163: What If Galactus Was Made of Jello?
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the uncomfortable is brought to you by
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tunks get fresh roasted coffee in your
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visit Punk's dot-org t 0 and x dot org
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slash I NC the incomparable number 163
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october2013 welcome back to the
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uncomfortable i'm your host Jason Snell
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and a little while ago we asked our
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listeners to write itunes reviews they
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didn't even have to be good when I
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participating in some sort of fraud here
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they could be any kind of itunes review
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and randomly would select somebody from
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the itunes reviewers and they would get
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to pick the topic of an episode and we
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indeed show somebody at random it was an
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Australian fellow his name is Dave Gork
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Roger and Dave picked he had actually
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already recommended these books to us on
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Twitter and mention the author's name
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and then the author jumped in on twitter
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and also recommended his books big
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surprise and so this is what we did so
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we read a series of books by John
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birmingham the axis of time trilogy
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weapons of choice is the first book in
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the series
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I believe some of us on this podcast
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read more than that
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so we're going to talk about that a
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little bit hopefully keeping it spoiler
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light enough i personally i don't
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actually think there are a lot of things
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that could spoil these these books it's
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not really those are not those kind of
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books where to go what nobody say what
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happens to this person you know I i
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don't i don't think you'd be spoiled so
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we're gonna go try to go a little light
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on the spoilers
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we're also going to try to talk about
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other books in this genre which is sort
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of essentially all alt history so anyway
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let me introduce now that i've
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introduced our premise and I think Dave
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who suggested this as our contest winner
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let me introduce our panelists as always
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for a book club you know when you love
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them you've missed him because he hasn't
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been on a little while it's scott
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McNulty hi Scott
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hello Jason it's good to be back other
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than being our dungeon master we haven't
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heard from you in a while it's true
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on the the very popular Dungeons and
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Dragons yes we're extremely popular if I
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roll the details a d20 to find out how
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popular they were and it was a critical
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oh I see what you did you become
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inoculated yes also i was making a like
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a editorial reviews joke there it's a
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critical home the DMV lizards are
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critical is what I've been missing
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I know I know you have been missing it i
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think the sadly I think the listeners
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may have been missing this too so I that
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laughter you heard there is the new dan
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moore and he's also now on every podcast
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it's david lower hi David
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hello there welcome i'm gonna put that
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on my business card now the nude and
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nude and morgan and nobody goes to get
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more it is but that's okay you can be
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the new one bad of that thing
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so okay John birmingham access of time I
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read all three of these books because i
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read the first one I thought oh you know
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in the end i kinda wanna he want to see
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where this goes goes next Scott did you
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read all three i did read all three as i
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thought why not why not one was quick
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yeah exactly
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quickened and it wasn't enough there
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weren't enough Nazis in the first one
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no but there was the promise not see but
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but there was the promise of Nazis at
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the end again we should probably even
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below this spoiler here David how much
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of weapons of choice did you read you
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read the whole thing did you get through
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most of it I got through most of it and
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i can imagine reading the others in the
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series you can imagine it
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yeah sure yes it is very plausible in a
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side sectional ok so we should probably
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explain what what this what this series
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is and again if you want to read these
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books with with no spoilers whatsoever
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you probably should steer away but I
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feel like we could other than a faint
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spoiler horn heard in the distance i
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would like to not you know not not drive
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people away because i think most people
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probably have not even heard of these
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books that our friend Dave recommended
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to us but what i found interesting about
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them is this is a this is a series that
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is a combination of first off we should
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say military fiction and sci-fi in the
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sense that there it's set in the in the
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future this future military us and
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allied military so they've got to
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ecology that doesn't exist currently and
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then there's a lot of nuts and bolts I i
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got almost tom clancy kind of vibe from
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some of it there's a lot of dwelling on
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sort of the details of the equipment and
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of the battles in this that felt very
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very tom clancy like to me
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yeah correct we are we talked about this
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yesterday
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Oh on a totally different skype call
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about how you know that the time Clancy
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divided sort of like you want to be hot
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hunt for red october and you don't want
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to be red storm rising because red storm
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rising as a thousand pages of lots of
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military details and hunt from october
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is like a really interesting story with
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interesting people doing interesting
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things and it's from rising not thousand
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pages of not interesting
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are you guys read any time planting
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oh yes he said he said with that's the
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time to get the answer which is
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initially it was very exciting and then
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later I was filled with regret
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yeah yeah I mean I red red red october
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when it came out from the Naval
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Institute press yeah how early and I
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read that and then started reading red
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storm rising and when you
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oh and this and i can bring the colonel
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of the Kremlin was when i came back to
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him and then i read a few more and then
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I'd you know that it's sleek became you
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know eventually he comes tom clancy
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incorporated and it's sort of right
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factory of books put out under the brand
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name of Tom Clancy you know suddenly
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have jet Jack Ryan is the head of the
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CIA then suddenly he's the President and
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eventually he'll become Pope and then
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soon become like the Emperor flown over
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relaxing eclectic Empire yeah yeah yeah
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Scott what about you I'd read that book
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I ready for Red October yeah and i still
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remember details about the engine of the
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Russians so yes the castle that
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invitation with the special yes oh yes
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very exactly
