Under the Radar

00:00:00 ◼   ► Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development.

00:00:04 ◼   ► I'm Marco Arment.

00:00:05 ◼   ► And I'm David Smith.

00:00:06 ◼   ► Under the Radar is usually not longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.

00:00:09 ◼   ► So it seems like we are in the, you know, any minute now, WWDC announcement kind of part of the year, right?

00:00:18 ◼   ► Yes. I hope so. I really, really hope so.

00:00:21 ◼   ► So it is possible that any time between now and mid-May, Apple might announce WBC.

00:00:28 ◼   ► And so when this happens, I would like to strongly encourage our listeners out there,

00:00:34 ◼   ► if you're wondering, like, is it worth going?

00:00:38 ◼   ► Should I go through the hassle and expense and time of getting out there?

00:00:42 ◼   ► Should I enter what will presumably be some kind of lottery to get to go to the Apple

00:00:46 ◼   ► campus and go in person?

00:00:48 ◼   ► I would say treat it like almost like Disney World.

00:00:53 ◼   ► Like, with the disclaimer I've never actually been

00:00:56 ◼   ► to Disney World, but treat it like a cool destination

00:01:01 ◼   ► vacation or a cool pilgrimage in a way.

00:01:04 ◼   ► I would suggest if you have the means to get yourself there,

00:01:09 ◼   ► whatever that means for you, and that's a huge if,

00:01:12 ◼   ► 'cause for many people it could be quite a journey

00:01:16 ◼   ► to get there. I would say if you have the means, going to, assuming they do the same

00:01:21 ◼   ► thing as they did last year, which is also a big assumption, but I think it's probably

00:01:24 ◼   ► a safe one.

00:01:26 ◼   ► Going to the Apple Campus and being there in person, seeing Apple Park, like all that

00:01:31 ◼   ► stuff, you know, that, it was so cool to just be there and see all that stuff. And, you

00:01:38 ◼   ► know, that, it's a really cool pilgrimage. And so I would say if this gets announced

00:01:43 ◼   ► between this episode and next, which we're both hoping it will. And if some lottery opens

00:01:49 ◼   ► up that you can enter to go in person, I would suggest if you can swing it to do so, because

00:01:55 ◼   ► it's really cool. And it's not so much for the developer content, because that will mostly

00:02:01 ◼   ► be streamed. They didn't do live sessions last year. It's more of like, here's a cool

00:02:08 ◼   ► thing you can do in person if you want to. And then the whole conference is actually

00:02:13 ◼   ► online which we talked about before I think is better in pretty much every way. It's not

00:02:18 ◼   ► about the content so much as the pilgrimage. And I find the pilgrimage also incredibly

00:02:23 ◼   ► motivating to go work on my app afterwards because I've been to the mothership and I've

00:02:30 ◼   ► seen all the people who work on this stuff and it always energizes me to go do awesome

00:02:36 ◼   ► some stuff in my app and to go work harder and to adopt the new stuff. And so there is

00:02:41 ◼   ► a very strong just coolness factor to going and there's a very strong motivational factor

00:02:46 ◼   ► to going. So I strongly suggest if Such a Lottery opens up anytime soon and you're

00:02:51 ◼   ► able to go, put your name in the hat. It's pretty cool.

00:02:54 ◼   ► Yeah. And I think I would definitely both concur with that as a recommendation. And

00:02:59 ◼   ► I mean, there's clearly a reason why every WWDC that I could have gone to in person that

00:03:05 ◼   ► I have been to since 2009. And that is, in aggregate, certainly quite a bit of expense

00:03:12 ◼   ► in terms of time and money, but it is something that I continue to do and continue to hope

00:03:17 ◼   ► to be able to continue doing because it has been so impactful, because it is just a useful

00:03:23 ◼   ► part of the year. And I think for all the things you're saying, but I think for me,

00:03:26 ◼   ► the biggest thing too is there is something different about physically moving yourself

00:03:31 ◼   ► to a different place that is a useful mental reset for the rest of the year. It's like

00:03:39 ◼   ► it creates this chapter, sort of there's the first half of the year and the second

00:03:43 ◼   ► half of the year. And from my work life, that has been really helpful to me to be able to

00:03:48 ◼   ► kind of go there and for a week be completely focused on work and what I'm going to work

00:03:54 ◼   ► on for the rest of the year, what's interesting. It's very good for being creative and you

00:04:00 ◼   ► have an idea at WWDC and you can talk it through with three or four people immediately, in

00:04:05 ◼   ► a way that is just different and very cultivating for new ideas and things that you're going

00:04:10 ◼   ► to go into. And so I think there is just that. And you could kind of create that yourself,

00:04:15 ◼   ► in terms of you could go, we talk about going on a working vacation type of situations.

