Connected

00:00:00 ◼   ► [music]

00:00:07 ◼   ► From Relay, this is Connected, episode 521.

00:00:10 ◼   ► Today's show is brought to you by Squarespace, ExpressVPN, and KRCS.

00:00:14 ◼   ► I'm one of your co-hosts, Mr. Federico Vittucci,

00:00:18 ◼   ► and I'm so happy to be joined by Stephen Hackett.

00:00:22 ◼   ► Hello, Stephen.

00:00:23 ◼   ► -Hello, Mr. Federico Vittucci.

00:00:25 ◼   ► -I like calling myself a mister.

00:00:27 ◼   ► -It's good.

00:00:28 ◼   ► -Yeah, yeah.

00:00:30 ◼   ► -It's good. You're kind of the man of the hour today.

00:00:32 ◼   ► We're going to talk about that.

00:00:33 ◼   ► -Am I?

00:00:34 ◼   ► -Your big iPhone story. We'll get to that.

00:00:36 ◼   ► -Well, I'm the man of the year, so.

00:00:38 ◼   ► -Wow. Well, technically, I think our next host,

00:00:41 ◼   ► the Ricky Benchman, is the man of the year.

00:00:43 ◼   ► -Yes.

00:00:44 ◼   ► -Ricky Benchman and Mike Hurley, welcome to the program.

00:00:47 ◼   ► -I'm the man of the year and also the man of this current period

00:00:51 ◼   ► until there's an Apple event.

00:00:53 ◼   ► -The man of this period.

00:00:55 ◼   ► -Yes, but I'm both year and period, remember,

00:00:57 ◼   ► because I have the annual and keynote, hence Spencer.

00:01:00 ◼   ► -Right, right. You're a man of many timeframes, I guess.

00:01:03 ◼   ► -That's me. And Relay co-founder champion and draft champion.

00:01:08 ◼   ► -Right, right, right.

00:01:10 ◼   ► -I'm having a winning year.

00:01:11 ◼   ► -And St. Jude content creator of the year.

00:01:15 ◼   ► -Yes. -But we share that.

00:01:17 ◼   ► -We do share that. We do. But I still am it, you know?

00:01:20 ◼   ► -Yeah.

00:01:22 ◼   ► -And you're also our friend.

00:01:24 ◼   ► -Which is the best honor of all.

00:01:26 ◼   ► -There's also that.

00:01:27 ◼   ► -Ah, you know?

00:01:30 ◼   ► -Yeah. Yeah, I'm in a good mood today.

00:01:32 ◼   ► -Good. -I had my tea.

00:01:34 ◼   ► I had some tea today before the show, instead of coffee.

00:01:37 ◼   ► It's nice.

00:01:38 ◼   ► -We also spilled the tea in the pro show,

00:01:42 ◼   ► GetConnectedPro.co.

00:01:44 ◼   ► If you want to hear Steven explain to me and Federico

00:01:46 ◼   ► all of the drama around WordPress, go there.

00:01:49 ◼   ► And if you want to hear mine and Federico's

00:01:51 ◼   ► immediate takes to that drama, also, GetConnectedPro.co.

00:01:55 ◼   ► It's good. I, in honor of the Meta Orion headset,

00:01:59 ◼   ► am drinking a smoothie.

00:02:01 ◼   ► -A.I. did not tell me how to make it.

00:02:04 ◼   ► -Oh, okay.

00:02:05 ◼   ► I was struggling to understand the reference,

00:02:07 ◼   ► but then I got it.

00:02:08 ◼   ► -Yeah, it's a little demo joke for y'all.

00:02:12 ◼   ► We'll get to that later.

00:02:13 ◼   ► But first, first, we have follow-up.

00:02:18 ◼   ► Anthony asks, "A week in, what photographic styles

00:02:22 ◼   ► are you using on your new phones?"

00:02:25 ◼   ► -Okay.

00:02:27 ◼   ► By default, standard, tone set to -0.5,

00:02:35 ◼   ► although I like editing after the fact a lot.

00:02:40 ◼   ► And so for a bunch of pictures,

00:02:42 ◼   ► I gravitate toward amber or gold as the style.

00:02:48 ◼   ► But it depends on the photo.

00:02:49 ◼   ► So, when I shoot, I shoot in standard with -0.5 for tone.

00:02:55 ◼   ► Some photos, I like to change to amber or gold.

00:03:00 ◼   ► -I'm using natural with no additional adjustments.

00:03:04 ◼   ► -Natural? -Yeah.

00:03:05 ◼   ► -That's a choice. Okay.

00:03:07 ◼   ► -It's a little cooler than standard and a little flatter.

00:03:12 ◼   ► Like you, I don't love it on all photos,

00:03:15 ◼   ► and I've definitely been tinkering with it.

00:03:17 ◼   ► And if you've got a Mac with Sonoma, no, Sequoia, geez,

00:03:23 ◼   ► if you have a Mac with Sequoia on it,

00:03:24 ◼   ► you can edit those on the Mac, the same UI shows up.

00:03:28 ◼   ► I do like gold and amber as well for some stuff,

00:03:31 ◼   ► but natural so far has been my go-to.

00:03:35 ◼   ► -I absolutely have not internalized the Mac OS name.

00:03:39 ◼   ► -The two S's in a row. -I actually genuinely --

00:03:43 ◼   ► You just said it.

00:03:44 ◼   ► I forgot it by the end of my sentence.

00:03:46 ◼   ► -Sekoia. -I couldn't remember what it was.

00:03:48 ◼   ► -Sekoia. -You know, I will just not --

00:03:50 ◼   ► I just figure I just won't learn it.

00:03:52 ◼   ► -Just call it Mac OS. -Just let it go.

00:03:54 ◼   ► Just Mac OS. -They should go back to animals.

00:03:57 ◼   ► They should do dogs for the next Mac OS release.

00:03:59 ◼   ► -Can you remember those?

00:04:00 ◼   ► Everybody knows what a dog is, you know?

00:04:02 ◼   ► -Yeah. -Yeah.

00:04:03 ◼   ► -Snow Retriever is the best one.

00:04:06 ◼   ► -Mac OS dog. -Mac OS Beagle.

00:04:09 ◼   ► -Mac OS good boy. -That's what I want.

00:04:10 ◼   ► -Mac OS good boy. -I want dog.

00:04:11 ◼   ► I want Mac OS monkey. -Oh, just --

00:04:13 ◼   ► -Mac OS giraffe, you know?

00:04:15 ◼   ► -Man, give me Mac OS monkey, like, right now.

00:04:19 ◼   ► I need Mac OS monkey. -Exactly.

00:04:20 ◼   ► -Yes. -Mac OS elephant, you know?

00:04:23 ◼   ► Like, that's what I want.

00:04:24 ◼   ► I want to go real, like, "And the Mac OS says moo."

00:04:28 ◼   ► You know, that's what I'm looking for.

00:04:29 ◼   ► -Incredible. -I use gold,

00:04:32 ◼   ► the photographic style gold.

00:04:34 ◼   ► I don't have yet, like, a standard adjustment.

00:04:37 ◼   ► I've been kind of, like, adjusting the images

00:04:40 ◼   ► within the gold preset kind of where needed

00:04:42 ◼   ► because for just taking photos of objects,

00:04:47 ◼   ► I like it kind of regular, but for taking photos of people,

00:04:50 ◼   ► I kind of dial down the tone a little bit.

00:04:52 ◼   ► So, I'm still -- I may settle on a number,

00:04:55 ◼   ► but I just haven't dialed it in yet.

00:04:57 ◼   ► If you want a bit more information about this

00:04:59 ◼   ► and some good kind of, like, presets,

00:05:01 ◼   ► Tyler Sohrman's iPhone 16 photographer's review video

00:05:05 ◼   ► is really, really good. I'm, like, halfway through it,

00:05:06 ◼   ► but Tyler does a great job of explaining photographic styles.

00:05:10 ◼   ► -He killed it this year. -Yeah.

00:05:13 ◼   ► He just knows what he's talking about, you know?

00:05:15 ◼   ► And he does a good job of showing that.

00:05:17 ◼   ► -You know, he's a lot taller than you would think.

00:05:20 ◼   ► He's really tall. -Well, Mike believes that.

00:05:23 ◼   ► -I mean, Mike knows he's taller, but...

00:05:26 ◼   ► -Yeah, I mean, I have met him,

00:05:27 ◼   ► and I genuinely don't remember how tall he is,

00:05:30 ◼   ► but just to see him that I'm looking up at him,

00:05:32 ◼   ► which says a lot about Tyler, I guess.

00:05:34 ◼   ► -He and I went for a walk one year at WWDC for, like, an hour

00:05:36 ◼   ► and just talked about life, and it was very enjoyable.

00:05:40 ◼   ► -Yep. Good dude.

00:05:41 ◼   ► -Jonathan wrote in about the Apple Watch speaker.

00:05:44 ◼   ► Jonathan has some words for us.

00:05:46 ◼   ► "I was disappointed not to hear follow-up

00:05:48 ◼   ► from my favorite Shower Speaker podcasters

00:05:51 ◼   ► on how audio on the Apple Watch performed while lathered up,

00:05:54 ◼   ► so I went into the field to test this for myself."

00:05:57 ◼   ► Okay, first of all, Jonathan, you don't shower in a field.

00:06:02 ◼   ► Shower in a shower. -Steven.

00:06:05 ◼   ► Steven, come on.

00:06:07 ◼   ► -Here are my findings. -We're better than this.

00:06:09 ◼   ► -Here are my findings.

00:06:10 ◼   ► "Unfortunately, the audio works okay when washing your hair.

00:06:14 ◼   ► Water immediately gets in the speaker holes,

00:06:16 ◼   ► muffling the audio and making it impossible

00:06:18 ◼   ► to hear when not near your ears.

00:06:20 ◼   ► This is extremely problematic

00:06:22 ◼   ► when washing my average-length eyes."

00:06:25 ◼   ► -Okay. -I mean...

00:06:27 ◼   ► -Yeah, cool.

00:06:28 ◼   ► -I wouldn't have bothered to try it

00:06:30 ◼   ► because I would have known this would have happened, you know?

00:06:33 ◼   ► Like, if you take your phone in the shower

00:06:34 ◼   ► and any water gets on it, it's like...

00:06:36 ◼   ► "That happens very quickly."

00:06:39 ◼   ► So you kind of got to get the phone

00:06:41 ◼   ► out of the way of the water.

00:06:42 ◼   ► The watch is on your wrist.

00:06:43 ◼   ► It can't be more in the way of the water, you know?

00:06:47 ◼   ► -Still, though, I appreciate how this follow-up was sent.

00:06:52 ◼   ► Clearly, Jonathan knows how to --

00:06:54 ◼   ► you know, all the references, the thighs, you know?

00:06:58 ◼   ► -I also like that they just did it

00:07:00 ◼   ► rather than asking us to do it, you know?

00:07:02 ◼   ► The best follow-up is where you've already done the work

00:07:05 ◼   ► and you just tell us what happened.

00:07:07 ◼   ► -Yeah, this is how you do it.

00:07:08 ◼   ► This is how you do the work for us.

00:07:09 ◼   ► And then send us the follow-up.

00:07:11 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah. -Send us the follow-up.

00:07:12 ◼   ► -Well done, Jonathan. Well done.

00:07:14 ◼   ► -Well done.

00:07:16 ◼   ► Don't shower in a field.

00:07:18 ◼   ► -David. -That's not what --

00:07:20 ◼   ► -It's pretty good!

00:07:21 ◼   ► -No, no, no. -No, it really isn't.

00:07:24 ◼   ► If you have to say a joke twice, it's not good.

00:07:29 ◼   ► -Please clap.

00:07:30 ◼   ► Please stop. -[Sighs]

00:07:37 ◼   ► -Speaking of Jonathan. -Yes.

00:07:40 ◼   ► -Let's now defend Jonathan, but a different one.

00:07:43 ◼   ► -A different one.

00:07:45 ◼   ► So, I, back in the spring, wrote this blog post.

00:07:48 ◼   ► We talked about it, about the Jonathan,

00:07:50 ◼   ► this weird concept computer from the '80s at Apple

00:07:54 ◼   ► that was a bunch of modules you stuck together,

00:07:55 ◼   ► like, physical, like, book-sized modules.

00:07:59 ◼   ► And that blog post did very well.

00:08:01 ◼   ► It's one of the only handful of blog posts

00:08:04 ◼   ► about the computer on the Internet.

00:08:06 ◼   ► I did a bunch of research.

00:08:08 ◼   ► So, I got an e-mail last week from a reader named Jeff,

00:08:12 ◼   ► whose uncle worked at Apple, did a bunch of stuff at Apple,

00:08:16 ◼   ► and was involved in the Jonathan Project.

00:08:19 ◼   ► And his uncle, whose name was Tom Toteman,

00:08:25 ◼   ► wrote a memo to John Sculley, Apple CEO,

00:08:29 ◼   ► trying to save the project when it was going to be canceled.

00:08:33 ◼   ► And he sent me a copy of the memo, and I republished it.

00:08:36 ◼   ► So, I'm #leaking now, internal Apple memos from the '80s.

00:08:42 ◼   ► And it's just fascinating to see this little glimpse

00:08:45 ◼   ► into this story.

00:08:47 ◼   ► The project seems to have been further along

00:08:49 ◼   ► than I or I think anybody else thought.

00:08:51 ◼   ► Like, they had packaging materials ready to go.

00:08:53 ◼   ► I don't think you do that just for a prototype.

00:08:55 ◼   ► So, now, you know, now I'm wondering, like,

00:08:58 ◼   ► is there one of these out there somewhere?

00:08:59 ◼   ► Is there someone has a Jonathan in their attic?

00:09:01 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:09:02 ◼   ► Hit me up.

00:09:03 ◼   ► - Somebody at least made a model.

00:09:06 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:09:07 ◼   ► - Right?

00:09:08 ◼   ► - Definitely.

00:09:09 ◼   ► Yeah, 'cause they're photos of a model.

00:09:11 ◼   ► - Oh, of course, that's not a render.

00:09:12 ◼   ► They didn't have renders back then.

00:09:14 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah.

00:09:14 ◼   ► The photo in this blog post is of a mock-up.

00:09:19 ◼   ► And then, in the original blog post, I had renders.

00:09:21 ◼   ► - Like, a billion dollars to render in the '80s.

00:09:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah.

00:09:25 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:09:27 ◼   ► So, yeah, just super interesting.

00:09:28 ◼   ► I just wanna point one thing out.

00:09:30 ◼   ► This memo is incredible.

00:09:32 ◼   ► But in a section called Obvious Non-Obsolescence,

00:09:37 ◼   ► he wrote, "This design quote and all capital letters

00:09:40 ◼   ► "removes the fear that this computer

00:09:43 ◼   ► "will be obsolete next year."

00:09:45 ◼   ► Removes the fear.

