Connected

00:00:00 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

00:00:02 ◼   ► Hello and welcome to Connected, episode 343.

00:00:12 ◼   ► It's made possible this week by our sponsors,

00:00:14 ◼   ► Privacy, Memberful, and Bombas.

00:00:18 ◼   ► My name is Stephen Hackett

00:00:19 ◼   ► and I'm joined by my friend, Mr. Myke Hurley.

00:00:21 ◼   ► - Hello.

00:00:23 ◼   ► - Hey bud.

00:00:24 ◼   ► - Hi, how are you?

00:00:25 ◼   ► - I am, I'm good, how are you?

00:00:27 ◼   ► - Excellent.

00:00:29 ◼   ► fine and dandy. Fine and dandy? Yeah, both. Well, let's see if Federico Vitticci can

00:00:34 ◼   ► top that. Federico, how are you? Buona sera, Steven Aket. How are you?

00:00:38 ◼   ► Oh, ciao. Bella. Why do you always say that? Ciao, Bella. It's just they go together, don't they? Well, sure, but there's...

00:00:52 ◼   ► This is like one of those... I don't know, like those...

00:00:56 ◼   ► I can't think of the wording really, but it's like a...

00:01:01 ◼   ► People say it. It's like just one of those phrases, like a pop culture phrase that doesn't really...

00:01:07 ◼   ► Well, you...

00:01:08 ◼   ► It doesn't really mean anything.

00:01:10 ◼   ► Well, for you!

00:01:11 ◼   ► Yeah, it doesn't really mean anything for me, you know?

00:01:14 ◼   ► Right.

00:01:15 ◼   ► It's like, say something a British person would say.

00:01:17 ◼   ► Like Tally Ho?

00:01:19 ◼   ► Yeah, there you go. No one says that nobody says that I have never heard someone say that unironically

00:01:26 ◼   ► Like it doesn't happen. You know

00:01:29 ◼   ► There's a chow Bella Italian grill here in the show. I mean why not right around the corner from my house?

00:01:35 ◼   ► Yeah, so I'll send you guys the website. Maybe you can pick something out border it online

00:01:40 ◼   ► Have delivered job. Ella. I have some

00:01:44 ◼   ► Tracking drama to share with you all. Whoo

00:01:49 ◼   ► Do you remember Chipolo the burrito company that was making AirTag clones?

00:01:54 ◼   ► Mm-hmm and Apple announced them and the dog cow bike on the same day. Yes

00:01:59 ◼   ► well

00:02:02 ◼   ► Chipolo has come out with an ad for the one spot which is their tracker that works with find my that's supposed to come out

00:02:10 ◼   ► I think it's in June and

00:02:12 ◼   ► This ad says attaches directly to your keyring no accessory

00:02:17 ◼   ► Needed and it's these pictures because this thing has a hole punched in it and it comes with a key ring

00:02:21 ◼   ► so you don't have to buy a $29 or

00:02:24 ◼   ► $449 luggage tag or something to attach this to your things. I mean, that's fine. I like the spice

00:02:32 ◼   ► yeah, I mean well, they've got to do something because

00:02:35 ◼   ► They don't really have much of a competitive edge at this point. Do they?

00:02:38 ◼   ► No, they don't. I think I said it in our episode covering the event

00:02:43 ◼   ► I love that the Apple person who when she was announcing this she's like we're

00:02:48 ◼   ► so glad to join the ecosystem of trackers I'm like what ecosystem you

00:02:53 ◼   ► announced two things a week ago that aren't shipping yet our ecosystem and

00:02:57 ◼   ► don't you forget it that's right it's like the the Obama meme with Obama put

00:03:03 ◼   ► in a given himself a medal have you ever seen that it's kind of like that oh yeah

00:03:09 ◼   ► like with someone's Photoshop himself. So I'm just, you know, I'm staying on top of these,

00:03:16 ◼   ► these other find my device makers because I'm convinced this thing is never going to ship.

00:03:22 ◼   ► The Chipolo? Yeah. I mean, it may. I'm on their list to be told when it's available.

00:03:29 ◼   ► I'm on Team Chipolo myself. I believe in them. I mean, only, only like in, in spirit. I'm not

00:03:38 ◼   ► not gonna buy a Chipolo, but I like to say I'm on Team Chipolo. You're not really on

00:03:42 ◼   ► the team then, are you? That's a nice ring to it though. Say I'm on Team Chipolo. I feel

00:03:47 ◼   ► like to be on their team you kind of need to buy their product, otherwise you're kind

00:03:51 ◼   ► of, I don't know, you're just like an admirer. Sure, I guess I'm a Chipolo admirer. Yes.

00:03:57 ◼   ► Whatever floats your boat. iOS 14.5 has come out. That is true. Is it anything we should

00:04:04 ◼   ► about in there? Well, there's a bunch of things and to me usually the proof of

00:04:09 ◼   ► like the popularity of certain features is how long it takes my quote-unquote

00:04:16 ◼   ► "normal friends" to mention them to me. And sure enough today I was able to meet

00:04:23 ◼   ► up with a bunch of friends and one of them immediately said "oh by the way I

00:04:27 ◼   ► did the software update yesterday because of the the face ID with the mask unlock."

00:04:32 ◼   ► I was like, there you go.

00:04:34 ◼   ► Of course you like, I had a feeling that this was gonna be

00:04:37 ◼   ► like the feature for people and the fact that it took,

00:04:41 ◼   ► well, like basically two days for,

00:04:44 ◼   ► to hear the first mention,

00:04:45 ◼   ► I think it's a pretty good sign

00:04:47 ◼   ► that this is gonna be popular.

00:04:48 ◼   ► And my friend's assessment of the functionality

00:04:52 ◼   ► is pretty much what we've all been saying.

00:04:54 ◼   ► Like it's not perfect.

00:04:56 ◼   ► Sometimes it gets it wrong and it still asks me

00:04:59 ◼   ► for a passcode, but overall,

00:05:01 ◼   ► Like this is so much better than before.

00:05:03 ◼   ► And yeah, that's essentially what this feature does.

00:05:06 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's been my experience

00:05:08 ◼   ► 'cause I ran the 14.5 beta,

00:05:10 ◼   ► but I did not put the beta on my Apple Watch.

00:05:12 ◼   ► And so this is the first time I've gotten to use it.

00:05:14 ◼   ► It's really pretty great.

00:05:16 ◼   ► I agree that on occasion I've had it miss,

00:05:19 ◼   ► but I'd say nine times out of 10,

00:05:21 ◼   ► it does what it's supposed to do.

00:05:23 ◼   ► I shared this on the MPU episode that's coming out Sunday,

00:05:26 ◼   ► but Mary had heard about this.

00:05:28 ◼   ► Like they were talking about it at work

00:05:30 ◼   ► and she's like, "Hey, can you update my phone?"

00:05:34 ◼   ► - I mean, this is a legit thing.

00:05:35 ◼   ► If you have an Apple Watch and an iPhone,

00:05:38 ◼   ► oh my God, like this is awesome, right?

00:05:40 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, super cool.

00:05:42 ◼   ► - I want to mention, so regarding these other 14.5 feature,

00:05:47 ◼   ► app tracking transparency, we've been talking about this,

00:05:51 ◼   ► Apple has been talking about it,

00:05:52 ◼   ► there's a bunch of interviews that you should watch.

00:05:54 ◼   ► I recommend the Craig Federighi one with Joanna Stern

00:05:58 ◼   ► at the Wall Street Journal, which is a good one.

00:06:01 ◼   ► - Oh, I have that one to watch.

00:06:02 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's really good.

00:06:04 ◼   ► I have been told by a couple of Mac Stories readers

00:06:08 ◼   ► that it appears that quite a few people

00:06:12 ◼   ► cannot enable this setting,

00:06:14 ◼   ► and there's an entire thread on Reddit,

00:06:17 ◼   ► as well as on the Apple support forums,

00:06:19 ◼   ► about the fact that a lot of people, it seems,

00:06:23 ◼   ► they see this option, but it's grayed out,

00:06:26 ◼   ► and they cannot enable this setting.

00:06:28 ◼   ► So...

00:06:29 ◼   ► What, like the overall one?

00:06:32 ◼   ► Is that what we're talking about?

