Connected

00:00:00 ◼   ► [Music]

00:00:06 ◼   ► From Relay FM, this is Connected, episode 124. Today's show is brought to you by Pingdom,

00:00:12 ◼   ► Ministry of Supply and Blue Apron. My name is Myke Hurley and I am joined by Federico Fettucci.

00:00:18 ◼   ► Ciao Federico. Ciao Myke. And Mr Stephen Hackett. Hi Stephen Hackett. Howdy. So I mentioned to Jason

00:00:25 ◼   ► and snow on upgrade yesterday the upgrade is catching up with this show so

00:00:29 ◼   ► upgrade just posted episode 123 we just posted one episode one well we're about

00:00:34 ◼   ► to today post episode one to four how is this possible because we take Christmas

00:00:40 ◼   ► off yeah upgrade doesn't take time off like like we do so we have to schedule

00:00:46 ◼   ► that's that's not healthy Myke you should take some time off the upgrade is

00:00:50 ◼   ► they need to happen. So basically my recommendation now is we move to daily.

00:00:56 ◼   ► Daily? A daily connected show? Okay. For like two weeks we just go daily.

00:01:01 ◼   ► And it's the same length as a regular weekly episode. We record it once

00:01:06 ◼   ► and just release it in like seven trunks. Okay, what do you want to talk about on a

00:01:10 ◼   ► daily show? I think we start with follow-up as you always do. Okay. So our

00:01:18 ◼   ► rumored 10-inch iPad Pro continues to to make news now it is expected that this

00:01:28 ◼   ► is going to be like a new high-end iPad Pro I don't really know what that means

00:01:33 ◼   ► because the 12.9 is also gonna get updated. No you just go higher end than

00:01:37 ◼   ► the Pro it's the iPad Pro Plus. I mean just keep making it more expensive Tim

00:01:41 ◼   ► it'll totally work. The 9.7 inch model is now going,

00:01:46 ◼   ► according to the rumor, be the low priced option.

00:01:49 ◼   ► So I guess the 9.7 inch iPad Pro we have now sticks around

00:01:54 ◼   ► and then the new 10.5 to 10.9, whatever size it is,

00:01:59 ◼   ► it's all very strange and it's all very confusing

00:02:04 ◼   ► and I have a lot of questions.

00:02:06 ◼   ► One, this kind of reads like the iPad Mini

00:02:09 ◼   ► like is either gonna stay the iPad Mini

00:02:11 ◼   ► and not get updated to like Pro status or just go away.

00:02:15 ◼   ► I don't think they can do that, but the iPad Mini is not in here anywhere.

00:02:19 ◼   ► And I'm not sure, like, so part of this analysis says that this is going to be the thing that finally

00:02:28 ◼   ► stops the free fall the iPad has been, which has been slowing down, to be fair.

00:02:35 ◼   ► But I don't know if I believe that. This seems like more of the same playbook of making nicer

00:02:40 ◼   ► merchants of iPads to get people to upgrade, and when they do, you make more money from it.

00:02:45 ◼   ► I think this feels like just another step down that road and not something to like

00:02:49 ◼   ► stem

00:02:51 ◼   ► You know to change the tide. I don't know. What what do you guys think? I have feelings about this rumor

00:02:57 ◼   ► And none of them are actually answers. Um

00:03:00 ◼   ► I mean i'm thinking about i'm thinking about this new form factor. Um, and I have this idea

00:03:06 ◼   ► That apple is gonna is gonna switch to this bezel free design

00:03:11 ◼   ► Both on the ipad and on the iphone

00:03:15 ◼   ► but that it's not going to be a complete switch across the line.

00:03:20 ◼   ► Like there's going to be one iPad model that adopts this new design,

00:03:24 ◼   ► and there's going to be one iPhone model that switches to this new design.

00:03:28 ◼   ► And the other iPhones and iPads are going to stick around.

00:03:31 ◼   ► So we're still going to get the 9.7 with the current bezel design,

00:03:34 ◼   ► we're going to get the 12.9 updated,

00:03:36 ◼   ► and there's going to be the new version that sits in the middle.

00:03:39 ◼   ► And I have this idea that the bezel-free model is actually going to get thicker

00:03:43 ◼   ► because it doesn't have bezels, it doesn't have the home button

00:03:46 ◼   ► and so to make sure that you're holding a single slab of glass

00:03:49 ◼   ► it's gonna be thicker. I don't know why but I have this idea.

00:03:52 ◼   ► I can see that. I mean they have a lot of stuff behind that top and bottom bezel

00:03:56 ◼   ► and it's gotta go somewhere.

00:03:58 ◼   ► Exactly.

00:04:00 ◼   ► I'd be all for that, I think we talked about this, if it gets rid of the stupid camera bump

00:04:04 ◼   ► which I don't mind on my iPhone.

00:04:06 ◼   ► Like it generally doesn't bother me and I carry my iPhone without a case.

00:04:10 ◼   ► It, like, I hate it on my 9.7 inch iPad Pro.

00:04:14 ◼   ► Anytime I like, maybe it's 'cause I'm rougher with the iPad,

00:04:16 ◼   ► like I slide it across the table or like,

00:04:18 ◼   ► put it on my nightstand, like the camera always like,

00:04:20 ◼   ► catches on something, like at some point

00:04:22 ◼   ► I'm just gonna rip the thing out of the body.

00:04:24 ◼   ► So I would love for that to be flush again.

00:04:26 ◼   ► I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

00:04:29 ◼   ► But I kind of agree with you.

00:04:30 ◼   ► I think this is going to be a,

00:04:32 ◼   ► like a staggered design change.

00:04:34 ◼   ► You think about when they went to the design we have now

00:04:38 ◼   ► with the thinner side bezels,

00:04:39 ◼   ► that first appeared on the iPad mini,

00:04:42 ◼   ► 'cause the iPad 4 was still around,

00:04:43 ◼   ► and when the iPad Air came out the next year,

00:04:46 ◼   ► it sort of became a big iPad mini, right?

00:04:48 ◼   ► The same construction, the same bezels.

00:04:51 ◼   ► And so there's precedent for this,

00:04:54 ◼   ► and I think you're right that if they do this,

00:04:56 ◼   ► it's gonna be a big change.

00:04:57 ◼   ► I don't see them doing this to the 12.9.

00:05:00 ◼   ► That thing is, I think,

00:05:03 ◼   ► probably heavier than they want it to be,

00:05:04 ◼   ► so maybe they keep the current construction there but work to get it

00:05:09 ◼   ► thinner and lighter and use this 10.x inch model as like the

00:05:17 ◼   ► new form factor and then you know the next couple years it rolls out everywhere.

00:05:20 ◼   ► I think it's especially interesting to think about a bezel-free design on the

00:05:25 ◼   ► iPad in terms of how it may affect iOS because think about all of the

00:05:31 ◼   ► activation points, all the gestures that you use from the edge of the display on

00:05:36 ◼   ► the iPad, especially multitasking. We have gestures from the edge of the display on

00:05:41 ◼   ► the iPhone 2, but on the iPad, especially if combined with some changes in 10.3,

00:05:45 ◼   ► I assume a bezel-free design would be interesting when you want to activate

00:05:50 ◼   ► multitasking for example, or maybe you want to do drag and drop. I wonder how

00:05:54 ◼   ► this design may be tied to the software and vice-versa. So it'd be

00:05:59 ◼   ► interesting if Apple does a beta 10.3, if we can infer some of the design changes coming

00:06:05 ◼   ► to the hardware to facilitate the changes in the software. So I'm looking forward to

00:06:08 ◼   ► the beta also, not just to see what's actually changing, but also to see if we can guess

00:06:13 ◼   ► what the next hardware is going to be like.

00:06:17 ◼   ► I don't think bezel-free, I mean I think we use the term bezel-free, but I don't think

00:06:22 ◼   ► there will be no bezels. I think that it will be like super thin, but really where we're

00:06:29 ◼   ► we're going to see gains is in the chin and the forehead of the phone, right?

00:06:34 ◼   ► That like it stretches out across on the iPad, like it stretches out and makes everything,

00:06:38 ◼   ► all the bezels a little thinner.

00:06:42 ◼   ► Just because of the things that you mentioned, right?

00:06:44 ◼   ► Like activating side gestures and stuff.

00:06:46 ◼   ► The only other thing that I could assume is if they do go bezel free that they curve the

00:06:50 ◼   ► screen on the edges a little bit.

00:06:53 ◼   ► And then that is what allows you to activate all of the side swiping, which on the iPad

00:06:57 ◼   ► is incredibly important, right?

00:07:00 ◼   ► Because you're actually manipulating parts

00:07:02 ◼   ► of the operating system purely based on these.

00:07:05 ◼   ► So, you know, I think we talk about bezel free,

00:07:08 ◼   ► but I would be really surprised if the first time

00:07:11 ◼   ► that Apple like significantly reduced the bezels

00:07:15 ◼   ► on these devices in a long time,

00:07:16 ◼   ► and I guess on the iPhone it may be in ever,

00:07:19 ◼   ► I think there will still be something there,

00:07:21 ◼   ► but it will be super slight,

00:07:22 ◼   ► and really we'll be getting a lot more benefit

00:07:25 ◼   ► from losing the top and bottom than the sides.

00:07:29 ◼   ► - The big question is what happens to the home button

00:07:31 ◼   ► on the iPad because the current rumor says

00:07:33 ◼   ► there's not gonna be one.

00:07:35 ◼   ► So it's gonna be-- - It doesn't need one.

00:07:37 ◼   ► - I agree.

00:07:38 ◼   ► I think it's gonna be in the screen

00:07:40 ◼   ► and I think the iPad will be a preview of the change

00:07:43 ◼   ► coming to the iPhone as well.

00:07:45 ◼   ► But it's interesting because basically everything

00:07:47 ◼   ► is gonna be based on gestures and there's going to be

00:07:50 ◼   ► touch ID integrated on one side of the display basically.

00:07:53 ◼   ► That's the rumor. - Well, my feeling

00:07:55 ◼   ► different to the iPhone.

00:07:57 ◼   ► I my feeling it just doesn't need

00:07:59 ◼   ► the iPad doesn't need a home button at all

00:08:01 ◼   ► because gestures

00:08:04 ◼   ► to activate those functions

00:08:07 ◼   ► are way easier to achieve with the iPad.

00:08:09 ◼   ► And for me, I don't know about you

00:08:12 ◼   ► guys, but I always

00:08:14 ◼   ► use those gestures, you know, like the

00:08:16 ◼   ► pinch gesture

00:08:18 ◼   ► and the swipe up gesture with the four

00:08:19 ◼   ► or five fingers.

00:08:20 ◼   ► Like that's how I get to the home screen

00:08:23 ◼   ► and get to multitasking on my iPads.

00:08:25 ◼   ► all the time. And I think that with the iPad they can get away with that, right?

00:08:30 ◼   ► Like if they haven't worked out a way to do what I assume is an incredibly

00:08:34 ◼   ► difficult task of embedding a home button in the screen, they could maybe get away with it.

00:08:39 ◼   ► Because as F. Hanshaw in the chat room is suggesting about 3D touch, now I would expect

00:08:46 ◼   ► that a home button embedded in a screen is going to need 3D touch, right? It's going to

00:08:51 ◼   ► need the haptic motors and I'm unconvinced that that is coming to the iPad line.

00:08:58 ◼   ► So I wouldn't be surprised, there's no home button but look how great these gestures are.

00:09:02 ◼   ► That's where I think it might go with the iPad at least but I don't think it would be

00:09:05 ◼   ► that way for the iPhone.

00:09:06 ◼   ► Yeah I mean I don't use gestures much.

00:09:10 ◼   ► I guess the big question for me is what's gonna happen to all of the accessibility features

00:09:16 ◼   ► based on the home button?

00:09:18 ◼   ► what's gonna happen to Siri if you don't have a button on the screen, you know?

00:09:22 ◼   ► But I guess these are also...

00:09:24 ◼   ► No physical hardware button makes the accessibility stuff difficult, whether it's in the screen

00:09:28 ◼   ► or not, right?

00:09:29 ◼   ► Because if there is a home button in the screen, right, if we take it to that perceived idea

00:09:34 ◼   ► of where that's gonna go, you won't feel it.

00:09:37 ◼   ► So it's always gonna be a problem for accessibility reasons.

00:09:41 ◼   ► So I'm interested to see that.

