Connected

00:00:00 ◼   ► [Music]

00:00:06 ◼   ► From Relay FM, this is Connected, episode 152. Today's show is brought to you by Eero,

00:00:12 ◼   ► Mac Weldon, and FreshBooks. My name is Myke Hurley. I am joined by Steven Hackett. Ciao, Steven Hackett.

00:00:18 ◼   ► Um, that's very confusing. Hello. Hi.

00:00:21 ◼   ► And howdy, Federico Vittucci. How are y'all today?

00:00:24 ◼   ► I am well and I kind of hate you both because the past week has been basically

00:00:30 ◼   ► characterized by people on Twitter sending me tweets with emoji of turtles

00:00:36 ◼   ► in groups of many turtles in the same message.

00:00:40 ◼   ► At least you're still alive Federico.

00:00:42 ◼   ► I'm still alive and I missed you both but I'm still opening Twitter and you know

00:00:47 ◼   ► there's folks who are listening now to the old episode so I'm still getting the turtles on Twitter.

00:00:53 ◼   ► I hope that there is a possibility that you will get them forever.

00:00:55 ◼   ► Like, my hope is that people will listen to the show in like a year time

00:00:59 ◼   ► and they will send you 140 turtles and you have no idea why.

00:01:03 ◼   ► And you know, the beautiful part is that the, you know,

00:01:07 ◼   ► the turtles will still be alive a year from now because they live forever.

00:01:11 ◼   ► So it's a beautiful message.

00:01:13 ◼   ► Are we doing this again?

00:01:14 ◼   ► This is what we're doing again.

00:01:16 ◼   ► It's a beautiful message.

00:01:18 ◼   ► It's a beautiful message.

00:01:19 ◼   ► It's inspirational, really.

00:01:21 ◼   ► It is, people just want you to live forever. Yeah, yeah, like a turtle. So thank you.

00:01:26 ◼   ► Appreciate it. Yeah. Can we do follow up now? Oh yeah. Yes we can. Let's do

00:01:32 ◼   ► follow up. Yes, Kirsten wrote in about this whole Face ID camera thing.

00:01:38 ◼   ► We spoke last week about, you know, are there issues around head-worn clothing

00:01:44 ◼   ► and Kirsten wrote in this really interesting story I didn't know about

00:01:49 ◼   ► but in 1993 Sony had to recall a camera that had a night vision mode so used

00:01:56 ◼   ► infrared technology basically to take pictures in the dark but when used in

00:02:02 ◼   ► daylight infrared could be used to see through like dark colored clothing and

00:02:09 ◼   ► if it were thin and wet say like a swimsuit it really worked pretty well

00:02:13 ◼   ► and so all of a sudden people were taking pictures of other people in

00:02:16 ◼   ► swimsuits and it was if they were wearing nothing. Obviously that's not not good.

00:02:21 ◼   ► People were being photographed in ways they did not approve of and Sony had to

00:02:26 ◼   ► recall a bunch of these cameras because this infrared had the ability to see

00:02:31 ◼   ► through fabric and under certain circumstances. So it's interesting in the

00:02:35 ◼   ► conversation we've been having about this has got to be more than just a

00:02:38 ◼   ► selfie camera it has to have you know some other type of sensing along with it

00:02:43 ◼   ► and there could be a real downside to that which I hadn't really considered I

00:02:47 ◼   ► hadn't come across anything like this before so super interesting email so thank you

00:02:51 ◼   ► for sending it in Christian. I'm gonna provide some some real-time follow-up on the

00:02:54 ◼   ► follow-up because I remember this and I can't work out why I would have

00:02:58 ◼   ► remembered it if it was in 1993 because it wasn't in 1993 it was in 1998 and

00:03:04 ◼   ► Sony did this because I remember this happening and in 1993 I was five years

00:03:08 ◼   ► old so I wouldn't remember it but yeah this was something that they called the

00:03:11 ◼   ► night shot camera and I have an article from Wired and I've got to say to Wired, Federico

00:03:17 ◼   ► you'll like this, they have an article which is dated 14th August 1998 available on their

00:03:26 ◼   ► website. That is impressive. That is very impressive that they're keeping this running.

00:03:33 ◼   ► So there you go, it's an article called "See You See Me" which is hilarious and it's about

00:03:37 ◼   ► the Sony Night Shot camera, which allowed people to see through, like, almost like X-ray

00:03:43 ◼   ► vision. I think that's wild. And this is why...

00:03:48 ◼   ► It's like the TSA camera.

00:03:49 ◼   ► Yeah. I mean, look, this is, I assume, something that just like will happen with this type

00:03:55 ◼   ► of technology. So I assume if Apple add an infrared camera, like we won't be able to

00:03:59 ◼   ► use it on our iPhone to take in, like, dark in the night photos if it can do this. Like

00:04:04 ◼   ► this that would be less than ideal, I think.

00:04:07 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, it's not great.

00:04:11 ◼   ► So, but thanks for correcting the follow up.

00:04:13 ◼   ► So we didn't have to have double follow up inception.

00:04:15 ◼   ► - We may not have done it in time though.

00:04:18 ◼   ► - It's true, someone's already emailed me.

00:04:21 ◼   ► Lots of people have written in complaining

00:04:23 ◼   ► about the blue location bar on iOS 11.

00:04:27 ◼   ► So Federica, you spoke about this a couple weeks ago

00:04:29 ◼   ► where if an app is using your location in the background,

00:04:33 ◼   ► that bar is consistently there and it's a lot more forceful than an iOS 10. So we

00:04:41 ◼   ► got email from Andrew that really jumped out at me who said he works on the road

00:04:44 ◼   ► so he's doing like mobile tech repair and tech service so he's just driving

00:04:48 ◼   ► all the time between clients and he uses an app to track his location and mileage

00:04:52 ◼   ► we can turn it in for tax reasons right you had turn in your mileage and this

00:04:57 ◼   ► bar is like driving him nuts because it's it's always there if you tap the

00:05:02 ◼   ► accidentally which is easy to do because at the top of the screen it takes you

00:05:05 ◼   ► into the app and Andrew suggested that maybe Apple should offer users a way to

00:05:12 ◼   ► disable this so the default is on so to leave the shame bar there but hey if

00:05:18 ◼   ► you're a user and you know you're doing this and you get something that you want

00:05:21 ◼   ► there's an option to disable it I think that's totally fair what do you think

00:05:25 ◼   ► yeah yeah I agree especially because Apple is doing this for their own system

00:05:30 ◼   ► features. So if you go into location services and you tap into the system

00:05:34 ◼   ► services which is kind of buried into the settings there's a toggle to disable

00:05:38 ◼   ► showing the location icon for the Apple system location stuff and the reasoning

00:05:44 ◼   ► is it's our stuff we know what we're doing there's no need to show the icon

00:05:48 ◼   ► so if you want you can disable that and I think Andrew is right and we mentioned

00:05:53 ◼   ► this a few weeks ago if you know what you're doing there should be an option

00:05:58 ◼   ► in the location setting for an individual app to say disable the

00:06:04 ◼   ► location bar. Basically I know what I'm doing, you don't need to occupy

00:06:10 ◼   ► the top section of my user interface every single time the app is fired up in

00:06:16 ◼   ► the background because I know. So just show me the location icon in the status

00:06:20 ◼   ► bar and that's okay. The default should be opt-out so the

00:06:25 ◼   ► The location bar should be shown by default.

00:06:29 ◼   ► I think that's the right thing to do,

00:06:30 ◼   ► especially for users upgrading from iOS 10 to 11.

00:06:34 ◼   ► But I agree, there should be a toggle to disable that.

00:06:36 ◼   ► - I've gotta say, that logic of, you know,

00:06:39 ◼   ► you can have a switch to turn it off for Apple services

00:06:41 ◼   ► because Apple knows what they're doing,

00:06:43 ◼   ► that is so horrifically flawed on so many levels for me.

00:06:48 ◼   ► Because I don't know what they're doing.

00:06:51 ◼   ► Right, like realistically,

00:06:54 ◼   ► Apple have as much potential to track me

00:06:57 ◼   ► as any other company and use that data

00:07:00 ◼   ► for whatever they wanna use it for.

00:07:01 ◼   ► Like I know that we believe and we feel

00:07:03 ◼   ► that Apple is a company that doesn't do this stuff,

00:07:06 ◼   ► but priorities change, right?

00:07:08 ◼   ► And I really don't like the idea that like,

00:07:10 ◼   ► oh, we can be given that toggle

00:07:14 ◼   ► because our Apple look after us,

00:07:16 ◼   ► but not for others because all those companies,

00:07:18 ◼   ► they're just evil companies, right?

00:07:21 ◼   ► Like I really don't like that.

00:07:22 ◼   ► I think it should be possible that there should be a part of the settings and location settings

00:07:27 ◼   ► for you to be able to disable anything, including Apple's system location services, or for whatever apps Apple wants to track it with.

00:07:34 ◼   ► You can disable them individually, but it's just you can also disable...

00:07:39 ◼   ► No, disable the bar.

00:07:41 ◼   ► Uh huh, okay.

00:07:42 ◼   ► To disable having the bar there.

00:07:44 ◼   ► there. It's funny, I've been seeing people sharing screenshots of stuff and I see the

00:07:50 ◼   ► blue bar and it says "Tile is tracking your location." This is going to really affect

00:07:56 ◼   ► companies like that. Tile and Tracker and stuff like that. I wonder if something like

00:08:01 ◼   ► if I'm going to get frustrated with my Canary. I haven't put iOS 11 on my iPhone. I don't

00:08:06 ◼   ► know if it's going to start popping up with the blue bar saying that Canary is tracking

00:08:10 ◼   ► my location because I've told it it can so it can set an onset like if this is

00:08:14 ◼   ► gonna be a thing that's popping up all the time is I think it's gonna make a

00:08:17 ◼   ► lot of changes to the way that people use their phones honestly I think for

00:08:21 ◼   ► the worse in a lot of cases like I know that there's gonna be stuff that's

00:08:24 ◼   ► popping up and I'm gonna be like oh man I'm pleased to know about this because I

00:08:28 ◼   ► don't want this here but there's gonna be stuff that I'm gonna see every single

00:08:32 ◼   ► day and I'm gonna be like I get it like I've asked this to happen I would really

00:08:37 ◼   ► hope that they add the ability for me to just be like, okay, I'm going to accept all of

00:08:43 ◼   ► the warnings you're going to throw at me, but please stop telling me that this app is

00:08:47 ◼   ► tracking me with this horrific blue bar.

00:08:51 ◼   ► I wonder what it was that pushed Apple over the edge and the moment that they went like,

00:08:59 ◼   ► this is too much.

00:09:00 ◼   ► There must have been one occasion in the past, one case that convinced them we should show

00:09:07 ◼   ► a location bar because we cannot deal with this anymore.

00:09:11 ◼   ► It feels like a very personal, not in terms of like a single individual, but like a very

00:09:16 ◼   ► personal motivation to go against some types of apps that are running in the background

00:09:22 ◼   ► all the time.

00:09:24 ◼   ► And I have some ideas, but we can know for sure, we'll never know for sure, but it feels

00:09:29 ◼   ► to me like one of those decisions where a bunch of people got together and they saw a problem

00:09:35 ◼   ► and they went like we should go completely basically nuclear on this and show a location

00:09:41 ◼   ► bar for everyone because you know I don't we don't want to deal with this anymore.

00:09:45 ◼   ► Which I sort of understand but as a user like the first couple of times it's all right it's like

00:09:52 ◼   ► okay yeah I remember there's the app going in the background maybe let me check if it's doing what

00:09:57 ◼   ► what I think it is doing.

00:09:59 ◼   ► And then it sort of, it becomes like

00:10:02 ◼   ► a very annoying reminder.

00:10:03 ◼   ► Yes, I know Google Maps is in the background.

00:10:06 ◼   ► Yes, I know because I put it there

00:10:07 ◼   ► because I want it to run in the background.

00:10:09 ◼   ► And I want to know, I'm curious to know the split of users

00:10:14 ◼   ► that maybe months from now will disable background apps

00:10:19 ◼   ► because of the location bar.

00:10:21 ◼   ► And also the amount of people that will be annoyed

00:10:23 ◼   ► by the location bar displayed all the time

00:10:25 ◼   ► for apps that they willingly and consciously granted permission to run in the background.

00:10:31 ◼   ► So, we'll see I guess.

00:10:33 ◼   ► I'll tell you one way that it might not be so much of a problem if the double status,

00:10:39 ◼   ► double height status bar becomes a single height status bar because our phones are bigger.

00:10:43 ◼   ► So there is a Forbes render of the iPhone 8 which we're picking up from 9 to 5 Mac,

00:10:50 ◼   ► just based on, you know, stuff that this contributor who goes by the name, goes by the name of,

00:10:55 ◼   ► whose name is Gordon Kelly. It's like, I don't believe this person exists.

