00:00:00 ◼ ► In certain music here. Are you going to play for me. I won't give them. You think I'm not happy here. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/0">TS</a>]
00:00:04 ◼ ► Dammit man who for the first item in follow up is when we talk about Final Draft [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4">TS</a>]
00:00:13 ◼ ► and the script notes podcast Last week we got a lot of feedback on that. Also directly from the two hosts of that part. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/13">TS</a>]
00:00:21 ◼ ► And as it turns out I definitely am perhaps also Casey missing tributed to the two hosts statements which were not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/21">TS</a>]
00:00:27 ◼ ► there in particular discussing their stance on software pricing at closing the park as I was under the impression that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/27">TS</a>]
00:00:35 ◼ ► they thought that they thought software if not should be free should definitely be much lower priced [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/35">TS</a>]
00:00:41 ◼ ► and I cited an example in a podcast of them saying well of Apple's operating system is free. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/41">TS</a>]
00:00:46 ◼ ► That was not the host of the podcast that said that that was Joe Jarvis he was the product manager from Final Draft who [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/46">TS</a>]
00:00:54 ◼ ► Now I know people feel when they say they can identify our voices and never think for the first time [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/54">TS</a>]
00:00:59 ◼ ► and you know fifteen twenty minutes into it you lose track of who's speaking. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/59">TS</a>]
00:01:03 ◼ ► I didn't lose track so I think Katie said the last show and I said that a marker tried to correct us [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/63">TS</a>]
00:01:08 ◼ ► and none of us could remember for sure at the time. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/68">TS</a>]
00:01:10 ◼ ► But Mark it was right I could tell you where you are and all that exist [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/70">TS</a>]
00:01:14 ◼ ► and I was that I did I thought that was them in case I thought that was them doing you said I thought it was them [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/74">TS</a>]
00:01:18 ◼ ► but none of us had the pocket in front of it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/78">TS</a>]
00:01:20 ◼ ► And speaking of that there is actually a transcript of this pod cast which Michael put in the show notes that will give [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/80">TS</a>]
00:01:27 ◼ ► you a text version so you don't have to listen to the podcast. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/87">TS</a>]
00:01:30 ◼ ► People sometimes don't want to listen to audio and scrub to the park. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/90">TS</a>]
00:01:33 ◼ ► You can just look at the text version which is much faster to read and find the discussion of this topic. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/93">TS</a>]
00:01:37 ◼ ► So I apologize to both of those guys for making it sound like I thought all software should be free [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/97">TS</a>]
00:01:41 ◼ ► and in fact John all the cells and software are his own and so he is not just a observer of the software industry [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/101">TS</a>]
00:01:47 ◼ ► but is also a participant on the other side of the coin. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/107">TS</a>]
00:01:50 ◼ ► Yeah yeah I definitely was part of screwing that up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/110">TS</a>]
00:01:54 ◼ ► and I will say that I was completely in love with listening to that particular episode. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/114">TS</a>]
00:02:00 ◼ ► Part cast because was it is it Mark. Mad Nick is that right here. Who is the C.E.O. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/120">TS</a>]
00:02:05 ◼ ► and Co-founder final draft to my ears was straight out of New York I can tell I could tell his voice from the other [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/125">TS</a>]
00:02:13 ◼ ► and so that's what that was going to say as he was the only one I could I could without question definitely place who [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/133">TS</a>]
00:02:18 ◼ ► is to everyone else I was I was taken shopman dark you know we got a lot of feedback about like from from people who [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/138">TS</a>]
00:02:26 ◼ ► are in talk about the screenplay format and people have many alternate apps for screenplays [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/146">TS</a>]
00:02:31 ◼ ► and it looks like that ecosystem is actually pretty vibrant [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/151">TS</a>]
00:02:34 ◼ ► and seeing some new life in terms of like alternate applications and alternate formats for writing screenplays. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/154">TS</a>]
00:02:41 ◼ ► So it's actually much more lively than than it might seem if you just listen to this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/161">TS</a>]
00:02:46 ◼ ► and think everyone is stuck with final draft that the young [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/166">TS</a>]
00:02:50 ◼ ► and upcoming people are seeking adult I was photographed in those alternatives exist [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/170">TS</a>]
00:02:54 ◼ ► and in fact there's a format kind of like mark down that you can use to produce a screenplay [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/174">TS</a>]
00:03:00 ◼ ► and any application like mark down any application I get is that a text that format [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/180">TS</a>]
00:03:04 ◼ ► and you can convert from that format to the quote unquote real screenplay format so that's really opened up feel to a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/184">TS</a>]
00:03:10 ◼ ► lot of other editors which I also mentioned during lunch. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/190">TS</a>]
00:03:16 ◼ ► but I didn't know what the name was so I didn't know if you had said it like Mark Denver screenplay sort of in like may [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/196">TS</a>]
00:03:22 ◼ ► be said that this is where you can insert the clip of you saying that you had only I thought I think I'd give one [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/202">TS</a>]
00:03:29 ◼ ► sentence about mentioning this fountain format [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/209">TS</a>]
00:03:31 ◼ ► but yeah otherwise otherwise the follow up is I was right I would get someone that's not so true. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/211">TS</a>]
00:03:39 ◼ ► Don't you know there has been plenty but you were there if you had been more insistent like Kate [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/219">TS</a>]
00:03:44 ◼ ► and I both got it wrong who said that and you're like I don't think it was the other guy. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/224">TS</a>]
00:03:47 ◼ ► You weren't sure it was the other guy either. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/227">TS</a>]
00:03:49 ◼ ► Or sure enough to say no it totally was and I guess I think I did [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/229">TS</a>]
00:03:53 ◼ ► but that's OK are you going to turn back let's say you know I was just trying to give you places where you can insert [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/233">TS</a>]
00:04:03 ◼ ► The other part of it is that the Craig and John did and various times say things like and we know the price is off [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/243">TS</a>]
00:04:11 ◼ ► or is going down and things that used to cost a lot cause more [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/251">TS</a>]
00:04:13 ◼ ► but they were saying it as a sort of a offering up of the idea that they understand where the founder of guys are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/253">TS</a>]
00:04:20 ◼ ► coming from. Not that these are positions they agreed with. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/260">TS</a>]
00:04:23 ◼ ► So if you look if you read the text it is much more clear that they are trying to provide like trying to say that I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/263">TS</a>]
00:04:30 ◼ ► empathize with your situation I understand that in the software market software is apparently being devalued [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/270">TS</a>]
00:04:34 ◼ ► and then they would say but and then go on. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/274">TS</a>]
00:04:36 ◼ ► I think Craig is still closest to to walking that line in saying that he doesn't think great just oregano should be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/276">TS</a>]
00:04:43 ◼ ► but again again it gets back to the specifics of this one program that they don't like that hasn't been updated for a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/283">TS</a>]
00:04:48 ◼ ► long time and not a general statement about all software. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/288">TS</a>]
00:04:52 ◼ ► and I think that that specific complaint about retina being the thing that should have been free I don't I don't agree [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/292">TS</a>]
00:05:00 ◼ ► I agree you know if they if they want to complain that the updates in general to final draft haven't included enough [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/300">TS</a>]
00:05:07 ◼ ► new features to be worth their price that's a different story and charging for what is really a bug fix. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/307">TS</a>]
00:05:14 ◼ ► That is also a different story but retina is actually like you know supporting new hardware [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/314">TS</a>]
00:05:20 ◼ ► and that's that's not necessarily quote a bug fix [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/320">TS</a>]
00:05:23 ◼ ► and you know it's like it's like if you have to support a new version of the U.S. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/323">TS</a>]
00:05:26 ◼ ► You know you don't you don't get everybody for free if they're already really old version. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/326">TS</a>]
00:05:29 ◼ ► But you know I think it's I think this is all I think they're probably this is all tied up in the overall problem a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/329">TS</a>]
00:05:36 ◼ ► final draft being crappy and not really having any kind of development pace for a long time. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/336">TS</a>]
00:05:42 ◼ ► All right so the other bit a follow up that we have is regarding whether [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/342">TS</a>]
00:05:48 ◼ ► or not it's wise to treat warnings as errors in production code [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/348">TS</a>]
00:05:55 ◼ ► and I believe this came from the go if you feel conversations are right it was kind of a separate. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/355">TS</a>]
00:06:00 ◼ ► Actually yeah it was a separate topic but. But yes you know there is the culture of of using the W. All flag or W. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/360">TS</a>]
00:06:09 ◼ ► Everything flag or the various permutations thereof that specify the really. As for Terra carriage in C. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/369">TS</a>]
00:06:16 ◼ ► or Easier to hear because you would say. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/376">TS</a>]
00:06:19 ◼ ► And that kind of morphed into you know my my position of with my well development now I'm doing my P.H.P. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/379">TS</a>]
00:06:30 ◼ ► and notices in production even are treated as exceptions I was doing development for for the last few years [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/390">TS</a>]
00:06:36 ◼ ► but now even in production all warnings and notices are exceptions [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/396">TS</a>]
00:06:40 ◼ ► and I asked the listeners during last week's show because John John in case you guys severely disagree with that saying [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/400">TS</a>]
00:06:47 ◼ ► that in practice to paraphrase your arguments I feel if you'll prove in practice that in a production environment once [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/407">TS</a>]
00:06:55 ◼ ► you get you know beyond a one person operation that gets really tricky you might have other people deploying you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/415">TS</a>]
00:07:00 ◼ ► Updates to the server and you know breaking the site into the night [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/420">TS</a>]
00:07:04 ◼ ► and you know maybe it's not that important to break the site for some minor reason it's not worth it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/424">TS</a>]
00:07:10 ◼ ► and it's better to to keep everything up as much as you can and just log the warnings. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/430">TS</a>]
00:07:15 ◼ ► So I asked the listeners what if they worked in a big organization that it is known for having that either has a really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/435">TS</a>]
00:07:25 ◼ ► important web presence or is known for being really good at tech like Google or Amazon. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/445">TS</a>]
00:07:31 ◼ ► I asked them like you know what's your policy in your organization and you know please let me know the feedback form. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/451">TS</a>]
00:07:36 ◼ ► And boy did they go my God And I think it's pretty safe to say that not only did I lose this argument [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/456">TS</a>]
00:07:46 ◼ ► but I'm pretty sure I actually lost it unanimously. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/466">TS</a>]
00:07:51 ◼ ► or losing based on what people say a bunch of people sending feedback doesn't mean anybody want to last anywhere. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/471">TS</a>]
00:07:56 ◼ ► I've been thinking about it I think I can frame this the reason. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/476">TS</a>]
00:08:00 ◼ ► I disagree with you on the reason we had a disagreement last show as it was all about the framing of the thing it was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/480">TS</a>]
00:08:04 ◼ ► the thing I put in the show no special talk about at the end [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/484">TS</a>]
00:08:06 ◼ ► but the major framing of the topic was that in the beginning I like the topic came up in Yuma [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/486">TS</a>]
00:08:14 ◼ ► and you mention something about it and the beginning both Casey [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/494">TS</a>]
00:08:16 ◼ ► and I stipulated that there are certainly situations where it is both feasible [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/496">TS</a>]
00:08:20 ◼ ► and the right thing to do to elevate boarding stairs in production [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/500">TS</a>]
00:08:23 ◼ ► and we give example of you like you have to control everything about it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/503">TS</a>]
00:08:26 ◼ ► Your one man shop you're doing the client server side like you know you're not running a bank like you know for a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/506">TS</a>]
00:08:34 ◼ ► podcast up and you know it's like it's reasonable based and then [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/514">TS</a>]
00:08:38 ◼ ► and then you stipulated there they're institutions in which it is unfeasible to do this because of something about like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/518">TS</a>]
00:08:45 ◼ ► it's a different department that controls that are the developers are too far away from it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/525">TS</a>]
00:08:50 ◼ ► or think you know things have to be up all the time and that's the most important thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/530">TS</a>]
00:08:55 ◼ ► and used to be elated that it was some sort of ailment in the enterprise that company it's also a practical concern [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/535">TS</a>]
00:09:01 ◼ ► that you might have to do that but every time Casey [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/541">TS</a>]
00:09:04 ◼ ► and I tried to come up with a scenario where it wasn't just like something you had to do because of real world [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/544">TS</a>]
00:09:09 ◼ ► practical concerns that are such a shame [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/549">TS</a>]
00:09:11 ◼ ► but that it was actually the right decision like not because of some sickness in your organization [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/551">TS</a>]
00:09:16 ◼ ► but actually because the arrangement of things in this perfectly healthy organization are such that this is the correct [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/556">TS</a>]
00:09:21 ◼ ► move. You would say oh I don't know. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/561">TS</a>]
00:09:23 ◼ ► Basically you kept creeping towards an absolutist position him whenever we tried to cite an exception you would say I'm [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/563">TS</a>]
00:09:28 ◼ ► still not convinced so I think despite all the feedback is all the feedback you can dismiss [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/568">TS</a>]
00:09:32 ◼ ► and say well all those people belong to organizations that have some sort of sickness which most of them probably do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/572">TS</a>]
00:09:36 ◼ ► let's be honest I'm trying to organizations that have some sort of organizational sickness that requires the requires [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/576">TS</a>]
00:09:42 ◼ ► them to do this you know isn't that a shame yes I understand it's a reality in your life but it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/582">TS</a>]
00:09:45 ◼ ► but it's not really the right thing to do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/585">TS</a>]
00:09:47 ◼ ► and what I was trying to convince you of last time that I think is still the case is that there are situations where it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/587">TS</a>]
00:09:53 ◼ ► is actually the right thing to do not to elevate warnings to exceptions. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/593">TS</a>]
00:10:00 ◼ ► and the difficulty if you continue that I think has a lot to do with like us not this is kind of a tangent not sort of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/600">TS</a>]
00:10:06 ◼ ► being on the same page ahead of time as to what the heck is a warning what do you mean by a warning like we got to it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/606">TS</a>]
00:10:11 ◼ ► from like the warnings like the compiler that I was you know were talking about because that's like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/611">TS</a>]
00:10:14 ◼ ► when you're compiling the program before you've deployed it there is no you know there's a different kinds of warnings [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/614">TS</a>]
00:10:20 ◼ ► and I was trying to think of a way to like who gets to agree on what warnings are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/620">TS</a>]
00:10:25 ◼ ► but that's almost impossible to do you have to talk about specific technologies involved and where they come from [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/625">TS</a>]
00:10:29 ◼ ► and I thought of like the most extreme example is like imagine there was just a random number generator in your code in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/629">TS</a>]
00:10:35 ◼ ► point or one percent of the time on this particular line it would have made a warning [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/635">TS</a>]
00:10:38 ◼ ► and you know that to an exception in production [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/638">TS</a>]
00:10:40 ◼ ► and you'd like of course I'm not going to turn that on because I'm just signing myself up for downtime. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/640">TS</a>]
00:10:46 ◼ ► That is pretty much what exception what warnings are like in many situations in libraries that you didn't write that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/646">TS</a>]
00:10:51 ◼ ► you have no control over in languages are runtime pass through code you can emit warnings [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/651">TS</a>]
00:10:57 ◼ ► and I think in that situation that absurd situation obviously you would agree that if something randomly elevating [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/657">TS</a>]
00:11:01 ◼ ► things to exceptions now you wouldn't want to turn those [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/661">TS</a>]
00:11:04 ◼ ► and warnings about he wouldn't turn them into exceptions going into signing up for downtime [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/664">TS</a>]
00:11:08 ◼ ► and lots of other people who wrote in who belong to these organizations that have these problems that cause them not to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/668">TS</a>]
00:11:13 ◼ ► be able to do what you think is the best practice. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/673">TS</a>]
00:11:16 ◼ ► Describe why they think it was the right decision but I don't think any of them were convincing. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/676">TS</a>]
00:11:21 ◼ ► That would have convinced your should have convinced you that really is the right thing to do. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/681">TS</a>]
00:11:26 ◼ ► So I'm wondering if reading all those things were you convinced that this is actually the right thing to do to not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/686">TS</a>]
00:11:32 ◼ ► elevate them to exceptions in some situations and not just merely that it's something that poor suckers have to do. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/692">TS</a>]
00:11:38 ◼ ► Now wait before you answer that market let me jump in there's there's a couple of quotes just three quotes that I'd [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/698">TS</a>]
00:11:44 ◼ ► really really like to read really quickly that I think really kind of nail this home and I and I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/704">TS</a>]
00:11:50 ◼ ► and surprisingly I agree with everything John just said. The three quotes are from Alex tall and tall was in all caps. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/710">TS</a>]
00:11:56 ◼ ► In practice the C. Whatever C I O C E O It's a. Doesn't give a flip about anything but their own agenda. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/716">TS</a>]
00:12:02 ◼ ► In the end Marco has the correct idea. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/722">TS</a>]
00:12:04 ◼ ► But outside of small and extremely well structured organizations the practice falls apart [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/724">TS</a>]
00:12:09 ◼ ► and I think that that that that's exactly what John [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/729">TS</a>]
00:12:12 ◼ ► and I are both saying that yeah you know in certain cases all know that that the guy is an organization that has [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/732">TS</a>]
00:12:17 ◼ ► You know he's he's admitting that his organization has has problems that cause him to have to do what he knows isn't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/737">TS</a>]
00:12:22 ◼ ► the best practice because you know such a shame like that's not really what I'm saying. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/742">TS</a>]
00:12:26 ◼ ► OK but I guess the way I read that was Marco's idea is absolutely right it's just not always a political. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/746">TS</a>]
00:12:35 ◼ ► No I don't think it's idea that we railed on that's what I'm that's what I'm saying. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/755">TS</a>]
00:12:38 ◼ ► Like So here here's what I just said here is you know kind of like you going radio the feedback isn't enough so the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/758">TS</a>]
00:12:47 ◼ ► Secondly there were two different engineers from Amazon that wrote in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/767">TS</a>]
00:12:51 ◼ ► and I'm paraphrasing kind of the mutual message that that both of them said. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/771">TS</a>]
00:12:57 ◼ ► And so this is no not verbatim but they said I get why Marco says what he's saying but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/777">TS</a>]
00:13:03 ◼ ► when you deal with this kind of scale something is always broken. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/783">TS</a>]
00:13:07 ◼ ► And so in the example of Amazon there's so many moving parts that no matter what you're doing no matter what happened [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/787">TS</a>]
00:13:15 ◼ ► there was always going to be something that isn't quite right and so you kind of have to plan for that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/795">TS</a>]
00:13:20 ◼ ► and there's not a lot you can do about it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/800">TS</a>]
00:13:22 ◼ ► And then finally anonymous said we don't guarantee up time with code quality we guarantee up time by having an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/802">TS</a>]
00:13:30 ◼ ► institutional strength in reacting to problems and this is kind of getting into a different tangent [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/810">TS</a>]
00:13:35 ◼ ► but I just thought it was a very interesting point as well that even if your code has no smell to it whatsoever that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/815">TS</a>]
00:13:41 ◼ ► doesn't necessarily guarantee up time [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/821">TS</a>]
00:13:43 ◼ ► and really guaranteeing up time is more about just being able to read it react to issues that are saying those are the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/823">TS</a>]
00:13:50 ◼ ► three quotes I have so I apologize Marco or John Feel free to carry on. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/830">TS</a>]
00:13:53 ◼ ► Well before Marco has to respond I want to give what I thought was the strongest argument sort of buried in our. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/833">TS</a>]
00:14:00 ◼ ► Feedback and that that many people have offered [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/840">TS</a>]
00:14:03 ◼ ► and it gets back to kind of like going to the final draft thing with the C.E.O. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/843">TS</a>]
00:14:07 ◼ ► Found Rafa's coming up I guess and trying to make all his problems your problems [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/847">TS</a>]
00:14:11 ◼ ► and a lot of the people who are discussing the problems with their baby [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/851">TS</a>]
00:14:13 ◼ ► or evasions that that that make this unfeasible also said basically and you know more or less [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/853">TS</a>]
00:14:19 ◼ ► and even if we could do this it's essentially making your problem [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/859">TS</a>]
00:14:22 ◼ ► and your problem is basically I want to ensure that my code is morning free [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/862">TS</a>]
00:14:25 ◼ ► but I think it will produce higher quality code. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/865">TS</a>]
00:14:27 ◼ ► It's turning your problem into your customer's problem because you know once once you turn that warning fatal in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/867">TS</a>]
00:14:33 ◼ ► production you have some sort of you know avoidable downtime that causes you to you know while I'm sure we're going to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/873">TS</a>]
00:14:40 ◼ ► go fix it now because once there's downtime everyone runs around like their hair is on fire [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/880">TS</a>]
00:14:44 ◼ ► and that will make sure that we don't let human nature go through [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/884">TS</a>]
00:14:47 ◼ ► and if we merely log the errors maybe you'll just ignore them [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/887">TS</a>]
00:14:49 ◼ ► and build up in a log so this is a way to guarantee that we have code quality [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/889">TS</a>]
00:14:52 ◼ ► but the way you're guaranteeing is at the expense of your customers. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/892">TS</a>]
00:14:56 ◼ ► Someone just wrote in the chat room I was the name I think it was or was it something [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/896">TS</a>]
00:15:00 ◼ ► and it was some of those are in the chat room. Enjoy this downtime I didn't trust myself to take the warning seriously. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/900">TS</a>]
00:15:06 ◼ ► Like message to your customers and what I would say the strongest argument [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/906">TS</a>]
00:15:11 ◼ ► and in this vein is that by elevating warnings to errors in production [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/911">TS</a>]
00:15:17 ◼ ► and making your problems your customer's problems if that's the only way to ensure that you stay in warnings clean. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/917">TS</a>]
