Connected

00:00:00 ◼   ► [Music]

00:00:07 ◼   ► From Relay FM, this is Connected episode 488.

00:00:11 ◼   ► Today's episode is brought to you by ShipStation, NetSuite, and Ecamm.

00:00:16 ◼   ► My name is Mike Hurley, and I'm joined by Federico Vittucci.

00:00:20 ◼   ► Hello Mike, how are you?

00:00:23 ◼   ► I'm very good Federico, how are you?

00:00:24 ◼   ► Well, I'm also very good, and we're also joined by Mr. Steven Hackett, hello Steven.

00:00:30 ◼   ► Hello from the metaverse.

00:00:32 ◼   ► Oh!

00:00:33 ◼   ► Are you in the metaverse?

00:00:34 ◼   ► I got the wrong headset in the mail, there was some mix-up.

00:00:38 ◼   ► No one has legs!

00:00:41 ◼   ► Well, in the Vision Pro, nobody has anything other than shoulders,

00:00:46 ◼   ► and the occasional hand, so, you know, they're not doing much better.

00:00:50 ◼   ► That's about as much as you need.

00:00:52 ◼   ► You don't really need legs, you know, it's fine, you just, you know, shoulders, hands, that's it.

00:00:59 ◼   ► It's okay.

00:00:59 ◼   ► Heads, shoulders, knees, and toes.

00:01:01 ◼   ► Yeah, the song's a lot shorter in the Vision Pro, you know.

00:01:04 ◼   ► Yeah, I wanted to issue a follow-up today, because weirdly most of our follow-up is about

00:01:09 ◼   ► a thing we haven't spoken about yet, so I wanted to move it to the end of the show,

00:01:12 ◼   ► and we just begin by talking about the Vision Pro right now.

00:01:16 ◼   ► Okay.

00:01:16 ◼   ► Well, you guys can talk about the Vision Pro.

00:01:19 ◼   ► Yeah, can we get a status update?

00:01:20 ◼   ► Like, status update, where in the world is Federico's Vision Pro?

00:01:26 ◼   ► Right now, I'm living this sort of like Schrodinger's Vision Pro situation,

00:01:34 ◼   ► where my Vision Pro may or may not be in Ohio.

00:01:40 ◼   ► So, you may be asking about teaching, you bought it on Friday, yes.

00:01:45 ◼   ► But shipping turned out to be more complex than we anticipated.

00:01:49 ◼   ► Let me tell you the brief version.

00:01:51 ◼   ► When you declare the value of something that you want to ship from the United States to

00:01:56 ◼   ► be over $3,000, it opens a whole can of worms that, thankfully, we got to build a monument

00:02:03 ◼   ► for OTJ here.

00:02:05 ◼   ► He's been dealing with all these things with U.S. customs, and the whole process of shipping

00:02:13 ◼   ► an item with a value above $3,000, and all the documentation that we didn't know was

00:02:19 ◼   ► necessary.

00:02:21 ◼   ► So, Jon has been dealing with all that, multiple phone calls.

00:02:25 ◼   ► Oh, no.

00:02:25 ◼   ► He doesn't have to be on the phone?

00:02:27 ◼   ► Yeah, but he's uptight.

00:02:28 ◼   ► He's a boomer.

00:02:29 ◼   ► He likes phone calls.

00:02:30 ◼   ► No, he doesn't.

00:02:31 ◼   ► No, he doesn't.

00:02:32 ◼   ► That was Jon's choice.

00:02:33 ◼   ► They offered him a form on the phone, and he chose phone.

00:02:35 ◼   ► I don't want an online chat.

00:02:36 ◼   ► I want to speak to another human.

00:02:38 ◼   ► He doesn't.

00:02:39 ◼   ► He tried with email first, and the email didn't work.

00:02:43 ◼   ► And then he had to do multiple phone calls.

00:02:44 ◼   ► And another visit to the shipping center where he originally went to.

00:02:49 ◼   ► It was a whole thing.

00:02:50 ◼   ► And finally, finally, this morning, I woke up, and I saw an email saying, "Your package

00:02:58 ◼   ► has been processed at the Cincinnati Hub, and it's now leaving Cincinnati, Ohio."

00:03:05 ◼   ► But I still don't see what it is.

00:03:09 ◼   ► So, I'm guessing that the package is currently on a plane on its way to Germany, and then

00:03:14 ◼   ► from Germany, it'll find its way to Italy.

00:03:17 ◼   ► But there's an excellent sign that seems to, knock on wood and everything, suggest that

00:03:23 ◼   ► everything is going to be fine.

00:03:24 ◼   ► I have already paid my import taxes because I got an email saying, "These are your import

00:03:32 ◼   ► taxes.

00:03:32 ◼   ► Pay them."

00:03:34 ◼   ► I paid them.

00:03:35 ◼   ► I got a receipt, and it says, "Great.

00:03:37 ◼   ► You've paid your import taxes.

00:03:38 ◼   ► Your package is now proceeding to destination."

00:03:41 ◼   ► So, fingers crossed it'll be in Germany tonight, and hopefully, maybe even in Italy tomorrow.

00:03:47 ◼   ► I'm guessing that I'll get it by tomorrow or Friday.

00:03:51 ◼   ► So, I was supposed to get it on Tuesday.

00:03:54 ◼   ► I paid for an express worldwide delivery for Tuesday, but huge lesson learned here.

00:04:00 ◼   ► If you declare something up with a value of above $3,000 in the US, good luck.

00:04:06 ◼   ► Oh, I'm sorry.

00:04:08 ◼   ► It is.

00:04:09 ◼   ► Must be very stressful.

00:04:10 ◼   ► It's fine, but thank you OTJ for dealing with that volume of emails and phone calls and

00:04:19 ◼   ► documents.

00:04:19 ◼   ► Thank you for making that happen.

00:04:22 ◼   ► The things that man does, truly incredible.

00:04:25 ◼   ► It's true.

00:04:26 ◼   ► You know?

00:04:27 ◼   ► Yeah, he's just the best, you know?

00:04:30 ◼   ► Yeah, he is.

00:04:31 ◼   ► He is.

00:04:31 ◼   ► That's why he is the one true John.

00:04:34 ◼   ► That's why there are no others.

00:04:35 ◼   ► The one true John.

00:04:37 ◼   ► So, all this to say, I don't have a vision pro.

00:04:40 ◼   ► I am curious to learn how you guys have been using it.

00:04:43 ◼   ► I have a few questions.

00:04:44 ◼   ► I have a few doubts and I'm just here to take in the knowledge that you will cast upon me.

00:04:52 ◼   ► So, please shower me in knowledge today and your first impressions.

00:04:58 ◼   ► I've got to say, I'm actually today pretty keen to hear Steven's impressions because

00:05:06 ◼   ► I've spoken about an upgrade, right?

00:05:09 ◼   ► So, I think people have heard that and also like we've been chit-chatting as a group and

00:05:14 ◼   ► I feel like Steven has been quite reserved one way or another.

00:05:21 ◼   ► Like I genuinely do not know where you're standing on this right now.

00:05:26 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:05:26 ◼   ► And I'm actually, I'm excited about this, but before I do want to touch on one thing

00:05:32 ◼   ► before that if that's okay, which is just the store experience.

00:05:37 ◼   ► So, we both went and bought ours in stores, right?

00:05:40 ◼   ► Steven, you went to the store in Memphis.

00:05:42 ◼   ► I went here in Manhattan and I went to the Fifth Avenue store, which is where I met Tim Cook.

00:05:49 ◼   ► I'm happy to let everybody know that Tim is smaller than me.

00:05:53 ◼   ► I'm taller than Tim, which I did not expect obviously.

00:05:56 ◼   ► But does Tim Cook think he's taller than you?

00:05:59 ◼   ► 100% he does.

00:06:01 ◼   ► Tim Cook does not have my problem, right?

00:06:04 ◼   ► Like he does not have that problem.

00:06:06 ◼   ► Tim Cook believes and is probably right to believe that he stands above everybody.

00:06:11 ◼   ► But in this one instance, I was...

00:06:12 ◼   ► But especially Mike Hurley.

00:06:14 ◼   ► Yeah, especially.

00:06:15 ◼   ► He actually said that.

00:06:16 ◼   ► He's like, "Oh, you're smaller than I thought," which was an interesting thing.

00:06:20 ◼   ► So tell me.

00:06:21 ◼   ► It was really weird of him to say that, but he did.

00:06:24 ◼   ► That's what he said.

00:06:25 ◼   ► Yeah, just kind of, kind of...

00:06:26 ◼   ► Can I ask you a question about meeting Tim Cook?

00:06:27 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:06:29 ◼   ► Does he sound as Southern in person as he does on recordings?

00:06:36 ◼   ► Yes.

00:06:36 ◼   ► And I think what actually...

00:06:37 ◼   ► It's actually accentuated in person because he is very gracious and humble.

00:06:43 ◼   ► Right?

00:06:44 ◼   ► So like that...

00:06:45 ◼   ► It feels like he has even more of a Southern vibe when talking directly with him than when he presents.

00:06:52 ◼   ► Oh, because they're very gracious and humble in the South?

00:06:55 ◼   ► I've found that to be the case.

00:06:58 ◼   ► Steven, I don't know if you...

00:06:59 ◼   ► Yeah, we're like super humble, y'all.

00:07:00 ◼   ► We're like the most humble people there are.

00:07:02 ◼   ► I don't know if it's just Steven and Steven's family who are humble.

00:07:05 ◼   ► I have met people in this, like, you know, it's like a Southern hospitality kind of idea, right?

00:07:11 ◼   ► Like that convention of like, it is typically believed to people from the South that like,

00:07:16 ◼   ► you know, they're, you know, come on in, you know, like that kind of idea.

00:07:21 ◼   ► I'm painting with a broad brush, you know?

00:07:24 ◼   ► Okay, okay.

00:07:25 ◼   ► Okay, I get it.

00:07:26 ◼   ► And he had that vibe.

00:07:31 ◼   ► So he was more like, I think, is that Gentile the word I'm trying to use here?

00:07:37 ◼   ► I think so, yeah.

00:07:38 ◼   ► Yeah, that was kind of the vibe.

00:07:40 ◼   ► It was pretty surreal.

00:07:42 ◼   ► It was a pretty surreal morning.

00:07:45 ◼   ► But I wanted, unless you guys want to know any more, anything more about Timmy.

00:07:50 ◼   ► How long was the interaction between you two?

00:07:52 ◼   ► At least a minute.

00:07:54 ◼   ► Okay.

00:07:55 ◼   ► There were three questions asked and answered.

00:08:00 ◼   ► I don't remember the third one.

00:08:02 ◼   ► Like, because at that point, my brain was just like, okay, I'm going to ask for a selfie now.

00:08:06 ◼   ► And like, I was just trying to like, get the courage up to ask for the selfie.

00:08:11 ◼   ► And like, the things that it was just like, you know, I said, oh, this is so awesome.

00:08:14 ◼   ► Congratulations.

00:08:15 ◼   ► It's a really exciting day or an exciting store.

00:08:17 ◼   ► It was a very like, surface level conversation, which was what I wanted to do, you know?

00:08:25 ◼   ► Maybe I should have gone in and said like, hey, Tim, tell me all about the core technology fee.

00:08:30 ◼   ► I guess I could have gone one way or another.

00:08:32 ◼   ► Just put a hand on his shoulder.

00:08:33 ◼   ► Look at him straight in the eye and be like, Tim, tell me, are you happy?

00:08:37 ◼   ► Wow.

00:08:39 ◼   ► What is your deepest fear?

00:08:42 ◼   ► And then that's the end.

00:08:45 ◼   ► Never again am I allowed to speak to anyone.

00:08:48 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:08:48 ◼   ► But obviously I'm happy for you.

00:08:50 ◼   ► That was such a great picture.

00:08:52 ◼   ► Great moment.

00:08:53 ◼   ► Well done.

00:08:53 ◼   ► Well done.

00:08:54 ◼   ► Worth the trip?

00:08:54 ◼   ► I was happy with the photo.

00:08:55 ◼   ► I bet.

00:08:56 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:08:57 ◼   ► I would say yes, it was definitely a kind of cherry on the top of this trip.

00:09:01 ◼   ► I just, I just realized the two of you have selfies with Tim Cook and I don't.

00:09:06 ◼   ► Now I got to get one.

00:09:07 ◼   ► I don't.

00:09:08 ◼   ► Federico, do you have a selfie with him?

00:09:10 ◼   ► Cause you have that really incredible photo.

00:09:12 ◼   ► Do you have a selfie too?

00:09:14 ◼   ► I have a selfie and a private conversation with Tim Cook.

00:09:16 ◼   ► Yes.

00:09:17 ◼   ► Yep.

00:09:18 ◼   ► So you're next, Steven.

00:09:21 ◼   ► I hope so.

00:09:22 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:09:23 ◼   ► You should just accost him when you see him next, you know?

00:09:25 ◼   ► Just like walk up to him and be like, Hey, you spoke to both my friends.

00:09:28 ◼   ► Why won't you speak to me?

00:09:29 ◼   ► I'm, I'm, I'm not saying the correlation is causation here, Steven, but, but, but I'm just

00:09:33 ◼   ► saying that of the three of us, the two people who do not collect old Macs are the ones who

00:09:39 ◼   ► were able to have a picture with Tim Cook.

00:09:41 ◼   ► Yep.

00:09:42 ◼   ► That's true.

00:09:43 ◼   ► Tim, Tim likes the future.

00:09:44 ◼   ► He doesn't want, he doesn't care about the past.

00:09:46 ◼   ► I'm just saying.

00:09:47 ◼   ► Or do you think it's his gate?

00:09:48 ◼   ► Do you think that's still following me around?

00:09:49 ◼   ► Yes.

00:09:50 ◼   ► Can you imagine that really quickly?

00:09:53 ◼   ► And he's just like, it's just like, you know, he just thinks that that sound back at you

00:09:57 ◼   ► and you're like, Oh no, he remembers.

