 ◼   ► who write who is actually sympathetic to [TS]

00:44:51 ◼   ► getting rid of Norman B and he's getting [TS]

00:44:53 ◼   ► too big a get some is fine but it's just [TS]

00:44:56 ◼   ► the funny part is i think she deals with [TS]

00:44:57 ◼   ► it's a little cold and this person is [TS]

00:44:59 ◼   ► what they call the Apollonian what's the [TS]

00:45:01 ◼   ► Apollonian was like a name remember yeah [TS]

00:45:05 ◼   ► that in numbers book Athena Athena yeah [TS]

00:45:08 ◼   ► me and this is something that yeah yeah [TS]

00:45:10 ◼   ► yeah it's their their their code for it [TS]

00:45:12 ◼   ► it's just a little coy I think in some [TS]

00:45:13 ◼   ► ways there's a great scene within [TS]

00:45:16 ◼   ► half-a-crown ricky carmichael takes jack [TS]

00:45:18 ◼   ► to a gay bar like one of the only safe [TS]

00:45:21 ◼   ► gay bars oh yeah in London and he hates [TS]

00:45:24 ◼   ► it he doesn't like that is an attack [TS]

00:45:26 ◼   ► digging that is a fantastic scene [TS]

00:45:28 ◼   ► because thats that moment that is part [TS]

00:45:31 ◼   ► of the moment where you really kind of [TS]

00:45:32 ◼   ► start to get a sense of carmichael and [TS]

00:45:34 ◼   ► it is almost in the inverse because he [TS]

00:45:36 ◼   ► he takes Jack there because it's their [TS]

00:45:38 ◼   ► anniversary and we've seen Jack a little [TS]

00:45:40 ◼   ► bit but he's not really been much of a [TS]

00:45:42 ◼   ► character and here it's sort of like you [TS]

00:45:44 ◼   ► know you see you think about him having [TS]

00:45:46 ◼   ► to act like the manservant and be in the [TS]

00:45:49 ◼   ► background all the time and wonder what [TS]

00:45:51 ◼   ► his life would be like and then here we [TS]

00:45:52 ◼   ► get the reverse switches that Carmichael [TS]

00:45:54 ◼   ► does what he wants and goes to this club [TS]

00:45:57 ◼   ► and hates every minute of it and ends up [TS]

00:46:01 ◼   ► talking to the bartender for a little [TS]

00:46:02 ◼   ► while the bartender listens to her [TS]

00:46:04 ◼   ► sorrows and sort of understands the best [TS]

00:46:05 ◼   ► bartenders do and the bartender's like I [TS]

00:46:08 ◼   ► should stop talking to you because [TS]

00:46:09 ◼   ► you're your guys gonna be jealous but [TS]

00:46:12 ◼   ► that's fascinating to because they're [TS]

00:46:14 ◼   ► like he recognizes people there [TS]

00:46:16 ◼   ► it turns out that the the emissary from [TS]

00:46:19 ◼   ► Imperial Japan who's going to the piece [TS]

00:46:21 ◼   ► tortoise is there uh it's it's just and [TS]

00:46:26 ◼   ► that there's some really and I tried to [TS]

00:46:28 ◼   ► imagine it actually is a movie because [TS]

00:46:30 ◼   ► there's there's a scene where there [TS]

00:46:31 ◼   ► there's some of some of them in there [TS]

00:46:33 ◼   ► are dressed as women and there's a man [TS]

00:46:35 ◼   ► who's passing fairly well as well as a [TS]

00:46:37 ◼   ► woman and they dance and it's just I i [TS]

00:46:41 ◼   ► thought this would be this great scene [TS]

00:46:43 ◼   ► in a movie because it's it's it's it's [TS]

00:46:47 ◼   ► it's completely inverting your usual [TS]

00:46:49 ◼   ► expectation of a man and a woman on a [TS]

00:46:51 ◼   ► dance floor and it react it's just it's [TS]

00:46:53 ◼   ► i really love that scene because it says [TS]

00:46:55 ◼   ► so much and so much about the oppression [TS]

00:46:58 ◼   ► and so much about the the the [TS]

00:47:00 ◼   ► undercurrent of society and these people [TS]