00:15:23 ◼ ► That in itself is a sign of an unhealthy organization and help the organization would have a policy to log warnings [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/923">TS</a>]
00:15:30 ◼ ► and have them addressed in a timely manner was suggested and shown a lot of people wrote in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/930">TS</a>]
00:15:33 ◼ ► and they said this was the policy so I think if this is the only way you can you can avoid the pitfalls of human nature [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/933">TS</a>]
00:15:40 ◼ ► and make yourselves address these things. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/940">TS</a>]
00:15:41 ◼ ► That's a sickness that's worse than the sickness that lets you not do that because of a lot of these people who are no [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/941">TS</a>]
00:15:48 ◼ ► relation to did seem very compensate we have a policy a warning it's logged it makes it take someone who deals in a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/948">TS</a>]
00:15:54 ◼ ► fixed amount of time and they can execute and that policies that's their stopgap against human nature or not. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/954">TS</a>]
00:16:00 ◼ ► Putting it on to their customers and causing a problem. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/960">TS</a>]
00:16:02 ◼ ► And that's why I think there are actually situations where it is the correct move not just the pragmatic one not just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/962">TS</a>]
00:16:08 ◼ ► the unfortunate I'm sad I had to do this one but actually in the correct optimal you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/968">TS</a>]
00:16:12 ◼ ► and if their butts about it policy Mostly I'm not going to argue this anymore because I've clearly been proven wrong [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/972">TS</a>]
00:16:20 ◼ ► and I can see a lot I don't understand and accept a lot of the kind arguments have been put up. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/980">TS</a>]
00:16:26 ◼ ► Just to clarify though what I'm talking about warnings in production like the kind of morning that I see on my apps are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/986">TS</a>]
00:16:34 ◼ ► usually things like my skew Well truncated value because I passed one that was too long [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/994">TS</a>]
00:16:40 ◼ ► and my application code is not validating that for lanes properly or or you know something else with my S.Q.L. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1000">TS</a>]
00:16:47 ◼ ► Like the connection was dropped in the middle of a transaction and my library didn't reconnect [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1007">TS</a>]
00:16:53 ◼ ► and those that that kind of thing that's both the kind of thing that I want to know about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1013">TS</a>]
00:16:58 ◼ ► and so I think you're right John that yes making it your customer's problem is not ideal. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1018">TS</a>]
00:17:04 ◼ ► And yes if you have the structure in place where if warning just get logged in a database somewhere [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1024">TS</a>]
00:17:10 ◼ ► and then you're required to act on them. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1030">TS</a>]
00:17:13 ◼ ► That's great and if you have that kind of discipline within the organization that's awesome [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1033">TS</a>]
00:17:18 ◼ ► but I think so many organizations don't have that. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1038">TS</a>]
00:17:22 ◼ ► In practice you know there's there's always there's like there's the bigger organizations that can have procedures like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1042">TS</a>]
00:17:30 ◼ ► but you know they usually usually bigger they are more likely to have some like that where this tends to fall apart [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1050">TS</a>]
00:17:36 ◼ ► and where this you know where a lot of software methodologies fall apart [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1056">TS</a>]
00:17:43 ◼ ► and a lot of discipline falls apart in our industry is in the small and medium sized shops [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1063">TS</a>]
00:17:47 ◼ ► and in that kind of situation where you don't have a lot of procedures in place you don't have a lot of infrastructure [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1067">TS</a>]
00:17:53 ◼ ► in place. You don't have giant different teams doing different parts of it so you know maybe you have. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1073">TS</a>]
00:18:00 ◼ ► and twenty people in your organization you know that that federalization That's a lot of times where discipline is at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1080">TS</a>]
00:18:06 ◼ ► the window and if you get a bunch of logged warnings in production you might not fix them or humanity can see them [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1086">TS</a>]
00:18:13 ◼ ► and so I do think there are a lot of a lot of situations where enforcing this in forcing it's blowing up production [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1093">TS</a>]
00:18:21 ◼ ► with warnings as a disciplinary tool to combat human failings I think there's still a place that I I will I will yield [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1101">TS</a>]
00:18:31 ◼ ► to the counter argument on this being the right idea for everybody [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1111">TS</a>]
00:18:35 ◼ ► and even for a larger organization I think the thing that's been proven that that's probably bad [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1115">TS</a>]
00:18:39 ◼ ► but I think I think you can apply this kind of rule of crashing production on everything to more than just me. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1119">TS</a>]
00:18:49 ◼ ► I think there's more of a place for it's not just you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1129">TS</a>]
00:18:52 ◼ ► but you like I stipulated there are situations where that's valid in all cases we're trying to find the correct [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1132">TS</a>]
00:18:57 ◼ ► solution is the one the plays to the strengths of the particular situation the strengths of a small shop or one [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1137">TS</a>]
00:19:03 ◼ ► or two man shop a shop working on something that doesn't matter if it's down for a little bit like a game [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1143">TS</a>]
00:19:08 ◼ ► or you know something it's not super critical that is not to say strength [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1148">TS</a>]
00:19:12 ◼ ► but like that is that the shape of that beast is that you know you can take advantage of this. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1152">TS</a>]
00:19:20 ◼ ► and doing something on essentially you can take advantage of this to make sure that you don't ignore the Vieira's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1160">TS</a>]
00:19:25 ◼ ► because you know you're you're basically you're hacking is one of the self acts like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1165">TS</a>]
00:19:29 ◼ ► when you do something to remind yourself to exercise all the time and now it's all of the life hack things or whatever. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1169">TS</a>]
00:19:34 ◼ ► But on a small scale and that makes perfect sense and then in the larger organizations they have different strengths [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1174">TS</a>]
00:19:40 ◼ ► and one of the strengths of a large organization they have the ability to have policies to be imposed on people it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1180">TS</a>]
00:19:45 ◼ ► very hard to have a policy imposed in a five or ten person company because who's going to be the big guy because [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1185">TS</a>]
00:19:50 ◼ ► when the policies are going to be your friend who sits next to you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1190">TS</a>]
00:19:52 ◼ ► and you're not going take it seriously like that's a weakness of Smorgon of the strength of a big one so you have to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1192">TS</a>]
00:19:56 ◼ ► pick the solution is appropriate for you and we think it's not. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1196">TS</a>]
00:20:00 ◼ ► Just for Marco but for other organizations where it may be possible that this may also be the best solution. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1200">TS</a>]
00:20:05 ◼ ► The tricky part and gets back to what I wrote in the show notes which is what is the nature of warnings [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1205">TS</a>]
00:20:11 ◼ ► and warnings so just like without agreeing on that it's like it's very hard to have a discussion about this because you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1211">TS</a>]
00:20:15 ◼ ► know transactional border devalue truncated like everyone would agree that I mean regardless even like you know value [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1215">TS</a>]
00:20:22 ◼ ► truncated I think that should be elevated to an exception in almost all situations [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1222">TS</a>]
00:20:26 ◼ ► but the warning about like you sure you want to use this function because a lot of times people use this function [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1226">TS</a>]
00:20:32 ◼ ► or really they mean that function and that happens at runtime because you never had that code path [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1232">TS</a>]
00:20:38 ◼ ► and your total like yes I use the write function don't want to that's why I get back to the random number generator [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1238">TS</a>]
00:20:42 ◼ ► like that's the extreme thing is like some code that you didn't write in some library that you don't control. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1242">TS</a>]
00:20:47 ◼ ► Decide they want to send you a nice friendly message depending on if it gets the you know the data value was over five [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1247">TS</a>]
00:20:53 ◼ ► and it's past three pm on a Tuesday [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1253">TS</a>]
00:20:55 ◼ ► and the system clock past the year twenty ten which at the end it decides to emit a warning like I would consider that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1255">TS</a>]
00:21:01 ◼ ► a problem if you didn't plan for that and catch it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1261">TS</a>]
00:21:04 ◼ ► but I mean like if the warning is like Are you sure you want to call this function maybe you meant another one like it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1264">TS</a>]
00:21:08 ◼ ► advisory it's guessing like you did your not that you were if you could find the person who wrote this morning you'd be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1268">TS</a>]
00:21:13 ◼ ► like Stop writing no warning like because they're human beings writing these warnings in the words they have nothing to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1273">TS</a>]
00:21:19 ◼ ► do with any kind of erroneous or unexpected situation but merely giving advice right and advice is fine. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1279">TS</a>]
00:21:26 ◼ ► In situations like you can't get back to the random number generator a lot of times warnings to me feel like they might [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1286">TS</a>]
00:21:32 ◼ ► as well have just been my code was running fine and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1292">TS</a>]
00:21:35 ◼ ► and some random number some random number generator decide I'm going to send you a friendly message right now that had [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1295">TS</a>]
00:21:40 ◼ ► nothing to do with anything that was not useful in the only reason I have to react to it is to add whatever I need to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1300">TS</a>]
00:21:44 ◼ ► make that warning go away if I can't because sometimes you can't get it to compile Libre the use that you don't control [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1304">TS</a>]
00:21:50 ◼ ► it's not acting in a way that is unexpected or wrong but then that author decided to give you advice about something [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1310">TS</a>]
00:21:56 ◼ ► and that is the worst kind of warning the worst kind of runtime. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1316">TS</a>]
00:22:00 ◼ ► Even driven warning that you don't control and that's why I think a lot of people didn't position this because [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1320">TS</a>]
00:22:04 ◼ ► when they think of warnings it's like oh it's something I have to react to and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1324">TS</a>]
00:22:08 ◼ ► when I think of warnings often think of the only reason I have to react this is to shut this person up because they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1328">TS</a>]
00:22:13 ◼ ► don't know our code or they're trying to be helpful and give advice [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1333">TS</a>]
00:22:16 ◼ ► or suggest a different way that we could do things [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1336">TS</a>]
00:22:18 ◼ ► and it's like I don't what you're suggesting now at runtime you know I need to blank that out of the logs because I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1338">TS</a>]
00:22:23 ◼ ► can't get rid of it and it's not telling me anything useful. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1343">TS</a>]
00:22:27 ◼ ► So as with most things we were discussing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1347">TS</a>]
00:22:29 ◼ ► and trying to like agree on the premise like authorities are talking about a specific technology [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1349">TS</a>]
00:22:34 ◼ ► or a specific version of something [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1354">TS</a>]
00:22:36 ◼ ► and then you kind of say here's the set of warnings that come out are we OK all of the things all two exceptions [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1356">TS</a>]
00:22:40 ◼ ► and then you have to look inside your innovation all of the stuff [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1360">TS</a>]
00:22:43 ◼ ► but if you just say warnings in general everyone's got a different picture in your head of what we're talking about. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1363">TS</a>]
00:22:48 ◼ ► All right we are sponsored this week by something pretty cool something pretty new here. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1368">TS</a>]
00:22:54 ◼ ► It's called influx and this is a music album from brave wave productions that highlights the diverse [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1374">TS</a>]
00:23:01 ◼ ► and ever changing nature of music. It's a blend of chip Tunes rock electronica and more. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1381">TS</a>]
00:23:06 ◼ ► And it features diverse musicians from around the world. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1386">TS</a>]
00:23:09 ◼ ► Brave ways music is dedicated to exploring the interplay between video games music [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1389">TS</a>]
00:23:13 ◼ ► and the style you might know them from their previous world one two albums influxes theme is collaboration between the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1393">TS</a>]
00:23:20 ◼ ► and west featuring original music from Manami might sue me to McCord of Evanescence cagey young McGee she Akira Yamaoka [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1400">TS</a>]
00:23:29 ◼ ► say Henri Kobayashi and more get in flux today on i Tunes Bandcamp [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1409">TS</a>]
00:23:34 ◼ ► or their online store at brave Wave dot net to go to break away the net for more info now rather than keep talking [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1414">TS</a>]
00:23:40 ◼ ► about this music for another ninety seconds. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1420">TS</a>]
00:23:41 ◼ ► I asked them if we could just play a couple of samples from the album and they said yes. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1421">TS</a>]
00:23:45 ◼ ► Here are some samples from influx showing off two different styles in the album there's a lot of different styles on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1425">TS</a>]
00:23:50 ◼ ► here. All right that was from influx by brief wave good a brave Wave dot net to preview more of it or buy a copy. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1430">TS</a>]
00:25:12 ◼ ► Once again that's brave Wave dot net and the new album is called influx two words. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1512">TS</a>]
00:25:18 ◼ ► Thanks a lot to brave way for sponsoring our show. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1518">TS</a>]
00:25:21 ◼ ► You know always have a soft spot in my heart for Chip tunes because it's straight out of childhood. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1521">TS</a>]
00:25:25 ◼ ► You know that's when even I cared a lot about Nintendo and things of that nature. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1525">TS</a>]
00:25:30 ◼ ► And now I'm not that into gaming but I'll still occasionally stumble upon a chiptune album like this one [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1530">TS</a>]
00:25:36 ◼ ► and just absolutely love it if for no other reason for than a stodgy factor you want to give me the bleeps in groups [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1536">TS</a>]
00:25:43 ◼ ► theme song but will accept them. Yeah. Do you want to sponsor John. I heartily endorse the bleeps and boops. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1543">TS</a>]
00:25:56 ◼ ► All right so I guess we should talk about soft mode algebra first I want to talk about. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1556">TS</a>]
00:26:00 ◼ ► Any of these new bugs that have come out or Apple by Nintendo. What else happened a lot happened this week. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1560">TS</a>]
00:26:06 ◼ ► Car Play we're not going to that they foresaw from a little car play right. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1566">TS</a>]
00:26:10 ◼ ► Car Play was interesting but we get we can do software that all of this first if we want to explode. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1570">TS</a>]
00:26:18 ◼ ► Well you know what I'll tell you what do you hear the fans for my MacPro I do not exactly where to set your new MacPro [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1578">TS</a>]
00:26:29 ◼ ► white one and God They came today. Oh my God Are you serious are you. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1589">TS</a>]
00:26:38 ◼ ► I don't even know what to say right now I am so serious you need to say something about software methodology now it now [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1598">TS</a>]
00:26:47 ◼ ► It's pretty good by the way I don't know how stop you so much all right so a long time ago. Yeah it's fantastic. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1607">TS</a>]
00:26:55 ◼ ► I posted this here here's a picture you can actually see just to prove just as proof you you waited just for just for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1615">TS</a>]
00:27:03 ◼ ► this very moment didn't you. I did. I've kept it off the Twitter all day. The government that algae. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1623">TS</a>]
00:27:13 ◼ ► I was going to say if this is the longest roll either half of me admires it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1633">TS</a>]
00:27:17 ◼ ► and half of me is about to get in the car and drive to that town in which you live in murder you. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1637">TS</a>]
00:27:25 ◼ ► and this is why I kept it up Twitter all day for you our listeners to hear Casey's genuine reaction because he really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1645">TS</a>]
00:27:31 ◼ ► didn't know that I had it and I hate you so much. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1651">TS</a>]
00:27:34 ◼ ► All right so a long time ago in a galaxy far far away on a podcast very similar to this we talked about we touched upon [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1654">TS</a>]
00:27:44 ◼ ► the idea of talking about software methodologies and what we mean by that is you know how do you write software. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1664">TS</a>]
00:27:51 ◼ ► How do you do that especially in a group atmosphere which means Marco probably doesn't do this very often anymore [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1671">TS</a>]
00:27:58 ◼ ► and hasn't done it in a long time. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1678">TS</a>]
00:28:00 ◼ ► When I haven't prepared anything specific about this so I'm just kind of going to kind of ad lib. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1680">TS</a>]
00:28:07 ◼ ► But a lot of a lot of my time my professional time has been spent pretty Actually all my professional times been spent [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1687">TS</a>]
00:28:17 ◼ ► And I found over the years that there are very very very many different ways of going about authoring software. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1697">TS</a>]
00:28:25 ◼ ► And I should say right now that if you're not the kind of person that really gives a crap about how to write code then [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1705">TS</a>]
00:28:32 ◼ ► this might be a portable to you anyway because many of these things that we're about to talk about are actually [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1712">TS</a>]
00:28:38 ◼ ► political to just about any project. And so there's a lot a couple of different. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1718">TS</a>]
00:28:44 ◼ ► Well there's many many many different ways of going about this but a couple of very very obvious ones. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1724">TS</a>]
00:28:49 ◼ ► And the way that I wrote most of my code in my career is by using a technique called waterfall which is to say you do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1729">TS</a>]
00:29:01 ◼ ► and so that means you do a lot of planning up front you do a lot of thinking up front you have a lot of meetings up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1741">TS</a>]
00:29:09 ◼ ► front and you pretty much do everything you can before you write a line of code and you do that all first [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1749">TS</a>]
00:29:16 ◼ ► and you do no code until you are ready to pretty much just thrown it in because you've specified almost everything up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1756">TS</a>]
00:29:24 ◼ ► And the alternative to that are the most obvious alternative to that with something called agile which is to say you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1764">TS</a>]
00:29:31 ◼ ► just kind of fly by the seat your pants and see what happens. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1771">TS</a>]
00:29:35 ◼ ► So it's they they're very very different and there's pluses and minuses to both. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1775">TS</a>]
00:29:42 ◼ ► But before we dig into that John what do you use in your day to day job today. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1782">TS</a>]
00:29:51 ◼ ► or methodology depending on what you think is an actual word that you could name with a proper noun with a capital [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1791">TS</a>]
00:29:59 ◼ ► letter. If we use some vocabulary from the world of agile but it's kind of pointless and there's no real. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1799">TS</a>]
00:30:09 ◼ ► We have a system and we have processes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1809">TS</a>]
00:30:11 ◼ ► but we don't have we're not we're not following any kind of methodology from a book or a paper [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1811">TS</a>]
00:30:16 ◼ ► or even within the organization of the processes that we have are mostly methodology agnostic so I would not put it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1816">TS</a>]
00:30:26 ◼ ► into any one of these had been in past jobs lived in fact never been to the company that has it here due to a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1826">TS</a>]
00:30:34 ◼ ► particular system for doing software development that I could do that I could name with a capital letter. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1834">TS</a>]
00:30:40 ◼ ► So let me instead answer that well OK I'm sorry I should ask Marco What do you do. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1840">TS</a>]
00:30:45 ◼ ► MARCO What did you guys do a tumbler. The answer to both of those is the same which is a long awkward silence. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1845">TS</a>]
00:30:57 ◼ ► All right. So so I have had the benefit and and detriment of using kind of a little bit of everything. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1857">TS</a>]
00:31:08 ◼ ► I've used agile in a strict sense of ease that on a not so strict sense of you want to form a strict sense waterfowl [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1868">TS</a>]
00:31:17 ◼ ► And what's interesting is that there's a lot it doesn't really matter what methodology you use or method [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1877">TS</a>]
00:31:25 ◼ ► or whatever that you use a lot of it falls down to the team and what the team is comfortable with. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1885">TS</a>]
00:31:31 ◼ ► And so I've had a lot of experiences where I've tried to use agile and in doing so in client work. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1891">TS</a>]
00:31:42 ◼ ► In my personal experience is going to be made or bridge broken by the client so the way I had to work. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1902">TS</a>]
00:31:48 ◼ ► And I probably was being a bit flippant earlier [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1908">TS</a>]
00:31:51 ◼ ► when I said it's all about flying by the seat your pants it's really not at all the way it works is you spend a little [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1911">TS</a>]
00:31:57 ◼ ► bit of time a front planning the next couple of weeks. Or the next sprint as it's called. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1917">TS</a>]
00:32:02 ◼ ► And so you spend that time figure out what are we going to do for next couple weeks. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1922">TS</a>]
00:32:05 ◼ ► And the way that typically works is you come up with something called user stories which is to say you know as a user [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1925">TS</a>]
00:32:13 ◼ ► of this online banking system I would like to make a deposit and somebody will [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1933">TS</a>]
00:32:18 ◼ ► or you as a team will decide how how long do we think that will take [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1938">TS</a>]
00:32:22 ◼ ► but not in terms of hours which is a typical consulting way of doing things [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1942">TS</a>]
00:32:26 ◼ ► but instead in terms of something called points and points are not arbitrary but not really defined either [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1946">TS</a>]
00:32:33 ◼ ► and so what that means is typically you'll say OK of all these user stories we agree that the positing a check is for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1953">TS</a>]
00:32:39 ◼ ► whatever reason a one point story that's very very very simple. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1959">TS</a>]
00:32:43 ◼ ► And so we will say that we will judge all of our other stories based upon the difficulty of this story this one point [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1963">TS</a>]
00:32:53 ◼ ► So in the beginning you do sprint planning [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1973">TS</a>]
00:32:56 ◼ ► and you say OK for the next two weeks we think we can cover twenty points worth of effort. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1976">TS</a>]
00:33:01 ◼ ► And so what do we think we're going to do. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1981">TS</a>]
00:33:04 ◼ ► And so what you'll figure out of these are the things that we're going to put in the current sprint [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1984">TS</a>]
00:33:11 ◼ ► and then we'll have a backlog of things we'll get to if we can. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1991">TS</a>]
00:33:15 ◼ ► And a nice box of things will get you way in the future if possible and you do your sprint usually for two weeks [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/1995">TS</a>]
00:33:21 ◼ ► but not always and you do spend for two weeks [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2001">TS</a>]
00:33:23 ◼ ► and you try to figure out you know you try to get all these things done [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2003">TS</a>]
00:33:26 ◼ ► and at the end of the Sprint you'll see OK well we didn't we didn't do as much as we wanted. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2006">TS</a>]
00:33:33 ◼ ► So actually we ended up only doing eighteen points worth of work [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2013">TS</a>]