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yes the whisper cavitation drive of the
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sacral october but that's the kind of
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detail that people who read those kinds
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of books one right so I guess we would
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call this military science fiction in
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some ways but although it strikes me as
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being kind of not quite that and more
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military and science fiction and not
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like so much together the two
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idea here is that the this war war fleet
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in the Pacific Ocean or on the way the
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Indian Ocean i guess is carrying with
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them a ship that's got the scientists
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egghead scientists up to no good and
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they are trying to created a weapon that
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will let them essentially teleport
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weapons to their destinations instead of
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having to you know shoot them at people
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and as scientists sometimes do they
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screw it up and the entire battle group
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is sucked through a wormhole as happy as
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so often happens and they emerged in the
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early days of World War two where they
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are plopped down in the vicinity direct
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vicinity of an American battle group
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that's about to go meet a japanese
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attack on the Marshall Islands I think
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midway midway midway I'm midway before
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the Battle of Midway yeah I so we get
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this so so what we originally think is
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this sort of futuristic military stuff
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is now intermixed with the the
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historical military stuff and as with
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superheroes who meet and don't know that
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they're both super heroes there's a
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there's no saddle because they don't
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know who the other one is the fog before
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it's very confusing and so the super
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21st century military of the 21-24 t20
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35 something like that
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21-22 anyone else not that far well that
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these books were written a while ago and
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its attack is not coming in 2021 but
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it's a night it's a nice thought they
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have their throat back in time and they
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they are demolishing large chunks of
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this 1940 battle group because they've
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got you know they got 80 years on them
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75 years on them and that's and that's
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the first i would say that's the first
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like thirty percent using kindle terms
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thirty percent of the book how many dots
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that yeah it's lots of dots and and this
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was something we were talking about the
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morning because he tried to he tried to
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read this and and was struggling with it
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and I honestly I was struggling with the
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beginning of this too because the
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beginning of this book is not really my
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cup of tea it is a lot of technical
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detail about about ships and armaments
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and then and then it becomes
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like a what if a 21st century naval
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battle group attacked a world war two
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naval battle group how badly would they
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destroy those chips and we see that and
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I that stuff didn't that this stuff
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didn't interest interest me at all it
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was after the shooting stopped and the
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people from these 70 years apart
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cultures had to meet that the book
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started to get interesting for me i'm
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interested what you guys thought at the
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beginning of the book when when we were
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really talking more about technology
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than we were talking about culture and
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well that's the idea that's what took me
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so long in the beginning was you know
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going oh this is this isn't tom clancy
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it's maybe Larry bond level of you know
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not quite being Tom Clancy and it just
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keeps going and going and going in there
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are these names and all these things and
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I mean certain things like naming a ship
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the USS Hillary Clinton yes that's not
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going to happen by 2021 and so things
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like that would take me right out so
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this book was written into the timeline
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of this book hillary clinton was elected
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president in 2008 and assassinated at at
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a later time umm alright so it was
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published in 2004 right
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ok so yes it's like I said it's it's
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diverged a little bit from our our world
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already but you know you were you were
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okay with the wormhole transporter them
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back to nineteen forty-two but the USS
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Hillary Clinton wait a second
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yeah well because it's it's presented as
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so you know here's here's this
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absolutely realistic kind of thing that
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we're trying to set up and I just I
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couldn't get into that but but part of
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it was just the over-reliance on the
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technology as soon as it started dealing
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with human beings dealing with one
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another and getting interesting that was
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like oh yeah okay um it's like you guys
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remember the the whisper drive of the
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Red October I the thing that stuck with
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me was I only wanted to see Nebraska
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00:10:50
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oh yes you know it was the character
[TS]
00:10:52
◼
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stuff as interesting as the also
[TS]
00:10:56
◼
►
responded with Montana which is much
[TS]
00:10:58
◼
►
more interesting man Brasel I have
[TS]
00:11:00
◼
►
always wanted to see Montana oh sam
[TS]
00:11:03
◼
►
neill spoiler alert for
[TS]
00:11:05
◼
►
200 for Red October by the way Sam Neill
[TS]
00:11:08
◼
►
doesn't make it but he would have liked
[TS]
00:11:10
◼
►
to have seen Montana well who wouldn't
[TS]
00:11:13
◼
►
like to see much
[TS]
00:11:14
◼
►
yeah no interest but yeah it'sit's once
[TS]
00:11:16
◼
►
once the book really started to focus on
[TS]
00:11:19
◼
►
the humans that was like okay and just
[TS]
00:11:22
◼
►
the differences but you know the culture
[TS]
00:11:23
◼
►
clash between the 21st century in the
[TS]
00:11:25
◼
►
1940s right and that's why I can see
[TS]
00:11:30
◼
►
wanting to continue in reading the rest
[TS]
00:11:31
◼
►
of them because i would hope there's
[TS]
00:11:33
◼
►
more of that and and the promise of
[TS]
00:11:36
◼
►
Nazis yes Scott did you you know did you
[TS]
00:11:38
◼
►
have that same reaction about the
[TS]
00:11:39
◼
►
technology and the battle stuff
[TS]
00:11:44
◼
►
well i-i've read a not an insignificant
[TS]
00:11:46
◼
►
amount of military science fiction which
[TS]
00:11:49
◼
►
is all about weapons systems exactly at
[TS]
00:11:52
◼
►
people shooting at each other and
[TS]
00:11:54
◼
►
legendary future weapons systems it's
[TS]
00:11:57
◼
►
usually it is a human's killing some
[TS]
00:11:59
◼
►
sort of alien in in many inventive ways
[TS]
00:12:03
◼
►
so I was kind of I knew it was familiar
[TS]
00:12:06
◼
►
to me and I've also know that people who
[TS]
00:12:09
◼
►
are you know obsessed with World War to
[TS]
00:12:11
◼
►
assess about the various armaments and
[TS]
00:12:17
◼
►
you know classifications of ships so he
[TS]
00:12:19
◼
►
had it both ways right he had future
[TS]
00:12:20
◼
►
stuff that he could talk about then he
[TS]
00:12:22
◼
►
has were actual world war two things and
[TS]
00:12:25
◼
►
some of the characters from the future
[TS]
00:12:27
◼
►
are obsessed with world war two
[TS]
00:12:28
◼
►
arguments which I thought was a nice
[TS]
00:12:30
◼
►
time and our building like have built
[TS]
00:12:32
◼
►
models of the ships that they're reading
[TS]
00:12:34
◼
►
in the Rye excited about it so I didn't
[TS]
00:12:37
◼
►
take me
[TS]
00:12:37
◼
►
I mean I read it very quickly and i did
[TS]
00:12:40
◼
►
not dislike it and I didn't have a
[TS]
00:12:42
◼
►
problem with the USS Hillary Clinton
[TS]
00:12:43
◼
►
because i like Hillary Clinton hello
[TS]
00:12:46
◼
►
anybody she's very clear as it goes
[TS]
00:12:48
◼
►
along that she was she was the president
[TS]
00:12:50
◼
►
in this scenario and his men women and
[TS]
00:12:53
◼
►
was wasn't homeless assassinated and so
[TS]
00:12:56
◼
►
they made her and bombed many countries
[TS]
00:12:58
◼
►
apparently too so they made her the it
[TS]
00:13:01
◼
►
happens
[TS]
00:13:01
◼
►
yeah yeah it was um also for a blue
[TS]
00:13:04
◼
►
Australian as well novelist but uh lots
[TS]
00:13:08
◼
►
of equal time for the Australians and
[TS]
00:13:10
◼
►
for the English and for the Americans
[TS]
00:13:12
◼
►
which I thought was interesting but yeah
[TS]
00:13:14
◼
►
but the part of this that thing that
[TS]
00:13:16
◼
►
makes this book and it's the thing that
[TS]
00:13:17
◼
►
works for me in a lot of science
[TS]
00:13:19
◼
►
action is then we meet the characters
[TS]
00:13:21
◼
►
and the characters again their military
[TS]
00:13:24
◼
►
people there are some of the measure
[TS]
00:13:27
◼
►
sort of interesting the the the Admiral
[TS]
00:13:30
◼
►
who's in charge of the future battle
[TS]
00:13:32
◼
►
group is is kind of an interesting guy
[TS]
00:13:34
◼
►
and they're the subcommander the British
[TS]
00:13:35
◼
►
subcommander whose of I think Pakistani
[TS]
00:13:38
◼
►
descent is an interesting character but
[TS]
00:13:41
◼
►
what's most interesting is actually did
[TS]
00:13:43
◼
►
the cultures I mean that that's really
[TS]
00:13:44
◼
►
the story this book is for these books
[TS]
00:13:47
◼
