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Cortex

154: Workplace Therapy With Grey

 

00:00:00 ◼   ► I have like three key areas of frustration right now, and I need to talk them through with you.

00:00:05 ◼   ► Like today, this episode of Quotex is basically going to be like workplace therapy for me.

00:00:09 ◼   ► I was just about to say, it feels like you're setting me up to be like your therapist for this episode.

00:00:14 ◼   ► Is that what you want to do, Mike?

00:00:15 ◼   ► Yes, I need that.

00:00:17 ◼   ► I'm here for you. Let's do that.

00:00:18 ◼   ► So you're sitting on the couch, I've got my clipboard. How are you feeling?

00:00:24 ◼   ► I'm considering turning off notifications for email.

00:00:26 ◼   ► Oh my god. Okay. Wow.

00:00:28 ◼   ► Yeah, this is a pretty big deal for me.

00:00:30 ◼   ► Before we dive in, I feel like what I would like is, can you give me the brief version of how have we gotten here?

00:00:37 ◼   ► Because I just feel like you've just dumped out onto a desk.

00:00:41 ◼   ► I've got these email apps and like a bunch of problems that I'm getting all these messages.

00:00:44 ◼   ► I feel like how have we arrived where we are right now for the sake of clarity?

00:00:49 ◼   ► Okay, so I've always been a notifications person.

00:00:53 ◼   ► I like getting notifications and when I started my first business, Relay FM, I was responsible for sales.

00:01:02 ◼   ► And especially when you're starting out a business like that and you're trying to build a client base,

00:01:06 ◼   ► being as responsive as possible is very helpful.

00:01:10 ◼   ► For sure.

00:01:10 ◼   ► So having email notifications would mean that I was going to get back to people in a timely manner

00:01:16 ◼   ► and I would be able to handle it that way.

00:01:18 ◼   ► This was many years that I did this job and over this time I built habits, especially around triage.

00:01:23 ◼   ► Like I was able to use my notifications as triage.

00:01:26 ◼   ► So, you know, I get a bunch of email, I could look at notifications, I could archive them from notifications.

00:01:31 ◼   ► They'd never even be in my inbox when I opened my email app.

00:01:33 ◼   ► I would also know when the important stuff came in and I could jump to it quickly.

00:01:39 ◼   ► And then over time things changed.

00:01:40 ◼   ► So one of them was I turned notifications for email off on my Apple Watch.

00:01:45 ◼   ► So it was just on my iPhone and then also my role at Relay changed.

00:01:49 ◼   ► And now I don't do sales anymore really.

00:01:51 ◼   ► I have a couple of clients but I deal with them once every three to 12 months.

00:01:58 ◼   ► The clients that I still handle, so there really isn't anything pressing with that anymore.

00:02:03 ◼   ► And I'm getting less and less of this email coming.

00:02:06 ◼   ► I'm still CC'd and more stuff than I would like, which feels like something that no matter how much we try,

00:02:11 ◼   ► we can't seem to get rid of.

00:02:13 ◼   ► But that's fine, right?

00:02:15 ◼   ► Because I don't need to see those emails so often.

00:02:17 ◼   ► And this is making me realize the notifications for email that I'm getting,

00:02:24 ◼   ► they have the ability to change what I'm thinking about at any moment.

00:02:29 ◼   ► Where I could be doing something or enjoying a moment of some description,

00:02:34 ◼   ► you know, like we're watching TV, I'm hanging out, I'm playing games,

00:02:39 ◼   ► and then I get an email which frustrates me.

00:02:42 ◼   ► But I don't need that at that point.

00:02:45 ◼   ► I can come to it later on.

00:02:47 ◼   ► This is more like how I managed email in my old job,

00:02:52 ◼   ► which I probably feel like is not the way people do email anymore.

00:02:56 ◼   ► I feel like one of the things that would have changed over the last 10 years

00:03:00 ◼   ► is that people are actually just receiving this email to their phone

00:03:04 ◼   ► because they have a work phone or they're signed into an email app for work on their personal phone.

00:03:10 ◼   ► And so people probably are getting more notifications like I am,

00:03:14 ◼   ► which is like a very upsetting thought where I would just only see my email

00:03:18 ◼   ► when I logged into my computer when I was at my desk at the office.

00:03:22 ◼   ► Yeah, it's interesting you bring this up now because I've had a bunch of email thoughts

00:03:25 ◼   ► and I'm going to be making some changes as well.

00:03:28 ◼   ► But like, I think what you're describing here is your role has changed over 10 years.

00:03:35 ◼   ► And also the nature of email has changed over 10 years.

00:03:39 ◼   ► So I've been taking notes over here and the very first thing that I wanted to know is like,

00:03:44 ◼   ► where are you most productive at dealing with email?

00:03:50 ◼   ► Because you are still living the sales mic life in regards to email

00:03:57 ◼   ► when your actual life is executive mic and also product designer mic.

00:04:04 ◼   ► And the sales email life is just no good and completely incompatible

00:04:12 ◼   ► with functioning well in those other two roles.

00:04:16 ◼   ► In any of my creative roles.

00:04:17 ◼   ► Yeah, I feel like what you're dealing with is a little bit of like what my frustrations are

00:04:23 ◼   ► always with my own work is like, creative work is just different.

00:04:27 ◼   ► And I, as someone who works with you on Cortex Brad,

00:04:31 ◼   ► extremely alarmed to imagine the scenario where you are sitting down

00:04:36 ◼   ► and you're working on a design for a future product.

00:04:39 ◼   ► And you're in like a good mental space while you're working on that.

00:04:43 ◼   ► And then some random thing from the outside world comes in and messes with that.

00:04:50 ◼   ► Like that's very costly to the company in a real way.

00:04:53 ◼   ► And so question one is like, where are you most productive on email?

00:04:58 ◼   ► Like, where are you best equipped to handle email?

00:05:01 ◼   ► And I just cannot imagine that this is your phone at all.

00:05:06 ◼   ► Like this can't possibly be the current place.

00:05:09 ◼   ► Oh, I don't know though.

00:05:11 ◼   ► All right, so here's the thing is there's still going to be a lot of triage.

00:05:15 ◼   ► In fact, there'll be more triage than ever now.

00:05:17 ◼   ► Like if I'm turning off notifications, every time I open my inbox,

00:05:21 ◼   ► my inbox is going to be more full than it's been in 20 years.

00:05:25 ◼   ► Right, yeah.

00:05:26 ◼   ► Because I wouldn't have been like getting rid of stuff like that.

00:05:29 ◼   ► And so I do feel like my iPhone is still going to be a really good email machine

00:05:34 ◼   ► for me for dealing with 50% of the job,

00:05:38 ◼   ► which is either removing or assigning email to other people.

00:05:43 ◼   ► But if I'm going to sit down and like actually deal with something,

00:05:46 ◼   ► it's probably going to be at my Mac.

00:05:48 ◼   ► But I do still feel like both of those tools are important for the things that they are best at.

00:05:53 ◼   ► And like for me, swiping, done, done, done, done,

00:05:57 ◼   ► because remember we don't archive in Spark.

00:05:59 ◼   ► We done an email.

00:06:00 ◼   ► So if I swipe done, done, done, like I want to still be able to do that.

00:06:03 ◼   ► That's still like an important tool for me as well.

00:06:07 ◼   ► Like just because of still the nature of my work,

00:06:10 ◼   ► I want to be able to fire quick things off every now and again.

00:06:13 ◼   ► And so my iPhone is still really good at that.

00:06:16 ◼   ► But I think I just don't want it to be grabbing me anymore.

00:06:20 ◼   ► I think you should ask yourself the question of what is the real material value

00:06:25 ◼   ► of like sending off something real quick from that device?

00:06:29 ◼   ► Or what is the real material value of having done triage

00:06:34 ◼   ► before you're sitting down to deal with your email?

00:06:36 ◼   ► Are you suggesting I do not have an email app on my iPhone?

00:06:40 ◼   ► I want to have a discussion about the idea

00:06:43 ◼   ► and what it is that you're trying to achieve.

00:06:45 ◼   ► Because what I'm trying to get around to here is like,

00:06:48 ◼   ► your role is just real different.

00:06:50 ◼   ► And like we've had many, many discussions about the wheel of email,

00:06:55 ◼   ► which is like, I actually think of it as like a rack, right,

00:06:58 ◼   ► upon which people are tortured, right?

00:06:59 ◼   ► Like that is how I feel about email.

00:07:01 ◼   ► Well, whenever I have to imagine the wheel of email,

00:07:03 ◼   ► I've always imagined like the wheel that someone gets someone and the knives are thrown.

00:07:07 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:07:08 ◼   ► That's how it's always been to me.

00:07:10 ◼   ► Like you're just on and the emails are being thrown at you.

00:07:13 ◼   ► And sometimes they're getting you and sometimes they're not.

00:07:15 ◼   ► OK, but so what I'm trying to get at is like,

00:07:17 ◼   ► we've had many conversations over the years about this.

00:07:20 ◼   ► And it is a thing that like I have observed you work with email for years.

00:07:25 ◼   ► And I have always come around like when you tell me

00:07:31 ◼   ► how you have been dealing with this in the past.

00:07:33 ◼   ► It's like, oh, no, you have a good system for what you need to do.

00:07:37 ◼   ► It's not what I would ever do.

00:07:38 ◼   ► But I think like, oh, no, Mike's been right to do this.

00:07:41 ◼   ► Like the way Mike triages things, like the quick response, all of that.

00:07:44 ◼   ► Like I think it has always been great.

00:07:46 ◼   ► But I am convinced that you are feeling a frustration here because you still want to use this thing

00:07:53 ◼   ► which has served you well in a way that I just do not think is compatible with your actual roles now.

00:08:02 ◼   ► And so when you want to do the thing of like, oh, I just want to quickly respond to a message.

00:08:08 ◼   ► I have the same problem where it's like I can be the hold up for something.

00:08:11 ◼   ► And if I was just to give a quick like thumbs up or thumbs down to something like I unblock another person

00:08:16 ◼   ► and let them move forward on a thing.

00:08:19 ◼   ► And that is valuable.

00:08:21 ◼   ► But it is quite easy to overvalue how much it really, really matters in the moment to unblock that person

00:08:30 ◼   ► versus just them waiting a little longer compared to whatever it is that you're doing.

00:08:38 ◼   ► Okay, these three topics in a way I feel like there's a meta thing which I want to just like discuss here,

00:08:44 ◼   ► which is something like the opportunity cost of your time.

00:08:47 ◼   ► These problems, just as you quickly outlined them to me, feel like they are all related to that idea.

00:08:54 ◼   ► I've always said to people like, especially if you are like, you're trying to work on your own and you want to be a freelancer.

00:09:01 ◼   ► But even if you are working a more traditional career path, like you're a salaried employee and there's a promotion ladder,

00:09:07 ◼   ► a thing that you should keep in mind when you're working on your career is that over time, the value of your time per hour should go up.

00:09:18 ◼   ► That's like a measure of success in the sense of like, oh, you're achieving what you're setting out to achieve.

00:09:25 ◼   ► You're more valuable in your career and that is represented by like the dollars earned per hour.

00:09:29 ◼   ► Or if you're salaried, the reverse is true of like what you're trying to do is be able to do the same amount of stuff,

00:09:36 ◼   ► but in less time, right, which is what I was always really focused on as a teacher.

00:09:41 ◼   ► And so you, Mike, have been successful at like push that number up, like the hourly number up over the past many years.

00:09:51 ◼   ► But what I see in people is that this does start to cause like a bunch of weird frustrations and problems

00:09:58 ◼   ► that are all related to the idea of just like this opportunity cost of your time.

00:10:03 ◼   ► Like as your time gets more valuable, it kind of causes frustrations and problems.

00:10:08 ◼   ► And so I want you to keep that in your mind because your actual goal is something like,

00:10:16 ◼   ► what is the least number of minutes that could be spent on email in an effective way?

00:10:24 ◼   ► And every time you quickly send off a message or like you quickly archive something,

00:10:32 ◼   ► there's some kind of like, I don't know what a good metric would be,

00:10:35 ◼   ► but there's some kind of like sticky brain time that should be added to each of those things.

00:10:40 ◼   ► Like no matter how fast you actually archived an email that you saw on your phone,

00:10:45 ◼   ► like in the math of what your time is worth, you should add like an extra minute to that.

00:10:49 ◼   ► Like every time you touch an email, even if it's just for two seconds on your phone,

00:10:53 ◼   ► you actually have to add a minute.

00:10:56 ◼   ► So that's what I'm trying to think of here is sure, if you're archiving messages on your phone,

00:11:03 ◼   ► as you have for years, when you sit down to quote like really do email,

00:11:09 ◼   ► there's less to deal with then.