00:04:21 ◼   ► And going to WWDC would not be something that would be particularly viable for you, trying

00:04:26 ◼   ► to do something like that, where you go stay in a local hotel for a couple of nights around

00:04:31 ◼   ► WWDC to have that same sense of like, it's a focused retreat focused on work is just

00:04:37 ◼   ► something that I've found very, very empowering. But certainly if you can get out to there,

00:04:41 ◼   ► and it's like, assuming there's going to be an event like they did last year, at least,

00:04:45 ◼   ► something like that, like, if you I would highly recommend being really positive about

00:04:49 ◼   ► trying to get there, especially if you haven't before, because maybe it's not for everybody,

00:04:53 ◼   ► It's definitely for Marco and I.

00:04:55 ◼   ► And I imagine we are not alone in our finding of its value.

00:05:01 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:05:02 ◼   ► And I mean, I would even say, like--

00:05:05 ◼   ► and let me know when you lived on the East Coast of the US

00:05:07 ◼   ► and had a similar flight situation.

00:05:09 ◼   ► Even the flights to and from, I always

00:05:11 ◼   ► got a massive amount of work done.

00:05:14 ◼   ► When I don't usually, like on usually long flights,

00:05:17 ◼   ► I always think I'm going to get worked on, and I never do.

00:05:19 ◼   ► But for some reason, the ones to and from WWDC,

00:05:21 ◼   ► whether it's like the motivation or the fact that it's usually just me without anybody

00:05:26 ◼   ► else, you know, no companions or family or anything. Like, usually I get a ton of work

00:05:30 ◼   ► done on those flights. So yeah, it's a pretty cool experience, so if you can do it and if

00:05:36 ◼   ► the opportunity opens up in the next two weeks, which we assume there's a pretty good chance

00:05:40 ◼   ► of that just timing-wise for the year, we suggest that you do it.

00:05:43 ◼   ► Absolutely.

00:05:44 ◼   ► So, now onto the actual show topic.

00:05:47 ◼   ► We, you know, so when you debuted the Podometer++

00:05:51 ◼   ► major update a couple episodes ago,

00:05:54 ◼   ► part of that update, among many other things,

00:05:58 ◼   ► including what appeared to be an almost total rewrite

00:06:00 ◼   ► of the app, which is no small feat,

00:06:03 ◼   ► part of that change is you actually changed

00:06:07 ◼   ► the business model of Podometer++,

00:06:09 ◼   ► and you adopted a new subscription.

00:06:10 ◼   ► And, you know, at the time, I believe we said,

00:06:14 ◼   ► Let's revisit that after a little while when you have some data and you've seen the

00:06:18 ◼   ► feedback and how the existing users have received that.

00:06:23 ◼   ► Because this is something that I think a lot of developers face, you have an existing app

00:06:27 ◼   ► with existing users and you want to move it to a subscription model.

00:06:31 ◼   ► And we've seen this over and over again in the industry and it's usually really tricky

00:06:37 ◼   ► to navigate that path.

00:06:38 ◼   ► And a lot of times users get upset or the press turns against you if you have any press

00:06:43 ◼   ► or people dump your app for a competitor because they hate subscriptions or whatever. And so

00:06:52 ◼   ► that's obviously very tricky to manage. And I think you've been really, I think, unusually

00:06:57 ◼   ► good compared to the industry average in terms of bringing your existing user base along

00:07:04 ◼   ► through significant changes in the app. And you are more level-headed than most of us.

