Connected

00:00:00 ◼   ► [Music]

00:00:07 ◼   ► From Relay FM, this is Connected, episode 101. Today's show is brought to you by Text

00:00:13 ◼   ► Expander from Smile. My name is Myke Hurley. I'm joined by Mr. Steven Hackett. Hello,

00:00:17 ◼   ► Steven Hackett.

00:00:18 ◼   ► Hello, Michael Hurley.

00:00:20 ◼   ► And Federico Vittucci. Ciao, Federico.

00:00:22 ◼   ► Buona sera, Myke. Como estas?

00:00:24 ◼   ► Oh, so fancy.

00:00:25 ◼   ► I just asked you, how are you?

00:00:27 ◼   ► I know, well I don't know, all I know is that it sounds nice.

00:00:30 ◼   ► Just say Benny.

00:00:31 ◼   ► Benny.

00:00:32 ◼   ► Okay, thank you.

00:00:34 ◼   ► Steven, you can have the follow-up back this week.

00:00:38 ◼   ► That's good, because the first piece of follow-up is about how you are wrong.

00:00:42 ◼   ► Mmm.

00:00:43 ◼   ► You made a comment that you can make espresso in your AeroPress,

00:00:49 ◼   ► which, if you're not a coffee drinker, just hit the 30-second skip for like six times.

00:00:55 ◼   ► Jordan wrote in to say to meet the minimum press requirement for an Italian espresso

00:01:00 ◼   ► which is 116 PSI which seems bonkers to me you would need to put 460 pounds on the Aeropress

00:01:08 ◼   ► plunger.

00:01:09 ◼   ► So I would say in theory you could do it but you would break the Aeropress trying to trying

00:01:17 ◼   ► to make it happen so I will concede that Myke was not right about espresso.

00:01:23 ◼   ► See the thing is you don't want to say you were wrong, you're just gonna say you were

00:01:27 ◼   ► not right. That's a subtle difference.

00:01:31 ◼   ► Yeah I prefer was not right than wrong.

00:01:35 ◼   ► I bet you do.

00:01:36 ◼   ► Yeah I prefer was not right. Because as well that keeps it in the branding, you know? Myke

00:01:42 ◼   ► and right, just sometimes what's in the middle differs.

00:01:46 ◼   ► Speaking of branding, just a quick aside from the follow up. So anyway you were not right

00:01:51 ◼   ► about the coffee but speaking of branding I'm writing my review and there

00:01:56 ◼   ► was a section where I needed to have an example of an app and Myke was kind

00:02:00 ◼   ► enough to let me use the one two three branding. Yeah we are we are co-branding

00:02:06 ◼   ► a brand new creation. Mm-hmm co-branding a co-creation because we're co-creators

00:02:11 ◼   ► of an example I think. Wow. Thank you Myke. So the one two three family of

00:02:18 ◼   ► applications is growing. Will expand onto new horizons. New horizons and the

00:02:26 ◼   ► introduction of the new app and the 123 family will be appearing sometime in

00:02:32 ◼   ► September. Mm-hmm that's right. Probably before Notetaker is released I'm afraid.

00:02:37 ◼   ► Working hard but. Before we move on just to put the amount of weight on the

00:02:42 ◼   ► Aeropress plunger into context that you know normal people could relate to it's

00:02:47 ◼   ► It's 12 iMac G3s.

00:02:49 ◼   ► Just uh, I don't think the AirPress would hold up to that.

00:02:52 ◼   ► More people can relate to just the flat out 460 pounds of pressure than 12 iMac G3s.

00:02:59 ◼   ► Also that's not even your entire collection.

00:03:01 ◼   ► No, I have more than that.

00:03:04 ◼   ► I wouldn't use Blue Dalmatian for that.

00:03:06 ◼   ► You don't want that anywhere near your coffee.

00:03:09 ◼   ► Up next we talked about rich link previews in the iOS 10 messages application.

00:03:15 ◼   ► if I send Myke a text with a tweet on it like the tweet would kind of be loaded

00:03:19 ◼   ► in a little preview or if you send a Mac stories link the Mac stories logo would

00:03:24 ◼   ► be there. We talked about you know what sort of data load that would require, why

00:03:29 ◼   ► is messages still like reloading if you peek and pop then actually open it in

00:03:34 ◼   ► Safari. We had some anonymous feedback that I thought was interesting that the

00:03:39 ◼   ► preview that little preview window is using OpenGraph tags which are basically

00:03:44 ◼   ► meta tags on the page that specify the URL, image, title, description, etc. You see

00:03:50 ◼   ► these used in other places so if you put in, again we'll use Mac stories as an example,

00:03:55 ◼   ► if you paste in a Mac stories link to Facebook or Slack, the Mac stories artwork

00:03:59 ◼   ► loads for you automatically. That's an open graph tag pointing to a

00:04:03 ◼   ► PNG on Federico's server somewhere saying hey this is what the logo is, this is the

00:04:08 ◼   ► title, etc. And it seems that iMessage is using this to build these little

00:04:13 ◼   ► previews and where the feedback gets a little stranger I'm not quite sure how

00:04:18 ◼   ► this works Federico I'm curious if you do is that this still requires iMessage to

00:04:23 ◼   ► download the page then parse for the tags and then show you the preview so if

00:04:31 ◼   ► you text somebody a link and they see the preview and they they peek and pop

00:04:35 ◼   ► to get a preview and they push through to open it in Safari you've loaded the

00:04:39 ◼   ► the page potentially three times doesn't seem super efficient to me.

00:04:45 ◼   ► Federico have you been able to kind of like see what's going on here in your time with

00:04:49 ◼   ► the betas?

00:04:50 ◼   ► So I've been actually researching this since last year because Apple launched with iOS

00:04:55 ◼   ► 9 with universal links and spotlight search.

00:04:58 ◼   ► They had a session and documentation for developers on how to add web markup to links and to search

00:05:05 ◼   ► results and basically Apple is adopting a few technologies here. It's not just

00:05:10 ◼   ► OpenGraph. OpenGraph is used for like featured images, titles, descriptions but

00:05:16 ◼   ► also they're supporting schema.org which is used for like structured semantic

00:05:20 ◼   ► results such as like restaurant reservations and hotel rooms that kind

00:05:23 ◼   ► of stuff. They're also supporting Facebook and Twitter cards which are

00:05:27 ◼   ► kind of based on a subset of OpenGraph tags. My understanding is

00:05:33 ◼   ► Apple was using OpenGraph and Schema.org for Spotlight and last year for Reach

00:05:41 ◼   ► link previews in Notes and this year they're also adopting OpenGraph in

00:05:45 ◼   ► iMessage. There's an inconsistency between the implementation in iMessage and

00:05:49 ◼   ► Notes in the current beta of iOS 10 so basically in iMessage you get richer

00:05:55 ◼   ► results. For example when you paste a link to a tweet in iMessage in the beta

00:05:59 ◼   ► 3, not only do you get the text of the tweet, but you also get like a large image preview

00:06:06 ◼   ► of any image attachments to the tweet.

00:06:08 ◼   ► You do not get the image attachment in Notes.

00:06:11 ◼   ► My theory is that you're not required as an app to go fetch the entire HTML of the web

00:06:19 ◼   ► page, but you can just query the link for tags.

00:06:22 ◼   ► So it's not like you're downloading a 5 megabyte HTML page, you're just querying for those

00:06:28 ◼   ► tags and assembling the information from those tags so you can just fetch the

00:06:31 ◼   ► title, fetch the featured image and fetch say the description for example which is

00:06:36 ◼   ► still a data you know you're still consuming data so that's why maybe you're

00:06:41 ◼   ► you're required to accept the preview. I currently don't

00:06:46 ◼   ► understand that this is why I have a note in my in my draft I don't understand

00:06:49 ◼   ► if you need to confirm that you want to load previews the first time and then

00:06:54 ◼   ► after the first time it's on by default. I don't understand if there's any way to

00:06:58 ◼   ► disable them after the first time and I don't understand if actually it's a bug

00:07:02 ◼   ► and you need to confirm every time. So it's still... the behavior is changing, it

00:07:07 ◼   ► was different in beta 1, different in beta 2, different in beta 3, so it's still

00:07:10 ◼   ► changing. It seems like there's no setting to say I always want to load

00:07:15 ◼   ► those previews or let me decide, let the recipient decide. I feel like there's

00:07:20 ◼   ► going to be some clarification before the GM, at least that's what I hope. If

00:07:25 ◼   ► Apple wants to add an extra confirmation step I feel like a better solution would

00:07:29 ◼   ► be to let the recipient load the preview the first time and then after that

00:07:35 ◼   ► previews are always gonna be on by default, that seems like a reasonable way

00:07:40 ◼   ► to implement this because you know that you're gonna load, I don't know, like 500

00:07:45 ◼   ► kilobytes of featured image previews in your iMessage conversation on cellular

00:07:50 ◼   ► data, that could be, but I don't think you're required to download an entire webpage every

00:07:57 ◼   ► time, that would be kind of silly, so if anyone has any more details or, you know, I couldn't

00:08:03 ◼   ► find any documentation from Apple on this, so if you have links, send us an email, Steven

00:08:08 ◼   ► will include it in the follow-up.

00:08:10 ◼   ► My feeling is like, if you have to press a button to load a preview every time, it kind

00:08:16 ◼   ► of negates the point of having the preview in the first place.