00:11:10 ◼   ► And so it feels like you've gained something, but I really think you've lost something.

00:11:16 ◼   ► I think you've lost more than you were realizing because you can just archive all of those messages

00:11:24 ◼   ► as you're sitting down to like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, just go through things.

00:11:27 ◼   ► And you can fire off your quick responses then.

00:11:29 ◼   ► I think like dealing with anything in the moment for you has like slowly creeped up in cost

00:11:39 ◼   ► over the years in a way that you just didn't realize as it was happening.

00:11:43 ◼   ► And that has now caused a bunch of frustrations for you.

00:11:46 ◼   ► That's kind of what I feel like might be one of the underlying things that's happening here.

00:11:52 ◼   ► I'm not sure if that's an encouraging or a discouraging sound.

00:11:54 ◼   ► No, I mean, like I agree with what you're saying, right?

00:11:58 ◼   ► Every time I look at my email inbox, I'm going back into the same thing where it's like, all right,

00:12:06 ◼   ► why don't I want notifications anymore?

00:12:09 ◼   ► Because I want to stop certain things from being able to control my attention

00:12:15 ◼   ► at any moment's notice.

00:12:17 ◼   ► And a different level of that is I open my inbox and who knows what's in there

00:12:22 ◼   ► and that might like throw me off.

00:12:24 ◼   ► But I do feel like those are distinct.

00:12:27 ◼   ► Yeah, they are distinct for sure.

00:12:29 ◼   ► I would love to feel confident that I could delete the email app from my iPhone.

00:12:35 ◼   ► I'm not confident right now that that is the most responsible thing to do.

00:12:41 ◼   ► What are your concerns around that?

00:12:43 ◼   ► Because I don't know what that life is.

00:12:45 ◼   ► One of the things that concerns me about turning off notifications

00:12:48 ◼   ► is that I end up checking my inbox more, right?

00:12:52 ◼   ► So this is like one thing that I'm concerned about.

00:12:54 ◼   ► That if I'm not pulled in to check email, that maybe I open my email app more

00:13:00 ◼   ► because I don't know what's in there.

00:13:01 ◼   ► It's like Pandora's email, you know?

00:13:02 ◼   ► And so if that was to happen, my concern would be, if we continue that line of thinking,

00:13:08 ◼   ► I grab my Mac at home more than I did before.

00:13:14 ◼   ► And that is a whole new world of like throwing me off kilter.

00:13:18 ◼   ► So if I've grabbed my Mac, then that's never going to be a quick thing.

00:13:22 ◼   ► There's always big stuff happening there.

00:13:24 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:13:25 ◼   ► It's like that's when I'm worried about that two-step thing.

00:13:28 ◼   ► I love the idea of just like no email on my iPhone.

00:13:32 ◼   ► Like what an incredible thought that is.

00:13:34 ◼   ► I don't know if I'm ready to make that step yet.

00:13:37 ◼   ► Like in the same way that I've had notifications on forever and that worked for me,

00:13:42 ◼   ► even though I don't recommend it for others,

00:13:44 ◼   ► I'm not sure that I could take those two steps at once.

00:13:49 ◼   ► And I don't know if I feel comfortable with it.

00:13:52 ◼   ► - I think one of the other things that's been on the back of my mind is,

00:13:56 ◼   ► I don't quite know how to articulate this,

00:13:58 ◼   ► but I'm sure you must have the same thing that I do like 100 times worse,

00:14:02 ◼   ► which is the variance of my email has gone way up in the sense of like,

00:14:09 ◼   ► "Oh, over the years the sheer number of messages has just done nothing but increase."

00:14:13 ◼   ► But also the difference in value between the most valuable email

00:14:20 ◼   ► that arrives any particular day and the least valuable email

00:14:23 ◼   ► that arrives at any particular day is like a million times more.

00:14:27 ◼   ► I was thinking about something the other day.

00:14:28 ◼   ► It kind of makes me think it's like the same phenomenon that's happened with physical mail,

00:14:32 ◼   ► just I think because of the way people use it differently.

00:14:35 ◼   ► It's like, "Oh, the average physical mail message is basically net negative in value to me."

00:14:43 ◼   ► But then randomly there are wildly important physical mail messages that come in.

00:14:49 ◼   ► And email is kind of in the same way.

00:14:51 ◼   ► The variance has just gone way, way up.

00:14:54 ◼   ► So I understand there is a real feeling and I have it too,

00:14:59 ◼   ► like, "Boy, if I miss something important, it's way bad."

00:15:03 ◼   ► But I just feel like I want to try to argue that that is more of a reason

00:15:09 ◼   ► why you should kind of have your head in the game of like,

00:15:14 ◼   ► what you're doing now is answering emails.

00:15:18 ◼   ► And if you are not ready to completely have your head in the game of like,

00:15:22 ◼   ► "I am answering emails now," then you shouldn't be dealing with it at all

00:15:26 ◼   ► because you have lots of other extremely high value tasks

00:15:32 ◼   ► that you could be working on.

00:15:34 ◼   ► And so I just feel like the checking activity or like the archiving activity is no good.

00:15:41 ◼   ► And it's just you doing to yourself what you're trying to have happen automatically

00:15:46 ◼   ► with like notifications of you're just doing to yourself like,

00:15:50 ◼   ► "Oh, I want to just like check on a thing."

00:15:51 ◼   ► But I'm worried that if I, let's say I delete my email from my iPhone

00:15:57 ◼   ► and I only do my email, say, at my Mac,

00:16:00 ◼   ► that is more time at my Mac than it would have been otherwise,

00:16:05 ◼   ► like dealing with the email.

00:16:06 ◼   ► - It will be.

00:16:06 ◼   ► - I don't know how much more time I have in my workday,

00:16:09 ◼   ► which is the thing we're going to get to later on.

00:16:11 ◼   ► And so for right now, I can deal with a bunch of email on the train, right?

00:16:16 ◼   ► I can commute in and I can get rid of a bunch of stuff.

00:16:18 ◼   ► I can just like noodle around in my email app and get rid of things.

00:16:23 ◼   ► And then that saves me time then when I get to the office

00:16:27 ◼   ► and I can sit down and do what other stuff I need to do.

00:16:31 ◼   ► If I'm only doing that work on my Mac,

00:16:34 ◼   ► then I'm going to be increasing the amount of work that I need to do on my Mac.

00:16:39 ◼   ► And I don't know if I have that time, but maybe it's not that much time.

00:16:44 ◼   ► - Okay, yeah.

00:16:45 ◼   ► So I think you bring up an interesting scenario here,

00:16:49 ◼   ► which is the I am commuting on a train scenario, right?

00:16:52 ◼   ► Which is like, "Oh, it's a very particular use case.

00:16:54 ◼   ► You don't want to be bringing your laptop."

00:16:56 ◼   ► - It's not a long enough commute for a laptop.

00:16:58 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's like you've got your phone with you, whatever.

00:17:01 ◼   ► So I'm going to posit that there is a hidden cost here that you are not considering,

00:17:05 ◼   ► which is still your mental state at the start of the day on your way into work,

00:17:13 ◼   ► which is highly valuable.

00:17:15 ◼   ► I think that really matters.

00:17:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, but if I get to the office and then I'm starting with the email,

00:17:22 ◼   ► it's the same thing.

00:17:23 ◼   ► I'm just like delaying it by 20 minutes.

00:17:26 ◼   ► Because I'm always going to start with the email, I feel like.

00:17:28 ◼   ► It's still going to dictate certain things that are going to happen in my day or my week.

00:17:32 ◼   ► It will be one of the first tasks that I would do each day.

00:17:35 ◼   ► - Should it be?

00:17:36 ◼   ► - I don't know yet.

00:17:38 ◼   ► Here's the thing.

00:17:39 ◼   ► We're going at the moment many levels down a hypothetical, right?

00:17:42 ◼   ► Like for me, I came onto a show, be like, "Should I just turn off my notifications?"

00:17:47 ◼   ► And now it's like, "Delete your email, then."

00:17:48 ◼   ► - No, listen.

00:17:49 ◼   ► But yeah, but Mike, it's like, I want to drill down to the bottom of this, right?

00:17:53 ◼   ► I want to get like, what's the real problem?

00:17:56 ◼   ► Like what's going on?

00:17:57 ◼   ► - No, I do feel like it would need to be one of the first things I do each day.

00:18:01 ◼   ► Because I do genuinely believe that I still, because I work with the amount of people that I do

00:18:06 ◼   ► and they need things from me, that I am making their lives harder

00:18:10 ◼   ► if there's something that they need that I haven't gotten them yet.

00:18:15 ◼   ► What I don't want is to like increase the amount of messages I'm getting from people saying like,

00:18:22 ◼   ► "Did you get that thing? Where's that thing? Can you check that thing?"

00:18:25 ◼   ► Because I've not been looking at my email.

00:18:27 ◼   ► And so in this scenario, yeah, let's imagine I take it off my iPhone.

00:18:32 ◼   ► I still think checking email is one of the first things I would do each workday.

00:18:37 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:18:39 ◼   ► - I actually think for me, that is fine.

00:18:42 ◼   ► That thought doesn't bother me at all because I'm in work mode.

00:18:46 ◼   ► Like things are going to be happening.

00:18:47 ◼   ► I've got the next task.

00:18:48 ◼   ► Like even if something annoys me, I'm still going to get to the next task.

00:18:52 ◼   ► Like I'm in work mode now.

00:18:53 ◼   ► Like there's things going on.

00:18:54 ◼   ► I have my day planned.

00:18:56 ◼   ► Like it's going to happen without.

00:18:58 ◼   ► And to me, checking the email would still be like, "Yep, that's like boot up task

00:19:04 ◼   ► that is setting me up for the workday.

00:19:06 ◼   ► I'm getting into work mode."

00:19:07 ◼   ► - I feel like the more you talk, just the less I'm convinced.

00:19:10 ◼   ► - But you've got to remember though that like go back to the idea of like,

00:19:14 ◼   ► "Why did you agree that I should have had notifications on?"

00:19:18 ◼   ► We do still work differently.

00:19:20 ◼   ► We still do have different responsibilities.

00:19:22 ◼   ► - Yeah, you need email like a million times more than I do.

00:19:24 ◼   ► 100%.

00:19:25 ◼   ► Like we still have things that are very different.

00:19:26 ◼   ► I just genuinely think that you are sort of struggling with,

00:19:30 ◼   ► "Your role has become more like mine over the years."

00:19:34 ◼   ► And that's part of what's happening here.

00:19:36 ◼   ► - No!

00:19:36 ◼   ► - Exactly.

00:19:38 ◼   ► Like I think that's what it is.

00:19:40 ◼   ► Now there's no version of this in which I'm like,

00:19:42 ◼   ► "Hey, Mike, you should have a morning like mine."

00:19:44 ◼   ► No, like I don't think so.

00:19:45 ◼   ► But what I am thinking is just, here is my fundamental problem with email as the first thing.

00:19:52 ◼   ► It is deciding that your day is other directed.

00:19:59 ◼   ► It is directed externally right from the start.

00:20:02 ◼   ► And I just think that your role is different enough now that that is not a good idea.

00:20:09 ◼   ► Now in my head, what I'm kind of thinking of is,

00:20:12 ◼   ► I would love for email to be like the second thing that you do in the day.

00:20:17 ◼   ► I'm not remotely saying like, "Oh, you shouldn't check email until it's 4 p.m.

00:20:20 ◼   ► "Just like wrap up some stuff."

00:20:22 ◼   ► No.

00:20:22 ◼   ► But I think there is an absolute world of difference that you are not appreciating

00:20:29 ◼   ► between doing email as the first thing and email as the second thing.

00:20:33 ◼   ► I don't think that's a small difference.

00:20:35 ◼   ► I think that's the biggest difference that there can be.

00:20:38 ◼   ► - Can you give me an example of first things?

00:20:40 ◼   ► - My thought for first tasks for you.

00:20:43 ◼   ► Here's like my dream scenario of like a thing that could be appreciated is like,

00:20:48 ◼   ► you are on the train and you're not looking at your phone and you're like heading into work.

00:20:55 ◼   ► And what naturally happens is like, you just sort of start thinking about like,

00:21:00 ◼   ► "Oh, what are things I need to do?" or whatever.

00:21:02 ◼   ► And on the train, you can have an idea about something with like

00:21:08 ◼   ► a design for one of the Cortex brand products.

00:21:11 ◼   ► Like a thing just pops into your head.

00:21:12 ◼   ► This is like the space for boredom.

00:21:13 ◼   ► Like just a little bit of thinking space that I think is really good and like

00:21:18 ◼   ► incredibly undervalued at the start of a day.

