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Under the Radar

329: Zero Utilization on Your Brain

 

00:00:00 ◼   ► Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development.

00:00:03 ◼   ► I'm Marco Arment.

00:00:05 ◼   ► And I'm David Smith.

00:00:06 ◼   ► Under the Radar is usually not longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.

00:00:09 ◼   ► So I just got back from my, it's become a bit of an annual tradition, my like post-September

00:00:17 ◼   ► rest period, because the nature of being an iOS developer is we have WBDC in June.

00:00:24 ◼   ► It's very exciting, it's very, sort of, it dictates the future for the next few months

00:00:30 ◼   ► for us.

00:00:31 ◼   ► We get through that, we get through September, iOS launches, new phones launch, all the things

00:00:36 ◼   ► happen.

00:00:36 ◼   ► We tidy up all the issues and bugs that are in the new iOS, you know, the new OSs and the

00:00:40 ◼   ► new phones.

00:00:40 ◼   ► And I find myself generally at the end of that to be rather worn down, rather tired and ready

00:00:49 ◼   ► for a break.

00:00:50 ◼   ► And I think for many years, I didn't take a break and would jump immediately into like

00:00:55 ◼   ► my point one releases, you know, so I do all these big work, get it out for September.

00:00:59 ◼   ► And then you have all this input coming in from users and, you know, your own ideas for things

00:01:05 ◼   ► you had to defer and push off into the future.

00:01:07 ◼   ► And you, you know, early years, I would be like, okay, now I'm, you know, I've got those

00:01:12 ◼   ► out and I'm just going to start on them.

00:01:14 ◼   ► And the thing that's difficult about a break and a bit of rest is that you don't know how

00:01:20 ◼   ► much you need it until you take it.

00:01:22 ◼   ► And several times, I think I've found that I would, by diving right in right away, I would

00:01:28 ◼   ► just sort of run myself down and my productivity would fall.

00:01:31 ◼   ► I would not be as useful at, you know, actually getting the work done.

00:01:35 ◼   ► It would take much longer than it needed to.

00:01:37 ◼   ► And what would actually be much more productive and much more useful is scheduling in a time

00:01:41 ◼   ► end of September, beginning of October to have some time off to really take a break.

00:01:45 ◼   ► And what I find is I'm actually, you know, much more able to ship things out in the next

00:01:50 ◼   ► few months, having taken this break, because the nature of a break and the reason you don't

00:01:55 ◼   ► know how much you need it until you actually take it is your brain is a complicated thing.

00:02:01 ◼   ► And if it is, at least for me, I find over the summer, it is operating at a much higher level,

00:02:06 ◼   ► a much more engaged level.

00:02:08 ◼   ► There's so many sort of background processes constantly running, just like wearing down

00:02:12 ◼   ► my energy stores cognitively.

00:02:14 ◼   ► And those sort of that pressure can only, in my case, I found be something I can release

00:02:21 ◼   ► by taking a break, by not thinking about code, you know, closing my computer, not opening Xcode.

00:02:26 ◼   ► And eventually those background processes kind of like run their course and disappear.

00:02:31 ◼   ► And you can finally sort of get back down to like, you know, sort of zero utilization on

00:02:37 ◼   ► your brain.

00:02:38 ◼   ► And it is important to do that, because otherwise, you are just, you know, eventually you're just

00:02:43 ◼   ► running wear and tear on yourself.

00:02:45 ◼   ► And so that is a thing that I do.

00:02:46 ◼   ► I just got back from, had a lovely trip to Ireland, you know, went hiking and walking and

00:02:52 ◼   ► all the things that I like to do.

00:02:53 ◼   ► But it is something that I have found very essential, but it reminded me and I thought

00:02:57 ◼   ► would be a useful topic of kind of there's different kinds of rest that we have that

00:03:02 ◼   ► there's this is sort of the medium version, the taking a break for a couple of weeks, you

00:03:07 ◼   ► could start on the other extreme where you say like the sabbatical kind of leave where you're

00:03:10 ◼   ► gone for, you know, months at a time.

00:03:13 ◼   ► And you can kind of work your way down.

00:03:14 ◼   ► So we have, you know, months at a time, weeks at a time, days at a time, hours at a time,

00:03:19 ◼   ► you know, sort of minutes at a time.