00:33:37 ◼ ► and will consider eighteen points our vote last city for the next sprint. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2017">TS</a>]
00:33:42 ◼ ► And this is all very boring on the surface [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2022">TS</a>]
00:33:45 ◼ ► but over a couple of sprints you get to figure out what is your team's velocity [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2025">TS</a>]
00:33:51 ◼ ► and your team's velocity can get you to a position that you can actually plan how much work you're going to do in the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2031">TS</a>]
00:34:00 ◼ ► Our of Agile is when you've gotten a couple sprints under your belt and you've gotten your velocity [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2040">TS</a>]
00:34:05 ◼ ► and it's relatively repeatable and reliable. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2045">TS</a>]
00:34:08 ◼ ► And then at that point you can you can predictably figure out OK given all the work we have left to do then why how [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2048">TS</a>]
00:34:16 ◼ ► much how much how much time will it take. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2056">TS</a>]
00:34:18 ◼ ► And so I've done agile several times all but one of the times it failed spectacularly. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2058">TS</a>]
00:34:27 ◼ ► And the reason they're Well there are many reasons to fail spectacularly [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2067">TS</a>]
00:34:31 ◼ ► but in my personal experience the reason the most obvious in hugest reason that a fail spectacularly is because our [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2071">TS</a>]
00:34:39 ◼ ► client didn't really get it. Which probably falls down to us not really explaining agile properly to to our client. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2079">TS</a>]
00:34:49 ◼ ► But the one time it worked well our client really got into it and really understood OK P's point. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2089">TS</a>]
00:34:55 ◼ ► Things don't really translate to hours and if you don't they don't really translate directly to anything specific. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2095">TS</a>]
00:35:04 ◼ ► But these points are kind of like currency. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2104">TS</a>]
00:35:08 ◼ ► And if I decide out of the blue that I really want some new feature [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2108">TS</a>]
00:35:15 ◼ ► and if I ask the team are right how long do you think this will take and they say well it's going to be three points. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2115">TS</a>]
00:35:21 ◼ ► I know as the as the product owner I know was the client as a product owner that I'm going to need to take away three [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2121">TS</a>]
00:35:30 ◼ ► points worth of effort if I want to shimmy in these new three points that I've just come up with. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2130">TS</a>]
00:35:36 ◼ ► And when it got to the point that we and the client both understood that points are currency [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2136">TS</a>]
00:35:43 ◼ ► and really had faith in the system it worked on believably well. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2143">TS</a>]
00:35:49 ◼ ► But generally speaking out of that happens instead what you end up with is from a fall which is you do a bunch of work [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2149">TS</a>]
00:35:55 ◼ ► up front have stand ups every day say you're working in agile and none of it works since complete. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2155">TS</a>]
00:36:00 ◼ ► That's basically are just about the sounds awful. This is this what working with other people is like. Which part. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2160">TS</a>]
00:36:07 ◼ ► I'm I am asking honestly which part sounds awful all of it to the point it sounds condescending the points I mean [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2167">TS</a>]
00:36:15 ◼ ► I mean it's like I said it just sounds and I mean there's been so much said and written and experimented with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2175">TS</a>]
00:36:23 ◼ ► and tested over the years about how to organize [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2183">TS</a>]
00:36:26 ◼ ► and manage anger nearing tasks like this sorry programming task start of the real engineers out there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2186">TS</a>]
00:36:34 ◼ ► and most of these systems boil down to the ways that are easily exploited for laziness or personal gain or and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2194">TS</a>]
00:36:46 ◼ ► or ways that are just very obvious gated and potentially condescending [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2206">TS</a>]
00:36:51 ◼ ► or infantilizing And I think I would have a hard time with some of this like vandalizing it just having a boss I know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2211">TS</a>]
00:36:59 ◼ ► it sounds the same from your perspective. I have someone else tell me what to do I'm not a baby yet. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2219">TS</a>]
00:37:07 ◼ ► So what good is there a specific thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2227">TS</a>]
00:37:09 ◼ ► or things that you take issue with because your reaction to be honest is not unreasonable is especially knowing the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2229">TS</a>]
00:37:16 ◼ ► frame of mind you're coming from. It's hard to explain. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2236">TS</a>]
00:37:20 ◼ ► I think just the whole the whole setup sounds like it sounds like a lot of people need something to do with their jobs [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2240">TS</a>]
00:37:29 ◼ ► who aren't necessarily programming all day whether their managers or whatever you want to call them [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2249">TS</a>]
00:37:38 ◼ ► Good managers are very very helpful but there's a lot of managers out there who aren't good at hand. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2258">TS</a>]
00:37:45 ◼ ► And so much of this stuff sounds like the creation of mediocre managers trying to occupy their time [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2265">TS</a>]
00:37:53 ◼ ► and prove themselves a worthwhile by coming up with some kind of system some kind of you know procedures and. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2273">TS</a>]
00:38:00 ◼ ► And frameworks and abstractions over people doing work and the the process of building software [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2280">TS</a>]
00:38:07 ◼ ► and it may be one of the reasons why these things often fall apart [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2287">TS</a>]
00:38:11 ◼ ► or don't work very well is because like you just said OK well this feature if you set a night in ideal case you can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2291">TS</a>]
00:38:18 ◼ ► take the points of people part of it and you can say OK well this feature will cost three points. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2298">TS</a>]
00:38:22 ◼ ► That's just that's all it is estimating time right. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2302">TS</a>]
00:38:24 ◼ ► And we're always our entire industry is myself included is horrendous at estimating time. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2304">TS</a>]
00:38:29 ◼ ► And so like is it really any different to say oh that'll take two weeks or they'll take you know thirty man hours [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2309">TS</a>]
00:38:36 ◼ ► and are any of them even accurate. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2316">TS</a>]
00:38:38 ◼ ► It's not really estimating time is as much as it is estimating difficulty and that's the key difference [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2318">TS</a>]
00:38:43 ◼ ► and if I were you I'd be kind of sucking air through my teeth and being like What is there really a difference there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2323">TS</a>]
00:38:48 ◼ ► but there is because you're saying relative to other things. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2328">TS</a>]
00:38:53 ◼ ► This is either a little bit more difficult or a whole lot more difficult. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2333">TS</a>]
00:38:58 ◼ ► And so a one point story we all agree as a team including Q.A. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2338">TS</a>]
00:39:03 ◼ ► Including everyone we all agree is a team this is not very hard where as an eight point story [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2343">TS</a>]
00:39:08 ◼ ► and usually use of technology sequence so what is it one two three five eight sum like that you know there's a point [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2348">TS</a>]
00:39:14 ◼ ► story is many orders of magnitude more difficult than that then that other one point story. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2354">TS</a>]
00:39:21 ◼ ► And so it's less about estimating time and then it is difficulty in the theory as you take time out of the equation [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2361">TS</a>]
00:39:27 ◼ ► and that's what that velocity is all about because over a couple of friends you realize OK we bit off forty points [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2367">TS</a>]
00:39:33 ◼ ► worth of work but holy crap we only did twenty. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2373">TS</a>]
00:39:37 ◼ ► So realistically we shouldn't sign up for forty points anymore Sprint's we should sign up for twenty [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2377">TS</a>]
00:39:43 ◼ ► and over time things become a lot more predictable [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2383">TS</a>]
00:39:47 ◼ ► and the other thing that you said which if Which makes perfect sense [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2387">TS</a>]
00:39:50 ◼ ► but I think I'm doing a pretty crummy job explaining scrum [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2390">TS</a>]
00:39:53 ◼ ► and agile is that all it's all about giving manager something to do or not all about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2393">TS</a>]
00:39:58 ◼ ► but in part about giving managers some. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2398">TS</a>]
00:40:00 ◼ ► and in fact it actually to some degree neuters the traditional product project manager in that you're no longer [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2400">TS</a>]
00:40:08 ◼ ► beholden to a Gantt chart which is possibly the most evil thing ever created and instead the whole idea of scrum [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2408">TS</a>]
00:40:16 ◼ ► and agile is the team is the one in power and if there is a pride project manager their job in life is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2416">TS</a>]
00:40:25 ◼ ► and to be honest it is what I think it should be which is to get obstacles out of the way [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2425">TS</a>]
00:40:31 ◼ ► and the best products project managers I've ever ever ever worked with do two things. Well three things actually. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2431">TS</a>]
00:40:37 ◼ ► Number one they get obstacles out of the way. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2437">TS</a>]
00:40:41 ◼ ► Number two they advocate on behalf of the client to our team so they are the client's representative. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2441">TS</a>]
00:40:49 ◼ ► Whenever the client isn't around and sometimes even when the client is around [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2449">TS</a>]
00:40:53 ◼ ► and number three they advocate on behalf of us to the client. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2453">TS</a>]
00:40:58 ◼ ► So if the client is like Dude you guys gotta be able to do more than twenty points in the sprint really I mean come on. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2458">TS</a>]
00:41:05 ◼ ► It's a product and project managers job to kind of step in and say well know whether [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2465">TS</a>]
00:41:09 ◼ ► or not you think it's difficult the fact the matter is history shows us data shows us that we can only do twenty points [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2469">TS</a>]
00:41:16 ◼ ► a sprint. So this one is going to have to be and to think anything else would just be impractical and irresponsible. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2476">TS</a>]
00:41:24 ◼ ► It totally does but I like what what bothers me about systems like this is I look at this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2484">TS</a>]
00:41:29 ◼ ► and I say well why do you call them points. Why does it have to be this concept of this of this currency or this this. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2489">TS</a>]
00:41:34 ◼ ► Like why does it have to be another level of indirection [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2494">TS</a>]
00:41:36 ◼ ► or an abstraction above what it really is which is people working you know man hours. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2496">TS</a>]
00:41:41 ◼ ► It's you know that's like why this this to me sounds a lot like the culture of Java and which has infected P.H.P. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2501">TS</a>]
00:41:50 ◼ ► As well of like making tons and tons of deep class hierarchies and class and upper classes inheriting from classes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2510">TS</a>]
00:41:56 ◼ ► and factories an abstract factory and all this crap. And when you're really trying to do some. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2516">TS</a>]
00:42:00 ◼ ► It's a lot simpler than that it doesn't need all of that and so when I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2520">TS</a>]
00:42:05 ◼ ► when I look at some of these things like it's it's easy for me to to get turned off by it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2525">TS</a>]
00:42:10 ◼ ► and honestly there's probably tons of value here that I'm not seeing because I'm an idiot in this regard I've never I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2530">TS</a>]
00:42:17 ◼ ► am completely inexperienced in following any kind of from methodology in in all my programming jobs even when [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2537">TS</a>]
00:42:23 ◼ ► when I work with the people we never fall in the methodologies closely we would you know we would kind of like what [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2543">TS</a>]
00:42:29 ◼ ► John said earlier we'd like borrow occasional things and Michael will try a few weeks with this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2549">TS</a>]
00:42:33 ◼ ► or try couple of months with this and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2553">TS</a>]
00:42:35 ◼ ► and it would never stick so I don't know I don't know what I'm talking about in this area so that in mind I mean [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2555">TS</a>]
00:42:40 ◼ ► normally I don't know I'm talking about with a lot of things [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2560">TS</a>]
00:42:42 ◼ ► but this time I'm actually admitting it so that should mean something. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2562">TS</a>]
00:42:46 ◼ ► You know what your your questions are completely reasonable [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2566">TS</a>]
00:42:49 ◼ ► and so to answer one of them you know why points why that level of indirection Why not just speak in ours [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2569">TS</a>]
00:42:55 ◼ ► and it's because of exactly what you said which is that the developers are unbelievably indescribably bad at coming up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2575">TS</a>]
00:43:03 ◼ ► and so the whole idea of points is like I was saying earlier it's an order of magnitude of difficulty [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2583">TS</a>]
00:43:08 ◼ ► and you can kind of construe how many hours a point will be after a few sprints [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2588">TS</a>]
00:43:14 ◼ ► when you say OK well Sprint is two weeks. Casey has done ten points worth of work every two weeks. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2594">TS</a>]
00:43:20 ◼ ► So that's about five points a week. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2600">TS</a>]
00:43:22 ◼ ► So you know you can you can extrapolate that out to figure out what ours is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2602">TS</a>]
00:43:26 ◼ ► but the idea is to take away any sort of measure of time and just argue about difficulty and track difficulty. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2606">TS</a>]
00:43:36 ◼ ► So that time kind of falls out of that equation. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2616">TS</a>]
00:43:40 ◼ ► I'm not sure I'm doing a great job describing it there's a lot of reasons why that will not at all it is B.S. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2620">TS</a>]
00:43:45 ◼ ► And I think I have my own cynical take on hung on agile and other matters as well [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2625">TS</a>]
00:43:51 ◼ ► but I want to get to a link that someone put into the chat room whose name I will get this time because I froze my [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2631">TS</a>]
00:43:55 ◼ ► scroll back. Wonder Matt put in the link the thing that I wanted to mention which. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2635">TS</a>]
00:44:00 ◼ ► and maybe another uses the Greek software company introduced this thing as part of a product as part of I guess a click [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2640">TS</a>]
00:44:10 ◼ ► But scheduling it was Bugs a while ago I think it was for some five or something it was a while ago. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2650">TS</a>]
00:44:16 ◼ ► Yeah and it's a similar take on this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2656">TS</a>]
00:44:19 ◼ ► but it's like it's even more kind of data driven in that on an individual developer basis they asked that individual [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2659">TS</a>]
00:44:24 ◼ ► developer to estimate how long something will take [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2664">TS</a>]
00:44:26 ◼ ► and you basically each individual developer gets a sort of a reputation within the system of how could they heard about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2666">TS</a>]
00:44:32 ◼ ► estimating how long things are going to take for them to do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2672">TS</a>]
00:44:35 ◼ ► and it is an easy weakness to pick out of an adult system that uses points in the way Casey described. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2675">TS</a>]
00:44:40 ◼ ► It's that programmers aren't interchangeable parts [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2680">TS</a>]
00:44:43 ◼ ► and you're you're crappiness at estimating difficulty of a tester in one sprint probably has very little bearing on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2683">TS</a>]
00:44:49 ◼ ► your crappiness of estimating the difficulty of an entirely other task another sprint so you may think the entire team [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2689">TS</a>]
00:44:56 ◼ ► and really Person A has a capacity of fifty points on its own if you're doing a feature that involves like O.C.R. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2696">TS</a>]
00:45:02 ◼ ► but If you're doing a feature that involves pull down menus. His point about that is much lower. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2702">TS</a>]
00:45:07 ◼ ► But he's able to estimate both of them really well so you think you'll be able to oh we should be able to you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2707">TS</a>]
00:45:12 ◼ ► figure out exactly how many points we have but the points vary wildly. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2712">TS</a>]
00:45:16 ◼ ► Being able to estimate the difficulty who you estimate for difficulty for the team difficulty for you who is assigned [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2716">TS</a>]
00:45:23 ◼ ► That's why a lot of these things fall down [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2723">TS</a>]
00:45:25 ◼ ► and evidence based cajoling is trying to say what can we do to take the human element out of the equation [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2725">TS</a>]
00:45:31 ◼ ► and say Let everybody Lyall every really crappy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2731">TS</a>]
00:45:34 ◼ ► but even then you don't have like OK they were crappy about estimating for this type of thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2734">TS</a>]
00:45:38 ◼ ► but what about that everything maybe they're better estimating then you're hoping it's going to home in on some kind of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2738">TS</a>]
00:45:42 ◼ ► average but I have a feeling that unless you find yourself doing the same kind of task over [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2742">TS</a>]
00:45:46 ◼ ► and over again which would be super boring [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2746">TS</a>]
00:45:47 ◼ ► and most good programmers don't want to do it'll be difficult to get something really predictable out of that system [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2747">TS</a>]
00:45:55 ◼ ► right so Marco do you want to tell us about something else that's really excellent and then John I'd like you to. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2755">TS</a>]
00:46:00 ◼ ► Part all of the arguments are just because of that sure thing. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2760">TS</a>]
00:46:03 ◼ ► We're also sponsored this week by our friends attending once again. KING Is mobile that makes sense. There are no B.S. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2763">TS</a>]
00:46:10 ◼ ► Simple to use mobile service provider from the people to cows the company behind hover good or special U.R.L. A.T.P. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2770">TS</a>]
00:46:17 ◼ ► Dot King dot com to learn more. They have great rates and there's no contract and no early termination fees. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2777">TS</a>]
00:46:25 ◼ ► You own your device out right and then they have a pay for what you use pricing model. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2785">TS</a>]
00:46:29 ◼ ► So here's what you do you pay a base price of six bucks per month per device [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2789">TS</a>]
00:46:33 ◼ ► and then whatever you use on top of that in minutes texts [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2793">TS</a>]
00:46:37 ◼ ► and data they will just Bill you whatever cheapest bucket they have that fits that number so for instance if you use [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2797">TS</a>]
00:46:44 ◼ ► one hundred megs of data this month and a gig next month [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2804">TS</a>]
00:46:47 ◼ ► and the next one after that you've gotten back to like you know two hundred megs each month you'll pay a different [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2807">TS</a>]
00:46:51 ◼ ► price just whatever you use to pay for that so you don't need to guess what you'll need an advance you don't need to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2811">TS</a>]
00:46:57 ◼ ► like raise your data cap before you want to be trippin and lower when you get back [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2817">TS</a>]
00:47:00 ◼ ► and of course you'll forget until you have two more months of paying a higher rate that you don't even use. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2820">TS</a>]
00:47:05 ◼ ► You could pay for the use they believe for the cheapest bucket the fit and that's it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2825">TS</a>]
00:47:10 ◼ ► They even have new lower prices if you if you check them out in the past check them out again because they even just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2830">TS</a>]
00:47:15 ◼ ► lowered their rates so for instance two gigs of data is just twenty nine dollars five hundred megs in just twelve [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2835">TS</a>]
00:47:22 ◼ ► dollars or so to see how much you can save a thing. Go to A.T.P. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2842">TS</a>]
00:47:27 ◼ ► and check out the savings calculator you can enter in your last few bills of whatever your actual usage was from your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2847">TS</a>]
00:47:33 ◼ ► existing phone carrier and it will show you how much change will save you on average and over time [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2853">TS</a>]
00:47:39 ◼ ► and if you're stuck in a contract with someone else [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2859">TS</a>]
00:47:43 ◼ ► and if you if you if you supposed to pay no if your nation fee to yourself to Tang. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2863">TS</a>]
00:47:48 ◼ ► They will actually give you twenty five percent of it back in service credit up to seventy five dollars. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2868">TS</a>]
00:47:55 ◼ ► So like coveting has great customer support there's a no hold no wait phone number you can. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2875">TS</a>]
00:48:00 ◼ ► All them up any time during the business day and a human being. Picks the phone. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2880">TS</a>]
00:48:05 ◼ ► Who is right there waiting to help you. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2885">TS</a>]
00:48:07 ◼ ► It's a really great system great customer support [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2887">TS</a>]
00:48:11 ◼ ► and you know we can think of various ways you can use it you can look at if you're a developer you want some test [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2891">TS</a>]
00:48:15 ◼ ► devices that you know you want to be activated on cell network if you don't want to pay a lot of money [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2895">TS</a>]
00:48:21 ◼ ► and you're tired of paying a really high phone bill for a lot of capabilities are not really using. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2901">TS</a>]
00:48:27 ◼ ► Ducting dot com they're compatible with any sprint phone because there are sprint and the ENO here in the U.S. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2907">TS</a>]
00:48:33 ◼ ► And if you have a Sprint phone bring it over if it's compatible. Go to their site to see the list. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2913">TS</a>]
00:48:38 ◼ ► They also will sell you a new or used phone for pretty great prices so check it out. A.T.P. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2918">TS</a>]
00:48:43 ◼ ► Ducting dot com Thanks a lot for sponsoring the show once again. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2923">TS</a>]
00:48:48 ◼ ► They should have a song with peeps and groups with a name like Tang. Or just bells. That's true too on the nose. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2928">TS</a>]
00:48:58 ◼ ► So really quickly before John destroys all of the points I just made a friend of the show David Smith said earlier in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2938">TS</a>]
00:49:03 ◼ ► the chat and I'm quoting from Slash addles purpose is to attempt to try and extract a consistent [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2943">TS</a>]
00:49:09 ◼ ► or predictable performance out of an uncontrollable situation. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2949">TS</a>]
00:49:13 ◼ ► but it is no replacement for talented motivated developers who can get things done in Anita Vironment methodology to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2953">TS</a>]
00:49:19 ◼ ► help reduce the impact of individual talents on the overall outcome and I think that that really makes a lot of sense. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2959">TS</a>]
00:49:24 ◼ ► And I completely agree with that. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2964">TS</a>]
00:49:26 ◼ ► But with that said John Jeremy apart now it's not you it's like the it's the overall concept of having a particular [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2966">TS</a>]
00:49:35 ◼ ► method by which you develop software like the reason Marco has a sort of is a reaction against that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2975">TS</a>]
00:49:43 ◼ ► when they're in the type of environment is that if you spend any time programming you whether on your own [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2983">TS</a>]
00:49:48 ◼ ► or in even just a small group just one [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2988">TS</a>]
00:49:50 ◼ ► or two other people especially in small groups where you kind of like get a feel like this is what it's like to make [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2990">TS</a>]
00:49:55 ◼ ► software this is you know this is what the experience is like here. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/2995">TS</a>]
00:50:00 ◼ ► I learned that you learn kind of what works [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3000">TS</a>]
00:50:04 ◼ ► and what doesn't in terms of getting the job done independent of any schedules and stuff like that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3004">TS</a>]
00:50:11 ◼ ► and what works is having a bunch of talented people who are motivated [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3011">TS</a>]
00:50:15 ◼ ► and excited about the thing that they're doing right. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3015">TS</a>]