►
is the culture clash and I thought that
[TS]
00:13:49
◼
►
was by far the most interesting thing
[TS]
00:13:51
◼
►
and was really fascinating the idea what
[TS]
00:13:54
◼
►
it's really positing is how much our
[TS]
00:13:58
◼
►
societies you know a have changed in in
[TS]
00:14:02
◼
►
this time and yes sure into 10 or 15
[TS]
00:14:05
◼
►
years into the future how end what would
[TS]
00:14:08
◼
►
really happen if somebody from nineteen
[TS]
00:14:11
◼
►
forty America or you know or England or
[TS]
00:14:15
◼
►
Australia ran into certain somebody with
[TS]
00:14:17
◼
►
the values and beliefs of of somebody
[TS]
00:14:19
◼
►
from the 21st century and we think of
[TS]
00:14:22
◼
►
those people as being are there are
[TS]
00:14:23
◼
►
ancestors and they're like us in there
[TS]
00:14:25
◼
►
they're on our side and they're from our
[TS]
00:14:26
◼
►
country but i thought this book was
[TS]
00:14:29
◼
►
really great great and unflinching about
[TS]
00:14:32
◼
►
the fact that it would be kind of rough
[TS]
00:14:34
◼
►
because there would be racism and sexism
[TS]
00:14:38
◼
►
and you know you name it we were talking
[TS]
00:14:41
◼
►
about an integrated both racially and by
[TS]
00:14:44
◼
►
gender military and the 21st century
[TS]
00:14:46
◼
►
it's a professional integrated military
[TS]
00:14:49
◼
►
and in world war two it's a segregated
[TS]
00:14:52
◼
►
men only military and all of the
[TS]
00:14:55
◼
►
ugliness of that collision is dealt with
[TS]
00:14:58
◼
►
in the story and I thought I thought it
[TS]
00:15:00
◼
►
was really nice and thought-provoking
[TS]
00:15:02
◼
►
and challenging to say you know this is
[TS]
00:15:04
◼
►
not going to be one of those hey it's us
[TS]
00:15:06
◼
►
from the past high five
[TS]
00:15:09
◼
►
instead it's like oh crap uh why do you
[TS]
00:15:13
◼
►
why do you have black people and women
[TS]
00:15:14
◼
►
on your ships you people are awful
[TS]
00:15:16
◼
►
obviously the future is a terrible place
[TS]
00:15:18
◼
►
and the people from the from the 21st
[TS]
00:15:20
◼
►
century like who are these idiots these
[TS]
00:15:22
◼
►
racist idiots these are the guys who
[TS]
00:15:25
◼
►
saved the world and they both you know
[TS]
00:15:27
◼
►
and it's not one-sided because you
[TS]
00:15:29
◼
►
there's also this you know that the
[TS]
00:15:32
◼
►
the there's some questions that this
[TS]
00:15:33
◼
►
world war two people raised about the
[TS]
00:15:36
◼
►
about our culture and after decades of
[TS]
00:15:39
◼
►
war on terror and all of that
[TS]
00:15:41
◼
►
what is identity great our culture so I
[TS]
00:15:43
◼
►
thought that was really the best part
[TS]
00:15:45
◼
►
yeah and I thought it was interesting
[TS]
00:15:45
◼
►
that he made the the task force from the
[TS]
00:15:49
◼
►
future is a multinational task for right
[TS]
00:15:51
◼
►
so they have ships from Japan and
[TS]
00:15:54
◼
►
soldiers from Germany on the the boats
[TS]
00:15:57
◼
►
which could cause some trouble with use
[TS]
00:16:00
◼
►
keyboard back to nineteen forty-two
[TS]
00:16:01
◼
►
could be could be some some trouble
[TS]
00:16:04
◼
►
yes they're not as popular no mia with
[TS]
00:16:07
◼
►
the Allies at that time
[TS]
00:16:09
◼
►
no no but the culture clash I don't have
[TS]
00:16:11
◼
►
you guys thought I mean I I it was
[TS]
00:16:13
◼
►
it'sit's there's some really ugly things
[TS]
00:16:16
◼
►
that happen and up to and including a
[TS]
00:16:19
◼
►
murderer of a Japanese soldier or
[TS]
00:16:22
◼
►
japanese scientists sailor guy and a and
[TS]
00:16:25
◼
►
a black i think a gay black woman who is
[TS]
00:16:28
◼
►
a in charge of a ship and they're
[TS]
00:16:30
◼
►
murdered horribly but also there's just
[TS]
00:16:32
◼
►
a lot of really kind of unpleasant back
[TS]
00:16:34
◼
►
and forth in the and the the black and
[TS]
00:16:37
◼
►
and and women characters especially get
[TS]
00:16:40
◼
►
a lot of abuse and I you know I again I
[TS]
00:16:45
◼
►
just I thought it was it was great to
[TS]
00:16:47
◼
►
see that portrayed that way because it
[TS]
00:16:49
◼
►
was so unflinching about how society is
[TS]
00:16:52
◼
►
as has changed in the intervening time
[TS]
00:16:56
◼
►
oh yeah i mean that that was definitely
[TS]
00:16:57
◼
►
the most interesting thing to me just
[TS]
00:16:59
◼
►
because it's also something we haven't
[TS]
00:17:01
◼
►
seen before in this kind of a story I
[TS]
00:17:03
◼
►
mean yeah you've got traveling back in
[TS]
00:17:05
◼
►
time you've got alternate history but
[TS]
00:17:08
◼
►
you know I mean maybe what's what's the
[TS]
00:17:13
◼
►
joke in the city on the edge of forever
[TS]
00:17:14
◼
►
when spots hat comes off and someone
[TS]
00:17:19
◼
►
sees his ears know he he's asian indica
[TS]
00:17:22
◼
►
my friends obviously Chinese he got
[TS]
00:17:24
◼
►
caught his ears got caught in a race
[TS]
00:17:26
◼
►
picking machine it's like okay well yeah
[TS]
00:17:30
◼
►
but you know that's Captain Kirk saying
[TS]
00:17:32
◼
►
hey we're in the nineteen thirties
[TS]
00:17:33
◼
►
everybody's horribly racist here I could
[TS]
00:17:36
◼
►
just use horribly racist things and
[TS]
00:17:38
◼
►
it'll totally getting off scot-free
[TS]
00:17:39
◼
►
scot-free being also racist about the
[TS]
00:17:42
◼
►
people from Scotland but Scotty's not
[TS]
00:17:44
◼
►
here so he doesn't care
[TS]
00:17:45
◼
►
so let's just be racist and nobody will
[TS]
00:17:47
◼
►
notice that's that's what get backers
[TS]
00:17:49
◼
►
think that was his plan
[TS]
00:17:50
◼
►
yeah in the star trek in that Star Trek
[TS]
00:17:52
◼
►
future they stamped out racism but
[TS]
00:17:55
◼
►
sexism they still had some trouble with
[TS]
00:17:57
◼
►
yes well you know it wasn't one of the
[TS]
00:18:00
◼
►
time exactly right i was just a two out
[TS]
00:18:03
◼
►
of three isn't bad but I don't know what
[TS]
00:18:04
◼
►
the second one was but anyway money
[TS]
00:18:08
◼
►
yeah sure bunny we stamped out money
[TS]
00:18:11
◼
►
sure sure i don't so i thought it was
[TS]
00:18:14
◼
►
interesting how so
[TS]
00:18:16
◼
►
the the 1942 contemporary people the a
[TS]
00:18:19
◼
►
lot is obviously hate the Germans and
[TS]
00:18:22
◼
►
the the Japanese the Japanese think that
[TS]
00:18:25
◼
►
everyone is inferior to them
[TS]
00:18:27
◼
►
the Germans obviously think that you
[TS]
00:18:29
◼
►
know painting in broad strokes here
[TS]
00:18:31
◼
►
the Germans think everyone is its
[TS]
00:18:33
◼
►
inferior to them the future people kind
[TS]
00:18:36
◼
►
of are taking well these 1942 people are
[TS]
00:18:38
◼
►
kinda tense
[TS]
00:18:39
◼
►
yeah everybody is kind of thinking I'm
[TS]
00:18:41
◼
►
the best and everyone should just
[TS]
00:18:43
◼
►
obviously fall in line with me and the
[TS]
00:18:45
◼
►
rest get out of the way there's a lot of
[TS]
00:18:47
◼
►
tension between all of that you have the
[TS]
00:18:49
◼
►
world war two people attempts i guess
[TS]
00:18:52
◼
►
they end up calling for contemporary
[TS]
00:18:53
◼
►
suppose that the 21 the 21st the we
[TS]
00:19:00
◼
►
think about this this these books also
[TS]
00:19:02
◼
►
something about how we think about
[TS]
00:19:03
◼
►
history right i mean that's one of the
[TS]
00:19:05
◼
►
things that all history does you think
[TS]
00:19:07
◼
►
about history and how it would be
[TS]
00:19:08
◼
►
different but also you know we flattened
[TS]
00:19:11
◼
►
world war two to be there were the
[TS]
00:19:12
◼
►
Allies they were good they were all for
[TS]
00:19:15
◼
►
you know goodness over the axis who were
[TS]
00:19:18
◼
►
you know again the the not season and
[TS]
00:19:22
◼
►
taking Jews and and gays and and and
[TS]
00:19:26
◼
►
killing them all that they are the bad
[TS]
00:19:28
◼
►
guys right except that that's what the
[TS]
00:19:30
◼
►
21st century people have to face when
[TS]
00:19:32
◼
►
they go back in time is oh these people
[TS]
00:19:34
◼
►
are horribly racist too huh
[TS]
00:19:36
◼
►
they're just less bad than those guys
[TS]
00:19:38
◼
►
who are really bad and then also one of
[TS]
00:19:41
◼
►
the things is fascinating is is there
[TS]
00:19:43
◼
►
are several examples where there are
[TS]
00:19:45
◼
►
facts that are known and and in the
[TS]
00:19:47
◼
►
early days of the incursion into in it
[TS]
00:19:50
◼
►
back in time they they're like ok
[TS]
00:19:52
◼
►
they're these horrible horrible things
[TS]
00:19:53
◼
►
happening there's the the Bataan Death
[TS]
00:19:55
◼
►
March is happening right there these
[TS]
00:19:56
◼
►
awful treatments of civilian prisoners
[TS]
00:19:59
◼
►
and meanwhile the Holocaust is going on
[TS]
00:20:00
◼
►
and people from the 21st century like
[TS]
00:20:02
◼
►
you need to do something to stop this
[TS]
00:20:05
◼
►
and you know in hindsight with history
[TS]
00:20:08
◼
►
we can be like well you know that they
[TS]
00:20:09
◼
►
had to fight a war and they didn't know
[TS]
00:20:11
◼
►
what was going on but what this book
[TS]
00:20:12
◼
►
says is if you told them what was going
[TS]
00:20:13
◼
►
on they would still be like sorry we're
[TS]
00:20:16
◼
►
not gonna do anything about that we need
[TS]
00:20:19
◼
►
to fight the war not rescue civilians
[TS]
00:20:22
◼
►
and so that there's that whole conflict
[TS]
00:20:24
◼
►
that i thought was really fast today
[TS]
00:20:25
◼
►
we're like you should do something about
[TS]
00:20:26
◼
►
this and Churchill and Roosevelt and the
[TS]
00:20:29
◼
►
like are like yeah now we got out there
[TS]
00:20:32
◼
►
we got bigger fish to fry
[TS]
00:20:33
◼
►
Anjali it's really yeah we'll get to it
[TS]
00:20:35
◼
►
then sort itself out
[TS]
00:20:37
◼
►
I thought that was really interesting
[TS]
00:20:38
◼
►
bedridden and then so the the 21st
[TS]
00:20:41
◼
►
century people come from a very
[TS]
00:20:42
◼
►
different time with it you know
[TS]
00:20:43
◼
►
terrorism and I don't know if this
[TS]
00:20:45
◼
►
really comes up in the first book but
[TS]
00:20:46
◼
►
they have very different tactics then
[TS]
00:20:48
◼
►
the contemporary people do which becomes
[TS]
00:20:51
◼
►
very clear in later books when they're
[TS]
00:20:53
◼
►
doing their they're addressing certain
[TS]
00:20:55
◼
►
atrocities with them and vigor and so
[TS]
00:21:00
◼
►
the valley and people are kind of
[TS]
00:21:02
◼
►
thinking what are returning we're
[TS]
00:21:04
◼
►
turning into the the kind of savagery
[TS]
00:21:07
◼
►
that we're fighting right there's this
[TS]
00:21:09
◼
►
there's this um that's what definitely a
[TS]
00:21:11
◼
►
commentary in the in the book is is what
[TS]
00:21:13
◼
►
that that's where we turn the tables is
[TS]
00:21:15
◼
►
the easy comparison is boy we've come a
[TS]
00:21:18
◼
►
long way since back then and then it
[TS]
00:21:20
◼
►
flips around and you see from the eyes
[TS]
00:21:23
◼
►
like there's the one character who's the
[TS]
00:21:24
◼
►
contemporary guy who falls in love with
[TS]
00:21:27
◼
►
the woman who's the new york times
[TS]
00:21:28
◼
►
reporter from the 21st century and he
[TS]
00:21:32
◼
►
you know we see through his eyes the
[TS]
00:21:34
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contemporaries are kind of horrified
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with the you know how kind of like crew
[TS]
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dandruff culture is and how there's much
[TS]
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less it seems like almost horror they're
[TS]
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like so jaded about about about war and
[TS]
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about acts of violence and uh seeing it
[TS]
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from that perspective is really
[TS]
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interesting because it's also
[TS]
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challenging what we're becoming and yeah
[TS]
00:21:57
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they they talk about how the the
[TS]
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Japanese soldiers who were crashing
[TS]
00:22:01
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their planes and all these things are
[TS]
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are these horrible dishonorable evil
[TS]
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things and yet you know they've been
[TS]
00:22:07
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fighting a war on terror for 20 years
[TS]
00:22:10
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there you know prepared to commit sort
[TS]
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of like Battlefield atrocities because
[TS]
00:22:15
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they've got a particular code that says
[TS]
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it you know these guys are guilty of
[TS]
00:22:19
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this you just kill him just so summarily
[TS]
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execute them on the battlefield which is
[TS]
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not appropriate
[TS]
00:22:25
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yeah great I i love it when when science
[TS]
00:22:30
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fiction especially can do that make you
[TS]
00:22:31
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and turn the tables like that we're all
[TS]
00:22:33
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of a sudden there was some moment I
[TS]
00:22:34
◼
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think it was with the with the guy who
[TS]
00:22:36
◼
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is dating the woman from the new york
[TS]
00:22:37
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times where i was suddenly was like oh
[TS]
00:22:40
◼
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because i had seen I so starting to see
[TS]
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them through his eyes and and what would
[TS]
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be the horror of somebody from nineteen
[TS]
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forty seeing these people think this is
[TS]
00:22:47
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what we save the world for is these
[TS]
00:22:50