00:07:12 ◼   ► you're better at reacting quickly to user feedback than most of us. And so I'm curious

00:07:17 ◼   ► to see, I haven't, I've intentionally not been like, you know, digging into your reviews,

00:07:22 ◼   ► so I didn't want any spoilers. How has this gone for you? And what have you learned in

00:07:28 ◼   ► the process moving pedometer to a subscription?

00:07:31 ◼   ► Yeah, and I think so. So like, like the high level first is that I think it went well.

00:07:36 ◼   ► Like it's, it's been basically, yes, like we're basically a month in and I mean, it's

00:07:40 ◼   ► like, you're never going to get through something like this without some people being grumpy.

00:07:43 ◼   ► I mean, that is anything, regardless of what I had changed, if I change anything, there

00:07:48 ◼   ► will be some, you know, group of people who are grumpy. That's just the reality of development

00:07:54 ◼   ► and improvement and change. So like that, that is not unexpected. But it has been something

00:07:58 ◼   ► that I think and we can, I mentioned the rest of the episode, we'll be talking about all

00:08:02 ◼   ► the strategies I use to try and make this transition sort of smooth and easy and hopefully

00:08:07 ◼   ► painless for my customers, but overall they all seem to have generally worked. And like,

00:08:12 ◼   ► you know, the subscription is doing well, the general kind of user base seems happy,

00:08:17 ◼   ► you know, a month in and other than a few minor issues, like I haven't had any crazy

00:08:22 ◼   ► issues related to the, you know, rewrite side of things, you know, so it's like, overall,

00:08:29 ◼   ► the update went well. And I think probably a good place to start is to just kind of talk

00:08:33 ◼   ► through the business model history for Pedometer++ because, I think Overcast has gone through

00:08:40 ◼   ► the same kind of journey where it has definitely not been a straightforward path from version

00:08:46 ◼   ► 1 to now in terms of what brings me to here and kind of the luggage that that means that

00:08:52 ◼   ► the app is kind of carrying with it to this point. Because Pedometer++ launched nearly

00:08:58 ◼   ► ten years ago, which is a wild thing to think about. But it's like in 2013 when the iPhone

00:09:05 ◼   ► 5S launched, I launched Panama WordPress Plus, and initially the app was just completely

00:09:11 ◼   ► free, no business model, no anything, because it was super simple, did hardly anything,

00:09:17 ◼   ► and I wasn't even really sure when I shipped it if it was even going to really work, in

00:09:21 ◼   ► in a practical sense that I had gotten my iPhone 5S, got up at two in the morning, went

00:09:28 ◼   ► and camped out in front of an Apple store, got my iPhone 5S, did a build and run, it

00:09:32 ◼   ► worked, I submitted it. That was where I was, and so I had minimal confidence in this app.

00:09:38 ◼   ► But I thought also it was really cool to be there on day one, to be right there at the

00:09:41 ◼   ► start. And so that's how the app launched. It was just like a free app out there, like,

00:09:46 ◼   ► see if there's anything here." And then that was sort of where it began. And then,

00:09:53 ◼   ► so as a result, in a weird way, like I didn't think about this at the time, but that kind

00:09:56 ◼   ► of sort of dictated some of the paths that I felt like were available to me, because

00:10:02 ◼   ► it meant that the paid upfront model, I felt like I was kind of excluded as a result of

00:10:09 ◼   ► going down that road, which isn't technically true. Like I certainly could have gone down

00:10:12 ◼   ► that road. But in general, when you take something that was free and make it paid, that is where

00:10:18 ◼   ► I think the biggest sort of issues and problems you run into in regards to user and customer

00:10:25 ◼   ► feedback that you take this thing that was free and you make it paid, that is so often

00:10:29 ◼   ► the root thing that people don't like. So I was like, "Okay, that's not going to be there."