00:50:17 ◼ ► And so all these methodology is in some respects are attempts usually good hearted [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3017">TS</a>]
00:50:23 ◼ ► and sometimes vaguely effective attempts to take for example mediocre programmers [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3023">TS</a>]
00:50:28 ◼ ► and making them into great programmers or to take great programmers who don't care about something [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3028">TS</a>]
00:50:32 ◼ ► and make them care about everyone wants like what we want is what happens [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3032">TS</a>]
00:50:36 ◼ ► when you get a bunch of talented people working on the same product who are good at their jobs who are excited about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3036">TS</a>]
00:50:42 ◼ ► what they're going to do and large companies say well we can't do that because we're too big [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3042">TS</a>]
00:50:47 ◼ ► and people are excited about our stuff and it's hard to get that many people who are talented [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3047">TS</a>]
00:50:51 ◼ ► or even if you could get a many people who are Tampa they don't get along with each other [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3051">TS</a>]
00:50:53 ◼ ► and they can have group so we need some sort of method to arrange all of this so that we so that we get some sort of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3053">TS</a>]
00:51:00 ◼ ► somewhat predictable performance out about what we've got what we've got is maybe we'll get really talented people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3060">TS</a>]
00:51:05 ◼ ► we've got not so down to people maybe we got people who are excited and people are excited. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3065">TS</a>]
00:51:08 ◼ ► People disagree about how things are going to go [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3068">TS</a>]
00:51:10 ◼ ► and we have a whole bunch of people telling them what to do so they don't even get to decide which direction the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3070">TS</a>]
00:51:13 ◼ ► product goes in and they have we want them to do that in a consistent manner [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3073">TS</a>]
00:51:16 ◼ ► and so if you're in this environment you're like you start to feel if you does not this alone [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3076">TS</a>]
00:51:22 ◼ ► and got rid of Dave who stinks like and then we would get this thing done [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3082">TS</a>]
00:51:26 ◼ ► but instead we have to go through these stupid steps of this methodology in these user stories in these meetings [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3086">TS</a>]
00:51:31 ◼ ► and these points in the going through those Nothing it was like look I'm a software developer I know what made you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3091">TS</a>]
00:51:36 ◼ ► think they are good software it just put me in charge of the world and I'll tell everyone exactly what to do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3096">TS</a>]
00:51:40 ◼ ► and just me my three friends would like everyone to get back to that thing whereas if you want a couple friends in a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3100">TS</a>]
00:51:44 ◼ ► room working on your program which which is how lots of great software is made [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3104">TS</a>]
00:51:48 ◼ ► and all this methodology stuff seems like it's pointless busy work and doesn't actually make anything better [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3108">TS</a>]
00:51:54 ◼ ► and I think a lot of times it is pointless busywork doesn't make it any better [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3114">TS</a>]
00:51:56 ◼ ► and the only thing that it makes better is that as people point to. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3116">TS</a>]
00:52:00 ◼ ► Chat Room people higher up on the org chart can point to well we've been following this methodology [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3120">TS</a>]
00:52:05 ◼ ► and it has predictable results and look at our things to say we have we know how many points [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3125">TS</a>]
00:52:09 ◼ ► and our velocity involved was so kind of like covering your ass that so you're not going to get fired because what we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3129">TS</a>]
00:52:13 ◼ ► have a methodology in this is what we do. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3133">TS</a>]
00:52:15 ◼ ► But in effect everyone in that organization might feel like the stupid methodology is making us less efficient less [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3135">TS</a>]
00:52:22 ◼ ► happy making us do worse work than we would if we just again Fire Dave because it stinks [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3142">TS</a>]
00:52:26 ◼ ► and we have got three of us go off for a week [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3146">TS</a>]
00:52:29 ◼ ► and it will solve your freaking But like that's how programmers feel like the cowboy coder like to stand aside I know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3149">TS</a>]
00:52:34 ◼ ► Like that's the tension between the sort of feeling that any experienced programmer has that if you just let us do what [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3154">TS</a>]
00:52:41 ◼ ► we need to do we could get it done you know and the reality that if you're on a large project you can't do that. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3161">TS</a>]
00:52:49 ◼ ► This is where this tension is and some people are trying to apply a methodology to to make order out of this chaos [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3169">TS</a>]
00:52:54 ◼ ► and the people who are contributing to the chaos always feel like anything you impose on me is making things worse [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3174">TS</a>]
00:53:00 ◼ ► and they get grumpy about it and so some people look at religion and say oh I'm going to get into this process [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3180">TS</a>]
00:53:05 ◼ ► and it's predictable like bottom line is you know a large organization is ever going to achieve the ideal of a handful [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3185">TS</a>]
00:53:12 ◼ ► of talented like minded people communicating well and even like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3192">TS</a>]
00:53:16 ◼ ► and that article open the show it's like of why software mythologies don't work even if the ideals like all of us focus [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3196">TS</a>]
00:53:21 ◼ ► on communication to make sure we have personalities [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3201">TS</a>]
00:53:22 ◼ ► but to get like those solutions are not scalable to organizations of hundreds of people like him no no way for people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3202">TS</a>]
00:53:31 ◼ ► and you know at at peak performance is scalable to hundreds of people because inevitably personality conflicts is going [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3211">TS</a>]
00:53:36 ◼ ► to be disagreements and that's why you inevitably have to fall back to some kind of method. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3216">TS</a>]
00:53:40 ◼ ► Now for things that are regularize which isn't point out a million times like building a road or building bridges [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3220">TS</a>]
00:53:46 ◼ ► or things people have been doing for hundreds of years that are very simple you know very much success [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3226">TS</a>]
00:53:52 ◼ ► and failure was the need to be spent over the course water needs carry this much weight a need to the stand these [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3232">TS</a>]
00:53:56 ◼ ► conditions need to last this long. We've done this twenty times before. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3236">TS</a>]
00:54:00 ◼ ► Our We know exactly the steps that are required to take still things can get screwed up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3240">TS</a>]
00:54:02 ◼ ► and we can try new methods they might mess up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3242">TS</a>]
00:54:04 ◼ ► but in general it is way easier than even the simplest software product where no one has made a specific thing before [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3244">TS</a>]
00:54:09 ◼ ► with the specific requirements people don't even know what the requirements are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3249">TS</a>]
00:54:12 ◼ ► and they're going to change a million times like software is so much more complicated than pretty much anything else [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3252">TS</a>]
00:54:17 ◼ ► humans do except maybe parenting impossible to predict you know what's required to go into it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3257">TS</a>]
00:54:24 ◼ ► and so we're willing to accept essentially a massive reduction in peak performance just for some Grassman like can we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3264">TS</a>]
00:54:31 ◼ ► get some predictability of that even if it means that are you know they're working slower like that's part [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3271">TS</a>]
00:54:38 ◼ ► and once you get a certain size in a public company like I don't care how much crappier it makes us as long as we're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3278">TS</a>]
00:54:43 ◼ ► still still able to stay in business I want everyone to follow whatever methodology A.B.C. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3283">TS</a>]
00:54:48 ◼ ► India whatever processes even if I know that this is going to send the best programmers out of the company because they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3288">TS</a>]
00:54:53 ◼ ► don't want to work for us anymore [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3293">TS</a>]
00:54:55 ◼ ► and we're not going to get the peak performance that we were just better than the unpredictable cast because if you're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3295">TS</a>]
00:55:00 ◼ ► but you're one of the people in charge you could very quickly feel like you're nobody's in charge nobody's at the wheel [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3300">TS</a>]
00:55:05 ◼ ► you're does up there and you just like Whisper down to the person [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3305">TS</a>]
00:55:08 ◼ ► and say well hey guys you think you could make a program do this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3308">TS</a>]
00:55:12 ◼ ► and then you just wait to hear reply with your fingers crossed like that's not a way to run an organization so these [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3312">TS</a>]
00:55:17 ◼ ► rules always have to apply but they're always going to feel like they're making things work [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3317">TS</a>]
00:55:21 ◼ ► and in many respects they're there wishful thinking that you are going to somehow convert the correct process to turn [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3321">TS</a>]
00:55:27 ◼ ► this huge team of people into the equivalent of seventeen rooms full of five people who are really motivated. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3327">TS</a>]
00:55:35 ◼ ► You know the funny thing about everything you're saying is and this was pointed out to me on Twitter by Chris each [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3335">TS</a>]
00:55:42 ◼ ► and he's right is that the origin of agile. Why do you try to get away from oversight by management. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3342">TS</a>]
00:55:54 ◼ ► and agile is that you self manage as a team the team is self-governing you establish a team norms. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3354">TS</a>]
00:56:00 ◼ ► So you know we're always going to be on time to meetings which never actually happens. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3360">TS</a>]
00:56:03 ◼ ► We're always going to pay attention during meetings which never actually happens. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3363">TS</a>]
00:56:07 ◼ ► And you're trying to get everyone to get along in agreement like that's you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3367">TS</a>]
00:56:11 ◼ ► but you can't do that like that's not how that's not how human human relations work. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3371">TS</a>]
00:56:15 ◼ ► Like if we just all agree they will be friendly and motivated [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3375">TS</a>]
00:56:18 ◼ ► and work well together then we will not follow works like you can't from. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3378">TS</a>]
00:56:24 ◼ ► It's like coming from the outside and saying it would be nice if all the interaction with other groups were this way [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3384">TS</a>]
00:56:31 ◼ ► and then if you say that to each other that doesn't make it so. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3391">TS</a>]
00:56:33 ◼ ► Like these two people still hate each other always going to these two people disagree strongly about this technical [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3393">TS</a>]
00:56:38 ◼ ► issue there you know telling them that they shouldn't disagree is not going to work like it's kind of like shifting the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3398">TS</a>]
00:56:45 ◼ ► things around on the table like OK well we don't want people who are programmers telling us on sure if we just let all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3405">TS</a>]
00:56:50 ◼ ► the programmer sort out they'll do fine no you just move those those dynamics to a different group of people a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3410">TS</a>]
00:56:54 ◼ ► different even more passive aggressive group of people. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3414">TS</a>]
00:56:59 ◼ ► So I take it John that you've never been in a situation wherein you feel like the math improved the product processes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3419">TS</a>]
00:57:09 ◼ ► sometimes improve the product and I like that for large organizations you have to have processes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3429">TS</a>]
00:57:14 ◼ ► and you have to have methods because if you don't it's just wildly unpredictable [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3434">TS</a>]
00:57:19 ◼ ► and depending specially with your mix of people like the herd is like if you have a bunch of great programmers [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3439">TS</a>]
00:57:26 ◼ ► or the one your be awesomely successful if you have a bunch of mediocre programmers you need to apply you know process [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3446">TS</a>]
00:57:32 ◼ ► the methodology and if you have a bunch of crappy programmers you need massive methodology application to them. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3452">TS</a>]
00:57:38 ◼ ► And then in the end of it all those situations you end up with a product of similar quality what I don't know if I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3458">TS</a>]
00:57:43 ◼ ► believe that and I don't know which one of those things is better [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3463">TS</a>]
00:57:46 ◼ ► but most most companies are a mix of those type of things and it's just there. I don't think there's any avoiding. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3466">TS</a>]
00:57:54 ◼ ► and unpredictable software I don't think there's any avoiding that dynamic that small groups of folks really smart [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3474">TS</a>]
00:58:00 ◼ ► In short periods of times things that larger groups of less motivated less experienced less talented people can never [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3480">TS</a>]
00:58:07 ◼ ► do like is not like OK we'll take these five people in the room a year to do this but if I have three hundred people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3487">TS</a>]
00:58:12 ◼ ► and three years I know you will never equal them with three hundred people if you don't have the right five for example. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3492">TS</a>]
00:58:18 ◼ ► It's because it's not a predictable thing because it's not something you can systematize some of the chairman saying oh [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3498">TS</a>]
00:58:23 ◼ ► c'mon there's plenty of things that are more complex than software. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3503">TS</a>]
00:58:26 ◼ ► Plain natural things not not plenty of manmade things like I would say some forty seven I mean the consequences of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3506">TS</a>]
00:58:32 ◼ ► errors and forty seven are much greater but software is much more complicated the consequences easily stupid [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3512">TS</a>]
00:58:37 ◼ ► and pointless and nobody cares which is why we get away with this. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3517">TS</a>]
00:58:41 ◼ ► Software is insanely complex in terms of you know what. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3521">TS</a>]
00:58:45 ◼ ► What number of states can can this thing be end [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3525">TS</a>]
00:58:48 ◼ ► and how how many transitions from one state to another going to go through the friggin halting problem we can't even [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3528">TS</a>]
00:58:53 ◼ ► reason make basic reasons about arbitrary programs that you're going to consider it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3533">TS</a>]
00:58:59 ◼ ► Programming is is different by nature than most things that people do it just so happens that the consequences are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3539">TS</a>]
00:59:05 ◼ ► That's when you see a program where there is real consequences like you know missile control systems or things [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3545">TS</a>]
00:59:09 ◼ ► and planes hopefully they have a massive process applied on them like they're willing to sacrifice productivity [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3549">TS</a>]
00:59:18 ◼ ► and not have the smartest people to say look we have crazy requirements about how everything must be done in the most [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3558">TS</a>]
00:59:23 ◼ ► conservative fashion possible and it's like some people look at and say it's a miserable existence [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3563">TS</a>]
00:59:28 ◼ ► but like that's our only tool to say we would like to make a program but we'd also like it not to fail. Like ever. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3568">TS</a>]
00:59:34 ◼ ► And so we're going to apply the methodology nucular bomb or nuclear if you are not a crackly to this problem [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3574">TS</a>]
00:59:43 ◼ ► and we're going to make it miserable for like no one would sign up for this like you can't use these features you're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3583">TS</a>]
00:59:48 ◼ ► not allowed to ever allocate memory we have the system system for do it like for the space program it's not like that. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3588">TS</a>]
00:59:55 ◼ ► and that's what our tool is for for trying to make it so that you know we can minimize. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3595">TS</a>]
01:00:01 ◼ ► but it destroys productivity you can use that same methodology that you use like the Mars rover software you can't use [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3601">TS</a>]
01:00:06 ◼ ► that to make like Whatsapp like you know he'll be out of business it's not you know you can you can even use them a guy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3606">TS</a>]
01:00:13 ◼ ► Wes for crying out loud like you would they would never produce a product you know. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3613">TS</a>]
01:00:17 ◼ ► Think how many years and they would never get the people who want to work on it so it's. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3617">TS</a>]
01:00:22 ◼ ► That's how I think that's the place of methodology like it's it is an evil that is necessary to the degree to which you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3622">TS</a>]
01:00:30 ◼ ► would demand predictability of the software [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3630">TS</a>]
01:00:32 ◼ ► and even then you have things going out of orbit because of unit conversion errors [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3632">TS</a>]
01:00:35 ◼ ► and this bug you know like we're never perfect so I feel for the people who want methodologies to make things better. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3635">TS</a>]
01:00:45 ◼ ► But I mostly see it as like the only tool we have to try to fight against the inherent chaos of writing software in it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3645">TS</a>]
01:00:53 ◼ ► I think you've hit the nail on the head in Coincidentally I was about to bring up that there are instances where [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3653">TS</a>]
01:00:58 ◼ ► waterfall which among software developers is considered to be evil in almost all cases there are instances where [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3658">TS</a>]
01:01:04 ◼ ► waterfall is absolutely the correct answer [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3664">TS</a>]
01:01:08 ◼ ► and in fact as I kind of hinted at during the debug that I was on with Guy and Rene as plug [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3668">TS</a>]
01:01:16 ◼ ► and if I do what I can to get accidentally half way through the thank you I say yes it is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3676">TS</a>]
01:01:22 ◼ ► when I was working on some stuff for where failure was not an option. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3682">TS</a>]
01:01:28 ◼ ► We had pretty much everything that was waterfall a lot of planning up front a lot of meetings up front code reviews [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3688">TS</a>]
01:01:37 ◼ ► and that was in order to prevent exactly what you describe John you know it was to prevent a poor poor unit conversion [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3697">TS</a>]
01:01:47 ◼ ► and in that situation it was absolutely necessary it was absolutely necessary absolutely the right answer [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3707">TS</a>]
01:01:52 ◼ ► and absolutely the right way to get that project done. The problem was is that as a developer especially one who tends. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3712">TS</a>]
01:02:01 ◼ ► and rather than talk about slinging code it was incredibly neutering to me is that a word it doesn't matter anyway it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3721">TS</a>]
01:02:09 ◼ ► made me it made me feel like I could never get anything done because I just had to talk about getting things done [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3729">TS</a>]
01:02:16 ◼ ► but I don't begrudge my then employer for doing things that way it was absolutely the right call. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3736">TS</a>]
01:02:22 ◼ ► It's just it wasn't the right call for me. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3742">TS</a>]
01:02:25 ◼ ► Waterfalls like almost impossible with anything that's reasonably complex because nobody knows what the correct line [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3745">TS</a>]
01:02:31 ◼ ► for it is no matter how much you talk about it like you could you could talk for three years to come up with a design [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3751">TS</a>]
01:02:38 ◼ ► and once you start implementing it on a third day you're going to go with us wouldn't think of that like the running [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3758">TS</a>]
01:02:44 ◼ ► program is too complicated for ever [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3764">TS</a>]
01:02:46 ◼ ► and to keep in their head unlike what happens at that point is do you bravely plow forward with the waterfall design. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3766">TS</a>]
01:02:52 ◼ ► Do you you know go back to the drawing board and start all over again or do you just make some little tweak [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3772">TS</a>]
01:02:56 ◼ ► and then like you end up with this thing of kind of misshapen It's like putting the other piece of furniture in one [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3776">TS</a>]
01:03:00 ◼ ► piece of wood is like Bent Barely they fall the plan right and slot and have be it. Yeah yeah. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3780">TS</a>]
01:03:09 ◼ ► In consent only Marco to bring him back into the conversation has dealt with a lot of that lately. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3789">TS</a>]
01:03:13 ◼ ► Not as many wonderful stuff but not as much wonderful but but you've dealt with the reality [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3793">TS</a>]
01:03:21 ◼ ► and realization that you know what maybe I need to throw away a lot of work I've done and and do it all over again. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3801">TS</a>]
01:03:28 ◼ ► Oh yeah I mean that's I mentioned in the after show about four episodes ago I think it was about a month ago [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3808">TS</a>]
01:03:36 ◼ ► and I don't I think I even cut it out of the final edit. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3816">TS</a>]
01:03:40 ◼ ► But the lead listeners probably heard me a month ago to say that I was rewriting the overcast sync engine because I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3820">TS</a>]
01:03:47 ◼ ► discovered some sync shortcomings and I was we were in the engine to be much better and everything else [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3827">TS</a>]
01:03:53 ◼ ► and at the same time I was doing of course you know you can. In hindsight I can see why this is a bad idea. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3833">TS</a>]
01:04:00 ◼ ► While you're in the sync engine on the whole the whole protocol with which it's saying to the server. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3840">TS</a>]
01:04:04 ◼ ► I also took the opportunity to break up the data model for some of the for for the two key models of the apertures pod [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3844">TS</a>]
01:04:15 ◼ ► I broke I broke off parts of those that were that were use or parts of them in several models [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3855">TS</a>]
01:04:20 ◼ ► and this required such massive changes to the code on both sides server [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3860">TS</a>]
01:04:24 ◼ ► and client at the same time I was I was also changing the same protocol [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3864">TS</a>]
01:04:27 ◼ ► and trying to make it generic so I could use like you know the one master super class flash library functions to sink [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3867">TS</a>]
01:04:34 ◼ ► anything and the result was I lost a month basically. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3874">TS</a>]
01:04:41 ◼ ► And last night I decided you know as I was staring in there with with the parts of my of my applique on the floor still [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3881">TS</a>]
01:04:51 ◼ ► and as I was trying to rework the changes you know still back into the app [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3891">TS</a>]
01:04:57 ◼ ► and I realized I was throwing away so much working behavior [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3897">TS</a>]
01:05:03 ◼ ► and so much like nuance complicated stuff especially in the I.O.'s app that depended on the old model. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3903">TS</a>]
01:05:10 ◼ ► Meanwhile this whole time on my carry i Phone My main i Phone I was using the old version of the app for a month ago [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3910">TS</a>]
01:05:18 ◼ ► because this whole time I couldn't put a new build on yet because it was broken and for the whole month it's been fine. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3918">TS</a>]
01:05:26 ◼ ► and I've been sitting here using this build for this supposedly like unshockable alpha software. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3926">TS</a>]
01:05:31 ◼ ► I've been doing the same build for a month every day heavily and it's been perfectly fine and I realize you know what. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3931">TS</a>]
01:05:37 ◼ ► Now that I'm like you know two thirds of the way into this massive sink change I realize now that even if I get it all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3937">TS</a>]
01:05:44 ◼ ► back together it's going to be too complicated too fragile and not at all maintainable [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3944">TS</a>]
01:05:52 ◼ ► and so even if I finish this the result will be worse than what I had before I was wrong [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3952">TS</a>]
01:05:57 ◼ ► when I thought it would be better. In practice it's not better. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3957">TS</a>]
01:06:00 ◼ ► So therefore I decided to go back to what I had [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3960">TS</a>]