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yeah true and that's what I think raises
[TS]
00:22:52
◼
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this series he's a capable writer but i
[TS]
00:22:57
◼
►
think that his is playing with this
[TS]
00:23:00
◼
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culture and kind of turning you know
[TS]
00:23:02
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making people think about our own
[TS]
00:23:05
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culture in a different way and
[TS]
00:23:06
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re-examining the past makes it kind of
[TS]
00:23:10
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rises it above kind of everyday all
[TS]
00:23:14
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history crap every day every alternate
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day everywhere all right de-evolve
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00:23:20
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history
[TS]
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alright let's take a brief break move
[TS]
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through dimensions from parallel
[TS]
00:23:26
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universe back into our real universe so
[TS]
00:23:28
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i can tell you about our sponsor its
[TS]
00:23:31
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tonks if you're somebody who is
[TS]
00:23:33
◼
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enthusiastic about sci-fi or fantasy or
[TS]
00:23:37
◼
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books or movies or TV or any of the sort
[TS]
00:23:39
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of things we cover on the incomparable I
[TS]
00:23:41
◼
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have a question for you which is are you
[TS]
00:23:43
◼
►
enthusiastic about coffee there are a
[TS]
00:23:45
◼
►
lot of people who are very enthusiastic
[TS]
00:23:47
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about coffee just like they're
[TS]
00:23:49
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enthusiastic about the things we talked
[TS]
00:23:50
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about here
[TS]
00:23:51
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tonks is a subscription service for
[TS]
00:23:56
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they have great beans that they find
[TS]
00:23:58
◼
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they roast the coffee themselves in Los
[TS]
00:24:01
◼
►
Angeles and then they ship out the
[TS]
00:24:03
◼
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coffee the next day within 24 hours it
[TS]
00:24:05
◼
►
gets shipped out fresh roasted coffee
[TS]
00:24:07
◼
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tastes much better than the steel coffee
[TS]
00:24:09
◼
►
you're going to find in grocery stores
[TS]
00:24:10
◼
►
or cafes they ship it to you and then
[TS]
00:24:13
◼
►
two weeks later they should be some more
[TS]
00:24:15
◼
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so your coffee is always fresh and
[TS]
00:24:17
◼
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they're doing the roasting themselves
[TS]
00:24:19
◼
►
and its source from all over the world
[TS]
00:24:21
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►
is really interesting
[TS]
00:24:22
◼
►
and it talks goes even beyond that they
[TS]
00:24:24
◼
►
have an editor-in-chief they have a
[TS]
00:24:26
◼
►
magazine called the frequency which is
[TS]
00:24:29
◼
►
done by email it's got a lot of fun
[TS]
00:24:30
◼
►
coffee related stuff in it
[TS]
00:24:32
◼
►
members get it for free and if you like
[TS]
00:24:35
◼
►
coffee it's worth a try and you can get
[TS]
00:24:37
◼
►
a free trial if you go to this URL talks
[TS]
00:24:41
◼
►
that's T 0 and x dot org slash I n see
[TS]
00:24:46
◼
►
the first three letters of the
[TS]
00:24:48
◼
►
incomparable I NC so tonks dot org slash
[TS]
00:24:51
◼
►
I NC and you get a free trial you'll get
[TS]
00:24:54
◼
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a free two-ounce bag of coffee in the
[TS]
00:24:56
◼
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mail you can try it out and decide if
[TS]
00:24:58
◼
►
it's something that you like and if so
[TS]
00:25:00
◼
►
you can sign up for one of the
[TS]
00:25:01
◼
►
subscriptions and they've got smaller
[TS]
00:25:02
◼
►
bags and bigger bags and they come to
[TS]
00:25:04
◼
►
you every couple of weeks so it's a
[TS]
00:25:06
◼
►
really cool idea using the internet and
[TS]
00:25:08
◼
►
people who really know coffee to come up
[TS]
00:25:10
◼
►
with this very cool subscription service
[TS]
00:25:12
◼
►
this they ship to the US and canada and
[TS]
00:25:15
◼
►
that URL again
[TS]
00:25:16
◼
►
tonks t 0 and x dot org slash I NC if
[TS]
00:25:21
◼
►
you like coffee if you're enthusiastic
[TS]
00:25:24
◼
►
about coffee
[TS]
00:25:25
◼
►
you owe it to yourself to give this a
[TS]
00:25:27
◼
►
try and see if you might want to convert
[TS]
00:25:30
◼
►
from being somebody who has those old
[TS]
00:25:32
◼
►
beans stuck away somewhere in your house
[TS]
00:25:34
◼
►
to fresh roasted beans every two weeks
[TS]
00:25:37
◼
►
in your mailbox talks talks dot org
[TS]
00:25:40
◼
►
slash I NC and thank you to talk for
[TS]
00:25:43
◼
►
sponsoring the incomparable so the time
[TS]
00:25:46
◼
►
travel aspect of this I also really
[TS]
00:25:47
◼
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liked because the way he handled so many
[TS]
00:25:49
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time travel stories we see especially
[TS]
00:25:51
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movies or TV shows are about its the
[TS]
00:25:54
◼
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back to the future model right it's like
[TS]
00:25:56
◼
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oh I'm back in time I need to make sure
[TS]
00:25:57
◼
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that I don't step on any butterflies or
[TS]
00:25:59
◼
►
whatever and then get because I gotta
[TS]
00:26:02
◼
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get back to my home time and I the the
[TS]
00:26:06
◼
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rules of this of the of these books are
[TS]
00:26:09
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pretty straightforward and again it
[TS]
00:26:11
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seems ridiculous to say this is how time
[TS]
00:26:13
◼
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travel would actually work but I feel
[TS]
00:26:14
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like this is how time travel would
[TS]
00:26:16
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actually work which is they go through
[TS]
00:26:18
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this wormhole and essentially they're
[TS]
00:26:20
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►
creating a parallel universe by uh by
[TS]
00:26:24
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changing the course of history by their
[TS]
00:26:26
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presence and everybody accepts pretty
[TS]
00:26:29
◼
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quickly the fact that they're never
[TS]
00:26:32
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going to get back especially since the
[TS]
00:26:34
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the ship that had the
[TS]
00:26:35
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technology and it was destroyed they're
[TS]
00:26:38
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never going to get back there here
[TS]
00:26:39
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forever
[TS]
00:26:40
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there's no way home and from the moment
[TS]
00:26:43
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that they arrive
[TS]
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history is irrevocably changed and every
[TS]
00:26:49
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minute that passes after their arrival
[TS]
00:26:52
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that what they know for sure about
[TS]
00:26:54
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what's going on in this world is a is
[TS]
00:26:58
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fading away and is diverging because
[TS]
00:27:00
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their presence has changed the course of
[TS]
00:27:02
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the future and i like that that this
[TS]
00:27:05
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book embraces that and says no no this
[TS]
00:27:07
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is there's no good there's not gonna be
[TS]
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any shenanigans of like we're going back
[TS]
00:27:11
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to the future
[TS]
00:27:12
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we're not gonna have a you know sort of
[TS]
00:27:16
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cheats about what we know everything
[TS]
00:27:17
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that's going to happen so we can fix
[TS]
00:27:18
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everything
[TS]
00:27:19
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in fact it makes it more complicated
[TS]
00:27:20
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because Hitler and everybody in the
[TS]
00:27:24
◼
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Japanese command they get access to
[TS]
00:27:26
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these feature histories and say oh well
[TS]
00:27:28
◼
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I'm not going to do that and everything
[TS]
00:27:30
◼
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changes which is great it's true and
[TS]
00:27:33
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that's I thought was interesting when
[TS]
00:27:34
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they first come they realize that fairly
[TS]
00:27:36
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quickly the the people from the 21st
[TS]
00:27:38
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century they're like okay we need to
[TS]
00:27:39
◼
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really act on this information right now
[TS]
00:27:42
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because we have a small window in which
[TS]
00:27:44
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our records are exactly right so let's
[TS]
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make some decisions right now and change
[TS]
00:27:48
◼
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some stuff
[TS]
00:27:49
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yeah they've got their web cache or
[TS]
00:27:50
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whatever of some basic information you
[TS]
00:27:54
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know they've got they've got a bunch of
[TS]
00:27:55
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information for the 21st century and a
[TS]
00:27:57
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trip down to the weather there's a
[TS]
00:27:58
◼
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really nice moment where the I think
[TS]
00:28:00
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it's in the first book where they
[TS]
00:28:01
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noticed that the weather is not what
[TS]
00:28:03
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they're recorded weather was in there
[TS]
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like you know that it's coming
[TS]
00:28:06
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we've done so much to change things now
[TS]
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that not even the weather is the same as
[TS]
00:28:10
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we thought it would be like a we're
[TS]
00:28:12
◼
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completely off the track and then I mean
[TS]
00:28:14
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first book ends I without it's not a
[TS]
00:28:17
◼
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major spoiler the first book ends with
[TS]
00:28:19
◼
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the Axis powers essentially realizing
[TS]
00:28:21
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that they need to make some changes in
[TS]
00:28:23
◼
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what their strategy is based on because
[TS]
00:28:25
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they know they're going to lose right i
[TS]
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mean the the you know Hitler knows that
[TS]
00:28:29
◼
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he's gonna commit suicide in a bunker
[TS]
00:28:31
◼
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and and Japan High Command knows they're
[TS]
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gonna have two of their cities nuked and
[TS]
00:28:38
◼
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even the the Allies even the Soviets
[TS]
00:28:41
◼
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know that the Soviet Union is going to
[TS]
00:28:43
◼
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fall and Stalin isn't gonna like that
[TS]
00:28:45
◼
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very much and so everybody is sort of
[TS]
00:28:47
◼
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rethinking their strategy
[TS]
00:28:48