00:09:59 ◼   ► He remembers.

00:10:00 ◼   ► But anyway, enough of Tim Cook.

00:10:03 ◼   ► Enough of Tim Cook.

00:10:04 ◼   ► The store experience was very interesting.

00:10:07 ◼   ► And I wanted to put a couple of links in the show notes to some work from Michael Stieber

00:10:14 ◼   ► and in his, he has a sub stack, right?

00:10:16 ◼   ► And he has a lot of imagery and kind of talking about the experience.

00:10:21 ◼   ► I did not do the try-on it was given to me as an option and I didn't want to do it.

00:10:25 ◼   ► It didn't, I didn't feel the need.

00:10:26 ◼   ► Especially because I'm here for a week.

00:10:29 ◼   ► If I had like fit issues, I would have come back.

00:10:31 ◼   ► I kind of wanted to just get in and get out of the store as fast as possible because it

00:10:34 ◼   ► was super busy, but I was pretty impressed by like the way some of the stuff looked like.

00:10:40 ◼   ► It seems like these big Apple stores now have these really beautiful seating areas for try-ons

00:10:44 ◼   ► and I could see people doing them.

00:10:46 ◼   ► But the main thing I want is like the Apple store employees are taking the Vision Pros

00:10:51 ◼   ► around with these little trays and I want one of these trays and Michael Stieber has an

00:10:55 ◼   ► image of it in his piece.

00:10:57 ◼   ► Like I don't know where to put this thing when I get home, you know, like where does

00:11:03 ◼   ► it go and like having one of these beautiful little wooden trays where it's like all fits

00:11:07 ◼   ► nicely that looks really good.

00:11:08 ◼   ► That's one reason I bought the travel case.

00:11:11 ◼   ► It's like I need a place to put this thing.

00:11:13 ◼   ► Case is great.

00:11:15 ◼   ► Okay, case.

00:11:16 ◼   ► Yeah, the case is awesome.

00:11:17 ◼   ► I did in-store pickup.

00:11:19 ◼   ► I did the try-on.

00:11:21 ◼   ► I did the demo.

00:11:22 ◼   ► The try-on was, you know, they did my face.

00:11:26 ◼   ► It was the same measurement that my iPhone had given me the week before.

00:11:29 ◼   ► So they brought one out with sort of my configuration.

00:11:34 ◼   ► They scanned my glasses so they could put Zeiss lenses in that matched my prescription.

00:11:38 ◼   ► And my wife, Mary, and I both did the demo and it was my first experience with it.

00:11:45 ◼   ► Y'all got to try it at WWDC.

00:11:47 ◼   ► I did not and probably because I collect old Macs.

00:11:50 ◼   ► And we're like, wait, is this headset?

00:11:53 ◼   ► Is it making a noise?

00:11:55 ◼   ► Cut that, Jim.

00:11:57 ◼   ► But.

00:11:58 ◼   ► So anyways, it was my first experience and it I now understand how y'all felt after WWDC

00:12:08 ◼   ► because you put this thing on and of course the demo is set up to be as sizzly as possible,

00:12:14 ◼   ► right?

00:12:14 ◼   ► They want it to make an impact.

00:12:17 ◼   ► And it definitely did.

00:12:19 ◼   ► It was really cool to go through that experience.

00:12:21 ◼   ► It's about half an hour.

00:12:21 ◼   ► The person at the Apple store I was paired with had an iPad mini so he could see what

00:12:26 ◼   ► I was seeing.

00:12:26 ◼   ► And it was really cool to go through the demo and I'm glad Mary did as well.

00:12:32 ◼   ► Always like her input on these things.

00:12:34 ◼   ► She thinks, and I quote, the technology is cool, but she doesn't like that it covers

00:12:39 ◼   ► people's eyes up, which I understand that's a big thing this product has to overcome.

00:12:44 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:12:46 ◼   ► I think it will.

00:12:48 ◼   ► I think it will, too, even though the eyes are weird.

00:12:50 ◼   ► What did you think about how it felt to wear?

00:12:53 ◼   ► I mean, it is heavy.

00:12:55 ◼   ► Like, you know, everyone has said that.

00:12:57 ◼   ► It took a little while during the demo just to get it kind of seated right on my face.

00:13:04 ◼   ► Like I had light around the bottom, but I eventually kind of realized I need to move

00:13:09 ◼   ► the strap like up a little bit on the back of my head and that kind of changes the way

00:13:13 ◼   ► it pulls.

00:13:14 ◼   ► Of course, the store demo is all the solo loop, the really nice one.

00:13:18 ◼   ► And the dual loop is like a dirty secret.

00:13:22 ◼   ► Apple stuffs in the bottom of the box when you get a vision pro.

00:13:25 ◼   ► It's like, don't worry about that one.

00:13:26 ◼   ► But I mean, it is the way it was noticeable pretty early on, but it's not uncomfortable,

00:13:34 ◼   ► but I've never and yesterday, actually, I used it for like 90 minutes and by far my

00:13:41 ◼   ► longest stretch and you never, I least never kind of forget that I'm wearing it.

00:13:45 ◼   ► Like it's always kind of ever present.

00:13:47 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:13:48 ◼   ► I mean, obviously you can't forget it because it's there.

00:13:51 ◼   ► But like for me, the weight tends to be a thing when I when I put it on, I notice it

00:13:56 ◼   ► and then it goes away for me over time.

00:13:58 ◼   ► One of the great things about long stretches, I've never been able to use any VR equipment

00:14:06 ◼   ► for more than an hour without feeling it in my eyes or my head.

00:14:10 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:14:10 ◼   ► If you felt that ever felt that way, Federico, do you get like eye strain from other stuff

00:14:15 ◼   ► that you've used, like from like quests and no, you've never had it?

00:14:19 ◼   ► No, no, I don't think so.

00:14:20 ◼   ► Okay.

00:14:20 ◼   ► I felt it in the past and especially if I was doing any trying to do like meetings,

00:14:25 ◼   ► work related stuff, I would get like an eye strain, but I've not had that at all with

00:14:29 ◼   ► the vision pro, which I've actually been very pleased about.

00:14:32 ◼   ► Like for what I've been able to recognize in myself, using it for extended periods of

00:14:38 ◼   ► time, the only thing is just like, if I just don't want it on my face anymore, it's not

00:14:43 ◼   ► like I feel like, oh, I'm getting a headache or my eyes are hurting, which I've definitely

00:14:46 ◼   ► had with the quest.

00:14:48 ◼   ► So that's actually been good and I expect it is because of the resolution of the screens.

00:14:53 ◼   ► And I will say in app, maybe in fairness to the quest, I've never used another product

00:14:59 ◼   ► with corrective lenses.

00:15:01 ◼   ► This is the first time I've used corrective lenses with a VR headset of any kind.

00:15:05 ◼   ► So that might be contributing to it.

00:15:07 ◼   ► I've spent most of my time with the dual loop, but I have started to try and use the solo

00:15:16 ◼   ► loop a little bit more too, because I kind of just like changed it out immediately, but

00:15:21 ◼   ► I want to get a better sense of using the solo loop too for also for longer periods.

00:15:26 ◼   ► Because I think it's okay.

00:15:28 ◼   ► I think it differs from person to person, but it's definitely a nicer experience to

00:15:33 ◼   ► put on and take off than the dual loop is where you kind of feel like you're strapping

00:15:38 ◼   ► yourself into the thing where the solo loop is way nicer.

00:15:42 ◼   ► And I just wish that there was a combo.

00:15:44 ◼   ► I just wish there was a combo version of that where I could put some kind of top strap on

00:15:48 ◼   ► the solo loop and I'm going to talk in this forever.

00:15:51 ◼   ► Yeah, I've seen a friend of the show Chaos T on Mastodon post a link to a third party

00:15:59 ◼   ► headband, like an additional top strap that you can use with the solo loop.

00:16:05 ◼   ► It was like designed for other headsets, but according to Chaos Picture, which you can

00:16:11 ◼   ► find somewhere on Mastodon, it works just fine with the solo loop.

00:16:14 ◼   ► And that's probably what I'm going to end up doing.

00:16:17 ◼   ► Like, you know, find a compatible top strap that I can use with the solo loop if the solo

00:16:24 ◼   ► loop turns out not to be enough for comfort in longer sessions.

00:16:29 ◼   ► Yeah, it is the most personalized and like specific product Apple's made.

00:16:35 ◼   ► Like basically every Apple Watch can fit basically every person, right?

00:16:39 ◼   ► You're going to have feelings about should I get the small one or the big one or I like

00:16:44 ◼   ► this kind of band material or I don't.

00:16:47 ◼   ► But this is a really different beast.

00:16:49 ◼   ► Like it really is customized to the best work with you.

00:16:54 ◼   ► And Mike, I'll agree with what you said about the eye strain.

00:16:59 ◼   ► It I really feel like working in 90 minutes and it just felt like I sat at my computer

00:17:04 ◼   ► for 90 minutes in a row, which I normally don't do.

00:17:06 ◼   ► I'm normally pretty good about getting up, getting something to drink, you know, checking

00:17:11 ◼   ► on the dog and cat.

00:17:12 ◼   ► Like I try not to just stare at my screen for hours at a time.

00:17:15 ◼   ► And the Vision Pro really felt in line with with that sort of usage.

00:17:22 ◼   ► And I'm also very happy to report because I was I was very nervous about this.

00:17:26 ◼   ► I know I shared it, I think on the show, but definitely shared it with you all that I was

00:17:30 ◼   ► really nervous about motion sickness.

00:17:31 ◼   ► I'm extremely sensitive to it and this product has given me no problems with it whatsoever.

00:17:39 ◼   ► OK, I have a question for you.

00:17:42 ◼   ► Have you watched any of the immersive video?

00:17:44 ◼   ► I have and even with that, I'm OK.

00:17:50 ◼   ► I would not want to get up and walk around with like 3D video playing, I don't think.

00:17:54 ◼   ► But even some of the like NASA JPL, they have an app where like you can put like the Mars

00:18:03 ◼   ► rover in your room and get up and walk around it and like look at pictures of it.

00:18:06 ◼   ► Even that is totally fine.

00:18:09 ◼   ► And so the was at 12 milliseconds of latency, I mean, all that real time processing they're

00:18:15 ◼   ► doing brings it below whatever threshold I'm sensitive to.

00:18:22 ◼   ► And I am so pleased about that.

00:18:23 ◼   ► I was I was genuinely worried that, oh, gosh, if this is the future, I am, you know, I got

00:18:28 ◼   ► to go move and live in the woods.

00:18:29 ◼   ► I think we were all worried about that for you, right?

00:18:32 ◼   ► Because like that if that was the case, that's not awesome.

00:18:36 ◼   ► Now for your I mean, Tim Cook would hate you even more because you'd just be going further

00:18:39 ◼   ► and further into the past.

00:18:41 ◼   ► I know, you know, it doesn't have motion sickness, you know, a PowerBook 180.

00:18:47 ◼   ► Good point.

00:18:48 ◼   ► Good point.

00:18:49 ◼   ► I actually use it in a car, I guess.

00:18:51 ◼   ► Then you might get a lot of battery life.

00:18:54 ◼   ► That's that's well, you don't get a lot of battery life with this thing either.

00:18:56 ◼   ► So that's OK, because I watched.

00:18:59 ◼   ► So they have a bunch of the immersive video stuff, right?

00:19:01 ◼   ► And a lot of it I I've just like dipped in and out.

00:19:05 ◼   ► And there's like a one about dinosaurs.

00:19:08 ◼   ► And it's like, you know, they've made these like CGI dinosaur kind of things.

00:19:12 ◼   ► And the video kind of starts off and it looks like one of those Apple screen savers where

00:19:17 ◼   ► you're kind of like flying towards this island.

00:19:20 ◼   ► And I started playing it and I was like, oh, I don't think that feels very good.

00:19:24 ◼   ► And I just stopped it.

00:19:25 ◼   ► I was like, I'm going to give that a break for a bit and I'm going to try that again.

00:19:29 ◼   ► I've never experienced motion sickness, so I don't know what it feels like.

00:19:32 ◼   ► But I was just like, it's making me feel a little bit unsettled.

00:19:35 ◼   ► It's like, I'll come back to that later on because I was getting ready to record a show.

00:19:38 ◼   ► It's like, I don't want to be like, I would deal with you later.

00:19:42 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:19:42 ◼   ► So I don't know.

00:19:44 ◼   ► I'm going to try more of that out, too.

00:19:45 ◼   ► But I'm genuinely super happy to hear that it hasn't caused you any nausea.

00:19:49 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:19:51 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:19:52 ◼   ► I mean, I think that they they clearly prioritized comfort, both in the physicality of the product

00:20:00 ◼   ► minus the weight and the the experience of of this user interface.

00:20:06 ◼   ► And there's lots of little.

00:20:07 ◼   ► Touches in the OS that make it feel more grounded.

00:20:15 ◼   ► And I think that the simplest example I can come up with

00:20:18 ◼   ► is that Windows put a shadow in your real world environments.

00:20:23 ◼   ► And there's something about that.

00:20:24 ◼   ► I immediately noticed it.

00:20:26 ◼   ► And there's something about it that makes the windows feel planted and more real.

00:20:32 ◼   ► And I think that helps.

00:20:34 ◼   ► I think that helps with like, OK, this is actually an object in my brain, kind of buys

00:20:38 ◼   ► it as an object.

00:20:39 ◼   ► Shadows, man, they're the future.

00:20:43 ◼   ► You sound skeptical.

00:20:44 ◼   ► You sound skeptical, Mike.

00:20:45 ◼   ► You're like, no, no, no.

00:20:47 ◼   ► I hadn't thought of that, but it makes sense to me of like that.

00:20:50 ◼   ► You know, this is all in your brain, right?

00:20:52 ◼   ► And so if your brain is more willing to believe that what you're seeing is real, then it's

00:20:59 ◼   ► not going to freak you out as much that it isn't real, you know?

00:21:03 ◼   ► And so so that it makes a lot of sense to me.