01:06:06 ◼ ► and I spent today basically reverting back to the old version from a month ago and merging in a few. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3966">TS</a>]
01:06:14 ◼ ► Basically cherry picking by hand a few of the improvements I made that that will fit in the old system just fine [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3974">TS</a>]
01:06:23 ◼ ► I wasn't doing this home when I was doing stuff I could keep but I would say I probably threw away two [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3983">TS</a>]
01:06:29 ◼ ► and a half weeks of work because the result is actually better the old way. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3989">TS</a>]
01:06:35 ◼ ► I think you're only on step one of four of the Brent Simmons thinking developed because I think at this point now you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/3995">TS</a>]
01:06:41 ◼ ► have to also throw away this one again and try the other one [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4001">TS</a>]
01:06:44 ◼ ► and then you have to revert back again to the previous year following the Brinson [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4004">TS</a>]
01:06:48 ◼ ► and Vesper think a diary plan of thinking software development you've got a long road ahead of you. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4008">TS</a>]
01:06:55 ◼ ► And to be fair you know to bring this very briefly back to methodology. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4015">TS</a>]
01:06:58 ◼ ► No methodology would have fixed that in my in my estimation you know what I mean it take longer. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4018">TS</a>]
01:07:04 ◼ ► Yeah you're absolutely right like Agile would have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4024">TS</a>]
01:07:07 ◼ ► or would have forced you to ship something you didn't want to ship because it home [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4027">TS</a>]
01:07:10 ◼ ► and in areas where there are constraints like that that's what I was getting at is like that a lot of timed [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4030">TS</a>]
01:07:15 ◼ ► methodologies are seen as the way to solve your problem [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4035">TS</a>]
01:07:18 ◼ ► when your problem really might be your one software you have working on a sync system is not written a sync system [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4038">TS</a>]
01:07:23 ◼ ► before and there's no methodology that's going to make that go faster. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4043">TS</a>]
01:07:27 ◼ ► Make it come out better like there are lots of practices that week that you can adopt him it is not like saying oh we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4047">TS</a>]
01:07:32 ◼ ► should just be the Wild West like for example practices that should be imposed on people that I think everyone agree on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4052">TS</a>]
01:07:37 ◼ ► like you know I don't pick a language or try to like Javascript but the stupid use strict token [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4057">TS</a>]
01:07:42 ◼ ► or if you decide that's a reasonable thing to do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4062">TS</a>]
01:07:44 ◼ ► and I think it isn't it it doesn't affect your compatibility to say everybody's got [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4064">TS</a>]
01:07:47 ◼ ► but the javascript script defined deciding on your compiler flags having some sort of common naming convention [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4067">TS</a>]
01:07:52 ◼ ► and indenting style I wrote all the easy things that people can agree on that stuff counts and it helps everybody but. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4072">TS</a>]
01:08:00 ◼ ► People say that's good. Coming up with agreement on the standards helps. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4080">TS</a>]
01:08:04 ◼ ► If we come up with agreement on even bigger more sweeping changes surely will get a proportional benefit [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4084">TS</a>]
01:08:09 ◼ ► and you don't like you you get I mean that you start talking about testing I think as that testing is definitely [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4089">TS</a>]
01:08:16 ◼ ► something you really need and it's great [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4096">TS</a>]
01:08:18 ◼ ► and testing taken to its logical conclusion a tester in development is certainly better than having no tests at all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4098">TS</a>]
01:08:25 ◼ ► but you can't just keep cranking that dial until it's like now just everything will be perfect all the time because of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4105">TS</a>]
01:08:30 ◼ ► and a little bit more testing is great that if we have one hundred percent code coverage everything testing we've [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4110">TS</a>]
01:08:34 ◼ ► solved the problem of software development and you haven't. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4114">TS</a>]
01:08:38 ◼ ► And unit testing is something that I think is a little bit kind of taboo is the word I'm looking for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4118">TS</a>]
01:08:44 ◼ ► but not a lot of developers that I know are really into it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4124">TS</a>]
01:08:48 ◼ ► and I would argue that test driven development is taking it a bit too far in my personal opinion but. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4128">TS</a>]
01:08:54 ◼ ► But writing writing comprehensive unit tests is all the same sort of thing as code reviews where first I was like oh [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4134">TS</a>]
01:09:03 ◼ ► god really this is a thing we have to do every want to sort of my code and try to tell me why it's wrong [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4143">TS</a>]
01:09:09 ◼ ► and they don't realize that I'm actually right now I've got to convince all these people. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4149">TS</a>]
01:09:13 ◼ ► But in the end it actually worked. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4153">TS</a>]
01:09:14 ◼ ► Code reviews were extremely extremely interesting [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4154">TS</a>]
01:09:18 ◼ ► and I always learn something from it even if I never change my code and most times I did change my code. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4158">TS</a>]
01:09:23 ◼ ► Unit testing is a summer thing words like I don't really need regular test for all these things. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4163">TS</a>]
01:09:27 ◼ ► I run it a few times I give it a few example inputs and that should be enough right. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4167">TS</a>]
01:09:32 ◼ ► But unit testing is an unbelievably awesome way to make sure that not only that what you've written works [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4172">TS</a>]
01:09:39 ◼ ► but also that it will stay working and that's what's extremely powerful about it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4179">TS</a>]
01:09:46 ◼ ► and you can take it to the nth degree which is tested in development or you can use it where appropriate [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4186">TS</a>]
01:09:50 ◼ ► and one of the things that that I need to explore more in Objective C. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4190">TS</a>]
01:09:55 ◼ ► Is looking at like Xcode unit testing framework has never really played with it but there is great. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4195">TS</a>]
01:10:00 ◼ ► and Java in Dot Net like any unit for example in him actually Microsoft has their own copied version of that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4200">TS</a>]
01:10:08 ◼ ► but that would allow you to know of course if that allow you to do those sorts of things [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4208">TS</a>]
01:10:12 ◼ ► and I agree with you John that that you know having these unit tests is or is a really valuable thing. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4212">TS</a>]
01:10:18 ◼ ► Every methodology has something about it that you can take away from it that's good like waterfall has some good things [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4218">TS</a>]
01:10:23 ◼ ► about it as in like I think about we're going to afford to have agile and some good things about it I can you know. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4223">TS</a>]
01:10:27 ◼ ► Let's take smaller steps because if you if you don't know that if you describe something as one big giant step you have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4227">TS</a>]
01:10:32 ◼ ► no idea what's involved in and they can break it into smaller steps than you have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4232">TS</a>]
01:10:35 ◼ ► and I think that's from the Gantt chart as well but also you get that experience agile tester in development. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4235">TS</a>]
01:10:40 ◼ ► Lot of developers left to their own devices won't do test so if you if you try to indoctrinate them into this crazy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4240">TS</a>]
01:10:45 ◼ ► cult of test driven development then they'll learn to write tests [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4245">TS</a>]
01:10:48 ◼ ► and I think I think Petron realm is actually not that far off from something that everybody should do it's just that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4248">TS</a>]
01:10:53 ◼ ► it's so far off from what people would do on their own that it seems crazy at first [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4253">TS</a>]
01:10:59 ◼ ► and I'm I'm a big proponent of massive amounts of testing what you run into eventually with test your Novell man [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4259">TS</a>]
01:11:05 ◼ ► or any kind of testing thing is that tests are also code like it's not like another fallible person comes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4265">TS</a>]
01:11:11 ◼ ► and writes the tests right and it doesn't mean you shouldn't write test that doesn't invalidate it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4271">TS</a>]
01:11:15 ◼ ► but it like that's the limit that you get limited you hit a certain point is that your you know tests [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4275">TS</a>]
01:11:21 ◼ ► or code you're not infallible when you write them either [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4281">TS</a>]
01:11:23 ◼ ► and the more of them you write the more difficult changes become both in good and bad ways [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4283">TS</a>]
01:11:27 ◼ ► and like so every one of these things if taken too far can have problems [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4287">TS</a>]
01:11:32 ◼ ► and that's what we're looking for is like oh just if we got those two [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4292">TS</a>]
01:11:35 ◼ ► or three guys who really kind of know the doing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4295">TS</a>]
01:11:37 ◼ ► and have had experience with each of the things they're going to be doing and have done something like this before [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4297">TS</a>]
01:11:43 ◼ ► and just you know firing on all cylinders in the project small to fit all in all their heads collectively [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4303">TS</a>]
01:11:48 ◼ ► and then you know they're super geniuses [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4308">TS</a>]
01:11:50 ◼ ► and make this great one point no product with this great potential future they handed off to another group like we're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4310">TS</a>]
01:11:54 ◼ ► all trying to go to get to recapture that it's like it's like trying to recapture you like. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4314">TS</a>]
01:12:00 ◼ ► You're never going to get there again you're never going to be like you were when you were sixteen years old [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4320">TS</a>]
01:12:04 ◼ ► and I guess we can just apply the series of constraints [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4324">TS</a>]
01:12:07 ◼ ► but there are like there's wisdom in every experience that you had that you want to apply [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4327">TS</a>]
01:12:11 ◼ ► and in some respects it doesn't matter if you're in an organization it's like you know whoever the Chargers things are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4331">TS</a>]
01:12:16 ◼ ► that all of the way we go over the chart of things as we go to test driven [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4336">TS</a>]
01:12:19 ◼ ► or we have to pair program we have to if you like someone's leaning heavily on whatever button or dial [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4339">TS</a>]
01:12:24 ◼ ► or accelerated I think is the best thing in the end what matters is like the people in the group the dynamics within [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4344">TS</a>]
01:12:31 ◼ ► the people their motivation for what they're doing and their skills [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4351">TS</a>]
01:12:34 ◼ ► and experience how they done something like this before [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4354">TS</a>]
01:12:37 ◼ ► and almost any minute ology you apply to them will appear to work because they would have been fine in any situation [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4357">TS</a>]
01:12:43 ◼ ► and those same people you know would choose to to write test because they know it's good like that because no [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4363">TS</a>]
01:12:49 ◼ ► methodology that omits tests entirely because I've been saying there's no methodology that omits any planning up front [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4369">TS</a>]
01:12:54 ◼ ► because we hit waterfall like this there's always there's always something some piece of every one of them like you no [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4374">TS</a>]
01:13:01 ◼ ► matter what methodology you apply to a bunch of good people and they will pull all the parts from each one of them [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4381">TS</a>]
01:13:06 ◼ ► and the problems only come in when it's like you know and how long ago it was like no silver bullet written [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4386">TS</a>]
01:13:10 ◼ ► and you know the red brick stuff like that's not so long ago as we've known this for so long as people keep reaching [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4390">TS</a>]
01:13:16 ◼ ► for that for that brass ring and saying This time I've got and every time is like you don't have it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4396">TS</a>]
01:13:20 ◼ ► but you've discovered something new that maybe we can take away from what you're preaching and move forward. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4400">TS</a>]
01:13:26 ◼ ► So in summary you know methodologies can help. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4406">TS</a>]
01:13:29 ◼ ► But really they're not going to fix anything and it's all a bunch of hocus pocus. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4409">TS</a>]
01:13:33 ◼ ► With that said we should say just wishes you are no sponsor was going to say that both of us should convince Marco to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4413">TS</a>]
01:13:39 ◼ ► write way more tests than he's currently writing which is to say more than zero. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4419">TS</a>]
01:13:43 ◼ ► I don't know what that number is I was going to say I'm just saying which is to say more than zero. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4423">TS</a>]
01:13:49 ◼ ► Yes I would suggest that I would say what I really want [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4429">TS</a>]
01:13:52 ◼ ► but anyway Marco what else is really cool these days it is once again our friends at square space square space is the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4432">TS</a>]
01:14:00 ◼ ► I make it fast and easy to create your own professional web site or online portfolio for free trial [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4440">TS</a>]
01:14:05 ◼ ► and ten percent off the square space dot com and use offer could now you have no it's a new month. January was Marco. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4445">TS</a>]
01:14:12 ◼ ► February was Casey march off a cliff or Squarespace is critical. Nice everyone else got the name. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4452">TS</a>]
01:14:21 ◼ ► I just get my credit card one of my old hot star Iraq if they were going to start better than my name I hope maybe [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4461">TS</a>]
01:14:28 ◼ ► maybe critical is your identity. I was going to say that's so critical of you right then and there. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4468">TS</a>]
01:14:33 ◼ ► It's hypercritical too long to fit in database context [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4473">TS</a>]
01:14:35 ◼ ► or the coupon codes for a maybe they'll throw a warning at the thought of their whole app Squarespace is constantly [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4475">TS</a>]
01:14:42 ◼ ► improving their platform with new features new designs and even better support. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4482">TS</a>]
01:14:46 ◼ ► They've been beautiful country to start with and all the style options you need to create a unique web site for you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4486">TS</a>]
01:14:52 ◼ ► There were over twenty highly customizable templates for you to choose from [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4492">TS</a>]
01:14:56 ◼ ► and these templates of won numerous design awards from prestigious institutions. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4496">TS</a>]
01:15:00 ◼ ► Now square space is very easy to use if you need any help. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4500">TS</a>]
01:15:04 ◼ ► They have an amazing support team of over seventy people in New York City that works twenty four hours a day seven days [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4504">TS</a>]
01:15:10 ◼ ► a week and even they have won numerous awards so Squarespace started just eight dollars a month. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4510">TS</a>]
01:15:16 ◼ ► Now they have this cool feature called square space commerce where you can build your whole you can build an online [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4516">TS</a>]
01:15:21 ◼ ► store that sells physical or digital goods [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4521">TS</a>]
01:15:25 ◼ ► and it's this whole storefront capability built into square space so it looks like your site you can theme it you can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4525">TS</a>]
01:15:32 ◼ ► customize it and you don't have to build a shopping cart that the tracker for all the inventory [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4532">TS</a>]
01:15:36 ◼ ► and all that crap they do all of that for you. Building a store with a lot of work they do it all for you. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4536">TS</a>]
01:15:42 ◼ ► And squareface commerce is included in every square space plan. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4542">TS</a>]
01:15:45 ◼ ► So if you want to use it great notational charge if not you want to make a site put a portfolio whatever the case may [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4545">TS</a>]
01:15:53 ◼ ► All this started at eight dollars a month you get a freedom a name with that purchase for a year up front and. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4553">TS</a>]
01:16:00 ◼ ► You can start you can start a free trial today. No credit card required for that free trial. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4560">TS</a>]
01:16:04 ◼ ► It's a real free trial you don't have to like give him a credit card [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4564">TS</a>]
01:16:07 ◼ ► and you know hope that you remember otherwise you get charged nothing like that. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4567">TS</a>]
01:16:11 ◼ ► Real free trial at square space go squarespace dot com and use offer code critical to learn more [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4571">TS</a>]
01:16:18 ◼ ► and to start building your site today. Now one more thing if you hurry up. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4578">TS</a>]
01:16:22 ◼ ► If they are they're interviewing designers and engineers because they want to hire thirty designers [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4582">TS</a>]
01:16:29 ◼ ► and engineers before March fifteenth Now right now they have to be released on March sixth. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4589">TS</a>]
01:16:34 ◼ ► So you know hurry up basically But if you interview for an engineering advantage [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4594">TS</a>]
01:16:39 ◼ ► and before March fifteenth they will invite you and your partner to be New Yorkers for the weekend. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4599">TS</a>]
01:16:45 ◼ ► They will fly you out put you up when the city's best hotels [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4605">TS</a>]
01:16:48 ◼ ► and give you a long weekend of being a New Yorker going to restaurants attractions etc [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4608">TS</a>]
01:16:53 ◼ ► and they will pick up the whole tab for it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4613">TS</a>]
01:16:55 ◼ ► They've been voted one of New York City's greatest place to work for two years running. So put them on your short list. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4615">TS</a>]
01:17:00 ◼ ► They're looking to hire again thirty engineers and designers by March fifteenth so hurry up. Going to be a part of it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4620">TS</a>]
01:17:05 ◼ ► Square Space dot com to learn more [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4625">TS</a>]
01:17:07 ◼ ► and apply to things like this Chris has once again member offer code critical if you have been hearing Squarespace ads [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4627">TS</a>]
01:17:16 ◼ ► but not going to the site to sign up as a time to do it with my code to show the other two I wonder if I can get them [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4636">TS</a>]
01:17:23 ◼ ► to tell me like you know in a couple of months which of our codes one yet it's too late for you to use an ivory body [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4643">TS</a>]
01:17:29 ◼ ► pile on my code so in markets of information I'll be the overwhelming winner. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4649">TS</a>]
01:17:33 ◼ ► Well I don't think our code stopped working. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4653">TS</a>]
01:17:35 ◼ ► I'm pretty sure the code still work it just you know another that would be bad because then like you whoever the first [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4655">TS</a>]
01:17:41 ◼ ► code would have the accumulation of the you know the months of of user signing up anyway. Everyone is Micah. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4661">TS</a>]
01:17:49 ◼ ► Casey was the. After all this time was the methodology used to talk on the show everything you hoped it would be. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4669">TS</a>]
01:17:56 ◼ ► Now actually really wasn't. I think it's over though. Are we done. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4676">TS</a>]
01:18:02 ◼ ► Are we I don't know we don't have to be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4682">TS</a>]
01:18:04 ◼ ► and we don't have to be I don't really have so much more to say To be honest after all that. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4684">TS</a>]
01:18:07 ◼ ► Well I have a question for each one of you. I mean we are going to have nine of us at the follow up. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4687">TS</a>]
01:18:13 ◼ ► Maybe Marco going to stay in but like which one methodology or part of the methodology. Have you found to be. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4693">TS</a>]
01:18:22 ◼ ► Make the biggest improvement in how and how you feel about coding or how you write code. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4702">TS</a>]
01:18:28 ◼ ► So Marco do you have an answer for that. I don't have to be like a formal wonders anything you've done. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4708">TS</a>]
01:18:32 ◼ ► You know honestly what has improved my code the most by far has been open sourcing it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4712">TS</a>]
01:18:40 ◼ ► and not necessarily because of the contributions I get which are good but I look at a whole lot of them. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4720">TS</a>]
01:18:45 ◼ ► It's mostly that if I know I'm going to be open sourcing it I hold myself to a higher standard and I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4725">TS</a>]
01:18:51 ◼ ► and I kind of reconsider my decisions more and so by by editing myself more [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4731">TS</a>]
01:18:57 ◼ ► and by by pushing myself to a higher level discipline for these very important modules that I'm open sourcing that that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4737">TS</a>]
01:19:05 ◼ ► has helped me to radically and you know as a defensive helper there is you know I don't really have a code review. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4745">TS</a>]
01:19:14 ◼ ► You know there's a lot of of methodology type stuff that I just can't do as one person [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4754">TS</a>]
01:19:21 ◼ ► and a lot of the stuff I could do like having tons of tests I could do a lot of that stuff. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4761">TS</a>]
01:19:26 ◼ ► But it's it it would take so much of my time it would slow me down so much that it might not be worthwhile or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4766">TS</a>]
01:19:33 ◼ ► or practical for me to do that and so I don't do a whole lot of stuff [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4773">TS</a>]
01:19:38 ◼ ► but certainly yeah open sourcing by far that's that's helping with anything so for me I would say that I think scrum [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4778">TS</a>]
01:19:50 ◼ ► which is to say the thing where you get together either physically or on the phone for five to fifteen minutes each. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4790">TS</a>]
01:20:00 ◼ ► Day and talk about what you've done and what you're doing and what stands in your way. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4800">TS</a>]
01:20:04 ◼ ► That sounds wonderful in theory and in practice never works. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4804">TS</a>]
01:20:13 ◼ ► Even in my company where we take agile extremely seriously [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4813">TS</a>]
01:20:18 ◼ ► and of course all the people who think I'm wrong about everything are laughing right now [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4818">TS</a>]
01:20:22 ◼ ► but we do take Advil very seriously and whether or not you think I am. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4822">TS</a>]
01:20:26 ◼ ► I know what I'm talking about I show you that they do and so they they take scrum very seriously [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4826">TS</a>]
01:20:30 ◼ ► and we have scrums every single day [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4830">TS</a>]
01:20:32 ◼ ► and even though we take all this stuff so seriously describes never last the fifteen minutes are supposed to last [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4832">TS</a>]
01:20:39 ◼ ► and they always go on to tangents that they're not supposed to go in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4839">TS</a>]
01:20:43 ◼ ► and so scrum is never help however that one project where we had that perfect storm of willing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4843">TS</a>]
01:20:51 ◼ ► and capable developers willing and capable keyway willing and capable pm and willing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4851">TS</a>]
01:20:57 ◼ ► and capable product owner slash client when all of us really went all in on agile and really bought into it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4857">TS</a>]
01:21:05 ◼ ► and really believed in it and really took it seriously. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4865">TS</a>]
01:21:09 ◼ ► It was fantastic because it allowed for us to roll with the client's ever changing requests which to be fair they were [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4869">TS</a>]
01:21:19 ◼ ► actually very good to us and didn't really change things that often but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4879">TS</a>]
01:21:22 ◼ ► when they did the product owner the client would come to us and say oh I really want to do this thing. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4882">TS</a>]
01:21:28 ◼ ► How much will how many points is that and we'll go and talk for a few minutes OK it's eight points. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4888">TS</a>]
01:21:34 ◼ ► Man All right let me figure out what points I want to get rid of and I'll get back to you. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4894">TS</a>]
01:21:38 ◼ ► And we didn't have to argue with them. There was no scope creep there was no. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4898">TS</a>]
01:21:44 ◼ ► Well if you'd like this to happen you're going to have to take some other stuff. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4904">TS</a>]
