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Connected

514: Rusty on the Inside

 

00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:07   Hello and welcome to Connected.

00:00:10   Episode 514.

00:00:12   That's an intro.

00:00:13   This episode is brought to you by Ecamm and Squarespace

00:00:17   and 1Password extended access management and ZOJO.

00:00:21   I am annual chairman Mike who doesn't remember how to introduce the show

00:00:25   and I am joined by Federico Medici.

00:00:29   Hi Federico.

00:00:30   I'll have what you're having today.

00:00:32   Yes, hi.

00:00:33   You good over there buddy?

00:00:36   I'm really tired.

00:00:37   I have my sleep plus plus score today was zero.

00:00:40   Oh no.

00:00:41   Is that even possible?

00:00:42   Yeah.

00:00:43   It is.

00:00:44   It's not good.

00:00:45   It's not good and I recorded a one hour 20 minute podcast.

00:00:51   Then I had five minutes and I started this show.

00:00:53   So like that's where I am.

00:00:55   You know I'm with a zero score.

00:00:57   Oh man.

00:00:58   I'm already like into it you know.

00:01:00   Mine was 69.

00:01:02   Nice.

00:01:03   Just right there.

00:01:05   Nice.

00:01:06   Nice.

00:01:07   You slept well.

00:01:09   Yeah.

00:01:10   It was a pretty nice rest.

00:01:12   You're so happy with that sleep score Steven.

00:01:14   You're even jumping ahead of your introduction.

00:01:16   We're also joined by Mr. Steven Hackett or I'm sorry, keynote chairman Steven Hackett.

00:01:20   Hello.

00:01:21   Hello Steven.

00:01:22   Greetings.

00:01:23   Big 69 boy.

00:01:24   I'm so happy to be here.

00:01:25   I'm so happy to be here.

00:01:26   I'm so happy to be here.

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00:03:37   The last time you did this, you bought Every Color of iMac.

00:03:40   And I am worried where you're trending towards.

00:03:44   That was 13 computers.

00:03:46   And a lot of those were donated.

00:03:48   Are you somehow convinced that there's going to be a museum

00:03:52   that's going to want the performers?

00:03:54   Because that's not going to happen.

00:03:56   No, the museum wants the performers.

00:03:57   But there's also like 48 of them, 50 of them, something.

00:04:02   So that's impossible.

00:04:05   Okay, because the way you're saying that, it sounds like,

00:04:08   well, there's only 48 of them.

00:04:11   Like it really depends on the tone you're using to say that.

00:04:14   And it sounded like you were saying,

00:04:15   well, there's only 48 of them.

00:04:20   That's how you sound.

00:04:23   There is also just something incredibly funny

00:04:25   about buying a computer called Money.

00:04:30   It's ridiculous.

00:04:31   It's a ridiculous computer.

00:04:33   Are you enjoying performer month?

00:04:34   I am.

00:04:36   And more importantly, the people are enjoying performer month.

00:04:39   Is the traffic still through the roof?

00:04:40   Are you still on that upward trajectory?

00:04:42   The death threats have stopped, which is good.

00:04:44   Oh, that's good.

00:04:45   That's always good.

00:04:47   That's really when a project turns the corner.

00:04:49   Yeah, traffic's been good.

00:04:51   Traffic's good.

00:04:53   Traffic's been good.

00:04:54   Traffic is good.

00:04:56   You love it.

00:04:57   You love to see it.

00:04:58   Love to see it.

00:04:59   Yeah, I think I've got maybe three articles left to right.

00:05:04   And I'm working on one super long one.

00:05:08   I'm going to try to finish that today or tomorrow.

00:05:10   So yeah, it's coming along.

00:05:12   Join the party.

00:05:14   512pixels.net/ I don't know.

00:05:17   It's just on the homepage all the time now.

00:05:19   / what?

00:05:21   /project/performa-month.

00:05:25   Are you being serious?

00:05:27   Yeah, I have a performer month page.

00:05:28   You don't have a better domain?

00:05:29   What is your...

00:05:30   Why don't you like domains?

00:05:31   We have this problem all the time where I'm like,

00:05:33   getconnectedpro.co and you're like,

00:05:35   relay.fm/connected/join.

00:05:39   The problem with your vanity URLs is that

00:05:44   they don't work over HTTPS.

00:05:47   If you as a human being type https:// before you type a URL,

00:05:53   I don't want you coming to my website.

00:05:55   getconnectedpro.co

00:05:57   I love it.

00:05:58   They work if you just type them.

00:06:00   It's only if you type https:// then...

00:06:04   I don't think it always works.

00:06:06   It always works.

00:06:07   It always works.

00:06:08   Bulletproof as you think it is.

00:06:09   I love it.

00:06:10   This is what you typically talk about on iMessage?

00:06:12   Yes.

00:06:13   Always works.

00:06:14   It works 100% of the time unless you are a sicko

00:06:17   who types in https://.

00:06:20   I'm going to hover.

00:06:21   I'll buy a vanity URL for performer month.

00:06:24   Let's see.

00:06:25   Performermonth.com.

00:06:27   It's got to be available.

00:06:28   Performermonth.

00:06:29   It's got to be.

00:06:30   Literally nobody.

00:06:31   Hang on.

00:06:32   I'm logged into like literally a friend's hover account.

00:06:33   Let me fix that.

00:06:34   No, buy it on their account.

00:06:35   Buy it on their account.

00:06:36   Do it.

00:06:37   What are you doing?

00:06:38   Do it.

00:06:39   It's like the opposite of when I buy domains

00:06:40   that the two of you should have.

00:06:42   It's like you're buying a domain for you

00:06:45   on someone else's account.

00:06:47   It's perfect.

00:06:48   Performermonth.com, $17.

00:06:50   I mean, look.

00:06:51   This sells itself.

00:06:53   What if I just do Performer?

00:06:55   What if I get it a month?

00:06:57   I can't believe that we've been doing this show for--

00:06:59   You could buy Performer.net for $2,865.

00:07:02   That's not--

00:07:03   Performer.blog.

00:07:04   We've been doing this show for 10 years

00:07:05   and we're still buying domains live

00:07:07   while we're doing the show.

00:07:08   Yeah.

00:07:09   That is the mark of a successful podcast

00:07:11   when you start buying domains.

00:07:12   Or a relationship even.

00:07:14   I mean, you know, you still have the fire and the spice.

00:07:17   Performer.space.

00:07:18   The spice for domains.

00:07:19   Performer.blog.

00:07:20   But that's not what you want.

00:07:21   Nope.

00:07:22   Performer.com.

00:07:23   Oh, guys.

00:07:24   No, no.

00:07:25   Guys, guys.

00:07:26   Okay.

00:07:27   Well, okay.

00:07:28   Performer.com.

00:07:29   Do it, do it, do it.

00:07:30   Decentralized physical infrastructure network.

00:07:32   It is a secure plus.

00:07:34   Where is hashing and computer power

00:07:36   and theirs infrastructure meets the compound

00:07:38   and non-ordinal's jobs.

00:07:40   Still foolish, still hungry, still jobs.

00:07:42   Performer.com from EM square D team.

00:07:47   So they know what they're doing.

00:07:49   Still foolish, still hungry, still jobs.

00:07:51   They're winking right at the camera.

00:07:53   Yeah.

00:07:54   This is like when a coin was created called Cortex.

00:08:02   This is like a thing that happened in my life

00:08:05   that created a lot of SEO issues.

00:08:07   Like a Bitcoin situation?

00:08:09   Yeah.

00:08:10   Yeah.

00:08:11   Like a crypto thing.

00:08:12   Yeah, there's a Bitcoin.

00:08:13   There's a Bitcoin.

00:08:15   There is often lost people who find themselves

00:08:18   to the Cortex podcast.

00:08:20   Looking for Bitcoin tips and they don't get them.

00:08:23   You should get performer.blog.

00:08:26   That's what you should get.

00:08:28   Well, I'm in the checkout now for perform a month.com,

00:08:32   but maybe that's too long.

00:08:33   Oh, you should buy performer.blog.

00:08:35   That's what you should buy.

00:08:36   I'm going to back out of this.

00:08:37   It's on sale for $4.99.

00:08:38   That's good.

00:08:39   And I'm not going to renew it, so.

00:08:41   Wait, there's not going to be performer month every year?

00:08:45   Oh, man, it's one and done, baby.

00:08:47   So this is going to be like the one month

00:08:50   in the arc of human history when this ever happened?

00:08:54   Yeah.

00:08:55   Damn, that's sad.

00:08:58   I can't take.

00:08:59   That?

00:09:00   Oh, man, that hit me hard.

00:09:02   Like this month and then it's done?

00:09:04   That's how life is, man.

00:09:06   It's a vapor.

00:09:07   I don't like it.

00:09:08   We're here one day.

00:09:09   I don't like it.

00:09:10   Next day we're gone.

00:09:11   Mm-mm.

00:09:12   iOS 18.1 Beta 2 is available now and it rolls in the 18.0 Beta 5 changes that we spoke about.

00:09:22   So like photos app changing and stuff like that.

00:09:24   And it gets the Thanos mode in Safari.

00:09:27   I don't understand how, but Federico has been able to try Apple Intelligence now.

00:09:32   Yeah, yeah.

00:09:33   Now it just works via the basic method of setting your language and region to English United States.

00:09:40   They got rid of the like very system, like very deep system level stuff, region check.

00:09:50   I mean.

00:09:51   Do you think that was intentional?

00:09:53   Yes, because I mean you must want as many users as possible trying this now.

00:10:00   And as long as you say, well, your region is United States.

00:10:09   The language is English.

00:10:11   You know, we don't know where people go with their devices.

00:10:14   I mean, is it going to be legal in September?

00:10:16   Who knows?

00:10:17   But for now I have been able to try Apple Intelligence.

00:10:20   I put back 18.1 on my iPhone and on the iPad.

00:10:26   It's, I would say there's a couple of nice things, but it's mostly underwhelming.

00:10:32   So this is like the notes that I've been saving for the past couple of days.

00:10:36   I can very much confirm that I don't think I'm ever going to use writing tools.

00:10:43   I appreciate how it's a sort of feature that's been built system wide everywhere, even though it kind of works.

00:10:49   It's a little bit janky in apps like Obsidian.

00:10:52   When you try to do the proofreading in Obsidian and it tells you that you got to change the whole document.

00:10:58   I don't think it must be.

00:11:00   I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if it's like an Obsidian bug because they're doing some weird things with their cross-platform engine or whatever.

00:11:09   I doubt Obsidian is using the pure stock text engine.

00:11:13   Yeah, exactly.

00:11:14   I can't imagine that they're doing that.

00:11:16   It's running Android on iOS somehow.

00:11:19   But no, more like sort of high level conceptually speaking.

00:11:26   I don't think I'm ever going to use writing tools because writing is my job.

00:11:31   And I just prefer to have a human editor looking at my stuff or just me coming up with words.

00:11:39   So I don't think I'm the target user for writing tools at all.

00:11:43   I kind of like the summaries for notifications, for messages like in mail.

00:11:52   You know how it summarizes the body of an email and you can see the summary in the main inbox.

00:11:58   That's been convenient.

00:11:59   Something that they've added in Beta 2 in mail is, you know when you open an email you have the summarize button?

00:12:08   Yeah.

00:12:09   For newsletters now, it pops up like a pop-up that says summarize is not intended for this type of content.

00:12:18   Would you still like to use it?

00:12:20   And you say yes.

00:12:21   I don't know why they've done that.

00:12:23   I don't know why they've done that, but they've done that.

00:12:26   Interesting.

00:12:27   I hadn't noticed that.

00:12:29   Yeah, I think so far the summarization has been my favorite feature.

00:12:37   Like today, for example, I got a couple of texts from John.

00:12:40   By the way, I was just able to summarize a newsletter.

00:12:43   So that seems to be kind of hit or miss.

00:12:46   Yeah, interesting.

00:12:48   I liked seeing the summaries for John.