00:09:47 ◼   ► Pretty good.

00:09:51 ◼   ► This person definitely had skin in the Jonathan game.

00:09:54 ◼   ► - It seems like it, yeah.

00:09:55 ◼   ► - So, on last week's show, we spoke a little bit

00:09:58 ◼   ► about Federico switching to the iPhone 16 Plus.

00:10:03 ◼   ► I don't know why that name,

00:10:06 ◼   ► I still got stuck on that one, too.

00:10:08 ◼   ► But Federico, you wrote an article

00:10:10 ◼   ► about your experience of switching to the Plus.

00:10:14 ◼   ► Is there anything that you wanted to touch on

00:10:16 ◼   ► about it on the show?

00:10:17 ◼   ► Or do you just say to people, go read the article?

00:10:19 ◼   ► Which they should also do, anyway.

00:10:21 ◼   ► - No, I mean, yeah, people should read the article.

00:10:24 ◼   ► I don't know, I just feel like

00:10:26 ◼   ► it's been going really well.

00:10:29 ◼   ► And in a way that I was not expecting

00:10:33 ◼   ► to sort of have so much fun with the 16 Plus.

00:10:38 ◼   ► Because I sort of, I mean, that's basically,

00:10:42 ◼   ► I kinda ignored this part of the iPhone lineup

00:10:47 ◼   ► for the past few years.

00:10:49 ◼   ► Just because I always got the Pro Max.

00:10:52 ◼   ► And it's a fun experiment.

00:10:56 ◼   ► And I could tell that, like we spoke about this last week,

00:11:00 ◼   ► I could tell that something sort of felt off

00:11:03 ◼   ► about the Pro Max for me this year.

00:11:05 ◼   ► Or maybe I just had this thought in my mind.

00:11:08 ◼   ► And I ordered the Pro Max,

00:11:10 ◼   ► but that idea never left my brain, basically.

00:11:14 ◼   ► That like, actually you should go with the 16 Plus.

00:11:18 ◼   ► And yeah, just the idea that yes, I'm missing some features,

00:11:23 ◼   ► but not to the extent that I thought I would.

00:11:26 ◼   ► And this is something that happens,

00:11:29 ◼   ► something that I noticed is that,

00:11:31 ◼   ► especially if you are very online, right?

00:11:35 ◼   ► As we all tend to be.

00:11:37 ◼   ► There's this part of the discourse

00:11:42 ◼   ► in the Apple sphere of Mastodon and Threads,

00:11:47 ◼   ► that you should get the iPhone, the Pro or the Pro Max.

00:11:52 ◼   ► Everything else is for quote-unquote normal people.

00:11:56 ◼   ► And we are not normal people.

00:11:59 ◼   ► And--

00:12:00 ◼   ► - I mean, we're definitely not normal people.

00:12:02 ◼   ► I mean, I know what you're saying, but yeah.

00:12:05 ◼   ► - Right, right.

00:12:06 ◼   ► - Maybe in a different way.

00:12:07 ◼   ► - Right, but why?

00:12:09 ◼   ► But why though?

00:12:10 ◼   ► Or I guess, can we not be, right?

00:12:15 ◼   ► Like, I, this is one of,

00:12:19 ◼   ► like an idea that I touch upon in the story where,

00:12:22 ◼   ► like this sort of expectation that some people have,

00:12:26 ◼   ► but it's, as I wrote,

00:12:28 ◼   ► like it's also something that I had for myself,

00:12:30 ◼   ► like something that I convinced myself that I had to do.

00:12:33 ◼   ► Like always get the absolute best.

00:12:35 ◼   ► That's what you're supposed to do.

00:12:36 ◼   ► You're supposed to be getting iPad Pro,

00:12:39 ◼   ► the best Apple Watch, the best AirPods and the best iPhone.

00:12:43 ◼   ► Like, there's an expectation,

00:12:46 ◼   ► because I've seen comments from people,

00:12:48 ◼   ► like, oh, you know, those phones are like for my mom,

00:12:51 ◼   ► which is a typical argument.

00:12:53 ◼   ► And every, but like we,

00:12:55 ◼   ► the people who really care about Apple,

00:12:57 ◼   ► we get the Pro and the Pro Max.

00:13:01 ◼   ► And I feel like I've realized that,

00:13:06 ◼   ► like it was a bunch of things.

00:13:10 ◼   ► When I was watching the keynote, you know,

00:13:12 ◼   ► just all of those announcements sort of glossing over,

00:13:16 ◼   ► you know, just, and being bored

00:13:19 ◼   ► by seeing some of the advanced features,

00:13:22 ◼   ► knowing that I will never take advantage of those myself,

00:13:24 ◼   ► even though I recognize that they are essential

00:13:26 ◼   ► for a lot of folks.

00:13:27 ◼   ► And the thought of having a phone that when I look at it,

00:13:32 ◼   ► it's not the same old boring thing.

00:13:38 ◼   ► I don't know, those ideas stuck in my brain

00:13:42 ◼   ► and eventually I followed through

00:13:44 ◼   ► and I'm absolutely loving the 16 Plus.

00:13:47 ◼   ► So yeah, that's the gist of the story, really.

00:13:52 ◼   ► It's a good phone.

00:13:54 ◼   ► It'll probably get discontinued next year.

00:13:57 ◼   ► But in thinking about it,

00:13:59 ◼   ► like I think it'll be a useful experiment

00:14:01 ◼   ► not to use a Pro for a year,

00:14:03 ◼   ► because if they really do come out with an iPhone Air

00:14:06 ◼   ► that is not a Pro, but has the brand new design

00:14:09 ◼   ► and maybe trades some of the more advanced specs

00:14:12 ◼   ► for a much slimmer profile and a brand new design language,

00:14:16 ◼   ► then it's gonna be useful to having, you know,

00:14:21 ◼   ► having used the 16 Plus for a year.

00:14:22 ◼   ► - Is it not true that Apple sells more Pro phones

00:14:27 ◼   ► than regular phones?

00:14:29 ◼   ► - I don't know, is it?

00:14:31 ◼   ► - Maybe, I know they make more money from it,

00:14:34 ◼   ► but I don't know.

00:14:35 ◼   ► I feel like it depends year to year.

00:14:37 ◼   ► But anyway, I'm not trying to argue with you.

00:14:40 ◼   ► I find the points that you bring up

00:14:43 ◼   ► in the article interesting.

00:14:45 ◼   ► I mean, naturally I bristle at it, right?

00:14:48 ◼   ► Because I am someone who wants the Pro phone

00:14:53 ◼   ► and I do believe that buying the Pro phone

00:14:57 ◼   ► is the best for what I'm doing,

00:15:01 ◼   ► like from a content perspective,

00:15:02 ◼   ► not just because I also want it.

00:15:05 ◼   ► But I don't disagree with where you're coming from.

00:15:08 ◼   ► Like there shouldn't be a requirement

00:15:10 ◼   ► that that is the phone that you use because of what you do.

00:15:15 ◼   ► Like you mentioned this is like invisible social contract

00:15:20 ◼   ► that we have to buy the best thing,

00:15:21 ◼   ► which is a weird thing to have, right?

00:15:24 ◼   ► Like if you feel such a thing, it is a weird thing to have.

00:15:28 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:15:29 ◼   ► - And it's a well-formed idea.

00:15:30 ◼   ► I don't think that it, you know,

00:15:33 ◼   ► I don't think it applies to everyone.

00:15:35 ◼   ► I don't think it applies to me.

00:15:36 ◼   ► Like I buy the phone that I want.

00:15:39 ◼   ► Like if I wasn't doing this for a living,

00:15:42 ◼   ► I would still be buying the Pro phone

00:15:43 ◼   ► 'cause I want the best phone.

00:15:45 ◼   ► Like it's what I want.

00:15:46 ◼   ► And by best, I mean, quote unquote, most features.

00:15:49 ◼   ► You know, I just want all of the features

00:15:52 ◼   ► 'cause that's what I like to have.

00:15:54 ◼   ► But it's a well-formed idea that I find interesting.

00:15:59 ◼   ► I will be intrigued to see where you go from here.

00:16:02 ◼   ► So I will be intrigued, like, do you last the whole year?

00:16:05 ◼   ► I'm not saying you wouldn't, but I'm intrigued, right?

00:16:08 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, oh yeah.

00:16:10 ◼   ► - Like it is, you're feeling good about it right now,

00:16:12 ◼   ► which I understand you should.

00:16:14 ◼   ► It looks fantastic. - Absolutely, yeah, yeah.

00:16:15 ◼   ► - But it's like how, and while it's like right now,

00:16:18 ◼   ► you're like these features are all the things that I've got

00:16:21 ◼   ► I want and the things that I don't have, I don't want.

00:16:23 ◼   ► And I get all of that.

00:16:24 ◼   ► It would just be intriguing to me to see like,

00:16:27 ◼   ► do you go the full time?

00:16:29 ◼   ► And then what is your choice next time?

00:16:32 ◼   ► - Oh, if they really do the iPhone Air,

00:16:35 ◼   ► that's gonna be what I get.

00:16:37 ◼   ► - It's probably, I would expect that's the phone we all buy.

00:16:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think so.

00:16:41 ◼   ► - In that scenario, just because it will be,

00:16:44 ◼   ► I mean, but this is going back to the original thing,

00:16:46 ◼   ► like this, it will be the interesting one.

00:16:48 ◼   ► It will be the one to talk about.

00:16:50 ◼   ► So like, I actually do see that scenario

00:16:53 ◼   ► that you're referencing, right?

00:16:55 ◼   ► If it comes around to next year and they have this phone,

00:16:57 ◼   ► which is just like dramatically different

00:16:59 ◼   ► from a content creation perspective,

00:17:01 ◼   ► that's probably the one to buy, right?

00:17:03 ◼   ► Because it's going to be the one in which I can have

00:17:07 ◼   ► the most interesting things to say.

00:17:09 ◼   ► And like similarly, like even if we're like six layers down

00:17:13 ◼   ► through the stack now, there might be a part

00:17:15 ◼   ► of your brain Federico that wanted the plus

00:17:17 ◼   ► because you can tell, like in your mind,

00:17:19 ◼   ► you can tell and communicate more interesting stories

00:17:21 ◼   ► by having this phone than having the profile.

00:17:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, I feel like,

00:17:27 ◼   ► I feel like for the kind of work that I do,

00:17:32 ◼   ► so if you look at the different segments of my work, right,

00:17:36 ◼   ► the iPad has never been boring because like it or not,

00:17:39 ◼   ► there's always been drama.

00:17:41 ◼   ► So it's never been samey.

00:17:43 ◼   ► It's always been something.

00:17:45 ◼   ► The tragedy and the victory, the drama,

00:17:47 ◼   ► it's like watching a soap opera.

00:17:49 ◼   ► The Apple Watch has been also interesting

00:17:53 ◼   ► because like with the Apple Watch,

00:17:54 ◼   ► then they got bigger, then they did the Ultra,

00:17:56 ◼   ► and then they did the Ultra 2,

00:17:59 ◼   ► which was also kind of weird.

00:18:01 ◼   ► Like it's never been boring.

00:18:02 ◼   ► The iPhone has been like an incredible product,

00:18:04 ◼   ► but especially the whole run from 11 Pro Max

00:18:08 ◼   ► to 15 and 16 Pro Max has been kind of samey

00:18:13 ◼   ► year after year, right?

00:18:15 ◼   ► - Oh, but we've been here before.

00:18:16 ◼   ► Don't forget like six to 10, you know?

00:18:20 ◼   ► - Yes, exactly.

00:18:21 ◼   ► - Because I just think this is the kind of product

00:18:23 ◼   ► that is like really hard for them to be daring with.

00:18:27 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I feel like there's nothing bad.

00:18:31 ◼   ► So I guess this is the other idea of the story,

00:18:33 ◼   ► this stigma against the base model iPhones.

00:18:37 ◼   ► And where I'm coming from is there's nothing bad

00:18:40 ◼   ► in prioritizing a product that makes you happy

00:18:44 ◼   ► for reasons that are not your typical tech blog post, right?

00:18:51 ◼   ► If a product makes you happy because it's blue

00:18:54 ◼   ► and because you look at it and you're like,

00:18:55 ◼   ► "Ooh, that's hot," right, that's probably not something

00:19:00 ◼   ► that you would typically find on a tech publication,

00:19:05 ◼   ► but whatever, like if it makes me feel good

00:19:09 ◼   ► and if I'm willing to sacrifice some features intentionally,

00:19:14 ◼   ► right, give them up, because overall,

00:19:18 ◼   ► using this product is more fun

00:19:22 ◼   ► and therefore makes me feel better

00:19:24 ◼   ► and therefore contributes in a way to the work that I do,

00:19:27 ◼   ► then yeah, then yeah, absolutely.

00:19:30 ◼   ► - Me and you were talking about this a little bit yesterday.

00:19:33 ◼   ► And like I was saying to you,

00:19:35 ◼   ► I kind of feel technology for me is best

00:19:39 ◼   ► when I even treat it like it's a tool or it's a toy.

00:19:43 ◼   ► Like if I can find either of those in a thing,

00:19:47 ◼   ► it makes me happy, which is why I love my 16 Pro

00:19:51 ◼   ► 'cause compared to the Pro Max,

00:19:53 ◼   ► because its size makes it feel more toy-like to me

00:19:56 ◼   ► because I can kind of just like grab it and throw it around

00:19:59 ◼   ► and like it's easy to use.

00:20:01 ◼   ► And it makes it feel more like a toy than the Pro Max did,

00:20:05 ◼   ► which feels like something more significant

00:20:08 ◼   ► that I have to handle and deal with, so yeah.

00:20:11 ◼   ► In your article, you linked to this thing

00:20:15 ◼   ► called the Arc Pulse.

00:20:17 ◼   ► I see these on Instagram all the time.

00:20:21 ◼   ► These things are mad.

00:20:23 ◼   ► And I get why you would want to go down this route

00:20:26 ◼   ► because it's basically, they claim to give

00:20:30 ◼   ► all of the protection of a case without a case.

00:20:32 ◼   ► So it's like a two piece thing,

00:20:34 ◼   ► which is like a piece of metal

00:20:35 ◼   ► that goes around the camera kind of square

00:20:39 ◼   ► and across to the corners on the top.

00:20:42 ◼   ► And then the second piece, which is just corner to corner.

00:20:44 ◼   ► So it's like protecting the impact zones.

00:20:47 ◼   ► - I just want to use the top one personally.

00:20:52 ◼   ► - Right, okay.

00:20:54 ◼   ► That would look, yeah, that would look better.

00:20:55 ◼   ► I've always found these things

00:20:56 ◼   ► to be like a really interesting idea,

00:20:59 ◼   ► but I just don't like the way it looks.

00:21:02 ◼   ► Like it's, I don't know, it's too jewelry-y maybe.

00:21:05 ◼   ► - Yeah, it is, it is too.