00:21:08 ◼   ► Steven, what do you think of the eye tracking as interface?

00:21:11 ◼   ► I think it's super interesting.

00:21:15 ◼   ► I will say I think it is much better with keyboard and mouse.

00:21:21 ◼   ► The eye tracking works.

00:21:23 ◼   ► I can look at a thing and it registers.

00:21:26 ◼   ► But I think particularly in iPad apps or in compatibility mode, some of that UI is really

00:21:33 ◼   ► small.

00:21:33 ◼   ► Like I was I had calendar open yesterday looking at some events that my wife put on the calendar

00:21:43 ◼   ► and I was going to delete something that I knew weren't doing anymore.

00:21:46 ◼   ► So I looked at it and selected it.

00:21:48 ◼   ► And then you get the little like iOS pop up like copy, move, delete.

00:21:52 ◼   ► I was like, those are tiny targets and I really want to make sure I hit the right one.

00:21:57 ◼   ► So it works and I don't find it that tiring.

00:22:01 ◼   ► But also, I think it is much better with a keyboard and trackpad.

00:22:05 ◼   ► Yeah, I've found the iPad apps to be the heart.

00:22:10 ◼   ► The majority of issues I have had with eye tracking have been when I'm using compatible

00:22:14 ◼   ► iPad apps because I've found a lot of times like I'm trying to look at a button and it's

00:22:20 ◼   ► just not showing me the right one.

00:22:22 ◼   ► And that is not a problem I've had with native apps.

00:22:25 ◼   ► And I wonder if maybe there is just like a scale of buttons and interface elements that

00:22:32 ◼   ► are different.

00:22:33 ◼   ► But like I was trying to do something in Spark.

00:22:35 ◼   ► I was trying to reply to a message and I just no matter what I did, I could not select the

00:22:40 ◼   ► reply button.

00:22:40 ◼   ► It's a catalyst all over again.

00:22:43 ◼   ► Oh yeah, the scaling.

00:22:45 ◼   ► I think it's part of that, like genuinely.

00:22:49 ◼   ► Actually, I think it is too.

00:22:50 ◼   ► You can make targets so specific when they're on a touchscreen or designed for a cursor.

00:22:55 ◼   ► I do kind of wonder like, will compatibility apps get a tweak?

00:23:00 ◼   ► Because Mac Catalyst apps got a tweak, right?

00:23:01 ◼   ► Originally, there was a scaling issue and they fixed it.

00:23:04 ◼   ► So we will see how that goes, I guess.

00:23:07 ◼   ► And I could also imagine maybe some developers would make some changes to their apps to kind

00:23:11 ◼   ► of maybe, you know, like if the difference is you just space these icons out a little

00:23:15 ◼   ► bit more, like it's not going to hurt, right?

00:23:17 ◼   ► Like given on the iPad, if like there's a little space between the reply button and

00:23:21 ◼   ► the forward button, like it's not going to be the worst thing in the world.

00:23:24 ◼   ► I have a question for both of you.

00:23:26 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:23:26 ◼   ► So we've seen, we've tried our fair share of apps in compatibility mode throughout the

00:23:34 ◼   ► course of multiple years, from Rosetta apps on the Mac to iPhone apps on the iPad to iPad

00:23:44 ◼   ► apps on the Mac with Catalyst and now iPad apps on a Vision Pro.

00:23:49 ◼   ► Are these the best compatible apps that you guys have tried so far?

00:23:57 ◼   ► Like if you were to do a tier list of compatible apps through the years, are these the best

00:24:03 ◼   ► ones?

00:24:04 ◼   ► Okay.

00:24:05 ◼   ► So let me actually try and think through these, right?

00:24:07 ◼   ► So iPhone apps on iPad, way better than that.

00:24:10 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:24:11 ◼   ► Okay.

00:24:11 ◼   ► You use Rosetta, like that's the best, right?

00:24:16 ◼   ► Because that, and like Rosetta 2 even better, because it's really, the app is the same,

00:24:22 ◼   ► right?

00:24:22 ◼   ► And so like as a user, it doesn't really affect you so much.

00:24:25 ◼   ► It's complicated.

00:24:28 ◼   ► Like Catalyst apps work about as well as this, I think.

00:24:35 ◼   ► With the Kavi app that sometimes, I would say they're very close to each other.

00:24:41 ◼   ► What I would say is for, in its class, right?

00:24:44 ◼   ► Really the comparison is iPhone apps on iPad, right?

00:24:47 ◼   ► Like that's kind of actually the comparison.

00:24:49 ◼   ► This is significantly better than that because these apps, they fit in and it's fine.

00:24:56 ◼   ► Like, and they work.

00:24:58 ◼   ► I would say I'm happy.

00:24:59 ◼   ► Like I'm happy with the fact that there are some apps that I have on my vision pro.

00:25:04 ◼   ► They're maybe not the best examples of them, but they're there, right?

00:25:08 ◼   ► Like if I couldn't have gotten Spark, I would have been really upset about it.

00:25:12 ◼   ► Like I am furious that there is no Dropbox app.

00:25:15 ◼   ► I am so angry about this.

00:25:18 ◼   ► I have a follow-up question.

00:25:20 ◼   ► So if an iPad app on the iPad supports multiple windows, can you open

00:25:26 ◼   ► multiple iPad windows in VisionOS?

00:25:29 ◼   ► I've not tried this.

00:25:30 ◼   ► See, this is such a Federico thing.

00:25:32 ◼   ► I don't even know if what apps I use have multiple windows.

00:25:35 ◼   ► I forgot about that as a thing a long time ago.

00:25:39 ◼   ► So here's the thing.

00:25:41 ◼   ► So as an experiment, I've been thinking about obviously getting a vision pro.

00:25:47 ◼   ► This is actually a thing that I wrote in the Mon3log that we're sending out.

00:25:53 ◼   ► So I've been using the Mac more because in my mind, I think the vision pro will replace

00:25:59 ◼   ► the iPad pro for me, right?

00:26:01 ◼   ► So if that's going to become a main computer and I'm going to stop using the iPad, I'm

00:26:05 ◼   ► going to have a Mac nearby more often than before, but I'm still going to miss like a

00:26:11 ◼   ► tablet device for like reading in bed or like watching YouTube and stuff.

00:26:16 ◼   ► And so long story short, I set up my iPad mini again.

00:26:19 ◼   ► So like, hey, let me play with the iPad mini.

00:26:21 ◼   ► It's been a few months.

00:26:23 ◼   ► And obviously the iPad mini doesn't have stage manager.

00:26:25 ◼   ► It's got split view.

00:26:26 ◼   ► Just how much better the multi window UI is on split view mode compared to stage manager.

00:26:36 ◼   ► If you recall the shelf, what Apple calls the shelf UI in split view mode, when you

00:26:44 ◼   ► open a window in split view and if that window has multiple windows open, you got a little

00:26:50 ◼   ► tray at the bottom and it shows you the windows that you have open for that app and the titles

00:26:56 ◼   ► of those windows.

00:26:57 ◼   ► Like that's a cool multi window UI.

00:27:00 ◼   ► Too bad that they absolutely botched it with stage manager.

00:27:03 ◼   ► But yeah, so that's why I've been thinking about multiple iPad windows because I've been

00:27:07 ◼   ► trying the iPad mini again.

00:27:08 ◼   ► But you don't know the answer.

00:27:10 ◼   ► So yeah, I mean, I'd be honest with you, Federico, I forgot that it existed.

00:27:14 ◼   ► I never really liked multi window support in iPad OS.

00:27:18 ◼   ► Yeah, I use it exactly one time a month where I have this this monthly meeting and they

00:27:25 ◼   ► send out a PDF of the docket for the meeting and I store that in an Apple note.

00:27:31 ◼   ► Like I keep one for each month and then I take my notes beneath it.

00:27:35 ◼   ► And so I do two windows on my iPad Pro, one with the PDF and notes with like its fancy

00:27:41 ◼   ► preview thing and then one of the same note.

00:27:45 ◼   ► But scroll down where I'm editing and that's the only time I use it.

00:27:49 ◼   ► And once a month I'm like, how do I do this?

00:27:52 ◼   ► Like, how do I make a new note window?

00:27:54 ◼   ► Because I never remember.

00:27:55 ◼   ► I think for me it was just one of these things where there's not enough app support in it.

00:28:00 ◼   ► So I never got used to using it.

00:28:02 ◼   ► And so then if I'm kind of this way, if I don't use something enough, I just forget

00:28:07 ◼   ► that it's like that.

00:28:08 ◼   ► It's there.

00:28:09 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:28:09 ◼   ► And I mean, let's face it, even even with split view, there's there's no it's not a particularly

00:28:14 ◼   ► great design.

00:28:15 ◼   ► Like there's no indicator or anything that tells you, hey, this app has multiple windows

00:28:20 ◼   ► open like on the Mac you got expose, you got a bunch of different ways.

00:28:24 ◼   ► You got a button that says, show me all the windows.

00:28:26 ◼   ► And on iPad you have like a like a mini version of that that doesn't work as well.

00:28:31 ◼   ► But still, if you're working with multiple windows, I think split view makes for a nicer

00:28:37 ◼   ► experience than stage manager, which is ironic, given how stage manager's whole premise is

00:28:42 ◼   ► to work better with multiple windows.

00:28:45 ◼   ► It's confusing and exhausting.

00:28:46 ◼   ► I'm sorry.

00:28:47 ◼   ► Please continue.

00:28:48 ◼   ► I'm happy we're talking about the iPad right now, actually, because it can bring me to,

00:28:52 ◼   ► I think, my biggest take so far with the Vision Pro, which is content consumption versus content

00:28:59 ◼   ► creation.

00:29:00 ◼   ► Right.

00:29:01 ◼   ► Oh, no, you're one of them.

00:29:01 ◼   ► Always the thing with the iPad.

00:29:03 ◼   ► No, but it's always been the thing, right?

00:29:05 ◼   ► Like what kind of device is this?

00:29:06 ◼   ► Is this a content consumption device or content creation device?

00:29:09 ◼   ► I think that the Vision Pro, it is both, but depending on how you're using it.

00:29:15 ◼   ► Like if you're using eye tracking and just your hands, this is content consumption mode,

00:29:21 ◼   ► right?

00:29:21 ◼   ► Like you're watching something, you're doing something because it's light stuff.

00:29:25 ◼   ► Like it's hard.

00:29:26 ◼   ► It's possible to type in text, but it's not easy, right?

00:29:29 ◼   ► Like you're not going to want to write something this way.

00:29:32 ◼   ► You maybe want to send the occasional message this way.

00:29:35 ◼   ► You use it to search for something.

00:29:36 ◼   ► Like it's simple stuff, right?

00:29:38 ◼   ► That is when you're in consumption mode.

00:29:40 ◼   ► But the great thing about the Vision Pro is then you can attach a keyboard and a trackpad

00:29:44 ◼   ► in full creation mode.

00:29:45 ◼   ► You can even bring your Mac into the environment.

00:29:48 ◼   ► Like I feel like this device has both.

00:29:51 ◼   ► It just depends on how you're using it.

00:29:53 ◼   ► Like if you're using a keyboard and a mouse, it's great.

00:29:56 ◼   ► I think a keyboard is basically essential for the use of the Vision Pro.

00:30:00 ◼   ► And I've been mostly using a keyboard and eye tracking and like gestures to control

00:30:05 ◼   ► a lot of stuff.

00:30:06 ◼   ► And that's been really great.

00:30:08 ◼   ► But you can use it without one, but then you're going to be doing more light stuff, I think,

00:30:13 ◼   ► rather than trying to get any work done because it's much more complicated to do when the

00:30:19 ◼   ► keyboard is what it is.

00:30:21 ◼   ► I feel like the thing, Federico, that you've talked about for so long, that the iPad is

00:30:27 ◼   ► a modular computer and you can have this like thin and light tablet and walk around your

00:30:32 ◼   ► house, or you can have a keyboard and trackpad and have it at a desk, hook it up to a display.

00:30:38 ◼   ► Apple Vision Pro takes all of that and just like cranks it to 11.

00:30:43 ◼   ► It is a really different product when you do or don't have a keyboard and trackpad.

00:30:50 ◼   ► And I've got mine together in the 12 South, the Magic, was it Magic Bridge is what they

00:30:53 ◼   ► call it?

00:30:54 ◼   ► Yes.

00:30:54 ◼   ► Yeah, I'm wondering one of those when I get home.

00:30:56 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:30:56 ◼   ► It's just like you can just sit on your couch and have that on your lap and look around.

00:31:00 ◼   ► Even though I've spent a lot of time with mine, I have not installed my computer.

00:31:07 ◼   ► To do app todoist.

00:31:08 ◼   ► My email accounts are set up, but I looked at email one time.

00:31:13 ◼   ► Like I actually think there's something to be said, like what if that what if this is

00:31:19 ◼   ► a device for me the way that I use it where I don't have all my productivity stuff on

00:31:23 ◼   ► it?

00:31:23 ◼   ► Like what if it is?

00:31:24 ◼   ► A lighter, more consumption based computer, and that's fine.

00:31:31 ◼   ► Like the thing that's stupid about that argument is that it's not like one is good and one

00:31:37 ◼   ► is bad.

00:31:38 ◼   ► They're just different, right?

00:31:40 ◼   ► Even on Mac power users that comes out on Sunday, we really debated and planning of

00:31:45 ◼   ► like do we talk about it as an entertainment device first and productivity second or the

00:31:49 ◼   ► other way around?

00:31:50 ◼   ► We end up doing entertainment first.

00:31:51 ◼   ► I guess spoilers for Sunday, but I think that's OK.

00:31:56 ◼   ► I think it's OK if you don't push it as hard as you push a Mac, let alone an iPad.

00:32:01 ◼   ► This episode of Connected is brought to you by ShipStation.

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00:34:28 ◼   ► What is your favorite environment?

00:34:32 ◼   ► Going to the moon, baby.

00:34:34 ◼   ► Yeah, I thought it would be.