00:47:02 ◼   ► are involved in this terrible society [TS]

00:47:04 ◼   ► and yet they have this one place where [TS]

00:47:05 ◼   ► they can go and then also contact the [TS]

00:47:07 ◼   ► Carmichael just hate it it's just not [TS]

00:47:09 ◼   ► for him he's completely suppress [TS]

00:47:12 ◼   ► everything about that part of his [TS]

00:47:14 ◼   ► identity [TS]

00:47:14 ◼   ► it's just not part of who he is so in [TS]

00:47:18 ◼   ► this this book is interesting because a [TS]

00:47:20 ◼   ► it's a it's clearly they want the last [TS]

00:47:24 ◼   ► book because it's come to a head things [TS]

00:47:28 ◼   ► come to a head right instead of it being [TS]

00:47:30 ◼   ► this well in a series of novels [TS]

00:47:31 ◼   ► Carmichael you know is is getting Jews [TS]

00:47:35 ◼   ► out of England on the side while in [TS]

00:47:37 ◼   ► investigating things and doing horrible [TS]

00:47:39 ◼   ► things for the government but no in fact [TS]

00:47:42 ◼   ► in this book [TS]

00:47:43 ◼   ► he's got powerful enemies they know and [TS]

00:47:46 ◼   ► can blackmail him as well it's sort of [TS]

00:47:49 ◼   ► the other police force and there's this [TS]

00:47:51 ◼   ► infighting because this is the sort of [TS]

00:47:53 ◼   ► government is starting to crack up a [TS]

00:47:54 ◼   ► little bit mirror these these competing [TS]

00:47:56 ◼   ► factions and and and the plot against [TS]

00:47:59 ◼   ► Norman B and it comes to a head where [TS]

00:48:03 ◼   ► his ward is arrested because she goes to [TS]

00:48:07 ◼   ► this fascist rally because it might be [TS]

00:48:09 ◼   ► fun fashion that sounds like a kick and [TS]

00:48:12 ◼   ► but there to fascist well thatthat's the [TS]

00:48:14 ◼   ► things that turns it turns into a rally [TS]

00:48:16 ◼   ► that's an anti Normanby rally because he [TS]

00:48:18 ◼   ► doesn't go far enough right [TS]

00:48:20 ◼   ► and then there's a riot and she gets [TS]

00:48:21 ◼   ► arrested in the poll leader of the [TS]

00:48:23 ◼   ► police feels like he can use her against [TS]

00:48:27 ◼   ► Carmichael and Carmichael duh does [TS]

00:48:32 ◼   ► increasingly dangerous things because he [TS]

00:48:35 ◼   ► doesn't want to be pushed around and I [TS]

00:48:36 ◼   ► think he feels on another level like he [TS]

00:48:38 ◼   ► sort of has nothing to lose and and it [TS]

00:48:42 ◼   ► all falls I mean it all falls apart kind [TS]

00:48:45 ◼   ► of pretty dramatically to the point [TS]

00:48:47 ◼   ► where he first off he just walks up to [TS]

00:48:51 ◼   ► the place where the transferring her [TS]

00:48:53 ◼   ► from one jail to the place where they're [TS]

00:48:55 ◼   ► going to torture her and just says we're [TS]

00:48:57 ◼   ► taking her which shows that his attitude [TS]

00:48:59 ◼   ► is the watch can do whatever the police [TS]

00:49:01 ◼   ► can you know can suck it [TS]

00:49:04 ◼   ► the world we're going to take we're [TS]

00:49:05 ◼   ► gonna take her we're gonna walk away we [TS]

00:49:08 ◼   ► just like wow I mean totally you know [TS]

00:49:10 ◼   ► totally above the law [TS]

00:49:11 ◼   ► totally outside it whatever we think of [TS]

00:49:13 ◼   ► the society it's like totally against [TS]

00:49:15 ◼   ► the rules to do something and he's like [TS]

00:49:16 ◼   ► whatever I'm the head of the watch i can [TS]

00:49:18 ◼   ► do whatever i want but what happens is [TS]

00:49:19 ◼   ► that they he takes her and they take [TS]

00:49:22 ◼   ► Jack and that's that that's the really [TS]

