00:00:00 ◼ ► Hello and welcome to episode 608 of the Connected Podcast from Relay. This episode is brought
00:00:13 ◼ ► to you by Squarespace and Sentry. My name is Mike Hurley and I am not going to introduce
00:00:23 ◼ ► Just jump right over him because he's not here. So he's easy to jump over him when he's not
00:00:30 ◼ ► this week. We're in the summer season and we're all booking in our dates and we're not going
00:00:38 ◼ ► Yeah, it is. It's a busy time. Busy time. But we're here. We're going to do a show. We've
00:01:03 ◼ ► Yeah. So I just, I don't know what to do with all of that information. You know, it's just
00:01:10 ◼ ► It's funny. So on the homepage of Relay.fm, episode 130 of Conduit, 721 of the pen addict,
00:01:33 ◼ ► That's honestly, like, incredible and also disgusting. You know? Like, that number is ridiculous.
00:01:40 ◼ ► We're not... I mean, it's still a ways away. We're not far away from a four-digit number.
00:02:10 ◼ ► You posted... I think this is just follow-up, because I think we spoke about all of this recently,
00:02:23 ◼ ► You sent this to me and Federico, and Federico said, I don't care. I don't... What did he
00:02:55 ◼ ► Yeah. I didn't want to write about that part, so I'll talk about it, but it's horrifying.
00:03:00 ◼ ► It looks really uncomfortable to me, of, like... It's basically... So you've got all the equipment.
00:03:08 ◼ ► And... But you can go and read all about it now, especially if you want links to everything,
00:03:15 ◼ ► There is... I... What looks like a bundle, a zip-tied bundle of, like, 30 cables, which
00:03:30 ◼ ► So it's Ethernet and then one fiber cable and coax. There's a coax cable in there, too.
00:03:35 ◼ ► It... That's a two-gang box. It's just completely open. It's actually got brushed... It's like a
00:03:41 ◼ ► brushed material, so spideys don't come in and out of it. So behind that wall is attic space.
00:03:48 ◼ ► My office is upstairs in our house, and that's attic space behind me. And I use that attic space
00:03:54 ◼ ► to get the cables wherever they're going in the rest of the house. A friend of mine helped me with
00:04:01 ◼ ► this project, and we did it last summer. And we sort of got to a point, it's like, if we do any more
00:04:06 ◼ ► work, we're going to die. It was so hot. And so it's a real disaster. There's basically a pile of
00:04:13 ◼ ► Ethernet on a shelf behind that wall. And at some point this winter, what I'm going to do is I'm going
00:04:19 ◼ ► to pull the umbilical out of the office, cut the cables to a more reasonable length, label them all,
00:04:26 ◼ ► and do it correctly. They all work. It's just, if I had to, like, track something down, I think right
00:04:32 ◼ ► now that I just have to run a new cable, because it's so, it's a tangled mess back there. But that's
00:04:58 ◼ ► isolating what it is would be tricky. I mean, I know what's on each end, but the middle part is
00:05:20 ◼ ► I'd never really considered this, you know. Like, obviously, people that have whole home
00:05:25 ◼ ► in ethernet, there's just going to be a lot of cables. I don't know why I just imagined it was
00:05:34 ◼ ► So, like, this same friend, I helped him wire his house. He moved recently as well, and his setup
00:05:43 ◼ ► is similar to mine, but his attic space is above where he put his network rack, and so it's just
00:05:50 ◼ ► like a sleeve of cable going into the ceiling, and you don't even really see it because his rack is
00:05:55 ◼ ► wall-mounted. Mine is not wall-mounted, just sitting on the floor, and I couldn't go up. I had to go out
00:06:03 ◼ ► through that wall, and so you see it maybe a bit more with my setup than you would sometimes.
00:06:08 ◼ ► And, you know, it's not ideal, but it's just in the office. Like, unless you're up here and you're
00:06:13 ◼ ► looking for it, you don't see it. And I made it as neat as I could, right? They're all Velcroed together,
00:06:19 ◼ ► I mean, you could just push. You know, you just push it in front, never see it. I don't know what
00:06:31 ◼ ► And that two-gang box, it was actually, like, it had, like, a coax, like, a cable connection in it.
00:06:37 ◼ ► And I didn't want to, like, cut a new hole in the wall when I already had one. You know what I mean?
00:06:49 ◼ ► It's complete overkill and silly, but it's super robust. Like, I wrote a little bit about it.
00:06:57 ◼ ► The way I have it... So I have Comcast, like, Xfinity is my main connection, but it's flaky,
00:07:03 ◼ ► because Comcast is, like, flaky no matter where you live. And I have an AT&T, like, DSL connection
00:07:09 ◼ ► as my failover. Because, like, more than ever, if the internet is down, I can't be at work.
00:07:14 ◼ ► And the DSL is cheap, and I was contractually obligated to AT&T for a while. And this setup
00:07:21 ◼ ► can, like, if the Comcast goes down, it automatically moves me over to AT&T. And Comcast comes back up,
00:07:29 ◼ ► it moves back. Now, a very funny side effect of that is, because Memphis is in the corner of Tennessee,
00:07:36 ◼ ► Arkansas, Mississippi, Comcast thinks I live in Mississippi. And AT&T doesn't. And if you're,
00:07:42 ◼ ► like, streaming Hulu or Netflix and the internet changes out from under you, it's like, oh,
00:07:47 ◼ ► wait a second, you're not in the same place. We have to stop all playback, you know? Like,
00:07:54 ◼ ► AT&T thinks I live in Tennessee, but Comcast, like, if you ping my external IP address,
00:08:06 ◼ ► Yeah. I mean, this is the problem with, like, so for instance, Blue Sky is, I think it's Blue Sky,
00:08:14 ◼ ► is blocked in Mississippi. Because, like, you know, right now in the U.S., state by state,
00:08:23 ◼ ► And so, with Blue Sky on my phone, like, just on cellular, on 5G, I can look at Blue Sky.
00:08:32 ◼ ► At home, I can't. I had to, like, I had to, like, I went through the process of, like, telling
00:08:42 ◼ ► Um, because those things, like, the state by state regulation kind of doesn't work around
00:08:49 ◼ ► the edges because ISPs don't have, it's not exact location. You know, your phone, it knows
00:08:56 ◼ ► exactly where you are. But anyway, it's a very strange side effect. But anyways, it can do
00:09:12 ◼ ► It sure does. Uh, I wanted to just mention, um, the Design in California Kickstarter is
00:09:19 ◼ ► still running. We're over halfway through now. Yeah. Um, so please go check it out if you
00:09:23 ◼ ► haven't already. We're today publishing the third episode out of four of the, um, Apple
00:09:33 ◼ ► I told Jason this last night. We were talking. I didn't tell you I helped myself to it. Sometimes
00:09:43 ◼ ► I meant to mention it to you, but forgot. Yeah. So basically what Steven's saying, he's
00:09:46 ◼ ► just, he's just yanked it all out of somewhere. Like what, where did you get it all from?
00:09:50 ◼ ► Uh, no, I haven't listened to episode four. I listened to episode three last night because
00:10:01 ◼ ► Yeah. So that's all available for Steven. And, and it will be for the time this episode's out. Episode
00:10:06 ◼ ► uh, three of that series will come out. Um, three and four are my favorites. Um, so in this episode,
00:10:12 ◼ ► we're kind of talking about what the Apple 2 is and what Wozniak's genius was, but also the other people
00:10:22 ◼ ► around that I didn't know existed. Um, who are not really in the, in the, in the, in the condensed
00:10:27 ◼ ► history. Yeah. Uh, that helped make the Apple 2 a thing. Rod Holt. Very cool. Rod Holt. Legend.
00:10:34 ◼ ► I know now. Yeah. Yeah. No, I heard you. Yeah. I mean, I heard it. I was like, yeah, that guy.
