The Talk Show

00:00:00 ◼   ► now I always end up seeking back to figure out what part I missed where [TS]

00:00:04 ◼   ► where the podcast started to realize it just starts it is how it goes Craig it [TS]

00:00:12 ◼   ► is so we add this is a great thrill for me to be speaking to you [TS]

00:00:20 ◼   ► craig Venter et senior vice president of software engineering was the company [TS]

00:00:28 ◼   ► Apple Apple Apple yes and we are talking on the occasion of the open sourcing of [TS]

00:00:38 ◼   ► Swift which went live last week what day was it last week was last thursday was a [TS]

00:00:46 ◼   ► knit yeah it's a huge yeah yeah it's better was it was incredibly exciting [TS]

00:00:52 ◼   ► for us yes so we're speaking as we speak it's about a week later so how do you [TS]

00:00:56 ◼   ► think this first week of swift as an open source project is gone [TS]

00:01:00 ◼   ► yeah really really well i mean the the level of activity on on get home buyers [TS]

00:01:06 ◼   ► is off the charts I mean we we've had really high aspirations for swift from [TS]

00:01:11 ◼   ► the beginning but at every step it's been pretty amazing for us how much [TS]

00:01:16 ◼   ► bigger it's gone and we could have could have ever hoped and I think already on [TS]

00:01:20 ◼   ► github were more active project then I think all the other languages that are [TS]

00:01:24 ◼   ► on get help which is just just incredible for first we can go over [TS]

00:01:28 ◼   ► 60,000 people have taken a clone of the project so it's it's it's pretty amazing [TS]

00:01:37 ◼   ► and the team is just ecstatic over the whole thing there's different ways for a [TS]

00:01:43 ◼   ► big company especially a big company to do [TS]

00:01:45 ◼   ► quote-unquote open source project there's sort of like yes technically [TS]

00:01:49 ◼   ► it's open source but it's really just sort of a zip file with a open source [TS]

00:01:53 ◼   ► license and there goes you have at it [TS]

00:01:57 ◼   ► and then there's the actively engaging in a community manner with the outer [TS]

00:02:06 ◼   ► world and i'd so when you guys announced a double-double PCs with to be open [TS]

00:02:10 ◼   ► source I think there was some skeptics who thought maybe it was going to be a [TS]

00:02:13 ◼   ► while technically it's open source in here it is but this is really like [TS]

00:02:17 ◼   ► full-throttle fully engaged with the world outside Cupertino yeah I mean it's [TS]

00:02:24 ◼   ► funny I guess there there always will be skeptics but anyone who's been watching [TS]

00:02:29 ◼   ► our team in the context of the yellow VMworld climbing lol debe entender [TS]

00:02:36 ◼   ► WebKit team would see how much developing in the open is the the spirit [TS]

00:02:44 ◼   ► of those teams and so the swift team has been among the most engaged with our [TS]

00:02:50 ◼   ► developer community of any group in Apple even even prior to open sourcing [TS]

00:02:55 ◼   ► in terms of from the first launch of our Announcements with 10 in the App Store I [TS]

00:03:00 ◼   ► mean at the wEDC and how much they were engaging with all the feedback that was [TS]

00:03:06 ◼   ► coming in and modifying the language right up to 21 . oh and beyond and this [TS]

00:03:13 ◼   ► is really an extension of how the only way they really have ever wanted to work [TS]

00:03:17 ◼   ► and so yeah they they are very excited to be working completely in the open and [TS]

00:03:23 ◼   ► it really is a case where as in all the features in in swift that will be [TS]

00:03:29 ◼   ► announcing officially to the world and our next developer conference [TS]

00:03:34 ◼   ► you know you can sort of see them unfold before your eyes in the time leading up [TS]

00:03:37 ◼   ► to that as they're working on the open on github just like everything else [TS]

00:03:42 ◼   ► Apple does very very similar to everything else we do that's the thing [TS]

00:03:49 ◼   ► that to me is most and I know that you know get home makes it easy to track all [TS]

00:03:52 ◼   ► these changes and see how many people are involved but to me that if you just [TS]

00:03:56 ◼   ► wanna quick look at just how much this is a collaboration between the swift [TS]

00:04:02 ◼   ► team at Apple and the outside world it's the swift evolution mailing list [TS]

00:04:09 ◼   ► where you know you guys have been up front about this right from swift 1.0 in [TS]

00:04:15 ◼   ► 2014 that this is not a finished language we didn't you know you didnt go [TS]

00:04:20 ◼   ► and finish a language and here it is [TS]

00:04:22 ◼   ► have added you know we are still working on this a lot of what we're going to be [TS]

00:04:27 ◼   ► working on is tell us what what you need here on the mailing list there are [TS]

00:04:32 ◼   ► people actively engaging and and employees from Apple you know Chris [TS]

00:04:36 ◼   ► Lattner in the people on Steam are fully engaging with these ideas and proposals [TS]

00:04:41 ◼   ► that are coming from outside the company already one week one week into it being [TS]

00:04:46 ◼   ► an open source project oh yeah i i really think our team is really seasoned [TS]

00:04:52 ◼   ► team in the world of of developing languages and and we know that a [TS]

00:04:57 ◼   ► language really can't be developed in the vacuum it's it is a product of of [TS]

00:05:03 ◼   ► how people use it the problems that people are trying to solve and so we [TS]

00:05:08 ◼   ► knew from the outset was swift 10 that we could come up with the language that [TS]

00:05:12 ◼   ► first step you have to crystallize your basic ideas and have a starting point [TS]

00:05:16 ◼   ► but we knew we needed feedback then to work toward the language that that [TS]

00:05:21 ◼   ► ultimately Swift has and has become and will become the future but that we we [TS]

00:05:27 ◼   ► needed to have this kind of open open dialogue open sourcing is as you say [TS]

00:05:32 ◼   ► just really accelerating and deepening the kind of be back that that we're [TS]

00:05:37 ◼   ► getting in so it's it's really energizing for us I think it's really [TS]

00:05:41 ◼   ► exciting for a lot of the developers in our community as well be a part of it [TS]

00:05:45 ◼   ► what are the other reasons too [TS]

00:05:49 ◼   ► to go open source with with a new programming language you know when we [TS]

00:05:55 ◼   ► talked about it just briefly wEDC I think we laid out the big ones which [TS]

00:06:00 ◼   ► which are for us [TS]

00:06:02 ◼   ► Swift is we think the primary programming language that developers [TS]

00:06:09 ◼   ► should be taught to programming in actually mean if you're gonna learn [TS]

00:06:13 ◼   ► computer science Swift is a fantastic learning language [TS]

00:06:16 ◼   ► and if you're a developer who is going to invest huge part of your career in in [TS]

00:06:23 ◼   ► mastering swift and developing codons with your gonna want the ability to use [TS]

00:06:28 ◼   ► that code in every context possible to use your skill in that language in all [TS]

00:06:33 ◼   ► the environments in which you have to work to do your job so whether your [TS]

00:06:36 ◼   ► script in your build system writing web services of course writing your mobile [TS]

00:06:43 ◼   ► applications we want to make sure that that's you can invest in swift in that [TS]

00:06:49 ◼   ► way and know that it's going to be available to you [TS]

00:06:51 ◼   ► everywhere and so we saw open sourcing as a critical element tool make swift [TS]

00:06:57 ◼   ► reach its potential to be to be language the major language for the next twenty [TS]

00:07:03 ◼   ► years of programming in our industry it's a really ambitious goal it is it is [TS]

00:07:09 ◼   ► but i i think you know at every point along the way is this this has been our [TS]

00:07:14 ◼   ► vision from before we first unleashed Swift on the world but at every step [TS]

00:07:19 ◼   ► actually the reaction has really outdone our expectations so maybe our goal isn't [TS]

00:07:28 ◼   ► so outlandish do you think that I would say that that for education purposes it [TS]

00:07:34 ◼   ► really has to be open source because there's really no way that language is [TS]

00:07:38 ◼   ► going to take take root as a teaching language if its proprietary to Apple [TS]

00:07:45 ◼   ► platform or any other you know [TS]

00:07:48 ◼   ► vendors platform right you know we had a lot of universities who would teach a [TS]

00:07:54 ◼   ► specialized mobile programming course on iOS programming course in that context [TS]

00:07:58 ◼   ► of course they teach swift and and Stanford has an outstanding courses on [TS]

00:08:03 ◼   ► iTunes you about programming in Swift 22 program on iOS [TS]

00:08:08 ◼   ► but when it comes to bringing in the core curriculum that every student in [TS]

00:08:12 ◼   ► the University acetate to let's say learn computer science making an open [TS]

00:08:16 ◼   ► source having it available to every student on whatever platform they're [TS]

00:08:20 ◼   ► going to use to do their work is is we we think ultimately huge enabler and so [TS]

00:08:27 ◼   ► many of the people we talked to the professors wanted to use the language in [TS]

00:08:32 ◼   ► these ways but they needed it to be open source for this to happen and so we're [TS]

00:08:39 ◼   ► really excited to follow through with them on this why not open source it what [TS]

00:08:46 ◼   ► what were the downsides that were debated before you decide you know made [TS]

00:08:50 ◼   ► the decision to go with it you know that there really weren't [TS]

00:08:56 ◼   ► of course talked it over [TS]

00:08:59 ◼   ► linked with a tough time coming up with a significant reason not to do it it was [TS]

00:09:06 ◼   ► more a when question is is it now and we knew after 10 that that we weren't quite [TS]

00:09:14 ◼   ► there that we wanted to get that first round of feedback begin to stabilize the [TS]

00:09:18 ◼   ► definition of a language but as we got close to WWDC this last year we realized [TS]

00:09:26 ◼   ► we were where we needed to be to take a step that we knew was was gonna happen [TS]

00:09:30 ◼   ► it was going to be this year was going to be that the following year and and we [TS]

00:09:33 ◼   ► realized we were where we needed to be and so we we moved ahead and the hunger [TS]

00:09:39 ◼   ► out there [TS]

00:09:40 ◼   ► was was so great we thought let's let's do it now but but the downsides are are [TS]

00:09:46 ◼   ► really limited I mean I think it's it's inevitable but positive that Swift will [TS]

00:09:52 ◼   ► be used in all kinds of context outside of Apple that's that's kind of the point [TS]

00:09:56 ◼   ► so that's fine it's clear we're gonna get a lot of people wanting to do things [TS]

00:10:03 ◼   ► with the language that are directly related to Apple's line of business and [TS]

00:10:08 ◼   ► that's ok right that's that's actually fine as well so they're just there [TS]

00:10:14 ◼   ► weren't a lot of down sides and and we think the up sides are tremendous one of [TS]

00:10:21 ◼   ► the areas that I would I think it's definitely I see so much excitement [TS]

00:10:24 ◼   ► about it already is in terms of being cross platform is the use of Swift on [TS]

00:10:28 ◼   ► servers yes and you know a lot of that is certainly going to be limits and you [TS]

00:10:33 ◼   ► guys have already done the port to Linux that's right and and that's that's an [TS]

00:10:38 ◼   ► area where I feel like I have no idea why I feel like it's going to be used [TS]

00:10:43 ◼   ► but i just so we're clear we don't know where that's going to be but do you do [TS]

00:10:47 ◼   ► you see that happening that it's going to be used for a lot of server-based [TS]

00:10:50 ◼   ► development that's really outside Apple's platforms oh totally yeah I mean [TS]

00:10:55 ◼   ► you know from really the out said IBM for instance jumped all over swift for [TS]

00:11:01 ◼   ► building their mobile apps and almost immediately they were coming back to us [TS]

00:11:07 ◼   ► with we really want to use this on the server how can we can we get this on the [TS]

00:11:12 ◼   ► server and of course with an Apple is tremendous passion for swift and our own [TS]

00:11:18 ◼   ► iCloud team has been completely chomping at the bit to be able to apply it in in [TS]

00:11:22 ◼   ► many many of the things they do [TS]

00:11:24 ◼   ► so I think it's it's going to be the first among the first country gal uses [TS]

00:11:30 ◼   ► of swift and of course these days so many mobile applications are part mobile [TS]

00:11:36 ◼   ► app part server code and a lot of cases you you the very least want to share [TS]

00:11:40 ◼   ► your knowledge but very often you wanna share parts your code parts your model [TS]

00:11:44 ◼   ► layers are you till the library she wants and and having swift enabling you [TS]

00:11:49 ◼   ► to do that is going to be huge for a lot of our community [TS]

00:11:53 ◼   ► I can definitely see that that to me is sort of the building for the future [TS]

00:11:58 ◼   ► various aspects of Swift vs say Objective C which has roots from 20 or [TS]

00:12:06 ◼   ► even thirty years ago and yet the fact that the the cloud of everyone I call it [TS]

00:12:12 ◼   ► but you know client software running on a device talking to servers some are [TS]

00:12:17 ◼   ► often internet is part of why I would save almost certainly the overwhelming [TS]

00:12:22 ◼   ► majority of apps that are being written for these platforms that having a [TS]

00:12:26 ◼   ► language that makes sense in both ends of the communication is huge [TS]

00:12:31 ◼   ► exactly exactly and you know if you if you look at where I think it is for a [TS]

00:12:36 ◼   ► lot of developers prior to Swift they probably were using Objective C if they [TS]

00:12:44 ◼   ► had high performance code they had to write part of objective Cesc and so they [TS]

00:12:48 ◼   ► were dropping down into see to do some of the more optimized work which can be [TS]

00:12:52 ◼   ► almost another language there's a real continuum there within the environment [TS]

00:12:57 ◼   ► they might have been using a scripting language for part of what they do and [TS]

00:13:02 ◼   ► then they might be using a server-side language like Java and swift is uniquely [TS]

00:13:08 ◼   ► capable of spanning from really easy and natural kind of scripting expressive [TS]

00:13:13 ◼   ► uses its a great application programming language but it was also designed to be [TS]

00:13:18 ◼   ► a great systems language and be really fast so that you can do see kind of high [TS]

00:13:22 ◼   ► performance work without compromises in swift and then it's gonna work in in the [TS]

00:13:27 ◼   ► cloud as well so [TS]

00:13:29 ◼   ► I think it's going to really unified environment for a lot of developers is a [TS]

00:13:35 ◼   ► how would you describe systems language addison's disease rate from the one of [TS]

00:13:41 ◼   ► my note here from the swift programming language it says Swift is intended to be [TS]

00:13:45 ◼   ► quote the first industrial quality systems programming language that is [TS]

00:13:49 ◼   ► expressive an enjoyable as a scripting language designed to scale from hello [TS]

00:13:53 ◼   ► world to an entire operating system but what does systems programming language [TS]

00:13:59 ◼   ► well there there's there's some some low-level bits and and some matters of [TS]

00:14:05 ◼   ► spirit I think in terms of low-level bits with has a very predictable memory [TS]

00:14:13 ◼   ► management model a very very contained runtime if you look at traditional [TS]

00:14:18 ◼   ► scripting languages or languages like Java there they run garbage collectors [TS]

00:14:27 ◼   ► you really can't control memory in a way so swift builds on our our technology [TS]

00:14:35 ◼   ► that first came to Objective C [TS]

00:14:38 ◼   ► to provide really high performance and really predictable and manageable memory [TS]

00:14:42 ◼   ► management which means that if you wanted to write everything from an [TS]

00:14:46 ◼   ► operating system kernel to high-performance graphics library you [TS]

00:14:50 ◼   ► could do that without inheriting a huge per process memory footprint overhead [TS]

00:14:55 ◼   ► and you see that when you see how Apple's OS and apps are able to run in a [TS]

00:15:03 ◼   ► lower memory footprint and we're able to ship devices with her memory footprints [TS]

00:15:07 ◼   ► then competitors who use language that don't have this characteristic but Swift [TS]

00:15:13 ◼   ► is also designed so that when it can be fast it's as fast as can be so we aren't [TS]

00:15:21 ◼   ► taking the overhead of dynamic dispatch for every call but yeah we can provide [TS]

00:15:27 ◼   ► dynamism when when needed [TS]

00:15:31 ◼   ► we can optimize you use an array and swift we can be every bit is optimal and [TS]

00:15:38 ◼   ► do [TS]

00:15:39 ◼   ► vectorization and parallelization in ways that you would expect from after my [TS]

00:15:45 ◼   ► C code but a very hard to do if you were trying to optimize Ruby or Python or [TS]

00:15:52 ◼   ► even in Objective C you know NSArray built on top of the Foundation Classes [TS]

00:15:57 ◼   ► and so you can go very very low level and get very predictable performance [TS]

00:16:03 ◼   ► audio hardware so in other words it's at least comparisons compared to Objective [TS]

00:16:09 ◼   ► C that objective see there's so many great things we could say about it it's [TS]

00:16:12 ◼   ► served you know Apple so incredibly well it still will for the foreseeable future [TS]

00:16:18 ◼   ► in so many ways but there's this big butt which is that sometimes you need to [TS]

00:16:23 ◼   ► drop down into C C++ and now you're losing all of the stuff that you love [TS]

00:16:32 ◼   ► about Objective C because you need to drop down temporarily for performance [TS]

00:16:36 ◼   ► reasons and swift don't need to do that you can write a high-performance code [TS]

00:16:40 ◼   ► right in there that's right i mean swift I think one of them we first introduce [TS]

00:16:45 ◼   ► swift we we said we're imagining a world where we took we loved about Objective C [TS]

00:16:51 ◼   ► without caring for the baggage of see what that man is swift has to replace [TS]

00:16:57 ◼   ► see in its role in Objective C programming and it does that really well [TS]

00:17:02 ◼   ► while bringing all of these higher levels of abstraction and higher [TS]

00:17:08 ◼   ► productivity programming techniques to writing that kind of high-performance [TS]

00:17:12 ◼   ► systems code but also so great for poor out code so one thing that Swift is not [TS]

00:17:21 ◼   ► a mean and I think we've already covered this but it's not Objective C with [TS]

00:17:25 ◼   ► prettier better syntex and it's the syntax of objective see that people find [TS]

00:17:32 ◼   ► off-putting at least at first and I know that you know [TS]