00:12:52   Like John sent me like a couple long messages and I got a summary on the lock screen.

00:12:56   That was cool.

00:12:57   I think so far my favorite feature of all is Type 2 Siri with a big asterisk, which is Siri still dumb as ever.

00:13:10   I don't think if you ask me without even looking, like don't look at the screen, just judge Siri by its responses.

00:13:20   I wouldn't have been able to tell you that this is a smarter Siri powered by AI.

00:13:25   Because I don't think it is, right?

00:13:27   This version isn't anything except like you can stumble over your words.

00:13:32   Like there's nothing.

00:13:34   It's not me, right?

00:13:35   They've only changed the look of it, but it doesn't seem to be any smarter than before, especially at keeping context between multiple requests.

00:13:48   Yeah, that stuff's just not in the beta yet.

00:13:51   Yeah, maybe it's just not there.

00:13:53   Likewise, it's supposed to know a lot about your devices, like XP was supposed to do on Samsung phones.

00:13:59   Also not in the betas.

00:14:01   Well, I believe that this version is what it is supposed to do is you can restate yourself, right?

00:14:11   And you should understand.

00:14:12   So you could say like, what's the weather on Wednesday?

00:14:14   No, I mean Thursday.

00:14:15   That works.

00:14:16   Understand that.

00:14:17   It's also supposed to, you're supposed to be able to say like, you know, me and Jason both had the same example.

00:14:24   Where is Steven?

00:14:25   He tells me where Steven is.

00:14:26   What's the weather like?

00:14:27   It should understand that, but it's from all of my testing, it is not understanding that.

00:14:31   But this version currently should be able to do that.

00:14:35   But things like personal context and like Steven was saying and the app control, none of that is in here yet.

00:14:41   No, it's not even coming this year.

00:14:43   Yeah, and I just go back to what I've said before.

00:14:46   They should not change the Siri UI until they have all those features.

00:14:50   That said, I do like TypeToSiri because I, there's a couple of things that I really like using Siri for.

00:14:59   That is like checking my schedule, creating reminders, you know, that sort of playing music.

00:15:04   And with TypeToSiri, I get to save time because typically like I would use Siri, but what if it's like 1 a.m. or 2 a.m. and Sylvia is sleeping.

00:15:14   And so I want to save time with interactions on my phone, but I can't speak because there's a person next to me sleeping.

00:15:21   So I've created, this is sort of my teaching hack for you today, I've created some text expansions for like common syntax that I use Siri for.

00:15:33   So for example, and you can do this like in settings, general, keyboard, text replacements.

00:15:39   I created one that is like the letter RRR, so I just need to type the R key on my keyboard three times.

00:15:48   And it expands into RemindMeTo, so like I can quickly create a reminder with TypeToSiri just by doing that.

00:15:55   Or like I created SSS, same ideal, it expands into ShowMeMyScheduleToday.

00:16:04   So things like this I think are really convenient with Siri, especially if you create like this little sort of macros with text replacements.

00:16:12   That's something that I think I'm going to use a lot.

00:16:16   Otherwise, I mean so far, except writing tools, there's no image playground, not that I'm ever going to use it.

00:16:23   There's no custom emoji. It's just writing tools, Siri UI, TypeToSiri, and summaries in notifications and mail.

00:16:32   So mostly underwhelming, and I think we're obviously going to talk about Google in a few minutes.

00:16:40   Yeah, it's obviously very early, and they are, compared to other tech companies, I think it's pretty clear that they are very much behind.

00:16:51   Something I find so funny, when you're using iMessage and someone sends you a message and the system wants to recommend my response.

00:17:03   Oh yeah.

00:17:04   They're terrible, 100% of the time. They don't sound like me at all, and most of the time are things that I would never say.

00:17:11   And like I'm convinced that there is nothing new going on in that system.

00:17:15   It's the same quick type system that there's always been, but now they just make it look fancy because they're trying to find stuff to put in the system to be like, "Hey, it's AI!"

00:17:23   It's AI.

00:17:24   But it doesn't feel like that has gotten literally any better.

00:17:28   For example, something with me and my mum, every single day, my mum asks me multiple times because she's, I love my mum, but this is just how she is.

00:17:36   She's like, "How are you? How are you?" She'll just send me this multiple times a day.

00:17:39   And pretty much all the time, I'll say like, "Yeah, everything's good. How are you?"

00:17:43   So this is, essentially I answer the same way every day.

00:17:47   Every time I get that message from my mum, it gives an answer that is not the answer that I use.

00:17:53   Now I feel like the computer should have an idea about what's going on here, and it never does.

00:17:59   And so, yeah, I just find it to be very strange.

00:18:05   One thing that is in the beta that I think is pretty cool is the photo memory stuff, so you can have it build a custom memory within photos.

00:18:15   And that's actually pretty sweet.

00:18:18   Sunday's MPU, which is not out now, but it will be out in a couple of days, we talk, the whole episode is about Apple Intelligence, and we talk to a good bit about that.

00:18:26   But in short, you can have it, you basically prompt it to put a memory together, and it takes a minute, but it puts something together for you.

00:18:34   And it's nice because the previous versions of this feature were kind of limited in what it would consider memory-worthy.

00:18:44   And now you can just make your own. And so, it's buried in there, but it's a nice addition.

00:18:50   Yeah, I agree.

00:18:52   This episode of Connected is brought to you by Ecamm.

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00:20:54   Mike, we talked about Apple Watches for kids, and we heard from some people, right? What did those people say?

00:21:01   So I have two pieces of follow up that I thought were interesting. They're coming from different sides of the experience.

00:21:08   So an anonymous user wrote in and said, "I'm 14 years old, and I've had a cellular Apple Watch for three years.

00:21:14   It does almost everything I want it to, contacting parents, looking things up, playing podcasts, and more.

00:21:21   The only things that it can't do are play games, take photos, and listen to Spotify, though I believe you can probably use Apple Music.

00:21:28   I don't feel like I'm missing out on too much that is important, nor do I feel the pressure to get a real phone."

00:21:33   So I really like this. I also felt bad about myself because this 14-year-old feels better adjusted than me.

00:21:40   I also feel bad because this 14-year-old is listening to us, like in general.

00:21:45   No, that's just good for them. This is good for their development, I'm sure.

00:21:49   Is it? Okay.

00:21:51   Yeah, we're helping the youth.

00:21:54   We are? Okay.

00:21:55   We're leading the next generation over here, yeah.

00:21:57   Okay, that's good. That's good for us.

00:21:59   I mean, we have been doing this for long enough now that we are starting to get those comments, right?

00:22:02   I know we spoke about this after WWDC, well, for me, like 23 or whatever.

00:22:09   And I think, Steven, you had it then and had it in 24 as well, where people were like, "Hey, I've been listening to you since high school."

00:22:15   Oh.

00:22:16   This person, this 14-year-old person was three when we started podcasting together.

00:22:21   Yeah.

00:22:22   Three.

00:22:23   So, you know. We're raising them right, is what I'm saying.

00:22:26   Yeah, I mean, really, if humanity survives the next 150 years, it's because of us.

00:22:31   Why did we never consider starting a cult?

00:22:37   Or a family together.

00:22:38   You know.

00:22:39   You know.

00:22:40   We could have. That's a great question.

00:22:44   We could have gone into so many more lucrative businesses instead of doing podcasts.

00:22:51   We can be persuasive, you know. People like us.

00:22:54   Yeah, like high-level marketing schemes.

00:22:56   Yeah. I mean.

00:22:58   Anyway, Eric said, "We had a quote set up for Child Apple Watch for my son when he was in fourth and fifth grade, which is 10 to 11 years old.

00:23:08   It was great because he had a way to contact us and we had a way to contact him and it wasn't with a phone.

00:23:15   The contacts were locked down and the school time limitations worked well.

00:23:19   We would even use the walkie-talkie feature when we were on family trips.

00:23:22   We never had any issues setting up from a different phone.

00:23:26   I really recommend it for parents that want cellular connectivity.

00:23:29   I think these just sound really positive and to me, I know this is an incredibly small sample size, but like this feels like a good solution for a young person to have a level of connection and to be able to use some things that they care about without necessarily getting themselves lost on an iPhone.

00:23:49   If they don't want to lose themselves on an iPhone, you don't want that for them.

00:23:52   So, I thought this was good feedback. I was happy to get it.

00:23:55   The walkie-talkie is one of the best Apple Watch features that nobody uses.

00:24:00   Or when I say nobody, I mean it should be so much more popular.

00:24:04   There should be an iPhone version of it.

00:24:06   And I know that it sounds funny because a bunch of people are like, "Oh, that walkie-talkie is silly."

00:24:12   I think it's actually a very good feature and it should be like, I would have liked to see Apple invest so much more in it.

00:24:19   Like have an iPhone version, have it be like a real multi-platform feature across the entire Apple ecosystem.

00:24:28   And it's just on the Apple Watch and so few people know about it. It's a shame.

00:24:32   I just opened my walkie-talkie app on my Apple Watch and I have friends you've invited.

00:24:39   And there are three people who I invited that did not accept my request to be a walkie-talkie friend.

00:24:46   One is Federico, one is Steven, and one is OTJ.

00:24:51   Yeah, you probably did it during one of the podcasts to prove a point and we said no.

00:24:59   This is like when you open Find My Friends and then Federico can see your location.

00:25:05   This thing that you guys are doing is bordering on creepy.

00:25:11   Yes, that you see each other's location. No. Why do you need to see if I'm at the supermarket or I'm at home?

00:25:19   I don't need to, but I just like to feel connected to you.

00:25:22   That sounds like a guy who's going out committing crimes at night.

00:25:25   Exactly. Here's a question. Why don't you want me to know where you are? You know what I mean?

00:25:31   Well, I don't know because it's a slippery slope. Today it's checking my location.

00:25:37   Tomorrow it's like, "Hey, Tichi, can I sleep with you in your bed?"

00:25:41   I mean, that seems like a pretty great progression if you ask me.

00:25:44   But here's the thing that I feel would define my thing.

00:25:47   That's how slope works.

00:25:49   My thing with define my is I have no problem having find my with a bunch of friends.

00:25:55   But at the point when someone gets weird, I would remove them.

00:25:59   Yeah.

00:26:00   You know, it's like you overstepped.

00:26:02   But I think it's fine. But I also will say I respect that you don't want it.

00:26:08   But hey, you have the ability, Federico, whenever you want to see where I am.

00:26:11   And I'm happy for you to have that information about me.

00:26:13   I never do because I feel bad checking.

00:26:16   But I don't want to.

00:26:17   I just want you to know you have the opportunity to do it.

00:26:19   I don't want to.

00:26:20   If you want to see where I am, just open find my and you can see where I am.

00:26:23   No, thank you, but I never do. I actually never do.

00:26:28   But you can. I just want you to know that you can see where I am if whenever you want.

00:26:34   You guys want to know where John is? John Voorhees is right now?

00:26:37   Yeah. Tell me where John is right now.

00:26:39   I will say if I'm at home and John is at home, we're 512 miles apart.

00:26:44   That's kind of nice.

00:26:46   I bet you like that, don't you?

00:26:47   On brand.

00:26:48   Yeah. For John.

00:26:50   Wow. There's a lot of pizza places near John.

00:26:52   What's going on over there?

00:26:54   I was like scrolling around his neighborhood.

00:26:55   Hey, John. Hey, John. Go get us a pizza.

00:26:57   Happy Anniversaries, everybody.

00:27:04   It's the week.

00:27:06   Happy anniversary.

00:27:07   It's the week of anniversaries.

00:27:08   August 11th, 2014. Mike and I published a letter announcing this here very podcast network.

00:27:16   And that's on 512 pixels now for everybody to read.

00:27:21   On August 12th, 2020, Green Gate was fixed and iOS 13.6.1.

00:27:26   Why do you always find a way?

00:27:28   If this was the case, then why have we still heard about it for four years?

00:27:32   Well, Apple says they fixed it.