00:21:07 ◼   ► But I feel like the silver with the ultramarine phone,

00:21:11 ◼   ► just the top is going to look extra nice.

00:21:13 ◼   ► - Absolutely perfect, yeah.

00:21:16 ◼   ► 'Cause I get the thing of like,

00:21:17 ◼   ► you obviously don't want to put a case of any kind

00:21:19 ◼   ► on this phone 'cause that negates one of your main reasons

00:21:22 ◼   ► for having fun, right? - I have one, I have one.

00:21:24 ◼   ► And I mean, it's a silicone case, you know,

00:21:27 ◼   ► it just completely, like you said,

00:21:30 ◼   ► completely negates the entire design and the entire color.

00:21:33 ◼   ► So yeah.

00:21:34 ◼   ► - Man, they sell a 231 pound version of this

00:21:37 ◼   ► made out of titanium.

00:21:38 ◼   ► - Jeez.

00:21:39 ◼   ► Okay.

00:21:42 ◼   ► - Do you want a 230 pound case for your phone for this year?

00:21:46 ◼   ► - Why not?

00:21:47 ◼   ► - Why not? - I just want the basic one.

00:21:50 ◼   ► But like, there's like almost a month and a half

00:21:54 ◼   ► of waiting times for orders placed today for the 16 Plus.

00:21:59 ◼   ► They're delivering mid to late November.

00:22:02 ◼   ► - At least this means they're doing the smart thing though,

00:22:04 ◼   ► which is they didn't start making them

00:22:07 ◼   ► before the phone came out.

00:22:08 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:22:09 ◼   ► - Right?

00:22:10 ◼   ► 'Cause something like this,

00:22:12 ◼   ► the tolerances have to be perfect.

00:22:14 ◼   ► Like it's a piece of metal that's wrapping around the phone.

00:22:18 ◼   ► Like they have to do it right.

00:22:20 ◼   ► But yeah, that is funny though.

00:22:22 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:22:23 ◼   ► - It's like, oh, be careful with your phone.

00:22:25 ◼   ► - But yeah, I think with this article,

00:22:27 ◼   ► like I think I'm in an interesting place

00:22:30 ◼   ► in terms of which Apple products I use.

00:22:33 ◼   ► iPhone 16 Plus.

00:22:34 ◼   ► And then on the other end, it's like iPad Pro,

00:22:38 ◼   ► 11 inch high-end model, like nano texture display, cellular.

00:22:43 ◼   ► But it's like, it's the thing, right?

00:22:47 ◼   ► It's not because it's the best,

00:22:48 ◼   ► it's because it's the nano texture.

00:22:50 ◼   ► Like it's got that unique thing that I really love.

00:22:55 ◼   ► But then at the same time, I'm using the AirPods 4,

00:22:58 ◼   ► like the base model AirPods.

00:23:00 ◼   ► And to give you another piece of follow-up,

00:23:03 ◼   ► I stopped using the Series 10.

00:23:06 ◼   ► I went back to the Ultra 1.

00:23:08 ◼   ► - You did.

00:23:09 ◼   ► - I did, I did.

00:23:11 ◼   ► Because man, even with the battery health at 90%,

00:23:16 ◼   ► so it's been going down.

00:23:18 ◼   ► It's still like the Ultra is something else.

00:23:23 ◼   ► Like I was using the Series 10

00:23:25 ◼   ► and just having to charge it every day,

00:23:28 ◼   ► I lasted less than a week with that watch.

00:23:33 ◼   ► And so the Ultra, I'm gonna try and cling on

00:23:36 ◼   ► to this first gen Ultra,

00:23:37 ◼   ► because I really don't care about the double tap

00:23:40 ◼   ► or whatever is new in the Ultra 2.

00:23:42 ◼   ► But it's getting old and I can tell

00:23:45 ◼   ► that the battery is not the same as it used to be.

00:23:48 ◼   ► But yeah, I went back to the Ultra 1.

00:23:51 ◼   ► So it's an interesting mix.

00:23:52 ◼   ► Oh, and obviously I also have the decapitated MacBook Air,

00:23:57 ◼   ► which will probably soon be replaced by a small Mac Mini,

00:24:04 ◼   ► if they really do the Apple TV sized Mini.

00:24:06 ◼   ► But yeah, it's like, I don't know.

00:24:10 ◼   ► I feel like, I really like the Apple devices

00:24:13 ◼   ► that I'm using now.

00:24:13 ◼   ► - You're living your best life right now and I respect that.

00:24:16 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think so.

00:24:18 ◼   ► I'm buying whatever I want

00:24:21 ◼   ► and I'm really enjoying the products

00:24:26 ◼   ► that Apple released this year.

00:24:29 ◼   ► Now the software is a different story,

00:24:31 ◼   ► but the products, the products are good, yeah.

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00:26:39 ◼   ► Our thanks to Squarespace for their support of the show

00:26:42 ◼   ► and all of Relay.

00:26:43 ◼   ► - So our campaign for St. Jude Children's

00:26:48 ◼   ► Research Hospital is wrapping up now.

00:26:50 ◼   ► If you wanna still make a donation, you can.

00:26:52 ◼   ► We can go to stjude.org/relay.

00:26:55 ◼   ► It's gonna be closing up at the end of this week.

00:26:57 ◼   ► But we wanted to just say one million thank yous.

00:27:02 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:27:04 ◼   ► - We've passed a million dollars raised this year,

00:27:08 ◼   ► which is a truly incredible thing.

00:27:10 ◼   ► We also have actually passed another goal,

00:27:12 ◼   ► which is $4 million raised since we started the campaign

00:27:17 ◼   ► five years ago.

00:27:20 ◼   ► - I am really struggling to comprehend this.

00:27:25 ◼   ► It's something that comes in waves of like understanding

00:27:28 ◼   ► and sinking in and then leaving again.

00:27:30 ◼   ► It's an incredible thing that our community has done.

00:27:35 ◼   ► I am so incredibly proud of what we have all done together

00:27:40 ◼   ► as podcast hosts and as working with all SAC

00:27:44 ◼   ► and with our incredible community, our listeners.

00:27:47 ◼   ► This is one of the most united things

00:27:51 ◼   ► that I felt achieving this together,

00:27:54 ◼   ► especially for us achieving it

00:27:56 ◼   ► in Relay's 10th year as well.

00:27:58 ◼   ► This has always been a dream that maybe one day

00:28:02 ◼   ► we could raise a million dollars.

00:28:05 ◼   ► But to have achieved it this year is,

00:28:08 ◼   ► it's made a very special year even more special.

00:28:11 ◼   ► And I'm so incredibly thankful.

00:28:14 ◼   ► - Probably not as thankful as Stephen though.

00:28:17 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:28:18 ◼   ► - We're both very thankful.

00:28:20 ◼   ► - We're both very,

00:28:20 ◼   ► but I think you get a little cherry on the top.

00:28:23 ◼   ► - Sure, yeah.

00:28:24 ◼   ► It is, I mean, it's just incredible.

00:28:26 ◼   ► I was telling somebody today who is aware of our campaign,

00:28:29 ◼   ► but not closely following it.

00:28:31 ◼   ► And he asked how it was going.

00:28:34 ◼   ► I was like, well, we raised over a million dollars this year

00:28:37 ◼   ► and 4 million lifetime.

00:28:39 ◼   ► And we started this just five weeks ago,

00:28:42 ◼   ► counting up to 3 million raised,

00:28:44 ◼   ► which is, the delta being that is absolutely wild.

00:28:48 ◼   ► Yeah, it's incredible.

00:28:49 ◼   ► And to me, what it says is that our community

00:28:52 ◼   ► has embraced this in a way that we hoped would be possible

00:28:56 ◼   ► in the beginning, right?

00:28:57 ◼   ► And what they did for our family saving our son's life

00:29:02 ◼   ► is something they do every day

00:29:04 ◼   ► for families all over the world.

00:29:07 ◼   ► And that million dollars that our community has given

00:29:11 ◼   ► is gonna go pay for chemo.

00:29:14 ◼   ► And food in the cafeteria and stuff in research labs

00:29:18 ◼   ► and flights for families to get in and out of Memphis

00:29:21 ◼   ► for treatment and housing and on and on and on.

00:29:25 ◼   ► We talked a lot about, in the podcast a lot in particular,

00:29:29 ◼   ► that St. Jude cares for the whole family.

00:29:31 ◼   ► And you can see how much money that takes.

00:29:36 ◼   ► And so to be able to hand a million dollars over

00:29:40 ◼   ► from the community to St. Jude is just,

00:29:43 ◼   ► it's astonishing.

00:29:44 ◼   ► So yes, thank you from the bottom of our hearts.

00:29:46 ◼   ► Thank you.

00:29:47 ◼   ► - And if it makes you feel better, it makes me even better.

00:29:51 ◼   ► It makes me feel real great.

00:29:52 ◼   ► You know, every year our community exceeds the expectations

00:29:57 ◼   ► that everybody has.

00:29:58 ◼   ► Like, we work with a bunch of incredible professionals

00:30:01 ◼   ► and every year you surprise them, so.

00:30:05 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:30:06 ◼   ► - That always makes me happy.

00:30:08 ◼   ► - Me too.

00:30:08 ◼   ► - When the fundraising professionals we have

00:30:10 ◼   ► are surprised by just how generous our community is.

00:30:13 ◼   ► And so I love that very much and it makes me feel very proud

00:30:16 ◼   ► of what we've all done together once again.

00:30:19 ◼   ► So thank you so much.

00:30:20 ◼   ► - Switching gears out of that.

00:30:24 ◼   ► - Well, this app has actually been very helpful for me

00:30:27 ◼   ► during this time period, which is Croissant.

00:30:30 ◼   ► - Croissant.

00:30:32 ◼   ► - Croissant.

00:30:32 ◼   ► This is an app made by Ben McCarthy and Aaron Vey.

00:30:39 ◼   ► And it is a cross-posting app.

00:30:41 ◼   ► And so it allows you to cross-post

00:30:43 ◼   ► across multiple social networks.

00:30:46 ◼   ► Ben had told me about this idea a while ago

00:30:48 ◼   ► and we were chatting about it.

00:30:50 ◼   ► I think we may have first spoke about it in London.

00:30:52 ◼   ► Me and Ben took a train ride together

00:30:53 ◼   ► from the Hackney Empire one day.

00:30:55 ◼   ► And I think we may have spoken about it then,

00:30:57 ◼   ► or it was not too long after that.

00:30:59 ◼   ► And I had been frequently begging Ben for a test flight

00:31:04 ◼   ► and ended up being able to get one

00:31:07 ◼   ► the day before the podcast.

00:31:09 ◼   ► And I was like, "Ben, please, I need this tomorrow.

00:31:13 ◼   ► Like, I need it.

00:31:14 ◼   ► I can't be posting manually to all these social networks.

00:31:17 ◼   ► Please help me."

00:31:18 ◼   ► I've really enjoyed this app a lot.

00:31:20 ◼   ► It's been very helpful for me during this period.

00:31:23 ◼   ► It is just one of these apps that is delightfully designed,

00:31:27 ◼   ► you know, and that's what I like about it.

00:31:29 ◼   ► It's got the right amount of flair,

00:31:32 ◼   ► which is some, but not too much, right?

00:31:36 ◼   ► And, like, the visual design is very good.

00:31:38 ◼   ► It allows you to post to Mastodon threads and Blue Sky.

00:31:41 ◼   ► And I've been using it for multiple threads accounts

00:31:45 ◼   ► and multiple Mastodon accounts.

00:31:47 ◼   ► Yeah, I think it's fantastic.

00:31:49 ◼   ► I mean, it's a weird thing that we're in this situation again

00:31:52 ◼   ► where we need something like this,

00:31:54 ◼   ► but your cohost, Brendan, who says so many smart things,

00:32:00 ◼   ► Federico, I'm sure you're aware of that,

00:32:02 ◼   ► but Brendan is a good thinker.

00:32:05 ◼   ► Brendan mentioned, like, even if you're not cross-posting,

00:32:09 ◼   ► I was looking for an app like this

00:32:10 ◼   ► when all of the Twitter Mastodon stuff was kicking off,

00:32:13 ◼   ► which is I'd want an app where I just post

00:32:16 ◼   ► and don't have to engage.

00:32:19 ◼   ► Like, sometimes I just want to post.

00:32:21 ◼   ► Like, I don't need to be in, like, looking at reply mode

00:32:25 ◼   ► or looking at timeline.

00:32:27 ◼   ► And this app is also just good for that.

00:32:29 ◼   ► Like, send things.

00:32:32 ◼   ► And Ben has especially been very open online

00:32:35 ◼   ► talking about the things that they're looking to add

00:32:37 ◼   ► to the app, like it's iPhone only right now.

00:32:40 ◼   ► They want to put it on other platforms.

00:32:42 ◼   ► I really want it on my Mac, especially.

00:32:44 ◼   ► I would definitely take an iPad version

00:32:47 ◼   ► if that's what they want to put.

00:32:49 ◼   ► I'll take the iPhone version, honestly, on my Mac.

00:32:52 ◼   ► I tried using it with, what is that thing called

00:32:57 ◼   ► where I can screen share to my iPhone?

00:32:59 ◼   ► iPhone mirroring?

00:33:01 ◼   ► It did not, like, it just was so upset

00:33:03 ◼   ► about me trying to add images.

00:33:04 ◼   ► Like, this is not a bad thing.

00:33:05 ◼   ► I think this is just, like, that is wonky.

00:33:10 ◼   ► Yeah, I think it's fantastic.

00:33:13 ◼   ► I will say, look, sometimes, once a month,

00:33:17 ◼   ► I have to post something to Twitter, right?

00:33:19 ◼   ► I'm still doing it.

00:33:21 ◼   ► I don't want to do it anymore, and we're probably going to stop.

00:33:24 ◼   ► -Wait, you are?

00:33:25 ◼   ► -I post new episodes of Cortex to a Cortex Twitter account.

00:33:28 ◼   ► -Oh, okay, not with your personal account.

00:33:30 ◼   ► -Not my own, not my own. -Oh, okay, okay.

00:33:32 ◼   ► So, once a month, I'm logging on to Buffer, and I'm posting.

00:33:36 ◼   ► And, like, Buffer's getting real expensive, gang.

00:33:39 ◼   ► Like, let me tell you, I pay so much money for one post a month.

00:33:43 ◼   ► So, I'm going to -- I want to get rid of that,

00:33:47 ◼   ► and, like, I just want them to add Twitter to this.

00:33:49 ◼   ► I know -- I hate it. I don't use it.

00:33:51 ◼   ► I don't ever want to log into it.

00:33:53 ◼   ► That's the point.

00:33:55 ◼   ► But the problem is, it's complicated, like, API-wise.

00:33:58 ◼   ► But I just -- Wouldn't it be amazing

00:34:00 ◼   ► if I could post to everything I might ever want to post to

00:34:03 ◼   ► from this one beautiful application?

