Connected

00:00:00 ◼   ► Hello and welcome to Connected episode 581. Today is December 4th, 2025. The year's almost

00:00:15 ◼   ► over. That's upsetting. It's made possible by Squarespace, Century, and Fitbod. I don't

00:00:22 ◼   ► know if I introduced myself already because I got out of order a little bit, but I'm Stephen

00:00:26 ◼   ► and I'm joined by Mike. Hi, Mike. Hi, Stephen. I'm Mike. And we're looking down, like, really

00:00:34 ◼   ► like down the road towards our special episodes. I'm very excited about it. Yeah. Can I give

00:00:39 ◼   ► a little preview of that? Yep. So we will have our year in review, which is called The Annies.

00:00:46 ◼   ► That should be out on December 18th, episode 583. Taking the week of Christmas off, we'll

00:00:55 ◼   ► be back on January 1st with some sort of episode. I usually forget that episode. It's like I'm

00:01:01 ◼   ► not on it. And then January 8th, we'll be making our annual picks for 2026th and grading them

00:01:08 ◼   ► for 2025. That's episode 585 on January 8th. So lots of stuff coming up.

00:01:13 ◼   ► And of course, I'm very excited to welcome to the show Federico Vittici. Hi, Federico.

00:01:20 ◼   ► Oh, yes. Hi. Hello. Hello. We started talking about calendars before we introduced you. I

00:01:27 ◼   ► apologize. No, no worries. You're forgiven. Yes. Yep. Stephen for calendars. Okay. That came

00:01:32 ◼   ► to my mind. Uh-huh. Have you ever thought about how prophetic that title was? Was that not

00:01:42 ◼   ► about your... No. It was prompt 56 in 2014. Oh, dear. Mike, Federico, and Stephen follow

00:01:50 ◼   ► up on Sherlocking... Oh, I can't make this up. ...and discuss photo management in the light

00:01:55 ◼   ► of the upcoming Photos app from Apple. Then Mike shares his experience with Android Wear

00:02:00 ◼   ► and the weekly pick sound effects gets played for the first time in ages.

00:02:05 ◼   ► I had experience of Android Wear? Apparently. Also... What was that all about? Yeah. I don't

00:02:13 ◼   ► know. Weekly picks. Like, I barely remember that. It was a long time ago. Huh. Also, I'm fixing

00:02:18 ◼   ► a typo in that episode description that is now almost 12 years old. Yeah. Fantastic.

00:02:25 ◼   ► I'm gonna fix that. Boop. Fantastic. Oh, it's missing a period. Because it's too long. So,

00:02:33 ◼   ► I'm gonna now doctor it. Don't tell Kate. Okay. Now it's fixed. What are we doing today? What's

00:02:40 ◼   ► going on? We're supposed to be doing a podcast, but you're currently doing CMS work while we're

00:02:45 ◼   ► all sitting here and listening to you. Okay. Sorry. Big news. It's not like we don't have

00:02:49 ◼   ► any big news to discuss or anything. No. So, it's probably fine. Do you want to fix any

00:02:53 ◼   ► more while we're here? Like, any more spelling mistakes? I do want to tell a little bit of

00:02:56 ◼   ► a story. Okay. Okay. It's really your story I'm gonna tell. Yeah. But this was one of those

00:03:03 ◼   ► weeks that, like, the beginning of the week, we were like, oh, it's kind of a slow news week.

00:03:06 ◼   ► Do we need to do something fun? That's not really a news topic. We spent some time on something.

00:03:12 ◼   ► And then two Apple executives were announced to be leaving the company. And so, we now have

00:03:19 ◼   ► abundance of topics. And I think, of course, we're going to start with Alan Dye, right?

00:03:24 ◼   ► Yeah. Yeah. So, this happened yesterday. Mark Gurman in Bloomberg reports that Alan Dye has been

00:03:34 ◼   ► poached by Meta in what Mark calls a major coup.

00:03:39 ◼   ► What I find most interesting about this statement. So, Alan Dye, head of design at Apple,

00:03:47 ◼   ► is going to Meta. And Meta is setting up a design group that Dye will be running. He's got a C-suite

00:03:56 ◼   ► role there, I think, right? It's like chief design or something like that, right? But he's got a big

00:04:04 ◼   ► role. And they're setting up a new team. And Alan Dye is taking a bunch of his lieutenants with him,

00:04:09 ◼   ► including Billy Sorrentino, who was the guy with the incredible vibe from

00:04:16 ◼   ► WWDC or an event this year. I feel like we met Billy Sorrentino for the first time. He was showing

00:04:23 ◼   ► off Vigil Intelligence and he just had a really good vibe as a person. So, they're going to Meta and

00:04:30 ◼   ► apparently it's some other head of software design. So, human interface design is what Alan Dye,

00:04:37 ◼   ► I guess, technically has been running. So, they're going to Meta that are setting up a new design team

00:04:43 ◼   ► there and they will be reporting into the CTO. The thing that I find the most interesting about

00:04:51 ◼   ► Mark Gurman's article is they got an official response from Apple, but it came from Tim Cook.

00:04:59 ◼   ► Tim Cook gave a statement to Mark Gurman for this piece, which is fascinating to me. Obviously,

00:05:08 ◼   ► there are many threads to pull on for this, but like it wasn't just a statement from Apple or it

00:05:12 ◼   ► wasn't a statement from a PR person. This is a Tim Cook statement basically saying, you know,

00:05:18 ◼   ► here's who the replacement is. Design is so important to us. You know, we have an extraordinary

00:05:23 ◼   ► design team, et cetera, et cetera. But yeah, Alan Dye is going to Meta.

00:05:29 ◼   ► I honestly have been dreading this discussion if I'm being completely honest because people are like,

00:05:36 ◼   ► there's zero chill about this conversation, it feels like. So, I don't want to continue from this

00:05:47 ◼   ► point and we'll just, I will obviously have things to say, but I want one of you to start talking

00:05:51 ◼   ► because I don't really know where to go from it from here, if I'm being honest.

00:05:54 ◼   ► Okay. I don't know. I feel like I'm kind of a weird spot in that I don't really hate liquid glass.

00:06:08 ◼   ► I think they've, I think it's obviously very controversial and I obviously think that it's got

00:06:14 ◼   ► problems, but I think liquid glass on iOS, I don't really hate it. And I actually think it,

00:06:22 ◼   ► I think liquid glass gets a bad rap because of Alan Dye, because of the other platforms,

00:06:31 ◼   ► and because of the visual work more than the motion UI work. So, I think liquid glass animates

00:06:42 ◼   ► really nicely and there's like the liquid part of it, I guess what I'm trying to say, the liquid part

00:06:47 ◼   ► of it, I'm really a fan of. I feel like overall though, I'm glad that Alan Dye is gone because I feel like,

00:07:00 ◼   ► although I don't hate liquid glass as much as other people do, the overall legacy of this person is pretty much

00:07:10 ◼   ► a mess on, on like, on, and especially on the Mac, I think, and which is why I think Steven would be more

00:07:19 ◼   ► qualified to talk about this. But I feel like in this, in this era, in this decade of Alan Dye, we've seen

00:07:26 ◼   ► progressively the focus just being put more and more and more on iOS from a, from a visual perspective.

00:07:35 ◼   ► But, I don't know, it feels like, especially in the past few months,

00:07:41 ◼   ► clearly

00:07:44 ◼   ► this person that used to be in charge of design

00:07:48 ◼   ► was not really a UI designer, as much as was a

00:07:52 ◼   ► designer

00:07:54 ◼   ► that just wanted to make stuff that looked cool

00:07:58 ◼   ► and hip. Perhaps to the detriment

00:08:01 ◼   ► of some of the interactions. At the same time, huge asterisk here for me.

00:08:06 ◼   ► I would not put a blanket

00:08:10 ◼   ► on top of every single

00:08:13 ◼   ► UI design from Apple for the past decade.

00:08:15 ◼   ► Because I also think that there are definite successes

00:08:19 ◼   ► in what Apple has created over the past decade.

00:08:21 ◼   ► From the dynamic island,

00:08:24 ◼   ► to live activities,

00:08:25 ◼   ► to the animations of liquid glass,

00:08:27 ◼   ► to the, to vision OS.

00:08:30 ◼   ► So I think, just saying, ah, the Alan Dye era,

00:08:32 ◼   ► throw it all in the trash.

00:08:34 ◼   ► I think that's a little reductive.

00:08:36 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:08:36 ◼   ► The same way that some people

00:08:39 ◼   ► look at Johnny Ives'

00:08:40 ◼   ► complete body work at Apple

00:08:42 ◼   ► and say it was the best era ever.

00:08:44 ◼   ► Like, no, there were duds,

00:08:46 ◼   ► there were issues,

00:08:47 ◼   ► there were problems.

00:08:48 ◼   ► No one's,

00:08:49 ◼   ► the three of us, right?

00:08:52 ◼   ► Like, anyone

00:08:52 ◼   ► who has a career,

00:08:54 ◼   ► there are goods and bads,

00:08:56 ◼   ► highs and lows.

00:08:57 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:08:57 ◼   ► And so,

00:08:58 ◼   ► it's a really tough conversation,

00:09:01 ◼   ► not because I have any feelings about the guy.

00:09:03 ◼   ► I actually, personally,

00:09:04 ◼   ► like, kind of dislike the guy's vibe overall,

00:09:06 ◼   ► just personal feelings.

00:09:08 ◼   ► And I'm glad,

00:09:10 ◼   ► like, personally,

00:09:11 ◼   ► I'm glad that it seems like

00:09:13 ◼   ► they're putting a person in charge

00:09:14 ◼   ► who's a UI designer

00:09:16 ◼   ► that's been working at Apple

00:09:17 ◼   ► for, like, such a long time.

00:09:19 ◼   ► Like, personally,

00:09:21 ◼   ► I don't vibe

00:09:22 ◼   ► with the sort of

00:09:24 ◼   ► aesthetic

00:09:25 ◼   ► or just

00:09:26 ◼   ► general,

00:09:27 ◼   ► again,

00:09:28 ◼   ► vibe that I get from Alan Dye.

00:09:30 ◼   ► So, I'm glad.