00:10:39 ◼ ► Yeah. I figure, you know, all this stuff, but, but I don't. And, uh, I think that's the benefit
00:10:45 ◼ ► for other people. Cause I'm expecting the vast majority of our listeners also do not know these
00:10:49 ◼ ► things. Yes. The, the, I mean, I know that was part of y'all's plan. Yeah. I'm not just blowing
00:10:55 ◼ ► like, I'm not just blowing smoke. Like I really believe this. The combination of Jason sort
00:11:02 ◼ ► of being the expert, he lived through a lot of it. He covered a lot of it. Like, uh, you
00:11:06 ◼ ► know, when y'all get to the iPod, like he's in the keynote, like he just scans across the
00:11:10 ◼ ► room and little baby Jason Snell sitting there. That works really well because you are newer
00:11:17 ◼ ► to this and it works in a way that, you know, if Jason and I did it, I don't think it would
00:11:24 ◼ ► work as well because we're sort of experts at the same level. Yeah. I think that there would
00:11:27 ◼ ► be an element of, and I don't, please don't, I do not mean this in a bad way for either of
00:11:32 ◼ ► you, but like trying to out expert the other one. Sure. Oh yeah. I know more. No, I know
00:11:36 ◼ ► more, which is super. No, I mean, we, these, these are the things we're all doing to each
00:11:40 ◼ ► other right now all the time. Right. But like, I mean, I just know that this is just what I've
00:11:45 ◼ ► done for so many of my shows. Like the pen addict is an example, right? Like Brad has all
00:11:49 ◼ ► this knowledge and asking questions and over time I build knowledge, but it's never as much
00:11:53 ◼ ► as he has. That's right. And so, yeah, that, that is the thing where like when I'm going
00:11:56 ◼ ► through our scripts, I'm like, I don't understand what this means or why is this important? And
00:12:02 ◼ ► that kind of helps kind of flesh it out a little bit more for the many, many, many people who
00:12:11 ◼ ► Yes, exactly. That's the thing that I've been doing for most of my career. So I can do that
00:12:17 ◼ ► part. Designing California is going to be a real show coming later on in the year. Everyone
00:12:22 ◼ ► will be able to listen to it, but you can become a member in advance basically and support
00:12:26 ◼ ► the show still through to the end of the month by going to design.fm. I wanted to talk about
00:12:33 ◼ ► betas a little bit because I've had some more experiences that I wanted to share with you,
00:12:37 ◼ ► but have you, indeed, have you changed, has it changed at all for you? Have you put anything
00:12:46 ◼ ► No, it's still just on my MacBook Neo and a secondary sort of test iPhone. And I, you know,
00:12:54 ◼ ► uh, not having on my carry phone, like I do have less experience with the Siri AI stuff than if you're
00:12:59 ◼ ► carrying it every day, I will make that switch probably sooner than I normally do on my main phone.
00:13:06 ◼ ► Um, but you know, so I've had more experience with golden gate, uh, the new Mac OS version and it feels
00:13:13 ◼ ► really solid. I really appreciate the design changes. Like at a point where like I'm using Tahoe every day,
00:13:20 ◼ ► right on my MacBook pro. And like, I already didn't like the sidebar design in Tahoe and I've like really
00:13:27 ◼ ► come to hate it because I've now seen it like, Oh, right. This is what it should have been all along.
00:13:38 ◼ ► That's positive though. I mean, like, you know, now you're seeing it worse. It means that it's better,
00:13:46 ◼ ► The same thing with the icons that they're just look so fuzzy and bad on, on like iOS 26. And then I pick
00:13:54 ◼ ► up my iOS 27 phone. It's like, Oh, like this, this looks actually really good. And so that,
00:14:01 ◼ ► that's all very interesting. And I think, uh, I think like you said, it's a sign for me, at least
00:14:05 ◼ ► that the design changes are, I think universally positive. I don't think they backtracked really
00:14:11 ◼ ► on anything in terms of aesthetic or usability. Um, and the Siri stuff on Mac OS is, is really solid.
00:14:23 ◼ ► here, um, you know, having the search and Siri kind of all combined. Um, it, it does mean though,
00:14:30 ◼ ► that I think I'm going to end up using spotlight long-term. So I used spotlight in Tahoe until
00:14:35 ◼ ► about a month ago. And I was like, I just, the friction from after using Alfred for a decade
00:14:40 ◼ ► was just still too much. So I went back to Alfred and it's great. Um, I think I'm going to want
00:14:46 ◼ ► it all combined in golden gate. And so like, do I, you know, I'm kind of questioning now,
00:14:52 ◼ ► like what I do about that. Um, maybe I don't, maybe I keep using Alfred and then I just put
00:14:58 ◼ ► spotlight as a, as a secondary keyboard shortcut when I want to use Siri AI, but, um, but golden
00:15:05 ◼ ► gate feels really good. The features are really good. And it's, you know, it's from a feature
00:15:10 ◼ ► perspective. Like, you know, there's some new stuff and notes and reminders and safari and
00:15:16 ◼ ► things, but overall, I think it's the stability, it's the design and it's the, the, of course,
00:15:23 ◼ ► Hmm. So I'm trying to be very chatty with Siri at the moment. And I'm just like trying things
00:15:33 ◼ ► out with it a lot. And I had a few experiences that I wanted to share and it really is indicating
00:15:41 ◼ ► to me just how LLM like Siri actually is now. Like the more I'm using it, the more I'm realizing
00:15:48 ◼ ► in, you know, in practice, how they have stripped out and started again, because it just doesn't
00:15:56 ◼ ► function the same as Siri used to. And it's like positive ways. So I want to give, I have
00:16:03 ◼ ► three different examples. So one was I wanted to get my step accounts. Does it have access
00:16:10 ◼ ► to my step count? Right. And I asked, and it said that it couldn't access health. I think
00:16:17 ◼ ► she said it couldn't do it. So I was like, well, okay, let me go to health. I think it said,
00:16:22 ◼ ► I think it mentioned that you can turn it on though. So I went to health and you could turn
00:16:26 ◼ ► it on with Siri. And then I asked it again and it didn't have it, but I was like, I think
00:16:31 ◼ ► I understand a little bit more about personal context. Now don't kind of like give it some
00:16:36 ◼ ► data and then immediately think it's going to have it. Right. So I gave it a little while
00:16:40 ◼ ► and I asked again, uh, and it said it didn't have access to health. Right. But I know that
00:16:57 ◼ ► Yeah. That's so annoying with LLMs of like, you point at the reduction. It's like, oh, you
00:17:03 ◼ ► know, it's like, oh yeah, I do have that. And then it was like, oh yeah, here's some examples
00:17:08 ◼ ► of things you could ask me. Like, what's my step count? Which is so funny because it's what
00:17:13 ◼ ► I wanted. So I said, great. What's my step count? And it gave me the answer. And now does
00:17:23 ◼ ► I was like, I asked it like, you know, what was my sleep like? And it gave me my, the amount
00:17:27 ◼ ► of sleep that I have. And I was like, well, but, but what, what was it like? And it couldn't
00:17:32 ◼ ► really give me any answer for that. It's like, okay, that's just not what the model does.
00:17:39 ◼ ► once I convinced it, it then knew what it needed to do. It's like, oh, I've experienced
00:17:43 ◼ ► this before with, with other LLMs. Right. Another one was, um, this, because I was, we've underscored
00:17:52 ◼ ► the last couple of days. That was where the step count one came up. And then he was like, we
00:17:56 ◼ ► were talking about this and he was like, what would it do with a locked note? Right. So I wrote
00:18:02 ◼ ► an Apple note, just like some details in an Apple note. And I asked Siri to like, I was
00:18:07 ◼ ► like, can you tell me what I put in the note called workflow note or whatever it was called?
00:18:12 ◼ ► And it gave me the information. Then I locked this note in Apple notes and asked it again.
00:18:17 ◼ ► And it said, this note is empty, but in the UI in Siri, it showed that the note was locked.
00:18:30 ◼ ► Siri AI is going out to Apple notes and it's like, what do you have for me on this note?
00:18:34 ◼ ► And Apple notes goes, I, I've got nothing for you. And so then Siri is like, well, it's empty
00:18:40 ◼ ► because it, it's, it seems like it's not completely aware of the fact that the note is locked.