00:34:06 ◼   ► Maybe I just need to stop posting

00:34:08 ◼   ► the new episodes of Cortex to Twitter.

00:34:10 ◼   ► Maybe that's what I need to do.

00:34:12 ◼   ► But I'm still doing it.

00:34:13 ◼   ► There's a lot of people there.

00:34:14 ◼   ► Like, I don't use it, but there's people there, you know?

00:34:17 ◼   ► And so, like, what am I supposed to do about this?

00:34:20 ◼   ► It's like, why do I post to anything, you know?

00:34:22 ◼   ► I'm getting a bit existential now.

00:34:24 ◼   ► But anyway, Cross Hunt is fantastic.

00:34:27 ◼   ► If you post to any accounts, I recommend it.

00:34:31 ◼   ► -Yeah, it's really good.

00:34:32 ◼   ► And we should point out Ben's incredible thread

00:34:36 ◼   ► on Macedon and threads that was full of bread jokes.

00:34:40 ◼   ► Like, they absolutely killed it.

00:34:42 ◼   ► And didn't some people get a croissant in the mail?

00:34:45 ◼   ► -So, okay.

00:34:47 ◼   ► -I didn't, and I'm a little upset.

00:34:50 ◼   ► -What would you have done with it, Stephen?

00:34:52 ◼   ► -I got a 10-year-old who loves bread.

00:34:55 ◼   ► -Okay, fair enough.

00:34:55 ◼   ► But I think that's probably the reason.

00:34:57 ◼   ► Okay, so I sat down for coffee in the morning.

00:35:00 ◼   ► Evian was making coffee.

00:35:02 ◼   ► She made me a coffee, and she gave me a plate,

00:35:05 ◼   ► and she said, "This is from Ben."

00:35:08 ◼   ► And there was a croissant on the plate.

00:35:10 ◼   ► And I'm like, "What is happening?"

00:35:12 ◼   ► I think, actually, her words were,

00:35:13 ◼   ► "I heard there's an app coming out today."

00:35:17 ◼   ► And she gave me -- I'm like, "What is happening?"

00:35:19 ◼   ► She's like, "This is from Ben."

00:35:20 ◼   ► And I said again, "What is happening?"

00:35:24 ◼   ► And, yeah.

00:35:24 ◼   ► -So, Ben had arranged for some people to receive croissants,

00:35:28 ◼   ► and that was one of these people.

00:35:30 ◼   ► -I don't take it personally, Ben.

00:35:31 ◼   ► I'm just saying.

00:35:33 ◼   ► -But you obviously do, right?

00:35:34 ◼   ► 'Cause when you say, like, "I'm just saying..."

00:35:37 ◼   ► -I'm just saying, you know, adorable 10-year-old.

00:35:41 ◼   ► No, they've killed it.

00:35:43 ◼   ► This app is awesome, and it has just so many little touches,

00:35:47 ◼   ► as you would expect.

00:35:49 ◼   ► It's great.

00:35:50 ◼   ► I'm using it a bunch.

00:35:51 ◼   ► I use it all through the campaign,

00:35:52 ◼   ► and it does lead to a question, though, I think,

00:35:55 ◼   ► of, like, if we want to talk about this briefly,

00:35:58 ◼   ► our feelings on where things are in the social media world.

00:36:02 ◼   ► -Hmm. That's a good question.

00:36:04 ◼   ► -Can I make an observation

00:36:06 ◼   ► about one of the people on this call?

00:36:09 ◼   ► -Okay.

00:36:10 ◼   ► -I think Federico has really learned,

00:36:13 ◼   ► like, a place for some takes, which I appreciate.

00:36:16 ◼   ► -Oh, yeah. -He's threatening it up.

00:36:19 ◼   ► -He's good on threads.

00:36:20 ◼   ► I enjoy Federico on threads.

00:36:22 ◼   ► Federico on threads is like, "I got a take for you."

00:36:26 ◼   ► And you're very good at it.

00:36:27 ◼   ► You have a lot of viral thread posts.

00:36:29 ◼   ► -Yeah, yeah, yeah. -You're doing very good

00:36:30 ◼   ► on threads right now. I respect it.

00:36:33 ◼   ► -Yeah, because I don't care anymore.

00:36:35 ◼   ► Yeah, to put it in a way, yes.

00:36:46 ◼   ► Yeah, that's what I was gonna say, that I am using --

00:36:49 ◼   ► I'm noticing that threads can be really good for viral stuff,

00:36:54 ◼   ► even though it doesn't necessarily translate

00:36:56 ◼   ► to much of anything in terms of, like,

00:37:00 ◼   ► are there gonna be more --

00:37:02 ◼   ► Like, of those thousands of people who see my --

00:37:06 ◼   ► Like, today, I saw your thread got 50,000 views.

00:37:10 ◼   ► Cool. Does that mean I'm getting 50,000 new members?

00:37:13 ◼   ► No. It doesn't mean that.

00:37:15 ◼   ► Like, I wish.

00:37:17 ◼   ► But, you know, if even 1% of those people, over time --

00:37:21 ◼   ► Maybe 1% of those people starts following me,

00:37:24 ◼   ► and they're like, "Who's this Bitichi guy, by the way?

00:37:26 ◼   ► Let me see whatever they do at Mac stories."

00:37:28 ◼   ► Like, it's good for the future.

00:37:29 ◼   ► You know, it's a good investment for the future.

00:37:33 ◼   ► It's very good at, like, this sort of, like, visual,

00:37:38 ◼   ► like, screenshots, screen recordings, photos, hot takes.

00:37:43 ◼   ► Unfortunately, it comes and it shares a lot of the same traits

00:37:48 ◼   ► as Twitter back in the day,

00:37:50 ◼   ► which is to say there are types of content that really work.

00:37:56 ◼   ► I'm noticing on threads.

00:37:57 ◼   ► One of them is, unfortunately, complaining about stuff.

00:38:03 ◼   ► That really works because it really fires up the people,

00:38:07 ◼   ► you know?

00:38:08 ◼   ► The other thing is, like, tips, like, teaching people

00:38:14 ◼   ► how to do stuff, like, hidden settings.

00:38:16 ◼   ► -Why is nobody talking about this?

00:38:18 ◼   ► Why did nobody -- Does anybody --

00:38:20 ◼   ► I don't know who needs to know this, but...

00:38:22 ◼   ► -Yeah, yeah. -Yeah, there's a lot of that.

00:38:25 ◼   ► There's a lot of that, because it's the algorithm.

00:38:27 ◼   ► It's a social network with an algorithm.

00:38:29 ◼   ► You can't go viral on Mastodon, like, you can't.

00:38:32 ◼   ► Like, that's not how it works.

00:38:34 ◼   ► -Obviously, threads comes with a territory.

00:38:37 ◼   ► You get a lot of awful people in your replies,

00:38:42 ◼   ► but a viral post is --

00:38:46 ◼   ► The side effect is that it is an excellent tool

00:38:50 ◼   ► to mute a bunch of annoying people

00:38:53 ◼   ► that shouldn't be allowed to post online, and yet they do.

00:38:56 ◼   ► So it's great for that.

00:38:58 ◼   ► Mastodon is also excellent for me,

00:39:01 ◼   ► but Mastodon is where, like, "Oh, Mastodon, I got my people."

00:39:04 ◼   ► You know? It's, like, it's the Mac Stories readers,

00:39:08 ◼   ► the club members.

00:39:09 ◼   ► It's a place for the more sophisticated, you know,

00:39:14 ◼   ► readers, like, where I actually discover indie developers.

00:39:18 ◼   ► Like, it's the --

00:39:20 ◼   ► Mastodon is the Mac Stories of social media, in a way.

00:39:25 ◼   ► You know, it's like, "That's my people over there

00:39:28 ◼   ► having serious conversations."

00:39:29 ◼   ► You do get the occasional hater,

00:39:31 ◼   ► but, like, to be a hater on Mastodon,

00:39:34 ◼   ► you really got to go out of your way to do that, like, you know?

00:39:37 ◼   ► I mean, it's easier to be a hater on threads

00:39:41 ◼   ► than it is on the don, as they say, so.

00:39:44 ◼   ► -Yeah, and it's more beneficial, too, which is a shame.

00:39:47 ◼   ► It's a shame.

00:39:48 ◼   ► -I enjoy both places for different reasons, yeah.

00:39:51 ◼   ► -Yeah, me, too.

00:39:52 ◼   ► That's kind of where I am.

00:39:54 ◼   ► I don't know. I have tried to, and I want to do more.

00:39:57 ◼   ► Like, I think I've kind of felt a similar split to you

00:40:01 ◼   ► where I have more followers on threads,

00:40:04 ◼   ► and I get more engagement on threads,

00:40:06 ◼   ► but Mastodon is where I feel like my real audience is,

00:40:14 ◼   ► is kind of maybe the best way to put it.

00:40:18 ◼   ► But I don't know that to be the case.

00:40:20 ◼   ► It's complicated, right?

00:40:22 ◼   ► But it feels like at least the type of stuff

00:40:25 ◼   ► that I see on Mastodon is a little bit more,

00:40:27 ◼   ► like, the typical content that I like.

00:40:31 ◼   ► But I do like threads, too, though.

00:40:32 ◼   ► Like, I actually do really like the threads algorithm

00:40:36 ◼   ► when it's serving me things that it thinks I'm interested in,

00:40:39 ◼   ► not the engagement-bait stuff.

00:40:41 ◼   ► Like, I get enough of that, and you can --

00:40:43 ◼   ► I feel like you can kind of tune the algorithm a bit.

00:40:45 ◼   ► -Yeah, you can, but you still get some horrible people

00:40:49 ◼   ► in your replies.

00:40:49 ◼   ► I'm just going to read you a couple.

00:40:52 ◼   ► This person, engagement-bait detected.

00:40:55 ◼   ► It's either engagement-bait or you are just not very bright.

00:40:58 ◼   ► So when I see this, I'll be like, "Okay, mute,"

00:41:02 ◼   ► and then you go back.

00:41:04 ◼   ► You millennials are really a cursed generation.

00:41:07 ◼   ► -Wow. -What is that in relation to?

00:41:11 ◼   ► -You're just using it wrong.

00:41:13 ◼   ► You're too slow and weird moves.

00:41:17 ◼   ► -Oh, my word. -Mute.

00:41:19 ◼   ► Like, you get a bunch of these folks, you know?

00:41:21 ◼   ► Which is fine, which is fine,

00:41:23 ◼   ► because they got to channel their whatever-it-is anger,

00:41:27 ◼   ► being annoyed, I don't know, somewhere.

00:41:30 ◼   ► But, see, these folks, they have no idea who I am.

00:41:34 ◼   ► I just popped up in their home timeline,

00:41:37 ◼   ► and somehow I have annoyed them, which is okay.

00:41:42 ◼   ► But I also want to say, like, the positive replies,

00:41:47 ◼   ► at least so far, thankfully, outweigh the negatives,

00:41:51 ◼   ► but it's very reminiscent of Twitter,

00:41:53 ◼   ► where, like, it's not like a mastodon

00:41:55 ◼   ► where you get one or two negative replies.

00:41:58 ◼   ► Here, if you have a viral post and you get,

00:42:01 ◼   ► I don't know, 100 positive comments,

00:42:04 ◼   ► you do get 20 to 25, 30 negative ones.

00:42:09 ◼   ► Like, it's a much higher ratio than mastodon.

00:42:12 ◼   ► -Turns out Twitter wasn't really the problem, right?

00:42:14 ◼   ► -No.

00:42:15 ◼   ► -It wasn't, like, the service.

00:42:17 ◼   ► -People are the problem.

00:42:19 ◼   ► -Twitter is not a place. It's a people.

00:42:21 ◼   ► Toddlers have better puzzle-solving skills than you do.

00:42:25 ◼   ► -Okay. -This is from --

00:42:27 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't want to read the username.

00:42:30 ◼   ► Yeah, there's a bunch of these folks like this, you know.

00:42:33 ◼   ► -And this is in relation to something we're going to talk

00:42:35 ◼   ► about later on in the show.

00:42:37 ◼   ► I think these responses are all about issues

00:42:39 ◼   ► you're having with the home screen, right?

00:42:41 ◼   ► -Yeah, I mean, moving icons, you know?

00:42:43 ◼   ► -Yeah. -Yeah, it's tricky.

00:42:44 ◼   ► -Toddlers can do it, Federico. I don't know why you can't.

00:42:46 ◼   ► -Yeah. -Toddlers can do it.

00:42:47 ◼   ► -Dang Millennials, you know.

00:42:53 ◼   ► There's this link that's been going around.

00:42:56 ◼   ► John put it on MacStories called "Forever Notes."

00:43:00 ◼   ► "Forever Notes" with an asterisk in the middle.

00:43:03 ◼   ► -This would do good on Threads. -Yes.

00:43:06 ◼   ► -This does good on Threads.

00:43:08 ◼   ► -I think that's where I came across it the first time.

00:43:10 ◼   ► -Yeah, same. Same here. -Interesting.

00:43:13 ◼   ► I learned about it from one of my favorite websites,

00:43:15 ◼   ► a little site called macstories.net.

00:43:17 ◼   ► That's where I found out about it.

00:43:19 ◼   ► One of my favorite writers, John Vojis, he wrote one.

00:43:22 ◼   ► -Great writer. Yeah.

00:43:23 ◼   ► So, the idea here is that -- Oh, gosh.

00:43:27 ◼   ► I can't believe I'm saying this.

00:43:28 ◼   ► So, are you guys familiar with the Para Productivity System?

00:43:32 ◼   ► -The what? -What?

00:43:34 ◼   ► -Oh, come on. P-A-R-A?

00:43:37 ◼   ► -No. -No? Nobody?

00:43:40 ◼   ► -It's like Para Productivity.

00:43:41 ◼   ► It's like when you have a relationship to productivity,

00:43:43 ◼   ► but productivity doesn't know you.

00:43:45 ◼   ► Is that what that is? -The Para method.

00:43:47 ◼   ► The Para method. -Come on. That was a good joke.

00:43:49 ◼   ► Like, this was -- That was pretty good.

00:43:50 ◼   ► -If you have to say it's a good joke, Mike.

00:43:53 ◼   ► -I didn't say it twice.

00:43:55 ◼   ► That was the thing is if you say it twice.

00:43:57 ◼   ► -So, the Para method would be where, basically,

00:44:00 ◼   ► you break up your productivity system in projects, areas,

00:44:06 ◼   ► resources, and archive.

00:44:08 ◼   ► That's P-A-R-A, Para. -Okay.

00:44:11 ◼   ► -So, basically, forever notes,

00:44:14 ◼   ► which I think is a really clever idea,

00:44:16 ◼   ► they're trying to replicate what people do with P-K-M apps

00:44:22 ◼   ► or Notion in Apple Notes for free.

00:44:27 ◼   ► -This Para thing, this is, like, Notion, right?