00:10:33 ◼   ► And so then it was like, "Okay, well, what can I do?" And this is 10 years ago, there

00:10:38 ◼   ► was no in-app purchase subscription for, I don't think, it may not have been for anything,

00:10:43 ◼   ► but at the very least it definitely wasn't for just like software, whereas in the first

00:10:47 ◼   ► version of subscriptions it was only for media and content. And so that definitely wasn't

00:10:53 ◼   ► this. And so the first thing I did was I added a tip jar to Pedometer++, which I think may

00:10:58 ◼   ► have been one of the very first tip jars in the App Store, at least one of the few that

00:11:02 ◼   ► I was aware of. And I wasn't even sure if it would get through App Review, but I was

00:11:05 ◼   ► just like, "Hey, let's just see if that works." So I just added a little thing that was like

00:11:09 ◼   ► a small, medium, and large tip, and you could kind of just freely give me some money inside

00:11:15 ◼   ► of the app. And I tried that, and it worked reasonably well. I think the general feedback

00:11:23 ◼   ► I got from that is that it is a good way of getting a reasonable amount of money from

00:11:28 ◼   ► your most passionate fans. Ten percent of people who are most excited about your app

00:11:36 ◼   ► were very supportive and able to get into that. But it also leaves a lot of users who

00:11:41 ◼   ► are completely unmonetized, and that was problematic. And so then I went and added advertising inside

00:11:46 ◼   ► the app. Originally it was iAd when Apple introduced that, and then when Apple got rid

00:11:50 ◼   ► of that I went to AdMob. And advertising became the main business model for the app for a

00:11:57 ◼   ► long time, and eventually I slightly rebranded the tip jar to be more like "remove ads"

00:12:02 ◼   ► rather than just a tip jar, because that actually performed a lot better but did a similar kind

00:12:07 ◼   ► of thing where it's a bit more voluntary rather than being essential. And so that sort

00:12:13 ◼   ► of brings us to today, where now it's a model where there's a selection of features

00:12:20 ◼   ► inside the app that I put behind a paywall, and I'm now charging a recurring subscription

00:12:26 ◼   ► for that. So it's the $2 a month, $20 a year kind of a model for, in pedometer++' case,

00:12:33 ◼   ► it's essentially all of the workout features. So the iPhone workout tracking, the mapping

00:12:39 ◼   ► features, downloadable maps, all that kind of thing, as well as some custom icons. And

00:12:46 ◼   ► I have some plans for things down the road, and that would be most likely be premium features.

00:12:53 ◼   ► But in kind of just as broad strokes, that's kind of the journey that the app has been

00:12:57 ◼   ► on to get to today, which hopefully is kind of some useful context before I dive into

00:13:01 ◼   ► the actual nuts and bolts for like where I am now and how I got here.

00:13:06 ◼   ► Yeah, I think it's interesting, like, you know, to look back over the history of, you

00:13:10 ◼   ► know, such a long running app, you know, as you said, I have a similar timeline with Overcast,

00:13:15 ◼   ► you know, having come out almost nine years ago. And it's interesting, actually, wait,

00:13:20 ◼   ► almost ten, oh geez, 2014? I forget, I think it's almost nine years ago. Anyway, when

00:13:25 ◼   ► it's been that long, the difference between nine and ten doesn't really matter that

00:13:29 ◼   ► much. But it's interesting, you know, like, on one hand, you have to, you know, it's

00:13:35 ◼   ► useful to know what happened in the past and to know the journey that got you here and

00:13:40 ◼   ► to keep in mind the lessons learned from the past. But on another level, you can't be

00:13:45 ◼   ► too concerned with the past because every new person who's coming to your app, like

00:13:51 ◼   ► your entire source of growth, is coming from people who don't know the app's history,

00:13:55 ◼   ► who maybe don't even know the history of apps in general back then, and also even if

00:14:01 ◼   ► they did, probably don't care anymore. You know, like when the App Store first launched,

00:14:05 ◼   ► almost everything was paid up front for the first few weeks or months. Everything was

00:14:10 ◼   ► like $5 or $10, and then very quickly went down and down and down, and then eventually

00:14:15 ◼   ► we got to where we are today.

00:14:17 ◼   ► But no one today cares that, yeah,

00:14:20 ◼   ► most apps used to be paid up front

00:14:21 ◼   ► for the first couple months of the app store.

00:14:23 ◼   ► No one cares, that's not a thing at all

00:14:26 ◼   ► that people care about now.

00:14:28 ◼   ► But your existing customers who were there

00:14:32 ◼   ► for that part of it, some of them still care.