00:06:33 ◼   ► The overall, like the overall one,

00:06:36 ◼   ► the overall toggle in app tracking transparency.

00:06:40 ◼   ► So under the settings privacy screen,

00:06:43 ◼   ► it appears that it's grayed out for quite a few people.

00:06:46 ◼   ► And yeah, I just wanted to mention,

00:06:49 ◼   ► I'm going to try and find the link that I was sent.

00:06:51 ◼   ► So if you're...

00:06:52 ◼   ► Could it be that like,

00:06:53 ◼   ► maybe these people just haven't had any apps

00:06:55 ◼   ► of trying to do it? No, because you should still be able to interact with the toggle,

00:07:00 ◼   ► and instead it's just grayed out, like if it's not available at all. So I'm going to try and find the

00:07:06 ◼   ► discussion thread, so if you've been having this issue, check it out because there's plenty of

00:07:10 ◼   ► other people like you. Yeah, Apple actually released a support document yesterday talking

00:07:17 ◼   ► about this, and my guess is that it's buggy and it affects more than these people, but Apple says,

00:07:24 ◼   ► If you are under the age of 18, so you have like a minor Apple ID account, you can't set

00:07:32 ◼   ► it.

00:07:33 ◼   ► If your Apple ID is managed by an educational institution or uses certain types of configuration

00:07:39 ◼   ► profiles that you may not be able to use it.

00:07:42 ◼   ► And if your Apple ID was created in the last three days.

00:07:45 ◼   ► Now my guess is that, like I said, it's buggy and there are people who are running into

00:07:49 ◼   ► this who don't fall into those buckets.

00:07:52 ◼   ► least Apple has said under some circumstances this is expected behavior. So I guess what in those

00:07:59 ◼   ► instances either the parent or the educational institution will do it for you or it's off by

00:08:05 ◼   ► default? It's off by default so an app can't. So you just can't turn it on? Yeah so it's it's

00:08:11 ◼   ► interesting I'd imagine that there'll be a 14.5.1 or something that maybe fixes this for some other

00:08:17 ◼   ► people. There's also a new emoji, but I guess we're gonna talk about that later

00:08:22 ◼   ► in the show. We're gonna play our usual fun games for this new emoji.

00:08:29 ◼   ► And I also wanted to mention, so if you're new to 14.5, I would recommend, we

00:08:38 ◼   ► talked about this before, play around with Siri. There's a bunch of new Siri

00:08:42 ◼   ► features, but I particularly want to call out the integration with third-party

00:08:47 ◼   ► music players. So if you're a Spotify person or if you use Tidal or Amazon Music or any

00:08:52 ◼   ► other compatible music streaming service, you can now play your music with Siri using

00:08:58 ◼   ► those services. In addition, this integration extends to other kinds of audio apps, so you

00:09:05 ◼   ► should also be able to use Siri with third-party podcast clients as well as audiobook players.

00:09:12 ◼   ► I was asked by some people on Twitter,

00:09:15 ◼   ► why is the Apple Books app showing up

00:09:17 ◼   ► in the Siri permission prompt?

00:09:19 ◼   ► And that is because books can play audio books as well.

00:09:23 ◼   ► So for music, podcasts, and audio books,

00:09:27 ◼   ► you can now take advantage of the Siri integration.

00:09:29 ◼   ► And lastly, I wanna call out an Apple Music feature,

00:09:33 ◼   ► which is the ability to share lyrics,

00:09:35 ◼   ► to share real-time lyrics from the music app.

00:09:39 ◼   ► This is really nicely done for songs

00:09:42 ◼   ► that have real-time lyrics,

00:09:44 ◼   ► you can now long press on any line of text,

00:09:47 ◼   ► and doing that will bring up this custom version

00:09:51 ◼   ► of the share sheet.

00:09:52 ◼   ► I say custom because I'm pretty sure Apple

00:09:54 ◼   ► is using a private API,

00:09:56 ◼   ► where at the bottom you see your usual extensions.

00:09:59 ◼   ► But at the top you can scroll your lyrics

00:10:03 ◼   ► and select the ones that you wanna share.

00:10:06 ◼   ► And once you've selected some lyrics,

00:10:08 ◼   ► you can either make a story for the Instagram or Facebook apps,

00:10:13 ◼   ► or you can share a little lyrics snippet over iMessage.

00:10:19 ◼   ► And on iMessage, it's nice because it's also an audio player itself,

00:10:23 ◼   ► so this special message that you send,

00:10:26 ◼   ► it shows you the lyrics that you've selected,

00:10:28 ◼   ► but it also comes with a play button.

00:10:30 ◼   ► And if you hit play in iMessage,

00:10:32 ◼   ► the song plays at the exact spot where you shared the lyrics.

00:10:37 ◼   ► It's really nicely done. So, really nice Apple Music feature. It is April, the end

00:10:45 ◼   ► of April as we record this, and we are getting ready to start releasing our

00:10:50 ◼   ► annual specials for Relay FM members. We used to do this in the fall, but with new

00:10:56 ◼   ► iPhones and the Podcast-a-thon for St. Jude and other stuff, we wanted to move

00:11:01 ◼   ► these to the spring this year. So these are gonna kick off Thursday, April 29th

00:11:07 ◼   ► connected is actually going first just kind of how it worked out the three of

00:11:12 ◼   ► us have created something special very special very special very special can

00:11:19 ◼   ► you guess what it might be about things you will enjoy it we're always enjoy it

00:11:25 ◼   ► the rest of special for you so if you are a relay FM member be sure you

00:11:35 ◼   ► subscribed to the crossover feed and in member full. And if you're not a relay

00:11:39 ◼   ► FM member and you want to check that out and a whole bunch of other annual

00:11:43 ◼   ► specials, a bunch of shows across the network are doing it. Uh, you can join,

00:11:47 ◼   ► you can learn more about the membership program, uh, at relay.fm/membership, or

00:11:53 ◼   ► you can join connected and you will also get a longer ad free version of this

00:11:58 ◼   ► show by going to relay.fm/connected/join. Yeah. And they're going to be

00:12:04 ◼   ► throughout the whole month, right?

00:12:05 ◼   ► There's going to be a bunch of specials coming out from some of your favorite

00:12:08 ◼   ► programs throughout all of may. Uh, and so it's going to be, uh,

00:12:11 ◼   ► it's going to be a lot of fun. Let's take a break and then get into some news.

00:12:14 ◼   ► How does that sound? All right. Love. Oh, I love news. Yes.

00:12:17 ◼   ► News is great. Give me the news. Is this news?

00:12:23 ◼   ► Is it? This is supposed to be an ad. Okay. Give me the ad.

00:12:27 ◼   ► This episode of connected is brought to you by privacy.com.

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00:14:29 ◼   ► Our thanks to privacy for their support of the show and relay FM. Oh boy. Yeah.

00:14:38 ◼   ► How do we start this? We're gonna talk about Basecamp. Yeah. I mean it's

00:14:46 ◼   ► probably a fair expectation that the majority of our listeners will have

00:14:53 ◼   ► heard about this story. I mean it was trending worldwide on Twitter at one point. Basically

00:15:01 ◼   ► the founders of Basecamp and Hay, Jason Fried and David Hanomayah Hanson put out a couple

00:15:08 ◼   ► of blog posts which affected, I mean the thing that people were really holding onto and talking

00:15:17 ◼   ► about, basically talking about changes at the company like Basecamp which includes Basecamp

00:15:21 ◼   ► and hey. And the thing that has gotten the most conversation is a heading

00:15:28 ◼   ► referring to no more societal and political discussions at Basecamp or and

00:15:35 ◼   ► then it had been edited to on our company Basecamp account. Stephen can you

00:15:39 ◼   ► help me to talk about this? I'm really struggling to introduce this. We have a

00:15:44 ◼   ► lot to say but kind of setting the stage is tricky. It is tricky, due in no small

00:15:49 ◼   ► apart because they have changed those two blog posts repeatedly.

00:15:53 ◼   ► Uh, I think if you, if you haven't kept up with this, the thing, the one thing I

00:15:58 ◼   ► would read first is an article on the verge by Casey Newton called, uh, behind

00:16:04 ◼   ► the controversy at base camp.

