Connected

00:00:00 ◼   ► [Music]

00:00:05 ◼   ► From Relay FM, this is Connected, episode number 69. I am back from New York and

00:00:10 ◼   ► today's show is brought to you by Braintree, Casper, and Foot Cardigan. My name is Myke

00:00:15 ◼   ► Hurley and I am joined as always by Mr Federico Vittucci.

00:00:18 ◼   ► Hello Myke, welcome back.

00:00:21 ◼   ► Thank you Federico and Mr Steven Hackett.

00:00:22 ◼   ► Hey guys.

00:00:24 ◼   ► I enjoyed listening to the show last week.

00:00:26 ◼   ► Good.

00:00:28 ◼   ► Oh yeah? Thank you. Yeah? Sweet, thank you Myke. I was America. I was the land of the free.

00:00:33 ◼   ► It was pretty free. I felt free. Yeah, yeah, it was good.

00:00:36 ◼   ► You felt free?

00:00:38 ◼   ► Okay, that's good to know, Myke.

00:00:41 ◼   ► I'm pleased that there wasn't too many references to my death, which is always good. Still a few.

00:00:47 ◼   ► Still a few.

00:00:49 ◼   ► You gotta assume you have died so many times already. It got pretty, you know, tiring after

00:00:54 ◼   ► a while.

00:00:54 ◼   ► If somebody ever wants to plot out the amount of ways that I met my untimely end when I've been missing from this show

00:01:00 ◼   ► I would appreciate that at some point just so I can kind of understand

00:01:03 ◼   ► Isn't there like a TV show about this, like a thousand ways to die?

00:01:08 ◼   ► I think it's a YouTube thing?

00:01:10 ◼   ► No, it's also on TV in Italy.

00:01:12 ◼   ► Yeah, I think like they did with many YouTube shows they turned it into a TV show

00:01:16 ◼   ► Oh, okay.

00:01:17 ◼   ► Is it like dumb ways to die or something?

00:01:19 ◼   ► Dumb, maybe dumb. In Italy it's called maybe a hundred or maybe a thousand ways to die?

00:01:24 ◼   ► I don't know. Anyway, there should be like a thousand ways

00:01:28 ◼   ► Myke dies or something. I mean, that's horrible for me though. No

00:01:33 ◼   ► In a sort of light-hearted way, you know, like just for fun just like in theory, you know

00:01:42 ◼   ► I love you Myke. I'm just trying to imagine all the possible options

00:01:45 ◼   ► Steven can you please start the follow-up?

00:01:48 ◼   ► I would love to. So the first follow-ups not so much follow-up as it is

00:01:54 ◼   ► a continuation of our language discussion and

00:01:57 ◼   ► I'm gonna squash all hopes that Federico is going to read something and some foreign tongue

00:02:02 ◼   ► But Derek wrote in and was very confused Myke about a word that you use

00:02:08 ◼   ► Why you speak and why you when you write I've noticed in writing as well. Would you like to?

00:02:13 ◼   ► Tell us about about this this word choice of yours whilst

00:02:19 ◼   ► Yeah, which is well it's one of those words that when I when British people say them

00:02:24 ◼   ► I said them in varying ways and when I say it, it just sounds like a sound that I'm making

00:02:29 ◼   ► Which is whilst as opposed to an actual word

00:02:33 ◼   ► It's like the sound you make if someone like comes up behind you and like grabs you

00:02:36 ◼   ► Yeah, like it was like a the air coming out of you

00:02:39 ◼   ► So I guess maybe I'll try and slow it down like something. It's like whilst which is

00:02:45 ◼   ► h i l s t maybe some people say whilst I don't know but it's effectively a

00:02:51 ◼   ► different way of saying while and again I'm doing it again while while how do

00:02:56 ◼   ► you say that the actual way Americans say it I say while but I'm from the south

00:03:02 ◼   ► so who knows this is the worst podcast for any type of pronunciation because

00:03:07 ◼   ► we're all wrong in our own beautifully distinct ways although everything that

00:03:11 ◼   ► Federico says wrong is just more stunningly amazing. It actually

00:03:16 ◼   ► becomes more right than it was in the first place. Well in a very particular

00:03:20 ◼   ► way. This word whilst does mean the same as while and it's just one of those

00:03:26 ◼   ► words that fell out of American English so they mean exactly the same thing and

00:03:32 ◼   ► Derek who wrote and provided a link for a kind of an explanation of this but

00:03:39 ◼   ► yeah while and whiles to mean the same thing but they just kind of the meaning

00:03:44 ◼   ► remain the same but the word changed as it went from correct English to American

00:03:49 ◼   ► English. Correct English. Nice one Myke. We also have a blog post from listener Alister

00:03:59 ◼   ► speaking about the the Mac App Store and you know there was this this leak by our

00:04:05 ◼   ► Dan Council we talked about of all these apps that have left the Mac

00:04:09 ◼   ► App Store maybe weren't even ever there to begin with and Alistair kind of has a

00:04:14 ◼   ► counterpoint of saying well you know there are a lot of apps that that are

00:04:18 ◼   ► there that he uses and there's a bunch of good ones like things like Evernote

00:04:22 ◼   ► and 1Password and Tweetbot, PDF Pen Pro, Byword, OneNote a lot of good OS X apps

00:04:33 ◼   ► that are still in the App Store and some of these are App Store only like Tweetbot.

00:04:37 ◼   ► I know it's a common link between most of the really good apps that are in that

00:04:42 ◼   ► list. Right. iCloud. Yeah because you have to have you have to be in the App Store

00:04:49 ◼   ► to use iCloud for any sort of data store or syncing or anything and so Tweetbot

00:04:53 ◼   ► of course uses for example uses one or uses iCloud to sync things like

00:04:58 ◼   ► MuteList and RedPosition and all that sort of stuff that makes it really

00:05:02 ◼   ► seamless. Put it on your iPad, hook up your iPhone and you're in the same place.

00:05:06 ◼   ► And you know some of these apps are available outside of the App Store.

00:05:11 ◼   ► Things like Evernote I believe you can get directly from Evernote. I believe

00:05:15 ◼   ► you can get 1Password and PDF Pen Pro directly. But it's a good

00:05:21 ◼   ► post you go check it out but the question that leads me to is what you

00:05:25 ◼   ► just touched on Myke. If iCloud were available outside the App Store like who

00:05:30 ◼   ► would like is that holding a lot of these people there? I reckon so. I think it may be.

00:05:35 ◼   ► You think something like Tweetbot, like I feel like at this point they would keep that

00:05:38 ◼   ► outside the store and all of the apps that sell maybe in both places would maybe keep

00:05:44 ◼   ► it outside as well. I think it's clear from this list that you can see that there is a

00:05:51 ◼   ► market on the Mac App Store for certain types of apps like really high profile apps like

00:05:56 ◼   ► Evernote and OneNote and stuff like that. It's good for them to be on the App Store

00:06:02 ◼   ► because it's where maybe the most general of users will look for apps because it's the

00:06:06 ◼   ► one place, it's in the dock. You'd want it to be there. And I think it definitely shows

00:06:12 ◼   ► the Mac App Store isn't dead but I think it in an interesting way also highlights that

00:06:17 ◼   ► there is a really healthy market for the direct route as well because it's half of Alistair's

00:06:22 ◼   ► apps already split in half and I think that's probably the same for quite a lot

00:06:26 ◼   ► of our listeners. Yeah I definitely have a lot of stuff in my dock that comes

00:06:31 ◼   ► from the Mac App Store because again that it's not a choice for some of these

00:06:35 ◼   ► apps that's a decision those developers have made that is right for their

00:06:40 ◼   ► business but you know again it's it's just interesting that there's this sort

00:06:45 ◼   ► of dual world where I don't mean I imagine that you could just get by on

00:06:51 ◼   ► stuff that's in the Mac App Store and I'm sure that some users do but I mean I

00:06:55 ◼   ► think something even as widespread as Microsoft Office you know you've got to

00:07:01 ◼   ► get outside so I can't imagine the number of OS X users out there that are

00:07:06 ◼   ► living completely within the Mac App Store. I just don't see that being a big

00:07:13 ◼   ► section of the population. You know what what's interesting I guess as a thought

00:07:19 ◼   ► experiment would be in an ideal state with a sort of parity between the Mac

00:07:26 ◼   ► App Store and selling apps outside of the store. So imagine that you could

00:07:30 ◼   ► choose between having all these types of apps, so Audio Hijack, Bartender, all

00:07:36 ◼   ► these different powerful Mac apps on the Mac App Store, and at the

00:07:42 ◼   ► same time you could also choose to have these apps outside of the Mac App Store

00:07:45 ◼   ► but with the same benefits such as iCloud, what would you choose? And personally I would say

00:07:51 ◼   ► with the same features

00:07:53 ◼   ► with two options and the same product with no limitations

00:08:00 ◼   ► I would choose the Mac App Store just because it's easier. And so if only, and I truly believe that buying from the Mac App Store

00:08:07 ◼   ► presents an easier mechanism for all kinds of people.

00:08:11 ◼   ► And so that's why I believe it's such a shame that Apple isn't letting the Mac App Store grow and accept

00:08:16 ◼   ► different kinds of apps and different kinds of business models because

00:08:21 ◼   ► technically it is a better system for people. It's easier, it's safe,

00:08:26 ◼   ► you don't have to put in your credit card multiple times over and over. It's integrated with the system.

00:08:32 ◼   ► It's just old and limited and it's not growing anymore. And

00:08:36 ◼   ► that's why I think they're making a mistake here.