00:09:32 ◼   ► But to say that,

00:09:33 ◼   ► like,

00:09:33 ◼   ► in the past decade,

00:09:34 ◼   ► every Apple

00:09:35 ◼   ► software design

00:09:36 ◼   ► has been bad,

00:09:37 ◼   ► I don't know

00:09:39 ◼   ► if that's accurate

00:09:39 ◼   ► because I think

00:09:40 ◼   ► there are a lot of

00:09:41 ◼   ► really talented folks

00:09:42 ◼   ► at Apple

00:09:42 ◼   ► that have created features,

00:09:44 ◼   ► even the new Siri interface,

00:09:47 ◼   ► arguably,

00:09:47 ◼   ► I mean,

00:09:48 ◼   ► Siri is super dumb,

00:09:49 ◼   ► but the interface

00:09:50 ◼   ► is pretty good.

00:09:50 ◼   ► And there have been

00:09:52 ◼   ► lots of cases

00:09:53 ◼   ► of UI design

00:09:54 ◼   ► from Apple

00:09:54 ◼   ► that was copied

00:09:55 ◼   ► from the rest of the industry.

00:09:57 ◼   ► You can get a lot

00:09:58 ◼   ► of Android phones

00:09:59 ◼   ► from China

00:09:59 ◼   ► that essentially copy

00:10:01 ◼   ► the iOS pre-26

00:10:03 ◼   ► and post-26 design.

00:10:04 ◼   ► So, there has been

00:10:05 ◼   ► some good work done,

00:10:07 ◼   ► but the problem

00:10:08 ◼   ► is the overall.

00:10:09 ◼   ► Like, the problem is

00:10:10 ◼   ► when you take a look

00:10:11 ◼   ► at the complete picture

00:10:11 ◼   ► and all the platforms

00:10:13 ◼   ► and especially the Mac,

00:10:15 ◼   ► you start to see

00:10:17 ◼   ► that maybe

00:10:18 ◼   ► some change

00:10:19 ◼   ► wasn't necessary.

00:10:20 ◼   ► Yeah, I think

00:10:22 ◼   ► it's always complicated

00:10:25 ◼   ► when you have

00:10:26 ◼   ► a figurehead,

00:10:27 ◼   ► right?

00:10:28 ◼   ► Like you said,

00:10:28 ◼   ► there's a whole,

00:10:29 ◼   ► there are multiple

00:10:30 ◼   ► design teams

00:10:31 ◼   ► at Apple, right?

00:10:32 ◼   ► there's sort of the core

00:10:33 ◼   ► industrial, you know,

00:10:35 ◼   ► design,

00:10:35 ◼   ► there's software design,

00:10:38 ◼   ► but then there's design teams,

00:10:39 ◼   ► you know,

00:10:40 ◼   ► or designers embedded

00:10:41 ◼   ► throughout the company

00:10:42 ◼   ► as well,

00:10:42 ◼   ► who work on

00:10:43 ◼   ► more individual projects,

00:10:45 ◼   ► inheriting what's done

00:10:46 ◼   ► at the top

00:10:47 ◼   ► and applying it

00:10:48 ◼   ► to their own projects.

00:10:49 ◼   ► But,

00:10:50 ◼   ► Alan Dye

00:10:50 ◼   ► was the face of it,

00:10:51 ◼   ► right?

00:10:52 ◼   ► He was in the video.

00:10:54 ◼   ► and people

00:10:56 ◼   ► who don't like

00:10:58 ◼   ► Liquid Glass,

00:10:59 ◼   ► right?

00:11:00 ◼   ► And I'm with you,

00:11:01 ◼   ► Federico,

00:11:01 ◼   ► I mostly like it.

00:11:03 ◼   ► I mean,

00:11:03 ◼   ► I'm not saying

00:11:04 ◼   ► there's not issues,

00:11:05 ◼   ► but I like it,

00:11:07 ◼   ► but I do worry

00:11:08 ◼   ► about the longevity

00:11:10 ◼   ► of it.

00:11:10 ◼   ► Like,

00:11:10 ◼   ► I don't,

00:11:11 ◼   ► is it going to stand up

00:11:12 ◼   ► in five years?

00:11:13 ◼   ► Like,

00:11:13 ◼   ► I don't think so.

00:11:13 ◼   ► But,

00:11:15 ◼   ► so I think

00:11:18 ◼   ► the figurehead thing

00:11:19 ◼   ► is complicated,

00:11:20 ◼   ► right?

00:11:20 ◼   ► That he's the face

00:11:21 ◼   ► of a huge,

00:11:23 ◼   ► really a huge organization.

00:11:24 ◼   ► And that really

00:11:26 ◼   ► wouldn't happen

00:11:27 ◼   ► in a company

00:11:28 ◼   ► that wasn't Apple

00:11:30 ◼   ► because

00:11:30 ◼   ► in the Steve Jobs

00:11:32 ◼   ► and Johnny Ive era,

00:11:34 ◼   ► like,

00:11:35 ◼   ► even though Johnny Ive

00:11:36 ◼   ► wasn't on stage

00:11:36 ◼   ► very much,

00:11:37 ◼   ► I think kind of famously

00:11:39 ◼   ► doesn't like being on stage,

00:11:40 ◼   ► he was the face

00:11:42 ◼   ► of design

00:11:43 ◼   ► at Apple,

00:11:43 ◼   ► industrial design,

00:11:44 ◼   ► and then

00:11:45 ◼   ► eventually

00:11:46 ◼   ► both hardware

00:11:47 ◼   ► and software

00:11:47 ◼   ► with iOS 7

00:11:49 ◼   ► after forced all

00:11:50 ◼   ► was removed.

00:11:50 ◼   ► The,

00:11:53 ◼   ► the thing that

00:11:54 ◼   ► I think

00:11:55 ◼   ► Mac users

00:11:56 ◼   ► in particular

00:11:57 ◼   ► wrestle with,

00:11:59 ◼   ► I think it's

00:12:01 ◼   ► two things.

00:12:02 ◼   ► One,

00:12:02 ◼   ► it's the

00:12:03 ◼   ► simplification

00:12:04 ◼   ► of the user interface.

00:12:06 ◼   ► This is true

00:12:07 ◼   ► on iOS

00:12:08 ◼   ► and iPadOS

00:12:08 ◼   ► as well,

00:12:09 ◼   ► but it's forgivable

00:12:11 ◼   ► on those

00:12:11 ◼   ► platforms

00:12:13 ◼   ► because the screens

00:12:14 ◼   ► are smaller

00:12:14 ◼   ► you're using it

00:12:16 ◼   ► with your hand,

00:12:16 ◼   ► you know,

00:12:17 ◼   ► you're tapping

00:12:17 ◼   ► or whatever.

00:12:17 ◼   ► There's a good reason

00:12:19 ◼   ► to do it.

00:12:20 ◼   ► Yes.

00:12:20 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:12:20 ◼   ► You got a six inch screen

00:12:22 ◼   ► versus a 32 inch

00:12:24 ◼   ► pro display XDR,

00:12:24 ◼   ► right?

00:12:25 ◼   ► And,

00:12:26 ◼   ► and macOS

00:12:26 ◼   ► does have to scale.

00:12:27 ◼   ► It has to scale

00:12:28 ◼   ► actually much more

00:12:29 ◼   ► than iOS

00:12:30 ◼   ► and iPadOS

00:12:30 ◼   ► because of the range

00:12:32 ◼   ► of screens

00:12:32 ◼   ► that it runs on.

00:12:34 ◼   ► but there are people

00:12:35 ◼   ► and I,

00:12:36 ◼   ► I count myself

00:12:37 ◼   ► in this

00:12:37 ◼   ► to a degree

00:12:38 ◼   ► that I'm not,

00:12:40 ◼   ► I don't love

00:12:41 ◼   ► the direction

00:12:42 ◼   ► the Mac has gone.

00:12:43 ◼   ► Take a look

00:12:43 ◼   ► who glass off the table

00:12:44 ◼   ► before Tahoe.

00:12:45 ◼   ► Things,

00:12:46 ◼   ► you know,

00:12:46 ◼   ► affordances

00:12:47 ◼   ► in the UI

00:12:48 ◼   ► have been

00:12:50 ◼   ► put behind clicks

00:12:51 ◼   ► and behind menus

00:12:53 ◼   ► and,

00:12:53 ◼   ► and that sort of thing.

00:12:55 ◼   ► And I,

00:12:56 ◼   ► I think Mac folks,

00:12:58 ◼   ► and look,

00:12:58 ◼   ► I co-host a show

00:12:59 ◼   ► called Mac Power User.

00:13:00 ◼   ► Like I'm,

00:13:00 ◼   ► I'm in this group.

00:13:02 ◼   ► You're one of the

00:13:03 ◼   ► Mac-iest of folks.

00:13:04 ◼   ► We are,

00:13:05 ◼   ► we are very passionate

00:13:06 ◼   ► about this platform

00:13:08 ◼   ► and we don't want it

00:13:09 ◼   ► to stay the same,

00:13:10 ◼   ► right?

00:13:10 ◼   ► If you truly love something,

00:13:12 ◼   ► you want it to get better.

00:13:13 ◼   ► And there's,

00:13:14 ◼   ► I think,

00:13:14 ◼   ► reasonable arguments

00:13:16 ◼   ► to say that

00:13:16 ◼   ► it has not gotten better

00:13:17 ◼   ► over the last 10 years

00:13:19 ◼   ► in terms of

00:13:20 ◼   ► design and usability.

00:13:22 ◼   ► And I,

00:13:23 ◼   ► I think that's where

00:13:24 ◼   ► a lot of the friction is

00:13:25 ◼   ► in this for people.

00:13:26 ◼   ► And we talked some

00:13:28 ◼   ► about this yesterday

00:13:28 ◼   ► in our,

00:13:29 ◼   ► in our group chat,

00:13:30 ◼   ► but

00:13:30 ◼   ► being a,

00:13:33 ◼   ► you know,

00:13:33 ◼   ► his background

00:13:34 ◼   ► is graphic design

00:13:35 ◼   ► and clearly

00:13:36 ◼   ► he's

00:13:37 ◼   ► good at that.

00:13:39 ◼   ► Like he's had

00:13:40 ◼   ► a long career at Apple.