00:27:34   Ah, okay. So there's a conspiracy.

00:27:38   Always.

00:27:39   Why do you know this?

00:27:41   Because it's on my calendar every year.

00:27:42   My God.

00:27:43   Like my personal work calendar.

00:27:45   Some people just need to do more work, you know, rather than have things like this in their calendar.

00:27:50   Maybe.

00:27:51   And then that's why I couldn't be on the vision pro call the other day. I was celebrating Green Gate.

00:27:56   What's a busy cell?

00:27:58   I like to honor the holiday privately, as they say.

00:28:01   And then August 18th, 2014. So that'll be this weekend.

00:28:07   Ten years since we actually launched the network.

00:28:09   So we announced it a week in advance, launched it the next week.

00:28:12   Mike and I will be hosting a special episode of what is normally our members only podcast called Backstage.

00:28:19   But we are going to publish it in the departures feed for everybody.

00:28:24   It's a little tradition that we do kind of an annual Q&A.

00:28:27   And so look for that early next week.

00:28:29   Well, this is also Ten Years of Connected is on Sunday too.

00:28:33   Because we published the first episode of all of those shows on the same day.

00:28:36   Ten years of Connected.

00:28:38   I definitely remembered.

00:28:40   Yep. So that is, we're hitting that too.

00:28:44   Which is incredible to think about.

00:28:46   Do we feel like, have we learned anything in these past ten years?

00:28:52   Are we better people than when we started?

00:28:55   Are we worse people? Are we same people?

00:28:59   You know?

00:29:01   Do we feel like, have we made significant progress as human beings in these past decades?

00:29:07   I think so.

00:29:08   I think so.

00:29:09   Yeah?

00:29:10   Yeah.

00:29:11   I mean, we're not worse people, that's for sure.

00:29:13   No, I feel much more put together.

00:29:16   And I will just say that there's something kind of nice about it.

00:29:20   Ten year anniversary traditional gift is aluminum.

00:29:23   You know, we all like Apple's products, so everyone's getting a MacBook Air.

00:29:27   Nice. I look forward to it.

00:29:29   Not true.

00:29:30   You guys are getting performance. Sorry. That's all I got.

00:29:33   They're not made of aluminum.

00:29:34   No, they're not.

00:29:35   They're all made of just beige plastic.

00:29:38   I guess there's probably some aluminum inside.

00:29:41   A lot of it's stamped steel. They're pretty terrible.

00:29:44   It's probably made with iron inside.

00:29:47   It's rusty on the inside.

00:29:52   That beige polycarbonate or whatever plastic is made out of, it was really bad at rust.

00:29:58   It's just like the oxidization would just get in there.

00:30:01   What is that plastic? Do you know what it is? Like the plastic bodies of those machines?

00:30:06   I don't.

00:30:07   Like what is the actual plastic?

00:30:09   I'm not a plasticologist.

00:30:11   I expect a post before the end of performer month on what the plastic is.

00:30:15   Dr. Drang, come to Memphis. Help me test this stuff.

00:30:19   Someone's got to know.

00:30:20   I mean, aren't all plastics like some kind of polycarbonate or something?

00:30:25   Like isn't that the generic term for it?

00:30:28   Polycarbonate, I believe, is a type of plastic.

00:30:31   It is. It's like, okay, see? We can still learn new stuff after ten years.

00:30:36   I don't know. I'm just making this up.

00:30:39   I believe it is a type of, but I don't think it is the only thing that someone would consider plastic anyway.

00:30:46   I look forward to all the plastic follow up we're going to get.

00:30:49   But anyway, yeah.

00:30:50   It is weird. Like the ten year anniversary is like strange because we just did the whole thing a couple of weeks ago.

00:30:57   Which felt like the ten year anniversary in London, but it wasn't. It is actually this weekend.

00:31:03   So yeah, thank you to everybody who's listened to this podcast for ten years.

00:31:07   Even if you came in in the middle, we appreciate you and we'll do this for at least another ten years.

00:31:13   This episode of Connected is brought to you by Squarespace, the all-in-one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online.

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00:32:48   Our thanks to Squarespace for the support of connected and all of Relay.

00:32:54   So switching gears here, I wanted to talk about a specific category of app that I think is going to be popular over the upcoming year.

00:33:04   For sure, we have two examples now that are available in TestFlight.

00:33:09   I'm referring to the upcoming versions of the new version of Reader by Silvio Rizzi and Project Tapestry by The Icon Factory.

00:33:18   Now, we've covered both apps before.

00:33:22   The Icon Factory, if I'm not mistaken, did a crowdfunding campaign for Tapestry, which is now in TestFlight.

00:33:28   I believe they're also going to make a Mac version because they reached their crowdfunding milestone during the campaign.

00:33:36   Both apps are trying to solve a...

00:33:41   Well, here's the thing.

00:33:43   I don't know if they're trying to solve a problem or if they're coming up with a solution for a problem that we didn't know existed.

00:33:49   I don't even know if the problem exists in the first place, but they are coming up with an approach.

00:33:55   That's the thing. They're coming up with an approach.

00:33:57   And the idea is to unify web timelines from different services, from different content providers, into a single interface.

00:34:08   And this is something that's been on my mind for the past week or so, because first of all, I really wanted to finally try these apps.

00:34:15   I've been putting these off for the past few months, and I thought, well, it's about time that I actually try and set up both reader and Tapestry for myself and see what the deal is.

00:34:26   And in doing this, it all started because of an actual problem that I have that I want to discuss with you guys.

00:34:37   And then more broadly, I also want to talk about this concept.

00:34:40   So the problem that I had was that I realized, not by using screen time, but just by something that I realized myself,

00:34:51   that I am wasting way too much time in the official apps, and this is important, the official apps for Reddit and YouTube.

00:35:03   And that's because both apps, obviously, they're using the algorithmic homepage with content suggestions based on your taste, your patterns, your history, whatever.

00:35:16   They're getting their claws into you, basically.

00:35:19   Yeah, and they are very effective, to the point where it's kind of scary.

00:35:25   This is true for both YouTube and Reddit. Both are services that I use a lot, and I get a lot of value out of both Reddit and YouTube.

00:35:33   That's the thing. I don't feel bad about using Reddit and YouTube.

00:35:37   I have made some incredible connections on Reddit. I've discovered and learned a lot of things on Reddit, and I also spend a lot of time watching YouTube.

00:35:46   It's basically replaced regular television for me.

00:35:50   I pay for YouTube Premium. I get so much value out of it.

00:35:56   The problem is that, on balance, I also spend way too much time basically being distracted by the content suggestions on the homepage,

00:36:08   to the point where, over the past month especially, on multiple occasions, I've realized, after wasting an hour before going to bed,

00:36:16   instead of playing a video game, just mindlessly scrolling Reddit or YouTube and watching for two minutes and then moving on to the next thing,

00:36:25   so many times it has happened where I was like, "You know, I don't feel good about myself doing this."

00:36:32   And so I started thinking, "Is there a way for me to just go back to a feed of just my subscriptions?"

00:36:41   And maybe every once in a while, obviously I'm still going to use the official YouTube app for search, for occasionally checking out a new channel or whatever,

00:36:52   but is there a way where, on a daily basis, my regular usage is, "I just want to see what's new from my subscriptions,"

00:36:58   basically approaching Reddit and YouTube like I do with RSS?

00:37:04   Just give me a feed of new content from the people I follow, from the creators I follow.

00:37:11   And Kate in the chat is mentioning using app limits. That type of approach doesn't work with me.

00:37:19   Maybe it's a problem of intention. Maybe my will isn't strong enough.

00:37:28   I don't think app limits will do what you want, though, because it's not a time thing.

00:37:34   If you set yourself a 30-minute daily limit on YouTube, that's not going to solve the problem.

00:37:43   If you have a one-hour video from a creator that you like that you want to watch, you then can't watch that video.

00:37:49   It's not a time thing. It's an attention thing.

00:37:52   Yeah, it's an attention thing. And so I thought, "Well, maybe that could be a way for me to see if this idea of,

00:38:01   'Well, we're going to combine multiple timelines into one,' maybe that's a way that this is going to work for me,

00:38:07   where I can just see new content from my existing subscriptions instead of being recommended an ocean of things,

00:38:17   and only 20% of them have actual lasting value in my brain."

00:38:25   So I think Tapestry is very early in development. I think Reader is further along so far.

00:38:34   So that's what I set up. I set up Reader with Messenon, YouTube, RSS feeds, and Reddit.

00:38:42   I have a bunch of problems with this type of app, is what I've realized over the past few days.

00:38:49   Not with Reader specifically. I think my problem is with the idea.

00:38:55   It did what—well, it mostly did what I set out to accomplish, and that is,

00:39:02   "Sure, I can just see a bunch of YouTube channels and their videos, and I don't see anything else."

00:39:08   And it is convenient to be able to replace five icons on your home screen with just one icon.

00:39:16   The problem is that—and maybe this will get better with both apps by the final release, maybe it's very early.

00:39:24   I'm just saying that so far my experience has been that I've replaced five apps with one app that is not better at anything for those individual experiences.

00:39:36   For example, Messenon, yeah, I can scroll my timeline, and Reader keeps my position, and it's got the best iCloud position sync I've ever tried.

00:39:45   No joke. It's incredible. But I cannot do anything else. I cannot boost. I cannot like. I cannot reply.

00:39:54   It's just a read-only mode from my timeline, and that's not what I want from Messenon.

00:40:01   With RSS feeds, sure, I can scroll a list of feeds, but I don't have folders. I don't have all the other options I have in my main RSS Reader.

00:40:10   With Reddit, it works, but I don't have the sorting options that I get in the Reddit app that I also get in third-party Reddit apps.

00:40:18   Like, I tried Norwall again. I think—spoiler—I think that's one I'm going to set up again, Norwall version 2, instead of the official Reddit client.

00:40:28   But, like, my takeaway is that it's a good idea on paper to take timelines from multiple services, but the thing is those services are not just timelines.

00:40:41   They're also interactions. They're also, like, additional features on top of the post that you read in your homepage.

00:40:48   And you're taking just the basics of those services and you're combining them in a single view that is not necessarily better than the original service.

00:40:58   Does this make any sense, what I'm saying? Like, you're taking a bunch of things, but the experience on aggregate, like, it's not better than the original?

00:41:06   Yeah, I absolutely don't want any applications like this.

00:41:09   Like, I backed the Tapestry app to support the icon factory just because I appreciate them, but this is not an app type that I'm looking for.

00:41:19   Because all of these things—so let's just, for example, imagine, like, what are all the things I'd want to put in here?

00:41:26   It might be Reddit, it might be a couple of RSS feeds, be YouTube subscriptions, Mastodon, and threads.

00:41:34   They're all so different from each other.

00:41:36   It doesn't make any sense to me. Like, for me, of putting all of these things together.

00:41:41   Like, I'm looking at some Mastodon posts and here's a 45-minute YouTube video. Like, am I supposed to watch that now?

00:41:48   Like, it doesn't—this stuff, it doesn't match with—like, for me, I go to an app because I want to get the content that the app provides.

00:41:58   Like, I start at the app level and then go into the content that's there, not like, show me any possible medium of content and I will just consume that content.

00:42:07   Like, that doesn't make sense to me.

00:42:11   I think what you want is third-party applications for the services.

00:42:18   So, like, I was going to recommend NARWL to you.

00:42:21   Like, that was—when I was more of a Reddit user, that was the app that I used and I liked it specifically because you could turn off the front page.

00:42:30   Like, you just—I never saw the front page of Reddit. I only saw the subreddits that I cared about.

00:42:36   And I would assume, like, what about an app like—what is it, Play?

00:42:42   Yes, that's exactly what I put on my home screen.

00:42:47   Yeah, like, so then you can kind of maybe have more customization over YouTube.

00:42:52   Like, that feels like more of it for me.

00:42:54   Like, people that want these kinds of apps, great, but, like, I don't—this just doesn't make sense to me.