00:08:39 ◼   ► You know, it's okay, you got options, you can go to the website of a developer,

00:08:44 ◼   ► but you don't get the same features and you don't get the same experience.

00:08:47 ◼   ► And I know that, you know, with two options in an equal state,

00:08:52 ◼   ► I would always choose the Mac App Store, but right now I can't and, you know, that's why I think it should be improved.

00:08:58 ◼   ► Totally agree.

00:09:02 ◼   ► Adrian also points out that Apple have trademarked the word "AirPods"

00:09:07 ◼   ► and this is probably on the back of the conversations last week about the removal or potential removal of the

00:09:12 ◼   ► 3.5 millimeter jack for headphones and

00:09:15 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean Apple patents and trademarks a ton of things

00:09:19 ◼   ► But I guess when you look at that word air pods does seem like a root naming route that they would go down if they

00:09:24 ◼   ► made Bluetooth headphones

00:09:26 ◼   ► It doesn't mean they're gonna do it

00:09:28 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean they you know Apple has all sorts of patents and trademarks for all sorts of things

00:09:33 ◼   ► But I agree with you the name would fall into their

00:09:36 ◼   ► scheme pretty nicely. I think at some point they may

00:09:41 ◼   ► you know I have

00:09:44 ◼   ► the, but you have them too I think that is it the Powerbeats

00:09:48 ◼   ► the Bluetooth Beats. Oh no I got the

00:09:51 ◼   ► Bluetooth Beats Studio wireless ones

00:09:55 ◼   ► and I got the Jaybird BlueBuds. Jaybird, that's what I'm thinking of.

00:09:58 ◼   ► You know there are, Beats has one as well, there are products now that are

00:10:03 ◼   ► Sort of wireless earbuds and most of them have a cable in between them and like the microphone ends up kind of behind your ear

00:10:09 ◼   ► And it doesn't really work all that well and the things that I've tried so there are things like what this could be out there now

00:10:16 ◼   ► and

00:10:19 ◼   ► again, there's this tension with now that Apple owns beats of like

00:10:22 ◼   ► If Apple were to do this at some point, I think it'd be really far down the road

00:10:27 ◼   ► I think if they're going a lightning they're gonna have lightning ear pods for the foreseeable future

00:10:31 ◼   ► But if they do offer some sort of Bluetooth option, I'm sure it would be an additional product

00:10:37 ◼   ► You know Apple has always sold there's the premium earbuds

00:10:40 ◼   ► Or they have for a long time. I've got a pair of the original somewhere

00:10:44 ◼   ► But now there's this tension where they own beats as well. It's like would Apple have a Apple branded

00:10:49 ◼   ► AirPods type thing and also the beats wireless stuff and these other brands like I don't know

00:10:57 ◼   ► It's it's it'll be interesting to see how that plays out

00:10:59 ◼   ► Well, they're gonna put something in the box in theory, right? Maybe eventually, but I don't know.

00:11:05 ◼   ► That's why they might have AirPods and Beats. Beats won't be in the box.

00:11:10 ◼   ► Yeah, but I think if Apple drops the 3.5mm jack, I don't think they're gonna go straight to

00:11:17 ◼   ► Bluetooth. I think they're going to step in between with Lightning EarPods to keep from a

00:11:21 ◼   ► cost perspective. Yeah, I agree with that notion. We'll see. It'll be interesting either way.

00:11:27 ◼   ► Stephen you did something which I think is very expected but I think is unexpected for you

00:11:33 ◼   ► This is the part of the show where we talk about what we bought because we are all three weak

00:11:39 ◼   ► You are the weakest currently soft boned

00:11:42 ◼   ► Young man open-walleted

00:11:46 ◼   ► Is that is that a phrase we're gonna use now it is now

00:11:50 ◼   ► Yeah, so, you know I had

00:11:53 ◼   ► I picked up like the 32 gig iPad Pro just to check it out spend some time with it trying to understand it

00:11:59 ◼   ► Eventually get around to writing a review when I have time

00:12:02 ◼   ► And I had to return it because these things have a return policy

00:12:08 ◼   ► And at some point I'm gonna get flagged for doing stuff like this, but I haven't yet

00:12:12 ◼   ► and I went back to my iPad Air 2 for a couple of weeks and

00:12:17 ◼   ► was immediately pretty

00:12:21 ◼   ► cramped on the on the air too and felt like it was sort of

00:12:25 ◼   ► Sort of the wrong size

00:12:27 ◼   ► I mean if you remember back when Myke was right started and a lot of that sort of took off bigger than just our show

00:12:34 ◼   ► With CGP gray and like the conversation that the iPhone 6 for for him and I think for me too and for you guys

00:12:42 ◼   ► It's sort of the wrong size phone like the 5 5 s is really nice and this the plus is really nice

00:12:48 ◼   ► But the 6 kind of says in this weird in-between

00:12:51 ◼   ► Spot and I kind of am beginning to feel that way about the air - I still think Apple is right to start with that

00:12:58 ◼   ► Size, I think that I was at 9.7 inch display makes a lot of sense for a lot of people

00:13:03 ◼   ► but for me, it's just sort of the wrong size now where I want to do this multitasking and

00:13:08 ◼   ► Side-by-side stuff and it's just all especially the keyboard up very cramped on the air -

00:13:14 ◼   ► Where the iPad mini which I've also been using my kids have one and I've been using it and actually

00:13:20 ◼   ► There's a lot to like about the iPad mini still.

00:13:22 ◼   ► That stuff is so cramped on there doesn't make any sense.

00:13:25 ◼   ► I'm still using, if I pick up their iPad mini for something, I'm doing one app at a time.

00:13:28 ◼   ► But the the Pro and the Air 2 feel just like extremely different devices. And so I ended up going back and getting the

00:13:35 ◼   ► 128 gig

00:13:38 ◼   ► Pro because 32 gig is too small for me. And I really wish there was a 64 gig

00:13:43 ◼   ► so I don't have to buy the most expensive one, but that's life.

00:13:46 ◼   ► So yes, I've got it in my bag. I've been setting it up as new.

00:13:50 ◼   ► from like a clean start not showing my backup which is nice and

00:13:53 ◼   ► Yeah, so it's my iPad of choice for the next year

00:13:57 ◼   ► Welcome to the new club. I don't know what yeah, maybe this is teachy is right

00:14:02 ◼   ► I don't know, but so I had I had I had thoughts about that because

00:14:06 ◼   ► I

00:14:09 ◼   ► Think the mic was right air is coming to a close. You know with end of the year. It can be very

00:14:13 ◼   ► Gonna carry on about 18 months. No why?

00:14:19 ◼   ► Luigi the year Luigi was 18 months. We are not using the year of Luigi as a measurement unit Myke. I would like to

00:14:26 ◼   ► You know in in space stuff they just make basically make up measurement

00:14:32 ◼   ► So you have the astronomical unit which is the distance between the earth and the Sun which means nothing to anybody but humans

00:14:38 ◼   ► Right like like oh, it's one of you away. That's not a thing

00:14:41 ◼   ► Don't all measurements mean nothing to anybody but humans

00:14:44 ◼   ► well, it's

00:14:47 ◼   ► You have to listen to liftoff and find out if they're aliens this week. But um

00:14:50 ◼   ► So I agree with Federica the year of Luigi seems like a weird measuring stick

00:14:55 ◼   ► But I also don't think that Myke was right like at some point

00:14:59 ◼   ► It has to shift and I think it's Federica's turn to pick up the mantle

00:15:02 ◼   ► So I second the motion that it is the year of of teaching

00:15:07 ◼   ► Go with that for 2016. I bet he takes 18 months though

00:15:11 ◼   ► Maybe well, yeah, because I'm better than you Myke

00:15:16 ◼   ► Well, you got the Italian plumbers going on, yeah?

00:15:21 ◼   ► You know Myke edits this show, right? That's just going to be gone from the edit.

00:15:24 ◼   ► It's just a long beep.

00:15:26 ◼   ► You're going to make me sound awful.

00:15:28 ◼   ► No, Myke, I think you've done a pretty good job with 2015.

00:15:34 ◼   ► Many of your opinions have been right.

00:15:36 ◼   ► Yeah, it's been a good year, I must say. I can see that, you know, it feels like if you're

00:15:41 ◼   ► ever going to stop it, the turn of the year makes sense.

00:15:44 ◼   ► about buying things I have actually finally purchased a smart keyboard.

00:15:49 ◼   ► Oh yeah? It is currently 15 minutes away from my home. A man called Tony has it in a van

00:15:55 ◼   ► and he's driving it and I'm tracking him. You should get Tony on the podcast when he

00:15:58 ◼   ► shows up. I'll take the microphone downstairs and be like "how has your journey been today

00:16:02 ◼   ► Tony?" Can you really? No, I would have to take my entire computer with me. Or just buy

00:16:09 ◼   ► really long XLR cable. I haven't got the time to get that. Or invite Tony upstairs. There's

00:16:16 ◼   ► no world in which Tony knocks on my door and I say come to my bedroom in that he is gonna

00:16:21 ◼   ► do that, is he? That is a whole lot of a different show, that is not this show. Wow. So we have

00:16:30 ◼   ► one last piece of follow up and this is a question we've been asking ourselves for a

00:16:33 ◼   ► a while now, is Google Docs updated for iOS 9 yet?

00:16:37 ◼   ► - No! (laughs)

00:16:39 ◼   ► Drive is, right?

00:16:40 ◼   ► This has been established, Drive is.