00:49:24 ◼   ► as many many things that happened at the [TS]

00:49:26 ◼   ► end of this book that are positive they [TS]

00:49:28 ◼   ► take Jack and he doesn't make it [TS]

00:49:30 ◼   ► he he kills himself rather than give up [TS]

00:49:33 ◼   ► secrets about Carmichael and which is [TS]

00:49:36 ◼   ► which is just tragic [TS]

00:49:38 ◼   ► it's it's terrible and there's a moment [TS]

00:49:40 ◼   ► where Carmichael thinks about giving up [TS]

00:49:42 ◼   ► the [TS]

00:49:43 ◼   ► girl just to get his guy back and feels [TS]

00:49:47 ◼   ► incredibly guilty about it afterward but [TS]

00:49:49 ◼   ► so you know he ends up on the run and [TS]

00:49:51 ◼   ► it's it's amazing because you're [TS]

00:49:53 ◼   ► thinking I i don't know i read it as you [TS]

00:49:56 ◼   ► know i'm reading a series and you almost [TS]

00:49:57 ◼   ► expect the premise to stay steady and [TS]

00:50:00 ◼   ► instead she blows it up like halfway [TS]

00:50:02 ◼   ► through this book everything has [TS]

00:50:03 ◼   ► completely been blown up [TS]

00:50:05 ◼   ► yeah i'm i'm gonna tell you right off i [TS]

00:50:07 ◼   ► have it was really disappointing because [TS]

00:50:09 ◼   ► I felt like super like you say she broke [TS]

00:50:11 ◼   ► the mood [TS]

00:50:12 ◼   ► there's too much change there's a she [TS]

00:50:16 ◼   ► tries to pack too much in and then you [TS]

00:50:18 ◼   ► get the Irish revolutionary who is a war [TS]

00:50:20 ◼   ► hero comes back and I do something [TS]

00:50:23 ◼   ► stupid [TS]

00:50:24 ◼   ► where it's barely explaining i'm looking [TS]

00:50:26 ◼   ► at the end with the sort of giant she's [TS]

00:50:28 ◼   ► a very bad sniper [TS]

00:50:29 ◼   ► yeah well I wanted to say really quickly [TS]

00:50:32 ◼   ► about the three female characters right [TS]

00:50:37 ◼   ► was saying earlier on so as not to give [TS]

00:50:39 ◼   ► away spoilers that you know they all [TS]

00:50:41 ◼   ► make very specific decisions and in part [TS]

00:50:44 ◼   ► based on their class I think and I think [TS]

00:50:46 ◼   ► it's very interesting and kind of [TS]

00:50:48 ◼   ► fascinating that the girl who was [TS]

00:50:50 ◼   ► brought up entirely in high society [TS]

00:50:53 ◼   ► chooses to flee rather than face you [TS]

00:50:57 ◼   ► know fascism and everything that's going [TS]

00:50:59 ◼   ► on right the girl who was brought up in [TS]

00:51:01 ◼   ► high society and then turns her back on [TS]

00:51:04 ◼   ► it [TS]

00:51:05 ◼   ► who is viola because she's I mean it was [TS]

00:51:07 ◼   ► established that she's pretty she is a [TS]

00:51:09 ◼   ► you know a used to be an artist anything [TS]

00:51:12 ◼   ► like that shes black superficial burns [TS]

00:51:14 ◼   ► she spurns that she decides if she [TS]

00:51:17 ◼   ► decides to basically blow up it would ya [TS]

00:51:20 ◼   ► light and then we get we get rolls [TS]

00:51:25 ◼   ► royces daughter Elvira who is by all [TS]

00:51:29 ◼   ► rights and means a commenter who has [TS]

00:51:31 ◼   ► been given the rights of a noble and she [TS]

00:51:34 ◼   ► chooses to basically use these and turn [TS]

00:51:38 ◼   ► them into something like Carmichael [TS]

00:51:40 ◼   ► where she chooses to basically [TS]

00:51:41 ◼   ► investigate and uncover and eventually [TS]

00:51:45 ◼   ► goes to the queen with her [TS]

00:51:47 ◼   ► yeah so so II I i kinda like the fact [TS]