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which leads to you no more divergence
[TS]
00:28:51
◼
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and we in
[TS]
00:28:53
◼
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meanwhile i guess for the fans of the
[TS]
00:28:54
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military tech stuff
[TS]
00:28:57
◼
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everybody's like hey those are pretty
[TS]
00:28:58
◼
►
cool tools you've got there maybe we
[TS]
00:29:00
◼
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could knock the rock goes off so you
[TS]
00:29:02
◼
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know there's that too a lot of stuff
[TS]
00:29:04
◼
►
going on but I like that we're not
[TS]
00:29:06
◼
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taking time to worry about going back to
[TS]
00:29:09
◼
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you know back to the 21st century
[TS]
00:29:11
◼
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it's never going to happen and everybody
[TS]
00:29:14
◼
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kind of accepts that that that they're
[TS]
00:29:16
◼
►
not going to go down that path it's
[TS]
00:29:18
◼
►
never gonna happen they're stuck in this
[TS]
00:29:19
◼
►
parallel universe Einstein appears at
[TS]
00:29:22
◼
►
one point basically talks to talk to the
[TS]
00:29:24
◼
►
the Admiral and and says you know that
[TS]
00:29:27
◼
►
world is very close to us but but you'll
[TS]
00:29:29
◼
►
never get there because it's in a
[TS]
00:29:30
◼
►
parallel universe Thank You ensign the
[TS]
00:29:33
◼
►
Einstein Kenya then they ran into Spock
[TS]
00:29:36
◼
►
prime and you know it is it it's a very
[TS]
00:29:41
◼
►
soon we think about it
[TS]
00:29:42
◼
►
yeah both things are very clever ways of
[TS]
00:29:46
◼
►
taking of creating a parallel universe
[TS]
00:29:47
◼
►
without negating the other universe the
[TS]
00:29:51
◼
►
previous one right you know like the
[TS]
00:29:53
◼
►
movies could have just completely
[TS]
00:29:54
◼
►
negated the entire next generation and
[TS]
00:29:57
◼
►
all that but they didn't they found a
[TS]
00:29:58
◼
►
way around that and still did a reboot
[TS]
00:30:00
◼
►
and that's one of the things i like here
[TS]
00:30:02
◼
►
too is that I I i love that the focus
[TS]
00:30:06
◼
►
isn't on let's get back or let's not
[TS]
00:30:08
◼
►
change anything it's it's let's see what
[TS]
00:30:10
◼
►
would happen if you have this dropped in
[TS]
00:30:12
◼
►
here and now if this puzzle pieces
[TS]
00:30:15
◼
►
shifted what would this too and then
[TS]
00:30:16
◼
►
what would this doing over this too and
[TS]
00:30:18
◼
►
it's that sort of domino effect of all
[TS]
00:30:19
◼
►
of these things that have changed so
[TS]
00:30:23
◼
►
again that's the I am I reading the next
[TS]
00:30:26
◼
►
two books is very plausible because i
[TS]
00:30:28
◼
►
want to see where that goes
[TS]
00:30:29
◼
►
yeah even the you know even the legal
[TS]
00:30:33
◼
►
issues that come up for fascinating it's
[TS]
00:30:35
◼
►
like who who owns this technology who
[TS]
00:30:37
◼
►
owns the patents on this stuff
[TS]
00:30:40
◼
►
what about 21st century laws who's in
[TS]
00:30:42
◼
►
that what's the chain of command these
[TS]
00:30:43
◼
►
American ships are from the america of
[TS]
00:30:46
◼
►
the 21st century so you know they who
[TS]
00:30:49
◼
►
have a report to where their loyalties
[TS]
00:30:51
◼
►
lie do they want to run the world the
[TS]
00:30:55
◼
►
21st century people do they want to just
[TS]
00:30:57
◼
►
take orders from from macarthur and
[TS]
00:31:00
◼
►
from President Roosevelt who a boob also
[TS]
00:31:04
◼
►
they use some advanced medical scanning
[TS]
00:31:06
◼
►
equipment to put off his his death to
[TS]
00:31:09
◼
►
extend his life a little bit which I
[TS]
00:31:10
◼
►
also really like like things like that
[TS]
00:31:12
◼
►
do we do
[TS]
00:31:14
◼
►
what about intellectual property i think
[TS]
00:31:15
◼
►
in the second book there's this whole
[TS]
00:31:17
◼
►
question of like all the movies and
[TS]
00:31:19
◼
►
music that were created in the
[TS]
00:31:20
◼
►
intervening 75 years are now available
[TS]
00:31:22
◼
►
so what does that do to you know
[TS]
00:31:26
◼
►
presumably those stars like you know now
[TS]
00:31:30
◼
►
that they find Elvis is a little boy
[TS]
00:31:32
◼
►
inside into a contract which actually
[TS]
00:31:33
◼
►
happens in one of the future books it's
[TS]
00:31:35
◼
►
just a little throwaway kind of thing
[TS]
00:31:37
◼
►
but there's all of that too it's like
[TS]
00:31:38
◼
►
what happens to this culture where there
[TS]
00:31:42
◼
►
you know it's not just that these these
[TS]
00:31:44
◼
►
people have been dropped in 75 years in
[TS]
00:31:46
◼
►
the past it's like literally all music
[TS]
00:31:47
◼
►
and art and all books and all movies for
[TS]
00:31:51
◼
►
the next 75 years have just been dropped
[TS]
00:31:52
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on this side society which I would
[TS]
00:31:54
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imagine would cause a huge upheaval and
[TS]
00:31:57
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culture that we we don't see a lot of
[TS]
00:31:59
◼
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mostly because the world at war and so
[TS]
00:32:01
◼
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everybody's kind of distracted but you
[TS]
00:32:03
◼
►
get the hint that there are references
[TS]
00:32:04
◼
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to people from contemporary time
[TS]
00:32:07
◼
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listening to ac/dc and stuff like that
[TS]
00:32:09
◼
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and it's just like wow
[TS]
00:32:11
◼
►
everything is really messed up now well
[TS]
00:32:12
◼
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which I but it's fun and I enjoyed that
[TS]
00:32:15
◼
►
that it was trying to play through all
[TS]
00:32:17
◼
►
the ramifications of this clash of
[TS]
00:32:19
◼
►
cultures and and it's not all just sort
[TS]
00:32:22
◼
►
of like wouldn't it be cool if it's like
[TS]
00:32:23
◼
►
well maybe not because and then try to
[TS]
00:32:27
◼
►
get all of that while still having the
[TS]
00:32:28
◼
►
storyline I really nice through
[TS]
00:32:30
◼
►
storyline which is war two
[TS]
00:32:32
◼
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who with with with where everybody has
[TS]
00:32:35
◼
►
for knowledge and some people have
[TS]
00:32:37
◼
►
advanced weaponry that's running out but
[TS]
00:32:40
◼
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they've got it
[TS]
00:32:40
◼
►
another detail that I like along those
[TS]
00:32:43
◼
►
lines they were talking about one of the
[TS]
00:32:44
◼
►
books one of the characters made like an
[TS]
00:32:47
◼
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offhand comment about their salary and
[TS]
00:32:49
◼
►
how like a captain on the the in the
[TS]
00:32:53
◼
►
ship makes more money than the president
[TS]
00:32:54
◼
►
does in this current time right and so
[TS]
00:32:57
◼
►
they had to figure out how to pay these
[TS]
00:32:58
◼
►
people and what do they just get with
[TS]
00:33:00
◼
►
their salary should be or is it to have
[TS]
00:33:02
◼
►
to adjust for inflation or deflation
[TS]
00:33:04
◼
►
expose right right all while counting
[TS]
00:33:07
◼
►
how many magic drones and bullets and
[TS]
00:33:09
◼
►
missiles they've got left before they
[TS]
00:33:11
◼
►
run out and I kept thinking about that
[TS]
00:33:12
◼
►
it's like they're all big
[TS]
00:33:14
◼
►
their iPads and this book was written
[TS]
00:33:15
◼
►
before the ipad but they're called flexi
[TS]
00:33:17
◼
►
pads so they're almost iPads and I kept
[TS]
00:33:20
◼
►
thinking you keep using that thing going
[TS]
00:33:22
◼
►
to drain the battery and you can get a
[TS]
00:33:23
◼
►
replacement battery pretty soon it's
[TS]
00:33:25
◼
►
going to be hooked up to the AC power
[TS]
00:33:26
◼
►
all the time he did he did mention that
[TS]
00:33:29
◼
►
the battery recharges itself by the heat
[TS]
00:33:32
◼
►
of holding it in motion yeah it's magic
[TS]
00:33:34
◼
►
attack it'll last for a while just work
[TS]
00:33:36
◼
►
but I like that too that you you're
[TS]
00:33:39
◼
►
gonna end up with these I I think
[TS]
00:33:41
◼
►
there's some scenes where they're like
[TS]
00:33:42
◼
►
taking planes from the aircraft carrier
[TS]
00:33:45
◼
►
and and rather than flying they're
[TS]
00:33:47
◼
►
taking them and disassembling them so
[TS]
00:33:49
◼
►
they can like document but how they work
[TS]
00:33:52
◼
►
because you're going to end up with
[TS]
00:33:54
◼
►
these are the these are the only things
[TS]
00:33:56
◼
►
that they can use to try and bootstrap
[TS]
00:33:57
◼
►
better technology coming out of you know
[TS]
00:34:01
◼
►
1940 because they've got these examples
[TS]
00:34:03
◼
►
but I'll in a lot of cases the the
[TS]
00:34:06
◼
►
supply chain isn't there it's really
[TS]
00:34:08
◼
►
lucky if you have an iphone still exists
[TS]
00:34:10
◼
►
right if you have an iPhone and you go
[TS]
00:34:12
◼
►
back in time to 1945 you can't even if
[TS]
00:34:15
◼
►
you bring your charger with you if you
[TS]
00:34:17
◼
►
were smart enough to carry your charger
[TS]
00:34:18
◼
►
in your pocket in case you fell through
[TS]
00:34:19
◼
►
a wormhole and ended up in 1948 could
[TS]
00:34:22
◼
►
happen which I did they couldn't make an
[TS]
00:34:25
◼
►
iphone in 1940 because they don't have
[TS]
00:34:27
◼
►
any of the materials to make the
[TS]
00:34:29
◼
►
factories to make it I you know none of
[TS]
00:34:31
◼
►
that is possible and they run into that
[TS]
00:34:34
◼
►
here too which I thought was a nice
[TS]
00:34:35
◼
►
touch that it's not easily replicable
[TS]
00:34:38
◼
►
stuff it's that it's that old thing
[TS]
00:34:39
◼
►
about how you know if the world's if
[TS]
00:34:41
◼
►
there was an apocalypse we couldn't all
[TS]
00:34:43
◼
►
just sort of like remake our technology
[TS]
00:34:45
◼
►
from here today because we would have
[TS]
00:34:47
◼
►
two week we you know it's all
[TS]
00:34:49
◼
►
bootstrapped on all these other things
[TS]
00:34:50
◼
►
that are would be gone so I like that I
[TS]
00:34:53
◼
►
like that aspect of it to that there
[TS]
00:34:54
◼
►
that there you know they can't make more
[TS]
00:34:57
◼
►
of their whatever crazy fusion bombs
[TS]
00:35:00
◼
►
because they don't have they can't it'll
[TS]
00:35:03
◼
►
take 30 years for them knowing knowing
[TS]
00:35:05
◼
►
the answer they'll still take 30 years
[TS]
00:35:07
◼
►
to figure out how to get how to make
[TS]
00:35:09
◼
►
them that i would like to the the
[TS]
00:35:11
◼
►
contempt of the contemporary military
[TS]
00:35:12
◼
►
people like they have obviously they
[TS]
00:35:15
◼
►
have all the records of world war two so
[TS]
00:35:17
◼
►
they're like well if you just do a few
[TS]
00:35:18
◼
►
things to improve your tanks it'll be
[TS]
00:35:20
◼
►
much better for you and the military's
[TS]
00:35:22
◼
►
like well I don't know if we trust you
[TS]
00:35:23
◼
►
changes even though this is actually
[TS]
00:35:26
◼
►
happened and you are the others the
[TS]
00:35:28
◼
►
complacency issue where the Americans
[TS]
00:35:30
◼
►
should like hey we're going to win or as
[TS]
00:35:32
◼
►
the axis is like oh crap we need to
[TS]
00:35:33
◼
►
change everything because we're gonna
[TS]
00:35:35
◼
►
lose and so that that's an interesting
[TS]
00:35:37
◼
►
dynamic to of it
[TS]
00:35:38
◼
►
the Germans and the Japanese are much
[TS]
00:35:40
◼
►
more inclined to change their tactics
[TS]
00:35:42
◼
►
and the Americans are a little more
[TS]
00:35:44
◼
►
skeptical about it in fact i think one
[TS]
00:35:46
◼
►
of the big motivators for the Americans
[TS]
00:35:48
◼
►
change their tactics is that is that the
[TS]
00:35:50
◼
►
the 21st century battlegroup destroys a
[TS]
00:35:52
◼
►
huge amount of the u.s. Navy and the
[TS]
00:35:55
◼
►
pacific and so they sort of have to
[TS]
00:35:57
◼
►
adapt because oops we blow up your Navy
[TS]
00:36:01
◼
►
sorry did those you broke your little
[TS]
00:36:04
◼
►
yeah we didn't know with you anyway I i
[TS]
00:36:07
◼
►
enjoyed reading them i was i was kind of
[TS]
00:36:09
◼
►
carried on after after that first time
[TS]
00:36:11
◼
►
by the first thirty percent or so where
[TS]
00:36:12
◼
►
where was slow going because it was so
[TS]
00:36:14
◼
►
much about that battle and I kept saying
[TS]
00:36:16
◼
►
you know show me the characters you know
[TS]
00:36:18
◼
►
get anymore I'm much more interested in
[TS]
00:36:20
◼
►
the incursion and what this what effect
[TS]
00:36:22
◼
►
this has on the world than I am about a
[TS]
00:36:24
◼
►
bunch of ships fighting once once that
[TS]
00:36:27
◼
►
happened I really kind of got swept
[TS]
00:36:29
◼
►
along and really enjoyed seeing all
[TS]
00:36:30
◼
►
these crazy permutations of the ripples
[TS]
00:36:33
◼
►
of this one event and how they impact
[TS]
00:36:35
◼
►
you know the culture and then and then
[TS]
00:36:39
◼
►
after that you know like you said Scott
[TS]
00:36:40
◼
►
it's a it's a fast enjoyable read after
[TS]
00:36:43
◼
►
you get through the nuts and bolts that
[TS]
00:36:45
◼
►
just doesn't work for me that that
[TS]
00:36:47
◼
►
military nuts-and-bolts think the second
[TS]
00:36:48
◼
►
and third books as a whole are much more
[TS]
00:36:50
◼
►
interesting because he kind of lets go
[TS]
00:36:52
◼
►
of all the technology and listing
[TS]
00:36:54
◼
►
weapons systems in jail and just kind of
[TS]
00:36:56
◼
►
plays with the cultural impact and and
[TS]
00:36:59
◼
►
what would happen if people had access
[TS]
00:37:02
◼
►
to this history and how it diverges and
[TS]
00:37:03
◼
►
then the pop-culture stuff he just kind
[TS]
00:37:05
◼
►
of plays around with a rare and serious
[TS]
00:37:07
◼
►
diversions divergence at that point to
[TS]
00:37:09
◼
►
where you guys you know I war war being
[TS]
00:37:12
◼
►
waged in Australia and it and alternate
[TS]
00:37:16
◼
►
d-day happening and questions about what
[TS]
00:37:19
◼
►
the Japanese plan of attack and the
[TS]
00:37:21
◼
►
Pacific is going to be and and attacking
[TS]
00:37:24
◼
►
Hawaii directly and all sorts of
[TS]
00:37:26
◼
►
interesting things that didn't happen in