01:21:48 ◼ ► How much other stuff we don't know you just have to take out of the stuff I did so much. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4908">TS</a>]
01:21:53 ◼ ► None of that awkward conversation happened. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4913">TS</a>]
01:21:55 ◼ ► They took it upon themselves to realize well you know what you've told me that. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4915">TS</a>]
01:22:00 ◼ ► That that this thing that I really want is eight points [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4920">TS</a>]
01:22:03 ◼ ► and so I know that I need to take away eight points from what's currently on the docket. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4923">TS</a>]
01:22:09 ◼ ► And oh my god it was so wonderful I mean I genuinely It was so wonderful [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4929">TS</a>]
01:22:14 ◼ ► and I think this is exacerbated by the fact that in consulting you have this client versus one of vs necessarily the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4934">TS</a>]
01:22:23 ◼ ► you have the your client in your own team and sometimes that can be an adversarial relationship but when you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4943">TS</a>]
01:22:30 ◼ ► when we were on the same page with agile it was so wonderful because we were truly honestly partners in getting this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4950">TS</a>]
01:22:36 ◼ ► project on and it was great and so to answer questions on the one of the ten [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4956">TS</a>]
01:22:42 ◼ ► or so years I've been working the one time that agile really really really really stuck. It was incredible. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4962">TS</a>]
01:22:50 ◼ ► But to be fair I've tried agile many many other times and it hasn't really worked out that well. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4970">TS</a>]
01:22:55 ◼ ► And at best it was a distraction and at worst it was a hindrance. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4975">TS</a>]
01:23:01 ◼ ► Yeah I would say for me it's hard to pick because a lot of things like a lot of steps [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4981">TS</a>]
01:23:07 ◼ ► and things that I've done that for the better [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4987">TS</a>]
01:23:09 ◼ ► and I recognize Marco's thing with open sourcing stuff like me having a lot of my Coby open sores all in my career now [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4989">TS</a>]
01:23:19 ◼ ► That really helped you know for all the reasons Marcus I like you just feel the pressure to make it better [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/4999">TS</a>]
01:23:23 ◼ ► and especially when you're young developer working on your own. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5003">TS</a>]
01:23:26 ◼ ► Like I was under slight you know random open source stuff. You need some kind of external motivation. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5006">TS</a>]
01:23:32 ◼ ► You don't have a boss telling you to do it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5012">TS</a>]
01:23:33 ◼ ► or maybe you don't have other experienced programmers trying to get you to stuff [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5013">TS</a>]
01:23:36 ◼ ► but I think the thing that has made the biggest impact on me in terms of how I develop software was as I started to do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5016">TS</a>]
01:23:47 ◼ ► and not in any particular thing not particularly test driven not particular even unit test versus integration does [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5027">TS</a>]
01:23:52 ◼ ► or has five sets but is the idea that testing is not like eating your vegetables and I know I had turned a corner [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5032">TS</a>]
01:24:00 ◼ ► or two jobs ago at some point there was some fairly complicated project that they wanted with like you know this big long [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5040">TS</a>]
01:24:08 ◼ ► description of how it's supposed to work written entirely by non-technical people so of course they have no ideas about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5048">TS</a>]
01:24:12 ◼ ► feasibility or anything like that and they needed in a super short time frame [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5052">TS</a>]
01:24:17 ◼ ► and they're like you know this is super important we know it's really complicated [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5057">TS</a>]
01:24:20 ◼ ► but like him you know we have all this meeting about it like what's going to take to get this thing done. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5060">TS</a>]
01:24:24 ◼ ► And my reaction to being put in that situation to be like the you know the lead guy on this project was immediately to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5064">TS</a>]
01:24:34 ◼ ► to revert to kind of like you know not test driven entirely [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5074">TS</a>]
01:24:36 ◼ ► but like to say I'm going to need a massive amount of tests more testing than my tests have to be great [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5076">TS</a>]
01:24:42 ◼ ► and I have to really constant I think because that's the fastest way to get this thing done on time with the fewest [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5082">TS</a>]
01:24:49 ◼ ► and the fact that that was my reaction shows that I had you know sort of learned through bitter experience that testing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5089">TS</a>]
01:24:56 ◼ ► is not like eating your vegetables is not like a luxury you can get that you can afford to do like if you had the extra [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5096">TS</a>]
01:25:02 ◼ ► time or whatever but rather when you're under the gun is when you really need to pull that out of your back pocket [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5102">TS</a>]
01:25:07 ◼ ► and not be you know you know religious about it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5107">TS</a>]
01:25:10 ◼ ► and say like oh yeah I'm not going to take a step until I've got a failing test [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5110">TS</a>]
01:25:14 ◼ ► and all this other stuff like not that crazy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5114">TS</a>]
01:25:16 ◼ ► but just like for me to feel confident that I can move at my fastest pace I have to be sure that the code I have I'm [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5116">TS</a>]
01:25:22 ◼ ► writing is correct and in the code that I've written remains correct. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5122">TS</a>]
01:25:25 ◼ ► During this entire development process and I've never been under quite the same constraints before [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5125">TS</a>]
01:25:30 ◼ ► but now like that's an example of a turnaround methodology I think people do pair programming have the same feeling [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5130">TS</a>]
01:25:36 ◼ ► sometimes or it's like I'm not going to do that all the time as the most extreme thing but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5136">TS</a>]
01:25:40 ◼ ► when push comes to shove I know which styles I can turn to myself to get my best performance [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5140">TS</a>]
01:25:45 ◼ ► and I will choose from those things and I think testing is the one that probably I don't even know how. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5145">TS</a>]
01:25:51 ◼ ► Probably you know because the test Urban Development like you know hype and everything [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5151">TS</a>]
01:25:54 ◼ ► but I would not have thought of that on my own to be the thing that I should do when I was young programmer but event. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5154">TS</a>]
01:26:00 ◼ ► So they came to have it as one of the tools in my toolbox and I have a now and I try to prejudge other people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5160">TS</a>]
01:26:06 ◼ ► but I say I like it. It should be something that you do from time to time to know how it affects your work. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5166">TS</a>]
01:26:12 ◼ ► Yeah and I agree and it's funny because the formal unit testing is something [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5172">TS</a>]
01:26:17 ◼ ► and also formal integration testing is something that I find often gets punted if you're running out of time or budget. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5177">TS</a>]
01:26:25 ◼ ► Additionally performance testing is another example of something that gets punted if you don't have a lot of if you're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5185">TS</a>]
01:26:31 ◼ ► running out of time running on a budget. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5191">TS</a>]
01:26:33 ◼ ► But all of those things are extraordinarily important to give a deliverable that you're really truly proud of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5193">TS</a>]
01:26:40 ◼ ► and it's a hard thing man when when when somebody is looking at you being a project manager [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5200">TS</a>]
01:26:46 ◼ ► or a client saying oh my goodness you really really really need to get this thing shipped in you say no my test classes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5206">TS</a>]
01:26:55 ◼ ► aren't complete yet so there is not enough code coverage so you need to leave me alone. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5215">TS</a>]
01:27:00 ◼ ► So hard thing to sell and it's a hard thing to say [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5220">TS</a>]
01:27:03 ◼ ► but so often if you don't get that right up front you don't pay for it later. Same thing with performance testing. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5223">TS</a>]
01:27:09 ◼ ► Oh well you know we don't need to worry about that we shouldn't have but five users at a time. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5229">TS</a>]
01:27:13 ◼ ► And something weird happens next you know you have five hundred users at the same time [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5233">TS</a>]
01:27:17 ◼ ► and your Web site comes to a screeching halt. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5237">TS</a>]
01:27:20 ◼ ► The key thing is to recognize when each tool is appropriate for the example that I cited. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5240">TS</a>]
01:27:25 ◼ ► I was handed a big giant you know card documentaries [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5245">TS</a>]
01:27:28 ◼ ► or documents of this complex system not written as a program expect by any means that merely written as like like you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5248">TS</a>]
01:27:36 ◼ ► know a fantasy scenario would be cool if and what about this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5256">TS</a>]
01:27:40 ◼ ► and this would do this in the sort of the really complicated stuff it involves tables [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5260">TS</a>]
01:27:43 ◼ ► or whatever it was kind of like an intentional waterfall where it was like a big idea of a complex system that is just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5263">TS</a>]
01:27:50 ◼ ► now in the kind of like blue sky ink stage [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5270">TS</a>]
01:27:53 ◼ ► but there needs to be needs to be shipped this software in like a very short period time like less than a month. Right. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5273">TS</a>]
01:27:59 ◼ ► And. That's a case where you can say look if you agree this is how this is. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5279">TS</a>]
01:28:03 ◼ ► This needs to work and you think you've got it all down. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5283">TS</a>]
01:28:06 ◼ ► It's the fastest way for me to do this is to lean heavily on testing because there are so many complicated scenarios [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5286">TS</a>]
01:28:15 ◼ ► and it's not like I'm going to get one hundred percent coverage is not going to test every possible iteration of input [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5295">TS</a>]
01:28:20 ◼ ► but at the very least this document here describes many different situations and how they interact. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5300">TS</a>]
01:28:24 ◼ ► And I can test every single one of those things. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5304">TS</a>]
01:28:27 ◼ ► It's the only way I'm going to be able to ratchet my way through this code [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5307">TS</a>]
01:28:30 ◼ ► and that's different than a situation of like well we're not quite sure what we want to make it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5310">TS</a>]
01:28:35 ◼ ► and in that case writing all these tests would just be like pinning yourself down the spider webs while you're trying [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5315">TS</a>]
01:28:39 ◼ ► to to move to an unknown destination. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5319">TS</a>]
01:28:42 ◼ ► So you have to recognize like when do I have enough information to really pin this down the test right now. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5322">TS</a>]
01:28:47 ◼ ► Or when do I have to do kind of a more fast and loose agile type thing of all this get something up and running [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5327">TS</a>]
01:28:51 ◼ ► and we'll look at it will poke around that it will see how it like in that case you're wasting your time to writing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5331">TS</a>]
01:28:56 ◼ ► and changing writing and changing tests for something you're not even sure how it's supposed to work. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5336">TS</a>]
01:28:59 ◼ ► So in all these cases like you can't you can't use the same tool for all different situations you have to know like in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5339">TS</a>]
01:29:07 ◼ ► Margot's case when he's doing the U.I. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5347">TS</a>]
01:29:09 ◼ ► I like this look over there how does this transition look maybe this button should be over there maybe is actually [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5349">TS</a>]
01:29:12 ◼ ► shouldn't be a button it should be a slight error let me try this with a gesture like writing tests for all those cases [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5352">TS</a>]
01:29:17 ◼ ► would just slow them down it would not help whereas for example the sync code which can be largely faceless is like an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5357">TS</a>]
01:29:24 ◼ ► and very complicated in many different states is an ideal opportunity to do a very complicated series of data driven tests [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5364">TS</a>]
01:29:31 ◼ ► and maybe even some fuzz testing to be a consonant of this tiny little kernel of stuff that you've made works the way [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5371">TS</a>]
01:29:37 ◼ ► Oh yeah and one of the reasons why I don't write a lot of tests is because most of the code I write [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5377">TS</a>]
01:29:43 ◼ ► and especially most of the most of the difficult tricky code I write is the form which is it's you know U.I. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5383">TS</a>]
01:29:51 ◼ ► Stuff it's much harder to test and write tests for and maintain those test I changed things [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5391">TS</a>]
01:29:56 ◼ ► and you know either refine the design of a you know add buttons and. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5396">TS</a>]
01:30:00 ◼ ► Here's a list of around like it's it's much harder to test for I don't know I don't end up writing a lot of the like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5400">TS</a>]
01:30:05 ◼ ► easily testable faceless module math that's that's very unusual for me to write a lot of that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5405">TS</a>]
01:30:11 ◼ ► but you gotta know you've got the F. Something devious not to see it at C. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5411">TS</a>]
01:30:17 ◼ ► and somebody else wrote Chester that this is why open source is great like that that's something that's another thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5417">TS</a>]
01:30:23 ◼ ► an open source does because most open source cultures have a culture or I'm going to say most in our culture vulture [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5423">TS</a>]
01:30:28 ◼ ► but I'm always depressed and I when I download something on target and you know run configure make an error [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5428">TS</a>]
01:30:34 ◼ ► and make tests and it says no make That's not what you're talking about and like but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5434">TS</a>]
01:30:39 ◼ ► but yeah most most of the newer software culture is in dynamically reasons than Amy jobs from stuff like testing is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5439">TS</a>]
01:30:46 ◼ ► part of the culture if you really something as open source you're kind of expected this social pressure to say where is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5446">TS</a>]
01:30:51 ◼ ► the test suite. How can I tell that this works on my system I want to immediately you know run the test suite. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5451">TS</a>]
01:30:57 ◼ ► Perl is super crazy on the testing thing where you want to even install modules [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5457">TS</a>]
01:31:02 ◼ ► and they don't pass their test unless you know the secret incantation to tell it don't bother running the tests [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5462">TS</a>]
01:31:08 ◼ ► Parents I talk about like well tests or software too [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5468">TS</a>]
01:31:10 ◼ ► and the people who wrote them aren't infallible so a lot of times the model won't stop because the test won't pass [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5470">TS</a>]
01:31:14 ◼ ► but the tests are wrong and because they were written by another fallible human and you know it's you go too far [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5474">TS</a>]
01:31:20 ◼ ► and that direction as well but overall it's it's a good idea to do you know test until it hurts basically and then [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5480">TS</a>]
01:31:29 ◼ ► and then back into the goodness right so we good. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5489">TS</a>]
01:31:37 ◼ ► Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week influx by brave wave King and Squarespace and we will see you next week. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5497">TS</a>]
01:31:49 ◼ ► Now that's a dental accidentals. Because it was that this was banks and then and she was sitting in the first place. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5509">TS</a>]
01:32:18 ◼ ► It sets to that list and Michael. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5538">TS</a>]
01:32:49 ◼ ► Gentlemen thank you for letting me have my moments and you know I want to talk about too [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5569">TS</a>]
01:32:53 ◼ ► but I think the promise of home of the knowledge is too big a topic it's like software development right to discuss [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5573">TS</a>]
01:33:00 ◼ ► software What do you think guys in the other thing is occurred to me that I was describing my experience with agile [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5580">TS</a>]
01:33:08 ◼ ► but I know that we're going to or I'm going to get much e-mail [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5588">TS</a>]
01:33:15 ◼ ► and is all that's not how it all is so you're calling scrum agile and agile scrum [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5595">TS</a>]
01:33:18 ◼ ► and you don't know what you don't get on that. I'm not looking forward to that at all. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5598">TS</a>]
01:33:22 ◼ ► I'm just glad because last week when when I asked people to tell me what they were in the nation that about warnings [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5602">TS</a>]
01:33:27 ◼ ► and production I don't think I have I don't think we've ever gotten that much feedback and it was like seriously. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5607">TS</a>]
01:33:33 ◼ ► Every time I check my email all day long there be three more and they were each five paragraphs long like it was. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5613">TS</a>]
01:33:40 ◼ ► It was actually a lot to keep up with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5620">TS</a>]
01:33:43 ◼ ► when you solicited like Tell me about the problems that you have it your work people will say we didn't solicit [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5623">TS</a>]
01:33:47 ◼ ► feedback on the show about her methodology. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5627">TS</a>]
01:33:50 ◼ ► But when we get to things like if you were doing it right like you can put the butter in the coffee [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5630">TS</a>]
01:33:55 ◼ ► or whatever like that although I knew I'd like this kind of like you know you don't understand my. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5635">TS</a>]
01:34:00 ◼ ► A religion is the true religion and you're doing it ever so slightly wrong [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5640">TS</a>]
01:34:02 ◼ ► and I give only you didn't eat shellfish you'd be fine like it that's what I was trying to get at the beginning of like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5642">TS</a>]
01:34:09 ◼ ► the whole point to soften analogies like to take to attempt to impose order [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5649">TS</a>]
01:34:14 ◼ ► and to make things better than they could ever possibly be like. No software methodology can possibly do this. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5654">TS</a>]
01:34:19 ◼ ► Like there is there is no the Silverball there's nothing you can do to make it as good as it can possibly be. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5659">TS</a>]
01:34:25 ◼ ► You just have to decide what is the appropriate level of annoyance for the given task at hand [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5665">TS</a>]
01:34:30 ◼ ► and then there are many things to choose from and some are better than others and people write and tell us that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5670">TS</a>]
01:34:35 ◼ ► but I don't think we're getting the absoluteness who are like you know pair program is the only way to do programming [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5675">TS</a>]
01:34:40 ◼ ► and we're not doing pair programming is doing it wrong [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5680">TS</a>]
01:34:43 ◼ ► and there's no way anyone who's not doing pair programming can be as good as some of doing pair programming. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5683">TS</a>]
01:34:49 ◼ ► Well I don't think they will because they will listen [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5689">TS</a>]
01:34:52 ◼ ► and the thing is like that's the thing because he was like unless you have a time machine you can't beat us these [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5692">TS</a>]
01:34:58 ◼ ► things because software is like you know it's always different like you have to get the same exact people solving the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5698">TS</a>]
01:35:03 ◼ ► same exact problem the same exact combine with the same exact knowledge about the Dome of the product they have your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5703">TS</a>]
01:35:08 ◼ ► knowledge and you can find people who are identical who have this like it is impossible to validly A.B. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5708">TS</a>]
01:35:12 ◼ ► Test because everything software engineers engineers do is novel in some small way. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5712">TS</a>]
01:35:19 ◼ ► Yeah that's one of the problems with a lot of these things like you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5719">TS</a>]
01:35:22 ◼ ► and this I mean this is a problem in so many fields and so many so many actions but like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5722">TS</a>]
01:35:28 ◼ ► when you can't really scientifically test the stuff very easily if at all then you know you might do something in your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5728">TS</a>]
01:35:37 ◼ ► methodology and ascribe your success or failure to that thing when in fact it had little to do with it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5737">TS</a>]
01:35:43 ◼ ► and that's why I look at some of so many of these things a skepticism like OK you did it this way and it worked. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5743">TS</a>]
01:35:49 ◼ ► But if you did it some other way would it have also worked and it didn't work because of the way you did it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5749">TS</a>]
01:35:55 ◼ ► or did it work because of the people and the conditions they were in. And there's all these. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5755">TS</a>]
01:36:00 ◼ ► And he's like like I recently got into the the world of high end headphones [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5760">TS</a>]
01:36:04 ◼ ► and I mean the audio file world is comical in the things that it believes in and and I go on. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5764">TS</a>]
01:36:12 ◼ ► On the head of fire the biggest headphone enthusiast forum [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5772">TS</a>]
01:36:16 ◼ ► and I have trouble relating to the people there because they're all talking about how they upgraded the cable to this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5776">TS</a>]
01:36:22 ◼ ► new cable and how they can hear all sorts of things that cables can't actually make you hear [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5782">TS</a>]
01:36:27 ◼ ► and that all cables you know cables don't vary that much and it's all psychological [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5787">TS</a>]
01:36:32 ◼ ► and you're spending four hundred dollars on a headphone cable [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5792">TS</a>]
01:36:34 ◼ ► and like I can't understand these people because I know scientifically like what their what their thinking is invalid [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5794">TS</a>]
01:36:43 ◼ ► and what they're saying is wrong and and they're wasting their time [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5803">TS</a>]
01:36:46 ◼ ► and money doing things that are that are just totally placebo [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5806">TS</a>]
01:36:50 ◼ ► and I wonder how much of the methodology stuff is that same way wears what you wear you know you just you can't really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5810">TS</a>]
01:36:58 ◼ ► Yeah I think I think individual people can tell what parts of the methodology they're using is helpful to them. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5818">TS</a>]
01:37:05 ◼ ► Basically by by gauging their own performance that like I've gotten similar problems like this in the past [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5825">TS</a>]
01:37:11 ◼ ► and I've performed this way on it and it's take me this long and I've had as much difficulty and I know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5831">TS</a>]
01:37:16 ◼ ► when they told me to do this I felt that I was going to have difficulty with it but I did a new thing this time [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5836">TS</a>]
01:37:21 ◼ ► and it helped me do it better and like that's like on an individual basis like I decided to use testing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5841">TS</a>]
01:37:26 ◼ ► or I had a friend look at my code before I checked it into going to very informal code reviews [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5846">TS</a>]
01:37:30 ◼ ► or I clarify the requirements like that's you know becoming becoming a programmer and having experience [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5850">TS</a>]
01:37:36 ◼ ► and you learn what all those little things are. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5856">TS</a>]
01:37:38 ◼ ► And that's also part of the frustration is if you're put into an organization where you're told to do X. Y. and Z. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5858">TS</a>]
01:37:43 ◼ ► but Not this thing you know that helps you and you're like oh well you know I really I really do better [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5863">TS</a>]
01:37:48 ◼ ► when I'm pair programming or I can't stand pair programming it makes me unable to work. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5868">TS</a>]
01:37:52 ◼ ► But the organization like it wants to have rules for everybody. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5872">TS</a>]
01:37:56 ◼ ► They don't want to just do whatever the hell they want because then they felt like a man. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5876">TS</a>]
01:38:00 ◼ ► That's that's the difficulty of the situation that's like even without A.B. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5880">TS</a>]
01:38:03 ◼ ► Testing I feel like individual programmers can get a feel for the things that help them [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5883">TS</a>]