00:03:20 ◼   ► And I think at each of those kind of gradients, rest will have different impacts on us and

00:03:24 ◼   ► different benefits and potential sort of pitfalls and challenges.

00:03:28 ◼   ► But, you know, nevertheless, it is something that I strongly recommend.

00:03:32 ◼   ► You know, if you are listening to this and you haven't taken a break in a while,

00:03:35 ◼   ► probably is a good sign that you need to take a break.

00:03:37 ◼   ► Wow.

00:03:39 ◼   ► Taking a break and rest and everything, it's one of those things like flossing or

00:03:45 ◼   ► sunscreen where it's like, we all know we should do this.

00:03:48 ◼   ► Like, everyone knows you should rest sometimes.

00:03:50 ◼   ► Well, maybe not everyone.

00:03:52 ◼   ► But, you know, but it is kind of generally regarded as like, oh, yeah, of course, that's

00:03:56 ◼   ► a good idea.

00:03:56 ◼   ► But then when it comes time to, okay, well, are you going to do it?

00:03:58 ◼   ► Oh, well, I can't do it.

00:03:59 ◼   ► I don't have time for that.

00:04:01 ◼   ► Or I'll take a rest, but not right now, not yet.

00:04:04 ◼   ► Down the road at some vague future time that, you know, for many of us never

00:04:09 ◼   ► comes, you know, that's when I'll be able to take some time off or whatever.

00:04:12 ◼   ► It can really cause a lot of problems over time of generally feeling overwhelmed, feeling

00:04:17 ◼   ► burnout.

00:04:18 ◼   ► It's obviously not great for mental or physical health to never have any kind of rest time.

00:04:23 ◼   ► But it is, I think the indie life presents some unique challenges to it.

00:04:30 ◼   ► You know, in one level, we don't have a nine to five boss or schedule.

00:04:36 ◼   ► And so we, you know, we can kind of do whatever we want in terms of like, you know, day to day.

00:04:42 ◼   ► Like if I want to take this afternoon off so I can go to the post office or bring my kids

00:04:47 ◼   ► somewhere like, you know, like I can do that and no one's going to fire me for that.

00:04:52 ◼   ► So it does seem like the indie life really lends itself well to like short to medium size

00:04:59 ◼   ► rests kind of happening whenever you need them for the most part.

00:05:02 ◼   ► But when it comes time to like, I'm going to take a week off, a few weeks off or a month

00:05:09 ◼   ► off, like that starts to get a lot harder for indies because when we are not working, our

00:05:15 ◼   ► company stops moving.

00:05:16 ◼   ► Like it isn't like we have the co-workers who can, you know, pick up the slack if we

00:05:20 ◼   ► are not working.

00:05:20 ◼   ► The work just piles up until we get back.

00:05:23 ◼   ► So that can that can make it feel very difficult to truly relax or truly, you know, let go because

00:05:32 ◼   ► you you know that you're just going to have more work when you get there.

00:05:35 ◼   ► You know, it's it isn't just disappearing from from your plate.

00:05:40 ◼   ► It's just being deferred.

00:05:42 ◼   ► So how do we manage that?

00:05:44 ◼   ► And I think it does definitely inform the kind of break that we can reasonably take,

00:05:49 ◼   ► you know, in the sense of I was saying that we have like the different levels, like the

00:05:52 ◼   ► biggest level, like taking a couple months off, going on sabbatical is really tough.

00:05:57 ◼   ► And I think the classic version where I think most people would reasonably go on sabbatical

00:06:00 ◼   ► or something similar to it is after the birth of a child, you know, so going on maternity

00:06:04 ◼   ► or paternity leave.

00:06:06 ◼   ► And I remember in my own life, like I had I have had two children since I was an indie

00:06:11 ◼   ► developer and I really wasn't able to take large amounts of time off in terms of not, you

00:06:19 ◼   ► know, not checking into work, not doing things like you can kind of take work from a high level

00:06:25 ◼   ► of engagement to a kind of take over making sure that things are OK.

00:06:29 ◼   ► You have a little bits of work here and there and you can sort of slow down the process.

00:06:34 ◼   ► But I was never able to feel comfortable sort of not checking in, not engaging with that.

00:06:41 ◼   ► And I think that's somewhat just part for the course.