00:14:35 ◼   ► Like, one of the issues I have with Overcast,

00:14:40 ◼   ► and I've had this issue for everything I've ever done,

00:14:42 ◼   ► is the people who bought it,

00:14:46 ◼   ► who bought the unlock for the original 1.0 version

00:14:51 ◼   ► in 2014 still expect all the benefits they bought

00:14:56 ◼   ► from that unlock to be there today.

00:14:59 ◼   ► And it's like, okay, yes, thank you,

00:15:01 ◼   ► you gave me $5, I think it was, I don't even remember,

00:15:04 ◼   ► I think it was $5.

00:15:05 ◼   ► It's like, whatever it was, you gave me this amount of money

00:15:08 ◼   ► in 2014 and I've been maintaining the app

00:15:11 ◼   ► for this entire time since then,

00:15:13 ◼   ► running the servers this entire time since then,

00:15:15 ◼   ► if you gave me five bucks in 2014

00:15:17 ◼   ► and have been using the app since then,

00:15:20 ◼   ► if you don't show the ads in the app

00:15:23 ◼   ► or haven't bought premium,

00:15:24 ◼   ► I have definitely lost money on you by now,

00:15:27 ◼   ► but that's my problem, not yours.

00:15:30 ◼   ► And that's on me to deal with.

00:15:33 ◼   ► And so if I change the business model

00:15:36 ◼   ► or if I change what those people have access to now,

00:15:41 ◼   ► they're gonna see that as taking away something of theirs,

00:15:45 ◼   ► or they're gonna see that negatively in some other way.

00:15:46 ◼   ► And so it is ultimately my problem to deal with,

00:15:50 ◼   ► of like, if I want to change the business model

00:15:54 ◼   ► to match what current customers expect,

00:15:58 ◼   ► or to match what my current needs are financially

00:16:00 ◼   ► for the app, or how to cover my current costs

00:16:03 ◼   ► of running the app, that's really up to me

00:16:06 ◼   ► and new customers to mostly handle,

00:16:09 ◼   ► because it's really hard to change what the old customers are getting or have gotten for

00:16:14 ◼   ► what they paid or didn't pay without really angering your existing user base.

00:16:19 ◼   ► So on one level, you have to try as much as possible not to care about the past.

00:16:25 ◼   ► But some of your customers are going to care quite a lot about the past.

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00:17:54 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I think it's very much what you're saying there

00:17:58 ◼   ► this sort of this duality that you have to keep in your mind when you're doing this kind of work,

00:18:02 ◼   ► I think is so fundamental to understand and be aware of and respectful of your existing user

00:18:09 ◼   ► base, who are, you know, presumably the, you know, they're the bread and butter of your app,

00:18:14 ◼   ► they're the people you've built up over time, hopefully, this, you know, this group of people

00:18:18 ◼   ► who like the app, who use it regularly, you know, that when we talk about retention, and again,

00:18:22 ◼   ► you have this retention curve where, you know, whatever 40% of people come back the first day,

00:18:27 ◼   ► and then it kind of falls off from there. But at some point, you end up with this group of people

00:18:30 ◼   ► who are committed to your app, who are invested in it into sense of their time and energy and

00:18:34 ◼   ► attention. And so you want to sort of do right by them. And if you do, you know, like treat them

00:18:40 ◼   ► well, that they are, you know, there's hopefully enough of them that have enough goodwill that

00:18:43 ◼   ► they'll support you. But also make sure that you're not catering to them too much at the

00:18:50 ◼   ► expense of your kind of future potential for growth with new customers who don't have that

00:18:54 ◼   ► context who are that for, you know, debt day one person. And so I think when I'm going

00:18:58 ◼   ► into my business model change for this, but the thought I had in my mind, which I don't

00:19:03 ◼   ► know is, I think it was the sort of the generous and but also like, sort of like safe and wise

00:19:10 ◼   ► approach as well, was to say, I'm not going to try very hard to not take anything that

00:19:17 ◼   ► is currently free, and or you could have had access before and put it behind a paywall

00:19:24 ◼   ► I don't want it to ever feel like this thing that you had, I'm taking it away from you,