00:18:50 ◼ ► that it really feels like now Siri is just going out to the system and asking for stuff and then
00:18:58 ◼ ► reporting what it gets back, which is a very different to the previous Siri where it felt like
00:19:04 ◼ ► a lot of actions with intents and stuff are very hard coded, right? Like it could do these exact set
00:19:11 ◼ ► things and either do them or not do them when now it feels like there's a little bit more negotiation
00:19:16 ◼ ► with the operating system. And another way that I've had this is that you can kind of where it's
00:19:24 ◼ ► like when you have an LLM in the middle, it can do some kind of reasoning to what you're asking.
00:19:33 ◼ ► So I have two reminders in my reminders, Apple reminders. One is to take out the bins on bin night
00:19:41 ◼ ► and then one is to collect them the next day, right? And so I took the bin out and I just said to Siri,
00:19:49 ◼ ► I've taken the bins out. That's it. I gave it no other context, no other information. I just said,
00:20:01 ◼ ► No. And then the next day I said, I've collected the bins and it marked that reminder complete too.
00:20:07 ◼ ► And I had one yesterday. I also have one to put my laundry away. And I said, I put away the washing
00:20:21 ◼ ► And so it's supernatural. And like now I'm starting to have, I'm doing something with Siri now that I've
00:20:30 ◼ ► never done before where I am talking to it naturally. I don't feel like I'm arming myself
00:20:44 ◼ ► Right. Which would not be able to do anything for you. So there are good sides and downsides to it,
00:20:49 ◼ ► right? Like the, the good side is, is this kind of like very natural conversation. But then the
00:20:54 ◼ ► downside is like, because of the architecture that enables that sometimes it gets a little confused,
00:20:59 ◼ ► but I think those things, those are all parts that can be improved upon, right? Like that's all I think
00:21:05 ◼ ► somewhat fixable with the amount of context that it gets. And also the amount of like prompting that
00:21:11 ◼ ► Apple gives it behind the scenes. It can tweak all of that. But the core of like, I can just speak
00:21:16 ◼ ► naturally to the system. It understands what I'm saying, knows what's on my phone and can act on it.
00:21:25 ◼ ► It's sort of wild to me. I mean, I know they've been working on it for a couple of years, right? But it
00:21:40 ◼ ► So in the tech talk that I went to, Mike Rockwell said that they had a version of it working last
00:21:48 ◼ ► year, but it still wasn't good enough. So that's when they ripped Siri apart. So it's only really
00:21:59 ◼ ► Yes. And having, I know the tech talk was a lot about this, but having so much of that be on
00:22:06 ◼ ► device, even though it comes with a little bit of a cost with like the 12 gigs of RAM, you know,
00:22:11 ◼ ► those phones get a little bit better model. That's what I really like about it. I like that. Yes.
00:22:16 ◼ ► Like it was trained, you know, they did the training runs and big data centers, but I like that if I'm
00:22:20 ◼ ► asking about something on my phone, most of the time it's just going to happen on my phone.
00:22:24 ◼ ► It depends. They set, sometimes they send stuff like, so say like, um, if you ask about,
00:22:30 ◼ ► they use this example, right? If you ask about some messages, you say like, what did, what did
00:22:35 ◼ ► Steven tell me about such and such? Sometimes I think most of the time, what will happen is your,
00:22:41 ◼ ► your, your phone locally finds the messages, then it sends those, just those messages to the cloud
00:22:53 ◼ ► It's not completely clear. And I think that's kind of their point of when things are done locally in,
00:22:59 ◼ ► in the cloud, because there's a bit of a combination between the two. Yeah. It'll be interesting to see
00:23:04 ◼ ► what works completely offline. Like if you're in, I have not tried any of that yet in airplane mode or
00:23:10 ◼ ► something. Yeah. I, I, I honestly, I haven't even, I don't even know if Siri walks in airplane mode yet.
00:23:17 ◼ ► I haven't, I haven't tried it. I had two thoughts on personal context. Okay. Right. So there's a lot
00:23:23 ◼ ► of questioning about our big developers going to implement this, right? There's a lot of questions
00:23:27 ◼ ► about this. Like, why would they do this? Why would they do this? And I'm, I'm wondering if
00:23:32 ◼ ► we might see more adoption of it because users will expect it, you know, like I feel like a lot
00:23:39 ◼ ► of things I'm, I'm hearing talk about is like your Instagram DMs, right? Why would meta open your
00:23:45 ◼ ► Instagram DMs to, to Siri AI? Yeah. And, and I do wonder if, if people get used to it, let's imagine
00:23:52 ◼ ► that they like it. Would it would benefit Instagram to do this? Because if people really value this as a
00:24:00 ◼ ► tool to find the things they've spoken about, they may use Instagram DMs less for that reason.
00:24:05 ◼ ► Now, I know that's like a very, there's a lot of things have to go right for that use case to be
00:24:10 ◼ ► correct. But I do think that liquid glass adoption is, is, is quite key to what, to, to this argument
00:24:19 ◼ ► that I'm making. Like Instagram has a liquid glass toolbar. I don't think anyone expected they were
00:24:25 ◼ ► going to do that. Right? Like, I think there was a lot of talk beforehand of like, there's no way
00:24:31 ◼ ► that these big cross party, cross platform apps are going to adopt Apple's redesign, but they have
00:24:48 ◼ ► I think that matters. They didn't have to do it. Right. They could have just kept like Google
00:25:03 ◼ ► I think it will be driven by, are your competitors doing it? Like then do you need to, are you being
00:25:10 ◼ ► left out of something that, that users are doing? Um, but I do think, you know, they talked a lot
00:25:15 ◼ ► about, uh, Neil Apatow has talked a lot about this on decoder and the Verge cast, but like,
00:25:19 ◼ ► are you just stripping your app for parts and like the data inside of it? And for some apps,
00:25:26 ◼ ► that's a bigger risk than others, right? Being totally just like the user never interacts
00:25:32 ◼ ► with your interface. Okay. That's a bigger problem for some apps than others. But I think
00:25:37 ◼ ► the majority of apps will support this and those that don't, you know, over time will become more
00:25:44 ◼ ► and more of an outlier. How fast that happens. I don't know. I suspect that this fall, when this
00:25:52 ◼ ► rolls out, I remember it's not in every country, not in every language. Like it will be a slower
00:25:59 ◼ ► thing to roll out, but I think you're, you know, the end of year one, year two, year three, we will
00:26:05 ◼ ► see, I think basically everyone will be there in some fashion, right? It may be that, you know,
00:26:13 ◼ ► and I don't, I don't know how, like to what level every app will do it, but I think at least basic
00:26:19 ◼ ► support will be pretty widely adopted eventually. Yeah. I think it's, you know, you said like third
00:26:25 ◼ ► party, sorry, like indie apps, they're all going to start supporting it probably pretty
00:26:33 ◼ ► I did have one second thought though, which is there's going to be so many times, there'll
00:26:41 ◼ ► Oh yeah. It's, it's gonna, threads is going to be, uh, just ask Siri this, right? Like people
00:26:47 ◼ ► will create this, like these things that you can ask it and it will obviously know the information
00:26:59 ◼ ► For sure. It's, uh, that's going to be a thing. I mean, it already is, right? Like your phone's
00:27:10 ◼ ► Is it? But is it? I mean, it is, but not in the way you think, right? Like we, we know they're
00:27:17 ◼ ► listening to us because how else would it otherwise he had the trigger words, but yeah. But I mean,
00:27:22 ◼ ► people think like, Oh, I talked to my wife about a trip to, uh, you know, Connecticut. And then I get
00:27:29 ◼ ► an ad for a Connecticut trip and Instagram. There was a good, uh, there was a good point
00:27:33 ◼ ► about that on the, on the talk show, the WBC talk show, where it's like the actual truth is much worse,
00:27:39 ◼ ► like about how they know this stuff about you. The easy thing would be they were listening.
00:27:43 ◼ ► Yes. The horrible thing is they understand how, what you're interested in based upon what you're
00:27:48 ◼ ► looking at. Like, like they just, there's an algorithm that knows exactly everything you care
00:27:54 ◼ ► about just because of some taps that you do inside of a photo sharing application for sure.