00:16:42 ◼   ► So we know it's coming, right?

00:16:44 ◼   ► That is the kids' theory. - As is Chrome, right?

00:16:45 ◼   ► - As is Chrome, but Google Drive being updated

00:16:50 ◼   ► is kind of the first piece of that puzzle,

00:16:53 ◼   ► because that's the whole suite.

00:16:54 ◼   ► So fingers crossed, any day now.

00:16:58 ◼   ► I really would like that day to be now, though.

00:17:00 ◼   ► But it's coming.

00:17:02 ◼   ► This is just incredible, right? I mean it's been what, two, three months?

00:17:07 ◼   ► But this is what it was like when they were updating for the 6 Plus.

00:17:11 ◼   ► Well, it doesn't mean it's right. It's a stupid policy.

00:17:14 ◼   ► I'm not saying it's a good thing, I'm just saying it's their thing.

00:17:17 ◼   ► Yeah, it sounds surprising and it's always disappointing.

00:17:20 ◼   ► I mean, it's Google, it's not like we're asking some dude in some country with limited resources

00:17:28 ◼   ► to update a suite of apps for a new OS.

00:17:31 ◼   ► It's a big, huge company.

00:17:34 ◼   ► I really don't understand why they're doing this.

00:17:36 ◼   ► - It feels political to me.

00:17:37 ◼   ► - Okay, if it's political, then it's just bad for users.

00:17:42 ◼   ► - Yeah. - I mean,

00:17:43 ◼   ► you can have the ideas that you wanna have,

00:17:48 ◼   ► but it doesn't mean it's right for people like us,

00:17:50 ◼   ► or people in general.

00:17:53 ◼   ► I mean, it's just you use the app on the iPad Pro,

00:17:56 ◼   ► It's awful. And what's even worse is that I don't want to switch to something else

00:18:03 ◼   ► because I know I enjoy the benefits of Google's approach. It's all in

00:18:09 ◼   ► one system, one account. I got my Gmail, I got my Google Docs, I got my Google Calendar.

00:18:13 ◼   ► I don't want to switch to something else. I know that I got options. I could use

00:18:17 ◼   ► other services for document collaboration. I just don't want to

00:18:21 ◼   ► switch. And so I'm left here complaining alone, basically, with you too.

00:18:26 ◼   ► I'm in good company, but we don't have a good app.

00:18:28 ◼   ► Federico, you are not alone. I am here with you.

00:18:31 ◼   ► Thank you, Myke. Thank you.

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00:20:18 ◼   ► Switch support will kick into some topics this week. We have a couple of interesting

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00:22:36 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:22:37 ◼   ► So Apple provided us with some fantastic topic for today.

00:22:42 ◼   ► It was like an hour ago.

00:22:45 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:22:46 ◼   ► I was dropping my kids off for the day with some friends and was like, "Oh yeah, let me just..."

00:22:51 ◼   ► I was sitting in traffic. I was like, "Let me just open up, see what's going on."

00:22:54 ◼   ► And it was like, "Oh, I'm waiting for this train to pass by. I'm just sitting at the train crossing

00:23:00 ◼   ► and reading this iPhone battery case news."

00:23:03 ◼   ► and I had the sudden urge to hurl my phone into the moving train like that was my

00:23:07 ◼   ► Gut level response to this

00:23:10 ◼   ► so for some reason and that is my

00:23:13 ◼   ► overall feeling about this for some reason Apple have created a

00:23:18 ◼   ► battery case just for the iPhone 6 and 6s

00:23:21 ◼   ► Not the plus not the plus and it does a few different things

00:23:26 ◼   ► It gets you an additional 18 to 25 hours of battery life

00:23:29 ◼   ► That's kind of the main thing when you put the case on it helps boost your antenna signal with some integrated antennas or something

00:23:37 ◼   ► Yeah

00:23:39 ◼   ► And I guess that's kind of it. It's a silicon case. It's all integrated in one. There's only one piece

00:23:44 ◼   ► And it is god-awful ugly

00:23:47 ◼   ► Right, but what is happening here? So this is one of those things

00:23:52 ◼   ► I'm looking at this product and I urge you to go to the show notes

00:23:55 ◼   ► there'll be a link to the store so you can go check it out for yourself and

00:23:59 ◼   ► What we have here is a silicon case like the regular silicon cases with a huge backpack on it or something

00:24:06 ◼   ► it's got like this little brick that sits on the back which is the battery and

00:24:09 ◼   ► You can kind of see what they were trying to do, right?

00:24:12 ◼   ► They wanted to have one piece and if you want to have a battery and batteries are rigid

00:24:16 ◼   ► You can't have one piece

00:24:17 ◼   ► So they made a silicon case and they obviously couldn't have the battery fill up the whole thing

00:24:21 ◼   ► So there's just like area where you fold it back and you push the phone in and you fold it back over again

00:24:25 ◼   ► So like in theory like that is an interesting way to solve this problem

00:24:29 ◼   ► Mm-hmm, but there are many

00:24:32 ◼   ► Avenues to go down when talking about this. The first one is the fact that it just doesn't look good at all

00:24:38 ◼   ► It looks it looks like a pregnant iPhone. That's a great way of putting it. It's like there's a baby iPhone inside there

00:24:43 ◼   ► So obviously it's not the full size yet. It's only a baby iPhone. There's an original iPhone

00:24:48 ◼   ► Make one for the 6+ it would be the size of like a 4

00:24:54 ◼   ► Yeah, I have a thought that and I don't really think this but the thought crossed my mind that maybe they just had like a

00:25:02 ◼   ► barge full of

00:25:04 ◼   ► Extra iPod touch batteries and that's what's inside this thing

00:25:08 ◼   ► They had to come from somewhere right like where did those batteries come from maybe?

00:25:12 ◼   ► Yeah, so either like Phil Schiller can build a fortress for his kids out of these or

00:25:16 ◼   ► We can glue it into this silicone case and we can sell it for a hundred bucks like yeah

00:25:23 ◼   ► So it gets weirder because going to the verge and some other reviews this thing this case can't take up your phone from a

00:25:31 ◼   ► Zero to 100% charge, you know, and you also can't choose when to do it. It just does it itself

00:25:37 ◼   ► It's like all of that combined like with the weird design like if they made the whole back a battery

00:25:44 ◼   ► Like the mofis do could you get from zero to 100%?

00:25:48 ◼   ► Could you go from zero to 100 and then a little bit more even like some of these cases do like these do so

00:25:53 ◼   ► - So, yeah.

00:25:55 ◼   ► - And so like, that's why I think, like in my,

00:25:57 ◼   ► in the like sort of jokey part of my brain,

00:25:59 ◼   ► that this, whatever's inside this thing,

00:26:01 ◼   ► and I'm sure iFixit will take it apart

00:26:02 ◼   ► in about five minutes, that this is a part

00:26:05 ◼   ► that we already know about, and they're just like,

00:26:07 ◼   ► oh, let's just put it in a case.

00:26:08 ◼   ► - If this is an iPod Touch battery,

00:26:10 ◼   ► if they find a way of doing that,

00:26:11 ◼   ► then Federico loses the year of Federico

00:26:14 ◼   ► and it goes to Steven.

00:26:16 ◼   ► - I think so.

00:26:17 ◼   ► - Sorry Federico.

00:26:18 ◼   ► - I have a very short lived--

00:26:19 ◼   ► - I've already lost.

00:26:21 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:26:22 ◼   ► Oh God.

00:26:23 ◼   ► We've all lost something today.

00:26:24 ◼   ► - That escalated really quickly.

00:26:26 ◼   ► - And you know, maybe, and I don't know

00:26:28 ◼   ► if Apple has said anything about this.

00:26:30 ◼   ► I mean, maybe the thought is that, hey, this thing,

00:26:34 ◼   ► because it's silicone, it's gonna be easier to pick up.

00:26:36 ◼   ► You know, one thing I don't like about some

00:26:38 ◼   ► of the battery cases, especially some of the cheaper ones,

00:26:40 ◼   ► they're like that hard, slick plastic,

00:26:41 ◼   ► and it doesn't, it's kinda hard to hold onto.

00:26:43 ◼   ► The Mophie, I think, has got a soft touch finish,

00:26:45 ◼   ► which is nice, but maybe the thought is,

00:26:48 ◼   ► hey, it's easier to pick up, it's easier to hold.

00:26:50 ◼   ► Like, you kinda have a place for your fingers to go

00:26:52 ◼   ► on either side of this battery hump,

00:26:54 ◼   ► but either way, it is not good looking at all.

00:26:59 ◼   ► Man, look at this 360 degree view on the store,

00:27:01 ◼   ► and it's sort of hard to believe that this is real.

00:27:04 ◼   ► - Yeah, it doesn't look good,

00:27:05 ◼   ► but I read a couple of reviews this morning,

00:27:07 ◼   ► and especially the one from Joanna Stern.

00:27:10 ◼   ► Quite a few people saying that it's not sexy at all,

00:27:14 ◼   ► it's ugly, but it's comfortable to hold,

00:27:17 ◼   ► even more so than a Mophie.

00:27:18 ◼   ► So I don't own a Mophie,

00:27:20 ◼   ► I don't know what you guys are talking about.

00:27:22 ◼   ► I mean, I do know what you're talking about, I don't have any hands-on experience, but

00:27:25 ◼   ► I read from these reviews that because it's thinner at the top and bottom edges and the

00:27:31 ◼   ► battery is, you know, basically the bulge is in the middle of the case, it's more comfortable

00:27:39 ◼   ► than other battery cases.