00:43:00   I wouldn't even want to see, really, like, I don't want to see my Mastodon posts or my Threads posts in the same app even.

00:43:07   Because to me, I treat them so differently.

00:43:10   Like, Threads and Mastodon are very different experiences for me.

00:43:14   Like, with Threads, it's algorithmic and I kind of want that.

00:43:19   Like, I find interesting things on Threads.

00:43:23   And Mastodon is where I'm actually keeping up with people and I want to read everything.

00:43:27   So, like, even they're different for me.

00:43:30   I feel like—and maybe, you know, six months from now, we'll do a follow-up and I'll say I was wrong.

00:43:38   I just needed to wait a little bit more for development on these apps to be further along.

00:43:43   But right now, it feels to me like—and I'm going to try to find the right words for what I'm about to say.

00:43:52   It feels like this idea, it all started with, "Oh, hey, Activity Pub is neat and we have interoperability between services."

00:44:03   And my impression is that starting from that foundation, it got a little out of hand to the point where, like,

00:44:10   "Well, why don't we also roll in YouTube and why don't we also roll in Reddit?"

00:44:15   Like, I think maybe going back to the original idea of just, "It's just Activity Pub,"

00:44:21   instead of, like, "Let's combine wildly different sources into one UI," you know?

00:44:29   I mean, you're literally combining a timeline-based thing like Mastodon or Activity Pub in general

00:44:34   with a community forum board-like experience such as Reddit with video playback.

00:44:42   That's YouTube. And I mean, we haven't even mentioned the fact that Reader also wants to do podcasts.

00:44:47   Like, it seems to me like, you know, you end up in a sort of situation with, like, the Homer Simpson car,

00:44:54   like, trying to do everything all at once and you don't necessarily excel at any of those individual things.

00:45:01   Yeah, it's this weird thing of, like, we're now in this decentralized world, so people want to make apps that are more centralized than ever.

00:45:08   Just super app. Here's the super app. Stephen, what do you think about these experiences or these things?

00:45:15   Yeah, I mean, Mike, I think I'm right in line with you. I just sort of struggle with apps that put very different types of content together.

00:45:23   And even seeing federated posts on Mastodon from Threads users, like, kind of strikes me as a bit weird.

00:45:32   And, you know, maybe that's just kind of an old way of thinking and, you know, maybe I need more time on it.

00:45:37   But these really just sort of hit me kind of weird. And it's not for lack of polish or, like, good ideas in these apps.

00:45:47   My issue is kind of category-wide, not even specific with these two. And I think especially when you're mixing in, it's one thing if it's all just words, right?

00:45:59   Like, if it's RSS and social media posts, like, all that together. But when you start mixing in videos and audio as well, that's really kind of when you lose me.

00:46:09   Yeah, it's like, I mean, obviously we make very specific types of podcasts by and large that are long form, right?

00:46:16   It's just a very strange thing for me to imagine somebody is in an app and they're reading Mastodon posts and then they see an episode of Connected and they're like, "Yeah, I'll play that now."

00:46:26   It just doesn't make sense to me, like, just because you can access all of this content. I'm not sure, you know, you should, like, what is it?

00:46:35   Just because you have all this power, like, doesn't mean you should use it, like, that kind of thing.

00:46:39   But, like, look, maybe I'm the problem here where, like, just because these are options that are available doesn't mean I shouldn't use them, you know what I mean?

00:46:48   Like, if I don't want to have YouTube videos in an app like this, just don't connect my YouTube account.

00:46:54   And, like, that is fine. But even different apps are the same type of media. Like, I'm just not sure that I want that.

00:47:04   I think I agree with you, Steven. Like, I'm not sure that I actually like having Threads posts in Mastodon.

00:47:10   I agree, actually.

00:47:12   Like, I'm happy that it's there for the people that want it because, like, why not? But I don't know, they just feel very different.

00:47:19   Yeah. And I have my Threads account federated, right? Because there are people who want to follow me on Mastodon and I post mostly different things on those two accounts.

00:47:28   A lot of cross-promotion with Perform a Month, but that only comes once in a lifetime, you know?

00:47:33   Everybody needs it. And sometimes it's good to get two posts for about unperform a month.

00:47:38   It's true. You might forget that that's happening.

00:47:42   Yeah, I feel like there is some benefit to the idea of, I just want to see my subscriptions.

00:47:53   But at the same time, the value that I lose, and I know it maybe sounds ridiculous, but the YouTube channels that I follow, on more than one occasion, for example, the comments can be useful.

00:48:09   Like, you know, maybe I'm checking out a walkthrough for how to install Linux on an ROG Ally, which is something that I did.

00:48:17   I was going to say, that's a very specific example.

00:48:20   Maybe someone might want to do this. I don't know, you know?

00:48:25   And occasionally, maybe I'm running into some kind of issue and there's a comment in the video that says, "I had this issue, by the way, and I did this."

00:48:33   And so you lose all of that experience if you just consume that service in a read-only mode.

00:48:43   And I'm not sure, I feel like... And Reader and Tapestry, by the way, I'm calling out because they're currently in TestFlight.

00:48:52   There was a crowdfunding campaign. They're from two high-profile developers.

00:48:56   But they're not the only apps doing this. I've seen some other examples.

00:49:00   There's another app called Feed with, like, five Es that Nilayan previously reviewed on Mac Stories.

00:49:07   It looks beautiful and it's sort of trying to do the same thing, like, "Oh, you can subscribe to your RSS, YouTube channels."

00:49:16   There's a bunch of sources. YouTube, Reddit. And, like, I get the idea, but this sort of aggregation...

00:49:25   I don't know. Historically, it's never worked well for me and I thought this time it could be different.

00:49:32   And so far it hasn't been different, where at the end of the day I'm still seeking the original source for the original experience.

00:49:41   And the intercommunication is fine and it's fun, but I feel like I'm losing too much value for that to be a permanent replacement for the five different icons on my home screen.

00:49:52   Do you know if, like, the old Reader is going to continue?

00:49:58   It seems like it will, because it sounds like there's a new teaser homepage that says, like, "This will be a brand new experience."

00:50:08   I think the old Reader will be discontinued, obviously, but it'll stick around.

00:50:13   I do want to say, design-wise, it's incredibly polished.

00:50:20   And I am sending a lot of feedback to Silvio. I sent him, like, a giant email last night.

00:50:26   Because I do think there's a place, like, "Well, what if my Mastodon timeline in Reader was interactive?

00:50:34   Like, what if I could boost and compose and..." Like, at that point, though, is it a timeline or is it a mini Mastodon client inside of Reader, right?

00:50:42   So I do think there's a place for, like, actual mini clients within a single app, but that's something that is very different from just saying, "Read multiple timelines into one."

00:50:54   You're actually building several functional read and write clients into the same UI, and I don't know if that's what Silvio wants to build,

00:51:05   or I don't know if that's what the icon factory wants to build.

00:51:08   Maybe I'm just being an old fuddy-duddy, but I like my RSS the way I like my RSS.

00:51:13   I don't really want to get that all intermingled of everything else, you know?

00:51:18   But it's an interesting topic, and I think it's something that we will continue to see because of ActivityPub,

00:51:25   because of this idea of, like, "Well, let's just make everything decentralized."

00:51:29   And it's funny because after making everything decentralized, you're feeling, like, the pull from the other direction of, like, "Well, but what if we could centralize it again?"

00:51:41   I guess that's just human nature.

00:51:44   I recall maybe it was an old Ben Thompson article months ago saying that it's in human nature to like centralized services

00:51:52   because they're comfortable and easy to use, and they have all the benefits of lock-in.

00:51:57   I think it's funny that it's happening now, but maybe there's a world in which multiple decentralized services can retain all of the benefits

00:52:07   and all of the features, even in a centralized UI.

00:52:10   Maybe that's possible.

00:52:11   So far, I'm not convinced, but maybe it will be possible.

00:52:15   This episode of Connected is brought to you by 1Password Extended Access Management.

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00:53:58   This week was Google's Pixel event. We saw the Pixel 9, 9 Pro, 9 Pro Fold, whose name is very difficult to say.

00:54:08   And the 9 Pro XL.

00:54:10   9 Pro XL, yes, the bigger--this is a pretty big phone.

00:54:15   These, of course, like all Google Pixels, massively leaked beforehand. We knew a lot about them.

00:54:21   We got some links in the show notes to some videos and some posts, the Verge, M-Cube HD, etc.

00:54:27   I think let's start with the hardware and then we can get into the what is a photo situation because that's increasingly, increasingly messy.

00:54:39   Mike, I'm really curious what you think about these. Something about these designs and colors kind of scream Mike Hurley to me.

00:54:45   It's all pink and green, baby. Let's go.

00:54:48   The colors of the 9, amazing. Like, they're so good. And yes, I would very much like them.

00:54:59   The colors of the phone that I'm most interested in, which is the Pro Fold, it's just white and black and that's not so exciting.

00:55:07   I think in general, all of the phones look really good. I think Google has their very polarizing, I think, very bold camera bar for the Pixel line.

00:55:22   But it's kind of like at least they're trying something, you know? You can either like it or not, but they're trying to make it into a design element.

00:55:32   Because it is always ugly, no matter what anybody does. Right there. The camera area on a phone is always tough.

00:55:40   I mean, take a good hard look at the back of your iPhone. Like, no one, no one wants that, you know? But it is it is what we're stuck with.

00:55:48   I do like the sort of more rounded look on the visor this time. I think it's fun. It kind of looks like it's looking at you, which is which is nice.

00:55:58   And at least with the Pixel 9 and the 9 Pro compared to other phones, like it is at least the whole way across.

00:56:07   So your phone on the table is not going to bounce around if you care about such things.

00:56:15   Yeah. And if you have a case, I mean, for most people, I don't think that's as big of a deal, but you live the caseless life.

00:56:21   It's a good life.

00:56:22   Caseless.

00:56:23   It's a good life.

00:56:24   Caseless.

00:56:25   No, no, no.

00:56:26   Do I just not have cases? That's all it is.

00:56:28   Let's talk about the Fold in particular. So it's six point three inches outside, which is kind of in between the two pro sized phones and then eight inches inside.

00:56:42   So that's what iPad mini ish.

00:56:45   I mean, there's always the aspect ratio thing, right? Which is totally very different.

00:56:49   Eight inches is the size of an iPad mini, but this is squarer, so it's not like physically bigger than an iPad.

00:56:56   That's always really complicated.

00:56:58   Math.

00:56:59   But it is it's a tablet inside.

00:57:02   I think this is of the best looking of these types of devices.

00:57:09   Yeah.

00:57:10   I think Samsung has done a good job over time, and I think they've refined the design of the Z Fold a lot, but they're still, I think, pushing up towards the this is like a phone on the front, like a regular phone on the front.

00:57:28   The OnePlus open, which I know is a phone that Federico has lasted over for a while, I think it is also similar.

00:57:34   Oh, I had it and I sold it.

00:57:35   You did have it.

00:57:36   Yes, I did have it.

00:57:38   Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:57:39   I loved it.

00:57:40   It's a great phone.

00:57:41   Yes.

00:57:42   That that is similar in like it on the outside is more more phone shaped.

00:57:49   The previous Pixel Fold was what was called like passport size where it was like, yeah, it was more squat squat like, yeah, shorter, you know, like, yeah, kind of funny looking, but actually very comfortable, it seems.

00:58:03   But all of the people that have had hands on with it are saying that like the front just feels like a regular phone. It's super thin when it's opened. It looks kind of like iPad Pro thin when it's open.

00:58:14   So when you close the thing, it's it's thicker than a normal phone, but not by an incredible amount.

00:58:22   So this looks like on the face of it from a hardware perspective, this looks to be about as good as you could make this product right now from like a usability perspective.

00:58:34   That's how it looks from videos and from what other people are saying. Do you feel the same with that Federico? I know that you have a similar intrigue to me with these types of devices.