00:09:43 ◼   ► I'm still unconvinced about this home button in the screen idea. I

00:09:47 ◼   ► Remain unconvinced about that as a thing to be honest

00:09:51 ◼   ► And I know that it's like it is an idea and it is a good idea

00:09:55 ◼   ► But it just seems like an a really tricky engineering problem that I'm

00:10:01 ◼   ► Unconvinced Apple has solved like, you know, and I look at the MacBook Pro's as an example of that, you know

00:10:09 ◼   ► like the little touch ID

00:10:11 ◼   ► Section on the on the touch bar and really that should be screen, but it's not

00:10:16 ◼   ► And and so I just remain unconvinced that that is a problem that's solved

00:10:20 ◼   ► But I think that they have time and I like the idea of doing it in one model because it lends

00:10:26 ◼   ► I'm so happy Federico to hear that you are already leaning towards my idea of the iPhone pro prediction

00:10:33 ◼   ► For later in the year. I can't believe you're around already

00:10:37 ◼   ► I didn't say that you said you thought that they might do one iPhone didn't say iPhone Pro

00:10:43 ◼   ► it's but if they do right like if they have if they have an iPhone 7s, which is the

00:10:48 ◼   ► Design that we have right now and then they have another one that's more expensive and has a bezel less design

00:10:55 ◼   ► It would probably be called the iPhone Pro right like it makes sense. I am I

00:10:59 ◼   ► Think I can see that right like that

00:11:02 ◼   ► these are thicker phones that are incredibly expensive like and the iPad

00:11:06 ◼   ► as well like this 10.5 or whatever it's gonna be that thing's gonna be over a

00:11:11 ◼   ► thousand dollars like if they do what we're thinking that they're gonna do

00:11:16 ◼   ► they put it there and the idea of it like taking the iPad out of the

00:11:19 ◼   ► tailspin is it just increases profits right because this iPad appeals to

00:11:24 ◼   ► everyone that bought the pro last year right it's like it's meant for them so

00:11:29 ◼   ► So we buy another one after a year and it pushes the profits up.

00:11:34 ◼   ► And if I get a nice design out of it and a cool new iPad, like I'm happy to give them

00:11:38 ◼   ► my money, I think that's the point.

00:11:42 ◼   ► You're always happy to give them your money.

00:11:44 ◼   ► Well I mean with the iPad, definitely.

00:11:48 ◼   ► Shopping problems return.

00:11:49 ◼   ► So we have a bunch of topics this week, but first Myke do you want to tell us about our

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00:11:54 ◼   ► I most certainly do.

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00:14:16 ◼   ► of this show and Relay FM.

00:14:18 ◼   ► - So up first we're gonna talk about CES, everyone.

00:14:23 ◼   ► favorite Las Vegas event destination dumpster fire. So you know CES

00:14:33 ◼   ► generally the Apple community kind of rolls its eyes at. I think there's some

00:14:36 ◼   ► good reasons there but this year a really interesting story caught our

00:14:39 ◼   ► attention and that is basically Alexa being built in to all all sorts of

00:14:46 ◼   ► things. Mine just turned on it's staring at me. So it's important to kind of break

00:14:52 ◼   ► this down. So the service was built into the Echo, Apple's hardware, or Amazon's

00:14:58 ◼   ► hardware, but there is also a way that third-party hardware manufacturers can

00:15:04 ◼   ► tap into that ecosystem. So there are a couple different ways they can do it.

00:15:07 ◼   ► They can put the voice services package into their hardware or they can

00:15:13 ◼   ► basically pass it off to Amazon directly. So a couple different ways other

00:15:18 ◼   ► companies can build on top of the service. And so we see a lot of this at

00:15:24 ◼   ► CES. Everything from like smartwatches, someone put it in a refrigerator for some

00:15:29 ◼   ► reason, Ford, the auto company is rolling it into their vehicles. So beginning

00:15:36 ◼   ► I think this year you'll be able to talk to your echo and say hey start my car or

00:15:41 ◼   ► hey unlock the doors but eventually it will roll out where it's in vehicle so you

00:15:46 ◼   ► can actually be in your car and talk to it like you can talk to Siri in your car.

00:15:50 ◼   ► So there's this common burn that we're getting into this that Alexa doesn't really work as

00:15:56 ◼   ► an assistant because it is stuck in your kitchen to quote Phil Schiller and that's like that

00:16:01 ◼   ► burn is already out of date like it is changing.

00:16:04 ◼   ► And I find it really fascinating that this thing is just spreading like wildfire.

00:16:12 ◼   ► Well, there's a bunch of points that we need to make otherwise we're just gonna make some people upset.

00:16:18 ◼   ► The obvious first

00:16:20 ◼   ► counter argument would be that Apple is taking a different approach with HomeKit and Siri

00:16:25 ◼   ► which is basically we gotta talk about these two things combined because

00:16:29 ◼   ► Alexa is both an assistant and also a suite of home connected services and devices.

00:16:35 ◼   ► So the big difference is that Siri works internationally and

00:16:40 ◼   ► HomeKit is not limited to the United States

00:16:44 ◼   ► whereas the

00:16:47 ◼   ► Web services and the echo are like available in three countries

00:16:51 ◼   ► I think the US the UK and Germany if I'm not mistaken at this point in the show

00:16:56 ◼   ► I would like to just ask a question. Yes. Okay. Do we say that word or not? I

00:17:01 ◼   ► Muted my my well sure. I've also muted mine, but we could be setting off

00:17:09 ◼   ► devices all around the globe.

00:17:11 ◼   ► - Jason Snell said that that's fine for media to do,

00:17:13 ◼   ► I think so.

00:17:14 ◼   ► - No, I don't think he did.

00:17:15 ◼   ► I would say echo, all right, that we call it the echo.

00:17:18 ◼   ► - No, no, just tell people to mute their speakers right now

00:17:23 ◼   ► because we're gonna say the word.

00:17:25 ◼   ► - As it stands currently, I have taken notes to bleep

00:17:28 ◼   ► every time it is mentioned.

00:17:30 ◼   ► - I think we just say it and you just bleep them all.

00:17:31 ◼   ► I think it'd be hilarious.

00:17:32 ◼   ► - No, I don't want all that work.

00:17:34 ◼   ► I think we should just call it the echo.

00:17:35 ◼   ► I think that that is fair.

00:17:37 ◼   ► - I think we need to live dangerously every once in a while.

00:17:39 ◼   ► No, I don't like to do that.

00:17:40 ◼   ► Just say Alexa.

00:17:42 ◼   ► See, it's fine.

00:17:43 ◼   ► It's fine.

00:17:44 ◼   ► Yeah, but every time you say it, I'm bleeping you, so.

00:17:47 ◼   ► No, no, don't say Alexa.

00:17:49 ◼   ► Don't bleep me, Michael, Alexa.

00:17:50 ◼   ► Come on.

00:17:51 ◼   ► Oh, I just want to say Alexa.

00:17:53 ◼   ► Okay, anyway.

00:17:54 ◼   ► I will get you for this.

00:17:57 ◼   ► No, no you won't.

00:17:58 ◼   ► So there's a difference between Amazon's approach

00:18:02 ◼   ► and Apple's approach.

00:18:04 ◼   ► They're different.

00:18:04 ◼   ► You could argue that Apple's is more considered maybe.

00:18:08 ◼   ► They have, in theory, they have strict security requirements.

00:18:11 ◼   ► The reason why you have fewer HomeKit devices

00:18:14 ◼   ► than Alexa connected devices is that based on what we know,

00:18:19 ◼   ► based on the rumors we heard,

00:18:21 ◼   ► based on some reports from publications in the past,

00:18:25 ◼   ► Apple is very slow to approve new HomeKit devices.

00:18:29 ◼   ► You gotta have a special chip inside.

00:18:31 ◼   ► It's not like you can make a security camera

00:18:33 ◼   ► with some web service and there you go.

00:18:35 ◼   ► You just sign up for the Amazon web services

00:18:37 ◼   ► you can roll out the election integration. It doesn't work that way with HomeKit.

00:18:40 ◼   ► But also the counter counter argument is Amazon started slow, now is taking the Netflix approach,

00:18:50 ◼   ► which is you have a basic product that works well, is fast and now is spreading. Starting with the US,

00:18:58 ◼   ► the UK, Germany, now it's coming out on a bunch of different devices and they have what Apple

00:19:04 ◼   ► doesn't have with Serum HomeKit which is Momentum and Amazon is able now to

00:19:09 ◼   ► scale the product from the US to Europe to hundreds of devices that you know

00:19:17 ◼   ► they're not available in HomeKit. You don't have HomeKit fridges, you don't

00:19:21 ◼   ► have you know HomeKit cars of course. It's two very different strategies and I

00:19:30 ◼   ► I tend to sit somewhere in the middle. I love my Echo.

00:19:35 ◼   ► I also realize that Siri and HomeKit are available to more people around the world.

00:19:42 ◼   ► But also on the other hand, I have a better experience with Alexa and the Echo than I have with Siri.

00:19:50 ◼   ► I know that it's not as flexible, but every time I ask a question to my Echo, it responds.

00:19:58 ◼   ► Whereas I don't have the same experience with, you know, with Siri and other HomeKit devices.

00:20:04 ◼   ► And furthermore, the Echo is able to talk to more services than Siri is.

00:20:09 ◼   ► I mean, already, you know, I'm able to do way more by having queries of my Echo and asking it to do things for me than Siri can.

00:20:17 ◼   ► Siri cannot arm my Canary via IFTTT, you know?

00:20:24 ◼   ► I mean that's definitely like the fundamental difference between the two companies approaches

00:20:28 ◼   ► and you know the Verge had this article pitching Electa versus the HomeKit which I think is

00:20:33 ◼   ► pretty unfair not only like you said Electa does a lot more than that but the they're

00:20:39 ◼   ► just different things and one reason I think that Amazon has seen success is that they

00:20:45 ◼   ► do open up what they call skills to anybody so like you know Federico could write a skill

00:20:51 ◼   ► you know you could say, "Oh I did." Yeah, Vittucci teaching me Italian. Like,

00:20:58 ◼   ► anybody can do almost anything with it. Now contrast that with Apple, with

00:21:02 ◼   ► HomeKit, and with Siri. SiriKit is only open to select types of applications and

00:21:07 ◼   ► you have to to fit within Apple's template of how you use it. And HomeKit

00:21:12 ◼   ► is only available to hardware manufacturers that go through from what

00:21:17 ◼   ► seems to be from the outside an

00:21:19 ◼   ► extremely difficult process to get

00:21:21 ◼   ► approved. Now there's pros and cons to

00:21:24 ◼   ► both, right? Amazon has wide-reaching

00:21:27 ◼   ► skills and Apple's is more narrow. Now you

00:21:32 ◼   ► may say that Apple's may be higher

00:21:33 ◼   ► quality or more secure because they're

00:21:35 ◼   ► controlling everything. It's not really

00:21:37 ◼   ► the debate for today. They're just

00:21:38 ◼   ► different and I think that comparing

00:21:42 ◼   ► Amazon and Apple in these arenas is just

00:21:45 ◼   ► tricky. They're not, it's not apples to

00:21:47 ◼   ► oranges it's not really the same thing but you know the time is coming where

00:21:54 ◼   ► Apple is going to have to address this I think this is where we get into the Phil

00:21:57 ◼   ► Schiller interview which was really about the iPhone anniversary but this

00:22:00 ◼   ► came up that you know he says you know Apple has a strong platform in Siri and

00:22:06 ◼   ► in the iPhone and Amazon doesn't well all that takes is Amazon having an

00:22:14 ◼   ► to Apple potentially for iOS.

00:22:16 ◼   ► There's already a third party one

00:22:17 ◼   ► I think all three of us use.

00:22:18 ◼   ► There are ways that Amazon can get more places

00:22:21 ◼   ► and we're seeing that at CES.

00:22:23 ◼   ► And yes, some of that stuff's gonna be vaporware

00:22:25 ◼   ► because it's CES.

00:22:27 ◼   ► Stop emailing us now, we know that happens.

00:22:30 ◼   ► I think a lot of people write off CES completely for that.

00:22:33 ◼   ► I think that's the wrong approach.

00:22:34 ◼   ► But you cannot deny that Amazon is out there in more places,

00:22:38 ◼   ► out there doing more things than Apple.

00:22:39 ◼   ► And is Apple gonna catch up?

00:22:41 ◼   ► or is Apple going to sit this round out?

00:22:44 ◼   ► I think the three of us agree that Apple

00:22:48 ◼   ► needs to make a move here.