00:27:40 ◼   ► Yeah, I can see that, and I can see that that's probably the reason that they did it.

00:27:44 ◼   ► But what you end up with is something that doesn't look good.

00:27:48 ◼   ► No, it doesn't look good.

00:27:50 ◼   ► And then there are like, you know, the weird parts of it.

00:27:52 ◼   ► It's like, okay, you made a battery case,

00:27:54 ◼   ► and then made the battery small,

00:27:57 ◼   ► so it doesn't actually do a full charge from zero to 100.

00:28:02 ◼   ► But the biggest part about all of this,

00:28:04 ◼   ► so let's park the way it looks for a bit,

00:28:06 ◼   ► is Apple have made a battery case.

00:28:09 ◼   ► What does that say?

00:28:11 ◼   ► - So a lot of people are saying, well, you know,

00:28:14 ◼   ► this is Apple making some sort of statement

00:28:17 ◼   ► they understand that the iPhone 6 battery life

00:28:21 ◼   ► is not what people want.

00:28:23 ◼   ► This is a big issue. - No, I don't think

00:28:24 ◼   ► they care about that, right?

00:28:26 ◼   ► - I don't think they care about it either.

00:28:27 ◼   ► I think that this falls in line with Apple's

00:28:31 ◼   ► more traditional approach towards accessories

00:28:34 ◼   ► where they, for a long time Apple's made,

00:28:37 ◼   ► I mean they made like this $100 leather iPod case

00:28:39 ◼   ► they introduced with the iPod Hi-Fi which was gorgeous.

00:28:42 ◼   ► I think I sold one of them in three years

00:28:44 ◼   ► at the Apple store, like it's Denizel.

00:28:47 ◼   ► They've made iPhone and obviously iPhone cases

00:28:50 ◼   ► for a long time now.

00:28:52 ◼   ► I think they look at the market and they see what's popular

00:28:54 ◼   ► and if there's a thing they can move into

00:28:57 ◼   ► and they think they can do it well, then they do it.

00:29:00 ◼   ► And I think maybe they missed the mark on this.

00:29:02 ◼   ► I don't think this case, this particular battery case

00:29:04 ◼   ► has problems, but I don't think it's like a political

00:29:08 ◼   ► statement about the iPhone 6/6s battery life.

00:29:12 ◼   ► Now the flip side of that coin is there's not one

00:29:17 ◼   ► for the plus so if they are saying the 6s battery life isn't good enough are they saying

00:29:21 ◼   ► the plus is good enough like then it sort of gets weird but I just think they look at

00:29:26 ◼   ► the accessory market and they think hey we can move into this space and I'm sure they're

00:29:30 ◼   ► gonna sell a bunch of these things because they're in the Apple store and they got the

00:29:33 ◼   ► logo on it but it doesn't make it less weird to me that they've done this sort of thing

00:29:39 ◼   ► in the past. Yeah I wonder why there's no 6 plus option I mean is it because it's too

00:29:46 ◼   ► big otherwise or because Apple seems to implicitly say "you got a 6+ so you got plenty of battery,

00:29:52 ◼   ► you don't need a case". I kinda would like to see a 6+ option, just mainly out of curiosity

00:30:00 ◼   ► to check it out. I don't think I'm gonna use this thing daily. But I feel like there's

00:30:06 ◼   ► no particular statement about "we're doing this so you people can understand the real

00:30:13 ◼   ► motivation. I don't think there's any subtext here about Apple making statements about batteries.

00:30:18 ◼   ► It's just about the money, you know. Apple knows that quite a few people are gonna buy

00:30:22 ◼   ► a case from Apple, a battery case from Apple, especially because it's on Apple.com. It'll

00:30:26 ◼   ► likely have a more prominent position in the Apple stores, and it's a problem common enough

00:30:32 ◼   ► that people are gonna... This is gonna make for a great Christmas present, I feel like,

00:30:38 ◼   ► And even if it's not maybe the best option, even if it doesn't get you from 0 to 100,

00:30:47 ◼   ► I feel like Apple is going to sell a lot of these.

00:30:50 ◼   ► And it doesn't matter if it looks ugly, or I mean it matters for us, but most people

00:30:56 ◼   ► just want some extra battery.

00:30:58 ◼   ► And I've seen people put the craziest accessories on their iPhones just to get a little extra

00:31:04 ◼   ► protection or battery.

00:31:05 ◼   ► So it doesn't surprise me if this case is going to sell a lot of units.

00:31:08 ◼   ► Sure, but if you allow me to be that guy for a minute, right?

00:31:13 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:31:14 ◼   ► You know, the whole thing about the iPhone battery life not changing over the years.

00:31:18 ◼   ► Oh no, yeah, I agree with that.

00:31:20 ◼   ► Their kind of line on it is that this is the amount that you need, right?

00:31:24 ◼   ► That's like, we stick to this level because we believe this level is the level that people

00:31:28 ◼   ► need in their daily life.

00:31:29 ◼   ► If you believe that, battery cases don't need to exist, but now you're making one.

00:31:34 ◼   ► selling them in the stores, selling mofis in the stores, you're kind of budging up against

00:31:38 ◼   ► that line but it's kind of okay because you can be like this is an accessory that people

00:31:42 ◼   ► are looking for, we allow these things to be made by the MFI program so we put them

00:31:49 ◼   ► in our stores. But actually taking the time to develop, design, manufacture and sell your

00:31:55 ◼   ► own one is a whole different scenario when you are the company that can control the battery

00:32:00 ◼   ► life in the phone. Like it all just is a little weird and all it does is it makes us mad because

00:32:06 ◼   ► we all want more battery life in our phones. And I don't know, you were talking about this

00:32:13 ◼   ► last week Federico actually and I was talking back to my iPhone a little bit when you were

00:32:19 ◼   ► saying about how we want the phones to stay as they are and then Apple make them thinner.

00:32:25 ◼   ► We complain but then get used to the thinness and we're happy with it. And I kind of agree

00:32:29 ◼   ► with that right like that I like that they're thinner but I really didn't feel like it needed

00:32:35 ◼   ► to be thinner the last time and it really doesn't need to be thinner than this like

00:32:40 ◼   ► if they make it thinner yeah you get used to it and you like it but do you need your

00:32:45 ◼   ► next iPhone to be thinner than your current one? Like if you look at it right now like

00:32:50 ◼   ► if they came out with the iPhone 7 and it was the same thickness would that annoy you?

00:32:56 ◼   ► I don't know, but it's not a matter of being annoyed by sameness, it's being surprised

00:33:02 ◼   ► by difference.

00:33:03 ◼   ► Yeah, but the main surprise is, like, oh, the battery life is the same again.

00:33:08 ◼   ► I don't know, I mean, would you switch an hour of battery life for a sexier phone?

00:33:16 ◼   ► I mean, I know I would choose battery life myself, but, you know, I'm gonna sound stupid

00:33:23 ◼   ► for saying this but a lot of people buy iPhones for the way they look just because it's an

00:33:27 ◼   ► iPhone and just because it's sexy and new. I'm sorry but that's just... you're not gonna

00:33:33 ◼   ► hear this kind of opinion on tech podcasts and tech blogs but a lot of people buy an

00:33:38 ◼   ► iPhone just because it looks good. You can make it look new without making it thinner

00:33:41 ◼   ► though right? You can do a different case design. Thinner doesn't have to be one of

00:33:45 ◼   ► those things. I know the argument that you're making, I can see where you're coming from

00:33:50 ◼   ► But it was just something that I wanted to give that opinion and obviously unlike regular

00:33:56 ◼   ► listeners I can force my opinions into the show which I just did.

00:34:01 ◼   ► But yeah all of this is it's just it's really strange all this is just very strange to me

00:34:06 ◼   ► and if you couple this with that Apple watch charger the Apple accessory game from a design

00:34:14 ◼   ► perspective is real peculiar right now.

00:34:17 ◼   ► Yeah, it's bizarre world. That charger is really strange. I wonder too, like why...

00:34:28 ◼   ► If you're gonna sell an accessory like this, and I'm sure they hope that it does well,

00:34:32 ◼   ► it's actually a little rare in the Apple world that it is actually relatively priced pretty

00:34:40 ◼   ► competitively. I mean, yes, you can go like get battery cases. There's one like Amazon

00:34:44 ◼   ► right now it's a lot cheaper but if you're gonna buy a name-brand battery

00:34:48 ◼   ► case you're gonna spend you know 70 80 100 bucks yeah they are that amount of

00:34:52 ◼   ► money but they do have bigger batteries in there that's true and they don't look

00:34:56 ◼   ► like whatever this thing looks like but it is it is a strange time if you had to

00:35:02 ◼   ► choose would you be on a desert island with the new iPhone case or with the

00:35:08 ◼   ► magic mouse and the lightning connector at the bottom that doesn't bother me so

00:35:13 ◼   ► so much and it's the same like people people are saying about like the pencil

00:35:16 ◼   ► you know charging in the iPad like but like I said whilst that is in elegant

00:35:21 ◼   ► that is actually really useful that it charges that way because you're using

00:35:27 ◼   ► the thing this has happened to me happened to me like two days ago I'm

00:35:29 ◼   ► using it and I get a little notification it says your pencil has 5% of battery

00:35:33 ◼   ► life so my great just pop it in the side for like five minutes and it was like at

00:35:37 ◼   ► 70% or something crazy like that I was like great perfect rather than me having

00:35:41 ◼   ► to go and find somewhere to plug it in. Like that one, I'm totally on board of that one.