00:58:47   I this device for me is the dream. And I was so close to pre-ordering one yesterday.

00:58:58   The only thing that stopped me is. Basically, how it went with the OnePlus open device that I absolutely loved.

00:59:06   And I think and eventually maybe we should I should I have all of these in my notes.

00:59:12   I think the OnePlus open was doing multitasking ahead, some multitasking ideas, much more interesting than the iPad.

00:59:19   Not that it's a high bar, but like some actual novel multitasking ideas for that form factor.

00:59:26   But the only thing that stopped me from pre-ordering one was that the problem is what I do for a living and the fact that I don't like the Android app ecosystem.

00:59:39   It's not even Android the problem. Like I could use Android just fine.

00:59:44   And you know, as we'll see, maybe I'll even use I would even use AI more on Android.

00:59:50   But my problem is that it's just it's not as fun as iOS for the types of apps that I like to use, like indie apps.

00:59:58   I was almost going to say boutique apps, but that's sort of how it feels in iOS sometimes. Right. All these, you know, very designed opinionated apps from indie developers.

01:00:09   That's what I like. And that also happens to be what I do for a living.

01:00:13   And so given that up would be would be an issue for me.

01:00:18   Like I wouldn't know and I wouldn't know what to do with that device.

01:00:22   Could I get it like as a second device to just use for watching videos and reading books?

01:00:28   Yeah. But I mean, it's it's an expensive device.

01:00:31   Yeah. As a fancy Kindle.

01:00:33   Was it like eighteen hundred dollars? It's very expensive.

01:00:37   But like my dream right now is the Apple version of this.

01:00:43   Like the iPhone that you unfold and it becomes like like a square ish tablet.

01:00:50   That is the dream. Like I I would be all over this device.

01:00:56   If it didn't run Android. That's my only issue.

01:01:00   The current rumors are like one to two years away from a folding phone.

01:01:06   But all of the rumors are pointing in different directions as to what form factor this is actually going to be.

01:01:11   So there isn't anything right now that feels locked on one way or another.

01:01:16   Like there are some people who are saying it's going to be like a Z Flip and some people are saying it's going to be like a Z Fold.

01:01:21   Like in it's you know. One is just to take your iPhone and fold it in half and the other one is take your iPhone and open it up.

01:01:28   Yeah. I think both I genuinely think both devices in Apple's lineup would make sense.

01:01:34   I think personally.

01:01:38   You know, I actually don't know which I'd prefer. Like, do I want my iPhone to get thicker and heavier again?

01:01:44   I don't know if I want that. Really.

01:01:47   Like I like the idea of having a tablet at all times.

01:01:51   But do I want it at the expense of a thicker heavier phone again?

01:01:56   I don't know. Like that's that's that's an interesting question to ask.

01:02:01   Because similar to you Federica I've tried all the form factors of these devices.

01:02:06   But I always end up moving away from them because it isn't the operating system experience that I like.

01:02:13   But is that also saying that maybe I don't find the experience overall compelling enough?

01:02:19   I actually don't know the answer to that. Truly.

01:02:22   But this device being like Google version of Android would be the nicest version of Android.

01:02:29   They seem to have done some work and they've refactored the form factor of the device to make it so that you're going to get more like full screen applications and less like black bars on the apps that they were having before like letterbox and pillar boxing.

01:02:42   Yeah it looks really nice but it's I had a similar thing to you where I was like you know well let me go take a look.

01:02:48   And there were two things that happened. One £1,800. I was like well I don't want that.

01:02:52   And it's like shipping on September 4th. Like well no I definitely don't want that.

01:02:56   So I just didn't do anything. But I'm intrigued for the reviews.

01:03:00   Yes. Same. Yeah.

01:03:02   Steven did you order one?

01:03:04   I did not order any Pixel phones.

01:03:07   I think my Pixel is a 5a but I've sort of given up on like.

01:03:12   I used to keep an Android phone around and like use it every once in a while and I just realized I wasn't ever doing that so.

01:03:19   Yeah. I also just think everybody that says that like let's just be real like you just want to have an Android phone because you think that device looks fun.

01:03:25   We don't have to all say the same thing of like oh my testing phone. We don't test anything on these phones.

01:03:32   We just think the phones look cool so we buy the phones.

01:03:34   And for a while I mean and for a while like mine was in this in the era of where they could do cool night photography. The iPhone wasn't right.

01:03:43   Yeah. They feel more similar now I guess.

01:03:46   Sound about photography that's one of the downsides of the fold is it has worse cameras.

01:03:51   Yeah. Which Samsung also does right on their foldables.

01:03:55   I think that's changed as of this year.

01:03:57   Okay.

01:03:58   That was always a thing that like especially the Z Flip it was always like two years behind.

01:04:04   But they made the Z Flip more expensive this year and one of the things you got in the trade off was a current camera.

01:04:09   Federico you mentioned AI on these phones. Obviously that's an increasingly important thing to Google especially on the Pixel phones.

01:04:19   There are several kind of scattershot features they mentioned. One is an AI weather report which is hilarious.

01:04:26   It just looks so stupid.

01:04:27   It takes so long like in the demo it takes so long to generate the report. It's like I already know what the weather is now. I've seen it all.

01:04:37   Yeah. Go look outside. The screenshots app I think is really interesting. So this is a separate app from the photos application.

01:04:48   It gathers all your screenshots. It does a bunch of text searching and you can go through them and find things.

01:04:56   If this works I think it's actually really interesting and potentially more interesting than just like a filter in Apple's photos app to get to your screenshots.

01:05:07   And I think the idea here is like eventually I could just like take a picture of an important thing and ask my assistant about hey what time is that meeting that I took a picture of the flyer for.

01:05:17   You know that is kind of the future I think a lot of people want. I don't know if the screenshots app on the Pixel 9 is going to get there or not.

01:05:26   But I think we're moving in that direction and to me at least that's pretty exciting.

01:05:31   This is the thing that I think I saw. I was like oh I actually want this on my phone.

01:05:36   I would be shocked if Apple doesn't come up with a similar screenshots app. I think this is exactly what they could do.

01:05:43   Say that it's processed on device that you take the screenshots. It's not like the OS continuously scanning what's on your screen.

01:05:52   It could be a nice way to sort of release some of the pressure for like text search and data detectors and all that sort of stuff from photos.

01:06:02   Especially now that they're sort of rethinking photos more around discovery and like people, trips, pets.

01:06:09   I think this is exactly the sort of thing that Apple should do and I would be very surprised if they don't show up something like this within the next year.

01:06:18   Why is this a separate application called screenshots?

01:06:22   Well because that's what people do every day. Like people take a lot of screenshots every day.

01:06:27   But you see Steven described a scenario that I also heard David Pierce describe on the Vergecast which this app would not do.

01:06:33   Which is I took a picture of something.

01:06:35   Yeah I realized that as I was saying it's not the perfect example.

01:06:38   David Pierce said the same thing. He was talking about he goes past the library and they have like their dates up for when they do a book sale.

01:06:44   David Pierce is smart and handsome.

01:06:46   He's very smart and handsome. And like I just don't, I don't, this should also be able to search stuff inside of photos I've taken of things is the way that I look at this.

01:06:57   Like not just screenshots. Right? Like I would like an app that searches all of that. Right?

01:07:06   Because like if I took a picture of a poster I would want that too. As well as I took a screenshot of a website thing.

01:07:16   I mean and look realistically I don't want any of these things. I want recall. That's what I want.

01:07:23   Well yeah.

01:07:24   That's what I want. But now everyone's, I think that this app may have been different and then this app changed.

01:07:30   Because it is, they're clearly dipping their toe in to the water of this. Right?

01:07:37   But they're like oh no it's just a screenshot so you choose.

01:07:40   Like this is the first step towards in like three years time when the gemini can just tell you everything you've ever seen.

01:07:49   You think it was more like Windows until a month ago and then they were like nope nope nope nope.

01:07:53   I think that that's possible. I do think that's possible. Because it is, this is an interesting thing but it's still not solving the actual problem that people have.

01:08:05   Like if you've made this application, you have addressed the idea, you have thought about and are addressing the idea of people are interested in things and they know they've seen them and they want that information later.

01:08:21   Because for me to use the screenshots app effectively, I have to know I want to take a screenshot of the thing that I might want to remember later.

01:08:29   But that isn't how my brain works. That I will proactively know what I want to remember before I realise I need to remember it.

01:08:38   Well that's why the dream, yeah, I mean the dream for me is, I know this is going to sound totally dystopian and yes I know there's an episode of Black Mirror about this.

01:08:51   But the dream is like I'm just wearing the Apple glasses and I have a constant memory buffer.

01:08:58   Without having to explicitly say, oh, like, imagine the scenario like I'm at the supermarket and I don't recall if I have, I don't know, carrots or not in my fridge.

01:09:09   Or like, imagine if I could just say Siri did I have carrots in my fridge and I know privacy, storage, blah blah blah.

01:09:17   But the idea is total recall without having to take a screenshot, without having to take a picture. That's in a very distant timeline the ideal.

01:09:29   This is absolutely going to happen but just everyone that's trying to do it so far is maybe doing it a little too early or they need to be the sacrificial lambs for somebody else to come and do it.

01:09:41   Just fundamentally think about the fact that you can search every iMessage conversation you've ever had with someone.

01:09:49   That isn't necessarily what you assume when you're having those conversations.

01:09:55   That everything you're saying now you can get in ten years time. You can just search the text of that.

01:10:02   That might be a bad example because iMessage search doesn't work very well but it's true.

01:10:06   They say email then.

01:10:08   So I have a story of this. Just yesterday Carrie sent me a message in Slack. I was like, "Hey, do you have my resume and cover letter I sent y'all when y'all were hiring?"

01:10:22   And she was like putting something together.

01:10:25   I don't like the sound of that.

01:10:27   No, she's not leaving.

01:10:29   Okay.

01:10:30   No.

01:10:31   And she's like putting something together and came across it in a book.

01:10:34   Anyway, so I found it. Just opened up email and found it and sent it to her.

01:10:40   And it's like, "Wow, everything is permanent."

01:10:43   I do think there is something to that, Mike, that maybe this was more.

01:10:49   I think Jim and I could probably do more but boy, Microsoft really fell on their sword.

01:10:55   Spoiler alert, don't store all this in plain text on disk. Maybe don't do it that way.

01:11:00   Google and Apple needed Microsoft to do that.

01:11:03   And I think it probably set everything back a little ways and maybe that's good, maybe it's not.

01:11:07   But you don't want to be caught in the situation Microsoft was caught in for sure.

01:11:13   What about AI generated art and magic editing?

01:11:19   Are you excited about taking a picture?

01:11:21   I think in the keynote there was a picture of a road turned into a river and suddenly it's a river.

01:11:27   Do we need this as something that we want?

01:11:29   No.

01:11:30   No, I hate it.

01:11:31   No, we don't need this.

01:11:32   I don't like this.

01:11:33   This is the...

01:11:35   There's one side of AI that I think if we set aside the conversation on the data sourcing,

01:11:43   just think about the feature.

01:11:47   There's a side of AI that is actually useful and there's the other side where like,

01:11:51   "Yeah, well, the tech made it possible so why don't we just let you... I don't know.

01:11:56   This was a picture of a road and now it's a picture of a river."

01:11:59   Is it necessary?

01:12:02   We've said this many times before, especially given the world that we live in,

01:12:10   misinformation everywhere, fake news on all kinds of social media and websites.

01:12:18   Now your phone can totally modify a picture or turn a photo into something that never was or never could be.

01:12:28   Is it cool?

01:12:29   Yeah.

01:12:30   In the same way that you could say, "Hey, isn't it cool if I do something totally stupid?"

01:12:37   I mean, yeah, but also it's also something totally stupid and dangerous.

01:12:41   Hey, would it be cool if I spent, I think so far, 18 hours writing about performance on a blog?

01:12:50   That'd be cool.

01:12:51   Exactly.

01:12:52   I just got the AI to do it for you.