00:21:21 ◼   ► And so you would get into your office and maybe just like toy around with something

00:21:29 ◼   ► that you thought on the train for like an hour.

00:21:32 ◼   ► And then as like the moment as often happens, you feel like,

00:21:35 ◼   ► "Okay, I'm kind of like done with this."

00:21:37 ◼   ► Then you go to email, right?

00:21:39 ◼   ► That's like my dream scenario for you.

00:21:42 ◼   ► - That's my dream, man.

00:21:43 ◼   ► Let me tell you right now, like, yes, I agree.

00:21:46 ◼   ► Like I love all the thought of like, "Oh, it's Monday morning."

00:21:49 ◼   ► And the first thing I'm doing is the most important thing I do on a Monday,

00:21:52 ◼   ► getting upgrade ready.

00:21:54 ◼   ► - Right.

00:21:55 ◼   ► So the reason it's my dream scenario is it's the scenario that benefits me the most, right?

00:21:58 ◼   ► But down from my dream scenario, scenario two is exactly that.

00:22:07 ◼   ► I again think there is a world of difference in you're on the train, it's Monday morning,

00:22:14 ◼   ► it's like upgrade game time, and you are thinking a little bit about the upcoming show,

00:22:19 ◼   ► like on the way into work.

00:22:21 ◼   ► And then the first thing that you do when you get there is you start arranging all of the stuff

00:22:26 ◼   ► that you want to do for upgrade.

00:22:27 ◼   ► You start like processing, you know, like all of the articles,

00:22:31 ◼   ► putting together show notes, like doing all of your preparations.

00:22:34 ◼   ► And then when you are done with that, then you go to email and you work on your email then.

00:22:40 ◼   ► I think you are not appreciating how huge of a deal this really is.

00:22:46 ◼   ► You're like sacrificing true value on an altar of pseudo-productivity.

00:22:53 ◼   ► That is what's occurring when you're triaging your email on your phone on the way into work.

00:22:58 ◼   ► - Let's put that one on a t-shirt, you know what I mean?

00:23:01 ◼   ► - Woo, look, it's also my dream.

00:23:04 ◼   ► - Very achievable dream.

00:23:05 ◼   ► - No, but dreams are scary sometimes, right?

00:23:08 ◼   ► And like, I never want to let anyone down.

00:23:10 ◼   ► - I completely understand that, yeah.

00:23:12 ◼   ► - I feel like you know that about me, like it's something that I really try and take value in,

00:23:18 ◼   ► in making sure that the people that I work with have what they need.

00:23:21 ◼   ► I never want to be an imposition to someone, right?

00:23:24 ◼   ► Like I don't want to be the reason that they're waiting on something or whatever.

00:23:29 ◼   ► But I also have the time zone advantage.

00:23:32 ◼   ► - I was gonna say, Mike, like please,

00:23:34 ◼   ► we live in the greatest city on Earth in the greatest time zone on Earth.

00:23:38 ◼   ► - Yeah, we do, baby.

00:23:39 ◼   ► - It is a huge advantage, right?

00:23:42 ◼   ► But it really is.

00:23:44 ◼   ► I am so glad for this all the time because it makes this much easier.

00:23:50 ◼   ► Everyone I work with is in like earlier time zones than me,

00:23:52 ◼   ► so like I am up first and that makes such a huge difference.

00:23:58 ◼   ► And that's what you have as well.

00:24:00 ◼   ► Now, you're a much more international audience than I am, right?

00:24:03 ◼   ► For the people that you work with.

00:24:04 ◼   ► But still, the bulk of it is the same thing.

00:24:08 ◼   ► Like most people you're working with are in America.

00:24:10 ◼   ► So let's just imagine we're blocking off like the first two hours of the day,

00:24:17 ◼   ► by which I mean like the moment you leave your front door, that's when the timer starts.

00:24:22 ◼   ► We're including your commute in like first two hours.

00:24:26 ◼   ► That two hour time difference, I think there is basically nothing that can happen

00:24:32 ◼   ► within that two hour delay where that time matters.

00:24:38 ◼   ► That is more valuable than you actually doing the thing that matters most

00:24:44 ◼   ► to whatever is the most important thing you're going to do in the day.

00:24:47 ◼   ► That's why I was trying to talk about like the opportunity cost of your time here.

00:24:51 ◼   ► You have to really think about how much your time is worth.

00:24:57 ◼   ► And so this is why it's like, what can possibly happen in that first two hour window

00:25:03 ◼   ► where it matters and how much is that going to cost versus, I mean, as happens to you sometimes,

00:25:11 ◼   ► you're just walking along and you think of the sidekick notepad and it's like,

00:25:16 ◼   ► that is the next two years of our business and hugely important.

00:25:20 ◼   ► Like this super matters and like nothing that can happen in email during that time

00:25:25 ◼   ► can possibly outweigh that now.

00:25:27 ◼   ► That didn't used to be true for you.

00:25:30 ◼   ► It used to be true that like getting into that email and replying and archiving

00:25:34 ◼   ► like was the most important thing.

00:25:37 ◼   ► It really mattered, but you are not that guy anymore.

00:25:41 ◼   ► And like waiting two hours is not a problem.

00:25:44 ◼   ► Yeah, like I was saying in the help me help you scenario,

00:25:49 ◼   ► we for Cortex brand do work with people in the UK and Europe, but yeah,

00:25:53 ◼   ► the majority of stuff that we're doing when it comes to manufacture,

00:25:58 ◼   ► an extra two hours usually isn't a difference because nothing ever happens on the same day.

00:26:03 ◼   ► Everything that we're doing at Cortex brand is on the scale of months, right?

00:26:06 ◼   ► Like two hours never matters.

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00:28:29 ◼   ► Let me actually now, we're going to come back to email.

00:28:33 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:28:33 ◼   ► - But because you mentioned the time zone thing, I want to jump to notifications.

00:28:37 ◼   ► - Well, I mean, it does feel like this is all one big ball, but yes, let's go to notifications.

00:28:41 ◼   ► - These two are quite linked in this way because the time zone benefit in the morning is great.

00:28:47 ◼   ► It's also biting me in the evening because everybody else's days are shifted that I'm

00:28:55 ◼   ► working with in America, which means that they're still very much in their work day when I'm very

00:28:59 ◼   ► much not. And this is like a second thing where I am starting to become more frustrated with

00:29:06 ◼   ► things that are required of me in the evening or just work things that are coming my way

00:29:13 ◼   ► via notifications in the evening, which most of the time I will say could wait, right?

00:29:18 ◼   ► And that's what I want to try and work on. Like, how do I tune my notifications better

00:29:26 ◼   ► to see less of this stuff? Like I'm becoming much more particular about my work-life balance,

00:29:34 ◼   ► all thanks to the year of the weekend where I actually started to value my work-life balance.

00:29:38 ◼   ► And so now, like, I believe that it is better for me to have less stuff intruding, but I feel like

00:29:46 ◼   ► I don't have a sense of what the exact things that I should do should be. The one that I can think of

00:29:52 ◼   ► is to set a do not disturb in Slack. I think the way it works in Slack is it doesn't send

00:30:01 ◼   ► notifications at all. I don't use that, but that's my understanding. If you set do not disturb in

00:30:06 ◼   ► Slack, the app is sending no notifications. I don't know what happens when you come out. I

00:30:11 ◼   ► presume it just sends you everything that was waiting. But I don't think it does do that,

00:30:14 ◼   ► actually. I think it's just like when the do not disturb is off, you'll start getting notifications

00:30:17 ◼   ► again. But when you open the app, everything that was sent to you while you're in do not disturb is

00:30:21 ◼   ► just waiting for you there. And what I do like about Slack in this regard is, well, one, it's

00:30:27 ◼   ► doing that, so it's not sending anything, but also someone can break through, which is helpful for me.

00:30:31 ◼   ► That would make me feel better knowing that, like, if there's something I need to know,

00:30:36 ◼   ► whoever it is can see I have do not disturb on and they can be like notify me. I like that feature.

00:30:42 ◼   ► So I think I'm going to do that. I need to choose what the time is, which is a weird one for me.

00:30:47 ◼   ► >> Why is that a weird one? Like that -- >> Well, about two or three at least days

00:30:53 ◼   ► a week. I'm still working at 8 p.m. where naturally it would be like, oh, like, 5, 6 o'clock

00:30:59 ◼   ► is what most people would set. Like maybe it's 7 or 8 for me. And like you would say, like,

00:31:05 ◼   ► oh, focus modes will handle this for you. And like maybe -- but what I don't like about focus modes

00:31:10 ◼   ► is a thing that we spoke about before, which is you can still see the notifications.

00:31:14 ◼   ► >> Yeah, so you're running into the same frustration that I have.

00:31:17 ◼   ► >> Because I have a weekend one that I like the weekend focus mode that I have. But then sometimes

00:31:22 ◼   ► I see that I still have the email. I still see the email. It's like, oh, I don't want to know it's

00:31:27 ◼   ► there. >> There's like a weird perverse satisfaction I have here of like most people just don't

00:31:32 ◼   ► understand what the problem is. But now I feel like I've almost infected a friend with like now

00:31:37 ◼   ► you understand what the problem is. Like I just don't want to even know that it's there.

00:31:41 ◼   ► >> Yeah, like just tell me later on. Like I don't want -- like so in case people don't know,

00:31:45 ◼   ► in a focus mode if you exclude apps from it, they don't show up on the lock screen. But when

00:31:51 ◼   ► you go into notifications, enter it like collects them all up. But the problem is not only does it

00:31:56 ◼   ► collect them up, it gives you a little bit of a preview too. It's like, no, this is not what I

00:32:00 ◼   ► want. Why are you doing this? >> Yeah, so this is something that,

00:32:05 ◼   ► it's sort of a fundamentally unsolvable problem with like the way you want notifications to be

00:32:09 ◼   ► handled. Because really like what's happening with notifications is you really want to tell your

00:32:14 ◼   ► phone like read my mind and just know when I want to know something and know when I don't want to

00:32:20 ◼   ► know something. So as someone who has spent many years and many, many hours trying to tweak this

00:32:26 ◼   ► to be perfection, like it just never can be. And one thing that I've been trying to do that I

00:32:32 ◼   ► think is helpful is realizing that notification center is basically never the tool that I want

00:32:41 ◼   ► for the job and trying to frame things a little bit differently. So one thing I've been trying

00:32:47 ◼   ► to make more and more use of is I forget exactly what it's called, but iOS has the feature that's

00:32:52 ◼   ► called like scheduled delivery, where it holds up the messages and then delivers them all at once

00:32:59 ◼   ► at a time of your choosing. So that's something that I'm trying to think about for more and more

00:33:04 ◼   ► apps is like, can I just tell everything to arrive in one scheduled delivery at like 2 p.m. every day

00:33:12 ◼   ► and just like you collect up all the notifications and I will see them then. And that does keep them

00:33:17 ◼   ► out of notification center, like they don't go into notification center. Or the other alternative is

00:33:23 ◼   ► basically I'm trying to turn off notification center for everything that I can think of now.

00:33:28 ◼   ► The other option is like, look, notification center didn't used to exist. We used to just have badges

00:33:34 ◼   ► on the apps. And like, actually, that's like the solution that I want most of the time. Because the

00:33:39 ◼   ► nice thing about focus modes is focus modes can hide badges so that you don't see that like, oh,

00:33:45 ◼   ► you've got three messages in email that's important to you. But in the correct focus mode,

00:33:50 ◼   ► it's like, oh, no, badges are allowed. And now you can see that there's messages there.

00:33:54 ◼   ► So there's two things to think about. But it's like, I think I've realized my frustration has

00:33:59 ◼   ► come from a thing where it's like, oh, Apple created this tool called notification center.

00:34:04 ◼   ► And I've always just used it because it's on by default without ever really thinking through,

00:34:11 ◼   ► if I was designing the phone from scratch, would I want this as a feature? And the answer is no,

00:34:16 ◼   ► like it's very hard for me to even imagine why I would want this here really. It's like the thing

00:34:22 ◼   ► that I'm trying to achieve, depending on an app can usually be achieved through some combination

00:34:27 ◼   ► of like, it's the badge, it's the scheduled delivery, or it is the like lock screen slash

00:34:33 ◼   ► home screen notification with or without preview, like tweaking those things is usually what I'm

00:34:39 ◼   ► looking for. So we've scheduled delivery. Talk me through what scheduled delivery looks like for you.

00:34:45 ◼   ► Because this feature I always found kind of weird and strange. It's like, what are you having it do?