00:06:43 ◼   ► Like I think, like you said, the flexibility we get from being our own boss and having more

00:06:49 ◼   ► control over our schedule comes at the cost, I think, of having it making it very difficult

00:06:55 ◼   ► to take long periods away.

00:06:56 ◼   ► And I think and the reality is, I think one of the challenging things I sometimes think

00:07:00 ◼   ► about with something less longer, like a sabbatical or, you know, taking a couple of months off

00:07:04 ◼   ► is I think from a rest and the benefit of the rest perspective, it probably reaches a point

00:07:11 ◼   ► of diminishing returns relatively early in that process where at some point it may have other

00:07:18 ◼   ► benefits, like from people I know who've taken sabbaticals or longer periods, like it was useful

00:07:23 ◼   ► for their life to gain some sort of broader perspective or to understand other things about

00:07:28 ◼   ► themselves.

00:07:29 ◼   ► But at some point, the just I'm worn out from work or I want to recharge my cognitive and

00:07:35 ◼   ► creative abilities likely reaches a point of diminishing return where that is not being

00:07:41 ◼   ► restored by being gone for so long.

00:07:43 ◼   ► And that at some point, honestly, the challenge in our business is technology is constantly moving

00:07:47 ◼   ► and advancing and changing.

00:07:49 ◼   ► Like, you know, while I was gone, Apple released iOS 26.1 beta 2.

00:07:54 ◼   ► And so that was a thing that happened that I have not had the time yet to unpack and look

00:07:59 ◼   ► at and see what's changed.

00:08:01 ◼   ► And if I was gone for several weeks, there'd be several betas and several issues and several

00:08:05 ◼   ► things that would have happened that isn't just work piling up, that it's like the world

00:08:10 ◼   ► is changing.

00:08:11 ◼   ► And so, you know, if I had gone on holiday in May of this year and then suddenly picked

00:08:16 ◼   ► up my computer and started to try to work now with all of iOS 26 and liquid glass and

00:08:21 ◼   ► all the things having happened in the meantime, like it would have been completely chaos and

00:08:24 ◼   ► I would have felt really behind.

00:08:25 ◼   ► And so I think that level of break, I don't feel too bad in some ways that I don't think

00:08:30 ◼   ► is reasonable for me to take.

00:08:31 ◼   ► I think it's just part of the cost of being an indie developer is that you need to be

00:08:37 ◼   ► involved somewhat regularly at a regular, you know, within a couple of weeks into your

00:08:42 ◼   ► work at some level.

00:08:43 ◼   ► And I think that's the best we can do for a lot of that kind of thing.

00:08:47 ◼   ► It can be hard too, because like when you think about a longer break, you know, the way a lot

00:08:52 ◼   ► of people achieve a longer break is they change jobs.

00:08:56 ◼   ► Sure.

00:08:57 ◼   ► If you're really in need of a break for, you know, for the kind of thing you're working

00:09:01 ◼   ► on, one thing you can do is look for a different job or decide to take off for a few months.

00:09:07 ◼   ► When you're an indie, you can't really do that unless you are ready to shut down your business

00:09:13 ◼   ► in some way or sell it or transfer it to somebody else.

00:09:15 ◼   ► That can be hard.

00:09:16 ◼   ► Like, you know, if I don't want to work on Overcast for a year, that's going to mean I

00:09:20 ◼   ► have to sell it or shut it down.

00:09:21 ◼   ► There's no other way unless I, you know, I can try to hire somebody to replace me.

00:09:26 ◼   ► But that's also not a super easy thing to do.

00:09:29 ◼   ► And so for the most part, you know, we have the jobs that we've created for ourselves if

00:09:35 ◼   ► we've succeeded.

00:09:35 ◼   ► And look, that's in many ways a lucky position to be in.

00:09:38 ◼   ► We both know that.

00:09:39 ◼   ► Like, to have a business that is good enough to be your job, that's great.

00:09:45 ◼   ► It's what we all work towards.

00:09:47 ◼   ► But then once you have it, you also have, you know, one challenge of that success is you

00:09:54 ◼   ► cannot leave unless the business leaves in some way.