00:10:58 ◼   ► >> Because by the name. >> They've put together these renders apparently

00:11:02 ◼   ► based on some stuff that they know. And just one of the things, it's just interesting to

00:11:06 ◼   ► note that this device looks how we have seen it looking with like the screen reaching up

00:11:13 ◼   ► like to the very top, but it having that kind of eyebrow in the middle, which has the cameras

00:11:17 ◼   ► and the speaker grill and stuff. But it's all blended together. So it looks like it's

00:11:23 ◼   ► all black and then you have the battery status and your kind of connection

00:11:28 ◼   ► status from the left and right but it all looks like it's kind of just built

00:11:31 ◼   ► into the top of the phone. So if this is the case what would probably happen is

00:11:36 ◼   ► the the top status bar that we get right now doesn't exist anymore and then

00:11:40 ◼   ► there's just a single line status bar which would have stuff like you're on a

00:11:44 ◼   ► call right your your locations being tracked and then with the bigger screen

00:11:48 ◼   ► potentially it might not be so much of a problem. That makes sense because of all

00:11:53 ◼   ► right? Because the blacks are really black and so they can blend in

00:11:57 ◼   ► with the top-notch. This render looks great on the lock screen because the

00:12:05 ◼   ► clock is displayed in the middle of the screen. I really cannot buy into the idea

00:12:10 ◼   ► that Apple is gonna remove the clock from apps. Like when you're using the

00:12:13 ◼   ► iPhone you cannot look up the time. Yeah that is the thing we haven't mentioned

00:12:17 ◼   ► is there's no clock anymore, right?

00:12:19 ◼   ► And, like, I don't know.

00:12:22 ◼   ► Like, it looks fantastic on the lock screen.

00:12:24 ◼   ► Again, makes total sense.

00:12:26 ◼   ► But what if you unlock the phone?

00:12:28 ◼   ► Like, you know, as most people do,

00:12:30 ◼   ► they use the phone unlocked,

00:12:32 ◼   ► not as a digital portable frame.

00:12:35 ◼   ► So what happens to the, like,

00:12:37 ◼   ► you cannot look at your time anymore?

00:12:39 ◼   ► So I've been thinking about this,

00:12:41 ◼   ► and I don't know if this is elegant or not,

00:12:44 ◼   ► but, like, it makes sense to me.

00:12:45 ◼   ► that you know you have like the battery percentage and the connection state or something like that,

00:12:49 ◼   ► you might not need all of those all the time. So I could imagine you just tap on one and it would

00:12:53 ◼   ► show you the clock and then when you tap it again it would rotate to the other. And you can have a

00:12:57 ◼   ► few little things up there, I don't know. But like that would make sense to me. Like honestly, I

00:13:02 ◼   ► don't need to always see whether I'm connected to Wi-Fi or cell signal, right? Like I only need to

00:13:08 ◼   ► see that when I know there's, when I can already notice there's a problem. So like I could have

00:13:12 ◼   ► have that not there and then could just tap it when I need to see it.

00:13:17 ◼   ► We can already see how well this works on the Apple Watch.

00:13:20 ◼   ► If your watch is on it's very difficult to see where the screen stops and the border

00:13:27 ◼   ► begins.

00:13:28 ◼   ► Yeah I was just doing that.

00:13:29 ◼   ► I was just looking like where is that screen?

00:13:31 ◼   ► But no it blends in so beautifully.

00:13:32 ◼   ► You can see it in direct sunlight but other than that it looks really good and this is

00:13:38 ◼   ► something again, OLED can offer that they cannot do with the current screen technology.

00:13:44 ◼   ► So I think that yeah, like there's these weird trade-offs, but I think it could be really

00:13:49 ◼   ► nice.

00:13:50 ◼   ► Oh, you know, there was also a way to I mean, they could put I think this article alludes

00:13:54 ◼   ► to like put in the clock somewhere on the home screen, but that doesn't help you when

00:13:57 ◼   ► you're in an app like and I would be ashamed not to have the clock just persistent like

00:14:02 ◼   ► it is a useful feature.

00:14:04 ◼   ► And I feel like one of those things that if it was to go away, I would be like, oh man,

00:14:07 ◼   ► and I look at that clock so much, right?

00:14:10 ◼   ► And I have no idea, right?

00:14:11 ◼   ► So, you know, I trust-- - No, it would be terrible,

00:14:14 ◼   ► honestly. - I trust Apple to find

00:14:15 ◼   ► a way to make that work, 'cause it'd be super weird.

00:14:18 ◼   ► - I trust Apple to find a solution,

00:14:20 ◼   ► but I don't think the solution is to get rid

00:14:22 ◼   ► of the clock entirely, as in this concept.

00:14:25 ◼   ► - Honestly, I feel like if there was some kind of way

00:14:28 ◼   ► that they were changing the clock,

00:14:29 ◼   ► it wouldn't look the way it currently does in iOS 11.

00:14:31 ◼   ► Like, I feel like there would be

00:14:33 ◼   ► something different there, you know?

00:14:34 ◼   ► Like, I feel like we would already see a hint of it.

00:14:37 ◼   ► Your idea of showing the Wi-Fi and cellular when you need them, that makes sense to me.

00:14:43 ◼   ► Because between the two, if I had to choose, you know, clock all the time, and Wi-Fi and cellular,

00:14:52 ◼   ► like, I could live without, they could be behind the tap on the status bar.

00:14:56 ◼   ► So that could work, I think.

00:14:58 ◼   ► But by default, I should be able to see the time, whenever, you know, whenever I am on the iPhone,

00:15:03 ◼   ► I should always be able to see the time.

00:15:06 ◼   ► I'm getting real excited about this iPhone.

00:15:08 ◼   ► Like, just an OLED screen,

00:15:11 ◼   ► like how much of a difference it's gonna make.

00:15:13 ◼   ► I love OLED screens.

00:15:14 ◼   ► Every phone I've ever seen with an OLED screen,

00:15:16 ◼   ► I really like the way that that looks.

00:15:18 ◼   ► And you know, the dark blacks and stuff,

00:15:20 ◼   ► especially somebody who uses dark mode so much

00:15:22 ◼   ► in applications, that's gonna be exciting to me.

00:15:25 ◼   ► I wanna just very quickly touch on something

00:15:29 ◼   ► that came from Twitter user L33TH4X0R.

00:15:34 ◼   ► I know what that says, but I will not permit myself to say it.

00:15:38 ◼   ► Who wrote in to say that you can add masks in the Canary app.

00:15:42 ◼   ► Remember we were talking about how I thought it would be real great, like Hand Nest, where

00:15:47 ◼   ► you can say, "Oh, don't track movement in this area"?

00:15:50 ◼   ► Turns out you can do that in the Canary app.

00:15:53 ◼   ► There is a part in the sentence.

00:15:54 ◼   ► I did not know it was there, so that's good news.

00:15:56 ◼   ► So you can put a mask in the Canary app to say, "Hey, Canary camera, don't pay any attention

00:16:01 ◼   ► to movement that occurs in this part of the room."

00:16:04 ◼   ► So I could have it stop if there is movement from the window or whatever.

00:16:09 ◼   ► So that is there.

00:16:10 ◼   ► So that's a good piece of follow-up from that Twitter user.

00:16:14 ◼   ► Do you think that...

00:16:18 ◼   ► We talked about the location bar with Canary.

00:16:23 ◼   ► We have this, and we keep talking about the camera thing, and it sort of came to mind

00:16:30 ◼   ► for me after our last conversation that you know with the HomePod Apple's kind of moving

00:16:36 ◼   ► into a space that already exists.

00:16:37 ◼   ► Do you guys see a world in which Apple makes like a home kit camera?

00:16:45 ◼   ► I mean why not?

00:16:48 ◼   ► Like it would it would I would trust Apple more than I would trust others.

00:16:54 ◼   ► the only argument against that I guess is that right now the HomeKit

00:17:01 ◼   ► framework for cameras is kind of terrible so before Apple gets into the

00:17:06 ◼   ► game they would have to seriously reconsider the software and how it works

00:17:10 ◼   ► but the other problem maybe would be if Apple gets into one specific HomeKit

00:17:18 ◼   ► category why doesn't Apple make the weather sensor or like the temperature

00:17:23 ◼   ► or like the thermostat.

00:17:25 ◼   ► Like once you make one accessory, then why not more?

00:17:28 ◼   ► And if Apple is making accessories themselves,

00:17:31 ◼   ► what's the advantage for a platform, you know,

00:17:34 ◼   ► for others to come in and make other accessories?

00:17:37 ◼   ► And so I don't know, I would buy one

00:17:39 ◼   ► because I know it would be better

00:17:40 ◼   ► than the D-Link camera that I have,

00:17:42 ◼   ► which it gets super hot for some reason.

00:17:44 ◼   ► I mean, it's a camera, so I don't know why.

00:17:46 ◼   ► There's not a fan.

00:17:47 ◼   ► - It's a long-term follow-up there,

00:17:49 ◼   ► the D-Link camera.

00:17:51 ◼   ► I'd say of all of the things that Apple could make

00:17:54 ◼   ► in the home kit space,

00:17:56 ◼   ► a security camera is the one that makes the most sense.

00:18:00 ◼   ► You could have the footage go to the Photos app

00:18:03 ◼   ► if you really wanted it to.

00:18:05 ◼   ► They already know how to make good cameras.

00:18:07 ◼   ► They have a bunch of other sensor technology.

00:18:11 ◼   ► A camera is the one that I think makes the most sense.

00:18:14 ◼   ► Light bulbs, I don't see them making light bulbs.

00:18:17 ◼   ► Maybe they could make other types of movement sensors,

00:18:20 ◼   ► but I don't see them making a weather sensor,

00:18:22 ◼   ► just 'cause none of that stuff is like,

00:18:24 ◼   ► anything like what they currently do,

00:18:26 ◼   ► like it's different types of technologies.

00:18:28 ◼   ► So I would like them to do it,

00:18:30 ◼   ► I think it would be interesting if they did it,

00:18:32 ◼   ► and if they're going to,

00:18:34 ◼   ► I think that that's the one that they'll maybe start with.

00:18:37 ◼   ► - I think that's where I come down too,

00:18:40 ◼   ► that yeah, if they do it, it's like a slippery slope,

00:18:43 ◼   ► and does it discourage other people

00:18:45 ◼   ► from entering the market?

00:18:48 ◼   ► And you know, Apple does make other products,

00:18:50 ◼   ► like they make, at least they made, they still sell, it's really kind of confusing,

00:18:54 ◼   ► they still make wireless products, right? Base stations and stuff. But Apple was

00:18:57 ◼   ► really first to that in the consumer market and that hasn't stopped other

00:19:01 ◼   ► people from doing it. But I think it's a little bit different when Apple owns the

00:19:04 ◼   ► platform. Like they own HomeKit and they want all these things to work with it.

00:19:07 ◼   ► I agree with you that it could maybe stifle innovation. So I don't see them doing it

00:19:12 ◼   ► for that big reason but I think if they did a camera, it seems like a pretty good

00:19:16 ◼   ► place to start. I know, just came to mind. Yeah. Lastly, and this is reaching way

00:19:23 ◼   ► back, but we've spoken over the years of this show about software preservation, in

00:19:29 ◼   ► particular in iOS, and how that's way more difficult than it is on the Mac

00:19:33 ◼   ► side. And this article on Slate jumped out at me talking about the 32-bit, 64-bit

00:19:43 ◼   ► transition that's coming with iOS 11 that 32-bit apps will be shown the door

00:19:50 ◼   ► and something like 200,000 apps it's estimated could be affected by this and

00:19:57 ◼   ► that would basically go away and this article is really about games so flight

00:20:01 ◼   ► control, cannonball, which I think is like the first game I played on iOS, flappy

00:20:05 ◼   ► bird, a bunch of these apps they're 32-bit are going to be going away and

00:20:10 ◼   ► And when they do, they won't be in the App Store.

00:20:13 ◼   ► There'll be no way to see them or see the reviews

00:20:16 ◼   ► or see screenshots.

00:20:16 ◼   ► It's all just gonna disappear.

00:20:18 ◼   ► And Internet Archive doesn't capture the App Store

00:20:22 ◼   ► for a bunch of reasons, I don't think.

00:20:24 ◼   ► So it's kind of concerning that a bunch of stuff's

00:20:26 ◼   ► gonna disappear from the internet forever.

00:20:28 ◼   ► And that makes me sad.

00:20:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, it is sad.

00:20:31 ◼   ► And I've sort of come to terms with the fact

00:20:34 ◼   ► that Apple doesn't care about this.

00:20:35 ◼   ► Like in their, from their point of view,

00:20:39 ◼   ► it's not like there's almost no feelings attached to this problem, it's just the developers' fault

00:20:45 ◼   ► that they did not update their apps for the new versions of iOS.

00:20:49 ◼   ► And there's 10% of me that still hopes that maybe Apple will come in with an emulator of some kind

00:20:58 ◼   ► a couple of years from now to be able and maybe give it to the internet archive and be like

00:21:03 ◼   ► "now you can play, you know, these games that came out in 2008 and they've been pulled from the App Store."