00:34:50 ◼   ► And what does it look like when it happens? The scheduled delivery is this thing that will appear

00:34:57 ◼   ► in notification center, you can think of it as a subset of notification center. So if you in

00:35:02 ◼   ► settings tell an app that it is to use scheduled delivery, I think basically what's happening is

00:35:09 ◼   ► that as far as the app is concerned, it's still sending you notifications. But iOS just completely

00:35:16 ◼   ► hides the existence of those notifications in totality. Like they just they are not in the

00:35:21 ◼   ► system at all. iOS is just holding on to those notifications, and gives them to you all at once

00:35:29 ◼   ► at the time of your choosing. And so what you get is a thing that will be called like, oh,

00:35:33 ◼   ► your afternoon summary or your morning summary, which is basically a notification center inside

00:35:41 ◼   ► notification center of everything that has happened since the last scheduled delivery.

00:35:47 ◼   ► That's how that works. So basically, you're able to say like, app x can only reach me at

00:35:55 ◼   ► a time of my choosing, and otherwise I am to never hear from it. And you can have multiple time slots

00:36:02 ◼   ► for these scheduled deliveries. So you can say like, oh, four times a day, this app can get in

00:36:07 ◼   ► touch. But otherwise, I never want to hear from it. That's how scheduled delivery works.

00:36:11 ◼   ► But then when you get it, say you have like a bunch of notifications coming at once,

00:36:17 ◼   ► is it clear? Because I remember seeing screenshots of it. And it seemed like,

00:36:20 ◼   ► almost like they were trying to lay out a magazine or something, the layout I found really

00:36:25 ◼   ► peculiar. Yeah, it just looks like notification center. So I actually I have my slack on this

00:36:30 ◼   ► of like, just once a day, send me everything like slack, just be quiet. And it appears in my

00:36:35 ◼   ► scheduled delivery. And it just looks like, oh, here's all the messages that went to you from

00:36:40 ◼   ► slack in the previous 24 hours. That's what happens. Just like the regular notifications,

00:36:46 ◼   ► you can click on any one of them. And it will just take you straight to that conversation in slack.

00:36:50 ◼   ► And you can clear them individually, just like you would a notification center. I don't know if this

00:36:54 ◼   ► is what you want. But I am flagging it as I think this is an underappreciated tool that can be the

00:37:01 ◼   ► right answer for certain things. I'm intrigued by it. But I do think that just if we remove email

00:37:09 ◼   ► notifications completely one way or another, and I put the slack do not disturb, I think it would

00:37:15 ◼   ► actually just solve the vast majority of the things that I would want. Yeah, I mean, slack

00:37:21 ◼   ► do not disturb sounds like for you the clear thing to do like that communication tool itself has an

00:37:26 ◼   ► inbuilt tool to like try to address what you're dealing with here. Yeah. And what I might do too,

00:37:31 ◼   ► is like I have a weekend focus mode, I may just extend that to my home focus mode or something

00:37:37 ◼   ► like that. I'm going to look into that too. It's just for me, I'm not sure I need that much control

00:37:44 ◼   ► over the other notifications that I get because I don't think again, I will pay attention to it,

00:37:50 ◼   ► but I'm not sure that I have other work stuff and that's what I'm trying to get rid of. Like,

00:37:54 ◼   ► it doesn't bother me if the fitness app is telling me something or it doesn't bother me if my to do

00:38:02 ◼   ► app is telling me something because if I've set that, well, is the reason I set it for that time,

00:38:07 ◼   ► you know what I mean? Like for me. Yeah. For me, the to do app is the only app that I think is

00:38:11 ◼   ► approved in every single focus mode because that is like a very different kind of exception of like,

00:38:16 ◼   ► I have told me that I want to be alerted to a thing at a certain time. Like for me,

00:38:21 ◼   ► reminders and OmniFocus have like a total access at all times in all focus modes to set up an alert.

00:38:28 ◼   ► Like if I look at the other stuff I've got, like if it's iMessage or that's still on that to come

00:38:33 ◼   ► through because again, like I put a bunch of iMessage threads on mute anyway, like the chatty

00:38:38 ◼   ► ones. So I'm fine with that. So I actually think I do a decent job of, it really seems like the

00:38:43 ◼   ► stuff that I want to get rid of is the work stuff and I think I may have that handled. But yeah,

00:38:49 ◼   ► I just wanted to talk to you because I think that Slack do not disturb feature is kind of what I'm

00:38:54 ◼   ► looking for, I think. Because I do think like, I don't want to put the onus on the people that

00:39:00 ◼   ► I work with, right? Like if they're in their workday, they shouldn't not send me stuff.

00:39:05 ◼   ► Right. But what I want everyone to understand and I think they'll get that just from seeing

00:39:10 ◼   ► the stuff is like, I've chosen not to be working right now. So like, I'll get back to you and I'm

00:39:15 ◼   ► back in work mode. And I feel like that is the thing that everyone can respect.

00:39:20 ◼   ► Yeah. I mean, Mike, in my role as a therapist, which is so good at, by the way,

00:39:25 ◼   ► what healthy relationships need are healthy boundaries. And without boundaries, it's no good.

00:39:32 ◼   ► And so, yeah, you too, Mike, get to have a time where you say like, I'm not working today. And

00:39:39 ◼   ► yes, like I understand the time zone thing of like, people are messaging you later in the day.

00:39:43 ◼   ► Like I have the exact same thing of like, when I am feeling like it is bedtime is often like,

00:39:49 ◼   ► right in the productive swing of people in America. But that's fine. Because again, it is the

00:39:55 ◼   ► sure, I could theoretically unblock some stuff right now as someone is working. But it is just

00:40:04 ◼   ► fundamentally not as important as having mental space, which is the no, I'm at home watching a

00:40:12 ◼   ► movie with my wife mental space. And the time delay is fine. Like everyone has this, this

00:40:22 ◼   ► feeling like someone has messaged me and I need to get back to them right now. But also, other people

00:40:28 ◼   ► have other things to do. Like, it's easy to overvalue how absolutely vital it is for you to

00:40:34 ◼   ► get back to this person now. So yeah, like, you should just have a clear cutoff in your mind for

00:40:41 ◼   ► at what time in the evening is it no longer acceptable to get work notifications. And

00:40:48 ◼   ► just set that and people will quickly adapt and learn like, I mean, this is the thing like,

00:40:53 ◼   ► when you were going to school, and I was sending you messages and getting no replies, because

00:40:58 ◼   ► you couldn't even get those messages that I was appalled on day one. Very quickly, even I too

00:41:04 ◼   ► adapted to like, Oh, Mike will get stuff back to me later. Or like, I think even in me over a very

00:41:10 ◼   ► short period of time, it caused a slight behavior change of even sending you less stuff. So I think

00:41:16 ◼   ► it's good for you to have clear boundaries of like, Oh, no, after eight or 9pm, or whatever it

00:41:23 ◼   ► is, Mike is just not around. And as long as you're consistent about it, as long as it's a pattern

00:41:29 ◼   ► that either people can pick up on, or you can just be very explicit about, I don't think there's any

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00:42:52 ◼   ► and Relay FM.

00:42:54 ◼   ► All right, I would like to review my action items so far.

00:42:57 ◼   ► Okay.

00:42:58 ◼   ► These are the things that I'm going to do. Slack do not disturb on the relay slack and the

00:43:04 ◼   ► Cortex slack. And maybe I'm going to do like 7 p.m. to start with, I think.

00:43:10 ◼   ► Ooh, bold.

00:43:11 ◼   ► Look into scheduled delivery. Although I don't think I need it, but I want to play around with

00:43:15 ◼   ► it because I haven't played around with it because when it was first announced, like,

00:43:18 ◼   ► I don't need that. But maybe now I do.

00:43:19 ◼   ► Yeah, just check it out just to be aware of it as a tool.

00:43:22 ◼   ► I'm going to put all of my email accounts into Spark. I'm going to turn off notifications

00:43:29 ◼   ► for the Gmail app, but not delete the Gmail app because people want to log in sometimes

00:43:36 ◼   ► and it's just like a whole thing.

00:43:38 ◼   ► Okay.

00:43:38 ◼   ► And I'm going to delete Spark from my iPhone.

00:43:41 ◼   ► Wow. Okay.

00:43:42 ◼   ► I'm going to try it.

00:43:43 ◼   ► Great. Great.

00:43:45 ◼   ► And I'm going to turn off email notifications on my iPad, but I'm going to leave Spark on

00:43:51 ◼   ► my iPad.

00:43:53 ◼   ► Okay.

00:43:53 ◼   ► Because if I'm going to do some work at home, I'm only going to do that on my iPad. And

00:43:57 ◼   ► this will allow me to do some stuff without getting my Mac. Because I feel like that there

00:44:03 ◼   ► is another step there where I could like maybe I'm going to do some work or grab my iPad

00:44:08 ◼   ► dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, rather than go and grab my Mac, which will drag me in way more

00:44:12 ◼   ► than my iPad will. But that one is like a let's see though, because if I find I'm just

00:44:17 ◼   ► checking my email a bunch when I'm at home on my iPad, then no, that's going to go too.

00:44:21 ◼   ► That's where I am so far. Now the thing about like when I check like we both agree it should

00:44:28 ◼   ► not be the first thing I do when I get to the office.

00:44:31 ◼   ► Correct.

00:44:31 ◼   ► I agree with you. I just can't promise that at least to start.

00:44:37 ◼   ► Okay.

00:44:38 ◼   ► But it is my goal. Like maybe it'll be easy because like I just don't really want to do

00:44:42 ◼   ► my email. So maybe it won't be that hard. I don't know. Maybe I'll be looking for

00:44:47 ◼   ► things to do before I can get the email.

00:44:49 ◼   ► Okay. Here's an action item, which is a little bit of a, like a mental shift, but I'm trying

00:44:54 ◼   ► to give you like little steps here. Right. So both for your commute and like when you

00:44:59 ◼   ► arrive at the office, you can start with a baby step of no email for 20 minutes. Like

00:45:06 ◼   ► that's all it has to be. Right. You just can't check your email for the first 20 minutes.

00:45:10 ◼   ► You got to do something else. But I think more importantly, cause like there's this

00:45:14 ◼   ► thing that you're worried about, which is about like checking the email on the iPad

00:45:18 ◼   ► at home a bunch. I think something that you should have in mind is if you're going to

00:45:23 ◼   ► check email at home, you have to be able to answer yes to the question. Do I have 20 minutes

00:45:31 ◼   ► right now unbroken to deal with email?

00:45:33 ◼   ► That's good. Yeah.

00:45:34 ◼   ► Like if you can answer yes to that question, then there's no problem here. Like do you

00:45:38 ◼   ► have 20 minutes to work on this? If there's something in here that needs your attention,

00:45:42 ◼   ► great, then you can check it. But if you don't, then you're just in that loop of like checking

00:45:48 ◼   ► to check. What you're doing is you're checking to soothe yourself is really what you're doing.

00:45:53 ◼   ► Yeah. That's what I don't want for sure.

00:45:55 ◼   ► And checking to soothe yourself is real bad. Like everyone does it, but it's very bad.

00:45:59 ◼   ► Cause my main concern about turning off notifications is like, does that mean I'm just

00:46:04 ◼   ► checking my email more? Because like I'm not getting the notifications. So do I keep checking

00:46:08 ◼   ► the inbox? Like the only way for me to reduce this notification thing is I can't have email

00:46:13 ◼   ► on my phone at all. Because if I'm going to turn off the notifications, I know myself,

00:46:18 ◼   ► I will be opening my email inbox more than I did before.

00:46:21 ◼   ► Right. Right. Of course.

00:46:22 ◼   ► And so the only way to stop myself from doing that is I got to cut it off. I got to cut

00:46:26 ◼   ► it off at the source. It's going to go. It's basically impossible to not have email on

00:46:31 ◼   ► my phone at all, but I'm just not going to have the app that I use. Right? Like the mail

00:46:36 ◼   ► app, it's like, it's doing its thing out there, the Apple mail app. And my accounts

00:46:40 ◼   ► are just signed in and it's just like, whatever, but I'm not going to look at it cause I hate

00:46:44 ◼   ► that app anyway. I feel like it is too complicated, more complicated than I want to be like turning

00:46:50 ◼   ► off the ability for my phone to get email. But I think that's fine. Like I'm not worried

00:46:56 ◼   ► about that for me.

00:46:57 ◼   ► There's various times in various ways I have tried to disable a bunch of stuff and I have

00:47:02 ◼   ► come to the conclusion that in most scenarios, zero ability to do thing on your phone is

00:47:10 ◼   ► not the correct number because like you do have these events that just cause a massive

00:47:15 ◼   ► pain in the butt if you can't.

00:47:16 ◼   ► Yeah. Like I just thought of one, two factor codes by email.