00:35:45 ◼   ► Like it is weird and elegant, kind of dangerous for everyone, but it makes a lot of sense.

00:35:51 ◼   ► And the thing is, when you're using a battery case, I think you kind of, you understand

00:35:58 ◼   ► what's going on here. Like, you know, if I ever use a Mophie, it's like, right, I'm using

00:36:02 ◼   ► this thing, my phone is now bigger than it should be. I'm okay with that because I'm

00:36:07 ◼   ► in the battery life. I don't know if you necessarily need to make it so it's like

00:36:11 ◼   ► oh it still feels kind of like I'm just wearing a case and I have battery like

00:36:15 ◼   ► because then you put the thing on the desk and you press the home button and

00:36:18 ◼   ► the thing that he flips over and hits you on the back of the hand like it's

00:36:21 ◼   ► gonna be all kinds of weird. But they did what they had to do. Yeah I don't know you know it I

00:36:29 ◼   ► guess the upside of this case and like this other stuff that Apple is doing is

00:36:33 ◼   ► they can tie like the case to iOS in some interesting ways but there's even

00:36:40 ◼   ► some drawbacks there but like I think the bot the end of the day if someone is

00:36:43 ◼   ► going to like buy a new iPhone or buy a battery case or buy a watch charger like

00:36:49 ◼   ► looks do matter and it's troubling that these are now two accessories in a row

00:36:54 ◼   ► from Apple that don't look very good and I think our collective opinion but you

00:36:59 ◼   ► know like is like having this battery meter in the notification center is that

00:37:04 ◼   ► enough to sell this over a mophie like I'm not sure that it is I'm sure some

00:37:08 ◼   ► people buy it but I think at the end of the day it's not gonna like Kyle Kyle's

00:37:13 ◼   ► of the gray just tweeted something remember when getting sure locked by

00:37:18 ◼   ► Apple was a bad thing now it's just marketing for your superior product

00:37:22 ◼   ► that's a really good insight yeah he's a he's a real thought leader in the

00:37:28 ◼   ► technology space. But I like that idea that, I think it's well said that this isn't, you

00:37:36 ◼   ► know, and maybe you can never really say it about Apple accessories. I don't think Apple

00:37:39 ◼   ► accessories were ever like leading the charge. Like their cases now are nice, but they're

00:37:45 ◼   ► better cases out there. Their keyboards and mice are nice, but they're arguably better

00:37:50 ◼   ► keyboards and mice out there. So maybe this just falls in line in the tradition of like,

00:37:55 ◼   ► you want something Apple made, we sell it and it does some kind of cool stuff

00:37:58 ◼   ► others can't do, but there's trade-offs. But if you want something that's more

00:38:04 ◼   ► powerful or works in a different way than Apple thinks, so look, there's lots of

00:38:07 ◼   ► third-party ones. But what if you just want something nicer? I'm not trying to

00:38:12 ◼   ► justify what Apple is doing here. I think it looks ugly. But what if you want

00:38:17 ◼   ► something that feels nicer in this case, you know? I mean it's... Yeah, and that's

00:38:21 ◼   ► clearly an angle they're going for right like all those reviewers saying it like

00:38:25 ◼   ► that that is something that Apple has gone for and it seems like they've done

00:38:28 ◼   ► that if it feels nice in your hand like that is a very important metric to a lot

00:38:32 ◼   ► of people this yeah yeah and so yeah so I think there's again it's just trade

00:38:36 ◼   ► offs it kind of depends on the priorities that you have if I'm gonna

00:38:39 ◼   ► buy a battery case I want like the most battery sure I can stuff into a case and

00:38:44 ◼   ► so this isn't going to be for me it reminds me it reminds me and forgive me

00:38:47 ◼   ► if I'm gonna bring headphones into the discussion just briefly. It reminds me of how many people

00:38:52 ◼   ► make fun of me every time I tweet about liking my Beats headphones. I know I have better options and

00:38:59 ◼   ► there's plenty of better headphones and

00:39:02 ◼   ► but I just

00:39:04 ◼   ► besides liking the fun sound of the Beats headphones, you know with the bass that's higher than normal

00:39:11 ◼   ► they just look cool and they just look nice and you may be like

00:39:15 ◼   ► "Oh, I'm not gonna spend my dollars on headphones just because they look nice."

00:39:19 ◼   ► Yes, I will spend my euros in this case on headphones that look nice because I

00:39:24 ◼   ► wanna wear my headphones also if I'm in public, you know, I'm whatever I am, and I

00:39:29 ◼   ► don't want to look like a stupid human robot with a bunch of huge

00:39:34 ◼   ► headphones on my ears. You know, there's an argument to be made about the fact

00:39:38 ◼   ► that technology isn't just about tech specs, and I feel like that's kind of

00:39:42 ◼   ► obvious, you know. But when you read these reviews and you hear most podcasts, I want

00:39:49 ◼   ► to be the guy who brings the fashionable aspect into the discussion, you know.

00:39:55 ◼   ► Thanks!

00:39:56 ◼   ► Yeah, I want to spend my money on something that is not the best technological option,

00:40:05 ◼   ► but maybe feels nicer or looks nicer. Is that stupid? Maybe. So I'm happy to be stupid.

00:40:12 ◼   ► That's my conclusion.

00:40:13 ◼   ► - I have to just wrap this conversation up

00:40:15 ◼   ► by just pointing out something that I noticed

00:40:17 ◼   ► on the case page, like in the highlights section,

00:40:21 ◼   ► where they'll say like, oh, internet use up to 18 hours

00:40:24 ◼   ► in LTE, that kind of thing.

00:40:25 ◼   ► One of the highlights is designed by Apple.

00:40:27 ◼   ► - That's not even words.

00:40:30 ◼   ► - Like product benefit, we designed it.

00:40:33 ◼   ► There's your product benefit right there.

00:40:35 ◼   ► - Yeah.

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00:43:15 ◼   ► So I feel like we kind of knew that this was coming.

00:43:19 ◼   ► Nevertheless it is sad that it has happened.

00:43:22 ◼   ► Dropbox announced yesterday that they're killing Carousel!

00:43:25 ◼   ► Boo! Always so sad! Oh, and Mailbox.

00:43:28 ◼   ► Tell us about your feelings, Myke.

00:43:32 ◼   ► My feelings are very complex.

00:43:35 ◼   ► I knew this was coming. It was obvious to me.

00:43:38 ◼   ► Right?

00:43:39 ◼   ► The app wasn't being updated.

00:43:41 ◼   ► And there was no real product direction.

00:43:44 ◼   ► Nothing seemed to be happening.

00:43:46 ◼   ► But it was one of those things that even though I knew it was coming, I didn't want to let go.

00:43:50 ◼   ► because I love mailbox.

00:43:52 ◼   ► I've grown my kind of workflows into mailbox,

00:43:57 ◼   ► the whole system of moving email around in lists,

00:44:00 ◼   ► which I haven't found any other app that does that,

00:44:03 ◼   ► which I love.

00:44:04 ◼   ► So I kind of just move around things that are most important.

00:44:06 ◼   ► I physically move them around so I don't lose things.

00:44:09 ◼   ► I snooze emails quite a lot.

00:44:11 ◼   ► That's all going away because mailbox is going away.

00:44:14 ◼   ► And this scenario isn't like when an app usually is killed

00:44:19 ◼   ► where it will work, it will just continue to work,

00:44:22 ◼   ► and then one day it will stop working,

00:44:24 ◼   ► but if you really don't want to let go,

00:44:25 ◼   ► you can at least hold onto it for a little while longer,

00:44:27 ◼   ► because it won't be broken until iOS updates break it.

00:44:31 ◼   ► But a lot of Mailbox's features are done server-side,

00:44:34 ◼   ► like the snoozing and stuff like that,

00:44:35 ◼   ► and on February the 26th, they're just killing all of that.

00:44:38 ◼   ► So everything you have snoozed

00:44:40 ◼   ► will just appear in your inbox again,

00:44:41 ◼   ► and all of that stuff is just gonna break.

00:44:44 ◼   ► So let's get back to Mailbox in a minute,

00:44:48 ◼   ► because there's a bigger discussion there about kind of why email apps seem to be basically

00:44:54 ◼   ► impossible to survive on iOS. I want to talk about carousel. Why did that exist? Why did

00:45:04 ◼   ► carousel exist at all? I think there was a minute before our show killed the entire industry

00:45:11 ◼   ► that photo services looked like they were going to be a thing that people were interested

00:45:17 ◼   ► in and we had Everpix and all these other companies that again we accidentally shut

00:45:22 ◼   ► down and I think Dropbox saw that and said you know Dropbox was in a unique position

00:45:29 ◼   ► at the time because they already had storage infrastructure in place you know that that

00:45:35 ◼   ► famous Everpix sort of like big article after they after they went away that was in the

00:45:42 ◼   ► Basically, their company boiled down to,

00:45:45 ◼   ► "We can't pay our AWS bill."

00:45:48 ◼   ► Dropbox already had that well in hand.

00:45:50 ◼   ► They already had a lot of syncing

00:45:52 ◼   ► and file management tools available to them.

00:45:54 ◼   ► And so I think from Dropbox's perspective,

00:45:57 ◼   ► it was sort of an obvious, I don't wanna say easy,

00:46:00 ◼   ► I'm sure it was a difficult project,

00:46:02 ◼   ► but a sort of natural evolution of the Dropbox product.