00:44:29 ◼   ► Like, this is -- -Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:44:31 ◼   ► -It's, like, all of these things.

00:44:32 ◼   ► -Yeah, yeah, yeah. -Notion, Obsidian.

00:44:33 ◼   ► -Yeah, yeah, yeah. -Okay.

00:44:34 ◼   ► -Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

00:44:36 ◼   ► They're all sort of coming from this creator,

00:44:39 ◼   ► Thiago Forte, I want to say, who sort of is regarded

00:44:44 ◼   ► as the inventor of this method,

00:44:46 ◼   ► which has then been kind of applied to Notion, Obsidian,

00:44:51 ◼   ► Rome, some folks trying -- -It's like GTD again, right?

00:44:56 ◼   ► Like, I'm not saying it's the same thing,

00:44:57 ◼   ► but, like, the idea that, like, GTD was an idea

00:45:00 ◼   ► that David Allen came up with,

00:45:02 ◼   ► and then a bunch of things were built on that.

00:45:04 ◼   ► And, like, this seems like someone came up with this idea,

00:45:07 ◼   ► and now a bunch of tools and systems

00:45:09 ◼   ► have been built on the back of that idea.

00:45:10 ◼   ► -Yeah, I believe the creator of the power method actually --

00:45:14 ◼   ► Steven, you're going to love this --

00:45:15 ◼   ► actually uses Evernote or used to use Evernote.

00:45:18 ◼   ► -Everyone used to use Evernote. -Well, yeah.

00:45:23 ◼   ► Anyway, the idea would be that the kind of,

00:45:27 ◼   ► like, fancy dashboards that you've seen

00:45:29 ◼   ► in Obsidian and Notion for Evernote

00:45:32 ◼   ► kind of wants to replicate that idea in Apple Notes,

00:45:35 ◼   ► which I think is really fascinating.

00:45:38 ◼   ► And it's something that, like, with all of these methods,

00:45:41 ◼   ► I'm always fascinated,

00:45:42 ◼   ► and I want to replicate them myself,

00:45:44 ◼   ► but I always feel weird about, like,

00:45:47 ◼   ► actually straight-up copying someone else's setup.

00:45:50 ◼   ► So what I end up doing every time

00:45:53 ◼   ► is I get inspired by these systems,

00:45:56 ◼   ► but then I came up with my own.

00:45:58 ◼   ► That's what I do.

00:45:59 ◼   ► But at a high level, the idea would be

00:46:01 ◼   ► that you create a central note,

00:46:04 ◼   ► which in Notion and Obsidian, you would call a dashboard.

00:46:07 ◼   ► Here in Forever Notes, they call a home note,

00:46:10 ◼   ► and that home note basically

00:46:12 ◼   ► has a bunch of links to other notes.

00:46:14 ◼   ► That's the high level.

00:46:16 ◼   ► You're using the Apple Notes feature of internal linking

00:46:20 ◼   ► to have this central note

00:46:21 ◼   ► where you link out to other places,

00:46:23 ◼   ► and these other places can be projects.

00:46:26 ◼   ► So, like, a project for me would be iOS 18 review.

00:46:28 ◼   ► It's something that is self-contained,

00:46:31 ◼   ► has a deadline, needs to happen.

00:46:33 ◼   ► it's a standalone entity, or you can link out to hubs.

00:46:38 ◼   ► In the Obsidian world, and I'm sorry for getting so deep

00:46:43 ◼   ► into these terms that I also kind of hate,

00:46:46 ◼   ► but here we are, in the Obsidian world,

00:46:51 ◼   ► people will call them MOCs for M-O-C, or maps of content.

00:46:56 ◼   ► Yeah, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know,

00:47:02 ◼   ► I know, I know, I'm sorry, but in Forever Notes,

00:47:05 ◼   ► your MOC would be what the creator of Forever Notes calls,

00:47:10 ◼   ► in plain English, a hub.

00:47:13 ◼   ► So you have these hubs that can be, I don't know,

00:47:15 ◼   ► family, you know, it's for a better reference,

00:47:20 ◼   ► what in OmniFocus and in things you would call areas.

00:47:24 ◼   ► That's sort of the idea, hubs.

00:47:26 ◼   ► So you have your family hub, you have your health hub,

00:47:29 ◼   ► and in these hubs, those are like other notes

00:47:34 ◼   ► that link out to individual notes,

00:47:37 ◼   ► like you have your health hub.

00:47:37 ◼   ► - Yeah, Notion calls these team spaces and stuff like that.

00:47:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, kind of like that, right?

00:47:42 ◼   ► So the idea would be that you can do all of this fancy stuff

00:47:45 ◼   ► with internal linking and the sub pages in Apple Notes,

00:47:49 ◼   ► and taking advantage of the many features

00:47:51 ◼   ► that Apple added over the years.

00:47:53 ◼   ► Internal linking, highlights, collapsible sections,

00:47:57 ◼   ► rich links, and I think it's very fascinating.

00:48:00 ◼   ► I wrote in my IOC team review

00:48:02 ◼   ► that I do believe Apple Notes is,

00:48:05 ◼   ► the Notes app is the best app at the moment

00:48:07 ◼   ► that Apple makes, and I stand by that.

00:48:09 ◼   ► It's an incredible app that I'm using more and more

00:48:13 ◼   ► for just personal notes.

00:48:16 ◼   ► I do all my writing in Obsidian.

00:48:19 ◼   ► Nothing's ever gonna change that at this point,

00:48:22 ◼   ► but Apple Notes, for this sort of setup,

00:48:26 ◼   ► I have been doing that myself,

00:48:27 ◼   ► but not with this kind of structure.

00:48:29 ◼   ► I always feel a little weird about sort of like

00:48:34 ◼   ► following a strict structure, right?

00:48:40 ◼   ► Like that, oh, I have to use forever notes,

00:48:43 ◼   ► and all of my notes need to be formatted

00:48:46 ◼   ► in a very specific way.

00:48:47 ◼   ► But I still think it's fascinating, and I don't know.

00:48:52 ◼   ► I kind of want to give it a try.

00:48:54 ◼   ► - I want to see someone show me this, right?

00:48:59 ◼   ► 'Cause I'm looking at the page,

00:49:00 ◼   ► and I feel like I can only surface level understand

00:49:04 ◼   ► what is actually happening here.

00:49:07 ◼   ► Like, and I've even seen some of the videos,

00:49:08 ◼   ► and for some reason it's not fully clicking into my mind,

00:49:11 ◼   ► but this seems to me--

00:49:13 ◼   ► - I can show you mine.

00:49:14 ◼   ► - I would love that, actually.

00:49:16 ◼   ► But this seems to me,

00:49:17 ◼   ► like building something like this in Apple Notes

00:49:19 ◼   ► seems terrifyingly tenuous.

00:49:23 ◼   ► I think it's more slow than tenuous,

00:49:25 ◼   ► because I think the system is pretty good.

00:49:28 ◼   ► Like the internal linking is just as smart as Notion,

00:49:31 ◼   ► for example.

00:49:32 ◼   ► If you change the name of your note,

00:49:33 ◼   ► the internal links will be renamed accordingly.

00:49:36 ◼   ► It's just slow, because Apple Notes

00:49:38 ◼   ► doesn't have a template feature, for example.

00:49:40 ◼   ► So all of those links,

00:49:42 ◼   ► and that metadata that you're adding at the top of the note,

00:49:45 ◼   ► you gotta do it manually,

00:49:47 ◼   ► because there's no template functionality.

00:49:50 ◼   ► So it's, yeah.

00:49:52 ◼   ► - I see something like this, and I find it really interesting,

00:49:54 ◼   ► but I'm like, why don't you just use Notion, right?

00:49:57 ◼   ► - Ah, because I like using Apple Notes, that's the thing.

00:50:00 ◼   ► - I don't mean you specifically,

00:50:01 ◼   ► I just mean like, it's like a general thing, right?

00:50:03 ◼   ► Like, there are tools that do this stuff,

00:50:07 ◼   ► like maybe they just don't do it the way you want,

00:50:09 ◼   ► which I kind of understand,

00:50:10 ◼   ► but yeah, when I see things like this, it makes me nervous,

00:50:13 ◼   ► 'cause I'm just like, something's gonna happen,

00:50:15 ◼   ► and it's gonna break this,

00:50:17 ◼   ► and then you're kind of like out there on the sea.

00:50:21 ◼   ► I don't know, very intriguing, very, very intriguing.

00:50:25 ◼   ► I would like to see it in action,

00:50:26 ◼   ► 'cause I think I'm just struggling to get it.

00:50:29 ◼   ► - I'm just over here using folders and subfolders,

00:50:31 ◼   ► like a plebeian.

00:50:33 ◼   ► - Nice.

00:50:34 ◼   ► - I guess, I guess the Steven system.

00:50:36 ◼   ► - The Steven system, yeah.

00:50:38 ◼   ► It's folders, and then inside there, more folders.

00:50:42 ◼   ► - Mm, wow.

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00:52:12 ◼   ► and all of Relay.

00:52:15 ◼   ► iOS 18 has been out for a couple of weeks now,

00:52:19 ◼   ► and things aren't going super great

00:52:23 ◼   ► in some corners of things.

00:52:25 ◼   ► We're gonna start with this story from Zach Hall.

00:52:27 ◼   ► Mike, what did Zach discover?

00:52:29 ◼   ► - All right, so there is, or has been, a bug.

00:52:34 ◼   ► Maybe it's been fixed by now,

00:52:36 ◼   ► but there was a bug a couple of weeks ago

00:52:39 ◼   ► where if you shared an Apple Watch face

00:52:45 ◼   ► with someone over iMessage,

00:52:48 ◼   ► it would crash iMessages.

00:52:51 ◼   ► Okay, sorry.

00:52:52 ◼   ► You needed to share,

00:52:55 ◼   ► so I would say share my Apple Watch face with Steven.

00:52:58 ◼   ► If Steven double-tapped on it and replied,

00:53:01 ◼   ► you know, you can reply to a message,

00:53:03 ◼   ► this would crash messages.

00:53:05 ◼   ► - Oh, okay.

00:53:07 ◼   ► - And it would crash messages so bad

00:53:10 ◼   ► that every time you open messages,

00:53:13 ◼   ► it would crash messages.

00:53:16 ◼   ► And the only way to fix this

00:53:18 ◼   ► is to delete the conversation completely.

00:53:22 ◼   ► But the problem was every time you open messages,

00:53:26 ◼   ► messages crash.

00:53:27 ◼   ► So real bad, and I expect by now this has been fixed,

00:53:32 ◼   ► but this is an example of some of the funny

00:53:36 ◼   ► and peculiar bugs that have been occurring

00:53:39 ◼   ► as part of the iOS 18 cycle.

00:53:41 ◼   ► But my favorite is one that Federico let me know about,

00:53:44 ◼   ► one of his viral thread posts, which is about iPad OS 18.

00:53:48 ◼   ► - Which doesn't exist anymore for the M4 iPad Pro.

00:53:52 ◼   ► It's straight up gone.

00:53:55 ◼   ► It was pulled a couple of days after it was released

00:54:00 ◼   ► for the M4 iPad Pros.

00:54:02 ◼   ► So the latest ones that came out in May,

00:54:05 ◼   ► because it was breaking some iPads,

00:54:07 ◼   ► some M4 iPads got bricked by iPad OS 18.

00:54:11 ◼   ► And to my knowledge, as of at least yesterday,

00:54:15 ◼   ► because I haven't been so online today,

00:54:17 ◼   ► but it was never re-released.

00:54:21 ◼   ► It's just gone.

00:54:23 ◼   ► And so I think it's very strange.

00:54:27 ◼   ► I have, of course, iPad OS 18 on my iPad

00:54:30 ◼   ► because I'm running the 18.1 beta,

00:54:33 ◼   ► but the 18.0 release was pulled for the M4,

00:54:38 ◼   ► never came back, nobody knows what's happening.

00:54:41 ◼   ► Some people got their devices bricked by the update.

00:54:45 ◼   ► I hope that Apple support took care of them.

00:54:49 ◼   ► But yeah, it's a strange story, right?

00:54:53 ◼   ► I mean, it's been what?

00:54:54 ◼   ► - I had no idea about this.

00:54:56 ◼   ► I did not know this was happening.

00:54:58 ◼   ► And I mean, I will say that like, I'm sure I saw it.

00:55:01 ◼   ► I've kind of over time, I ignore the news on iOS day

00:55:07 ◼   ► 'cause this always happens, right?

00:55:08 ◼   ► Like a device breaks, right?

00:55:13 ◼   ► Or like some subset of devices break

00:55:15 ◼   ► and they have to reissue iOS, this happens so often.

00:55:18 ◼   ► So I guess I would have seen this and was just like,

00:55:21 ◼   ► oh, you know, it happened.

00:55:22 ◼   ► I didn't know that it then led to there is no iPad OS 18.

00:55:27 ◼   ► Like there just isn't an iPad OS 18.

00:55:30 ◼   ► They've pulled it and they've never released it.

00:55:32 ◼   ► - Well, just for those models, just for those models.

00:55:35 ◼   ► - Just for the M4, sorry, yeah, for the M4 iPad Pro.

00:55:38 ◼   ► My expectation is they're probably

00:55:39 ◼   ► just waiting for 0.1 now, right?

00:55:41 ◼   ► - Yeah, probably, probably.

00:55:42 ◼   ► - Yeah, but it's still very peculiar.

00:55:45 ◼   ► - Something must have gone horribly wrong

00:55:47 ◼   ► in that release for the M4 iPad Pros.

00:55:50 ◼   ► I just checked on Reddit.

00:55:51 ◼   ► There's a thread in the iPad OS subreddit.

00:55:54 ◼   ► As of last night, it was not out, iPad OS 18 for the M4.

00:56:02 ◼   ► So it was pulled, never came back.

00:56:05 ◼   ► It'll come back eventually, I hope.

00:56:08 ◼   ► I mean, and then of course I joked on threads

00:56:12 ◼   ► that it's not like you would have noticed anyway

00:56:13 ◼   ► that you were running iPad OS 18.

00:56:16 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:56:18 ◼   ► But there it is, yeah.

00:56:20 ◼   ► - Man.

00:56:22 ◼   ► - You just sent us something, Steven,

00:56:24 ◼   ► that there is potentially a version of i18.0.1 coming out?

00:56:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, the Mac Roomers article is basically like,

00:56:34 ◼   ► it will be coming soon and it will hopefully

00:56:37 ◼   ► fix both of these issues we've talked about so far.

00:56:41 ◼   ► - Hopefully. - Okay, we'll see.

00:56:43 ◼   ► - But it's been what, it's been two weeks

00:56:44 ◼   ► since iOS 18 came out.

00:56:45 ◼   ► I'm a little surprised we haven't seen anything else.

00:56:48 ◼   ► It's still 18.0 running around out there.

00:56:50 ◼   ► - Why is nobody talking about this?