00:47:19 ◼   ► Yeah. Two factor codes by email is one of those things.

00:47:22 ◼   ► So I need to have the mail app there so I can grab those. Cause look, there are accounts

00:47:28 ◼   ► that I have for things where they don't have passwords. Like the only way to sign in is

00:47:32 ◼   ► to sign in through a mail app. Like I don't want that to be the case. I think honestly,

00:47:36 ◼   ► passwordless login, I hate it.

00:47:38 ◼   ► I hate it too. Yeah.

00:47:39 ◼   ► It's very frustrating. And everyone that's like, oh, it's so great.

00:47:42 ◼   ► It's so secure. No, you're just passing the security to somebody else. Like you're

00:47:46 ◼   ► not doing your job in my opinion.

00:47:48 ◼   ► Yeah. I'll give you a very strange two factor thing that I read into. So again, like I don't

00:47:53 ◼   ► do email on my phone. I was like, oh, I have access to a thing. I ran into the weirdest

00:47:57 ◼   ► two factor thing, which is I had to renew my driver's license while I was in North Carolina.

00:48:03 ◼   ► And.

00:48:04 ◼   ► Your American driver's license.

00:48:06 ◼   ► Yeah. And while I was doing that, in order for a certain step of the procedure to proceed,

00:48:12 ◼   ► I needed to give them a code that they sent to my email. And it was like such a strange

00:48:19 ◼   ► verification process. Like I'm here with my passport and like all of my documentation

00:48:25 ◼   ► and my driver's license. And the lady's like, we've emailed you a six digit number

00:48:31 ◼   ► at your email address. And like, you cannot proceed until you give me that number.

00:48:35 ◼   ► Was wild.

00:48:36 ◼   ► When did it happen that email became like the most important and secure thing that everybody

00:48:41 ◼   ► has in their lives when people are getting their emails hacked all the time? Like, well,

00:48:46 ◼   ► when did these two things come together and we're happy with that? You know?

00:48:49 ◼   ► Yeah, it's crazy. But that's another case of like, there are enough edge cases where

00:48:55 ◼   ► zero access is just more of a problem. Like if I hadn't been able to give that lady that code,

00:49:01 ◼   ► it would have cost me weeks of setup and like getting an appointment at the DMV for like to

00:49:06 ◼   ► be like, oh, well, I don't do that because I'm so busy. I actually don't have email on my phone,

00:49:11 ◼   ► lady. It's like no one wants to hear that. Right. Like then you're just a weirdo.

00:49:14 ◼   ► This might actually like increase my adoption of pass keys.

00:49:19 ◼   ► Oh, yes. Yes. Well, that's a whole other thing.

00:49:21 ◼   ► Like I've ignored them so far because I'm kind of like, this is a new technology and I don't

00:49:27 ◼   ► want to start just like giving up passwords for a problem that I can't yet foresee. But you know,

00:49:33 ◼   ► this is a way of just using like the face ID on my iPhone as the two factor rather than

00:49:37 ◼   ► a code or whatever. So maybe there'll be some things that like if they have pass keys and

00:49:43 ◼   ► they're otherwise going to send me an email, I'll be like, all right, go set up a pass key.

00:49:46 ◼   ► Yeah. Yeah. Maybe. Even though I'm just not convinced about how well that technology works.

00:49:51 ◼   ► Yeah. Yeah. I too have put this in the bucket of like, I'm going to give this a couple of years and

00:49:55 ◼   ► then we'll see where we are. So the pass key stuff is different. Yeah. It's like when two factor was

00:50:00 ◼   ► introduced, it was complicated, but now it's like super simple. Yeah. Like I have most of my two

00:50:05 ◼   ► factor, like in my one password. So when I click on the thing to log in one pass, so it just fills

00:50:09 ◼   ► the two factor code. Like it's like really easy. Right. And I know one pass could somehow do

00:50:14 ◼   ► something with pass. I'm just not bothering yet. I'm like going to give it a little bit more time,

00:50:19 ◼   ► but I see the thought about it. Right. Like if all of our devices have a biometric authentication

00:50:23 ◼   ► method, that is 100% the best way to do it than getting a code out of an email account.

00:50:28 ◼   ► Yeah. But I mean like, I'm not going to hold my breath on the DMV setting up a pass key system

00:50:35 ◼   ► anytime soon. Well, but the thing is though, like there is a genuine benefit to these organizations

00:50:40 ◼   ► because then they don't have to worry about the servers getting hacked. Yeah, for sure.

00:50:44 ◼   ► Because it's no longer their problem anymore. So I actually do imagine this to be more readily

00:50:49 ◼   ► adopted by more organizations because it's an easy step for them to take and have to not worry about

00:50:55 ◼   ► a bunch of all this stuff that they had to do. Yeah, true. All of that is just to say, I agree

00:51:01 ◼   ► with you that you need to have access, but you want to have access in such a way where it is

00:51:07 ◼   ► very clear you are never going to attempt to use this tool. It is just there for these kind of edge

00:51:13 ◼   ► cases of like, Oh, I got an email that I'd from a thing for something I'm doing right now and I just

00:51:18 ◼   ► need to be able to like click a confirmation link to get a thing. Like that's just the way the world

00:51:23 ◼   ► is and totally deleting email is just impractical. And in the same way that I tried many times that

00:51:30 ◼   ► eventually gave up on, you can disable the Safari browser entirely on your phone, which in my ideal

00:51:37 ◼   ► world, I would like to not have the browser on my phone, but it's the same thing of like, there's

00:51:41 ◼   ► just too many things that require the browser as like, I just have to give up this dream of my phone

00:51:49 ◼   ► has no email and has no browser is what I actually want. But it's like, I don't know. That's like

00:51:54 ◼   ► dreaming to live in a world where I don't need the phone at all. That's what I'm really dreaming

00:51:59 ◼   ► of there. You know, I've had someone suggested this to me ages ago and it's been on my mind

00:52:05 ◼   ► recently and I don't like it. The work phone. I don't remember what it was, but it was a

00:52:11 ◼   ► conversation we were having on this show and I think I was talking about all of these kinds of

00:52:16 ◼   ► things, but like differently. And they were just like, well, this could be solved if you just had

00:52:20 ◼   ► a work phone on a personal phone. And like the idea is so good. Just it's simple, right? Like

00:52:26 ◼   ► it's simple in the sense of like, well, there just isn't Slack on my personal phone. There is

00:52:31 ◼   ► something to be said for it. The problem is I don't want to carry two phones. I do not want two

00:52:36 ◼   ► phones. Like I don't under any circumstances want a second phone that I ever have to take anywhere.

00:52:43 ◼   ► Like that's the thing. So what I'm trying to do now is like get all of the benefits of what that

00:52:50 ◼   ► would be, I suppose, by like deciding the devices that have access to things, the devices that don't,

00:52:57 ◼   ► and then also implementing software tricks where I can. I think the whole idea of like the work

00:53:03 ◼   ► phone, personal phone thing that made more sense the further back in time you go from the creation

00:53:08 ◼   ► of the iPhone as much as people ever made fun of it. But I really do think like with the introduction

00:53:14 ◼   ► of focus modes, it's like you can get 80% of the way there through software. And I just think now

00:53:21 ◼   ► it is not worth doing the work phone, personal phone thing because it also introduces like a

00:53:27 ◼   ► whole bunch of other problems. Like even just trying to manage two different accounts. Like it

00:53:32 ◼   ► just, I strongly advise against that. And yes, two phones is such a pain.

00:53:37 ◼   ► Look, I've got to assume based on what this show is, that there are people inside of Apple that

00:53:44 ◼   ► work on the focus mode project that listen to this show. Like I've just got to naturally assume

00:53:49 ◼   ► that that is a possibility. If that's the case and you work on the focus mode project, focus modes

00:53:57 ◼   ► would be made so much better if I had the ability to turn off the preview of stuff that was waiting

00:54:01 ◼   ► for me. If I was able to turn off that entire little category that says like, while you were in

00:54:07 ◼   ► weekend focused and you can tap it and see this list of stuff that's being held, like I understand

00:54:13 ◼   ► why that's there. I get it. I completely understand. It makes a lot of sense for these kinds of things.

00:54:18 ◼   ► Like if you've got a two factor code in Gmail, right? Like all that stuff it's there in case you

00:54:22 ◼   ► need it. I would like to turn that off. Give me a setting. Focus mode is full of settings, which

00:54:28 ◼   ► are great. Like the longer it has gone on, the more settings it has gotten, the more complicated it has

00:54:33 ◼   ► gotten. But this is one of those things where I'm happy that somebody inside of Apple is like, you

00:54:38 ◼   ► know what? We have to add complication to the system to make it worthwhile. And it has gotten

00:54:43 ◼   ► better and better over the time. I would like this feature now, please, if you wouldn't mind adding

00:54:47 ◼   ► it. I think it would make focus modes even better than they already are as a system.

00:54:51 ◼   ► - I would also say if those engineers are listening, one, thank you because focus modes

00:54:55 ◼   ► are much more than I feel like I could have ever reasonably expected Apple to implement. Like

00:55:00 ◼   ► they really are so game changing. - It's a great system.

00:55:03 ◼   ► - It is. But I'm with Mike. Like my number one request would be that thing of like, I just,

00:55:09 ◼   ► to me, the whole point of the focus mode is I don't want to know. And so it is frustrating to have this

00:55:16 ◼   ► little thing here, which is like, oh, hey, while you're in this mode, like here's the stuff that

00:55:21 ◼   ► happens. Like just give me the option to make that go away. I just don't want to see it.

00:55:26 ◼   ► - No preview. - Yeah. Like I'm in weekend mode.

00:55:29 ◼   ► I don't want to know that while I was here, a bunch of work stuff was piling up. It's like the

00:55:34 ◼   ► whole point is to like, no, it's weekend mode. Like I'm just hanging out and having a good time.

00:55:40 ◼   ► And I don't even want to be tempted by like, oh, what was that message about that thing? No,

00:55:45 ◼   ► don't want to see it. - Yeah. Like I'm in my podcast

00:55:47 ◼   ► Recording Focus right now. And I've got like, while you're in Recording Focus, here's some

00:55:51 ◼   ► tasks from Todoist, here's some HomeKit notifications, here's a notification from the

00:55:55 ◼   ► Formula One app. Like I just don't want them. Like I just don't want that to be there. It only sits

00:56:01 ◼   ► in the notification center portion, I know, but habits, they're hard to break.

00:56:06 ◼   ► - I'm with you totally. I don't want Mike distracted while he's recording a podcast

00:56:10 ◼   ► and being like, oh, what happened in Formula One? Like it just pulls your mind in a way that is

00:56:14 ◼   ► contrary to the literal word focus, right? Like it's a focus mode. You shouldn't have a place

00:56:21 ◼   ► in the back of your brain, it knows, if I just like quickly tap my screen, I can just see if

00:56:26 ◼   ► like anything did happen. It's like, no, no, take that option away because this is the focus mode

00:56:32 ◼   ► to focus on what you're doing. - I feel like I know the answer

00:56:35 ◼   ► to this question, but I should turn off notifications on my Mac for email too, right?

00:56:39 ◼   ► - I mean, I would suggest so. I have a quality of life improvement for me,

00:56:44 ◼   ► which is I made a decision that my computer is also never the tool for a notification.

00:56:52 ◼   ► I don't ever want to get a notification on my computer.

00:56:54 ◼   ► - Well, I mean, Apple made that easy for you because notification center on the Mac

00:56:58 ◼   ► is abysmally bad. - Oh, it's terrible.

00:57:01 ◼   ► - It's unbelievable how bad it is. I've never seen a piece of the operating system that has

00:57:07 ◼   ► been made so much worse over time, which is weird. - Look, the only notification center that's worse

00:57:13 ◼   ► than the one on the Mac is the one on the Vision Pro. But again, I'm fine with that because I don't

00:57:17 ◼   ► want notifications on either of those. - I think the Vision Pro one is better,

00:57:21 ◼   ► but I genuinely think it is better because when you go into notification center on the Vision Pro,

00:57:26 ◼   ► you can at least see all of your notifications, right? On the Mac, they show you three,

00:57:31 ◼   ► you know? It's like, oh, you want to see more? Click this thing too. Like that's worse. I

00:57:35 ◼   ► actually think the Mac is worse. It doesn't make any sense. You have so much space on the screen.