00:21:09 ◼   ► But the other 90% simply thinks that Apple sees this as a problem, not as a sort of nostalgic,

00:21:19 ◼   ► you know, complex situation that they're now facing.

00:21:22 ◼   ► It's a technical problem.

00:21:23 ◼   ► Like there's some apps that do not support 64-bit and the developers are, you know, they

00:21:30 ◼   ► cannot be convinced to update those apps on the App Store.

00:21:33 ◼   ► So we'll just progressively discourage them from submitting binaries with 32-bit only to the App Store,

00:21:41 ◼   ► then we'll just force them to submit with 64-bit binaries, and then we'll start showing an alert to users,

00:21:47 ◼   ► then we'll maybe pull the apps from the App Store, and eventually with iOS 11, those apps will just stop working.

00:21:55 ◼   ► This has been in the works for a long time.

00:21:57 ◼   ► I don't see Apple caring about this problem in the same nostalgic, sort of romantic way that I do at least.

00:22:05 ◼   ► And it's just something that I have accepted and the only solution is the technical one that Apple has.

00:22:14 ◼   ► Which is either you update your app or it's gone.

00:22:17 ◼   ► So just two ways to see the problem, I guess.

00:22:21 ◼   ► I think this is gonna be the thing that captures the headlines when iOS 11 drops.

00:22:29 ◼   ► You know, like I see if you can forecast what the problem will be, I think it will be this one.

00:22:36 ◼   ► Apple kills my favorite apps, right? Like I think that's gonna be the problem,

00:22:42 ◼   ► that's gonna be the thing. I don't know enough about the technical reasons for why you would

00:22:48 ◼   ► want to do this, right? But from the basics that I do understand, I can see why they are

00:22:53 ◼   ► doing it, because it's the case of wanting to move forward. But what I don't understand

00:23:00 ◼   ► is like, can they not emulate this stuff? I guess you can't emulate it fast enough,

00:23:06 ◼   ► right?

00:23:07 ◼   ► Well, they have the perfect comeback to the critics of saying Apple is killing all apps

00:23:13 ◼   ► in games which is, do you want your phone to run faster and to consume less battery?

00:23:18 ◼   ► If so, there's no way we could keep 32-bit support forever.

00:23:23 ◼   ► The thing is though for people, I think people just have really good arguments, well in their

00:23:26 ◼   ► mind really good arguments today, which is just like, this is for you to fix, not me.

00:23:31 ◼   ► Right?

00:23:32 ◼   ► And I think that's the way a lot of people feel about technology.

00:23:34 ◼   ► People feel that way, but it doesn't work that way because it's not Apple that makes

00:23:38 ◼   ► the apps.

00:23:39 ◼   ► And Apple can say, "Well, we told developers we're like two years..."

00:23:42 ◼   ► Like, I understand their position. They've been telling developers two to three years in advance,

00:23:48 ◼   ► "We are going to phase out 32-bit eventually, so you have like three years to get ready."

00:23:55 ◼   ► And again, it's more of a nostalgic problem, really.

00:24:02 ◼   ► Like, that's the game that I love. It's not been updated in three years, 40 years, five years,

00:24:07 ◼   ► and now it's gonna stop working.

00:24:09 ◼   ► And I guess it's different because we're not used to this problem,

00:24:13 ◼   ► which is what we discussed in that old episode when we talked about, you know, old Nintendo games.

00:24:20 ◼   ► If you have an NES and an old cartridge, you can still play the game today.

00:24:24 ◼   ► But these games are not physical, they are software.

00:24:26 ◼   ► And when the software, you know, breaks for an app with an update or bug or whatever,

00:24:31 ◼   ► the game is no more.

00:24:32 ◼   ► And that's the problem we're facing now.

00:24:34 ◼   ► So that episode was super, super foreshadowing of what is going to happen in IOS 11.

00:24:40 ◼   ► I guess it's a tricky situation to explain because from the developer point of view,

00:24:47 ◼   ► really developers have it worst because for a bunch of reasons there can be studios that are

00:24:54 ◼   ► no longer around and cannot update the games anymore because maybe they don't have the rights

00:24:58 ◼   ► anymore between the publisher and the game developer. Some developers maybe, some folks

00:25:03 ◼   ► maybe are not around anymore. There could be a whole bunch of reasons, financial reasons.

00:25:10 ◼   ► From Apple's perspective, this is a technical problem and it's not up to them to fix the

00:25:15 ◼   ► being given developers warnings and all that. And from the user's perspective it kinda sucks

00:25:20 ◼   ► because well, I did nothing wrong here, I've been keeping this game on my iPhone for ages

00:25:26 ◼   ► and now it doesn't work anymore, I did nothing wrong, it's not my fault Apple you're evil.

00:25:30 ◼   ► So I understand all the three different positions and there's probably no easy solution.

00:25:36 ◼   ► Which is why this is kind of fascinating to discuss because there's no...

00:25:40 ◼   ► Like the single fix will be an emulation mode, but I don't know if it would...

00:25:44 ◼   ► If you work well on modern hardware to emulate 32-bit stuff.

00:25:50 ◼   ► And if Apple wants to invest resources and time, because you're basically pulling engineers

00:25:55 ◼   ► from the core teams, you know, to kind of emulate everything from 32-bit on 64-bit.

00:26:01 ◼   ► So those are actual people. It's not like when we make fun of the people who say, "You

00:26:05 ◼   ► know, the Mac Pro team is now doing commercials with, you know, with the rock." It's not like

00:26:10 ◼   ► that. These are actual people, like the actual engineers that work on the main frameworks.

00:26:14 ◼   ► You would ask them to create an emulator for 32-bit. So I don't know if you want Apple

00:26:19 ◼   ► to invest that time.

00:26:21 ◼   ► I think people will want it if Flappy Bird stops working.

00:26:26 ◼   ► I agree with you. This is not something that I'm down on, like I get why they gotta do it.

00:26:32 ◼   ► I'm just saying I think it's gonna be tricky for them.

00:26:35 ◼   ► Especially to explain to people. That's the tricky part.

00:26:40 ◼   ► Developers understand what is going on. The tricky part is to explain this to people.

00:26:44 ◼   ► How can I explain to my friends that I've been keeping old games, you know, they have the black bars on top and the bottom

00:26:50 ◼   ► because they're really old games.

00:26:51 ◼   ► How do I explain to them the difference

00:26:53 ◼   ► between 32-bit and 64-bit

00:26:55 ◼   ► and the policy that Apple has put in place?

00:26:56 ◼   ► Like, this is the tricky part.

00:26:59 ◼   ► Sit down and I'm gonna teach you a lesson

00:27:01 ◼   ► about 64-bit and App Store guidelines.

00:27:03 ◼   ► Like, that doesn't work, so I don't know.

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00:29:54 ◼   ► - All right, Myke, I need to talk to you.

00:29:55 ◼   ► - No, I don't wanna do, I just haven't seen the heading

00:29:58 ◼   ► in the notes and I just don't wanna do it.

00:30:01 ◼   ► - Well, no one else who you do shows with

00:30:03 ◼   ► is willing to do this, so I'm gonna do it.

00:30:05 ◼   ► So when was it, the end of the year,

00:30:08 ◼   ► beginning of this year sometime?

00:30:10 ◼   ► When did you buy this MacBook?

00:30:12 ◼   ► - We're talking about my MacBook now.

00:30:14 ◼   ► It was whenever they introduced the--

00:30:18 ◼   ► - The new one?

00:30:19 ◼   ► - The MacBook Pro.

00:30:20 ◼   ► It was when the MacBook Pro came out with the touch bar.

00:30:23 ◼   ► I went and bought them because I could get it

00:30:26 ◼   ► before the prices went up because they were changing

00:30:28 ◼   ► the prices because of the falling pound.

00:30:31 ◼   ► - Yeah, #Brexit.

00:30:33 ◼   ► So you bought a MacBook,

00:30:35 ◼   ► the little 12 inch, one USB-C port MacBook.

00:30:39 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:30:40 ◼   ► And just remind the listeners what you do for a living, just as a refresher of people

00:30:45 ◼   ► who may not know.

00:30:46 ◼   ► I'm an independent content creator.

00:30:48 ◼   ► Mmm, wow, that was quite a phrase.

00:30:52 ◼   ► Are you a YouTuber, Myke?

00:30:54 ◼   ► Yes, actually, I am one of those.

00:30:56 ◼   ► YouTuber, a podcaster.

00:30:57 ◼   ► That doesn't make any money though, but I do do that sometimes.

00:31:04 ◼   ► And what are you doing for the month of August, just in case people don't know?

00:31:07 ◼   ► I am roaming America.

00:31:09 ◼   ► Wow, that sounds like you're doing it in a van.

00:31:14 ◼   ► He's just a British man in a van with a MacBook.

00:31:18 ◼   ► So when we were at WODC together, Jose, you were on this MacBook trying to edit something.

00:31:26 ◼   ► I don't even remember what.

00:31:27 ◼   ► I was there.

00:31:28 ◼   ► Yeah, I remember this.

00:31:30 ◼   ► Federico was there.

00:31:32 ◼   ► And so Federico can back me up.

00:31:34 ◼   ► You were quite frustrated at the speed of which your MacBook was doing the task at hand.

00:31:39 ◼   ► Yeah, I was quite upset about that.

00:31:42 ◼   ► And I think you've got a couple weeks, like a week, before you leave on your month-long

00:31:49 ◼   ► trip to America, assuming America's still here in a week, and I think you have the wrong

00:31:55 ◼   ► computer.

00:31:57 ◼   ► And I think there's time to fix it, and I have even picked you out a new one.

00:32:01 ◼   ► It's a Dell Experian.

00:32:04 ◼   ► That's right.

00:32:05 ◼   ► You did want the RGB keyboard, right?

00:32:07 ◼   ► Yeah, please, please.

00:32:08 ◼   ► the gaming lights. I would love that right now actually. You also have to, it's like stickers

00:32:15 ◼   ► that are always there. You have to learn Adobe Premiere now. Good luck. So I think, so I really

00:32:23 ◼   ► like the MacBook. My wife has the very first generation one. I enjoy using hers even though

00:32:28 ◼   ► it's really slow compared to, the new ones are actually much better than the previous ones.

00:32:34 ◼   ► I like the portability, the screen is gorgeous, I like the low travel keyboard, the MacBook

00:32:39 ◼   ► is a great computer.

00:32:41 ◼   ► I just think it's the wrong computer for you.

00:32:44 ◼   ► I think you're going to end up really frustrated on this trip trying to edit on this thing

00:32:48 ◼   ► and trying to balance audio.

00:32:52 ◼   ► God forbid you do any video while you're gone and I'm sure you're going to want to do some

00:32:55 ◼   ► video while you're gone right on this trip.

00:32:57 ◼   ► Yeah, I have to do a video.

00:33:00 ◼   ► You got to do it for Cortex, you've got the vlog.

00:33:03 ◼   ► I think that you I think that it's time to I'm not saying sell the MacBook.

00:33:10 ◼   ► Maybe there's someone in your family who could use it.

00:33:11 ◼   ► Maybe a Dina needs a new computer, maybe a brother or your loving mother.

00:33:16 ◼   ► Maybe someone else needs a laptop.

00:33:18 ◼   ► But I think you need the the MacBook Pro.

00:33:21 ◼   ► And I think in particular, I think that you should probably do the the two port that what

00:33:28 ◼   ► people call what Marco is called the MacBook Pro escape.

00:33:31 ◼   ► So no touch bar, the regular keys.

00:33:33 ◼   ► And I say this for very specific reasons.

00:33:36 ◼   ► So I have, I'm gonna put the link in the chat room

00:33:39 ◼   ► so everyone is listening can follow along with me.

00:33:44 ◼   ► Both of these machines start at $1299 now.

00:33:48 ◼   ► You probably shouldn't get the $1299 one,

00:33:49 ◼   ► you should probably spec it up a little bit,

00:33:51 ◼   ► but you're not spending much more money than you did before.

00:33:54 ◼   ► It is just a little bit bigger.

00:33:58 ◼   ► Still has a display, obviously has a better screen.

00:34:01 ◼   ► The battery life, and this is why I picked the Escape,

00:34:03 ◼   ► the battery life is basically the same

00:34:07 ◼   ► as the MacBook you have now.

00:34:08 ◼   ► Apple says 10 hours of wireless web work.

00:34:11 ◼   ► They say 12 hours of iTunes movie playback on the MacBook

00:34:13 ◼   ► and 10 hours on the MacBook Pro.

00:34:16 ◼   ► I think that basically comes out in the wash.

00:34:17 ◼   ► I think as hard as you're pushing it with Logic

00:34:19 ◼   ► and Final Cut and everything,

00:34:20 ◼   ► you're gonna get basically the same battery life.

00:34:23 ◼   ► And it only weighs a pound more,

00:34:25 ◼   ► which is, I know a big thing when you bought the MacBook

00:34:29 ◼   ► was weight, and you said, and I'm gonna quote you--

00:34:31 ◼   ► - Whoa, whoa, just that thing real quick, right?