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00:29:51 ◼ ► something's happening. Oh, something's going on. So Tim Cook has given an exclusive interview to the Wall Street
00:29:59 ◼ ► Journal, essentially saying that ram prices, they're bad. He says price increases are unavoidable. We're doing
00:30:09 ◼ ► our best to mitigate the huge increases that are being passed to us. And we've been trying to shield our
00:30:14 ◼ ► customers from the increases. But the situation has become unsustainable. There's less supply at a time when consumers
00:30:21 ◼ ► want devices and the memory guys are passing along huge price increases. I've never seen anything like
00:30:27 ◼ ► it in any area in over 40 years. So I've pulled in a couple of quotes together. There is a frustration
00:30:33 ◼ ► to me in this article of like, Tim is not saying why this is happening. The idea that consumers want
00:30:39 ◼ ► devices, that's not the reason. Consumers have always wanted devices. We have no RAM because it's in all the
00:30:45 ◼ ► data centers. Like he never mentions that in this. Yeah, it's that data centers are taking it. It's also that
00:30:53 ◼ ► companies that were making DRAM have shifted what they're making in some cases. Yeah. Some companies have
00:31:02 ◼ ► exited the consumer DRAM market or creating DRAM for manufacturing to do other things more geared towards
00:31:11 ◼ ► data centers. And the two of those things together has led to this shortage, which the economy means in the
00:31:18 ◼ ► economy means RAM is harder to get and it's more expensive. Yeah. But like it's yeah, it's just funny
00:31:25 ◼ ► to me. Like, yes, this is happening, of course, but there is a reason for it. He's like, ah, don't worry
00:31:32 ◼ ► about it. Don't worry about why. But let's just think about the fact that it's happening. So obviously this
00:31:37 ◼ ► means that iPhone prices are going to go up. Yeah, this is laying the groundwork for that. Yeah. And
00:31:43 ◼ ► they're having Tim Cook do it because he's getting ready to leave. And if you're laying the groundwork
00:31:49 ◼ ► for this now, it's less of a potentially less of a thing of like, oh, we have a new CEO and the phone's
00:31:55 ◼ ► 15% more, right? Like it's smart to have Cook do this in particular. But I think there's something
00:32:01 ◼ ► bigger happening. Okay. And I don't know what it is, but it's like, I don't know if you saw, but
00:32:08 ◼ ► Trump said that he just he truthed that Apple and Intel are going to work together. Yeah. And then also
00:32:16 ◼ ► in the Wall Street Journal article, there's a whole thing where Cook is talking about Chinese RAM,
00:32:38 ◼ ► And he's like, I think he says something along the lines of he believes everything should be on the
00:32:44 ◼ ► table. And then also starts talking about like, you know, we'll use our money to solve this problem
00:32:51 ◼ ► if we have to, but what we can't do is make our own. And so I kind of feel like there is a bunch of
00:32:57 ◼ ► little things bubbling here. And I'm starting to wonder if we're going to see the impact of some,
00:33:05 ◼ ► some, some dealing happening. Maybe, Hey, you know, we're going to work with Intel. We're going to do
00:33:11 ◼ ► stuff in the US. Intel is struggling. Yes. But we also want access to some Chinese market. Yeah.
00:33:20 ◼ ► components. So he said the quote, I think everything needs to be on the table. I think we should look
00:33:24 ◼ ► at all supply. He's Tim. He's Tim Applin, you know, he's out there doing things. Yeah. So I,
00:33:30 ◼ ► this is what I'm saying when I think, and you know, he also says we're willing to use our balance sheet
00:33:34 ◼ ► to be a part of the solution. Obviously more capacity is needed, but they're not going to do it
00:33:40 ◼ ► themselves. Are they willing to use their profit margin to help offset this, which is famously high
00:33:46 ◼ ► on their hardware and astronomically high on services? Well, I think they already have been
00:33:51 ◼ ► right. But I mean, I don't have a sense for how much the prices are increasing in a way that would
00:33:59 ◼ ► affect the customer, but looking at the industry at large, everything's going up by massive amounts.
00:34:04 ◼ ► And so maybe they go up by not as, but not as much, but still go up. Right. Yeah. In this article,
00:34:11 ◼ ► it says that the Morgan Stanley estimates a 15% bump of prices of smartphones and PCs in the US this
00:34:18 ◼ ► year. So maybe Apple goes 5%, 10%, um, 12, 12, 12, 12.5. And, and Apple could do it unevenly
00:34:31 ◼ ► because they could, you know, you, maybe you want the, the 17 E to remain cheap. You want the MacBook
00:34:37 ◼ ► Neo to remain cheap and a 10% increase in a $600 product is way more noticeable than that same dollar
00:34:46 ◼ ► amount added to a $2,000 phone or a $4,000 laptop. And so this could be a sliding scale where the more
00:34:54 ◼ ► expensive products, they go up, but they're sort of spreading the pain in a way that's less noticeable
00:35:03 ◼ ► on the low end, which I think is important because everyone is affected by price increases. Everyone is
00:35:09 ◼ ► affected by inflation, but people with less money to spend on less expensive products feel it more.
00:35:18 ◼ ► And so maybe they can use their, you know, do some math there to kind of figure that out.
00:35:23 ◼ ► But I do think you're right. I do think he's angling for a change in policy and, you know, that's what
00:35:30 ◼ ► he's, that's what he's good at. Right. I mean, that's what he's going to, that's his job now.
00:35:34 ◼ ► It is literally his job. Yeah. I, my, my bet is the pro iPhone. There is no 256. It starts
00:35:42 ◼ ► at 512 and it's like a little bit more expensive, like 10% more expensive. And that's the way to
00:35:47 ◼ ► kind of smooth it out. Right. Like they did the Mac mini, they got rid of the entry level.
00:35:51 ◼ ► Yeah. I think that's going to be, I think that's going to be key. Whether they do, I don't think
00:35:59 ◼ ► Maybe, maybe. Yeah. Because like, even he says, like, it's not just RAM, it is also storage. Like
00:36:04 ◼ ► I know that's like a, a thing, but yeah. Anyway, what a time to be introducing what will probably be
00:36:09 ◼ ► the, well, no, what will be the most expensive iPhone of all time. Yes. But now by what level?
00:36:43 ◼ ► I don't know if I'm, I don't know if what I, if I think it will be more expensive than that,
00:36:47 ◼ ► the folding phone. I think probably around two grand, but I don't know if it starts at two grand,
00:36:53 ◼ ► you know? Yeah. Yeah. I could imagine like 17 or 18.99 or something like that. Yeah. It's kind of
00:36:59 ◼ ► like the most expensive Pro Max or the entry level fold or close. Yeah. But then the more expensive fold
00:37:10 ◼ ► Me neither. I just like refreshed the store page because I was looking at the Pro. I was like,
00:37:14 ◼ ► oh wait, I think the Pro Max is more. I was like, oh boy. My word. I mean, obviously that is a very
00:37:20 ◼ ► specific person and it's like, it's good that they offer that phone for that person, but wowsers.
00:37:25 ◼ ► So yeah, it's all good. Basically expect your iPhone to be more expensive, a bit more expensive,
00:37:33 ◼ ► right? Like we're not doubling the price of the phone, I don't think, but like, it's going to be
00:37:37 ◼ ► probably a three figure number more expensive, which is still big money. It is. But my, my thing
00:37:43 ◼ ► here is I, I think something's, I think something, I think some deals are trying to be done and I think
00:37:48 ◼ ► he's talking in public on purpose. Tim Cook does not give interviews, right? No. Even outside of
00:37:55 ◼ ► cycle. Yeah. Even to the Wall Street Journal, which is their, usually their preferred outlet for
00:37:59 ◼ ► messaging like this. Like this would be an easy thing to just slip to Mark Garvin, right? Or,
00:38:07 ◼ ► or, you know, but this is very rare that this kind of stuff happens. So they clearly want to start
00:38:15 ◼ ► signaling it now. So people get ready for it, especially, you know, you've got like three
00:38:19 ◼ ► months. Um, so, but I, I still think that there, the timing of things just seems mighty convenient to
00:38:25 ◼ ► me. Yeah. Okay. So for a little while I've wanted to review the iPhone air and I recently switched
00:38:34 ◼ ► back to it. So here we are just in time, just in time. The iPhone air is a phone that I love that
00:38:42 ◼ ► I shouldn't love, but I do. Secret love, you could say. Sure. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh, I recently switched
00:38:54 ◼ ► back to it. So in the fall I had a pro and an air because I needed a, a phone for, uh, work stuff with
00:39:03 ◼ ► underscore. I was like, well, I want to review both these phones and talk about both these phones
00:39:08 ◼ ► because they're both really interesting. So I sort of bit the bullet into both. I use the air
00:39:12 ◼ ► for a couple of months and then switch to the pro. And that's what I've been using until recently.
