The Incomparable

00:00:01 ◼   ► the incomparable number 354 May 2017 [TS]

00:00:11 ◼   ► welcome back everybody to the [TS]

00:00:12 ◼   ► incomparable I'm your host Jason Snell [TS]

00:00:14 ◼   ► this is a special bonus episode of being [TS]

00:00:17 ◼   ► comparable with something that's only [TS]

00:00:20 ◼   ► been done once before only a single [TS]

00:00:22 ◼   ► guest it's Dan Lauren he just said Wow [TS]

00:00:27 ◼   ► hi Dan hi Jason [TS]

00:00:29 ◼   ► who was the other single guest well when [TS]

00:00:32 ◼   ► we did the Miyazaki overview episode [TS]

00:00:34 ◼   ► only Jon siracusa okay we're on it [TS]

00:00:37 ◼   ► because nobody else wanted to be on it [TS]

00:00:39 ◼   ► oh yeah that's like this show nobody [TS]

00:00:41 ◼   ► else wanted to be on this episode either [TS]

00:00:43 ◼   ► we've come a long way so people asked me [TS]

00:00:45 ◼   ► if we were gonna cover the fact we've [TS]

00:00:47 ◼   ► been talking you've been mentioning it [TS]

00:00:49 ◼   ► on various podcasts that you that you [TS]

00:00:51 ◼   ► write write novels and even work in [TS]

00:00:53 ◼   ► novels and you're hoping to have a novel [TS]

00:00:54 ◼   ► published and the plan here is that this [TS]

00:00:57 ◼   ► episode will go out on the day that your [TS]

00:00:58 ◼   ► first novel is published officially [TS]

00:01:00 ◼   ► although I already received my copy in [TS]

00:01:02 ◼   ► the mail as have many people the printed [TS]

00:01:04 ◼   ► Edition the e-book will come out then [TS]

00:01:06 ◼   ► it'll be available should be on shelves [TS]

00:01:07 ◼   ► and bookstores all of these things [TS]

00:01:09 ◼   ► should happen and everybody asked like [TS]

00:01:12 ◼   ► well are you gonna do an incomparable [TS]

00:01:14 ◼   ► episode and talk about is like well I [TS]

00:01:15 ◼   ► don't think we should do a regular [TS]

00:01:18 ◼   ► incomparable episode about the work of [TS]

00:01:21 ◼   ► somebody who is one of our panelists cuz [TS]

00:01:24 ◼   ► there's only a couple ways that can go [TS]

00:01:27 ◼   ► yeah one of them could be very very bad [TS]

00:01:30 ◼   ► right and the other would be super [TS]

00:01:33 ◼   ► boring because it'll just be nice things [TS]

00:01:35 ◼   ► about our friend in their book and [TS]

00:01:37 ◼   ► that's also not good so I decided that [TS]

00:01:41 ◼   ► maybe what we would do for this episode [TS]

00:01:43 ◼   ► this bonus episode is for you and me to [TS]

00:01:47 ◼   ► talk about about your your book in the [TS]

00:01:51 ◼   ► process of writing your book and the [TS]

00:01:53 ◼   ► story of of you putting this thing [TS]

00:01:56 ◼   ► together because I think people will be [TS]

00:01:58 ◼   ► interested in that people have been [TS]

00:01:59 ◼   ► listening to this podcast for a long [TS]

00:02:00 ◼   ► time have been hearing your voice you [TS]

00:02:02 ◼   ► are are the most frequent panelist on [TS]

00:02:05 ◼   ► the incomparable so I know hold that up [TS]

00:02:08 ◼   ► I mean I'm there are there people [TS]

00:02:09 ◼   ► nipping at my heels these days [TS]

00:02:11 ◼   ► yeah well David Laura is on every [TS]

00:02:12 ◼   ► episode of everything he says yes I have [TS]

00:02:14 ◼   ► to just tell him no sometimes because he [TS]

00:02:16 ◼   ► will always say yes so but yeah so I [TS]

00:02:19 ◼   ► thought if that would be a way that we [TS]

00:02:21 ◼   ► could do it is we could talk about the [TS]

00:02:22 ◼   ► book and what's in it and how [TS]

00:02:24 ◼   ► uuhh without you know spoiling it for [TS]

00:02:26 ◼   ► people yeah well yeah maybe we'll do a [TS]

00:02:29 ◼   ► little spoil horn at the end I don't [TS]

00:02:30 ◼   ► know but and about the process because I [TS]

00:02:32 ◼   ► think the process is interesting too as [TS]

00:02:34 ◼   ► I have tweeted about before I have an [TS]

00:02:36 ◼   ► email here from June 2010 and so almost [TS]

00:02:41 ◼   ► seven years ago that is you sending [TS]

00:02:44 ◼   ► along or offering to send along an [TS]

00:02:46 ◼   ► e-book of your beta stage of your novel [TS]

00:02:51 ◼   ► it's all the plot lines are firing [TS]

00:02:53 ◼   ► smoothly but ironed out most of the more [TS]

00:02:55 ◼   ► incidental problems but still a [TS]

00:02:57 ◼   ► work-in-progress danger may abound that [TS]

00:03:02 ◼   ► seems the accurate description of the [TS]

00:03:04 ◼   ► first draft of many novel so let's back [TS]

00:03:07 ◼   ► up from 2010 and and start with first [TS]

00:03:12 ◼   ► let's start with where when did you [TS]

00:03:14 ◼   ► write your first what you consider a [TS]

00:03:16 ◼   ► your first novel to have you have [TS]

00:03:19 ◼   ► written and and tell tell us how long it [TS]

00:03:23 ◼   ► was from there to the thing that became [TS]

00:03:26 ◼   ► the Caledonian gambit well the very [TS]

00:03:30 ◼   ► first thing I'm sort of looking back to [TS]

00:03:32 ◼   ► see what I can actually find here in [TS]

00:03:35 ◼   ► terms of my early early attempts of [TS]

00:03:38 ◼   ► writing things but I think the very [TS]

00:03:39 ◼   ► first thing I finished and I've been [TS]

00:03:43 ◼   ► trying to write novels for years I [TS]

00:03:45 ◼   ► remember like I got a little better at [TS]

00:03:47 ◼   ► it as it went along and I wrote some [TS]

00:03:49 ◼   ► short stories here and there but never [TS]

00:03:50 ◼   ► anything that I liked really I always [TS]

00:03:52 ◼   ► wanted to write novels and let's write [TS]

00:03:53 ◼   ► long stories because that's what I liked [TS]

00:03:54 ◼   ► reading and I wanted the ability to be [TS]

00:03:57 ◼   ► able to have all those things you can't [TS]

00:03:59 ◼   ► do easily in a short story like little [TS]

00:04:01 ◼   ► digression xand like world like you know [TS]

00:04:03 ◼   ► the you can do some of these things [TS]

00:04:04 ◼   ► short stories but you have to be very [TS]

00:04:05 ◼   ► economical about it and I'm maybe not an [TS]

00:04:08 ◼   ► economical person when it comes to [TS]

00:04:09 ◼   ► writing and so creating a short story [TS]

00:04:12 ◼   ► which is a very finely crafted like [TS]

00:04:15 ◼   ► instrument in which everything is done [TS]

00:04:18 ◼   ► with a purpose and everything has you [TS]

00:04:21 ◼   ► know is very cool Ike carefully [TS]

00:04:23 ◼   ► calculated it just it wasn't a medium [TS]

00:04:26 ◼   ► that ever spoke to me I admire those who [TS]

00:04:29 ◼   ► can who can craft it and wield it well [TS]

00:04:31 ◼   ► because it's not an easy thing to do but [TS]

00:04:34 ◼   ► I always really wanted to write longer [TS]

00:04:36 ◼   ► stories and so [TS]

00:04:38 ◼   ► over the years I've tried this in a [TS]

00:04:40 ◼   ► number of you know different attempts [TS]

00:04:41 ◼   ► and I think the furthest I got for a [TS]

00:04:43 ◼   ► long time was when I lived abroad for a [TS]

00:04:46 ◼   ► while in my junior year of college I [TS]

00:04:47 ◼   ► think I got like maybe like twenty ten [TS]

00:04:50 ◼   ► twenty thousand words into a story [TS]

00:04:52 ◼   ► before realizing like I didn't really [TS]

00:04:54 ◼   ► know what I was doing I didn't know [TS]

00:04:56 ◼   ► where the plot was going I was just sort [TS]

00:04:58 ◼   ► of putting one word after another and [TS]

00:05:00 ◼   ► and sometimes that works but in this [TS]

00:05:01 ◼   ► case I felt like realizing all the [TS]

00:05:03 ◼   ► pacing was off and this story wasn't you [TS]

00:05:05 ◼   ► know quite firing correctly so I ditched [TS]

00:05:09 ◼   ► that but that was an idea that I had [TS]

00:05:10 ◼   ► been working on since probably like [TS]

00:05:13 ◼   ► after my freshman year of college and so [TS]

00:05:16 ◼   ► after a couple years after I graduated [TS]

00:05:18 ◼   ► college I was working as a web developer [TS]

00:05:20 ◼   ► and an IT guy and I got kind of sick of [TS]

00:05:24 ◼   ► that job and I thought you know I've [TS]

00:05:25 ◼   ► always wanted to actually sit down and [TS]

00:05:27 ◼   ► finish a novel and so I started working [TS]

00:05:29 ◼   ► again on that idea and I started from [TS]

00:05:32 ◼   ► scratch and I worked on it like my spare [TS]

00:05:35 ◼   ► time you know around my job at night [TS]

00:05:39 ◼   ► weekend's etc and my favorite story [TS]

00:05:42 ◼   ► about that novel is that I finished that [TS]

00:05:44 ◼   ► novel I liked I got to a point where I [TS]

00:05:46 ◼   ► want to say was maybe August of 2004 or [TS]

00:05:49 ◼   ► so and I I sort of was like I had gotten [TS]

00:05:55 ◼   ► close enough I knew where the end was [TS]

00:05:56 ◼   ► you know and I was very close to it and [TS]

00:05:58 ◼   ► I remember that one day I realized you [TS]

00:06:00 ◼   ► know okay I'm this is this is the last [TS]

00:06:02 ◼   ► chapter like I know where I am and I can [TS]

00:06:04 ◼   ► finish this in like another couple [TS]

00:06:05 ◼   ► thousand words and I was at work it was [TS]

00:06:08 ◼   ► a Friday and it was the middle of the [TS]

00:06:09 ◼   ► summer in August and there was nothing [TS]

00:06:11 ◼   ► going on so I sort of looked around [TS]

00:06:12 ◼   ► realized nobody is paying any attention [TS]

00:06:14 ◼   ► to me that nobody's in the office a lot [TS]

00:06:16 ◼   ► of people on vacation so I fired up my [TS]

00:06:18 ◼   ► word processor and I like I know exactly [TS]

00:06:20 ◼   ► what I need to write and I like banged [TS]

00:06:21 ◼   ► out the last couple thousand words of [TS]

00:06:22 ◼   ► that novel while sitting at my desk [TS]

00:06:24 ◼   ► Clow and that was the first thing I ever [TS]

00:06:26 ◼   ► finished it like I remember sitting back [TS]

00:06:28 ◼   ► and just like looking at going like oh [TS]

00:06:29 ◼   ► my god I actually did it I actually [TS]

00:06:31 ◼   ► finished a novel and and that was [TS]

00:06:35 ◼   ► mind-blowing to me at 24 this thing that [TS]

00:06:38 ◼   ► I had been you know thinking my entire [TS]

00:06:40 ◼   ► life I something I wanted to do but I [TS]

00:06:42 ◼   ► wasn't sure I would ever actually be [TS]

00:06:44 ◼   ► able to do it so what what uh what novel [TS]

00:06:49 ◼   ► is that is that something I've read or [TS]

00:06:50 ◼   ► was that something that was just [TS]

00:06:51 ◼   ► shook your head up deed something that [TS]

00:06:53 ◼   ► you read is the driver that is the [TS]

00:06:56 ◼   ► driver series uh-huh and I think I've [TS]

00:06:59 ◼   ► got a copy here unfortunately um yeah I [TS]

00:07:01 ◼   ► don't know unfortunately not not gonna [TS]

00:07:04 ◼   ► read it [TS]

00:07:04 ◼   ► um yeah I'm trying to find if I have [TS]

00:07:06 ◼   ► like fortunately it was all written in [TS]

00:07:08 ◼   ► like Apple works or something so some of [TS]

00:07:11 ◼   ► these formats may be a little a little [TS]

00:07:13 ◼   ► past their prime [TS]

00:07:14 ◼   ► yeah so this was a post-apocalyptic [TS]

00:07:16 ◼   ► series which involved a the main [TS]

00:07:20 ◼   ► character was a driver he had a car [TS]

00:07:22 ◼   ► essentially and there were two main [TS]

00:07:24 ◼   ► characters one was this this driver [TS]

00:07:26 ◼   ► named Nathan and the other one was a [TS]

00:07:28 ◼   ► young woman named Ellen and it was sort [TS]

00:07:31 ◼   ► of you know everything everything goes [TS]

00:07:33 ◼   ► back to Star Wars with me Jason this was [TS]

00:07:36 ◼   ► kind of an attempt to do a post a [TS]

00:07:37 ◼   ► post-apocalyptic novel that was very [TS]

00:07:39 ◼   ► much the hero's journey and I fell into [TS]

00:07:42 ◼   ► some of my love of Star Wars it was I [TS]

00:07:44 ◼   ► had that's that's my memory of it [TS]