00:34:33 ◼   ► A pound more means twice the weight, right?

00:34:37 ◼   ► Like it's, I think that needs to be just mentioned

00:34:40 ◼   ► at this point. - That's not how math works.

00:34:41 ◼   ► No, it's not twice the weight.

00:34:42 ◼   ► - Is it not?

00:34:43 ◼   ► - The MacBook weighs 2.03 pounds.

00:34:47 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:34:47 ◼   ► - And the MacBook Pro weighs 302, so it is a third more.

00:34:51 ◼   ► - Okay. - Right, that's how

00:34:52 ◼   ► that works.

00:34:54 ◼   ► half more, it doesn't double it.

00:34:57 ◼   ► And I understand why you did it,

00:34:58 ◼   ► and I think the MacBook totally wins,

00:35:01 ◼   ► and you said this on Upgrade yesterday,

00:35:03 ◼   ► which is why I put this in the document for today,

00:35:05 ◼   ► that you can put it in your backpack

00:35:06 ◼   ► and you can forget that it's there because it's so small,

00:35:08 ◼   ► which I totally understand, and that is the trade-off

00:35:12 ◼   ► for a machine that you're not gonna pull your eyeballs out

00:35:14 ◼   ► waiting for it to export something.

00:35:16 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, so here's the thing, right?

00:35:18 ◼   ► That logic still stands, I think, for me,

00:35:21 ◼   ► But I do agree that logic stands way better when I'm usually bringing a Macbook on this trip, which is emergencies.

00:35:29 ◼   ► Right, like I will bring a Macbook when I know I'm going to be recording, like just in case your computer's broken or Jason's computer isn't going to work.

00:35:41 ◼   ► Right. Like I bring it for emergencies.

00:35:42 ◼   ► There is one other thing, though, which is like, I don't want to buy a computer now.

00:35:48 ◼   ► I don't.

00:35:48 ◼   ► Well, yeah, I can't. Yeah.

00:35:50 ◼   ► Well, I mean, you say you can't help me with that.

00:35:52 ◼   ► But you have to checkbook for our company.

00:35:56 ◼   ► So maybe

00:35:57 ◼   ► considering you are trying to twist my arm so badly, maybe you can help me with

00:36:02 ◼   ► that.

00:36:03 ◼   ► Well, we can talk about that later.

00:36:04 ◼   ► Relay didn't buy that. Relay didn't buy that MacBook.

00:36:06 ◼   ► No, I know. I bought it. Right.

00:36:09 ◼   ► But I don't. That means I don't want to buy a MacBook Pro because I bought a

00:36:12 ◼   ► MacBook.

00:36:13 ◼   ► Yeah, no, I get it. I get it.

00:36:15 ◼   ► And I don't really expect you to run out and spend fourteen hundred dollars.

00:36:18 ◼   ► So why are we doing this right now?

00:36:19 ◼   ► I'm going to berate you on the air.

00:36:20 ◼   ► Because no one else had this conversation with you.

00:36:22 ◼   ► Right, because everybody knows.

00:36:24 ◼   ► It's like, well, I just bought two iPads, right?

00:36:26 ◼   ► I don't want to buy a laptop.

00:36:29 ◼   ► I don't want to do that.

00:36:31 ◼   ► Multi-iPad lifestyle, multi-Macbook lifestyle.

00:36:34 ◼   ► You have your MacBook for when you're not editing.

00:36:37 ◼   ► And then you put it back in your backpack.

00:36:38 ◼   ► And you pull the MacBook Pro when you're editing.

00:36:40 ◼   ► You're best of both worlds.

00:36:41 ◼   ► Now, granted, now you're carrying 5.05 pounds of laptop.

00:36:44 ◼   ► But that's fine.

00:36:46 ◼   ► One of each.

00:36:47 ◼   ► One of each, Myke.

00:36:48 ◼   ► problems solved. This was not a helpful conversation. But I got to berate you on the air so I feel

00:36:53 ◼   ► better now. Do you want to talk about how many laptops you've bought because of the

00:36:57 ◼   ► bad decisions that you make? Oh no, this is a pot calling the kettle black. But I sold

00:37:04 ◼   ► the other one, Kyle the Grey who was in the chat room is probably listening on my old

00:37:07 ◼   ► MacBook Pro. Poor Kyle. Tell it hello for me Kyle. So anyways, I'm very curious to hear

00:37:14 ◼   ► how the MacBook fares on this trip. Well it's gonna be a disaster isn't it now?

00:37:18 ◼   ► Like we all know this. It really is. Because I mean I look at the MacBook so so my setup I have

00:37:23 ◼   ► it just like you have a 27 inch iMac late 2015 it's super nice and it's on my

00:37:28 ◼   ► desk I really genuinely love this Mac and I have a 13 inch MacBook Pro that I

00:37:34 ◼   ► use for the same reason you use your MacBook right we travel and we do shows

00:37:38 ◼   ► on the road and we have to edit and and do all this content creation at

00:37:41 ◼   ► conferences and I mean even on vacation we're recording podcasts like and for me

00:37:46 ◼   ► I found that the iMac plus 13 Pro a really nice thing but I look at my

00:37:51 ◼   ► wife's MacBook and I always think I really like this computer and I wish I

00:37:56 ◼   ► could do my work on it but I don't feel like I can't so I am very curious

00:37:59 ◼   ► because you have the new one the newest one how it fares so anyways I just want

00:38:06 ◼   ► to talk through it a little bit with you because I think I think it's really

00:38:08 ◼   ► interesting that such a attractive laptop in so many reasons like there's a big trade-off there

00:38:13 ◼   ► with the performance and I find those trade-offs interesting. It makes sense though right like the

00:38:18 ◼   ► work I'm doing would be class professional work and there is a line of computer which has

00:38:23 ◼   ► professional in the name and that's what they're for and this isn't for that right like it is built

00:38:28 ◼   ► for something else right like it is the iPad of the Mac line right like it is meant to be used for

00:38:34 ◼   ► different things. What if Pro doesn't stand for professional? What if it's the MacBook

00:38:43 ◼   ► promise? That's a pretty good product name. I'm just saying we're making up nicknames

00:38:51 ◼   ► for computers anyway. This is my take. It's the MacBook promise. It promises that you

00:38:58 ◼   ► will have a bad time. So anyways, I do hope it meets your needs, Myke, but I do fully

00:39:05 ◼   ► expect you to edit on my iMac when you're in Memphis for a week.

00:39:07 ◼   ► Well yeah, because why would I not do that? Like, no, no, I'm good, I'm good. Why would

00:39:13 ◼   ► I not do that? If I could take an iMac with me, I would take the iMac with me, right?

00:39:18 ◼   ► You can. You've seen those pictures on Reddit of the dude in the Starbucks with an iMac?

00:39:22 ◼   ► I'll send you the bill for my baggage allowance.

00:39:26 ◼   ► No! Federico, what's going on iOS Beta 4?

00:39:33 ◼   ► There's a bunch of fixes that I'm really happy to see that Apple is actually listening to feedback from users and improving on stuff that we didn't like.

00:39:42 ◼   ► The primary changes in Notification Center, should I say the cover sheet, that is going back to the previous behavior of

00:39:50 ◼   ► you're not forced to use 3D touch or long press on a notification anymore to open it and then dismiss it.

00:40:00 ◼   ► If you want to, you can swipe to the left to reveal two options, one for clear and the second for view.

00:40:08 ◼   ► View means expand the notification in line.

00:40:11 ◼   ► If you keep swiping all the way to the left, it doesn't show in the UI, but you can actually trigger the clear option.

00:40:18 ◼   ► Similarly, if you swipe from the left to the right, you're gonna have an open option.

00:40:24 ◼   ► And if you keep swiping all the way to the right side, the app of the notification, you

00:40:29 ◼   ► know, where it comes from, it's gonna open.

00:40:31 ◼   ► Also, Apple has changed the behavior of when you tap a notification from the lock screen.

00:40:37 ◼   ► So if the device is unlocked and you tap on a notification banner, you get this full screen

00:40:45 ◼   ► message that says you should unlock with Touch ID if you want to open say Twitter.

00:40:50 ◼   ► So now it's clear you don't have to look into the status bar and see the padlock changing

00:40:56 ◼   ► from locked to unlocked.

00:40:58 ◼   ► Now you get this full screen UI that says unlock to open.

00:41:02 ◼   ► So this is much better than before because you know some people really cannot use 3D

00:41:08 ◼   ► Touch and it's not just the ergonomics of 3D Touch.

00:41:12 ◼   ► more about the fact that it doesn't make sense to open a notification if I already know I don't want to open a notification.

00:41:22 ◼   ► So if I look at a message and right from the subject I can tell well I want to dismiss this.

00:41:28 ◼   ► Why should I be forced to look at it to open it to dismiss?

00:41:32 ◼   ► And also when you open a notification when you expand it, there's an implicit cost of

00:41:39 ◼   ► rendering a view controller and loading assets,

00:41:42 ◼   ► loading content from that app.

00:41:43 ◼   ► And it doesn't make sense to make sure

00:41:46 ◼   ► that people have to open, have to view and then dismiss.

00:41:50 ◼   ► So this old behavior, like I've seen some people on Twitter

00:41:54 ◼   ► say, "Oh, look, it's just nerds

00:41:56 ◼   ► that cannot get used to stuff changing."

00:41:58 ◼   ► Like it's not that, it's literally like a worst solution.

00:42:02 ◼   ► And you can still expand with 3D touch and swipe down

00:42:05 ◼   ► if you want to, but it doesn't make sense

00:42:07 ◼   ► force people to do it that way because there's a consequence of making 3D Touch and notification

00:42:15 ◼   ► expansion the only way. So this is nice. I still would like to see more and we're probably not

00:42:23 ◼   ► gonna get what I want. It would be nice, especially now that there's the concept of drag and drop,

00:42:28 ◼   ► I'm just gonna say it would be nice to tap and hold the notification on the lock screen,

00:42:32 ◼   ► pick it up, tap more notifications and dismiss the ones you want all at once.

00:42:37 ◼   ► You know the same way that you can pick up multiple photos in iOS 11 and drop them

00:42:43 ◼   ► somewhere. I would like to, you know, it would be I think a nice compromise between the grouping by

00:42:50 ◼   ► app that Myke wants and these other designs. So you pick up the notifications you don't want

00:42:56 ◼   ► and you drop them in a trash or somewhere to dismiss them.

00:43:00 ◼   ► I would like that. Like hold on to that.

00:43:02 ◼   ► Yeah. Go away from me forever.

00:43:04 ◼   ► So I have a question, right?

00:43:06 ◼   ► This is something that I don't understand.

00:43:08 ◼   ► And I'm wondering if you have any ideas about this.

00:43:11 ◼   ► Why are there two ways for me to open a notification?

00:43:15 ◼   ► Now I can either tap it or swipe and tap it.

00:43:18 ◼   ► Yeah, that doesn't that seems weird to me in a way that I can't

00:43:22 ◼   ► fully cut my head around.

00:43:24 ◼   ► Like why did they add a new like two ways to open a notification?

00:43:30 ◼   ► Like I feel like look, okay, we do this. This is what we do. There's got to be something to that that I'm not seeing

00:43:35 ◼   ► Mm-hmm, right. Um, I think it just goes back to the idea of providing options to people

00:43:42 ◼   ► Right, but like they in the last beta that it was all I couldn't do it, right?

00:43:47 ◼   ► Like I could write it at all now. I have two ways to do it

00:43:50 ◼   ► Like I feel like it's yeah, it is not just a change in direction

00:43:53 ◼   ► It's like a change in direction and then they went 17 miles down the road. Yeah, it's very weird

00:43:59 ◼   ► Like, there's a precedent for that, like last year when they revamped Spotlight Search.

00:44:07 ◼   ► They didn't just make one way to open Spotlight, they didn't just make two or three.

00:44:12 ◼   ► When I was working on the review I counted all the ways that you could open Spotlight,

00:44:15 ◼   ► and I'm pretty sure there were like ten different ways that you could open Spotlight on iOS 10.

00:44:20 ◼   ► So when they think a feature works, they tend to add at least a couple of ways to work with that feature.

00:44:29 ◼   ► No, I get that, but that's when they added a new feature, right?

00:44:34 ◼   ► I know that it's strange, but I guess it's a combination of muscle memory.

00:44:39 ◼   ► Some people are used to swiping left, right on notifications to open them.

00:44:44 ◼   ► Other people just want to launch them.

00:44:48 ◼   ► I understand why you think it's strange.

00:44:50 ◼   ► But I'm happy I have the choice because I just want to be able to do this.

00:44:54 ◼   ► So like they have fixed so many of the problems.

00:44:58 ◼   ► Notification center now.

00:45:00 ◼   ► I think it's kind of getting better and I'm almost almost sold on the idea of

00:45:05 ◼   ► the notification screen is now the lock screen, but it's not locked.