00:16:05 ◼   ► And it really kind of sets the stage for what happened.

00:16:09 ◼   ► And he talks to some employees.

00:16:11 ◼   ► I mean, Casey Newton does a better job than anybody at talking about

00:16:14 ◼   ► what's going on inside companies.

00:16:15 ◼   ► And so I would, I would go look at their article first.

00:16:19 ◼   ► Basically, the gist of this is, and these posts had other things, but again, this heading is really what's garnered a lot of the attention. Initially, as it was written, they said that these, these conversations about about politics about things going on in the world, we're done with it at base camp, and they they go on a little bit later, kind of come back to that and say we are not a social impact company.

00:16:49 ◼   ► Our impact is contained to what we do and how we do it.

00:16:53 ◼   ► And the reason this blew up and the reason

00:16:56 ◼   ► that we wanna talk about it is not necessarily

00:17:00 ◼   ► their decision, although I think it's the wrong one,

00:17:04 ◼   ► but what this decision means in terms of people

00:17:09 ◼   ► who already feel marginalized in the tech community.

00:17:13 ◼   ► So people of color, women, very often are the smallest

00:17:18 ◼   ► groups in a room, right? Tech is dominated by people who look like us. And when this

00:17:26 ◼   ► sort of thing is shared and said, it takes away what voice or platform those people feel

00:17:35 ◼   ► like they have, and they feel like their ability to speak up about things is taken away. And

00:17:42 ◼   ► that's why this is such a big deal, because that's what this does. Now, we can get into

00:17:46 ◼   ► the weeds and I'm sure we will, but I think that's sort of why this is such a big conversation right

00:17:52 ◼   ► now. Yeah, and I feel like I struggle to an extent because I've never worked at a company.

00:18:00 ◼   ► I've never actually worked for, you know, no more than one person. I had a job when I was 19 and I

00:18:11 ◼   ► I had a boss and that was just him.

00:18:14 ◼   ► I've never worked in an office environment.

00:18:16 ◼   ► I've never worked at a company.

00:18:18 ◼   ► However, I think I've been around people who do long enough

00:18:23 ◼   ► and I've been exposed to the sort of Silicon Valley culture

00:18:29 ◼   ► long enough that I think I know what's going on.

00:18:33 ◼   ► And I think I can identify the problems with this,

00:18:37 ◼   ► even though I've never worked at a company myself,

00:18:40 ◼   ► even though I think some ideas and some topics

00:18:45 ◼   ► are pretty universal, and you don't need to know

00:18:48 ◼   ► the details or the specifics of how Basecamp operates.

00:18:53 ◼   ► Because in this story, for me, there's some universal

00:18:58 ◼   ► concepts that I think deserve an explanation,

00:19:01 ◼   ► that I think deserve explaining

00:19:03 ◼   ► and helping others understand.

00:19:05 ◼   ► And I don't think you need to be an expert

00:19:08 ◼   ► in different types of tech companies to relate and to understand and to get upset at some

00:19:16 ◼   ► of these decisions.

00:19:17 ◼   ► Yeah, I think that's fair. The thing that really drives it home is some of the response

00:19:24 ◼   ► from people within Basecamp and their leadership. Mostly DHH has continued to blog about it

00:19:33 ◼   ► and talk about some of the things that happen behind the scenes. A lot of it that Casey

00:19:37 ◼   ► reported on initially. I do want to go through the rest of some of their statements because

00:19:44 ◼   ► I think that while this one is really the heart of it, there are other things that are

00:19:48 ◼   ► worth talking about. And I know there are people listening who have already said, like,

00:19:54 ◼   ► why does everything have to be political? And that is the world that we live in. It's

00:20:03 ◼   ► always been the case that issues of racism and sexism and nationalism, they intersect

00:20:12 ◼   ► with politics because in the United States and in countries around the world, those things

00:20:18 ◼   ► have been either fought against or embraced by politicians over time.

00:20:26 ◼   ► stop right there. I think it's pretty, I don't, I think this is pretty much true.

00:20:33 ◼   ► All the time that, like every time I see somebody say, "Why does everything need to be so, so

00:20:39 ◼   ► polli-, everything has to be political? Why is everything so complicated these days? Why

00:20:44 ◼   ► do I need to pay attention to the words I use, to the phrases I use?" 90% of the, maybe

00:20:50 ◼   ► even 95% of the time, the person that says those things

00:20:55 ◼   ► is a white male and not part of any minority whatsoever.

00:21:00 ◼   ► And so right there, there's the first issue for me,

00:21:03 ◼   ► which is the complaining that things are political

00:21:07 ◼   ► or that you need to sanitize the way you speak

00:21:12 ◼   ► or that you need to pay too much attention.

00:21:15 ◼   ► Oh, the good old days when we could say whatever we wanted

00:21:18 ◼   ► and everything was so much easier.

00:21:20 ◼   ► Usually it comes from a very specific type of person.

00:21:25 ◼   ► - These types of things, race, gender, equality,

00:21:28 ◼   ► stuff like that, they shouldn't be things

00:21:31 ◼   ► that we should have to debate.

00:21:33 ◼   ► These are things that everybody should be accepting

00:21:38 ◼   ► and we should all be equal, but it is just not the case.

00:21:41 ◼   ► It just isn't how it is.

00:21:43 ◼   ► People aren't this way.

00:21:45 ◼   ► So these issues become political or argued about or debated

00:21:50 ◼   ► because these people have to do that

00:21:58 ◼   ► to make the change that they want, right?

00:22:02 ◼   ► Because they are put into these boxes

00:22:07 ◼   ► or tried to be like pushed to the side.

00:22:10 ◼   ► So you have to speak up.

00:22:12 ◼   ► and people that want to have things

00:22:15 ◼   ► remaining exactly the same push back against that

00:22:19 ◼   ► because they don't want their lives to change.

00:22:23 ◼   ► So then you then have two people with completely different,

00:22:28 ◼   ► two sets of people with completely opposing objectives.

00:22:31 ◼   ► So then it becomes like politics

00:22:33 ◼   ► because it becomes debates, it becomes fights,

00:22:35 ◼   ► we get protests and stuff like that.

00:22:37 ◼   ► But this is purely because individuals in these

00:22:41 ◼   ► either underrepresented communities or of backgrounds that are not considered to be

00:22:51 ◼   ► the old way or whatever.

00:22:53 ◼   ► Like I can't think of a good phrase for it, but like mostly it's like underrepresented

00:22:56 ◼   ► communities, right?

00:22:58 ◼   ► They have to speak up.

00:23:01 ◼   ► And when you say, "We don't want to have these conversations anymore," what you are saying

00:23:08 ◼   ► is those people do not get their voice. Because they have to speak up to change people's minds,

00:23:16 ◼   ► right? So if you say you'd prefer them to not happen at work, what you're saying is,

00:23:23 ◼   ► we just don't want to deal with your thing. Yeah, you are... and maybe this is too much of a... no,

00:23:29 ◼   ► I don't think it's too much of a strong word, actually, I'm gonna say it. I think that is a

00:23:33 ◼   ► dehumanizing approach because you are effectively saying to those people, "uh, yeah, sure, but

00:23:41 ◼   ► we don't really care." Like, it's like as soon as these people were finding their voice,

00:23:47 ◼   ► it's like, "nah, you know, I don't like this. Can you just stop doing that?" Like, "yeah,

00:23:50 ◼   ► I don't want to deal with that." It's like, you know, you're not really, you're not fixing

00:23:55 ◼   ► the problem, obviously, you're making it much worse. And this is really the core of the

00:24:01 ◼   ► issue for me, especially with the DHH blog posts. These posts are meant to be, I guess, they are

00:24:12 ◼   ► advertised as these deep thoughts, right? On this, you know, and all these fancy words used in these

00:24:20 ◼   ► posts, like this deep, like, "Oh, let me tell you the truth. Let me talk to you about tech company

00:24:28 ◼   ► culture where all this post is saying is, "Yeah, I've done some pretty racist things,

00:24:39 ◼   ► but I get to decide what should be considered racist, not the person that comes with the

00:24:44 ◼   ► complaint to me. So I, the white man, and also your boss, have decided that this is

00:24:50 ◼   ► not racist behavior. And also, you're not going to talk about this anymore on company

00:24:55 ◼   ► It's like...