00:13:41 ◼   ► You don't have

00:13:41 ◼   ► a long design career

00:13:42 ◼   ► at Apple

00:13:43 ◼   ► if you're not good

00:13:44 ◼   ► at the level

00:13:44 ◼   ► he was at.

00:13:45 ◼   ► But I think his,

00:13:47 ◼   ► I find it so frustrating

00:13:48 ◼   ► and,

00:13:49 ◼   ► and honestly,

00:13:49 ◼   ► like disappointing

00:13:51 ◼   ► when people say

00:13:53 ◼   ► he was just

00:13:54 ◼   ► a packaging designer.

00:13:55 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:13:55 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:13:56 ◼   ► Like the thing

00:13:56 ◼   ► that I keep seeing

00:13:57 ◼   ► people say.

00:13:58 ◼   ► And honestly,

00:13:59 ◼   ► I think if,

00:14:00 ◼   ► if you think like that,

00:14:00 ◼   ► you need to kind of

00:14:01 ◼   ► check yourself

00:14:02 ◼   ► a little bit

00:14:02 ◼   ► because everybody

00:14:03 ◼   ► has a place

00:14:04 ◼   ► that they come from

00:14:05 ◼   ► and they can work

00:14:07 ◼   ► more than what

00:14:08 ◼   ► they started as.

00:14:08 ◼   ► I honestly,

00:14:09 ◼   ► I find it quite disgusting

00:14:10 ◼   ► when I see people

00:14:11 ◼   ► say that kind of thing.

00:14:11 ◼   ► It's very,

00:14:12 ◼   ► very,

00:14:12 ◼   ► I can't think

00:14:14 ◼   ► of the word

00:14:15 ◼   ► that I'm looking for

00:14:15 ◼   ► but like it just

00:14:16 ◼   ► really puts people

00:14:17 ◼   ► down.

00:14:18 ◼   ► It's derogatory.

00:14:18 ◼   ► That's the phrase.

00:14:20 ◼   ► Oh,

00:14:20 ◼   ► he's just doing

00:14:21 ◼   ► this.

00:14:22 ◼   ► Like look at the

00:14:23 ◼   ► three of us,

00:14:24 ◼   ► right?

00:14:24 ◼   ► Like I came

00:14:25 ◼   ► from a newspaper

00:14:26 ◼   ► background

00:14:27 ◼   ► and worked

00:14:27 ◼   ► at the Apple store.

00:14:28 ◼   ► Federico worked

00:14:28 ◼   ► at an eBay store

00:14:29 ◼   ► and got hooked

00:14:30 ◼   ► on a MacBook Pro.

00:14:31 ◼   ► Mike,

00:14:32 ◼   ► your background

00:14:33 ◼   ► was in banking.

00:14:34 ◼   ► where you start

00:14:36 ◼   ► and where you end

00:14:37 ◼   ► up,

00:14:37 ◼   ► it should not be

00:14:39 ◼   ► judged against you.

00:14:40 ◼   ► It should be

00:14:40 ◼   ► something that honors

00:14:41 ◼   ► you,

00:14:41 ◼   ► right?

00:14:42 ◼   ► Like that he has

00:14:43 ◼   ► gotten so far.

00:14:43 ◼   ► But that said,

00:14:45 ◼   ► I agree with you

00:14:46 ◼   ► 100%,

00:14:46 ◼   ► Michael.

00:14:47 ◼   ► I really don't

00:14:48 ◼   ► like those takes.

00:14:50 ◼   ► but there is

00:14:51 ◼   ► something to be

00:14:52 ◼   ► said that if your

00:14:53 ◼   ► skills are strong

00:14:54 ◼   ► in one area,

00:14:55 ◼   ► that doesn't mean

00:14:57 ◼   ► they're going to be

00:14:57 ◼   ► strong in every area.

00:14:59 ◼   ► Just because I am

00:15:01 ◼   ► good at what I do

00:15:02 ◼   ► as a commentator

00:15:03 ◼   ► and as,

00:15:04 ◼   ► you know,

00:15:05 ◼   ► sort of an

00:15:05 ◼   ► operations person

00:15:06 ◼   ► for our business,

00:15:07 ◼   ► for Underscore,

00:15:08 ◼   ► it doesn't mean

00:15:10 ◼   ► that I'm good

00:15:10 ◼   ► at other things,

00:15:12 ◼   ► right?

00:15:12 ◼   ► That may,

00:15:13 ◼   ► on the surface,

00:15:14 ◼   ► on the surface,

00:15:15 ◼   ► it seems like

00:15:16 ◼   ► my skill set

00:15:17 ◼   ► could be applied

00:15:17 ◼   ► to sports coverage

00:15:19 ◼   ► or becoming

00:15:20 ◼   ► a bookkeeper

00:15:21 ◼   ► or an accountant,

00:15:21 ◼   ► right?

00:15:22 ◼   ► But the truth is

00:15:23 ◼   ► that's not true.

00:15:24 ◼   ► It's my skills

00:15:25 ◼   ► and where I am

00:15:26 ◼   ► are a good fit

00:15:27 ◼   ► right now.

00:15:27 ◼   ► And I do think

00:15:29 ◼   ► that the Venn diagram

00:15:30 ◼   ► of what Alan Dye

00:15:31 ◼   ► is good at

00:15:32 ◼   ► and what he is doing

00:15:32 ◼   ► recently has sort

00:15:34 ◼   ► of separated some.

00:15:35 ◼   ► And I think

00:15:36 ◼   ► that can be true

00:15:37 ◼   ► while also your

00:15:38 ◼   ► point being true

00:15:39 ◼   ► of,

00:15:39 ◼   ► oh,

00:15:40 ◼   ► he was just a product

00:15:41 ◼   ► or just making boxes.

00:15:42 ◼   ► Like,

00:15:43 ◼   ► what are you talking

00:15:44 ◼   ► about?

00:15:44 ◼   ► Like,

00:15:45 ◼   ► one,

00:15:45 ◼   ► the people who say

00:15:46 ◼   ► that,

00:15:46 ◼   ► like,

00:15:47 ◼   ► are the same people

00:15:47 ◼   ► who tweeted

00:15:48 ◼   ► about how awesome

00:15:49 ◼   ► their MacBook Pro

00:15:50 ◼   ► box was in,

00:15:51 ◼   ► you know,

00:15:51 ◼   ► 2014 or whatever.

00:15:52 ◼   ► Like,

00:15:53 ◼   ► you loved his work

00:15:54 ◼   ► he was doing then.

00:15:55 ◼   ► You didn't know

00:15:56 ◼   ► his name.

00:15:56 ◼   ► But I agree with you.

00:15:58 ◼   ► That's gross.

00:15:59 ◼   ► And that is,

00:16:01 ◼   ► like,

00:16:01 ◼   ► wrapped into the

00:16:03 ◼   ► figurehead stuff

00:16:03 ◼   ► as well.

00:16:04 ◼   ► But I do think,

00:16:05 ◼   ► like,

00:16:05 ◼   ► the dumbing down

00:16:06 ◼   ► of the UI

00:16:07 ◼   ► in places,

00:16:07 ◼   ► making things

00:16:08 ◼   ► too simple,

00:16:10 ◼   ► but in reality

00:16:11 ◼   ► you're making

00:16:11 ◼   ► them more complicated.

00:16:12 ◼   ► Like,

00:16:13 ◼   ► things that look

00:16:14 ◼   ► good,

00:16:14 ◼   ► but,

00:16:14 ◼   ► you know,

00:16:15 ◼   ► in screenshots,

00:16:16 ◼   ► maybe fall

00:16:17 ◼   ► down to the

00:16:17 ◼   ► real world

00:16:18 ◼   ► a little bit,

00:16:18 ◼   ► I do think

00:16:19 ◼   ► that's fair

00:16:20 ◼   ► criticism.

00:16:20 ◼   ► Can I just

00:16:21 ◼   ► jump up a couple

00:16:22 ◼   ► of steps

00:16:23 ◼   ► for a second?

00:16:24 ◼   ► Is that right?

00:16:25 ◼   ► So,

00:16:25 ◼   ► like,

00:16:25 ◼   ► one thing I just

00:16:26 ◼   ► want to say,

00:16:26 ◼   ► because,

00:16:26 ◼   ► like,

00:16:26 ◼   ► I think I have

00:16:27 ◼   ► a very different

00:16:28 ◼   ► vibe on this

00:16:29 ◼   ► episode.

00:16:30 ◼   ► I'm not,

00:16:31 ◼   ► I don't consider

00:16:31 ◼   ► myself,

00:16:32 ◼   ► like,

00:16:32 ◼   ► a fan of

00:16:33 ◼   ► Alan Diary's

00:16:33 ◼   ► work,

00:16:34 ◼   ► right?

00:16:34 ◼   ► Like,

00:16:34 ◼   ► necessarily.

00:16:35 ◼   ► Like,

00:16:36 ◼   ► I do like

00:16:37 ◼   ► Liquid Gloss a lot.

00:16:38 ◼   ► I think it looks

00:16:39 ◼   ► significantly better

00:16:40 ◼   ► than iOS 18.

00:16:41 ◼   ► Was it 18?

00:16:43 ◼   ► Was it the one

00:16:44 ◼   ► before?

00:16:44 ◼   ► It's hard to remember

00:16:45 ◼   ► now.

00:16:45 ◼   ► I am a fan

00:16:45 ◼   ► of it.

00:16:46 ◼   ► And so,

00:16:47 ◼   ► like,

00:16:47 ◼   ► I don't have,

00:16:48 ◼   ► like,

00:16:49 ◼   ► this,

00:16:49 ◼   ► like,

00:16:49 ◼   ► distaste.

00:16:50 ◼   ► I just don't

00:16:50 ◼   ► have it.

00:16:50 ◼   ► Like,

00:16:51 ◼   ► I see apps,

00:16:52 ◼   ► you know,

00:16:53 ◼   ► like,

00:16:54 ◼   ► our apps

00:16:55 ◼   ► that cross forward.