00:45:11 ◼   ► Although I still think it's kind of odd.

00:45:14 ◼   ► And we're showing this to my girlfriend last night.

00:45:16 ◼   ► I was like, hey, take my phone and open notifications.

00:45:20 ◼   ► And I was on the home screen. So she's wiped down and the cover sheet open.

00:45:24 ◼   ► So she and I was looking at her.

00:45:26 ◼   ► It was like an A/B test in real life.

00:45:28 ◼   ► And and she's like, what have I done?

00:45:33 ◼   ► Is this is her first question was, is this a screenshot?

00:45:36 ◼   ► Because she couldn't figure out why a swipe to open a notification center

00:45:41 ◼   ► would go to the lock screen.

00:45:43 ◼   ► And then she asked, did I just lock the phone?

00:45:46 ◼   ► So I think this is going to be common.

00:45:48 ◼   ► And this is the, uh, the, the problem that I see with this design that is not

00:45:52 ◼   ► changing of it looks like a replica of the lock screen, but it's not locked.

00:45:57 ◼   ► And I wonder if, you know, the Apple's idea of we're, we're just giving people

00:46:05 ◼   ► what they want and what they're used to will actually produce the opposite result

00:46:10 ◼   ► of people getting confused because nowadays wipe and the think of fun is locked.

00:46:15 ◼   ► And there's folks like me who don't use auto lock.

00:46:18 ◼   ► And so when you swipe down, the cover sheet is,

00:46:20 ◼   ► I think it's always gonna be open.

00:46:22 ◼   ► I haven't tested this yet on beta four.

00:46:24 ◼   ► So maybe they added a fix for that.

00:46:27 ◼   ► But basically cover sheet respects the setting

00:46:29 ◼   ► that you set for auto lock.

00:46:30 ◼   ► So if you're like me, you set the auto lock to never,

00:46:33 ◼   ► the cover sheet never locks,

00:46:36 ◼   ► which is kind of a problem because it looks like locks.

00:46:38 ◼   ► - Yeah, but that's not a problem though, right?

00:46:39 ◼   ► 'Cause you know to lock your phone.

00:46:41 ◼   ► - Oh, what if I forget?

00:46:42 ◼   ► - Yeah, but do you though?

00:46:43 ◼   ► because then your phone will be unlocked anyway.

00:46:45 ◼   ► Right, like, I am very confident that you never forget to lock your phone.

00:46:49 ◼   ► But now there's a visual cue that can trick my brain into thinking it's locked, while it's not.

00:46:55 ◼   ► That's my problem.

00:46:56 ◼   ► Yeah, okay.

00:46:57 ◼   ► Why does it have to look like a lock screen? Like...

00:47:00 ◼   ► I tell you why Federico, because they need a place to put the clock,

00:47:03 ◼   ► because the new iPhone doesn't have a clock.

00:47:06 ◼   ► Oh, gee...

00:47:06 ◼   ► Well then, if you swipe down, you should see the clock right away.

00:47:10 ◼   ► Well...

00:47:11 ◼   ► Right? Let's see.

00:47:11 ◼   ► - No, I agree, but they just know where to do that.

00:47:13 ◼   ► - You see the bottom.

00:47:15 ◼   ► - I will say, right, like I have been using iOS 11

00:47:18 ◼   ► on my iPads and honestly I've forgotten

00:47:20 ◼   ► that this is how it is.

00:47:22 ◼   ► Like to me it's just, well that's where it all is now.

00:47:24 ◼   ► Like I don't even really pay attention to it.

00:47:26 ◼   ► It's like that's just where it is.

00:47:27 ◼   ► Maybe it's different, like with iPhone and iPad,

00:47:30 ◼   ► like I'm not using iOS 11 on a phone,

00:47:32 ◼   ► but like when I scroll down, I'm like, well,

00:47:34 ◼   ► I don't, do you know what, I honestly,

00:47:35 ◼   ► a lot of the time I don't even see the clock there.

00:47:37 ◼   ► Like it's just the notifications, right?

00:47:39 ◼   ► Like it's just not a thing in my mind.

00:47:40 ◼   ► I'm totally used to it. It isn't a thing that it concerns me.

00:47:44 ◼   ► And I think a lot of people probably would just get used to it and that they

00:47:48 ◼   ► might not necessarily think that something is fundamentally broken.

00:47:52 ◼   ► But there is, of course, the option where, like, if you are a person like you who

00:47:55 ◼   ► doesn't ever lock their phone, there are maybe more problems with it.

00:47:58 ◼   ► But like, I'll just say, like, my personal usage is like it's just

00:48:02 ◼   ► notification center and it has a clock on it now.

00:48:04 ◼   ► That's how I look at it.

00:48:07 ◼   ► Here's my problem and I think I've figured out why I don't like it.

00:48:11 ◼   ► And there's no functional benefit to making it look like a lock screen because it works like before.

00:48:21 ◼   ► It's wipes down and it's a notification list.

00:48:25 ◼   ► You can swipe to the side and you see the widgets.

00:48:28 ◼   ► There's no functional change.

00:48:31 ◼   ► It's just a visual one.

00:48:33 ◼   ► And that visual change I think it's confusing.

00:48:36 ◼   ► So like you could swap this, the functionality with iOS 10,

00:48:40 ◼   ► and it would be the same.

00:48:41 ◼   ► It's a notification center, opens on top, you swipe it,

00:48:45 ◼   ► you view the widgets.

00:48:46 ◼   ► But now it looks like the lock screen,

00:48:48 ◼   ► but it doesn't behave like it.

00:48:50 ◼   ► And that I still find confusing.

00:48:52 ◼   ► - I think it's just a user,

00:48:54 ◼   ► like it is a perceived user experience thing.

00:48:57 ◼   ► There is this, these two places that have the same things,

00:49:02 ◼   ► right, in iOS 10, but one of them is the lock screen

00:49:05 ◼   ► and one of them is not the lock screen,

00:49:07 ◼   ► so it's just, well, I should make it one thing now.

00:49:09 ◼   ► - Would you call them the same place then?

00:49:12 ◼   ► - Effectively, right?

00:49:15 ◼   ► They look the same, that's what I'm saying, right?

00:49:18 ◼   ► Like it is-- - Exactly.

00:49:19 ◼   ► - Yeah, but I think that's the point though, right?

00:49:22 ◼   ► Like, so in iOS 10, you can swipe down

00:49:25 ◼   ► and get your notifications,

00:49:26 ◼   ► and you can swipe to the other side,

00:49:27 ◼   ► and you get the widgets,

00:49:29 ◼   ► but if you swipe to the other side,

00:49:30 ◼   ► you don't get the camera, right?

00:49:32 ◼   ► So maybe they're just like,

00:49:33 ◼   ► oh, we're just gonna make it,

00:49:34 ◼   ► it all kind of looks like it's the same thing,

00:49:36 ◼   ► so let's make it look exactly like it's the same thing.

00:49:40 ◼   ► - The faster camera access you write

00:49:42 ◼   ► is the only benefit I can think of.

00:49:44 ◼   ► - I don't think that's much of a benefit though, honestly.

00:49:46 ◼   ► I think the swiping for the camera thing is mostly crap.

00:49:49 ◼   ► - But there's people, people are gonna tell you,

00:49:51 ◼   ► well, actually you have that option.

00:49:54 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, I get it.

00:49:54 ◼   ► And if you use it that way, that's great.

00:49:56 ◼   ► I mean, for me, it's crap.

00:49:57 ◼   ► Like I never, ever remember to swipe.

00:50:00 ◼   ► I know it's been there forever.

00:50:02 ◼   ► Since they changed it from like the swipe up,

00:50:04 ◼   ► I have never gotten used to that.

00:50:06 ◼   ► I just-- - Oh really?

00:50:07 ◼   ► - I just open my phone and open the camera.

00:50:09 ◼   ► Like I just-- - No, you're crazy.

00:50:12 ◼   ► - It's not-- - It's the best.

00:50:13 ◼   ► It's so good. - I'm not saying it's bad.

00:50:15 ◼   ► I'm saying I don't remember.

00:50:17 ◼   ► That's what I'm saying, right?

00:50:18 ◼   ► Like I'm not saying this sucks.

00:50:20 ◼   ► I'm like I just never remembered to do it.

00:50:22 ◼   ► Since they changed it, it's just never stuck in my head,

00:50:24 ◼   ► like the swiping to the side.

00:50:26 ◼   ► - All right, all right. - Plus I've always

00:50:27 ◼   ► had the camera on my homes.

00:50:28 ◼   ► Anyway, so my brain is locked in

00:50:31 ◼   ► just like going to the home screen to get my camera. But my point is I agree with you,

00:50:36 ◼   ► I don't want it to be this, I prefer, I wish it would go back but I think the reason that

00:50:39 ◼   ► they're doing it is like they're like oh we have these two things that mostly look the

00:50:43 ◼   ► same let's make them completely look the same. So it, I assume there's a hope that it will

00:50:49 ◼   ► make a more cohesive experience for people so they'll actually understand where they

00:50:52 ◼   ► are in the OS more but it does bring about a bunch of new issues and then I guess by

00:50:59 ◼   ► by iOS 12 will know which ones were the more difficult ones.

00:51:05 ◼   ► Well I'm still not sure so I think we're gonna...

00:51:08 ◼   ► I don't want it either, I'm not sure about it. I said I don't notice it because I kind

00:51:12 ◼   ► of don't care, it's like whatever. But maybe when it's on my iPhone, then I'm going to

00:51:17 ◼   ► be upset. But on my iPad it's like pfft, whatever man. But I just think it's like, this one

00:51:24 ◼   ► ain't changing I don't think. I think we've got all the changes we're going to get to

00:51:26 ◼   ► Notification Center now. I feel like it, yeah.

00:51:29 ◼   ► I think we're gonna get some more little changes but the decision has been made to go back to

00:51:36 ◼   ► this design in terms of gestures and swipes. I think we're gonna see more, not exactly sure

00:51:43 ◼   ► of the nature of what else we're gonna get in Beta 5. Maybe some other minor changes we'll

00:51:49 ◼   ► still get but at this point I would say it's pretty much locked down.

00:51:54 ◼   ► anything else? from beta 4 or notifications? from beta 4. so there's new icons for

00:52:04 ◼   ► kind of reminders which we'll get to in a minute. notes and contacts. the notes one has some

00:52:12 ◼   ► stitching it seems on top and the contacts one has changed like the the glyph on the icon. it's not

00:52:19 ◼   ► Stitching, it's high pay, I'm a paper guy, it's perforation.

00:52:22 ◼   ► - Sorry, okay, perforation, it's not stitching.

00:52:26 ◼   ► - When I look at it, it's like, that is like the thing

00:52:28 ◼   ► where you pull a pad out, right?

00:52:30 ◼   ► Got a piece of paper out of a pad, it's perforation.

00:52:33 ◼   ► - Yeah, all right.

00:52:34 ◼   ► And these new icons kind of join the App Store

00:52:38 ◼   ► and iTunes as the new icons on the home screen, iOS 11.

00:52:43 ◼   ► And I saw a tweet this morning from friend of the show

00:52:46 ◼   ► friend of everyone really, Steve Tratton Smith, on Twitter he looked into the code of iOS 11

00:52:52 ◼   ► Beta 4 and it seems like...

00:52:53 ◼   ► Wait, he looks into the code?

00:52:55 ◼   ► No.

00:52:56 ◼   ► I don't buy it.

00:52:57 ◼   ► Does he?

00:52:58 ◼   ► Steve Tratton Smith looks into the code?

00:52:59 ◼   ► Nah.

00:53:00 ◼   ► It's a little out of character I'll admit.

00:53:03 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:53:04 ◼   ► It's more like a mystic session.

00:53:07 ◼   ► It's down and, you know...

00:53:09 ◼   ► Thinks about the code.

00:53:11 ◼   ► And then the code comes to him.

00:53:13 ◼   ► And the content just kind of appears in a floating head of Scott Forstall in the air,

00:53:18 ◼   ► which is kind of weird.

00:53:20 ◼   ► But anyway, it appears that the new icons are meant, especially the reminders and the

00:53:26 ◼   ► contacts one were the result of some right to left code gone wrong.

00:53:31 ◼   ► So iOS 10 introduced support for right to left languages.

00:53:36 ◼   ► And with right to left, when the setting is enabled, even the icons are flipped, like

00:53:41 ◼   ► the entire UI is flipped horizontally so like you get the signal and the Wi-Fi on the right of the

00:53:46 ◼   ► status bar instead of being on the left and also some icons on the home screen change and I think

00:53:52 ◼   ► also on iOS 10 already the reminders icon and the old contacts icon they change they're flipped

00:53:58 ◼   ► so I'm not sure if the behavior is the same on iOS 10 but I assume it's gonna be on iOS 11 so the

00:54:06 ◼   ► reminders icon which is flipped right now in beta 4 I think it's gonna be reverted back to the

00:54:11 ◼   ► original one with the colored dots on the left by beta 5 because it's clearly a mistake.