00:07:45 ◼   ► because I did read it and that is my [TS]

00:07:47 ◼   ► memory of it is that it was very it was [TS]

00:07:49 ◼   ► very hero's journey very Star Wars [TS]

00:07:51 ◼   ► except set in this kind of earthbound [TS]

00:07:53 ◼   ► post-apocalyptic setting but very Star [TS]

00:07:56 ◼   ► Wars right down to you know kind of [TS]

00:07:58 ◼   ► wizards and dark forces and things like [TS]

00:08:01 ◼   ► that officer and I and everything I know [TS]

00:08:03 ◼   ► so he was envisioned as a trilogy as is [TS]

00:08:05 ◼   ► all fantasy stories Rudy obligated to be [TS]

00:08:08 ◼   ► and I ended up I finished that one and [TS]

00:08:11 ◼   ► around the time I finished that up or [TS]

00:08:13 ◼   ► shortly thereafter was when I decided to [TS]

00:08:15 ◼   ► leave my computer job and I did that by [TS]

00:08:18 ◼   ► going I quit and I went to Ireland for a [TS]

00:08:21 ◼   ► month actually with uh my friend Tony [TS]

00:08:23 ◼   ► Sindelar yeah who was incomparable [TS]

00:08:25 ◼   ► panelist he and I traveled around for a [TS]

00:08:27 ◼   ► little bit [TS]

00:08:28 ◼   ► with another friend of ours and during [TS]

00:08:30 ◼   ► that time I started jotting down notes [TS]

00:08:31 ◼   ► for the second book in that series I [TS]

00:08:34 ◼   ► will note that you know not to not to [TS]

00:08:37 ◼   ► discourage anybody but in general if [TS]

00:08:39 ◼   ► you're like thinking from an actual [TS]

00:08:40 ◼   ► practical like business point of view [TS]

00:08:42 ◼   ► don't do that [TS]

00:08:43 ◼   ► yeah because if you start in on a second [TS]

00:08:46 ◼   ► book and the first book never sells then [TS]

00:08:48 ◼   ► you've basically written a book that is [TS]

00:08:50 ◼   ► not going to be saleable in its own [TS]

00:08:52 ◼   ► right because you've written the middle [TS]

00:08:53 ◼   ► of a story unless you're very very lucky [TS]

00:08:55 ◼   ► it's real and you're like lois mcmaster [TS]

00:08:58 ◼   ► bujold did that right where where she [TS]

00:09:01 ◼   ► wrote what ended up being um [TS]

00:09:05 ◼   ► the to Cordelia's honor is the is the [TS]

00:09:09 ◼   ► the the omnibus version but she ended up [TS]

00:09:11 ◼   ► writing one of those and putting it [TS]

00:09:15 ◼   ► aside and then writing another book in [TS]

00:09:17 ◼   ► the universe but it wasn't a direct [TS]

00:09:18 ◼   ► continuation right right now would be [TS]

00:09:20 ◼   ► like if yeah this would be like if you [TS]

00:09:22 ◼   ► know George Lucas had made Empire [TS]

00:09:23 ◼   ► Strikes Back like me which is a great [TS]

00:09:25 ◼   ► movie but like trying to sell that [TS]

00:09:26 ◼   ► without having Star Wars you know before [TS]

00:09:29 ◼   ► it seems tough yeah and so you know it [TS]

00:09:33 ◼   ► was good for me I'm glad that I did it [TS]

00:09:34 ◼   ► because I learned a lot I felt like in [TS]

00:09:36 ◼   ► that series every like I just kept [TS]

00:09:38 ◼   ► getting better it was about honing my [TS]

00:09:40 ◼   ► craft I felt like it really helped me [TS]

00:09:42 ◼   ► improve and it was it was doing it which [TS]

00:09:45 ◼   ► is the most important thing right it was [TS]

00:09:47 ◼   ► not like sitting around thinking about [TS]

00:09:49 ◼   ► how do I uh man I wonder figure out a [TS]

00:09:51 ◼   ► novel no it was actually sitting down [TS]

00:09:52 ◼   ► putting words on a page and you know in [TS]

00:09:54 ◼   ► some ways there's you never lose out if [TS]

00:09:56 ◼   ► you're if you're putting words on the [TS]

00:09:58 ◼   ► page even if those words don't end up [TS]

00:09:59 ◼   ► you know turning into something at least [TS]

00:10:02 ◼   ► you you've done it it's like you know [TS]

00:10:03 ◼   ► you've gone to the gym essentially [TS]

00:10:05 ◼   ► you've exercised your creative skills so [TS]

00:10:08 ◼   ► and it's true did you do NaNoWriMo I did [TS]

00:10:11 ◼   ► at several times a four or five times I [TS]

00:10:14 ◼   ► think that I actually finished it maybe [TS]

00:10:16 ◼   ► more I don't remember um I worked on a [TS]

00:10:19 ◼   ► couple different projects none of these [TS]

00:10:21 ◼   ► were directly connected to this I want [TS]

00:10:23 ◼   ► to say I have like 50,000 words of like [TS]

00:10:26 ◼   ► a why a sci-fi novel somewhere that I [TS]

00:10:28 ◼   ► worked on I have a hundred thousand word [TS]

00:10:31 ◼   ► like sort of like literary quote unquote [TS]

00:10:34 ◼   ► literary novel that I wrote which was [TS]

00:10:36 ◼   ► like wow semi autobiographical thing [TS]

00:10:39 ◼   ► that I wrote which I basically I did two [TS]

00:10:40 ◼   ► years of that so yeah I did the first [TS]

00:10:42 ◼   ► half of one year in second half and all [TS]

00:10:43 ◼   ► of my all of my NaNoWriMo is like that I [TS]

00:10:45 ◼   ► was just looking it up actually while we [TS]

00:10:47 ◼   ► were talking because I wanted to figure [TS]

00:10:48 ◼   ► out what what the three because I've [TS]

00:10:49 ◼   ► written three novel in manuscripts and I [TS]

00:10:52 ◼   ► wrote them all in blocks over to [TS]

00:10:55 ◼   ► NaNoWriMo years and so that because I'm [TS]

00:10:58 ◼   ► I answered the question of when what did [TS]

00:11:00 ◼   ► I first finish a novel manuscript was [TS]

00:11:03 ◼   ► was almost ten years ago it was November [TS]

00:11:06 ◼   ► 2007 because I did NaNoWriMo in 2006 and [TS]

00:11:09 ◼   ► then finished that novel actually wrote [TS]

00:11:11 ◼   ► during the year too and then finished [TS]

00:11:13 ◼   ► the novel in in November 2007 because [TS]

00:11:15 ◼   ► that manuscript like 150,000 words long [TS]

00:11:18 ◼   ► and and so it's 250 thousand word blocks [TS]

00:11:20 ◼   ► and then I did like in February I did my [TS]

00:11:22 ◼   ► own little NaNoWriMo but you know a long [TS]

00:11:24 ◼   ► time now and then and then I've got two [TS]

00:11:25 ◼   ► others in a drawer but it goes to your [TS]

00:11:27 ◼   ► point about going to the gym that [TS]

00:11:30 ◼   ► NaNoWriMo and full disclosure I'm on the [TS]

00:11:33 ◼   ► board of NaNoWriMo it's a nonprofit that [TS]

00:11:35 ◼   ► runs the event and I because I believe [TS]

00:11:37 ◼   ► in it but one of the things I really [TS]

00:11:39 ◼   ► believe about it is you can see that the [TS]

00:11:43 ◼   ► more you do it the more the rust falls [TS]

00:11:44 ◼   ► off and the more it doesn't become [TS]

00:11:46 ◼   ► easier but you it becomes you become [TS]

00:11:48 ◼   ► more capable of doing it and it's it's [TS]

00:11:51 ◼   ► no wonder that when you talk to a lot of [TS]

00:11:53 ◼   ► writers not all writers but a lot of [TS]

00:11:54 ◼   ► productive novelists like Stephen King [TS]

00:11:55 ◼   ► the number that they say in terms of [TS]

00:11:58 ◼   ► word count that they basically do in a [TS]

00:11:59 ◼   ► day is not that far off from the [TS]

00:12:02 ◼   ► NaNoWriMo word count it's basically the [TS]

00:12:04 ◼   ► if you were a novelist you would write [TS]

00:12:07 ◼   ► you know fifteen hundred words a day and [TS]

00:12:09 ◼   ► you would be productive and the truth is [TS]

00:12:11 ◼   ► that doesn't sound like a lot to me [TS]

00:12:13 ◼   ► because I can write a I can pick out a [TS]

00:12:15 ◼   ► Macworld column at 1,200 words the other [TS]

00:12:19 ◼   ► day in a few hours but novel writing is [TS]

00:12:22 ◼   ► harder than writing a column I find [TS]

00:12:24 ◼   ► because you've got to keep your plot in [TS]

00:12:25 ◼   ► your head and your characters and [TS]

00:12:26 ◼   ► there's a lot more going on there but [TS]

00:12:28 ◼   ► the the my point is if you keep up that [TS]

00:12:31 ◼   ► pace every day for a month [TS]

00:12:33 ◼   ► you've got fifty thousand words if you [TS]

00:12:35 ◼   ► did it every day for two months you've [TS]

00:12:37 ◼   ► basically got a normal sized novel and [TS]

00:12:39 ◼   ► you can imagine that although it's not [TS]

00:12:40 ◼   ► realistic even if you're Stephen King [TS]

00:12:42 ◼   ► that means that if you wrote every day [TS]

00:12:44 ◼   ► for a few hours you know in the span [TS]

00:12:47 ◼   ► it's not like for 12 or 15 hours but [TS]

00:12:50 ◼   ► like maybe for eight hours or six hours [TS]

00:12:52 ◼   ► you could potentially write like six [TS]

00:12:55 ◼   ► novels in a year now you wouldn't [TS]

00:12:57 ◼   ► because you'd want to revise and other [TS]

00:12:59 ◼   ► things but it's like it's all once you [TS]

00:13:01 ◼   ► start to take the beyond the first step [TS]

00:13:03 ◼   ► in the in the journey right the first [TS]

00:13:05 ◼   ► step in the marathon you got to take the [TS]

00:13:08 ◼   ► first step and then you take the next [TS]

00:13:10 ◼   ► step and it's a process that leads to [TS]

00:13:12 ◼   ► the end yeah you can't I mean no one's [TS]

00:13:15 ◼   ► sitting down and writing a novel in a [TS]

00:13:16 ◼   ► day probably maybe someone's done that [TS]

00:13:19 ◼   ► but a very bad no it's probably not [TS]

00:13:21 ◼   ► great you know so you know it is a that [TS]

00:13:24 ◼   ► is I think the thing is daunting about [TS]

00:13:25 ◼   ► it right it's a commitment you know just [TS]

00:13:27 ◼   ► like driving for a 5k or something right [TS]

00:13:29 ◼   ► I always like it marathon or a 5 or 10k [TS]

00:13:32 ◼   ► or some other kind of personal [TS]

00:13:34 ◼   ► achievement kind of in climbing a [TS]

00:13:35 ◼   ► mountain it's kind of like that yeah [TS]

00:13:37 ◼   ► yeah a marathon probably closer because [TS]

00:13:39 ◼   ► like there are people who can go out and [TS]

00:13:40 ◼   ► run a 5k without working you know [TS]

00:13:42 ◼   ► without prepping themselves no sweat but [TS]

00:13:45 ◼   ► a marathon is everybody has to train for [TS]

00:13:47 ◼   ► a marathon [TS]

00:13:47 ◼   ► yeah even even fantastic marathon [TS]

00:13:49 ◼   ► runners yeah so it's it's a gradual [TS]

00:13:52 ◼   ► process and you know between NaNoWriMo [TS]

00:13:54 ◼   ► and writing some other stuff on the side [TS]

00:13:55 ◼   ► you know I once asked I was at a book [TS]

00:13:58 ◼   ► signing for Neil Stevenson and asked you [TS]

00:14:02 ◼   ► know for his advice and his advice to me [TS]

00:14:04 ◼   ► was and I think he may have said this [TS]

00:14:05 ◼   ► house for two it was right 10,000 pages [TS]

00:14:07 ◼   ► and throw him out and I feel like I got [TS]

00:14:10 ◼   ► pretty good I don't know if I wrote [TS]

00:14:11 ◼   ► 10,000 pages throw him out but I wrote a [TS]

00:14:13 ◼   ► lot of pages that are you know never [TS]

00:14:15 ◼   ► gonna see the light of day basically [TS]

00:14:16 ◼   ► yeah and so along those lines you know I [TS]

00:14:20 ◼   ► worked on the sequel to that to that [TS]

00:14:22 ◼   ► post-apocalyptic book I started in on [TS]

00:14:24 ◼   ► the third book and never finished it as [TS]

00:14:27 ◼   ► you know because you read the first two [TS]

00:14:28 ◼   ► yeah and I know how it ends but I just [TS]

00:14:31 ◼   ► like there's no point to writing it [TS]

00:14:32 ◼   ► because I so that the forestay John has [TS]

00:14:34 ◼   ► to tell me how it ends I'll tell you how [TS]

00:14:36 ◼   ► it ends tell me Oh Ned's george RR [TS]

00:14:39 ◼   ► martin as it's in my head but one of the [TS]

00:14:41 ◼   ► funny things about that which I dug out [TS]

00:14:43 ◼   ► around the time that I got my agent was [TS]

00:14:45 ◼   ► I submitted that to my current now [TS]

00:14:46 ◼   ► current agent and he turned it down [TS]

00:14:49 ◼   ► I submitted to a few places and did not [TS]