00:08:20 ◼   ► Yeah, but you can see how Apple wants you to confirm that you want to consume a little

00:08:25 ◼   ► more data to load previews.

00:08:28 ◼   ► It's not even a lot of data, but I mean, when you're downloading, like, let's say that I

00:08:31 ◼   ► have a featured image and it's a 1MB JPEG for a story on the website, I can imagine

00:08:38 ◼   ► why Apple wants you to confirm that, you know?

00:08:41 ◼   ► Because maybe people are gonna share a lot of links and they're gonna, you know, end

00:08:46 ◼   ► up with 10 megabytes extra every day in iMessage that adapt over a month of usage.

00:08:52 ◼   ► I'm not sure how Messenger for example or WhatsApp handle this.

00:08:55 ◼   ► Maybe they do some server-side optimization to reduce the size of the images that they

00:09:01 ◼   ► load in reaching previews.

00:09:03 ◼   ► Maybe?

00:09:04 ◼   ► Could be?

00:09:05 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:09:06 ◼   ► Yeah, a little bit of a mystery.

00:09:08 ◼   ► I too tried looking in the documentation on the developer website and there's just nothing

00:09:13 ◼   ► there yet.

00:09:14 ◼   ► super uncommon I think sometimes people hear us say that and they're surprised

00:09:18 ◼   ► that not every single thing is documented and the reality is Apple's

00:09:22 ◼   ► documentation really focuses on where developers interact with the system and

00:09:26 ◼   ► not necessarily what the system is doing internally. It's more much more about

00:09:30 ◼   ► API's and endpoints and that sort of thing as opposed to this is what our

00:09:35 ◼   ► first party app is doing behind the scenes. That sort of stuff they really

00:09:38 ◼   ► just don't share very often.

00:09:39 ◼   ► Last but a follow-up is from our friend and yours Rob Lewis that the new TV OS

00:09:46 ◼   ► beta allows you to connect a PlayStation controller. Myke I'm gonna let you talk about this.

00:09:54 ◼   ► This is so strange. This goes to a point link and it's shown to a Reddit thread that kind of

00:09:58 ◼   ► explains what's going on here. If you put a PlayStation controller into pairing

00:10:03 ◼   ► mode, so Bluetooth pairing mode, as you would to connect it to another like

00:10:08 ◼   ► PlayStation or to another device like a Mac or something because you can do that

00:10:12 ◼   ► with PlayStation controllers. If you go to settings and go to the pairing mode on

00:10:17 ◼   ► tvOS it shows up as wireless controller. It doesn't seem like as of right now it

00:10:24 ◼   ► is completely implemented. For example there is no button that maps to the menu

00:10:30 ◼   ► button in tvOS to allow you to navigate back through menus and stuff but it's

00:10:35 ◼   ► working and I feel like it can't be an accident because it hasn't worked before.

00:10:43 ◼   ► I don't know, because I don't really understand the way this stuff is implemented enough I

00:10:48 ◼   ► would say but it seems strange that it would just magically start to work now.

00:10:53 ◼   ► I hope that this is something that Apple is looking to do.

00:10:56 ◼   ► My feeling is if Apple are not willing to make their own first party controller they

00:11:03 ◼   ► They should support everything in the sense of have their own program that you can go

00:11:07 ◼   ► through like the MFI program, but also to allow support for other Bluetooth controllers

00:11:15 ◼   ► like the Xbox controller and the PlayStation controllers.

00:11:18 ◼   ► If Apple doesn't want to make something great that's first party, let me use my other great

00:11:24 ◼   ► games controllers to play games on the Apple TV as long as they have enough buttons for

00:11:28 ◼   ► it.

00:11:29 ◼   ► a minimum threshold or maybe they just bake in support for PlayStation 4 or Xbox controllers

00:11:36 ◼   ► and go with it.

00:11:37 ◼   ► I mean at this point Apple is clearly not taking games seriously on tvOS.

00:11:44 ◼   ► I mean we knew this was gonna happen, Apple is not you know by any standard gaming company

00:11:50 ◼   ► they just believe in the App Store and they're saying you know everything's fine on the App

00:11:54 ◼   ► Store you can have free games in-app purchases and you know it's fine.

00:11:58 ◼   ► not treating the tvOS apps or something more like the Nintendo eShop or the PSN or Xbox Live,

00:12:03 ◼   ► which is fine, a bit disappointing maybe, but not surprising. So at this point anything that makes

00:12:10 ◼   ► the experience better works for me, I mean give us anything really. When I have support for

00:12:15 ◼   ► PlayStation and Xbox One controller it's fine, you know, Apple is not doing any first-party

00:12:20 ◼   ► controller and obviously the PlayStation and the Xbox Ones are much better options than what you

00:12:26 ◼   ► you get from the Apple Store.

00:12:29 ◼   ► Even the Stratos controller is fine,

00:12:32 ◼   ► but it's not PlayStation, it's not DualShock, right?

00:12:35 ◼   ► So if you wanna have basic support for those controllers,

00:12:38 ◼   ► I mean, all right, give us support for those

00:12:41 ◼   ► because they're better.

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00:15:08 ◼   ► So Steven, you have mentioned on a previous episode that you had joined the multi-pad

00:15:13 ◼   ► lifestyle and picked up a 9.7 inch iPad Pro to go along in the conjunction with

00:15:18 ◼   ► your 12.9 inch iPad Pro. I predicted that you would keep them both but I think

00:15:26 ◼   ► you're about to say that #Myke was not right about this as well today.

00:15:30 ◼   ► It is another instance of Myke was not right. I told you that I was not going to

00:15:35 ◼   ► stay in the multi-pad lifestyle, that it was a a mere season of experimentation

00:15:43 ◼   ► So yeah, so I stuck with the 9.7 and I think you have a bunch of questions for me that

00:15:50 ◼   ► in the document all seem very charged and angry even.

00:15:54 ◼   ► But in short, before we get to those questions, I only really spent time with the 9.7 because

00:16:02 ◼   ► I was setting one up for a consulting client and then they ended up leaving town.

00:16:08 ◼   ► So I was stuck with their iPad for a little while and it's nice.

00:16:16 ◼   ► And using it and the 12.9 side by side you really can see the differences.

00:16:21 ◼   ► Just last night I was at the Apple store and sat down at the 12.9 inch again just to make

00:16:27 ◼   ► sure I hadn't made a mistake.

00:16:29 ◼   ► And there's a lot to like about the 12.9.

00:16:32 ◼   ► I like both.

00:16:33 ◼   ► I think I just like the 9.7 a little bit more.

00:16:36 ◼   ► So what is your current situation then? Your own personal iPad ownership situation?

00:16:43 ◼   ► It is a 9.7 Pro. Ok, so you have bought one.

00:16:47 ◼   ► I sold the 12.9 and bought my own 9.7 Pro. Ok, so I'm very confused about all of this.

00:16:55 ◼   ► Me too. Because the 12.9 inch iPad changed your opinions

00:16:59 ◼   ► about working with the iPad. You have had 9.7 inch iPads forever.

00:17:03 ◼   ► 12.9 showed you that there was work that you could do writing that you could do on the

00:17:08 ◼   ► iPad but now you've gone down a size.

00:17:10 ◼   ► Are you still going to work on the iPad?

00:17:13 ◼   ► I am.

00:17:14 ◼   ► So to revisit the discussion from I guess almost a year ago, it's hard to believe that

00:17:19 ◼   ► 12.9 has been out you know nine months.

00:17:22 ◼   ► I really felt like that the big iPad Pro for the very first time unlocked the iPad from

00:17:28 ◼   ► a productivity perspective.

00:17:31 ◼   ► And thinking back on early days of this show and of the prompt, Federico doing his job

00:17:36 ◼   ► on an iPad Mini now seems completely bonkers to me because the bigger screen did sort of

00:17:43 ◼   ► open me up to that world for the first time.

00:17:47 ◼   ► And that's all still true.

00:17:48 ◼   ► I still am working on the 9.7, I'm still doing the same work I was doing on the 12.9, which

00:17:53 ◼   ► is very heavily focused on my writing.

00:17:55 ◼   ► A little bit of relay administrative stuff, but mostly writing.

00:18:00 ◼   ► But what came to be my overall feeling about the 12.9

00:18:04 ◼   ► is that the size and the weight made me

00:18:10 ◼   ► less likely to carry it around.

00:18:14 ◼   ► And so I, again, like Federico,

00:18:16 ◼   ► I've been using the iPad up and walking around the house,

00:18:21 ◼   ► so taking it into the kitchen

00:18:22 ◼   ► if I'm cooking lunch for myself,

00:18:23 ◼   ► and listening to something,

00:18:26 ◼   ► or even taking notes on something,

00:18:27 ◼   ► just as I do other things.

00:18:29 ◼   ► And the 12.9, I felt, again, this is all personal,

00:18:34 ◼   ► subjective stuff, really wasn't as portable as I wanted.

00:18:38 ◼   ► But what I still credit to the 12.9

00:18:42 ◼   ► and what I still believe today is that the iPad Pro

00:18:45 ◼   ► is a great machine for getting certain types of work done.

00:18:49 ◼   ► And for me, that's different from Umic

00:18:51 ◼   ► and that's different from what Federico wants.