00:34:36 ◼   ► Do you like it because it's the moon, or do you like it

00:34:41 ◼   ► irrespective of that?

00:34:42 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:34:42 ◼   ► Like, you just want it to be there because it's the moon?

00:34:45 ◼   ► I mean, it is cool that it's the moon, but I like that it's monochrome, right?

00:34:49 ◼   ► There's really no color on the moon.

00:34:50 ◼   ► It's basically just various shades of gray and silver.

00:34:52 ◼   ► So I like that it's kind of like a muted backdrop for my apps,

00:34:57 ◼   ► but I haven't found, honestly, I haven't found one that I don't like.

00:35:01 ◼   ► Like, I think they're all cool.

00:35:03 ◼   ► I have questions about why a couple of them are labeled as coming soon.

00:35:06 ◼   ► Like, were they not done?

00:35:08 ◼   ► If they weren't not done, why are they in there?

00:35:10 ◼   ► It's very confusing.

00:35:11 ◼   ► Yeah, I bet that wasn't supposed to be in there.

00:35:14 ◼   ► But yeah, I hope that I hope a couple of things for environments.

00:35:20 ◼   ► First of all, that I hope that Apple adds them over time,

00:35:23 ◼   ► like they do the Apple TV screensavers, right?

00:35:25 ◼   ► But secondly, I really want third parties to be able to donate environments to the system.

00:35:34 ◼   ► If you go to Disney Plus, there are, I think they have four environments in there right now.

00:35:38 ◼   ► There's like the Disney Theater, there's Tatooine,

00:35:41 ◼   ► where you're like sitting in a speeder, which is really cool.

00:35:43 ◼   ► I wish that I could have the option at least to bring those environments to the whole system.

00:35:49 ◼   ► Right now, those are just within the application that supplies them.

00:35:52 ◼   ► Maybe that's like asking for third party watch faces, but I hope it's not.

00:35:56 ◼   ► I hope that they, to select partners, I don't expect them to have app store apps

00:36:02 ◼   ► that can do environments, although that could be interesting.

00:36:04 ◼   ► That should 100% be the case.

00:36:06 ◼   ► Like if you are a developer that makes an environment,

00:36:09 ◼   ► I believe you should be able to offer it up to the system,

00:36:12 ◼   ► and then you should just be able to use it wherever you want.

00:36:15 ◼   ► It'd be cool.

00:36:15 ◼   ► It would be really cool.

00:36:16 ◼   ► Why not?

00:36:16 ◼   ► It's just like a desktop background, right?

00:36:19 ◼   ► I know what you mean about the watch face thing,

00:36:22 ◼   ► but Apple doesn't encourage people to make watch faces in their apps.

00:36:25 ◼   ► I actually think that they actively discourage that,

00:36:28 ◼   ► where they have built a system for people to be able to make 3D environments

00:36:32 ◼   ► inside of their applications.

00:36:33 ◼   ► It seems like they're encouraging it and promoting it.

00:36:37 ◼   ► I think they just promote it that the max one is going to get a Game of Thrones throne room

00:36:41 ◼   ► for when House of the Dragon comes back or whatever, right?

00:36:44 ◼   ► And the Disney ones are just incredible.

00:36:49 ◼   ► They're incredible.

00:36:50 ◼   ► So I want to be able to sit in podcasts while sitting in Avengers Tower.

00:36:55 ◼   ► I want to be able to do that.

00:36:56 ◼   ► Why can't I do that?

00:36:57 ◼   ► That one is really cool.

00:36:59 ◼   ► The Disney+ team really killed it with those.

00:37:02 ◼   ► Yeah, they crushed it.

00:37:04 ◼   ► I do have a little bit of an issue with the

00:37:07 ◼   ► way environments interact with the if you're using a physical keyboard.

00:37:12 ◼   ► So with the digital crown, if you turn it, you get two options in your display.

00:37:17 ◼   ► You can change your immersiveness level.

00:37:19 ◼   ► Or if you look at the volume control, it becomes the volume control,

00:37:22 ◼   ► which I think is super smart.

00:37:23 ◼   ► Like, yeah, like bring those two things together.

00:37:26 ◼   ► But the environment, if you crank it to 100,

00:37:32 ◼   ► include everything, including the physical keyboard.

00:37:35 ◼   ► And I think that might be a mistake.

00:37:38 ◼   ► And they know where the keyboard is because if you're using a physical keyboard,

00:37:42 ◼   ► it puts a virtual quick type, quick type bar above it, which is super cool.

00:37:48 ◼   ► And like the best is like merging the physical and digital.

00:37:51 ◼   ► I think honestly, I think the best example across the whole OS

00:37:55 ◼   ► is the quick type bar above my physical keyboard.

00:37:59 ◼   ► But I would like to be able to see my keyboard all the time.

00:38:03 ◼   ► And so the way that I'm doing it is I'm dialing the environment to about 60%,

00:38:07 ◼   ► where it's basically a backdrop for my apps.

00:38:10 ◼   ► But I can still see my lap and, you know, my peripheral vision.

00:38:13 ◼   ► What of it is there is my real world.

00:38:16 ◼   ► And that's fine.

00:38:17 ◼   ► But I would like them to revisit that because I do think seeing your keyboard

00:38:22 ◼   ► is an important thing basically all the time.

00:38:24 ◼   ► I'm kind of really surprised they didn't do it.

00:38:29 ◼   ► It seems like an obvious one.

00:38:30 ◼   ► So on the Quest, you can draw a space.

00:38:34 ◼   ► And you draw out a space on a desk and be like, show me all of this,

00:38:39 ◼   ► which I would also like Apple to do because keyboards are great.

00:38:42 ◼   ► But what if I want to take physical notes?

00:38:44 ◼   ► It would be good to be able to say,

00:38:47 ◼   ► when I'm in this environment, just cut out this area.

00:38:50 ◼   ► Oh, like a sidekick notepad section.

00:38:53 ◼   ► Yeah, sure.

00:38:54 ◼   ► Why not?

00:38:54 ◼   ► Just the name of a product.

00:38:56 ◼   ► Look, Apple, if you want to do an exclusive deal, you know,

00:38:59 ◼   ► I mean, I know a guy, right?

00:39:01 ◼   ► If you just want to bring the sidekick notepad into the vision,

00:39:04 ◼   ► that's totally fine by me.

00:39:06 ◼   ► I do like that there is the option to do the kind of 60%, 70% thing.

00:39:10 ◼   ► And you can see everything that's in front of you and behind you.

00:39:12 ◼   ► So being able to...

00:39:14 ◼   ► That dialing in and out of environments,

00:39:17 ◼   ► I was hearing some people say,

00:39:19 ◼   ► why did they even bother putting the crown on it?

00:39:21 ◼   ► This is why the crown's on it.

00:39:23 ◼   ► That is a really, really cool and important part of this experience, I think,

00:39:28 ◼   ► where you can just do like, basically just in front of you,

00:39:31 ◼   ► and you can see everything else around you,

00:39:33 ◼   ► or you can bring it further and further around you.

00:39:35 ◼   ► I've come to really, really value that.

00:39:38 ◼   ► And actually the majority of time, if I'm doing any work,

00:39:42 ◼   ► then I will be sitting in an environment while I'm doing it,

00:39:44 ◼   ► because it also makes more sense to my brain for window management.

00:39:48 ◼   ► Putting a window far away, they shrink, right?

00:39:52 ◼   ► Which is really cool, so you can kind of tell it's far away.

00:39:55 ◼   ► But if there's an actual wall in front of me,

00:39:58 ◼   ► it looks like the window's just getting smaller rather than going far away.

00:40:01 ◼   ► But if they're in an environment,

00:40:04 ◼   ► then it actually looks like it's going far away, which I prefer.

00:40:07 ◼   ► And also those environments are such high quality.

00:40:12 ◼   ► The subtle movement and sound that is emitted from them,

00:40:17 ◼   ► especially the more that you dial it in, I think it's amazing.

00:40:20 ◼   ► My favorite is Haleakala, which is a mountain in Hawaii.

00:40:23 ◼   ► It's amazing.

00:40:25 ◼   ► And I found myself at one point, I was making some notes and stuff,

00:40:29 ◼   ► and I was just sat and thinking, and I was looking out over the clouds,

00:40:34 ◼   ► and I was like, "Oh, that's a different experience than usually how I would use a computer."

00:40:38 ◼   ► I felt like I could just sit and think and stare off into the distance,

00:40:42 ◼   ► and it was pleasant.

00:40:43 ◼   ► And that was really nice, and is abnormal to how I would normally sit and think.

00:40:51 ◼   ► Because it kind of sets you in a different mind space.

00:40:54 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:40:55 ◼   ► So yeah.

00:40:56 ◼   ► - The last thing I will say for environments,

00:41:00 ◼   ► in addition to giving third parties access to have them,

00:41:05 ◼   ► I think it would be neat to have a customizable one

00:41:08 ◼   ► where I could set a panoramic photo as the background.

00:41:12 ◼   ► And they'd probably have to do some generative AI stuff to make it fully immersive.

00:41:17 ◼   ► But we all have one, right?

00:41:22 ◼   ► Everyone who's ever been to California has a panoramic photo of the San Francisco Bay.

00:41:27 ◼   ► Everyone just does it.

00:41:28 ◼   ► We can all accept it.

00:41:29 ◼   ► I think they even showed it when they introduced panoramic photos to the iPhone.

00:41:33 ◼   ► I have some panoramic photos I'm really happy with.

00:41:37 ◼   ► I've got a bunch from my trip to Colorado a couple years ago with my wife.

00:41:40 ◼   ► It would be cool to be able to set those as a backdrop as well somehow.

00:41:44 ◼   ► And you can kind of fake it with the photo window,

00:41:46 ◼   ► but then things get really weird really quickly.

00:41:48 ◼   ► But more customization to environments I think is only a win for everybody.

00:41:54 ◼   ► - Are these new watch faces?

00:41:56 ◼   ► - Probably.

00:41:57 ◼   ► But I hope that they do more than that.

00:42:01 ◼   ► Actually, just look, I do have a panorama of the Bay.

00:42:04 ◼   ► - Everyone does.

00:42:05 ◼   ► - Like at the Golden Gate Bridge.

00:42:06 ◼   ► - It's the U2 album of panoramic photos.

00:42:10 ◼   ► - They put one on there if you don't have one of your own.

00:42:12 ◼   ► I would say it's an interesting idea.

00:42:15 ◼   ► I do wonder is subtle movement important?

00:42:19 ◼   ► I guess that's what we would find out.

00:42:20 ◼   ► I don't know if I would just want like a static image.

00:42:23 ◼   ► - I don't think there's any movement in the moon one.

00:42:25 ◼   ► - Yeah, you're probably right.

00:42:27 ◼   ► Well, I don't know man.

00:42:29 ◼   ► Maybe there is.

00:42:29 ◼   ► Maybe you get like some people popping in with cameras.

00:42:32 ◼   ► - Oh yeah.

00:42:33 ◼   ► Maybe there's like a shooting star or something.

00:42:35 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:42:36 ◼   ► - No one's ever actually been to the moon.

00:42:38 ◼   ► - Oh my God.

00:42:39 ◼   ► - They should have done a for all mankind tie-in

00:42:43 ◼   ► and put a Russian flag in the moon environment.

00:42:45 ◼   ► - I'm actually really surprised they're on.

00:42:49 ◼   ► I mean, have they made any environments out of the TV properties yet?

00:42:54 ◼   ► - I mean, they should.

00:42:55 ◼   ► If they don't, like let me work in one of the buildings of Foundation

00:42:59 ◼   ► or in Jamestown or whatever.

00:43:01 ◼   ► - Or Silo.

00:43:03 ◼   ► Like let me work underground.

00:43:05 ◼   ► - Definitely not the severance office though, right?

00:43:08 ◼   ► - Oh my God.

00:43:09 ◼   ► - We're not going to do that.

00:43:11 ◼   ► But I would also, I would quite like to sit at Ted Lasso's desk.

00:43:14 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:43:15 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:43:15 ◼   ► - You know?

00:43:16 ◼   ► - I think more of that will come.

00:43:19 ◼   ► I mean, there's so many great tie-ins you could do with that.

00:43:23 ◼   ► And I think it would be cool.

00:43:25 ◼   ► You know, we could all be on a FaceTime call

00:43:26 ◼   ► and pretend we're brother Don, brother Day

00:43:29 ◼   ► and brother Dusk from Foundations.

00:43:30 ◼   ► Like that'd be sick.

00:43:31 ◼   ► - See when you're going to be Dusk.

00:43:33 ◼   ► - No.

00:43:34 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:43:36 ◼   ► - I have not seen Foundation,

00:43:38 ◼   ► so I have no idea what you're talking about.

00:43:39 ◼   ► - Oh no.

00:43:41 ◼   ► - Do you like it?

00:43:42 ◼   ► Because here's my feeling about Foundation.

00:43:44 ◼   ► It looks like too hard sci-fi.

00:43:46 ◼   ► Like I'm not going to understand what's going on.

00:43:47 ◼   ► - It's less hard sci-fi than it looks.

00:43:49 ◼   ► - Oh, okay.

00:43:50 ◼   ► - I bounced off of it the first time.

00:43:52 ◼   ► And then a bunch of people were like,

00:43:53 ◼   ► no, you give it three episodes.

00:43:56 ◼   ► And by the end of it, I could not stop watching.

00:43:58 ◼   ► Like I stayed up basically like three o'clock one morning

00:44:01 ◼   ► finishing the season.

00:44:02 ◼   ► - All right.

00:44:03 ◼   ► - Basically all you need to know is

00:44:05 ◼   ► you just need to watch this hot guy, which is brother Day.

00:44:08 ◼   ► And that's all you need to know.

00:44:10 ◼   ► It's like this hot dude, incredible actor, very hot.

00:44:15 ◼   ► And that's all you need to know.

00:44:16 ◼   ► - Do you like the way he looks by any chance?