01:38:07 ◼ ► and want to repeat that you know as appropriate. The filling up of the cherub either at the audio file. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5887">TS</a>]
01:38:14 ◼ ► Yes Dalton post about that today and he said he couldn't tell whether it's a joke or not either [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5894">TS</a>]
01:38:19 ◼ ► and I can tell you that or I can think about this but it seems like it's got to be but then you never know. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5899">TS</a>]
01:38:27 ◼ ► Anything that is made for audio files promises better sound quality that has no basis in science has no basis in a B. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5907">TS</a>]
01:38:34 ◼ ► X. Testing and cost a lot of money. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5914">TS</a>]
01:38:37 ◼ ► It's probably not a joke that's that's the the loss of audio file crap out there is like yet some it's out there. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5917">TS</a>]
01:38:43 ◼ ► They're serious and people are actually buying. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5923">TS</a>]
01:38:46 ◼ ► Probably not a lot of people but enough people to make it worth selling a thousand dollar six foot cable. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5926">TS</a>]
01:38:51 ◼ ► Yeah that is absolutely ridiculous but it works out to be a joke. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5931">TS</a>]
01:38:54 ◼ ► When do we want to do a quick accent on neutral incorporated we want to save that for next week. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5934">TS</a>]
01:39:00 ◼ ► We can do it honestly I really don't think there's much to say about it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5940">TS</a>]
01:39:04 ◼ ► I think why do you even say that you know others go. Now that's a top tier equivalent of how hard can it be. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5944">TS</a>]
01:39:11 ◼ ► Exactly yeah I mean we knew about what they were calling I was in the car last summer [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5951">TS</a>]
01:39:18 ◼ ► and we knew this was in the works [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5958">TS</a>]
01:39:20 ◼ ► and there's some stuff in the Iowa seven point one S T K that's in beta still there's some stuff in there that that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5960">TS</a>]
01:39:27 ◼ ► looks like it's probably related. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5967">TS</a>]
01:39:29 ◼ ► And so this is not really a huge surprise [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5969">TS</a>]
01:39:33 ◼ ► and then even even like a month ago I think it was Steven transmit one of the one of the good I was hackers was leaking [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5973">TS</a>]
01:39:40 ◼ ► like screenshots of the simulator running with this thing with the card play interface anyway so it's not big news that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5980">TS</a>]
01:39:51 ◼ ► The important news I think is that it is twofold one that Apple's actually kind of working with the car manufacturer. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/5991">TS</a>]
01:40:00 ◼ ► Just to give a variety of input methods the Ferrari one that was demo was resistive touchscreen. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6000">TS</a>]
01:40:05 ◼ ► The Mercedes one used to control wheel in a scream wasn't stuck screen at all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6005">TS</a>]
01:40:09 ◼ ► and then some other one used to touch screen and so there's like they're showing off. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6009">TS</a>]
01:40:13 ◼ ► There's a variety of different screen [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6013">TS</a>]
01:40:14 ◼ ► but which is important because if you look at the car screen control landscape as we've discussed many times it's all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6014">TS</a>]
01:40:21 ◼ ► over the map and not everybody including our beloved B.M.W. Dailies touch screens at all. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6021">TS</a>]
01:40:28 ◼ ► Lexus also stopped using them recently I believe that will probably still turn that filter to Toyota if it hasn't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6028">TS</a>]
01:40:35 ◼ ► Whereas he's like a little remote dangles of some sort the remote knobs [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6035">TS</a>]
01:40:38 ◼ ► or pointer things are being very was more safe than touching the screen and certainly works a lot better. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6038">TS</a>]
01:40:43 ◼ ► So it's nice that Apple is kind of adapting to what's out there to a degree. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6043">TS</a>]
01:40:49 ◼ ► It's also not surprising that what they want is and what what this what car place seems to be is literally airplay. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6049">TS</a>]
01:40:58 ◼ ► Basically it's like it's I.O.'s is creating the entire interface as a video [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6058">TS</a>]
01:41:03 ◼ ► and streaming it to the car's engaged system and taking over the video screen to weigh or play with a simple yes or so. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6063">TS</a>]
01:41:11 ◼ ► So it's basically airplay video output at least so that Yes So Apple is taking over the screen so it's not surprising [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6071">TS</a>]
01:41:21 ◼ ► It's not surprising they got a few car manufacturers just to say we will do this in what will be news in the rest of my [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6081">TS</a>]
01:41:30 ◼ ► when a lot of cars have shipped with this because that's still up in the air that could still not happen [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6090">TS</a>]
01:41:36 ◼ ► or they could still take a long time to happen [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6096">TS</a>]
01:41:38 ◼ ► and you know if if if if a few car makers introduce it on a few of their high end models for model year twenty fourteen [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6098">TS</a>]
01:41:47 ◼ ► and the future and let's say the chart like you know B.M.W. Has a thing called B.M.W. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6107">TS</a>]
01:41:52 ◼ ► Apps if you want that in your car you can pay extra money in most cases on most of the models [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6112">TS</a>]
01:41:57 ◼ ► and so if the other manufacturers. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6117">TS</a>]
01:42:00 ◼ ► Off a car play but it's a five hundred dollar option or two hundred dollar option [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6120">TS</a>]
01:42:04 ◼ ► or if it's an option roll it cost extra money at all and it's only on certain models. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6124">TS</a>]
01:42:09 ◼ ► How long is it going to be before a lot of cars actually have this in the road and that could be a while. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6129">TS</a>]
01:42:16 ◼ ► So there's you know there's two sides as a user if you buy a car with that that's great it works for you as a developer [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6136">TS</a>]
01:42:21 ◼ ► I think it's potentially a lot less interesting for a while unless it gets a meaningful installed base. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6141">TS</a>]
01:42:28 ◼ ► I was kind of depressed by the announcement [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6148">TS</a>]
01:42:29 ◼ ► but it showed me is that like television thus far this announcement proves that cars are another area where Apple's not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6149">TS</a>]
01:42:38 ◼ ► going to be able to make things better. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6158">TS</a>]
01:42:40 ◼ ► As much as we want them to like television they have the little park and it does some things [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6160">TS</a>]
01:42:44 ◼ ► but it doesn't solve like the whole television problem [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6164">TS</a>]
01:42:46 ◼ ► and you know I go I was really hoping Apple would is go in there and solve everything like music but they're not. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6166">TS</a>]
01:42:52 ◼ ► They come into we know like television it's all scripted you ation [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6172">TS</a>]
01:42:55 ◼ ► and everything there is forever like oh god apple please save us from these terrible car interfaces [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6175">TS</a>]
01:43:01 ◼ ► Like what they're doing is saying you know please let us have access to your existing screen will you run your existing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6181">TS</a>]
01:43:08 ◼ ► software and let us take over it briefly [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6188">TS</a>]
01:43:10 ◼ ► but that's not the way that's like saying please Johnny I have a design the i Phone four S. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6190">TS</a>]
01:43:15 ◼ ► but All you get is what's on the screen. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6195">TS</a>]
01:43:17 ◼ ► We're going to tell you what's surrounding it whether there's any buttons what they look like how big it is how much it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6197">TS</a>]
01:43:23 ◼ ► But make a great product for us and as we've discussed some hits guys that are current here is was the neutral [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6203">TS</a>]
01:43:28 ◼ ► or on the show I remember it was neutral like the things that make a car interior like it's a holistic thing it's it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6208">TS</a>]
01:43:35 ◼ ► everything about it from the driving position and the visibility to how many physical controls large [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6215">TS</a>]
01:43:41 ◼ ► or how many virtual controls to how they interact with each other to the software the hardware it like it is one big [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6221">TS</a>]
01:43:47 ◼ ► and it's like unless Apple can design that entire thing they're not going to be able to ever really solve the problem [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6227">TS</a>]
01:43:53 ◼ ► and hire them because they're not a car maker the same way they can't fix television because they don't know all the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6233">TS</a>]
01:43:56 ◼ ► programming and they don't know all the television sets and you know. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6236">TS</a>]
01:44:00 ◼ ► I guess they're doing the best they can in an ideal scenario. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6240">TS</a>]
01:44:03 ◼ ► The integration required for this will shrink to some ten cent ship just like everybody has in their cars [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6243">TS</a>]
01:44:10 ◼ ► and they use that same chip to do interaction with Android and whatever else and it was like Well [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6250">TS</a>]
01:44:14 ◼ ► when you buy a car in the future whatever smartphone you have which was called phone because all phones are smartphones [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6254">TS</a>]
01:44:19 ◼ ► by this point we'll be able to throw up with you on the screen and make something out of it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6259">TS</a>]
01:44:24 ◼ ► but that interface is always going to be less satisfactory than it would be if there was one. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6264">TS</a>]
01:44:30 ◼ ► One design thought for the entire thing. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6270">TS</a>]
01:44:31 ◼ ► You can't just make some rectangle on your car and say this is the rectangle or smartphone stuff happens [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6271">TS</a>]
01:44:37 ◼ ► or maybe there's some buttons on the steering wheel that activate [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6277">TS</a>]
01:44:39 ◼ ► and do stuff like you're never going to get the right really good interface with the interaction of everything [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6279">TS</a>]
01:44:45 ◼ ► and less someone designing the whole thing and I believe car manufacturers are not thus far capable of design [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6285">TS</a>]
01:44:50 ◼ ► or thing and Apple is not allowed to design the whole thing so we're kind of stuck with this crap for now. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6290">TS</a>]
01:44:55 ◼ ► I guess you know the thing I've noticed is I had a heated [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6295">TS</a>]
01:45:00 ◼ ► but friendly debate with Dave nany in who writes the excellent software super dooper which if you don't have you should [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6300">TS</a>]
01:45:08 ◼ ► and he was extolling the virtues of the Tesla interface and I have not interacted with it myself [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6308">TS</a>]
01:45:17 ◼ ► but he was saying that it's it's extremely good and it's touchscreen done right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6317">TS</a>]
01:45:23 ◼ ► and I knew it in neutral I am quite the humanly set I hate touch screens in cars and and I stand by that to this day [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6323">TS</a>]
01:45:31 ◼ ► but I've not seen the Tesla interface and Ne Ne and among others he was the only one [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6331">TS</a>]
01:45:37 ◼ ► but he was an example of somebody came out of the woodwork saying oh my god really the Tesla interface is so good in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6337">TS</a>]
01:45:42 ◼ ► this is so bad and he in in a series of tweets that this might of been a direct message between the two of us [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6342">TS</a>]
01:45:47 ◼ ► but he said to me it's like back O. S. On the phone. Do we want that. Or another example is i O. S. On the Mac. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6347">TS</a>]
01:45:54 ◼ ► Is that really what you want and whether I'm not sure if I agree with him or not because. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6354">TS</a>]
01:46:00 ◼ ► Although I really don't like the name Car Play screens I saw I liked but his point is absolutely interesting [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6360">TS</a>]
01:46:08 ◼ ► and worth thinking about. Like is this really is this really the right answer. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6368">TS</a>]
01:46:14 ◼ ► Yeah I think the right answer has to involve more than just that screaming. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6374">TS</a>]
01:46:17 ◼ ► Just look at the little home button like the U.I. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6377">TS</a>]
01:46:20 ◼ ► Home button Why isn't there because they can't make a hardware home button like because they're confined to that little [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6380">TS</a>]
01:46:25 ◼ ► and like it said that their interest is probably going to be better than the i Pod integration the car makers have been [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6385">TS</a>]
01:46:30 ◼ ► shipping for years simply because like look it's not rocket science people can see disintegrate we gave you this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6390">TS</a>]
01:46:35 ◼ ► interface to integrate with our you know i Pods I've got it in my hand like we can you can show the track name you can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6395">TS</a>]
01:46:41 ◼ ► go next in previous track but you still did a bad you got the details wrong so just give us a screen and will do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6401">TS</a>]
01:46:46 ◼ ► and I thought and you know will the Syrian to Gratian [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6406">TS</a>]
01:46:48 ◼ ► and like in many respects as many people pointed out there are advantages over the existing systems because like now I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6408">TS</a>]
01:46:54 ◼ ► can upgrade my phone and I automatically get something better with car play and all that stuff [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6414">TS</a>]
01:46:57 ◼ ► but if for example you your car has a really slow U.I. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6417">TS</a>]
01:47:04 ◼ ► or if you buy your two hundred grand Ferrari is going to reduce the touchscreen upgrading your phone's not going to fix [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6424">TS</a>]
01:47:09 ◼ ► that with a touchscreen upgrading from not going to add a physical button [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6429">TS</a>]
01:47:12 ◼ ► and if your car you why has one touchscreen and they use that touchscreen for climate controls [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6432">TS</a>]
01:47:17 ◼ ► but then you have the car play thing out you have to get out of car play just to change the temperature [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6437">TS</a>]
01:47:20 ◼ ► and you wish that it had a knob. It's not going to fix that either. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6440">TS</a>]
01:47:23 ◼ ► So I really I really wish there was like sort of a single minded holistic approach in the race [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6443">TS</a>]
01:47:29 ◼ ► and that's why I think Dave likes this tussle so much because that's a case where the car maker does do the whole thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6449">TS</a>]
01:47:34 ◼ ► and they do concentrate heavily on touch screen type interfaces [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6454">TS</a>]
01:47:37 ◼ ► and it does come together in a manner better than most other cars [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6457">TS</a>]
01:47:40 ◼ ► but I mean the Tesla For example I think it should have more physical controls [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6460">TS</a>]
01:47:44 ◼ ► and it's definitely a version one point software and it's kind of snappy as like an actual i Pad is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6464">TS</a>]
01:47:48 ◼ ► and it's like we see the technology for all this is there is just not like the correct arrangement of the people with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6468">TS</a>]
01:47:54 ◼ ► the technology and the people who make the cars to to make it happen. Yeah. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6474">TS</a>]
01:48:00 ◼ ► I'm very very intrigued by this I think it has a lot of potential. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6480">TS</a>]
01:48:05 ◼ ► One of the things I've noticed is that to me the look of Iowa seven made a lot of sense [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6485">TS</a>]
01:48:12 ◼ ► and on screen I don't know why but I'm not that's not to say I don't that that I dislike it on either vices [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6492">TS</a>]
01:48:19 ◼ ► but I actually really really really liked the look on the Ferrari a Mercedes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6499">TS</a>]
01:48:26 ◼ ► and vile involve a video demo the bar is low I think I think there was you know I I mean I guess I should show you the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6506">TS</a>]
01:48:32 ◼ ► screen shots of my Honda view I look like if I go web page one hundred ninety five [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6512">TS</a>]
01:48:36 ◼ ► and I could make my favorite part of the Ferrari video was when the Apple raffle was demo ing it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6516">TS</a>]
01:48:43 ◼ ► She's showing that you can switch back to the Ferrari interface easily well if you want you can to happy years switch [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6523">TS</a>]
01:48:52 ◼ ► Interface but will just go right back for a second and it just looked awful and this is a brand new Ferrari. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6532">TS</a>]
01:49:01 ◼ ► and then switch right back to this nice clean Apple world because like that's not Ferrari's expertise is not in user [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6541">TS</a>]
01:49:08 ◼ ► interface design for the touch screen cars like that is not where their strengths lie [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6548">TS</a>]
01:49:12 ◼ ► and it's never going to be unlike in this respect I'm afraid like oh finally someone could take over some of the stuff [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6552">TS</a>]
01:49:18 ◼ ► but but still it's like you have. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6558">TS</a>]
01:49:19 ◼ ► Not everyone's going to have a phone or plug it in so you have to have an interface there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6559">TS</a>]
01:49:23 ◼ ► and just the standard is so low for these for these interfaces that you know they're I don't know what the solution is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6563">TS</a>]
01:49:31 ◼ ► like. Again Tesla at the very least they're taking it seriously and saying we're going to have a different U.I. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6571">TS</a>]
01:49:36 ◼ ► We're going to take ownership of it we're not just going to have some sort of generic touchscreen [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6576">TS</a>]
01:49:41 ◼ ► and we're going to have some third party write the software [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6581">TS</a>]
01:49:43 ◼ ► and put like our logo above it into different background color and call it a day. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6583">TS</a>]
01:49:47 ◼ ► I know other companies do much more than that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6587">TS</a>]
01:49:49 ◼ ► but like it's a difficult problem it's difficult on many levels to figure out what the best balance is between physical [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6589">TS</a>]
01:49:54 ◼ ► controls and touch controls and all the modern features people expect an integration of their devices so I think. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6594">TS</a>]
01:50:00 ◼ ► Our play is a step forward but it's a small one like Apple T.V. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6600">TS</a>]
01:50:03 ◼ ► Was a step forward too but it's a small one I think it's worth asking what problem this solves for everyone involved. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6603">TS</a>]
01:50:12 ◼ ► Now you know to me a lot of the audio functions of it are solved perfectly well by Bluetooth [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6612">TS</a>]
01:50:19 ◼ ► and Bluetooth is extremely convenient because when done right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6619">TS</a>]
01:50:22 ◼ ► and it's usually pretty well in cars surprisingly because there's not much to it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6622">TS</a>]
01:50:27 ◼ ► When done right I can I have you know overcast on my phone and if I'm in my house and half of a washing dishes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6627">TS</a>]
01:50:34 ◼ ► or whatever I'll play a pod cast and then if I go to my car to go to the store I get in the cart in the car on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6634">TS</a>]
01:50:40 ◼ ► and just are driving and a few seconds later my podcast are playing to the car speakers when I turn the car off. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6640">TS</a>]
01:50:46 ◼ ► It pauses and sees my position and then when I go back inside I can resume it and play inside [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6646">TS</a>]
01:50:53 ◼ ► and all that works without having to plug the phone into the car without having to wait but I mean to launch anything. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6653">TS</a>]
01:50:59 ◼ ► It just I get in the car the phone happens to your pockets always in my pocket and it just works. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6659">TS</a>]
01:51:04 ◼ ► You have a way to pause the audio yet through the car's built in wheel controls [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6664">TS</a>]
01:51:08 ◼ ► and stuff because you know because the car using the built in protocol the car can can signal basic things like play [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6668">TS</a>]
01:51:14 ◼ ► pause you know track forward packs of like that can you change playlists [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6674">TS</a>]
01:51:19 ◼ ► and stuff this is like the simplest possible scenario that you're describing where you're in the middle of an audio [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6679">TS</a>]
01:51:23 ◼ ► and you know you like what you're playing. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6683">TS</a>]
01:51:24 ◼ ► But like I don't agree that is that's a step up from what you would have heard of them before [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6684">TS</a>]
01:51:28 ◼ ► but like even a slightly more complicated snare like I'm going on a trip and I want to hear this song [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6688">TS</a>]
01:51:33 ◼ ► or this playlist that's a place where car play would have your back because it's like I know how difficult it is to you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6693">TS</a>]
01:51:39 ◼ ► know using my stupid onscreen control even if I have my i Pod plugged in to find the playlist I want to select it to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6699">TS</a>]
01:51:47 ◼ ► or disable shuffle to you know to do all that stuff with a touch screen with a touch screen with them [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6707">TS</a>]
01:51:52 ◼ ► but my stupid control is terrible and serious probably also kind of terrible but it's better. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6712">TS</a>]
01:51:57 ◼ ► I would rather shout something out to my car. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6717">TS</a>]
01:52:00 ◼ ► They don't want to play the new nothing the Bluetooth doesn't solve that at all because look it doesn't give you like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6720">TS</a>]
01:52:04 ◼ ► here that here's a visual interface to like all your playlists are all your songs now go find the one you want right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6724">TS</a>]
01:52:10 ◼ ► it's merely like a wireless version of an audio cable [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6730">TS</a>]
01:52:13 ◼ ► and so card play I think is a step up from that even if it lacks the seamlessness of you to be able to get into your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6733">TS</a>]
01:52:19 ◼ ► Oh yeah I mean for podcasts I think the difference is a lot smaller because you tend to listen to one pod cast for much [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6739">TS</a>]
01:52:25 ◼ ► longer and then you listen to one song [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6745">TS</a>]
01:52:26 ◼ ► and you tend not to have to do serious navigation to find the Podcast you want to hear at this moment like Generally [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6746">TS</a>]
01:52:32 ◼ ► you put it on whatever's on you keep listening to the hour and fifty minutes long. So it's not a bigger problem. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6752">TS</a>]
01:52:38 ◼ ► Like as music I agree you're right and obviously a lot more people listen to music than park asked [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6758">TS</a>]
01:52:44 ◼ ► but you know this just just pointing out that Bluetooth Bluetooth convenience is pretty severe competition for this at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6764">TS</a>]
01:52:52 ◼ ► the start for audio functions and Bluetooth also everywhere already. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6772">TS</a>]
01:52:56 ◼ ► Look at this in so many cars now it's you know so many new models include it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6776">TS</a>]
01:53:00 ◼ ► It's been around forever so there's so many cars already on the road with Bluetooth that it really does solve all these [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6780">TS</a>]
01:53:04 ◼ ► problems in a pretty limited but very effective way. So where where car play I think will really shine is navigation. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6784">TS</a>]
01:53:15 ◼ ► In theory but I think in practice this is still i OS maps I.O.'s navigation and trying trying to replace a car system [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6795">TS</a>]
01:53:26 ◼ ► or either trying to you know sit on top of a car system that's being ignored or be present in cars that have screens [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6806">TS</a>]
01:53:34 ◼ ► but don't have now which is not a ton of them. But you know certainly there's still there's still some. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6814">TS</a>]
01:53:41 ◼ ► And is that really what you want I mean usually a car's built in nav is not that bad [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6821">TS</a>]
01:53:47 ◼ ► and it's also all loaded all offline all you know built in ready to go it has the high precision G.P.S. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6827">TS</a>]
01:53:53 ◼ ► Transmitter on the air receiver on the car and like in my opinion the G.P.S. That's built in. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6833">TS</a>]
01:54:00 ◼ ► Two cars that have never been is usually way better and more consistent. No one the one in Iowa City. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6840">TS</a>]