00:18:53 ◼   ► But for me, it sort of took over this set of tasks.

00:18:57 ◼   ► 9.7 is still plenty good for. In some ways this is I think a very worthwhile

00:19:03 ◼   ► experiment that if I had never used the 12.9 I don't think I ever would have had

00:19:08 ◼   ► the realization that I could do work on a tablet comfortably and a lot of

00:19:14 ◼   ► that's the 12.9 inch screen but what I really think is so much of that is just

00:19:18 ◼   ► the split screen and slide over stuff. I spoke about this on MacPowerUsers when I was on

00:19:22 ◼   ► their show a couple weeks ago about doing you know research for history

00:19:28 ◼   ► article and having YouTube up and then having notes up and then swapping YouTube

00:19:32 ◼   ► out for one writer and being able to work and have my notes always visible

00:19:36 ◼   ► all that's so possible on the 9.7 now it's smaller and the smart keyboard is

00:19:43 ◼   ► like a super big necessity because multitasking with the software keyboard

00:19:48 ◼   ► up is hilariously not good.

00:19:51 ◼   ► I mean you know your slide over app or your you know your app on the side is

00:19:54 ◼   ► very small at that point but I'm still working on it and I'm using the smart

00:19:58 ◼   ► keyboard and I'm still writing on it but the the benefit is is that I am much

00:20:03 ◼   ► more likely to pick it up and take it take it with me and you know I carry a

00:20:08 ◼   ► 15 inch MacBook Pro as some listeners may know and the 12.9 iPad obviously

00:20:13 ◼   ► nowhere close to the size of the weight of the 15 inch but the the 9.7 is just

00:20:19 ◼   ► so so drastically smaller than my MacBook Pro that I am encouraging is

00:20:26 ◼   ► encouraging to just take the iPad with me and leave the Mac behind and so I

00:20:31 ◼   ► have answered your question I'm still doing the work I'm still still believe

00:20:35 ◼   ► in that work I still think that the 12.9 taught me that but I think there's

00:20:38 ◼   ► lessons, at least for what I'm doing, are still applicable on the smaller size.

00:20:44 ◼   ► So you're not finding that it had anything really to do with the 12.9 inch iPad, like

00:20:50 ◼   ► from a physical perspective to allow you to do the work that you wanted to do on the iPad.

00:20:55 ◼   ► It was maybe some of the advancements that came with multitasking and then a device that

00:21:01 ◼   ► could convince you to do it that has now allowed you to carry this thinking on into the smaller

00:21:07 ◼   ► iPad as well. I think that yeah I think you just said what I tried saying.

00:21:11 ◼   ► It's a much more concise way. It's just it's really interesting right because I

00:21:18 ◼   ► agree mostly with what you're saying because I am able to do the majority if

00:21:25 ◼   ► not all of the work that I do on any iPad on any iPad right like I'm able to

00:21:30 ◼   ► take the 9 7 and do the work that I would do on the 12 9 but it's just a

00:21:34 ◼   ► little bit more cramped but it's perfectly functional especially with an

00:21:40 ◼   ► external keyboard for me because it makes the split screen more useful with

00:21:44 ◼   ► the smaller device because the keyboard isn't covering the screen up but it's

00:21:50 ◼   ► for me I'm still picking up the 12 9 to do serious things in because I like to

00:21:57 ◼   ► do that. It's just very... I don't know, it just continues the ongoing struggles you have

00:22:05 ◼   ► with devices. I feel it more than anybody that I know, you buy and return and buy and

00:22:10 ◼   ► return so much stuff.

00:22:12 ◼   ► Quiet.

00:22:13 ◼   ► I feel like I'm in the opposite situation as Steven. So you know, I bought a small iPad

00:22:20 ◼   ► Pro when I was in San Francisco and I used it for a while to get an idea of iOS 10, but

00:22:28 ◼   ► since I put iOS 10 Beta 3 on my big iPad Pro, which is where I get all of my writing work

00:22:35 ◼   ► done, I haven't picked up the small Pro at all, even in those situations where before

00:22:42 ◼   ► I said "Yeah, it's nice to be able to have a smaller iPad", but it's just... as I feared,

00:22:49 ◼   ► I think the context switching for me doesn't really work, so it's nice to have a small iPad,

00:22:55 ◼   ► but I think it'll go to Sylvia real soon.

00:22:59 ◼   ► I've got to say, I am really not enjoying post-100 connected.

00:23:03 ◼   ► I'm wrong about everything.

00:23:06 ◼   ► I'm sorry, Myke.

00:23:08 ◼   ► It's just a slow realization that people are not you, you know?

00:23:12 ◼   ► It would be way nicer if everyone was just like me.

00:23:16 ◼   ► So, you're not finding yourself wanting to use the 9.7 inch to like read Twitter with

00:23:24 ◼   ► and stuff, like is that just not more comfortable for you?

00:23:26 ◼   ► No, because I'm either sitting down or, you know, being on the couch or in bed with the

00:23:34 ◼   ► big iPad Pro, or I'm using the iPhone, the 6x Plus.

00:23:40 ◼   ► And I think the small iPad, it's a really nice device and every time I pick it up I'm

00:23:45 ◼   ► "okay yeah it's a small iPad and it's lighter" but it's just you know I'm so used to proper multitasking on the 12.9 and I'm using it all the time

00:23:56 ◼   ► and then I have the iPhone so I have this other iPad and I'm like "it's nice but do I really need it?"

00:24:03 ◼   ► I mean I needed it for a month when I needed to test the iOS 10 beta but what about now? I got the beta on my iPad Pro

00:24:10 ◼   ► more iPad stuff for the big iPad Pro than the small one in iOS 10. So do I really need

00:24:17 ◼   ► it? I don't know. That's the situation that I'm currently in.

00:24:21 ◼   ► Steven, are you continuing to use a keyboard with the 9.7 inch?

00:24:27 ◼   ► I am. I'm using the smart keyboard, which is not as good as the 12.9, but it is perfectly

00:24:33 ◼   ► usable. I have found, like the other day, like the iSight article I published last week,

00:24:40 ◼   ► wrote on the iPad and I used a, you know, the aluminum magic keyboard for that. So

00:24:46 ◼   ► longer form stuff I will grab the magic keyboard. It just is a little bit more

00:24:51 ◼   ► comfortable but the smart keyboard is perfectly usable. It has all the

00:24:55 ◼   ► benefits of the big smart keyboard. Myke you've talked a lot about this that you

00:24:59 ◼   ► just always have a keyboard with your iPad you don't have to like go get it or

00:25:03 ◼   ► forget that it's charged or like you left it in your other bag.

00:25:06 ◼   ► It's just because it's always literally attached to it you always have it.

00:25:09 ◼   ► And that's still really great on the little one. It's what I have on there. I don't have a regular smart cover for it. The keyboard is always attached.

00:25:16 ◼   ► And I do like the software keyboard better on the 12.9 inch. I'm not sure I'm in the majority of that. I think a lot of people don't like it. But I really do like it on the bigger one.

00:25:28 ◼   ► And so it's a little bit of an adjustment there.

00:25:33 ◼   ► But yeah, using the keyboard and doing the writing thing and going from there.

00:25:40 ◼   ► So on upgrade this week, we spoke about the Razer mechanical keyboard because Jason got

00:25:45 ◼   ► one and effectively no bueno is the answer.

00:25:51 ◼   ► Yeah, I listened to that yesterday.

00:25:54 ◼   ► And if I have a mic I texted to you, I was using my iPad Pro in the car.

00:25:59 ◼   ► I had to listen to a podcast for a series of coincidences.

00:26:04 ◼   ► But yeah, it seems like that thing's not really all that great.

00:26:09 ◼   ► And yeah, it's fine.

00:26:10 ◼   ► Bluetooth is really good on iOS these days.

00:26:14 ◼   ► And I have a Magic Keyboard that is dedicated to the iPad, and so it's just in my drawer

00:26:20 ◼   ► on my desk.

00:26:21 ◼   ► That's that way I'm not having like pair between the computer and the iPad and dealing with that but um it's nice to have options

00:26:26 ◼   ► It just seems that the weather razor fails is that when you put the iPad pro in the case and?