00:44:18 ◼   ► - I mean, look at the guy.

00:44:21 ◼   ► He's a very handsome person.

00:44:23 ◼   ► - He is.

00:44:23 ◼   ► He is very handsome.

00:44:25 ◼   ► Speaking of handsome men, can we talk about our personas?

00:44:28 ◼   ► - Sure can.

00:44:29 ◼   ► - Not hot.

00:44:31 ◼   ► - Not great.

00:44:33 ◼   ► - I don't know what you're talking about.

00:44:34 ◼   ► Mine looks really good.

00:44:36 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:44:37 ◼   ► Does your mouth open when you talk?

00:44:38 ◼   ► - Look, sometimes we all have problems.

00:44:42 ◼   ► You know, it was problems, you know?

00:44:44 ◼   ► Nobody's perfect and my mouth doesn't move.

00:44:47 ◼   ► I don't know what to tell you.

00:44:47 ◼   ► - Do you have a picture of your persona

00:44:50 ◼   ► that we could put in the show notes?

00:44:51 ◼   ► - Maybe?

00:44:52 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:44:53 ◼   ► I'll put mine in for sure.

00:44:54 ◼   ► - What we could actually put in the show notes,

00:44:56 ◼   ► we did at the end of the YouTube version of Upgrade this week,

00:45:01 ◼   ► we did a, it was for Upgrade Plus,

00:45:05 ◼   ► but we also put it in the YouTube video

00:45:07 ◼   ► 'cause it just made sense.

00:45:08 ◼   ► An edited together version of a conversation

00:45:10 ◼   ► me and Jason are having and our personas.

00:45:12 ◼   ► So I'll put that in there 'cause that's,

00:45:14 ◼   ► you can actually see the fact that my mouth isn't moving.

00:45:17 ◼   ► - I don't have any video,

00:45:19 ◼   ► but I'll put a picture of my persona in the show notes.

00:45:23 ◼   ► - My God.

00:45:24 ◼   ► - They're okay.

00:45:26 ◼   ► So before we talk about the aesthetics,

00:45:28 ◼   ► I wanna talk about maybe why they did it this way.

00:45:30 ◼   ► And I think there's a huge pro to personas

00:45:35 ◼   ► that you can get on a video call

00:45:38 ◼   ► and you're always going to look the same.

00:45:40 ◼   ► So if you're up really early,

00:45:45 ◼   ► maybe haven't showered yet, but makeup on,

00:45:47 ◼   ► you look the way that you looked when you set it up.

00:45:50 ◼   ► If you had some sort of terrible injury,

00:45:54 ◼   ► you're disfigured.

00:45:56 ◼   ► You look the same that you did when you did your personas.

00:45:58 ◼   ► I think the consistency is good.

00:45:59 ◼   ► - If you are disfigured,

00:46:00 ◼   ► if you have a terrible injury, you're disfigured.

00:46:02 ◼   ► Would you put on the facial pro?

00:46:04 ◼   ► - Oh, I guess that's a good point.

00:46:05 ◼   ► Yeah, it's true.

00:46:07 ◼   ► - Maybe into the long-term.

00:46:09 ◼   ► - Maybe.

00:46:10 ◼   ► Look, I started that example

00:46:11 ◼   ► and didn't know where it was going.

00:46:12 ◼   ► Okay, can we just be honest for a second?

00:46:14 ◼   ► - Yeah, sure.

00:46:14 ◼   ► - The big thing is you always look the same and that's nice.

00:46:17 ◼   ► There are a couple of cons though, I think.

00:46:19 ◼   ► The first one, the biggest one that comes to mind

00:46:22 ◼   ► is that some people wanna be represented

00:46:25 ◼   ► in a different way than they look, right?

00:46:27 ◼   ► And Apple has no affordance for that

00:46:30 ◼   ► either in a Memoji situation, right?

00:46:34 ◼   ► Or I can make an animated version of myself

00:46:36 ◼   ► or that I can take my actual persona

00:46:39 ◼   ► and change things about it.

00:46:40 ◼   ► And I know they want this to be a professional device

00:46:43 ◼   ► for professionals, but the fact that Memoji

00:46:47 ◼   ► at least isn't a fallback for people who don't want

00:46:50 ◼   ► to use a persona really seems like a miss.

00:46:53 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:46:55 ◼   ► I'm an absolute persona lover now, right?

00:46:59 ◼   ► Like I've crossed the Rubicon, I'm here, you know?

00:47:02 ◼   ► I think if they would have done Memoji,

00:47:06 ◼   ► nobody would use persona and they need people to use them

00:47:10 ◼   ► so it can get better.

00:47:11 ◼   ► Because if it can get better, it's going to be incredible.

00:47:14 ◼   ► Because like in the experiences I've had

00:47:16 ◼   ► where people that I know look like the people that they know

00:47:19 ◼   ► and we've had the calls, like I find it very compelling.

00:47:23 ◼   ► Like I had a call with Jason and he was just there

00:47:28 ◼   ► and we were both just working.

00:47:30 ◼   ► Like we just had the persona call running

00:47:32 ◼   ► and we were just doing our work.

00:47:33 ◼   ► And it felt really natural because of like the spatial audio

00:47:38 ◼   ► and stuff like have this conversation with him

00:47:40 ◼   ► and it looked like him.

00:47:41 ◼   ► And I didn't have to worry about how I looked.

00:47:45 ◼   ► I wasn't getting that preview of me in Zoom

00:47:47 ◼   ► which is very distracting and I don't like,

00:47:48 ◼   ► like I actually think that there is something to it

00:47:52 ◼   ► and if they would have just allowed the,

00:47:54 ◼   ► if they would have just done the emoji thing,

00:47:55 ◼   ► everyone would use Memoji

00:47:57 ◼   ► and we're not going to get anywhere with personas.

00:47:59 ◼   ► But like if they can actually take it further than this,

00:48:02 ◼   ► there could be something there, man.

00:48:05 ◼   ► Like I've definitely done a 180 on this.

00:48:09 ◼   ► Did you guys see someone put John's persona in the clouds?

00:48:16 ◼   ► Like he was-

00:48:16 ◼   ► It's one of the funniest things I've ever seen in my entire life.

00:48:19 ◼   ► He looked like Mufasa up there, you know?

00:48:23 ◼   ► That will also be in the show notes.

00:48:25 ◼   ► It's one of the greats, it's one of the great posts on threads.

00:48:29 ◼   ► I think it was on threads, right?

00:48:30 ◼   ► Yes, it was on threads.

00:48:32 ◼   ► It's one of the greatest things of all time.

00:48:34 ◼   ► I love it so much.

00:48:35 ◼   ► I love it so much.

00:48:36 ◼   ► I mean, I get your point, Mike, and I think you're right.

00:48:40 ◼   ► I think people would go to Memoji

00:48:43 ◼   ► because they're not scary looking.

00:48:45 ◼   ► But I do think at some point they should do more options in this thing.

00:48:51 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:48:54 ◼   ► I can't wait to see Federico's.

00:48:55 ◼   ► I just cannot wait.

00:48:56 ◼   ► I'm very curious to see what he does with the beard and the hair and everything.

00:49:01 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:49:02 ◼   ► So as a fault, the mouth of my persona doesn't move,

00:49:07 ◼   ► I've been told, because of there are problems with beards.

00:49:11 ◼   ► And the issue isn't the scanning of the persona,

00:49:14 ◼   ► it's what the system can interpret of my mouth moving.

00:49:18 ◼   ► And I expect that my mustache is covering my lips maybe from the downward camera.

00:49:24 ◼   ► So it's like struggling to see me.

00:49:25 ◼   ► I expect that with time and more data and more information,

00:49:30 ◼   ► they'll be able to improve it.

00:49:31 ◼   ► And we'll mention this later on too,

00:49:33 ◼   ► but there is already beta 1.1 out, which is amazing.

00:49:38 ◼   ► I'm really pleased about that.

00:49:39 ◼   ► But one of the things they make you do when you upgrade to 1.1 is rescan your persona.

00:49:45 ◼   ► And there have been people that have been showing examples of the before and after.

00:49:48 ◼   ► It looks better.

00:49:49 ◼   ► So maybe they've applied some more information to this.

00:49:52 ◼   ► I'll be very keen to try it, but I'm definitely not putting the beta on my face computer.

00:49:56 ◼   ► Like I'm not doing that.

00:49:58 ◼   ► So we'll wait and see.

00:50:00 ◼   ► I am curious to know if anybody who listens to this show happens to have any face tattoos.

00:50:06 ◼   ► I don't.

00:50:07 ◼   ► But I am curious to know how it handles face tattoos.

00:50:12 ◼   ► If they just try and if they scan those and actually recreate them on the persona or not.

00:50:20 ◼   ► Like how do they come out?

00:50:22 ◼   ► So I bet they give it a go.

00:50:24 ◼   ► I mean, because they do facial hair and like marks on my face.

00:50:28 ◼   ► Like they are replicated.

00:50:29 ◼   ► Exactly.

00:50:30 ◼   ► Interesting.

00:50:30 ◼   ► So show us your face tattoos.

00:50:32 ◼   ► If you have any.

00:50:33 ◼   ► They do not pick up hand tattoos though.

00:50:35 ◼   ► My wedding band is tattooed on and that is not in my persona's hands.

00:50:39 ◼   ► What?

00:50:39 ◼   ► Oh, interesting.

00:50:42 ◼   ► So my right hand is going to look without a tattoo?

00:50:46 ◼   ► I think so.

00:50:47 ◼   ► I mean, we'll find out.

00:50:48 ◼   ► Maybe the ring is just not big enough,

00:50:50 ◼   ► but even other people who like I had a call with Quinn Nelson, whose persona is real upsetting.

00:50:57 ◼   ► His looks better.

00:50:57 ◼   ► So in the Mac Roomers Art Quarter talking about 1.1, they show images of Quinn's persona.

00:51:05 ◼   ► Okay.

00:51:05 ◼   ► And the new one looks significantly better than the old one.

00:51:09 ◼   ► Good.

00:51:10 ◼   ► But when we were on the call, that's where I first noticed that my tattooed wedding band wasn't

00:51:16 ◼   ► visible and he pulled his hands up and he was wearing his wedding band when he scanned his

00:51:20 ◼   ► hands and set everything up and his regular like metal wedding band also wasn't there.

00:51:24 ◼   ► So the hands may be treated differently than the face.

00:51:27 ◼   ► They probably are.

00:51:28 ◼   ► But yeah, Federico, that's what I want to know.

00:51:30 ◼   ► In addition to how your persona looks, I want to know how it treats your hand tattoo because

00:51:34 ◼   ► maybe the facial tracking.

00:51:37 ◼   ► I mean, clearly the facial tracking is more important than like mapping an image of a

00:51:41 ◼   ► hand onto a virtual hand.

00:51:42 ◼   ► And honestly, you don't see the hands very much in a FaceTime call unless you're, I think,

00:51:48 ◼   ► really like going to town on the gesturing because they got to be pretty close to your

00:51:51 ◼   ► face, like pretty close to your face before the Apple Vision Pro will insert them into

00:51:57 ◼   ► your persona.

00:51:59 ◼   ► So maybe they just are treating them secondary because it's not as important.

00:52:02 ◼   ► I have a question that came, well, it's not my question.

00:52:05 ◼   ► It came from GSLite who asked the two of us, my main question is, does the Apple Vision

00:52:11 ◼   ► Pro elicit the same sense of joy and wonder that the iPhone did when you first used one?

00:52:15 ◼   ► Good question.

00:52:17 ◼   ► It's a very good question.

00:52:18 ◼   ► You tell me.

00:52:20 ◼   ► Well, I want, okay, I'll answer first and I'll say yes, it does.

00:52:24 ◼   ► This thing, I don't know if I've ever used a computer before where just the mere using

00:52:33 ◼   ► of the computer was so distracting I would forget what I was doing.

00:52:36 ◼   ► Like my first day, I could not focus on anything because everything was grabbing my attention

00:52:43 ◼   ► and I wanted to do the first thing I could see.

00:52:46 ◼   ► I'd be like, all right, I've just downloaded Fantastic How, let me go set that up.

00:52:49 ◼   ► And I'm like, swipe, and I'm like, whoa, what's that?

00:52:51 ◼   ► And I go do something else, right?

00:52:53 ◼   ► Like it is completely overwhelming in the best possible ways.

00:52:58 ◼   ► It is so exciting.

00:52:59 ◼   ► If you use this thing for an hour, I genuinely don't understand how you couldn't come away

00:53:05 ◼   ► just like brimming with excitement and possibility about what this could do.

00:53:09 ◼   ► Like it's so incredible, it's such high fidelity things work in such incredible ways.

00:53:19 ◼   ► Like the fact that most of the time it feels like your mind is being read by the computer

00:53:23 ◼   ► as to what you're wanting to do because the eye tracking is so good.

00:53:25 ◼   ► The gestures are so natural.

00:53:28 ◼   ► Like everybody said it now, including Apple, but like this just feels like the future.

00:53:35 ◼   ► Like, and I don't remember if the iPhone felt like that.

00:53:38 ◼   ► Like the iPhone felt like a huge leap forward in what a smartphone could be.

00:53:44 ◼   ► But there were, you know, you could see where it was improving on the existing formulas.

00:53:50 ◼   ► I know that VR headsets exist.

00:53:53 ◼   ► I know that AR exists.

00:53:54 ◼   ► This thing is just so far ahead of the competition for what I have used.

00:54:00 ◼   ► It really feels like something so exciting and joyful.

00:54:06 ◼   ► Like, so yes, I would say it is the most positive experience I've had for a piece of technology

00:54:12 ◼   ► since the iPhone, for sure.

00:54:13 ◼   ► I think I could agree with that.

00:54:16 ◼   ► The iPad and Apple Watch were, you know, a lesser extent of exciting.

00:54:23 ◼   ► I think there's something different about this though, where the iPhone is like,

00:54:26 ◼   ► the iPhone was the first computer you could always have with you in a way that other smartphones

00:54:32 ◼   ► and even notebooks and PDAs never really matched.