01:12:53   Can I tell you all...

01:12:54   I don't think I told you all this.

01:12:55   So I had a meeting at our bank for uninteresting reasons.

01:13:01   And our new person wanted to know about the company and how it started anyway, so I was telling him the story.

01:13:09   I was like, "Back however many years ago, I met Mike. He was podcasting and I was blogging and he had me on a show."

01:13:18   And the guy who was about our age was like, "Man, I don't think I've ever heard anyone's story that started...

01:13:25   who were successful started with blogging."

01:13:29   I was like, "Well, I feel ancient."

01:13:31   Wow.

01:13:32   Well, I mean, you ain't wrong.

01:13:35   I was like, "Sir, let me tell you about the Performa 637 CD Money Magazine Edition."

01:13:41   And then they closed our make account and we didn't have a company anymore, so sorry.

01:13:46   That is very funny.

01:13:47   There aren't many people, right?

01:13:50   There was a very short window of time, incredibly short window of time for that, right?

01:13:56   Because now I don't think people start blogging and become successful.

01:14:00   And Five Fill Pixels is 16 years old almost and Mac Stories is almost 15 years old.

01:14:06   It's like, "You know what? We were right in the band of time and we made it."

01:14:10   Okay, we have to talk about ADME.

01:14:13   This AI, I guess it's AI?

01:14:17   I don't even think you would call this AI. I think this is just a great feature.

01:14:21   It's also just photo merging.

01:14:23   And MQBHC did an example of it in his video.

01:14:28   We have a link to that where the situation is you want to take a group photo,

01:14:32   but there's no one around to take the group photo, right?

01:14:35   We've all been in the situation.

01:14:36   It's like, "Ah, you know, I don't need to be in this. You two get in it or whatever."

01:14:39   Or you want to do a selfie, but no one's arm is long enough to get it far enough out.

01:14:43   And this is a feature that you basically take the first photo

01:14:49   and it figures out how much space to leave

01:14:52   and has you move the phone around a little bit so it gets additional depth information.

01:14:56   And then it walks you through taking a second photo with the person who took the first photo

01:15:01   and then it merges them.

01:15:03   So all three people in my example are in the photo.

01:15:07   And who knows if this actually works in the real world?

01:15:10   Marquez had one example. He said that's all he was allowed to do.

01:15:13   But pretty sweet.

01:15:17   This is a great idea.

01:15:19   Can you explain to me the scenario in which if you're running into this problem,

01:15:25   you don't take a group selfie or you don't ask a person nearby to take a picture for you?

01:15:30   Well, sometimes you don't want to ask.

01:15:33   I've been in this situation.

01:15:34   I go, "I want to take a photo with my family."

01:15:36   Do I want to hand a stranger at the zoo my phone?

01:15:38   That's weird.

01:15:39   The scenarios are slim but exist is the way I would put it.

01:15:44   I'm kind of sitting in between the middle of the two of you here.

01:15:47   I will say as the parent in the group, if it's like a family photo,

01:15:52   and that's not what Marquez's example was,

01:15:54   but a family photo, the group selfie doesn't usually work if your kid is half your height

01:16:00   or you want a nicer looking image.

01:16:03   I actually had this happen recently.

01:16:06   The Lis family came to our home in case we wanted to take a picture in our garden of everyone.

01:16:10   In case we had to balance his camera very precariously on a brick wall to get the timer thing.

01:16:18   When I saw this feature, I was like, "It would have been easier if you would have just taken the picture

01:16:22   and then come and take a picture and now Casey's in the picture."

01:16:26   I agree. These scenarios are very slim.

01:16:29   Most of the time you could just take a selfie because it is rare that there is a group.

01:16:35   Plus I think today selfies are better than the "I'm putting my phone over there" picture.

01:16:43   Especially if you do them in slow motion.

01:16:45   Slow fees.

01:16:47   Usually I just ask someone nearby to take a picture with me and here's my tip for you.

01:16:56   Obviously you have to hand them the phone on the lock screen so all they can do is just take a photo.

01:17:02   But when you approach a stranger with your phone asking for a picture, you want to make it clear through various signals

01:17:09   that you can outrun them if they try to run away with your phone.

01:17:14   So do you have to ask them and then run away really quickly?

01:17:17   No, but I don't know. You go there, you stretch a little, you make it clear.

01:17:21   Stretch a little. Here's my phone. Let me loosen up my hammies.

01:17:25   Exactly. You make it clear. Look buddy, if you try and outrun me, this is going to end live for you.

01:17:32   You could be like, "Hi, my name is Federico. I can do a 25 second mile."

01:17:35   Not 25 seconds, you know what I'm saying.

01:17:38   "I can do 100 meters in 25 seconds. By the way, can you take a picture of us?"

01:17:42   Yeah, you just make it clear through various physical signals that you're not somebody to be messed with.

01:17:50   I love it.

01:17:51   In terms of running away with your phone.

01:17:53   There's a way to do it and I've always been successful.

01:17:55   I get asked a lot to take pictures of people. This happens to me a lot.

01:18:00   Because maybe they think they can outrun you.

01:18:02   That's what it is. That is what it is.

01:18:04   That guy looks pretty slow. Let's ask him.

01:18:07   Look how beleaguered and labored he is in just his regular walking pace.

01:18:12   Really?

01:18:13   No problem with that.

01:18:14   Breathing heavily on the sidewalk here.

01:18:21   They also have something called Pixel Studio, which is Google's version of AI generated art on device.

01:18:26   It looks terrible in its own terrible way.

01:18:30   When I saw the examples of theirs, I can now see why Apple is doing the things that they're doing and the way that they're doing them.

01:18:38   But they all look bad.

01:18:39   Because Google is just straight up like, "We'll make whatever you want."

01:18:44   And so it just looks like that.

01:18:46   The way that AI art looks.

01:18:49   They're chasing Samsung on that, I think.

01:18:51   Samsung has been there and Apple is taking a different approach marginally.

01:18:57   Actually, more than marginally. Apple is taking a very different approach.

01:19:00   But I think all of it is gross.

01:19:01   None of them are good.

01:19:02   None of them are good.

01:19:03   And then they have Gemini Live, which is their talk, have a conversation with the AI thing.

01:19:09   Which that's not just on Pixel.

01:19:11   It's like, if you pay for Gemini on an Android right now, you're getting it and it's coming to iOS too.

01:19:16   And you know, it looks interesting.

01:19:18   Is it a...

01:19:21   I'm going to ask this carefully.

01:19:23   Because I...

01:19:25   Talking to Gemini, is it as upsetting as the thing we talked about in the pro show last week, the friend AI thing?

01:19:33   I don't think so.

01:19:36   What's the vibe Google wants for talking to Gemini?

01:19:39   Is it a friend or is it a tool?

01:19:41   Friendly assistant.

01:19:42   I think it's less...

01:19:44   It's even less flirty than the original open AI voice demo from last month.

01:19:52   It sounds pretty normal to me.

01:19:56   Not creepy.

01:19:58   It's like talking to an assistant, like their assistant.

01:20:01   It doesn't really feel like it's trying to have too much of a personality.

01:20:06   It talks in a personable way.

01:20:09   Right?

01:20:10   It's not being super buttoned up and serious, but it's also not like, "You're so funny."

01:20:18   Like the open AI one is.

01:20:20   Or was in that demo.

01:20:22   Yeah, very upsetting.

01:20:24   Okay, that makes me feel better because I get weirded out talking to the machine.

01:20:30   None of them are good.

01:20:34   None of it's like "good" but maybe not as concerning as like, "This thing should be your friend now."

01:20:43   Right, leave your wife and live with the AI.

01:20:46   Yeah.

01:20:47   Before we move on from this subject, and maybe there's other things you want to talk about,

01:20:50   I want to make sure I just hit this before we move on.

01:20:52   There's a great article on The Verge, which is titled, "Every time Google dinged Apple during the launch event."

01:20:58   I want to read three quotes to you.

01:21:00   I enjoyed this, yes.

01:21:02   These are all from the presentation, like from various presenters.

01:21:04   First one.

01:21:05   "Gemini is available around the world right now, far beyond English speakers in a single market."

01:21:13   "Gemini can handle these kinds of complex personal queries within Google's own secure cloud

01:21:18   without sending any of your personal data to a third-party AI provider who you may not know or trust."

01:21:24   Wow.

01:21:25   Yep.

01:21:26   Which is like, I like that because that's a double burn.

01:21:28   They got like a twofer in that one.

01:21:30   Yeah, and open AI all in one.

01:21:32   Yeah.

01:21:33   And something that I think will become increasingly important as these things, this type of technology continue,

01:21:40   all of the demos we're doing today are live.

01:21:43   Yep.

01:21:44   Yep.

01:21:45   Yep.

01:21:46   In this world of AI, this stuff is going to feel more impressive if Apple was to go back to live demos again.

01:21:51   Yeah.

01:21:52   My general feeling and takeaway, and this has been brewing, I guess, in my mind for a while,

01:22:01   and it was confirmed yesterday.

01:22:04   If you asked me last year, the answer would have been different.

01:22:08   But I think from a consumer perspective, I think the company that is now maybe best positioned to really sell AI is Google.

01:22:16   Like, I do think-

01:22:17   They have a massive advantage right now.

01:22:19   Yep.

01:22:20   Yeah.

01:22:21   I think last year I would have said, "Oh, it's open AI," because Google barred, as it was called.

01:22:25   Like, it's so far behind.

01:22:27   But now if you just take a look at actual things that people can do on an entire ecosystem of devices,

01:22:37   I don't want to say that if I were Apple, I would be scared.

01:22:39   I mean, maybe they are.

01:22:41   But I think Google is really flexing with this event, saying, "Well-"

01:22:46   In the Android ecosystem, they're just creating a more and more and more compelling device to buy.

01:22:52   Yes.

01:22:53   Right?

01:22:54   Yes.

01:22:55   And so they've always been a good choice.

01:22:57   Now they feel like a really obvious choice.

01:22:59   I mean, we'll see what the reviews are like of these devices,

01:23:01   but everybody's impressions is all some form of, "Oh, they finally did it,"

01:23:06   like referring to all of these devices that the overall package of all of them is really good.

01:23:11   And yeah, it makes sense that Google -- it's always made sense that Google should be able to do this.

01:23:18   Google invented the technology that enabled all of this.

01:23:21   Right.

01:23:22   The Transformer model is a Google invention.

01:23:24   Right.

01:23:25   And so, you know, I mean, Gem and I had a very bad launch, but they seem to have gotten over all of that now.

01:23:31   I think it also goes to the point -- and we've talked about this in other realms before --

01:23:37   that it's really hard to go up against the platform owner.

01:23:41   Right?

01:23:42   Open AI and ChatGPT, even with Apple's integration, is held a little bit at arm's length.

01:23:49   Right?

01:23:50   It's not baked into the OS like Siri or Gem and I.

01:23:54   And even if you have a better product, like, you know, I don't know where Gem and I and Open AI's tools,

01:24:00   like blow by blow where they stand right now,

01:24:04   but even if you're better, it's hard to be integrated.

01:24:08   Right?

01:24:09   And like the EU loves that sentence, which is why they're doing what they're doing.

01:24:12   But it's true.

01:24:13   And if you're Open AI, you're always, to a degree, going to be on the outside looking in.

01:24:21   And maybe you have first mover advantage, but somebody like Google is going to catch up to you.

01:24:29   And when it's built in and has access to the system that you don't have, that's really difficult to overcome.

01:24:35   Let me ask you guys a question.

01:24:40   If we didn't cover Apple specifically for a living, like if we were more like, you know,

01:24:47   people working on a website or a podcast network, like more like general tech news, like The Verge, for example,

01:24:56   today in 2024, would we use Android or iOS?

01:25:02   I think I would still use iOS, but I think that the answer to that question could be different in like two or three years from now.