00:17:36 ◼   ► that's a debate that the people who love objectives he interviewed that for [TS]

00:17:39 ◼   ► decades [TS]

00:17:39 ◼   ► you know it's a never-ending argument but at least at first even if you really [TS]

00:17:45 ◼   ► really love Objective C you after you can't avoid the fact that at first it [TS]

00:17:51 ◼   ► looked weird huh [TS]

00:17:53 ◼   ► admit I i'm Objective C lover and I i you know there were plenty of good [TS]

00:17:59 ◼   ► debates internally about you know should we have a small talk inspired syntax [TS]

00:18:03 ◼   ► should we should we stick with something like Objective C but but it is a in the [TS]

00:18:13 ◼   ► end it can go either way and what we were able to retain in swift are the [TS]

00:18:21 ◼   ► these serve literate nature of API's that Objective C enable the readability [TS]

00:18:26 ◼   ► of code with the labeled arguments and we brought all of that too swift while [TS]

00:18:32 ◼   ► the same time having a sin tax that is just much more concise and at this point [TS]

00:18:36 ◼   ► with the the server evolution of people's expectations are on programming [TS]

00:18:39 ◼   ► languages just much more natural for them is is part of the thinking there [TS]

00:18:45 ◼   ► that in terms of the small talk inspired dynamic runtime that you didn't need a [TS]

00:18:54 ◼   ► new language do that because you already have Objective C and that you can go you [TS]

00:18:59 ◼   ► know that for the future for the next twenty years that that sort of that sort [TS]

00:19:05 ◼   ► of model of looking at frameworks and programming languages isn't the best way [TS]

00:19:10 ◼   ► to go from here going forward [TS]

00:19:12 ◼   ► no i would i would really separate I know it's I would separate the the [TS]

00:19:16 ◼   ► syntax from some of the underline aspects of the runtime and the [TS]

00:19:23 ◼   ► programming model [TS]

00:19:24 ◼   ► swift you know some of my favorite features from Objective C are things [TS]

00:19:31 ◼   ► like protocols categories which it was in swift are called extensions and those [TS]

00:19:42 ◼   ► literate API's as well as first-class classes with with class methods all of [TS]

00:19:49 ◼   ► these things that are so important for us to build great API's and great [TS]

00:19:55 ◼   ► extensible frameworks were were brought to swift along with things like labeled [TS]

00:20:02 ◼   ► arguments and slowly we've also been bringing back much of the dynamism now [TS]

00:20:09 ◼   ► there's some things that are possible in Objective C and most the dynamism that [TS]

00:20:12 ◼   ► you really want is the ability to figure out what class is this really be able to [TS]

00:20:19 ◼   ► cast the class dynamically to a particular protocol to be able to do a [TS]

00:20:24 ◼   ► lack of response to select to perform selector check all these things are [TS]

00:20:28 ◼   ► possible and swift today [TS]

00:20:30 ◼   ► enter some other things that aren't but that certainly we consider important [TS]

00:20:34 ◼   ► ultimately brain bring to the language so this thing about a dynamic [TS]

00:20:39 ◼   ► programming model is is still very important to us now the some very unsafe [TS]

00:20:44 ◼   ► things that people do in Objective C and I've been guilty of this myself where [TS]

00:20:49 ◼   ► you walk the objective here on time and hack the method table and that's cool [TS]

00:20:53 ◼   ► but it is it is highly unsafe and doesn't lead to very maintainable [TS]

00:20:57 ◼   ► scalable large programs some of those techniques but the vast vast majority [TS]

00:21:00 ◼   ► what makes Objective C great and dynamic is is part of either part of Swift now [TS]

00:21:05 ◼   ► or certainly part of our ongoing ambition for the language but the thing [TS]

00:21:10 ◼   ► we didn't want to bring from Objective C is that in Objective C you're paying the [TS]

00:21:15 ◼   ► overhead of that dynamism all the time you know you're trying to use an array [TS]

00:21:21 ◼   ► or some some class and you've got the compiler with both hands tied behind its [TS]

00:21:25 ◼   ► back in terms of opportunities for optimization [TS]

00:21:28 ◼   ► and therefore seen the developer to then modify the way they've written their [TS]

00:21:33 ◼   ► code maybe drop down to see for something where performance matters for [TS]

00:21:37 ◼   ► swift because it's safer has more type information it gives the compiler what [TS]

00:21:42 ◼   ► it needs to optimize when it can but that that alone doesn't stand in the way [TS]

00:21:47 ◼   ► of all the in my opinion all the dynamism that matters in layman's terms [TS]

00:21:53 ◼   ► and probably been a long time since I program particularly but I think that [TS]

00:22:05 ◼   ► the big difference is that with with Objective C what you mean you know [TS]

00:22:12 ◼   ► people may not even know what a runtime is more like what it means is you [TS]

00:22:14 ◼   ► compile the abbot starts running and a lot of the stuff gets decided within the [TS]

00:22:19 ◼   ► app while it's running and with swift by by doing these things at compile time in [TS]

00:22:25 ◼   ► knowing more of the type information forcing you to to to be a little more [TS]

00:22:30 ◼   ► specific about the type information up front it it it enables the compiler to [TS]

00:22:37 ◼   ► do more efficient things before the ABA's even running because it's it's [TS]

00:22:41 ◼   ► happening at the time that the app is compiled that's right that's right in [TS]

00:22:46 ◼   ► the new permits all kinds of optimizations because maybe if the [TS]

00:22:50 ◼   ► compiler can determine ahead of time said absolutely this object you're about [TS]

00:22:56 ◼   ► to message is that a certain type and we know it's done whole module optimization [TS]

00:23:02 ◼   ► and we know what the result of that what that method is sometimes the compiler [TS]

00:23:07 ◼   ► could even in line the implementation in even involve the overhead a function [TS]

00:23:10 ◼   ► call so I let alone a dynamic method dispatch and so you really that's that's [TS]

00:23:16 ◼   ► part of how you can get these incredible you know and optimize see kinds of [TS]

00:23:20 ◼   ► performance numbers out of what looks at you get to write as as very high level [TS]

00:23:28 ◼   ► code so swift I think has a really excellent balance there but the key is [TS]

00:23:34 ◼   ► we still have a runtime where you can look at your classes and and introspect [TS]

00:23:41 ◼   ► down and and there's there's more of more of that coming with which partly is [TS]

00:23:49 ◼   ► is on an open road map and partly is you know and in terms of the framework for [TS]

00:23:54 ◼   ► the operating system obviously is the sort of thing to be able to talk about [TS]

00:23:57 ◼   ► in advance because that's not the stuff that that open source that's right i [TS]

00:24:01 ◼   ► mean some of it honestly you will you will see us bringing up over the course [TS]

00:24:08 ◼   ► of the coming months in the context the open source project because certain [TS]

00:24:11 ◼   ► things that that our team is well will take on will will bring them forward as [TS]

00:24:19 ◼   ► proposals to the open source community and then you'll see a start to implement [TS]

00:24:22 ◼   ► them so I don't wanna I wanna jump the gun and pronounce everything that the [TS]

00:24:26 ◼   ► team is thinking but as soon as they have already pronounced a bunch of the [TS]

00:24:32 ◼   ► things you know big big part of focus we want to make sure was clear right out of [TS]

00:24:36 ◼   ► the gates with swift was that the golf course with three was really to [TS]

00:24:42 ◼   ► stabilize the binary interface and to refine the API's and finalize our API [TS]

00:24:48 ◼   ► guidelines in all of those things because we want I think I think its the [TS]

00:24:52 ◼   ► the next important step is to really stabilize the language and the [TS]

00:24:57 ◼   ► environment for for community and that's a that's a big task one of the things [TS]

00:25:01 ◼   ► that's been so great about Objective C is it has this great stability where [TS]

00:25:09 ◼   ► that have enabled us to write frameworks with minor compatible interfaces release [TS]

00:25:14 ◼   ► of her release release something that languages like C++ really can get right [TS]

00:25:19 ◼   ► and we absolutely need to bring that to to Swift so we've we've brought forward [TS]

00:25:26 ◼   ► some of those goals but there are other things of course that will be [TS]

00:25:30 ◼   ► added to the 30 ambitions as time goes on over the coming months [TS]

00:25:35 ◼   ► one of the complaints I've seen and I am part of this is just it it impossible to [TS]

00:25:41 ◼   ► avoid I think with with how early in its evolution Swift was unveiled to the [TS]

00:25:47 ◼   ► world but that i've what i've seen from developer friend and just commentary on [TS]

00:25:52 ◼   ► the internet is that it's hard right now to write a large-scale application in [TS]

00:25:58 ◼   ► swift Apple AAPL has more people working on cocoa apps than any other company in [TS]

00:26:06 ◼   ► the world for obvious reasons you know how has the feedback from the internal [TS]

00:26:12 ◼   ► developers the people you know that people who work for you the engineers [TS]

00:26:16 ◼   ► who work for you [TS]

00:26:17 ◼   ► with extensive experience shipping user facing apps shape the direction of Swift [TS]

00:26:22 ◼   ► from 1.0 to what went on a road map for 3.0 yeah well I mean of course there [TS]

00:26:28 ◼   ► elements we have all all types here with an apple red just like there there are [TS]

00:26:32 ◼   ► people that are like the external community objective you know they start [TS]

00:26:40 ◼   ► out with the I love Objective C I don't wanna change to ok hold on maybe there's [TS]

00:26:45 ◼   ► something to this with thing to let me give it a try to my god I love it and so [TS]

00:26:50 ◼   ► they've we've gone through all the phases internally you know we've had [TS]

00:26:56 ◼   ► some really great adoption by teams like the team that does the doc and window [TS]

00:27:02 ◼   ► management analyst and who converted [TS]

00:27:06 ◼   ► implemented all their new features 40 capitan in in swift and started mass [TS]

00:27:10 ◼   ► converting all their code and say that they just couldn't imagine going back [TS]

00:27:15 ◼   ► and that they're they're more productive with it [TS]

00:27:18 ◼   ► part part of what our internal teams need to deal with though is that there [TS]

00:27:22 ◼   ► were keen on let's say the current version of Swift 2.0 while it's not done [TS]

00:27:29 ◼   ► yet and so it's it's a meanwhile it's not even WWDC level done yet right and [TS]

00:27:36 ◼   ► so and they're working on the interfaces in terms of our internal frameworks that [TS]

00:27:43 ◼   ► haven't been modernized for swift and so it can be you know they they they get it [TS]

00:27:48 ◼   ► rough they gotta go to really love it too [TS]

00:27:50 ◼   ► to make that leap because they're working on a very very bleeding edge [TS]

00:27:54 ◼   ► environment when we use an internally thankfully with with with 2.0 now you [TS]

00:28:00 ◼   ► know well out the door [TS]

00:28:01 ◼   ► that's that's stabilize things are good bit and they're really open to it but [TS]

00:28:05 ◼   ► there's there's been just a lot of feedback and a lot of it has helped with [TS]

00:28:12 ◼   ► the impedance making sure the impedance between Objective C and swift is is [TS]

00:28:18 ◼   ► absolutely minimize because of course we have and will continue to have continued [TS]

00:28:23 ◼   ► writing more Objective C code and so the ability of swift and Objective C code to [TS]

00:28:31 ◼   ► work together completely naturally is is a huge focus and a bunch of things like [TS]

00:28:37 ◼   ► Generic elections support for for lightweight generics in Objective C [TS]

00:28:41 ◼   ► where a big pain point internally and something that we fixed in language and [TS]

00:28:47 ◼   ► is now great for all of our oliver app developers externally so it's it's been [TS]

00:28:56 ◼   ► out it's been a not dissimilar road for us internally does to what you see [TS]

00:28:59 ◼   ► outside but in terms of swift and and and riding big absence certainly the [TS]

00:29:04 ◼   ► case that once with 10 came out and didn't we didn't support incremental [TS]

00:29:08 ◼   ► compilation and the very first updating so that was that was gonna be a limiting [TS]

00:29:13 ◼   ► factor for productivity for four people that the gaps a lot of that stuff has [TS]

00:29:18 ◼   ► changed and then in 2.0 having a good error handling model [TS]

00:29:22 ◼   ► availability check so you could span API versions these sorts of things really [TS]

00:29:29 ◼   ► address the vast majority of the pain points that that we were experienced in [TS]

00:29:34 ◼   ► that I think the community was experiencing about writing larger apps [TS]

00:29:37 ◼   ► and so much routes which is actually inherently better for building big gaps [TS]

00:29:44 ◼   ► because it makes it handles handles modules and namespaces in a way more [TS]

00:29:50 ◼   ► naturally in Objective C it makes the API contracts a little more clear the [TS]

00:29:55 ◼   ► code more maintainable so we're very comfortable objective season namespace [TS]

00:30:01 ◼   ► management was more or less let's just all agree to put unique initial right [TS]

00:30:07 ◼   ► that it's amazing it's taken us this far but yes yes that is basically when the [TS]

00:30:12 ◼   ► answer here so yes exactly it is you know I don't think I don't think maybe [TS]

00:30:18 ◼   ► the bar wasn't that high exactly we have halted over it how do you manage as as [TS]

00:30:23 ◼   ► the cheap mofo in charge of all this how do how do you manage the enthusiasm that [TS]

00:30:29 ◼   ► you could we have for swift and and the word to me seems to like a sincere [TS]

00:30:33 ◼   ► belief that Swift is the way forward with the necessary conservative news [TS]

00:30:39 ◼   ► that you need you know so that there still has to be a lot of objective see [TS]

00:30:43 ◼   ► written how aggressive can you be about putting teams on sure go ahead and do [TS]

00:30:48 ◼   ► that swept you know it's it's it's really mean people here are idealistic [TS]

00:30:54 ◼   ► yet really pragmatic and I think you see that as a as an apple characteristic in [TS]

00:31:00 ◼   ► in many many elements of of what we what we do and so teams know with the nature [TS]

00:31:06 ◼   ► of of what we're trying to get done in their area any given year the nature of [TS]

00:31:10 ◼   ► their code base whether Swift is the right answer for them or where it's the [TS]

00:31:17 ◼   ► right answer even teams where for one reason or the other they can't jump [TS]

00:31:23 ◼   ► right on Objective C or rather subject to see conversion to Swift now they then [TS]

00:31:29 ◼   ► you Swift heavily for writing all the unit test which is great because then at [TS]

00:31:35 ◼   ► least as they're introducing new API's they're experiencing their own API's in [TS]

00:31:39 ◼   ► swift [TS]

00:31:41 ◼   ► and leaving on you know sort of serving their own dog food in that regard we do [TS]

00:31:46 ◼   ► have some constraints internally which which were dressing but because we may [TS]

00:31:54 ◼   ► be made the something in our closet a little bit but we we still support [TS]

00:31:57 ◼   ► running 32 bit apps on the Mac and the 32 bit runtime doesn't actually supports [TS]

00:32:03 ◼   ► with right now and so what that means is if we've implemented a framework that's [TS]

00:32:09 ◼   ► available to 32 bit code we actually can write it and swift and that code of that [TS]

00:32:19 ◼   ► framework is used across iOS and OS 10 as many other frameworks are that [TS]

00:32:24 ◼   ► introduces a little stumbling block as well so you know teams recognize what's [TS]

00:32:28 ◼   ► practical and what's not practical and find ways to use with wherever they can [TS]

00:32:32 ◼   ► is no no shortage of of enthusiastic I this has been so geeky and so far the [TS]

00:32:43 ◼   ► best possible way I I really enjoyed I loved my eyesight did a whole round of [TS]

00:32:48 ◼   ► interviews last week and I read them all and I don't want to cover the same [TS]

00:32:52 ◼   ► ground and I don't think we did I think this is this is truly truly eye-opening [TS]

00:32:56 ◼   ► to me and i really appreciate your time but I really appreciate the openness is [TS]

00:33:03 ◼   ► there anything else you want to say before before we wrap up the segment [TS]

00:33:06 ◼   ► anything else you want to talk about with swift I just wanna say how you know [TS]

00:33:12 ◼   ► to to to the world or at least the subset of the world that listens to your [TS]

00:33:15 ◼   ► podcast which must be most of them that how how proud I am of the team that's [TS]

00:33:20 ◼   ► made swift possible reports there's Chris Lattner buddies is part of an [TS]

00:33:25 ◼   ► incredible team with with folks like Ted criminal conduct Gregor and even people [TS]

00:33:31 ◼   ► Swift is what we have an incredible compiler team we've also got people who [TS]

00:33:36 ◼   ► have been writing deep frameworks and apps with an Apple 444 in some cases [TS]

00:33:44 ◼   ► since the beginning of next step [TS]

00:33:46 ◼   ► I mean people like Ali Ozer you may know from his talks at watc [TS]

00:33:50 ◼   ► has been so vital in shaping the language and how the language with its [TS]

00:33:55 ◼   ► are frameworks and fits the needs of our developers and I'm just so thrilled with [TS]

00:33:59 ◼   ► the work that all of them do in the passion that they put into making swift [TS]

00:34:03 ◼   ► to success I just want to get that out there for everyone because we're in [TS]

00:34:08 ◼   ► their hundreds hundreds more behind them an incredible effort by our team would [TS]

00:34:15 ◼   ► you agree with this would I think that Apple is in a unique position to achieve [TS]

00:34:22 ◼   ► what you guys have set out to do which is to make it like the default language [TS]

00:34:26 ◼   ► that people might learn to program on for the next few decade [TS]

00:34:30 ◼   ► unique position to make that happen because you have these platforms [TS]

00:34:34 ◼   ► specially iOS but the Mac the watch anything else that might be coming in [TS]

00:34:39 ◼   ► the future TV TV TV TV that are so popular under such a draw that they've [TS]

00:34:49 ◼   ► made Objective C you know like the second or third most popular programming [TS]

00:34:54 ◼   ► language on some of these you know the lists of YA books people which i think [TS]

00:34:58 ◼   ► the Someone Like You has been you know was started in the next days you know [TS]

00:35:02 ◼   ► with you would have found out that in the year 2015 Objective C is second most [TS]