00:14:51 ◼   ► get you know nobody nobody wanted to [TS]

00:14:54 ◼   ► take me on as a client on the basis of [TS]

00:14:56 ◼   ► that write manuscript and probably [TS]

00:14:59 ◼   ► rightly so because you know I wrote it [TS]

00:15:01 ◼   ► when I was 24 I had never written a [TS]

00:15:02 ◼   ► novel before I didn't really know what I [TS]

00:15:04 ◼   ► was doing and it's not to say that that [TS]

00:15:05 ◼   ► thing could not be turned into a [TS]

00:15:08 ◼   ► workable novel but it was gonna you know [TS]

00:15:11 ◼   ► it's like a house that needs to be taken [TS]

00:15:12 ◼   ► down to the study you probably just just [TS]

00:15:14 ◼   ► need to be ripped and probably start [TS]

00:15:15 ◼   ► over yeah I mean I I've mentioned to you [TS]

00:15:18 ◼   ► recently I like I think there are some [TS]

00:15:20 ◼   ► some cool ideas in there that I might [TS]

00:15:21 ◼   ► steal for for future stories so that's [TS]

00:15:25 ◼   ► why I won't self-published them probably [TS]

00:15:28 ◼   ► because I feel like they're still [TS]

00:15:29 ◼   ► utility of them and also self-publishing [TS]

00:15:31 ◼   ► stuff that you wrote 24 feel like [TS]

00:15:33 ◼   ► doesn't really help your your eyebrow [TS]

00:15:35 ◼   ► has it worked now if you if you end up [TS]

00:15:38 ◼   ► on a roll where they're publishing your [TS]

00:15:40 ◼   ► novels that's the time you dust that off [TS]

00:15:41 ◼   ► and again you probably strip it for [TS]

00:15:43 ◼   ► parts [TS]

00:15:43 ◼   ► oh yeah [TS]

00:15:44 ◼   ► anything else so how long ago did the [TS]

00:15:49 ◼   ► did the idea for what became Caledonian [TS]

00:15:53 ◼   ► gambit popped into your head and then [TS]

00:15:55 ◼   ► what was the journey from there to [TS]

00:15:56 ◼   ► actually having a finished manuscript to [TS]

00:15:58 ◼   ► email me about I was thinking about this [TS]

00:16:01 ◼   ► and I went back and fortunately I'm a [TS]

00:16:02 ◼   ► digital pack rat so I keep everything so [TS]

00:16:04 ◼   ► I was looking through my sort of old [TS]

00:16:07 ◼   ► writing folder and I have a document [TS]

00:16:09 ◼   ► called Eli dot cwk which is an Apple [TS]

00:16:13 ◼   ► works document and it de is dated May [TS]

00:16:16 ◼   ► 20th [TS]

00:16:17 ◼   ► hey that's tomorrow 2002 so 15 years ago [TS]

00:16:22 ◼   ► years ago tomorrow as we record this oh [TS]

00:16:25 ◼   ► yeah from years ago 15 years ago almost [TS]

00:16:27 ◼   ► to the day of your publication day and [TS]

00:16:29 ◼   ► and I think that was probably the first [TS]

00:16:31 ◼   ► attempt to write a story I have notes [TS]

00:16:33 ◼   ► and I recently when I at some point dug [TS]

00:16:37 ◼   ► up my or cleaned a lot of stuff out of [TS]

00:16:40 ◼   ► my parents attic I found a bunch of my [TS]

00:16:42 ◼   ► notes from college and I found the [TS]

00:16:43 ◼   ► notebook in which I remembered I had [TS]

00:16:45 ◼   ► written started jotting down the ideas [TS]

00:16:47 ◼   ► for this story which was probably also [TS]

00:16:49 ◼   ► 2002 or so about second semester senior [TS]

00:16:52 ◼   ► year I think and that was because I had [TS]

00:16:54 ◼   ► just been given the Vorkosigan novels by [TS]

00:16:55 ◼   ► lois mcmaster bujold by my cousins and I [TS]

00:16:58 ◼   ► was so enamored with them that I wanted [TS]

00:17:01 ◼   ► to write a space opera that was similar [TS]

00:17:03 ◼   ► to to those in the idea of like [TS]

00:17:05 ◼   ► sprawling universe all these you know [TS]

00:17:08 ◼   ► different factions political intrigue [TS]

00:17:10 ◼   ► characters that grow and change [TS]

00:17:12 ◼   ► throughout the course of a series like I [TS]

00:17:14 ◼   ► was I I fell in love with those books [TS]

00:17:16 ◼   ► and I wanted you know as we all do when [TS]

00:17:18 ◼   ► we find something we really love and [TS]

00:17:20 ◼   ► it's not like we run out of it because [TS]

00:17:22 ◼   ► we consume all of it we're like what [TS]

00:17:23 ◼   ► there's no there's no more what what if [TS]

00:17:25 ◼   ► I could make more but like do my own [TS]

00:17:27 ◼   ► thing so yeah I started that's when I [TS]

00:17:30 ◼   ► started jotting down notes and stuff [TS]

00:17:32 ◼   ► changed obviously you know that 15 years [TS]

00:17:35 ◼   ► is a long road for a story most things [TS]

00:17:38 ◼   ► probably don't don't live that long as [TS]

00:17:41 ◼   ► an idea and this one I picked up and put [TS]

00:17:44 ◼   ► down a bunch and I think the current [TS]

00:17:46 ◼   ► version of it really dates back to [TS]

00:17:49 ◼   ► probably two thousand eight or nine so I [TS]

00:17:54 ◼   ► sent you in what 2010 we decided yep [TS]

00:17:56 ◼   ► yeah so 2008 [TS]

00:17:58 ◼   ► 9:00 at which point I was already [TS]

00:18:01 ◼   ► working for Macworld I don't know [TS]

00:18:05 ◼   ► I see how some of this I can't really [TS]

00:18:07 ◼   ► remember at this point honestly it's [TS]

00:18:08 ◼   ► been so long but I you know I was again [TS]

00:18:10 ◼   ► I was probably working on the side on [TS]

00:18:12 ◼   ► like nights and weekends [TS]

00:18:14 ◼   ► I don't think I did I like used [TS]

00:18:16 ◼   ► NaNoWriMo as an excuse for this one I [TS]

00:18:18 ◼   ► was actually looking at my Nana right Oh [TS]

00:18:19 ◼   ► a dashboard when you mentioned it and [TS]

00:18:20 ◼   ► realized none of my stuff's in there I [TS]

00:18:22 ◼   ► think they changed sites and they erased [TS]

00:18:24 ◼   ► their baby they wiped it out I only had [TS]

00:18:25 ◼   ► one in there for my last one of 2011 and [TS]

00:18:28 ◼   ► the rest weren't in there so I couldn't [TS]

00:18:30 ◼   ► close it sadly I don't I have no idea [TS]

00:18:32 ◼   ► the record is gone but yeah I've done um [TS]

00:18:37 ◼   ► you know I think NaNoWriMo is great as [TS]

00:18:39 ◼   ► we're just talking about for getting you [TS]

00:18:40 ◼   ► started and once you feel like hey I am [TS]

00:18:44 ◼   ► pretty confident what I'm doing you [TS]

00:18:46 ◼   ► realize you don't you don't need that is [TS]

00:18:48 ◼   ► a promise a crutch that's not you it's [TS]

00:18:51 ◼   ► little pejorative but like you can you [TS]

00:18:53 ◼   ► don't need the training wheels anymore [TS]

00:18:54 ◼   ► yeah like hey I know how to bike I can [TS]

00:18:56 ◼   ► do this you can do this all the time you [TS]

00:18:58 ◼   ► can internal to wait till November right [TS]

00:19:00 ◼   ► that way and so for me I got very [TS]

00:19:04 ◼   ► comfortable in writing all the time and [TS]

00:19:06 ◼   ► especially my day job at Macworld [TS]

00:19:07 ◼   ► involved writing a lot and so I was very [TS]

00:19:11 ◼   ► comfortable with it as like a process [TS]

00:19:13 ◼   ► and so I figured you know I want to [TS]

00:19:15 ◼   ► start back in and I got I think I was [TS]

00:19:17 ◼   ► working on the third book in that driver [TS]

00:19:18 ◼   ► series and I was like oh man I'm just [TS]

00:19:19 ◼   ► totally jammed up on this like I don't [TS]

00:19:21 ◼   ► really know what to what to do in it [TS]

00:19:22 ◼   ► first book didn't do you know didn't get [TS]

00:19:24 ◼   ► any bites and why am i working on the [TS]

00:19:27 ◼   ► third book of a trilogy if I can't sell [TS]

00:19:29 ◼   ► the first book and so I think it you [TS]

00:19:31 ◼   ► know at a certain point I I sort of had [TS]

00:19:33 ◼   ► to swallow my pride and be like that's [TS]

00:19:35 ◼   ► not going anywhere let's work on [TS]

00:19:36 ◼   ► something totally different and so I [TS]

00:19:38 ◼   ► wrote I think what I wrote was probably [TS]

00:19:41 ◼   ► the first thing I wrote was probably the [TS]

00:19:43 ◼   ► it might have been the prologue for this [TS]

00:19:46 ◼   ► book or ironically it might have been a [TS]

00:19:48 ◼   ► version of the first chapter of the [TS]

00:19:49 ◼   ► second book which will get to well house [TS]

00:19:53 ◼   ► indeed and we'll get so yeah 2008-2009 [TS]

00:19:57 ◼   ► was probably the first like when I [TS]

00:19:59 ◼   ► started in working on what eventually [TS]

00:20:02 ◼   ► become became the Caledonian gambit and [TS]

00:20:04 ◼   ► of course it changed a lot in that [TS]

00:20:06 ◼   ► period as even you saw in the time the [TS]

00:20:08 ◼   ► you know that you read it yeah it [TS]

00:20:11 ◼   ► definitely did [TS]

00:20:12 ◼   ► um the the so 2010 you send it to me and [TS]

00:20:16 ◼   ► I read it I remember reading it every [TS]

00:20:18 ◼   ► year for a few years there when the kids [TS]

00:20:21 ◼   ► were little we would go to this family [TS]

00:20:22 ◼   ► camp up in the woods in the Sierras and [TS]

00:20:24 ◼   ► I remember very distinctly sitting uh [TS]

00:20:29 ◼   ► reading I think on I think not on a [TS]

00:20:33 ◼   ► Kindle it might have been like on an [TS]

00:20:35 ◼   ► iPhone yeah [TS]

00:20:38 ◼   ► or actually could have been an iPad even [TS]

00:20:39 ◼   ► right Jen right maybe it was the [TS]

00:20:41 ◼   ► original iPad in iBooks I think that's [TS]

00:20:43 ◼   ► what I did and not a Kindle because the [TS]

00:20:45 ◼   ► Kindle that I had at that point had the [TS]

00:20:49 ◼   ► you know the stupid keyboard it's not [TS]

00:20:51 ◼   ► good anyway but I uh so the device isn't [TS]

00:20:53 ◼   ► clear but I know it was a digital device [TS]

00:20:54 ◼   ► and I was sitting there reading it like [TS]

00:20:56 ◼   ► in a in a lounge chair kind of thing one [TS]

00:21:00 ◼   ► of those like director Z chairs on dirt [TS]

00:21:03 ◼   ► surrounded by trees in the National [TS]

00:21:05 ◼   ► Forest in front of our tent cabin [TS]

00:21:07 ◼   ► probably drinking a beer and reading and [TS]

00:21:09 ◼   ► noting the book and I have a fond a fond [TS]

00:21:12 ◼   ► clear memory of reading and writing [TS]

00:21:14 ◼   ► notes about the book now you know [TS]

00:21:16 ◼   ► keeping in mind that my my kids were way [TS]

00:21:19 ◼   ► I mean it's been seven years right kids [TS]

00:21:21 ◼   ► have changed a lot more than you and I [TS]

00:21:22 ◼   ► have in the last seven years the and it [TS]

00:21:27 ◼   ► was it definitely hit me at the time [TS]

00:21:28 ◼   ► that knowing your love for the [TS]

00:21:31 ◼   ► Vorkosigan series and having read all of [TS]

00:21:33 ◼   ► those in a very short period of time [TS]

00:21:35 ◼   ► because of your recommendations [TS]

00:21:36 ◼   ► certainly I was reminded of of that kind [TS]

00:21:40 ◼   ► of style of thing this this is actually [TS]

00:21:42 ◼   ► two months before the incomparable by [TS]

00:21:44 ◼   ► the way yeah right right this predates [TS]

00:21:46 ◼   ► it so they insanely I just found a thank [TS]

00:21:48 ◼   ► God I used to keep a blog somewhere [TS]

00:21:50 ◼   ► I found a blog suggesting that I started [TS]

00:21:53 ◼   ► it in March 2009 so right that was out [TS]

00:21:56 ◼   ► Oh only about a year and a year and [TS]

00:21:59 ◼   ► change before I sent it to you yes so [TS]

00:22:01 ◼   ► you wrote wrote it across 2009 basically [TS]

00:22:04 ◼   ► in the beginning of 2010 that first [TS]

00:22:05 ◼   ► draft of it so I remember reading it I [TS]

00:22:08 ◼   ► remember I remember my notes of it a [TS]

00:22:12 ◼   ► little bit mostly that my complaint was [TS]

00:22:15 ◼   ► that your main character seemed like an [TS]

00:22:16 ◼   ► idiot yeah yeah yeah that's fair um I [TS]

00:22:22 ◼   ► I'm not sure how much I fixed that but I [TS]