00:24:57 ◼   ► Like, I can even begin to...

00:25:01 ◼   ► It's very frustrating because it's like they're making it worse. On each post that comes out,

00:25:09 ◼   ► they're just making it worse.

00:25:11 ◼   ► And on the other side of this, you have

00:25:16 ◼   ► all... you have, you know, people who feel

00:25:23 ◼   ► represented in the tech community, people who are part of a minority group, you know,

00:25:29 ◼   ► in respect to where they work at Basecamp, and they just wanted to voice

00:25:37 ◼   ► their concerns on past behaviors. You can get more details on this in the

00:25:42 ◼   ► Verge article, but basically we're talking about the fact that at Basecamp,

00:25:46 ◼   ► about a decade ago, some employees of the company, they started keeping a

00:25:52 ◼   ► list of "funny names" of customers of Basecamp that, according to those employees, had funny-sounding,

00:26:02 ◼   ► I guess, foreign names, right? And it was one of those things that seemed to start relatively

00:26:09 ◼   ► innocuous. It was like Simpsons characters, like, you know, like superhe- and then over time

00:26:15 ◼   ► started to morph into these names sound funny

00:26:20 ◼   ► and what is funny about them

00:26:21 ◼   ► is they are not Anglo-Saxon names.

00:26:24 ◼   ► - Yes, so the first,

00:26:26 ◼   ► like that right there is the first problem.

00:26:28 ◼   ► Like anything that doesn't sound like English to you

00:26:33 ◼   ► is considered funny

00:26:34 ◼   ► and you're keeping a running list of those names.

00:26:36 ◼   ► Like there's a privacy angle there also,

00:26:39 ◼   ► but set aside the privacy concern

00:26:42 ◼   ► that you're keeping a list of random customers and passing it around the office. Okay. Pretty

00:26:49 ◼   ► sure that's a privacy violation, but still set aside that there's also the human aspect

00:26:54 ◼   ► of this. Like it's not cool just that, you know, to keep a list of people with like,

00:27:02 ◼   ► am I because I'm Italian, is my name funny sounding to you? Like are you making fun of

00:27:06 ◼   ► me because I'm not American and this applies also obviously to to to you know all kinds of non

00:27:13 ◼   ► background all kinds of backgrounds and like look look we've all changed yes right yes maybe

00:27:22 ◼   ► over the last 10 years thankfully people were changing fully and thankfully in the right

00:27:27 ◼   ► directions so to you know to have a thing that was started a long time ago that is wrong by today's

00:27:34 ◼   ► standards. That's one situation and we can look at it and be like we were wrong

00:27:38 ◼   ► for doing that and we apologize but the way that the reporting comes through

00:27:43 ◼   ► from The Verge seems to suggest that instead of just apologizing there was a

00:27:48 ◼   ► lot of fighting and being like you can't complain about it you did it too from

00:27:52 ◼   ► the founders of the company and it's like yeah you're not setting an

00:27:56 ◼   ► environment where people like one you should be learning and growing and two

00:28:01 ◼   ► you need to set the example that other people can too.

00:28:05 ◼   ► Like, you can't just be like,

00:28:07 ◼   ► "Oh, how can you complain about it or say it's wrong?

00:28:09 ◼   ► I have proof that you added to the list."

00:28:11 ◼   ► And it's like, what kind, like, what are you, a child?

00:28:14 ◼   ► - And that is so wrong, right?

00:28:15 ◼   ► Also like shaming somebody in the company message board,

00:28:20 ◼   ► like in front of everybody.

00:28:22 ◼   ► Like, first of all, like, what kind of,

00:28:25 ◼   ► do you think that's what a good boss would do?

00:28:29 ◼   ► - Yeah, and the weird thing is,

00:28:31 ◼   ► for all intents and purposes,

00:28:33 ◼   ► it seems like it was this conversation

00:28:36 ◼   ► that created this decree.

00:28:39 ◼   ► It's like, why did you jump from that to this?

00:28:42 ◼   ► That's such an overreaction.

00:28:44 ◼   ► And so this is why people look at this,

00:28:46 ◼   ► and I don't know this is the case,

00:28:49 ◼   ► but you can't help but look at it and be like,

00:28:51 ◼   ► you've just been waiting.

00:28:53 ◼   ► - Yeah, or there's like,

00:28:55 ◼   ► and there's gotta be way more behind the scenes.

00:28:57 ◼   ► And it seems like another aspect of this story that sort of caused this kind of reaction

00:29:06 ◼   ► was how a bunch of people at Basecamp started sharing this image that I was familiar with

00:29:13 ◼   ► before and now I've actually been reading some more about it.

00:29:20 ◼   ► It's a pyramid, it's this illustration made by the Anti-Defamation League and it shows

00:29:25 ◼   ► how, this illustration of a pyramid, and it shows how at the very basic level there's

00:29:33 ◼   ► things like microaggressions, right? And the idea is that hate and racism starts from the

00:29:41 ◼   ► bottom and eventually, layer by layer, you get to genocide, basically. And yes, we thank

00:29:52 ◼   ► you Ian for sharing that photo in the discord. And the idea is that it starts so simple,

00:29:59 ◼   ► right? With some insensitive remarks, with some stereotypes, again microaggressions,

00:30:07 ◼   ► having your language be non-inclusive, and eventually as you get higher and higher in

00:30:11 ◼   ► the pyramid, the violence escalates, right? And this image is meant to show how it's important

00:30:19 ◼   ► to understand the concept of inclusivity and your biases, because we're all, especially

00:30:28 ◼   ► people like the three of us, we all have our biases and we've been growing up, we had to

00:30:35 ◼   ► fight those biases and we had to understand our privilege and trying to use it for good,

00:30:44 ◼   ► I hope.

00:30:45 ◼   ► Yeah, and none of us claim to be perfect.

00:30:47 ◼   ► No, not at all.

00:30:49 ◼   ► at all. And I still, you know, again, it's the small things and I think it's important

00:30:54 ◼   ► to understand that. Sometimes I get the pronoun of somebody wrong, but I don't get upset if

00:31:01 ◼   ► somebody corrects me, right? That's the point, right, of improving. You shut up, you listen,

00:31:07 ◼   ► you apologize, and you do better. And this is the virtual cycle. Yeah, it's like, another

00:31:13 ◼   ► example of this is when, you know, a number of years ago, I don't remember, when people

00:31:18 ◼   ► would start using, would start putting their pronouns into Twitter bios and in public forums.

00:31:26 ◼   ► And I used to think, why do I need to do that? Everyone knows I'm a guy, like I don't need

00:31:30 ◼   ► to do that. And like, and I would see people do it and it was like, and I was just like,

00:31:34 ◼   ► I don't know why you're doing this. Like everybody knows that you're a guy. Why are you putting

00:31:40 ◼   ► like, he/him pronouns in your bio? Like I don't understand what's the point of that.

00:31:46 ◼   ► And then as time has gone on, I've understood, "Oh, this is normalising by me doing it, by

00:31:52 ◼   ► all of us doing this stuff."

00:31:55 ◼   ► And again, it's like in having this kind of conversation today, what we are doing is playing

00:32:02 ◼   ► our part to show to everyone that this is normal.

00:32:07 ◼   ► So then the people that are doing it don't have to feel like they have this spotlight

00:32:12 ◼   ► on them.

00:32:13 ◼   ► as like the only people that would do this are people that need you to know.

00:32:18 ◼   ► Like, no, that's like the exact wrong thing to do.

00:32:21 ◼   ► So it's like, you know, but like these are the things where that seems like such a small thing to me

00:32:26 ◼   ► to like, "Ah, I don't need to do this."

00:32:28 ◼   ► But by doing it, by just once making a change to my Twitter bio,

00:32:33 ◼   ► I might make things a little bit easier for other people.

00:32:36 ◼   ► And like, that's not hard, is it?

00:32:38 ◼   ► - No, no, it's not.

00:32:39 ◼   ► It's one of those little things that means everything

00:32:44 ◼   ► to so many people.