00:22:49 ◼   ► - I agree with the CES argument to a point,

00:22:53 ◼   ► but when Ford are integrating Amazon's assistant product

00:22:56 ◼   ► into their cars, that's not-- - It's a real thing.

00:22:59 ◼   ► - That's not vaporware, right?

00:23:01 ◼   ► Like maybe somebody who made something

00:23:03 ◼   ► that looks like the Echo, but is a wall lamp

00:23:08 ◼   ► and it's a company you've never heard of before,

00:23:10 ◼   ► then yeah, I mean I can get what you're saying,

00:23:12 ◼   ► but for deciding that they're gonna integrate this

00:23:15 ◼   ► instead of maybe using some of their sync features

00:23:17 ◼   ► that they've been creating over the last 10 years,

00:23:20 ◼   ► that's a pretty big deal.

00:23:22 ◼   ► - With Microsoft, by the way.

00:23:24 ◼   ► Yeah, the F-150 is not vaporware.

00:23:26 ◼   ► These are real things.

00:23:28 ◼   ► And so that's one reason I find the Phil Schiller quote

00:23:31 ◼   ► a little bit troubling.

00:23:33 ◼   ► He says that Siri is great because as the assistant with you

00:23:37 ◼   ► We've heard that line from people for a while now.

00:23:41 ◼   ► Schiller's not the first one to say it.

00:23:43 ◼   ► And that is true, there is value in that.

00:23:47 ◼   ► And it is true that for the most part,

00:23:50 ◼   ► unless I go out and buy a new pickup truck,

00:23:52 ◼   ► I'm from Tennessee, it could happen,

00:23:53 ◼   ► but unless I go buy a new Ford

00:23:55 ◼   ► or buy a smartwatch with this in it,

00:23:57 ◼   ► then my access to the Amazon ecosystem

00:24:01 ◼   ► is limited to my office and to my kitchen

00:24:03 ◼   ► where I have the Echo.

00:24:04 ◼   ► So he's right about that.

00:24:06 ◼   ► And I think he's right that there are certain circumstances

00:24:09 ◼   ► where you really wanna have a display.

00:24:11 ◼   ► And he really hammers on this in this back channel interview

00:24:14 ◼   ► that Siri is useful because it can surface stuff

00:24:18 ◼   ► on a display, and that's, again, that's not wrong,

00:24:20 ◼   ► that's not incorrect, but I do think it's incomplete.

00:24:24 ◼   ► That a lot of stuff, like the reason

00:24:27 ◼   ► that Amazon has seen success is there are times

00:24:30 ◼   ► where you don't care about a screen.

00:24:32 ◼   ► And that I think why these things end up in kitchens

00:24:35 ◼   ► is because people have, you know,

00:24:36 ◼   ► they're elbow deep in making muffins

00:24:38 ◼   ► and they need to shout a question to a cylinder

00:24:40 ◼   ► and the cylinder can answer them.

00:24:41 ◼   ► And it gets it right, like 100% of the time.

00:24:44 ◼   ► They are different markets to a degree.

00:24:47 ◼   ► There's overlap, but they are slightly different markets.

00:24:49 ◼   ► And there are rumors that a future Echo will have a display.

00:24:54 ◼   ► I'm telling you, if they do that,

00:24:55 ◼   ► like I'm gonna upgrade the one in my kitchen

00:24:56 ◼   ► 'cause there are times where I want that.

00:24:58 ◼   ► And he's right that Siri has access

00:25:00 ◼   ► to a bunch of your content,

00:25:01 ◼   ► a bunch of information that Amazon doesn't.

00:25:04 ◼   ► Amazon doesn't have my photo library.

00:25:06 ◼   ► They don't have my calendars and contacts like Siri does.

00:25:10 ◼   ► But that hasn't stopped me

00:25:13 ◼   ► from using Amazon's product heavily.

00:25:17 ◼   ► So I think he's sort of like,

00:25:20 ◼   ► I think his argument's a little off base

00:25:22 ◼   ► and it's one of those things we were talking yesterday.

00:25:25 ◼   ► I don't know if Schiller blasting the Echo

00:25:28 ◼   ► is like Apple being coy,

00:25:29 ◼   ► like Steve Jobs saying no one wants to watch a video

00:25:31 ◼   ► on an iPod and then three months later

00:25:33 ◼   ► announces the video iPod.

00:25:35 ◼   ► Or if it's they really don't get it

00:25:38 ◼   ► and they really think they are making the right decision.

00:25:42 ◼   ► And I can't tell which it is.

00:25:44 ◼   ► I hope that they're just being coy

00:25:45 ◼   ► 'cause I think they should be in this space.

00:25:47 ◼   ► But it is a little concerning that, you know,

00:25:49 ◼   ► maybe Schiller's writing this off and they don't need to be.

00:25:52 ◼   ► - Yeah, this lends into like another kind of concern

00:25:55 ◼   ► that I have right now, which is like,

00:25:58 ◼   ► The two kind of agreed upon strands of technology that the majority of the large companies are going down

00:26:05 ◼   ► Are you have a voice assistant?

00:26:07 ◼   ► Technology like voice assistant

00:26:09 ◼   ► machines, you know like these

00:26:12 ◼   ► dedicated

00:26:13 ◼   ► boxes

00:26:14 ◼   ► Or and VR and right now Apple seems to be downplaying

00:26:19 ◼   ► Both of these right that they say that the canisters are not in not what we want

00:26:25 ◼   ► What we want is something that is in our pockets all the time, which may be, you know, to add a straddle to that

00:26:32 ◼   ► Which is yes, I understand could be very good. But my argument is where do people actually use these things? I

00:26:37 ◼   ► Don't think people use them on the subway

00:26:40 ◼   ► So I don't know how necessary is I think having something that has a ton of microphones in it because it's a big tube

00:26:49 ◼   ► It's maybe better depending on where it wants to be used

00:26:53 ◼   ► like the places I want to use this stuff is in my home and I can like cover my entire home with one

00:26:59 ◼   ► of the big cylinders and one of the little ones right no matter what it is and I'm going to cover

00:27:03 ◼   ► the majority of my house as long as I speak loudly enough and then the other is virtual reality which

00:27:08 ◼   ► most likely is just going to have effects in gaming but we don't know

00:27:13 ◼   ► and these seem to be like two of the biggest things that are happening right now and

00:27:18 ◼   ► Apple is downplaying both of them and doesn't appear to have anything in those areas and

00:27:22 ◼   ► And this is either a good thing, right?

00:27:25 ◼   ► That they're focusing on something

00:27:26 ◼   ► which is gonna end up being more important,

00:27:27 ◼   ► like the way that we know Apple to be, right?

00:27:30 ◼   ► Like, oh, that they're working on AR

00:27:32 ◼   ► and we don't know it yet

00:27:33 ◼   ► because we haven't seen Apple's product.

00:27:35 ◼   ► But when we do, we realize that everything else is silly

00:27:38 ◼   ► or they're missing and that they end up

00:27:42 ◼   ► in a Microsoft situation or a Facebook situation

00:27:46 ◼   ► where they miss the boat on something

00:27:48 ◼   ► and that it ends up hurting them in the long run.

00:27:51 ◼   ► I actually don't know what one it is,

00:27:54 ◼   ► but I feel like that I'm willing to ask the question

00:27:58 ◼   ► more than in previous times.

00:28:01 ◼   ► - And it is important to remember that,

00:28:05 ◼   ► like Apple, if you look at the iPod

00:28:08 ◼   ► and the iPhone in particular,

00:28:10 ◼   ► and the Apple Watch to a lesser degree,

00:28:12 ◼   ► Apple is okay sitting on the sidelines

00:28:16 ◼   ► watching a market figure itself out,

00:28:19 ◼   ► and then they come in.

00:28:19 ◼   ► So they weren't the first music player,

00:28:21 ◼   ► they weren't the first smartphone,

00:28:22 ◼   ► they weren't the first smartwatch wearable thing.

00:28:26 ◼   ► And they come in and they usually do it better,

00:28:30 ◼   ► it's usually more expensive,

00:28:31 ◼   ► but they end up dominating in one way or another.

00:28:34 ◼   ► So this conversation we are having,

00:28:37 ◼   ► I agree with you, it's worth having.

00:28:40 ◼   ► I think it's particularly interesting this time

00:28:41 ◼   ► because voice cylinders have taken off super quickly,

00:28:46 ◼   ► like more quickly than these other

00:28:47 ◼   ► product categories did, I think.

00:28:49 ◼   ► And is this another case of Apple letting the market

00:28:53 ◼   ► figure itself out?

00:28:54 ◼   ► Or maybe they were caught flat-footed,

00:28:55 ◼   ► they weren't working on this at all,

00:28:56 ◼   ► and then all of a sudden Amazon comes out with this product

00:28:59 ◼   ► that a lot of people, at least nerds, seem to really like,

00:29:01 ◼   ► and now they gotta deal with it?

00:29:04 ◼   ► I don't know what's going on internally, of course,

00:29:06 ◼   ► but there is that conversation to be had

00:29:07 ◼   ► that Apple does this.

00:29:09 ◼   ► They wait for things to settle out enough

00:29:13 ◼   ► where they can come in and dominate.

00:29:17 ◼   ► So maybe that's happening now,

00:29:18 ◼   ► Maybe that's happening with these other things,

00:29:20 ◼   ► but maybe it's not.

00:29:21 ◼   ► And until they ship something, we don't know,

00:29:24 ◼   ► so we have to have this conversation.

00:29:25 ◼   ► But it is interesting, and that's like,

00:29:28 ◼   ► I said this yesterday on a show,

00:29:30 ◼   ► that that's when I will worry about Apple

00:29:33 ◼   ► when they do miss something big like mobile,

00:29:38 ◼   ► like Microsoft missed mobile.

00:29:39 ◼   ► I don't think they've missed anything big yet,

00:29:42 ◼   ► but there's always that concern, right,

00:29:43 ◼   ► that they do miss this, or they do miss if VR takes off.

00:29:46 ◼   ► Robert Scoble yesterday said that Apple is going to ship AR glasses this year.

00:29:50 ◼   ► Who knows what's happening, but that like wait-and-see approach like works to a

00:29:55 ◼   ► degree, but if things get too far out of hand and Apple's not there then that's

00:30:00 ◼   ► when I really start to worry. I think especially about assistants. We cannot

00:30:05 ◼   ► agree that that it's convenient to have one on a phone and it's convenient to

00:30:09 ◼   ► have one with the display, but all these discussions they all come

00:30:15 ◼   ► down for me at least to a simple question. Do you believe it's convenient

00:30:20 ◼   ► also to have an assistant in your home that is separate from the phone? So to

00:30:27 ◼   ► have an assistant that can hear you from a distance, that can talk more

00:30:32 ◼   ► loudly and that doesn't need a display. Because to say "well yeah but Siri has

00:30:39 ◼   ► the display" that's missing the point. We cannot agree that it's convenient to

00:30:42 ◼   ► have an assistant on your main device but is it also useful to have a separate

00:30:47 ◼   ► voice that can hear you inside your home no matter where you are and I'm gonna

00:30:56 ◼   ► follow up to the question with is it also useful to have an assistant that

00:31:02 ◼   ► can talk to a bunch of different services a bunch of different products

00:31:06 ◼   ► and apps instead of limited domains because we shouldn't I think a lot of

00:31:13 ◼   ► people they're trying to downplay the echo and Amazon I'm not saying that it's

00:31:19 ◼   ► a huge threat to Apple right now because a lot of people reply with some kind of

00:31:23 ◼   ► straw man to this problem it's not like Amazon is replacing Apple or that the

00:31:30 ◼   ► echo is winning. In the grand scheme of things they probably haven't solved that many either.

00:31:35 ◼   ► - Exactly, it's just a, you know, if you're a product person,

00:31:38 ◼   ► I think people inside Apple are having these discussions.

00:31:41 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:31:42 ◼   ► - So we can all agree that Siri on the iPhone is awesome,

00:31:46 ◼   ► is convenient, works with a bunch of different languages,

00:31:49 ◼   ► and it's got an interface,

00:31:50 ◼   ► and arguably we can say it is getting better.

00:31:52 ◼   ► But the flip side is, when you're inside your home

00:31:56 ◼   ► and you're free to talk,

00:31:58 ◼   ► you don't have people staring at you

00:32:00 ◼   ► because you're talking to an assistant,

00:32:02 ◼   ► Is it a good idea to have an assistant that can talk more loudly, that is a dedicated device, that it's only job, it's to be a voice only, not a voice first, voice only product?