00:16:55 ◼   ► Looking at the

00:16:56 ◼   ► versions now

00:16:57 ◼   ► to before,

00:16:57 ◼   ► like,

00:16:58 ◼   ► iOS 26 has

00:16:59 ◼   ► been amazing

00:16:59 ◼   ► for us,

00:17:00 ◼   ► for,

00:17:00 ◼   ► like,

00:17:00 ◼   ► how it makes

00:17:01 ◼   ► our apps

00:17:01 ◼   ► look.

00:17:01 ◼   ► And the

00:17:03 ◼   ► general restructuring.

00:17:04 ◼   ► This is,

00:17:04 ◼   ► like,

00:17:04 ◼   ► a funny thing

00:17:05 ◼   ► to me,

00:17:05 ◼   ► where I think

00:17:05 ◼   ► one of the

00:17:06 ◼   ► best things

00:17:06 ◼   ► of iOS 26

00:17:07 ◼   ► is the way

00:17:08 ◼   ► in which

00:17:08 ◼   ► apps,

00:17:09 ◼   ► like,

00:17:09 ◼   ► design is

00:17:10 ◼   ► restructured

00:17:10 ◼   ► and the

00:17:11 ◼   ► navigation.

00:17:12 ◼   ► that's not

00:17:12 ◼   ► the visual

00:17:13 ◼   ► part.

00:17:13 ◼   ► But anyway,

00:17:14 ◼   ► I think I

00:17:16 ◼   ► am just,

00:17:17 ◼   ► like,

00:17:18 ◼   ► I feel like

00:17:18 ◼   ► I'm more

00:17:19 ◼   ► naturally

00:17:20 ◼   ► being drawn

00:17:21 ◼   ► to defend

00:17:22 ◼   ► him because

00:17:23 ◼   ► I am finding

00:17:24 ◼   ► such a distaste

00:17:25 ◼   ► in the way

00:17:25 ◼   ► that a lot

00:17:26 ◼   ► of people

00:17:26 ◼   ► in our

00:17:27 ◼   ► community

00:17:27 ◼   ► are talking

00:17:27 ◼   ► about it,

00:17:28 ◼   ► right?

00:17:28 ◼   ► so,

00:17:28 ◼   ► like,

00:17:28 ◼   ► I just

00:17:29 ◼   ► feel like

00:17:29 ◼   ► I'm having

00:17:30 ◼   ► that opposite

00:17:31 ◼   ► reaction.

00:17:31 ◼   ► So,

00:17:31 ◼   ► like,

00:17:32 ◼   ► I just

00:17:32 ◼   ► wanted to

00:17:32 ◼   ► put that

00:17:33 ◼   ► out there

00:17:33 ◼   ► as,

00:17:33 ◼   ► like,

00:17:33 ◼   ► a blanket

00:17:34 ◼   ► statement

00:17:34 ◼   ► for our

00:17:34 ◼   ► thing.

00:17:35 ◼   ► But I

00:17:35 ◼   ► wanted to

00:17:36 ◼   ► jump back

00:17:36 ◼   ► to something

00:17:36 ◼   ► that Federico

00:17:38 ◼   ► said and

00:17:38 ◼   ► also just

00:17:39 ◼   ► remind us

00:17:40 ◼   ► everyone of

00:17:40 ◼   ► something

00:17:41 ◼   ► we're having

00:17:41 ◼   ► this conversation.

00:17:42 ◼   ► Alan Dye

00:17:43 ◼   ► wasn't fired,

00:17:44 ◼   ► right?

00:17:45 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:17:45 ◼   ► Alan Dye

00:17:46 ◼   ► was going

00:17:48 ◼   ► nowhere,

00:17:48 ◼   ► it seems,

00:17:50 ◼   ► and he

00:17:51 ◼   ► has decided

00:17:52 ◼   ► to leave

00:17:53 ◼   ► to go to

00:17:53 ◼   ► Meta

00:17:53 ◼   ► because the

00:17:54 ◼   ► reporting is

00:17:54 ◼   ► suggesting that

00:17:55 ◼   ► this was surprising

00:17:56 ◼   ► to everybody.

00:17:57 ◼   ► And so,

00:17:58 ◼   ► like,

00:17:58 ◼   ► you know,

00:17:59 ◼   ► there is

00:17:59 ◼   ► people outside

00:18:00 ◼   ► of Apple

00:18:00 ◼   ► that seem

00:18:01 ◼   ► not to like

00:18:02 ◼   ► him.

00:18:02 ◼   ► There are

00:18:02 ◼   ► people inside

00:18:03 ◼   ► of Apple

00:18:03 ◼   ► that seem

00:18:03 ◼   ► not to like

00:18:04 ◼   ► him.

00:18:04 ◼   ► Some of

00:18:05 ◼   ► them are

00:18:05 ◼   ► talking,

00:18:05 ◼   ► some of

00:18:06 ◼   ► them aren't,

00:18:07 ◼   ► you know,

00:18:07 ◼   ► like,

00:18:07 ◼   ► talking to

00:18:08 ◼   ► people.

00:18:09 ◼   ► I'm sure

00:18:09 ◼   ► we've all

00:18:10 ◼   ► had people

00:18:11 ◼   ► message us

00:18:12 ◼   ► in the last

00:18:12 ◼   ► couple of

00:18:13 ◼   ► days to

00:18:13 ◼   ► be like,

00:18:13 ◼   ► finally,

00:18:14 ◼   ► like,

00:18:14 ◼   ► I have,

00:18:15 ◼   ► right?

00:18:15 ◼   ► But Apple,

00:18:19 ◼   ► like,

00:18:20 ◼   ► because Federico,

00:18:20 ◼   ► you said

00:18:21 ◼   ► change was

00:18:21 ◼   ► necessary,

00:18:22 ◼   ► right?

00:18:22 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:18:22 ◼   ► I don't

00:18:24 ◼   ► think

00:18:24 ◼   ► leadership at

00:18:26 ◼   ► Apple believed

00:18:27 ◼   ► that that was

00:18:27 ◼   ► the case.

00:18:28 ◼   ► In fact,

00:18:28 ◼   ► I think it was

00:18:29 ◼   ► the exact

00:18:29 ◼   ► opposite of

00:18:30 ◼   ► that,

00:18:30 ◼   ► right?

00:18:31 ◼   ► Like,

00:18:32 ◼   ► they,

00:18:32 ◼   ► you know,

00:18:33 ◼   ► if they

00:18:34 ◼   ► clearly gave

00:18:35 ◼   ► him a lot

00:18:36 ◼   ► of power

00:18:37 ◼   ► and remit

00:18:37 ◼   ► to redesign

00:18:39 ◼   ► every operating

00:18:40 ◼   ► system this

00:18:41 ◼   ► year.

00:18:41 ◼   ► Right.

00:18:42 ◼   ► it's not

00:18:42 ◼   ► it's not like

00:18:43 ◼   ► liquid glass

00:18:43 ◼   ► slipped out

00:18:44 ◼   ► the door

00:18:44 ◼   ► and they're

00:18:44 ◼   ► like,

00:18:44 ◼   ► hey,

00:18:45 ◼   ► where did

00:18:45 ◼   ► this come

00:18:46 ◼   ► from?

00:18:46 ◼   ► Right?

00:18:46 ◼   ► And I also

00:18:47 ◼   ► don't think

00:18:48 ◼   ► that this

00:18:48 ◼   ► happened like

00:18:49 ◼   ► it's a

00:18:50 ◼   ► four-store

00:18:50 ◼   ► moment.

00:18:51 ◼   ► There has

00:18:52 ◼   ► not seemed

00:18:52 ◼   ► to have

00:18:53 ◼   ► really been

00:18:54 ◼   ► this big

00:18:54 ◼   ► backlash to

00:18:55 ◼   ► liquid glass

00:18:56 ◼   ► en masse

00:18:57 ◼   ► in the

00:18:58 ◼   ► world

00:18:58 ◼   ► like an

00:18:59 ◼   ► Apple

00:18:59 ◼   ► Maps,

00:19:00 ◼   ► right?

00:19:00 ◼   ► I guess

00:19:01 ◼   ► what I'm

00:19:02 ◼   ► trying to

00:19:02 ◼   ► say is

00:19:03 ◼   ► that it

00:19:03 ◼   ► sounds like

00:19:05 ◼   ► from,

00:19:05 ◼   ► and,

00:19:06 ◼   ► you know,

00:19:06 ◼   ► we're going

00:19:06 ◼   ► to link

00:19:07 ◼   ► to a

00:19:07 ◼   ► John Gruber

00:19:08 ◼   ► story that

00:19:09 ◼   ► John is

00:19:09 ◼   ► quoting some

00:19:10 ◼   ► of his

00:19:10 ◼   ► sources.

00:19:11 ◼   ► It seems

00:19:12 ◼   ► like there

00:19:12 ◼   ► is a

00:19:12 ◼   ► pretty strong

00:19:13 ◼   ► contingent

00:19:14 ◼   ► of people

00:19:15 ◼   ► inside

00:19:15 ◼   ► Apple

00:19:16 ◼   ► that wanted

00:19:17 ◼   ► this to

00:19:17 ◼   ► happen and

00:19:18 ◼   ► are celebrating.

00:19:19 ◼   ► But,

00:19:19 ◼   ► you know,

00:19:20 ◼   ► it could be

00:19:20 ◼   ► like the

00:19:20 ◼   ► classic,

00:19:21 ◼   ► like the

00:19:21 ◼   ► king is

00:19:22 ◼   ► dead

00:19:22 ◼   ► scenario.

00:19:22 ◼   ► But also,

00:19:24 ◼   ► like me and

00:19:24 ◼   ► Jason always

00:19:25 ◼   ► talk about

00:19:26 ◼   ► this on

00:19:26 ◼   ► Upgrade.

00:19:26 ◼   ► These are

00:19:30 ◼   ► a self-selecting

00:19:31 ◼   ► group of

00:19:31 ◼   ► people that

00:19:32 ◼   ► are talking

00:19:32 ◼   ► to John

00:19:32 ◼   ► Gruber about

00:19:33 ◼   ► how happy

00:19:33 ◼   ► they are,

00:19:34 ◼   ► right?

00:19:34 ◼   ► True,

00:19:34 ◼   ► true.