00:32:47 ◼   ► And the part about listening and learning

00:32:50 ◼   ► and stepping back from your upbringing or past beliefs,

00:32:55 ◼   ► what we've learned about what's going on at base camp

00:33:00 ◼   ► over the last two or three days

00:33:03 ◼   ► kind of reinforces the thought that we have

00:33:05 ◼   ► that's not something that these guys are willing to do.

00:33:09 ◼   ► Part of the initial blog post was about abandoning

00:33:14 ◼   ► the idea of committees, and they mentioned one of managers

00:33:18 ◼   ► and like whatever, meetings are lame

00:33:20 ◼   ► according to some companies, but there was also a committee

00:33:25 ◼   ► that was based on, or working on I should say,

00:33:30 ◼   ► issues of DEI, which is diversity, equity, and inclusion.

00:33:35 ◼   ► and it was a huge committee with a large number

00:33:39 ◼   ► of employees on it, and there was a Twitter thread

00:33:43 ◼   ► going around last night of someone who had been

00:33:45 ◼   ► on that committee, and that was disbanded,

00:33:49 ◼   ► and all of that work is now going to their HR person,

00:33:54 ◼   ► and not getting the input of employees

00:33:59 ◼   ► from all these different backgrounds.

00:34:01 ◼   ► And I don't know the makeup of that committee.

00:34:03 ◼   ► I have some guesses, but not only are you saying,

00:34:08 ◼   ► okay, you can't talk about these things at work

00:34:11 ◼   ► with your coworkers, and then they later edit it

00:34:14 ◼   ► and say, well, you could do it,

00:34:15 ◼   ► just don't do it in official channels.

00:34:18 ◼   ► Do it in Signal or on Twitter or iMessage,

00:34:20 ◼   ► but don't do it in work, you know,

00:34:22 ◼   ► with your work accounts or whatever.

00:34:24 ◼   ► But then saying, hey, I know there's this group of people

00:34:28 ◼   ► of employees who are looking and wrestling

00:34:31 ◼   ► with these issues and want to push the company

00:34:33 ◼   ► forward in these in these areas and then saying that committee no longer is is

00:34:39 ◼   ► valid and we're just going to take over that as the company that's the wrong

00:34:44 ◼   ► move because in the you know I can say this I mean Myke and I own and run a

00:34:51 ◼   ► company together as two white guys and we need and seek out and encourage

00:34:56 ◼   ► feedback from all sorts of all sorts of hosts that we work with because our we

00:35:02 ◼   ► have historically not done the best job at this. We haven't and we're growing

00:35:06 ◼   ► and learning yeah and hopefully doing a better job of it today than we did

00:35:09 ◼   ► yesterday and then the day before but that input is so valuable because our

00:35:16 ◼   ► experience as two white guys is is limited in scope and we don't I mean it

00:35:26 ◼   ► goes back to the top of this work why do things have to be political well these

00:35:30 ◼   ► things aren't necessarily political for us things like you know how police are

00:35:36 ◼   ► trained to deal with people that they encounter in their work ways that we

00:35:44 ◼   ► have fundamental racism and bias built into societal systems as a white guy I

00:35:50 ◼   ► don't encounter that stuff I don't I never had the conversation with my

00:35:54 ◼   ► parents of what to do if you get pulled over but in communities with people of

00:35:59 ◼   ► color that is a conversation that happens again and again and and I need

00:36:04 ◼   ► to hear that because I need to know what my fellow human beings and people I work

00:36:10 ◼   ► with and my friends I need to know what their experiences are like so we can all

00:36:14 ◼   ► move forward together and shutting that down telling that committee your work

00:36:20 ◼   ► isn't welcome here is it's disgusting and what's even more disgusting in my

00:36:25 ◼   ► opinion is how in this second blog post by DHH, they're basically saying if you disagree

00:36:35 ◼   ► with this new company policy, you're welcome to leave. And we're offering everyone a severance

00:36:40 ◼   ► package. And the way that they make it sound like they're so magnanimous and they're offering

00:36:47 ◼   ► this great deal, while effectively they're saying, I mean, I'm paraphrasing here, but

00:36:52 ◼   ► The idea is, if you're not OK with us, again, two white men who happen to be your bosses,

00:37:00 ◼   ► deciding that certain behaviors and things we said are not racist, yeah, you should leave.

00:37:07 ◼   ► Honestly, I know that these folks have written business books, and they were and they are

00:37:17 ◼   ► idolized by a lot of folks in the tech community.

00:37:21 ◼   ► I know for sure in my Twitter timeline, I see a bunch of people thankfully upset.

00:37:25 ◼   ► Um, but really I don't think they are that business savvy because this is only

00:37:34 ◼   ► going to hurt their business.

00:37:36 ◼   ► Like this is not well set aside the human aspect.

00:37:41 ◼   ► Really, this is not a great business decision.

00:37:44 ◼   ► There's a whole section of that blog post about, you know, we've taken too long to

00:37:48 ◼   ► make decisions and we're not going to look back and we're not going to consider

00:37:50 ◼   ► previous mistakes. It's like, guys, like you, I mean,

00:37:55 ◼   ► I haven't been in a business as long as they have,

00:37:57 ◼   ► but I know that if we make a mistake as business owners,

00:38:00 ◼   ► I want to learn from that.

00:38:02 ◼   ► I want to consider what happened and then factor that into future decisions.

00:38:07 ◼   ► Like in life in general,

00:38:08 ◼   ► you're meant to learn from your mistakes and remember them so that you can

00:38:13 ◼   ► avoid them. Like that,

00:38:14 ◼   ► that is a basic way of life in a functioning adult,

00:38:19 ◼   ► like responsible adult usually. The thing that upsets me also is this whole culture of "Oh,

00:38:28 ◼   ► you know, we're a bunch of tech bros and we don't care about the rules, we make the rules,

00:38:34 ◼   ► and like we don't care about past mistakes, it's all about moving forward." Like,

00:38:39 ◼   ► do you read yourself? Like, do you understand that there's people out there at your company

00:38:48 ◼   ► who are hurting and who just want to be heard and just want to, you know, point out that

00:38:54 ◼   ► some things you said or did are considered racist and are just not right. And if your

00:39:03 ◼   ► quote-unquote solution is to shut them down and say "No, we don't care, we don't talk

00:39:11 ◼   ► about these things anymore, and also we don't dwell on the past. Is that really, like, a

00:39:18 ◼   ► good... do you, like, do they honestly think this is a good solution? And what's even more

00:39:24 ◼   ► concerning is, and I see this, unfortunately, on some blogs, and I see this in my Twitter,

00:39:31 ◼   ► I see it in my mentions. There's a lot of people who are upset at me for tweeting about

00:39:36 ◼   ► these things these past few days. What's even worse is the the cheering that I see for Basecamp.

00:39:45 ◼   ► This is wrong on so many levels and it's dehumanizing, it's sad, it's upsetting,

00:39:53 ◼   ► and it's unfortunately a good example of a male-dominated culture applied to software that

00:40:04 ◼   ► that we are familiar with.

00:40:07 ◼   ► And this hit me really hard because I've been like--

00:40:10 ◼   ► I haven't done the best job in the past

00:40:14 ◼   ► at really reading about certain topics

00:40:18 ◼   ► or educating myself about certain things.

00:40:22 ◼   ► And this, for a bunch of reasons,

00:40:25 ◼   ► also because I'm in a much better place right now,

00:40:28 ◼   ► mentally speaking, than, say, six months ago.

00:40:32 ◼   ► I don't know, it just hit very close this time.

00:40:37 ◼   ► And it was, I don't know, it just felt like I'm really upset

00:40:42 ◼   ► and I wish that we could do something.

00:40:45 ◼   ► I know that, you know, maybe just even talking about it

00:40:48 ◼   ► and discussing it is something, right?

00:40:51 ◼   ► And I wish I had the right, I don't know,

00:40:56 ◼   ► I wish I had the right words.

00:40:57 ◼   ► I wish I, you know, I could explain,

00:41:01 ◼   ► I wish that I could explain to these people, like, don't you see that at a human level?

00:41:08 ◼   ► Like, you are wrong.

00:41:12 ◼   ► That you should listen, you should shut up and just listen to people different from you.

00:41:18 ◼   ► But they seem to be pretty upset in their ways, so it's too bad.