00:32:15 ◼   ► And I think the answer is yes, because as we're seeing, it's not like it's just, you know, a bunch of podcasters are falling in love with this new product.

00:32:26 ◼   ► It's gaining mindshare.

00:32:29 ◼   ► It's been on TV shows.

00:32:30 ◼   ► It's been on the news.

00:32:31 ◼   ► It's a good idea.

00:32:32 ◼   ► And I think Apple is thinking about this and I think it's you know, it would be silly to say no

00:32:39 ◼   ► No, Apple is never gonna do that because we have Siri because you have a display. Yes, we have a display

00:32:43 ◼   ► Which is awesome

00:32:44 ◼   ► But is it also useful to have a speaker to have an assistant that is only a voice that replies to you

00:32:51 ◼   ► And I think we're gonna see Siri in this form eventually because it is a good idea

00:32:55 ◼   ► funnily enough

00:32:56 ◼   ► One of my favorite things about the echo is one of the things that we all laughed at when we first saw it

00:33:02 ◼   ► That it is in a fixed place in my home because I have a location to direct my query to

00:33:09 ◼   ► which if I'm using my iPhone for this

00:33:13 ◼   ► it's not necessarily where I

00:33:17 ◼   ► Think it is at all times

00:33:20 ◼   ► Right like it moves and I understand that it's good that you might have it on your body

00:33:24 ◼   ► But there's something about it

00:33:25 ◼   ► You know my echo being in a place in the kitchen

00:33:28 ◼   ► That like if I'm watching TV, I can turn around and talk to it

00:33:33 ◼   ► like there is just something that makes sense to me and that it is in a fixed place in which I direct my

00:33:38 ◼   ► Question towards and I actually quite like that and it's funny. You know, this is this is a thing that we're all

00:33:44 ◼   ► We're all guilty of judging things before we try them and I think the echo was definitely one of those

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00:36:27 ◼   ► Alright so Steven you got your hands on one of these little Apple Watch stands right?

00:36:31 ◼   ► Yeah so the Elago W3 it is a silicone Apple Watch stand that looks like a tiny baby Macintosh

00:36:41 ◼   ► And so, of course I bought it.

00:36:44 ◼   ► It was like 15 bucks on Amazon or something.

00:36:47 ◼   ► I showed up this weekend.

00:36:48 ◼   ► I put a little review video together over the weekend.

00:36:51 ◼   ► And I'm, I have used since, I guess since nightstand mode,

00:36:56 ◼   ► which is what, watch OS 2,

00:36:58 ◼   ► I have used a stand for my watch at night

00:37:02 ◼   ► on my bedside table.

00:37:04 ◼   ► So it puts it up and you know,

00:37:05 ◼   ► it looks like a little alarm clock.

00:37:07 ◼   ► If you bump the table or really just even touch it almost,

00:37:11 ◼   ► the watch will wake up and give you the time in a very low light situations.

00:37:16 ◼   ► There's not like blinding which is really nice.

00:37:19 ◼   ► You can set it to do the alarm with the buttons.

00:37:20 ◼   ► I don't ever do that.

00:37:21 ◼   ► But I've and I've used one from Studio Neat the material dock.

00:37:25 ◼   ► That's what I have on my nightstand table.

00:37:27 ◼   ► Now it has a phone and a watch stand kind of in one

00:37:30 ◼   ► and I'm going to continue to use that.

00:37:31 ◼   ► I really like that dock,

00:37:33 ◼   ► but this one was just too adorable to pass up spending some time with.

00:37:38 ◼   ► So you drop the watch into it,

00:37:41 ◼   ► it's cut out where the face of the watch

00:37:43 ◼   ► is the face of the Macintosh, and it's just a lot of fun.

00:37:47 ◼   ► So if you are looking for an Apple Watch saying

00:37:49 ◼   ► I don't want to spend a bunch of money

00:37:50 ◼   ► and want something adorable,

00:37:52 ◼   ► I would point you to this thing.

00:37:55 ◼   ► - Yeah, I use the Studio Neat Material Dock.

00:37:58 ◼   ► I have one of the ones for the phone and the watch,

00:38:03 ◼   ► and then I have one for just the phone

00:38:04 ◼   ► that I have on my desk, and I love it.

00:38:08 ◼   ► I know that obviously Studio Neat are friends of the show, but this is a product that I

00:38:13 ◼   ► was really looking for and I'm a big fan of it.

00:38:15 ◼   ► I think the best thing about it is that it's not like adhesive, but there's this rubber

00:38:22 ◼   ► stuff that they put on the bottom and it keeps it completely stuck to the desk.

00:38:28 ◼   ► Which is fantastic.

00:38:31 ◼   ► You can pick up your iPhone and just take it straight out and you can just pick it up

00:38:35 ◼   ► put it down and then the you know it's really nice to have the watch there and

00:38:39 ◼   ► then the watches in nightstand mode it's I love that product.

00:38:41 ◼   ► Yeah I use the Barkin Valet iPhone and watch. Of course you do you so fancy.

00:38:49 ◼   ► Yeah I like modern style docks and you know these kind of accessories.

00:38:54 ◼   ► That doesn't use nightstand mode does it? Because it holds the watch sort of vertically?

00:38:58 ◼   ► No I don't use nightstand mode because I wear the watch at night. So it's because of

00:39:03 ◼   ► this that I decided to put this dock not in my bedroom on my nightstand but on in

00:39:08 ◼   ► the kitchen / living room where both Silvia and I if we need to we can place

00:39:13 ◼   ► our iPhones and watches when we need a quick charge so yeah yeah it looks nice

00:39:19 ◼   ► it's on an IKEA piece of furniture which is a you know nice contrast between the

00:39:23 ◼   ► black IKEA cabinet and the silver Apple style dock it's very nice fashionable

00:39:29 ◼   ► - I know, wow.

00:39:31 ◼   ► - Yeah, I like that there are a lot of options

00:39:33 ◼   ► for this thing, that you can really pick something

00:39:36 ◼   ► that looks the way you want it to look.

00:39:39 ◼   ► It was nice, I mean, nightstand mode is something that,

00:39:43 ◼   ► it's, I mean, we have a clock in our room, right?

00:39:47 ◼   ► Like, the watch is next to my side of the bed,

00:39:49 ◼   ► my wife can't see it, so it's nice for me,

00:39:52 ◼   ► but it's something that I think some people

00:39:55 ◼   ► get more use out of than others,

00:39:56 ◼   ► but it's one of those things that Apple announces,

00:39:58 ◼   ► Like, this is super clever.

00:40:01 ◼   ► Like, it's one of the things that the watch

00:40:03 ◼   ► kind of should do.

00:40:04 ◼   ► It should be useful as a time piece at night, so.

00:40:06 ◼   ► Good job.

00:40:08 ◼   ► The big news this week though, shockingly guys,

00:40:12 ◼   ► was not Apple Watch stands.

00:40:13 ◼   ► I know we could talk about it all day,

00:40:15 ◼   ► but yesterday marked the 10 year anniversary

00:40:18 ◼   ► of the keynote in which Steve Jobs announced the iPhone.

00:40:23 ◼   ► I think the three of us agree

00:40:24 ◼   ► that it was his finest performance,

00:40:27 ◼   ► perhaps the best product introduction,

00:40:29 ◼   ► at least of our lifetimes, that I can think of.

00:40:31 ◼   ► - No, no, perhaps, no, perhaps.

00:40:33 ◼   ► Like, it is the single greatest product introduction.

00:40:36 ◼   ► - And so we have a bunch of links

00:40:40 ◼   ► in the show notes this week.

00:40:41 ◼   ► Federico and I both wrote some stuff about it,

00:40:44 ◼   ► put some stuff together.

00:40:45 ◼   ► We have a link to the video.

00:40:47 ◼   ► If you have an hour, just go watch the keynote again.

00:40:50 ◼   ► It's outstanding.

00:40:52 ◼   ► If you have eight hours,

00:40:54 ◼   ► you can listen to episode 30 of The Prompt,

00:40:56 ◼   ► is the show that preceded this one.

00:40:58 ◼   ► - Doesn't last seven hours, that episode, I'm sure.

00:41:02 ◼   ► - I listened to it this week,

00:41:03 ◼   ► it's like two and a half hours long.

00:41:06 ◼   ► Well, the two of you and then a very sick version of me

00:41:10 ◼   ► walk through the keynote and it totally holds up.

00:41:14 ◼   ► I think the single proudest I've ever been

00:41:19 ◼   ► of a single podcast episode is this episode.

00:41:23 ◼   ► And then we also have the Wayback Machine link

00:41:27 ◼   ► for the original iPhone website,

00:41:29 ◼   ► which I had totally forgotten how it's all black

00:41:31 ◼   ► and really crazy looking.

00:41:33 ◼   ► But the original specs and Apple trying

00:41:35 ◼   ► to make the phone look small.

00:41:37 ◼   ► Some funny stuff there with age.

00:41:39 ◼   ► Age makes everything funny.

00:41:41 ◼   ► So go check all that out if you haven't read or seen

00:41:44 ◼   ► or listened to much about the iPhone anniversary.

00:41:47 ◼   ► There's lots of good content out there.

00:41:49 ◼   ► But I wanted to see what y'all's first memories

00:41:53 ◼   ► of the iPhone, what were your first reactions?

00:41:57 ◼   ► What were your first thoughts?

00:41:59 ◼   ► Federico, what about you?

00:42:01 ◼   ► - This is gonna be bad for my reputation.

00:42:06 ◼   ► I think I talked about this before, but there we go again.

00:42:09 ◼   ► I didn't watch the original iPhone presentation at the time.

00:42:13 ◼   ► I had no idea what was going on.

00:42:16 ◼   ► I'm pretty sure I didn't even know what Apple was.

00:42:19 ◼   ► I mean, I knew what Apple was,

00:42:20 ◼   ► but from a heard from a friend kind of perspective.

00:42:25 ◼   ► I knew that the Macintosh was a different type of computer,

00:42:29 ◼   ► but I was not a tech nerd.

00:42:30 ◼   ► I was in high school.

00:42:31 ◼   ► I only cared about video games, basically, and music.

00:42:35 ◼   ► So I didn't own the original iPhone,

00:42:39 ◼   ► but that changed quickly after high school.

00:42:43 ◼   ► I tried my, I had a very short

00:42:47 ◼   ► and unsuccessful university experience.

00:42:50 ◼   ► I dropped out, I started my first job at an eBay reseller shop, and my first boss, my

00:42:58 ◼   ► first and only boss actually, he was into the idea of buying an iPhone from the United

00:43:05 ◼   ► States.

00:43:06 ◼   ► So at the time, the first iPhone never actually launched in Italy, and that didn't stop a

00:43:12 ◼   ► bunch of enterprising Italians from buying an iPhone on eBay and using one of the first

00:43:18 ◼   ► jailbreaks/unlock. I think the unlock system was made by a guy named Zibri, and the jailbreak was called the Z-Phone type of method,

00:43:31 ◼   ► which basically allowed you to unlock the carrier of the iPhone and use it on different international carriers, besides AT&T in the United States.

00:43:42 ◼   ► So I remember my boss, he found this guy on eBay, and he bought two iPhones for some reason.

00:43:49 ◼   ► It was the kind of lavish person who liked to spend money.

00:43:52 ◼   ► So he bought two iPhones, and I remember these two boxes coming into the store. I was working.

00:43:58 ◼   ► These two boxes coming to the store, and we opened the iPhones. I think there were two 8 gigabyte models.

00:44:05 ◼   ► Yeah, and

00:44:07 ◼   ► inside the boxes were the AT&T SIMs

00:44:11 ◼   ► that the iPhone came with. So I was very impressed by the, you know, dedication of this eBay seller.

00:44:17 ◼   ► So my boss uses this iPhone for a while and of course

00:44:22 ◼   ► I was in charge of looking up all of the jailbreak techniques because he was also a lazy person.