00:51:54 ◼   ► that everything gets blown up and falls [TS]

00:51:56 ◼   ► pieces because this whole series is [TS]

00:52:00 ◼   ► about like weird and dark and England [TS]

00:52:02 ◼   ► and bad feelings and all that i was [TS]

00:52:05 ◼   ► surprised by the end of this book [TS]

00:52:06 ◼   ► because she tries to put a happy ending [TS]

00:52:08 ◼   ► on this series and and I it's a little [TS]

00:52:12 ◼   ► bit of a queen ex machina well no I mean [TS]

00:52:16 ◼   ► in the end in the end it's sort of like [TS]

00:52:18 ◼   ► but the spirit of the British people [TS]

00:52:20 ◼   ► comes two comes to life at the end they [TS]

00:52:23 ◼   ► don't they don't like the fact sending [TS]

00:52:25 ◼   ► people to a concentration camp on the [TS]

00:52:27 ◼   ► continent [TS]

00:52:28 ◼   ► that's fine but we're not going to build [TS]

00:52:30 ◼   ► a concentration camp here that's not [TS]

00:52:32 ◼   ► British that's terrible [TS]

00:52:34 ◼   ► and the Queen has something to say about [TS]

00:52:35 ◼   ► it and mcqueen you know i get it i don't [TS]

00:52:39 ◼   ► know i mean it it's nice that it's a [TS]

00:52:40 ◼   ► happy ending but it didn't it didn't [TS]

00:52:42 ◼   ► seem particularly realistic to me that [TS]

00:52:44 ◼   ► that would be the solution to all of [TS]

00:52:46 ◼   ► this is that they would you know they [TS]

00:52:48 ◼   ► would they would take his police files [TS]

00:52:51 ◼   ► that proved that Normandy was involved [TS]

00:52:53 ◼   ► in the plot from the first book and and [TS]

00:52:55 ◼   ► give it to the Queen and simultaneously [TS]

00:52:57 ◼   ► hit you no virus talking to the queen [TS]

00:53:00 ◼   ► and the guy who got the book from [TS]

00:53:01 ◼   ► carmichael is waiting right behind her [TS]

00:53:04 ◼   ► to give the book to the Queen a in you [TS]

00:53:08 ◼   ► know she wanted a happy ending so she [TS]

00:53:09 ◼   ► gave them one she's giving the speech [TS]

00:53:11 ◼   ► she's giving the speech the Queen gives [TS]

00:53:13 ◼   ► a talk at this extensible peace [TS]

00:53:15 ◼   ► conference which is sort of dividing up [TS]

00:53:17 ◼   ► the planet into different realms and [TS]

00:53:19 ◼   ► she's like Hitler's right there [TS]

00:53:21 ◼   ► she's giving this talk about England [TS]

00:53:22 ◼   ► turning its back and whatever i'm like [TS]

00:53:24 ◼   ► well he might just choose to invade this [TS]

00:53:27 ◼   ► point all right right because he's well [TS]

00:53:28 ◼   ► but he's like this point and I'm we're [TS]

00:53:30 ◼   ► talking about 19 what 64 65 Hitler this [TS]

00:53:33 ◼   ► point is an older man and it sounds like [TS]

00:53:35 ◼   ► while germany's you know we gonna look [TS]

00:53:37 ◼   ► this is a mellow hitting hell yeah well [TS]

00:53:41 ◼   ► they and their extended because they're [TS]

00:53:42 ◼   ► carving of prussia and they've got mean [TS]

00:53:44 ◼   ► thatthat's I did wonder about that that [TS]

00:53:46 ◼   ► that what are the consequences of this [TS]

00:53:48 ◼   ► for England England end up getting yeah [TS]

00:53:50 ◼   ► getting attacked or do they just sort of [TS]

00:53:53 ◼   ► let them let them go off and and [TS]

00:53:55 ◼   ► democracy it's not as well it's not [TS]

00:53:57 ◼   ► necessarily a phantom mean just [TS]

00:54:00 ◼   ► replacing Normanby doesn't necessarily [TS]

00:54:02 ◼   ► mean the backing off a little bit is not [TS]