00:57:40 ◼   ► Why do I only see three? Very strange. - Yeah. What I've decided is,

00:57:44 ◼   ► again, I was thinking about this with notifications a bunch, is how do I like simplify,

00:57:48 ◼   ► how do I try to get what I want to have happen happen? And I have decided that outside of some

00:57:54 ◼   ► very special cases, my phone is my notification device. This is how I am thinking about

00:58:01 ◼   ► notifications. This is where all notifications come. And so on my computer and on my watch,

00:58:08 ◼   ► I've basically shut down almost everything else unless it makes extremely specific sense

00:58:14 ◼   ► for that device. So for example, Final Cut on my Mac and Logic on my Mac can send notifications

00:58:22 ◼   ► because those are useful and they are specific to the Mac, but that's it. Otherwise, they just

00:58:28 ◼   ► don't get notifications. And my watch has some fitness notifications that just literally can't

00:58:34 ◼   ► appear anywhere else. So it's like, okay, watch, you can do that. But all notifications should be

00:58:41 ◼   ► phone notifications. And I think this works much better than you might think because with the

00:58:47 ◼   ► wireless charging stuff and the always on screen, it's like, look, wherever I am, my phone is always

00:58:52 ◼   ► just docked somewhere within view. So that's why like the phone is the notification device, is what

00:59:00 ◼   ► I have decided. And like everything else, iPads, Mac, watch, Vision Pro, all of it, like no

00:59:08 ◼   ► notifications here, phone first. That's what I'm doing.

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01:00:36 ◼   ► So I believe you also wanted to talk about your calendar?

01:00:39 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, this is where there's not actually an app problem.

01:00:43 ◼   ► A life problem? Is that what you're going to say?

01:00:46 ◼   ► It's like a father time kind of problem, you know?

01:00:49 ◼   ► The problem is that life is short and calendars represent that. Okay.

01:00:53 ◼   ► Because really it's actually a meetings problem more than it's a calendar problem.

01:00:58 ◼   ► So I feel like over the years I have done two things. One is I have reduced

01:01:05 ◼   ► the amount of meetings that I need in my work. And then I've also just filled up my time with

01:01:13 ◼   ► the work that I do, which seems like a pretty normal thing to do, right? Like the work will

01:01:17 ◼   ► occupy the space that it has available to it. And a lot of the time more than that, right?

01:01:24 ◼   ► I mean, it's not like I don't have any quote unquote meetings. Like my podcasts are essentially

01:01:28 ◼   ► that, right? Like they are chunks of time on the calendar to talk to other people,

01:01:34 ◼   ► which are like functionally meetings.

01:01:36 ◼   ► Disgusting. I hate that.

01:01:37 ◼   ► You know what I'm saying?

01:01:38 ◼   ► No.

01:01:38 ◼   ► They are scheduled. They are frequent, right? Like they are recurring. Like, you know,

01:01:46 ◼   ► I have a Monday afternoon meeting with Jason, but we just so happened to record an upgrade during it.

01:01:51 ◼   ► Boo. I hate it. Thumbs down. Hate it. Reframe. Mike, that is the creative core of your work.

01:01:59 ◼   ► Those aren't meetings. Disgusting.

01:02:01 ◼   ► Yes. Okay. Well, we can move past that because we're getting lost now.

01:02:05 ◼   ► You are forging podcasts is what you're doing, right? Meetings. No.

01:02:11 ◼   ► But what I am realising now is that to get done all of the things that I want to do,

01:02:17 ◼   ► I am having to increase the amount of meetings that I need to do.

01:02:20 ◼   ► So this is now every Monday. We've always had this.

01:02:25 ◼   ► Me and Steven always had a meeting every Monday for Relay, but it's become more serious.

01:02:31 ◼   ► Like we brought Kerry into the meeting when she became chief advertising officer,

01:02:35 ◼   ► and it is more of a structured meeting with an agenda. Like it happens every Monday.

01:02:40 ◼   ► It's more formalised than it had been before.

01:02:43 ◼   ► So that's one that's always been there, but it's become something which does take more

01:02:47 ◼   ► focus than it did previously. Also on Mondays, I have a meeting with my assistant as part of

01:02:53 ◼   ► Project Air Traffic Control. And this is the idea of like, let's talk about what's going on

01:02:59 ◼   ► this week. How am I going to do it? Where can you help me? What do you need from me?

01:03:03 ◼   ► It is the way in which we set out the week. And it's been fantastic. Some of the things

01:03:09 ◼   ► that we've put in place are brilliant, and I feel so much more on top of my work because

01:03:15 ◼   ► of this meeting. But it's another meeting, right? And now as part of different things

01:03:21 ◼   ► we're doing at Cortex Brand, I need to have more meetings with more people. And so these

01:03:24 ◼   ► are meetings for social stuff to make sure we're doing that properly. We have meetings

01:03:29 ◼   ► for brand stuff with a brand team that we're working with. Like there's so much more, as

01:03:34 ◼   ► well as manufacturers, accountants, business advisors, like more and more stuff. I should

01:03:41 ◼   ► have seen this coming when I set the year of people as my yearly theme. I should have

01:03:45 ◼   ► seen this coming.

01:03:46 ◼   ► Who could have possibly seen it coming?

01:03:48 ◼   ► It's obvious now, but I don't feel like it was necessarily obvious before because

01:03:53 ◼   ► I've worked with and we continue to work with lots of different designers and creatives

01:03:58 ◼   ► stuff with Relay. But the majority of that stuff we're able to communicate over Slack

01:04:03 ◼   ► and it's worked on and sent back. And like with our designer David that we work with,

01:04:08 ◼   ► the majority of stuff that me and him talk about is done in Slack. Like there is a level

01:04:13 ◼   ► of autonomy that everybody can have and we don't need meetings. But some of the stuff

01:04:17 ◼   ► that I'm doing now, it's requiring much bigger thinking, bigger planning, putting things

01:04:23 ◼   ► out on calendars, and also a lot of the stuff it's in my head and no one can get that

01:04:29 ◼   ► out unless they talk to me about it, right? Like how do I think about this? What am I

01:04:34 ◼   ► working on next? What are we considering? Like all of this kind of stuff. And so it

01:04:39 ◼   ► is requiring meetings. But then also I do believe that some of these things over time,

01:04:45 ◼   ► they won't need meetings for anymore and people can just get on with them. But I do

01:04:49 ◼   ► think that those meetings will only be replaced by different ones, right? So when we're

01:04:54 ◼   ► done having meetings about social because we've got a good plan for our Instagram and

01:04:58 ◼   ► like that's fine, then that will only be replaced by something else, I'm sure, right?

01:05:03 ◼   ► Like when those meetings stop because that's just kind of the mode that we're in. It

01:05:07 ◼   ► is the essence of working with a team of people. Like you need to communicate with them. And

01:05:13 ◼   ► meetings are the way that that is done. I actually really enjoy the meetings because

01:05:18 ◼   ► I care deeply about the work and I enjoy all of the stuff. The issue is that I filled up

01:05:28 ◼   ► the time already. The time was full. And now we need to add more time in. And the thing

01:05:34 ◼   ► about meetings are they are so time intensive in the sense of how much space a meeting takes

01:05:43 ◼   ► up in your day. It's huge. Like you're always at an hour, right? You just say it's

01:05:48 ◼   ► an hour at least. And so the more meetings I'm having, the less time I have to handle

01:05:53 ◼   ► my workload. I mean, and all day events, I mean, geez, if I have an all day meeting,

01:05:59 ◼   ► genuinely at the moment I'm paying for that for a week.

01:06:01 ◼   ► Yeah, I believe it. Yeah. Was it last week that we met for our accountants?

01:06:05 ◼   ► That's what I was just thinking is you and I had basically an all day meeting and you

01:06:10 ◼   ► might expect that I'm anti-meeting, but I actually, I'm not as long as you're being

01:06:15 ◼   ► sensible about it. We had to have a meeting with accountants to go over some business

01:06:20 ◼   ► stuff and I often have the feeling of like, couldn't this just be some emails back

01:06:26 ◼   ► and forth? And the answer is in theory it could, but nonetheless, like actually meeting

01:06:33 ◼   ► up in person and talking things through in person, it is just fundamentally different

01:06:37 ◼   ► and very helpful sometimes. No, I think the meeting was needed. Like there

01:06:40 ◼   ► was just a thing that we've been trying to do for months and I think it really took

01:06:43 ◼   ► everybody getting in the room to understand what everybody wanted.

01:06:46 ◼   ► But that's exactly it. Like in person you can kind of come to understandings better

01:06:51 ◼   ► and faster than you can indirectly. And then yes, but it was still an all day meeting because

01:06:57 ◼   ► it's like, ah, you and me, we scheduled a meeting after the meeting, right? And it's

01:07:00 ◼   ► like, we still kept talking and stuff, but boy, I was just exhausted after a full day

01:07:08 ◼   ► of just like basically a meeting. It's very psychologically costly, even if it is also

01:07:13 ◼   ► very valuable. So like, you know, we had that meeting and

01:07:16 ◼   ► then there were tasks that I put off because of that, that I was still dealing with like

01:07:20 ◼   ► this week. It feels like at the moment, my calendar, my to-do list are like locked in

01:07:25 ◼   ► this delicate balance. The disruption of one just causes chaos for the other.

01:07:31 ◼   ► Yeah, for sure. For sure. You know, it's just making me realize that

01:07:34 ◼   ► I am still doing too much, but maybe that is just the function of running two businesses.

01:07:42 ◼   ► Like maybe this is just what it is for now at least. Like I actually don't think that

01:07:49 ◼   ► there is really that much I can do about this. I just need to get better about how I handle

01:07:54 ◼   ► the time, I think. And that is actually part of the year of people anyway, right? Like

01:07:59 ◼   ► my hope is this is the short term pain for the longterm gain. Like we're bringing people

01:08:06 ◼   ► in. So the better people are doing the right things because a lot of the stuff that everybody's

01:08:12 ◼   ► helping with is stuff that I was doing that I'm not doing. And like, I'm realizing the

01:08:18 ◼   ► benefit of that with my assistant, which is like, there is stuff that I wanted to do that

01:08:23 ◼   ► she is handling for me now, which is great. So I guess it is just a case of, I need to

01:08:28 ◼   ► take this moment to be cognizant and remind myself of the fact that if I'm going to keep

01:08:35 ◼   ► going down this route, which I believe is the right one, I need to continue to delegate.

01:08:39 ◼   ► Yeah, I think what I'm just kind of thinking of listening to you talk is like a similar

01:08:45 ◼   ► sort of thing that I'm kind of going through on my end with some things, but I think it

01:08:49 ◼   ► is important to separate in your mind two kinds of meetings. One of which is strategy

01:08:59 ◼   ► meetings. It's like you're meeting and discussing like, what are we doing at Relay? Or like

01:09:04 ◼   ► your air traffic control meeting, which is just like still just a great name that I might

01:09:08 ◼   ► steal. Like, what is it that we're trying to achieve over the next week? Right? Like

01:09:14 ◼   ► that's one kind of meeting. And there's other kinds of meetings which are like about getting

01:09:19 ◼   ► things done or are like the side effect of bringing on new people to help you. So the

01:09:27 ◼   ► strategy meetings are irreplaceable. I think there's just fundamentally nothing that you

01:09:30 ◼   ► can do to get rid of them. But it is good to keep in mind if you're doing a like future

01:09:37 ◼   ► work or onboarding meeting of just like the purpose of this is so that in the future,

01:09:44 ◼   ► this needs to happen less. That's what's really occurring with those meetings is like trying

01:09:49 ◼   ► to set up a structure so that down the road, these meetings need to happen less. And it's

01:09:56 ◼   ► just kind of good to like, keep that in the front of your mind when you are doing that

01:10:02 ◼   ► kind of like work or onboarding meeting. This is not a strategy meeting. This is a like,

01:10:08 ◼   ► how do we get things done better meeting and like, the meeting isn't the work. In strategy

01:10:15 ◼   ► meetings, that is the work because it is the strategy. But other meetings are like, this

01:10:20 ◼   ► isn't the actual work. This is the administrative overhead for the work. And that's the kind

01:10:24 ◼   ► of thing that you just want to focus on reducing. But if you're bringing on a bunch of people,

01:10:28 ◼   ► like guess what? Yeah, you're going to have a lot of that work. But you have to focus

01:10:32 ◼   ► on keeping it temporary.

01:10:33 ◼   ► Yeah, because people have to understand what we're doing, where we're coming from, we've

01:10:39 ◼   ► got to get on the same page. And that is better when we actually sit and have conversations

01:10:43 ◼   ► and can work through this stuff together. But yes, if you're bringing in the right

01:10:47 ◼   ► people, they should be able to understand that and take that and run with it.

01:10:52 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly.