[TS]
00:37:28
◼
►
our our version of war two so he gets to
[TS]
00:37:31
◼
►
finally play on that after all the setup
[TS]
00:37:33
◼
►
so yeah basically it's three books but
[TS]
00:37:36
◼
►
you gotta get through that
[TS]
00:37:37
◼
►
initial setup to get to the point where
[TS]
00:37:39
◼
►
it really starts paying off that after
[TS]
00:37:40
◼
►
that I i enjoy that I you know I i die i
[TS]
00:37:43
◼
►
think our deal with dave was that we
[TS]
00:37:45
◼
►
only have to read the first one but you
[TS]
00:37:46
◼
►
and I both went and bought the next two
[TS]
00:37:48
◼
►
and and read them all so I think that's
[TS]
00:37:50
◼
►
I think that's a bit of an endorsement
[TS]
00:37:52
◼
►
yeah it turns out I'm not the first one
[TS]
00:37:54
◼
►
in 2009 so high
[TS]
00:37:57
◼
►
read it but I haven't well done well
[TS]
00:38:00
◼
►
done you knew I new days gonna record
[TS]
00:38:03
◼
►
dave was whispering in your ear even
[TS]
00:38:05
◼
►
then a multinational task force so I
[TS]
00:38:08
◼
►
came back to 2000 that's right and I
[TS]
00:38:11
◼
►
look at the semester podcast in the
[TS]
00:38:13
◼
►
future that's for this podcast is
[TS]
00:38:15
◼
►
nothing like that podcast because they
[TS]
00:38:17
◼
►
radically change the timeline
[TS]
00:38:20
◼
►
it's true yeah so I were all speaking
[TS]
00:38:22
◼
►
German yeah yeah yeah I'm not going to
[TS]
00:38:28
◼
►
Switzerland if I try to go by German
[TS]
00:38:30
◼
►
accent will come out French accent haha
[TS]
00:38:33
◼
►
alright time to take another break for
[TS]
00:38:36
◼
►
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00:39:57
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00:39:59
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the incomparable so i was reminded that
[TS]
00:40:02
◼
►
we should talk a little bit about other
[TS]
00:40:03
◼
►
old history that we have known because
[TS]
00:40:06
◼
►
there's a lot of it out there especially
[TS]
00:40:08
◼
►
in books the the book that came to mind
[TS]
00:40:11
◼
►
for me while I was reading this for lots
[TS]
00:40:12
◼
►
of obvious reasons is the Proteas
[TS]
00:40:14
◼
►
operation which is by James P open which
[TS]
00:40:17
◼
►
is a very clever book it is also a you
[TS]
00:40:20
◼
►
know it's there's a lot of fascination
[TS]
00:40:23
◼
►
with world war two he was obviously a
[TS]
00:40:24
◼
►
world war two puffs and a military
[TS]
00:40:28
◼
►
strategy but what I really like about it
[TS]
00:40:31
◼
►
is that it it is it flips the kind of
[TS]
00:40:36
◼
►
time travel tropes on its head in that
[TS]
00:40:38
◼
►
that that's a book where we started in
[TS]
00:40:41
◼
►
1973 and the world is at war us is the
[TS]
00:40:48
◼
►
last surviving democracy under President
[TS]
00:40:52
◼
►
I think Joe Kennedy and uh and Hitler
[TS]
00:40:59
◼
►
has won the war and the Germans the
[TS]
00:41:01
◼
►
Japanese are all kind of like gradually
[TS]
00:41:03
◼
►
spreading out over the world and so in a
[TS]
00:41:05
◼
►
last-ditch effort to save the world they
[TS]
00:41:07
◼
►
build a time machine and send a crack
[TS]
00:41:10
◼
►
team of people back to World War to try
[TS]
00:41:12
◼
►
and change the course of history and so
[TS]
00:41:14
◼
►
what you get is our time travelers from
[TS]
00:41:17
◼
►
this dystopian you know future of 1973
[TS]
00:41:20
◼
►
are trying to change the past to be
[TS]
00:41:23
◼
►
better and what they're doing is they're
[TS]
00:41:25
◼
►
changing it to be our history and i love
[TS]
00:41:29
◼
►
that I love that as a premise that it
[TS]
00:41:31
◼
►
what ends up happening is what happened
[TS]
00:41:33
◼
►
and so it's the time travel book where
[TS]
00:41:36
◼
►
they're screwing with history to make
[TS]
00:41:37
◼
►
what we know as our history which I
[TS]
00:41:40
◼
►
thought was a lot of fun so that that's
[TS]
00:41:42
◼
►
the one that I was thinking of as i was
[TS]
00:41:43
◼
►
reading bees is this this alter history
[TS]
00:41:46
◼
►
where we start in the old world and then
[TS]
00:41:49
◼
►
we're our history is the old history
[TS]
00:41:51
◼
►
which I thought was a lot of fun i'm not
[TS]
00:41:52
◼
►
sure if you guys have good all history
[TS]
00:41:54
◼
►
examples that you wanted to you want to
[TS]
00:41:56
◼
►
bring up
[TS]
00:41:57
◼
►
oh sure I mean
[TS]
00:41:58
◼
►
the man in the high castle by Philip
[TS]
00:42:01
◼
►
dick wish that I mean it's just kinda
[TS]
00:42:05
◼
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nuts my my brother push that on me years
[TS]
00:42:08
◼
►
and years ago and said here you like
[TS]
00:42:10
◼
►
this because at the time i was reading
[TS]
00:42:12
◼
►
fatherland by oh yeah oh is it Robert
[TS]
00:42:16
◼
►
Harris robert harris yeah yeah and
[TS]
00:42:20
◼
►
that's it set in the sixties after a
[TS]
00:42:23
◼
►
successful German victory in World War
[TS]
00:42:28
◼
►
two and it's it's just everyday life in
[TS]
00:42:31
◼
►
the aging Hitler's Germany and our hero
[TS]
00:42:36
◼
►
solve a murder and there's no I mean it
[TS]
00:42:38
◼
►
is pure all history there's no time
[TS]
00:42:41
◼
►
travel there's no sense that oh this is
[TS]
00:42:42
◼
►
wrong this is just here's what it would
[TS]
00:42:45
◼
►
be like in the sixties which is
[TS]
00:42:48
◼
►
wonderful
[TS]
00:42:49
◼
►
there's would not the book is wonderful
[TS]
00:42:51
◼
►
i mean i love you outcome but I mean I
[TS]
00:42:55
◼
►
mean to bug the novel be Jim if it and
[TS]
00:42:59
◼
►
then there's there's a book that we had
[TS]
00:43:01
◼
►
on the Shelf that my mother got at some
[TS]
00:43:05
◼
►
point it's originally a German novel in
[TS]
00:43:09
◼
►
English it's called the Royal project
[TS]
00:43:11
◼
►
and it's about the Vatican trying to
[TS]
00:43:15
◼
►
restore the House of Stuart to the
[TS]
00:43:18
◼
►
English throne by using a time machine
[TS]
00:43:21
◼
►
invented by Leonardo da Vinci haha which
[TS]
00:43:24
◼
►
is nuts but it's a really interesting
[TS]
00:43:27
◼
►
book and she just got a sheep she liked
[TS]
00:43:31
◼
►
to collect Vatican thrillers and sci-fi
[TS]
00:43:33
◼
►
novels and there's a ridiculous number
[TS]
00:43:36
◼
►
of action thrillers out there who knew
[TS]
00:43:38
◼
►
but I mean I was just just fun because
[TS]
00:43:42
◼
►
it's it's got that whole weird time
[TS]
00:43:44
◼
►
travel thing going on and I was going to
[TS]
00:43:46
◼
►
say the produce operation watch watchmen
[TS]
00:43:49
◼
►
watch venture and get a really
[TS]
00:43:52
◼
►
interesting all history to it and all
[TS]
00:43:54
◼
►
the Nixon stuff
[TS]
00:43:55
◼
►
yes Nixon still still still in office in
[TS]
00:43:59
◼
►
the eighties but RR is going to run for
[TS]
00:44:02
◼
►
president and it turns out that's Robert
[TS]
00:44:04
◼
►
Redford not Ronald Reagan its watching
[TS]
00:44:07
◼
►
the comic Scott comic books funny books
[TS]
00:44:10
◼
►
oh yeah
[TS]
00:44:12
◼
►
and then the Difference Engine by
[TS]
00:44:15
◼
►
william gibson I am bruce sterling which
[TS]
00:44:18
◼
►
is it what modern computers a hundred
[TS]
00:44:21
◼
►
years early
[TS]
00:44:22
◼
►
yeah can we say is that like the steam
[TS]
00:44:25
◼
►
punk ish is that like origin of
[TS]
00:44:28
◼
►
steampunk starts before it got all
[TS]
00:44:29
◼
►
ironic with hats and Zeppelin's oh yeah
[TS]
00:44:32
◼
►
I they as i recall they clearly wrote it
[TS]
00:44:37
◼
►
with that in mind is my least favorite
[TS]
00:44:40
◼
►
thing William Gibson has participated
[TS]
00:44:42
◼
►
creatively and in and yes actually I
[TS]
00:44:45
◼
►
like mr. like william gibson and the
[TS]
00:44:48
◼
►
Difference Engine just didn't float my
[TS]
00:44:49
◼
►
boat I I didn't like that knew that much
[TS]
00:44:51
◼
►
it i remember enjoying it but I remember
[TS]
00:44:55
◼
►
nothing about it so Scott what about you
[TS]
00:44:57
◼
►
you have any favorite all histories that
[TS]
00:45:00
◼
►
you cannot remember David Stoll almost
[TS]
00:45:03
◼
►
all my answers are cheating
[TS]
00:45:06
◼
►
I think he's turning off your papers
[TS]
00:45:08
◼
►
made my castle was a good one
[TS]
00:45:09
◼
►
yes well i was going to a series that we
[TS]
00:45:12
◼
►
discussed on previous episodes of Joe
[TS]
00:45:16
◼
►
Walton small change theory right far
[TS]
00:45:18
◼
►
thing a penny in half-a-crown all very
[TS]
00:45:21
◼
►
good alternate history alternate history
[TS]
00:45:24
◼
►
with the with mr. Hitler being
[TS]
00:45:27
◼
►
ambulatory at the end of the war
[TS]
00:45:30
◼
►
yes going to optimism right making
[TS]
00:45:33
◼
►
trouble house
[TS]
00:45:34
◼
►
yeah so those are good other mirage by
[TS]
00:45:37
◼
►
Matt rough as its kind of all history
[TS]
00:45:42
◼
►
that kind of is the kind of falls apart
[TS]
00:45:47
◼
►
at the end but it's a alright so it's
[TS]
00:45:51
◼
►
like instead of uh you know of america
[TS]
00:45:54
◼
►
on 911 getting attacked by Middle
[TS]
00:45:57
◼
►
Eastern terrorists the twin towers are
[TS]
00:46:00
◼
►
in the middle east and they are attacked
[TS]
00:46:02
◼
►
by american terrorists and so it kind of
[TS]
00:46:05
◼
►
flips that around and does a whole bunch
[TS]
00:46:07
◼
►
of stuff with that is interesting that
[TS]
00:46:09
◼
►
that that book I i haven't read but its
[TS]
00:46:12
◼
►
tricks it reminds me of the book Osama
[TS]
00:46:14
◼
►
that i did read by la vie
[TS]
00:46:17
◼
►
teat are I don't know how to pronounce
[TS]
00:46:20
◼
►
that authors name but and that that's
[TS]
00:46:23
◼
►
the idea of the it's the pulp
[TS]
00:46:25
◼
►
it's a series of pulp novels about a guy
[TS]
00:46:27
◼
►
named Osama bin Laden and he the this
[TS]
00:46:32
◼
►
guy is trying to find the minute it
[TS]
00:46:33
◼
►
similarly kind of bizarre alternate view
[TS]
00:46:38
◼
►
of of of 911 very strange strange books
[TS]
00:46:43
◼
►
in the phone book that i have purchased
[TS]
00:46:45
◼
►
but i have not read huh by Norman
[TS]
00:46:48
◼
►
Spinrad called the iron dream I don't
[TS]
00:46:51
◼
►
know if anyone is ready Norman Spinrad
[TS]
00:46:52
◼
►
but he is a scriptwriter putting well
[TS]
00:46:56
◼
►
he's dead now but he's also kind of it's
[TS]
00:46:59
◼
►
completely crazy and so the premise of
[TS]
00:47:02
◼
►
this story is that Adolf Hitler
[TS]
00:47:04
◼
►
emigrated to America before world war
[TS]
00:47:07
◼
►
one and then he wrote a science fiction
[TS]
00:47:09
◼
►
novel about basically Nazi dream huh
[TS]
00:47:15
◼
►
and i bought it because it has the
[TS]
00:47:16
◼
►
craziest cover i have ever seen in a
[TS]
00:47:19
◼
►
used bookstore with like this this
[TS]
00:47:21
◼
►
motorcyclist on a motorcycle and the
[TS]
00:47:25
◼
►
tires are all their trademarks are all
[TS]
00:47:28
◼
►
swastika and so I said well I mean it's
[TS]
00:47:33
◼
►
a dollar i need to cut here of the hero
[TS]
00:47:35
◼
►
the doomsday machine an excellent 'star
[TS]
00:47:37
◼
►
trek episode once you've been read
[TS]
00:47:39
◼
►
yes well he's not dead I take it back
[TS]
00:47:42
◼
►
sorry comments but if you're looking
[TS]
00:47:43
◼
►
I've got jealous i thought you were dead
[TS]
00:47:46
◼
►
or not he's a lot of using born in
[TS]
00:47:48
◼
►
nineteen forties only 73 he's a young is
[TS]
00:47:50
◼
►
young fellow try to give you right after
[TS]
00:47:53
◼
►
you right now he's writing something yes
[TS]
00:47:55
◼
►
about about trademarks swastika in them
[TS]
00:47:58
◼
►
I was going to bring up the yiddish
[TS]
00:47:59
◼
►
policemen's union
[TS]
00:48:01
◼
►
oh yeah which is another all but I'll
[TS]
00:48:03
◼
►
history by michael chabon about again
[TS]
00:48:07
◼
►
it's coming out of World War two it's
[TS]
00:48:08
◼
►
the instead of forming Israel they put
[TS]
00:48:12
◼
►
the jewish refugees in Alaska and and
[TS]
00:48:16
◼
►
then it said at the time when the Jewish
[TS]
00:48:19
◼
►
refugee zone is going to expire and
[TS]
00:48:23
◼
►
there's tension internationally because
[TS]
00:48:26
◼
►
the all the refugees are being repaired
[TS]
00:48:28
◼
►
the US doesn't really want them so
[TS]
00:48:29
◼
►
they're being repatriated and there is a
[TS]
00:48:32
◼
►
in all history for world
[TS]
00:48:33
◼
►
two in general the tented at and and
[TS]
00:48:37
◼
►
then there's a murder mystery and
[TS]
00:48:39
◼
►
there's also some fascinating sort of
[TS]
00:48:40
◼
►
Jewish mysticism stuff too but i like
[TS]
00:48:44
◼
►
that because it's this bizarre setting
[TS]
00:48:47
◼
►
that I who would have thought that you'd
[TS]
00:48:49
◼
►
have the jewish state in Alaska and have
[TS]
00:48:52
◼
►
those things all mashed up together but
[TS]
00:48:54
◼
►
Michael trip on he's the one who thought
[TS]
00:48:57
◼
►
there's also connie willis and her just
[TS]
00:49:02
◼
►
to say nothing of the dog the domesday
[TS]
00:49:05
◼
►
book and then blackout and all those
[TS]
00:49:07
◼
►
those are time travel but they don't
[TS]
00:49:09
◼
►
seem to interfere with time they did
[TS]
00:49:11
◼
►
there's no nothing alternate about the
[TS]
00:49:13
◼
►
past they go into right that when the
[TS]
00:49:16
◼
►
first to their historians and they are
[TS]
00:49:18
◼
►
trying to not screw up the past in black
[TS]
00:49:21
◼
►
and all clear they do kind of get
[TS]
00:49:23
◼
►
screwed up and have to you know it and I
[TS]
00:49:28
◼
►
think some of the characters wind up
[TS]
00:49:29
◼
►
having to accept living in the past
[TS]
00:49:31
◼
►
there right stuck that they're stuck to
[TS]
00:49:33
◼
►
their second they're stuck in our time
[TS]
00:49:35
◼
►
though they're not stuck in like it
[TS]
00:49:36
◼
►
already much altered pretty much yeah I
[TS]
00:49:38
◼
►
right yeah i think i can I tend to think
[TS]
00:49:40
◼
►
of all history's as being separate than
[TS]
00:49:43
◼
►
time-travel they may have they may
[TS]
00:49:44
◼
►
involve time travel but it's always
[TS]
00:49:46
◼
►
route usually in all history some
[TS]
00:49:49
◼
►
critical key moment in history is
[TS]
00:49:52
◼
►
slightly different it's like the Marvel
[TS]
00:49:53
◼
►
what if common right what if they're
[TS]
00:49:55
◼
►
like this was made of jello and then so
[TS]
00:49:59
◼
►
they would eat himself me and was it so
[TS]
00:50:03
◼
►
they don't hire rewrite this one I
[TS]
00:50:06
◼
►
remember years ago when I was going
[TS]
00:50:07
◼
►
through a Robert Heinlein kick and
[TS]
00:50:10
◼
►
getting more and more frustrated as I
[TS]
00:50:12
◼
►
went along cuz i started with like
[TS]
00:50:14
◼
►
lesser Heinlein and i think it is it's