00:39:17 ◼ ► Um, cause like every time I pick up the iPhone air off my desk for something for work is like,
00:39:22 ◼ ► I really like this. Um, I really like this phone. And so I was like, you know what? It's June.
00:39:31 ◼ ► We're now what? Three months from the end of the cycle. I was like, I should, I should use this phone
00:39:37 ◼ ► because who knows what I'm going to, you know, who knows what I'm going to want to do in the fall.
00:39:40 ◼ ► So, uh, and you have one as well for similar reasons. It is not your exact reason. It's not
00:39:47 ◼ ► your daily. No, but you spend a lot of time with it. A lot of time. Yeah. Yeah. So do you,
00:39:54 ◼ ► what, before I get kind of get into the detail, what is sort of your overall feeling about the air?
00:39:59 ◼ ► Um, I think it feels great to hold obviously, right? It's just a treat to hold that thing.
00:40:07 ◼ ► It's very light, very thin. I don't, you put a case on it so I get the full maximum benefit from it.
00:40:17 ◼ ► I want all the cameras. Yeah. Yeah. That's the weakest part. I think the battery life is not a
00:40:23 ◼ ► problem for me really, because in my life, I'm typically around charging. And when I'm not,
00:40:31 ◼ ► I have a solution. You know, I either have a max a battery or I have, you know, I've got my backpack
00:40:38 ◼ ► and it's got a cable in it. Right. And it's also USB-C, which is, you know, it's easy enough to find
00:40:43 ◼ ► and stuff and wireless charging. So like the battery is not an issue for me, but the, the camera is
00:40:51 ◼ ► definitely a problem. I like how big the screen is and how easy it is to hold. I think that combination
00:40:56 ◼ ► is very nice. I do too. Right. Like, like I don't long for that screen size when I then use my pro,
00:41:03 ◼ ► but when I'm using the air, it's like, Oh, I really like this. And it's because I, I find the pro
00:41:10 ◼ ► less comfortable to hold than the air, even though it's smaller. Right. And, and so I wouldn't want
00:41:17 ◼ ► my pro to have a bigger screen because then I know I wouldn't enjoy holding it. And so I, you know,
00:41:24 ◼ ► it's like, I don't, I don't long for it so much, but then when I'm using the air, I'm like, Oh,
00:41:28 ◼ ► this is a nice treat. Uh, I really liked the screen size. Actually it's 6.5 inches. It's right in the
00:41:37 ◼ ► middle between the pro and the max. And the pro max is, I haven't used one, used one, but it's too
00:41:45 ◼ ► big. Like it's, it's just too big. Yeah. I saw one at WWDC. Like obviously I saw a few actually like
00:41:51 ◼ ► people using them and I feel like I'd forgotten. And it's like my word that is unbelievable. It's big.
00:41:57 ◼ ► Uh, the, and the pro feels a little tight to me. Maybe it's because I used an air first and then
00:42:03 ◼ ► went to the pro, but the 6.5 inch on the air is like, I'd like the real estate. Now it is made
00:42:11 ◼ ► better. It's Goldilocks size. It is. It's right in the middle. Just right. Just right. But the thinness
00:42:17 ◼ ► and lightness helps with that as well. Like, would I feel the same way if it were as thick as a regular
00:42:23 ◼ ► iPhone? Like I don't, I don't know, but the combination is really good. The, um, the thinness
00:42:29 ◼ ► and lightness for me has not worn off. In fact, sort of the opposite has happened. Like it still
00:42:35 ◼ ► feels really sort of bonkers that it's an iPhone. And then I pick up a regular phone, like my wife's
00:42:43 ◼ ► iPhone 17 or my iPhone 17 pro and it feels ridiculous in comparison, uh, both thickness and
00:42:52 ◼ ► weight. And the air actually isn't that much lighter than the regular iPhone 17. Like they're fairly
00:42:58 ◼ ► close, but the combination of the thinness and the lightness really makes those other phones feel
00:43:04 ◼ ► dense in a way that is sort of strange. Yep. Sort of strange. Um, but yeah, the camera is the,
00:43:12 ◼ ► the biggest drawback. And for me, it's, it is the quality, like the quality, it's the same camera,
00:43:20 ◼ ► I believe is the iPhone 17, but the 17 pro is, is a noticeably better camera because it feels that way.
00:43:26 ◼ ► Um, but it's, for me, it's the options that hurt. And for me, I would rather have zoom than ultra
00:43:34 ◼ ► wide. Okay. And so the iPhone 17 having ultra wide and the rumor that the iPhone air two is going to
00:43:42 ◼ ► pick up ultra wide. Um, that also kind of bums me out cause I prefer zoom. Uh, what do you think
00:43:49 ◼ ► about that? Are you, are you team ultra wide or team zoom? If you, if you could get just one more
00:43:54 ◼ ► on an air. Well, there's like an asterisk, right? I, I prefer a zoom camera, but the ultra wide lets
00:44:01 ◼ ► me take pictures of things that are closer. Yeah. There's no macro mode. And the main sensor,
00:44:06 ◼ ► the, the kind of minimum focal length, I don't know if I'm using the right phrases, but I think
00:44:11 ◼ ► people understand what I mean. It's just not right. Like I, I, I take pictures of things that are close
00:44:16 ◼ ► to me all the time. I don't like the quality of the ultra wide in that scenario, but at least I get a
00:44:21 ◼ ► photo. Um, and I, and I find that to be a problem with the air, but from a usage perspective, like
00:44:28 ◼ ► the camera that I choose to use and gives me like perceived utility is the zoom lens over the ultra
00:44:35 ◼ ► wide. Yeah. Yeah. The lack of macro mode and yet the minimal focus distance, which is they used it
00:44:42 ◼ ► correctly. Uh, it's, it's, it's pretty rough. I just actually just like the other day need to take
00:44:48 ◼ ► a picture of a label on something to send to Mary. And I sort of like put the phone as close as I would
00:44:56 ◼ ► need it on a regular phone. I was like, Oh, the air is like, it cannot do this. Like you have to back
00:45:02 ◼ ► it up and that's, um, it takes some getting used to. And I think for most people, the battery life in
00:45:10 ◼ ► the camera, maybe the battery life more. Cause I'm like you, like I work at home. I could charge it
00:45:15 ◼ ► basically whenever I want. I have a charger in my truck. I bought the battery, the MagSafe battery,
00:45:21 ◼ ► and it is very handy sometimes to, to have that available to you. But the, the camera, like for me,
00:45:29 ◼ ► that's what sort of puts me on the edge of it. And there, there've already been a couple of times
00:45:33 ◼ ► switching back to it that I've thought, Ooh, look, I'm not, I didn't really get the picture
00:45:38 ◼ ► or video that I wanted because of the phone. Right. Not, not because of that. That is like,
00:45:44 ◼ ► I can't live like that. It hurts. It hurts a little bit. Like, especially where I am at the moment in
00:45:51 ◼ ► my life is like prime photo time. Oh yeah. And, and so I want the best images I can get. I mean,
00:46:00 ◼ ► within reason, right? Like I want the best images I can get from an iPhone. Like I'm going to be
00:46:04 ◼ ► carrying around DSLR all the time, but, uh, and so knowing, yeah. So I just can't, I just can't make
00:46:12 ◼ ► that, that choice, you know? Yeah, no, I get it. Um, for sure. And the, that maybe that's one reason I
00:46:21 ◼ ► prefer the zoom is in my stage of life, it's taking video at a track meet or trying to get
00:46:31 ◼ ► a picture of my kid in the school play. Right. And that's where the zoom is really useful
00:46:35 ◼ ► and where the air just really falls apart because it has the two X, but it's, you know, it's the same
00:46:41 ◼ ► two X you get on the main shooter. It's like, no, you really want the, the, the actual zoom lens to,
00:46:46 ◼ ► really punch in. And, uh, that's a, that's a bit of a bummer. You know, it is like you are making
00:46:53 ◼ ► real trade-offs to have something so futuristic, but every time I pick it up or slide it in my pocket,
00:47:03 ◼ ► I get a little, like, this is really cool. Like, I really liked this. And that's a, that's a very
00:47:09 ◼ ► strong pull. Um, and you know, this is really good consumer advice given that the phone's been
00:47:16 ◼ ► out nine months, you know, it's a really good time to review, but you know, uh, I would say like,
00:47:22 ◼ ► even in the store, picking it up and playing with it, which is the vast majority of people's
00:47:28 ◼ ► experience with the iPhone air. Like I know from widget Smith stats, the iPhone air is not popular.