00:44:26 ◼   ► He only liked to spend money. So I

00:44:29 ◼   ► did the research about the jailbreak. So I, you know,

00:44:34 ◼   ► did the unlock

00:44:37 ◼   ► thing on his phone and that's when I

00:44:40 ◼   ► first tried installer. So installer was this, I remember it was like the precursor of Cydia

00:44:47 ◼   ► you know for the jailbreak. It was like an alternative app store before the App Store that allowed you to install

00:44:53 ◼   ► custom software on the iPhone

00:44:56 ◼   ► you know the first third-party apps on the first third-party tweaks, and it had I remember it had a blue icon

00:45:03 ◼   ► so a couple of months passed it's now

00:45:07 ◼   ► well into

00:45:10 ◼   ► 2008 and

00:45:12 ◼   ► The thing about my boss was a weird guy

00:45:15 ◼   ► He was also very easily distracted

00:45:18 ◼   ► So he used the iPhone for a few months and then he I think he fell in love with some kind of different smartphone

00:45:25 ◼   ► So it's like yeah, I don't care about the iPhone anymore

00:45:27 ◼   ► At that point I had bought an iPod touch because I was really into this idea of you know

00:45:35 ◼   ► iPhone OS and what Apple was doing and so my boss was not using his original iPhone anymore

00:45:41 ◼   ► I was like, hey, what if you what if you sell your iPhone to me?

00:45:45 ◼   ► I was like sure give me like a couple of hundred euros and you can have it

00:45:49 ◼   ► So I bought an iPhone from my boss and I just fell in love with it

00:45:55 ◼   ► Until I bought the 3GS

00:45:58 ◼   ► in

00:46:00 ◼   ► 2009

00:46:02 ◼   ► So I used my my my boss's original iPhone

00:46:06 ◼   ► When the 3G actually came out and didn't buy the iPhone 3G. I used the original iPhone until 3GS in

00:46:13 ◼   ► They came out in I think in Italy in July 2009 back when iPhones used to launch in the summer

00:46:19 ◼   ► so I used my original iPhone for about a year I would say and

00:46:23 ◼   ► You know, it was the beginning of

00:46:26 ◼   ► You know my career eventually I was fired. I started my stories and I started writing about iPhone apps and

00:46:31 ◼   ► I actually regret not being into Apple news, not following the original presentation of Steve Jobs back then.

00:46:41 ◼   ► I watched it, of course, later.

00:46:45 ◼   ► But yeah, it was a strange type of getting into the Apple scene, getting into this whole iPhone thing.

00:46:54 ◼   ► If anything, I mean, I'm thankful to my boss for being that kind of person who buys an iPhone from

00:47:01 ◼   ► an American on eBay, even if he cannot use it and tells me that I should do the research to how to

00:47:07 ◼   ► do the unlock. I'm thankful for that because in his own weird way, he got me into this whole thing.

00:47:15 ◼   ► And now I'm talking to you guys. So there we go. Yeah.

00:47:18 ◼   ► I was already deep within at this point. Like, I had iPods. I watched the presentation on my iMac.

00:47:24 ◼   ► and I don't really remember much of watching the presentation. I believe I have a memory

00:47:31 ◼   ► of watching the presentation but it's one of those memories in which I can see myself

00:47:35 ◼   ► which means it's probably not true. What I do remember though is like on that evening

00:47:42 ◼   ► showing family members different parts of it like the the rubber band scrolling and

00:47:47 ◼   ► stuff and being like "look at this!" like I couldn't help but show people because I

00:47:52 ◼   ► I was so excited about it. And then the other thing that I have a memory of is actually

00:47:57 ◼   ► buying my iPhone, which for us in the UK came much later. We didn't get ours in June. I

00:48:06 ◼   ► think it was more towards the end of that year of 2007. And I remember like having my

00:48:14 ◼   ► brother, he left after school and he stood in line for me because I was working at the

00:48:20 ◼   ► time and I went and kind of met him. We were third in line and then the checkout system

00:48:25 ◼   ► at the car phone warehouse is what the store is called, it's a chain of cell phone stores

00:48:30 ◼   ► here called the car phone warehouse. They started when phones were in cars. Their checkout

00:48:36 ◼   ► system completely failed when the iPhone went on sale because it was like complete overload

00:48:42 ◼   ► so we had to pay in cash and because we paid in cash that was why I didn't buy the little

00:48:48 ◼   ► Apple Bluetooth headset thing.

00:48:49 ◼   ► I was just gonna get that,

00:48:50 ◼   ► 'cause I was just so excited about everything.

00:48:52 ◼   ► I wanted all of it, and I couldn't get out enough cash

00:48:54 ◼   ► to buy both things, so luckily I dodged that bullet.

00:48:58 ◼   ► - Yeah, it wasn't a great product.

00:49:01 ◼   ► - So, yeah, it's like the father of the AirPods, right?

00:49:04 ◼   ► - It is, it's a great, great grandfather.

00:49:07 ◼   ► So I did not watch the keynote the day of.

00:49:11 ◼   ► Of course, I wasn't a livestream unit

00:49:12 ◼   ► following along with blogs.

00:49:13 ◼   ► I was actually traveling, visiting family.

00:49:16 ◼   ► I did work as an Apple retail employee at the time.

00:49:19 ◼   ► So I remember getting back to my cell phone service and a bunch of people texting me going

00:49:26 ◼   ► crazy that Apple had done this insane thing.

00:49:30 ◼   ► I went that evening to dial up my aunt's house looking at those original iPhone web pages

00:49:35 ◼   ► like trying to squeeze every drop of information out of them.

00:49:39 ◼   ► Trying to get my head around it.

00:49:41 ◼   ► I'm not quite sure when I actually watched the keynote video.

00:49:44 ◼   ► Apple was publishing them at that point, I think in iTunes,

00:49:47 ◼   ► but it took a little while to get them.

00:49:48 ◼   ► It wasn't like it is now.

00:49:50 ◼   ► And I just remember being just really, really blown away.

00:49:54 ◼   ► I ended up buying one about three, three or four weeks

00:49:58 ◼   ► after they went on sale.

00:50:00 ◼   ► So like if you've been full time at the Apple store

00:50:03 ◼   ► for a set amount of time, you got a free one

00:50:04 ◼   ► and I missed that cut off by like a week and a half

00:50:08 ◼   ► or like two weeks.

00:50:10 ◼   ► - Oh no.

00:50:11 ◼   ► - And I begged my assistant manager,

00:50:13 ◼   ► who was a friend of mine,

00:50:14 ◼   ► and stole a friend of mine, I was like,

00:50:15 ◼   ► "Please, you gotta let me in on this,"

00:50:17 ◼   ► and he couldn't do it.

00:50:18 ◼   ► And so what he did do is they were coming in very slowly

00:50:21 ◼   ► and he placed that one aside for me,

00:50:23 ◼   ► which he probably wasn't supposed to do.

00:50:26 ◼   ► And then so I was able to purchase one.

00:50:29 ◼   ► And so I was very early.

00:50:30 ◼   ► I've owned every one of them since,

00:50:33 ◼   ► except the 5C and the 5S.

00:50:35 ◼   ► I did switch to Android for a little while in 2011,

00:50:37 ◼   ► but I switched back.

00:50:39 ◼   ► - Man, I forgot that.

00:50:40 ◼   ► You were a Droid person.

00:50:41 ◼   ► I carried a Palm Pre Plus for like three or four months,

00:50:45 ◼   ► and then a Droid for like a year, and then came back.

00:50:49 ◼   ► So it's always been, it's hard to believe

00:50:54 ◼   ► it's been 10 years.

00:50:55 ◼   ► It's really hard to overstate the impact that it's had.

00:51:00 ◼   ► Not only on Apple, I mean obviously Apple,

00:51:02 ◼   ► it's been huge, their stock is way up.

00:51:04 ◼   ► In that prompt 30, I shared how much

00:51:08 ◼   ► I sold my employee stock for,

00:51:10 ◼   ► and if I'd held onto it, I would've made a lot more money.

00:51:13 ◼   ► But I wouldn't own it now anyway,

00:51:15 ◼   ► since I cover it for a living,

00:51:17 ◼   ► but it was kind of funny to hear that.

00:51:19 ◼   ► - Now you gotta own it, man.

00:51:20 ◼   ► Boost that price up, right?

00:51:22 ◼   ► - That's right, yeah, the whole thing is a scam.

00:51:24 ◼   ► But the three of us really were like

00:51:28 ◼   ► the perfect age for this.

00:51:30 ◼   ► Like we can remember a life before it.

00:51:32 ◼   ► - Oh yeah.

00:51:33 ◼   ► - I was 20 at this announcement, 21 when it came out,

00:51:38 ◼   ► And it is really similar to people

00:51:41 ◼   ► whose parents bought them an Apple II

00:51:44 ◼   ► when they were in middle school,

00:51:46 ◼   ► or even elementary school, and they learned to program

00:51:47 ◼   ► in basic on an Apple II, right?

00:51:49 ◼   ► Or they got a Commodore, or they got a PC.

00:51:53 ◼   ► Those very early computers, people who are now

00:51:57 ◼   ► in their 40s or even early 50s who were kids

00:52:01 ◼   ► during the personal PC revolution,

00:52:03 ◼   ► we are that age for the smartphone.

00:52:06 ◼   ► And I wrote a little bit about this yesterday,

00:52:09 ◼   ► I think all three of us had, like,

00:52:11 ◼   ► we owe so much, not only to the iPhone,

00:52:14 ◼   ► but to what it created, right?

00:52:17 ◼   ► To what it made possible.

00:52:20 ◼   ► So things like podcasting, they existed

00:52:23 ◼   ► before Apple had put it into iTunes and the iPod in 2005,

00:52:27 ◼   ► but it wasn't until the iPhone and the App Store

00:52:30 ◼   ► that podcasting, at least tech podcasting,

00:52:33 ◼   ► really was accessible to a lot more people.

00:52:35 ◼   ► And I'd forgotten this, actually found the article.

00:52:38 ◼   ► Remember when Apple rejected the podcast client,

00:52:42 ◼   ► the person who wrote it because it rotated iTunes?

00:52:44 ◼   ► Yeah, that was super fun.

00:52:46 ◼   ► Obviously very different today.

00:52:47 ◼   ► Now the iPhone is a home to a rich ecosystem

00:52:50 ◼   ► of podcast clients.

00:52:52 ◼   ► And if you look at relay stats,

00:52:54 ◼   ► I mean the iPhone just dominates

00:52:55 ◼   ► the way people listen to our shows.

00:52:57 ◼   ► And things like social media, right?

00:53:00 ◼   ► Things like Twitter, like the three of us met

00:53:03 ◼   ► more or less on Twitter.

00:53:05 ◼   ► - That's 100% how it happened.

00:53:07 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:53:08 ◼   ► - Yeah, like my pitch to Federico to join me and you

00:53:13 ◼   ► was a direct message on Twitter.

00:53:14 ◼   ► - Yes, yes it was.

00:53:17 ◼   ► - And you know, the people that we work with

00:53:20 ◼   ► and like the blogs that Federico and I write,

00:53:22 ◼   ► like those are all possible because of the web

00:53:25 ◼   ► being in our pocket all the time.

00:53:27 ◼   ► Like I don't know about Mac stories, but on 512,

00:53:28 ◼   ► the majority of my traffic is mobile now.

00:53:30 ◼   ► Like that crossed a couple of years ago.

00:53:33 ◼   ► And that's a real thing.

00:53:35 ◼   ► And you have to think about mobile first design

00:53:37 ◼   ► and mobile first content.

00:53:38 ◼   ► All that stuff wouldn't be here

00:53:41 ◼   ► if the iPhone hadn't been a success.

00:53:44 ◼   ► And I was just thinking through what line of work,

00:53:47 ◼   ► what part of the economy, what part of the world

00:53:50 ◼   ► hasn't been touched by the smartphone.

00:53:52 ◼   ► And it's really hard to come up with an example.

00:53:55 ◼   ► It's just everywhere.

00:53:56 ◼   ► - I don't know if it's the same for you guys,

00:53:58 ◼   ► but I was thinking about this this week especially.

00:54:02 ◼   ► I remember life before the smartphone, before the internet everywhere.

00:54:07 ◼   ► But I also don't really remember it.

00:54:13 ◼   ► Like, it almost doesn't make any sense.

00:54:15 ◼   ► That there was a time where you couldn't look up maps on your phone or talk to anyone for free.

00:54:23 ◼   ► Like, these things, they were started, kickstarted by the iPhone and by the App Store.

00:54:30 ◼   ► But I don't know, maybe it's the fact that we're getting older, could be, and maybe it's the fact that it's been 10 years.

00:54:38 ◼   ► But I struggle to remember how it used to be.

00:54:43 ◼   ► I remember when my parents and I went on road trips, we had to actually take out fold-out maps with us.

00:54:51 ◼   ► And now you just walk out and you fire up Google Maps or Apple Maps on your phone and you can get to anywhere.

00:54:58 ◼   ► So it is difficult for me to remember how it used to be because it's been such a

00:55:02 ◼   ► fundamental change to society, to the way that we do everything.