00:22:24 ◼   ► hope no I don't I don't [TS]

00:22:26 ◼   ► feel that way anymore because I read I [TS]

00:22:27 ◼   ► read another draft of it much later and [TS]

00:22:29 ◼   ► no I mean it was just funny that was [TS]

00:22:32 ◼   ► that I remember that being one of my [TS]

00:22:33 ◼   ► main I mean I found a bunch of little [TS]

00:22:35 ◼   ► things I think about like oh I what [TS]

00:22:36 ◼   ► about this and this seems to consistent [TS]

00:22:38 ◼   ► in all of that but what my overarching [TS]

00:22:41 ◼   ► thing I think was that I had some [TS]

00:22:43 ◼   ► confusion about the two viewpoints [TS]

00:22:44 ◼   ► because there are sort of two viewpoint [TS]

00:22:46 ◼   ► characters in the book and my [TS]

00:22:48 ◼   ► frustration that your main character [TS]

00:22:50 ◼   ► seemed to be a little bit passive and [TS]

00:22:53 ◼   ► got a little bit taken advantage of by [TS]

00:22:55 ◼   ► other characters to the point like I [TS]

00:22:56 ◼   ► wanted to see him sort of like have more [TS]

00:22:58 ◼   ► struggle or or or feel you know figure [TS]

00:23:02 ◼   ► things out a little bit back a little [TS]

00:23:05 ◼   ► yeah because he just seemed like he was [TS]

00:23:06 ◼   ► giving because I mean the story in broad [TS]

00:23:08 ◼   ► strokes without spoiling it you end up [TS]

00:23:10 ◼   ► with this your main character kind of [TS]

00:23:12 ◼   ► has a homecoming that's kind of a [TS]

00:23:13 ◼   ► reluctant homecoming and it we as we [TS]

00:23:16 ◼   ► learn more about his family life and his [TS]

00:23:18 ◼   ► life back where he grew up you can see [TS]

00:23:21 ◼   ► that there's some very strong [TS]

00:23:22 ◼   ► personalities and you can see why he [TS]

00:23:24 ◼   ► left [TS]

00:23:25 ◼   ► honestly you see why he left and I think [TS]

00:23:28 ◼   ► the challenge in the first rap that I [TS]

00:23:29 ◼   ► had was that when he returns back it [TS]

00:23:32 ◼   ► feels like he's just going back to being [TS]

00:23:34 ◼   ► ping ponged around by these other people [TS]

00:23:36 ◼   ► in his life and I think I think in the [TS]

00:23:38 ◼   ► final version that isn't there that that [TS]

00:23:41 ◼   ► you see why he left and and why there [TS]

00:23:44 ◼   ► are all these issues but you also see [TS]

00:23:47 ◼   ► that he's his own person and he's making [TS]

00:23:49 ◼   ► his own decisions and he's he's not kind [TS]

00:23:52 ◼   ► of like there occasionally he's hapless [TS]

00:23:55 ◼   ► because he's learning about this new [TS]

00:23:56 ◼   ► kind of world that's opened up to him [TS]

00:23:57 ◼   ► but he's never dumb about it like he the [TS]

00:24:00 ◼   ► decisions he makes or the things he gets [TS]

00:24:03 ◼   ► steered into I don't feel like he's [TS]

00:24:05 ◼   ► doing it because he's been cowed or [TS]

00:24:08 ◼   ► because he's clueless and that that was [TS]

00:24:09 ◼   ► a for me that was like one of the key [TS]

00:24:11 ◼   ► points is I want to root for this guy [TS]

00:24:12 ◼   ► but every time he does something I was [TS]

00:24:14 ◼   ► thinking you idiot why are you doing [TS]

00:24:16 ◼   ► that and I think that and that's a [TS]

00:24:18 ◼   ► subtle thing but I think you managed to [TS]

00:24:19 ◼   ► navigate that a little bit in making him [TS]

00:24:21 ◼   ► see him a little bit well you know more [TS]

00:24:23 ◼   ► capable and and like when he get when he [TS]

00:24:25 ◼   ► does something that is dumb he does it [TS]

00:24:27 ◼   ► for reasons right it's not it really [TS]

00:24:29 ◼   ► turn out to be a regrettable later but [TS]

00:24:31 ◼   ► he does it for good reasons well the [TS]

00:24:33 ◼   ► thing and it's the thing we often [TS]

00:24:34 ◼   ► complain about you know when we critique [TS]

00:24:36 ◼   ► television shows for example or other [TS]

00:24:38 ◼   ► things where people do things that [TS]

00:24:40 ◼   ► think are dumb and the Emmy we always [TS]

00:24:42 ◼   ► like why did you do that and then the [TS]

00:24:43 ◼   ► answer it's like because that's what the [TS]

00:24:45 ◼   ► script told them to do right you don't [TS]

00:24:46 ◼   ► want you don't ever feel like you're [TS]

00:24:48 ◼   ► your character is doing something [TS]

00:24:49 ◼   ► because the plot demands that they do [TS]

00:24:52 ◼   ► this thing even though it makes no sense [TS]

00:24:54 ◼   ► right like even if they're going to do [TS]

00:24:55 ◼   ► something dumb or make a mistake which [TS]

00:24:57 ◼   ► characters have to do because they're [TS]

00:24:58 ◼   ► flawed and that's what makes stories [TS]

00:25:00 ◼   ► interesting is conflict and mistakes and [TS]

00:25:02 ◼   ► and that's our jazz you want to make it [TS]

00:25:05 ◼   ► make it seem like there was a reason [TS]

00:25:07 ◼   ► there was a rationale even if it was a [TS]

00:25:09 ◼   ► bad rationale there was a reason that [TS]

00:25:11 ◼   ► they did what they did yeah right like [TS]

00:25:13 ◼   ► this character is put under pressure in [TS]

00:25:15 ◼   ► a certain way psychological pressure [TS]

00:25:16 ◼   ► physical pressure and they react and as [TS]

00:25:19 ◼   ► long as it makes sense because because I [TS]

00:25:22 ◼   ► mean also a subtle thing right is you [TS]

00:25:24 ◼   ► don't want you want people to like your [TS]

00:25:26 ◼   ► protagonist right yeah and not feel [TS]

00:25:28 ◼   ► unless you're writing a like a detective [TS]

00:25:31 ◼   ► that's deliberately unlikable well you [TS]

00:25:32 ◼   ► wanna be yeah you wanna understand why [TS]

00:25:34 ◼   ► they do what they do and and be and [TS]

00:25:35 ◼   ► identify them in some with them in some [TS]

00:25:38 ◼   ► way and and if if if you like come on [TS]

00:25:41 ◼   ► dummy why did you do that that's not you [TS]

00:25:43 ◼   ► takes you out of the story so that I [TS]

00:25:45 ◼   ► remember that and definitely I was that [TS]

00:25:47 ◼   ► was a change that that made I don't know [TS]

00:25:49 ◼   ► what else you want to talk about about [TS]

00:25:50 ◼   ► the changes that you made along the way [TS]

00:25:52 ◼   ► because I know that there was a [TS]

00:25:53 ◼   ► different you know you kind of backed up [TS]

00:25:55 ◼   ► the opening of the book at one point and [TS]

00:25:57 ◼   ► then you kind of the final the final [TS]

00:25:59 ◼   ► book opens very much like the the draft [TS]

00:26:01 ◼   ► I read was you can went there and then [TS]

00:26:03 ◼   ► went away from it it went through some [TS]

00:26:05 ◼   ► changes and so a lot of these came as a [TS]

00:26:06 ◼   ► result of getting a working with the man [TS]

00:26:10 ◼   ► who is now my agent so let's let's and [TS]

00:26:12 ◼   ► let's let's talk about that yeah let's [TS]

00:26:14 ◼   ► talk about that for a moment so you did [TS]

00:26:16 ◼   ► ultimately get an agent what was that [TS]

00:26:18 ◼   ► process what happened with that so for [TS]

00:26:21 ◼   ► several years I was going to well I [TS]

00:26:23 ◼   ► guess I only went like once when I was [TS]

00:26:25 ◼   ► younger in like my mid-20s I went to vos [TS]

00:26:27 ◼   ► con which is a local science fiction con [TS]

00:26:29 ◼   ► and at the time I went which I think was [TS]

00:26:31 ◼   ► 2006 it was in downtown Boston it since [TS]

00:26:35 ◼   ► moved to the over near the Convention [TS]

00:26:37 ◼   ► Center but a you know it was just a [TS]

00:26:39 ◼   ► chance to like go and and see some [TS]

00:26:42 ◼   ► interesting writers george RR martin was [TS]

00:26:44 ◼   ► there cory doctorow was there I mean [TS]

00:26:45 ◼   ► people that you know I knew and admired [TS]

00:26:47 ◼   ► I also thought hey I've written a book [TS]

00:26:49 ◼   ► at this point like maybe this is an [TS]

00:26:51 ◼   ► interesting way to like network a little [TS]

00:26:53 ◼   ► bit [TS]

00:26:54 ◼   ► and so I went to try and do that and I [TS]

00:26:56 ◼   ► had an interesting experience and really [TS]

00:26:58 ◼   ► like felt like I came away opened up to [TS]

00:27:02 ◼   ► a new sort of slice of fandom right like [TS]

00:27:05 ◼   ► kansai not I've been to other like I've [TS]

00:27:07 ◼   ► been Somani made conventions some video [TS]

00:27:09 ◼   ► game convention stuff like that I've [TS]

00:27:11 ◼   ► been to Macworld like but there was not [TS]

00:27:13 ◼   ► I had never really been to a [TS]

00:27:16 ◼   ► science-fiction con and so that was an [TS]

00:27:17 ◼   ► interesting experience several years [TS]

00:27:18 ◼   ► later I sort of stopped going for a [TS]

00:27:20 ◼   ► while and then several years later I [TS]

00:27:21 ◼   ► went back and around 2000 G's 2012 [TS]

00:27:27 ◼   ► probably I so I had gone to boss Con in [TS]

00:27:32 ◼   ► February or so and I was looking at [TS]

00:27:36 ◼   ► panels and I saw a panel by a guy named [TS]

00:27:38 ◼   ► Mike Cole was a writer and I had read a [TS]

00:27:41 ◼   ► blog post by him I'm only a month or so [TS]

00:27:44 ◼   ► earlier maybe linked to by John Scalzi [TS]

00:27:46 ◼   ► or something talking about just how hard [TS]

00:27:49 ◼   ► it was to make a living as a full-time [TS]

00:27:52 ◼   ► writer which Mike was trying to do at [TS]

00:27:53 ◼   ► that point and he was Mike was very open [TS]

00:27:55 ◼   ► about like how his books were doing the [TS]

00:27:57 ◼   ► kind of money he was making you know the [TS]

00:27:59 ◼   ► fact that he wants to live in in you [TS]

00:28:01 ◼   ► know New York City and how like making [TS]

00:28:03 ◼   ► you know even with books that did pretty [TS]

00:28:05 ◼   ► well it was still really really uphill [TS]

00:28:09 ◼   ► climb and I thought it was fascinating [TS]

00:28:11 ◼   ► and it was also just you know it was not [TS]

00:28:14 ◼   ► a rosy picture but it was a picture that [TS]

00:28:16 ◼   ► said like you can do this it's just [TS]

00:28:18 ◼   ► gonna be really hard and so I went and [TS]

00:28:21 ◼   ► saw Mike on a panel and later on a lot [TS]

00:28:22 ◼   ► of these cons do these things called [TS]

00:28:23 ◼   ► coffee klatches where you just sort of [TS]

00:28:25 ◼   ► sit down at a table [TS]

00:28:26 ◼   ► yeah with someone and so I signed up for [TS]

00:28:28 ◼   ► Mike's and I sat down and we ended up [TS]

00:28:30 ◼   ► chatting and Mike again very generous [TS]

00:28:32 ◼   ► with his time was like hey you know as [TS]

00:28:33 ◼   ► soon as we sat down it's like I'm sure a [TS]

00:28:35 ◼   ► lot of you want to be writers and are [TS]

00:28:38 ◼   ► trying to figure out how to break in the [TS]

00:28:39 ◼   ► business so if you've got questions ask [TS]

00:28:41 ◼   ► me I will answer him I will tell you [TS]

00:28:43 ◼   ► anything and so we had a very [TS]

00:28:45 ◼   ► interesting discussion this whole coffee [TS]

00:28:46 ◼   ► table and and we were done I was talking [TS]

00:28:49 ◼   ► to Mike a little bit and he said like [TS]

00:28:50 ◼   ► yeah you seem like a like a nice guy [TS]

00:28:51 ◼   ► like you seem very like approachable [TS]

00:28:54 ◼   ► very personable like you can talk to [TS]

00:28:55 ◼   ► people whole like and you you know we [TS]

00:28:59 ◼   ► talked a little bit about like my book [TS]

00:29:00 ◼   ► and stuff and then his agent was man [TS]

00:29:02 ◼   ► named Joshua Vilnius walked up and [TS]

00:29:04 ◼   ► Joshua reps some pretty well-known [TS]

00:29:06 ◼   ► people [TS]

00:29:07 ◼   ► including Charlaine Harris who wrote the [TS]

00:29:09 ◼   ► stuff that True Blood is based on and [TS]

00:29:11 ◼   ► brand recently very very well-known [TS]

00:29:13 ◼   ► fancy author and Joshua and I started [TS]

00:29:15 ◼   ► talking and I mentioned it was very [TS]

00:29:17 ◼   ► helpful at that point mentioned I'm a [TS]

00:29:19 ◼   ► full time writer I'm a professional [TS]