00:56:52 ◼   ► - Why is no one shipping software, you know?

00:56:55 ◼   ► - Yeah, I have a weird bug.

00:56:56 ◼   ► Now, I'm on the 0.1 beta, right?

00:56:59 ◼   ► So like, that's worth knowing.

00:57:01 ◼   ► But this is just one of the strangest bugs

00:57:02 ◼   ► that I've come across.

00:57:04 ◼   ► So I have always had the camera app on my home screen

00:57:09 ◼   ► and I've been a defender of this

00:57:10 ◼   ► because it gave me quick access to the camera

00:57:12 ◼   ► and one-tap access to my photo library, all in one app.

00:57:16 ◼   ► - Sure. - But now I have

00:57:16 ◼   ► camera control, I've gotten rid of it.

00:57:20 ◼   ► I replaced it with photos.

00:57:21 ◼   ► So I put the photos app, I've gotten rid of the camera

00:57:24 ◼   ► from my home screen, I put the photos app,

00:57:25 ◼   ► and I did this on, like I have multiple focus modes

00:57:28 ◼   ► and a few of them have their own home screens, right?

00:57:32 ◼   ► So I changed it out in all those places,

00:57:34 ◼   ► like in my sleep home screen, my travel home screen,

00:57:37 ◼   ► my regular home screen, and my weekend home screen,

00:57:39 ◼   ► now these.

00:57:40 ◼   ► Now, whenever my focus mode changes,

00:57:45 ◼   ► it removes the photos app from my home screen, completely,

00:57:48 ◼   ► and I have to add it.

00:57:49 ◼   ► And this happens every time.

00:57:49 ◼   ► So every time my home screen changes--

00:57:52 ◼   ► - Wait, what, wait, what, wait, what?

00:57:54 ◼   ► - Every time my home screen changes,

00:57:56 ◼   ► the photos app just is gone.

00:57:59 ◼   ► It's just removed.

00:58:01 ◼   ► - It's a little shy, okay.

00:58:03 ◼   ► - It's a little shy.

00:58:04 ◼   ► - I'm having this 'cause I switched

00:58:05 ◼   ► between light mode and dark mode, day and night,

00:58:08 ◼   ► 'cause Federico talked me into that,

00:58:10 ◼   ► and it's really good, actually.

00:58:12 ◼   ► And when I switch into dark mode at night,

00:58:16 ◼   ► a bunch of my icons disappear,

00:58:18 ◼   ► 'cause I have the icons changed, too.

00:58:20 ◼   ► So like, I'll put-- - So it's not just me.

00:58:22 ◼   ► - I think I sent y'all a screenshot in iMessage.

00:58:24 ◼   ► I'll put it in Discord.

00:58:25 ◼   ► But it's of my second home screen.

00:58:27 ◼   ► And it's like a bunch of holes are punched in it

00:58:29 ◼   ► where apps are missing.

00:58:30 ◼   ► But the labels are there.

00:58:33 ◼   ► Do you have the label for photos still?

00:58:35 ◼   ► Do you know?

00:58:36 ◼   ► - No, no, it's gone.

00:58:37 ◼   ► And the apps have reflowed, which is also funny.

00:58:41 ◼   ► It doesn't leave the gap.

00:58:42 ◼   ► - Okay, that's not what I'm seeing.

00:58:44 ◼   ► You're seeing a different thing.

00:58:45 ◼   ► - It's straight up gone.

00:58:47 ◼   ► Like, it's just gone.

00:58:48 ◼   ► And I just tried it now.

00:58:51 ◼   ► Like, I just set it to my weekend focus mode.

00:58:53 ◼   ► It's not there.

00:58:54 ◼   ► It's just not there.

00:58:55 ◼   ► And I don't understand what's happening.

00:58:58 ◼   ► And I have to keep adding it every day

00:59:02 ◼   ► at least once to a home screen.

00:59:04 ◼   ► It's incredible.

00:59:04 ◼   ► - So good.

00:59:05 ◼   ► Some people on Discord are saying that they see it, too,

00:59:09 ◼   ► which is wild.

00:59:10 ◼   ► Emma asked, "Why is it so broken?"

00:59:13 ◼   ► Yeah, that's a good question.

00:59:16 ◼   ► - That's a really good question.

00:59:17 ◼   ► - Also, we're at a point-- - I mean, this is a beta.

00:59:18 ◼   ► - It is a beta.

00:59:19 ◼   ► - I am genuine.

00:59:20 ◼   ► I'm on the beta, right?

00:59:21 ◼   ► So like, I'm giving them some slack.

00:59:23 ◼   ► But it is, it's just funny.

00:59:25 ◼   ► One thing I'm happy about, though,

00:59:27 ◼   ► on 18, the app library didn't have the kind of, like,

00:59:32 ◼   ► frosted look behind it.

00:59:35 ◼   ► But on 18.1, it's back, which I'm very happy about.

00:59:37 ◼   ► 'Cause I found that quite disorientating in a reason,

00:59:39 ◼   ► in a way that I'm not sure why.

00:59:40 ◼   ► - Oh, really?

00:59:41 ◼   ► - I'm happy about that.

00:59:41 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:59:42 ◼   ► - Oh, yeah, look at that.

00:59:43 ◼   ► I've got a 18.0 phone here on my desk.

00:59:46 ◼   ► Yeah, that's awful.

00:59:48 ◼   ► - But I don't know why it looks so bad,

00:59:51 ◼   ► but it just doesn't look right.

00:59:53 ◼   ► - But on point one, it's back to the way it used to look,

00:59:55 ◼   ► which is having the kind of frosted glass look.

00:59:58 ◼   ► - That's good.

00:59:59 ◼   ► - Now, what we were talking about earlier on

01:00:01 ◼   ► that Federico was getting told

01:00:03 ◼   ► that he was a toddler about is,

01:00:05 ◼   ► you posted a video of, like, just how hard it still is

01:00:10 ◼   ► to move icons on the home screen.

01:00:15 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:00:15 ◼   ► - Which is really weird.

01:00:17 ◼   ► Like, I will admit, like, to move them and keep spaces.

01:00:21 ◼   ► I've not done this.

01:00:22 ◼   ► I've not really played around with this

01:00:23 ◼   ► 'cause it's just not something that I need to do.

01:00:26 ◼   ► I like how my home screen is,

01:00:28 ◼   ► but you've wanted to kind of move them around,

01:00:30 ◼   ► and you post a video where it's kind of showing

01:00:32 ◼   ► that, like, they're just seemingly unnecessarily moving.

01:00:37 ◼   ► Like, if you want to move an icon,

01:00:41 ◼   ► it tries to put something in its place,

01:00:43 ◼   ► which doesn't need to happen anymore

01:00:46 ◼   ► 'cause you're allowed to have gaps.

01:00:48 ◼   ► - Exactly, exactly.

01:00:49 ◼   ► - Especially when the selling point of iOS 18 is,

01:00:52 ◼   ► and I checked apple.com again.

01:00:54 ◼   ► They literally say place your icons wherever you want.

01:00:58 ◼   ► So, like, but it seems that under the hood,

01:01:03 ◼   ► the system is still kind of following the old grid layout.

01:01:08 ◼   ► And so they're still doing the reflowing,

01:01:10 ◼   ► the placing another icon in the spot that you just emptied.

01:01:14 ◼   ► So there's still a grid underneath,

01:01:16 ◼   ► and it just gets in the way.

01:01:18 ◼   ► And the consensus seems to be

01:01:20 ◼   ► that if you really do want to place your icons anywhere,

01:01:24 ◼   ► the only method to do it,

01:01:27 ◼   ► so that you don't go crazy like I did last night,

01:01:32 ◼   ► is you got to create an empty page and start from scratch

01:01:35 ◼   ► and place your icons one by one

01:01:38 ◼   ► in the layout that you want.

01:01:39 ◼   ► That is, and that's what I've done.

01:01:41 ◼   ► Eventually, I just gave up, and I'm like, okay, fine.

01:01:44 ◼   ► I'll just create a new page,

01:01:46 ◼   ► and I'll drag the icons one by one exactly where I want them,

01:01:50 ◼   ► because if I try and edit this existing page,

01:01:53 ◼   ► it's not gonna do it.

01:01:54 ◼   ► Like, it's not gonna do it.

01:01:55 ◼   ► And it's not just a home screen.

01:01:58 ◼   ► Control center is just as equally bad

01:02:03 ◼   ► in terms of, like, you're trying to drag something,

01:02:05 ◼   ► and you're like, okay, I want to take this control,

01:02:08 ◼   ► and I want to drag it down in the left corner.

01:02:11 ◼   ► And then as you do that, another control puts up

01:02:14 ◼   ► and be like, hey, I guess I'll go up now.

01:02:17 ◼   ► And it just, and it takes the spot of the previous control.

01:02:21 ◼   ► It's like, no, just stay there.

01:02:23 ◼   ► I just want to drag this one, and it doesn't do it.

01:02:26 ◼   ► So I also want to say that for a minute this summer,

01:02:31 ◼   ► it got better.

01:02:34 ◼   ► There was a moment this summer

01:02:36 ◼   ► where dragging things around the home screen

01:02:41 ◼   ► was kind of perfect, and then it wasn't anymore.

01:02:45 ◼   ► And it really seems like it was a person at Apple

01:02:50 ◼   ► that came up with this new logic, and it was great,

01:02:54 ◼   ► but somehow that person got fired,

01:02:57 ◼   ► and we went back to the previous drag-and-drop logic.

01:03:01 ◼   ► - But I think this is an example of my favorite phrase

01:03:04 ◼   ► I've ever come up with, which is institutional one-personism,

01:03:08 ◼   ► where there was somebody at Apple who's like,

01:03:11 ◼   ► yeah, but what about the people that are going to be confused

01:03:14 ◼   ► that the apps aren't moving on their own?

01:03:17 ◼   ► There is this fake person that is created

01:03:21 ◼   ► that everybody's worried won't understand

01:03:23 ◼   ► how to move their apps anymore.

01:03:25 ◼   ► And so then they kind of go to this weird halfway,

01:03:29 ◼   ► where you can move them where you want,

01:03:32 ◼   ► but not if they're already in place.

01:03:34 ◼   ► And it's like, okay, so I can do it,

01:03:38 ◼   ► but there is this fear that if they change it completely

01:03:41 ◼   ► from the way that it used to work,

01:03:43 ◼   ► that people aren't going to understand what to do.

01:03:45 ◼   ► And I find that kind of stuff to be really peculiar.

01:03:47 ◼   ► And I would be more willing to accept this

01:03:50 ◼   ► if I had any indication that Apple did use a testing.

01:03:54 ◼   ► Like, 'cause it may be, genuinely,

01:03:56 ◼   ► that they put this thing in front of a thousand people,

01:03:59 ◼   ► and they couldn't understand

01:04:01 ◼   ► how to make their home screens work anymore.

01:04:03 ◼   ► And so they kind of made this weird half-step.

01:04:05 ◼   ► But I'm not convinced that Apple does that kind of stuff.

01:04:09 ◼   ► - But are we really sure

01:04:11 ◼   ► that the automatic reflow is even good?

01:04:15 ◼   ► Like, isn't it easier to explain to somebody,

01:04:18 ◼   ► take this icon and place it whatever you want,

01:04:22 ◼   ► and nothing else happens?

01:04:23 ◼   ► - I think so.

01:04:24 ◼   ► 'Cause you end up in a scenario where moving one icon,

01:04:27 ◼   ► you have to move two icons.

01:04:28 ◼   ► - Exactly, like it's exactly backwards.

01:04:31 ◼   ► It doesn't make any sense.

01:04:33 ◼   ► Like, the easier solution would be just, yeah,

01:04:36 ◼   ► take this icon, place it whatever you want, that's it.

01:04:40 ◼   ► You don't, because with this method,

01:04:43 ◼   ► you're introducing something else you need to worry about,

01:04:46 ◼   ► which is I'm moving this icon,

01:04:47 ◼   ► but other icons will also move, so yeah.

01:04:51 ◼   ► - While we're on this,

01:04:52 ◼   ► I have enough of a funny thing that I find.

01:04:55 ◼   ► I feel bad, sometimes I feel bad for software developers,

01:04:57 ◼   ► and this is one of them.

01:04:58 ◼   ► So in Control Center, there is a type of action,

01:05:02 ◼   ► I think that is just called home,

01:05:04 ◼   ► where you can create essentially a,

01:05:08 ◼   ► by default, this like home control

01:05:12 ◼   ► will just select a recommended set of home,

01:05:16 ◼   ► like things in your home, right?

01:05:19 ◼   ► But this is the same as the widget on the home screen.

01:05:21 ◼   ► But you can uncheck a toggle, it says use recommended,

01:05:26 ◼   ► and choose your own accessories, right?

01:05:29 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, you can.

01:05:30 ◼   ► That's what I do.

01:05:31 ◼   ► The problem is, if you do this,

01:05:34 ◼   ► the layout order that you choose

01:05:37 ◼   ► is divorced from reality, all right?

01:05:42 ◼   ► - What do you mean?

01:05:44 ◼   ► - So I wanted to have the top two home controls

01:05:49 ◼   ► in this list, right?

01:05:52 ◼   ► If the things that I've chosen rather than the recommended,

01:05:55 ◼   ► to be here at the studio, I have a lamp, I have two lamps.

01:06:00 ◼   ► I have a lamp in the lounge and a lamp on my desk, right?

01:06:03 ◼   ► So naturally, you would assume,

01:06:04 ◼   ► if you want your first two options at the top of a list,

01:06:09 ◼   ► that you would choose option one and option two, right?

01:06:15 ◼   ► So you go like one, two, in a list,

01:06:19 ◼   ► and then when you go to the actions,

01:06:20 ◼   ► you would see the first one is on the left on the top row,

01:06:23 ◼   ► and the first one is on the right on the top row, right?

01:06:25 ◼   ► That makes sense?

01:06:27 ◼   ► That's not how it works, I don't know why.

01:06:30 ◼   ► So I'm gonna give you an example, all right?

01:06:32 ◼   ► What I want is for my top two rows to be lounge lamp,

01:06:37 ◼   ► recording lamp, and then left radiator, right radiator,

01:06:41 ◼   ► right, one, two, three, four, top two rows.

01:06:45 ◼   ► The way I've had to arrange this

01:06:46 ◼   ► is lamp one, radiator one, lamp two, radiator two.

01:06:51 ◼   ► - That sounds a little bit how you rearrange things

01:06:57 ◼   ► in CarPlay, which is a grid,

01:06:59 ◼   ► and you move them up and down a list on your iPhone,

01:07:01 ◼   ► and just hope they end up in the right place.

01:07:03 ◼   ► - It doesn't make sense, like what is it,

01:07:05 ◼   ► what is the grid that it thinks is happening here?

01:07:08 ◼   ► - I don't know.