01:54:07 ◼ ► Well I mean maybe in an M five that's true [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6847">TS</a>]
01:54:09 ◼ ► but I think the big advantage it has is that as your car ages assume you keep it for a while your phone will get better [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6849">TS</a>]
01:54:15 ◼ ► and the navigation presumably will get better you know what I mean whereas whatever navigation your car came with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6855">TS</a>]
01:54:19 ◼ ► that's an avocation is going to have that in my experience is what happens when I get into someone's car [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6859">TS</a>]
01:54:23 ◼ ► and it's like an eighty year old car. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6863">TS</a>]
01:54:25 ◼ ► They're not a geisha is a gross looking at they bought a modern car better [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6865">TS</a>]
01:54:28 ◼ ► but I think the key is that to do navigation Well you need to integrate with the rest of the car like Marco said from [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6868">TS</a>]
01:54:34 ◼ ► the antennas that you're getting the signal from instead of having a tiny little device inside an arm rest plugged into [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6874">TS</a>]
01:54:39 ◼ ► a cable underneath a big steel roof all way up to like you know eventually we're going to they are going to realize [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6879">TS</a>]
01:54:45 ◼ ► that you're going to want to show stuff on the hood you're going to want the navigation is no maybe areas we want to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6885">TS</a>]
01:54:49 ◼ ► know the speed from the speedometer and angle of the wheels instead of having to get that info from G.P.S. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6889">TS</a>]
01:54:54 ◼ ► and Then reckoning like there's so much more you can do when you did navigation built into the car than [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6894">TS</a>]
01:55:00 ◼ ► I'm a phone I don't have a Geisha [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6900">TS</a>]
01:55:02 ◼ ► and I can project my image on to the screen like it's it's such a weak solution to come to a common problem that cars [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6902">TS</a>]
01:55:08 ◼ ► have been solving for years on their own. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6908">TS</a>]
01:55:10 ◼ ► Well the other problem is Markos navigation in your brain U M five is excellent [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6910">TS</a>]
01:55:15 ◼ ► and the navigation in my twenty's eleventh Street series is pretty darn good. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6915">TS</a>]
01:55:19 ◼ ► I'm actually very glad I got I got a car with navigation because I was in the plan [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6919">TS</a>]
01:55:23 ◼ ► when I went looking for for use three series. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6923">TS</a>]
01:55:26 ◼ ► However even though I think the build date on the car was December twenty ten in the three years since the car's been [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6926">TS</a>]
01:55:36 ◼ ► built the local area has changed quite significantly and so if for no other reason even the you why left alone. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6936">TS</a>]
01:55:46 ◼ ► There's an extreme advantage in having your phone do your navigation because the maps get updated [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6946">TS</a>]
01:55:53 ◼ ► and I'm not talking like the you why I'm talking the actual data gets updated and I'm working right now. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6953">TS</a>]
01:56:00 ◼ ► How much it would cost to get my maps upgraded from B.M.W. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6960">TS</a>]
01:56:04 ◼ ► and I need to pay for a forty dollar in ninety cents US speak he said that just gets me to keep on top of that I need [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6964">TS</a>]
01:56:12 ◼ ► to pay two hundred four dollars and eleven cents for the actual maps themselves. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6972">TS</a>]
01:56:17 ◼ ► So I'm in two hundred fifty bucks to get an update for the nav on my car [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6977">TS</a>]
01:56:23 ◼ ► and one of these days I'll probably pony up for it because after three [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6983">TS</a>]
01:56:27 ◼ ► or four years it gets to the point that you're you're really in need of it because a lot of the streets I go to I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6987">TS</a>]
01:56:35 ◼ ► Some of the places I go to they just don't clean don't exist on the navigation in my car so that's a bummer. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/6995">TS</a>]
01:56:45 ◼ ► Additionally traffic lately as mentioned by David T. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7005">TS</a>]
01:56:49 ◼ ► Moves in the chat traffic lately is way better coming off the phone than it does my car in my car does accept [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7009">TS</a>]
01:56:55 ◼ ► or does receive traffic and it's good but it's certainly not foolproof. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7015">TS</a>]
01:56:59 ◼ ► And the with the advantages that ways brings among other things with the kind of crowd sourcing traffic reports. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7019">TS</a>]
01:57:07 ◼ ► It's almost always going to be better navigation on the phone so yeah right now your M five is wonderful [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7027">TS</a>]
01:57:13 ◼ ► but I'd be curious to see if you said that in three or four years. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7033">TS</a>]
01:57:17 ◼ ► Another example of your car aging and not doing well with the tech [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7037">TS</a>]
01:57:20 ◼ ► but like I think the root problem is right now it's unacceptable for someone's home to not have an internet connection [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7040">TS</a>]
01:57:27 ◼ ► but it's a couple of a Karsten out emanation there is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7047">TS</a>]
01:57:29 ◼ ► and I was like I don't want to pay for two wireless build out on my car to have a separate connection like that's a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7049">TS</a>]
01:57:34 ◼ ► symptom of the market the shape of the market now like what we would want is as time goes on as cars get better ones [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7054">TS</a>]
01:57:39 ◼ ► like inevitably cars need to have network connections in cars need to auto update their maps [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7059">TS</a>]
01:57:43 ◼ ► and they need to not charge like your car is old so it doesn't do this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7063">TS</a>]
01:57:46 ◼ ► and modern cars still don't have internet connections but they can get one through your phone maybe [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7066">TS</a>]
01:57:49 ◼ ► or actually we're doing the reverse here and saying no car you still can't have an internet connection [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7069">TS</a>]
01:57:53 ◼ ► but my thing that I have that has an internet connection it's allowed to spray it image up on your screen you're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7073">TS</a>]
01:57:58 ◼ ► allowed to send it in but standard. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7078">TS</a>]
01:58:00 ◼ ► Like you know not too far in the future if we ever get the stupid carrier stuff sorted out [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7080">TS</a>]
01:58:05 ◼ ► or like we have a better wireless that like cars need to have internet connections just like homes need to like what [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7085">TS</a>]
01:58:11 ◼ ► mine does. Even my twenty ten built car does and if I subscribe to like the Super Bowl or B.M.W. What is a B.M.W. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7091">TS</a>]
01:58:19 ◼ ► Assist which kind like On Star I can do basic Google location searches from the car [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7099">TS</a>]
01:58:26 ◼ ► and certainly up until Google freakin ruined Google maps recently I was able to send addresses from Google to my car [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7106">TS</a>]
01:58:36 ◼ ► which sounds silly but oh my god it's the most wonderful thing in the world. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7116">TS</a>]
01:58:39 ◼ ► And so my car has some modicum of Internet connectivity [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7119">TS</a>]
01:58:42 ◼ ► but that doesn't really terrible software right in the end you to be honest you're on a kind of different point which [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7122">TS</a>]
01:58:49 ◼ ► is it should be able to do a lot more with that Internet connection than receive extraordinarily small packets of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7129">TS</a>]
01:58:58 ◼ ► Yeah they were we see all the pieces we know what i Pads like we know what i Phones like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7138">TS</a>]
01:59:02 ◼ ► and we know all the things that could be useful to cars [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7142">TS</a>]
01:59:05 ◼ ► and it's like we have this tech it's not that expensive compared to the cost of a car. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7145">TS</a>]
01:59:10 ◼ ► We know people know how to write software to do this but they're not at the car companies [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7150">TS</a>]
01:59:14 ◼ ► and like it was going to get these guys together [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7154">TS</a>]
01:59:16 ◼ ► and that's kind of like you know we're hoping in the Apple announcement [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7156">TS</a>]
01:59:19 ◼ ► or something like maybe they will get together maybe Apple by Tesla and be able to do the whole experience [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7159">TS</a>]
01:59:23 ◼ ► but they're they're still so far apart in the things we know today are technically possible to do they're out [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7163">TS</a>]
01:59:29 ◼ ► financially feasible or just not organizationally feasible like we can on vision. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7169">TS</a>]
01:59:34 ◼ ► You know like why is the car the separate realm where we can have the nice things that we know exist. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7174">TS</a>]
01:59:40 ◼ ► Why do we have to choose between navigation and integrated with our car. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7180">TS</a>]
01:59:44 ◼ ► But it's crappy in other ways and that is you know fast and responsive and can respond to voice commands [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7184">TS</a>]
01:59:51 ◼ ► and get its maps updated all the time but is not integrated with the current anyway. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7191">TS</a>]
01:59:55 ◼ ► You know I don't see where it goes for sure. Now I'm going to be very jealous when my car can't do it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7195">TS</a>]
02:00:03 ◼ ► Cops have to give me one three the only answer I wonder to like like how how much of Car Play will will fail to be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7203">TS</a>]
02:00:12 ◼ ► useful to people who aren't totally bought into the Apple ecosystem like there's a whole lot of features in Mavericks [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7212">TS</a>]
02:00:20 ◼ ► and Iowa seven where like if you don't use a far as your browser for instance then that doesn't work right for you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7220">TS</a>]
02:00:27 ◼ ► or if you don't use by clouds reminders or calendar or whatever [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7227">TS</a>]
02:00:33 ◼ ► and so you know how much of that do you think will apply to Car Play where obviously it's very much based on SIRI [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7233">TS</a>]
02:00:40 ◼ ► and actually in you know one topic is third party apps integration with it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7240">TS</a>]
02:00:45 ◼ ► and Apple as far as I know they have not clarified whether anybody will be able to make an app that uses this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7245">TS</a>]
02:00:53 ◼ ► or whether this is partners only like Siri and it sure looks like its partners only to start at least and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7253">TS</a>]
02:01:01 ◼ ► and so you know to what degree will this be limited if you choose not to have a not to use Apple services for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7261">TS</a>]
02:01:13 ◼ ► everything or Apple's apps for everything. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7273">TS</a>]
02:01:16 ◼ ► Yeah Google Maps and I was having for example like what if I don't want to use up all that maps on whom. Right exactly. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7276">TS</a>]
02:01:23 ◼ ► Yeah I don't I think we're going to have to limit it probably you know if you realize like safety legal reasons like if [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7283">TS</a>]
02:01:32 ◼ ► you're allowed to you know we always wrote about like you can even enter the destination of where you're going to your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7292">TS</a>]
02:01:36 ◼ ► car is not moving in the car manufacturer but that into their navigation right. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7296">TS</a>]
02:01:41 ◼ ► What speed is it safe to play flappy birds on your airplane if you're you know it's only one tap it we can send that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7301">TS</a>]
02:01:47 ◼ ► over to our playwright that's really the input that'll work with the i Drive not just hit the knob the flap of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7307">TS</a>]
02:01:53 ◼ ► cover they have the case he was having the Dave in the Twitters was I recall. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7313">TS</a>]
02:02:00 ◼ ► It's growing like touch growing like it is now. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7320">TS</a>]
02:02:03 ◼ ► That's not quite as natural as you might think it would be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7323">TS</a>]
02:02:06 ◼ ► when you're in a moving car versus a button the resulting in a battle like the resist a touch screen of the Ferrari as [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7326">TS</a>]
02:02:11 ◼ ► it has that punters this terrible right. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7331">TS</a>]
02:02:13 ◼ ► But like it even without that constraint you know what's the easiest way to find something in a long list [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7333">TS</a>]
02:02:21 ◼ ► Because like scrolling through a list is great when you're looking at your phone your hand is looking with some [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7341">TS</a>]
02:02:26 ◼ ► but your eyes are on the phone the whole time when you're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7346">TS</a>]
02:02:28 ◼ ► when your eyes are supposed to be on the road you know if you flick [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7348">TS</a>]
02:02:32 ◼ ► and look back at the road look back down you're past that like maybe that's not of us [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7352">TS</a>]
02:02:35 ◼ ► and are very That's why I keep going back to Syria is what I keep telling Syria because that's what you want you want [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7355">TS</a>]
02:02:39 ◼ ► Eyes on the road but still get done what you want to get done and that's one of the strength also of knobs [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7359">TS</a>]
02:02:44 ◼ ► and dials as if they have little things you can feel them clicking you know how far you're going [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7364">TS</a>]
02:02:48 ◼ ► or you can feel so much in the ON [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7368">TS</a>]
02:02:49 ◼ ► or OFF position you don't have to take your eyes off the road it's a different environment [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7369">TS</a>]
02:02:53 ◼ ► and the things that work great and i Pads and i Phones U.I. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7373">TS</a>]
02:02:56 ◼ ► Wise don't necessarily work the same way on the phone that's why I think carpet looks so different [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7376">TS</a>]
02:03:00 ◼ ► and it is so like sort of Spartan unlimited [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7380">TS</a>]
02:03:02 ◼ ► and they keep them going serious like they don't want to say oh great now it's exactly like mounting my pad to my [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7382">TS</a>]
02:03:08 ◼ ► dashboard mounting your i Pad your dashboard is dangerous in terms of like what you can do to distract yourself [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7388">TS</a>]
02:03:13 ◼ ► and car play I think is trying very hard not to be that dangerous so that's why I would imagine it's not going to be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7393">TS</a>]
02:03:20 ◼ ► or if it is open season the things that third party apps are allowed to do through the interface is going to be so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7400">TS</a>]
02:03:24 ◼ ► limited that it's not going to allow you know before he burned up there are you know play a movie [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7404">TS</a>]
02:03:30 ◼ ► or something in the front of your car right now actually. So the new stuff that's in the Iowa seven point one S.T.K. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7410">TS</a>]
02:03:38 ◼ ► Looks like it would be a way to be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7418">TS</a>]
02:03:41 ◼ ► and whatever I can say it looks like it would be a way to have arbitrary apps be usable from the screen [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7421">TS</a>]
02:03:49 ◼ ► but only present like a structured menu kind of like your i Pod that would be you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7429">TS</a>]
02:03:55 ◼ ► or your entire interface could be the structured menu and you have a few limited things you can do. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7435">TS</a>]
02:04:00 ◼ ► But you're not you know you know just given an arbitrary view that you can do it if you want with it like put a game [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7440">TS</a>]
02:04:08 ◼ ► or bespeak a bowl like you'd probably put in some it is say if they say this that's what they mean like if they had [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7448">TS</a>]
02:04:12 ◼ ► boys and you know they wanted to be simple interface you can do some crazy thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7452">TS</a>]
02:04:16 ◼ ► and also ideally you would have touchscreen and all that you could like activate the app [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7456">TS</a>]
02:04:20 ◼ ► and say you know like they were showing you know play a song name whatever or if you open a menu of options. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7460">TS</a>]
02:04:26 ◼ ► Pick an option which is send text [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7466">TS</a>]
02:04:27 ◼ ► and then you know Katie that would send a text it was you know like that type of integration and that's what I mean. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7467">TS</a>]
02:04:34 ◼ ► It's kind of boring if you look at it you know like oh it's like it looks kind of like a car you IOW it's a bunch of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7474">TS</a>]
02:04:40 ◼ ► and the thing is sometimes it's not even it's not even a response of the expected to be because of whatever the crappy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7480">TS</a>]
02:04:46 ◼ ► host operating system of the host hardware is so it's still a far cry from the performance that experience of having an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7486">TS</a>]
02:04:53 ◼ ► i Pad in the dashboard. But you probably wouldn't want to have that anyway in terms of the U.I. The U.I. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7493">TS</a>]
02:04:59 ◼ ► and different because it's not the same as knowing I've been using it by the way I should mention that what was news to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7499">TS</a>]
02:05:06 ◼ ► me anyway I believe news to everyone was that car play will support things like the drive controller which I consider [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7506">TS</a>]
02:05:14 ◼ ► to be a tremendous win despite Dave maney and flow for touch screens and cars [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7514">TS</a>]
02:05:20 ◼ ► and I'm still of the opinion that having a physical control is a much much much better way of doing things [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7520">TS</a>]
02:05:26 ◼ ► and so having having some amount of integration with things like the I drive controller I think is very important [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7526">TS</a>]
02:05:34 ◼ ► and a very welcome bit of news that I didn't know before. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7534">TS</a>]
02:05:38 ◼ ► Oh yeah definitely and that's me too like when I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7538">TS</a>]
02:05:41 ◼ ► when I saw that the you would expect knowing Apple that easily do things you would expect they would say aren't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7541">TS</a>]
02:05:47 ◼ ► everything that we that we support has to be a touch screen period like enraged dictate that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7547">TS</a>]
02:05:52 ◼ ► and then you know to manufacture and sign up and no one else will. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7552">TS</a>]
02:05:55 ◼ ► And maybe that's why we haven't heard of it I was in the car for almost a year. Maybe they were. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7555">TS</a>]
02:06:00 ◼ ► One plan was to dictate that and they could get enough supported them [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7560">TS</a>]
02:06:02 ◼ ► and slowly backsliding finery that at that screen there and find you can do the job [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7562">TS</a>]
02:06:07 ◼ ► or put the home button on the screens as you guys can find a spot for it on your dashboard is not going to change your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7567">TS</a>]
02:06:13 ◼ ► and they were probably all saying We also want to be able to do the same with Android so nothing you do can preclude [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7573">TS</a>]
02:06:19 ◼ ► someone playing in their Android phone to do whatever the hell they're going to do for that. Right exactly. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7579">TS</a>]
02:06:25 ◼ ► I think the new stuff and seven point one It doesn't say it's work or play [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7585">TS</a>]
02:06:30 ◼ ► and it doesn't say much of anything actually there's not a lot of documentation for but the new stuff [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7590">TS</a>]
02:06:35 ◼ ► and seven point one sure looks like this is what it's for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7595">TS</a>]
02:06:39 ◼ ► and it's a way to create a hierarchy of menus for things that could be music or could be anything. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7599">TS</a>]
02:06:45 ◼ ► So that would mean that both overcast and fast text would in theory work over car play [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7605">TS</a>]
02:06:53 ◼ ► and whether it's integrated with Siri is a different story [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7613">TS</a>]
02:06:55 ◼ ► and they could be might not be might be limited in who knows. But that's that's a different story entirely. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7615">TS</a>]
02:07:02 ◼ ► We are very interested interested to see whether they do something you know he's connected apps where you have to be a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7622">TS</a>]
02:07:11 ◼ ► blast partner in order to get access and be interesting. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7631">TS</a>]
02:07:17 ◼ ► Rights can long titles menace macro's good save that action now you get to suffer and you get to hold back [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7637">TS</a>]
02:07:26 ◼ ► Well the funny thing is there's not that much to say about it really it don't know don't ask don't go there. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7646">TS</a>]
02:07:31 ◼ ► This is going to be a short topic. Don't go there. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7651">TS</a>]
02:07:34 ◼ ► The biggest thing I noticed so far is it is noticeably faster not by like an earth shaking amount as what I had before [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7654">TS</a>]
02:07:42 ◼ ► was already fast but it is noticeably faster the I was definitely faster. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7662">TS</a>]
02:07:47 ◼ ► What is most noticeable by far besides how cool it looks is how much quieter it is I mean that's like it's shocking how [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7667">TS</a>]
02:07:55 ◼ ► quiet this thing is and I have always been of the opinion the mac pros were always pretty high. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7675">TS</a>]
02:08:00 ◼ ► Why you know compared to what they were doing to any other tower P.C. That you would have. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7680">TS</a>]
02:08:07 ◼ ► but now that I have this in the same room with an across through most of his old MacPro it's a big big difference in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7687">TS</a>]
02:08:14 ◼ ► the noise and John if you want of getting one of these things which you probably won't and probably shouldn't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7694">TS</a>]
02:08:18 ◼ ► but if you do of getting one of these things that I think is what you will notice first just so it's such a big [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7698">TS</a>]
02:08:26 ◼ ► OK one eventual simming the song cycle is one of the cheese grater inevitably elegantly I want yes I'm looking for that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7706">TS</a>]
02:08:32 ◼ ► in the size like a thing of there on your desk like Next your water glass practically being the size of your house like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7712">TS</a>]
02:08:37 ◼ ► this is going to be set I mean I'll have more leg room. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7717">TS</a>]
02:08:39 ◼ ► Presumably they'll be a few were cables draped from the top to the bottom of my desk. You know I mean ice. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7719">TS</a>]
02:08:48 ◼ ► and I'm actually I'm not touching the case because I've seen take a lot of people that are like you know the covered in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7728">TS</a>]
02:08:54 ◼ ► So I pick it up by Philip goes through from the top [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7734">TS</a>]
02:08:58 ◼ ► and I set it all up I didn't touch any part of the case at the very part [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7738">TS</a>]
02:09:02 ◼ ► and I wiped that off with a microfiber cloth and this new that you hear that's a stain. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7742">TS</a>]
02:09:09 ◼ ► But you would if it was playing you know that there are the never mind titles titles. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7749">TS</a>]
02:09:16 ◼ ► I know this is one of my suggestions [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7756">TS</a>]
02:09:18 ◼ ► but I kind of like it because who suggested it Dave who thinks we just invite underscored here [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7758">TS</a>]
02:09:23 ◼ ► and Smith I didn't mean another think about it it's funny and I think that's a title that will be difficult to guess. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7763">TS</a>]
02:09:31 ◼ ► Well I guess if you know the software itself that you can guess [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7771">TS</a>]
02:09:34 ◼ ► but I find that once I didn't get it how close it is hell is other people I was held other people's code. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7774">TS</a>]
02:09:43 ◼ ► when someone buys a software product like Mars that people buy like other apps that companies don't want anymore I'm [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7783">TS</a>]
02:09:51 ◼ ► like that's like my worst nightmare getting someone else's pile of code done by under me [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7791">TS</a>]
02:09:55 ◼ ► and you know we're going to see it before and it will be like that. You know here you go. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7795">TS</a>]
02:10:02 ◼ ► You paid a lot of money for this hope you can make a good go of it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7802">TS</a>]
02:10:05 ◼ ► Hope it's not too crazy if it came with the other person and they were my flavor of the rest of their lives [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7805">TS</a>]
02:10:10 ◼ ► and I'm like What do you mean by this is what I'm doing way what is the purpose of this class. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdRsPDEM/7810">TS</a>]