01:10:53 ◼   ► The meetings thing, really, it's just like, I just wanted to talk about it because it's

01:10:57 ◼   ► just like happening to me. But like, this is the talk therapy part of today or the others

01:11:03 ◼   ► for the actionable things. There is nothing I can do about this except to use this as

01:11:07 ◼   ► a point to like flag in the ground, I need to be aware of it. That like, if I don't

01:11:13 ◼   ► try and control it, this will spiral out of control. And I will just be in meetings all

01:11:17 ◼   ► day, every day. And I actually can't do that because that is not something that I have

01:11:22 ◼   ► the time to do with how my work is scheduled right now. I imagine a scenario in 10 years

01:11:27 ◼   ► time where that is my job. Like my job is, I'm back to back meetings, five hours a day,

01:11:32 ◼   ► eight hours a day all day. Like I imagine that scenario is a possibility for me in a

01:11:37 ◼   ► decade from now.

01:11:38 ◼   ► Yeah, I can see that.

01:11:40 ◼   ► That doesn't bother me, right? That does not bother me. But it's, I can't do that now because

01:11:45 ◼   ► I'm still in the content lines, you know, I'm still, what do you say, forging notebooks

01:11:52 ◼   ► from paper mills or whatever. Like I'm still doing all of that. So I can't be back to back

01:11:58 ◼   ► in meetings all the time. Like even if that is what people may or may not want from me,

01:12:03 ◼   ► like it's not something that my current work load and work balance will allow for.

01:12:09 ◼   ► Yeah. I have an asterisk on that, which is like, I agree with you that I can imagine

01:12:14 ◼   ► a future where what you're doing is the meeting stuff. I don't think that's a probable future

01:12:19 ◼   ► because I think you like the hands-on creation of things quite a lot and you're good at it.

01:12:25 ◼   ► I still imagine that as a meeting. Like I could still be a meeting.

01:12:28 ◼   ► No, well, I mean, that's something we just got to get straight in your brain.

01:12:31 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

01:12:32 ◼   ► Oh yes, like when I'm writing in the mornings, it's just like a meeting because it can be

01:12:36 ◼   ► on my calendar. It's just a meeting with myself. Yeah. It's me in Obsidian. We're having a

01:12:41 ◼   ► meeting. It's like, yes, sure. That is technically correct in that it exists on a calendar, but

01:12:47 ◼   ► totally unhelpful in terms of thinking about it.

01:12:49 ◼   ► This is not right, right? Let's imagine 10 years time, Cortex brand has gone global.

01:12:54 ◼   ► You know, like we're in all the stores, you know, like product design is going to be very

01:12:59 ◼   ► different.

01:13:00 ◼   ► Yes, of course.

01:13:01 ◼   ► And it will be like, hey, there's a couple of people and we're working on a thing together.

01:13:06 ◼   ► Like I'm not going to be sitting down and same as I do now. I don't like, if there's

01:13:11 ◼   ► drawings to be done, I'm not doing them or is this layout to be done? I'm not doing it.

01:13:15 ◼   ► Like I can still help steer where it's going, you know? So like then again, it's like, it's

01:13:19 ◼   ► not like a meeting, but it is a brainstorm session, right? Which is essentially just

01:13:24 ◼   ► a meeting of a whiteboard.

01:13:26 ◼   ► Yeah, sure, sure. I will concede in these scenarios. You are correct, but I just, I

01:13:31 ◼   ► feel like this is not now, Mike, right? This is not now.

01:13:33 ◼   ► No, it's a long way, if ever. What I'm saying is I just want to kind of get it out that

01:13:38 ◼   ► like I don't have a problem with having more meetings. There just has to be imbalance.

01:13:46 ◼   ► But like if I just, if my work continues to take me in a scenario where I'm having more

01:13:51 ◼   ► and more and more meetings, I'm fine with that in theory, as long as the rest of the

01:13:58 ◼   ► balance is maintained and considered.

01:14:00 ◼   ► Yeah. And I actually, I really like that comment you made about how with the calendar and the

01:14:05 ◼   ► to-do list that there are two things and like exploding one like really explodes the other.

01:14:10 ◼   ► I think that is a sharpening up of a thought about productivity that I just hadn't put

01:14:16 ◼   ► into words. And I also feel like has been a real description of my life for the past

01:14:20 ◼   ► few months. I'm like, oh yeah, I've kind of had like huge calendar disruptions. And it's

01:14:24 ◼   ► like, yes, that has massive impacts on the to-do list. Like it's just, it's good to think

01:14:28 ◼   ► about it in that way. Like I like that framing quite a lot. But yes, you are making podcasts

01:14:33 ◼   ► while you're not having meetings. I just can't, I just, I can't even hear you say that.

01:14:38 ◼   ► It's been a good meeting so far.

01:14:39 ◼   ► God, no, don't you dare.

01:14:41 ◼   ► We've got a lot taken care of today. I've got some action, I have action items, which

01:14:45 ◼   ► is not a usual thing that I have at the end of a podcast. I have a list of seven, no eight

01:14:51 ◼   ► action items so far. That's something I want to get better at too. Like sometimes I leave

01:14:58 ◼   ► meetings and I'm like, I don't know what happens now.

01:15:04 ◼   ► Every meeting that matters, you have to have action items. Like if you don't have that,

01:15:08 ◼   ► what even happened? Like a bunch of people got together and talked about their feelings

01:15:11 ◼   ► for a while, like some kind of therapy session. No. And even therapy sessions, you should,

01:15:17 ◼   ► like right now, come out of them with a bunch of like clear action items. Like this is what

01:15:21 ◼   ► you're going to do. If there's no action items, what even happened? Just a bunch of words

01:15:27 ◼   ► on the wind. That's what happened.

01:15:28 ◼   ► So I'm trying to get better at that. Like when the meeting ends, we all agree on what

01:15:33 ◼   ► needs to happen and everyone goes away. Cause I really don't like the feeling when I leave

01:15:37 ◼   ► a meeting and I'm like, that was so much, I don't even know what happens now. And I've

01:15:42 ◼   ► had that more and more in Cortex brand than anything else that I've done because we are

01:15:48 ◼   ► constantly encountering things we've not dealt with before. Which I don't remember having

01:15:54 ◼   ► a time like this in a really, really long time. Like, but it's probably been like 10

01:15:59 ◼   ► years since I've had these kinds of feelings. And so I need to make sure that like, I'm

01:16:04 ◼   ► really noting that stuff down well, and it's getting moved to the right places and being

01:16:10 ◼   ► handled. Like that's something I'm trying to get better at for sure. And it's something

01:16:14 ◼   ► that I'm going to have to really, really be diligent about. If the meetings will continue,

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01:18:35 ◼   ► Relay FM.

01:18:36 ◼   ► All right, considering that you're in therapist mode today, should we try and give some help

01:18:42 ◼   ► to the cortex ones and do some Ask Cortex questions?

01:18:44 ◼   ► Oh sure, yeah. Let's do Ask Cortex.

01:18:47 ◼   ► You can always send in your questions, whether you have questions for us or you'd like some

01:18:50 ◼   ► advice on something by going to askcortex.com and you can send them in.

01:18:54 ◼   ► Potospooke asks, "Since coming to college, I've been paying more attention to to-do lists

01:18:59 ◼   ► and utilizing them, and I've been having trouble with deciding which are the good tasks to

01:19:04 ◼   ► put on the to-do list and which tasks are just stupid. How do you decide which tasks

01:19:10 ◼   ► are good enough?"

01:19:11 ◼   ► Now I'll start by saying there are no stupid tasks.

01:19:14 ◼   ► No, I believe this. If you think that something needs to be remembered, you should write it

01:19:22 ◼   ► down and then over time you can learn if you needed to remember that or not. But like some

01:19:29 ◼   ► of the stuff that I put as a task is madness, but it makes me feel better to have done it.

01:19:35 ◼   ► Do you have an example of that?

01:19:37 ◼   ► Today I was on my way and I was like, "I've got to remember to have a coffee before we

01:19:42 ◼   ► start recording." Now that is not a problem for me. I know I know this, but I opened you,

01:19:46 ◼   ► I'd say coffee, in one hour. So in an hour I'd already bought the coffee, but the reminder

01:19:51 ◼   ► went off and I didn't have to think about it anymore because I'd already done it and

01:19:54 ◼   ► I was happy about it. But I would have really regretted it if I wouldn't have done it.

01:19:59 ◼   ► So it just goes into Dew, it's simple. So for me, just as a general thought, if you

01:20:06 ◼   ► have tasks that you think are important, they go in your to-do app. If you have tasks that

01:20:10 ◼   ► you think are "stupid," they can go in a different app. So they're not clogging things up, but

01:20:15 ◼   ► you're at least written them down and you're going to get a reminder, whether it's something

01:20:18 ◼   ► like Dew or reminders or even an Apple note or whatever. So you can feel better about

01:20:25 ◼   ► the fact that you did write it down somewhere. I do think that that is important. It's important

01:20:30 ◼   ► for the practice of understanding that if you have a task, it gets written down. So

01:20:35 ◼   ► you get into the habit of writing stuff down because if you don't, you will have important

01:20:39 ◼   ► things that will slip through the cracks. That's how I feel anyway.

01:20:42 ◼   ► Yeah, I think I was zeroing in too much on the task part of it. And also you say there's

01:20:46 ◼   ► no stupid tasks, which it's like, I get it in the way that you were framing it. I think

01:20:50 ◼   ► I was hearing it in a bit like, "Are there stupid things to do?" The answer to which

01:20:55 ◼   ► is like, "Well, yeah, obviously. There's real dumb things that you can do."

01:20:58 ◼   ► Yeah, but your to-do app's not going to help that.

01:21:01 ◼   ► Yeah. I think you're pushing more of an answer to this question, which I think I would summarize

01:21:09 ◼   ► as it is not possible to over capture ideas. The vast majority of people are under capturing

01:21:20 ◼   ► ideas, like the things that pop into their head. A huge number of which are tasks, like

01:21:25 ◼   ► I should do this or I should do that. If there's something that has popped into your head,

01:21:29 ◼   ► it cannot be so small as to not be worth writing down and considering later. I think thoughts

01:21:37 ◼   ► that come into your head by default should be captured.

01:21:39 ◼   ► And with to-do lists, I really am now pushing the like, I think it is so good to get into

01:21:46 ◼   ► the habit of talking to Siri or whatever your assistant is and just saying like, "Remind

01:21:53 ◼   ► me later to whatever," just as a starting point. I actually did this just on our pre-chat

01:21:59 ◼   ► today. There was something earlier and that kind of stuff has just gotten real good. And

01:22:05 ◼   ► like you said, can also be, even if you don't use the reminders app or whatever the default

01:22:08 ◼   ► is on your phone, that can be the place where just a bunch of random stuff lives that you

01:22:14 ◼   ► know that while you're talking to someone, you can just quickly like tell your phone

01:22:19 ◼   ► like, "Hey, remind me to whatever in X days or tomorrow or in an hour." Like, "Oh, there's

01:22:25 ◼   ► a thing I can't do now? Just like remind me in an hour to do this thing?" Once you start

01:22:29 ◼   ► doing that, it is shocking how often you will notice if you say like, "Oh, remind me in

01:22:34 ◼   ► an hour to do whatever," that when that hour comes up later, you have already completely

01:22:39 ◼   ► forgotten the thing and are like, "Oh, right. I need to do that." So yeah, like you cannot

01:22:44 ◼   ► possibly over capture this.

01:22:46 ◼   ► - Man, you saying about talking to Siri about this stuff like we're on the verge of such

01:22:51 ◼   ► potential later on this year.

01:22:53 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah. I think this is only going to get better for sure.

01:22:56 ◼   ► - This stuff could get incredibly good. Like the ability to be able to talk to the assistant

01:23:01 ◼   ► on your phone and like with tasks and understanding your calendar and knowing that like there

01:23:08 ◼   ► is a potential here that I am actually pretty excited about and I just hope that they're

01:23:12 ◼   ► able to realize something even partly good. Like as you say, like for adding tasks and

01:23:18 ◼   ► reminders and timers and all that kind of stuff, it's good right now that it's gotten

01:23:22 ◼   ► better over time, but like there is a potential huge leap that they could make if they can

01:23:28 ◼   ► work out some kind of LLM-based Siri that's actually good.

01:23:32 ◼   ► - Yeah, for sure. I mean, I can see even little inklings of this. It's like a slight sidebar

01:23:37 ◼   ► of the thing that I ultimately decided on as the action button on my phone is talk to

01:23:42 ◼   ► chat GPT is what I use the action button for.

01:23:46 ◼   ► - Oh, that's interesting. Mine by the way is adding tasks.

01:23:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah. I think that makes sense.