00:35:07 ◼   ► popular language you believed it right [TS]

00:35:11 ◼   ► a language that there's some initial reluctance of people to you know to get [TS]

00:35:15 ◼   ► on board with now there's this language that is so approachable and and really [TS]

00:35:20 ◼   ► almost has text level you know when you're talking about like hello world [TS]

00:35:24 ◼   ► type stuff really almost looks like pure pseudocode yeah that Apple is in the [TS]

00:35:30 ◼   ► unique position where the draw is there with the platforms to really really make [TS]

00:35:35 ◼   ► this exploding popularity consider any better I i think we we when we created [TS]

00:35:45 ◼   ► swift we what we wanted it of course to be a great language we also from the [TS]

00:35:51 ◼   ► outset want it to be a great language for [TS]

00:35:54 ◼   ► for our platforms and the fact that it and and embody the lessons that we [TS]

00:36:00 ◼   ► learned from creating so many deep frameworks and great apps over so many [TS]

00:36:05 ◼   ► years and what that man is on day one swift was what what wasn't a restart for [TS]

00:36:12 ◼   ► the community it wasn't a hey will let me learn a whole new set of frameworks [TS]

00:36:16 ◼   ► on the way for Apple to create a whole new set of frameworks Swift has been [TS]

00:36:19 ◼   ► this this automatic transmission for people who wanted to maybe who are new [TS]

00:36:24 ◼   ► to our platform and one to get started the whole world was open to them our [TS]

00:36:27 ◼   ► platform and I think that's been so huge to driving the energy around it and then [TS]

00:36:33 ◼   ► others have been drawn in just by the greatness of swift as it is I mean it's [TS]

00:36:37 ◼   ► amazing the script language conferences where people talking about different [TS]

00:36:40 ◼   ► functional programming paradigms and swift and all these different things you [TS]

00:36:44 ◼   ► can do with the language just based on what an amazing new language it is so [TS]

00:36:47 ◼   ► you bring those two communities together and it's it's magic right now thank you [TS]

00:36:54 ◼   ► so much Craig I really appreciate the time yeah thank you john so honored to [TS]

00:37:00 ◼   ► speak with you so thank you so much that I miss him you know what [TS]

00:37:09 ◼   ► since that ran has the first segment I might as well just jump right into a [TS]

00:37:15 ◼   ► sponsor read which I was definitely not going to do middle of the correct [TS]

00:37:19 ◼   ► battery totally should he would have just SAT there patiently I feel like I [TS]

00:37:26 ◼   ► could have done anything he was incredibly gracious it was absolutely I [TS]

00:37:30 ◼   ► expected him to be nice but he's no very nice [TS]

00:37:34 ◼   ► let me tell you about our good friends at Casper you guys know casper the [TS]

00:37:41 ◼   ► company's URL I frequently get wrong and I won't today these guys make [TS]

00:37:46 ◼   ► obsessively engineered mattresses and they sell in an incredibly fair prices [TS]

00:37:51 ◼   ► just the right thing just the right amount you don't have to sit there and [TS]

00:37:55 ◼   ► go through their website and pick three different types of mattresses you want [TS]

00:37:59 ◼   ► to bring you want memory foam latex now these guys are mattress experts to Apple [TS]

00:38:05 ◼   ► of of mattresses where they figured it out themselves and they sell one type of [TS]

00:38:09 ◼   ► mattress it's their own custom blend of latex foam memory foam that has just the [TS]

00:38:14 ◼   ► right thing just a rebound seat on tour but I do is pick what size what size you [TS]

00:38:21 ◼   ► want you want to queen size you want king size you want when size whatever [TS]

00:38:25 ◼   ► you need as you do you go to the website order it comes to your house in little [TS]

00:38:30 ◼   ► box put in a room opening up in a mix of soaks up the air narrative now you say I [TS]

00:38:37 ◼   ► don't wanna buy a mattress without trying it risk-free you get a hundred [TS]

00:38:41 ◼   ► days to try sleeping on this on your actual bed in your actual house hundred [TS]

00:38:45 ◼   ► days and if you don't like it it's painless return you just go to the [TS]

00:38:49 ◼   ► website online they'll take care of those send somebody in your house and [TS]

00:38:54 ◼   ► get this mattress house couldn't be easier there's no hard sell if you [TS]

00:38:58 ◼   ► decide to send it back [TS]

00:39:00 ◼   ► could not be easier mattresses are made in America and the prices are [TS]

00:39:04 ◼   ► unbelievable 500 bucks for twin size mattress up to 950 for a king size [TS]

00:39:08 ◼   ► mattress if you shop for a premium king size mattress last few years you know [TS]

00:39:13 ◼   ► how great a price point that is I think it's fair to say that that's about half [TS]

00:39:17 ◼   ► the price that you would pay for premium mattress at like a retail mattress store [TS]

00:39:22 ◼   ► so really really great could not be easier you know have to go to the store [TS]

00:39:25 ◼   ► you don't have to get this mattress only known to wait it couldn't be easier [TS]

00:39:28 ◼   ► where do you go find out more let me get this right [TS]

00:39:32 ◼   ► casper dot com slash talk-show casper dot com slash talk show if you want to [TS]

00:39:39 ◼   ► get a mattress and talk about great holiday gift ideas buoyed by some money [TS]

00:39:42 ◼   ► matters is about as good as it gets but one under the Christmas tree use that [TS]

00:39:46 ◼   ► you are out and you will save 50 bucks off those prices I just told you about [TS]

00:39:51 ◼   ► your kids new mattresses for Christmas at Casper Dr so here is just the also [TS]

00:39:59 ◼   ► have people probably wondering how did craig Venter et end up on the talk show [TS]

00:40:02 ◼   ► and what happened was Apple got in touch with me when they started doing the I [TS]

00:40:11 ◼   ► guess it was a couple of days actually before with the open source and was [TS]

00:40:15 ◼   ► actually announced on Monday started reaching out to the press they asked [TS]

00:40:19 ◼   ► whether I'd be interested in having him on the podcast house yeah just let me [TS]

00:40:25 ◼   ► check my schedule I don't know who might be my ultimate beyond that we can I [TS]

00:40:29 ◼   ► can't bump him I was like oh yeah and so no real ground rules you know it was [TS]

00:40:37 ◼   ► very similar to 2010 shoulder was on the live show back at the BBC it wasn't a [TS]

00:40:41 ◼   ► date they wanted questions in advance or anything like that they're only request [TS]

00:40:46 ◼   ► was you know that it be limited to you know somewhere around twenty minutes or [TS]

00:40:50 ◼   ► so I think the fact that we went about 30 or 35 minutes probably acceptable in [TS]

00:40:57 ◼   ► their time limit [TS]

00:40:58 ◼   ► well I did I was absolutely watching the clock what we talked and I felt like [TS]

00:41:03 ◼   ► when we were rolling up around 20 it really felt like he was having a good [TS]

00:41:06 ◼   ► time he was very comfortable and I think that was definitely did you know apple [TS]

00:41:10 ◼   ► peels concern would be you know they want to limit his exposure in case it [TS]

00:41:14 ◼   ► was not comfortable which i think is reasonable [TS]

00:41:18 ◼   ► yeah I wonder if they would cut you off like nothing you wanna run that [TS]

00:41:22 ◼   ► experiment but they said you know we gotta wrap this up or more questions [TS]

00:41:28 ◼   ► probably cuz you know Bill Evans from was listening in and was there so I i [TS]

00:41:36 ◼   ► would suspect that if I went nuts and just kept him hanging you probably [TS]

00:41:39 ◼   ► woulda texted me or something like that like button friendly yeah just talking [TS]

00:41:46 ◼   ► about open sourcing swift and how bad again right to just talk about [TS]

00:41:49 ◼   ► programming a couple of nerds having a conversation [TS]

00:41:52 ◼   ► yea well I'll tell you I would love to hear your thoughts on the interview [TS]

00:41:56 ◼   ► because in this is really you know I'm telling you right now you were my just [TS]

00:42:00 ◼   ► the right term [TS]

00:42:01 ◼   ► my spirit animal going into the interview I thought okay twenty or [TS]

00:42:05 ◼   ► thirty minutes in my mind if if if I can make Syracuse a half happy with this [TS]

00:42:11 ◼   ► interview then I'll consider my job but that type of your stuff I think because [TS]

00:42:16 ◼   ► they've got Craig making the rounds to the tech press to talk about open source [TS]

00:42:21 ◼   ► with you know essentially what his job is doing that press tour to its to tell [TS]

00:42:28 ◼   ► everyone how great is that during this thing right [TS]

00:42:31 ◼   ► well i i would say to vote first to tell you about how great Swift is and then [TS]

00:42:36 ◼   ► second is how great it is that they're making it open source right but like his [TS]

00:42:42 ◼   ► job on that press tour is not to do what I think a lot of people might want out [TS]

00:42:45 ◼   ► of an interview whether it be podcast or text which is especially programmers and [TS]

00:42:52 ◼   ► especially the direction that you took your interview with Craig getting more [TS]

00:42:54 ◼   ► technical and everything is people want to have not in a mean way but in a sort [TS]

00:42:59 ◼   ► of using that old style way an argument about programming guy who is in charge [TS]

00:43:04 ◼   ► of a really big platform that a lot of people working for like this not like [TS]

00:43:09 ◼   ► him you want to debate whether I don't know what you wanna talk to the guy [TS]

00:43:14 ◼   ► who's in charge now finally I get to sort of you know complain about square [TS]

00:43:19 ◼   ► brackets are tabs vs spaces or my pet peeve in swift or the App Store whatever [TS]

00:43:25 ◼   ► you like [TS]

00:43:27 ◼   ► and I think that's more pronounced with Apple people because Apple has in the [TS]

00:43:31 ◼   ► past tended not to make the important decision makers especially important [TS]

00:43:36 ◼   ► technical people available to the public in anyway so there was no other venue [TS]

00:43:41 ◼   ► for you to you know where your grievances like you got to talk to the [TS]

00:43:46 ◼   ► people who were the most polished the highest level and if your concern was [TS]

00:43:49 ◼   ► about some minor feature of some framework created by and you couldn't [TS]

00:43:55 ◼   ► corner someone in a hallway W W C you there was no venue for that so i think i [TS]

00:43:59 ◼   ► mean that's changing now as as you discussed in the interview but a lot of [TS]

00:44:03 ◼   ► people might go into this thinking that they're gonna hear like they want to be [TS]

00:44:07 ◼   ► more adversarial but like it I think I think it's impossible to be adversarial [TS]

00:44:11 ◼   ► Craig nice person in the universe if he ever yelled at people in meetings you [TS]

00:44:15 ◼   ► would never know it from saying anything he doesn't like it seems just like a [TS]

00:44:20 ◼   ► super nice guy there's the attic and upbeat and positive all the time so [TS]

00:44:23 ◼   ► you're not going to have that with him and be that's not the purpose of the [TS]

00:44:26 ◼   ► press tour so it's a waste of time for you to do that you use that time much [TS]

00:44:30 ◼   ► more valuable to engage in interesting conversation that start topping I think [TS]

00:44:36 ◼   ► he did that is the same way I approach the interviews sure where it's very [TS]

00:44:39 ◼   ► difficult questions that in theory I would like to ask Mike if I could get [TS]

00:44:42 ◼   ► them on the stand under oath and make them answer questions there are very [TS]

00:44:47 ◼   ► interesting questions that I would like to ask that if I did ask and they [TS]

00:44:51 ◼   ► weren't under oath that I don't think they would answer and I don't want to [TS]

00:44:54 ◼   ► waste time on questions that they're not going to answer so for example I'm not [TS]

00:44:58 ◼   ► going to try to pick up his mind about you know whether they need a new kernel [TS]

00:45:05 ◼   ► a real-time operating system for the car to be a fruitful avenue conversation [TS]

00:45:11 ◼   ► exactly and in addition to the fact that he obviously isn't going to answer that [TS]

00:45:18 ◼   ► and we can talk about it and even if I wanted to get cute and say you know [TS]

00:45:23 ◼   ► theoretically of course you know but you know that there's real time [TS]

00:45:26 ◼   ► considerations for something like a car that you don't have with these consumer [TS]

00:45:29 ◼   ► devices like it is not going to get into it and the second thing in addition to [TS]

00:45:34 ◼   ► wasting precious time is I feel like asking questions like that would [TS]

00:45:38 ◼   ► immediately raise their shields like wow [TS]

00:45:40 ◼   ► stupid question that I can't answer now I've gotta be careful that I did you [TS]

00:45:44 ◼   ► know I want them to feel like hey this is going well and it's they're not [TS]

00:45:49 ◼   ► necessarily softball questions but that their questions that I this sort of [TS]

00:45:53 ◼   ► thing I was hoping to talk about the and the thing is in this in this particular [TS]

00:45:56 ◼   ► rounds with specifically in the open source effort we've seen through their [TS]

00:45:59 ◼   ► actions they are being much more open with swift and the open-source [TS]

00:46:04 ◼   ► everything they've ever been before in terms of telling you what they're going [TS]

00:46:07 ◼   ► to do in the future and having public road maps and during development in the [TS]

00:46:10 ◼   ► open you kind of brothers up an individual like how this development is [TS]

00:46:15 ◼   ► out in the open and he and Craig's I'll almost everything but the contrast that [TS]

00:46:19 ◼   ► you could have you know maybe this would have been put on a defense contractor [TS]

00:46:22 ◼   ► something like the the Darwin open source release has been open source in [TS]

00:46:27 ◼   ► the beginning but it just hasn't been developed in the same way and maybe it [TS]

00:46:29 ◼   ► can't be for a variety of reasons because this is too much [TS]

00:46:32 ◼   ► proprietary stuff revealing their plans for you know whatever devices and stuff [TS]

00:46:37 ◼   ► they're they're gonna make in the future but they they're so much more open and [TS]

00:46:42 ◼   ► he was moribund here saying oh yeah we're going to have these features in [TS]

00:46:45 ◼   ► this is you know we're gonna have more things like this but I'm WBC rolls [TS]

00:46:49 ◼   ► around when his any Apple that they would you tell you they're going to have [TS]

00:46:53 ◼   ► a new battery charger to tell you anything about the future that he was [TS]

00:46:58 ◼   ► promising specific things but sort of in the vague sort of this is kind of what [TS]

00:47:02 ◼   ► we're thinking kind of what we're planning because I think it's understood [TS]

00:47:05 ◼   ► especially within the realm of these elements are things you can see it [TS]

00:47:08 ◼   ► happening like if it did not available a mystery why you'll see everything will [TS]

00:47:12 ◼   ► check in every single debate on the mailing list and WC comes around only be [TS]

00:47:16 ◼   ► ready here it won't and when everyone can see it that no one's gonna be like [TS]

00:47:20 ◼   ► you promised this thing by WC and we still can do it why you didn't get done [TS]

00:47:28 ◼   ► or there was debate about how it should be done or whatever it's having that [TS]

00:47:33 ◼   ► stuff in the open just makes it so much easier to have those conversations that [TS]

00:47:36 ◼   ► there are no gods is like just you can watch it happening it's not magic right [TS]

00:47:40 ◼   ► it's not like okay it's early December as promised before the end of the year [TS]

00:47:46 ◼   ► we've made this thing open source here is the zip file you know with all the [TS]

00:47:49 ◼   ► source and there's [TS]

00:47:51 ◼   ► a patchy or whatever and whenever they're using its got an open source [TS]

00:47:58 ◼   ► license to have at it and here's where we plan to here's our roadmap for the [TS]

00:48:02 ◼   ► first with 3.0 and then they go into radio silence and in early June WABC we [TS]

00:48:08 ◼   ► find out whether that matter not like you said from the point from here to [TS]

00:48:12 ◼   ► there every single day there are going to be these debate coming to me that I [TS]

00:48:16 ◼   ► mentioned in the interview that the swift evolution mailing list is [TS]

00:48:20 ◼   ► remarkable because you really have to look at the email addresses to see who's [TS]

00:48:24 ◼   ► from Apple and who's not because there's really serious and very thoughtful [TS]

00:48:28 ◼   ► proposals coming from outside Apple and it's very clear that people inside Apple [TS]

00:48:33 ◼   ► are giving them their full consideration it is truly collaborative relationship [TS]

00:48:40 ◼   ► right you know eight days into it [TS]

00:48:42 ◼   ► yeah definitely I'm doing it will calm down a little bit of InAs been [TS]

00:48:46 ◼   ► tremendous I had to switch to digest format that it was just telling my email [TS]

00:48:52 ◼   ► and biting into a folder was just too many mail today so I just tried taking [TS]

00:48:56 ◼   ► the digest version of the traffic will die down a little bit but I used to the [TS]

00:49:01 ◼   ► old model with the open source like Darwin was that was the big give you a [TS]

00:49:05 ◼   ► big dump and then I don't know how many people even contributed or even could [TS]

00:49:08 ◼   ► contribute and then you wouldn't you wouldn't see anything from them until [TS]

00:49:13 ◼   ► the next major version like I think just the other day they finally put out the [TS]

00:49:16 ◼   ► Capitan version of the door and open source stuff and so if they come with us [TS]

00:49:20 ◼   ► big storms dumped even if they had been accepting like feedback if you didn't [TS]

00:49:25 ◼   ► see anything from Apple and till WWDC it would just be like like typical right [TS]

00:49:29 ◼   ► only sort of black hole for information like that have discussions with you [TS]

00:49:33 ◼   ► could say things but you never knew I was going to do you have to sit around [TS]

00:49:35 ◼   ► and wait and wait and wait and then doing a bunch of slides and people would [TS]

00:49:39 ◼   ► applaud your not here and it all happens in real time and money I guess the open [TS]

00:49:44 ◼   ► question is still how often do the people at Apple pushed it changes back [TS]

00:49:49 ◼   ► up to the repository how much development that's true of any open [TS]

00:49:52 ◼   ► source thing you can [TS]

00:49:52 ◼   ► you can have your hero local clone of repository do a bunch of changes to it [TS]

00:49:57 ◼   ► and not push them back up to the main repository for a while to some degree [TS]