00:55:07 ◼   ► I struggle to remember how it used to be. I know I used to have other phones.

00:55:11 ◼   ► I know it used to be different. It just doesn't make sense when I think about it.

00:55:16 ◼   ► Yeah, I agree. It's like I know that I lived that life.

00:55:19 ◼   ► Yes. Right? Like I know I did because I was 18 years old.

00:55:23 ◼   ► Right? So like I have memories of my life, many memories where I didn't have a

00:55:27 ◼   ► smartphone, but I now think of it in like a, how, how was that true?

00:55:34 ◼   ► Exactly.

00:55:35 ◼   ► How was it possible?

00:55:36 ◼   ► My first trip that I took abroad on my own, like it was my girlfriend at the time.

00:55:44 ◼   ► The iPhone 3G came out the day before.

00:55:51 ◼   ► It's like every trip I have ever taken where I am in control of where I'm going

00:55:57 ◼   ► has been powered by GPS in my smartphone.

00:56:00 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:56:02 ◼   ► I never took a trip before that.

00:56:03 ◼   ► And like, and I can't imagine doing that.

00:56:07 ◼   ► Cause it's like, for me, it's like knowing where I am on a map is how I travel.

00:56:12 ◼   ► And without that, it's like, I mean, I can read a map, but I'm way less confident

00:56:18 ◼   ► about what I'm doing and where I'm going.

00:56:20 ◼   ► Like with my iPhone, I'm able to walk somewhere,

00:56:24 ◼   ► go somewhere without like putting constant focus to the map.

00:56:28 ◼   ► And that is like such a powerful thing.

00:56:31 ◼   ► And it's one of the myriad of things

00:56:36 ◼   ► in ways in which the iPhone has touched and changed my life.

00:56:39 ◼   ► - Yeah, it really is such a change,

00:56:44 ◼   ► like so fundamentally different before and after.

00:56:47 ◼   ► And you know, people had taste of it before, right?

00:56:49 ◼   ► Like if you were cool like me in college

00:56:52 ◼   ► and carried a Newton so you could do your email in class.

00:56:55 ◼   ► Those of us who were really ahead of the curve

00:56:58 ◼   ► had a little bit of it.

00:57:00 ◼   ► But for like, what the iPhone really has done

00:57:04 ◼   ► is that it has given, like what Apple calls

00:57:07 ◼   ► in that original webpage, high technology

00:57:10 ◼   ► to like to so many people.

00:57:12 ◼   ► And yes, it should be more affordable

00:57:14 ◼   ► and yes, there's still parts of the world

00:57:16 ◼   ► where it's not made an impact

00:57:17 ◼   ► the way it has in other places.

00:57:19 ◼   ► But it has taken technology and put it in the hands

00:57:23 ◼   ► of more people than ever.

00:57:24 ◼   ► I mean, how many people just have a smartphone

00:57:27 ◼   ► as their only computer?

00:57:28 ◼   ► And that the only way to the internet they have

00:57:31 ◼   ► is through an iPhone or through some other smartphone.

00:57:34 ◼   ► That is a serious change,

00:57:38 ◼   ► like economic, social change in the world.

00:57:43 ◼   ► And in 2007, it was just this clever, you know,

00:57:47 ◼   ► phone that you could prank call Starbucks on if you were Steve Jobs.

00:57:51 ◼   ► But I think even then, if you read interviews with Apple at the time or some videos of Steve

00:57:57 ◼   ► Jobs making the rounds, I think they knew it was a big deal, but I think it was impossible

00:58:02 ◼   ► to really tell.

00:58:03 ◼   ► I certainly didn't foresee it coming.

00:58:06 ◼   ► I don't really think anyone really did understand just what it could do in a really short period

00:58:13 ◼   ► of time.

00:58:14 ◼   ► I think by the time we were like the iPhone 4 or 4s like it was it was turning the corner from

00:58:20 ◼   ► something that like nerdy people had to

00:58:23 ◼   ► like

00:58:25 ◼   ► Regular everyday people like people who have no idea what relay FM is like it's hard to believe they're out there

00:58:31 ◼   ► But they are are there those people do they even exist?

00:58:33 ◼   ► It's it's hard to say but you know, you know what I'm saying? Like it made the turn and

00:58:37 ◼   ► And now it is making a turn

00:58:40 ◼   ► Into countries and into markets and into parts of the world

00:58:44 ◼   ► that have never had technology before.

00:58:46 ◼   ► You know, we went from, and this is why,

00:58:48 ◼   ► there's all this angst, right?

00:58:49 ◼   ► We went from the PC and the Mac to mobile devices

00:58:53 ◼   ► and there are people on either side of that divide

00:58:55 ◼   ► and there's lots of, you know, lots of angst there.

00:58:58 ◼   ► But it's now moving into parts of the world

00:59:00 ◼   ► where that divide doesn't exist

00:59:02 ◼   ► because the personal PC never,

00:59:04 ◼   ► couldn't make a dent there, right?

00:59:05 ◼   ► Due to infrastructure, due to cost,

00:59:08 ◼   ► but the smartphone can and that is really incredible.

00:59:11 ◼   ► So this is the first of the two birthdays of the iPhone, right?

00:59:16 ◼   ► We'll be talking about this again in like six months or something.

00:59:19 ◼   ► Yeah, June 29th.

00:59:21 ◼   ► Happy birthday iPhone.

00:59:24 ◼   ► Oh man, I feel like I need a hug right now.

00:59:27 ◼   ► Oh, it's okay.

00:59:29 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:59:31 ◼   ► Just having a moment.

00:59:34 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:59:37 ◼   ► This week's episode is also brought to you by our friends over at Blue Apron, the company

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01:02:00 ◼   ► So last week there was a post on Medium about Medium, it's like the most Medium something

01:02:06 ◼   ► could be.

01:02:09 ◼   ► The title is called "Renewing Medium's Focus" and Ev Williams basically outlines that Medium's

01:02:16 ◼   ► business model is not working, they are changing business model, they are moving away from

01:02:21 ◼   ► ads and looking at potentially doing a more direct support model.

01:02:28 ◼   ► But the thing about this post is they kind of say that they want a new business model

01:02:34 ◼   ► without outlining what the business model is.

01:02:37 ◼   ► And they've decided to fire all of their salespeople, scale down the company and then say we're

01:02:45 ◼   ► not sure what we're going to do yet, but trust us, we got this.

01:02:52 ◼   ► This isn't, I think, a very strong showing from Medium.

01:02:57 ◼   ► me of the gif that Steven often shares of the garbage truck on fire just driving. I

01:03:04 ◼   ► don't have a good feeling about this.

01:03:08 ◼   ► Again, media is a company full of people. We feel sorry for the people that lost their

01:03:12 ◼   ► jobs, of course.

01:03:13 ◼   ► Yes, of course we do.

01:03:14 ◼   ► My understanding is, you know, I like seeing this, like, when you see something like this

01:03:19 ◼   ► happen, and then you see tweets from people at Tumblr who are like "Hey, come work for

01:03:22 ◼   ► us!" Although I don't know what Tumblr's standing is right now with, what is it, Al

01:03:26 ◼   ► Altaba we have on the horizon?

01:03:28 ◼   ► Yes.

01:03:29 ◼   ► Altaba everyone.

01:03:30 ◼   ► Altaba.

01:03:31 ◼   ► And we'll find everything we need in it.

01:03:36 ◼   ► Anyway, so one of the things that's really interesting to me about this is Medium's prior

01:03:43 ◼   ► business model was trying to get publishers to come to Medium and publish there.

01:03:49 ◼   ► We spoke about Backchannel earlier in the show.

01:03:52 ◼   ► That is Steven Levy's Medium blog,

01:03:55 ◼   ► which only exists on Medium, right?

01:03:57 ◼   ► Like that is where it is.

01:03:59 ◼   ► And Medium have been trying to convince companies

01:04:01 ◼   ► to cross post and create original content to put there.

01:04:06 ◼   ► And there's even, I wish I could remember where this was,

01:04:10 ◼   ► but I saw a link of somebody, a publisher,

01:04:13 ◼   ► who started their new Medium thing.

01:04:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, on the very day. - Of the day.

01:04:19 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:04:20 ◼   ► - So this is a case of left hand not knowing

01:04:23 ◼   ► what right hand is doing, right?

01:04:24 ◼   ► Because obviously the team who is trying to encourage content

01:04:28 ◼   ► was still encouraging content,

01:04:30 ◼   ► not knowing that they were about to lose their jobs.

01:04:32 ◼   ► - Yes. - That's really,

01:04:34 ◼   ► that's really rough. - Rough, really rough.

01:04:36 ◼   ► So I wanted to talk about this because

01:04:38 ◼   ► there are some threads here which I'm seeing

01:04:41 ◼   ► running through a few different places.

01:04:43 ◼   ► One of them was, like a couple of months ago,

01:04:47 ◼   ► I saw a piece on Daring Fireball,

01:04:49 ◼   ► that was about, it was linked to,

01:04:54 ◼   ► John was linking to something that Andy Bio wrote,

01:04:57 ◼   ► where he's talking about how indie blogging

01:05:00 ◼   ► seems to be changing, like there isn't as much

01:05:03 ◼   ► focus put on it anymore, and that maybe people

01:05:05 ◼   ► are moving more towards social networks

01:05:07 ◼   ► to kind of get their messages across.

01:05:09 ◼   ► But Andy makes the case for independent blogging

01:05:11 ◼   ► and writing, because like nobody can shut him down,

01:05:15 ◼   ► nobody can control what he says, nobody can control

01:05:17 ◼   ► the URLs that he uses, like it's his place

01:05:20 ◼   ► to do whatever he wants in.

01:05:21 ◼   ► And it seems that more people these days

01:05:25 ◼   ► are moving to different channels,

01:05:28 ◼   ► different networks to share their stuff.

01:05:30 ◼   ► So I've been thinking about this

01:05:32 ◼   ► and I have a question for you both.

01:05:34 ◼   ► Is there less independent blogging now

01:05:39 ◼   ► because frankly it's becoming harder and harder

01:05:43 ◼   ► to make money in that world,

01:05:45 ◼   ► you know, with a lot of the tough web ad stuff that exists,

01:05:50 ◼   ► which maybe the two of you can speak to a little bit

01:05:52 ◼   ► if you want, I don't know if you want to.

01:05:54 ◼   ► And is it because it's getting harder

01:05:57 ◼   ► to make a living doing this,

01:05:59 ◼   ► that people are pushing their content towards platforms

01:06:02 ◼   ► like Twitter and Medium and maybe YouTube and podcasts,

01:06:06 ◼   ► because you're able to maybe get your name out there,

01:06:10 ◼   ► you're able to be on social networks,

01:06:12 ◼   ► which are maybe at least likely to get you more fame

01:06:15 ◼   ► or notoriety where it might not be able to secure you

01:06:18 ◼   ► as much money, especially in the case of the social networks?

01:06:21 ◼   ► - It's a very complex question

01:06:23 ◼   ► that requires a very complex answer.

01:06:25 ◼   ► First of all, I believe there's been a shift

01:06:27 ◼   ► from bloggers to vloggers.

01:06:30 ◼   ► So a lot of people are now on YouTube.

01:06:32 ◼   ► A lot of people that 10 years ago

01:06:34 ◼   ► would have probably written something,

01:06:36 ◼   ► now they're shooting a video about it.

01:06:38 ◼   ► The second part of my answer is,

01:06:41 ◼   ► I think social networks and social platforms like Twitter, Facebook and Medium to an extent,

01:06:47 ◼   ► they have been great equalizers.

01:06:50 ◼   ► They have provided millions of people with an easy way to write, to share content, whether

01:06:57 ◼   ► it's a video, a picture or text.

01:07:01 ◼   ► They have succeeded because of the easy way to share or just the easier way to build a

01:07:08 ◼   ► social graph and to find your friends or an audience. But I think there's a... we

01:07:15 ◼   ► gotta differentiate between blogging as a job and blogging as a technology. I

01:07:23 ◼   ► think there's fewer people maybe trying to pursue indie blogging as a job but I

01:07:32 ◼   ► think the technology is of course still around. It hasn't gone anywhere. In fact

01:07:37 ◼   ► We have better tools today than ever.

01:07:39 ◼   ► Whether it's setting up your own server is easy, today is easier today,

01:07:44 ◼   ► WordPress is better than ever, and there's all kinds of other tools you can use for blogging.

01:07:50 ◼   ► I do believe there's...