00:09:57 ◼   ► Another angle that I think keeps me tied to work and makes it hard for me to walk away for

00:10:05 ◼   ► even, you know, a week or two is, you know, because it's my product and because I see all

00:10:12 ◼   ► the things that I want to do with it in my head, in my notes, like there's, I have all

00:10:16 ◼   ► these ideas I want to do with it.

00:10:18 ◼   ► And I see all the feedback channels, all the emails, all the, you know, reviews, all the

00:10:23 ◼   ► Reddit posts.

00:10:24 ◼   ► Like, I see all of that and I see what everyone else wants too.

00:10:27 ◼   ► Or I see things that need improvement that, you know, there's certain bugs left or, you

00:10:31 ◼   ► know, certain parts of the new design people aren't getting.

00:10:34 ◼   ► So I have to, you know, maybe rethink or tweak those, you know, stuff like that.

00:10:38 ◼   ► I'm seeing everything that I want to happen or that seems like it needs to happen.

00:10:43 ◼   ► And it's this infinite to-do list that will never end, that I will never feel caught up

00:10:49 ◼   ► on.

00:10:49 ◼   ► So it's very difficult for me when I face that huge list of things that either I want to do

00:10:57 ◼   ► or that my customers are telling me I need to do and to say, I'm going to take a week off.

00:11:01 ◼   ► Like, that's really hard for anybody.

00:11:05 ◼   ► I mean, I'm sure, you know, I'm sure many of the upset customers would also decide that

00:11:09 ◼   ► was not a good idea for me to do.

00:11:10 ◼   ► But, you know, just for me alone, like, I have a really hard time turning my brain off

00:11:17 ◼   ► and disconnecting and saying, you know what?

00:11:18 ◼   ► It is okay for me to just watch a concert tonight, to watch a concert video on my couch tonight

00:11:27 ◼   ► and not work until I have to go to bed.

00:11:30 ◼   ► Like, that is very difficult for me to do.

00:11:34 ◼   ► Like, how do you manage that side of it?

00:11:36 ◼   ► It's weird.

00:11:37 ◼   ► Maybe it's a weird connection, but it really makes me think of something that I've sort of

00:11:42 ◼   ► come to learn and understand in fitness when you're training, where very often you will

00:11:49 ◼   ► do interval training or training that is based on, you know, sort of some kind of work-rest

00:11:55 ◼   ► ratio.

00:11:56 ◼   ► You know, so it's like go fast for two minutes and then rest for two minutes and then go fast

00:12:00 ◼   ► for two minutes and rest for two minutes or something like that.

00:12:02 ◼   ► And I think something that I took was someone recently asked was talking to someone about

00:12:07 ◼   ► about sort of the, how much rest do you need between, you know, between intervals and how

00:12:10 ◼   ► do you find the right amount for that?

00:12:12 ◼   ► And I think something that sort of came up in that conversation that I thought was really

00:12:15 ◼   ► relevant here is the sense that the reason the rest is there is to make the work periods

00:12:21 ◼   ► more effective.

00:12:24 ◼   ► And you want to take however much rest you need to have the work be as effective as you

00:12:29 ◼   ► can be to be as, you know, as you're able to get the output that you want from that.

00:12:35 ◼   ► And so I think the thing that I've had to remind myself in terms of my work, you know,

00:12:39 ◼   ► sort of work rest in terms of my actual programming is for me to do my best work, for me to make

00:12:45 ◼   ► the best versions of something, I need to have periods of rest long enough and regular enough

00:12:51 ◼   ► that I'm able to recover and come back at it with creativity, with the interest, with, you

00:12:58 ◼   ► know, excitement, enthusiasm, motivation, all of the things that are combined to be my best

00:13:02 ◼   ► work. And if I take too short or too infrequent breaks, I'm not going to be able to do that.

00:13:08 ◼   ► My work periods are not going to be effective, are not going to be as helpful.