00:54:38 ◼   ► Like never really got there.

00:54:39 ◼   ► It's like the computer that's always with you.

00:54:41 ◼   ► So the iPhone, I think, still stands alone.

00:54:45 ◼   ► It's the peak.

00:54:47 ◼   ► It's the high point, I think, in excitement of a new device.

00:54:50 ◼   ► But this, I think, is a second.

00:54:53 ◼   ► It's very different, right?

00:54:54 ◼   ► It's not going to be a computer you take everywhere with you, at least I think for a long time.

00:54:58 ◼   ► But what it can do and how it does it are so different.

00:55:04 ◼   ► And Mike, I totally agree with you.

00:55:05 ◼   ► I had the same feeling of kind of being kind of being overwhelmed and exploring it.

00:55:13 ◼   ► So the second day, the Saturday I had it, I was going to come out to my office and I

00:55:18 ◼   ► was going to have two FaceTime calls with some people just to kind of talk about it.

00:55:21 ◼   ► You know, friends in the industry, like just kind of sharing ideas and things.

00:55:25 ◼   ► And after those FaceTime calls, I just, you know, FaceTime closed and I was like kind

00:55:31 ◼   ► of just be bopping around and then I realized like 45 minutes had passed.

00:55:35 ◼   ► I was like, oh, gosh, I was supposed to eat dinner half an hour ago.

00:55:38 ◼   ► Like there is something about it that that is very enticing and exciting.

00:55:44 ◼   ► That is, you know, as you get to know it, you know, that that freshness wears off some.

00:55:48 ◼   ► But it is it is fundamentally different than a lot of other things anyone's done.

00:55:54 ◼   ► I can't wait for you to get yours Federico.

00:55:56 ◼   ► Yeah, I'm just here and just listening to you guys are like, man, I really wish I had

00:56:01 ◼   ► one.

00:56:01 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't even know what to say, because like that idea of using the future of a computer

00:56:12 ◼   ► now.

00:56:13 ◼   ► And so what Steven said about like it takes that idea of the iPad being sort of this like

00:56:19 ◼   ► modular experience that can do both consumption and creation in the same device, depending

00:56:25 ◼   ► on how you use it.

00:56:26 ◼   ► And it sort of cranks it up to 11.

00:56:27 ◼   ► Like I'm so on board with that idea that this all makes me very optimistic and very excited

00:56:35 ◼   ► to get mine.

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00:59:15 ◼   ► Steven, you are a power user of the Macintosh.

00:59:20 ◼   ► You are well known for this across the internet.

00:59:23 ◼   ► Do you feel like you're able to use your Macintosh powerfully whilst inside of the Vision Pro?

00:59:28 ◼   ► I do.

00:59:30 ◼   ► And I find this perhaps the most interesting thing about this platform

00:59:36 ◼   ► is that in addition to iPad apps being an escape hatch for native Vision OS apps,

00:59:42 ◼   ► the whole freaking Macintosh is the escape hatch for the whole platform.

00:59:47 ◼   ► It's so fascinating because they've never gone that far before.

00:59:52 ◼   ► Like, look, the iPad Pro and the MacBook Air, they're the same computer.

00:59:56 ◼   ► Like the hardware is the same.

00:59:58 ◼   ► It's a decision Apple makes not to let Mac OS run on an iPad.

01:00:03 ◼   ► And that's a topic for a different day.

01:00:05 ◼   ► But in Vision Pro, you just have like in our Vision OS,

01:00:10 ◼   ► you just have the ability to bring your whole Mac in.

01:00:13 ◼   ► And it means that you can do everything from like command line stuff and Apple script

01:00:20 ◼   ► all the way up through beautifully rendered 3D video all on one device.

01:00:25 ◼   ► Now, I guess it's two devices, because you got to have a Mac there.

01:00:29 ◼   ► But it's super interesting.

01:00:31 ◼   ► And I think it really shows that Apple views this as a work device

01:00:34 ◼   ► or they want to show it as a productivity device, because, hey, you can you can dump

01:00:40 ◼   ► out to Final Cut Pro or Logic or desktop versions of your apps or the freaking command line.

01:00:48 ◼   ► It's all there.

01:00:49 ◼   ► It's wild.

01:00:50 ◼   ► It's a statement that I am pleased with, but I don't understand.

01:00:56 ◼   ► Right.

01:00:57 ◼   ► Like, why does the Vision Pro get this, but the iPad never got this?

01:01:01 ◼   ► That's the part that I keep getting stuck on.

01:01:05 ◼   ► Like, I'm so happy they did it because it elevates this platform by allowing you to

01:01:12 ◼   ► be able to get something done if you need to, you know, like and that's really great.

01:01:17 ◼   ► But like, it's just I'm just not sure why they made the choice, even though I'm thrilled

01:01:24 ◼   ► that they did.

01:01:24 ◼   ► But it was a bold choice.

01:01:27 ◼   ► I reckon it was probably one of these things that was hotly argued.

01:01:30 ◼   ► And I think the right team won.

01:01:32 ◼   ► But I don't.

01:01:34 ◼   ► You know, we all sit and we obviously spend a lot of time in our lives trying to intuit

01:01:41 ◼   ► the decisions that Apple makes.

01:01:43 ◼   ► Like, we try and think this stuff through.

01:01:45 ◼   ► I think I've heard Jason call it "coupatinology" or something in the past.

01:01:51 ◼   ► And I don't...

01:01:53 ◼   ► "coupatinology"?

01:01:54 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:01:55 ◼   ► But I don't...

01:01:55 ◼   ► I just can't get my head around this one.

01:01:58 ◼   ► I'm so happy they did it, but I don't know why they did it at the same time or like why

01:02:02 ◼   ► they decided to make the choice here, but they've never done it before.

01:02:05 ◼   ► So here's the real question.

01:02:06 ◼   ► If the iPad were new today, would the Mac OS escape hatch be on the iPad if it was a

01:02:16 ◼   ► new platform?

01:02:17 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:02:18 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:02:19 ◼   ► Here's a follow up question.

01:02:22 ◼   ► If you were to release a new iPad Pro, likely more expensive after years of no upgrades

01:02:30 ◼   ► and most likely no visible changes in iPad OS this spring, would you do it on a new iPad

01:02:38 ◼   ► Pro?

01:02:39 ◼   ► If you had one shot, one opportunity.

01:02:42 ◼   ► Mom's spaghetti.

01:02:45 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:02:48 ◼   ► Like, it seems so obvious, right?

01:02:50 ◼   ► Like, why would you not do it, but they haven't done it and I doubt they're going to do it.

01:02:55 ◼   ► I genuinely as well, like, I'm not sure going into the future that there is a world in which

01:03:02 ◼   ► both the iPad and the Vision Pro exist.

01:03:04 ◼   ► Like, I am not sure because like for me, I could imagine everything I do on my iPad to

01:03:13 ◼   ► be done on a device like this one instead.

01:03:15 ◼   ► It is the best iPad in a way.

01:03:21 ◼   ► Bold.

01:03:21 ◼   ► Federico, please put a pin in that.

01:03:23 ◼   ► I want to hear your thought on that later on.

01:03:25 ◼   ► Like, I don't disagree with you, Stephen.

01:03:27 ◼   ► Like, I'm just like really intrigued as to what Federico thinks about that statement.

01:03:31 ◼   ► Yeah, now this is sort of the angle that I think I'm working towards.

01:03:34 ◼   ► Like, is this, is the Vision Pro the best iPad Pro money can buy right now in the United

01:03:39 ◼   ► States?

01:03:40 ◼   ► Yeah, like, yeah, probably.

01:03:44 ◼   ► Because I mean, it's a new platform based on iPad OS.

01:03:48 ◼   ► It runs iPad apps with an asterisk, some of them.

01:03:52 ◼   ► And it doesn't have the limitations of iPad OS when it comes to windows of apps around

01:03:59 ◼   ► you.

01:04:00 ◼   ► And you can make them bigger and open as many as you want.

01:04:03 ◼   ► Like, the only difference realistically is that obviously this is something you put on

01:04:07 ◼   ► your face and an iPad is something that you can hold, you know, without having to wear

01:04:13 ◼   ► a face computer.

01:04:14 ◼   ► But yeah, like that idea of is this the best iPad?

01:04:19 ◼   ► It's really intriguing, I think.

01:04:22 ◼   ► But there's that difference, right?

01:04:27 ◼   ► Why?

01:04:27 ◼   ► So you built this new platform.

01:04:31 ◼   ► It's version 1.0.

01:04:32 ◼   ► And from the get go, you knew that you needed to have an escape hatch for Mac OS.

01:04:39 ◼   ► And a pretty good one at that.

01:04:40 ◼   ► Like, from the looks of it, it does seem like a better version of Sidecar or just, you know,

01:04:48 ◼   ► using screen sharing.

01:04:50 ◼   ► There's something different about having the Mac as a window in your environment rather

01:04:55 ◼   ► than like using the two devices.

01:04:57 ◼   ► Then I don't even need to be sitting in front of the Mac anymore.

01:05:01 ◼   ► I can get a walk around, I can take it with me.

01:05:03 ◼   ► Like, there can just be a Mac in the room, and I can then just grab it and move it, go

01:05:07 ◼   ► sit over there.

01:05:07 ◼   ► Like, it is a different feeling to it being like this window that exists.

01:05:12 ◼   ► And then I can use the keyboard and trackpad or keyboard and mouse to control all of my

01:05:17 ◼   ► apps and windows.

01:05:18 ◼   ► And it's all in one machine rather than looking across multiple machines.

01:05:22 ◼   ► There's different ways.

01:05:23 ◼   ► There is a fine line there, but it is, in my opinion, a superior experience than using

01:05:29 ◼   ► something like Sidecar or the display thing that they have like this one.

01:05:33 ◼   ► It definitely works better, I think.

01:05:37 ◼   ► Yeah, super interesting from the sort of product strategy perspective.

01:05:44 ◼   ► Like, obviously, you know, the text is not as clear as it is in a VisionOS app, both

01:05:52 ◼   ► a native app or a compatibility app, because you're still, no, you're still dealing

01:05:57 ◼   ► with basically streaming it.

01:05:59 ◼   ► But the latency I've found to be incredible, and I'm on hotel Wi-Fi, right?

01:06:03 ◼   ► Like, the latency is something I don't even notice.

01:06:07 ◼   ► It feels like everything exactly one to one.

01:06:09 ◼   ► It doesn't feel to me like I'm streaming this thing over some kind of connection.

01:06:14 ◼   ► It might not even be using the Wi-Fi.

01:06:17 ◼   ► It might be like just directly communicating.

01:06:19 ◼   ► I don't know how it works.

01:06:20 ◼   ► If anybody does know, I would be very keen to understand how it works.

01:06:24 ◼   ► I guess it's not using the, anyway.

01:06:27 ◼   ► But it's very impressive.

01:06:30 ◼   ► And again, it's one of those things where like, if this is your 1.0 of what this feature

01:06:36 ◼   ► can be, like, excellent.

01:06:38 ◼   ► And that's like an overall thing, I think, for this device in general.

01:06:42 ◼   ► This is obviously a 1.0.

01:06:44 ◼   ► This is a very strong 1.0.

01:06:47 ◼   ► Like, so much of it is so good, and so much of it is good, but you can very clearly see

01:06:55 ◼   ► how it can be better.

01:06:56 ◼   ► And I think for that as a 1.0 is great.

01:06:59 ◼   ► Like, this isn't a 1.0 where it's like, oh, this thing is just broken.

01:07:02 ◼   ► Like, it is broken.

01:07:03 ◼   ► Like, I keep comparing it to the Apple Watch, right?

01:07:05 ◼   ► Like, well, the first Apple Watch was like, oh, you've done this wrong.

01:07:10 ◼   ► Like, we shouldn't be streaming apps from the phone to the watch.

01:07:14 ◼   ► Like, that wasn't right.

01:07:16 ◼   ► And Apple fixed it quickly, right?

01:07:18 ◼   ► Like, they handled it.

01:07:19 ◼   ► The hardware wasn't strong, powerful enough.

01:07:21 ◼   ► And then, so therefore, the OS was just not good enough.

01:07:25 ◼   ► Everything took too long.

01:07:26 ◼   ► It was not a good experience.

01:07:28 ◼   ► And they fixed it, and now look where the Apple Watch is.

01:07:30 ◼   ► The Vision Pro is as good as a 1.0 for a device like this, as I think you could hope for,

01:07:37 ◼   ► I think.

01:07:37 ◼   ► And as a foundation to build on, it's very exciting.

01:07:41 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:07:41 ◼   ► I mean, there are a few weird things here and there.

01:07:43 ◼   ► Like, I know I and some of the people have had issues with iMessage syncing and some

01:07:48 ◼   ► other things that, like, iMessage syncing, I think, in iCloud is turned off by default

01:07:53 ◼   ► when you set it up.

01:07:54 ◼   ► Maybe that's how new iPhones and iPads are too.

01:07:57 ◼   ► But it struck me as odd.

01:07:58 ◼   ► I started going in like, repin, all my favorites.

01:08:00 ◼   ► I've had an issue, and I don't know what causes it.

01:08:05 ◼   ► But sometimes, like, if I'm entering--

01:08:07 ◼   ► I guess I do know what causes it.

01:08:08 ◼   ► Sometimes entering a password from 1Password via the keyboard, like the QuickType thing,

01:08:14 ◼   ► I get a modal window.

01:08:16 ◼   ► Like, it was just like the bronze kind of glossy window.

01:08:19 ◼   ► And I can quit all the apps, and it just stays there until I reboot the device.

01:08:24 ◼   ► Like, it is a 1-point error.

01:08:28 ◼   ► Yeah, like, also, if you need to select a password, right, from a-- you know, like,

01:08:32 ◼   ► you sometimes have to select a different password, and it pops up that scrollable window.

01:08:37 ◼   ► That window doesn't scroll.