00:19:28 ◼   ► and now starting to charge you money. Instead, I'm going to do the work to build new and

00:19:34 ◼   ► more compelling features that will augment the existing experience, and all of the new

00:19:39 ◼   ► stuff is going to be paid. And sort of my rationale for that is that if you are a current

00:19:46 ◼   ► user, someone who's happy, someone who likes the app, who uses it all the time, and I make

00:19:50 ◼   ► the app better, you're going to want the things that make the app better because you like

00:19:55 ◼   ► the app. So why wouldn't you want the app to be better? But if you for whatever reason

00:20:00 ◼   ► don't want to pay for that, you can continue to still be that person who is happy and is

00:20:06 ◼   ► using the app and we're all good there. And so that was sort of the way that I intentionally

00:20:11 ◼   ► structured this, that I didn't take any of the features that existed before, that in

00:20:15 ◼   ► some ways if it weren't for the visual redesign stuff, like you could just entirely possible

00:20:20 ◼   ► that some users would never know that anything changed. And those users still have, there's

00:20:24 ◼   ► still ads in the app, and so they'll continue to kind of support and be monetized in that

00:20:28 ◼   ► way if they never went, you know, anywhere else in the app. But I'm also going to create

00:20:32 ◼   ► this new way that if you want the more advanced features, if you want a more robust experience,

00:20:38 ◼   ► if you want features that are new, then you then you have to be sort of on the subscription

00:20:42 ◼   ► plan. And that seems to kind of be working well, where, you know, the existing user base

00:20:49 ◼   ► was fairly happy with that. If you didn't, you could have been completely unaware that this

00:20:53 ◼   ► happened, the business model changed, but you didn't have to change with it. Or you can kind

00:20:57 ◼   ► of become aware of that new option subsequently. That is definitely something that is possible

00:21:04 ◼   ► in this model. But I think overall, that seemed to work. And I think that was the approach I took,

00:21:10 ◼   ► was consciously with that in mind. And I think not every app has the benefit of that, because it is

00:21:16 ◼   ► very difficult to pull off because you have to essentially create whole cloth, something

00:21:22 ◼   ► of value that's worth paying for, in addition to whatever your core value was initially.

00:21:31 ◼   ► Because I think very often where apps get into trouble is when you have a business model

00:21:36 ◼   ► for the core part of your app, and then you now suddenly want to start charging for that

00:21:42 ◼   ► core part of the app, and now you're taking something away from someone. And, you know,

00:21:46 ◼   ► necessarily and obviously and like, quite reasonably, people are going to be upset if

00:21:50 ◼   ► you take something away from them rather than sort of add something extra that they now

00:21:54 ◼   ► have to pay for. And so it's definitely difficult. Like, it would have been great if I just decided,

00:21:58 ◼   ► "Hey, I'm just going to make the app subscription based." And interestingly, like as a sort

00:22:04 ◼   ► of a point of comparison, like I've in the industry that I work in, in terms of step

00:22:09 ◼   ► counting. There have been a number of apps that were created, did reasonably well, and

00:22:14 ◼   ► then got bought by—I don't know what kind of companies you'd call it. I don't know if

00:22:19 ◼   ► it's venture or how it's sort of funded, but there's these companies that come in and they

00:22:23 ◼   ► buy an app, and then it's just like, put everything behind a paywall. It's all about using the

00:22:28 ◼   ► existing search optimization for the app in the App Store. And it's just like, every time

00:22:32 ◼   ► you open the app, it's showing you a paywall. It's very aggressive. And I'm sure it makes

00:22:35 ◼   ► some money, but it also ruins the user experience. And so that is the other extent of this, where

00:22:41 ◼   ► I see that and it's like, maybe there's more money there. Maybe if I'd gone that route,

00:22:44 ◼   ► that would have been potentially overall more income, but it would have been way less satisfaction

00:22:49 ◼   ► for myself and my users. So instead, it's like taking this approach of let's put in

00:22:53 ◼   ► the work to build features that are worth paying for and then charge money for them,

00:22:57 ◼   ► which I think ultimately sounds kind of simplistic and superficial, but that's what I did and

00:23:02 ◼   ► it seemed to work. I think there were a few dozen people who were upset about this thing

00:23:08 ◼   ► or saying, "Oh, now you're just one of these apps always wanting to ask for a subscription,

00:23:13 ◼   ► asking for money, greedy and selfish." It's like a dozen people. It's not the vast majority

00:23:20 ◼   ► of people who seem pretty fair about this, that I'm just presenting this value proposition.