00:26:34 ◼   ► Have the keyboard with it. It's heavier than a MacBook Pro

00:26:37 ◼   ► And I know what they're trying to do I appreciate what they're trying to do, but I think

00:26:45 ◼   ► That is not good like that's that's not a good end result is not a device which is as heavier than a laptop

00:26:53 ◼   ► I think you're kind of defeating the object. Oh

00:26:56 ◼   ► Yeah, I would still love to see more happen in the keyboard space for the iPad

00:27:01 ◼   ► I'm happy that you've finally settled on a

00:27:04 ◼   ► iPad for you even though I think that you're both making the wrong decision

00:27:10 ◼   ► But looks like the law of averages is going against me on this one

00:27:14 ◼   ► Yeah, and I think that um I think that overall the 9.7 inch iPad Pro is probably like the default

00:27:21 ◼   ► iPad for a lot of people that the big one is really useful for people like like you guys who are doing a

00:27:28 ◼   ► substantial amount of your work on it

00:27:31 ◼   ► But for people like me who are only doing some of their work on it or maybe even just using it for like media stuff

00:27:37 ◼   ► that size like there's a reason Apple started with that size and

00:27:41 ◼   ► I think that

00:27:43 ◼   ► if Apple had released the 9.7 and the 12.9 to iPad Pro at the same time, I'm not

00:27:50 ◼   ► sure I would have ever tried the 12.9. I don't know, I mean it's, you can't, it's

00:27:56 ◼   ► hard to say in hindsight, but the 12.9 iPad Pro came out first. I think made, you

00:28:02 ◼   ► know, put a bunch of people in a situation where they were willing to

00:28:05 ◼   ► experiment with it. I know Marco Arment went through this as well. He used the 12.9, didn't like it, but

00:28:09 ◼   ► really likes the 9.7. So I think there's that weird cycle of the iPad that we

00:28:15 ◼   ► talked about played in favor of the 12.9 for a lot of people but it'll be

00:28:20 ◼   ► interesting to see moving forward how that how that pans out. I definitely see

00:28:24 ◼   ► 12.9 inch iPads. I saw one just the other day at a coffee shop someone was

00:28:28 ◼   ► using one but I don't know overall if it's ever going to become like the most

00:28:35 ◼   ► popular version. I think that 9.7 is a really good size, it's a really good iPad, and I

00:28:42 ◼   ► think that people, it's good to have options, but I think people will kind of stay in that

00:28:47 ◼   ► size range more. Last week we were talking about Apple and

00:28:55 ◼   ► data in iOS 10, and there was another part of this puzzle that we didn't get to, which

00:29:01 ◼   ► is photo data and how Apple is dealing with photos in iOS 10.

00:29:06 ◼   ► So to kind of put this in a little bit of context here,

00:29:13 ◼   ► the idea of looking at faces, understanding

00:29:17 ◼   ► what face looks like, looking at a horse, looking at a mountain,

00:29:20 ◼   ► knowing what horses and mountains look like,

00:29:22 ◼   ► this stuff has to come from somewhere.

00:29:24 ◼   ► Apple has to train a system that can get better

00:29:28 ◼   ► and can detect this stuff.

00:29:30 ◼   ► Now, with where we are right now,

00:29:34 ◼   ► if we look at Google, for example,

00:29:36 ◼   ► Google has incredible amounts of data about photos

00:29:41 ◼   ► because they own and run Google Image Search.

00:29:44 ◼   ► And I'm sure that over the years

00:29:46 ◼   ► as they've been running Google Images

00:29:48 ◼   ► and refining their searches and building up metadata,

00:29:51 ◼   ► they are sitting on a bank of incredible data

00:29:54 ◼   ► of stuff that looks like something, right?

00:29:57 ◼   ► They know it's their data, right?

00:29:59 ◼   ► And also I'm sure, I mean,

00:30:01 ◼   ► and I don't know the full privacy stuff in this,

00:30:04 ◼   ► but when you upload your photos to Google Photos,

00:30:07 ◼   ► it's helping to further train that system.

00:30:11 ◼   ► I don't believe that it's tagging Myke Hurley

00:30:14 ◼   ► has a photo of Steven Hackett

00:30:16 ◼   ► and they have piles of cash in front of them

00:30:18 ◼   ► and that's being saved on Google.

00:30:20 ◼   ► - Do you?

00:30:21 ◼   ► - If it was, I wouldn't want people

00:30:23 ◼   ► to see that picture, right?

00:30:24 ◼   ► That's being uploaded to a server somewhere.

00:30:28 ◼   ► I don't think they're doing that,

00:30:29 ◼   ► but I think they are understanding like,

00:30:31 ◼   ► two guys wear glasses, cash table.

00:30:35 ◼   ► They're like, understand that,

00:30:36 ◼   ► and that photo helps to further categorize that.

00:30:40 ◼   ► I assume that they're like picking out key elements

00:30:42 ◼   ► so they can try and draw what that thing looks like.

00:30:45 ◼   ► I mean, I'm sure there's lots of scientific

00:30:47 ◼   ► and smart ways to explain this,

00:30:49 ◼   ► but that's the way that my brain thinks

00:30:51 ◼   ► of this stuff through.

00:30:52 ◼   ► Now, Apple has no starting position of their own, right?

00:30:57 ◼   ► There is no Apple image search,

00:31:00 ◼   ► so they have no data that already exists

00:31:04 ◼   ► that can help them with this.

00:31:06 ◼   ► And then furthermore,

00:31:08 ◼   ► based on what Apple is saying that they are doing,

00:31:12 ◼   ► I can't imagine that they are doing that analysis on images

00:31:16 ◼   ► and then sending that somewhere where it's saved.

00:31:19 ◼   ► Like I don't imagine that they're looking at mine

00:31:22 ◼   ► and looking at Federico's and looking at Steven's photos,

00:31:24 ◼   ► working out what's there and then uploading that data.

00:31:27 ◼   ► Am I right in thinking that Federico? I feel like it's important to establish this.

00:31:30 ◼   ► Yeah, I feel like that's obvious. That's a given, especially when you consider what Apple

00:31:35 ◼   ► has said about differential privacy and what they're doing with on-device analysis of pictures.

00:31:41 ◼   ► And when you consider the opposite of what Google is doing, not only do they run Google

00:31:47 ◼   ► image search, but they can also analyze what people prioritize. So when you use Google

00:31:52 ◼   ► image search indirectly or maybe you don't know but you're making a direct contribution

00:31:59 ◼   ► to training the algorithm. So if you search for pineapple and you click on the pictures

00:32:05 ◼   ► that according to your opinion best represent a pineapple, you're training the Google algorithm,

00:32:10 ◼   ► you know the intelligence, to be able to say okay X number of users have said that this

00:32:16 ◼   ► is a correct picture of a pineapple, therefore we should train our algorithm to decode more

00:32:21 ◼   ► pineapple images like this. And not only that, but even when you use CAPTCHAs on Google to

00:32:26 ◼   ► authenticate yourself and say "I'm not a robot" and they ask you with the modern CAPTCHAs to

00:32:31 ◼   ► start... For example, two days ago I got a Google CAPTCHA saying "Choose three pictures

00:32:37 ◼   ► of construction equipment" and there were like a bunch of different types of vehicles

00:32:44 ◼   ► and sure there were a few construction ones and I picked them and I can only imagine Google

00:32:49 ◼   ► is using this data, so on the surface I'm trying to say "I'm not a robot, please choose me, because

00:32:55 ◼   ► see I can pick pictures of construction equipment", but under the hood, in fact, I'm training the

00:33:00 ◼   ► Google algorithm to better understand what is going on. And I believe that's why Google

00:33:05 ◼   ► photo search is so accurate and so amazing. On the other hand, Apple is not doing any of this,

00:33:10 ◼   ► they don't have Apple image search, they maybe have stuff like Siri when you ask for pictures

00:33:16 ◼   ► of horses and they show you snippets from Bing and maybe they could look at what users

00:33:21 ◼   ► tap in Siri, but I don't think they are.

00:33:25 ◼   ► And so it begs the question, where is this data coming from in iOS 10?

00:33:29 ◼   ► How do you know what's a tree?

00:33:32 ◼   ► What's a boat?

00:33:34 ◼   ► What's a beach?

00:33:35 ◼   ► What's a pizza, for example?

00:33:37 ◼   ► Where does this data come from?

00:33:40 ◼   ► And we can only infer that Apple is doing some kind of partnerships, some kind of collaboration

00:33:47 ◼   ► with other data sets that don't come from users.

00:33:51 ◼   ► So let's establish that there must be a data set that comes from somewhere.

00:33:56 ◼   ► And let's establish that if you leave the users aside, that leaves either employees

00:34:01 ◼   ► of Apple who collaborate by sort of crowdsourcing their own pictures, or it comes from third-party

00:34:08 ◼   ► companies.

00:34:09 ◼   ► I'm not trying to be a genius here, it's the only options left.

00:34:12 ◼   ► So if we can infer...

00:34:14 ◼   ► Or they have actually created a computer that can look at images and, you know, it's a brain.

00:34:19 ◼   ► Then again, can you create a brain, Myke?

00:34:22 ◼   ► No.

00:34:22 ◼   ► Really?

00:34:23 ◼   ► I mean, but like, that's the only other option is they have a machine that can do it.

00:34:26 ◼   ► But that doesn't... I mean, we will just naturally assume that they have not done that.

00:34:30 ◼   ► Because I think even Apple, as secret as they are, would probably want to tell the world

00:34:34 ◼   ► that they've created a computer that can think all by its own.

00:34:37 ◼   ► We have created a robot that can go out in the real world and order pizzas and ride horses.

00:34:43 ◼   ► That leaves the two simplest explanations, which would be Apple has a set of internal images

00:34:49 ◼   ► or Apple has bought images from someone else.

00:34:52 ◼   ► And I believe it's two options that make sense, right?

00:34:56 ◼   ► It's a company that has the money to go out for any kind of image provider and say,

00:35:02 ◼   ► look, we want to look at like 3 billion images,

00:35:06 ◼   ► and we want to be able to look at the tags

00:35:09 ◼   ► that you use to describe those images.

00:35:10 ◼   ► And we want to be able to buy this database

00:35:13 ◼   ► and use it and train our algorithm for now,

00:35:16 ◼   ► because we have no knowledge of what a horse is.

00:35:18 ◼   ► As sad as that sounds,

00:35:20 ◼   ► you know, how can you not know what a horse is?