00:13:12 ◼   ► And I think that switch has been very helpful for me to justify in my mind sort of the things

00:13:18 ◼   ► that you're just describing where it's the, oh, but, you know, if I stopped, if I, if I stop

00:13:24 ◼   ► working, these things are going to pile up, or I really want to do this, or I really think

00:13:27 ◼   ► this is helpful. And I think there's an honesty you have to have with yourself of,

00:13:32 ◼   ► am I doing, am I able physically and mentally and cognitively and creatively and all of

00:13:37 ◼   ► those metrics able to actually do good, great work right now? Or am I just kind of just sort

00:13:43 ◼   ► of sleepwalking through this, doing my best, kind of struggling to feel creative to, you

00:13:48 ◼   ► know, if I, if I hit a problem and I'm trying to come up with a good solution for it, do I

00:13:51 ◼   ► feel like I have the energy to do that? And if, if I don't, then it's like, I need to go

00:13:57 ◼   ► into one of those rest periods. I need to allow myself to recharge enough to dive back

00:14:02 ◼   ► into that. And I think changing it from that, from the perspective of I'm neglecting something

00:14:08 ◼   ► by taking a rest to, I'm allowing myself to do better and more effective work when I come

00:14:15 ◼   ► back has just, for me, has been very helpful. Just that reframing a little bit, because otherwise

00:14:20 ◼   ► I do feel like I'm letting my customers down. I'm letting myself down. And I mean, sometimes

00:14:23 ◼   ► there's the honesty and kind of kindness you have to have to yourself of, I think it's easy

00:14:29 ◼   ► sometimes to have the like, well, I should just do it. Like I'm a professional, like this, you

00:14:34 ◼   ► know, professionals just show up and do the work regardless. And it's like, okay, maybe that's

00:14:39 ◼   ► sometimes true. But the reality is like, unless I really am honest, like I can be honest with

00:14:43 ◼   ► myself and say like, am I just being a slacker? Do I just want to, you know, whatever, watch

00:14:46 ◼   ► movies and do nothing? Or is it, I really need that break? I nearly, and the result of that

00:14:52 ◼   ► break will be effective. And if I can honestly say, I think having the break will be effective,

00:14:55 ◼   ► then I should take it. And then I should feel confident in taking it and happy that I'm doing

00:15:01 ◼   ► it so that when I come back, I can be more effective, that I can be more productive. And I think

00:15:07 ◼   ► that's a pattern that the more I've gotten into this and you sort of get a sense of how much

00:15:11 ◼   ► rest you need and how often you need it and when you need it, like you can be more productive. I was

00:15:16 ◼   ► much more productive last fall than I think I would have been if I hadn't taken a similar trip at the

00:15:20 ◼   ► end of September, like after the big push, it's very useful to have this period where like all I have

00:15:26 ◼   ► lots of work waiting for me, you know, at the end, it's not like, oh, the work is finished when you

00:15:30 ◼   ► ship your, you know, your, uh, your September release, but there's lots of work, you know, just that

00:15:35 ◼   ► I was waiting to start now, but I feel much more able to do it now because I'm not worn down.

00:15:40 ◼   ► My brain is sort of sharp and ready and I'm able to dive into it. And I know that I will,

00:15:46 ◼   ► as a result, probably get more done in many ways, more quickly than if I hadn't taken the break,

00:15:51 ◼   ► which is always a slightly funny dynamic. Um, but I think that I find is just a very helpful way to

00:15:55 ◼   ► frame taking that rest because you're, you it's, it's for a purpose, not for like, it's not as much

00:16:02 ◼   ► as it is leisure, you know, you're bringing in leisure into your life. It's not for just that

00:16:07 ◼   ► purpose. It is not just for fun. It is not just for that purpose. It is something that is effective

00:16:12 ◼   ► and helpful and making you a better version of your own self, um, to do your work.

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00:18:08 ◼   ► Yeah. And I think breaking down from that kind of big week long break, I think it's interesting to

00:18:14 ◼   ► just talk about some of the smaller breaks that we'll probably take. So I think many of us probably

00:18:19 ◼   ► live in a part of the world where a weekend is a thing that you work for a few days and then you take

00:18:23 ◼   ► a couple of days off. And I think as an indie, especially, that is super important just from

00:18:30 ◼   ► a perspective of you can work all the time. But if you want to have a social life, if you want to

00:18:35 ◼   ► have a family life, if you want the sort of thing, the usual relationships that you have in your life,

00:18:42 ◼   ► like I very early discovered and have found just the importance of while I could, in theory, work

00:18:48 ◼   ► six days a week, seven days a week, I could work odd schedules where I take my days off in the middle

00:18:54 ◼   ► of the week. Like that sometimes could be helpful. And there have been periods of my career where things