00:54:16 ◼   ► It doesn't make sense to put the dots on the right when they're still on the left in the app.

00:54:20 ◼   ► More importantly, I guess for me the workflow extension has been fixed.

00:54:25 ◼   ► It didn't work in Safari before, it worked in other apps, but it couldn't be triggered in Safari.

00:54:30 ◼   ► So now that's been fixed. You can pull to refresh for updates on the App Store, which again for me

00:54:35 ◼   ► it's handy because I disabled auto-updates and

00:54:38 ◼   ► But I still want to be able to quickly check for updates to the apps that I have installed now

00:54:42 ◼   ► I have a manual way to do so that doesn't require me to tap 10 times or 15 times on the update tab of

00:54:49 ◼   ► The App Store, which is nice. That's about it Myke

00:54:52 ◼   ► These are the major

00:54:55 ◼   ► quote-unquote major changes in beta 4

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00:56:32 ◼   ► There's something that I wanted to quickly touch upon, which is the idea that I've seen

00:56:35 ◼   ► from some people on Twitter and forums of Apple not listening to feedback from folks

00:56:42 ◼   ► on the internet and people who provide feedback to Apple during the beta.

00:56:47 ◼   ► Some people think that these messages, this feedback, they affect no change at Apple and

00:56:54 ◼   ► that's totally not how it works.

00:56:56 ◼   ► the radar system is in place for one reason,

00:56:58 ◼   ► which is to submit feedback

00:56:59 ◼   ► and for engineers to gather that feedback

00:57:02 ◼   ► and to bring it to their managers to discuss

00:57:07 ◼   ► and to show proof that people are complaining,

00:57:09 ◼   ► that people are suggesting different implementations

00:57:12 ◼   ► and to provide feedback from different contexts,

00:57:16 ◼   ► like outside of the labs in Cupertino,

00:57:19 ◼   ► from folks who are actually using the beta

00:57:21 ◼   ► and if a feature is not working out,

00:57:23 ◼   ► let us understand why it's not working out.

00:57:25 ◼   ► And there's also the other approach that happens

00:57:28 ◼   ► behind the scenes of Apple reaching out to folks privately

00:57:31 ◼   ► to ask for feedback.

00:57:33 ◼   ► And that is the right approach, you know,

00:57:36 ◼   ► to gather responses from radar,

00:57:40 ◼   ► to, you know, to mark stuff as duplicate

00:57:43 ◼   ► and to show that information to a manager,

00:57:46 ◼   ► to reach out to people and be like,

00:57:50 ◼   ► help us understand what is it that you don't like?

00:57:53 ◼   ► because especially in this beta stage,

00:57:55 ◼   ► it is extremely important that we listen.

00:57:58 ◼   ► And Apple has been doing this time and time again.

00:58:01 ◼   ► And I know firsthand this happens

00:58:04 ◼   ► because Apple doesn't create software in a vacuum.

00:58:06 ◼   ► Like they are people that listen to other people.

00:58:11 ◼   ► And even if it doesn't look like, you know,

00:58:14 ◼   ► we've seen this in the past with the pencil and navigation,

00:58:18 ◼   ► now with the cover sheet and notifications,

00:58:20 ◼   ► when something isn't working,

00:58:22 ◼   ► And if something in, especially in an iOS beta,

00:58:25 ◼   ► you think it's not working well for a bunch of reasons,

00:58:29 ◼   ► you should complain about it on the internet

00:58:33 ◼   ► because it works.

00:58:34 ◼   ► And the idea that Apple creates software

00:58:38 ◼   ► on a throne of computers running Xcode

00:58:43 ◼   ► without listening to others, that's just crazy town.

00:58:47 ◼   ► It doesn't work that way.

00:58:49 ◼   ► And I thought that was funny

00:58:51 ◼   ► because I saw some folks on Twitter yesterday

00:58:54 ◼   ► share this idea again.

00:58:55 ◼   ► Yes, Apple has its own ideas.

00:58:58 ◼   ► They have their own motivations.

00:58:59 ◼   ► Sometimes we don't understand them,

00:59:01 ◼   ► but the majority of the time, in different ways,

00:59:06 ◼   ► they seek out feedback and they implement that feedback.

00:59:10 ◼   ► So just wanted to mention that.

00:59:13 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think that it's worth remembering

00:59:18 ◼   ► that there's a reason that they do the betas.

00:59:20 ◼   ► I reckon this is part of why the public beta's gone in,

00:59:23 ◼   ► so that they can monitor social media.

00:59:26 ◼   ► And I've been doing this myself,

00:59:29 ◼   ► like I've been running Twitter searches

00:59:31 ◼   ► just for like notification,

00:59:33 ◼   ► and have been just seeing these floods of people complaining

00:59:38 ◼   ► that their notifications don't work anymore.

00:59:41 ◼   ► And to assume that Apple aren't paying attention to that

00:59:44 ◼   ► is mind-boggling to me.

00:59:46 ◼   ► The idea that they are a company

00:59:48 ◼   ► that knows what we want before we do,

00:59:50 ◼   ► makes sense. But not when it comes to stuff like this, I don't think.

00:59:54 ◼   ► Like when it's new products and things like that, I can get it a bit more.

00:59:57 ◼   ► But when it's like these small changes to their operating system,

01:00:02 ◼   ► like I, I believe that they do pay attention.

01:00:07 ◼   ► And so I think it is worth talking about it.

01:00:09 ◼   ► It's worth us sharing our stories in the ways that we do.

01:00:12 ◼   ► It's worth people filing radars and it's worth people sending feedback through

01:00:17 ◼   ► the feedback app, right?

01:00:18 ◼   ► like these are worthwhile things to do

01:00:20 ◼   ► because it helps inform the future of the operating systems

01:00:23 ◼   ► that we enjoy to use.

01:00:25 ◼   ► - Yep.

01:00:26 ◼   ► I think some of that comes from like,

01:00:29 ◼   ► there are things Apple's not going to change, right?

01:00:31 ◼   ► If someone complains that the new multitasking

01:00:35 ◼   ► is too confusing, like Apple's not gonna go back on that.

01:00:37 ◼   ► But I think that they most definitely listen

01:00:40 ◼   ► to thoughtful feedback and if it's done in mass,

01:00:43 ◼   ► like a bunch of people are talking about it,

01:00:45 ◼   ► then they're at least going to look at it.

01:00:47 ◼   ► You may not always get what you want, but you--

01:00:50 ◼   ► - Sometimes get what you need, right?

01:00:52 ◼   ► - That's right, that's a very wise saying, Myke.

01:00:56 ◼   ► You should maybe write a song about that.

01:00:59 ◼   ► That'd be nice.

01:01:01 ◼   ► But they're definitely gonna listen if you're reasonable

01:01:03 ◼   ► and if you have other people who are feeling the same way.

01:01:07 ◼   ► And yes, there are things that are not gonna change

01:01:09 ◼   ► and there are things that there may

01:01:10 ◼   ► or there may be things that,

01:01:12 ◼   ► it's part of a longer narrative

01:01:16 ◼   ► and maybe they're not where they wanna be yet.

01:01:19 ◼   ► And so maybe in the middle ground,

01:01:22 ◼   ► where right now it's sort of strange

01:01:24 ◼   ► and you can't see the rest of it

01:01:25 ◼   ► until we're further down the road.

01:01:26 ◼   ► They're definitely those things in iOS 11, I think.

01:01:29 ◼   ► But overall, if you have feedback,

01:01:31 ◼   ► I think you should share it.

01:01:32 ◼   ► And you should share it in the feedback app,

01:01:34 ◼   ► you should follow radar.

01:01:35 ◼   ► If you know someone who could be helpful at Apple,

01:01:38 ◼   ► contact them.

01:01:39 ◼   ► But the idea that Apple doesn't listen

01:01:43 ◼   ► because one time it didn't change

01:01:45 ◼   ► the one thing I asked for I think is a little short-sighted so yeah I'm glad we

01:01:50 ◼   ► touched on this because I think it's been bugging the three of us for a

01:01:52 ◼   ► little while seeing some of this this talk. No we're all wrong. Yeah most

01:01:57 ◼   ► definitely. I've got to say and this this might be another one of those things

01:02:05 ◼   ► where like there are some times that the three of us we are in complete agreement

01:02:09 ◼   ► on something that I that sometimes can be confusing to people that like you

01:02:15 ◼   ► know this seems like perceived wisdom is that Apple has done a dumb thing but

01:02:19 ◼   ► we're all just like this is amazing and the thing that I want to talk about

01:02:24 ◼   ► today is the rock and Siri dominate the day. Yes. An ad that Apple put together

01:02:31 ◼   ► with... I don't really know how to describe how I feel about the rock but it is a

01:02:41 ◼   ► great love, respect, admiration. Maybe I'm a little attracted to him like I'm not sure

01:02:48 ◼   ► what it is. I can kind of relate to that. Yeah okay thank you Federico. I love him right

01:02:58 ◼   ► look I am a wrestling fan right so I the Rock has been a part of my life for most of my

01:03:03 ◼   ► life right I've known of the Rock longer than I have known you two you know we're not friends

01:03:08 ◼   ► Not us me and the rock. Wow, of course. We're not France anymore. I'm moving in with a rock

01:03:13 ◼   ► So good it is so good

01:03:19 ◼   ► Dormant feelings there are surfacing. I'll tell you right now. They ain't dormant, right?

01:03:25 ◼   ► It's been a long time but there was a period of time where I didn't like the rock

01:03:31 ◼   ► but like this is a wrestling thing now, which you don't need to know about but

01:03:35 ◼   ► No, we need to know about it. Well, okay

01:03:38 ◼   ► So there was a time period in which the rock had gone away and he'd gone to Hollywood, right?

01:03:42 ◼   ► And he'd gone and made a bunch of movies then he came back to the WWE and won the WWE Championship

01:03:48 ◼   ► Purely as a promotional thing, right?

01:03:51 ◼   ► So he could just promote the movies that he was working and then they gave it to him and I didn't think like he deserved

01:03:55 ◼   ► it at the time because there were people that were in the

01:03:57 ◼   ► WWE that I think needed it more and he got to headline to

01:04:00 ◼   ► WrestleMania's like year after year and I just thought well this doesn't make any sense because why is the rock here?

01:04:04 ◼   ► But then by the end of that period of time, you won me back over again.

01:04:07 ◼   ► So that's the reason.

01:04:08 ◼   ► You wanted it, you got it.

01:04:10 ◼   ► No, no, I'm glad, because now I know.

01:04:13 ◼   ► I appreciate that.

01:04:15 ◼   ► I agree with you.

01:04:16 ◼   ► It's a pretty awesome ad, and I was definitely one to make fun of it.

01:04:20 ◼   ► I had a tweet that I'm very proud of, making a Siri joke about The Rock.

01:04:24 ◼   ► But it's, A, it's super well produced, even though I have space complaints we're going

01:04:30 ◼   ► to get to.

01:04:31 ◼   ► But it is, it's fun, and it's like on brand for him and for Siri, like it kind of works

01:04:37 ◼   ► for what he does, right?

01:04:41 ◼   ► It's totally in his wheelhouse for how he presents himself in the media he does.

01:04:46 ◼   ► Yeah, I feel like maybe Apple hired his company to produce this because...

01:04:53 ◼   ► He had a tweet that said that, I think.

01:04:56 ◼   ► And that wouldn't surprise me.

01:04:57 ◼   ► Thanks to Apple and his company.

01:04:58 ◼   ► Seven bucks, I think is the name of his company.

01:05:01 ◼   ► 'Cause you know, that's the company that produces

01:05:04 ◼   ► all of the stuff that he does.

01:05:05 ◼   ► Because it is so on brand for The Rock, right?

01:05:10 ◼   ► Like, I don't know if somebody other than him

01:05:14 ◼   ► and the people that write for him could put this together

01:05:17 ◼   ► in the way that they did.

01:05:18 ◼   ► Like, it was perfect for him, right?

01:05:20 ◼   ► Even down to the idea that like, somebody dared to challenge

01:05:25 ◼   ► that he was too busy, so he was like, screw this.

01:05:28 ◼   ► I'm going to go out and the idea that the conceit of the ad is I'm going to go and achieve

01:05:33 ◼   ► all of my life goals before I have to go to set today.

01:05:36 ◼   ► Yeah. Yeah. Today, like this morning.

01:05:39 ◼   ► And there are like just a bunch of little things in it. Like, um, the wallpaper on his

01:05:43 ◼   ► phone is that nineties fanny pack photo of him, which I'm sure people are aware of, but

01:05:49 ◼   ► I'm going to put in the show notes and that's going to literally be the image in the show

01:05:52 ◼   ► notes today. Um, just so everyone can appreciate how the rock has changed. Uh, he did a, it

01:05:58 ◼   ► Did you see the thing that he did of SNL where he recreated it?

01:06:01 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:06:02 ◼   ► That was, that was pretty great.

01:06:03 ◼   ► That was pretty great.

01:06:04 ◼   ► No, I didn't see that.