00:19:35 ◼   ► And,

00:19:36 ◼   ► like,

00:19:36 ◼   ► also,

00:19:36 ◼   ► like,

00:19:37 ◼   ► if you are

00:19:37 ◼   ► a fan of

00:19:38 ◼   ► Daring Fireball,

00:19:39 ◼   ► you probably

00:19:39 ◼   ► care about

00:19:40 ◼   ► a lot of

00:19:40 ◼   ► things that

00:19:41 ◼   ► are specific

00:19:41 ◼   ► that a lot

00:19:44 ◼   ► of people in

00:19:44 ◼   ► our audience

00:19:45 ◼   ► do,

00:19:45 ◼   ► including all

00:19:45 ◼   ► of us,

00:19:46 ◼   ► that maybe

00:19:47 ◼   ► you think

00:19:47 ◼   ► he hasn't

00:19:48 ◼   ► done a

00:19:48 ◼   ► great job

00:19:48 ◼   ► with.

00:19:49 ◼   ► You know

00:19:49 ◼   ► what I

00:19:49 ◼   ► mean?

00:19:49 ◼   ► But then,

00:19:51 ◼   ► let me play

00:19:51 ◼   ► Devil's Advocate

00:19:52 ◼   ► here for a

00:19:52 ◼   ► second,

00:19:53 ◼   ► and I don't

00:19:53 ◼   ► really know

00:19:54 ◼   ► because,

00:19:54 ◼   ► like,

00:19:54 ◼   ► the details of

00:19:56 ◼   ► they will

00:19:57 ◼   ► be impossible

00:19:57 ◼   ► to know.

00:19:58 ◼   ► But,

00:19:59 ◼   ► if I were

00:20:00 ◼   ► to play

00:20:00 ◼   ► Devil's Advocate,

00:20:01 ◼   ► I would say,

00:20:01 ◼   ► well,

00:20:01 ◼   ► if Tim Cook

00:20:03 ◼   ► liked Alan

00:20:06 ◼   ► Dye so much,

00:20:06 ◼   ► why didn't

00:20:07 ◼   ► they do

00:20:08 ◼   ► whatever possible

00:20:09 ◼   ► to retain him?

00:20:11 ◼   ► well,

00:20:11 ◼   ► so this is my

00:20:12 ◼   ► theory about

00:20:12 ◼   ► what happened

00:20:13 ◼   ► here.

00:20:13 ◼   ► I think he

00:20:15 ◼   ► wanted a

00:20:15 ◼   ► C-suite position

00:20:16 ◼   ► and Tim Cook

00:20:19 ◼   ► has decided

00:20:19 ◼   ► that that will

00:20:21 ◼   ► not occur

00:20:22 ◼   ► under his

00:20:22 ◼   ► watch,

00:20:23 ◼   ► that no one

00:20:24 ◼   ► would take

00:20:24 ◼   ► the C-suite

00:20:25 ◼   ► position,

00:20:25 ◼   ► because it

00:20:26 ◼   ► didn't exist

00:20:26 ◼   ► before.

00:20:27 ◼   ► It existed

00:20:28 ◼   ► once for a

00:20:29 ◼   ► short period

00:20:29 ◼   ► of time.

00:20:30 ◼   ► Yeah,

00:20:30 ◼   ► Apple opened

00:20:31 ◼   ► the door to

00:20:32 ◼   ► that with

00:20:32 ◼   ► Johnny Ive,

00:20:32 ◼   ► right?

00:20:32 ◼   ► Chief design

00:20:33 ◼   ► officer,

00:20:33 ◼   ► please stay,

00:20:34 ◼   ► do a car,

00:20:35 ◼   ► do whatever

00:20:36 ◼   ► you want.

00:20:36 ◼   ► And this,

00:20:38 ◼   ► in a way,

00:20:38 ◼   ► I mean,

00:20:39 ◼   ► it's like that

00:20:39 ◼   ► was the

00:20:40 ◼   ► small domino

00:20:40 ◼   ► and this

00:20:41 ◼   ► is the

00:20:41 ◼   ► big domino.

00:20:42 ◼   ► Apple,

00:20:43 ◼   ► that's a

00:20:44 ◼   ► self-inflicted

00:20:44 ◼   ► wound on

00:20:45 ◼   ► Apple's part

00:20:46 ◼   ► of making

00:20:47 ◼   ► that a

00:20:47 ◼   ► position.

00:20:48 ◼   ► And it

00:20:49 ◼   ► does open

00:20:49 ◼   ► the door

00:20:50 ◼   ► to the

00:20:50 ◼   ► conversation

00:20:50 ◼   ► of,

00:20:51 ◼   ► in the

00:20:53 ◼   ► background

00:20:53 ◼   ► of all

00:20:54 ◼   ► of this

00:20:54 ◼   ► is

00:20:55 ◼   ► Tim Cook's

00:20:57 ◼   ► retirement,

00:20:58 ◼   ► whenever that

00:20:59 ◼   ► happens.

00:20:59 ◼   ► If it's

00:21:00 ◼   ► sometime

00:21:01 ◼   ► next year,

00:21:01 ◼   ► the reporting

00:21:02 ◼   ► is kind

00:21:02 ◼   ► of varied.

00:21:03 ◼   ► But no

00:21:04 ◼   ► matter what

00:21:05 ◼   ► you think

00:21:05 ◼   ► that is

00:21:05 ◼   ► coming,

00:21:06 ◼   ► right,

00:21:06 ◼   ► at some

00:21:07 ◼   ► point,

00:21:07 ◼   ► and so

00:21:09 ◼   ► is,

00:21:10 ◼   ► okay,

00:21:10 ◼   ► didn't get

00:21:11 ◼   ► a C-suite

00:21:12 ◼   ► position.

00:21:12 ◼   ► Maybe he,

00:21:15 ◼   ► again,

00:21:16 ◼   ► like Federico

00:21:16 ◼   ► said,

00:21:17 ◼   ► it's impossible

00:21:17 ◼   ► to know.

00:21:18 ◼   ► This is all

00:21:19 ◼   ► conjecture,

00:21:19 ◼   ► but is there

00:21:21 ◼   ► friction with

00:21:22 ◼   ► other changes

00:21:23 ◼   ► that are going

00:21:24 ◼   ► to happen

00:21:24 ◼   ► there?

00:21:24 ◼   ► Like,

00:21:25 ◼   ► did John

00:21:26 ◼   ► Ternus cut

00:21:26 ◼   ► him off in

00:21:27 ◼   ► the parking

00:21:27 ◼   ► lot and he

00:21:27 ◼   ► holds a

00:21:28 ◼   ► grudge?

00:21:28 ◼   ► Like,

00:21:28 ◼   ► I just

00:21:29 ◼   ► don't know.

00:21:29 ◼   ► Or,

00:21:30 ◼   ► yeah,

00:21:30 ◼   ► it's just

00:21:31 ◼   ► like,

00:21:31 ◼   ► Tim's like,

00:21:31 ◼   ► I'm not

00:21:32 ◼   ► making any

00:21:32 ◼   ► changes now,

00:21:33 ◼   ► right?

00:21:34 ◼   ► Like,

00:21:35 ◼   ► whether he

00:21:35 ◼   ► says that

00:21:36 ◼   ► overtly or

00:21:37 ◼   ► not,

00:21:37 ◼   ► or he's

00:21:37 ◼   ► just

00:21:37 ◼   ► thinking

00:21:38 ◼   ► that.

00:21:38 ◼   ► But,

00:21:39 ◼   ► like,

00:21:39 ◼   ► there's so

00:21:40 ◼   ► much

00:21:40 ◼   ► executive

00:21:40 ◼   ► turnover

00:21:41 ◼   ► in Apple

00:21:42 ◼   ► right now.

00:21:42 ◼   ► It's unknowable

00:21:45 ◼   ► at this stage

00:21:46 ◼   ► why that's

00:21:46 ◼   ► happening,

00:21:46 ◼   ► right?

00:21:47 ◼   ► Like,

00:21:48 ◼   ► is it just

00:21:49 ◼   ► a bunch of

00:21:50 ◼   ► people who

00:21:50 ◼   ► have all

00:21:51 ◼   ► decided to

00:21:51 ◼   ► retire at

00:21:52 ◼   ► the same

00:21:52 ◼   ► time,

00:21:53 ◼   ► and or

00:21:54 ◼   ► some people

00:21:55 ◼   ► are being

00:21:55 ◼   ► forced out,

00:21:56 ◼   ► and or

00:21:57 ◼   ► it's all

00:21:57 ◼   ► dominoes

00:21:58 ◼   ► falling because

00:21:59 ◼   ► Tim is getting

00:22:00 ◼   ► ready to leave

00:22:00 ◼   ► and Ternus

00:22:01 ◼   ► has a whole

00:22:02 ◼   ► different group

00:22:02 ◼   ► of people

00:22:03 ◼   ► that he will

00:22:03 ◼   ► want to put

00:22:04 ◼   ► in place,

00:22:04 ◼   ► right?

00:22:04 ◼   ► Which you

00:22:05 ◼   ► would kind

00:22:06 ◼   ► of hope

00:22:06 ◼   ► and or

00:22:07 ◼   ► expect from

00:22:08 ◼   ► a new

00:22:08 ◼   ► CEO that

00:22:09 ◼   ► they're going

00:22:09 ◼   ► to put

00:22:09 ◼   ► the people

00:22:10 ◼   ► in,

00:22:10 ◼   ► that they

00:22:11 ◼   ► want to

00:22:12 ◼   ► lead the

00:22:13 ◼   ► divisions in

00:22:13 ◼   ► the ways that

00:22:14 ◼   ► they want

00:22:14 ◼   ► them,

00:22:15 ◼   ► and that

00:22:15 ◼   ► basically,

00:22:16 ◼   ► Dye saw

00:22:17 ◼   ► this power

00:22:18 ◼   ► vacuum with

00:22:19 ◼   ► Jeff Williams

00:22:19 ◼   ► leaving,

00:22:20 ◼   ► and he's

00:22:21 ◼   ► like,

00:22:21 ◼   ► oh,

00:22:21 ◼   ► I can see

00:22:24 ◼   ► Jeff is

00:22:25 ◼   ► going,

00:22:26 ◼   ► so if I'm

00:22:28 ◼   ► going to be

00:22:29 ◼   ► reporting directly

00:22:30 ◼   ► to Tim,

00:22:31 ◼   ► I want

00:22:33 ◼   ► to have

00:22:34 ◼   ► the title

00:22:35 ◼   ► that other

00:22:36 ◼   ► people have

00:22:37 ◼   ► reporting directly

00:22:39 ◼   ► to Tim,

00:22:39 ◼   ► and like my

00:22:41 ◼   ► predecessor had

00:22:42 ◼   ► before me,

00:22:43 ◼   ► right?