00:35:22 ◼   ► Technology is a bit different than emotions in that sense.

00:35:25 ◼   ► So you must be looking at database and tags and image data

00:35:29 ◼   ► to understand what is going on.

00:35:31 ◼   ► And that also explains why in photos in iOS 10, there's a certain limitation of the categories of content that you can look for.

00:35:40 ◼   ► I saw someone had... I have no idea how they did it, but there's like 4,000 entries,

00:35:46 ◼   ► like possible combinations of keywords that you can put in the search field and return images from.

00:35:52 ◼   ► And, you know, it seems to me when you consider the two simplest explanations,

00:35:58 ◼   ► or the Occam's razor, if you look it up on Google, you will see what it means.

00:36:03 ◼   ► If you consider the simplest explanation of what is going on,

00:36:07 ◼   ► if you consider Apple's money, and if you look at the implementation in iOS 10,

00:36:11 ◼   ► that's the only two conclusions I can reach.

00:36:15 ◼   ► There must be some people inside Apple providing their own photos,

00:36:18 ◼   ► and Apple must be buying photos from someone else who is not the user base.

00:36:23 ◼   ► Makes sense? I wonder how well it will work for real life situations of people who are not...

00:36:31 ◼   ► I don't run a stock image database, I just go out in the world and take pictures of pastimes and beaches, but we'll see.

00:36:40 ◼   ► I mean, for now, it works okay, it works alright, it's not as amazing or jaw-dropping as Google search,

00:36:47 ◼   ► Google Photos I mean, and it's not flexible of course, you cannot search for emoji for example.

00:36:53 ◼   ► And I wonder how well the privacy conscious approach of Apple with Sync and not wanting to

00:37:02 ◼   ► store user data in the cloud will work over time. For example, let's say that I have my iPhone 6s,

00:37:10 ◼   ► it's doing a bunch of data analysis with the computer vision, whatever is the name,

00:37:14 ◼   ► and they're looking at faces, they're looking at my stories inside of my photos,

00:37:20 ◼   ► so they know that there's a few restaurants, a few pictures of the sea,

00:37:25 ◼   ► but what happens when I sell my iPhone and I get a new one?

00:37:28 ◼   ► Do they sync with iCloud?

00:37:30 ◼   ► Right now, Apple is saying the current beta virus 10 doesn't sync your face data across devices,

00:37:36 ◼   ► so maybe that sounds like face sync will come eventually.

00:37:39 ◼   ► And my understanding is, as far as the scene recognition goes, or the object recognition goes,

00:37:47 ◼   ► when you buy a new iPhone, you will start from zero, and as soon as you charge your iPhone overnight, leave it plugged and connected to WiFi,

00:37:56 ◼   ► it'll do its own processing and you will end up recreating the same scenes and the same object recognition,

00:38:03 ◼   ► but you will start from zero again,

00:38:05 ◼   ► because Apple is not storing any of this metadata about you

00:38:09 ◼   ► in your iCloud account.

00:38:11 ◼   ► - What do you reckon the success rate of that re-scanning is?

00:38:15 ◼   ► Reckon it's 100%?

00:38:17 ◼   ► Because this is what I'm thinking, right?

00:38:18 ◼   ► Like I imagine I knew I could search for X image,

00:38:21 ◼   ► I got a new phone and I can't find it anymore.

00:38:24 ◼   ► I can't be 100%, right?

00:38:26 ◼   ► I mean, maybe it's so good,

00:38:28 ◼   ► the likelihood of you ever hitting that problem

00:38:32 ◼   ► is so slim, right?

00:38:33 ◼   ► But if it's analyzing every image every single time,

00:38:39 ◼   ► I wonder if it would get every single thing in it correct

00:38:42 ◼   ► every single time, if you keep doing it device to device.

00:38:45 ◼   ► I do want to read very quickly, underscore in the chatroom,

00:38:48 ◼   ► put a quote in from Craig Federighi from the talk show Live.

00:38:52 ◼   ► So this was about kind of where the data comes from.

00:38:55 ◼   ► And he said, the other thing is there's this idea that,

00:38:57 ◼   ► well, if you don't have the data, how would you ever learn?

00:39:00 ◼   ► Well, turns out, if you want to get pictures of mountains, you don't need to get it out of people's personal photo libraries.

00:39:06 ◼   ► Like, we found out that we could find some pictures of some mountains.

00:39:10 ◼   ► Yeah, I'm sure you did.

00:39:12 ◼   ► I mean, that again follows the theory that if you leave the users out of the equation, it leaves either Apple people or other companies.

00:39:24 ◼   ► And I mean, not necessarily you need to go to something like Shutterstock or get images

00:39:32 ◼   ► and say "look, we have a lot of money, we want to buy all of your pictures".

00:39:37 ◼   ► You can go to any kind of public library database and look at public photos, public domain stuff.

00:39:45 ◼   ► I'm sure Apple has internal databases of pictures they've used over the years for stuff like

00:39:50 ◼   ► iPhoto demos or iPhoto marketing materials, you know, those kind of pictures.

00:39:55 ◼   ► In fact, funny story, I once got an email from someone who knew a family who had

00:40:02 ◼   ► this sort of contract with Apple to provide pictures of their kids and their

00:40:07 ◼   ► dog for the iPhoto team and I was very sad when this person emailed me a few

00:40:13 ◼   ► weeks ago to tell me that the dog passed away but it's definitely like a real

00:40:17 ◼   ► thing to provide photos to Apple of your own vacations. It's basically like you

00:40:21 ◼   ► don't want to see an actor but you're shooting pictures and taking videos for

00:40:26 ◼   ► Apple to provide them with this data to use on the website, in keynotes, you know

00:40:31 ◼   ► stuff like that. So Apple has its own set of images either from this sort of

00:40:36 ◼   ► marketing purposes or from employees and then they can go out to other companies

00:40:39 ◼   ► public domain organizations and look at that data and sure you don't

00:40:46 ◼   ► need to look at private pictures from Myke and it's piles of cash, you can look at piles

00:40:52 ◼   ► of cash from other people, I guess.

00:40:54 ◼   ► Like you?

00:40:55 ◼   ► Not really, but in theory, yes.

00:40:59 ◼   ► How does Apple make their algorithm better, and how does my phone get that data?

00:41:10 ◼   ► Exactly, so this is a discussion we were having, me and you and I think Gray at WWDC, so we were talking

00:41:17 ◼   ► what if a new object is created in the world, a human-made object and Apple doesn't have this information?

00:41:26 ◼   ► A good way to, we were going back and forward on this quickly, a good way to think of this is

00:41:31 ◼   ► imagine the PlayStation 5, right? Like we're not talking about the creation of a new plant

00:41:37 ◼   ► but something that will be iconic immediately and people will know what it looks like.

00:41:43 ◼   ► Like I say you take a picture of the one that you just bought and you want to find it.

00:41:47 ◼   ► So I just wanted to put that because this is something when we were talking about this

00:41:50 ◼   ► meaning new we went back and forth on this like what does that look like?

00:41:53 ◼   ► But imagine a new product that is for sale, right? As a new thing created by man.

00:42:01 ◼   ► Yes, so Google of course has an advantage because they can look at data from websites

00:42:08 ◼   ► indexed in Google search, provide those image results in Google image search, and as soon

00:42:14 ◼   ► as people click on those image results, say from the PlayStation 5, they can know "ok,

00:42:19 ◼   ► this is a product called PlayStation 5" and in Google Photos you should be able to search

00:42:23 ◼   ► for PlayStation 5 and your picture comes up.

00:42:26 ◼   ► Apple has no web engine to look at data from websites and say,

00:42:33 ◼   ► "Okay, there's pictures of this new product, now let's bring it back into photos."

00:42:38 ◼   ► It's different, right?

00:42:40 ◼   ► And to do this kind of quick update to the algorithm,

00:42:46 ◼   ► it would require Apple to have these databases be constantly updated with new information.

00:42:51 ◼   ► And again, it's not impossible because if you go to, you know, when there's any public event,

00:42:56 ◼   ► you're gonna find photos on Getty Images really quickly after the event, because they have

00:43:02 ◼   ► photographers going to these events and taking pictures. And I assume this also works for

00:43:08 ◼   ► marketing materials. I mean, you could probably have a deal with companies like BusinessWire,

00:43:14 ◼   ► companies that publish press releases that often include text and photos of new product and new

00:43:23 ◼   ► new product announcements, you could probably make a deal with those companies and say,

00:43:27 ◼   ► "Okay, every time a new company announces a new product, we want access to that text

00:43:31 ◼   ► and that picture in a database-like object, and we want to analyse that."

00:43:35 ◼   ► It's not impossible, especially when you have a lot of money.

00:43:38 ◼   ► When you have a lot of money, you can buy a lot of stuff.

00:43:40 ◼   ► This seems functionally more complex and expensive.

00:43:44 ◼   ► Yes, it's a very convoluted way to approach image analysis, I think.

00:43:50 ◼   ► But it also, on the other hand, it's a very respectful way maybe to say, look, we want

00:43:57 ◼   ► to give you the utility of searching for your photos, but we don't want to look at your

00:44:02 ◼   ► photos.

00:44:03 ◼   ► And I feel like a lot of people, including me from a certain perspective, they're comfortable

00:44:07 ◼   ► knowing that Apple generally cares about not looking at your stuff individually to improve

00:44:14 ◼   ► an algorithm that benefits everyone.