00:54:04 ◼   ► the same as turning their back on [TS]

00:54:06 ◼   ► well that's what Carmichael kind of says [TS]

00:54:08 ◼   ► the end of the second [TS]

00:54:09 ◼   ► the book where it's like yeah you can [TS]

00:54:10 ◼   ► kill Hitler and kill Normanby but the [TS]

00:54:13 ◼   ► country is so far down the rabbit hole [TS]

00:54:16 ◼   ► fascism that a new leader is not going [TS]

00:54:19 ◼   ► to magically cure it's a slow process [TS]

00:54:21 ◼   ► but that's why her for her premise here [TS]

00:54:23 ◼   ► is that is that enough of this happens [TS]

00:54:25 ◼   ► that it's a bridge too far that the [TS]

00:54:27 ◼   ► society that the oppression gets a [TS]

00:54:28 ◼   ► little too extreme and people who would [TS]

00:54:31 ◼   ► go along with it to a point it goes [TS]

00:54:34 ◼   ► they push it a little too far and then [TS]

00:54:36 ◼   ► people say oh well this is indecent you [TS]

00:54:37 ◼   ► shouldn't do that and it's things like [TS]

00:54:39 ◼   ► the like the concentration camp opening [TS]

00:54:42 ◼   ► up and there's that scene where they're [TS]

00:54:43 ◼   ► on the TV show and they announced so [TS]

00:54:46 ◼   ► we're gonna have a concentration camp [TS]

00:54:47 ◼   ► right here in England and people start [TS]

00:54:50 ◼   ► to feel like what wait a second that's [TS]

00:54:52 ◼   ► not right so that's her premises that [TS]

00:54:53 ◼   ► pushed far enough eventually the fraud [TS]

00:54:56 ◼   ► realizes that it's in boiling water and [TS]

00:54:58 ◼   ► it jumps out well I guess what she's [TS]

00:54:59 ◼   ► trying to say i think that people were [TS]

00:55:01 ◼   ► gradually more and more comfortable with [TS]

00:55:02 ◼   ► it but they found themselves in like an [TS]

00:55:04 ◼   ► East German situation you know before [TS]

00:55:06 ◼   ► the wall comes down and there's not much [TS]

00:55:08 ◼   ► to send in the center sort of shipped [TS]

00:55:10 ◼   ► off to the continent by people like in [TS]

00:55:13 ◼   ► fact Carmichael in the watch but you [TS]

00:55:16 ◼   ► know they're they're sending people off [TS]

00:55:17 ◼   ► all the time and he's smuggling people [TS]

00:55:18 ◼   ► out of the country and you know what he [TS]

00:55:20 ◼   ► has done to send but you know that the [TS]

00:55:21 ◼   ► thing that I didn't like in the in this [TS]

00:55:23 ◼   ► book to is that protest on the peaceful [TS]

00:55:25 ◼   ► protests but the the watch and the [TS]

00:55:28 ◼   ► police are apparently someone over [TS]

00:55:29 ◼   ► extended to with all the security that [TS]

00:55:31 ◼   ► has to happen and you know they haven't [TS]

00:55:33 ◼   ► made every other person a policeman or [TS]

00:55:35 ◼   ► watch officer so the peaceful approach [TS]

00:55:38 ◼   ► to start to happen and chemicals like [TS]

00:55:39 ◼   ► yeah let's not crack down on those let's [TS]

00:55:41 ◼   ► let those just go make sure nothing [TS]

00:55:43 ◼   ► happens and it's negative sentence at [TS]

00:55:44 ◼   ► the name of his so number two guys in on [TS]

00:55:47 ◼   ► shipping out jus secretly and his Jewish [TS]

00:55:50 ◼   ► himself is like the token jew and the [TS]

00:55:52 ◼   ► watch to show the third tolerant or [TS]

00:55:53 ◼   ► something [TS]

00:55:54 ◼   ► I that that whole thing we're like [TS]

00:55:56 ◼   ► Jacobson just sort of that I would [TS]

00:55:58 ◼   ► enforce this will be more peaceful [TS]

00:55:59 ◼   ► protests and nothing can go wrong with [TS]

00:56:01 ◼   ► that and then there's enough peaceful [TS]