00:22:43 ◼   ► Sure.

00:22:43 ◼   ► And so then

00:22:45 ◼   ► they're like,

00:22:46 ◼   ► no,

00:22:46 ◼   ► you're not

00:22:46 ◼   ► going to get

00:22:47 ◼   ► that,

00:22:47 ◼   ► and so,

00:22:48 ◼   ► you know,

00:22:50 ◼   ► I would

00:22:51 ◼   ► expect that

00:22:52 ◼   ► at this

00:22:54 ◼   ► level in

00:22:55 ◼   ► Silicon Valley

00:22:56 ◼   ► there's a lot

00:22:58 ◼   ► of talk,

00:22:58 ◼   ► right?

00:22:59 ◼   ► and that

00:23:00 ◼   ► even though

00:23:01 ◼   ► Apple,

00:23:02 ◼   ► Google,

00:23:02 ◼   ► Facebook,

00:23:03 ◼   ► all of these

00:23:04 ◼   ► companies are

00:23:06 ◼   ► rivals,

00:23:07 ◼   ► they're friendly,

00:23:09 ◼   ► the people may

00:23:10 ◼   ► be friendly,

00:23:11 ◼   ► and maybe it

00:23:13 ◼   ► came up,

00:23:13 ◼   ► and they know

00:23:15 ◼   ► that Dye is

00:23:16 ◼   ► unhappy because

00:23:16 ◼   ► he didn't get

00:23:17 ◼   ► the chief design

00:23:19 ◼   ► officer role,

00:23:19 ◼   ► and so

00:23:21 ◼   ► Zuckerberg's like,

00:23:21 ◼   ► I'll take him.

00:23:23 ◼   ► Maybe.

00:23:24 ◼   ► I find the

00:23:26 ◼   ► move to

00:23:27 ◼   ► meta being

00:23:28 ◼   ► particularly

00:23:29 ◼   ► particularly

00:23:30 ◼   ► interesting

00:23:31 ◼   ► because I

00:23:32 ◼   ► think out

00:23:33 ◼   ► of all

00:23:33 ◼   ► the big

00:23:34 ◼   ► tech

00:23:34 ◼   ► companies,

00:23:34 ◼   ► I think

00:23:35 ◼   ► meta and

00:23:36 ◼   ► Apple hate

00:23:36 ◼   ► each other

00:23:36 ◼   ► the most.

00:23:37 ◼   ► Meta clearly

00:23:39 ◼   ► hates Apple,

00:23:40 ◼   ► right?

00:23:40 ◼   ► Like Zuckerberg

00:23:41 ◼   ► has the biggest

00:23:42 ◼   ► chip on his

00:23:42 ◼   ► shoulder about

00:23:43 ◼   ► not having a

00:23:45 ◼   ► mobile platform.

00:23:45 ◼   ► Well,

00:23:46 ◼   ► Apple also

00:23:47 ◼   ► keep

00:23:47 ◼   ► fundamentally

00:23:50 ◼   ► trying to

00:23:51 ◼   ► change their

00:23:51 ◼   ► business out

00:23:52 ◼   ► from under

00:23:52 ◼   ► them.

00:23:52 ◼   ► And they

00:23:53 ◼   ► turned off

00:23:53 ◼   ► their whole

00:23:53 ◼   ► company

00:23:54 ◼   ► when they

00:23:55 ◼   ► were using

00:23:55 ◼   ► those

00:23:55 ◼   ► dev

00:23:55 ◼   ► shivkets

00:23:56 ◼   ► inappropriately.

00:23:57 ◼   ► But it

00:23:58 ◼   ► was just

00:23:59 ◼   ► still like

00:23:59 ◼   ► one of the

00:24:00 ◼   ► all-time

00:24:00 ◼   ► funniest

00:24:01 ◼   ► tech stories

00:24:01 ◼   ► I think

00:24:02 ◼   ► that's

00:24:02 ◼   ► happened

00:24:02 ◼   ► in my

00:24:02 ◼   ► career.

00:24:03 ◼   ► Like,

00:24:03 ◼   ► oh,

00:24:03 ◼   ► we can't

00:24:04 ◼   ► buy

00:24:04 ◼   ► burritos

00:24:04 ◼   ► on campus

00:24:05 ◼   ► because

00:24:05 ◼   ► Apple

00:24:05 ◼   ► turned us

00:24:06 ◼   ► off.

00:24:09 ◼   ► This episode

00:24:09 ◼   ► of Connected

00:24:10 ◼   ► is brought

00:24:11 ◼   ► to you by

00:24:11 ◼   ► Squarespace,

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00:25:54 ◼   ► Our

00:25:55 ◼   ► thanks to

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00:25:55 ◼   ► for their

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00:25:59 ◼   ► So that's

00:26:02 ◼   ► interesting

00:26:03 ◼   ► too,

00:26:04 ◼   ► right?

00:26:04 ◼   ► That he's

00:26:05 ◼   ► going there.

00:26:06 ◼   ► And I

00:26:06 ◼   ► think that

00:26:07 ◼   ► that probably

00:26:08 ◼   ► also is a

00:26:10 ◼   ► factor in

00:26:10 ◼   ► how the

00:26:11 ◼   ► community is

00:26:12 ◼   ► responding to

00:26:12 ◼   ► this because

00:26:13 ◼   ► a lot of

00:26:13 ◼   ► the community

00:26:14 ◼   ► feels the

00:26:14 ◼   ► same way.

00:26:15 ◼   ► Like, I

00:26:15 ◼   ► don't like

00:26:15 ◼   ► meta.

00:26:16 ◼   ► Like, yes,

00:26:16 ◼   ► I use their

00:26:17 ◼   ► products, but

00:26:17 ◼   ► I don't like

00:26:18 ◼   ► them as a

00:26:18 ◼   ► company.

00:26:18 ◼   ► I think

00:26:20 ◼   ► that's probably

00:26:21 ◼   ► a bit of a

00:26:22 ◼   ► factor too.

00:26:22 ◼   ► But I do

00:26:24 ◼   ► want to talk

00:26:24 ◼   ► about what

00:26:25 ◼   ► comes next

00:26:25 ◼   ► if we're

00:26:26 ◼   ► ready to

00:26:26 ◼   ► move to

00:26:26 ◼   ► that because

00:26:28 ◼   ► this news

00:26:30 ◼   ► broke and

00:26:31 ◼   ► with it

00:26:31 ◼   ► was this

00:26:33 ◼   ► is who

00:26:33 ◼   ► we're

00:26:33 ◼   ► replacing

00:26:34 ◼   ► him

00:26:34 ◼   ► with.

00:26:34 ◼   ► There was

00:26:36 ◼   ► not a

00:26:37 ◼   ► vacuum.

00:26:37 ◼   ► Apple was

00:26:39 ◼   ► not going

00:26:39 ◼   ► to have a

00:26:39 ◼   ► vacuum of

00:26:40 ◼   ► leadership

00:26:40 ◼   ► here.

00:26:41 ◼   ► And so

00:26:42 ◼   ► Apple has

00:26:43 ◼   ► named

00:26:43 ◼   ► another

00:26:44 ◼   ► longtime

00:26:46 ◼   ► Apple

00:26:46 ◼   ► employee

00:26:47 ◼   ► to this

00:26:48 ◼   ► role,

00:26:48 ◼   ► Stephen

00:26:49 ◼   ► LeMay,

00:26:50 ◼   ► who has

00:26:51 ◼   ► been at

00:26:52 ◼   ► Apple,

00:26:52 ◼   ► or at

00:26:53 ◼   ► least I

00:26:53 ◼   ► think the

00:26:53 ◼   ► quote from

00:26:54 ◼   ► Cook mentions

00:26:54 ◼   ► like 1999.

00:26:55 ◼   ► Like he's

00:26:56 ◼   ► been there a

00:26:57 ◼   ► long time.

00:26:58 ◼   ► and he

00:26:59 ◼   ► is a

00:27:00 ◼   ► software

00:27:01 ◼   ► interface

00:27:02 ◼   ► designer,

00:27:03 ◼   ► not a

00:27:04 ◼   ► graphic

00:27:04 ◼   ► designer.

00:27:05 ◼   ► And again,

00:27:05 ◼   ► I'm not

00:27:06 ◼   ► not putting

00:27:06 ◼   ► that down

00:27:07 ◼   ► at all.

00:27:08 ◼   ► Like it's

00:27:08 ◼   ► just a

00:27:09 ◼   ► different a

00:27:09 ◼   ► different role.

00:27:10 ◼   ► He is more

00:27:11 ◼   ► traditionally

00:27:12 ◼   ► who I would

00:27:14 ◼   ► think this

00:27:15 ◼   ► role would

00:27:16 ◼   ► be for.

00:27:17 ◼   ► But does

00:27:20 ◼   ► that leave

00:27:20 ◼   ► some of the

00:27:21 ◼   ► fashion,

00:27:21 ◼   ► some of the

00:27:23 ◼   ► other things

00:27:23 ◼   ► like out

00:27:26 ◼   ► in the cold

00:27:26 ◼   ► a little bit?

00:27:27 ◼   ► maybe it

00:27:27 ◼   ► does.

00:27:28 ◼   ► But I'm

00:27:30 ◼   ► excited to

00:27:31 ◼   ► see what

00:27:31 ◼   ► he, you

00:27:32 ◼   ► know, what

00:27:32 ◼   ► happens.

00:27:33 ◼   ► Nothing will

00:27:33 ◼   ► be fast.

00:27:34 ◼   ► Like if

00:27:35 ◼   ► you are

00:27:36 ◼   ► listening to

00:27:36 ◼   ► this and

00:27:37 ◼   ► you're reading

00:27:38 ◼   ► about this

00:27:38 ◼   ► and you

00:27:39 ◼   ► think, oh

00:27:39 ◼   ► gosh, like

00:27:40 ◼   ► and you

00:27:40 ◼   ► don't like

00:27:41 ◼   ► a glass or

00:27:42 ◼   ► the current

00:27:42 ◼   ► state of

00:27:43 ◼   ► things.