00:29:20 ◼   ► writer right for a technology magazine [TS]

00:29:22 ◼   ► and we ended up chatting for a while and [TS]

00:29:25 ◼   ► discovered that like he was very [TS]

00:29:27 ◼   ► interested in like picking my brain [TS]

00:29:28 ◼   ► about technology stuff too and we had [TS]

00:29:30 ◼   ► some common interests we both avid [TS]

00:29:32 ◼   ► crossword doers and so we talked for a [TS]

00:29:35 ◼   ► while and at the end I said hey you know [TS]

00:29:36 ◼   ► I've got this book I would love to send [TS]

00:29:38 ◼   ► it to you can I do that he said sure and [TS]

00:29:39 ◼   ► he gave me his card night I sent it off [TS]

00:29:41 ◼   ► and he eventually read it and sent me [TS]

00:29:45 ◼   ► back a whole bunch of comments and his [TS]

00:29:50 ◼   ► comments were sort of like I've cut my [TS]

00:29:52 ◼   ► am look at the email now cuz I'm super [TS]

00:29:53 ◼   ► curious to say what he said at the time [TS]

00:29:54 ◼   ► it's like yeah it was it was really nice [TS]

00:29:57 ◼   ► to meet you I really get into the book [TS]

00:30:00 ◼   ► and then he talked about sort of like [TS]

00:30:03 ◼   ► you know he thought there was promise in [TS]

00:30:06 ◼   ► it and he thought like I could put some [TS]

00:30:07 ◼   ► sentences together there was just some [TS]

00:30:09 ◼   ► stuff that needs to be worked on [TS]

00:30:11 ◼   ► there were stuff that need to be cut [TS]

00:30:13 ◼   ► there was deadweight there was you know [TS]

00:30:15 ◼   ► stuff that was just kind of overwrought [TS]

00:30:18 ◼   ► and sort of killed his interest in it [TS]

00:30:20 ◼   ► and he said like well you know what this [TS]

00:30:23 ◼   ► this isn't problems here but there's you [TS]

00:30:25 ◼   ► know I looked at some of the other stuff [TS]

00:30:26 ◼   ► and it seems like there's some promise [TS]

00:30:29 ◼   ► so you know work on it I'd be interested [TS]

00:30:31 ◼   ► to take another look at some point now [TS]

00:30:34 ◼   ► that's huge I don't know you know to [TS]

00:30:37 ◼   ► talk to our audience for a second if [TS]

00:30:38 ◼   ► you've ever tried to write into an agent [TS]

00:30:40 ◼   ► and submit a manuscript most of the time [TS]

00:30:42 ◼   ► the best you can hope for is like a [TS]

00:30:44 ◼   ► pretty you know form response is just [TS]

00:30:46 ◼   ► like sorry this wasn't for me and I've [TS]

00:30:49 ◼   ► gotten my fair share of those both on [TS]

00:30:50 ◼   ► the editorial submissions as well as on [TS]

00:30:54 ◼   ► agents you know agent queries and you [TS]

00:30:57 ◼   ► know that's kind of disheartening right [TS]

00:30:59 ◼   ► like you know even if it's just it's not [TS]

00:31:01 ◼   ► for me it makes you feel it's rejection [TS]

00:31:02 ◼   ► right it's a bummer but to get something [TS]

00:31:06 ◼   ► back that was you know if not an [TS]

00:31:08 ◼   ► acceptance at least a I read this here [TS]

00:31:11 ◼   ► are bunch and I'm looking at this email [TS]

00:31:12 ◼   ► it's fairly long it's like a page long [TS]

00:31:14 ◼   ► and so you know with specific notes [TS]

00:31:17 ◼   ► about things to look at and the fact [TS]

00:31:20 ◼   ► that some [TS]

00:31:21 ◼   ► one who is as busy as he is took the [TS]

00:31:23 ◼   ► time to read through and give me [TS]

00:31:25 ◼   ► specific pointers was incredibly [TS]

00:31:29 ◼   ► generous and like incredibly you know he [TS]

00:31:33 ◼   ► was willing to commit his time to do [TS]

00:31:34 ◼   ► that and that is HUGE because it gave me [TS]

00:31:37 ◼   ► something to say like I all right yet [TS]

00:31:39 ◼   ► work that needs to be done here I can go [TS]

00:31:41 ◼   ► back and I can keep working on this and [TS]

00:31:43 ◼   ► he might be willing to look at another [TS]

00:31:46 ◼   ► draft on somebody who knows about novels [TS]

00:31:49 ◼   ► and how they were right and and and you [TS]

00:31:51 ◼   ► know he's viewing a also slightly [TS]

00:31:53 ◼   ► different perspective which is he's [TS]

00:31:55 ◼   ► viewing from the perspective not just if [TS]

00:31:56 ◼   ► somebody in the business and not [TS]

00:31:57 ◼   ► somebody who doesn't have any reason to [TS]

00:31:58 ◼   ► tell you that they're like your book but [TS]

00:32:01 ◼   ► also he's thinking not just if a novel [TS]

00:32:03 ◼   ► he likes he's thinking of novels that he [TS]

00:32:05 ◼   ► knows that have sold right and he's he's [TS]

00:32:08 ◼   ► also yeah he's also looking at you know [TS]

00:32:11 ◼   ► sometimes it's about the book but a lot [TS]

00:32:13 ◼   ► of times it's usually about the writer [TS]

00:32:14 ◼   ► which is to say if a agent looks at a [TS]

00:32:17 ◼   ► book and thinks this book you know it's [TS]

00:32:20 ◼   ► not for me but it's you know there's [TS]

00:32:22 ◼   ► clearly something this provide this [TS]

00:32:23 ◼   ► person who promised are duly surprised [TS]

00:32:25 ◼   ► like yeah you you sometimes they will [TS]

00:32:28 ◼   ► talk to you and work with you and you [TS]

00:32:30 ◼   ► know like maybe say like not this but [TS]

00:32:31 ◼   ► like when you've got something else let [TS]

00:32:33 ◼   ► me know [TS]

00:32:34 ◼   ► and so because they're looking you know [TS]

00:32:36 ◼   ► a good agent is looking for someone [TS]

00:32:39 ◼   ► who's gonna have a career right like [TS]

00:32:41 ◼   ► they don't want to sell a book they want [TS]

00:32:42 ◼   ► to sell a lot of books like and they [TS]

00:32:44 ◼   ► want you to have a long career in which [TS]

00:32:47 ◼   ► you're gonna sell a bunch of books [TS]

00:32:48 ◼   ► because that's how they make their money [TS]

00:32:49 ◼   ► right like they make a commission on [TS]

00:32:50 ◼   ► selling stuff right so they it's in [TS]

00:32:52 ◼   ► their best interest for you to have a [TS]

00:32:54 ◼   ► long and fruitful writing career in fact [TS]

00:32:56 ◼   ► it seems to me that that the business [TS]

00:32:58 ◼   ► model of many agents including yours is [TS]

00:33:00 ◼   ► you place a bunch of bets and absolutely [TS]

00:33:03 ◼   ► and some of them will hit and you get [TS]

00:33:05 ◼   ► your Brandon Sanderson and some of them [TS]

00:33:08 ◼   ► won't know they'll write they'll be okay [TS]

00:33:09 ◼   ► or they'll write a couple of books and [TS]

00:33:11 ◼   ► they won't really go anywhere but you [TS]

00:33:12 ◼   ► place the bets you find people that you [TS]

00:33:14 ◼   ► want to place a bet on and then see what [TS]

00:33:17 ◼   ► happens yeah I mean it's a lot like it's [TS]

00:33:19 ◼   ► a lot like a lot of the entertainment [TS]

00:33:21 ◼   ► industry like think about movies right [TS]

00:33:22 ◼   ► studios put out a bunch of movies a year [TS]

00:33:24 ◼   ► and they have those tentpoles where it's [TS]

00:33:26 ◼   ► like this is our like big blockbuster or [TS]

00:33:28 ◼   ► summer blockbuster it's going to make a [TS]

00:33:30 ◼   ► ton of money and we're going to use that [TS]

00:33:32 ◼   ► to essentially fund a lot of our other [TS]

00:33:35 ◼   ► yes that are maybe not going to make as [TS]

00:33:36 ◼   ► much money and so you know if you have a [TS]

00:33:39 ◼   ► huge client who does really well that [TS]

00:33:41 ◼   ► enables you to take chances on new [TS]

00:33:42 ◼   ► people and yeah like you said that might [TS]

00:33:45 ◼   ► pay off you might find the next Brandon [TS]

00:33:46 ◼   ► Sanderson you might find the next George [TS]

00:33:48 ◼   ► are Martin rights how you do it no [TS]

00:33:49 ◼   ► that's how you do it you can find start [TS]

00:33:51 ◼   ► and find talent and and identify it and [TS]

00:33:53 ◼   ► and so he gave you he gave you feedback [TS]

00:33:55 ◼   ► that let you go away and I mean I I did [TS]

00:33:58 ◼   ► something similar because I paid Saladin [TS]

00:34:00 ◼   ► Ahmed for a for a critique of my most [TS]

00:34:04 ◼   ► recent manuscript in it similarly it was [TS]

00:34:06 ◼   ► like it was a lot about this is too much [TS]

00:34:08 ◼   ► you got too much detail here this is a [TS]

00:34:10 ◼   ► waste you need to delete this you need [TS]

00:34:11 ◼   ► to change this and it was great because [TS]

00:34:13 ◼   ► again same thing right he has no reason [TS]

00:34:15 ◼   ► to do anything except give me the truth [TS]

00:34:17 ◼   ► and that's what I wanted from somebody [TS]

00:34:19 ◼   ► who's written an award-winning novel and [TS]

00:34:21 ◼   ► has taught creative writing and it's [TS]

00:34:23 ◼   ► like it's super valuable to get that [TS]

00:34:24 ◼   ► perspective so you take it away and then [TS]

00:34:27 ◼   ► then you spend how much time working on [TS]

00:34:30 ◼   ► the book after that a couple years yeah [TS]

00:34:33 ◼   ► because we saw we stayed in touch which [TS]

00:34:35 ◼   ► is great because he would send me emails [TS]

00:34:36 ◼   ► every once a while like often not about [TS]

00:34:38 ◼   ► book stuff at all he was some emails [TS]

00:34:39 ◼   ► about Matt like Apple stuff like because [TS]

00:34:41 ◼   ► he'd see you know me writing about you [TS]

00:34:43 ◼   ► know whatever announcements came out and [TS]

00:34:45 ◼   ► he would just shoot me these aleem ales [TS]

00:34:47 ◼   ► well I got what do you think about this [TS]

00:34:48 ◼   ► thing or we talk about crosswords or [TS]

00:34:50 ◼   ► stuff so like we end up kind of becoming [TS]

00:34:51 ◼   ► friends which was nice and then every [TS]

00:34:53 ◼   ► once awhile I would have a new draft and [TS]

00:34:55 ◼   ► I would send it over to him but I think [TS]

00:34:56 ◼   ► I you know it was basically back and [TS]

00:34:57 ◼   ► forth until I want to say it was 2015 it [TS]

00:35:02 ◼   ► was only a couple years ago at this [TS]

00:35:04 ◼   ► point that I'd gone back and forth with [TS]

00:35:06 ◼   ► him and one of his other agents at the [TS]

00:35:09 ◼   ► agency a Sam Morgan who is since left [TS]

00:35:11 ◼   ► the agency and is off doing his own [TS]

00:35:13 ◼   ► literary agent enough elsewhere and Sam [TS]

00:35:16 ◼   ► Joshua both gave me a bunch of great [TS]

00:35:19 ◼   ► like you know feedback as I went through [TS]

00:35:21 ◼   ► the drafts but it was it was a couple [TS]

00:35:23 ◼   ► years until I think it was summer 2015 [TS]

00:35:26 ◼   ► that I finally got the call like you [TS]

00:35:28 ◼   ► know what we we read this last draft [TS]

00:35:30 ◼   ► there's a couple minor things we want to [TS]

00:35:32 ◼   ► tweak but we think on the basis of this [TS]

00:35:33 ◼   ► it's good enough that we we'd love to [TS]

00:35:35 ◼   ► have you as a client and that was that [TS]

00:35:39 ◼   ► was probably like you know there's a lot [TS]

00:35:41 ◼   ► of moments where you get to like feel [TS]

00:35:42 ◼   ► like take the win right like celebrate [TS]

00:35:44 ◼   ► and I think that was for me that was [TS]

00:35:45 ◼   ► really the first one where it was like [TS]

00:35:47 ◼   ► I have not only did I get that that call [TS]

00:35:49 ◼   ► to say you know we want to bring you on [TS]

00:35:51 ◼   ► and we're going to try to sell this but [TS]

00:35:53 ◼   ► you know it was a testament to the fact [TS]

00:35:55 ◼   ► that my butt off for like two years you [TS]

00:35:58 ◼   ► know making all these changes and [TS]

00:36:00 ◼   ► revising and to it was a it was proof to [TS]

00:36:02 ◼   ► me that I could not only sit down and [TS]

00:36:05 ◼   ► write a novel as I did like finishing [TS]

00:36:06 ◼   ► that first one but that I could actually [TS]

00:36:08 ◼   ► then do the hard work because writing [TS]

00:36:12 ◼   ► you know putting one word in front of [TS]

00:36:14 ◼   ► the other seems hard but really it's [TS]

00:36:15 ◼   ► it's figuring out what order to put them [TS]

00:36:17 ◼   ► in as I always say and so the amount of [TS]