00:23:25 ◼   ► Here are some new features that I spent a while building, and if you want them, awesome.

00:23:29 ◼   ► is what they cost. And that makes it very straightforward. Everything you had before,

00:23:33 ◼   ► if you paid to remove ads in like 10 years ago, it still works today. So remove your

00:23:39 ◼   ► ads. I'm just sort of grandfathering in all the features from before and that seems

00:23:43 ◼   ► to work.

00:23:44 ◼   ► That's really good. I'm really glad to hear that. Because your competitors' apps

00:23:49 ◼   ► that you were talking about, about how they're just kind of ad crap fests to just… It's

00:23:55 ◼   ► like strip mining attention on the App Store.

00:23:57 ◼   ► Just like, we don't care how terrible

00:23:59 ◼   ► we make this experience, we're just gonna mine

00:24:02 ◼   ► these people for as much crappy ad money that we can get,

00:24:05 ◼   ► and when the app becomes a rotting husk of itself,

00:24:09 ◼   ► who cares, we'll move on to the next one.

00:24:12 ◼   ► And that is a huge economy, and that is a huge part

00:24:14 ◼   ► of the App Store, a part of the App Store

00:24:16 ◼   ► that still both baffles and disappoints me

00:24:19 ◼   ► that Apple allows to exist at all

00:24:21 ◼   ► through the process of app review

00:24:22 ◼   ► that's protecting us from bad experiences

00:24:24 ◼   ► in theory. But, you know, setting that aside, Apple permits this and profits heavily from

00:24:31 ◼   ► this because what that industry is mostly for is we're going to buy as many installs

00:24:37 ◼   ► as we can, oftentimes using search ads where Apple profits, again, thanks for that. So,

00:24:43 ◼   ► you know, lots of, you know, money going in to buy installations because they know they're

00:24:49 ◼   ► going to strip mine the attention for ad money once it's installed until the user realizes,

00:24:55 ◼   ► "Oh God, I'm so tired of these stupid ads," and moves on.

00:25:00 ◼   ► And that's a game that if you cross into the purely cynical revenue maximizing mode, you

00:25:12 ◼   ► play that game then, and then you're competing with all of those people and all of those

00:25:15 ◼   ► apps. And the fact is, they're probably better than you with that game, because you

00:25:20 ◼   ► care too much about people and quality. So if you want to, you can play that game, like

00:25:29 ◼   ► if that's your industry and you want to play that game, you can play that game. And

00:25:32 ◼   ► look, someone wins that game. It could be you, maybe not, but it could be you. But when

00:25:37 ◼   ► you're instead focused on the quality market, that's a different game that you're playing,

00:25:43 ◼   ► a very different market.

00:25:45 ◼   ► And that is a much smaller part of the App Store by volume,

00:25:50 ◼   ► but it's also, I mean, for me, it just feels a lot better

00:25:53 ◼   ► to play in that game.

00:25:55 ◼   ► And that's, I think when we are talking about

00:25:59 ◼   ► the wonderful life of being an indie app developer,

00:26:03 ◼   ► that's more what we're thinking of than the, you know,

00:26:07 ◼   ► strip mining people's attention for as many ads

00:26:11 ◼   ► as you can get before they get tired of your app

00:26:12 ◼   ► and delete it because it doesn't quite do what they wanted and it's full of so many

00:26:16 ◼   ► ads they can't get anything done. Like, we've all seen those apps in the App Store. Oftentimes,

00:26:22 ◼   ► like, on our kids' devices that we have to delete or filter or whatever, or our relatives

00:26:27 ◼   ► or whatever. But it's much nicer to not play that game if you don't have to. And fortunately

00:26:34 ◼   ► with Podometer, you don't have to. And you don't play that game with any of your apps.