00:46:06 ◼   ► Say, "Hey, we're gonna have a sort of sidecar app

00:46:10 ◼   ► that is really based around photos and viewing your photos and storing them and backing them

00:46:18 ◼   ► up to Dropbox and doing all that stuff. And it was actually really nice. And I think that

00:46:24 ◼   ► the things like iCloud photo library and, lol, and photos on the Mac and Windows is

00:46:33 ◼   ► doing some interesting photo management stuff these days even though no one ever talks about

00:46:36 ◼   ► I think that it just sort of like it was a thing that was going to happen on the internet and then it wasn't and

00:46:42 ◼   ► I think it was just something that you know Dropbox and get their business

00:46:47 ◼   ► It didn't make sense to keep putting money into but I think at the time

00:46:51 ◼   ► I think it made a lot of sense and I was excited by it

00:46:53 ◼   ► I was on the north betas I used it for a long time

00:46:55 ◼   ► It was a really nice product

00:46:57 ◼   ► But then it just didn't go anywhere and I think they I think they were right to let it go

00:47:01 ◼   ► if that's indeed the case.

00:47:03 ◼   ► But it was a funny one, right? Because nothing ever happened.

00:47:06 ◼   ► They put it out there and they said they were gonna

00:47:08 ◼   ► kind of continue building it, but they didn't really...

00:47:11 ◼   ► They released a couple of updates.

00:47:14 ◼   ► No, they didn't really change anything.

00:47:17 ◼   ► It was just a bunch of minor additions.

00:47:20 ◼   ► And it was like... I guess the big problem

00:47:23 ◼   ► for these kind of services was

00:47:26 ◼   ► Apple and Google jumping into the game with iCloud for Library and Google Photos.

00:47:31 ◼   ► And I feel like those two companies alone kind of kill the need for a third-party storage

00:47:39 ◼   ► services for photos, you know, because a lot of people just want to take pictures and let

00:47:44 ◼   ► the device take care of the pictures in the cloud.

00:47:46 ◼   ► And you can do that with iCloud on an iPhone.

00:47:49 ◼   ► You can do that on Android with Google Photos automatically.

00:47:54 ◼   ► And so it's become a problem, you know, for these companies.

00:47:57 ◼   ► We've seen Everpix.

00:47:58 ◼   ► we've seen Loom, which became Carousel under Dropbox,

00:48:02 ◼   ► and Picture Life is another example.

00:48:05 ◼   ► - Is that still around?

00:48:06 ◼   ► - It's around, it's been acquired by another company

00:48:09 ◼   ► that also does something kind of like Plex

00:48:11 ◼   ► for media on your own server, I think.

00:48:14 ◼   ► I don't even remember the name,

00:48:15 ◼   ► but it's something about media.

00:48:17 ◼   ► It's like not just pictures, but also music and movies,

00:48:20 ◼   ► that kind of stuff.

00:48:21 ◼   ► So that's not really around anymore, basically.

00:48:27 ◼   ► And it's become a problem if you're a third party and you want to build a service on top of storing pictures for people when people have better, more native options on their devices.

00:48:44 ◼   ► So I would say launching Carousel was mostly a problem of bad timing for Dropbox.

00:48:52 ◼   ► Because just what, like a year, two years later?

00:48:56 ◼   ► I don't want to say it became useless, because there's plenty of use cases for storing pictures in Dropbox

00:49:04 ◼   ► and having a better browsing interface.

00:49:07 ◼   ► But does it justify having a separate team and a separate product?

00:49:11 ◼   ► Does it help Dropbox get more customers?

00:49:14 ◼   ► I think that's the question that Dropbox was asking themselves.

00:49:17 ◼   ► Does having Carussella and Mailbox help us get more people to use our service?

00:49:23 ◼   ► Especially when Dropbox is in a kind of difficult phase,

00:49:26 ◼   ► that they want to kind of sell the product to more business customers,

00:49:32 ◼   ► and they want to get more users.

00:49:34 ◼   ► I don't... I feel like it's the right choice to get rid of this,

00:49:40 ◼   ► But it's still sad, especially because Mailbox was an excellent product.

00:49:44 ◼   ► But if you read the message that they have shared in the blog post, and I think in an

00:49:49 ◼   ► email to customers maybe, they have kind of given up on email.

00:49:53 ◼   ► They're basically saying, "We want to solve other problems that generate email in the

00:49:58 ◼   ► first place.

00:49:59 ◼   ► So we don't want to solve email anymore, and we're going to focus on paper."

00:50:02 ◼   ► Which is arguable, again.

00:50:04 ◼   ► But still, they have basically given up on reinventing email and, you know, reinventing photo management.

00:50:11 ◼   ► Alright, so, I mean, we can probably assume that they killed Carousel because I expect there probably wasn't anybody using it.

00:50:17 ◼   ► But maybe Mailbox wasn't growing, but I'm sure it still had a relatively large user base.

00:50:24 ◼   ► I guess the question is, would you start using mPain for Dropbox just because of Mailbox?

00:50:31 ◼   ► No, you wouldn't.

00:50:32 ◼   ► Yeah, and that's a problem for Dropbox.

00:50:35 ◼   ► - So why did they buy it?

00:50:36 ◼   ► - I have no idea, because people change, Myke,

00:50:39 ◼   ► because strategies change.

00:50:42 ◼   ► - Teaching me something about life here today.

00:50:43 ◼   ► - Yeah, I guess that maybe two to three years ago,

00:50:47 ◼   ► they kinda had this vision and now it didn't work out,

00:50:50 ◼   ► so let's just kill the app.

00:50:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, I always had the thought in the back of my mind

00:50:55 ◼   ► that Dropbox could become an iCloud-like deal.

00:51:00 ◼   ► I mean, they already had the file stuff.

00:51:01 ◼   ► Maybe they have, like there were rumors a long time ago

00:51:04 ◼   ► that Mailbox was also going to include an email service

00:51:06 ◼   ► and then like adding contact and calendar sync

00:51:09 ◼   ► that is not too far fetched.

00:51:12 ◼   ► For a minute you could kind of get the feeling

00:51:15 ◼   ► that Dropbox was going to make a move

00:51:17 ◼   ► in becoming like a consumer sort of cloud company

00:51:20 ◼   ► in a new, in sort of a new way from where they were.

00:51:23 ◼   ► But I think since then, to Federica's point,

00:51:26 ◼   ► there the ground has shifted and I think with Dropbox Pro

00:51:30 ◼   ► and Dropbox for business, which is actually a really compelling, like,

00:51:34 ◼   ► it's nice. I've got clients who are on it.

00:51:36 ◼   ► I've got friends who use it at work. It seems really great. Um,

00:51:40 ◼   ► I think that's where they realize where the money is. And, uh,

00:51:44 ◼   ► and so they're pursuing that as opposed to this, this other vision. And you know,

00:51:47 ◼   ► mailbox got caught in the crossfire of that. It seems like.

00:51:50 ◼   ► So why? So they bought it, screwed up. Why did they kill it?

00:51:55 ◼   ► Why didn't they sell it or let somebody take it? Like the tech is there, right?

00:51:59 ◼   ► They could have just sold it on.

00:52:01 ◼   ► They just couldn't be bothered.

00:52:03 ◼   ► - Maybe we could take it over.

00:52:04 ◼   ► - Oh my God, can you imagine connected mail?

00:52:07 ◼   ► - I know like a little bit of CSS.

00:52:09 ◼   ► That's enough to keep email client up, right?

00:52:12 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's all web views.

00:52:15 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:52:16 ◼   ► - I don't know, maybe they just don't care

00:52:18 ◼   ► about discontinuing the product.

00:52:19 ◼   ► Or maybe they wanna reuse some of the tech

00:52:22 ◼   ► in an upcoming product or services or features like paper.

00:52:27 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:52:28 ◼   ► Maybe they have a... there must be a... I don't want to believe they're not selling it because they don't want to, like out of spite.

00:52:34 ◼   ► Maybe they have some kind of reason, maybe they wanna... although I do know that a lot of people left the mailbox team, Dropbox.

00:52:42 ◼   ► But maybe they wanna reuse the technology somewhere else. That's the only possible reason I can think about.

00:52:48 ◼   ► What could you use though? Like it's email technology. I understand where you're coming from, but it's like what could you do with that?

00:52:54 ◼   ► No idea, Myke. Organization of stuff into lists? I don't know.

00:53:01 ◼   ► It's just frustrating, right? The whole thing is just real frustrating.

00:53:04 ◼   ► I kind of want to hear from your perspective what you're gonna do, exactly.

00:53:09 ◼   ► Do you know, I actually don't know. So, I have a plan, right?

00:53:13 ◼   ► But the plan means I have to completely rethink the way that I use email.

00:53:18 ◼   ► So it's not really a plan, it's more like giving up.

00:53:21 ◼   ► Like I have the practicals, but I don't have the overall thinking.

00:53:26 ◼   ► So like, I'm gonna use Outlook on iOS, because I was starting to use it more anyway, because

00:53:33 ◼   ► Mailbox on the iPad Pro was horrible, like just horrible, so I was starting to use Outlook

00:53:39 ◼   ► more there.

00:53:40 ◼   ► That app is pretty good, and it's got most of what I want.

00:53:45 ◼   ► The one thing that it has that I won't be using is the snoozing feature, so they have

00:53:50 ◼   ► So you can take an email and you can say "remind me about this on Monday" or whatever, which

00:53:53 ◼   ► I like, but that doesn't sync with any desktop client because the Outlook desktop client

00:54:00 ◼   ► is not only horrific but doesn't have that feature.