01:07:08 ◼   ► - Because that doesn't make any sense,

01:07:10 ◼   ► because my grid is two by five.

01:07:13 ◼   ► To truly understand what I'm saying here,

01:07:16 ◼   ► you have to try this out for yourself.

01:07:18 ◼   ► Like you go to the home action, you tap it,

01:07:21 ◼   ► you turn off recommended and choose your actions,

01:07:24 ◼   ► it's bewildering the way that you have to construct the list.

01:07:29 ◼   ► It like doesn't make any sense.

01:07:30 ◼   ► For me, the only way I've been able to get things

01:07:32 ◼   ► where I want is I have to just keep moving things by one

01:07:35 ◼   ► and seeing if it's ended up in the place that I like.

01:07:37 ◼   ► It's incredible.

01:07:39 ◼   ► It's a really, truly mad bug that I love.

01:07:43 ◼   ► Look, I understand what's going on here.

01:07:48 ◼   ► I know what's going on here.

01:07:50 ◼   ► It's been all hands on deck for Apple intelligence.

01:07:54 ◼   ► Like that's what's happening this year.

01:07:55 ◼   ► - Maybe AI could fix your widget.

01:07:57 ◼   ► - Maybe it could.

01:07:58 ◼   ► But I try to be even kill with this,

01:08:03 ◼   ► where it's like I can have a little bit of sympathy,

01:08:05 ◼   ► but also this company has infinite resources.

01:08:08 ◼   ► But in this scenario this time,

01:08:12 ◼   ► I do kind of feel a little bit more sympathy

01:08:15 ◼   ► than I do in other years when they have weird bug stuff

01:08:17 ◼   ► where it's like, they're trying their best out here,

01:08:21 ◼   ► but everybody's being pulled in every possible direction.

01:08:24 ◼   ► However, they have the ability to fix this.

01:08:27 ◼   ► - Yeah, and maybe 18.01 has taken a little more time

01:08:31 ◼   ► to knock a bunch of this stuff out.

01:08:33 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, these bugs that I'm talking about,

01:08:36 ◼   ► they're still here in point one.

01:08:37 ◼   ► - But so 18.0 and 18.1 are very similar.

01:08:42 ◼   ► Like during the beta process,

01:08:44 ◼   ► bugs got fixed in both branches, and so.

01:08:47 ◼   ► - So I would expect maybe things to be,

01:08:51 ◼   ► some of this stuff to be fixed in,

01:08:52 ◼   ► well, if I'm gonna use 18.2.

01:08:54 ◼   ► - Maybe. - It would more likely

01:08:56 ◼   ► be there, maybe. - Maybe.

01:08:57 ◼   ► - It's very confusing. - Or maybe it would just,

01:08:58 ◼   ► stuff will be really broken for a long time.

01:09:00 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, welcome to Federico and I summer,

01:09:02 ◼   ► running these things like it was, it got weird.

01:09:05 ◼   ► The last thing I wanna mention, WatchOS 11,

01:09:07 ◼   ► some people, including Dan Morin, our friend of Clockwise,

01:09:12 ◼   ► Apple watches just stop telling time.

01:09:14 ◼   ► They don't update the time until you tap on the screen.

01:09:17 ◼   ► Which is. - Sure.

01:09:18 ◼   ► - About the worst thing I can think of

01:09:19 ◼   ► for an Apple watch to do.

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01:10:42 ◼   ► - So do you guys want to talk about glasses?

01:10:45 ◼   ► - Always, here we go.

01:10:47 ◼   ► - Obviously I'm referring to the Meta Orion prototype,

01:10:50 ◼   ► which has, I don't know.

01:10:53 ◼   ► I feel like it's been interesting to watch the reaction

01:10:56 ◼   ► to Meta announcing the Orion prototype.

01:10:59 ◼   ► I would, as I always do, I would urge connected listeners

01:11:02 ◼   ► to also listen to the segment on upgrade

01:11:06 ◼   ► that you and Jason did about the perception

01:11:09 ◼   ► of the Meta Orion prototype.

01:11:11 ◼   ► Meta Orion prototype and what it means for the Vision Pro,

01:11:13 ◼   ► what it doesn't mean for the Vision Pro,

01:11:15 ◼   ► what it means for Apple in general.

01:11:17 ◼   ► I feel like it's,

01:11:21 ◼   ► okay, I guess I'm gonna share the hot take.

01:11:25 ◼   ► I think Meta did the right thing

01:11:31 ◼   ► in showing off the prototype.

01:11:33 ◼   ► And I know it's a prototype, right?

01:11:37 ◼   ► I know what that word means.

01:11:39 ◼   ► And I know that it's not gonna be a release product.

01:11:43 ◼   ► But I think people who really like Apple on the internet

01:11:48 ◼   ► are getting too fixated on this idea that it's a prototype,

01:11:54 ◼   ► that it's not something that it's gonna ship.

01:11:56 ◼   ► Because they're not considering the consequence

01:11:59 ◼   ► of sharing a prototype, which is the public perception.

01:12:03 ◼   ► And that is something that is intangible,

01:12:06 ◼   ► that you cannot buy, that you cannot explain.

01:12:09 ◼   ► Right now, to the eyes of the people,

01:12:13 ◼   ► people like my mother who asked me about this,

01:12:16 ◼   ► because she saw them on TV, to the eyes of the people,

01:12:20 ◼   ► Meta is further ahead than Apple, right?

01:12:24 ◼   ► This is one of those cases where I know it's kind of silly,

01:12:29 ◼   ► and it's untrue, right?

01:12:31 ◼   ► Because for all we know, Apple may be further ahead

01:12:33 ◼   ► than Meta in their labs.

01:12:35 ◼   ► We don't know.

01:12:36 ◼   ► - It's not untrue.

01:12:37 ◼   ► This is like a Pandora's box kind of situation, right?

01:12:39 ◼   ► - Exactly.

01:12:40 ◼   ► But as a PR move, because this is a PR move,

01:12:43 ◼   ► as a PR move, it's an excellent move, right?

01:12:48 ◼   ► And to combine that, it's not just an announcement,

01:12:53 ◼   ► to combine that with hands-on, right?

01:12:56 ◼   ► With videos and interviews from other creators,

01:13:00 ◼   ► it's just a masterstroke, in my opinion.

01:13:02 ◼   ► And it's sort of the perfect follow-up

01:13:07 ◼   ► to all the things that Zuckerberg has been saying

01:13:10 ◼   ► over the past year about the Vision Pro

01:13:12 ◼   ► and Meta's different approach with the Quest, right?

01:13:15 ◼   ► I just feel like, and obviously, I mean, the product itself,

01:13:18 ◼   ► we all, I think we're all in agreement.

01:13:21 ◼   ► Even the people who absolutely love the Vision Pro

01:13:23 ◼   ► are all in agreement that this is the future, right?

01:13:26 ◼   ► This is the kind of product that we're sort of

01:13:29 ◼   ► speed running toward, is the glasses that can project

01:13:32 ◼   ► an inner phrase in front of your eyes.

01:13:33 ◼   ► This is the thing, this is the goal.

01:13:36 ◼   ► And it's, I will share the sentiment that Jason shared,

01:13:40 ◼   ► that I thought this was gonna be like 10 years from now.

01:13:43 ◼   ► Now I think it's probably four to five years from now.

01:13:46 ◼   ► It's a much more accelerated timeline than I thought.

01:13:50 ◼   ► But I feel like the people who are poking fun at Meta

01:13:54 ◼   ► and the people who are poking fun at other people

01:13:55 ◼   ► who are excited about this are missing the big picture,

01:13:58 ◼   ► which is, it's a PR move, it's extremely clever,

01:14:02 ◼   ► and it serves, is the kind of PR move that sort of

01:14:05 ◼   ► raises all Meta boats in the sense that

01:14:10 ◼   ► it creates the perception that Meta is further ahead

01:14:14 ◼   ► and it contributes to the bottom line of Meta saying,

01:14:17 ◼   ► "But in the meantime, look at our VR headsets,

01:14:19 ◼   ► "where we're also doing AR

01:14:21 ◼   ► "and they're much cheaper than Apple."

01:14:23 ◼   ► So with this combo, Meta painted a picture

01:14:27 ◼   ► of Apple as-- - And the glasses, right?

01:14:28 ◼   ► And also get ready for this. - And yes.

01:14:32 ◼   ► Meta is painting a picture of Apple

01:14:33 ◼   ► as the company that is behind

01:14:35 ◼   ► and what they do have today is too expensive.

01:14:38 ◼   ► That's my take.

01:14:38 ◼   ► - No, it's-- - I think it's good.

01:14:41 ◼   ► Completely correct.

01:14:42 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's good, I agree.

01:14:44 ◼   ► I think it's fascinating how different these companies are

01:14:49 ◼   ► and like Facebook just skipped to the end of like,

01:14:53 ◼   ► this is where this is going.

01:14:54 ◼   ► And they basically defined the next decade

01:14:57 ◼   ► of this category in one move

01:15:00 ◼   ► and Apple waits until they have something that is,

01:15:03 ◼   ► you know, they will let the industry move forward

01:15:06 ◼   ► without them and then they jump in, right?

01:15:07 ◼   ► It's kind of their move with the iPod, the phone, the watch,

01:15:11 ◼   ► maybe Vision Pro, maybe not Vision Pro.

01:15:14 ◼   ► But Meta just is like, "Hey, no, this is where we're going.

01:15:17 ◼   ► "You know, obviously this is not the product,

01:15:19 ◼   ► "but this is what we think the product will be like."

01:15:21 ◼   ► And it does make everything else look old, you know?

01:15:24 ◼   ► The best pass-through,

01:15:25 ◼   ► I think Ben Thompson said this on Dithering,

01:15:26 ◼   ► but the best pass-through is like

01:15:28 ◼   ► actually just seeing the world, right?

01:15:30 ◼   ► Where you don't need the camera and the screens

01:15:33 ◼   ► and everything between you and the outside world.

01:15:36 ◼   ► And clearly that's where they wanna get this to and--

01:15:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, I don't like that take from Ben.

01:15:42 ◼   ► - Really?

01:15:44 ◼   ► - Because that is the assumption that Apple's pass-through

01:15:49 ◼   ► is how they imagine this will always be.

01:15:52 ◼   ► Like when Apple creates glasses,

01:15:56 ◼   ► they're not gonna put screens on the glasses, right?

01:16:00 ◼   ► Like that cover your eyes.

01:16:03 ◼   ► Apple's pass-through is great for the fact

01:16:06 ◼   ► that there will probably always be

01:16:08 ◼   ► some element of a VR headset.

01:16:10 ◼   ► Like yes, of course, but I don't think that it means

01:16:15 ◼   ► that Apple was wrong with all of the efforts

01:16:18 ◼   ► that they put into making great pass-through on the Pro.

01:16:21 ◼   ► - It's what they could do for now, but I think--

01:16:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, but A something like a Vision Pro

01:16:28 ◼   ► will always have screens in front, 'cause you can't,

01:16:32 ◼   ► if there is still going to be a future in the world

01:16:34 ◼   ► of an immersive environment,

01:16:36 ◼   ► these glasses will never do that,

01:16:38 ◼   ► 'cause it's not what they're for.

01:16:40 ◼   ► - And maybe Ben is arguing that that was a wrong move,

01:16:44 ◼   ► I don't know, but it is,

01:16:47 ◼   ► if the end goal is not immersion,

01:16:50 ◼   ► if the end goal is I want digital things interlaid

01:16:54 ◼   ► with the actual world, then Orion is closer to that

01:16:58 ◼   ► than the Vision Pro is.

01:17:00 ◼   ► - But I think there are two end goals.

01:17:02 ◼   ► - Maybe.

01:17:03 ◼   ► - There is AR and VR.

01:17:04 ◼   ► Like I think that those are two separate products.

01:17:07 ◼   ► Like you can't watch a 3D movie in something like the Orion.

01:17:11 ◼   ► - No, but Apple talks about AR.

01:17:13 ◼   ► They don't, Apple doesn't like VR terminology,

01:17:16 ◼   ► and so they're talking about one thing--

01:17:17 ◼   ► - Right, but they use immersive, right?

01:17:18 ◼   ► But like you can't have an immersive environment

01:17:21 ◼   ► in something that you can see through.

01:17:23 ◼   ► Like that's-- - True.

01:17:24 ◼   ► - You can't have immersion in that.

01:17:26 ◼   ► Like there are two things, right?

01:17:28 ◼   ► - Competition is good, it turns out, right?

01:17:31 ◼   ► - That's fantastic.

01:17:31 ◼   ► - These are different ideas,

01:17:33 ◼   ► and they're going about it in different ways.

01:17:35 ◼   ► And maybe the answer maybe is right,

01:17:37 ◼   ► there will be distinct AR and VR products,

01:17:41 ◼   ► and you can choose.

01:17:42 ◼   ► Maybe there's something in the middle,

01:17:44 ◼   ► or maybe one dies on the vine and the other takes over.

01:17:47 ◼   ► Like we just don't know.

01:17:48 ◼   ► - Yeah, like Meta makes both types of product, right?

01:17:51 ◼   ► They have the Quest, and they have the Ray-Bans,

01:17:55 ◼   ► and also Orion in that category too.

01:17:57 ◼   ► Like they are two sets of products that they make.

01:18:00 ◼   ► But yes, what they have done here is genius.

01:18:04 ◼   ► Like it's genius.

01:18:05 ◼   ► And it also solves a big problem that Zuckerberg has,

01:18:08 ◼   ► which is what have you been doing with all that money?

01:18:11 ◼   ► - Yeah. - Yeah.

01:18:12 ◼   ► - Right? - Yeah.

01:18:13 ◼   ► - And now everyone's like, yay, spend more money, right?

01:18:16 ◼   ► Because if you're an investor in Meta,

01:18:19 ◼   ► this is what you want them to be doing.

01:18:21 ◼   ► - Yeah, and you can use it as a bargain and chip.

01:18:23 ◼   ► You can say, well, do you want me to keep working on this

01:18:27 ◼   ► or not? - I need more money.

01:18:28 ◼   ► (both laughing)

01:18:31 ◼   ► - I mean, yeah.

01:18:31 ◼   ► And I don't know, I just feel, in the meantime,

01:18:35 ◼   ► I kind of want to wrap it up by saying that in the meantime,

01:18:39 ◼   ► Meta is just there with the Ray-Bans

01:18:42 ◼   ► having an absolutely killer product,

01:18:45 ◼   ► and they're making more versions.

01:18:47 ◼   ► They are my, and I'm gonna write about this

01:18:49 ◼   ► before the end of the year, I promise.

01:18:51 ◼   ► They are my accessory of the year.

01:18:54 ◼   ► Like it's, they're continuing to issue software updates.

01:18:58 ◼   ► They're doing more Meta AI integrations,

01:19:03 ◼   ► which I don't particularly care about,

01:19:05 ◼   ► but other people will.