01:25:09   I think with the current trajectory, I still think right now today,

01:25:13   because, you know, for all of the things we were talking about when we talk about the fold, right,

01:25:18   like I am still drawn to the overall experience of iOS more than the overall experience of Android.

01:25:24   But if these features actually do become really important, and I still think the jury is out on that,

01:25:33   like clearly Google is ahead and like the effort that Apple have to go to to get to their level is big.

01:25:43   Like they showed us a bunch of features at WWDC.

01:25:48   It's even that full package.

01:25:50   I don't think matches Gemini, and we're not going to get some of those features for a year.

01:25:57   So, what about you, Stephen?

01:26:02   That's a really hard question.

01:26:04   I mean, I was a big Apple user and fan before we started this, but Android is more compelling than ever.

01:26:14   I don't know. It would be hard.

01:26:15   I think I would still be in the iOS camp, but I struggle with the multiverse questions sometimes.

01:26:22   Do you remember when you had a Droid?

01:26:24   Droid, I did. I did because AT&T had the iPhone exclusively in the US,

01:26:32   and AT&T was miserable at St. Jude.

01:26:35   We were at St. Jude a lot, and so I bought a Droid on Verizon,

01:26:39   and then I bought the iPhone 4 when it came to Verizon and came back to the fold, so to speak.

01:26:45   Found an article from November 2010, "Reflections on Android," and I'll put it in the show notes for people.

01:26:53   I wonder how that reads.

01:26:55   And also one from March 2010 called "Why I switched to Android."

01:26:59   I'll put both of those in there.

01:27:00   Oh, yeah. I had a Pomperi in there for a while, too.

01:27:03   Oh, boy. Now that's a phone, you know?

01:27:06   Yeah. Man, WebOS had some ideas.

01:27:08   They had some ideas.

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01:28:31   Let's talk about Patreon.

01:28:33   I wanted to start with a disclosure.

01:28:36   Ooh.

01:28:37   Never really get to do this.

01:28:38   That's fun.

01:28:39   We work with, all of us work with Memberful,

01:28:42   both from a, we use them as a provider for our membership platforms.

01:28:47   We've also all had sponsorships from Memberful, across various things.

01:28:52   Memberful is owned by Patreon.

01:28:55   All of this stuff that we're going to talk about is completely unaffected.

01:28:59   None of the Apple stuff affects us in any way because it's all to do with iOS apps.

01:29:04   But I just want to mention that.

01:29:06   I feel like that's worthy, like worth mentioning.

01:29:09   The news is, this has been going on for a while,

01:29:13   but it's kind of like, as of a couple of days ago,

01:29:16   really kind of broken the ground, broken ground is that like,

01:29:21   Apple essentially is going to Patreon and telling Patreon

01:29:28   people that sign up in the iOS app to become patrons of any creator,

01:29:36   we want our 30% of those signups.

01:29:41   Now, the important thing, and I do think it is important to actually

01:29:46   make very clear what is and what is not happening,

01:29:49   because people are understandably assuming the worst,

01:29:54   the absolute possible worst of Apple in this scenario.

01:29:57   Yeah, I wonder how Apple ended up in that situation.

01:30:00   Apple is not going to get 30% of existing payments.

01:30:07   They're not going to get 30% of all Patreon payments.

01:30:12   Apple wants 30% of all iOS signups,

01:30:17   so people that sign up in the iOS app to become a patron of a creator,

01:30:22   from November onwards.

01:30:24   Anybody who has signed up in the iOS app before November,

01:30:30   Apple gets none of that money.

01:30:33   It is for new signups from this November date onwards.

01:30:38   I would love to know how Apple and Patreon got to that agreement.

01:30:43   Yeah.

01:30:44   And I will actually say, I think this is a testament,

01:30:48   Patreon have obviously put in a lot of hard work here.

01:30:50   Yes.

01:30:51   Because they have been able to get Apple to come to some kind of deal.

01:30:55   Lots of people are throwing around this idea of like,

01:30:58   "Apple, Patreon should just say no!"

01:31:01   Whatever.

01:31:02   This is clearly a deal Apple and Patreon have come to together,

01:31:06   which I'm sure has come, this is Patreon's response to a bunch of threats from Apple,

01:31:11   is my expectation here.

01:31:13   And this is the deal that Patreon feels like is maybe the best one for them to be in.

01:31:19   So that's kind of the groundwork, which I think is important to establish.

01:31:24   It's 30% of people that sign up for a Patreon in the iOS app only from November onwards.

01:31:34   And Patreon is enabling it for creators to choose if they want their 30% to come out of the money that they set,

01:31:42   or if they want to, in the iOS app, increase their amount by that 30%,

01:31:48   so they'll get the same amount of money.

01:31:50   So if you say, "My Patreon is $5 a month,"

01:31:54   if people sign up on the web or Android, they pay $5 a month,

01:31:57   and if people sign up on iOS, they'll pay 30% more than that,

01:32:03   whatever that ends up being.

01:32:05   So you as the creator get the same amount of money from every sign up,

01:32:11   even though people would pay different amounts in different places.

01:32:14   So that's kind of the groundwork.

01:32:17   Get into your feelings.

01:32:20   I have them.

01:32:23   I mean, I make, I don't know, a large percentage of my income from members,

01:32:29   direct support of my creative work, which I'm very thankful for.

01:32:33   And we talked about this on Clockwise yesterday.

01:32:37   This was my topic.

01:32:39   And what I said then was, "Apple doesn't have any right, in my view,

01:32:45   to step in between content creators and people who want to support them directly."

01:32:51   And Shelly Brisbane responded with a really good point.

01:32:54   It's like, "Isn't that also true of a bunch of stuff in third-party apps?"

01:32:58   Yeah, agreed.

01:33:00   But this is the topic of today.

01:33:02   So for me, I understand that Patreon, by the letter of the law,

01:33:08   was outside of the rules of the App Store for a long time,

01:33:11   and they've talked about that for a long time.

01:33:13   They previewed these changes a while back.

01:33:16   You should not be surprised if you've been paying attention.

01:33:19   And I guess, to Apple's credit, they're doing what you said, Mike,

01:33:24   moving forward in November, new sign-ups only through the iOS app.

01:33:29   But it is clear to me that Apple wanting a piece of every transaction

01:33:36   that flows through their App Store payment system just makes less and less sense.

01:33:44   And I get it, right?

01:33:49   We're content creators supported by our listeners, right?

01:33:52   We're the target demo for this, so it feels more personal to us.

01:33:56   But I have a very hard time understanding why Apple has any right to that money.

01:34:03   My personal feeling is that it's disgusting, honestly.

01:34:10   That's how I feel.

01:34:12   I think over the past, what, 16 years of the App Store,

01:34:17   some of us, maybe including me at some point,

01:34:21   we deluded ourselves into thinking that it was fair to give up 30% of revenue

01:34:29   because of the services that Apple provides you with.

01:34:31   And in this case for Patreon, I think it's especially evil to ask for 30%

01:34:40   when all you're doing is provide the binary of the app that is distributed through the App Store.

01:34:46   When effectively all the work is being put in by the creators and by Patreon,

01:34:50   providing the infrastructure, I just cannot believe that 30% is justifiable

01:34:58   because you build the OS and you build SwiftUI and you like it,

01:35:04   and now you're asking for 30% of all the payments that occur through the iOS client of Patreon.

01:35:10   It just doesn't make any sense to me.

01:35:12   And I think, you know, I feel like what Apple doesn't seem to understand right now

01:35:21   is that there's a financial cost for these things and there's a reputational cost.

01:35:29   And what they seem to be failing to understand right now

01:35:35   is that their reputation is running away from them.

01:35:40   If you just consider the past year, when all the DMA stuff started,

01:35:48   let alone all the App Store and developer controversies from the past several years,

01:35:54   but even if you just put your mind to the last year alone,

01:35:59   Apple has gone, in the public eye, in the media, has gone so quickly

01:36:06   from being the company formerly created and run by Steve Jobs

01:36:11   to this sort of greedy, monopolistic entity that doesn't really understand creators and creatives.

01:36:18   And I think it's quite scary to think about it.

01:36:21   And it's even scarier that they don't see it.

01:36:25   Sometimes you gotta lose money. That's what I think.

01:36:31   That sometimes you gotta be flexible and lose a bit of money,

01:36:36   especially when you're worth, what, three trillion dollars?

01:36:40   I forgot.

01:36:41   How much money are they gonna pull in from Patreon?

01:36:43   I don't know. I have no idea.

01:36:45   Seriously, what is it worth? One billion? Two billion?

01:36:50   When you're worth, how many billions is a trillion? Like a thousand or something?

01:36:54   I don't even know. It's so much money. It's ridiculous.

01:36:58   Sometimes you gotta be flexible and be welcoming and reduce your commission

01:37:08   so that you can gain in reputation, especially, especially now that your reputation is at risk

01:37:18   because of what you're doing with AI, because of what you're doing in the European Union,

01:37:24   trying your best to squeeze every last cent out of regulation as much as you can,

01:37:30   because of what you've done with the crash ad with the iPad Pro.

01:37:35   Like, the fact that they don't understand what people in the creative field

01:37:45   have started thinking about them is concerning.

01:37:49   And to be so out of touch right now to say, "Well, people on Patreon, who cares?

01:37:55   They gotta start paying up."

01:37:57   I don't know. It seems antithetical to what Apple stands for,

01:38:03   and it seems like a very silly business decision given the current climate in 2024.

01:38:10   I don't understand what right Apple believes they have for any of this money.

01:38:17   Like, to go back to what you mentioned, Stephen, to Shelley's response of, like,

01:38:23   "It's the same for developers." It's not the same for developers.

01:38:27   Developers get something from Apple, right?

01:38:29   I don't believe that it is worth the 30%, but it's worth something, right?

01:38:34   They get access to the platform, access to the app store, no cost for distribution.

01:38:41   It's all handled by Apple.

01:38:42   And also, if you want to put a price to the SDK and to the IP, you can do that.

01:38:49   So there is an exchange.

01:38:53   A YouTuber has no relationship with Apple at all for their work.

01:39:00   So Apple wants 30% of that.

01:39:03   They can ask Patreon for money, right?

01:39:07   If they want to.

01:39:09   And Patreon and Apple can work out 30% of what Patreon takes from creators,

01:39:15   which I think is about 8%, which is incredible when you think about it, right?

01:39:19   Because Patreon are providing all of the infrastructure, like, similar infrastructure.

01:39:25   And here's the thing.

01:39:29   I think this is actually-- I believe this is the biggest risk Apple's taking reputationally

01:39:37   when it comes to money.

01:39:39   Developers, people don't care about.

01:39:42   I love developers. We love developers.

01:39:44   Everybody who listens to this show loves developers.

01:39:46   The average person, they don't think about developers.

01:39:49   Developers, developers, developers.

01:39:50   They just don't think about them, right?

01:39:51   It's not something they think about.

01:39:53   People don't even like paying for apps anyway, right?

01:39:55   People don't think about it.

01:39:56   Sure.

01:39:57   Content creators, though, people love their content creators.

01:40:01   People love their content creators.

01:40:02   And they want to give them money because they have that relationship to them.

01:40:07   What's going to happen now is content creators are going to say,

01:40:11   "Sign up from Patreon, but not on iOS.

01:40:13   Sign up on the web or Android, but not on Apple.

01:40:16   Don't sign up on Apple because you'll pay more."

01:40:19   It's interesting.

01:40:20   That is a thing that happens on Metas applications,

01:40:25   where if you go to buy an ad or a couple other things,

01:40:29   it's like they show you Apple markup or Apple--

01:40:35   I forget what they call it.

01:40:36   It's something kind of cheeky.

01:40:37   And of course, Meta can do it because they're Meta and Apple's not going to--

01:40:40   Even then, Meta can't be as brazen as a YouTuber will be, right?

01:40:45   Where they will say, "Apple will charge you more,

01:40:48   so you should just sign up on the web."

01:40:50   And they are happy.

01:40:53   Surely someone's thought about this, right, at Apple.