00:18:59 ◼   ► are just really hectic and I have to do that. But generally speaking, I find it's important to take

00:19:05 ◼   ► those regular breaks at regular times so that you can have regular relationships because not everyone

00:19:09 ◼   ► in your life is likely an indie developer who has complete flexibility and control of their own

00:19:13 ◼   ► schedule. So strongly recommend doing that. And similarly, like the next level down, you know, the

00:19:19 ◼   ► importance of having somewhat of a reasonable daily schedule is just as important that, you know, for

00:19:25 ◼   ► me, I work roughly kind of office hours, sort of nine to five. And I don't do that because it is

00:19:31 ◼   ► necessarily something that I have to do. There's not very few external pressures driving me in that

00:19:36 ◼   ► direction. But I found for my family that it was very helpful for them for me to be reliably around,

00:19:41 ◼   ► you know, when the kids get home from school, my wife knows I'm coming home, like that is a pattern

00:19:45 ◼   ► that has been super helpful. And in the earlier times in my career where I didn't take that sort

00:19:51 ◼   ► of thing, I would work till the work was done or until I felt like I was about there or whatever,

00:19:56 ◼   ► like it created these weird conflicts and tensions that even if necessarily from a work rest perspective,

00:20:03 ◼   ► weren't as destructive, but were much more complicated and had issues that were, you know,

00:20:08 ◼   ► sort of knock on effects, you know, through my life. And I think having regular schedule is an

00:20:13 ◼   ► important part of this kind of concept of being rested and recovered and ready to do your work.

00:20:17 ◼   ► Because I think people just like, we thrive on routine, as certainly I do. And so having a sense

00:20:25 ◼   ► of routine in your sort of weekly schedule and your daily schedule is just as helpful because there's

00:20:30 ◼   ► something useful I find when I come to, you know, I come to work ready to work, and then it gets to

00:20:35 ◼   ► sort of late afternoon, four or five o'clock, and I'm like, yeah, I'm ready. I think it's good for me to

00:20:39 ◼   ► leave this here. And every now and then there'll be a thing, you know, I'll text my wife and say,

00:20:42 ◼   ► oh, I'm going to be a couple hours later, because I just had a breakthrough. And I'm really in this

00:20:47 ◼   ► problem, and I'm going to work on it. And that's fine. But that is the, you know, sort of the rare

00:20:52 ◼   ► event rather than the common occurrence.

00:20:54 ◼   ► Hmm. Yeah, it's I mean, everything you're saying is things that I have told myself or the other people

00:21:01 ◼   ► have told me, and I and I think, yeah, I should do that. I don't do it. But I think I should. And it's

00:21:09 ◼   ► hard to make that jump from, I think I should to now I'm actually doing it. And to actually make that

00:21:17 ◼   ► push. I have found like, to some degree, you know, you have to, you know, when we look at the kind of

00:21:24 ◼   ► typical, you know, office space, work boss and work world, your boss wants you to be in this chair

00:21:30 ◼   ► from nine to five, and thinks if we need to, if we're behind on work, that why don't we just,

00:21:36 ◼   ► you know, make everybody come in early or stay late or work the weekend or whatever. Well, that's not

00:21:41 ◼   ► really that sustainable and doesn't really produce good outcomes. And in fact, oftentimes, if you overwork

00:21:47 ◼   ► people, you actually get worse productivity, even in the aggregate, even even the sum of it all, not

00:21:53 ◼   ► even just the per hour rate, but even the sum of it ends up being worse, because the quality goes down,

00:21:58 ◼   ► you have more problems, people start burning out. So it's easy for us as indies to be able to look at

00:22:03 ◼   ► that from the outside and say, yeah, they shouldn't work people so long. But then, are we able to extend

00:22:10 ◼   ► that to ourselves? Are we able to look at our own work patterns and say, maybe I should not work

00:22:16 ◼   ► until I go to bed every day? Like, maybe, maybe that is too much work. And maybe I should just

00:22:22 ◼   ► limit it to, you know, these hours of the day that I am most productive. And in the other hours, I

00:22:28 ◼   ► actually, not only like, am I just kind of accepting, oh, I'm tired, I guess I have to stop now. But maybe

00:22:35 ◼   ► I should actually, you know, embrace that and say, I'm going to work for these hours. And then I'm going

00:22:42 ◼   ► to choose not to, I'm going to choose to stop for these other hours over here. But that's really

00:22:49 ◼   ► hard to do.