[TS]
00:50:18
◼
►
like one of his last novels to to sail
[TS]
00:50:21
◼
►
beyond the sunset where you get
[TS]
00:50:24
◼
►
something like seven eighths of the way
[TS]
00:50:26
◼
►
through the book and then all of a
[TS]
00:50:27
◼
►
sudden it's about you know there's this
[TS]
00:50:29
◼
►
just random mention of oh and then
[TS]
00:50:32
◼
►
Abraham Lincoln died in 1893 or
[TS]
00:50:34
◼
►
something like that and you realize that
[TS]
00:50:36
◼
►
you've been in an alternate history the
[TS]
00:50:38
◼
►
halftime and I remember getting died it
[TS]
00:50:41
◼
►
just pissed me off like son
[TS]
00:50:43
◼
►
funded through the book across the river
[TS]
00:50:45
◼
►
so yeah I'm kind of a huge headline fan
[TS]
00:50:50
◼
►
but anyway long story short I see you're
[TS]
00:50:53
◼
►
right Scott there's this intersection of
[TS]
00:50:55
◼
►
of time travel and all history and
[TS]
00:50:59
◼
►
parallel you know the whole parallel
[TS]
00:51:01
◼
►
universe thing to where were the old
[TS]
00:51:03
◼
►
history is a parallel universe
[TS]
00:51:05
◼
►
so Robert Sawyer's Neanderthal books uh
[TS]
00:51:10
◼
►
I'm reminded of because there's a a
[TS]
00:51:12
◼
►
person from our world travels into a
[TS]
00:51:15
◼
►
parallel world well I uh what is that
[TS]
00:51:18
◼
►
Neanderthal from a world where the
[TS]
00:51:20
◼
►
animals evolved and became dominant and
[TS]
00:51:22
◼
►
humans died out travels accidentally to
[TS]
00:51:25
◼
►
our world and then likewise than human
[TS]
00:51:30
◼
►
travels to their world and that's sort
[TS]
00:51:32
◼
►
of an old history but it's a you know of
[TS]
00:51:35
◼
►
history of hundred thousand years ago
[TS]
00:51:37
◼
►
guess but those were those are pretty
[TS]
00:51:40
◼
►
interesting and you know harry
[TS]
00:51:42
◼
►
turtledove has made the entire career
[TS]
00:51:45
◼
►
writing books about various all
[TS]
00:51:47
◼
►
history's guns of the South right where
[TS]
00:51:50
◼
►
we're southern nerves don't know South
[TS]
00:51:55
◼
►
Africans apartheid South Africans travel
[TS]
00:51:58
◼
►
back in time and ship in machine guns to
[TS]
00:52:01
◼
►
the Confederacy so that racism can win
[TS]
00:52:03
◼
►
the day actual actual store at actual
[TS]
00:52:10
◼
►
story i think that was Turtledove yeah
[TS]
00:52:12
◼
►
oh yeah that's against a I've got any of
[TS]
00:52:15
◼
►
his books but i have read about the plot
[TS]
00:52:17
◼
►
kinds of the south yea i've i've read a
[TS]
00:52:21
◼
►
little bit of his stuff he wrote here at
[TS]
00:52:24
◼
►
understanding he wrote a great short
[TS]
00:52:25
◼
►
story that I like a lot of hindsight
[TS]
00:52:27
◼
►
that was an analog magazine that was
[TS]
00:52:29
◼
►
about science fiction writers and
[TS]
00:52:33
◼
►
editors and and science fiction writer
[TS]
00:52:36
◼
►
discovers this the story that he had
[TS]
00:52:38
◼
►
outlined but Sir filed as alright it
[TS]
00:52:40
◼
►
later and that full story is published
[TS]
00:52:43
◼
►
in a magazine under somebody else's name
[TS]
00:52:46
◼
►
and he thinks is this aliens and mind
[TS]
00:52:48
◼
►
control and all that and it turns out
[TS]
00:52:49
◼
►
it's a woman from 30 years in the future
[TS]
00:52:52
◼
►
who's gone back in time and and one of
[TS]
00:52:54
◼
►
the things she does to make a living
[TS]
00:52:55
◼
►
his cell classic short stories and
[TS]
00:52:58
◼
►
novels of the future in the past
[TS]
00:53:00
◼
►
including some that are are not fiction
[TS]
00:53:02
◼
►
but in the past they're considered
[TS]
00:53:04
◼
►
science fiction what Watergate that's a
[TS]
00:53:07
◼
►
real story that's one of the lines that
[TS]
00:53:09
◼
►
I like a lot and again it plays without
[TS]
00:53:11
◼
►
that idea that are you know our our our
[TS]
00:53:14
◼
►
presence seemed from the past would seem
[TS]
00:53:17
◼
►
ridiculous and science fictional not
[TS]
00:53:19
◼
►
quite all history but it's harry
[TS]
00:53:21
◼
►
turtledove close enough anything in
[TS]
00:53:24
◼
►
return of rights under a pen name or not
[TS]
00:53:26
◼
►
it's close enough history music he lives
[TS]
00:53:29
◼
►
in an alternate world I think he does
[TS]
00:53:32
◼
►
when there's a play by a twitter friend
[TS]
00:53:35
◼
►
of mine a playwright whose you might you
[TS]
00:53:38
◼
►
might see reviews of his plays at
[TS]
00:53:40
◼
►
io9.com which blew my mind the first
[TS]
00:53:42
◼
►
time I called up the page and went wait
[TS]
00:53:44
◼
►
a minute I know those people that's
[TS]
00:53:46
◼
►
and his name is Mack Rogers me and he he
[TS]
00:53:50
◼
►
writes a lot of science fiction theatre
[TS]
00:53:52
◼
►
which is cool and he has one play called
[TS]
00:53:54
◼
►
Universal robots which is a playoff of
[TS]
00:53:57
◼
►
the pub Rossum's Universal resins
[TS]
00:54:00
◼
►
Universal robots and and the stories
[TS]
00:54:02
◼
►
about what if the robots had gotten out
[TS]
00:54:05
◼
►
of control and took over Czechoslovakia
[TS]
00:54:07
◼
►
before we were too and it deserves again
[TS]
00:54:11
◼
►
spins off what would happen if you had
[TS]
00:54:14
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this sort of robotic country in the
[TS]
00:54:19
◼
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middle of World War two and it's a lot
[TS]
00:54:21
◼
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alright should we move on to the musical
[TS]
00:54:25
◼
►
question that everybody's not asking we
[TS]
00:54:27
◼
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accept me which is what are you reading
[TS]
00:54:30
◼
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I'd like to ask and Scott you have been
[TS]
00:54:32
◼
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on in so long you probably read like
[TS]
00:54:34
◼
►
15,000 books but you know let's let's
[TS]
00:54:38
◼
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I'm interested in what interesting
[TS]
00:54:41
◼
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things that you've been reading lately
[TS]
00:54:42
◼
►
and well I've been reading these three
[TS]
00:54:45
◼
►
books about this task for well yes those
[TS]
00:54:49
◼
►
remember the same really obviously i
[TS]
00:54:52
◼
►
will this month i've read a couple of
[TS]
00:54:55
◼
►
books in addition to that I've read the
[TS]
00:54:56
◼
►
thousand names which is so apparently
[TS]
00:55:00
◼
►
there's no a sub-genre of fantasy that
[TS]
00:55:03
◼
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is called
[TS]
00:55:05
◼
►
of flintlock magic or something like
[TS]
00:55:07
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that so basically it's the idea that
[TS]
00:55:09
◼
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it's a fantasy book people have muskets
[TS]
00:55:12
◼
►
and there's magic so this is a sub-genre
[TS]
00:55:15
◼
►
now and the thousand names by the django
[TS]
00:55:20
◼
►
Wexler I guess his name's is the first
[TS]
00:55:24
◼
►
in a trilogy of books about there's this
[TS]
00:55:28
◼
►
one reminds me of another offer that I
[TS]
00:55:30
◼
►
like a lot i've mentioned before
[TS]
00:55:31
◼
►
KJ parker a very different but very
[TS]
00:55:34
◼
►
similar as well that it's about this
[TS]
00:55:36
◼
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military force that goes into this
[TS]
00:55:37
◼
►
country in there you don't you're not
[TS]
00:55:39
◼
►
quite sure why they're going in there
[TS]
00:55:41
◼
►
they're looking for the thousand names
[TS]
00:55:43
◼
►
which I won't say what they are and
[TS]
00:55:44
◼
►
they're in insurgents that are attacking
[TS]
00:55:47
◼
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them and you think will is their magic
[TS]
00:55:49
◼
►
there may not be magic it might just be
[TS]
00:55:50
◼
►
coincidences turns out spoiler there's
[TS]
00:55:53
◼
►
magic uh-huh
[TS]
00:55:55
◼
►
yes and rifles so there you go that's
[TS]
00:55:57
◼
►
the twist
[TS]
00:55:58
◼
►
I've read another book called Lowton
[TS]
00:56:01
◼
►
based on a recommendation by an author
[TS]
00:56:05
◼
►
mike cole who writes military science
[TS]
00:56:07
◼
►
fiction on me on twitter he said
[TS]
00:56:10
◼
►
everyone should read Lowton I was like
[TS]
00:56:12
◼
►
alright i'll read it and I did
[TS]
00:56:14
◼
►
it's kind of a how to describe it's a
[TS]
00:56:20
◼
►
detective story basically in this kind
[TS]
00:56:24
◼
►
of like fantasy you are where this is
[TS]
00:56:28
◼
►
down on his luck guy is going around
[TS]
00:56:32
◼
►
trying to figure out something and
[TS]
00:56:35
◼
►
that's all I will say it's really good
[TS]
00:56:36
◼
►
though it's better than that
[TS]
00:56:37
◼
►
very brief and pour some hot licks a guy
[TS]
00:56:40
◼
►
is trying to figure things out and find
[TS]
00:56:43
◼
►
you've never read a book like this by
[TS]
00:56:45
◼
►
Daniel polanski is his name
[TS]
00:56:49
◼
►
so check that out and the thousand names
[TS]
00:56:52
◼
►
was good as well the thousand names is
[TS]
00:56:53
◼
►
like 800 pages long and if you aren't
[TS]
00:56:57
◼
►
really into a lot of military talk you
[TS]
00:56:59
◼
►
might not want and you want more magic
[TS]
00:57:02
◼
►
in your fantasy because the magic
[TS]
00:57:03
◼
►
happens like maybe Paige 700 there's a
[TS]
00:57:06
◼
►
little magic in it but you might not
[TS]
00:57:08
◼
►
want to get into that all right David
[TS]
00:57:12
◼
►
what are you reading well I got to right
[TS]
00:57:15
◼
►
now I'm reading a graphic novel so the
[TS]
00:57:19
◼
►
next few seconds for Scott will just be
[TS]
00:57:21
◼
►
like white noise this book i'm not quite
[TS]
00:57:24
◼
►
sure but it's it's a book called Templer
[TS]
00:57:29
◼
►
by Jordan mekin her Beckner i think is
[TS]
00:57:33
◼
►
that the guy who did prince of persia
[TS]
00:57:34
◼
►
exactly that's a video game
[TS]
00:57:37
◼
►
what is going on I all I i have no idea
[TS]
00:57:41
◼
►
i saw in the library and went what's the
[TS]
00:57:43
◼
►
over what are you reading you've chosen
[TS]
00:57:44
◼
►
a graphic novel written by a guy who
[TS]
00:57:46
◼
►
doesn't video game
[TS]
00:57:47
◼
►
how did you get on this podcast if I'm
[TS]
00:57:51
◼
►
gonna do a book that's like a cookbook
[TS]
00:57:54
◼
►
why celebrity not even a celebrity chef
[TS]
00:57:57
◼
►
a cookbook is a political pundit just
[TS]
00:58:00
◼
►
because it's random unos going to be
[TS]
00:58:02
◼
►
sure didn't even finish the book we were
[TS]
00:58:05
◼
►
talking about
[TS]
00:58:06
◼
►
I didn't even look at the names on the
[TS]
00:58:08
◼
►
recovery just open it up and what's this
[TS]
00:58:10
◼
►
and and so that so that it was described
[TS]
00:58:13
◼
►
as sort of a blend of name of the rose
[TS]
00:58:15
◼
►
and oceans 11 and i just walked right to
[TS]
00:58:18
◼
►
the desk like I'm taking this at-bat and
[TS]
00:58:22
◼
►
when I got home was like oh wait a
[TS]
00:58:23
◼
►
minute video game guy huh so it's pretty
[TS]
00:58:27
◼
►
cool and I've got the lies of locke
[TS]
00:58:31
◼
►
lamora oh yes a little interesting here
[TS]
00:58:34
◼
►
which I haven't I haven't started i have
[TS]
00:58:37
◼
►
probably either one of you could
[TS]
00:58:39
◼
►
describe it better than I can
[TS]
00:58:40
◼
►
and partly Scott's one of the people who
[TS]
00:58:43
◼
►
said oh yes you should read that damn
[TS]
00:58:45
◼
►
Lauren bought that book for me he gifted
[TS]
00:58:47
◼
►
it to me and it's 99 cents read it
[TS]
00:58:50
◼
►
that's right that's your table is one of
[TS]
00:58:52
◼
►
the other ones yeah oh yes you will like
[TS]
00:58:54
◼
►
this second one not as good hopefully
[TS]
00:58:56
◼
►
the third one will be very good we're
[TS]
00:58:58
◼
►
just coming over soon but I realize lock
[TS]
00:59:01
◼
►
Morris one of the ones that I'm uh I'm
[TS]
00:59:04
◼
►
i'm reading that right now and it's
[TS]
00:59:06
◼
►
interesting i'm still trying to figure
[TS]
00:59:08
◼
►
out exactly what's going on
[TS]
00:59:10
◼
►
yeah okay because there's that there's
[TS]
00:59:12
◼
►
that there's a prologue that is like a
[TS]
00:59:15
◼
►
whole book it's a very long prologue and
[TS]
00:59:19
◼
►
then it and then you've you get to the
[TS]
00:59:21
◼
►
end of that you're thinking
[TS]
00:59:22
◼
►
whoo boy what will happen next in
[TS]
00:59:24
◼
►
chapter 2 and you flip the page and it
[TS]
00:59:26
◼
►
says chapter one and you say what I was
[TS]
00:59:28
◼
►
still reading the prologue but that's
[TS]
00:59:32
◼
►
just how it is with that book and then
[TS]
00:59:34
◼
►
there's it's all thieves and they're
[TS]
00:59:35
◼
►
stealing things from its thieves and
[TS]
00:59:37
◼
►
then other people who were thieves and
[TS]
00:59:39
◼
►
then like everybody's a thief in this in
[TS]
00:59:42
◼
►
this saves all the way to its thieves
[TS]
00:59:44
◼
►
it's all thieves so I've got that i'm
[TS]
00:59:47
◼
►
reading that now I i finished reading
[TS]
00:59:49
◼
►
another recommendation another dan moore
[TS]
00:59:53
◼
►
and recommendation actually midnight
[TS]
00:59:54
◼
►
riot or rivers of London if you prefer
[TS]
00:59:57
◼
►
by been around a bitch
[TS]
01:00:00
◼
►
just an urban fantasy about a reminded
[TS]
01:00:04
◼
►
me a lot of the rook in some ways
[TS]
01:00:07
◼
►
because it's it's a sort of supernatural
[TS]
01:00:10
◼
►
cop in London so it had a little little
[TS]
01:00:15
◼
►
echo of the brook which we recommended
[TS]
01:00:16
◼
►
on a previous show which is a great book
[TS]
01:00:18
◼
►
and I liked it I liked it a lot and a
[TS]
01:00:24
◼
►
book that i read recently that i really
[TS]
01:00:26
◼
►
liked is nexus by run as nom who i was
[TS]
01:00:31
◼
►
actually I bought it because i was on a
[TS]
01:00:33
◼
►
podcast with him i was on the boing
[TS]
01:00:34
◼
►
boing podcast with him and mark
[TS]
01:00:36
◼
►
frauenfelder and I i thought hey author
[TS]
01:00:39
◼
►
of sci-fi i will buy your book now as
[TS]
01:00:41
◼
►
i'm talking to you and he's got a new
[TS]
01:00:43
◼
►
book out now but this is his previous
[TS]
01:00:46
◼
►
one and I liked it a lot is a crazy kind
[TS]
01:00:50
◼
►
of like he's exploring lots of issues
[TS]
01:00:52
◼
►
while also having lots of crazy action
[TS]
01:00:54
◼
►
so he doesn't shy away from from it's
[TS]
01:00:58
◼
►
not a boring book it where it's like
[TS]
01:01:00
◼
►
let's talk about issues it's it's
[TS]
01:01:01
◼
►
there's lots of crazy action but the the
[TS]
01:01:04
◼
►
premise is that in the near future these