01:08:38 ◼   ► So if you have too many passwords, you just can't scroll it.

01:08:42 ◼   ► Or like, the thing me and Jason was talking about, like, the software keyboard appears

01:08:46 ◼   ► way too often, and it's always blocking the text entry window.

01:08:50 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:08:50 ◼   ► Which is just so-- but all of this stuff is like, you can just--

01:08:54 ◼   ► you can see how all of that is fixable.

01:08:56 ◼   ► 100%.

01:08:56 ◼   ► These are just like, little weird things that they probably know were there, but they had

01:09:01 ◼   ► to ship it, right?

01:09:02 ◼   ► And now they're-- like, I'm so happy that there is a 1.1 already.

01:09:07 ◼   ► It's been out for like three days, right?

01:09:09 ◼   ► So like, you can tell they're going to keep revising on this, and then probably in June,

01:09:12 ◼   ► we're going to see VisionOS 2, which I'm sure will have stuff like the ability to rearrange

01:09:18 ◼   ► the app icons.

01:09:19 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

01:09:20 ◼   ► Yeah, that's hilarious to me.

01:09:22 ◼   ► Why can't I delete mail?

01:09:23 ◼   ► Let me delete the mail app.

01:09:25 ◼   ► I can't do it.

01:09:25 ◼   ► I don't want the mail app.

01:09:27 ◼   ► Let me get rid of it, you know?

01:09:28 ◼   ► And like, notifications on this device, not very good experience.

01:09:31 ◼   ► Like, that needs work.

01:09:33 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:09:33 ◼   ► Like, the notification center is like, clunky.

01:09:37 ◼   ► It's maybe-- unbelievably, if you could imagine, the worst version of notification center on

01:09:43 ◼   ► any Apple product.

01:09:43 ◼   ► Ha ha ha.

01:09:44 ◼   ► Yes, they found a new bad way to do it, right?

01:09:46 ◼   ► Like, it's just not a good experience.

01:09:48 ◼   ► It feels like you're kind of dealing with pieces of paper that you have to remove, because

01:09:52 ◼   ► they're all too big, and it's clunky.

01:09:54 ◼   ► But like, this is all just fixable stuff.

01:09:58 ◼   ► This is all improvable stuff.

01:09:59 ◼   ► But like, the foundation is just so good.

01:10:01 ◼   ► Yeah, it's clear this has been in the works for a really long time.

01:10:06 ◼   ► And while it does come with some inherent limitations, basing it on iPadOS just seems

01:10:14 ◼   ► like what they've done, super smart, right?

01:10:18 ◼   ► That you get a lot of this stuff.

01:10:20 ◼   ► It's instantly familiar in a way.

01:10:22 ◼   ► Even though you're placing Windows in space, and some of the UI stuff is-- you got to get

01:10:26 ◼   ► used to things like, oh, going into settings and finding something.

01:10:31 ◼   ► Like, oh, Apple's strategy of merging these things is starting to pay off a little bit.

01:10:35 ◼   ► Like, settings on the Mac is still bad.

01:10:37 ◼   ► But at least I've gotten used to it.

01:10:40 ◼   ► And when I went into settings on VisionOS, like, oh, I know what this is.

01:10:44 ◼   ► You know, I know where things are.

01:10:47 ◼   ► And that's really, I think, one of the strongest things that this product has over its competitors.

01:10:54 ◼   ► Like, the pass-through is awesome.

01:10:56 ◼   ► Tracking is awesome, all that stuff.

01:10:58 ◼   ► But if you're in the Apple ecosystem, all of your stuff is just here, right?

01:11:03 ◼   ► You sign in, and your photos, and your notes, and your browsing history, like, all that

01:11:08 ◼   ► stuff is there.

01:11:09 ◼   ► And it makes it easier to integrate the Vision Pro and VisionOS apps into your existing workflow,

01:11:19 ◼   ► because it's already the ecosystem you're in, right?

01:11:23 ◼   ► And bringing the Mac into it the way they do, it extends it even further.

01:11:27 ◼   ► But that's really Apple's bread and butter now, is that all of these platforms work together,

01:11:36 ◼   ► and you can kind of move seamlessly between them.

01:11:40 ◼   ► And that, I think, does set this product apart a little bit from some of the others.

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01:13:34 ◼   ► All right, let's do some quick follow up-y roundup things before we finish today about

01:13:42 ◼   ► the Vision Pro.

01:13:43 ◼   ► So there was a developer strap headband thing.

01:13:48 ◼   ► So it's basically you can pop off the side, one of the side bands, which has got the audio

01:13:54 ◼   ► pods on it.

01:13:55 ◼   ► And it has kind of what looks like a second battery connector, but there's a USB dongle

01:14:03 ◼   ► hanging off the side.

01:14:04 ◼   ► And this will allow you to be able to plug your Vision Pro into your Mac.

01:14:13 ◼   ► And ostensibly, this is for developers to be able to put builds of their apps on it

01:14:18 ◼   ► very quickly, right?

01:14:19 ◼   ► Like rather than it being like a thing you're doing by streaming that you can like send

01:14:25 ◼   ► it over Wi-Fi basically, that you can do right now, but this will allow you to do that.

01:14:29 ◼   ► But it also has some additional features.

01:14:31 ◼   ► I'm going to read a couple of quotes here.

01:14:33 ◼   ► This is from @12jaun.

01:14:34 ◼   ► "Initial thoughts on the Vision Pro USB-C's are strapped from very preliminary testing.

01:14:41 ◼   ► It can't be connected to Ethernet with a dongle, nor can you see the file system or

01:14:46 ◼   ► piggyback in the internet connection of a Mac that you plug into.

01:14:49 ◼   ► However, it makes taking screenshots faster and easier."

01:14:52 ◼   ► So for @12jaun, it's very worth it, and from a 9to5Mac article saying, "The developer strap

01:14:57 ◼   ► also lets developers capture a direct video feed from Apple Vision Pro via a wired USB-C

01:15:02 ◼   ► connection using Reality Composer Pro."

01:15:05 ◼   ► So it has some benefits, and I guess it's also good for developers when it comes to

01:15:09 ◼   ► putting together screenshots and stuff like that, because it's kind of weird.

01:15:13 ◼   ► Like when you take a screenshot on this thing, it's kind of always off angle.

01:15:15 ◼   ► There's like a strange thing going on there.

01:15:18 ◼   ► So I guess this makes that easier.

01:15:21 ◼   ► You get the foveated rendering as well, where just whatever they were looking at at the

01:15:26 ◼   ► time is in focus, and the rest is pretty bad.

01:15:29 ◼   ► Does this stop that from happening?

01:15:32 ◼   ► No, it doesn't.

01:15:33 ◼   ► And also, you can use the--

01:15:36 ◼   ► Well, I know that it doesn't if you use QuickTime, because if you use the USB adapter, the Vision

01:15:43 ◼   ► Pro also shows up as a video feed, like as a video source in QuickTime.

01:15:47 ◼   ► But if you take a video there in QuickTime, it's also foveated.

01:15:52 ◼   ► So at least there, it doesn't fix it.

01:15:55 ◼   ► I'm not sure about Reality Composer.

01:15:57 ◼   ► I mean, it makes sense to me that it wouldn't fix it, because it's what the system is rendering.

01:16:03 ◼   ► Like, I don't think that there is another way to capture the video.

01:16:06 ◼   ► Like, the system isn't rendering the entire field of view 100% of the time.

01:16:12 ◼   ► I don't think it's powerful enough to do that.

01:16:13 ◼   ► You can force it if you're capturing through Xcode.

01:16:17 ◼   ► But from what I have seen and heard, it is extremely stuttery.

01:16:24 ◼   ► Like, you don't want to do video with it.

01:16:26 ◼   ► It's really pushing the hardware further than it's meant to be.

01:16:30 ◼   ► Like, with foveated rendering, it's just what is near you or near your vision is sharp,

01:16:35 ◼   ► and the rest falls off.

01:16:36 ◼   ► And like, I don't notice it while using the product.

01:16:40 ◼   ► Like, I don't-- I don't like, oh, my peripheral vision is blurry.

01:16:43 ◼   ► Like, because that's how your eyes actually work, right?

01:16:44 ◼   ► Like, I'm looking straight ahead.

01:16:45 ◼   ► >> I notice it when I'm using the Mac.

01:16:47 ◼   ► When I'm using the Mac inside of the Vision Pro, I see it.

01:16:50 ◼   ► But when I'm using Vision stuff, I don't see it.

01:16:52 ◼   ► This, to me, feels like one of those things, like, what are you going to make better in

01:16:55 ◼   ► Vision Pro 2, Vision Pro 3?

01:16:57 ◼   ► It will get more powerful, so they won't need to be so restrictive on this.

01:17:00 ◼   ► >> Yeah, maybe so.

01:17:01 ◼   ► But it is-- it does mean the screenshot situation is pretty janky.

01:17:09 ◼   ► I know a lot of developers have been using the simulator for their screenshots.

01:17:13 ◼   ► I think we'll see a lot of them maybe even come up with, like, actual other renders to

01:17:18 ◼   ► show off their apps, because it's a bit weird.

01:17:20 ◼   ► >> I'm loving this feedback here from developer Stephen Hackett.

01:17:24 ◼   ► Like, how on earth does he know this?

01:17:27 ◼   ► >> Yeah, I don't know.

01:17:28 ◼   ► How would you--

01:17:29 ◼   ► >> I know that a lot of developers--

01:17:31 ◼   ► >> You're allowed to say.

01:17:32 ◼   ► We know you do.

01:17:33 ◼   ► We know what you do.

01:17:34 ◼   ► >> Oh, oh, oh, I get-- no, I get to do it here.

01:17:36 ◼   ► Disclosure, in addition to owning Half of Relay FM, I also work with _DavidSmith on his apps,

01:17:42 ◼   ► including Widgetsmith, Sleep++, and Podometer++.

01:17:44 ◼   ► >> Which is how you could possibly know about how screenshots are taken and what they look

01:17:48 ◼   ► like and the fact that maybe you can turn out--

01:17:50 ◼   ► >> It's true.

01:17:50 ◼   ► I also know that building an app the size of Widgetsmith on an M2 Pro, it works, you

01:17:57 ◼   ► know?

01:17:58 ◼   ► It turns out Xcode, good use for more computing power.

01:18:01 ◼   ► >> Like, for example, if you wanted, like, an M3 Ultra Max Studio,

01:18:06 ◼   ► potentially.

01:18:07 ◼   ► >> Nah, interesting.

01:18:08 ◼   ► >> No, I'm not buying any computers.

01:18:09 ◼   ► M2 Pro.

01:18:10 ◼   ► >> Yeah, it was--

01:18:11 ◼   ► >> Ride or die, baby.

01:18:12 ◼   ► >> iFixit has split this thing apart, cracked it open, and taken a look at the insides,

01:18:19 ◼   ► and there's a lot of insides.

01:18:20 ◼   ► >> I, in my link to this on 512, I wrote, I've been looking forward to this blog post

01:18:25 ◼   ► since June.

01:18:26 ◼   ► I love hardware.

01:18:27 ◼   ► The density, the raw density of what is in this headset is, like, the exact opposite

01:18:34 ◼   ► of the Apple Silicon Mac Pro, which is a box full of air unless you put cards in it.

01:18:38 ◼   ► This thing is unbelievably dense, and there's a lot of smart things about the design.

01:18:44 ◼   ► The most interesting one to me is that, look, this thing puts off heat.

01:18:49 ◼   ► I don't really feel it on my face, but if you take it off, it's warm.

01:18:53 ◼   ► Like, it is emanating heat.

01:18:54 ◼   ► It's got fans and big vents.

01:18:56 ◼   ► But all the hot stuff is as far away from your eyes as it can be.

01:19:02 ◼   ► Like, you have the screens, and then you have, like, a mid-plate thing, and then the processors

01:19:06 ◼   ► are on the other side.

01:19:07 ◼   ► Like, they're doing what they can to keep the heat away from your face.

01:19:10 ◼   ► But, man, the work that must have gone into this, like, I was stunned scrolling through

01:19:16 ◼   ► the iFixit thing and then watching the video.

01:19:18 ◼   ► There is how much stuff is in this headset.

01:19:22 ◼   ► It's what they're best at.

01:19:23 ◼   ► It really is.

01:19:24 ◼   ► >> So Google has said that YouTube is on the roadmap for Vision Pro.

01:19:29 ◼   ► They are building a Vision Pro app.

01:19:31 ◼   ► >> Okay.

01:19:32 ◼   ► >> I've been using Juno by Christian Selig, which I found out from the great coverage

01:19:37 ◼   ► that Jon has been doing on apps so far on Mac Stories.

01:19:40 ◼   ► I'll put a link in the show notes to the Vision OS section.

01:19:42 ◼   ► >> Thank you, Jon.

01:19:42 ◼   ► >> He's been doing a really good job.

01:19:44 ◼   ► Like, also that one day ahead, I immediately bought that.

01:19:46 ◼   ► That is a very cool idea for how to visualize your calendar.

01:19:50 ◼   ► So I thought that was really cool.

01:19:51 ◼   ► But, yeah, Google have said, like, they're working,

01:19:54 ◼   ► what YouTube has said, like, we're working on it.

01:19:56 ◼   ► Like, they're going to do it.

01:19:57 ◼   ► So Christian's Day in the Sun is still here.

01:20:01 ◼   ► Godspeed, Christian Selig, but they're coming for you.

01:20:03 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

01:20:04 ◼   ► Like, do it while you still can.

01:20:06 ◼   ► >> I think he probably -- I don't talk to him about it,

01:20:10 ◼   ► but I kind of assumed he knew that was what we're coming.

01:20:12 ◼   ► >> I mean, we all knew it was going to happen, right?

01:20:14 ◼   ► Like, at some point, they were going to build it.

01:20:17 ◼   ► They just hadn't.

01:20:18 ◼   ► But this is great.

01:20:19 ◼   ► I'm happy that this app exists right now because I want to use it right now.