00:22:50 ◼   ► Yeah. And I guess the thing that I would think about, and maybe it's just, obviously, this is one of those

00:22:56 ◼   ► challenging questions, but it's like the why, why do you find that difficult? You know, what about it?

00:23:02 ◼   ► And it could, the answer could be that it isn't the right solution for you. Like the solution that

00:23:05 ◼   ► I'm describing has worked super well, you know, for me and my situation and the way that my brain works

00:23:10 ◼   ► and all these things. And the reality is, as much as you and I are very similar in terms of our

00:23:15 ◼   ► background or expertise, you know, our experience, the job we do and all these things, we are very

00:23:20 ◼   ► different people. I think we know we've spent the last, you know, almost 10 years talking about the

00:23:24 ◼   ► different ways in which we work. And it's entirely possible that the answer that is right for me

00:23:28 ◼   ► is the opposite of what would be right for you. It would help you to be, to be most effective.

00:23:32 ◼   ► And I think the, but the thing, the reality is, it's probably, it's a thing to try, right? It's a,

00:23:37 ◼   ► it's a place to try and see. And if it isn't the right answer for you, I think more fundamentally is

00:23:43 ◼   ► just making sure that you are still allowing yourself the ability to feel recharged, that when

00:23:48 ◼   ► you're, when you're working, you feel engaged and productive. And if you feel engaged and productive,

00:23:53 ◼   ► awesome, whatever system that is, you know, if you're working for two hours, then taking a break for

00:23:58 ◼   ► 10 minutes every time. And then you sleep six hours. Like, I mean, we could come up with some

00:24:01 ◼   ► kind of absurd, but from my perspective, like deranged schedule, but if it was super effective

00:24:05 ◼   ► for you, like, awesome, do it. But more importantly, like finding a work, a work rest ratio and schedule

00:24:12 ◼   ► that allows you to be productive and allows you to be creative, especially like, that's the thing

00:24:16 ◼   ► that I find really goes for me, that there's certain kinds of work that I just can't do when I'm

00:24:22 ◼   ► tired or when I'm not, when I've kind of been burning the candle a bit too long for a bit too

00:24:27 ◼   ► long. Like that's where I really start to struggle that I don't have good creative solutions. I can do

00:24:31 ◼   ► like the basic boring kind of boilerplate work, but when it gets creative and interesting, it starts to

00:24:36 ◼   ► really struggle. But, you know, it's like, find that for you and, you know, and see. And as long as it's

00:24:40 ◼   ► like, if what you're doing is feel sustainable, if it feels like it isn't something wearing on you

00:24:44 ◼   ► long-term, then maybe that's fine too. But, you know, otherwise just, I'd say, try it. And it's

00:24:49 ◼   ► like, see if that, see if it feels different, see how it changes or see how you, what part of it is

00:24:54 ◼   ► useful and you could potentially take on to yourself.

00:24:56 ◼   ► Yeah, that's, that's really good, you know, because I, because I've noticed too, like when I, you know,

00:25:01 ◼   ► if I just keep burning the candle at both ends, I noticed that the quality of my work does suffer.

00:25:05 ◼   ► And sometimes like if I'm working really late on a problem and I'm just, I'm not succeeding,

00:25:12 ◼   ► sometimes I'll wake up the next morning and, and just, you know, quick aside, the way my brain

00:25:16 ◼   ► works is I carry almost nothing in my brain overnight. Like almost nothing that I was thinking

00:25:23 ◼   ► about or feeling at night is still there in the morning. It's like, it's like I have a clean slate,

00:25:27 ◼   ► you know, like some people, when they wake up in the morning, it's like they just pause their brain,

00:25:31 ◼   ► they just unpause it and they're, they're right back where they were. I'm like a reboot. I'm like,

00:25:34 ◼   ► I, my brain's rebooted. I got a clean slate, fresh day. And this makes me very forgetful,

00:25:39 ◼   ► but also, you know, it's hard for bad moods to carry through and things like that. And one of the,

00:25:42 ◼   ► big advantages in programming is that when I come back the next day to look at a problem,

00:25:47 ◼   ► I will often have a very different perspective or insight about it. I mean, Oh, this method I was