00:54:04 ◼   ► Because they're different, right?

00:54:05 ◼   ► You've got the iOS ones and the Mac ones, they're completely different code bases, they

00:54:08 ◼   ► came from different places.

00:54:09 ◼   ► So I'm going to have to get rid of the idea of snoozing email, but I think maybe more

00:54:14 ◼   ► importantly for me though is the reordering. I really like that and I

00:54:19 ◼   ► can't do that anymore because what I'm most likely gonna do with snoozing stuff

00:54:25 ◼   ► is just get rid of the email. I'm just gonna get used to dealing with it right

00:54:30 ◼   ► when it comes in I'm just gonna have to deal with it, sort it and file it

00:54:33 ◼   ► because a lot of snoozing that I would do is like say for example I got

00:54:37 ◼   ► feedback for connected on Thursday. I don't need that until at least Monday so

00:54:43 ◼   ► So I would snooze it until Monday and then pick it up and deal with it.

00:54:47 ◼   ► So what I'm going to have to do now, most likely, is set up filters and folders and

00:54:51 ◼   ► stuff and then just know to go in and check them.

00:54:54 ◼   ► But that's not an elegant solution.

00:54:56 ◼   ► Waking up on Monday morning and having the connected feedback or whatever in my inbox

00:55:02 ◼   ► is perfect because on that day I'm going to go and write up the documents.

00:55:06 ◼   ► So could you see how I built a workflow around it all?

00:55:09 ◼   ► So I'm going to have to change all of that and that's the hardest part of it all, is

00:55:12 ◼   ► changing it all. So today I have Mail.app, I opened up Mail.app and I don't want to cry

00:55:18 ◼   ► about it, I hate Mail.app. And I'm maybe going to try some other stuff. I saw this desktop

00:55:23 ◼   ► app of LinkedTwit floating around called Polymail, which looks kind of pretty, and I think I'm

00:55:30 ◼   ► going to get on there alpha, so that sounds terrific.

00:55:33 ◼   ► No, look at you all fancy and testing betas and alphas of all things.

00:55:37 ◼   ► I was just tweeting about it and they said send me your email address.

00:55:40 ◼   ► Nice. I think you're gonna be interested in trying the...

00:55:46 ◼   ► You know, I've been working on this review about To-Do, the iOS task manager.

00:55:52 ◼   ► And they have this upcoming email integration. It's detailed on the To-Do website.

00:55:56 ◼   ► You can read about the product. I don't know if it'll work for you.

00:56:01 ◼   ► I definitely think you're gonna be interested in that kind of feature.

00:56:06 ◼   ► But you will be able to read more details soon, Myke.

00:56:09 ◼   ► Myke and Steven.

00:56:11 ◼   ► I'm interested to see, but I don't know how I feel about changing my task list manager

00:56:16 ◼   ► because the email I thought I used has gone away.

00:56:19 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah, I know, I know.

00:56:21 ◼   ► But we'll see, I mean, look at this, it's too much change, man.

00:56:25 ◼   ► New year, new resolutions, Myke.

00:56:28 ◼   ► So you gotta make it a goal of the next year to reimagine your life around email and tasks.

00:56:36 ◼   ► That's a funny goal.

00:56:39 ◼   ► That's a fun way to start the year. Email and tasks. What could be better?

00:56:44 ◼   ► Oh, yeah, sounds fantastic.

00:56:46 ◼   ► I can feel so frustrated by this news.

00:56:52 ◼   ► Because it's annoying. It's really annoying.

00:56:56 ◼   ► Yeah, no, no, no. I can imagine. It's like if something like editorial or Python install

00:57:02 ◼   ► went away for me. I can only imagine being emailed such an essential piece of your...

00:57:08 ◼   ► You know, you communicate with a lot of people, you have to manage a lot of people every day for the network.

00:57:12 ◼   ► So I can only imagine how big of a problem email is for you.

00:57:16 ◼   ► Because one of the other things I'm hoping for is a cross-platform solution.

00:57:23 ◼   ► That's ideally what I need, just so that I can build a real system.

00:57:28 ◼   ► So there's a couple that are promising.

00:57:30 ◼   ► Yes, exactly. Did you see the tweet from the Spark email client

00:57:35 ◼   ► about adopting mailbox-like snoozing. That could be a solution for you.

00:57:41 ◼   ► Yeah, I've seen stuff like that, but the problem is Spark is iPhone only.

00:57:45 ◼   ► But it's going to the iPad and the Mac.

00:57:48 ◼   ► But when? It's 2016, they're saying. And AirMail as well.

00:57:52 ◼   ► I know it's pretty public to have an iPhone app in beta,

00:57:56 ◼   ► but they don't seem to have an iPad app.

00:57:59 ◼   ► So that might work, but I want something that's everywhere.

00:58:03 ◼   ► Because if it's not everywhere, I can't be in on that system.

00:58:07 ◼   ► So I can't start snoozing stuff in Spark and then trying to use MailApp because everything

00:58:12 ◼   ► will just explode.

00:58:14 ◼   ► A lot of this stuff, it gets really upset when you move it from platform to platform

00:58:18 ◼   ► because these things are horrifically hacking the way that IMAP works.

00:58:23 ◼   ► It's just horrible, the sort of stuff that they're doing to your email.

00:58:28 ◼   ► If you want to take advantage of these systems, you've got to be all in on that system.

00:58:32 ◼   ► So there are some potential contenders, but nobody is really there yet.

00:58:40 ◼   ► I'm optimistic, Myke, that you're gonna find the solution within the next, let's say, six

00:58:45 ◼   ► months.

00:58:46 ◼   ► By then, I've most likely changed my system again, like the way I work.

00:58:51 ◼   ► Because I can't not work for the next six months waiting for an email app.

00:58:55 ◼   ► So what's the single feature that you want to be able to have?

00:58:59 ◼   ► Is it snoozing? Is it lists? Is it the manual sorting of emails?

00:59:03 ◼   ► You've got to pick one feature, because you have so many requirements.

00:59:07 ◼   ► I feel like you're not going to find the perfect mailbox replacement.

00:59:11 ◼   ► But maybe if you only pick one feature, maybe you can find that.

00:59:15 ◼   ► I really think, because the snoozing is easier for me to deal with.

00:59:19 ◼   ► Because a lot of the stuff that I snooze emails for is just for convenience.

00:59:23 ◼   ► So I could get used to just going in and checking folders, right?

00:59:27 ◼   ► isn't a difficult thing to do but the reordering of email there's no other

00:59:30 ◼   ► way there's no way for me to do that I either can do it or I can't do it so I

00:59:34 ◼   ► think that's probably the main feature that I'm looking for.

00:59:36 ◼   ► It happens with any third-party thing right like we talked about what would the world be

00:59:39 ◼   ► like without Twitter well you know we may find out one day this stuff doesn't

00:59:43 ◼   ► always doesn't always last forever and I think the best bet for something like

00:59:49 ◼   ► this is to find something that does it as part of their service and not rely on

00:59:53 ◼   ► on a third-party like mailbox or any of these other mail clients. Mail clients

00:59:59 ◼   ► seem like a really hard business to be in. So I do some of this sorting but I do it

01:00:03 ◼   ► all in Gmail rules and filters and so my relay inbox would be crazy without this

01:00:09 ◼   ► this just catacomb of mail rules that I have set up to sort things into folders

01:00:16 ◼   ► as they come in and mark them as read and it can help but yeah I mean if

01:00:21 ◼   ► reordering or things like that are what you want then it's gonna be harder to

01:00:24 ◼   ► to find it I think. Yeah and setting up filters and rules and all that stuff

01:00:29 ◼   ► sounds kind of horrific right like it just sounds like an epically difficult

01:00:35 ◼   ► thing to try and work out right? Mm-hmm. So we'll see maybe maybe I can get there

01:00:42 ◼   ► at some point but it's I think it's gonna be a tough road back but there is

01:00:46 ◼   ► still some more that I want to talk about in regards to this and kind of

01:00:50 ◼   ► Dropbox as a company and kind of understanding what's going on next

01:00:54 ◼   ► clearly they've made these changes for a reason but before we do that let me take

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01:02:47 ◼   ► All right, so Federico, what do you think is going on at Dropbox?

01:02:53 ◼   ► I feel like they're getting squeezed by all sides.

01:02:57 ◼   ► And most of the idea of the core Dropbox service is now available in the products and in the

01:03:09 ◼   ► devices as a feature of the iPhone, of Android phones, and every company is into file storage

01:03:18 ◼   ► now.

01:03:19 ◼   ► You can have Apple, Amazon, Google, Microsoft even.

01:03:24 ◼   ► And I feel like Dropbox started as a very simple idea and they built a business on top

01:03:30 ◼   ► of this idea.

01:03:31 ◼   ► But now the basic feature, which is storage in the cloud with integration with your smartphone

01:03:39 ◼   ► and tablets and computers is now available elsewhere as well.

01:03:44 ◼   ► Now I am a Dropbox user and I use the service every day and I feel like Dropbox still has

01:03:51 ◼   ► many many details and features, little differences that other companies don't get exactly right.

01:04:00 ◼   ► There's a simplicity and almost all the integrations that Dropbox has with third party apps, I

01:04:08 ◼   ► cannot find those features in other solutions. I don't trust iCloud Drive as much as I trust

01:04:14 ◼   ► Dropbox because Dropbox lets me see versions of my files. It lets me share a file with

01:04:19 ◼   ► other people, it lets me share a folder, it lets me view deleted files and restore them.