00:41:23 ◼   ► I have a couple of things I want to say to, like, just try and make sure I tie some bows

00:41:28 ◼   ► that I want to tie on this.

00:41:29 ◼   ► So, you know, you might be asking yourself,

00:41:32 ◼   ► what's wrong with them saying, don't talk about it at work,

00:41:35 ◼   ► but you can talk about it anywhere else you want.

00:41:38 ◼   ► By saying you can't talk about it at work,

00:41:40 ◼   ► you are communicating that you don't want your employees

00:41:43 ◼   ► to be political with their coworkers, right?

00:41:46 ◼   ► And so you can say, have these conversations

00:41:48 ◼   ► in other places, but if you're an employee of this company,

00:41:51 ◼   ► you're gonna be aware of the fact

00:41:53 ◼   ► that if these conversations bleed over into work again,

00:41:56 ◼   ► you're in trouble.

00:41:57 ◼   ► If your existence alone is considered political,

00:42:02 ◼   ► then it means that you're not welcome

00:42:05 ◼   ► as a person at that company.

00:42:06 ◼   ► - Correct, that's a beautiful way of putting it, right?

00:42:09 ◼   ► And would you, if you've got a performance review coming up,

00:42:14 ◼   ► you're maybe not gonna send that tweet, right?

00:42:16 ◼   ► In case you're gonna get in trouble about,

00:42:19 ◼   ► they're gonna look down on you

00:42:20 ◼   ► because now you kind of have an idea

00:42:22 ◼   ► that your employer doesn't want you

00:42:23 ◼   ► to be a political individual.

00:42:26 ◼   ► There are ways to deal with whatever this problem is

00:42:29 ◼   ► that they are having vastly better

00:42:31 ◼   ► than what they're doing, right?

00:42:33 ◼   ► You could look into new HR initiatives.

00:42:35 ◼   ► You could look into conflict resolution.

00:42:37 ◼   ► You can sequester these conversations

00:42:39 ◼   ► to certain places of inside your tools, right?

00:42:41 ◼   ► You can say like, look, we don't want to get

00:42:43 ◼   ► into this argument in the general channel.

00:42:45 ◼   ► We have another channel here.

00:42:46 ◼   ► If you like, please go and talk about it.

00:42:48 ◼   ► This is a very normal way of moderating discussions, right?

00:42:53 ◼   ► You can ask for civility amongst your people, right?

00:42:55 ◼   ► so like let's not get into flame wars.

00:42:57 ◼   ► Like you can't raise your voice at people at work.

00:43:00 ◼   ► And that also includes in the way that you talk to people

00:43:02 ◼   ► in digital tools.

00:43:03 ◼   ► You could listen when people talk,

00:43:04 ◼   ► you take actions where needed.

00:43:06 ◼   ► Like I personally believe that discussions on topics

00:43:10 ◼   ► are fair, like that for the people involved,

00:43:14 ◼   ► discussions that it's not just one side on a topic

00:43:17 ◼   ► and you can come to it and believe what's right

00:43:20 ◼   ► and what's wrong.

00:43:21 ◼   ► And I try not to deal in absolutes

00:43:23 ◼   ► because the person on the other side of your debate

00:43:26 ◼   ► also believes in right and wrong,

00:43:29 ◼   ► but it's in the opposite, right?

00:43:30 ◼   ► So the best way to try and deal with that is to discuss it.

00:43:34 ◼   ► Because if you crush people down and say like,

00:43:36 ◼   ► your opinion is stupid and not valid,

00:43:38 ◼   ► on any side of it, no one can learn, right?

00:43:41 ◼   ► So you've gotta be able to have conversations

00:43:44 ◼   ► 'cause otherwise everyone just gets entrenched.

00:43:46 ◼   ► And to Basecamp, to Jason Fried and David Hanomayah Hanson,

00:43:52 ◼   ► you own your business.

00:43:53 ◼   ► You can choose to run it however you want.

00:43:56 ◼   ► If you're happy with the decisions that you make,

00:44:00 ◼   ► and you're happy with the people that you push away,

00:44:03 ◼   ► and you say to people if they don't like it, you can leave,

00:44:06 ◼   ► totally fine.

00:44:08 ◼   ► But it's going to change the perception

00:44:09 ◼   ► that people have of you.

00:44:11 ◼   ► You need to accept that.

00:44:13 ◼   ► People will say you're wrong, people will say you're right,

00:44:15 ◼   ► but you have to look at who is saying that

00:44:18 ◼   ► and decide if that's the kind of company you want to keep.

00:44:22 ◼   ► Do you want all the employees that you've got left

00:44:24 ◼   ► and the companies, and like the employees that you attract?

00:44:27 ◼   ► Do you want to hear people saying,

00:44:29 ◼   ► like when you hear people praising you,

00:44:31 ◼   ► we're hearing people say that you're wrong.

00:44:34 ◼   ► Do you like the makeup of who those people are, if they are?

00:44:37 ◼   ► Fine, you do you, man.

00:44:38 ◼   ► But I believe that you're doing this wrong

00:44:41 ◼   ► and you're doubling down.

00:44:43 ◼   ► And so that's on you.

00:44:45 ◼   ► If you don't like me or don't like what I have to say,

00:44:48 ◼   ► totally fine, like it's a big world.

00:44:51 ◼   ► but look at who's saying that you're right.

00:44:53 ◼   ► Like I saw somebody post today,

00:44:55 ◼   ► it's like this made it to Breitbart.

00:44:57 ◼   ► - Yeah, oh, great company.

00:44:59 ◼   ► - Right?

00:45:00 ◼   ► What company you keep in now?

00:45:01 ◼   ► You happy with that?

00:45:02 ◼   ► Because they agree with you.

00:45:03 ◼   ► So if you don't agree with them,

00:45:06 ◼   ► maybe you haven't explained yourself properly.

00:45:09 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:45:10 ◼   ► - I don't know. - Yeah.

00:45:11 ◼   ► - No, I think that's all right.

00:45:14 ◼   ► And I think that it says so much

00:45:16 ◼   ► that they're telling people,

00:45:17 ◼   ► hey, if you wanna go, you know, that's fine.

00:45:20 ◼   ► right like you don't like this that's the door yeah yeah and they can you know

00:45:27 ◼   ► base campy stuff of hey we'll give you a bunch of money to you know but the thing

00:45:34 ◼   ► that kills me about it and I mean there's so much of it that is so

00:45:38 ◼   ► hurtful it's that you know I think for a long time people thought that these guys

00:45:44 ◼   ► and that this company was like kind of on the right track you know like I've

00:45:49 ◼   ► I've read some of their books over the years.

00:45:52 ◼   ► And even though DHH has gone on like a Twitter rampage

00:45:56 ◼   ► the last little while, you know, I thought of them as like,

00:46:00 ◼   ► yeah, these guys have this cool business

00:46:01 ◼   ► and they, you know, they make these products.

00:46:03 ◼   ► And as a company that makes products,

00:46:06 ◼   ► like kind of looked up to their success and that's hard too.

00:46:09 ◼   ► And I saw a lot of tweets as this was breaking from people

00:46:13 ◼   ► who kind of said similar things.

00:46:16 ◼   ► There was one tweet and I tried finding it for the show

00:46:18 ◼   ► and I couldn't find it, so I apologize.

00:46:21 ◼   ► But it was from a woman who had a startup,

00:46:24 ◼   ► and she was like, "I really looked up the way

00:46:26 ◼   ► "they ran their business, and I feel heartbroken over it."

00:46:28 ◼   ► And I was like, "Yeah, that's true,

00:46:31 ◼   ► "because even though you don't think people look up to you,

00:46:35 ◼   ► "people do, and when you espouse these sorts of ideas,

00:46:40 ◼   ► "you are putting your weight behind them.

00:46:42 ◼   ► "You're saying that it's okay to treat people this way,

00:46:44 ◼   ► "and it's okay to shut down these types of conversations."

00:46:48 ◼   ► And that's part of the hurt too.

00:46:50 ◼   ► You know, it's part of the hurt that I feel.

00:46:52 ◼   ► I mean, I feel empathy for the best that I can

00:46:56 ◼   ► for people who are inside this company

00:46:58 ◼   ► who've had their voices silenced

00:47:00 ◼   ► and been attacked by their bosses.