00:50:02 ◼   ► there has to be development going on an Apple that doesn't immediately get [TS]

00:50:07 ◼   ► pushed out to the public I mean I know if there's a vetting process involved in [TS]

00:50:11 ◼   ► that or just the internal coordination of deciding in their particular what [TS]

00:50:16 ◼   ► they're going to do versus what the community's doing I'm sure they'll never [TS]

00:50:20 ◼   ► get it just fine but it is just like any other open source thing if there does [TS]

00:50:24 ◼   ► come a point where the community wants the post about everything in one [TS]

00:50:28 ◼   ► direction now belongs to put another you can another 24 crore so far from that [TS]

00:50:31 ◼   ► now now everyone has come by on everyone's excited to be working on [TS]

00:50:35 ◼   ► Swift's new Swift is this one thing and apples could be the driver seat having [TS]

00:50:38 ◼   ► invented in having the platform where it's most useful so I think things will [TS]

00:50:42 ◼   ► be smooth sailing as soon as they can be an open source for the foreseeable [TS]

00:50:46 ◼   ► future [TS]

00:50:46 ◼   ► yeah and I think it must help in a certain degree that just about every [TS]

00:50:55 ◼   ► programming language I know of and certainly all the ones people are [TS]

00:50:58 ◼   ► passionate about have somebody who you know was the dictator in charge who [TS]

00:51:04 ◼   ► invented it [TS]

00:51:04 ◼   ► and infused it with their personal you know here's what I think this [TS]

00:51:09 ◼   ► programming language you know all the great programming languages to me i i [TS]

00:51:13 ◼   ► think thats opinionated or origin and Chris Lattner is obviously that [TS]

00:51:20 ◼   ► individual swift and I think it's very clear both publicly and from what I've [TS]

00:51:26 ◼   ► heard privately that it was what has happened was always his intention that [TS]

00:51:30 ◼   ► it would go open source and that it wouldn't you know and it's not like it [TS]

00:51:33 ◼   ► took this long because there was a debate internally it really was what [TS]

00:51:36 ◼   ► what Craig said in the interview which was didn't make sense to go open source [TS]

00:51:40 ◼   ► right out of the bat we had to make you know it's still too liquid you know wait [TS]

00:51:43 ◼   ► till it solidifies a little bit and then at that point you know it's not a matter [TS]

00:51:47 ◼   ► of if but when I think was his exact words and I think it really helps it [TS]

00:51:51 ◼   ► latter was on board with that from the beginning in terms of wanting to have [TS]

00:51:55 ◼   ► this sort of [TS]

00:51:56 ◼   ► it's not like it's not like somebody else at Apple is forcing him and his [TS]

00:52:00 ◼   ► team to participate as well that's the unspoken part of that is like alright so [TS]

00:52:06 ◼   ► it didn't make sense to go because I was too knew why would it be bad obviously [TS]

00:52:11 ◼   ► pre one point I was like you have a secret I'm keeping the secret so I can [TS]

00:52:16 ◼   ► come to WBC is a revenue permalink free 1.0 pre-announcement you can say that's [TS]

00:52:22 ◼   ► the reason it was a secret and we don't even know if we could do it and we had [TS]

00:52:25 ◼   ► to decide internally and so that makes it once everybody knows what does that [TS]

00:52:29 ◼   ► then why is an open source at that point I was new [TS]

00:52:33 ◼   ► not ready willing to work out why why do you need to work it out why can't you [TS]

00:52:36 ◼   ► work it out when it's in the open why does it have to be closed source while [TS]

00:52:40 ◼   ► you're working these things out and I would say that's right now is still by [TS]

00:52:43 ◼   ► the standards of most other major foreign language still heavily influx of [TS]

00:52:46 ◼   ► inferred that they're they're ripping out plus + and minus minus at this point [TS]

00:52:50 ◼   ► thinking about what they're going to do with like you know people proposing new [TS]

00:52:54 ◼   ► keywords like this is a clear liquid so why are they closed source between the [TS]

00:53:00 ◼   ► announcement and now and the answers that are pretty obvious like they don't [TS]

00:53:04 ◼   ► think they need to say that he's always going to supporting an open source [TS]

00:53:07 ◼   ► project has overhead like it you can work you can go much faster when you [TS]

00:53:11 ◼   ► don't worry about other people's input that sounds bad and it's like oh you're [TS]

00:53:14 ◼   ► being there is a lot of overhead especially for companies like Apple in [TS]

00:53:19 ◼   ► terms of intellectual property and making sure this time do what they open [TS]

00:53:23 ◼   ► and what's not [TS]

00:53:24 ◼   ► it's a lot of work to do all the things that are required to be a good [TS]

00:53:29 ◼   ► maintainer of an open source project and they just you know it would have made [TS]

00:53:33 ◼   ► them go slower right so now they're at the point where the tradeoff is worth it [TS]

00:53:39 ◼   ► so they're they're OK with going a little bit slower now across the input [TS]

00:53:43 ◼   ► is a little more valuable because in the beginning part so much basic stuff then [TS]

00:53:47 ◼   ► work and then having a compilation of us like you just you just want to hold [TS]

00:53:52 ◼   ► together is a species of what all can we ship something can we get it working on [TS]

00:53:57 ◼   ► exco's like the playground crash all the time that's that's basically I would [TS]

00:54:04 ◼   ► assume the answer that wasn't given their [TS]

00:54:06 ◼   ► at the gate and during the entire but they were not going to tell you about [TS]

00:54:10 ◼   ► the details of the internal debate but you can go much faster when you don't [TS]

00:54:15 ◼   ► have to worry about the outside world's opinions or input and you don't have to [TS]

00:54:18 ◼   ► support them and you have to maintain you know source repository with clean [TS]

00:54:23 ◼   ► source code and mailing list and all the other things that go with that I think [TS]

00:54:27 ◼   ► it's sort of a like a two-step process first step was with one point out this [TS]

00:54:37 ◼   ► is good enough to show you guys and let you guys start playing even know let's [TS]

00:54:42 ◼   ► face it you can start working with it will get it into a shape where it's you [TS]

00:54:46 ◼   ► know you can start using it and I i've been asking around and I do there are [TS]

00:54:50 ◼   ► you know it's not just an apple there you know real developers it real you [TS]

00:54:53 ◼   ► know absolutely no people out there you know top apps to borrow a phrase from [TS]

00:54:59 ◼   ► raiders of the Lost Ark there are top apps that have new parts of it you know [TS]

00:55:03 ◼   ► maybe not entirely written so that's probably still very rare but new [TS]

00:55:07 ◼   ► features are being written swept in relapse you know that you're using today [TS]

00:55:11 ◼   ► but I think stage two is this is where I think ladder and his team thing we had [TS]

00:55:17 ◼   ► this vision for where we would start with and we're not there yet and this is [TS]

00:55:22 ◼   ► the point where there's this the fundamental aspects of the language but [TS]

00:55:25 ◼   ► we're settled on now and now we're willing to start listening to how we can [TS]

00:55:29 ◼   ► make it better to suit your needs [TS]

00:55:30 ◼   ► yeah but I think the language is just so young friend in the grand scheme of [TS]

00:55:38 ◼   ► things it you know I want you like human analogy I can maybe consider up now [TS]

00:55:45 ◼   ► like it's not you don't need to be held in one of those big tube things they can [TS]

00:55:50 ◼   ► sit up case falls over a little bit can set up but this is like the best and the [TS]

00:55:57 ◼   ► worst part because it's kind of like this so much potential but Craig talked [TS]

00:56:04 ◼   ► about so 3.0 now they're really working on getting the Abia nale down [TS]

00:56:08 ◼   ► and everything and that's just got to be terrified because you know the standards [TS]

00:56:12 ◼   ► of binary compatibility that Apple aspires to like with Objective C I think [TS]

00:56:16 ◼   ► market has brought this up an appt at times like you could have built and I [TS]

00:56:19 ◼   ► thought out for the original iPhone and and and theory if you stayed to you know [TS]

00:56:25 ◼   ► still well supported API's the buyer was still run like they don't Apple is not [TS]

00:56:30 ◼   ► in the habit of breaking backward compatibility for binary libraries and [TS]

00:56:35 ◼   ► everything that frequently which is surprising for a company that is so gung [TS]

00:56:38 ◼   ► ho about moving on from the past and harbor designing software design they [TS]

00:56:43 ◼   ► really good about that stuff down like that i three point is not that far away [TS]

00:56:47 ◼   ► and it's like you really get one shot at doing this right because it's not going [TS]

00:56:52 ◼   ► to be another 64 2 30 32 or 64 bit transition for them to use to paper over [TS]

00:56:56 ◼   ► like they did with like you know the objective see stuff like well we're [TS]

00:57:00 ◼   ► gonna 3264 gonna break anyway so now's our chance to do something a little bit [TS]

00:57:04 ◼   ► differently is not going to be a 64 to 128 transition in the foreseeable future [TS]

00:57:07 ◼   ► so they really have to get their ABI something that doesn't have some [TS]

00:57:12 ◼   ► terrible mistake that ties the hands in the future and that is supportable 44 [TS]

00:57:17 ◼   ► literally decades maybe not it's not a mistake it's like not like missing some [TS]

00:57:23 ◼   ► sort of thing that everybody thinks it's ok today but five six seven years ago [TS]

00:57:27 ◼   ► from now everybody thinks oh man that would be so great if we didn't have that [TS]

00:57:31 ◼   ► we weren't stuck with that decision or they're going to be some language [TS]

00:57:34 ◼   ► features that is much more difficult to support with the ABI has designed are [TS]

00:57:39 ◼   ► you know the way quantum computers work and fifty years is different than a but [TS]

00:57:44 ◼   ► even just like there's a particular language feature that they like we don't [TS]

00:57:47 ◼   ► have time to become currency is a great example this with 3.00 like what [TS]

00:57:51 ◼   ► evolution mailing list and and roadmap or whatever they like language Java [TS]

00:57:55 ◼   ► concurrency would not plant for 31 2010 have time for just two big feature we're [TS]

00:58:00 ◼   ► gonna say that as those 3.0 but they're gonna have the ABI nail down so I really [TS]

00:58:04 ◼   ► hope there's nothing about you know language level concurrency Peters [TS]

00:58:08 ◼   ► that would be easier to do with a different API not preclude them doing [TS]

00:58:13 ◼   ► this and I'm assuming like based on past experience that they're looking for an [TS]

00:58:18 ◼   ► ABI that we really really solid but that's far everything until now has been [TS]

00:58:21 ◼   ► a communication from from Apple that sarcasm we're gonna break your crap all [TS]

00:58:25 ◼   ► the time we are not maintained source compatibility where we're adding [TS]

00:58:30 ◼   ► keywords removing things we're we're changing Harper is working and and their [TS]

00:58:34 ◼   ► solution to this has been like we're going to use Xcode translate your old [TS]

00:58:37 ◼   ► code you could hear you but we're not going to support your old code like just [TS]

00:58:41 ◼   ► forget it because there today don't want to be held back by the passes kind of [TS]

00:58:44 ◼   ► the nightmare of you know come out with language and then let literally [TS]

00:58:50 ◼   ► thousands of developers start writing real applications with it and shipping [TS]

00:58:53 ◼   ► them to customers and then be like oh my god we can never change this part of the [TS]

00:58:57 ◼   ► language because so many people have always come out there like we just need [TS]

00:59:00 ◼   ► to be set out to loosen the world now we can never take away plus plus a little [TS]

00:59:05 ◼   ► break everyone's out samples we know we reserve the right to change this [TS]

00:59:09 ◼   ► how does mine which looks on the page to make your source code that you think is [TS]

00:59:13 ◼   ► perfectly good syntactically invalid so it won't even compile and they were [TS]

00:59:16 ◼   ► gonna manage that is by giving you tools to translate your source code that's one [TS]

00:59:20 ◼   ► of my favorite changes in the I guess it's the it just came out in this with [TS]

00:59:25 ◼   ► evolution or maybe the new version is with the day released as they open [TS]

00:59:29 ◼   ► source to where they got rid of these plus + and minus minus operators and [TS]

00:59:33 ◼   ► again just to take a big step back and I read the interviews that Federici did [TS]

00:59:37 ◼   ► with like Mashable and other outlets last week I was happy and have worried [TS]

00:59:43 ◼   ► cuz I was happy because his interviews with like Ars Technica and and Mashable [TS]

00:59:48 ◼   ► covered the basics like a foundation of what Apple's official stance was towards [TS]

00:59:53 ◼   ► this open throwing a swift and I thought that means I don't have to waste time [TS]

00:59:56 ◼   ► talking about those things with them and we can go deeper but then I thought what [TS]

01:00:00 ◼   ► if that's all he wants to talk about is this he doesn't wanna get nerdy at all [TS]

01:00:03 ◼   ► and I was like I kinda want some of the stuff to be a little technical but then [TS]

01:00:07 ◼   ► the way the interview went absolutely no problem getting him to go technical I [TS]

01:00:12 ◼   ► just worried now that it may be a little bit over [TS]

01:00:15 ◼   ► over people's heads for everybody listens to the show and so just as one [TS]

01:00:20 ◼   ► example on over explained that the plus + minus minus operators are one it very [TS]

01:00:24 ◼   ► easy for even an unprogrammed understand and in every language Jesus I know if [TS]

01:00:29 ◼   ► since you've been able to take a variable it's a the variables accident X [TS]

01:00:34 ◼   ► is an integer and it's currently equal to four if you write your source code X [TS]

01:00:39 ◼   ► plus plus that turns the variable 25 just add one to the to the variable and [TS]

01:00:47 ◼   ► I never really given a lot of thought to it but I get seems like every language [TS]

01:00:51 ◼   ► just about every see style syntax language sense has taken out and kept it [TS]

01:00:57 ◼   ► and swift had it and then we're going I was like we're going to get rid of it [TS]

01:01:03 ◼   ► and here's why and I thought the explanation for why was terrifically [TS]

01:01:06 ◼   ► Cochin you know as I get that sort of like unreadable and you can be a lot [TS]

01:01:12 ◼   ► easier to just you know exit + equals one you know it's 120 there's the the [TS]

01:01:19 ◼   ► nuances of post post a comment and protect plus plus tax versus X plus [TS]

01:01:24 ◼   ► costs which means different things in different languages including C Python [TS]

01:01:28 ◼   ► by the way doesn't have minus minus and this is a great example of a language [TS]

01:01:33 ◼   ► feature that they're changing based on a proposal for essentially cultural [TS]

01:01:38 ◼   ► reasons cultural and human factors reasons not not technical not like [TS]

01:01:44 ◼   ► performance or interoperability with Objective C you're the best but for the [TS]

01:01:48 ◼   ► ability to do something that you previously couldn't do this is purely [TS]

01:01:52 ◼   ► its user interface for programming would essentially it does this contract cause [TS]

01:01:59 ◼   ► more problems than it solves how much longer is plus two equals 1 vs plus + [TS]

01:02:04 ◼   ► pre and post really get rid of that because that is very confusing but [TS]

01:02:08 ◼   ► you're like well you know so common as you noted in so many other languages but [TS]

01:02:16 ◼   ► we keep that just because it's an idiom that people are familiar with and then [TS]

01:02:19 ◼   ► the debate if you can look through this [TS]

01:02:20 ◼   ► was like well in what context do you find yourself wanting to do that well [TS]

01:02:24 ◼   ► when I do a for loop and I say you know I 0 I less than whatever I plus + and [TS]

01:02:29 ◼   ► then the Swiss dancers we don't want people doing this kind of want to have a [TS]

01:02:33 ◼   ► way to iterate over collections more naturally so if we say you don't have to [TS]

01:02:37 ◼   ► do a classic style for loop when do you think you can use the plus + you know [TS]

01:02:43 ◼   ► and so that's a debate goes and this is the level they're talking about that's [TS]

01:02:46 ◼   ► why services at all the little baby they can barely sit up at this point because [TS]

01:02:49 ◼   ► they're still considering fundamental things like anything or should this baby [TS]

01:02:53 ◼   ► house right and you know it's gonna be a biped should have fuhrman not like [TS]

01:02:57 ◼   ► that's nothing level they're they're debating this point I think it's [TS]

01:03:02 ◼   ► wonderful because the worst thing in the world that can happen is the very early [TS]

01:03:06 ◼   ► decisions made by a very small group of people not exposed to the wider world to [TS]

01:03:10 ◼   ► become cemented and become unchangeable and to say this is it and we can't [TS]

01:03:15 ◼   ► change just because it's too late because too many people are programming [TS]

01:03:17 ◼   ► unless you get everything perfect on your first try but you never ever will [TS]

01:03:21 ◼   ► all you're doing is like baking in the war you know nice for the language to [TS]

01:03:26 ◼   ► have time to grow and change and make mistakes and learn from them then become [TS]

01:03:30 ◼   ► a different language eventually than it was this year last year to take another [TS]

01:03:37 ◼   ► step back to see glossary as we go for non-programmers the ABI the binary Apple [TS]

01:03:46 ◼   ► is that what are they behaving stamp application binary right [TS]

01:03:50 ◼   ► that is effectively so source code is in a text file you write your swift in a [TS]

01:03:57 ◼   ► text file it goes into the compiler and the compiler turns it into the binary [TS]

01:04:02 ◼   ► output so the doc appt the the little actual executable inside the data bundle [TS]

01:04:07 ◼   ► that's the binary or if it's a framework or library it's the compiled code that [TS]

01:04:11 ◼   ► the machine read natively and what they're promising is that Swift 3.0 [TS]

01:04:15 ◼   ► which is scheduled for I think they say late 2016 which I sort of interpret I [TS]

01:04:20 ◼   ► read between the lines Mac OS 10 ten-point 12 probably and I S 10 that [TS]

01:04:32 ◼   ► it's good you know at that from that point forward that binary interface is [TS]

01:04:35 ◼   ► going to be compatible with future version 456 going forward and they're [TS]

01:04:40 ◼   ► like you said that you know high-stakes to commit that yeah and it is most [TS]