01:06:07 ◼   ► I'll put a link to that in the show notes.

01:06:09 ◼   ► All right.

01:06:09 ◼   ► Thank you.

01:06:10 ◼   ► Cause he recreated the picture and it's, it's kind of wonderful.

01:06:13 ◼   ► Um, yeah, I just thought this was hilarious and actually I think did

01:06:21 ◼   ► a good job of showing off Siri.

01:06:23 ◼   ► Like, yeah, in a way, I honestly, I was expecting Siri to come out of this

01:06:28 ◼   ► looking a bit stupid, right? Like I thought it was gonna, you know, it was

01:06:33 ◼   ► gonna, like Ciri was gonna be like talking to, you know, like talking to him

01:06:37 ◼   ► or, you know, like a fake Ciri. Yeah, like it wasn't gonna work properly.

01:06:44 ◼   ► It was more of, it was more about The Rock than Ciri, really. I think it was clever

01:06:50 ◼   ► because it's showing how Ciri can help you like as a busy person in your

01:06:56 ◼   ► everyday life instead of making it more about C the character it's really about

01:07:00 ◼   ► C the software and The Rock as a very busy individual with a bunch of projects.

01:07:07 ◼   ► So I think that was a very clever idea to base the commercial on.

01:07:14 ◼   ► Yeah I think so too. And I mean for me it was like one of the one of the better ads

01:07:20 ◼   ► that Apple put together in a long time because it did a good job of showing off

01:07:24 ◼   ► the product which they don't always do sometimes the ads a little bit more

01:07:27 ◼   ► conceptual but then it also had a character to it and used a celebrity in

01:07:33 ◼   ► a really good way right as opposed to like just having the celebrity there

01:07:37 ◼   ► like they use the rock the way the rock should be used yeah I thought it was I

01:07:44 ◼   ► thought it was fantastic like I thought it was hilarious I've watched it twice

01:07:48 ◼   ► I thought it was great.

01:07:51 ◼   ► It felt in line with the, remember the Cookie Monster one?

01:07:54 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

01:07:55 ◼   ► Went on the show as well.

01:07:56 ◼   ► Where Cookie Monster is being Cookie Monster, but series they're like assisting.

01:08:02 ◼   ► And I think it's more so than some of the older ones they've done with celebrities.

01:08:06 ◼   ► But I agree with you, it's fun.

01:08:08 ◼   ► It is, I mean, even though I know it's a three minute ad, it feels like a little movie.

01:08:12 ◼   ► And that's how he, like so Sunday night he tweeted that, you know, "Hey, I did a movie

01:08:17 ◼   ► with Apple and like the three of us were like well why isn't it on YouTube, why isn't it on

01:08:21 ◼   ► Apple Music? But then it became clear throughout the course of the evening that it was going to be

01:08:24 ◼   ► an ad. But it feels big, right? There's lots of scenes, there's lots of different places,

01:08:30 ◼   ► and so yeah, I think it's good. There is a couple things I think worth pointing out. In the

01:08:38 ◼   ► description of the video, they link to Siri.com, which if you go to it, it actually redirects to

01:08:44 ◼   ► to a page on Apple's website that has a lot of the commands

01:08:47 ◼   ► that he is giving Siri in the video,

01:08:50 ◼   ► kind of walks you through what Siri can do.

01:08:52 ◼   ► But MKBHD put out a video last night

01:08:55 ◼   ► where he walks through all the commands

01:08:59 ◼   ► that the Rock gives Siri, and it performs pretty well.

01:09:02 ◼   ► I have to say, and I generally like MKBHD,

01:09:06 ◼   ► but his lack of day-to-day use of the iPhone

01:09:08 ◼   ► shows up in this video where he clearly

01:09:12 ◼   ► doesn't have any content on the phone.

01:09:14 ◼   ► he's working on, so a bunch of this stuff doesn't work.

01:09:17 ◼   ► I saw someone on Twitter, several people on Twitter,

01:09:20 ◼   ► including Kyle's the Gray, talking to him about,

01:09:23 ◼   ► well, like, the scene where he's asked the phone

01:09:28 ◼   ► to show him all of his fashion accessories,

01:09:29 ◼   ► you can do that on the phone if you have an album

01:09:31 ◼   ► in iCloud photo library, you know,

01:09:34 ◼   ► and you call that name up.

01:09:35 ◼   ► - Oh, okay.

01:09:36 ◼   ► - MKBHD missed that and sort of actually dinged Siri

01:09:40 ◼   ► for that, even though, like that's nitpicky,

01:09:42 ◼   ► But if you're doing a movie, picking apart an ad,

01:09:45 ◼   ► like you're already being nitpicky,

01:09:47 ◼   ► so I feel like it's fair to do that to him.

01:09:49 ◼   ► But all in all, like the stuff that is in the ad,

01:09:54 ◼   ► Siri can do all of that stuff.

01:09:56 ◼   ► Now it's all shortened and like, you know,

01:09:59 ◼   ► sped up because Siri takes longer than it does in the video,

01:10:02 ◼   ► but it can do all those things.

01:10:03 ◼   ► And so from a reality perspective of what Siri actually is

01:10:08 ◼   ► and what it offers, they got it all right.

01:10:11 ◼   ► which you would hope, right?

01:10:12 ◼   ► Hopefully Apple's not advertising something

01:10:14 ◼   ► that they can't do, but they did a really good job,

01:10:16 ◼   ► I think, with that.

01:10:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, the one thing I'll say is,

01:10:19 ◼   ► it's not, remember the ad that they,

01:10:22 ◼   ► or the video that they did for WWDC, right?

01:10:24 ◼   ► Like, apps were deleting from the phone

01:10:26 ◼   ► in a way that that doesn't happen, right?

01:10:29 ◼   ► So it's like, honestly, I was kind of expecting

01:10:32 ◼   ► that there might be something like that.

01:10:34 ◼   ► But yeah, luckily they didn't do that, which was good.

01:10:39 ◼   ► Like, I was concerned, it was like,

01:10:41 ◼   ► I don't know, Siri was gonna be able to transform the phone

01:10:44 ◼   ► into a robot, right?

01:10:45 ◼   ► Like that helped him save, you know what I mean?

01:10:47 ◼   ► It was just like, I was like,

01:10:48 ◼   ► "Oh God, where are they gonna go with this?"

01:10:50 ◼   ► - And it helps root the ad, right?

01:10:53 ◼   ► Like The Rock is doing all these things

01:10:54 ◼   ► that clearly a person can't do,

01:10:57 ◼   ► but Siri like roots in reality.

01:11:00 ◼   ► I think that's one reason the ad is so good.

01:11:02 ◼   ► - You know, The Rock would make for an excellent guest

01:11:06 ◼   ► at WWDC at the keynote,

01:11:09 ◼   ► Especially because it's so lovingly intimidating.

01:11:14 ◼   ► So like, I don't think developers would complain

01:11:17 ◼   ► about The Rock because he's The Rock.

01:11:19 ◼   ► So yeah, you know, would be much better than Drake.

01:11:24 ◼   ► Get The Rock on stage, talk about APIs,

01:11:26 ◼   ► talk about frameworks.

01:11:28 ◼   ► It's like The Rock, you're not messing with The Rock.

01:11:30 ◼   ► Let The Rock talk about the frameworks.

01:11:32 ◼   ► That would be amazing.

01:11:33 ◼   ► Also, do you think The Rock will adopt me

01:11:36 ◼   ► if I made an official request?

01:11:39 ◼   ► I would be upset but like... I would be fine I would be fine also as an older

01:11:43 ◼   ► brother that would work. Like if he was your older brother? Yeah yeah. Just super

01:11:51 ◼   ► quick right just while we're talking about The Rock, you've all seen the The

01:11:55 ◼   ► Rock 2020 thing right? Yes. Like there is a... There's a company that's been set up to

01:12:06 ◼   ► explore the possibility of Dwayne Johnson becoming the next president of

01:12:14 ◼   ► the United States. I'm not, for serious, like he could, he could do it, right? Like

01:12:23 ◼   ► if a celebrity's gonna do it. At this point anyone can do it. Literally anyone would be

01:12:29 ◼   ► better. Although he does steal a plane in this ad, we have to talk about that. He

01:12:35 ◼   ► hijacks a plane to go visit Federico. Maybe he's coming to adopt you Federico,

01:12:39 ◼   ► maybe that's why he's flying to Rome. Yeah he does go to Rome. That would be amazing.

01:12:42 ◼   ► Yeah. That would be amazing honestly. I did chuckle a plane fuel to go to Ohio.

01:12:49 ◼   ► It's not gonna make it to Rome. But can I talk about the space thing because... Oh yeah.

01:12:53 ◼   ► Yeah okay. Jason correctly predicted an upgrade yesterday that I would talk

01:12:56 ◼   ► about this and I'd already had these these notes in my head. The phone would be

01:13:01 ◼   ► broken just just broken as fill in the blank and like what do you mean in my

01:13:06 ◼   ► space like what it expected like what happens it would die it's so it's like

01:13:10 ◼   ► it's it's the the you know a phone dies if you leave it in your car overnight

01:13:14 ◼   ► when it's too cold outside and it can't work like space is way colder - and I'm

01:13:20 ◼   ► skimming the video because I saw a screenshot I wasn't sure it was true but

01:13:23 ◼   ► he the scene is really funny so he's like tethered to this space station or

01:13:28 ◼   ► or something, or to a spaceship,

01:13:31 ◼   ► and he's taking a selfie.

01:13:32 ◼   ► He's wearing AirPods, which I missed

01:13:35 ◼   ► the first time I watched it.

01:13:36 ◼   ► - Oh, I didn't notice that.

01:13:38 ◼   ► - So I guess that's how, so my initial complaint was,

01:13:41 ◼   ► sound doesn't carry in space.

01:13:43 ◼   ► And it's a half-knee. - Are you sure?

01:13:45 ◼   ► Are you sure it's cold?

01:13:46 ◼   ► Because the sun is in--

01:13:47 ◼   ► - Yeah, and the sun's super hot.

01:13:49 ◼   ► You've never been in space.

01:13:50 ◼   ► - So I think you're wrong. - Yeah.

01:13:52 ◼   ► - You can know, because the sun is up there.

01:13:54 ◼   ► I mean, it's hot here.

01:13:56 ◼   ► Imagine near the Sun must be super hot. Yeah, I bet it's way hotter than it is

01:14:01 ◼   ► That makes so much sense Federico. You should replace even on the space show

01:14:06 ◼   ► There I should have a space show. Yeah

01:14:09 ◼   ► I'm finding my official motion at the relay board. Okay

01:14:13 ◼   ► Fire Steven from the space show and replace even with me. Do you even know the name of my spaceship Federico?

01:14:20 ◼   ► No, I don't know the name

01:14:24 ◼   ► He's wearing AirPods, which I also found really funny because sound doesn't travel in space, but it's using Bluetooth so it totally works

01:14:30 ◼   ► And the line as the scene cuts away is I hope I don't create an eclipse which I find really funny like it's it's

01:14:37 ◼   ► I'm only talking about because I have a space podcast

01:14:40 ◼   ► But it's just a really funny scene to me even though the phone would totally die

01:14:43 ◼   ► The space podcast is called liftoff and it's great. So Jason's telling you we do own

01:14:47 ◼   ► liftoff dot space

01:14:52 ◼   ► something. Liftoff podcast.space? I don't know. And you also have an amazing

01:14:56 ◼   ► artwork and logo for the show. Yeah.

01:14:59 ◼   ► Liftoff podcast.space is the podcast Tumblr because we blog on Tumblr.

01:15:04 ◼   ► So yeah, so anyways I think we're all in agreement. This is a lot of fun.

01:15:08 ◼   ► It's really awesome

01:15:11 ◼   ► and like thumbs up from the connected crew,

01:15:14 ◼   ► right? We're in agreement? Yes. What about that? There we go.

01:15:18 ◼   ► I did not expect it to go this way guys. I really thought, I thought the two of you

01:15:21 ◼   ► would like it.

01:15:22 ◼   ► and I would hate it but I'm totally on board with it. It's a lot of fun.

01:15:25 ◼   ► That's strange to hear from you but I'm glad you enjoyed something that we also like.

01:15:31 ◼   ► It is. It does seem impossible some days.

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01:17:40 ◼   ► So in the spirit of Siri Federico, can you please teachy-teaches us about Siri improvements

01:17:49 ◼   ► coming in iOS 11?

01:17:51 ◼   ► All right there are many especially compared to last year but there's still some stuff

01:17:56 ◼   ► we can discuss. First one is Siri can now do translation between certain languages.