00:44:16 ◼   ► I really think it's just a personal opinion thing because I mean I don't think that there's

00:44:23 ◼   ► a Google engineer looking at my pictures.

00:44:25 ◼   ► It's just a different computer, it's just somewhere else.

00:44:28 ◼   ► You're playing on principle here, right?

00:44:31 ◼   ► And everybody is entitled to feel the way that they want to feel and it's really nice

00:44:36 ◼   ► that Apple is providing a choice to the people that don't ever want that data to leave their

00:44:42 ◼   ► devices.

00:44:43 ◼   ► Like it's definitely good for that.

00:44:45 ◼   ► I do feel though that you're making a trade-off

00:44:48 ◼   ► and some of the trade-offs will come in the functionality.

00:44:51 ◼   ► 'Cause I just personally cannot conceive of a world

00:44:56 ◼   ► where Apple stuff could ever be as good as Google's.

00:44:59 ◼   ► I'm not saying it though it even needs to be.

00:45:01 ◼   ► There is a level of good enough.

00:45:04 ◼   ► I don't know what that level is.

00:45:06 ◼   ► But there is a level of good enough.

00:45:11 ◼   ► My brief experiences with photos so far,

00:45:16 ◼   ► it's not good enough.

00:45:18 ◼   ► So one of the places that I've found

00:45:21 ◼   ► some serious issues with is faces.

00:45:24 ◼   ► The face recognition stuff, it's not very good right now.

00:45:29 ◼   ► So I'll give you an example

00:45:31 ◼   ► of why I think it's not very good.

00:45:33 ◼   ► It picked out pictures of Adina

00:45:36 ◼   ► and put them into multiple different people.

00:45:39 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:45:40 ◼   ► The one that I found the most ridiculous

00:45:42 ◼   ► was eyes open, eyes closed.

00:45:44 ◼   ► If a picture of Idina of her eyes closed,

00:45:47 ◼   ► like say we were out in the sun,

00:45:48 ◼   ► and I took a picture of her and she was like squinting,

00:45:51 ◼   ► it couldn't recognize that they were the same person.

00:45:53 ◼   ► And that folder was just about 12 pictures

00:45:56 ◼   ► of her with her eyes closed.

00:45:58 ◼   ► It just couldn't match that they were the same people.

00:46:01 ◼   ► And that, I'm sure that the reason is like,

00:46:05 ◼   ► because the way that facial recognition works

00:46:07 ◼   ► is to pick out those key elements on a face,

00:46:10 ◼   ► which is like nose, eyes, and mouth and stuff.

00:46:14 ◼   ► But it really feels like an advanced

00:46:16 ◼   ► facial recognition engine should be able to detect

00:46:20 ◼   ► between eyes open, eyes closed.

00:46:23 ◼   ► And I just think-- - From the same person.

00:46:26 ◼   ► - From the same person.

00:46:27 ◼   ► And I just think that that is not,

00:46:30 ◼   ► that is not sufficient, right?

00:46:32 ◼   ► I just, so I'm opening, I'm opening Google right now,

00:46:36 ◼   ► and I can only see one entry for Adina.

00:46:41 ◼   ► So it either means there are many, many, many photos of her

00:46:45 ◼   ► that it's not picking out and it's just not showing me them

00:46:48 ◼   ► or it's getting them right. - They haven't seen yet.

00:46:51 ◼   ► - No, all my photos are in Google Photos.

00:46:53 ◼   ► - Oh, okay. - Right, okay.

00:46:54 ◼   ► And I've just found one of the images with her eyes closed

00:46:58 ◼   ► that I remember Apple was picking out

00:46:59 ◼   ► 'cause I remember when it was from.

00:47:01 ◼   ► And it's in the field for who Adina is.

00:47:05 ◼   ► So it is at least doing that.

00:47:08 ◼   ► And the other thing,

00:47:08 ◼   ► I'm looking at when I was looking at my photo library

00:47:10 ◼   ► on my iPad, there are so many entries for the same person.

00:47:15 ◼   ► And the way that you merge them is infuriating.

00:47:20 ◼   ► You have to go in every time.

00:47:22 ◼   ► So I will name Federico.

00:47:24 ◼   ► It pulls up from my contacts.

00:47:26 ◼   ► I like that.

00:47:26 ◼   ► It's like, great, you know that person is Federico.

00:47:28 ◼   ► I go to the next one.

00:47:29 ◼   ► I have to type it again.

00:47:30 ◼   ► Type in Federico, click it.

00:47:31 ◼   ► It's like, would you like to merge?

00:47:32 ◼   ► Okay, merge.

00:47:33 ◼   ► Now go to number three, Federico.

00:47:36 ◼   ► I'm not gonna do that.

00:47:37 ◼   ► And do you know why I'm really not gonna do it?

00:47:38 ◼   ► Because I have to do that on every device that I own.

00:47:41 ◼   ► - Yeah. - Because they don't sync yet.

00:47:43 ◼   ► That's the problem. - That is unacceptable.

00:47:45 ◼   ► Wi-Fi sync, just do Wi-Fi sync or something.

00:47:48 ◼   ► I know that I'm an edge case

00:47:52 ◼   ► 'cause I have three or four iOS devices,

00:47:56 ◼   ► but then I've also got my Mac.

00:47:58 ◼   ► So let's say many people will have three or two.

00:48:02 ◼   ► you don't want to go and do that on every single device.

00:48:04 ◼   ► And then is it useful then like,

00:48:06 ◼   ► because I'm now not gonna ever use the faces in iCloud

00:48:11 ◼   ► because it's not going to be complete.

00:48:14 ◼   ► The information isn't going to be complete. I just, I'm not happy with it.

00:48:19 ◼   ► And also like the places view, um,

00:48:22 ◼   ► all it has for me so far and I've had it chewing on my photo database for,

00:48:26 ◼   ► you know, on, on my iPad air 2 since the first beta. And I put, um,

00:48:31 ◼   ► I put it on my iPad Pro, the 12.9, a couple of days ago

00:48:35 ◼   ► when the third beta came out.

00:48:37 ◼   ► So it's had enough time to look at my memories, as it were,

00:48:42 ◼   ► but all it has, oh, I just opened my iPad,

00:48:45 ◼   ► and because I hadn't done it on this iPad,

00:48:47 ◼   ► it now won't show me.

00:48:49 ◼   ► But I looked, 'cause I have to rebuild the database again.

00:48:52 ◼   ► But yesterday, I looked at it, and all it had

00:48:54 ◼   ► was my one trip to New York last year.

00:48:58 ◼   ► yeah yeah mine's been on my pad since beta 2 and it's there's only a couple of

00:49:04 ◼   ► memories built there and compared to Google Photos does I just opened Google

00:49:08 ◼   ► Photos as well and it's showing me stuff from like two three four five and six

00:49:13 ◼   ► years ago today is showing me a trip it's showing me all the stuff they do so

00:49:17 ◼   ► much better and it's really it's really night day and I I see what you say Myke

00:49:23 ◼   ► about there may be a good enough because I think the Google Photos is sort of a

00:49:28 ◼   ► nerdy product. I don't know how mainstream it is. I know it's sort of

00:49:31 ◼   ► baked into Android so maybe a lot of people are using it but it doesn't seem

00:49:35 ◼   ► like it is as well known, at least to our community, as photos is of course and it's

00:49:42 ◼   ► kind of a shame because Google Photos is a really good job. I backup Google Photos

00:49:46 ◼   ► A) for a backup but B) really for this memory stuff because it's so good.

00:49:51 ◼   ► I do it for search stuff only. I have a bunch of duplicates in there because I set it up kind of wonky.

00:49:56 ◼   ► like if I look at it on my phone, it's pulling from a database but also trying to use my phone

00:50:01 ◼   ► But I don't think that but I purely use it for the memory stuff because it's nice

00:50:06 ◼   ► And for searching of images and it does a great job of that

00:50:09 ◼   ► But like I just looked at my iPad then and there were two different memory albums for my one trip to New York

00:50:16 ◼   ► one of them that was in London and one of them that was in Romania and

00:50:20 ◼   ► And when I look at Google Photos, I have endless lists of every single time I've ever left the country,

00:50:26 ◼   ► ever left from home. Like I've got stuff going back to 2011 in here. And they're like just the

00:50:32 ◼   ► ones that I've decided to save because what Google does, which I like, is they're like,

00:50:36 ◼   ► "Hey, we've recognized that this might be a thing that you did. Would you like to save this?"

00:50:41 ◼   ► So it does that, right? But they're the ones that I've chosen to save. But I feel like the Apple

00:50:47 ◼   ► memory stuff is not picking up like any of my WWDC trips that I take every single year.

00:50:54 ◼   ► And I don't know if like, am I still multiple weeks away from completing the search of my

00:51:00 ◼   ► images?

00:51:01 ◼   ► So I think I'm doing a lot better than you guys.

00:51:06 ◼   ► So one thing that might be about that is I have optimized storage on my devices.

00:51:11 ◼   ► Me too.

00:51:12 ◼   ► Me too.

00:51:13 ◼   ► Okay.

00:51:14 ◼   ► But that just made me think, what happens to the images that are not downloaded?

00:51:16 ◼   ► Are they checked?