01:04:47 ◼   ► important for someone like Apple makes a bunch of libraries they should put their [TS]

01:04:50 ◼   ► machines in your binaries know how to call into those libraries how to how to [TS]

01:04:54 ◼   ► call the function defined functions and how to call them how to present the [TS]

01:04:58 ◼   ► arguments of those functions expect where they get the return value from all [TS]

01:05:02 ◼   ► those little details that are right now have been in flux and they have to mail [TS]

01:05:07 ◼   ► them down so that your ship your binary they'll ship their libraries and then [TS]

01:05:11 ◼   ► they'll come over the new version of the OS and if you don't revise your [TS]

01:05:14 ◼   ► application you want to still work you don't have to recompile it every time [TS]

01:05:17 ◼   ► that you know that's what they changed the FBI would mean that people have to [TS]

01:05:20 ◼   ► recompile their stuff and historically speaking out on that on iOS and is [TS]

01:05:24 ◼   ► rarely done and I was 10 and 32 64 bit transitions are great time to require [TS]

01:05:29 ◼   ► that because you're like well your application will keep working but [TS]

01:05:32 ◼   ► eventually we're not even going to support you know thirty two-bit max [TS]

01:05:36 ◼   ► anymore so we're just gonna be 64 bit from now on in your application will [TS]

01:05:40 ◼   ► stage a digo system if you don't updated if you updated hey guess what you got to [TS]

01:05:43 ◼   ► recompile anyway no big deal [TS]

01:05:45 ◼   ► what was the gist of what he was talking about there were some about what why [TS]

01:05:50 ◼   ► when I was asking where they're using swift internally and one of the things [TS]

01:05:53 ◼   ► that they were they holding them up and kiddie kampus which the swift [TS]

01:05:57 ◼   ► is that they need to support 32 bit on Mac OS 10 yeah I couldn't tell whether [TS]

01:06:04 ◼   ► that was just a sly allusion to the fact that 32 bit support is going away [TS]

01:06:09 ◼   ► everywhere that it hasn't you know any any remaining holdouts 32 bit support [TS]

01:06:14 ◼   ► will be disappearing and they've been doing it over the years just going 64 [TS]

01:06:17 ◼   ► bit everywhere they possibly can adjust when they can stop supporting entirely [TS]

01:06:21 ◼   ► the other option is to work with a 32 bit things right right now Swift is 64 [TS]

01:06:26 ◼   ► bit only as far as I know yeah and there's no reason they couldn't make it [TS]

01:06:32 ◼   ► work with 32 bit like you know where they could but is it worth it so it's [TS]

01:06:36 ◼   ► just a question of I just shutting that door and when is it safe for them to [TS]

01:06:41 ◼   ► shut that door [TS]

01:06:42 ◼   ► you know in terms of backward compatibility when I called you know the [TS]

01:06:45 ◼   ► iOS devices going 64 bit you can still run 32 bit out there but you don't want [TS]

01:06:49 ◼   ► to have both 32 bit and 64 bit apps running on your device at the same time [TS]

01:06:52 ◼   ► he's got a lot two versions all libraries into memory and everything's [TS]

01:06:55 ◼   ► there are lots of good reasons to just forget about 32 and I guess I just let [TS]

01:06:59 ◼   ► it age out of the ecosystem that's what I would imagine Apple would do but he's [TS]

01:07:04 ◼   ► talking about the past in terms of what role as holding people back [TS]

01:07:07 ◼   ► here's where it would really help if we had a chat room but the question is just [TS]

01:07:12 ◼   ► popped into my head now and therefore did not do any research before the show [TS]

01:07:15 ◼   ► is i am guessing this is true I'm getting watch OS is 64 bit only and TV [TS]

01:07:21 ◼   ► OS almost certainly is 64 bit only there's absolutely no reason why the TV [TS]

01:07:26 ◼   ► OS would have 32 bit sport since the first device that TV OS runs on is it [TS]

01:07:30 ◼   ► 64 bit device so on TV OS and I'm guessing watch OS it's probably possible [TS]

01:07:36 ◼   ► to go [TS]

01:07:37 ◼   ► swift frameworks and libraries in the operating system and even know it was [TS]

01:07:45 ◼   ► good to have a fair amount even know how to use a a and the first department was [TS]

01:07:52 ◼   ► a seven [TS]

01:07:55 ◼   ► yeah I like I said I would imagine the way forward is the problem not to waste [TS]

01:08:00 ◼   ► his time on 32 bit but who knows like it depends on which road map I can you grab [TS]

01:08:05 ◼   ► those things out and say when can we finally got dropped 32 bit support both [TS]

01:08:08 ◼   ► practically speaking in like politically speaking not knowing our partners or [TS]

01:08:12 ◼   ► whatever you may like 32 games right with someone like rebuilding 464 when [TS]

01:08:17 ◼   ► can we do that when is it safe and the question is when do we want to really [TS]

01:08:21 ◼   ► start ramping up the ramp up to 432 because away may be able to put in the [TS]

01:08:27 ◼   ► work to do 30 bit more but it only seems like the Apple move to just be like so [TS]

01:08:32 ◼   ► it is going to hasten the demise of anything [TS]

01:08:34 ◼   ► supporting 64 bit just seems to me that anything new from Mike at least from [TS]

01:08:41 ◼   ► when they 750 shipped from that point forward it just seems like anything that [TS]

01:08:46 ◼   ► doesn't have legacy support is 64 bit only so you know from both from new [TS]

01:08:51 ◼   ► platform perspective like watchin TV too swift itself that you know if it's a new [TS]

01:08:56 ◼   ► language that came out in 2014 [TS]

01:09:01 ◼   ► why in the world would it have 32 bit supported you know anchored to the past [TS]

01:09:06 ◼   ► yeah same thing for new frameworks of their writing new frameworks using so [TS]

01:09:09 ◼   ► asked with only free markets with native framework so that they're rerunning [TS]

01:09:13 ◼   ► foundation and swift you know like rubber for new stuff where there is no [TS]

01:09:16 ◼   ► there is no nonce with version of this library with them they wanted a brand [TS]

01:09:21 ◼   ► new library maybe it's a big new library that's going to be a tentpole feature of [TS]

01:09:25 ◼   ► a future wEDC and tell people how to use it [TS]

01:09:27 ◼   ► if it's with only and so it doesn't 2:30 to 4:30 bit no 32 bit apps can use this [TS]

01:09:34 ◼   ► thing unless they're gonna bend over backwards to do some crazy way for the [TS]

01:09:39 ◼   ► you know the libraries to bridge from 32 to 64 bit yes I just think it's all 64 [TS]

01:09:44 ◼   ► going forward and and what he was giving you a glimpse into things that happened [TS]

01:09:48 ◼   ► already gone through like why are devising everybody else was really young [TS]

01:09:52 ◼   ► so it doesn't support 32 bit there are reasons that teens inside Apple may be [TS]

01:09:56 ◼   ► interested in swift could use it cuz it just wasn't practically doesn't was [TS]

01:10:00 ◼   ► impractical that point but it becomes more practical everyday I really I [TS]

01:10:04 ◼   ► thought one of the most astute things he said was my transcript here i mean [TS]

01:10:09 ◼   ► people here are idealistic [TS]

01:10:12 ◼   ► really pragmatic and I think you see that as an apple characteristic in many [TS]

01:10:16 ◼   ► many many elements of what we do and I really do think that I think that that's [TS]

01:10:20 ◼   ► almost [TS]

01:10:22 ◼   ► idealistic yet really pragmatic gets to the heart of what I like best about [TS]

01:10:28 ◼   ► Apple you know in the long run and overall and I feel and I feel like that [TS]

01:10:34 ◼   ► really exemplifies it in terms of sure we're really excited about swift and be [TS]

01:10:38 ◼   ► fun to be writing more but we've gotta write an awful lot of new stuff still in [TS]

01:10:41 ◼   ► Objective C for these very very pragmatic reasons [TS]

01:10:45 ◼   ► yeah this is the overarching like you may be excited about swift but there's [TS]

01:10:49 ◼   ► sort of a company cultural imperative to for example not break binary [TS]

01:10:55 ◼   ► compatibility without a good reason because it's bad for the platform and it [TS]

01:11:01 ◼   ► is any possible way you can avoid it like it's it's bad for the ecosystem [TS]

01:11:05 ◼   ► that makes developers angry and just get a certain number of those and you don't [TS]

01:11:11 ◼   ► want to like it cash I'm just gonna win right so even though people may be very [TS]

01:11:16 ◼   ► excited about using this new technology if there is an overriding concern you no [TS]

01:11:21 ◼   ► larger than your little project larger than your little feature your [TS]

01:11:24 ◼   ► application or whatever it is you're doing inside Apple and the dictators you [TS]

01:11:28 ◼   ► can't use it because you need is for 32 bit or 32 bit because we're committed to [TS]

01:11:33 ◼   ► operating biocompatibility until [TS]

01:11:36 ◼   ► big company-wide decision happens at a level way above your pay grade and only [TS]

01:11:40 ◼   ► then the idealistic and pragmatic as an organization yes but like within the [TS]

01:11:45 ◼   ► organization I imagine is distributed where are you go down in the org chart [TS]

01:11:49 ◼   ► the more people are inclined to be idealistic amounted to something crazy [TS]

01:11:51 ◼   ► in new and how are you going there are two more people have to be pragmatic and [TS]

01:11:55 ◼   ► there's a bigger picture here and even though you may be excited to use it on [TS]

01:11:57 ◼   ► your little project we decided to tap when it's time to do these big moves [TS]

01:12:02 ◼   ► that are gonna impact again literally thousands of developers and thousands to [TS]

01:12:07 ◼   ► millions of that money money think about it I don't even know anything about a [TS]

01:12:12 ◼   ► possible one of the areas I wanted to get in when I found out it was nice one [TS]

01:12:18 ◼   ► of the things it was nice about this interview was that I knew about it at [TS]

01:12:23 ◼   ► least a week in advance is actually a little bit more than a week in advance [TS]

01:12:25 ◼   ► by the time you know we found a date that works for both of us and so I felt [TS]

01:12:31 ◼   ► like I had plenty of time to prepare which is great and so one of the ways [TS]

01:12:35 ◼   ► that I prepared I went to people who know a lot about programming than I do [TS]

01:12:40 ◼   ► and it specifically a lot more about programming for Apple platforms that I [TS]

01:12:43 ◼   ► do and you know trying to get some questions and one of the things I asked [TS]

01:12:48 ◼   ► about but you know that and I knew this but I was interesting hearing it from [TS]

01:12:52 ◼   ► developer friends is this whole angled that Swift is not just Objective C with [TS]

01:12:58 ◼   ► a modern friendly syntax it is a very different language with very different [TS]

01:13:02 ◼   ► primary priorities and there are certainly some things it certainly looks [TS]

01:13:11 ◼   ► better and it certainly is a much more approachable syntax and I feel like at a [TS]

01:13:15 ◼   ► fundamental level that's basically why there's so much excitement around Swift [TS]

01:13:18 ◼   ► is there's a lot of people who do just took one look at or take one look at [TS]

01:13:24 ◼   ► Objective C and they're like I don't get it and then they take a look at swift [TS]

01:13:27 ◼   ► and are like wow that looks like the language I already know whether it's [TS]

01:13:30 ◼   ► Javascript or you know C or [TS]

01:13:34 ◼   ► I don't know even even Java to some degree maybe you know it's a lot more [TS]

01:13:38 ◼   ► similar to those style languages that is subject to see but there are things [TS]

01:13:43 ◼   ► about Objective C and the way that the next now cocoa and Cocoa Touch remarks [TS]

01:13:50 ◼   ► you know all these things that drive from from the next origins the way these [TS]

01:13:54 ◼   ► frameworks take advantage of the dynamic aspects of objective see that people who [TS]

01:13:58 ◼   ► are really good at it people who've been writing for these frameworks for a long [TS]

01:14:02 ◼   ► time love and swift sort of isn't really what they were looking for [TS]

01:14:07 ◼   ► next-generation language and I thought his answer that surprised me I mean it [TS]

01:14:14 ◼   ► was it was a message in terms of like dynamic things that people want to do [TS]

01:14:20 ◼   ► with Objective C will eventually be possible that they're not now and if [TS]

01:14:23 ◼   ► this is an ongoing thing and they're working on an idea and essentially all [TS]

01:14:27 ◼   ► the dynamism which is where the light is on the dynamism that that that Apple [TS]

01:14:31 ◼   ► thinks is important will be available in swift without the downside that he also [TS]

01:14:35 ◼   ► won over extensive gotta pay for that all the time [TS]

01:14:37 ◼   ► yeah I thought that was interesting and I thought it was I'm not sure I guess I [TS]

01:14:43 ◼   ► kind of was worried that he would . question instead it seemed like he drove [TS]

01:14:47 ◼   ► right into it and it's obvious so obvious from his answer that they have [TS]

01:14:51 ◼   ► discussed this internally extensively well this is an interesting time for [TS]

01:14:56 ◼   ► swift because a lot of things that have been said troops with from the beginning [TS]

01:15:00 ◼   ► are now starting to come become come more into the public consciousness [TS]

01:15:04 ◼   ► mostly because more people are using it more people are aware that it even [TS]

01:15:07 ◼   ► exists as excited as we all wear whatever was two years ago to see swift [TS]

01:15:10 ◼   ► at WWDC it's not really thing for people [TS]

01:15:16 ◼   ► broadly speaking until you know a certain point like can actually use us [TS]

01:15:20 ◼   ► tonight I wasn't mad cops ok then it becomes one little thing in the open [TS]

01:15:23 ◼   ► source is the next level like hey this is maybe a menace to the entire world of [TS]

01:15:28 ◼   ► programmers right and so now a lot of people are looking at swift and they're [TS]

01:15:32 ◼   ► going to I think I started realizing things that have been true but from the [TS]

01:15:36 ◼   ► very beginning you mentioned the syntax thing which is kind of a sideshow [TS]

01:15:39 ◼   ► because the sin taxes you know even those things people notice when you look [TS]

01:15:44 ◼   ► at it [TS]

01:15:45 ◼   ► and there is a certain I don't like a flavor as you can tell I feel like a [TS]

01:15:52 ◼   ► modern thinkers this year old in the weirdest does it look like you mentioned [TS]

01:15:55 ◼   ► it doesn't look like JavaScript as a look like whatever language the kids are [TS]

01:15:58 ◼   ► learning these days right but that is mostly not important [TS]

01:16:03 ◼   ► some aspect would be hard to keep up with the Joneses and not look like a [TS]

01:16:06 ◼   ► really old but then the other aspect of it in terms of the language itself is [TS]

01:16:11 ◼   ► how many things to have to worry about an Objective C asks developers to worry [TS]

01:16:15 ◼   ► about things used to be for arc ask them to to worry about memory manager what [TS]

01:16:19 ◼   ► they had to call retaining release and to a modern young programmer that just [TS]

01:16:24 ◼   ► seems barbaric because I guess it would be coming from you know I guess [TS]

01:16:29 ◼   ► javaScript is a great example is not a web stuff and jobs jobs everywhere but [TS]

01:16:33 ◼   ► even things like sharp or a job on the server just as barbaric have to deal [TS]

01:16:38 ◼   ► with that or to have direct access to memory with pointers and then art made [TS]

01:16:41 ◼   ► that a little bit better but still like what are all these asterisks all over [TS]

01:16:44 ◼   ► the place doesn't really make any sense I don't know if you don't know see I [TS]

01:16:47 ◼   ► think you know a surprising number of developers now find that there you know [TS]

01:16:53 ◼   ► if you're a GUI application developer the reasons for you to know see to [TS]

01:16:57 ◼   ► figure out how to make a sheet come up on some pushes the button like there's [TS]

01:17:01 ◼   ► not a lot of those and it just seems like why don't have to worry about all [TS]

01:17:03 ◼   ► this crap so from the developer's perspective Swift is exciting because [TS]

01:17:09 ◼   ► like I wanna make an IRS that because I was absent cool and I like iPhones and [TS]

01:17:12 ◼   ► other stuff but it's kind of annoying that I gotta worry about all this stuff [TS]

01:17:16 ◼   ► and services now you not to worry about that stuff anymore and the syntax look [TS]

01:17:20 ◼   ► nice used to and so that is the the public face of sweatin' excitement over [TS]

01:17:24 ◼   ► finally a more modern language both in terms of appearance in athletics but [TS]

01:17:30 ◼   ► also in terms of how many things do I have to be concerned with when writing a [TS]

01:17:34 ◼   ► program that seem to me to be beneath the concern of me as like a programmer [TS]

01:17:40 ◼   ► and I think a lot of that is historical in terms of when languages serious [TS]

01:17:46 ◼   ► primary example so much as as you know if you draw the family tree of [TS]

01:17:51 ◼   ► programming languages there's an awful lot [TS]

01:17:53 ◼   ► of languages that derived from sea and in that era [TS]

01:17:58 ◼   ► you know I guess what late sixties early seventies when she was invented the [TS]

01:18:05 ◼   ► first edition of Kantar was like 1971 so late sixties early seventies the [TS]

01:18:13 ◼   ► computers are so incredibly slow I mean just a mind-bogglingly slowed by our [TS]

01:18:18 ◼   ► standards today you know it you know like the whole entire apollo mission was [TS]

01:18:23 ◼   ► done with less computing power than Apple watch as I mean that's just [TS]

01:18:26 ◼   ► ridiculous and so you needed please every single cycle of the CPU that you [TS]

01:18:31 ◼   ► could and that meant being as a programmer writing that is incredibly [TS]

01:18:35 ◼   ► low level where you're you know you know managing all the memory by hand because [TS]

01:18:40 ◼   ► if it works then it's incredibly efficient and then if it doesn't work [TS]

01:18:43 ◼   ► you just have to fix it fix the boats but like to retain released up is a [TS]

01:18:48 ◼   ► perfect example of that where it's you know and I know when they first started [TS]

01:18:53 ◼   ► trying to go away from it and it was funny because it's an interesting [TS]

01:18:56 ◼   ► example of Apple you know going down an alley and then a deciding against it [TS]