00:25:53 ◼   ► working on last night, there's a reason why I'm not getting progress there. I have it. I have a

00:25:58 ◼   ► totally different idea for a totally different way to do this. It's much simpler. And then usually like

00:26:04 ◼   ► that those, those following morning ideas, that's usually far better and ends up being

00:26:09 ◼   ► the way I go. And it's way less work and it's way simpler and has way less complexity and bugs and

00:26:15 ◼   ► everything. And I think breaks, you know, in a sense, what I am, what I do every night by sleeping

00:26:21 ◼   ► is forcing myself to take a break of sorts. Um, and so maybe that's a good indicator that I can have

00:26:28 ◼   ► success with other forms of breaks as well, besides the ones that my body biologically forces me to

00:26:34 ◼   ► take. Yeah. No. And I think that's just a useful insight to have, right? Like the understanding that,

00:26:40 ◼   ► I mean, that often happens with me with things like the classic of like going for a walk or taking a

00:26:44 ◼   ► shower and like the solution comes to you. And it's, I think there's a freshness of perspective in there

00:26:49 ◼   ► that is, is useful, but it's definitely not easy. Like I think sometimes I'm in a problem and I just want

00:26:54 ◼   ► to keep working on it until I get it. Like, why can't I do this? And it's like the reality with

00:26:59 ◼   ► both our, with our, our jobs are not like brutes, like sort of like can, it cannot be overcome by

00:27:05 ◼   ► brute strength alone. Like there's a nuance and an elegance to what we're doing that is not like,

00:27:11 ◼   ► if I just keep, if I just keep coding harder, it'll get better. Um, it's like, unfortunately that's

00:27:16 ◼   ► not the case. Um, anyway, I had a funny little pro tip that I was going to want to end up this episode.

00:27:21 ◼   ► So if you've lasted this long, I appreciate it. Maybe you're thinking about taking a break and

00:27:25 ◼   ► something that I did this last break that I wanted to just mention that was super helpful is a couple

00:27:29 ◼   ► of years ago, Apple introduced a thing called hidden apps, um, on, in iOS, which is the ability to take

00:27:36 ◼   ► certain apps and just kind of like put them in a black hole. So you'd like, you right click on it in

00:27:40 ◼   ► the app library and say like, require face ID is essentially the thing. And it's, I imagine it's for,

00:27:44 ◼   ► you know, for people in situations where there's apps that they don't want other people to know that

00:27:48 ◼   ► they're using or whatever, or require certain apps to have face ID. I've never had a personal,

00:27:52 ◼   ► I use for that in my own life personally, but I, for this last time I went on this break,

00:27:56 ◼   ► I took all my work apps. So like net news wire, I took Slack, anything related to my work,

00:28:02 ◼   ► especially things that have notifications or inputs like that set, put them into the black hole

00:28:07 ◼   ► and left them there for the week. And what was gene, what I found super helpful. And why I wanted to

00:28:13 ◼   ► mention it here is I didn't have to mess with all my notification settings and turn things off and

00:28:18 ◼   ► use focus modes and all these weird things that are super broke. Like I would find really awkward to get

00:28:23 ◼   ► back to the way that I liked them. It's just, the app was there. All the notifications like went to

00:28:28 ◼   ► Dev null. I never saw them. They just like happened in disappeared because the nature of a hidden app is

00:28:32 ◼   ► that there's no sign of it anywhere on your phone. When I got to the end of my break, I opened the

00:28:37 ◼   ► hidden apps folder, took the apps, took them back out. Everything's just like I left it. All my

00:28:42 ◼   ► notifications, all my settings are just like they were before. And so I just wanted to mention that

00:28:45 ◼   ► if you're going on a break, consider putting, you know, the things that are going to be most

00:28:49 ◼   ► detrimental to your rest in the hidden apps folder, put them there for the week, for the weekend,

00:28:54 ◼   ► whatever it is. And then know that, you know, when you come back, your settings will be just like

00:28:58 ◼   ► they were before. So a little pro tip as a, if you've lasted this long in the episode.

00:29:02 ◼   ► That's amazing. Oh my God, I should have the for Instagram. Thanks for listening, everybody.

00:29:06 ◼   ► And we'll talk to you in two weeks. Bye.