00:51:18 ◼   ► They have said that they use the thumbnail data.

00:51:20 ◼   ► That that's enough. I think that was in a

00:51:22 ◼   ► maybe the state of the union.

00:51:24 ◼   ► Someone probably probably knows.

00:51:26 ◼   ► But I believe they've said that the thumbnail

00:51:28 ◼   ► is enough data for them to

00:51:30 ◼   ► do their process.

00:51:32 ◼   ► So I'm looking at my memories right now.

00:51:34 ◼   ► And iOS created the first

00:51:36 ◼   ► so I put beta 1 on my phone

00:51:38 ◼   ► as soon as it came out.

00:51:40 ◼   ► As soon as I was back in Italy actually.

00:51:42 ◼   ► So I was back in Italy on June 19th

00:51:44 ◼   ► 19th and the first set of memories was on June 20, three memories.

00:51:50 ◼   ► And I'm scrolling through and basically iOS I would say created four to five memories

00:51:57 ◼   ► each week.

00:51:58 ◼   ► So I got the latest one today, actually two new memories today, one yesterday, another

00:52:06 ◼   ► earlier in the week.

00:52:08 ◼   ► So I would say yeah, about four or five new memories every week.

00:52:11 ◼   ► And they're kind of nice, you know?

00:52:13 ◼   ► does a good job at creating memories for locations, for stuff like weekends.

00:52:18 ◼   ► I see what it's doing and I don't like this implementation. It's just giving me random

00:52:24 ◼   ► things on different days, right?

00:52:26 ◼   ► Yes.

00:52:27 ◼   ► See, I don't think that makes sense.

00:52:29 ◼   ► So what I know is there's going to be some fixed type of memories. So there's an on-this-day

00:52:36 ◼   ► one that is often created but not every day.

00:52:40 ◼   ► There's also a birthday memory that's all about you that will be placed in the memories view on your birthday.

00:52:49 ◼   ► I have a to-do to check on my birthday if it comes up.

00:52:52 ◼   ► And yeah, that I think are the two regular ones.

00:52:58 ◼   ► Alright, so I'm clicking through this now and I think that basically my issue now is not the data, it's the UI.

00:53:05 ◼   ► Because if I click into a memory, one of the memories it's given me, I get related memories

00:53:11 ◼   ► that I haven't seen before.

00:53:13 ◼   ► But why is it...

00:53:14 ◼   ► I don't understand, why do I only get access to like one of them every day if the device

00:53:20 ◼   ► has done them?

00:53:21 ◼   ► So maybe the memories that you see in the main screen are like highlights from your

00:53:26 ◼   ► memories.

00:53:27 ◼   ► But it's like picking out completely random things.

00:53:29 ◼   ► It's not showing me like this time last year.

00:53:32 ◼   ► Like it's showing me from Saturday stuff that happened in like November 2015.

00:53:41 ◼   ► I don't know how it works.

00:53:43 ◼   ► I will try to confirm details.

00:53:45 ◼   ► So I'm now going to change my complaint to a UI complaint.

00:53:48 ◼   ► Because I'm like I can see oh here's my March 2016 trip to Texas.

00:53:52 ◼   ► But to get that I had to click into two different memories and go to related.

00:53:56 ◼   ► If you're doing this why can't I just see it all?

00:54:00 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:54:01 ◼   ► - I mean, Google puts it all in line.

00:54:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, so it's just a list chronologically

00:54:05 ◼   ► of all the memories that I have.

00:54:07 ◼   ► I do like the places view though,

00:54:09 ◼   ► I will say that at least.

00:54:09 ◼   ► That's one good thing that I have to say.

00:54:11 ◼   ► I'm happy the places view is there.

00:54:13 ◼   ► Seeing my photos on a map tends to be a good thing

00:54:15 ◼   ► that I like.

00:54:16 ◼   ► - Yeah, there's a lot of information that gets hidden

00:54:20 ◼   ► by the photos app and you need to click through

00:54:23 ◼   ► into the related stuff.

00:54:25 ◼   ► I think I'm a fan of photos.

00:54:30 ◼   ► So my idea is, we just talked about on remaster, we talked about Pokemon Go and you made a point of

00:54:38 ◼   ► it's not a really advanced Pokemon game in the sense that you cannot do a lot of the more complex Pokemon stuff with evolutions and customization

00:54:50 ◼   ► but it's good enough for a lot of people to get into.

00:54:53 ◼   ► And I think you can draw a comparison with what Apple is doing with photos.

00:54:57 ◼   ► It's not as advanced as what Google Photos can do.

00:55:01 ◼   ► Maybe it's good enough for a lot of people to get started on it, to not get the impression

00:55:07 ◼   ► that Apple is being creepy, just being useful in a very small dosage.

00:55:14 ◼   ► Maybe Apple is going for it.

00:55:16 ◼   ► Yeah, I think there's still some work that needs to be done.

00:55:22 ◼   ► what I thought about the places stuff isn't as bad as I thought, right? Like there is

00:55:26 ◼   ► stuff that's happening, it's just not being shown to me. But the things like with not

00:55:30 ◼   ► being able to sync this stuff from device to device, I think makes it worse, especially

00:55:35 ◼   ► with the faces stuff. You know, for me, I just can't, I can't help but compare this

00:55:40 ◼   ► to Google Photos, because I find that implementation to work really well. I know that it's, it's

00:55:50 ◼   ► It's like effectively a different product because of the way that the data is being

00:55:54 ◼   ► found.

00:55:55 ◼   ► They're so fundamentally different, but unfortunately they position themselves, Apple has positioned

00:56:02 ◼   ► iCloud photos to be like Google Photos.

00:56:06 ◼   ► They've given you all the features.

00:56:08 ◼   ► So for me, I can't help but compare them because it's the same data that I have going in, but

00:56:14 ◼   ► it's completely different results coming out the other end.

00:56:19 ◼   ► Of course the interface can still be fixed by the final release.

00:56:23 ◼   ► I don't think it will change a lot because Beta 3 is still the same so it's kind of an

00:56:27 ◼   ► indication that it's staying as it is right now.

00:56:31 ◼   ► And I think it could be clarified, especially the need to tap through to see related memories.

00:56:39 ◼   ► It's basically just a vertical list of random memories.

00:56:42 ◼   ► There's no schedule, let's say, of memories.

00:56:49 ◼   ► It's basically meant to be like a daily or almost daily surprise.

00:56:54 ◼   ► You open photos and you see a new memory.

00:56:57 ◼   ► From a serendipity point of view I maybe come by the argument of being surprised every day

00:57:03 ◼   ► and seeing random memories show up because if it becomes fixed and more precise maybe

00:57:09 ◼   ► becomes boring, whereas maybe Apple wants to go for the surprise effect of taking this

00:57:14 ◼   ► random weekend from two years ago and bringing it back to you.

00:57:18 ◼   ► I can imagine the random person being "oh yeah, I forgot about their Saturday when I

00:57:21 ◼   ► got so drunk people took pictures of me on the ground".

00:57:24 ◼   ► But you know, not everyone gets drunk and gets pictures taken from other people and

00:57:30 ◼   ► maybe some better organisation could be needed.

00:57:33 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:57:35 ◼   ► You know what I'm saying, Myke?

00:57:36 ◼   ► Yeah, I completely agree.

00:57:38 ◼   ► I completely agree.

00:57:40 ◼   ► I'm interested to see, as I say, how it goes like you did.

00:57:44 ◼   ► The fact that, as you say Federico, the UI hasn't changed probably means the UI won't

00:57:48 ◼   ► fundamentally change.

00:57:51 ◼   ► And I wonder about how scalable this is.

00:57:55 ◼   ► Like, it just feels like Apple is throwing like a ton of money at this problem.

00:57:59 ◼   ► If what you believe, and I am inclined to believe your thinking on this is true, that

00:58:04 ◼   ► they're just buying photos, like, at what point does it just become...

00:58:09 ◼   ► more likely that Apple is buying photos or that they've created God. They're definitely

00:58:16 ◼   ► buying photos. But you know at some point there has to be some realism coming into play.

00:58:25 ◼   ► There are some subreddits where people think that Apple do that every day. But I just feel

00:58:36 ◼   ► like at a certain point you've put so much money into this. I wonder if it's really a

00:58:42 ◼   ► competitive advantage. Like is the privacy really working for you that well? I don't

00:58:48 ◼   ► know. I don't know. I mean that's that's kind of like that's always the big the big rock

00:58:54 ◼   ► with any of these services from Apple that it it works the way it does and is engineered

00:59:00 ◼   ► the way it is because of the privacy and like that that is a fence post that they were not

00:59:05 ◼   ► willing to move and I commend them for it even though I use Google services every day

00:59:09 ◼   ► for personal work stuff.

00:59:10 ◼   ► I'm happy someone's doing it.

00:59:12 ◼   ► Great.