01:04:25 ◼   ► So there's many... So the basic idea is available in other services, which is, you know, you

01:04:30 ◼   ► get an X amount of gigabytes in the cloud. But the way that Dropbox does it, it's still,

01:04:36 ◼   ► in my opinion, unique, at least for what I do and for what we need to do.

01:04:41 ◼   ► So I don't want to see Dropbox going away, but that's not to say that other companies

01:04:47 ◼   ► are getting faster at becoming Dropbox than Dropbox is at expanding and reaching more

01:04:55 ◼   ► customers and more users.

01:04:56 ◼   ► And I feel like this continuation of Carousel and Mailbox is sort of a sign of wanting to

01:05:04 ◼   ► more on the idea of Dropbox, but there's a weird contrast between this news and the upcoming

01:05:13 ◼   ► Dropbox paper. I still don't quite understand how focusing on Dropbox and doing paper at

01:05:19 ◼   ► the same time works, and I don't know if this paper product will contribute to the bottom

01:05:25 ◼   ► line of the company, because that's what the matter is, really. They want to grow the bottom

01:05:29 ◼   ► as they say, they want to get more customers, they want to get more paying customers.

01:05:33 ◼   ► And I don't know if this paper is going to be another nice, good-looking experiment,

01:05:38 ◼   ► you know, it's still in beta, or if it's going to be a key feature that you sign up

01:05:45 ◼   ► and pay Dropbox for. So, I don't know how I feel about Dropbox.

01:05:51 ◼   ► I feel like they're a big company now, but they have been in many ways,

01:05:55 ◼   ► over the past two years especially, they have been very slow at understanding what's changed.

01:06:02 ◼   ► Being a storage company today is different than 2010. You have all these competitors from Apple to Microsoft,

01:06:11 ◼   ► you have people communicating in a different way, with Slack and with mobile messaging.

01:06:18 ◼   ► It's not the same scenario five years ago.

01:06:22 ◼   ► And even if you just look at iOS,

01:06:25 ◼   ► Dropbox is being slow at adopting the latest features

01:06:28 ◼   ► for multitasking and iOS 9.

01:06:31 ◼   ► So I love the company, but it's not changing fast enough

01:06:36 ◼   ► or not changing, evolving and growing fast enough,

01:06:39 ◼   ► at least from my user perspective.

01:06:41 ◼   ► I have no idea about their finances,

01:06:43 ◼   ► but I feel like they should,

01:06:46 ◼   ► Focusing more is a welcome change of pace.

01:06:51 ◼   ► I'm kind of concerned or maybe confused about paper.

01:06:55 ◼   ► I really don't know how it fits with the rest of the company,

01:06:58 ◼   ► what they want to do, but I guess we'll see.

01:07:01 ◼   ► Maybe it'll be discontinued next year.

01:07:04 ◼   ► - When I look at paper, it's like,

01:07:06 ◼   ► I can see what you're trying to do,

01:07:08 ◼   ► but you're claiming to build something simple,

01:07:12 ◼   ► and I don't know if people want simple.

01:07:15 ◼   ► I think they want, if they want anything,

01:07:17 ◼   ► they want something that replaces Google docs,

01:07:18 ◼   ► which is complicated and full featured.

01:07:21 ◼   ► So while simple can be good,

01:07:23 ◼   ► simple means not as many features sometimes.

01:07:25 ◼   ► And I don't know if that is a good thing,

01:07:27 ◼   ► but it does look pretty, but though,

01:07:31 ◼   ► I can't remember what it was, but like I tried it out

01:07:32 ◼   ► and there was just like a bunch of things in there

01:07:34 ◼   ► that I needed that it didn't have.

01:07:36 ◼   ► If we were gonna use it for like this, for example,

01:07:39 ◼   ► what we're doing right now.

01:07:41 ◼   ► There's one other thing that I wanted to touch on

01:07:43 ◼   ► before we finished today,

01:07:44 ◼   ► which is the public perception of Dropbox after a move like this.

01:07:48 ◼   ► Because I know I feel differently about them.

01:07:50 ◼   ► Because in my mind now, they've changed from scrappy upstart

01:07:54 ◼   ► to a bigger company, because a big company will do this, right?

01:07:57 ◼   ► Acquire things, soak up the talent, and then eventually shut them down.

01:08:01 ◼   ► And this doesn't seem to have been their intention,

01:08:03 ◼   ► but it's what they've done.

01:08:04 ◼   ► And it makes Dropbox feel a little bit more monolithic to me,

01:08:10 ◼   ► You know, like this big company, this big entity that's doing this stuff.

01:08:14 ◼   ► I'm part of this.

01:08:16 ◼   ► And I think the majority of my feelings towards this is their use of the word

01:08:20 ◼   ► sunsetting everywhere.

01:08:21 ◼   ► Yeah, I know.

01:08:23 ◼   ► Like they tweeted that the app update subscription for mailbox said added

01:08:29 ◼   ► important sunset information.

01:08:31 ◼   ► That was the description.

01:08:32 ◼   ► Like, I don't like it when companies talk that way.

01:08:35 ◼   ► Like be open to what you're doing.

01:08:37 ◼   ► You're shutting it down.

01:08:39 ◼   ► Like, they said that in some of the email communication, but some of their public-facing

01:08:44 ◼   ► stuff they're saying there's sunset in this product.

01:08:46 ◼   ► Like it's a really bad buzzword and it's not something that people understand because it

01:08:52 ◼   ► doesn't make any sense because the word is created to try and put a positive spin on

01:08:56 ◼   ► a negative thing.

01:08:57 ◼   ► So it just doesn't make any sense.

01:08:59 ◼   ► And then there's a little banner in the app now that says mailbox will be shut down in

01:09:03 ◼   ► X days.

01:09:04 ◼   ► Like, why didn't they go with shut down everywhere?

01:09:05 ◼   ► They shut down verbiage in certain places and then sunsetting in others.

01:09:10 ◼   ► I think moves like this are bad marketing moves and they deal in a company's perception.

01:09:14 ◼   ► And now, any company that uses the term "sunsetting" gets a little check in my brain.

01:09:20 ◼   ► Because I just think it's a disgusting word to use for what you're actually doing.

01:09:25 ◼   ► It's one of those words you would hear from the Silicon Valley TV show.

01:09:32 ◼   ► It's almost like a parody, really.

01:09:34 ◼   ► What it is is a sleight of hand trick, right? They're like "hey look over here, we're using

01:09:38 ◼   ► this lovely little word, people like sunsets right? You like sunsets? Ahh closed!"

01:09:43 ◼   ► Yeah, they're trying to use this beautiful, evocative, poetic image of a sunset to really

01:09:50 ◼   ► communicate that a bunch of people have lost their jobs and a product is gone.

01:09:54 ◼   ► I don't know in this scenario if people have lost their jobs, it seems like they've actually

01:09:58 ◼   ► just sucked up those engineers. Or people left Dropbox.

01:10:02 ◼   ► That's how it seems anyway, because I haven't seen anything that people left or lost their

01:10:08 ◼   ► jobs and basically what it seems like is it was in maintenance mode and then got shut

01:10:13 ◼   ► down.

01:10:14 ◼   ► So what I assume is Dropbox just had a... what I assume is they just got a bunch of

01:10:19 ◼   ► talented developers and moved them onto different parts of the team that are more important

01:10:23 ◼   ► to them at the time but I just really wish that they didn't say sunsetting.

01:10:28 ◼   ► Makes me sad Federico.

01:10:29 ◼   ► I agree, I agree.

01:10:31 ◼   ► Sad as a sunset.

01:10:32 ◼   ► Dropbox is ruining sunsets for me now.

01:10:34 ◼   ► [laughs]

01:10:35 ◼   ► Whenever I... Every evening now I just think about the fact that my email is going away.

01:10:38 ◼   ► You just... I can picture the scene, you're just gonna be holding your girlfriend's hand

01:10:43 ◼   ► on top of a hill in London, looking at the sunset and all you can think about is Dropbox and mailbox.

01:10:50 ◼   ► A single tear runs down my face and she turns to me and she's like,

01:10:53 ◼   ► "This sunset, it makes you emotional?" and I was like, "No, darling, I'm thinking about my email."

01:10:58 ◼   ► Think of all those emails, all those snoozes Myke, they're all gone forever and they're

01:11:03 ◼   ► not coming back.

01:11:04 ◼   ► We can all look forward to Snoozepocalypse on February 26th.

01:11:09 ◼   ► If you want to find our show notes for this week's episode head on over to relay.fm/connected/69

01:11:15 ◼   ► you can also find links on that page to become a member of Relay FM and give your money to

01:11:21 ◼   ► this show if you love this show we would appreciate that.

01:11:24 ◼   ► If you want to find us online head over to the following places.

01:11:28 ◼   ► maxstories.net for Federico's writing, 512pixels.net for Stevens.

01:11:32 ◼   ► And you can find us all on Twitter.

01:11:33 ◼   ► Federico is @theti-chi, V-I-T-I-C-C-I.

01:11:36 ◼   ► Steven is @ismh and I am @imike, I-M-Y-K-E.

01:11:41 ◼   ► Thanks again to our sponsors for this week's episode.

01:11:43 ◼   ► The great people over at Foot Cardigan, Casper and Braintree.

01:11:48 ◼   ► Most of all, thank you for listening and we'll be back next time.

01:11:51 ◼   ► Until then, say sunset everybody.

01:11:53 ◼   ► sunset in the show.