00:47:03 ◼   ► But I also feel pain for our community,

00:47:06 ◼   ► that our tech community isn't better than this

00:47:09 ◼   ► in so many days.

00:47:10 ◼   ► And that there are people who are in our community

00:47:13 ◼   ► and who are leaders in our community

00:47:15 ◼   ► who have this way of thinking that they think is okay.

00:47:20 ◼   ► And it grieves me for our little community on the internet.

00:47:25 ◼   ► And you know, we want to be better

00:47:28 ◼   ► and there's lots of people and I truly believe

00:47:31 ◼   ► that there are more people who want to be better

00:47:32 ◼   ► than people who don't.

00:47:34 ◼   ► But it just feels so dark and so heavy at the same time.

00:47:37 ◼   ► - Can I just say one last thing?

00:47:39 ◼   ► - Sure. - Yes, please.

00:47:41 ◼   ► - David Hannah Meyer Hansen and Jason Fried

00:47:44 ◼   ► turned their company into a literal political tool.

00:47:47 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:47:48 ◼   ► - They are using their company as examples in Congress,

00:47:53 ◼   ► like the home of politics, right?

00:47:57 ◼   ► So politics are okay when there's money.

00:48:02 ◼   ► - Or when it's in the, really what it is, I think,

00:48:05 ◼   ► they're okay with politics as long as it's their politics,

00:48:08 ◼   ► it's the politics that are in their hands,

00:48:09 ◼   ► they don't want to give that power to their employees.

00:48:11 ◼   ► Politics is fine when it's within your worldview.

00:48:14 ◼   ► Then it just becomes a nuisance.

00:48:17 ◼   ► Then we're off to the races.

00:48:18 ◼   ► And I'm pretty sure I saw something where they still want

00:48:22 ◼   ► people to talk about the political issues of base camp.

00:48:25 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:48:26 ◼   ► Like, because like David Hennemeyer Hanson

00:48:28 ◼   ► gets to stand up in front of Congress

00:48:30 ◼   ► and make his big speeches.

00:48:31 ◼   ► Yep.

00:48:34 ◼   ► And it goes back to what we said, right?

00:48:36 ◼   ► That so many things,

00:48:41 ◼   ► things that so many people face in everyday lives due to racism, sexism, oppression, those

00:48:48 ◼   ► things have to be political to move forward. And if you don't feel those things, you don't

00:48:52 ◼   ► think they're political, right? I mean, the whole the whole the whole worldview is so

00:48:55 ◼   ► broken. But you're right. I mean, I mean, it's it's hypocrisy to say that to say, Oh,

00:49:02 ◼   ► well, we're going to use our entire company as this weapon against Apple. And like, I

00:49:05 ◼   ► don't even care if it's against Apple. In fact, I think, like, it's going to be very

00:49:09 ◼   ► interesting to see how this plays out and but when the other side of the coin

00:49:15 ◼   ► is well you know we're not gonna talk about these other things we're not gonna

00:49:19 ◼   ► allow conversations about other societal issues it's just it's being a hypocrite

00:49:25 ◼   ► at best. I do believe people are possible of making mistakes I really hope they

00:49:31 ◼   ► change their tune on it. Me too. From my perspective if they do and they they say

00:49:36 ◼   ► like you know we were wrong about this and this is what we're doing to move

00:49:39 ◼   ► forward, I will accept that myself. I mean, it's on to everybody else to accept it.

00:49:43 ◼   ► I believe that people are capable of screwing up and it's how they deal with it. And you

00:49:48 ◼   ► can screw up and it's very normal to dig your heels in like they're doing right now. Because

00:49:53 ◼   ► when the whole world is turned against you, it's very easy to take that initial view of

00:49:59 ◼   ► like, "Oh no, you're just not understanding." And I've been in these situations before where

00:50:05 ◼   ► people tell me I'm wrong about something or like I'm doing something and it's not what I mean and

00:50:10 ◼   ► I just try and like explain and explain and explain when I'm like just pushing and pushing and it's

00:50:16 ◼   ► not the right thing and ultimately you've just got to back off take a beat and realize where you're

00:50:21 ◼   ► messing up and if they're if they do that you know I'll be like all right like now let's try and turn

00:50:29 ◼   ► back the clock and see where we move from there huh but I don't think that's going to happen but

00:50:34 ◼   ► I want it to. Yeah, and it would be if that were to happen, if they were to come out and say,

00:50:41 ◼   ► "Hey, we have royally screwed this up. These are things we're going to do to fix it."

00:50:44 ◼   ► That could be turned into such a good example for people to say, "Yeah, change is possible

00:50:51 ◼   ► in these areas." And I just don't know. Let's take a break. Is that all right? Yes. Okay.

00:51:03 ◼   ► We'll do that and then we'll talk about email and then we'll talk about emoji. It's a weird week this

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00:52:43 ◼   ► and Relay FM.

00:52:44 ◼   ► - So for no particular reason,

00:52:46 ◼   ► Federico's back on Apple, man.

00:52:49 ◼   ► Yeah. As soon as we saw what was going on at Basecamp, we knew, John and I, we knew

00:52:55 ◼   ► right away that we wanted and like we needed to do it quickly to move away from "Hey,

00:53:02 ◼   ► that's not the kind of service that I want to support, that I want to align my company with."

00:53:09 ◼   ► It's, you know, something that we decided very quickly that we wanted to do.

00:53:14 ◼   ► - I just want to say on that, like, you know, companies are bigger than people.

00:53:19 ◼   ► And I agree with what you're doing. I mean, I'm going to also move the account

00:53:26 ◼   ► that I was using away from Hey, but like frankly, I wasn't enjoying it anyway.

00:53:30 ◼   ► - Yeah. - You know, hey, listen, it wasn't very difficult for me. I know you loved it, right?

00:53:35 ◼   ► But like, it was not easy for me. Like, it's not difficult for me, I should say, because I kind of

00:53:38 ◼   ► had a real issue with it anyway, as listeners to this show have been doing. And by the way,

00:53:43 ◼   ► one of the reasons we wanted to talk about this whole thing this week is because over

00:53:47 ◼   ► the last few months we have spoken about, hey, so much that it kind of felt like we've

00:53:52 ◼   ► given them a lot of free press. So it seems only fair to balance it out. I mean, let alone

00:53:58 ◼   ► all of the other reasons, right? But that was definitely one of them. But, you know,

00:54:02 ◼   ► because it's like, well, you're going to go to Google. Like Google has its own set of

00:54:05 ◼   ► problems. Like you have to make your trade offs and decisions. Companies are bigger than

00:54:09 ◼   ► just the people. There's also the people that are employed by them. And you know, like all

00:54:13 ◼   ► these people, if everybody leaves, hey, they're all gonna lose their jobs, right?

00:54:17 ◼   ► So, you know, I think this is the thing that people need to make their own

00:54:20 ◼   ► decisions on one way or another and it's basically just like, you know, we're not

00:54:27 ◼   ► advocating that literally everybody should close their accounts down now, but

00:54:31 ◼   ► if you want to, go for it. I mean, you know what I'm saying? I don't want to make it

00:54:35 ◼   ► like this big, like, "Burn them and the steak!" kind of thing, right? And we will...

00:54:40 ◼   ► know let me just add to that that some of us didn't like hey before it was

00:54:44 ◼   ► cool so you loved it you were in on it big time I got a lot of you made it a

00:54:49 ◼   ► part of your personal brand that's not much you loved it just for the joke yeah

00:54:53 ◼   ► yeah well not for the service if they know if they apologize or if they

00:54:58 ◼   ► change leadership we can reconsider I guess but for now we are not supporting

00:55:03 ◼   ► that kind of business ourselves.

00:55:05 ◼   ► And so for now, I just wanna explain this.

00:55:10 ◼   ► For now, we went back to the system

00:55:13 ◼   ► that we were using before.

00:55:14 ◼   ► So for over a decade, we've been part of

00:55:18 ◼   ► what used to be called Google Apps,

00:55:20 ◼   ► and then it became G Suite,

00:55:22 ◼   ► and now it's Google Workspace, I guess.

00:55:25 ◼   ► Yeah, the business.

00:55:26 ◼   ► So confusing.