00:36:20 ◼   ► time you spent like writing that first [TS]

00:36:22 ◼   ► novel you know rewriting it is gonna be [TS]

00:36:23 ◼   ► more probably and it's harder if it [TS]

00:36:25 ◼   ► feels harder to be way harder it's like [TS]

00:36:28 ◼   ► playing Jenga right like it's like oh my [TS]

00:36:29 ◼   ► god if I take this brick out right here [TS]

00:36:31 ◼   ► with this whole thing fell fall over and [TS]

00:36:33 ◼   ► I think I tried to talk a little bit [TS]

00:36:36 ◼   ► about this in a talk I did once at a [TS]

00:36:37 ◼   ► singleton the conference in Montreal but [TS]

00:36:40 ◼   ► like it's it's trying to get yourself [TS]

00:36:42 ◼   ► out of that mindset that like oh my my [TS]

00:36:45 ◼   ► story is this delicate spiderweb and if [TS]

00:36:48 ◼   ► I break this one strand the whole thing [TS]

00:36:50 ◼   ► will fall apart and trying to get [TS]

00:36:52 ◼   ► yourself more into the mindset of my [TS]

00:36:54 ◼   ► story is like a like a piece of iron [TS]

00:36:56 ◼   ► that is being worked in a forge right [TS]

00:36:58 ◼   ► where you're hammering on it to make it [TS]

00:37:00 ◼   ► like temper it to make it stronger than [TS]

00:37:02 ◼   ► the thing that was or you know [TS]

00:37:04 ◼   ► originally rightly you take a sword and [TS]

00:37:05 ◼   ► it's all about folding the metal and [TS]

00:37:07 ◼   ► like hammering it and trying to [TS]

00:37:09 ◼   ► reinforce it to the point where it's [TS]

00:37:10 ◼   ► like it's not going to break immediately [TS]

00:37:12 ◼   ► and you can hammer on something pretty [TS]

00:37:13 ◼   ► hard and and try to sort of work it into [TS]

00:37:16 ◼   ► the right shape and and that's that's [TS]

00:37:19 ◼   ► what you're going for when you're [TS]

00:37:20 ◼   ► rewriting and otherwise like you just [TS]

00:37:23 ◼   ► sort of get paralyzed with fear that [TS]

00:37:25 ◼   ► anything that you change will break [TS]

00:37:27 ◼   ► everything yeah and it's not the case [TS]

00:37:29 ◼   ► stories are pretty resilient in that way [TS]

00:37:30 ◼   ► and you can always fix it is the good [TS]

00:37:32 ◼   ► news you got to be bold you got and yeah [TS]

00:37:34 ◼   ► that's the goods to your kill your [TS]

00:37:35 ◼   ► darlings thing to would you gold and not [TS]

00:37:38 ◼   ► be afraid that you're gonna roll over [TS]

00:37:39 ◼   ► something that maybe something you're [TS]

00:37:40 ◼   ► really proud of and but it doesn't fit [TS]

00:37:42 ◼   ► and so you just got to be I'm just [TS]

00:37:44 ◼   ► passionate about like it's gone yeah [TS]

00:37:46 ◼   ► yeah I mean sometimes there are things [TS]

00:37:48 ◼   ► that you should fight for that are good [TS]

00:37:49 ◼   ► and you know they're good and you got to [TS]

00:37:50 ◼   ► trust your gut and say like no this is [TS]

00:37:51 ◼   ► good I need to find a way to make this [TS]

00:37:53 ◼   ► work but yeah you can't get hung up on [TS]

00:37:56 ◼   ► that one thing that is preventing [TS]

00:37:58 ◼   ► everything else from working right like [TS]

00:38:00 ◼   ► if it's if it's one [TS]

00:38:00 ◼   ► thing preventing the rest of the story [TS]

00:38:02 ◼   ► from working that's got to go but if [TS]

00:38:04 ◼   ► it's one thing that's like oh it just [TS]

00:38:05 ◼   ► doesn't quite fit then you know figure [TS]

00:38:07 ◼   ► out a way to make it fit yeah but two [TS]

00:38:11 ◼   ► years yeah so two years until I got the [TS]

00:38:13 ◼   ► the deal for that I think actually you [TS]

00:38:15 ◼   ► know what that must have been right [TS]

00:38:16 ◼   ► before that was right before we were all [TS]

00:38:20 ◼   ► at sass one yeah 2015 right because I [TS]

00:38:23 ◼   ► met I met your agents and getting a task [TS]

00:38:26 ◼   ► one and and Josh said to me [TS]

00:38:29 ◼   ► what do you have in nonfiction I'm like [TS]

00:38:31 ◼   ► all I got a signed sci-fi novels - I [TS]

00:38:34 ◼   ► don't have any nonfiction for you it's [TS]

00:38:35 ◼   ► like I'm really excited about a little [TS]

00:38:36 ◼   ► about like a nonfiction narrative I'm [TS]

00:38:38 ◼   ► like oh man I can't yeah I I keep [TS]

00:38:41 ◼   ► thinking about it like I was fine I'll [TS]

00:38:43 ◼   ► have anything for that he's a he's a [TS]

00:38:44 ◼   ► character it was fun meeting those guys [TS]

00:38:46 ◼   ► and yes you got to go there and at least [TS]

00:38:48 ◼   ► be repped by an agent right yep and and [TS]

00:38:51 ◼   ► but the process wasn't over because you [TS]

00:38:53 ◼   ► had to make changes and things like that [TS]

00:38:54 ◼   ► and then they had to go through the [TS]

00:38:55 ◼   ► process of trying to sell your book yeah [TS]

00:38:57 ◼   ► and that's another whole long one - yeah [TS]

00:39:00 ◼   ► it's always like one it's like a video [TS]

00:39:01 ◼   ► game level you beat that level the next [TS]

00:39:03 ◼   ► level is harder right yeah and so you [TS]

00:39:05 ◼   ► know that basically involves sending out [TS]

00:39:07 ◼   ► you know they craft a query letter which [TS]

00:39:09 ◼   ► is basically kind of a lot like the [TS]

00:39:11 ◼   ► thing that you send to an agent right [TS]

00:39:12 ◼   ► when you're when you're trying to pitch [TS]

00:39:13 ◼   ► your book to them and but obviously they [TS]

00:39:16 ◼   ► have a little more experience of doing [TS]

00:39:17 ◼   ► this and they have relationships with [TS]

00:39:18 ◼   ► editors which is great and so we spent [TS]

00:39:20 ◼   ► some time working on a query letter for [TS]

00:39:22 ◼   ► the story you know full plot synopsis [TS]

00:39:24 ◼   ► describing it talking about me a little [TS]

00:39:26 ◼   ► bit and then sending that out to a bunch [TS]

00:39:28 ◼   ► editors and then you get the long period [TS]

00:39:30 ◼   ► of waiting for the editors to get back [TS]

00:39:31 ◼   ► and this is basically very similar to [TS]

00:39:34 ◼   ► like sending stuff out to agents which [TS]

00:39:35 ◼   ► is to say most editors are going to turn [TS]

00:39:38 ◼   ► you down could be for a variety of [TS]

00:39:40 ◼   ► reasons they might again maybe it's just [TS]

00:39:42 ◼   ► not a story that resonates with them [TS]

00:39:44 ◼   ► maybe it just doesn't fit in with like [TS]

00:39:47 ◼   ► their their what they're working on or [TS]

00:39:49 ◼   ► their marketing or their style or tone [TS]

00:39:51 ◼   ► any variety of things maybe they don't [TS]

00:39:53 ◼   ► have money for it [TS]

00:39:54 ◼   ► who knows and so we went through a lot [TS]

00:39:58 ◼   ► maybe somewhere between 10 15 different [TS]

00:40:02 ◼   ► publishers before we found the deal that [TS]

00:40:05 ◼   ► we wanted and I should mention actually [TS]

00:40:07 ◼   ► as an interesting part of this which is [TS]

00:40:08 ◼   ► something I forget sometimes probably [TS]

00:40:11 ◼   ► in-between me [TS]

00:40:14 ◼   ► the first draft of this and actually [TS]

00:40:18 ◼   ► getting signed by an agent I at one [TS]

00:40:22 ◼   ► point submitted this to the small [TS]

00:40:24 ◼   ► publisher called angry robot [TS]

00:40:26 ◼   ► uh-huh and they had a everyone smile [TS]

00:40:28 ◼   ► they hold open submissions and I sent my [TS]

00:40:30 ◼   ► book in for that and it got to the point [TS]

00:40:32 ◼   ► of they requested the whole manuscript [TS]

00:40:35 ◼   ► and and they did not eventually like you [TS]

00:40:40 ◼   ► know offer to buy it but they you know [TS]

00:40:43 ◼   ► it got pretty far in that process and [TS]

00:40:44 ◼   ► then some books came out I think um I [TS]

00:40:46 ◼   ► think was choose uh lives of Tao came [TS]

00:40:49 ◼   ► out of that so you know like their books [TS]

00:40:52 ◼   ► real books came out of that so I felt [TS]

00:40:54 ◼   ► like heartened by that that even though [TS]

00:40:56 ◼   ► they didn't want to buy it like it had [TS]

00:40:58 ◼   ► you know again past a certain sniff test [TS]

00:41:00 ◼   ► so that was exciting and in fact we [TS]

00:41:03 ◼   ► submitted to them you know when we were [TS]

00:41:05 ◼   ► doing eight submissions editorial they [TS]

00:41:07 ◼   ► still didn't buy it but hey that's fine [TS]

00:41:09 ◼   ► I like that's already yeah right someone [TS]

00:41:12 ◼   ► that actually I feel like maybe some of [TS]

00:41:13 ◼   ► them do you remember it I don't know I [TS]

00:41:15 ◼   ► felt like it got better in that time but [TS]

00:41:17 ◼   ► yeah you know not to get too much down [TS]

00:41:19 ◼   ► the weeds of the editorial process but [TS]

00:41:21 ◼   ► you get a lot of comments back I got [TS]

00:41:22 ◼   ► some very nice comments by people who [TS]

00:41:23 ◼   ► are like oh man I really there's things [TS]

00:41:25 ◼   ► I really like about this but ultimately [TS]

00:41:27 ◼   ► I just it didn't work for me in some way [TS]

00:41:28 ◼   ► or you know and like that's depressing [TS]

00:41:30 ◼   ► too because you're like wait what didn't [TS]

00:41:32 ◼   ► work what didn't work what can I fix but [TS]

00:41:35 ◼   ► you know you're just looking for the [TS]

00:41:36 ◼   ► right editor so what was the process of [TS]

00:41:39 ◼   ► finally you know did you get did you get [TS]

00:41:42 ◼   ► offers and and how did you make that you [TS]

00:41:45 ◼   ► know without getting you know I know you [TS]

00:41:46 ◼   ► don't one of the things you don't want [TS]

00:41:48 ◼   ► to disclose but like how did that had [TS]

00:41:49 ◼   ► the deal get made there we ended up [TS]

00:41:52 ◼   ► getting two offers both of which were [TS]

00:41:56 ◼   ► had their virtues and we ended up going [TS]

00:42:00 ◼   ► with the author from Talos press which [TS]

00:42:03 ◼   ► is a imprint of skyhorse and if just you [TS]

00:42:08 ◼   ► know some of that was was purely like a [TS]

00:42:10 ◼   ► business decision in terms of like you [TS]

00:42:12 ◼   ► know what they what the terms of the [TS]

00:42:13 ◼   ► offer were and so you know I ended up [TS]

00:42:16 ◼   ► I'm working with a editor there named [TS]

00:42:18 ◼   ► Jason Katzman and he seemed excited [TS]

00:42:21 ◼   ► about the book which was great and the [TS]

00:42:23 ◼   ► terms were were ones that were [TS]

00:42:26 ◼   ► you know Amina Bowl to all parties so we [TS]

00:42:28 ◼   ► signed that deal and at that point then [TS]

00:42:31 ◼   ► that's that's another good example of [TS]

00:42:33 ◼   ► you could you sign that deal and you're [TS]

00:42:35 ◼   ► like great I've signed a deal for a book [TS]

00:42:36 ◼   ► when's my book come out and I sign that [TS]

00:42:38 ◼   ► deal like over a year ago you know so um [TS]

00:42:42 ◼   ► so next tip is you know if you get to [TS]

00:42:45 ◼   ► that point you sign a book deal [TS]

00:42:46 ◼   ► keep working because otherwise you know [TS]

00:42:51 ◼   ► you're gonna bask on you know basking [TS]

00:42:54 ◼   ► the Sun for a while about that and they [TS]

00:42:55 ◼   ► realize wow this this deal this doesn't [TS]

00:42:57 ◼   ► come out for a year and I'm not gonna I [TS]

00:43:00 ◼   ► can't just sit around and wait for it to [TS]

00:43:01 ◼   ► come out I gotta keep working otherwise [TS]

00:43:02 ◼   ► when it does come out I won't have [TS]

00:43:04 ◼   ► anything else to like push forward so [TS]

00:43:06 ◼   ► this is where writing becomes like a job [TS]

00:43:08 ◼   ► because you know you can never quite sit [TS]

00:43:12 ◼   ► back and relax yeah you had to you had [TS]

00:43:15 ◼   ► to to keep working as it went through [TS]

00:43:17 ◼   ► the process I was gonna you mentioned [TS]

00:43:22 ◼   ► that there's a sequel I did did no are [TS]

00:43:27 ◼   ► you going against your own advice there [TS]

00:43:29 ◼   ► by writing another book in this universe [TS]

00:43:31 ◼   ► when you don't know how well this book [TS]