00:59:13 ◼   ► I am too but I think what you're getting at is you have to balance that right and the

00:59:20 ◼   ► privacy stand as good as it is as much as I appreciate it does mean that something like

00:59:25 ◼   ► photos may not be as good as what Google can do because Google can look at your photos

00:59:29 ◼   ► directly and that is a personal choice you have to decide which service you want to use

00:59:34 ◼   ► or be like us and use both. But it is something to consider that in talking

00:59:40 ◼   ► about Apple services and in using them and comparing them to Google or anybody

00:59:44 ◼   ► else, that is always what it comes back to. Like iCloud mail is not as good as

00:59:48 ◼   ► Gmail because Gmail can do more things with your messages because they can see

00:59:52 ◼   ► more. And that's just a, you just have to understand that that's part of the

00:59:56 ◼   ► equation. And you know, would Apple be able to build a better photo app if they

01:00:02 ◼   ► could see my photos directly? Probably. But at the same time this is not who

01:00:08 ◼   ► they are and it's not you know what the company's about and it's just something

01:00:11 ◼   ► that we all have to kind of reconcile in choosing a service. The privacy angle and

01:00:17 ◼   ► you know how well does it work? How much data can it know about me and and what

01:00:22 ◼   ► do I gain from that? You know we spoke a really long time ago on the show about

01:00:25 ◼   ► we are willing to give Google data because of the benefit that we get out

01:00:30 ◼   ► of it and that is something that I think we continue, all three of us continue to

01:00:36 ◼   ► stand by and for some people that bar is just different places. Here's a simple

01:00:40 ◼   ► final question to ask. Would a smart service more like Google Photos help

01:00:47 ◼   ► Apple sell more iPhones or is a better photos app with some simple intelligence

01:00:53 ◼   ► or moderately advanced intelligence good enough to sell iPhones?

01:00:58 ◼   ► I don't know the answer to that question.

01:01:03 ◼   ► Me neither.

01:01:04 ◼   ► Because I feel like it could be both and that's not an answer.

01:01:09 ◼   ► I like those types of answers. Think about it.

01:01:13 ◼   ► Because the thing is, both Apple and Google believe they're doing the right thing to sell more devices.

01:01:19 ◼   ► That's why it's so difficult. Both of those companies believe that the route that they're taking will help them sell more.

01:01:25 ◼   ► I would disagree. I might even put a word in your mouth, but I don't think Google's primary objective through something like Google Photos is to sell more devices.

01:01:35 ◼   ► Google wants to organize the world's information, and them understanding what an object is when they see it is important to their overall mission.

01:01:44 ◼   ► Now Google Photos is a great service and because of its integration with Android it may help.

01:01:50 ◼   ► Sell more Android phones, I don't know.

01:01:52 ◼   ► Well let me refine that then. Each company thinks that they're doing the best thing to make the most compelling photo services.

01:01:58 ◼   ► There you go.

01:01:59 ◼   ► But for Apple that means more devices because the only way you can use Apple services is on their devices.

01:02:05 ◼   ► And Google just wants as many people as possible in the world to use Google Photos.

01:02:09 ◼   ► So they both think that they have the best thing to get the most people.

01:02:14 ◼   ► It sounds funny but he has a point. Chris Hannah in the chat room is saying Google

01:02:18 ◼   ► also helps Apple sell devices as well with Google Photos.

01:02:22 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't know if Apple likes that so much, right?

01:02:25 ◼   ► Well it's possible, so you know. It's interesting when you think about it because again we are

01:02:34 ◼   ► constantly looking for more features, more advanced functionalities,

01:02:41 ◼   ► but at some point there's a threshold where the market, which is not the real

01:02:46 ◼   ► FM staff, reacts to good enough in a way that maybe we cannot imagine. And maybe

01:02:54 ◼   ► that threshold is met by photos in iOS 10. I don't know.

01:02:59 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, there are going to be people who see this in iOS 10 and are going to be

01:03:05 ◼   ► completely blown away and smitten with it.

01:03:07 ◼   ► And that's great.

01:03:08 ◼   ► I mean, I like that it's built in.

01:03:11 ◼   ► I agree with Myke.

01:03:13 ◼   ► There's some issues with it still, but it's still a beta.

01:03:16 ◼   ► But there are going to be a lot of people who don't know about Google Photos.

01:03:19 ◼   ► Set all the privacy stuff aside.

01:03:21 ◼   ► They just haven't heard of Google Photos because it's just one service in Google's large portfolio.

01:03:26 ◼   ► this is going to make their experience better and if Apple ever gets the

01:03:30 ◼   ► syncing and metadata working or they're willing to cross that line it will make

01:03:34 ◼   ► it even better again and that's that's really I think where Apple services in

01:03:39 ◼   ► general sort of fall for me that something like Apple news a lot of

01:03:43 ◼   ► people are going to like it has a large user base podcast app has a large user

01:03:48 ◼   ► base but there there will be people and they happen to be the three of us and

01:03:52 ◼   ► people who listen to these shows who do want more or need more, honestly, and

01:03:57 ◼   ► that's where more professional, more robust services exist. But Apple is aiming

01:04:03 ◼   ► for the mainstream and just because it doesn't meet our needs doesn't mean

01:04:08 ◼   ► it's not a good product or a good service. Something like Apple News has lots of

01:04:11 ◼   ► users even though it's not for me. And I think that's an important thing to

01:04:15 ◼   ► remember. It's something that's easy to forget when we're just talking in the nerd circle

01:04:18 ◼   ► about this service versus that service, a lot of people just are going to use what's

01:04:23 ◼   ► built in. And so Apple's focus to make the built-in tools better is where they

01:04:28 ◼   ► should be spending their time, honestly. As much as I would like iCloud email to

01:04:33 ◼   ► have a bunch of server-side rules like Gmail does, most people just care about

01:04:38 ◼   ► the experience of using webmail and they want it to work well and they want it to sync

01:04:41 ◼   ► and iCloud mail does all that. And again they're aiming for the mainstream.

01:04:46 ◼   ► and a lot of, I will say, old Mac nerds in particular,

01:04:51 ◼   ► get sort of angsty about that, right?

01:04:54 ◼   ► Like there's not a Mac Pro, Final Cut Pro X isn't good,

01:04:58 ◼   ► like there are people who see Apple moving to the mainstream

01:05:01 ◼   ► and don't like it, but the simple reality is,

01:05:05 ◼   ► Apple has done that and has been hugely successful

01:05:09 ◼   ► for the company and they're going to continue

01:05:13 ◼   ► to make products and make services,

01:05:15 ◼   ► make cloud services for people in the mainstream and that's a new thing

01:05:19 ◼   ► right there there's still a lot of people who aren't using any cloud

01:05:22 ◼   ► services are very few and the only ones maybe they are using are the ones that

01:05:26 ◼   ► are sort of like baked into iOS so something like iCloud backup just switch

01:05:30 ◼   ► you turn it on and it may be the only cloud services someone uses but because

01:05:35 ◼   ► it's built in because it's from Apple they feel like they can trust it and

01:05:38 ◼   ► they are making it you know making inroads into the the average consumers

01:05:43 ◼   ► habits and lifestyle.

01:05:45 ◼   ► And so for a lot of people, photos on iOS 10

01:05:49 ◼   ► and on MacOS Sierra are going to be the first time

01:05:54 ◼   ► that they see something like this.

01:05:55 ◼   ► And for a lot of people that'll be all they want

01:05:57 ◼   ► and for some other people it'll be like reading lists

01:05:59 ◼   ► and Instapaper of like, oh, I'd like to save bookmarks

01:06:01 ◼   ► for later but I want a little bit more.

01:06:03 ◼   ► And then they go and shop for something else.

01:06:05 ◼   ► So I think it's just another example

01:06:07 ◼   ► in that long line of examples.

01:06:12 ◼   ► Kyle's the Gray in the chat room has pasted an Artcore,

01:06:15 ◼   ► VentureBeat Artcore in May, where Google says

01:06:17 ◼   ► that you have 200 million monthly active users.

01:06:20 ◼   ► So there are definitely some people, right,

01:06:23 ◼   ► that are finding Google Photos,

01:06:24 ◼   ► but that point that you make there, Steven,

01:06:27 ◼   ► cannot be discounted.

01:06:28 ◼   ► Like, it is one of the great things

01:06:30 ◼   ► about having it built into a device like this,

01:06:32 ◼   ► because now people will get something

01:06:34 ◼   ► that they didn't know that they wanted.

01:06:36 ◼   ► And for those people, a lot of these features

01:06:39 ◼   ► will be good enough straight out of the gate, right,

01:06:40 ◼   ► because this is their first try into this stuff

01:06:43 ◼   ► and they'll just be maybe delighted

01:06:45 ◼   ► with the things that they find.

01:06:46 ◼   ► But then I think a lot of people will then maybe try

01:06:49 ◼   ► and look around to see if anybody else is doing it

01:06:52 ◼   ► and that might end up helping Google, but who knows?

01:06:55 ◼   ► - Yeah, absolutely.

01:06:56 ◼   ► - All right, if you'd like to find our show notes

01:06:59 ◼   ► for this week, head on over to relay.fm/connected/101.

01:07:03 ◼   ► Thanks again to Smile for sponsoring this week's episode.

01:07:06 ◼   ► If you'd like to find Federico online,

01:07:08 ◼   ► He is @vitiici, V-I-T-I-C-C-I and writes at maxstories.net.

01:07:12 ◼   ► Steven is @ismh and he is at 512pixels.net.

01:07:16 ◼   ► And I am @imike, I-M-Y-K-E.

01:07:20 ◼   ► We'll be back next time.

01:07:21 ◼   ► Until then, say goodbye, guys.

01:07:23 ◼   ► - Arrivederci.

01:07:24 ◼   ► - Adios.