01:19:01 ◼   ► which was at some point in the last decade they introduced garbage [TS]

01:19:05 ◼   ► collection to cocoa [TS]

01:19:08 ◼   ► pretty sure it was like any early years of burt run was definitely after a [TS]

01:19:14 ◼   ► minute left and I know there is a lot of reluctance from people who got it and [TS]

01:19:21 ◼   ► people who didn't have at least didn't think they had problems dealing with the [TS]

01:19:24 ◼   ► manual retain release memory management didn't like garbage collection at all [TS]

01:19:29 ◼   ► and it turns out [TS]

01:19:30 ◼   ► Appleton like it either eventually got rid of it you know all the people who [TS]

01:19:34 ◼   ► thought I was finally this garbage collection like one of the big reasons [TS]

01:19:38 ◼   ► to even consider garbage collectors just like I said you know i'm Jack Dorsey [TS]

01:19:44 ◼   ► started to look old and crappy why do I have to worry so much about memory when [TS]

01:19:47 ◼   ► program for this pipeline make the platform feel feel older and more [TS]

01:19:51 ◼   ► primitive and less capable I can program for Android or Windows or whatever and I [TS]

01:19:56 ◼   ► don't have to worry about this and like really I just want to make my appt right [TS]

01:19:59 ◼   ► I want to decide I want to write the code that's going to make my appt do the [TS]

01:20:03 ◼   ► things my app doesn't care about memory like can't just take care of that for me [TS]

01:20:06 ◼   ► and so the only reason they go down the garbage collection by the cycle here is [TS]

01:20:11 ◼   ► one way we can make people not have to worry about retaining they said it was [TS]

01:20:14 ◼   ► like well you put in there retains their leases but they won't do anything or [TS]

01:20:17 ◼   ► whatever and garbage collection for a variety of reasons was difficult to go [TS]

01:20:22 ◼   ► with objective scenes in particular because it is [TS]

01:20:25 ◼   ► percent of C and because it's very difficult for garbage collector to know [TS]

01:20:28 ◼   ► enough information about the CAS parts of your program which may be right in [TS]

01:20:32 ◼   ► the Objective C or maybe in data that's coming out of C libraries to know enough [TS]

01:20:36 ◼   ► to do the right thing with that stuff and so it was kind of not technically [TS]

01:20:41 ◼   ► infeasible but like never completely closed solution we could be like I feel [TS]

01:20:45 ◼   ► like a hundred percent of the time we will do the right thing here and you [TS]

01:20:50 ◼   ► know and and eventually they they launched it was out there you could use [TS]

01:20:54 ◼   ► it they don't put it on some teams that eventually pulled it back right and this [TS]

01:20:57 ◼   ► was getting up before with like things that have been true but with the [TS]

01:21:00 ◼   ► beginning there is now going to be coming in [TS]

01:21:02 ◼   ► to the public eye the other aspects with setting aside the syntax and the [TS]

01:21:06 ◼   ► modernization in terms of look at this language that does more modern thing [TS]

01:21:10 ◼   ► that lets the developers not worry about the things I'm not worried about it and [TS]

01:21:14 ◼   ► express themselves in a more compact elegant form just just solving the [TS]

01:21:18 ◼   ► problem then when I saw you mentioned look more like pseudocode that's because [TS]

01:21:21 ◼   ► you're not consider code you're not concerned with the little details like [TS]

01:21:24 ◼   ► here's the algorithm here's here roughly the steps I don't want to be concerned [TS]

01:21:28 ◼   ► about the details on it does all that but the other thing that's been about [TS]

01:21:32 ◼   ► this is an interesting contrast to what you just mentioned about like see being [TS]

01:21:35 ◼   ► made in the day when computers were slow and it was discussed by Craig as well [TS]

01:21:39 ◼   ► and talk about the the just-in-time compilers the jet and everything it is [TS]

01:21:44 ◼   ► essentially a bet against a virtual machines with with garbage recycling [TS]

01:21:50 ◼   ► garbage collectors right it is a bet against the things that java does and C [TS]

01:21:54 ◼   ► sharp and you know and drive which is Delta Virtual Machine [TS]

01:21:58 ◼   ► are all the Java JavaScript engines that run on our web browser's JavaScript is [TS]

01:22:02 ◼   ► in a tough spot because it's like they're stuck finding a way to make [TS]

01:22:06 ◼   ► JavaScript fast business everywhere in web browsers and no really controls that [TS]

01:22:09 ◼   ► platform and so that's why we had to put all his brain parenting JavaScript fast [TS]

01:22:14 ◼   ► but the garbage collectors was going more in that direction but as you [TS]

01:22:20 ◼   ► mentioned in the description of sweat the small saucepan from like an [TS]

01:22:23 ◼   ► operating system up to like a scripting system when you get down to low level [TS]

01:22:27 ◼   ► you can't have a garbage collector doing things [TS]

01:22:30 ◼   ► unpredictable things that unpredictable times and even if it's predictable you [TS]

01:22:34 ◼   ► can have the garbage go to like take these pauses to walk your trees of [TS]

01:22:38 ◼   ► things to find out what needs to be collected even you know there's a lot of [TS]

01:22:41 ◼   ► great technology and the job world making garbage collectors don't induce [TS]

01:22:45 ◼   ► pauses and are are more predictable but nothing is as predictable as something [TS]

01:22:50 ◼   ► that is entirely deterministic like arc something that is determined at compile [TS]

01:22:54 ◼   ► time with their put in that potentially putting the returns in releases for you [TS]

01:22:58 ◼   ► and there's debate as to whether there are you know theoretically can garbage [TS]

01:23:03 ◼   ► collection approach the reliability and performance characteristics needed for [TS]

01:23:07 ◼   ► the kernel of an operating system I think Microsoft has had various projects [TS]

01:23:10 ◼   ► to try to make a sort of memory manage operating system or whatever but Swift [TS]

01:23:14 ◼   ► is about heavily in the other direction and this bet was made when are came out [TS]

01:23:18 ◼   ► for Objective C not so much of its west but it [TS]

01:23:21 ◼   ► doubling down aspect is that to make a language that fulfills the goals set out [TS]

01:23:25 ◼   ► for swift we have to not have this virtual machine and garbage collection [TS]

01:23:31 ◼   ► that does all the stuff we have to do we have to basically nail things down more [TS]

01:23:36 ◼   ► figure things out at compile time make everything about a deterministic only [TS]

01:23:40 ◼   ► then will it become possible to match both the performance and the start of [TS]

01:23:46 ◼   ► the predictability of C code so you can write your operating system kernel your [TS]

01:23:50 ◼   ► audio subsystem or I don't know you real-time operating system for your car [TS]

01:23:54 ◼   ► we'll see about that but but you can write that type of code without [TS]

01:23:57 ◼   ► wondering when you know when the garbage collector is going to pause for a second [TS]

01:24:03 ◼   ► to walk some tree or when something's gonna get collector how much memory is [TS]

01:24:06 ◼   ► gonna be available at any given time based on the collector and paste code [TS]

01:24:09 ◼   ► ran before you called into this code or even when you're running on a modern [TS]

01:24:13 ◼   ► computer that is very fast and maybe that pause isn't even a full second [TS]

01:24:17 ◼   ► maybe it's just you know two hundred milliseconds but a fraction of a second [TS]

01:24:22 ◼   ► in certain contexts that that pause is is just kills the user experience i mean [TS]

01:24:30 ◼   ► and that's not to bad mouth and right but it's why I mean I've heard from a [TS]

01:24:34 ◼   ► lot of people that dealing with a garbage collected system is one of the [TS]

01:24:36 ◼   ► reasons why Android spent years trying to get to what I S users thought was a [TS]

01:24:42 ◼   ► smooth user interface right from the get-go because the garbage collector [TS]

01:24:45 ◼   ► would run while you're scrolling list or something like that and you get these [TS]

01:24:48 ◼   ► little starters are pauses and they were fractions of a second hole second long [TS]

01:24:52 ◼   ► pause but [TS]

01:24:53 ◼   ► just little fraction of a second and in the real-time situation if it's some [TS]

01:24:58 ◼   ► kind of camera based thing running on a car or something like that you really [TS]

01:25:01 ◼   ► don't want to have an unpredictable even fifth of a second pause and I have [TS]

01:25:07 ◼   ► possibly collectors but the whole point is if you give up pausing essentially [TS]

01:25:10 ◼   ► what you're doing is having it in the general case having something like [TS]

01:25:14 ◼   ► reference counting happening in a small case like this generational collectors [TS]

01:25:17 ◼   ► and long livers are short lived objects like you can you can avoid possible to [TS]

01:25:21 ◼   ► avoid poisoning you basically built up garbage and it is also mentioned by [TS]

01:25:25 ◼   ► Craig the idea that they can run like a kind of excuse of how was it around [TS]

01:25:31 ◼   ► their house devices there they can fit their stack they get their operating [TS]

01:25:36 ◼   ► system and there are libraries in a smaller memory footprint but they say [TS]

01:25:40 ◼   ► they probably that you know what [TS]

01:25:42 ◼   ► reading from the is thinking alike but different area for a footprint than some [TS]

01:25:46 ◼   ► of our competitors who languages don't have these characteristics like Android [TS]

01:25:50 ◼   ► devices because they built it too much garbage that's basically a choice you [TS]

01:25:54 ◼   ► have you there something has to decide which memory is available for use with [TS]

01:26:00 ◼   ► which memory are we done with and we can use again for something else which [TS]

01:26:03 ◼   ► memory is still in use and park does that by you know and park which [TS]

01:26:07 ◼   ► underlies the objective CNC does that by as it runs it says I'm using this now [TS]

01:26:11 ◼   ► it's available now I'm using this now available now if you like in the code [TS]

01:26:15 ◼   ► path along with executing code and garbage collection is I just plow [TS]

01:26:18 ◼   ► bravely poet and something else the garbage collector occasionally figures [TS]

01:26:22 ◼   ► out what is available for everybody else and what isn't hopefully you can do that [TS]

01:26:25 ◼   ► without disturbing the other guys planning bravely forward but sometimes [TS]

01:26:28 ◼   ► you have to stop him from going into a possibly one that doesn't stop the [TS]

01:26:33 ◼   ► ongoing code to figure out what's available it has to necessarily be you [TS]

01:26:36 ◼   ► know leave some stuff on the floor and say I'm not sure if this is a news yet I [TS]

01:26:40 ◼   ► can't find out without stopping that the guy that's running over there so I'm [TS]

01:26:43 ◼   ► just gonna leave it off the side but what about down to is you never know [TS]

01:26:48 ◼   ► based on you know you got us two things the collector and the program you never [TS]

01:26:52 ◼   ► know at any given point when I'm at this point in the code how much memory is [TS]

01:26:55 ◼   ► gonna be available in in this process the collector on here and then maybe [TS]

01:27:00 ◼   ► it'll be here but the collectors behind is running on a different course maybe [TS]

01:27:02 ◼   ► this will be available whenever [TS]

01:27:04 ◼   ► and you just end up with a little bit of extra garbage and the overhead of the [TS]

01:27:07 ◼   ► virtual machine south and all that stuff before you get into like executing by [TS]

01:27:11 ◼   ► code like Java does vs native and all that stuff with and our objective see [TS]

01:27:15 ◼   ► our bet heavily against the virtual machines like Java Virtual Machine and [TS]

01:27:20 ◼   ► certainly nothing like the jet craziness that we had to do for JavaScript to make [TS]

01:27:24 ◼   ► that fast [TS]

01:27:25 ◼   ► garbage collection the analogy works and so I can see why that stock as the [TS]

01:27:30 ◼   ► terminology but you know like any any analogy breaks down at a certain level [TS]

01:27:35 ◼   ► and in the real world the garbage that you keep in philadelphia we've garbage [TS]

01:27:41 ◼   ► collected once a week [TS]

01:27:43 ◼   ► the garbage you know the fact that by tuesday we've got six days of garbage in [TS]

01:27:49 ◼   ► the house isn't a problem because we don't generate that much garbage in the [TS]

01:27:52 ◼   ► just sits tied up and bags in our garage whereas on a computing device [TS]

01:27:58 ◼   ► uncollected garbage is taking memory and memory is a precious resource it's [TS]

01:28:04 ◼   ► almost like you're gonna studio apartment uncollected garbage [TS]

01:28:08 ◼   ► yeah and i think is a good garbage collectors take advantage of this a try [TS]

01:28:13 ◼   ► to be smart about the tight loop and inside this loop I do something with [TS]

01:28:17 ◼   ► some amount of memory from the next iteration totally done with it I don't [TS]

01:28:21 ◼   ► need a new set of memory I just keep using that same region of memory over [TS]

01:28:24 ◼   ► and over again this time I don't need to allocate and get rid of it like I just [TS]

01:28:28 ◼   ► need to know say I'm using it ok now I'm done I'm using it I'm done using it and [TS]

01:28:33 ◼   ► I'm done rather just creating a new i picking up every time a very naive [TS]

01:28:37 ◼   ► old-style garbage materially are you making any time you need some memories [TS]

01:28:40 ◼   ► that I got that member of the divers are you going to make it to the next [TS]

01:28:44 ◼   ► iteration loop in the garbage but rather run yet it's like oh you're making a new [TS]

01:28:47 ◼   ► I remember that object and a programmer manually managing member would never [TS]

01:28:52 ◼   ► like a look at the Maritime got the memory from the old office I'm done with [TS]

01:28:55 ◼   ► it I'm not using it anymore [TS]

01:28:57 ◼   ► take this right and so a good programmer might not leave all running the code [TS]

01:29:02 ◼   ► that was written with this is the problem that they really primitive [TS]

01:29:05 ◼   ► garbage collectors back in the day in the garden has become smarter and [TS]

01:29:09 ◼   ► smarter we can divide the world into objects short-lived and objects to hang [TS]

01:29:14 ◼   ► around for a long time but slightly different pools about these short-lived [TS]

01:29:17 ◼   ► on fixing the ones that hang around and let's try to you know what you're trying [TS]

01:29:21 ◼   ► to do is get to the point where if you gave this to you know if you get this to [TS]

01:29:25 ◼   ► an assembly language programming you should the assembly language they [TS]

01:29:28 ◼   ► wouldn't look at it and go this is the stupidest code is incredibly wasteful of [TS]

01:29:32 ◼   ► resources you know you want to look at and go oh oh yeah no that's that's [TS]

01:29:36 ◼   ► pretty much as efficiently as you could have written it like I'm you're not [TS]

01:29:39 ◼   ► allocating tons of memory and then leaving it allocated and not reusing it [TS]

01:29:45 ◼   ► because you don't know that you can look at it and say what I can tell this [TS]

01:29:49 ◼   ► memory is never access the NYU keeping it around while the garbage that he [TS]

01:29:53 ◼   ► doesn't know [TS]

01:29:53 ◼   ► so this is kind of a philosophical debate can garbage collection ever be [TS]

01:29:53 ◼   ► so this is kind of a philosophical debate can garbage collection ever be [TS]

01:30:00 ◼   ► efficient and as predictable as manual memory management and arc and what I [TS]

01:30:06 ◼   ► realized you know swift and Objective C with arc is fair to say we're going to [TS]

01:30:11 ◼   ► try to automate the part where we say retain this do stuff with it released it [TS]

01:30:15 ◼   ► retain this new stuff with the release it so the developer is not the right of [TS]

01:30:19 ◼   ► it so that the compiler right to sue them if you were to look at the assembly [TS]

01:30:22 ◼   ► code we can see a predictable pattern because there is some overhead doing all [TS]

01:30:26 ◼   ► those you know a bumping up to retain counts and releasing like that's in your [TS]

01:30:31 ◼   ► running code the code of the guard childhood doesn't need to do it doesn't [TS]

01:30:34 ◼   ► need income and retain counsel you may retain counsel can just run because it [TS]

01:30:37 ◼   ► knows the garbage collectors gonna take care of that and so the bed with arc and [TS]

01:30:41 ◼   ► swift is it is more efficient and predictable to do that work in line [TS]

01:30:45 ◼   ► because then we know exactly when that work will be done and we can do we can [TS]

01:30:49 ◼   ► be smarter about it like we can in the in the binary that we generate look at [TS]

01:30:54 ◼   ► it and say are we being smart doing stupid here versus it running the [TS]

01:30:57 ◼   ► garbage collector like well now there's two things in place there's the program [TS]

01:31:00 ◼   ► and as the garbage collector and the program looks ok in terms of what is [TS]

01:31:04 ◼   ► doing semantically but how will the garbage collector interact with us how [TS]

01:31:08 ◼   ► would deal with the memory and Latino went to make it available for reuse or [TS]

01:31:12 ◼   ► whatever I don't know if I'll be able to find it I did I remember reading on that [TS]

01:31:19 ◼   ► website cora remember reading on Quora page where somebody asked why do Android [TS]

01:31:24 ◼   ► devices tend to ship with so much more RAM that iOS devices and like the top [TS]

01:31:28 ◼   ► voted answer was and who wrote it but it was more lies you know that because [TS]

01:31:33 ◼   ► Android is garbage collected at effectively job aids its Java running in [TS]

01:31:38 ◼   ► Google's handmade ripoff of Jabba I'm sure there's no way you can convince [TS]

01:31:50 ◼   ► everybody this end and I do think there is a factor in this where Apple just [TS]

01:31:54 ◼   ► wants to use less RAM because it's cheaper and they save money and this is [TS]

01:31:58 ◼   ► one of the ways that they get to you know 38 39 percent profit margins [TS]

01:32:04 ◼   ► but there really is a factor there that from an effective standpoint like [TS]

01:32:08 ◼   ► Android device that ships with three gigs RAM has about as much effective RAM [TS]

01:32:14 ◼   ► for the use the user using device as an iOS device with 1 gigabyte of RAM and [TS]

01:32:19 ◼   ► this is like this before you even consider the idea of like bytecode [TS]

01:32:22 ◼   ► although Apple's going that direction with its bigger thing but not quite but [TS]

01:32:25 ◼   ► anyway the idea in the Java Virtual Machine or any kind of virtual machine [TS]