00:56:02 ◼   ► protests covered by the media and the [TS]

00:56:04 ◼   ► Queen finds out [TS]

00:56:05 ◼   ► oh my gosh these terrible thing as well [TS]

00:56:07 ◼   ► she's watching people being exported no [TS]

00:56:09 ◼   ► sent away for 20 years to concentration [TS]

00:56:11 ◼   ► camps natural like well I really rather [TS]

00:56:13 ◼   ► didn't like that I think things have [TS]

00:56:14 ◼   ► gone a bit too far so it's time to [TS]

00:56:16 ◼   ► change things i thought it's a little [TS]

00:56:18 ◼   ► too convenient [TS]

00:56:19 ◼   ► yeah although I mean to be fair to the [TS]

00:56:20 ◼   ► queen she would not have [TS]

00:56:22 ◼   ► Ben queen for very long at that point [TS]

00:56:23 ◼   ► she would have only been Queen since 52 [TS]

00:56:28 ◼   ► so Malia was a plot about this okay [TS]

00:56:32 ◼   ► leaders coming back and and that's [TS]

00:56:34 ◼   ► actually a really fascinating thing is [TS]

00:56:35 ◼   ► that her her uncle who was the king who [TS]

00:56:37 ◼   ► abandoned he advocated because you [TS]

00:56:40 ◼   ► wanted to marry American device a wallis [TS]

00:56:43 ◼   ► simpson action is he in this and he was [TS]

00:56:45 ◼   ► he was in reality accused of being a [TS]

00:56:48 ◼   ► Hitler sympathizer yeah and he fled and [TS]

00:56:52 ◼   ► you know when he abdicated lived in [TS]

00:56:54 ◼   ► France for a long time and so in this [TS]

00:56:56 ◼   ► book he is basically a part of the plot [TS]

00:56:59 ◼   ► to overthrow I mean you get the sense [TS]

00:57:02 ◼   ► that it's part of its going to overthrow [TS]

00:57:03 ◼   ► the government and he's gonna basically [TS]

00:57:05 ◼   ► come back and re-establish himself as [TS]

00:57:07 ◼   ► the king and get rid of the rest of the [TS]

00:57:10 ◼   ► Royals and all of that and and put in a [TS]

00:57:12 ◼   ► new fascist the government and so so the [TS]

00:57:17 ◼   ► Queen on one level you know this has [TS]

00:57:19 ◼   ► affected her too and she's young i mean [TS]

00:57:21 ◼   ► she's she's she's young and came to [TS]

00:57:24 ◼   ► power after all of this had already gone [TS]

00:57:26 ◼   ► on so in some ways you could if you want [TS]

00:57:28 ◼   ► to be charitable [TS]

00:57:29 ◼   ► this is the Queen the young Queen [TS]

00:57:33 ◼   ► feeling like she actually can make a [TS]

00:57:34 ◼   ► difference this is the one place where [TS]

00:57:36 ◼   ► she can step in and and get her country [TS]

00:57:38 ◼   ► back on on the right track but i do love [TS]

00:57:41 ◼   ► the logic though it's a time there was [TS]

00:57:43 ◼   ► this point when Russia with his are you [TS]

00:57:45 ◼   ► know he will likely only desire knew [TS]

00:57:46 ◼   ► about what was happening it was always [TS]

00:57:47 ◼   ► that you know if I don't get word to him [TS]

00:57:49 ◼   ► this isn't that there's a movie i think [TS]

00:57:51 ◼   ► in which a very early film in which that [TS]

00:57:53 ◼   ► sort of portrayed of these are finally [TS]

00:57:55 ◼   ► being told that he's like yeah whatever [TS]

00:57:56 ◼   ► i don't care president's gonna go you [TS]

00:57:58 ◼   ► know that like me and that's it like [TS]

00:58:00 ◼   ► well only the Queen wouldn't know well [TS]

00:58:01 ◼   ► this young woman happens to be in the [TS]

00:58:03 ◼   ► right position to know the whole just so [TS]

00:58:05 ◼   ► happens I easy sequence which she gets [TS]

00:58:07 ◼   ► her dress and she manages to change and [TS]