01:23:53 ◼   ► - And it's fantastic. So I hit it. It says like, what's your task? I write down the task

01:23:57 ◼   ► and I say like, okay. It was like, what time? And I type in a time and it's like, where

01:24:02 ◼   ► do you want this to go? And if it goes to do this or it goes to do. If it goes to do,

01:24:05 ◼   ► it's done. If I press to do it, it says what project do you want to put this in? And I

01:24:09 ◼   ► do that. So it's like for me, like adding tasks, it starts with one action, which is

01:24:13 ◼   ► pressing the action button. And then there's a flow that I go through, which is very quick.

01:24:18 ◼   ► And I really like it because sometimes it means I can add the task when I'm still looking

01:24:22 ◼   ► at the thing that's on my phone. Cause it's just popping up over the top, you know?

01:24:26 ◼   ► - Okay. I do have one exception that just popped into my head as like, what kind of

01:24:30 ◼   ► tasks are just like, just stupid to add. And I think there is an exception here, which

01:24:36 ◼   ► is if you're in like a real work mode, you're in an optimal scenario. So like you're, you're

01:24:41 ◼   ► on your computer and you're doing work. I feel like sometimes I'm in a real like administration

01:24:47 ◼   ► mode. You're just like doing a bunch of things in that mode. If something pops up in my head

01:24:54 ◼   ► as like, Oh, this is a thing that I should do. I won't write it down. If it's something

01:24:59 ◼   ► that I can just do quickly right now. - Oh yeah. I mean, it doesn't make any sense

01:25:04 ◼   ► to add a task if you can do the thing, like just do the thing. Yeah.

01:25:08 ◼   ► - Yes. That is the exception. If you can do the thing, the moment that you have thought

01:25:13 ◼   ► of it and it is not interrupting some kind of other workflow, then you should just do

01:25:19 ◼   ► it. That's when it's a bad idea to write it down. I think that that use case in a sense

01:25:24 ◼   ► is quite narrow because you also just want to be sure that you're not derailing yourself

01:25:31 ◼   ► right in like what are you actually trying to accomplish? That's why I think of it as

01:25:34 ◼   ► like if I'm in admin mode, that's when I'll like I'll write down the smallest number of

01:25:39 ◼   ► tasks because I'm just like I can do more things in that moment. But yeah, so it's like

01:25:44 ◼   ► if the administrative overhead of tracking the thing is not worth just clearing it immediately,

01:25:50 ◼   ► then don't do it. But yeah, there's no task too small, which actually goes to the next

01:25:56 ◼   ► Ask Cortex question that we have, which is from Riley, who asks, "You answered a question

01:26:02 ◼   ► about how long each of you go without looking at your phone after waking up. They want to

01:26:08 ◼   ► ask, 'How long do you go without looking at your to-do list for the day?'" And I like

01:26:15 ◼   ► this question because my previous answer for how long do you go before you look at your

01:26:21 ◼   ► phone was like zero. Like I wake up and I basically look at the phone immediately for

01:26:26 ◼   ► something. And it's like, oh, what is almost certainly one of the very first things that

01:26:32 ◼   ► I am looking at? It is my to-do list. Like the to-do list is almost certainly one of

01:26:38 ◼   ► the first things that I'm looking at. And when asking about like, oh, is a task too

01:26:43 ◼   ► small to have on your to-do list? No, because I have what I call my whole boot up routine

01:26:51 ◼   ► in the morning of like, hey, welcome to consciousness, Gray. Here's the order in which you need to

01:26:57 ◼   ► do things to boot up into being a human who's like ready to go and get to work. And that

01:27:03 ◼   ► checklist, that list of to-do items is so dumb, right? It is like brush teeth level

01:27:10 ◼   ► dumb, but I love it. And it really just like makes the morning totally brain dead easy

01:27:18 ◼   ► for like, no, no, this is the order in which I know I need to do things.

01:27:22 ◼   ► Are you getting like a dopamine hit from this? Is that one of the reasons that you like it?

01:27:26 ◼   ► Like you just enjoy checking the checklist off, like look how productive I am.

01:27:29 ◼   ► So there is, there's two things that are happening here. One thing is it is totally a like get

01:27:37 ◼   ► into the swing of things, right? This is what you should be doing. You should be getting

01:27:41 ◼   ► up and like starting to work through your list because the like first half of the day

01:27:47 ◼   ► is the vitally important work half of the day. So like just make this go nice and easy.

01:27:52 ◼   ► So I do think there is something that's like training your brain to be like, look at the

01:27:57 ◼   ► thing that you have decided it should be guiding your day. And here's 20 easy wins to start

01:28:06 ◼   ► the day off as like good momentum for sure. But the other part of this, which I didn't

01:28:12 ◼   ► appreciate when I first started it is order really matters. And I think when I used to

01:28:21 ◼   ► wake up, it's like I sort of had in my head all of the things that I need to do. But Mike,

01:28:28 ◼   ► in Magic the Gathering, there's a thing called sequencing, right? Which is the order in which

01:28:32 ◼   ► you're going to play your cards. Very important. And new players underrate the value of sequencing.

01:28:40 ◼   ► You can do all of the same things on a move, but if you don't sequence them correctly,

01:28:44 ◼   ► it's the difference between winning and losing. And so I have slowly sequenced the morning

01:28:50 ◼   ► to just be better for me of like, yes, here's 10 things that need to happen before I like

01:28:56 ◼   ► stumble on my way to the gym or whatever I'm doing that morning. But this order of like,

01:29:03 ◼   ► no, I want to do this before this. I want to do that before this as just like the dumbest

01:29:08 ◼   ► sort of thing. Every morning it's like, okay, I need to get dressed for the day, but I also

01:29:13 ◼   ► want to weigh myself. The number of times in the past where it's like, I'm just kind

01:29:18 ◼   ► of stumbling around in the morning and it's like, and I get dressed and it's like, oh,

01:29:20 ◼   ► I also want to weigh myself. The chance that I'm going to just like take off the clothes

01:29:25 ◼   ► I have just put on to weigh myself is zero. So it's like, no, no, weigh myself is like

01:29:31 ◼   ► the very first thing in the morning because it's also the thing that like I've learned

01:29:36 ◼   ► if I don't do that one first, it's like wildly drops the probability that it's going to occur

01:29:42 ◼   ► later. So that's what's occurring as well. It's like, just pay attention. I actually

01:29:47 ◼   ► want to do these things and like this is the order to do them. So the answer to when do

01:29:51 ◼   ► I look at my to do list is like first thing with like my barely open eyes. Like what do

01:29:56 ◼   ► I need to do? Step one, get out of bed. What about you, Mike?

01:30:01 ◼   ► I mean, I don't know anymore because it was look at my email. So yeah, you're in a new

01:30:06 ◼   ► world. That's the first thing I was doing. So who knows? Maybe to do will be first, but

01:30:10 ◼   ► I don't think so. Because like my tasks are pretty set. Like I don't know how soon it

01:30:20 ◼   ► would be before I look at my to do list. It's probably most days it's not until I get to

01:30:26 ◼   ► the office because I am pretty good about like, as I said before, every task gets a

01:30:29 ◼   ► time for me a day at a time. It's going to remind me. So if I need to do something before

01:30:37 ◼   ► I get to the studio, my phone will let me know. Like on Mondays I buy groceries for

01:30:46 ◼   ► lunches during the week. Well, I have that set to remind me a time which is good on a

01:30:51 ◼   ► Monday that reminds me to go buy those groceries. Like I don't need to have looked at my to

01:30:56 ◼   ► do list for that to occur to me. So it's not super soon. Maybe it will become that way.

01:31:01 ◼   ► I have no idea what I will do tomorrow morning when I wake up. I have no idea what's going

01:31:08 ◼   ► to happen. You're a free man, Mike. What we find is like whatever app I put in my dock,

01:31:14 ◼   ► that's the one that will get opened. All right, well you need to really think about what that's

01:31:17 ◼   ► going to be then. Yeah, I have no idea. I think I'm going to have to be three apps in

01:31:20 ◼   ► the dock for a little bit because I don't know what could get promoted to dock worthy.

01:31:25 ◼   ► Yeah, another action item for you. Matthew writes in to say, considering your love of

01:31:30 ◼   ► heated seats and air conditioning, do you have a heat pad on your office chair? This

01:31:35 ◼   ► is a great question because we all found out that you love and you think the best way and

01:31:39 ◼   ► I have from so many people, my God, this is so frustrating to me. So many people in my

01:31:44 ◼   ► life were just telling me, oh man, I love to put on the air conditioning and turn on

01:31:49 ◼   ► the heated seat. I was getting this left, right and center. Great. You deserved it.

01:31:54 ◼   ► No, I don't deserve it. You know what? I don't deserve it. Heated seats and air conditioning

01:31:59 ◼   ► team unite. Finally, there's people on my side with an air conditioning topic. Well,

01:32:03 ◼   ► I actually do have another one that I didn't put into the show notes, but I will read to

01:32:07 ◼   ► you now because it doesn't require much action, but you might want to hear this. This comes

01:32:11 ◼   ► from Lauren who says, I would never have thought to do the thermostat hacking when we arrived

01:32:18 ◼   ► at our Hawaii resort hotel and the thermostat only went down to 68 degrees Fahrenheit and

01:32:23 ◼   ► did not actually even come close to the actual temperature. I immediately jumped on YouTube

01:32:28 ◼   ► and found a video showing how to unlock our exact thermostat and it made our trips so

01:32:32 ◼   ► much more comfortable. Thank you, Gray. Oh, you're welcome. Look at me improving lives.

01:32:39 ◼   ► I'm still not sure about the legality of these things or the safety of these things, but

01:32:44 ◼   ► nevertheless you have air conditioning in your office. Do you have a heated seat that

01:32:50 ◼   ► you're sitting on? So I just have to say to Matthew, thank you. Oh no. I don't know how

01:32:58 ◼   ► this never occurred to me before, but I am going to do this. You could get one of those

01:33:03 ◼   ► massage things. What do you mean by the mass? What are you, what are you thinking of? What's

01:33:07 ◼   ► in your head for this? There are a lot of these like seat pads that are like massage

01:33:12 ◼   ► things that also have heat options. Hmm. So you could get like one of these like massage

01:33:18 ◼   ► chair additions that you can put onto like any office chair, which you could just use

01:33:22 ◼   ► for heating. But every now and then maybe also a massage, you know, that sounds very

01:33:27 ◼   ► fancy. Yeah. I don't know how this thought never entered my head. It just like, it just

01:33:31 ◼   ► never occurred to me, but uh, yeah, I'm going to think this through. Yeah. This is 100%

01:33:38 ◼   ► in my future. Heated chair, frozen office. Cortexins. We're very excited to introduce

01:33:47 ◼   ► you to a three part membership event. Very excited. I have never seen the Lord of the

01:33:53 ◼   ► Rings trilogy. Unbelievable to me. Never seen them. That is changing. If you are a cortex

01:34:01 ◼   ► member, if you sign up at get more text.com, not only do you get access to ad free longer

01:34:07 ◼   ► versions of each and every episode of cortex, including an ad free back catalog, you also

01:34:13 ◼   ► get access to the more text special episodes feed. This feed includes all of the specials

01:34:19 ◼   ► that we've done in the past, all of the text adventures in the RPGs and now the first episode

01:34:26 ◼   ► where we have watched Lord of the Rings, the fellowship of the ring. We've watched it together.

01:34:31 ◼   ► Me for the first time, Gray for the many of time and we talk about it. So we're going

01:34:37 ◼   ► to be doing three episodes, one for each movie and they're going to be available just two

01:34:43 ◼   ► more Texans. So pumped for this. We've recorded the first one. I could just never hold it

01:34:48 ◼   ► in my mind that Mike had not seen these movies because it's such an unbelievable fact to

01:34:53 ◼   ► me. It's like what member of civilization has not seen these movies? It was Mike and

01:34:59 ◼   ► we talked about this a bunch and in our conversations I eventually realized like I have not seen

01:35:05 ◼   ► these movies in a long time. Like it has been a long time since I sat down and like properly

01:35:11 ◼   ► watched them through. And so yeah, we're like, you know what we're doing for cortex? This

01:35:16 ◼   ► is what we're doing. So we have recorded a fellowship of the ring. You can go listen

01:35:22 ◼   ► to it right now and we are recording the other two episodes and it's like, ah, I'm so excited.

01:35:30 ◼   ► I won't say what I thought of the movie that will be only for more Texans, but the episode

01:35:35 ◼   ► was a ton of fun to do. Yeah. And I think that people are really going to enjoy it.

01:35:39 ◼   ► So you can get this right now by going to get more tax.com and of course there'll be

01:35:45 ◼   ► via link in the show notes.

01:35:46 ◼   ► - Get more techs.com.

01:35:48 ◼   ► [ Silence ]