00:27:43 ◼   ► Like, oh

00:27:44 ◼   ► great.

00:27:44 ◼   ► WBC next

00:27:45 ◼   ► year is going

00:27:46 ◼   ► to be like

00:27:46 ◼   ► an overhaul.

00:27:47 ◼   ► It's like, no,

00:27:47 ◼   ► it's not like

00:27:48 ◼   ► these things

00:27:48 ◼   ► take time.

00:27:49 ◼   ► Well, except

00:27:50 ◼   ► that one year

00:27:50 ◼   ► where it didn't

00:27:51 ◼   ► him.

00:27:51 ◼   ► It was a

00:27:51 ◼   ► disaster.

00:27:52 ◼   ► right around

00:27:56 ◼   ► the same

00:27:57 ◼   ► time, by

00:27:58 ◼   ► the way.

00:27:58 ◼   ► I don't

00:27:59 ◼   ► think they're

00:28:00 ◼   ► going to go

00:28:00 ◼   ► down the

00:28:01 ◼   ► iOS 7

00:28:02 ◼   ► torture chamber

00:28:04 ◼   ► again, but

00:28:05 ◼   ► I do think

00:28:07 ◼   ► it is

00:28:08 ◼   ► interesting that

00:28:09 ◼   ► they've chosen

00:28:10 ◼   ► somebody with

00:28:12 ◼   ► what could be

00:28:13 ◼   ► a more sort

00:28:14 ◼   ► of traditional

00:28:14 ◼   ► background for

00:28:16 ◼   ► this role.

00:28:18 ◼   ► But again,

00:28:19 ◼   ► like, they

00:28:21 ◼   ► didn't want

00:28:22 ◼   ► him, though,

00:28:22 ◼   ► did they?

00:28:23 ◼   ► Right?

00:28:24 ◼   ► I mean, he

00:28:26 ◼   ► wasn't promoted.

00:28:27 ◼   ► I mean, Alan,

00:28:28 ◼   ► we don't, I

00:28:28 ◼   ► don't know the

00:28:29 ◼   ► levels of these

00:28:30 ◼   ► people beforehand,

00:28:30 ◼   ► but Alan Dye

00:28:31 ◼   ► got the job.

00:28:32 ◼   ► Stephen LeMay

00:28:33 ◼   ► did not get it

00:28:34 ◼   ► years ago.

00:28:35 ◼   ► And they didn't

00:28:36 ◼   ► fire Alan Dye

00:28:37 ◼   ► at any point

00:28:38 ◼   ► and give the

00:28:39 ◼   ► job to Stephen

00:28:39 ◼   ► LeMay.

00:28:40 ◼   ► Like, I just, I

00:28:41 ◼   ► don't, I think

00:28:42 ◼   ► that there is a

00:28:43 ◼   ► lot of people

00:28:43 ◼   ► that are looking

00:28:44 ◼   ► at this and

00:28:44 ◼   ► they're like,

00:28:45 ◼   ► great, it's

00:28:45 ◼   ► all changed.

00:28:46 ◼   ► But like,

00:28:48 ◼   ► what if he's

00:28:50 ◼   ► now just given

00:28:51 ◼   ► the same, like,

00:28:52 ◼   ► priorities and

00:28:53 ◼   ► directive that

00:28:54 ◼   ► Dye was given?

00:28:55 ◼   ► And it's not

00:28:56 ◼   ► like, they're not

00:28:57 ◼   ► saying, you know,

00:28:57 ◼   ► he's like, I

00:28:58 ◼   ► would like to

00:28:59 ◼   ► fix the interface

00:28:59 ◼   ► design, like,

00:29:00 ◼   ► the interface

00:29:00 ◼   ► interaction design.

00:29:01 ◼   ► And they're like,

00:29:02 ◼   ► no, make it

00:29:03 ◼   ► look pretty.

00:29:04 ◼   ► I mean, maybe

00:29:06 ◼   ► so, you know.

00:29:07 ◼   ► I just, I'm not

00:29:08 ◼   ► sure that this is

00:29:09 ◼   ► like the, I'm

00:29:10 ◼   ► going to use the

00:29:11 ◼   ► phrase, the

00:29:11 ◼   ► panacea that

00:29:12 ◼   ► people want it

00:29:13 ◼   ► to be, right?

00:29:14 ◼   ► Like, I don't

00:29:15 ◼   ► think that we

00:29:16 ◼   ► can just assume

00:29:17 ◼   ► that this,

00:29:18 ◼   ► quote unquote

00:29:18 ◼   ► fixes everything

00:29:20 ◼   ► about Apple's

00:29:21 ◼   ► design idea.

00:29:22 ◼   ► I agree, but

00:29:23 ◼   ► people have, when

00:29:24 ◼   ► change happens and

00:29:25 ◼   ► you're unhappy with

00:29:26 ◼   ► the status quo, you

00:29:27 ◼   ► attach hope to

00:29:28 ◼   ► change.

00:29:28 ◼   ► That's just

00:29:29 ◼   ► natural.

00:29:29 ◼   ► Absolutely.

00:29:30 ◼   ► Yeah, and I'm

00:29:31 ◼   ► just here with a

00:29:32 ◼   ► big bucket of

00:29:32 ◼   ► ice water and I

00:29:33 ◼   ► want to throw it

00:29:33 ◼   ► over everyone just

00:29:34 ◼   ► in case.

00:29:35 ◼   ► Like, I don't want

00:29:35 ◼   ► anyone to get too

00:29:36 ◼   ► excited about this

00:29:37 ◼   ► because I just

00:29:38 ◼   ► think that this is

00:29:39 ◼   ► a very different

00:29:40 ◼   ► scenario with

00:29:42 ◼   ► Gianandre, right?

00:29:43 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

00:29:44 ◼   ► Gianandre is gone.

00:29:46 ◼   ► We knew this was

00:29:46 ◼   ► going to happen.

00:29:47 ◼   ► He is, quote

00:29:48 ◼   ► unquote, retired.

00:29:48 ◼   ► Like, they have

00:29:50 ◼   ► most likely given

00:29:50 ◼   ► this man a golden

00:29:51 ◼   ► parachute.

00:29:51 ◼   ► He's going to keep

00:29:53 ◼   ► all of his benefits.

00:29:53 ◼   ► He's going to get

00:29:54 ◼   ► a wonderful pension

00:29:55 ◼   ► and he wasn't

00:29:55 ◼   ► fired and he's

00:29:56 ◼   ► gone on his way

00:29:57 ◼   ► now and everyone's

00:29:58 ◼   ► happy, right?

00:29:59 ◼   ► Everyone's happier

00:30:00 ◼   ► because they didn't

00:30:01 ◼   ► want him to run

00:30:01 ◼   ► the role anymore.

00:30:02 ◼   ► They kept

00:30:03 ◼   ► demoting him

00:30:03 ◼   ► essentially.

00:30:04 ◼   ► What are they

00:30:04 ◼   ► going to do with

00:30:05 ◼   ► this poor guy?

00:30:05 ◼   ► Just let him go,

00:30:06 ◼   ► right?

00:30:07 ◼   ► And I think that

00:30:09 ◼   ► that could have

00:30:11 ◼   ► happened to

00:30:12 ◼   ► Alan Dye, but it

00:30:12 ◼   ► didn't, right?

00:30:14 ◼   ► Like, I think these

00:30:15 ◼   ► two together, I think

00:30:16 ◼   ► are a perfect

00:30:17 ◼   ► encapsulation of

00:30:19 ◼   ► kind of what I'm

00:30:20 ◼   ► trying to poke at

00:30:21 ◼   ► here, which is

00:30:22 ◼   ► like, this change

00:30:25 ◼   ► is not a change

00:30:26 ◼   ► in the priorities

00:30:28 ◼   ► of the leadership

00:30:30 ◼   ► at Apple.

00:30:31 ◼   ► Now, maybe this

00:30:32 ◼   ► is going to shift

00:30:33 ◼   ► the way that the

00:30:34 ◼   ► design team works,

00:30:35 ◼   ► but this was not

00:30:38 ◼   ► a come-to-Jesus

00:30:38 ◼   ► moment by anyone.

00:30:40 ◼   ► Like, no one

00:30:41 ◼   ► had looked in the

00:30:42 ◼   ► mirror and was

00:30:43 ◼   ► like, it's time to

00:30:44 ◼   ► get rid of Alan

00:30:45 ◼   ► Dye.

00:30:45 ◼   ► Like, that didn't

00:30:46 ◼   ► happen here.

00:30:46 ◼   ► The only person

00:30:48 ◼   ► that made that

00:30:48 ◼   ► decision was Alan

00:30:49 ◼   ► Dye.

00:30:50 ◼   ► He decided to

00:30:51 ◼   ► leave.

00:30:52 ◼   ► Yeah, but maybe

00:30:54 ◼   ► that come-to-Jesus

00:30:57 ◼   ► meeting happens

00:30:58 ◼   ► when Stephen

00:30:59 ◼   ► LeMay's in the

00:30:59 ◼   ► office, right?

00:31:00 ◼   ► Like, when he

00:31:01 ◼   ► is in charge.

00:31:03 ◼   ► I would hope so,

00:31:04 ◼   ► right?

00:31:05 ◼   ► Because then that

00:31:06 ◼   ► guy is going to

00:31:07 ◼   ► get to run the

00:31:07 ◼   ► thing the way that

00:31:08 ◼   ► he wants to.

00:31:09 ◼   ► I really hope

00:31:09 ◼   ► that's the case,

00:31:10 ◼   ► right?

00:31:10 ◼   ► I want that to be

00:31:12 ◼   ► the case.

00:31:12 ◼   ► I do think there

00:31:13 ◼   ► is something

00:31:14 ◼   ► interestingly in

00:31:16 ◼   ► common between

00:31:17 ◼   ► John G.

00:31:18 ◼   ► Andrea and

00:31:19 ◼   ► Alan Dye both

00:31:20 ◼   ► leaving.