00:26:37 ◼   ► And I don't either. And I'm really happy not to play that game. And so I think it's important

00:26:42 ◼   ► when you are looking at revenue strategies,

00:26:45 ◼   ► ad strategies, et cetera, to recognize

00:26:47 ◼   ► which of these games you're actually playing

00:26:49 ◼   ► and which one you want to be playing

00:26:52 ◼   ► and which one you are potentially good at

00:26:54 ◼   ► or want to be good at because if you push too hard

00:26:59 ◼   ► and you fill everything with ads

00:27:00 ◼   ► and you maximize every opportunity,

00:27:02 ◼   ► again, that puts you in a different category of app

00:27:05 ◼   ► and the quality market will abandon you.

00:27:08 ◼   ► And then you're just competing with the pump and dump market

00:27:11 ◼   ► and they're going to be better at it than you.

00:27:13 ◼   ► Yeah, and I think too it's the sense of are you trying to build a business that can

00:27:20 ◼   ► last for years and years that, you know, like I, you know, and making this change in Pedometer

00:27:27 ◼   ► ++ 10 years almost into its life and I am sort of making this change to hopefully make

00:27:35 ◼   ► the next 10 years of this app viable. And that's just a different mentality. That's

00:27:40 ◼   ► a different mindset that what I want is a core group of users who love the app, who

00:27:47 ◼   ► care a lot about it, who are my marketing division, essentially. I don't have to do

00:27:53 ◼   ► marketing because my customers do my marketing for me because they like the app and they'll

00:27:57 ◼   ► tell it to a friend or show it to someone or those kinds of things. That's what I'm

00:28:01 ◼   ► buying with that. That goodwill turns into these other divisions of I don't have a

00:28:07 ◼   ► growth marketing team. I don't have a market, you know, all these things that you could

00:28:11 ◼   ► imagine if you start to go in a different direction that you would need. Like I'm instead

00:28:17 ◼   ► building that, you know, paying for those with goodwill instead. And I think my hope

00:28:20 ◼   ► is to just have a model that is sustainable. And I think ultimately for the, you know,

00:28:25 ◼   ► the indie life, I think sort of having ads plus a small sort of not inconsequential,

00:28:33 ◼   ► But to have a subscription that is available for your most interested users seems like

00:28:39 ◼   ► a great model.

00:28:40 ◼   ► It seems sustainable.

00:28:41 ◼   ► It seems like it creates consistent revenue over time, which means that I can continue

00:28:46 ◼   ► to focus on improving and my incentives are aligned with my customers' incentives that

00:28:50 ◼   ► if they're happy, I'm happy, rather than working at any way across purposes.

00:28:55 ◼   ► And I think that is the thing that ultimately is a great guiding principle as you're thinking

00:28:59 ◼   ► through business model changes or how you're going to structure things.

00:29:03 ◼   ► would I respond to this if I was a user? How would I think about this? Would I be happy?

00:29:08 ◼   ► Would this increase the satisfaction I would have in using this app?" And if that's the

00:29:12 ◼   ► case, if you're doing things that are only going to make people happy, like, "Oh, wow,

00:29:15 ◼   ► that's a great new feature. I want that. Oh, it cost me money. That's cool," in a way that

00:29:21 ◼   ► I'm never taking things away or trying to create these moments of disappointment or

00:29:25 ◼   ► sadness because it's a different kind of disappointment if you see a cool feature and you say, "Oh,

00:29:31 ◼   ► oh wow, it costs something, versus the disappointment

00:29:34 ◼   ► of going to check your steps in a day

00:29:35 ◼   ► and they're just like not there.

00:29:37 ◼   ► Like that's a very painful, different kind of

00:29:40 ◼   ► just sort of discouragement that I chose to avoid

00:29:42 ◼   ► and maybe I'm leaving some money on the table

00:29:43 ◼   ► but I will leave that money on the table

00:29:45 ◼   ► and walk away happy as a result.

00:29:47 ◼   ► - And sleep at night.

00:29:48 ◼   ► - Exactly.

00:29:50 ◼   ► - Thanks for listening everybody

00:29:51 ◼   ► and we will talk to you in two weeks.

00:29:53 ◼   ► - Bye.

00:29:53 ◼   ► [