01:19:06 ◼   ► They're teaming up with Spotify and other music services

01:19:09 ◼   ► for better controls.

01:19:10 ◼   ► Like they're doing what I still think

01:19:14 ◼   ► that Apple should do, which is be humble

01:19:18 ◼   ► and release a product that is not really AR,

01:19:23 ◼   ► but it's a wearable product that has cameras

01:19:27 ◼   ► and that sort of acts as a cheap, maybe not revolutionary,

01:19:32 ◼   ► but very practical and very good looking sort of half step

01:19:37 ◼   ► to get to that point, to get people used to the idea,

01:19:40 ◼   ► oh, you're wearing glasses with batteries

01:19:42 ◼   ► and speakers inside, right?

01:19:44 ◼   ► I think it's really clever,

01:19:46 ◼   ► and I really do wish that Apple changed their mind

01:19:51 ◼   ► about this type of product.

01:19:52 ◼   ► Yes, it's not gonna have UI in front of your eyes,

01:19:57 ◼   ► but still, like imagine this product

01:20:01 ◼   ► with the quality of AirPods

01:20:03 ◼   ► and the cameras that Apple can make

01:20:04 ◼   ► and the Siri integration and Apple intelligence, of course.

01:20:08 ◼   ► Yeah, I think, I gotta be honest,

01:20:11 ◼   ► I thought for a second this week,

01:20:12 ◼   ► like, oh, maybe I should kind of, I don't know,

01:20:15 ◼   ► sell my Vision Pro and get a meta quest instead.

01:20:19 ◼   ► I haven't done it.

01:20:20 ◼   ► I'm not gonna do it.

01:20:21 ◼   ► I'm not gonna do it. - You're gonna take a bath

01:20:21 ◼   ► on it.

01:20:23 ◼   ► - I'm not gonna do it.

01:20:24 ◼   ► - I don't think it's worth getting a quest.

01:20:25 ◼   ► I don't really, like do you wanna play a bunch of games?

01:20:29 ◼   ► Like if that's the reason to do it, do it,

01:20:30 ◼   ► but like their like productivity suite

01:20:33 ◼   ► is nowhere near as good as Apple's.

01:20:35 ◼   ► Like if that's the thing that you care about or want

01:20:37 ◼   ► or whatever, I don't know.

01:20:39 ◼   ► I wanna get a vibe check from you both

01:20:41 ◼   ► on the translucent metaray bands.

01:20:45 ◼   ► - Uh-huh, amazing.

01:20:47 ◼   ► - What do you think about them?

01:20:48 ◼   ► - Incredible.

01:20:49 ◼   ► - Yeah, so good.

01:20:52 ◼   ► - Here's the question I have.

01:20:53 ◼   ► I also love the way they look,

01:20:54 ◼   ► but isn't, it's like this weird thing where like,

01:20:56 ◼   ► isn't the good thing about them

01:20:58 ◼   ► is they don't look like computer glasses?

01:21:00 ◼   ► - Yeah, you gotta know how to pull it off

01:21:03 ◼   ► because like, I don't, yeah, I see what you mean.

01:21:07 ◼   ► They are more in your face than, yeah, yeah.

01:21:12 ◼   ► - It's like, they look really cool,

01:21:14 ◼   ► but what I like about my Ray-Bans is I,

01:21:17 ◼   ► they don't look like I'm wearing computer glasses.

01:21:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, you gotta pull off the sort of vibe

01:21:22 ◼   ► that maybe we don't have.

01:21:24 ◼   ► Like you gotta, you gotta, you gotta have the sort of like--

01:21:26 ◼   ► - Cyberpunk.

01:21:27 ◼   ► - Yeah, cyberpunk or like, oh, I'm,

01:21:30 ◼   ► like, oh, or that other people sort of know you

01:21:33 ◼   ► as a tech mogul, maybe like, oh, he's a tech mogul, you know.

01:21:37 ◼   ► - Do you not think people know you as a tech mogul?

01:21:40 ◼   ► - No, no, no, I don't think they do.

01:21:42 ◼   ► - Stephen, are you gonna get these glasses at any point?

01:21:45 ◼   ► We both have them, right?

01:21:46 ◼   ► As Federico wears them all day,

01:21:48 ◼   ► which I think is incredible.

01:21:49 ◼   ► - All day, all day.

01:21:50 ◼   ► - I wear them as my sunglasses just 'cause like,

01:21:52 ◼   ► that's not the style of like eyeglasses I want,

01:21:55 ◼   ► but do you have any interest

01:21:57 ◼   ► in a pair of these sunglasses, old glasses?

01:22:00 ◼   ► - I mean, kind of, but I don't,

01:22:02 ◼   ► I don't see myself jumping in, to be honest.

01:22:04 ◼   ► I think I know myself well enough

01:22:06 ◼   ► that I would have them and play with them

01:22:08 ◼   ► for a couple of weeks and they would sit on the shelf.

01:22:11 ◼   ► - But they're just your sunglasses.

01:22:13 ◼   ► - Yeah, but you got, you know.

01:22:15 ◼   ► - Because like you don't have to do anything with them,

01:22:17 ◼   ► but then when you wanna take a picture, you can.

01:22:19 ◼   ► - It's true, I don't know, maybe, maybe.

01:22:21 ◼   ► If the translucent ones only come in the smaller size

01:22:26 ◼   ► and I have a basketball head,

01:22:27 ◼   ► if they were in the larger size,

01:22:29 ◼   ► I may have put the trigger on those.

01:22:31 ◼   ► - I think they have a couple of sizes.

01:22:32 ◼   ► I think Neil Apatow was wrong,

01:22:34 ◼   ► or was like talking mad at us about that.

01:22:36 ◼   ► But also the translucent ones are like twice the price.

01:22:40 ◼   ► - Oh no.

01:22:41 ◼   ► - They're like, they're way more expensive.

01:22:43 ◼   ► - Get the regular ones.

01:22:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, and they have a bunch of colors and stuff.

01:22:47 ◼   ► Like, and they have, they have like,

01:22:49 ◼   ► I think there's a semi-translucent one anyway.

01:22:52 ◼   ► Like they, but then they made like a new,

01:22:54 ◼   ► another pair that does this thing.

01:22:56 ◼   ► They're cool, man.

01:22:57 ◼   ► Like seriously, like they're good.

01:22:59 ◼   ► It's a good product.

01:23:01 ◼   ► - Yeah, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe.

01:23:05 ◼   ► I don't think my wife would like them.

01:23:07 ◼   ► I think she'd be freaked out by the camera thing.

01:23:10 ◼   ► - But just don't tell her.

01:23:11 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:23:13 ◼   ► - Just don't tell her.

01:23:14 ◼   ► - Don't tell her, yeah.

01:23:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, no, I don't think Mary would dig that.

01:23:17 ◼   ► What was the thing that she didn't,

01:23:19 ◼   ► oh, she didn't like the Vision Pro, right?

01:23:20 ◼   ► - She does not like the Vision Pro at all.

01:23:22 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah.

01:23:23 ◼   ► - She doesn't like that she can't see my eyes

01:23:25 ◼   ► and she doesn't like the creepy eyes on the outside or.

01:23:28 ◼   ► - I don't know, I don't know about,

01:23:29 ◼   ► I don't know about Adina, but so Mary, Sylvia,

01:23:33 ◼   ► Jennifer for John, none of them liked the Vision Pro.

01:23:38 ◼   ► So what's up?

01:23:39 ◼   ► - Adina doesn't care.

01:23:40 ◼   ► Like it just, this kind of stuff doesn't bother her.

01:23:42 ◼   ► Oh, I mean, also I never wear it around her anymore, right?

01:23:45 ◼   ► It's at my office.

01:23:47 ◼   ► But when I was wearing it at first,

01:23:49 ◼   ► like she was with me when I got it.

01:23:50 ◼   ► Like these kinds of things, she doesn't see it.

01:23:54 ◼   ► She doesn't at least communicate to me a particular dis,

01:23:57 ◼   ► well, she didn't about this.

01:23:59 ◼   ► When there's things she doesn't like about technology,

01:24:01 ◼   ► I hear about it.

01:24:02 ◼   ► This one, she didn't really have that kind of,

01:24:05 ◼   ► that kind of visceral reaction.

01:24:07 ◼   ► - You just got to ask her point blank.

01:24:09 ◼   ► Like, do you think I look dumb when I wear the Vision Pro?

01:24:11 ◼   ► - Oh, I mean, she'll tell me that, yes.

01:24:13 ◼   ► But like, I get the sense that Mary, Sylvia and Jennifer

01:24:18 ◼   ► offered that information without prompting.

01:24:21 ◼   ► - Oh, absolutely.

01:24:22 ◼   ► - Yep, yep, yep.

01:24:23 ◼   ► - That didn't happen to me specifically.

01:24:25 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:24:27 ◼   ► - Okay, all right, I may look at these.

01:24:29 ◼   ► I may give these a shot.

01:24:30 ◼   ► - You should try it.

01:24:31 ◼   ► - They're just cameras, right?

01:24:32 ◼   ► And calls and like audio stuff.

01:24:34 ◼   ► - And speakers.

01:24:35 ◼   ► - Cameras and calls.

01:24:36 ◼   ► - They are great for calls and they're great

01:24:38 ◼   ► for like listening to a podcast instead of...

01:24:41 ◼   ► As a person who wears one AirPod, Steven,

01:24:44 ◼   ► you're really going to like them.

01:24:45 ◼   ► - These are perfect for your walks.

01:24:47 ◼   ► - Yes, yes.

01:24:49 ◼   ► That's what I use them. - Absolutely perfect.

01:24:51 ◼   ► What I wish they did, and I think they will do this.

01:24:53 ◼   ► I wish they were one conduction and not speakers.

01:24:56 ◼   ► - Same.

01:24:57 ◼   ► - I hope that they do that at some point,

01:24:59 ◼   ► but like for you walking around your neighborhood,

01:25:02 ◼   ► this is absolutely perfect.

01:25:05 ◼   ► - Yeah, maybe so.

01:25:07 ◼   ► I'd get the transitions in that case then.

01:25:09 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, get the transitions, that's what I have.

01:25:12 ◼   ► The transitions are fantastic.

01:25:14 ◼   ► Case is super good.

01:25:15 ◼   ► It is a very good product.

01:25:19 ◼   ► It is like a debut of the year kind of product, right?

01:25:22 ◼   ► In that way of like, they did this thing

01:25:24 ◼   ► and they just, every part of it is executed perfectly.

01:25:27 ◼   ► - Yup.

01:25:28 ◼   ► - Okay, I got the page open.

01:25:30 ◼   ► Y'all may have talked me into a purchase.

01:25:33 ◼   ► - Do it.

01:25:34 ◼   ► Your glasses that you wear, your sunglasses,

01:25:36 ◼   ► look like, they have this way, they are a Wayfarer style.

01:25:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, they are.

01:25:40 ◼   ► - Sunglasses, so you will enjoy this.

01:25:45 ◼   ► - I'll report back.

01:25:47 ◼   ► - Yeah, go buy 'em and then report back to us later

01:25:50 ◼   ► because...

01:25:52 ◼   ► - In a month.

01:25:53 ◼   ► - I'm taking a month off.

01:25:55 ◼   ► - Bye.

01:25:56 ◼   ► - Bye, Stephen.

01:25:57 ◼   ► - Bye, Stephen. - Thank you.

01:25:59 ◼   ► - Yeah, taking a month off.

01:26:01 ◼   ► Y'all have both been very kind.

01:26:03 ◼   ► All my other coworkers have been very kind

01:26:04 ◼   ► of letting me do this.

01:26:05 ◼   ► Nothing bad is going on.

01:26:07 ◼   ► I just would like a break.

01:26:08 ◼   ► - Please mention that again

01:26:09 ◼   ► because I think the default expectation

01:26:11 ◼   ► is that something's going on, nothing is going on.

01:26:13 ◼   ► - Nothing is going on.

01:26:14 ◼   ► I put this in the blog post.

01:26:15 ◼   ► No one is sick.

01:26:18 ◼   ► There's no secret plot to like take over Relay

01:26:21 ◼   ► while I'm gone.

01:26:22 ◼   ► - How would you do that while you're gone?

01:26:24 ◼   ► That's what I wanna know.

01:26:25 ◼   ► - No, like take it against me.

01:26:26 ◼   ► Like you've pushed me to sabbatical

01:26:28 ◼   ► and then I come back and John owns my half of the company.

01:26:31 ◼   ► - You don't know.

01:26:33 ◼   ► You're a goat.

01:26:34 ◼   ► I didn't tell you to take it,

01:26:34 ◼   ► but maybe a plot has formed.

01:26:36 ◼   ► - No, but also from me's perspective though,

01:26:39 ◼   ► a month off would mean that it will have a lot of time

01:26:43 ◼   ► to hang out, I don't know, at the bank or with lawyers.

01:26:46 ◼   ► - That's also true, that is also true.

01:26:49 ◼   ► - Taking over.

01:26:50 ◼   ► - There are two plots.

01:26:52 ◼   ► There are no plots now,

01:26:53 ◼   ► but maybe there will be two plots coming up.

01:26:57 ◼   ► - But no, the two of you and David Sparks and Underscore

01:27:00 ◼   ► and everybody have all been very supportive of this.

01:27:03 ◼   ► It's just, it's time for a break.

01:27:06 ◼   ► So I'm gonna be gone starting Friday.

01:27:09 ◼   ► I'll be back in early November.

01:27:11 ◼   ► This is not in the blog post, but I'll say it here.

01:27:13 ◼   ► Next week, I have to call in to report

01:27:15 ◼   ► for jury duty selection.

01:27:17 ◼   ► If I end up being put on a jury doing my sabbatical,

01:27:21 ◼   ► my sabbatical will last longer,

01:27:22 ◼   ► 'cause that is not a vacation,

01:27:24 ◼   ► but that's what I'm gonna be for a few weeks.

01:27:27 ◼   ► - It's a vacation, but it's not one anyone wants to do.

01:27:29 ◼   ► - It's not the one I have planned.

01:27:31 ◼   ► - I love jury duty as a concept.

01:27:34 ◼   ► I would take it so seriously if it were a thing here.

01:27:38 ◼   ► Like I would absolutely like-

01:27:39 ◼   ► - This is why you would never be selected.

01:27:42 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah.

01:27:43 ◼   ► - You wouldn't pass the-

01:27:45 ◼   ► - You're like the meme with the maps on the wall

01:27:48 ◼   ► and the red string, like, "No, we did it."

01:27:50 ◼   ► - Yeah, they'll be like,

01:27:51 ◼   ► "Oh, he's gonna enjoy this too much."

01:27:53 ◼   ► - Can we, while you're gone,

01:27:57 ◼   ► as a celebration of you being gone,

01:28:01 ◼   ► can we change the music of "Connected" to hit song

01:28:06 ◼   ► by American singer Kelly Clarkson, "Since You Been Gone"?