00:47:33 ◼ ► like it is not going well. And, uh, that's a bummer and sad, but living with it really is
00:47:40 ◼ ► different than just playing with it in the store because it's when you put it in your pocket, it's
00:47:45 ◼ ► when you go for a walk and it's in your pocket and you don't feel the weight. That's when it feels
00:47:49 ◼ ► magical and like the future in a way that is hard to sort of understand in, you know, a couple minutes
00:47:56 ◼ ► of, of, of a demo. But like, what is this going to end up resulting in for you long term? Do you
00:48:02 ◼ ► think? I see that's where I sort of, I don't know because I, I don't know if the ultra, you know,
00:48:13 ◼ ► the foldable phone is going to be for me in terms of like what I want to use every day. I just don't
00:48:18 ◼ ► know. And it's going to have probably very similar trade-offs to the air, right? Potentially battery
00:48:26 ◼ ► life, potentially camera quality or options. And Apple's insistence, if you have a second camera
00:48:32 ◼ ► being the ultra wide again, like I don't, I would prefer. Why do you think that they do that?
00:48:37 ◼ ► I think because it unlocks things like macro mode and I would imagine they've got the data that
00:48:43 ◼ ► they must know, right? Ultra wide is popular. They wouldn't just put like the least popular
00:48:48 ◼ ► camera on there. Like the kids are doing the 0.5s, you know? Yeah. I mean, it could be a combination
00:48:53 ◼ ► of that and what you mentioned, right? Of like, it could be because of the closest, both things,
00:48:57 ◼ ► like whatever the reason. I also think if you want to upsell somebody to a pro and the camera really
00:49:04 ◼ ► matters to them, like, oh, it's the one with the zoom is a pretty good upsell, pretty good reason
00:49:16 ◼ ► Maybe. I don't know if they think about that. Maybe they do. Like the air is expensive.
00:49:22 ◼ ► It is. Like maybe that works more on the regular phone, but still, are they, are they putting the
00:49:28 ◼ ► least popular sensor in it? Who knows? But this might be one of those things where like what people
00:49:34 ◼ ► think they want and what they actually end up using more are different. And the reason might be just
00:49:40 ◼ ► because they haven't got a good enough main camera, but whatever the reason, the result is one way or
00:49:46 ◼ ► another. Yeah. But I do think whatever happens, I don't, I don't know if the iPhone air is forever
00:49:55 ◼ ► for this world. Like it has the same problem that the mini and the plus have that is not selling well.
00:50:03 ◼ ► you know, we just miss a big app. We've got a lot of users. Like it's a pretty good representation of
00:50:08 ◼ ► the market in terms of, especially the wide consumer market. Yes. And I mean, the iPhone air is behind
00:50:16 ◼ ► devices that have not been supported by iOS for a couple of years. Like it's a smaller use than the
00:50:22 ◼ ► iPhone 10 R when it comes to which users. Oh my God. That's horrible. It's not, not ideal. Um,
00:50:29 ◼ ► so what is its place, right? Is, is Apple content to have a regular phone, two pros and the foldable?
00:50:39 ◼ ► Like I could see that being the iPhone lineup, right? I think in a lot of way that makes a lot of sense
00:50:43 ◼ ► for that to be the iPhone lineup. And so does the air, uh, the road to the foldable and eventually
00:50:51 ◼ ► more phones will be like the air in terms of thinness and lightness. And it's just like,
00:50:56 ◼ ► is it like the first MacBook air? It's like, Oh, this is so far out in front. It's kind of a bad
00:51:01 ◼ ► product, but people who love that Mac first MacBook air loved it. But you know what happened?
00:51:07 ◼ ► Every laptop is like the MacBook air now, basically, right? They're all thin and light.
00:51:11 ◼ ► Is that what's going to play out here over time? I think probably, but I think in the meantime,
00:51:18 ◼ ► the iPhone air may go away or, or may continue to sort of bump along at the bottom of usage stats and
00:51:25 ◼ ► be a weird set of trade-offs. Like, like the people that I know who use iPhone airs, and I know a couple,
00:51:39 ◼ ► right? So I don't know. The future of it is murky to me, but I do think while it's here,
00:51:53 ◼ ► I don't know though. Like I get that, I get that impulse, but iPhones keep getting thicker.
00:52:03 ◼ ► Because I feel like the ideal scenario is they get thinner, but people like good cameras and big
00:52:12 ◼ ► batteries. And I think they value that more over the thinness. And I think that's shown in the fact
00:52:17 ◼ ► that the iPhone air didn't, didn't succeed. Yeah. It's like, ideally, yes, they would get super thin
00:52:23 ◼ ► and light, but I think even in a scenario where the battery technology improves, I'm not sure that
00:52:28 ◼ ► they're going to make it that much thinner because then they can put more other stuff in the, in the
00:52:31 ◼ ► box. Right. And because there, there's trade-offs with the, the way the iPhone air is designed where,
00:52:36 ◼ ► you know, most of the compute part is up in the plateau and the camera sticks out a lot,
00:52:42 ◼ ► even from the plateau. You just have one camera partially because under where the second camera
00:52:48 ◼ ► would be is logic board. It's like, that's where the computer lives. And boy, does the bottom of the
00:52:53 ◼ ► plateau, like the bottom edge get hot. Like a little toasty. If you, for some reason, all phones are like
00:53:02 ◼ ► this, but if you edit your lock screen for a while, your phone really heats up. Like, I don't know what
00:53:05 ◼ ► it's doing. I don't know why that system is so intense. It's true though. The OS. It's always been.
00:53:12 ◼ ► And that way it's, it's wild. Definitely. By the way, they did add the new extend feature
00:53:18 ◼ ► to the lock screen. So, you know, like the, the extended image. Yeah. It's just built into
00:53:25 ◼ ► the lock screen. Now extend the extend image option in the lock screen performs that action.