01:20:23 ◼   ► And I'll be happy when Google brings the official one.

01:20:26 ◼   ► >> Yeah.

01:20:28 ◼   ► >> And VisionOS 1.1, the beta is out.

01:20:32 ◼   ► We mentioned the persona improvements.

01:20:35 ◼   ► There are some features that are being added that were missing,

01:20:37 ◼   ► like iMessage contact key, which was something added in 17.3, I think.

01:20:43 ◼   ► Was it 17.4?

01:20:44 ◼   ► >> Seven -- three, I think.

01:20:47 ◼   ► >> Okay.

01:20:47 ◼   ► >> But I guess the sense is that they're bringing VisionOS up to speed

01:20:51 ◼   ► with the other OS releases, which makes sense.

01:20:54 ◼   ► >> And I would love to know if someone can tell me Safari profiles in VisionOS,

01:21:01 ◼   ► because currently they're not, so I can't get to any of my tabs.

01:21:04 ◼   ► All my tabs are hidden away.

01:21:06 ◼   ► They're all gone, and I can't get to any of them.

01:21:09 ◼   ► And I would really like to get to my tabs.

01:21:11 ◼   ► >> They're very sick.

01:21:12 ◼   ► >> Yes, please, my tabs.

01:21:14 ◼   ► So, yeah, that would be very helpful.

01:21:17 ◼   ► I would like that very much, and I hope that that comes in VisionOS 1.1.

01:21:20 ◼   ► >> Yeah.

01:21:21 ◼   ► >> Okay.

01:21:22 ◼   ► Do you think that, like, moving forward, that VisionOS will be in lockstep with,

01:21:31 ◼   ► like, iOS releases?

01:21:32 ◼   ► I mean, I know they sort of had to, like, catch up this time,

01:21:35 ◼   ► but I assume moving forward that, like, say the iOS 18 cycle,

01:21:41 ◼   ► because then the numbers will sink.

01:21:42 ◼   ► Like, iOS 18.1 comes out in October next year.

01:21:46 ◼   ► VisionOS 2.1, like, I kind of assume it'll just be in lockstep with everything else, right?

01:21:51 ◼   ► >> Me too, me too.

01:21:52 ◼   ► That's what they like to do, yeah.

01:21:54 ◼   ► >> It has to be.

01:21:54 ◼   ► >> They like to build these features in lockstep, and, like, you know,

01:21:58 ◼   ► you have a feature somewhere, and you also have it on the other platform.

01:22:02 ◼   ► That's what they do, and it really speaks to the, if you think about it,

01:22:05 ◼   ► like, the unprecedented scale that, like, this is the one thing you got,

01:22:09 ◼   ► like, you can dislike Apple for a bunch of reasons in how they design products

01:22:14 ◼   ► or how they deal with marketing, whatever,

01:22:16 ◼   ► but there's one thing that I think you can objectively appreciate.

01:22:21 ◼   ► It, like, the scale that they operate at, like, the multiple operating systems

01:22:27 ◼   ► that they can roll out for a whole bunch of devices going back years,

01:22:34 ◼   ► and they keep on adding platforms to platforms,

01:22:37 ◼   ► and they release updates all together.

01:22:39 ◼   ► It is pretty remarkable.

01:22:41 ◼   ► Like, even if you dislike Apple, what they do for multiple operating systems

01:22:47 ◼   ► and a family of devices for each OS, it is pretty impressive.

01:22:52 ◼   ► >> It is, yep.

01:22:53 ◼   ► >> I think.

01:22:53 ◼   ► >> It is.

01:22:54 ◼   ► We've got a shout-out over there.

01:22:55 ◼   ► It's kind of wild that they make it work as well as they do.

01:22:59 ◼   ► >> Yes.

01:23:00 ◼   ► >> Right?

01:23:00 ◼   ► And the worst that they do with this is, like, the Mac comes out a couple of weeks later,

01:23:05 ◼   ► and that's what I imagine for this.

01:23:06 ◼   ► It's like...

01:23:06 ◼   ► >> That is the worst case scenario.

01:23:09 ◼   ► >> And that's probably what will happen here.

01:23:11 ◼   ► Like, VisionOS will either come out on the same day,

01:23:13 ◼   ► or it'll be, like, a week or two later on, and realistically that's fine,

01:23:16 ◼   ► but I think it's a necessity because of the way they run their business.

01:23:21 ◼   ► Like, if they want to have the ecosystem be as strong as it is, which it is,

01:23:26 ◼   ► these things have to work, because, like, I'm giving them a pass right now,

01:23:29 ◼   ► but, like, they told me, you know, I should use Safari profiles

01:23:34 ◼   ► because it's going to be everywhere I use Safari.

01:23:36 ◼   ► Well, it ain't, right?

01:23:37 ◼   ► And so, like, I have a bunch of tabs right now that I use every day on all of my devices,

01:23:42 ◼   ► and I can't get to them.

01:23:43 ◼   ► >> That's terrible.

01:23:44 ◼   ► >> It's like, I give them a pass right now, but it needs to happen, right?

01:23:48 ◼   ► Like, this stuff, you know, like, the iMessage contact key is one of them, right?

01:23:53 ◼   ► Like, some people just can't use iMessage, and so that needs to be added, so...

01:23:59 ◼   ► >> I think something else I'd like to see in the very near future in these releases

01:24:03 ◼   ► is moving more of their apps out of compatibility mode.

01:24:07 ◼   ► I don't really understand why so many of them are in there,

01:24:13 ◼   ► and so many seemingly obvious ones, like Maps.

01:24:16 ◼   ► I'd probably put Calendar in there as well, mainly because the calendar UI,

01:24:18 ◼   ► like I mentioned earlier, is very fiddly with eye control.

01:24:21 ◼   ► I really want to get to a point where that compatibility list of Apple apps is very short,

01:24:28 ◼   ► and, you know, again, I don't know why they're not there.

01:24:34 ◼   ► Maybe it's, like, a disclosure issue with an Apple.

01:24:36 ◼   ► They don't want to tell, you know, those wild people building the Calendar app

01:24:39 ◼   ► that there's a Vision Pro coming.

01:24:42 ◼   ► Maybe there's only two people working on Calendar, and they're too busy to do it so far,

01:24:46 ◼   ► but that, I want more...

01:24:48 ◼   ► I want to see more of that.

01:24:51 ◼   ► The other thing I think I would add here of things that we want to see,

01:24:57 ◼   ► sort of in near-term versions of Vision OS,

01:25:01 ◼   ► is I think the guest mode is interesting the way that they set it up.

01:25:06 ◼   ► So you can go in there and basically give people set access to apps,

01:25:11 ◼   ► but it's your apps, like, that's all your stuff is in them.

01:25:16 ◼   ► And there's a lengthy support document we can find to put in the show notes.

01:25:18 ◼   ► I think all that's too convoluted, and it goes to a bigger discussion

01:25:25 ◼   ► that Apple seems to be allergic to making their iOS-based devices multi-user,

01:25:32 ◼   ► unless you have an iPad tied to an education account,

01:25:35 ◼   ► which is like this whole other strange thing that really doesn't do what you think it should do.

01:25:38 ◼   ► It's a kind of a weird process.

01:25:39 ◼   ► And I understand that this is in tension with the fact that the Vision Pro

01:25:45 ◼   ► may have your corrective lenses in it,

01:25:47 ◼   ► or may have your exact, you know, light shield and light shield cushion on it.

01:25:52 ◼   ► But at $3,500, it would be really nice to share this with my spouse if she wanted to use it.

01:25:58 ◼   ► And there's not an easy way to do that.

01:26:01 ◼   ► And again, that's a broader problem that I think they should address,

01:26:03 ◼   ► especially on iPad. It makes most sense on the iPad.

01:26:06 ◼   ► Why is an iPad a single user device, 14 years into it, I literally do not understand.

01:26:12 ◼   ► But if they do that, I'd like it to come to this product as well.

01:26:17 ◼   ► Yep, I agree with you.

01:26:18 ◼   ► The guest mode is nice. In theory, it's nice to have one.

01:26:24 ◼   ► In practicality, it's just not very good.

01:26:26 ◼   ► It just doesn't work very well.

01:26:28 ◼   ► And it's very complicated and convoluted.

01:26:31 ◼   ► And we don't have the answers for what you would do to make this work,

01:26:38 ◼   ► but it would be really great if they could work something out.

01:26:40 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:26:41 ◼   ► Yeah, it's a matter of prioritization, right?

01:26:44 ◼   ► Apple can make these things do anything.

01:26:45 ◼   ► It's just a matter of what is important to them and to their roadmap.

01:26:52 ◼   ► But to reiterate something you said a second ago, for a 1.0, it is very impressive.

01:27:00 ◼   ► I think that leaves the question of where does it fit into our lives?

01:27:04 ◼   ► Like, I think that's still unanswered.

01:27:07 ◼   ► I think almost for everybody, right?

01:27:10 ◼   ► I don't think we can answer that one weekend.

01:27:12 ◼   ► And that's where at the beginning of the show, you said that you wanted to know what I thought.

01:27:16 ◼   ► And that's been my sticking point.

01:27:18 ◼   ► I said on threads the other day, because I've said it in person,

01:27:21 ◼   ► like, I have never in the 15 years of me doing this,

01:27:26 ◼   ► I have never had a new Apple product or a tech story be like,

01:27:34 ◼   ► I've never had one that more people ask about than this.

01:27:39 ◼   ► I got a bunch of people like, oh, did you get the,

01:27:40 ◼   ► and a lot of people call them the goggles, which is very interesting to me.

01:27:45 ◼   ► I think it's because of the look.

01:27:46 ◼   ► But a lot of people like, hey, have you tried it?

01:27:49 ◼   ► Did you get one?

01:27:49 ◼   ► What do you think of it?

01:27:50 ◼   ► People are interested in this.

01:27:52 ◼   ► I've never had more people come up to me.

01:27:55 ◼   ► Like in my life or text me in my life about product.

01:27:58 ◼   ► But it makes it really hard.

01:27:59 ◼   ► Like my job is to have feelings about computers.

01:28:01 ◼   ► This is what I've said to them.

01:28:03 ◼   ► And I don't know how I feel about this.

01:28:05 ◼   ► And I think that really comes down to where does it fit in?

01:28:08 ◼   ► And I've just come to realize over the last couple of days,

01:28:11 ◼   ► we're not going to know maybe for a long time where this fits into our lives,

01:28:17 ◼   ► whether it be entertainment or productivity or something in between.

01:28:21 ◼   ► It's just going to take time because this is so different.

01:28:25 ◼   ► And really it's unlike things that we've had before in almost any way.

01:28:31 ◼   ► Federico, I can't wait.

01:28:35 ◼   ► I'm just so excited for you when it gets there.

01:28:37 ◼   ► Me too.

01:28:37 ◼   ► Me too.

01:28:38 ◼   ► Soon.

01:28:39 ◼   ► I hope soon, but not yet.

01:28:40 ◼   ► Well, now that we have finished follow-up, it's time to go into the closing.

01:28:45 ◼   ► How does that sound?

01:28:46 ◼   ► Perfect.

01:28:47 ◼   ► The natural order.

01:28:49 ◼   ► Yes.

01:28:50 ◼   ► It's like the time we did the show based on dice rolls and everyone freaked out.

01:28:53 ◼   ► If you want to find the links to the stuff we spoke about, they're in your podcast player.

01:28:59 ◼   ► They're also on the web at relay.fm/connected/488.

01:29:01 ◼   ► If nothing else, click on the link that says OTJ in the sky.

01:29:07 ◼   ► Like just click that one.

01:29:09 ◼   ► It will make your day.

01:29:10 ◼   ► I want to set it as an environment on my vision pro, on my face computer.

01:29:15 ◼   ► You can find us all online.

01:29:19 ◼   ► You can find Federico and his whole team over at Mac stories.

01:29:22 ◼   ► Y'all have done a great job of highlighting vision OS apps.

01:29:26 ◼   ► Like I've downloaded basically everything y'all talk to.

01:29:28 ◼   ► That is one way this does feel like the iPhone is like early days of the app store.

01:29:32 ◼   ► It may have, I've just, I'm just downloading apps, man.

01:29:35 ◼   ► Like I'm just going wild.

01:29:36 ◼   ► Lots of great coverage over there.

01:29:39 ◼   ► You can follow Federico on social media at Vatici on threads and at Vatici and macstories.net

01:29:45 ◼   ► on Mastodon.

01:29:47 ◼   ► Mike co-hosts a bunch of other shows here on relay.fm.

01:29:50 ◼   ► I'm very excited to hear y'all's cortex episode, which I hope is coming about all this.

01:29:53 ◼   ► It's recorded.

01:29:55 ◼   ► Awesome.

01:29:56 ◼   ► So soon, but not yet.

01:29:58 ◼   ► Yes.

01:29:59 ◼   ► Soon, but not yet soon, but not yet.

01:30:00 ◼   ► You can follow Mike's work also at cortex brand and online.

01:30:04 ◼   ► He is I Mike on threads and I Mike at Mike.social over on Mastodon.

01:30:09 ◼   ► You can find my writing at 512 pixels.net and I co-host Mac power users each and every Sunday.

01:30:15 ◼   ► The Sunday's episode is very much like this one.

01:30:19 ◼   ► It is David sparks and I talking about our experiences and impressions of the Apple vision

01:30:25 ◼   ► pro and its platform.

01:30:26 ◼   ► We talk a lot about the entertainment productivity angles.

01:30:29 ◼   ► So I think that's a really nice compliment to this episode.

01:30:31 ◼   ► So that'll be out Sunday.

01:30:33 ◼   ► You can find me on social media, ISM H 86 on threads and ISM H at e-world.social on

01:30:39 ◼   ► Mastodon.

01:30:40 ◼   ► I'd like to thank our sponsors this week, ship station, net suite, and ECAM. And until

01:30:46 ◼   ► next week, guys say goodbye.

01:30:47 ◼   ► Cheerio.

01:30:49 ◼   ► Bye y'all.