01:32:29 ◼   ► that you but you produced is binary code for the virtual machine and the virtual [TS]

01:32:35 ◼   ► machine is this hypothetical thing that is not your actual CPU and then the [TS]

01:32:40 ◼   ► virtual machine itself will will execute that code natively on the CPU like so [TS]

01:32:45 ◼   ► that the ideal job is like how you can make this one Java bytecode application [TS]

01:32:48 ◼   ► and send it to an x86 device that a PowerPC devised an output device and [TS]

01:32:52 ◼   ► this same quarter of binary because it's bytecode will run all of them because [TS]

01:32:56 ◼   ► they all have Java virtual machines and the job of ultra voter machines like [TS]

01:32:59 ◼   ► skewed natively on the individual platforms but you just have won by an [TS]

01:33:03 ◼   ► area that was the write once run anywhere type of thing for [TS]

01:33:07 ◼   ► I'm not sure the dalvik designers of it I think they have think they might code [TS]

01:33:12 ◼   ► but either way like the idea of a machine as you have a you don't have a [TS]

01:33:16 ◼   ► real target architecture you have a virtual machine and that's what your [TS]

01:33:19 ◼   ► your code to and then you have to eventually get to native code that is [TS]

01:33:22 ◼   ► just more stuff between you and seeing how this is going to actually execute on [TS]

01:33:26 ◼   ► your actual hardware and I do think that's a keen observation that the whole [TS]

01:33:30 ◼   ► segment of the show that that Swift is a bet that there is something better [TS]

01:33:36 ◼   ► there's a better way to to better way to get all the advantages of those garbage [TS]

01:33:40 ◼   ► collected virtual machines and avoid all of the overhead and that he met the [TS]

01:33:46 ◼   ► medicine in the bed like any theoretical computer science debate about is that [TS]

01:33:50 ◼   ► theoretically possible to have a positive garbage like there are [TS]

01:33:54 ◼   ► advantages to the garbage but it doesn't have to have that inline code that [TS]

01:33:57 ◼   ► messes with you know memory management in in the actual execution the program [TS]

01:34:01 ◼   ► you can just go forward as fast as they can and if the government cut their [TS]

01:34:05 ◼   ► could do its job and keep up with it in just over there would be great but the [TS]

01:34:08 ◼   ► other part of this is like the idea [TS]

01:34:12 ◼   ► that computing power not just like CPU power whatever but if you were to grab [TS]

01:34:19 ◼   ► anything having to do with computing power in terms of how fast commit to [TS]

01:34:22 ◼   ► memory how much memory do we have what is the single threaded into your [TS]

01:34:25 ◼   ► performance chart about it like single threaded insert your performance of [TS]

01:34:30 ◼   ► Intel CPUs over the past ten years or whatever and the curve is not a hockey [TS]

01:34:34 ◼   ► stick going up any more like in our youth in the heyday of CPU architectures [TS]

01:34:39 ◼   ► every year there be new chip in it was like twice as fast and you know you [TS]

01:34:43 ◼   ► could just magically fast you don't have to recompile you do not use a new [TS]

01:34:46 ◼   ► technology like that the clock speed would double and the you know the number [TS]

01:34:51 ◼   ► of execution units would double and just everything was was roses every year I [TS]

01:34:56 ◼   ► remember in this is this latest the nineties internship Windows software [TS]

01:35:00 ◼   ► development place and is writing his coat and everybody had a 486 and [TS]

01:35:08 ◼   ► opinions were just coming out so I don't know what youre this would have been [TS]

01:35:12 ◼   ► around 95 maybe 94 somewhere around there and the one guy got one first one [TS]

01:35:19 ◼   ► of the engineers government first and it was so ridiculously faster than [TS]

01:35:23 ◼   ► everybody else and it gave us good kid i mean you know usually programmers get [TS]

01:35:26 ◼   ► good good devices because they really you know even if you're like a [TS]

01:35:30 ◼   ► penny-pinching manager if if it takes a long time for the code is compiled [TS]

01:35:34 ◼   ► getting your engineers machines are compiled code festers [TS]

01:35:37 ◼   ► disguise machine was so much faster that we would people would wait until he was [TS]

01:35:42 ◼   ► like away from his desk and then uses computer to compile stuff because it was [TS]

01:35:45 ◼   ► took less time than waiting for to compile Iran desk yeah I remember just [TS]

01:35:49 ◼   ► like seeing doom running around like I do more on the pending before the age of [TS]

01:35:54 ◼   ► video card this is on the CPU it was just magic how much faster was just the [TS]

01:35:59 ◼   ► same program like it is the same program just for free everything you did got [TS]

01:36:03 ◼   ► faster so when we were in that part of the hockey stick graph I saw it looked [TS]

01:36:07 ◼   ► like it had at that part of the largest occur where it's like going up up up and [TS]

01:36:11 ◼   ► that's nice level often becomes like a mound you know we're going to the slope [TS]

01:36:14 ◼   ► is decreasing over time [TS]

01:36:16 ◼   ► and if we were still on that hockey stick I think it's inevitable GM's in [TS]

01:36:22 ◼   ► any sort of higher abstraction thing would have won because it's like yeah a [TS]

01:36:26 ◼   ► little bit slower and you can get behind and we may be using remember they're [TS]

01:36:31 ◼   ► supposed to but just everything is on the big hockey stick and it doesn't [TS]

01:36:34 ◼   ► matter your concerns are pointless they'll be dwarfed by by be in [TS]

01:36:39 ◼   ► excitability of progress and progress has slowed for two reasons one the move [TS]

01:36:44 ◼   ► to mobile has pushed everybody back down that chart a little bit and they really [TS]

01:36:49 ◼   ► can't think we're back in the hockey stick like doubling their CPU speed [TS]

01:36:53 ◼   ► everything but all they did was they just got shut down the hockey stick [TS]

01:36:56 ◼   ► because these things are a little CPUs with small batteries and their mom [TS]

01:37:02 ◼   ► globes that don't allow for you no fans or anything like that kind of back in [TS]

01:37:06 ◼   ► the you know the old days and that means we're also back in performance on the [TS]

01:37:11 ◼   ► iPhone CPUs they used to be like dishwasher operating distance marcia [TS]

01:37:15 ◼   ► CPUs like they were terrible and they've been slowly catching up to now with the [TS]

01:37:19 ◼   ► iPad Pro it's like this is a modern MacBook CPU but not surpassing the [TS]

01:37:25 ◼   ► desktop no no no they're they're still there we're still everything to slower [TS]

01:37:29 ◼   ► and that's been a huge advantage for Apple having a native platform like back [TS]

01:37:34 ◼   ► in the day where everything was Objective C which is the baseline which [TS]

01:37:37 ◼   ► to be able to get the iPhone one out the door not been working like the [TS]

01:37:41 ◼   ► BlackBerry people thought it was a fake demo seemed impossible now and then we [TS]

01:37:46 ◼   ► see things like to watch where we're pushed back to wow this is really slow [TS]

01:37:50 ◼   ► again [TS]

01:37:51 ◼   ► yeah and then the other aspect of this is Moore's Law Moore's law can't [TS]

01:37:56 ◼   ► continue forever the density of transistors on a CPU doubling every 18 [TS]

01:38:02 ◼   ► months but eventually get down to like quarks and gluons you know having the [TS]

01:38:08 ◼   ► size of things the mass starts to get really funky really fast and as far as [TS]

01:38:11 ◼   ► we are aware you can't keep subdividing matter wherever you go down to a [TS]

01:38:15 ◼   ► fundamental particles and way before you get on the fundamental particles [TS]

01:38:18 ◼   ► everything becomes screw in terms of the laws of physics and quantum mechanics [TS]

01:38:21 ◼   ► and its so creepy sizes like we continue to march forward but there is there is [TS]

01:38:27 ◼   ► an [TS]

01:38:27 ◼   ► end in sight where you're gonna have to convert the new technology like quantum [TS]

01:38:32 ◼   ► computing you know it's not as if this day can't go on forever and so the bed [TS]

01:38:39 ◼   ► with swift is the Arab time they were in now where progress on computing power [TS]

01:38:44 ◼   ► and performance has 44 both like practical reasons you know in terms of [TS]

01:38:49 ◼   ► how much harder is it for Intel to make their top in Cbus pastor every year at [TS]

01:38:54 ◼   ► how long does it take to get to medics process node for making you know feature [TS]

01:38:57 ◼   ► sizes smaller interviews and because of the move to mobile and wearable and who [TS]

01:39:00 ◼   ► knows what else that this is a good time to say I don't think the hardware is [TS]

01:39:07 ◼   ► going to make it so that those virtual machines are better suited to apples and [TS]

01:39:12 ◼   ► then the solution that represented by swift and arc with Objective C and so [TS]

01:39:18 ◼   ► let's say you know the language in the next 20 years the next 20 years he's [TS]

01:39:22 ◼   ► like this is the best technical solution until quantum computers or whatever this [TS]

01:39:26 ◼   ► is what we're going with and Apple is essentially begging the company on that [TS]

01:39:30 ◼   ► and it's been a good bet so far because that I think it gives them a huge [TS]

01:39:33 ◼   ► advantage during the iPhone hair essentially Bais device error where it [TS]

01:39:40 ◼   ► was very difficult for the competitors to catch up with them until the CPUs did [TS]

01:39:43 ◼   ► start climbing up that high tech as of now now we can support Java Virtual [TS]

01:39:47 ◼   ► Machine and have a responsive GUI you know just a little more ramen [TS]

01:39:52 ◼   ► occurs to me and I might speculate about car but one of the things that makes me [TS]

01:39:59 ◼   ► laugh about the car idea is that it's like the one team at Apple that's [TS]

01:40:05 ◼   ► writing software that the computing part of the device [TS]

01:40:09 ◼   ► doesn't have to really worry about battery life I mean the car itself [TS]

01:40:14 ◼   ► obviously is going to have to worry about battery life tremendously but the [TS]

01:40:17 ◼   ► amount of the battery that towards propelling you know multi ton device is [TS]

01:40:23 ◼   ► you know everything and the little computer that lights up the dashboard [TS]

01:40:28 ◼   ► and maybe you know whatever else with the sensors and stuff is insignificant [TS]

01:40:32 ◼   ► but it really the exception to where things are going the watch to me is the [TS]

01:40:36 ◼   ► better example of where things are going where the computing device is getting [TS]

01:40:42 ◼   ► smaller and smaller I mean and you know I don't know what the idea would be but [TS]

01:40:47 ◼   ► surely they gonna be making devices that make the watch look big [TS]

01:40:50 ◼   ► you know in the years to come and so they're never gonna get out of the need [TS]

01:40:54 ◼   ► I don't think the foreseeable future [TS]

01:40:56 ◼   ► 22 have really efficient code that runs on what everybody would consider to be a [TS]

01:41:04 ◼   ► painfully slowed processor because we keep the desire to keep making things [TS]

01:41:10 ◼   ► smaller and smaller and have little fingernail size things that do clever [TS]

01:41:13 ◼   ► stuff is inevitable and really had to view it kind of is like epochs in [TS]

01:41:19 ◼   ► history like there was there is prob going up which was awesome our computers [TS]

01:41:22 ◼   ► would get faster more powerful just like everything about them would get better [TS]

01:41:26 ◼   ► just year after year and was amazing right and if you get starry-eyed [TS]

01:41:29 ◼   ► extrapolate from that used to be liked by the time we're adults computers will [TS]

01:41:32 ◼   ► be infinitely fast and have more memory use size of a planet but now it works we [TS]

01:41:38 ◼   ► start reaching the limits of you know so I can wait for lithography and all the [TS]

01:41:42 ◼   ► other and instruction level parallelism all the other side of very difficult [TS]

01:41:46 ◼   ► problems that make it harder to make or even just like heat dissipation with the [TS]

01:41:50 ◼   ► the major its wars like you know what you're using now 34 gaidar CPUs they had [TS]

01:41:56 ◼   ► 34 cigarette CPUs a long time ago to why we're not using 700 like we're going [TS]

01:42:02 ◼   ► into the limits of the current way we do computation and so we're kind of in a [TS]

01:42:07 ◼   ► dead period like we're making progress and we're doing interesting things and [TS]

01:42:10 ◼   ► we're going the other direction saying well when I made a lot of progress on [TS]

01:42:12 ◼   ► top end but we can shrink these suckers down really small now is not pretty [TS]

01:42:16 ◼   ► awesome you can have a smart phone or smart watch [TS]

01:42:18 ◼   ► but there will inevitably come a time when we come out of the slower period [TS]

01:42:21 ◼   ► and golf into another hockey stick with its quantum computing or whatever [TS]

01:42:24 ◼   ► weather all dead or not like there will be further progress is not the end of [TS]

01:42:27 ◼   ► progress but if your Apple and you're trying to figure out how to make the [TS]

01:42:33 ◼   ► development platform for right now and for the next twenty years you have to [TS]

01:42:37 ◼   ► sort of bed like what is the best fit for this and it's you know Apple have [TS]

01:42:41 ◼   ► the benefit of everyone else going first and going with virtual machines [TS]

01:42:45 ◼   ► wetherbee job rst sharper the common language runtime the Microsoft and [TS]

01:42:49 ◼   ► seeing how JavaScript worked out in the browser and then essentially said [TS]

01:42:52 ◼   ► because both mobile and the slowdown in top-end performance increase we believe [TS]

01:42:57 ◼   ► this is the best bet for the next twenty years or so because they starve Iran [TS]

01:43:00 ◼   ► else go before them and so that that's where we are with this I don't think you [TS]

01:43:05 ◼   ► know what does not its offensive language the next hundred years could be [TS]

01:43:08 ◼   ► but again the beauty of these details not being in swift itself as there's [TS]

01:43:13 ◼   ► nothing in the language itself to dictate that it couldn't be run on Tower [TS]

01:43:16 ◼   ► virtual machines that's not the correct solution for Apple right now and that's [TS]

01:43:19 ◼   ► not all right let me tell you about our next friend of the show and it's a good [TS]

01:43:24 ◼   ► friend at wealth front [TS]

01:43:26 ◼   ► show the last few episodes they are here they give you a low-cost automated [TS]

01:43:31 ◼   ► investment service makes it super-easy to invest your money [TS]

01:43:34 ◼   ► the right way you just put money into wealth account and then they manage the [TS]

01:43:39 ◼   ► portfolio you you ask they ask you a couple questions about how risk-averse [TS]

01:43:45 ◼   ► you are how aggressive you wanna be as you can obviously be investing money in [TS]

01:43:50 ◼   ► the stock market it could go down it's not you know not a bank account so they [TS]

01:43:54 ◼   ► ask you a couple questions to see how comfortable you are with risk and then [TS]

01:43:58 ◼   ► they just take it from there and that's it [TS]

01:44:00 ◼   ► they literally say whether you're just starting out you can count which is 500 [TS]

01:44:05 ◼   ► bucks if you wanna put millions of dollars in there you can do it too seems [TS]

01:44:10 ◼   ► crazy to me but you know really its kels all the way from you know you've been [TS]

01:44:15 ◼   ► $500 put in the market to millions of dollars you can do it [TS]

01:44:19 ◼   ► why would you use them instead of a traditional money managers basically [TS]

01:44:22 ◼   ► what welfare is is an automated service that replaces a human money manager [TS]

01:44:27 ◼   ► the big reason to do it is that number one they're just putting the index funds [TS]

01:44:32 ◼   ► anyway which is really a smart long-term strategy if you read anything about the [TS]

01:44:36 ◼   ► ways that people can actually you know invest for success in long-term putting [TS]

01:44:41 ◼   ► money in the index funds to go that's pretty much what well front does but [TS]

01:44:45 ◼   ► they balance between different index fund based on you know monitoring [TS]

01:44:49 ◼   ► systems all the time monitoring the market all the time and moving money [TS]

01:44:53 ◼   ► around between different index funds to keep your risk at the right level and [TS]

01:44:57 ◼   ► the big thing is is that wealth front charges way lower than traditional money [TS]

01:45:03 ◼   ► managers 1.01% is about the average with some of those some of the money managers [TS]

01:45:09 ◼   ► out there charged up to 3% and that's what you have under management so if you [TS]

01:45:13 ◼   ► have you know $10,000 under management they they take a fee of 3% of your money [TS]

01:45:19 ◼   ► not like your profits but your money [TS]

01:45:22 ◼   ► well fronts is just 0.25% and they only start charging that above $10,000 so if [TS]

01:45:33 ◼   ► you only you know once you get $10,000 account that when they start charging [TS]

01:45:37 ◼   ► their 0.25% and if you use the code I have here for you they actually bumped [TS]

01:45:45 ◼   ► up to 15,000 and so if you have fifteen thousand and then put one more dollar in [TS]

01:45:51 ◼   ► there they charged the fee on that one dollar that over 15,000 [TS]

01:45:55 ◼   ► gone from them go to hear you go to find out more [TS]

01:45:59 ◼   ► well front dot com slash the talk show and again you can start which is 500 [TS]

01:46:05 ◼   ► bucks and they even say right here that that's really how most of people who do [TS]

01:46:09 ◼   ► it put a little money in there see how it works and when you see how it works [TS]

01:46:13 ◼   ► you like the results that when you put your quote unquote real money and [TS]

01:46:16 ◼   ► so go to wealth front dot com slash the talk show actually save money because [TS]

01:46:21 ◼   ► you get that you get bumped up to $15,000 before they even start charging [TS]

01:46:26 ◼   ► you a nickel to go check them out and here's the part where I have to try to [TS]

01:46:30 ◼   ► stay out of prison for compliance purposes I have to tell you that well [TS]

01:46:34 ◼   ► front incorporated is an SEC registered investment advisor brokerage services [TS]

01:46:39 ◼   ► are offered through well front brokerage corporation member FINRA and SIPC this [TS]

01:46:46 ◼   ► is not a solicitation to buy or sell securities investing in securities [TS]

01:46:50 ◼   ► involves risks and there is the possibility of losing money [TS]

01:46:54 ◼   ► past performance is no guarantee of future results please visit while front [TS]