01:18:02 ◼   ► There's a specific command that you can ask Siri like translate a sentence to

01:18:10 ◼   ► another language and Siri is gonna reply with the native voice and the

01:18:16 ◼   ► transcription in the UI. So that appears to be working well for me. I tested of

01:18:21 ◼   ► course with Italian and English and the translation is surprisingly natural in

01:18:27 ◼   ► Italian and it sounds okay in English to me as well. So that's gonna be handy I

01:18:32 ◼   ► think. I don't have a list of languages, it's probably on the Apple website but

01:18:37 ◼   ► this is a nice addition to Siri. The other one which I'm really happy about

01:18:42 ◼   ► is the new voice. Again Apple shipped a higher quality voice for Siri and at

01:18:48 ◼   ► At this point it's starting to generally sound human, like the tone of the sentence, the

01:18:53 ◼   ► cadence of the way that Siri speaks, the pauses between different sentences in the same command,

01:19:03 ◼   ► or the same answer I should say, it's really natural now, especially compared to even last

01:19:10 ◼   ► year when Apple also released a higher quality version of Siri and in iOS 11 it's even better.

01:19:17 ◼   ► So I don't know what it is they're doing, but in terms of like the feeling of like a

01:19:22 ◼   ► natural voice, they're doing a pretty great job.

01:19:26 ◼   ► And I'm really happy about this.

01:19:29 ◼   ► In terms of developer changes, what we have is a bunch of improvements to the domains

01:19:35 ◼   ► that work with SiriKit, although not as many as we hoped.

01:19:40 ◼   ► So unsurprisingly, Apple is adding support for notes and list making intents.

01:19:47 ◼   ► So now you can save notes in third-party apps and add items to lists.

01:19:55 ◼   ► These are going to be used by note-taking apps and by task managers to allow you to

01:20:00 ◼   ► create notes, create tasks, search for them, mark them as complete, in the case of a list,

01:20:07 ◼   ► in the case of an item in a list.

01:20:09 ◼   ► And there's also a little more control that we can do here, for example as I mentioned you can search,

01:20:14 ◼   ► but also you can append text to an existing note for example,

01:20:21 ◼   ► so you can save text into a note that you already have into a third-party app

01:20:27 ◼   ► and you can save it to the bottom of the note, so you don't have to create multiple notes from scratch every single time,

01:20:32 ◼   ► which is really really handy.

01:20:34 ◼   ► And based on what we've seen so far,

01:20:37 ◼   ► so Ken K is from the Omni group, for example,

01:20:39 ◼   ► shared on Twitter that they're gonna add support

01:20:42 ◼   ► for Siri to OmniFocus.

01:20:43 ◼   ► So now OmniFocus, and I assume other task managers

01:20:46 ◼   ► like Todoist, for example, or Todo,

01:20:48 ◼   ► they will be able to get the same functionality

01:20:51 ◼   ► that you get with Reminders, for example.

01:20:53 ◼   ► You can set with the list intent,

01:20:56 ◼   ► you can set an item to have a due date.

01:20:59 ◼   ► I'm pretty sure you can also use a geofence alert,

01:21:03 ◼   ► you know, to fire a reminder when you enter or exit a location.

01:21:07 ◼   ► And this is going to be great because, you know, we all use note-taking apps,

01:21:12 ◼   ► we all use task managers,

01:21:13 ◼   ► and now to have the same parity between Apple Reminders and Apple Notes and

01:21:18 ◼   ► third-party apps, it's going to be real, real convenient.

01:21:20 ◼   ► I have tried a beta in iOS 11 with

01:21:26 ◼   ► just one with this SiriKit integration.

01:21:28 ◼   ► And one of the problems that I had was not necessarily about the command itself,

01:21:35 ◼   ► but in getting the name of the app recognized.

01:21:37 ◼   ► So Siri, I don't know if it was my accent, I was actually trying to spell it as well as I could.

01:21:43 ◼   ► But Siri didn't want to understand the name of the app that I was asking for.

01:21:50 ◼   ► And I looked into the documentation and developers can add some phonetic alternatives to their app names.

01:21:58 ◼   ► I'm not sure they can add completely different names.

01:22:02 ◼   ► Like I don't think OmniFocus, the developer can say instead of calling it OmniFocus, call it the Parpol Task Manager.

01:22:11 ◼   ► I'm not sure you can do that.

01:22:12 ◼   ► I think you can only do phonetic variations for people with different accents.

01:22:16 ◼   ► We'll have to see how well it works in practice.

01:22:20 ◼   ► In terms of, so I'm really happy about this.

01:22:22 ◼   ► Notes and lists, task managers use them all the time,

01:22:25 ◼   ► so this is gonna be nice.

01:22:26 ◼   ► There are other minor changes.

01:22:29 ◼   ► So if you have an app that has a QR code,

01:22:31 ◼   ► let's say Facebook Messenger or Twitter,

01:22:34 ◼   ► you know that these modern apps

01:22:35 ◼   ► that allow you to share your profile with a visual code,

01:22:39 ◼   ► now you can ask Siri to bring up that code for you.

01:22:43 ◼   ► So if you're on Snapchat or Messenger

01:22:45 ◼   ► and you want to share your code with other people,

01:22:47 ◼   ► you can ask Siri to bring it up and you'll be able to share from Siri. So it

01:22:52 ◼   ► doesn't allow you to scan the code with Siri, you gotta use the camera app on

01:22:57 ◼   ► iOS 11 which also supports QR codes of multiple types. So you can scan

01:23:03 ◼   ► contacts, you can scan links, even URL schemes from the iOS 11 camera. With

01:23:08 ◼   ► Siri you can just bring up the visual code. Also there are improvements to the

01:23:12 ◼   ► payment domain which I used once to send some money using PayPal worked

01:23:19 ◼   ► really well and now you will be able I think to look up your account

01:23:23 ◼   ► information so you should be able to view your history I guess and details

01:23:28 ◼   ► for your payment account and even change between different wallets in the same

01:23:35 ◼   ► accounts so like my checking or my savings account from the same map so

01:23:39 ◼   ► That's gonna be convenient if you use this stuff.

01:23:41 ◼   ► Basically, that's about it.

01:23:45 ◼   ► I should also mention that developers now have better control over the custom interfaces that they display in Siri.

01:23:52 ◼   ► So the SiriKit UI is more customizable than before and developers are free to

01:23:58 ◼   ► implement their own entire view controller in there. They have more control over

01:24:06 ◼   ► customizable interfaces and so every domain is gonna look more custom and more belonging to an app that in iOS 10, but

01:24:14 ◼   ► This is basically all the changes that we have in Siri. Can I ask a couple of questions? All right

01:24:20 ◼   ► Let's say for example

01:24:23 ◼   ► Todoist

01:24:24 ◼   ► was to work with this new

01:24:26 ◼   ► Adding a task stuff. Do you think it's possible that I could like give it the whole text in natural language?

01:24:34 ◼   ► And that it would be able to parse it?

01:24:36 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:24:37 ◼   ► So like if I said like, remind me, like ask to...

01:24:41 ◼   ► How do you trigger it?

01:24:42 ◼   ► How would I trigger it with Todoist?

01:24:44 ◼   ► So like last year, you would be able to say, as Apple calls it, like to verb the app name.

01:24:52 ◼   ► So like Todoist buy milk, and in theory you should be able to save a task called buy milk

01:24:58 ◼   ► by using the app name as a verb.

01:25:00 ◼   ► Or you could just say add a task in my Todoist or remind me about X and Y in Todoist, you

01:25:07 ◼   ► know, all the different ways.

01:25:09 ◼   ► And the great thing about SiriKit is that Siri takes care of this on its own.

01:25:13 ◼   ► Like the developer doesn't have to optimize for this natural language processing.

01:25:17 ◼   ► That's done by Apple.

01:25:19 ◼   ► And I assume that for due dates and for dates and times and locations, that's also done

01:25:24 ◼   ► by Siri.

01:25:25 ◼   ► So the developer, especially Todoist, which they already use natural language, they don't

01:25:30 ◼   ► have to do it twice because Siri is gonna take care of the dates for them.

01:25:33 ◼   ► Okay and so like there's still not a lot of areas that are being added right like

01:25:41 ◼   ► what is it like a small handful of new areas like new intents that are being

01:25:47 ◼   ► added here I think you know we were talking about this over WWDC time less

01:25:52 ◼   ► than we expected I think we're one of the things that I thought was it was a

01:25:55 ◼   ► dead set was more of these than what we ended up getting especially those around

01:25:59 ◼   ► audio. I mean you've watched all the sessions, you've looked at documentation, you've done

01:26:03 ◼   ► a bunch of research. Is there anything in there which suggests to you that this could

01:26:08 ◼   ► or would increase exponentially? Like are there any new underpinnings, is there anything

01:26:12 ◼   ► going on under the hood that would suggest it? Or would you still assume that they're

01:26:17 ◼   ► just going to keep adding these in piecemeal every year?

01:26:21 ◼   ► I think it's a combination of the two. Or I should say I'm more leaning towards the

01:26:25 ◼   ► second option they're gonna trickle down slowly to more types of apps.

01:26:32 ◼   ► The reason why I said it's combination of the two is because of audio. I think

01:26:38 ◼   ► Apple wanted to have AirPlay 2 in place before they did an audio domain for

01:26:44 ◼   ► SiriKit because I can imagine how they might want to expose to developers

01:26:49 ◼   ► comments like "play my unplayed episode from Overcast in the living room"

01:26:57 ◼   ► so I think if when they're gonna open up audio or a podcast domain whatever to

01:27:04 ◼   ► others I think they want to have Airplay 2 in place before so it makes sense to roll

01:27:11 ◼   ► out Airplay 2 this year and maybe you know next year have an audio intent in

01:27:16 ◼   ► Siri but in general besides audio in general I think they're being

01:27:23 ◼   ► extremely considerate and extremely slow with the rollout of domains and intents

01:27:29 ◼   ► because I like so many things could go wrong you know and I would like Apple to

01:27:35 ◼   ► have like a faster approach like when you look at stuff like Amazon what

01:27:41 ◼   ► they're doing with the with the echo like you have so many skills to choose

01:27:44 ◼   ► from but there's the problems like the differences that we always mention like

01:27:50 ◼   ► Siri works in more languages and it accounts for more natural language

01:27:55 ◼   ► queries so there are some differences there. Are Siri's skills

01:27:59 ◼   ► or whatever you would call them are they more complex than the Amazon Echo? Yeah

01:28:04 ◼   ► there are more interpretations for the same commands that you could ask in many

01:28:13 ◼   ► many more languages. So the same command can be asked in maybe more than a

01:28:19 ◼   ► dozen ways. Like all the different ways that in a language you can ask for the

01:28:23 ◼   ► same question. In theory Siri can do the same and you can multiply that for the

01:28:28 ◼   ► languages the Siri supports. So it's not like following a precise

01:28:34 ◼   ► set of instructions. It's more about like you have this language sandbox and you're

01:28:40 ◼   ► opening up to a specific intent, so a feature, and you gotta account for all

01:28:44 ◼   ► the variables, all the things that could go wrong there. So like what

01:28:48 ◼   ► happens if I instead of creating a note I actually delete one? And so you know

01:28:54 ◼   ► the primary difference between Siri and the Echo is that Siri

01:28:59 ◼   ► also has an interface and it works on more languages and Apple has a different

01:29:03 ◼   ► approach. So when you combine these three aspects you get these widely different

01:29:07 ◼   ► experiences. I like both of them. I like to be able to install all of these kinds

01:29:12 ◼   ► of crazy skills on my Echo. But also having used some SiriKit in the past,

01:29:18 ◼   ► I've been impressed. The UI is really well done and when it works, you know, it's

01:29:23 ◼   ► very clear, it's very transparent and I'm excited about the note-taking and the

01:29:28 ◼   ► task manager stuff because that's gonna be useful a lot because I don't use

01:29:33 ◼   ► reminders. I use Apple Notes and that's been great to save stuff quickly when

01:29:38 ◼   ► I'm driving. Especially now that iOS 11 has better Bluetooth in the car so

01:29:42 ◼   ► there's no more delay when you bring up Siri in the car. You can start talking

01:29:46 ◼   ► almost immediately. I've been saving a lot of notes with SiriKit and Apple

01:29:51 ◼   ► Notes so that works well. But I think it's not about like Apple laying the

01:29:57 ◼   ► ground work for a major revamp. I mean they might as well be and I just don't

01:30:00 ◼   ► know, we cannot notice. But I think I'm more inclined to say they actually have

01:30:06 ◼   ► just a slow approach because one, they like to be slow and considerate and two,

01:30:12 ◼   ► Siri has more of a complex structure than Skilled on the Echo.

01:30:19 ◼   ► Thank you Federico. Sure. If you want to find our show notes for this week head

01:30:25 ◼   ► on over to relay.fm/connected/152. I want to thank Eero, Mac Weldon

01:30:30 ◼   ► and freshbooks for supporting this week's episode. If you want to find more of Federico's

01:30:34 ◼   ► work online you can go to maxstories.net and you can follow him on twitter he is @vittici

01:30:39 ◼   ► v i t i c c i. Steven is at 512pixels.net and he is @ismh on twitter and I am @imyke.

01:30:49 ◼   ► We'll be back next time, until then, say goodbye guys.

01:30:53 ◼   ► Arrivederci. Adios.