00:53:34 ◼ ► The, uh, yeah. So the trade-offs are real. It's compelling. Um, but it's definitely not,
00:53:45 ◼ ► not perfect. And I, I, I keep just coming back and not because of the name, but I do keep coming
00:53:50 ◼ ► back to that first Mac book error that there were severe trade-offs with that laptop in terms
00:53:56 ◼ ► of performance in terms of livability. Like you got weird ports under a weird door. Like
00:54:01 ◼ ► that's strange. Um, you, it was the first Mac book to ditch the optical drive, which sounds
00:54:07 ◼ ► silly now, but in 2008, it was a real thing, like a real big change in 08. Apple had to invent
00:54:16 ◼ ► things like the remote desk software is like, Oh, you could put your, your, your install CD in
00:54:29 ◼ ► there was a hack to it. Cause it, it was only enabled for the Mac book air at first, but there
00:54:37 ◼ ► was a hack to get it to work on other machines. And it was important for me because in that era,
00:54:43 ◼ ► like like 2010, I guess I was using a Mac book pro that I had taken the optical drive out and
00:54:49 ◼ ► I put an SSD in. So it had a small SSD in the optical drive bay and I kept the factory hard drive
00:54:56 ◼ ► in so I could boot from the SSD, but have like bulk storage on the drive. It was a real time to be
00:55:01 ◼ ► alive, man. Yeah. I remember all that stuff. Yeah. There was like OWC, like sold parts that like
00:55:07 ◼ ► screwed into where the optical drive was. Yep. Um, yeah. I ran an Apple product that for a long time
00:55:12 ◼ ► and most surprised even. Yeah. Right. Um, and at that point someone had like figured out how to
00:55:17 ◼ ► install remote desk on other Macs. So that was very useful to me as someone who did not have an
00:55:21 ◼ ► optical drive in their computer. Very helpful until what was it? Lion when they started putting it on
00:55:25 ◼ ► the USB keys. Yeah. Just Lion actually. Cause then it was download only. Just download only. I've got
00:55:32 ◼ ► one of those. It's like a prize. Again, not surprised. Yeah. When you do your Lion episode, call me.
00:55:39 ◼ ► Yeah. You just send us to this. We just look at it. Like, Ooh, look at the USB key. Ooh, it's so tiny.
00:55:44 ◼ ► Many, many, many years into the future. Yeah. That's a low priority episode. We want to do all the OS
00:55:52 ◼ ► 10s, I think is the plan, but we're not going to do them all at once. No. Yeah. Lion is when they
00:55:58 ◼ ► took a bunch of ideas from iPad OS and just slammed them into the Mac. Was that back to the Mac? It was.
00:56:05 ◼ ► It was back to the Mac. So yeah. So that's the iPhone air. It's flawed, but I love it. But sometimes I'm
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00:58:03 ◼ ► So there was a topic that I was seeing a lot on the internet in the last day or two, which is the
00:58:10 ◼ ► snap specs. I think if you've been on social media, you've seen these things. And I thought to myself,
00:58:17 ◼ ► man, this feels like a mess to talk about. I don't, I thought about talking, bringing it to the show
00:58:23 ◼ ► and then was like, I don't want to. And then I opened the Notion document and you'd written a lot.
00:58:28 ◼ ► All right, we'll talk about it. I'm going to read some more articles. Yeah. Cause it's just one of
00:58:33 ◼ ► these things where it's like, I just don't know if anyone really has anything good to say. And so
00:58:39 ◼ ► it's like, I just, I wasn't really, I didn't really have a, an, a take, but going through some
00:58:46 ◼ ► articles, I developed some takes. So. Yeah. So this is the snap specs. Yep. Uh, they're AR glasses.
00:58:56 ◼ ► Yeah. And they're going to be 2200 bucks. Yep. A lot of money. They look ridiculous, which we'll get
00:59:03 ◼ ► to. Yep. But from the technology and product perspective, I do think there's some interesting
00:59:08 ◼ ► things to talk about. Okay. Cause at first I felt like you did. It's like, well, I mean, yeah, like
00:59:13 ◼ ► we would just dunk on them and that's, that's fun sometimes, but it's not a topic. Right. And we,
00:59:17 ◼ ► we want to be fun and positive. There is, I would say shockingly little coverage about what they do
00:59:25 ◼ ► because of the looks. Yeah. Like I, when you go to their website, they have examples of like,
00:59:31 ◼ ► these are things you can do. Yeah. And it feels like no one's really talking about what it can do,
00:59:41 ◼ ► Yeah. So they are standalone AR glasses. So that they made a point of like there, you don't have
00:59:50 ◼ ► like a cable running over your ear to like the compute module in your pocket or a battery in your
00:59:54 ◼ ► pocket, you know, looking at the vision pro. And it's not like beaming everything from the Snapchat
00:59:59 ◼ ► app, right. Snap app on your phone or whatever. Is that, that the case? Like it's not. Yeah. It's
01:00:04 ◼ ► like a standalone computer. Okay. And unlike what meta is doing, which is like a fixed display in one
01:00:12 ◼ ► of your, in one of the lenses, these are full on AR displays. So they can do things like, I mean,
01:00:24 ◼ ► you know, one of the, one of the, one of the classic examples of AI is like, take a picture of these
01:00:29 ◼ ► ingredients and tell me what to make for dinner. That's a stupid example. Like no one is living
01:00:33 ◼ ► life that way, but Mark Gurman keeps repeating it. One cool thing about AR I actually think is cool
01:00:41 ◼ ► is I'm walking in a city I'm unfamiliar with. Give me directions. Right. Do you remember when that,
01:00:46 ◼ ► when turn by turn came to the Apple watch, maybe it was there from the beginning, but I remember the
01:00:52 ◼ ► first time like navigating a city I wasn't familiar with just with my watch. And it felt like the future.
01:00:58 ◼ ► So I didn't have to be looking down at my phone, right? It would just tap me and I could glance
01:01:03 ◼ ► at my wrist and say, okay, you're going to turn left here. It's a fantastic use for the watch. One
01:01:08 ◼ ► that I still use when I travel, honestly, like all the time. I mean, not all the time. I don't travel
01:01:12 ◼ ► very much, but when I travel, I use it. Hmm. So one of the things this can do is, is provide AR
01:01:18 ◼ ► directions. Um, another thing it can do is provide AR answers. So one of the examples they give
01:01:23 ◼ ► is, um, where does the coolant go in this car? And like, as a car person, I understand what it's
01:01:31 ◼ ► doing. Is it looking for like basically the universal label for like coolant goes here.
01:01:36 ◼ ► But for someone who doesn't know that, who is intimidated by things like that, it's compelling.
01:01:42 ◼ ► Now, how good is that? How good is the model they're using for that? Like who knows, right? That's
01:01:51 ◼ ► Their, their set of demos are like the greatest hits of AR glasses, right? It's like that one that
01:01:58 ◼ ► you just mentioned. That's the hollow lens one. Yes. Right. Like here's how to fix the sink. Right.
01:02:04 ◼ ► Uh, and then they've got watch a YouTube video, right? There's a bunch of vision pro like things
01:02:12 ◼ ► in here. Um, you know, like there's a lot of apps and experiences, there's games. Uh, I thought one
01:02:20 ◼ ► was pretty cool. I don't know why anyone would need this, which is, you know, but like someone's
01:02:23 ◼ ► playing basketball and it's showing them like the trail of the ball into the hoop, which
01:02:27 ◼ ► is like, it's an interesting thing you can see. So there's like a lot of like things you've
01:02:32 ◼ ► seen in other places, but this is in full AR glasses, which is, which is different, right?
01:02:37 ◼ ► Like untethered AR glasses as opposed to, you know, the vision pro or something like it.
01:02:44 ◼ ► And the technology to do this, like the actual lenses and the way the displays work is,
01:02:59 ◼ ► like in-house by snap. Like they, they have like engineers, like hardware engineers working on this
01:03:06 ◼ ► stuff, which is really fascinating because I don't think about snap as a product company in that way.
01:03:12 ◼ ► Right. Partially because I'm too old to use Snapchat and I don't own any glasses that are smart.
01:03:19 ◼ ► And so like, I just don't think about them as a company that I don't know, like has engineering
01:03:24 ◼ ► at this level. Um, but clearly they do. And some of the specs on the display are pretty interesting.
01:03:33 ◼ ► they say that the result of this is comparable to a 24 inch desktop monitor when you're working. So like sitting in front of an iMac, right? Um, or 115 inch cinema display cinema screen placed 10 feet away when you're watching a movie, which is sort of like this. It sounds stupid when you talk about it, but this is sort of like the vision pro. Like sometimes what you're working on in the vision pro is small and in front of you.
01:04:01 ◼ ► But then sometimes it's immersive and really big, right? They can pull off that same effect because they are using more of the lens as a possible display. Um, which is pretty cool. And again, it's all built in.