01:46:58 ◼   ► I come to read their full disclosure so far so good nobody from the SEC is a [TS]

01:47:06 ◼   ► matter of time till I find you [TS]

01:47:07 ◼   ► anything else on swift and and they do more of those things and I think we're [TS]

01:47:18 ◼   ► working our way down letter I guess we kind of are like schiller [TS]

01:47:23 ◼   ► talk show and buttery and I care we keep going down like list Chris Lattner is [TS]

01:47:29 ◼   ► unlike open-source podcast talk about programming languages with nerds but [TS]

01:47:33 ◼   ► eventually you get like individual developers alike the UIKit team during [TS]

01:47:37 ◼   ► interviews well maybe they won't go that far but I don't know I like the idea of [TS]

01:47:41 ◼   ► because you gonna change people you would think would be both in the [TS]

01:47:45 ◼   ► position and who's the asked about talking about more small technical [TS]

01:47:48 ◼   ► details they have doled out of the idea was to speak with one voice from the top [TS]

01:47:54 ◼   ► and it doesn't say too much and now we're now we're kind of moving down the [TS]

01:48:00 ◼   ► ladder well we speak with multiple voices from the top tiers and so they [TS]

01:48:05 ◼   ► can talk about a little bit different things like you know phil was not going [TS]

01:48:07 ◼   ► to talk to you about you know runtime casting things into protocols right but [TS]

01:48:13 ◼   ► very well as long as you keep going down at the the conversations get [TS]

01:48:17 ◼   ► more interesting to narrower audiences as opposed to always just being like the [TS]

01:48:22 ◼   ► big picture what are you doing stuff I enjoyed the thing i've detected when I [TS]

01:48:27 ◼   ► would define the new Apple the difference in all up on new Apple is [TS]

01:48:31 ◼   ► that there remain committed to secrecy on future products for the exact same [TS]

01:48:36 ◼   ► reasons they always have been that they don't want competitors to know from a [TS]

01:48:40 ◼   ► marketing perspective they feel that being able to avail these things it's a [TS]

01:48:43 ◼   ► surprise is an advantage and they get some a lot of publicity around their [TS]

01:48:47 ◼   ► events and announcements that they wouldn't have if they were blabbing [TS]

01:48:50 ◼   ► about everything in advance and I think also just the good old fashioned under [TS]

01:48:56 ◼   ► promise over to over deliver that if you keep talking about stuff in the future [TS]

01:48:59 ◼   ► all the time have negatively some of these things are gonna ship late and [TS]

01:49:03 ◼   ► then you've disappointed people in terms and you know but for stuff that's [TS]

01:49:08 ◼   ► already shipped and talking about decisions they've already made and the [TS]

01:49:11 ◼   ► stuff that out there I think that's where the differences I feel like all [TS]

01:49:14 ◼   ► doubtful was if we're misunderstood groom I don't we don't care you know you [TS]

01:49:19 ◼   ► either get it or you don't and if you like new Apple executive level really is [TS]

01:49:25 ◼   ► its open this is coming from the frustration I think of being [TS]

01:49:30 ◼   ► misunderstood and feeling like if we could just explain ourselves we'd be [TS]

01:49:35 ◼   ► less misunderstood and I wish that we could do if only like we all of our [TS]

01:49:39 ◼   ► commentary on our blogs and podcasts and everything only had a user name but they [TS]

01:49:43 ◼   ► had no way to contact us like the App Store be frustrating Apple I give people [TS]

01:49:48 ◼   ► a misunderstanding you but there was just no way you could find who this John [TS]

01:49:51 ◼   ► guy was about it i mean that's a good contrast terms of the organizations like [TS]

01:49:56 ◼   ► they'll talk a lot about that road map for swiftness with three engage with the [TS]

01:50:01 ◼   ► community but we best about this programming language that now is going [TS]

01:50:04 ◼   ► to be much bigger than Apple itself and as a community project but no more talk [TS]

01:50:08 ◼   ► to you about the App Store even if you have such as such a contrast in terms of [TS]

01:50:13 ◼   ► just talk to a person who would be reasonable with me like surely we can [TS]

01:50:17 ◼   ► work with that you hear all the the crazy stories about like that happens in [TS]

01:50:21 ◼   ► Review forever or they think you're violating someone's copyright but it's [TS]

01:50:24 ◼   ► like no you don't [TS]

01:50:25 ◼   ► the opposite there are violating mine and just things that you feel I can be [TS]

01:50:29 ◼   ► worked out between two reason people just talk to each other on the phone but [TS]

01:50:32 ◼   ► nevertheless take months I was there is no I know it was when the apt to quit [TS]

01:50:42 ◼   ► the App Store which one sketch well know the one that was reasons sketch [TS]

01:50:47 ◼   ► announced that they were leaving the App Store and again I don't know I don't [TS]

01:50:52 ◼   ► wanna call it the straw that broke the camel's back I don't know that it's [TS]

01:50:55 ◼   ► going to mean that anything's gonna happen but to me it was just emblematic [TS]

01:50:58 ◼   ► of the problems and especially in the Mac App Store because sketch was to my [TS]

01:51:04 ◼   ► mind the prototypical modern Mac productivity up its beloved it's so [TS]

01:51:12 ◼   ► popular I mean an apple obviously knows its popular they ship with the watch a [TS]

01:51:17 ◼   ► West St case they ship Photoshop templates for watch UI design and sketch [TS]

01:51:23 ◼   ► template for what you are designed so I think those are the only two you know [TS]

01:51:27 ◼   ► obviously anybody who uses a different graphics program could open up the PSP [TS]

01:51:30 ◼   ► Zune converter or something like that but the two that Apple ships you know [TS]

01:51:34 ◼   ► that you can just download from apple.com are for sketch in Photoshop so [TS]

01:51:38 ◼   ► to put it on the same pedestals Photoshop is you know it's pretty good [TS]

01:51:43 ◼   ► and they've won Apple Design Awards and they've been heavily promoted in the App [TS]

01:51:48 ◼   ► Store and for them to leave the App Store to me is just wow if they if [TS]

01:51:52 ◼   ► they're not happy in the App Store who is this [TS]

01:51:55 ◼   ► that's when Apple's narrative doesn't fit anymore because if you're an apple [TS]

01:51:58 ◼   ► and you want to have a narrative to make yourself feel better place to be like [TS]

01:52:02 ◼   ► well these are just the kind of thing we talked about the complaints about did [TS]

01:52:05 ◼   ► you know I don't need Aquitaine releases like well these are just the old people [TS]

01:52:08 ◼   ► like it we love them they're loyal to our platform they've been there a long [TS]

01:52:11 ◼   ► time your DOB is your Microsoft here whatever but really the future of the [TS]

01:52:16 ◼   ► platform is about new blood it's about new developers developers we haven't [TS]

01:52:20 ◼   ► heard of like say someone makes a new grant application that's not Adobe [TS]

01:52:24 ◼   ► that's from a smaller team that grows up on our platform that we were the first [TS]

01:52:28 ◼   ► and only platform they targeted that that is native to us you know [TS]

01:52:32 ◼   ► like that's what I like these this fresh young faces like new talent essentially [TS]

01:52:39 ◼   ► that means that the future of the plan the future of the platform is not old [TS]

01:52:42 ◼   ► crusty people who've been shipping on that platform is for thirty years right [TS]

01:52:45 ◼   ► its new people and so a new company had never heard of comes along and makes us [TS]

01:52:49 ◼   ► great graphics application that you know taking the world by storm and Apple [TS]

01:52:54 ◼   ► thing putting up alongside Photoshop invece yeah you know where it became [TS]

01:52:59 ◼   ► more than you can't just say well really the App Store is great for everybody is [TS]

01:53:02 ◼   ► just the old crusty people are used to the old ways to break the narrative yeah [TS]

01:53:06 ◼   ► one of the ways that sketch again is to me a poster child of what Apple wants [TS]

01:53:11 ◼   ► third party apps to be as I can only and it's not only because they you know it's [TS]

01:53:16 ◼   ► because they've how does a small team build an app that in some ways can [TS]

01:53:21 ◼   ► compete toe-to-toe Photoshop it's because they're leveraging all of this [TS]

01:53:26 ◼   ► great graphics stuff built into Mac OS tend same thing with Pixelmator same [TS]

01:53:32 ◼   ► thing with acorn from us you know that these apps written these graphics after [TS]

01:53:37 ◼   ► in a really small teams I mean gus is the only developer it flying me I mean [TS]

01:53:42 ◼   ► it's a one-person him there he can make an app that credibly stands as a [TS]

01:53:48 ◼   ► professional image editor because he's leveraging it when you make any sense to [TS]

01:53:52 ◼   ► go cross platform because it's it's all built on this system stuff and at that [TS]

01:53:57 ◼   ► without a warrant for multiple reasons one that's why they give you these API's [TS]

01:54:01 ◼   ► and they are happy to see them used and then they know that when they add new [TS]

01:54:05 ◼   ► features to the operating system like what's the thing on the new Renault 5 k [TS]

01:54:11 ◼   ► max where there's more colors on the monitor the DPP 30 damage or whatever [TS]

01:54:16 ◼   ► it's called right so then these apps I thinks catch one of these apps I know I [TS]

01:54:21 ◼   ► saw the release notes on the App Store one of them just an update that has [TS]

01:54:25 ◼   ► support for it already [TS]

01:54:26 ◼   ► whereas in the old days when you're not to bad mouth Adobe but with the Dobie [TS]

01:54:31 ◼   ► stuff where their cross platform they couldn't adopt like a new great new Mac [TS]

01:54:35 ◼   ► technology like this deep color on the five K I'm at because they have this [TS]

01:54:39 ◼   ► graphics engine [TS]

01:54:41 ◼   ► that is a level of abstraction and it's based on what's available on Mac and [TS]

01:54:46 ◼   ► Windows and Windows doesn't have it maybe there's you know it's going to [TS]

01:54:49 ◼   ► take them longer to be able to adopt it because then you've got these files that [TS]

01:54:54 ◼   ► have you know deep color that don't show up on Windows or something like that [TS]

01:54:57 ◼   ► it's just a perfect example of doing it the right way and they're getting out [TS]

01:55:04 ◼   ► anyway the one thing that stuck out to me on this and you like your example of [TS]

01:55:07 ◼   ► it if you could just talk to somebody and work this out was in the hubbub over [TS]

01:55:11 ◼   ► sketch leaving the App Store I was reading Michael side had a great blog [TS]

01:55:17 ◼   ► post a roundup blog post with like you know 89 10 different reactions from [TS]

01:55:22 ◼   ► around the web and he just noted at the end of the noted without any further [TS]

01:55:26 ◼   ► comment that he has an update to america that's been pending it's just a bug fix [TS]

01:55:32 ◼   ► update to one of his out there was pending review for 59 days is a bug fix [TS]

01:55:40 ◼   ► from a user's and 59 days later it still waiting to go under review and even that [TS]

01:55:45 ◼   ► you say is like prioritization or whatever and he might feel bad about it [TS]

01:55:48 ◼   ► but the ones that just really drive me nuts as we're like it's a [TS]

01:55:51 ◼   ► misunderstanding like the romantic comedy level misunderstand and it's just [TS]

01:55:57 ◼   ► like listening to me you're not like it used to be able to get together and [TS]

01:56:03 ◼   ► explain this one thing like the whole rest of the movie points right and this [TS]

01:56:06 ◼   ► is like this in the App Store but is known for you to talk to you like you [TS]

01:56:09 ◼   ► you send your message in a bottle and he wait and you wait and then you wait in [TS]

01:56:12 ◼   ► this inscrutable reply comes back it's like no you can't understand me hate you [TS]

01:56:16 ◼   ► you did you even read what I wrote it like it is this an automated system is [TS]

01:56:19 ◼   ► there a human there talk to somebody somebody who is both empowered and able [TS]

01:56:24 ◼   ► to understand the language barrier like they don't you know I think the one by [TS]

01:56:28 ◼   ► copyright was like where some scammers reporting about locations that appeared [TS]

01:56:31 ◼   ► to come from a different developer and then upload flag the legitimate [TS]

01:56:34 ◼   ► developer to say they were violating the Copyright Office like whatever something [TS]

01:56:39 ◼   ► that is very frustrating I can and that is that comes down to it like in a [TS]

01:56:42 ◼   ► romantic comedy is merely a lack of communication [TS]

01:56:45 ◼   ► and how can people be doing so well and improving so much and its communication [TS]

01:56:50 ◼   ► like keeping the advantages like you said of like keeping your products [TS]

01:56:53 ◼   ► secret and not and not showing everything you even thinking of making [TS]

01:56:56 ◼   ► these people are disappointed but also being open to feedback and having a [TS]

01:57:01 ◼   ► community where human beings talk to other human beings in there is going to [TS]

01:57:04 ◼   ► green doesn't mean people outside a platonic out what to do but just to make [TS]

01:57:08 ◼   ► sure everyone's on the same page and obviously that much more advantageous [TS]

01:57:12 ◼   ► for programming language which is less of a competitive advantage for Apple [TS]

01:57:16 ◼   ► then like individual features whatever the App Store by its just so clearly a [TS]

01:57:23 ◼   ► different philosophy dictating the public face of that part of the [TS]

01:57:28 ◼   ► organization than the other and it was all one big place and travel to speak [TS]

01:57:32 ◼   ► with one voice but I just it's becoming increasingly clear where the lines are [TS]

01:57:39 ◼   ► in terms of like the new Apple that you were describing and the old apple that's [TS]

01:57:45 ◼   ► it still inside their house say that is or isn't appropriate for the individual [TS]

01:57:51 ◼   ► things just difference like what department of my talk to what is the [TS]

01:57:55 ◼   ► subject of that were that were even talking about and how then does that [TS]

01:58:00 ◼   ► will talk about it [TS]

01:58:02 ◼   ► 59 days and I guess I could take another break here and enjoying talking about [TS]

01:58:17 ◼   ► swift against the other one other thing I thought about was swift and no apples [TS]

01:58:22 ◼   ► they said this for a while but Federici said this in his talking points all week [TS]

01:58:25 ◼   ► long which is that they really really think that Swift could be like the [TS]

01:58:31 ◼   ► default go to programming language not just for their platforms in writing apps [TS]

01:58:36 ◼   ► for their platforms but just like you know high school kids who are learning [TS]

01:58:40 ◼   ► to program middle school kids are way too high school kids learning to program [TS]

01:58:44 ◼   ► computer science courses in college you know why not you know the Desi swift as [TS]

01:58:50 ◼   ► the language they could take that role which to me is I believe it really think [TS]

01:58:55 ◼   ► that they they they mean it but that's such an incredibly ambitious goal for [TS]

01:59:01 ◼   ► programming language that sounds more reasonable when you think about well [TS]

01:59:05 ◼   ► people learning with now because I can tell you see like I think most of the [TS]

01:59:11 ◼   ► time its job or JavaScript which I guess this javascript probably isn't terrible [TS]

01:59:17 ◼   ► because it's a pretty simple as you think you think writing a job job job i [TS]

01:59:23 ◼   ► think is the most common teaching language at this point some schools like [TS]

01:59:27 ◼   ► you know I think MIT still something with scheme in Lisbon all that business [TS]

01:59:30 ◼   ► but the days of them teaching see is your first program I would think are [TS]

01:59:36 ◼   ► long gone and C++ same time like what is a better teacher gets too likely if not [TS]

01:59:41 ◼   ► swift than one and if job is the answer thanks West has fewer well his [TS]

01:59:48 ◼   ► difficulty when they say that like so what's with you want the 2010 9:52 on [TS]

01:59:54 ◼   ► again it's barely setting up at this point so this is obviously a long-term [TS]

01:59:58 ◼   ► plan but once with settles down being a more modern language it's either going [TS]

02:00:04 ◼   ► to be swift or something like Python or javascript isn't even higher level [TS]

02:00:07 ◼   ► language learning languages don't need to care about performances stuff like [TS]

02:00:11 ◼   ► that so you can get away with [TS]

02:00:12 ◼   ► using that toy language but a much much higher level language that you just want [TS]

02:00:18 ◼   ► them to do with the concepts and I think the only thing that holds with back is [TS]

02:00:21 ◼   ► swift is a complicated language which has a lot of features and a lot of [TS]

02:00:27 ◼   ► features in swift I think make more sense in the context of understanding [TS]

02:00:31 ◼   ► simpler language its first list is not a simple there is out there is a lot to it [TS]

02:00:37 ◼   ► very powerful there's a lot of concepts and things and they're not details they [TS]

02:00:41 ◼   ► don't care about like memory management probably a little tiny bit of that if [TS]

02:00:44 ◼   ► you really want to get into it but they have an unsafe point yeah like they've [TS]

02:00:49 ◼   ► got the go-ahead score yourself abilities in there but that's been doin [TS]

02:00:53 ◼   ► teach that but even just the concepts of the way it handles you know all the [TS]

02:00:58 ◼   ► different prototypes in the class extensions and inheritance and window [TS]

02:01:02 ◼   ► you the classroom when do I use destructing ValueType sources reference [TS]

02:01:05 ◼   ► types and this there's a lot of things in there that aren't in much simpler [TS]

02:01:08 ◼   ► languages like back in the old days [TS]

02:01:11 ◼   ► tickle TCL you know like a logo with a little turtle turtle even something like [TS]

02:01:16 ◼   ► Python I mean I guess I guess every language has granted corners but Swift [TS]

02:01:20 ◼   ► is already a pretty full feature languages going to get even hurt with [TS]

02:01:24 ◼   ► time so that may hold back from me TGIF because in some respects a teaching [TS]

02:01:29 ◼   ► language you need to be a real language and I guess he needed excuse for your [TS]

02:01:33 ◼   ► exercises and stuff but you're not teaching them here is the programming [TS]

02:01:35 ◼   ► language again using you enter the industry like occasional school concept [TS]

02:01:39 ◼   ► which is why mit can take solace in Scheme and everything and ML or whatever [TS]

02:01:43 ◼   ► and like I don't care if you can use this we're just trying to keep you [TS]