00:43:33 ◼   ► is going to do and later it's gonna hurt [TS]

00:43:34 ◼   ► a sequel I am 100% going against my own [TS]

00:43:37 ◼   ► advice yeah and I had written that [TS]

00:43:40 ◼   ► actually before I signed with the agency [TS]

00:43:43 ◼   ► certainly because you read that too and [TS]

00:43:46 ◼   ► you had that I don't know when but [TS]

00:43:47 ◼   ► probably not too long after you read the [TS]

00:43:51 ◼   ► early versions of the Caledonian gambit [TS]

00:43:53 ◼   ► you probably read that it probably a [TS]

00:43:54 ◼   ► couple years later because I kind of [TS]

00:43:56 ◼   ► jumped in on that and I knew I shouldn't [TS]

00:43:57 ◼   ► but at the same time part of me felt [TS]

00:43:59 ◼   ► like well these books are not it's not a [TS]

00:44:02 ◼   ► trilogy it's not intended to be a like [TS]

00:44:04 ◼   ► beginning middle end of like books it's [TS]

00:44:07 ◼   ► they're more episodic and so I thought [TS]

00:44:11 ◼   ► to myself well you know I have an idea [TS]

00:44:13 ◼   ► for a story and worst case scenario you [TS]

00:44:16 ◼   ► know if the first book doesn't do well [TS]

00:44:17 ◼   ► maybe I can redo this and make this the [TS]

00:44:19 ◼   ► first book or sell this first as lois [TS]

00:44:21 ◼   ► mcmaster bujold did and so I kind of you [TS]

00:44:24 ◼   ► know I guess my better judgment went and [TS]

00:44:25 ◼   ► did that and that book is still in the [TS]

00:44:30 ◼   ► works I don't have too much else to say [TS]

00:44:33 ◼   ► about it directly I'm still working on [TS]

00:44:36 ◼   ► it [TS]

00:44:36 ◼   ► it's a getting feedback and I'm [TS]

00:44:39 ◼   ► be close to a draft I think that myself [TS]

00:44:42 ◼   ► and my agent are both happy with which [TS]

00:44:44 ◼   ► is a good process and then some of that [TS]

00:44:46 ◼   ► will depend on seeing how well the [TS]

00:44:48 ◼   ► Caledonian game it does so rest assured [TS]

00:44:50 ◼   ► that if you've if you've read it and you [TS]

00:44:51 ◼   ► like it there is potentially more to [TS]

00:44:54 ◼   ► come but obviously you know that depends [TS]

00:44:57 ◼   ► on how well the book does so you know [TS]

00:44:59 ◼   ► tell your friends he'll ever tell [TS]

00:45:00 ◼   ► everybody rated on Amazon rated on [TS]

00:45:02 ◼   ► Goodreads read reviews etc if you like [TS]

00:45:05 ◼   ► it and you want to see more so that's [TS]

00:45:06 ◼   ► how that works so let's talk a little [TS]

00:45:08 ◼   ► bit about the book without without [TS]

00:45:09 ◼   ► spoiling it so that it's science fiction [TS]

00:45:11 ◼   ► it's you've got a can you talk a little [TS]

00:45:14 ◼   ► about where this is set because it's got [TS]

00:45:17 ◼   ► a very particular as these space operas [TS]

00:45:19 ◼   ► often do it's got a very particular kind [TS]

00:45:21 ◼   ► of politics set up that is you know it's [TS]

00:45:27 ◼   ► like geopolitics except instead it's [TS]

00:45:29 ◼   ► Galactus politics collect a political I [TS]

00:45:32 ◼   ► as I call it was kind of a mouthful yeah [TS]

00:45:35 ◼   ► this is set in said well I'm working you [TS]

00:45:39 ◼   ► know the timeline is not specified in [TS]

00:45:40 ◼   ► the first book but it's a few hundred [TS]

00:45:42 ◼   ► years in the future the galaxy has [TS]

00:45:45 ◼   ► expanded there are still this is kind of [TS]

00:45:47 ◼   ► notable they're still like humans in [TS]

00:45:49 ◼   ► this in this galaxy it's so you know [TS]

00:45:53 ◼   ► there are no aliens the worlds that have [TS]

00:45:55 ◼   ► been settled are mainly connected via [TS]

00:45:58 ◼   ► wormholes and there are these gates that [TS]

00:46:01 ◼   ► sort of prop the wormholes open and let [TS]

00:46:02 ◼   ► you travel between these solar systems [TS]

00:46:04 ◼   ► and over the last twenty years or so [TS]

00:46:07 ◼   ► there's been this cold war going on and [TS]

00:46:10 ◼   ► I mean it started it started as an [TS]

00:46:13 ◼   ► actual war this the lyric and Empire [TS]

00:46:17 ◼   ► invaded this was a group of former Earth [TS]

00:46:21 ◼   ► colonists and they sort of were ticked [TS]

00:46:25 ◼   ► off by the way they felt like they had [TS]

00:46:26 ◼   ► been treated by earth and so they [TS]

00:46:28 ◼   ► invaded earth and took over the other [TS]

00:46:30 ◼   ► colonies several of the other colonies [TS]

00:46:32 ◼   ► including the planet caldonia which is [TS]

00:46:34 ◼   ► obviously in the title and which is [TS]

00:46:36 ◼   ► where our protagonist is from and then [TS]

00:46:38 ◼   ► over time it sort of settled into this [TS]

00:46:40 ◼   ► cold war where the remnants the people [TS]

00:46:43 ◼   ► who are not conquered by the lyric ins [TS]

00:46:46 ◼   ► have sort of formed formed this ad-hoc [TS]

00:46:48 ◼   ► commonwealth of independent systems to [TS]

00:46:50 ◼   ► basically resist [TS]

00:46:52 ◼   ► and the way that it's sort of shaken out [TS]

00:46:54 ◼   ► is that they they end up you know kind [TS]

00:46:56 ◼   ► of in one of these Cold War mutually [TS]

00:46:58 ◼   ► assured destruction scenarios where [TS]

00:47:00 ◼   ► they've got these two superpowers and [TS]

00:47:02 ◼   ► they're kind of staring each other down [TS]

00:47:03 ◼   ► but right now everything is kind of calm [TS]

00:47:08 ◼   ► before the storm so there's there's no [TS]

00:47:12 ◼   ► open warfare but there are occasionally [TS]

00:47:14 ◼   ► maybe some skirmishes and of course it [TS]

00:47:16 ◼   ► gives us a great opportunity for spies [TS]

00:47:18 ◼   ► and covert agents to do all their [TS]

00:47:20 ◼   ► sneaking around right so it's you get [TS]

00:47:22 ◼   ► the sense that maybe there's a there's a [TS]

00:47:24 ◼   ► change on the horizon but for now a cold [TS]

00:47:26 ◼   ► war there's a balance of power that at [TS]

00:47:28 ◼   ► least temporarily has been put in place [TS]

00:47:30 ◼   ► between these two factions of humans who [TS]

00:47:34 ◼   ► have different collections of plants now [TS]

00:47:35 ◼   ► Caledonia you mentioned one of the [TS]

00:47:37 ◼   ► concepts I think and correct me if I'm [TS]

00:47:40 ◼   ► wrong here that is that a lot of these [TS]

00:47:41 ◼   ► planets what ends up happening is that [TS]

00:47:43 ◼   ► there are colonists that that colonize [TS]

00:47:45 ◼   ► them that are at least in some cases [TS]

00:47:48 ◼   ► largely from particular nations on earth [TS]

00:47:51 ◼   ► and so you end up with kind of you know [TS]

00:47:53 ◼   ► a planet with a more homogeneous culture [TS]

00:47:57 ◼   ► than you might otherwise expect is that [TS]

00:47:58 ◼   ► right because Caledonia seems to be has [TS]

00:48:00 ◼   ► a strong Irish Scottish kind of flavor [TS]

00:48:04 ◼   ► to it yeah and in this case a lot of [TS]

00:48:06 ◼   ► that comes from the people who were the [TS]

00:48:08 ◼   ► founders of the colony and therefore [TS]

00:48:09 ◼   ► were like kind of had a vested interest [TS]

00:48:11 ◼   ► in pushing their own cultural agenda and [TS]

00:48:16 ◼   ► it's not to say that there aren't people [TS]

00:48:17 ◼   ► from all you know all Heritage's and [TS]

00:48:21 ◼   ► backgrounds but just that that has [TS]

00:48:23 ◼   ► evolved to become and sort of like with [TS]

00:48:26 ◼   ► with with some melange from some other [TS]

00:48:28 ◼   ► cultures but it sort of evolved to [TS]

00:48:30 ◼   ► become the the main culture on that [TS]

00:48:33 ◼   ► planet and and yeah so that's it's a [TS]

00:48:37 ◼   ► result sort of of the unwanted the [TS]

00:48:38 ◼   ► ruling class but like sort of the people [TS]

00:48:40 ◼   ► who were in the the upper echelons of [TS]

00:48:42 ◼   ► that that colony when it got settled [TS]

00:48:45 ◼   ► alright and so presumably other planets [TS]

00:48:48 ◼   ► have do do well are all planets in these [TS]

00:48:51 ◼   ► in this universe like that or are there [TS]

00:48:53 ◼   ► do they vary about whether they're super [TS]

00:48:55 ◼   ► very culturally tied or not at all I [TS]

00:48:57 ◼   ► would say they they largely vary there [TS]

00:49:00 ◼   ► are some with much more much stronger [TS]

00:49:03 ◼   ► cultural identities and then others [TS]

00:49:05 ◼   ► which are more melting pots it really [TS]

00:49:09 ◼   ► depends on where you go and you know [TS]

00:49:12 ◼   ► sort of who is there first and all the [TS]

00:49:13 ◼   ► ways those cultures to sort of evolve as [TS]

00:49:15 ◼   ► they go along but you know yeah in the [TS]

00:49:17 ◼   ► we haven't we haven't spent too much [TS]

00:49:19 ◼   ► time on other planets you know in this [TS]

00:49:24 ◼   ► first book really focuses largely on [TS]

00:49:26 ◼   ► caldonia and so they have a very very as [TS]

00:49:29 ◼   ► you said a very distinct culture which [TS]

00:49:30 ◼   ► is very heavily Celtic in origin now [TS]

00:49:33 ◼   ► while that just came from [TS]

00:49:34 ◼   ► I spent my a lot of time in Scotland and [TS]

00:49:36 ◼   ► Ireland at various points right and I [TS]

00:49:38 ◼   ► enjoyed the culture of it and I wanted [TS]

00:49:40 ◼   ► to sort of work that into a yeah I think [TS]

00:49:44 ◼   ► I again try not to give too much away [TS]

00:49:46 ◼   ► but also it has a little bit of a flavor [TS]

00:49:48 ◼   ► of they're there at a few points I got a [TS]

00:49:51 ◼   ► flavor of like you know kind of IRA kind [TS]

00:49:55 ◼   ► of right there's some there's a little [TS]

00:49:58 ◼   ► bit of crime and maybe maybe there's a [TS]

00:49:59 ◼   ► little bit of terrorism and it's all [TS]

00:50:02 ◼   ► just kind of hanging around there which [TS]

00:50:04 ◼   ► which that that was the flavor that I [TS]

00:50:06 ◼   ► got out of yeah no absolutely that's [TS]

00:50:08 ◼   ► that's that was another certainly [TS]

00:50:10 ◼   ► another influence as I said I did go to [TS]

00:50:12 ◼   ► Ireland for a while after finishing that [TS]

00:50:14 ◼   ► first book and I I did get to visit some [TS]

00:50:18 ◼   ► of the sites that are tied very closely [TS]

00:50:19 ◼   ► to to Irish history and Irish [TS]

00:50:22 ◼   ► nationalism and that definitely [TS]

00:50:24 ◼   ► influenced my my thinking on that the [TS]

00:50:27 ◼   ► evolution of that planet you go you go - [TS]

00:50:29 ◼   ► yeah well that's right when I was [TS]

00:50:30 ◼   ► thinking of Northern Ireland in the IRA [TS]

00:50:31 ◼   ► but but you're right I think you can't [TS]

00:50:33 ◼   ► set you really can't go around a corner [TS]

00:50:35 ◼   ► in Ireland without running into some [TS]

00:50:38 ◼   ► monument for somebody who basically [TS]

00:50:39 ◼   ► killed a lot of English people yep [TS]

00:50:41 ◼   ► English soldiers who were yeah that's [TS]

00:50:44 ◼   ► that's that's part of the national [TS]

00:50:47 ◼   ► identity there is throwing throwing off [TS]

00:50:48 ◼   ► the the English so um well what else [TS]

00:50:52 ◼   ► what else should people what else should [TS]

00:50:54 ◼   ► people know about the setting of this to [TS]

00:50:56 ◼   ► get them interested in reading this book [TS]

00:50:58 ◼   ► if they have not yet what do you think [TS]

00:51:00 ◼   ► um yeah I I think what intrigues me [TS]

00:51:04 ◼   ► about it I mentioned already that that [TS]

00:51:05 ◼   ► people are all there this is all human [TS]

00:51:08 ◼   ► and I think that that's a big part of it [TS]

00:51:09 ◼   ► for me as you know i I've read books [TS]

00:51:12 ◼   ► that I've enjoyed where aliens are done [TS]

00:51:14 ◼   ► very well but I have a lot of times [TS]

00:51:16 ◼   ► where I feel like sometimes you know you [TS]

00:51:18 ◼   ► look at like class [TS]

00:51:19 ◼   ► Star Trek and like even next generation [TS]