[TS]
01:01:07
◼
►
people have come up with this it's like
[TS]
01:01:08
◼
►
a drug but it's also like nanotech and
[TS]
01:01:10
◼
►
it's and it's called nexus and
[TS]
01:01:12
◼
►
essentially goes into your brain and it
[TS]
01:01:16
◼
►
turns your brain into a computer that
[TS]
01:01:19
◼
►
can be interfaced with other brains and
[TS]
01:01:21
◼
►
they can write software just in your
[TS]
01:01:24
◼
►
brain they don't need to like implant
[TS]
01:01:25
◼
►
anything in your brain it's just the the
[TS]
01:01:27
◼
►
drug the this nano stuff is in your in
[TS]
01:01:31
◼
►
your brain and then it plays out all the
[TS]
01:01:34
◼
►
ramifications of that again sort of like
[TS]
01:01:35
◼
►
what we said about the the time-travel
[TS]
01:01:37
◼
►
ramifications i really like it when they
[TS]
01:01:38
◼
►
play out all of the questions so this is
[TS]
01:01:40
◼
►
witness be cool you could you can
[TS]
01:01:44
◼
►
experience the emotional states of the
[TS]
01:01:45
◼
►
people around you and you can kind of
[TS]
01:01:47
◼
►
all kind of connect together and achieve
[TS]
01:01:49
◼
►
a higher consciousness but it also means
[TS]
01:01:52
◼
►
you can like to mind control and create
[TS]
01:01:55
◼
►
assassins who are unwilling assassins
[TS]
01:01:57
◼
►
and all these terrible things and create
[TS]
01:01:59
◼
►
a dystopian where governments are using
[TS]
01:02:02
◼
►
this to undermine freedom of thought and
[TS]
01:02:05
◼
►
it's all kind of in there together along
[TS]
01:02:08
◼
►
with some kind of almost singularity
[TS]
01:02:11
◼
►
like stuff about you know if
[TS]
01:02:13
◼
►
you if you do enough of this are they
[TS]
01:02:15
◼
►
people anymore are we sort of past
[TS]
01:02:18
◼
►
people and to some transhuman kind of
[TS]
01:02:20
◼
►
thing really interesting along with like
[TS]
01:02:22
◼
►
I said a lot of fun kind of crazy action
[TS]
01:02:25
◼
►
through the eyes of the two main
[TS]
01:02:27
◼
►
characters who are a scientist who has
[TS]
01:02:28
◼
►
gotten caught up in this in the
[TS]
01:02:30
◼
►
development of Nexus and a woman who is
[TS]
01:02:34
◼
►
a a an operative for the u.s. government
[TS]
01:02:36
◼
►
who when we are introduced to her
[TS]
01:02:39
◼
►
we sort of feel like she's you know
[TS]
01:02:41
◼
►
we're meant to think that the u.s.
[TS]
01:02:44
◼
►
government da world for the u.s.
[TS]
01:02:46
◼
►
government and then as the book goes
[TS]
01:02:47
◼
►
along you're like maybe I'm not for the
[TS]
01:02:49
◼
►
u.s. government after all which is a
[TS]
01:02:50
◼
►
nice flip around two so nexus romance
[TS]
01:02:53
◼
►
nom I i recommend it i like that one a
[TS]
01:02:56
◼
►
lot so that's what I've been reading and
[TS]
01:02:57
◼
►
then i read also these three books about
[TS]
01:02:59
◼
►
these 21st century Navy people who get
[TS]
01:03:01
◼
►
plopped down in 1940's crazy it's pretty
[TS]
01:03:05
◼
►
wild anymore it's pretty wild analyze
[TS]
01:03:07
◼
►
welcome lamora you know because then
[TS]
01:03:09
◼
►
more and shoved it into my hands and
[TS]
01:03:11
◼
►
said look this
[TS]
01:03:13
◼
►
ok you shoved into my amazon account
[TS]
01:03:15
◼
►
same thing it's true
[TS]
01:03:17
◼
►
well i can i can confirm that then it's
[TS]
01:03:19
◼
►
not like it's a good book and if you
[TS]
01:03:21
◼
►
don't like it there's something wrong
[TS]
01:03:22
◼
►
with you alright fair enough fair enough
[TS]
01:03:25
◼
►
so that that I think we've I think we've
[TS]
01:03:28
◼
►
settled all the old scores
[TS]
01:03:29
◼
►
Scott how how was it are you are you
[TS]
01:03:31
◼
►
back on the on the bicycle now back I
[TS]
01:03:34
◼
►
well you know i think i meani I might
[TS]
01:03:36
◼
►
need another one under my belt
[TS]
01:03:38
◼
►
yeah i can get to my the same level of
[TS]
01:03:40
◼
►
podcasting XO fair now that I've
[TS]
01:03:42
◼
►
delivered
[TS]
01:03:43
◼
►
we're just not going to rest off now
[TS]
01:03:44
◼
►
that's it alright fair enough and David
[TS]
01:03:48
◼
►
you know you you were you are in full
[TS]
01:03:50
◼
►
podcasting shape now I think apparently
[TS]
01:03:53
◼
►
I you know I colors are more vivid
[TS]
01:03:56
◼
►
Harry's cleaner mean it's amazing
[TS]
01:03:58
◼
►
maybe and for the next book club maybe
[TS]
01:04:00
◼
►
you'll finish the book haha yes well
[TS]
01:04:03
◼
►
look what you want to find the end and
[TS]
01:04:05
◼
►
Glenn oh haha hey i read almost all of
[TS]
01:04:10
◼
►
the hugo books did you read almost all
[TS]
01:04:12
◼
►
of them like you read four of them or
[TS]
01:04:14
◼
►
did you read like yes 705 i just read
[TS]
01:04:17
◼
►
like eighty percent of each one
[TS]
01:04:19
◼
►
yeah good way to go sure no I just kind
[TS]
01:04:22
◼
►
of looked at 2312 and when now
[TS]
01:04:25
◼
►
yeah that the title suggests that you
[TS]
01:04:29
◼
►
should only read twenty-three percent of
[TS]
01:04:30
◼
►
it or perhaps twelve percent of our yeah
[TS]
01:04:32
◼
►
well yeah i still like 2012 sorry Scott
[TS]
01:04:36
◼
►
you you actually you actually like that
[TS]
01:04:38
◼
►
voted for the you go and then you said
[TS]
01:04:40
◼
►
congratulations John Scalzi don't
[TS]
01:04:42
◼
►
redshirts it shocking that John school
[TS]
01:04:45
◼
►
sees red shirt that's fine Pete feed her
[TS]
01:04:48
◼
►
not feed but the third book in the news
[TS]
01:04:50
◼
►
flash trilogy finished last so you know
[TS]
01:04:52
◼
►
haha them all there to restore a little
[TS]
01:04:55
◼
►
of my face yeah the voters
[TS]
01:04:57
◼
►
yeah my fellow voters should clearly our
[TS]
01:04:59
◼
►
part yes clearly are issues with a
[TS]
01:05:01
◼
►
nomination process and not with the
[TS]
01:05:02
◼
►
final voting process so yeah it's true
[TS]
01:05:06
◼
►
yeah alright well we learned what would
[TS]
01:05:08
◼
►
happen if Galactus was made of jello no
[TS]
01:05:10
◼
►
I think we did and we and we learned we
[TS]
01:05:16
◼
►
learned lots of things about the history
[TS]
01:05:18
◼
►
that didn't happen and the Nazis were
[TS]
01:05:21
◼
►
made of jobs and and more importantly we
[TS]
01:05:23
◼
►
have I think 200 itunes reviews now
[TS]
01:05:25
◼
►
which is great if you haven't if you
[TS]
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haven't reviewed the incomparable on
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itunes please do it that helps us a lot
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and for those who did participate in our
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in our challenge
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thank you most especially to Dave cork
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Roger who indeed got to house read books
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and look he sold he sold a book to David
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he sold three books to me and he sold
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two books to scott who had already
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bought one of them but hadn't read it
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yet so he sold 12 past Scott to retro
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actively to pass Scott exactly the new
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Australian could write and read and he
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sold the book it's a damn moron who then
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didn't really read much of it and didn't
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come on the podcast so it was a
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disappointment that more
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yeah and and there are two more books
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that i have to buy yeah exactly now
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they're interesting i recommended by i
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would say anybody who who like some
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military stuff war stuff and sci-fi
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would really would really like it and if
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you're interested if you're intrigued by
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what we talked about the culture clash
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stuff i guess i'd say just kind of motor
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through the first twenty-five percent of
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the book and then
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01:06:27
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hello you're a big j edgar hoover fan
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you mean you may not want to read these
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books because these books fully endorse
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that the the j edgar hoover uh
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alt history of him being closeted and
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liking to dress in women's clothes and
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all those things that are not i believe
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not entirely substantiated in the
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historical record i looked it up i was
[TS]
01:06:52
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like where those was that proven to be
[TS]
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true and very little of of Hoover's
[TS]
01:06:57
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history is is is proven to be that it's
[TS]
01:07:00
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it's much more just speculation but this
[TS]
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book runs with it which is actually kind
[TS]
01:07:07
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of funny and fun in a way it is but I
[TS]
01:07:09
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capris I sheesh this guy really doesn't
[TS]
01:07:10
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like over over all of the axes to grind
[TS]
01:07:14
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against Jagger Hoover oi
[TS]
01:07:16
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yeah yeah you hate j edgar hoover this
[TS]
01:07:19
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is a buy these books immediately
[TS]
01:07:21
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absolutely Hoover fans steer clear
[TS]
01:07:26
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Hoover valuable service that we've been
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01:07:28
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yes I'd here on overcast
[TS]
01:07:31
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that's right our friends at the j edgar
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01:07:32
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hoover podcast are going to be really
[TS]
01:07:34
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upset with this series let me tell you
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01:07:36
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all right well that wraps up another
[TS]
01:07:39
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exciting book club edition of the
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incomparable so i'm going to say goodbye
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01:07:42
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to my fine well-read guests David lower
[TS]
01:07:46
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thanks for being here thank you for
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01:07:48
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having me and Scott melty welcome back
[TS]
01:07:51
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thank you for being back with us and
[TS]
01:07:53
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reading the books as always thank you
[TS]
01:07:55
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for having I was concerned that i had
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01:07:57
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been cast from the uncomfortable galaxy
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01:08:01
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no no another universe would never
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happen you were not available person who
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01:08:06
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remembered it
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01:08:06
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plus you are attention master that's
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true how could we not have our dungeon
[TS]
01:08:11
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master with us that would be at that is
[TS]
01:08:13
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an alternate past 20 riffic to
[TS]
01:08:16
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contemplate a degree yes
[TS]
01:08:19
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okay well until next time or until
[TS]
01:08:22
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somebody goes back in time and create a
[TS]
01:08:23
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parallel universe and we have to start
[TS]
01:08:25
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again from episode one
[TS]
01:08:26
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please don't do that kind i'm your host
[TS]
01:08:30
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Jason cell
[TS]
01:08:30
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thank you for listening don't go back in
[TS]
01:08:32
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time don't mess up the time stream and
[TS]
01:08:35
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we'll see you next time
[TS]