00:31:21 ◼   ► And, you know,

00:31:23 ◼   ► maybe I'm doing

00:31:24 ◼   ► the thing that we

00:31:25 ◼   ► were just talking

00:31:25 ◼   ► about.

00:31:26 ◼   ► We're like, I

00:31:27 ◼   ► don't know.

00:31:27 ◼   ► But...

00:31:30 ◼   ► I don't think

00:31:31 ◼   ► it's any secret

00:31:32 ◼   ► to Apple's

00:31:34 ◼   ► executives.

00:31:35 ◼   ► They're very

00:31:36 ◼   ► tuned in with

00:31:37 ◼   ► what the

00:31:37 ◼   ► community

00:31:38 ◼   ► thinks and

00:31:42 ◼   ► talks about.

00:31:43 ◼   ► But the

00:31:45 ◼   ► thing I worry

00:31:47 ◼   ► about in

00:31:48 ◼   ► reading these

00:31:48 ◼   ► press releases,

00:31:49 ◼   ► like, it's not

00:31:50 ◼   ► a secret that

00:31:51 ◼   ► iOS 26 and

00:31:52 ◼   ► liquid glass and

00:31:53 ◼   ► Tahoe and

00:31:54 ◼   ► other design

00:31:55 ◼   ► decisions have

00:31:55 ◼   ► been criticized.

00:31:58 ◼   ► And it's

00:31:58 ◼   ► also not a

00:31:59 ◼   ► secret that

00:32:00 ◼   ► John

00:32:00 ◼   ► Janadrea was

00:32:02 ◼   ► not the

00:32:03 ◼   ► right fit for

00:32:04 ◼   ► this job

00:32:05 ◼   ► either, right?

00:32:06 ◼   ► And there have

00:32:08 ◼   ► been reports about

00:32:09 ◼   ► how Apple said,

00:32:09 ◼   ► no, you can't

00:32:10 ◼   ► buy GPUs, and

00:32:11 ◼   ► maybe he ran

00:32:12 ◼   ► into their

00:32:12 ◼   ► privacy policy,

00:32:13 ◼   ► whatever.

00:32:13 ◼   ► But I think it's

00:32:15 ◼   ► clear that it

00:32:16 ◼   ► wasn't working.

00:32:16 ◼   ► And you don't

00:32:17 ◼   ► have to look any

00:32:17 ◼   ► further than Mike

00:32:18 ◼   ► Rockwell being

00:32:19 ◼   ► put in charge of

00:32:19 ◼   ► the new Siri.

00:32:21 ◼   ► And so, part

00:32:23 ◼   ► of me worries a

00:32:26 ◼   ► little bit that

00:32:27 ◼   ► Apple has let

00:32:30 ◼   ► these things go

00:32:31 ◼   ► too far.

00:32:32 ◼   ► I think that's

00:32:32 ◼   ► way more the

00:32:33 ◼   ► case in the

00:32:34 ◼   ► John Janadrea

00:32:36 ◼   ► side of things.

00:32:37 ◼   ► But maybe they've

00:32:38 ◼   ► let things go too

00:32:39 ◼   ► far, and then

00:32:40 ◼   ► they want them to

00:32:41 ◼   ► play out.

00:32:41 ◼   ► Like, okay, he's

00:32:43 ◼   ► going to retire, or

00:32:44 ◼   ► we're pushing him

00:32:45 ◼   ► out, or golden

00:32:45 ◼   ► parachute, whatever.

00:32:46 ◼   ► Oh, Alan Dye's

00:32:47 ◼   ► leaving.

00:32:47 ◼   ► Woo, we dodged a

00:32:48 ◼   ► bullet.

00:32:48 ◼   ► We don't have to

00:32:49 ◼   ► deal with it.

00:32:49 ◼   ► Like, a little

00:32:50 ◼   ► part of me

00:32:50 ◼   ► worries about

00:32:51 ◼   ► that.

00:32:52 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:32:53 ◼   ► Right?

00:32:55 ◼   ► Like, I think

00:32:57 ◼   ► we have also,

00:33:00 ◼   ► right, like,

00:33:01 ◼   ► again, I would

00:33:02 ◼   ► take the view and

00:33:03 ◼   ► say that Alan

00:33:04 ◼   ► Dye is not the

00:33:04 ◼   ► right person for

00:33:05 ◼   ► the role, right?

00:33:05 ◼   ► Like, I'll just

00:33:06 ◼   ► take that view for

00:33:06 ◼   ► this part of the

00:33:07 ◼   ► conversation.

00:33:08 ◼   ► John Janadrea was

00:33:10 ◼   ► not the right person

00:33:11 ◼   ► for the role.

00:33:12 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:33:12 ◼   ► And, I mean,

00:33:13 ◼   ► what, we had

00:33:14 ◼   ► the, did we

00:33:15 ◼   ► have two PR

00:33:17 ◼   ► heads come and

00:33:18 ◼   ► go?

00:33:19 ◼   ► Something like

00:33:20 ◼   ► that.

00:33:20 ◼   ► We had, um.

00:33:21 ◼   ► A bunch of, back

00:33:23 ◼   ► in the day, a

00:33:23 ◼   ► bunch of retail

00:33:23 ◼   ► people.

00:33:24 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:33:25 ◼   ► Yes.

00:33:26 ◼   ► Who, what was

00:33:27 ◼   ► the name of the

00:33:28 ◼   ► person who

00:33:28 ◼   ► created Meet

00:33:29 ◼   ► You at Apple?

00:33:30 ◼   ► Uh, was

00:33:32 ◼   ► that Brown?

00:33:33 ◼   ► Santhin

00:33:35 ◼   ► Ahrens?

00:33:35 ◼   ► Angela Ahrens.

00:33:37 ◼   ► That's it.

00:33:38 ◼   ► Yes.

00:33:38 ◼   ► Thank you.

00:33:39 ◼   ► Right?

00:33:39 ◼   ► And, again, like,

00:33:40 ◼   ► executives, it's a

00:33:42 ◼   ► hard thing, right?

00:33:44 ◼   ► But, then there

00:33:45 ◼   ► are people like

00:33:46 ◼   ► Phil Schiller,

00:33:48 ◼   ► Craig Federighi,

00:33:50 ◼   ► been there forever,

00:33:51 ◼   ► right?

00:33:52 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

00:33:52 ◼   ► Now, are they the

00:33:54 ◼   ► right people for the

00:33:54 ◼   ► jobs either?

00:33:55 ◼   ► I don't know, man.

00:33:56 ◼   ► You know what I

00:33:57 ◼   ► mean?

00:33:57 ◼   ► But, like, it's

00:34:00 ◼   ► not, I just, it's

00:34:04 ◼   ► not, the whole

00:34:05 ◼   ► leadership thing at

00:34:06 ◼   ► Apple is just not

00:34:07 ◼   ► feeling super

00:34:08 ◼   ► comfortable right

00:34:08 ◼   ► now.

00:34:09 ◼   ► Like, people are

00:34:10 ◼   ► leaving all over

00:34:12 ◼   ► the place.

00:34:12 ◼   ► Like, they're not,

00:34:14 ◼   ► they're not, you

00:34:15 ◼   ► know, I don't know.

00:34:16 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:34:17 ◼   ► It's weird.

00:34:17 ◼   ► It's weird.

00:34:22 ◼   ► Federico, can you

00:34:23 ◼   ► tell us a little

00:34:24 ◼   ► bit about who is

00:34:25 ◼   ► taking over the

00:34:26 ◼   ► AI machine learning

00:34:27 ◼   ► stuff?

00:34:27 ◼   ► Because he's a

00:34:28 ◼   ► big name, right?

00:34:28 ◼   ► Yes.

00:34:31 ◼   ► So, the person

00:34:32 ◼   ► that is taking

00:34:33 ◼   ► over, Amar

00:34:34 ◼   ► Subramanya, I'm

00:34:37 ◼   ► sorry, I really

00:34:37 ◼   ► don't know.

00:34:38 ◼   ► So, used to be an

00:34:42 ◼   ► AI researcher at

00:34:43 ◼   ► Google, then was

00:34:46 ◼   ► hired by

00:34:47 ◼   ► Microsoft five

00:34:49 ◼   ► months ago, and

00:34:51 ◼   ► now they're

00:34:52 ◼   ► joining Apple.

00:34:53 ◼   ► So, and what I

00:34:55 ◼   ► think is interesting

00:34:56 ◼   ► is that Subramanya

00:34:57 ◼   ► will oversee

00:34:59 ◼   ► Apple Foundation

00:35:00 ◼   ► models, ML

00:35:01 ◼   ► research, and

00:35:02 ◼   ► AI safety and

00:35:03 ◼   ► evaluation.

00:35:04 ◼   ► So, it seems to

00:35:07 ◼   ► me, like, obviously

00:35:07 ◼   ► this is a role

00:35:08 ◼   ► that's being filled

00:35:09 ◼   ► by somebody with

00:35:11 ◼   ► a background in

00:35:12 ◼   ► AI research, and

00:35:13 ◼   ► it's especially

00:35:14 ◼   ► interesting to me

00:35:16 ◼   ► the AI safety

00:35:18 ◼   ► and evaluation

00:35:18 ◼   ► field, because one

00:35:20 ◼   ► of the problems

00:35:23 ◼   ► with what Apple

00:35:24 ◼   ► announced that we

00:35:26 ◼   ► talked about is

00:35:27 ◼   ► the risk of the

00:35:28 ◼   ► models getting the

00:35:30 ◼   ► details wrong about

00:35:30 ◼   ► your request, or

00:35:31 ◼   ► maybe misinterpreting

00:35:33 ◼   ► like what data you

00:35:34 ◼   ► want to fetch from

00:35:35 ◼   ► which apps on your

00:35:36 ◼   ► device, or even

00:35:37 ◼   ► worse, the risk of

00:35:38 ◼   ► prompt injections.

00:35:39 ◼   ► Like, what if you're

00:35:40 ◼   ► passing some insecure

00:35:42 ◼   ► data to an app that's

00:35:44 ◼   ► reading that from the

00:35:45 ◼   ► LLM, and suddenly

00:35:47 ◼   ► you're found with one

00:35:48 ◼   ► application sort of

00:35:49 ◼   ► exfiltrating your