00:51:20 ◼   ► and people are just like ah aliens you [TS]

00:51:22 ◼   ► know this is like people with funny [TS]

00:51:23 ◼   ► foreheads and something about that I [TS]

00:51:25 ◼   ► always found a little off-putting and so [TS]

00:51:27 ◼   ► I really wanted to like delve into that [TS]

00:51:29 ◼   ► and so you know that's a big part of it [TS]

00:51:32 ◼   ► we've also got I think the the nature of [TS]

00:51:35 ◼   ► intersystem travel and how that setup [TS]

00:51:37 ◼   ► works towards making this an interesting [TS]

00:51:42 ◼   ► universe because these things become [TS]

00:51:44 ◼   ► strategic like where you can get it's [TS]

00:51:46 ◼   ► kind of like having bridges right like [TS]

00:51:48 ◼   ► where you can get and what the natural [TS]

00:51:50 ◼   ► environment prevents you from doing [TS]

00:51:52 ◼   ► makes a difference in terms of where you [TS]

00:51:57 ◼   ► can easily like deploy military ships [TS]

00:51:59 ◼   ► where are the lines drawn between these [TS]

00:52:02 ◼   ► different superpowers like how does that [TS]

00:52:04 ◼   ► play out in terms of getting people back [TS]

00:52:06 ◼   ► and forth across borders like I think [TS]

00:52:09 ◼   ► that's to me that was interesting rather [TS]

00:52:11 ◼   ► than just having a much more open galaxy [TS]

00:52:14 ◼   ► like you might see in something like [TS]

00:52:15 ◼   ► Star Wars or Star Trek where it's like [TS]

00:52:16 ◼   ► well you know like there are some [TS]

00:52:17 ◼   ► political lines but like your your [TS]

00:52:19 ◼   ► faster-than-light technology whatever [TS]

00:52:21 ◼   ► lets you go anywhere you want [TS]

00:52:23 ◼   ► essentially just whether or not you [TS]

00:52:25 ◼   ► should be there whereas in this it's [TS]

00:52:26 ◼   ► like well there's only certain routes to [TS]

00:52:29 ◼   ► get between certain places so that [TS]

00:52:31 ◼   ► becomes a matter of strategic importance [TS]

00:52:34 ◼   ► it becomes a matter of military [TS]

00:52:35 ◼   ► importance and its really it becomes [TS]

00:52:40 ◼   ► integral to this story too I like the I [TS]

00:52:42 ◼   ► like that it's strategic is the word [TS]

00:52:44 ◼   ► that I was searching for there to that [TS]

00:52:46 ◼   ► with with the Vorkosigan books with [TS]

00:52:49 ◼   ► something like like Lost fleet is like [TS]

00:52:51 ◼   ► that [TS]

00:52:52 ◼   ► the the new Empire series by Scalzi uses [TS]

00:52:57 ◼   ► this conceit of the you know jump gates [TS]

00:52:59 ◼   ► basically Babylon 5 there are lots of [TS]

00:53:01 ◼   ► examples of this but it does add that [TS]

00:53:03 ◼   ► strategic Geographic thing it also feels [TS]

00:53:07 ◼   ► a little bit like ticket to ride or [TS]

00:53:08 ◼   ► something like that right was like favor [TS]

00:53:09 ◼   ► everything is connected [TS]

00:53:10 ◼   ► sometimes by weird routes but it means [TS]

00:53:13 ◼   ► that you can cut somebody off and if [TS]

00:53:14 ◼   ► everybody can just go everywhere it's uh [TS]

00:53:17 ◼   ► it's that that's a different kind of [TS]

00:53:20 ◼   ► galactic political situation to use [TS]

00:53:23 ◼   ► you're right right now full of a of a [TS]

00:53:25 ◼   ► friends so but it is I would say I [TS]

00:53:27 ◼   ► haven't read this book several times in [TS]

00:53:29 ◼   ► several different forms that this is [TS]

00:53:30 ◼   ► this if I were to say [TS]

00:53:32 ◼   ► it what this book is I would say it is a [TS]

00:53:35 ◼   ► story about human beings who and and [TS]

00:53:39 ◼   ► their relationships with with each other [TS]

00:53:41 ◼   ► set inside a thriller about things with [TS]

00:53:48 ◼   ► Galacta political consequences it's like [TS]

00:53:50 ◼   ► those are the shells for me it's like at [TS]

00:53:52 ◼   ► its core this is about not just [TS]

00:53:55 ◼   ► relationships between people but [TS]

00:53:57 ◼   ► especially like familial relationships [TS]

00:54:00 ◼   ► and your main character is dealing with [TS]

00:54:02 ◼   ► family history and baggage and cultural [TS]

00:54:04 ◼   ► baggage and a and a planet that he [TS]

00:54:06 ◼   ► basically fled a home he fled for [TS]

00:54:10 ◼   ► reasons and then that's the core and [TS]

00:54:13 ◼   ► then just outside of that is there is a [TS]

00:54:15 ◼   ► there is a spy action thriller kind of [TS]

00:54:18 ◼   ► plot that has to happen that he's [TS]

00:54:19 ◼   ► involved with he gets caught up in and [TS]

00:54:21 ◼   ► then outside that is all of the the [TS]

00:54:24 ◼   ► political ramifications on the galaxy [TS]

00:54:27 ◼   ► spanning scale of what's going on which [TS]

00:54:30 ◼   ► is a nice it's a nice little turducken [TS]

00:54:32 ◼   ► of a different story [TS]

00:54:34 ◼   ► things happening there but people should [TS]

00:54:36 ◼   ► I'd say some people I think read a space [TS]

00:54:39 ◼   ► opera books for like galactic battles [TS]

00:54:42 ◼   ► and details of made-up made-up weapons [TS]

00:54:44 ◼   ► and made-up ships and things like that [TS]

00:54:46 ◼   ► like tell me about this imaginary gun [TS]

00:54:48 ◼   ► and how it fires and that's great [TS]

00:54:50 ◼   ► this is that you've got some you know [TS]

00:54:52 ◼   ► you've got some tech you've got some [TS]

00:54:54 ◼   ► space tech and you got some some [TS]

00:54:57 ◼   ► interesting stuff on that level but I I [TS]

00:54:59 ◼   ► what I like about it is that at its [TS]

00:55:01 ◼   ► heart you've got human characters and [TS]

00:55:03 ◼   ► how they their baggage and how they [TS]

00:55:06 ◼   ► react to each other actually if you go [TS]

00:55:08 ◼   ► up the chain is going to affect the [TS]

00:55:10 ◼   ► future the galaxy and that's pretty cool [TS]

00:55:12 ◼   ► right right well I mean that and that is [TS]

00:55:14 ◼   ► what I set out to do it's because that [TS]

00:55:15 ◼   ► was one of the things I really loved [TS]

00:55:16 ◼   ► about the Vorkosigan saga and also about [TS]

00:55:18 ◼   ► stuff like um I really loved Timothy [TS]

00:55:20 ◼   ► Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy [TS]

00:55:21 ◼   ► I like people who are recognizable as [TS]

00:55:24 ◼   ► people the expanse does this really well [TS]

00:55:26 ◼   ► to you know people who are recognizable [TS]

00:55:28 ◼   ► as people and I've read some sci-fi that [TS]

00:55:31 ◼   ► is like we're you know like set so far [TS]

00:55:33 ◼   ► in the future and it's post singularity [TS]

00:55:35 ◼   ► and people aren't even human anymore [TS]

00:55:37 ◼   ► right like and that's one type of thing [TS]

00:55:40 ◼   ► but it's not something that a that [TS]

00:55:41 ◼   ► speaks to me I wanted characters who [TS]

00:55:44 ◼   ► have the same [TS]

00:55:46 ◼   ► you know I I think you go you know for [TS]

00:55:49 ◼   ► 400 years in the future and people are [TS]

00:55:51 ◼   ► still people and they have the same [TS]

00:55:53 ◼   ► fears and hopes and dreams and [TS]

00:55:55 ◼   ► attachments and conflicts that we have [TS]

00:55:59 ◼   ► even today you know whether it be family [TS]

00:56:01 ◼   ► or coworkers you know they're dealing [TS]

00:56:04 ◼   ► with essentially very similar problems [TS]

00:56:06 ◼   ► to you know ones that would be instantly [TS]

00:56:08 ◼   ► recognizable to anybody who picks up [TS]

00:56:10 ◼   ► this book and so that's that was what I [TS]

00:56:13 ◼   ► was shooting for it was to make people [TS]

00:56:14 ◼   ► who felt very human and are you know [TS]

00:56:17 ◼   ► dealing with problems that are not [TS]

00:56:19 ◼   ► totally alien to the kind of stuff that [TS]

00:56:21 ◼   ► we all all have to deal with every day [TS]

00:56:24 ◼   ► yeah no I think I think you did that and [TS]

00:56:27 ◼   ► it's a fun it's a fun book I think [TS]

00:56:29 ◼   ► people especially I do think you live up [TS]

00:56:31 ◼   ► to your um how do I put this [TS]

00:56:35 ◼   ► I can tell your love of the Vorkosigan [TS]

00:56:37 ◼   ► books when I read it like I can [TS]

00:56:39 ◼   ► recognize that and I love those books [TS]

00:56:40 ◼   ► too and they're fun and I I had that [TS]

00:56:42 ◼   ► same feeling of I wish there were more [TS]

00:56:44 ◼   ► books like this where there are very [TS]

00:56:46 ◼   ► interesting human characters but they [TS]

00:56:49 ◼   ► get their problems are played out over [TS]

00:56:51 ◼   ► this galactic spectacle which is fun I [TS]

00:56:54 ◼   ► mean it's it's fun and I hope I hope [TS]

00:56:57 ◼   ► people find it fun in even funny at [TS]

00:57:00 ◼   ► farts oh yeah sure you know attempts to [TS]

00:57:02 ◼   ► put in here where the the tone that I [TS]

00:57:04 ◼   ► feel like I kind of shoot for and I [TS]

00:57:06 ◼   ► don't know if this will be off-putting [TS]

00:57:06 ◼   ► to some people or not but the the tone [TS]

00:57:09 ◼   ► is kind of like that Marvel movie sort [TS]

00:57:11 ◼   ► of tone where it's like there are [TS]

00:57:12 ◼   ► serious moments of drama but there's [TS]

00:57:13 ◼   ► also a lot of levity yeah and there's [TS]

00:57:15 ◼   ► action and and stuff like that but like [TS]

00:57:17 ◼   ► it's very very digestible yeah well so [TS]

00:57:19 ◼   ► you've got you you definitely have [TS]

00:57:21 ◼   ► characters with senses of humor and it [TS]

00:57:22 ◼   ► comes out in different ways which is [TS]

00:57:24 ◼   ► which is fun that that yeah it's [TS]

00:57:27 ◼   ► definitely not as super serious like no [TS]

00:57:28 ◼   ► no this is science fiction we must be [TS]

00:57:30 ◼   ► serious it's not like that either so [TS]

00:57:32 ◼   ► yeah well it's I guess available where [TS]

00:57:36 ◼   ► books are sold [TS]

00:57:37 ◼   ► yeah that hopefully I mean you can [TS]

00:57:40 ◼   ► certainly find it on Amazon Barnes & [TS]

00:57:42 ◼   ► Noble iBooks all those places you can [TS]

00:57:45 ◼   ► check your local bookstore if they don't [TS]

00:57:46 ◼   ► have it they'll probably order it for [TS]

00:57:48 ◼   ► you no audio book yet but we can hope [TS]

00:57:50 ◼   ► right that there might be down the road [TS]

00:57:52 ◼   ► it's unclear right now is that right on [TS]

00:57:54 ◼   ► unclear I don't I don't know don't [TS]

00:57:56 ◼   ► really have anything to announce about [TS]

00:57:57 ◼   ► that but [TS]

00:57:58 ◼   ► I'm hopeful that at some point that will [TS]

00:58:00 ◼   ► be something that people can enjoy yeah [TS]

00:58:02 ◼   ► well that would be good that'd be good [TS]

00:58:04 ◼   ► yeah cuz some people want audiobooks and [TS]

00:58:06 ◼   ► that's yeah some people do want to [TS]

00:58:08 ◼   ► what's the deal the deal you made with a [TS]

00:58:09 ◼   ► publisher was not audio book publishing [TS]

00:58:11 ◼   ► deal it was a print me book deal so any [TS]

00:58:13 ◼   ► anything that would happen it would [TS]

00:58:15 ◼   ► happen at some other time so we'll see [TS]

00:58:17 ◼   ► I hope so though that would be nice yeah [TS]

00:58:19 ◼   ► we're worse that comes to worse the [TS]

00:58:21 ◼   ► incomparable will read your book dan [TS]

00:58:22 ◼   ► [Music] [TS]

00:58:24 ◼   ► people pay for that right they'll [TS]

00:58:26 ◼   ► totally pay for that everybody take a [TS]

00:58:27 ◼   ► page yep [TS]

00:58:28 ◼   ► oh that now there's an idea now that [TS]

00:58:31 ◼   ► seems like it really it seems like no [TS]

00:58:33 ◼   ► one would have a good time with that [TS]

00:58:34 ◼   ► including especially the listeners [TS]

00:58:36 ◼   ► anything we didn't cover that you would [TS]

00:58:38 ◼   ► like to cover in this special all day on [TS]

00:58:40 ◼   ► Episode oh wow yeah that's a lot of [TS]

00:58:43 ◼   ► pressure I'm trying to think if there's [TS]

00:58:44 ◼   ► anything I mean I guess the short answer [TS]