01:04:18 ◼ ► What do you think the quality of the screen is like the image is like, do you think, you know, that's so hard to tell because everything they show like in their press materials, like how real is it? Like, is that captured from the glasses? I think in some cases, like the car, like the car example, the video is kind of grainy and not super sharp.
01:04:47 ◼ ► And it's like, well, if this was a render, wouldn't you make it look better? So maybe that's actually captured from the glasses, but you know, how does it look in low light? How does it look in bright sunlight? You know, if, um, if you have like a lot of contrast behind you, just part of the image disappear, you know, even in the vision pro with pass through, you run into that a little bit.
01:05:13 ◼ ► But with the vision pro, you can dial that out, right. And just be on the moon and be typing your blog post this, because you're always seeing the world behind you.
01:05:22 ◼ ► They have to account for a lot of variation in that. And, you know, um, it's not good. I don't, I don't think it's going to look as good as, as the vision pro can look on its best days, but I think it may have some of the same downsides.
01:05:37 ◼ ► Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I feel like just like coming in, it's just not gonna, you know, like, I just think there's going to be a lot of light coming in when you're looking at something.
01:05:53 ◼ ► Yeah. But like, there's an example in their blog post. Um, you're standing at a street corner and you're looking at a building and it's telling you it's a restaurant and the person turns and the light is coming from their right side.
01:06:07 ◼ ► And there's a tele, there's like a telephone pole or like a light pole with like the crosswalk thing on it. And the right side of it, where the sun comes in, it's completely blown out. Like it just disappears in the image. It's so much brighter than everything else.
01:06:21 ◼ ► And, you know, is that a side effect of the method it was captured with? Is that how it actually looks like when there's interface up? Like, is it, is it dimming the reward a little bit? So you run into these strange things? Like, I don't know. That's where reviews are going to come in.
01:06:36 ◼ ► And I suspect like vision pro reviews a couple of years ago, reviewers are going to have a hard time sharing with their audience what it is actually like.
01:06:50 ◼ ► You know what I mean? Like remember the vision pro reviews, it was like, Oh, like using one was different than watching a review of somebody using one. And I think this will suffer from the same thing.
01:07:00 ◼ ► I, I, you know, I know that you can never really know these things, but it's not super encouraging that they didn't appear to have any hands on demo.
01:07:10 ◼ ► So it's not great. It's not a great, and people know this too, right? Like, even if you weren't planning on it, you know that if you don't do it, even if everything's fine, people are going to be like, I don't know.
01:07:22 ◼ ► And so like, if you don't do it, it tends to be a signal that things aren't hunky dory.
01:07:42 ◼ ► The trade-offs with this product of what clearly was like, we want it to be all built in like the battery.
01:07:58 ◼ ► So one for computing, one for like the visual pipeline, but to do all of that with any sort
01:08:12 ◼ ► You know, like if you put a shirt to the dryer that shouldn't go through the dryer and it comes
01:08:21 ◼ ► And there's all these pictures from the event with the guy wearing them and his ears are like folded
01:08:29 ◼ ► So the imagery on the website where they've got models and celebrities to wear them, they
01:09:08 ◼ ► And Vic Song at The Verge wrote about this and, you know, she is a wearables reviewer, right?
01:09:29 ◼ ► And she said that in research that she's done, most, like an optician will say that most people,
01:09:58 ◼ ► Like it's just, again, and so this, the reason I want to mention it is to go back to like the no hands-on thing.
01:10:10 ◼ ► There's no world in which the people making this product are not aware of all the things that we're becoming aware of, right?
01:10:29 ◼ ► And I find sometimes this kind of product announcement is very interesting because it's like, they know as well things we don't know.
01:10:36 ◼ ► And I think things we don't know is maybe they don't work very well right now, but like they're kind of making it happen.
01:10:42 ◼ ► But you kind of just have to do it and go through with it because you've, you've, you're at a certain point you have to ship them.
01:10:58 ◼ ► Which is also like a bigger thing to me of like, we're in such an interesting point right now for the next hardware platform.
01:11:06 ◼ ► Like it's very clear that like a lot of companies want it to be some kind of wearable, right?
01:11:38 ◼ ► And importantly, it was also so much better than everything else that it was replacing at doing the things that it did.
01:11:49 ◼ ► None of these devices, I don't know if they will ever get close enough to being better than what an iPhone is.
01:12:16 ◼ ► Like there is something in this, but it's just such a complicated thing because they have to start shipping stuff so they can make them better.
01:12:26 ◼ ► So, you know, like the Meta got closest with the Ray-Bans and now people don't like those anymore.
01:12:36 ◼ ► But then they have their Ray-Ban display and no one would want to wear those either because they're also still too big and chunky.
01:12:55 ◼ ► And it looks, during the whole interview, every time he moves his head, you can see the displays, right?
01:13:03 ◼ ► There's like, when light hits the glasses, you can see that there's a display in these glasses.
01:13:10 ◼ ► I think something that, this is Spiegel talking, I think something that people are really looking for in this moment, where they feel like screens are distracting them.
01:13:19 ◼ ► People are spending, on average, more than seven hours a day staring down at screens instead of connecting with their friends and staying present in the world.
01:13:26 ◼ ► And we think specs offer a totally new opportunity to bring computing into the world around you and help computing feel more human and more personal.
01:13:53 ◼ ► You can't sell someone a product that's supposed to be in their lives for every moment they're awake, attached to them physically, and tell them it's to help you get away from your devices.
01:14:12 ◼ ► But don't talk about how we're creating this product, which is screens in front of your eyes, to get you away from looking down at screens.
01:14:30 ◼ ► I think when you look at your Apple watch and you're with somebody and there's that thought of like, did they just check their watch so they can get out of here?
01:14:41 ◼ ► And like, it has faded, I think, with the Apple watch, but it's still a little bit of a thing.
01:14:46 ◼ ► I think, how much more is it going to be when someone walks in with one of these products and it's like, are you doing something else while you're looking at me?
01:14:57 ◼ ► It's, I will never feel, I don't think, like I have someone's full attention wearing a product like this.
01:15:32 ◼ ► But I think too quickly, a lot of these companies want to be everything and then it starts to fall apart.
01:15:53 ◼ ► Like, again, please just pull away all of your issues for as much as you can about dystopian futures.
01:16:02 ◼ ► But we all take photos of our friends and our families and our loved ones all the time.
01:16:06 ◼ ► Like, assuming people use these things correctly, if you want to be able to take a picture, being able to take a picture with your sunglasses is good.
01:16:14 ◼ ► Like, and being able to listen to podcasts from your sunglasses, it's just good technology.
01:16:36 ◼ ► Because part of these announcements are also like, it's a developer platform and they tout how many updates they've done to their OS and the API calls and all that stuff.
01:16:46 ◼ ► And if you want to build a platform, you got to have awkward hard, most of the time you have awkward hardware at the beginning, right?
01:17:02 ◼ ► I mean, how many years did it take for the Apple Watch to have an always on screen, right?
01:17:07 ◼ ► These things, this is the way these things go, but when they're on your face, it just feels like the curve you have to overcome is much steeper.
01:17:41 ◼ ► Like, yeah, I know this one is what it is now, but it's not like it's going to get massively cheaper in a lot of time.
01:18:14 ◼ ► This is going to be a fraction of a fraction of that because of the looks, because of the weight and the comfort.
01:19:34 ◼ ► Like, with all of these things, because I'm interested in technology, I would like to try them.
01:20:11 ◼ ► Even if somebody doesn't know they're a display, they're going to think you're wearing some really weird glasses.
01:20:20 ◼ ► It's not even so much to like, oh, if I wear these, people will know I have a display on my face.
01:21:13 ◼ ► And you can join and get Connected Pro, which is the longer and ad-free version of the show that we do each and every week.
01:21:21 ◼ ► That also comes with a bunch of goodies from Relay, access to our Discord, a couple of members-only podcasts, and over the summer, some member specials from some of our shows.
01:21:59 ◼ ► I will also use this as a moment to say we're doing a thing next week on Upgrade, which is essentially we wanted to do another taster of what people can expect from designing California.