01:07:54 ◼   ► Part of it is a perception issue, that fewer people are trying to make money by writing online.

01:08:00 ◼   ► But maybe it's also a trend, maybe it's also objectively true,

01:08:04 ◼   ► that fewer people are trying to monetize indie blogging. And I believe part of the problem there is the simple, you know,

01:08:12 ◼   ► simple economics. There's just more supply than demand.

01:08:17 ◼   ► So we see some people shifting to YouTube, other people shifting to other type of online careers.

01:08:25 ◼   ► I still believe

01:08:29 ◼   ► it is necessary if you want to make

01:08:33 ◼   ► writing, so blogging, your job, it is an utmost necessity that you own your stuff,

01:08:42 ◼   ► that you don't cede control of the technology to other people, which is also

01:08:49 ◼   ► the reason why I have been in the news, if you will, lately, because of...

01:08:54 ◼   ► I was wondering if you were going to bring this up.

01:08:56 ◼   ► I have been on the New York Times because of my decision to stop using Google AMP.

01:09:05 ◼   ► Mr. Vitici. I'm sorry we didn't call you Mr. at the beginning.

01:09:08 ◼   ► Yeah, talk to my assistant to schedule our next recording.

01:09:12 ◼   ► This is the reason why I decided to remove Google AMP support for Mac stories.

01:09:18 ◼   ► I didn't like the way that Google was rewriting my links in Google search.

01:09:22 ◼   ► So there's a whole discussion to be made about controlling technology and your stuff and your content, use open formats.

01:09:30 ◼   ► But to answer your question, Myke, I think technologically indie blogging is still around and better than ever.

01:09:39 ◼   ► Economically, there's been a lot of changes that contribute to the different landscape that we have today.

01:09:47 ◼   ► have today. So do you think though that people are moving more towards networks

01:09:52 ◼   ► though, like in general? Yes, because I think we live in a more diversified world

01:09:58 ◼   ► now than 10 years ago. I think it's easier for a kid in China to try to find

01:10:05 ◼   ► an audience on a network that is allowed through the firewall. I think it's easier

01:10:09 ◼   ► for a teenager to post some thoughts on Twitter or Facebook. I think it's easier

01:10:12 ◼   ► for someone to go viral using YouTube and Facebook.

01:10:17 ◼   ► Or taking a screenshot of notes and posting it on Instagram.

01:10:19 ◼   ► Exactly. I think these networks, they remove a lot of barriers

01:10:23 ◼   ► because there is a barrier. There is an audience barrier,

01:10:28 ◼   ► there is a technological barrier to setting up a blog, setting up your own domain,

01:10:32 ◼   ► which is why I believe we got to differentiate between doing this just to share

01:10:37 ◼   ► and doing this to make a living.

01:10:40 ◼   ► The technology is the same, the goal and the time that you gotta sink into this thing is profoundly different.

01:10:48 ◼   ► Yeah, you know, I've been blogging at 512 pixels for over 8 years now.

01:10:55 ◼   ► It's a really long time.

01:10:58 ◼   ► And so I've seen some of this take place over the arc of my own blogging career, if you want to call it that.

01:11:09 ◼   ► where I tried really hard, like in like 2010 and 2011,

01:11:13 ◼   ► I really put my head down and like tried to see

01:11:16 ◼   ► if I could make five-fold pixels into a job.

01:11:18 ◼   ► And the answer then was no, that I couldn't do it.

01:11:23 ◼   ► And honestly, the answer today still is no,

01:11:26 ◼   ► that five-fold pixels, it makes money.

01:11:29 ◼   ► Some months it makes better money than others.

01:11:32 ◼   ► But it's not a job.

01:11:35 ◼   ► Relay FM is my job.

01:11:36 ◼   ► Relay FM is what pays my mortgage

01:11:39 ◼   ► and keeps food on my table and keeps my kids in jackets.

01:11:42 ◼   ► - How many jackets, Tony?

01:11:44 ◼   ► - They grow so fast.

01:11:46 ◼   ► - Okay.

01:11:46 ◼   ► - I feel like there's a bigger discussion

01:11:48 ◼   ► to be had about jackets.

01:11:50 ◼   ► But maybe let's save it for another time.

01:11:53 ◼   ► I feel like you feel strongly about jackets.

01:11:57 ◼   ► - We decided to buy new coats for everyone,

01:11:59 ◼   ► so it's on my mind.

01:12:00 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:12:03 ◼   ► And so I think, so like for me,

01:12:06 ◼   ► like the way 512Pixels makes money

01:12:08 ◼   ► is really simple. I have a sidebar ad run from a third-party company who I've

01:12:12 ◼   ► partnered with like five years now and it doesn't make much money. It makes

01:12:17 ◼   ► enough to cover the hosting. Like the site with just the sidebar ad for me

01:12:21 ◼   ► breaks even and any money that I make each month is either through RSS ads

01:12:28 ◼   ► which have risen and fallen in popularity over the time I've been doing

01:12:33 ◼   ► them they're doing okay right now but for I think overall that that business

01:12:38 ◼   ► model is hurting and they get a lot of people who have blogs who sell our set

01:12:41 ◼   ► sponsorships are struggling with that I make money the other ways like

01:12:46 ◼   ► affiliate links on Amazon like if you click that link under my video to buy

01:12:50 ◼   ► the adorable Macintosh Apple watch stand I'll get a cut of that like I'm not

01:12:54 ◼   ► ashamed of that whatever strip my coat off that's and that's so ethically wrong

01:13:00 ◼   ► Yeah, I'm trying to boost the sales of wow. You should you should be ashamed of yourself

01:13:05 ◼   ► How can you buy jackets with that dirty money?

01:13:09 ◼   ► Money on your children's shoulders, man

01:13:13 ◼   ► yeah, so

01:13:16 ◼   ► So for me five little pixels is a part of of my

01:13:21 ◼   ► Business it's a part of my income, but it's not

01:13:24 ◼   ► The time I put into it. Honestly if I were to be brutally honest is not worth the money I make from it

01:13:29 ◼   ► I do it because I love it and I do it because it's a place for me to get thoughts into the world.

01:13:34 ◼   ► But blogging for me is not the business that it is for other people.

01:13:38 ◼   ► It's still like a, and again, and I don't mean this in a disparaging way in any sense,

01:13:42 ◼   ► but it still has remained more of like a hobby type project for you.

01:13:46 ◼   ► Yeah, right. Like I said, if you look at the hours I spend during the work week,

01:13:50 ◼   ► the vast majority are relay and 512 is a fun distraction from that. Now, what I've done

01:13:57 ◼   ► over the last year is move the 5 pixels brand and expand it into YouTube.

01:14:03 ◼   ► And for all the reasons you guys just talked about, right, that there's an audience there

01:14:07 ◼   ► that my content really works well on video, that I can write about stuff, but if I can

01:14:11 ◼   ► show people and I can be funny on video and I can make things that are interesting to

01:14:15 ◼   ► watch, then they do well.

01:14:17 ◼   ► And the YouTube channel does do well.

01:14:19 ◼   ► And it, you know, again, it's not paying a lot of bills, but the YouTube channel does

01:14:25 ◼   ► make money.

01:14:26 ◼   ► It's not a lot.

01:14:27 ◼   ► to make money on YouTube unless you're enormous,

01:14:29 ◼   ► but it's making some, and it's making enough for me

01:14:31 ◼   ► to justify doing it to an extent.

01:14:34 ◼   ► And I think all of that stuff,

01:14:37 ◼   ► like if someone who's been doing it for eight years,

01:14:39 ◼   ► like Myke and I own an extremely successful

01:14:42 ◼   ► podcast business, which we're gonna talk about in a second,

01:14:44 ◼   ► like someone who's been doing it this long

01:14:46 ◼   ► who has an audience, 512's readership is bigger than ever.

01:14:49 ◼   ► Like 2016 was the most pages I've done ever in a year.

01:14:53 ◼   ► I've got more RSS subscribers than ever.

01:14:55 ◼   ► it's harder than ever to make money at it.

01:14:58 ◼   ► And I think that hurts independent blogging

01:15:01 ◼   ► if you look at independent blogging as a way, as a job.

01:15:05 ◼   ► And I think, I honestly think that's the wrong way

01:15:07 ◼   ► to look at it.

01:15:08 ◼   ► There are people who can do that, right?

01:15:09 ◼   ► There's people like Hotkey and Gruber who,

01:15:12 ◼   ► and Jason, Snell, who blog and do podcasts for a living.

01:15:17 ◼   ► But it started as writing, it started as a blog.

01:15:20 ◼   ► I think that window is, I think that time has passed.

01:15:23 ◼   ► I think that it's really hard to make that work now.

01:15:26 ◼   ► But I'd agree with you Federico,

01:15:29 ◼   ► that independent blogging in the sense of

01:15:31 ◼   ► I'm really interested in something

01:15:33 ◼   ► and I just wanna share it with the world,

01:15:34 ◼   ► that that is richer than ever.

01:15:36 ◼   ► And if you have niche content, like the pen addict,

01:15:39 ◼   ► Brad Dowdy has made a career for himself

01:15:43 ◼   ► in the pen space and with his company, NotCo.

01:15:46 ◼   ► - Million page views a month.

01:15:48 ◼   ► I just have to throw that in.

01:15:49 ◼   ► - That's humongous, it's crazy.

01:15:53 ◼   ► I have a niche in, it's much smaller than pens and paper,

01:15:57 ◼   ► but I've carved a niche out for myself

01:15:58 ◼   ► in the Apple historian realm.

01:16:00 ◼   ► And you know that limits the size of 512.

01:16:02 ◼   ► 512 is bigger than ever, but I think it could be bigger

01:16:05 ◼   ► if I were broader.

01:16:06 ◼   ► And I just don't want to be broader, I don't have to be.

01:16:08 ◼   ► So I talk about esoteric things,

01:16:10 ◼   ► and the people who are interested in that love it,

01:16:11 ◼   ► and people who aren't interested in it

01:16:12 ◼   ► quit reading me years ago, and that's fine.

01:16:14 ◼   ► You can find your spot, you can find what you're good at,

01:16:17 ◼   ► you can hone your skill.

01:16:18 ◼   ► But I think if you expect it to make a business out of it,

01:16:21 ◼   ► that's really hard.

01:16:22 ◼   ► Like that has nothing to do with the platform, right?

01:16:24 ◼   ► Like you can be on WordPress, you can own it,

01:16:27 ◼   ► which is what I like owning my content,

01:16:29 ◼   ► like that I can have a database of all my stuff.

01:16:32 ◼   ► But you know if that stuff is scary or like difficult

01:16:35 ◼   ► or like too expensive, like there's lots of good

01:16:38 ◼   ► hosted options and you can go do it.

01:16:39 ◼   ► Like just go start writing, go start something.

01:16:41 ◼   ► And that, I agree with you Federico, is easier than ever

01:16:44 ◼   ► and the tools are better than ever.

01:16:46 ◼   ► And I think like as a thing, blogging is fine.

01:16:49 ◼   ► - YouTube is an interesting example

01:16:52 ◼   ► is no matter how big you are with YouTube, there is money there immediately. Monetisation

01:17:03 ◼   ► is built into the analytics. The promise of money is there immediately. All you need to

01:17:12 ◼   ► do is get the views and that isn't the case with other types of independent stuff. So

01:17:19 ◼   ► I think that's one of the reasons that YouTube is starting to win out, right?

01:17:22 ◼   ► Like Federico said, and I agree that there seems to be more people vlogging than blogging,

01:17:26 ◼   ► right?

01:17:27 ◼   ► That seems to be the thing that's happening now is because if what you're looking to do

01:17:30 ◼   ► is try and make some money from your side project, then of course you're going to consider

01:17:34 ◼   ► the platform that has monetization built in a standard for everyone.

01:17:38 ◼   ► It's available to everyone.

01:17:40 ◼   ► All they need to do is get the views on their videos.

01:17:42 ◼   ► Yeah, just use Clickbait like Myke.

01:17:45 ◼   ► Yeah, I love it.

01:17:46 ◼   ► I'm all about it and I bait all of my videos.

01:17:50 ◼   ► Clickbait is a thing I stand by that Casey Neistat said

01:17:55 ◼   ► about clickbait, which is that it's enticing but not false.

01:18:00 ◼   ► - Yeah, I'm down with that.