01:40:57   They're happy to take that risk when they're starting at $0, right?

01:41:02   Every creator will start to say, "Don't do this."

01:41:06   And Apple is starting their relationship with Patreon.

01:41:09   Making no money.

01:41:11   Because it starts in November on a clean slate, and it's everyone from that point.

01:41:15   So Apple is willing to take that risk starting at $0.

01:41:18   They'll make maybe what, $100,000 maybe in the first year?

01:41:22   It's not going to be a lot of money.

01:41:24   30% of the people that sign up for Patreons in the iOS app.

01:41:29   There are so many layers you have to go through,

01:41:32   and then you're putting yourself in the position where every Patreon creator will say,

01:41:37   "Don't sign up on Apple.

01:41:38   Apple wants to take money."

01:41:40   As well, Apple are happy for their customers to pay more for digital goods.

01:41:46   They don't care as long as they get their...

01:41:49   They don't care that Spotify is more expensive.

01:41:52   They don't care that YouTube is more expensive.

01:41:54   They don't care that any of these things are more expensive,

01:41:57   as long as they get their 30%.

01:41:59   So if you are a customer on Apple's platforms,

01:42:02   you pay more than people on Android, and you pay more than if you just use Safari.

01:42:07   Apple does not care.

01:42:09   It is perfectly fine for you to put 30% on top.

01:42:13   They just don't care. They just want their money.

01:42:16   And I think it is wild to me.

01:42:18   This is, I think, as bad as it has ever been with them, for us and for the money.

01:42:26   Let me say, I think it's also... What I really dislike is the hypocrisy of saying that you love the environment,

01:42:40   but also not blinking twice when it comes to charging people 30% more.

01:42:44   I just cannot accept...

01:42:48   How are you linking those two together?

01:42:50   Oh, yeah. How does the environment get to 30%?

01:42:52   Well, because you're trying to put up a good face when it comes to the environment,

01:42:59   but also at the same time, you don't care about people spending more money,

01:43:06   and therefore, you know, I don't know, like, just wasting resources, I guess, is what bothers me.

01:43:14   I think if I can try and maybe jump in for you here, just to say, like,

01:43:19   the environment, they put the good guy face on.

01:43:22   They put the good guy face on about preserving resources,

01:43:27   but then when it comes to preserving human, you know, people's resources, time and money, you just don't care.

01:43:34   So, like, you put on a good guy face when it comes to trees and solar power,

01:43:39   but then when it comes to, like, actually taking money out of my wallet, you just don't care.

01:43:44   Or even just like Apple always continues to talk about creators, and they make their products for creators,

01:43:51   and, you know, like, it's the backbone of the thing different.

01:43:55   That's the same vibe after that iPad ad, squishing all the instruments, right?

01:44:01   Like, is it the same kind of feeling?

01:44:05   And here's the thing I don't understand, right?

01:44:08   So 30%, what's that for?

01:44:12   Because... - See, that's what I was asking. I have no idea.

01:44:15   - Apple's not distributing anything, right? For these people. Patreon's doing the distribution.

01:44:20   - They're distributing the app via CDN.

01:44:25   - Yeah, but that's not the 30% of the creators, though, right?

01:44:29   - No, no.

01:44:30   - Because whenever Apple is pushed, right, they will say it's 3% for payment.

01:44:37   - Sure.

01:44:38   - And then 27% for RIP and the use of our developer tools.

01:44:43   - I mean, that's a commission, okay.

01:44:45   - But, like, that's what they say, right? That's how they break it down.

01:44:49   Well, it should be 3% then, shouldn't it? Because all the creators are using,

01:44:54   the creators you're taking the money from, all they're using is the payment processing,

01:45:00   because everything else Apple is not involved in at all.

01:45:05   Now, again, Patreon makes an app, and Patreon makes money from the app.

01:45:13   If Apple and Patreon want to work out a scenario where Apple takes 30% of what Patreon makes,

01:45:20   then, all right, what might happen is, Patreon puts up their percentage to creators by 2%,

01:45:26   but then that's only 2%, and then they can then pay off Apple out of the difference.

01:45:32   But we're looking at 30%, and so, like, Patreon take 8%, now Apple want 30%.

01:45:39   Incredible. It's incredible. Incredible.

01:45:41   Why would you do this? You were doing this for $0. You're going to make $0 to start.

01:45:47   - It doesn't make any sense, and what's even more problematic is that I feel like

01:45:53   there are going to be ripple effects, and there are going to be consequences,

01:45:57   because this idea that Apple is greedy, and that Apple hates developers,

01:46:02   and that Apple hates creatives, it's out there now, and it's growing stronger.

01:46:07   Like, it's not a fluke. It's an idea that is, I think, it's spreading.

01:46:14   That's what memes do. That's what ideas do.

01:46:18   And the ripple effects of that, because this is something that I feel internally,

01:46:25   and I got to believe that it's true for other people as well.

01:46:28   I see these stories, and it makes me feel bad about giving more money to Apple with services,

01:46:36   even though I like Apple Music, for example.

01:46:39   But it almost makes me feel like, you know, just maybe out of spite or as a principle,

01:46:48   maybe I should use Spotify, because I don't want to give more money to Apple.

01:46:52   It's a scales problem, right? Like, you can imagine you've got the good side and the bad side,

01:46:58   and you just keep adding things on the bad side, and then at what point is it not worth it anymore?

01:47:05   And I'm still not at that point, even though I hate this. I'm still not at that point,

01:47:09   because the products and everything is so good, but you get closer and closer all the time, right,

01:47:15   to the scales kind of tipping.

01:47:17   To be fair, though, right now, I feel like it's the products and the--

01:47:24   and I want to put my emphasis here--the existing ecosystem that's saving them,

01:47:31   because everything else, from policy to developer relations,

01:47:36   and if you consider new ecosystem--because, I mean, let's face it,

01:47:40   the Vision Pro is not a success by any means.

01:47:43   Like, it is not, and it doesn't have an ecosystem.

01:47:47   And you've got to believe that part of the reason there is that because if you're a new developer today,

01:47:55   would you just trust your entire career to Apple right now as a new developer with a new ecosystem?

01:48:03   So what's saving them is the quality of the product from a hardware perspective,

01:48:08   from a design perspective, and the strength of the existing ecosystems.

01:48:12   The Mac, iOS, and to an extent, iPadOS.

01:48:16   But I do believe that they have a problem, and they are not reacting to the problem.

01:48:23   They're just making it worse.

01:48:25   If I can jump back a second to the memes thing you were talking about,

01:48:28   and, like, people's opinions about Apple.

01:48:30   I think the responses that I've been seeing a lot of people have to this is perfectly that,

01:48:36   which is people saying, "Oh, well, they're doing this because of the thing that

01:48:40   they might be losing their Google money."

01:48:43   Like, that's just not correct.

01:48:46   But it's interesting that people feel that way.

01:48:49   But it's not correct. Here's the thing.

01:48:51   It's not correct, but it feels correct.

01:48:54   Exactly. That's what I mean.

01:48:55   And that's the problem.

01:48:57   And it's emblematic of where they are right now.

01:48:59   I mean, the reason I say that is this thing with Patreon and Apple, it's been going on for a long time.

01:49:04   Like, Patreon actually first spoke about this months and months and months ago,

01:49:08   and that Google thing happened last week.

01:49:10   But the timing of these things has just come together.

01:49:14   But it's still the same thing.

01:49:16   It's emblematic of the fact that Apple want, for some reason, Apple want all the money in the world.

01:49:20   Like, I actually don't know what they are planning to do with it all, but they want all of it.

01:49:25   That's what is true.

01:49:27   But people are just like, "That happened, so this has happened."

01:49:31   And they draw that line because it is absolutely their trend right now.

01:49:39   Because we're talking constantly about this stuff.

01:49:43   Yeah. How many more Patreons are they going to have to squeeze to make up 20 billion, you know?

01:49:48   Like, look out.

01:49:50   Yeah, I mean, I think you're right.

01:49:54   The fact that people jump to that is pretty damning in and of itself.

01:49:58   And I just keep going back to what, I think, Federica, you said about the reputational damage they're doing to themselves.

01:50:08   It's breathtaking.

01:50:12   And for a company that, I mean, for a long time prided itself, and I think still does.

01:50:20   I think generally Apple still prided itself on making tools for creatives.

01:50:25   Like, this is just the wrong move over and over, no matter which way you look at it.

01:50:31   There's just a team that has too much power.

01:50:34   There is a team inside of Apple that has too much power. That's what this is.

01:50:37   I was going to say, it's almost like there are two Apples within Apple.

01:50:41   And there's the one that we love that is making great products, that makes the new iPhone,

01:50:46   that makes the designs, the Dynamic Islands, that makes the Apple Pencil Pro, that builds AirPods.

01:50:52   Like, that's the Apple we love, and that's one of them.

01:50:56   And the other one is the Apple that manages the second Apple, and that's the one doing all the damage, unfortunately.

01:51:06   Yeah.

01:51:07   Jon's been writing a lot about this over at Daring Fireball, and he had a piece on Tuesday arguing that creator platforms to be a special category in the App Store,

01:51:20   which I think is a fascinating idea, right? They carved out reader apps, you know, Netflix, whatever, etc., years ago.

01:51:29   And he brings up Substack, which is like is a problematic example in many ways. I'm not going to touch any of those things.

01:51:36   The way Substack does it is they basically have an in-app purchase for like each distinct plan within the app, which is bonkers.

01:51:46   It is wild that someone has to go to that lengths to be compatible with Apple's rules that are really written for games and applications.

01:51:57   Do you remember Twitter did this for a while when they were doing this too?

01:52:01   Oh, yeah, to pay for Twitter Blue?

01:52:04   No, it was you could sign up to give creators money, but they had to limit the amount of creators they could bring onto the platform because they had to sept to create a new in-app purchase tier for every single one.

01:52:15   Yeah. And well, thankfully, you know, Twitter's really well staffed. They could handle that. But Patreon is a small company. So what are you going to do?

01:52:22   It's just it's so disheartening. Like, I mean, this has been going on for a few days now, like every article I read about it.

01:52:28   I just I'm sad because I don't know. I don't want to live in a world where, like Apple is making these sorts of decisions.

01:52:38   And I think that the App Store model for all of its problems, the the lack of flexibility when it comes to things like this is is towards the top of my list.

01:52:51   Like, yeah, why? Why are you taking 30 percent from this? Like, shouldn't there be a carve out for apps like this?

01:52:58   And yes, Patreon's probably the biggest, but there are lots of apps that are creator focused and they all have to deal with this in one way or another.

01:53:08   And you're just hurting people who like want to make things for their fans. And that's that's not a position Apple should be in.

01:53:15   Yeah. Well, maybe by the next episode, there's going to be an apology and, you know, a reversal of this decision. But I don't know.

01:53:26   This one just seems like an easy one not to do. But yeah, like but but the fact that it got this far.

01:53:34   Makes me feel like they just don't care and they will just ride it through like they don't care.

01:53:40   I think it's a real possibility this doesn't change. I thought the first couple of days, like Apple's going to roll this back like this isn't this isn't going to happen.

01:53:49   But it's been some product manager just have too many meetings that they shouldn't have had and like it didn't pass through somebody else.

01:53:56   And then Patreon posted this thing and they're like, oh, my God, what are you doing?

01:53:59   Yeah, you hope it's going to happen. But Phil Schiller knows about this now and it had changed.

01:54:04   And I don't know if it's actually his decision, but it feels like maybe it's his decision. And that's unfortunate.

01:54:12   On that note, let's I think we're done.

01:54:16   So if you want to find links to the stuff we spoke about this week, they are in your podcast player.

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01:54:58   If you want to find more of us, we're online. You can find Mike on Threads and Macedon is I Mike.

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01:55:35   I am the purveyor of perform a month. So go read about that at perform a dot blog.

01:55:41   And yeah, yeah. Don't do HTTPS though. Don't do that.

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01:56:10   Bye, all.