01:18:01 ◼   ► And I think it's interesting too,

01:18:02 ◼   ► I do wanna talk about Relay and talk about the network effect

01:18:06 ◼   ► but the shift from writing to video,

01:18:09 ◼   ► like video is hard, at least it is for me,

01:18:11 ◼   ► and part of that is that I have really high standards

01:18:14 ◼   ► for myself, like I'm not one,

01:18:17 ◼   ► I can't just sit down in front of a camera and just talk.

01:18:19 ◼   ► Anything that I produce is like hours of me

01:18:22 ◼   ► saying the same thing over and over

01:18:23 ◼   ► and picking the one time I said it that I like.

01:18:25 ◼   ► - You're not one of these people

01:18:27 ◼   ► that just walks around with their iPhone in the street,

01:18:28 ◼   ► right, is that what you're saying?

01:18:29 ◼   ► - No, I wanna be one of those.

01:18:30 ◼   ► - No, just Kraton's.

01:18:32 ◼   ► - Because I don't have that gift,

01:18:33 ◼   ► I don't have that skill set.

01:18:35 ◼   ► I'm awkward and not funny

01:18:36 ◼   ► and I have to work to be unawkward and funny.

01:18:38 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:18:40 ◼   ► But so many people, so many people are really good at that

01:18:44 ◼   ► And so there's monetization,

01:18:45 ◼   ► and some people just find that really comfortable.

01:18:47 ◼   ► Where a lot of people find writing really difficult.

01:18:49 ◼   ► I mean, Myke, you and I are different in this way,

01:18:51 ◼   ► where I enjoy writing, I like to think I'm good at it,

01:18:55 ◼   ► I like to think that I've improved.

01:18:57 ◼   ► But the way that I solve problems,

01:18:58 ◼   ► the way that I think about things is I write them out.

01:19:00 ◼   ► And I don't process verbally very well.

01:19:04 ◼   ► That's why I repeat myself on podcasts endlessly.

01:19:07 ◼   ► I need to write it out first to think about it.

01:19:10 ◼   ► And so for me, blogging was a better fit.

01:19:13 ◼   ► But what's great about all this stuff is there are,

01:19:16 ◼   ► there's all these different channels, right?

01:19:17 ◼   ► And if Medium can get their act together,

01:19:20 ◼   ► and I hope they can, and they can figure out a way

01:19:23 ◼   ► to let people make money,

01:19:25 ◼   ► and be successful, then that's great.

01:19:29 ◼   ► And blogging needs that.

01:19:30 ◼   ► Right now, if you want some back blogging thing,

01:19:33 ◼   ► you have to open Patreon.

01:19:34 ◼   ► And your number's a publican, that's weird.

01:19:36 ◼   ► But if they can create a YouTube-like system for writing,

01:19:42 ◼   ► That's great, thumbs up, way to go medium, I hope someone can make that work because

01:19:46 ◼   ► blogging needs that.

01:19:48 ◼   ► But it's just a very different approach than how it's traditionally been done.

01:19:52 ◼   ► So I just want to, before we wrap up, I want to touch on something, which is right, we're

01:19:56 ◼   ► talking about people should be independent and stuff, and we own a company where people

01:20:02 ◼   ► produce content for us, right?

01:20:05 ◼   ► Which is strange, because the people that have their shows on our network, they are

01:20:10 ◼   ► part of relay FM. But my kind of feeling on this is that we do our very best to give everybody

01:20:18 ◼   ► the adequate amount of independence that they need, right, to get their stuff done. We work

01:20:23 ◼   ► with people to make all of our stuff better. But, you know, really, I mean, this is just

01:20:28 ◼   ► something we talk about with everyone. If they want to go, if a show wants to leave,

01:20:32 ◼   ► then we'll do everything we can to help people leave. Like, the content that our hosts produce

01:20:38 ◼   ► is their content. We just give them the tools and the place and the processes underlying

01:20:46 ◼   ► it all to make it happen. Is that fair, Steven, to say?

01:20:51 ◼   ► It is. I think what we've tried to do is create an environment and create a set of tools for

01:20:57 ◼   ► people to do their own thing. Sometimes we get questions about a topic on a show or a

01:21:03 ◼   ► sponsor wants to know what a show is going to be about. The truthful answer is we don't

01:21:07 ◼   ► know because we don't exercise editorial control and we have some some

01:21:10 ◼   ► guidelines right like you can't say we have a naughty word list I don't say

01:21:14 ◼   ► those words are you gonna get bleeped or knocked out of the master feed but like

01:21:17 ◼   ► even then like that's that's all we've got we we I think have created a space

01:21:25 ◼   ► where people can come in and be creative and like try things and talk about

01:21:29 ◼   ► things they're interested in and use our CMS and use our tools and have access to

01:21:35 ◼   ► our designer and access to our Slack.

01:21:37 ◼   ► And for most of the shows, we can monetize them.

01:21:43 ◼   ► And we sell ads, you know, Myke, you and I do that

01:21:46 ◼   ► for the hosts, they get a cut, we get a cut.

01:21:49 ◼   ► And I think it's been really successful.

01:21:54 ◼   ► We haven't had a show leave, we've had shows turn over

01:21:56 ◼   ► and shows come to an end and stuff,

01:21:57 ◼   ► but we've never had anyone leave.

01:21:59 ◼   ► And I'm sure that will happen one day.

01:22:01 ◼   ► And I agree with you, we will do everything we can

01:22:04 ◼   ► to give that person access to their content,

01:22:07 ◼   ► to help them land on their feet wherever they end up

01:22:09 ◼   ► if they want our help.

01:22:10 ◼   ► Because at the end of the day,

01:22:13 ◼   ► that content, it's their work, right?

01:22:19 ◼   ► I'm not on, you aren't on our 25 shows.

01:22:22 ◼   ► It's people doing their own outlines,

01:22:25 ◼   ► doing their own research, doing their own recording,

01:22:27 ◼   ► using our editors or doing their own editing.

01:22:31 ◼   ► we've just created a framework for people to create within.

01:22:35 ◼   ► And I remember when we first started Relay,

01:22:38 ◼   ► our very first conversations were like,

01:22:40 ◼   ► that's what we wanted to build.

01:22:42 ◼   ► We wanted to build a company, we wanted to build a network,

01:22:45 ◼   ► and we wanted to have jobs,

01:22:46 ◼   ► but we wanted to really create a space

01:22:49 ◼   ► for people to work within.

01:22:50 ◼   ► And that is something that I think is a little unusual

01:22:55 ◼   ► in podcasting, where a lot of networks

01:22:59 ◼   ► have complete editorial control over their shows.

01:23:03 ◼   ► It's a very different business, right,

01:23:04 ◼   ► if you're doing NPR-style stuff,

01:23:06 ◼   ► like Gimlet or Slate or those people.

01:23:09 ◼   ► Totally different business model, not any better,

01:23:11 ◼   ► not any worse than ours, just different.

01:23:14 ◼   ► But this is how we've chosen to do it,

01:23:15 ◼   ► because at the heart of it, at the end of the day,

01:23:18 ◼   ► you and I, Myke, and Federico and Jason and everyone else,

01:23:21 ◼   ► we're all creators, we all want to make stuff.

01:23:24 ◼   ► You and I have a podcast network,

01:23:26 ◼   ► so you and I can make podcasts, right?

01:23:29 ◼   ► We needed a place to put our stuff,

01:23:31 ◼   ► and we've been able to scale it up to other people.

01:23:34 ◼   ► And so we give them the tools that we want to have,

01:23:37 ◼   ► and we give them the freedom that we want to have,

01:23:39 ◼   ► and I think it's been, I think it's worked out really well.

01:23:44 ◼   ► - And one last thing before we do wrap up,

01:23:46 ◼   ► 'cause I guess it is related to this topic, I think,

01:23:49 ◼   ► is that Manton Reese is currently working

01:23:53 ◼   ► on a Kickstarter campaign to generate,

01:23:57 ◼   ► I find it's hard to explain,

01:23:58 ◼   ► it's like Twitter hosted somewhere else or something? Can you help me with that?

01:24:05 ◼   ► Because I've backed this project because I like what he's trying to do but I'm

01:24:10 ◼   ► struggling to understand the product that he's making.

01:24:14 ◼   ► Yeah so it's and I hope I'm fair in my representation because it is a little

01:24:20 ◼   ► complicated. Microdot blog is going to be a set of tools so it does have a

01:24:25 ◼   ► timeline like Twitter but it's based on RSS so if you don't want to open the app

01:24:31 ◼   ► and you just want to see everything Federico writes on his microblog then

01:24:35 ◼   ► you can just like subscribe to it in your RSS reader and just get it there

01:24:40 ◼   ► and never worry about being a social network so you can use it as like a

01:24:43 ◼   ► blogging platform or you can use it as a as a social network I think there's also

01:24:49 ◼   ► like going to be like WordPress plugins so you can like move content from your

01:24:54 ◼   ► your actual blog to the social network.

01:24:57 ◼   ► It's a couple different things,

01:24:59 ◼   ► but I think the heart of it is you own your content.

01:25:02 ◼   ► I have a recurring task in Todoist every six months

01:25:06 ◼   ► to download my Twitter archive,

01:25:07 ◼   ► because one day we're gonna wake up

01:25:08 ◼   ► and Twitter's gonna be gone, just gone.

01:25:11 ◼   ► And I would like my 10 years of talking about silly things,

01:25:15 ◼   ► and so I download that every once in a while.

01:25:18 ◼   ► Well, with this, you would have access to your stuff

01:25:20 ◼   ► and you would be able to export it

01:25:24 ◼   ► use it freely and openly. I think that he has a little bit of work to do to really

01:25:29 ◼   ► flesh that out in the way that he explains it. The Kickstarter is about the

01:25:32 ◼   ► book about independent blogging. Like, building the thing is sort of

01:25:37 ◼   ► secondary to the Kickstarter project and I fully expect in talking to him and I

01:25:44 ◼   ► fully expect that we will see more details about the the platform very soon.

01:25:52 ◼   ► Like I it's totally real like there are people who have seen it there people who've been using it as my understanding like

01:25:58 ◼   ► And I think that I think he'll do a clearer job explaining it

01:26:04 ◼   ► but um, but I think the heart of it is you own your your content and

01:26:09 ◼   ► You instead of having a centralized social network you can

01:26:14 ◼   ► Put content into the system from from numerous places

01:26:17 ◼   ► you can use the first party app or you can use something else because it's all API based and

01:26:21 ◼   ► You know so I could have you know, theoretically my own blog and just write little things and it gets posted here automatically. So

01:26:28 ◼   ► I'm excited by it. I think that

01:26:31 ◼   ► The world I think at least our world that's sort of nerdy world like

01:26:36 ◼   ► we sort of exist with Twitter as the water cooler and that's really fragile and

01:26:42 ◼   ► I don't think Twitter will last at least in its current form. I think there will be a time where

01:26:48 ◼   ► Like all this stuff that the three of us have had possible in our career because of Twitter like that won't be available to people

01:26:53 ◼   ► anymore because Twitter will be drastically different or be gone and

01:26:57 ◼   ► I don't think Facebook's the answer. I don't think I don't think people necessarily want all their other stuff mixed in

01:27:03 ◼   ► So maybe this is it. I hope it is. I

01:27:05 ◼   ► hope that there's an opportunity for

01:27:08 ◼   ► This sort of community that we have on Twitter to either move or like regenerate in new ways new interesting ways

01:27:16 ◼   ► somewhere else and I think man is onto something with that. Yeah, I think people should go check it out

01:27:21 ◼   ► There'll be a link in our show notes, which of course you can find today over at relay.fm/connecting/124

01:27:26 ◼   ► Thank you so much for

01:27:29 ◼   ► Listening to this week's show if you want to find out more about my lovely co-hosts

01:27:35 ◼   ► You should go to their independent blogging websites like 512 pixels dotnet for Steven and Mac stories dotnet for Federico

01:27:42 ◼   ► Federico's on Twitter

01:27:43 ◼   ► is out for tichy, Stephen is out at ISMH and I am at imyke, I M Y K E. Whilst those

01:27:49 ◼   ► guys were talking about their real strengths around blogging, of course you can go to michaelsright.com

01:27:54 ◼   ► for all of the latest sticker news that you've been hankering for. I'm sure that there's

01:28:00 ◼   ► a real good audience for me there. Thanks again to Pingda Ministry Supply in Blue Apron

01:28:06 ◼   ► for supporting this week's show. Thank you for listening. And maybe listen too, who knows?

01:28:10 ◼   ► We'll be back next time.

01:28:11 ◼   ► Until then, say goodbye, guys.

01:28:13 ◼   ► - Adios, darche.

01:28:14 ◼   ► - Adios.