00:55:27 ◼   ► Yes, it's very confusing.

00:55:28 ◼   ► We were, many years ago,

00:55:30 ◼   ► we were grandfathered into a free plan because we were using Google Apps for domains many,

00:55:37 ◼   ► many years ago. And so this is something that we just kept around for free. When I moved

00:55:42 ◼   ► to Hey, I kept all of the old users in the Google admin console. So we literally just

00:55:50 ◼   ► had to switch back our DNS records and go back to Google. And for now we're doing that.

00:55:58 ◼   ► are not happy with it. We just needed to move away from Hey and to have a working email

00:56:03 ◼   ► because we also have a business to run and we need our...

00:56:06 ◼   ► Yeah, and if you're going to go somewhere, you go to the number one email provider, right?

00:56:12 ◼   ► If you just need to something to tide you over if you want to...

00:56:15 ◼   ► But I can tell you like all the things I said months ago before switching to Hey still apply

00:56:22 ◼   ► today. I'm not happy to be back on Gmail. I'm not happy that I'm using Google. I'm not

00:56:27 ◼   ► happy with my system.

00:56:28 ◼   ► I know that Jon is already yelling at his inbox.

00:56:31 ◼   ► There's different ways that I'm trying

00:56:37 ◼   ► to cope with this right now.

00:56:39 ◼   ► So personally, I guess--

00:56:42 ◼   ► wait, before that, for context, we

00:56:44 ◼   ► haven't found any collaborative service yet.

00:56:49 ◼   ► One of the features that we loved about Hey

00:56:51 ◼   ► was the collaboration, the ability

00:56:53 ◼   ► to share threads, to leave comments, and to build collections of different email messages

00:56:59 ◼   ► that belong to the same topic or area of interest. We haven't found a good replacement for that.

00:57:07 ◼   ► Or by good, I mean something that is not wildly expensive or that, you know...

00:57:15 ◼   ► Gotta come over to Spark. Come on.

00:57:18 ◼   ► I kinda...

00:57:19 ◼   ► Come on.

00:57:20 ◼   ► I kinda don't wanna do that.

00:57:21 ◼   ► Come on.

00:57:22 ◼   ► I kinda don't want to.

00:57:23 ◼   ► So we're looking at different systems. I don't know. So right now I'm using Apple

00:57:31 ◼   ► Mail again. I'll tell you that my one pitch for Spark for you is the sharing features

00:57:40 ◼   ► are agnostic of the email service. I know, I know, I know. Like we used it before. It's

00:57:44 ◼   ► just I don't really like Spark's design and like custom menus. I know. But you can get,

00:57:51 ◼   ► I mean, like, look, you can get over it, you know?

00:57:53 ◼   ► Like, it makes sense.

00:57:56 ◼   ► Hey, was a dumpster fire of design.

00:57:59 ◼   ► Wait, did you just shut down his email committee?

00:58:00 ◼   ► That's not cool.

00:58:02 ◼   ► Oh, come on now.

00:58:03 ◼   ► I'll fire you.

00:58:05 ◼   ► Can't fire me.

00:58:06 ◼   ► No more Stephen talking at work.

00:58:08 ◼   ► I'm taking the big go.

00:58:09 ◼   ► I agree with that.

00:58:09 ◼   ► I agree with that.

00:58:10 ◼   ► You should have a fancy blog post about it.

00:58:14 ◼   ► So right now I'm using Apple Mail.

00:58:19 ◼   ► The way that I'm coping with it is, I guess it's been a sponsor of the show before, it's

00:58:24 ◼   ► just a service that I really like, SaneBox.

00:58:27 ◼   ► Like I went back and reactivated my SaneBox account, and so I have my old and trusted,

00:58:33 ◼   ► I guess, triaging system made of SaneLater, SaneNews, and SaneBlackHole.

00:58:40 ◼   ► And so I've been aggressively dropping messages into the SaneBlackHole.

00:58:46 ◼   ► is the way that I'm trying to deal with this right now. I don't love any of this. I don't

00:58:52 ◼   ► love Apple Mail. Like actually here's a funny tech-related thing that I wanted to mention.

00:58:59 ◼   ► It's about time. Bring the technology back to connected.

00:59:02 ◼   ► Yes, this is a tech show. Well, I mean, this is also a tech show. I think it's more of

00:59:07 ◼   ► a human show at this point.

00:59:10 ◼   ► What is it? It is connected. That's what it is.

00:59:13 ◼   ► So thankfully, from Hey, you can download your data.

00:59:18 ◼   ► You can export all of your data,

00:59:20 ◼   ► both your messages and your contacts.

00:59:23 ◼   ► Your messages, you will get a .mbox file on your computer.

00:59:28 ◼   ► And in Apple Mail, what you can do is you can select

00:59:33 ◼   ► an account and then say File, Import Mailbox,

00:59:36 ◼   ► and you select the .mbox file type,

00:59:40 ◼   ► and you let it run through all your messages,

00:59:42 ◼   ► and you end up with a mailbox that says imported from whatever the name of the folder is,

00:59:49 ◼   ► local mailbox in Apple Mail.

00:59:52 ◼   ► So on the Mac, so I was using my Mac yesterday for this,

00:59:56 ◼   ► what's really nice about Apple Mail on the Mac,

00:59:59 ◼   ► and it's so very surprising that this feature is not on iOS or iPadOS yet,

01:00:05 ◼   ► I wanted to automatically file those imported messages into some different subfolders, especially

01:00:14 ◼   ► for our billing email address.

01:00:19 ◼   ► And I needed to have some receipts go into a folder and some other receipts go into another.

01:00:25 ◼   ► And on Apple Mail on the Mac, this is all very easy to do with smart mailboxes, because

01:00:30 ◼   ► I was able to put together a smart mailbox that said, "Show me all the messages from,

01:00:37 ◼   ► say, PayPal, from this local mailbox."

01:00:41 ◼   ► And so that was a filter that I put together in like 20 seconds, and then I just needed

01:00:45 ◼   ► to select a smart mailbox, Command-A to select all the messages, and drag and drop into the

01:00:51 ◼   ► appropriate folder in my email account.

01:00:54 ◼   ► And like it took me what, 10 minutes to download all of my like the all the messages from my

01:01:02 ◼   ► main personal address, categorize them with smart mailboxes, drag and drop, reimport everything

01:01:09 ◼   ► into my Gmail account. And that was done. Why are rules and smart mailboxes not available

01:01:15 ◼   ► on iOS and iPadOS? I don't get it. It's been 10 years. It's been no.

01:01:21 ◼   ► get real email done on iOS?

01:01:25 ◼   ► It doesn't really make sense.

01:01:26 ◼   ► Do they sync?

01:01:28 ◼   ► No.

01:01:29 ◼   ► Like if you set them up on the Mac, you don't even see them?

01:01:31 ◼   ► Oh, that's junk.

01:01:32 ◼   ► No.

01:01:33 ◼   ► Not at all.

01:01:34 ◼   ► Spayed.

01:01:35 ◼   ► Mail is old.

01:01:37 ◼   ► Yes.

01:01:39 ◼   ► It's strange because it was rumored last year.

01:01:42 ◼   ► I remember Mark Gurman had a report

01:01:45 ◼   ► saying that Apple was looking into more modern features

01:01:48 ◼   ► for Apple Mail, things like snoozing, I think.

01:01:51 ◼   ► or dealing with...

01:01:52 ◼   ► - Oh yeah.

01:01:53 ◼   ► - But that never actually happened.

01:01:56 ◼   ► - Well, it hasn't happened yet.

01:01:58 ◼   ► - I mean, sure.

01:01:59 ◼   ► - Right?

01:02:01 ◼   ► For all we know that they were working on that

01:02:03 ◼   ► and maybe, fingers crossed, wish, wish, wishing,

01:02:06 ◼   ► it got bumped to this year.

01:02:08 ◼   ► - So yeah, we are right now in email limbo, I guess.

01:02:12 ◼   ► Where-- - Again.

01:02:14 ◼   ► - Again, we're not really happy with it,

01:02:16 ◼   ► but I also think we did the right,

01:02:19 ◼   ► We made the right call in switching from Hey, which honestly sucks because as a product,

01:02:26 ◼   ► I really liked it.

01:02:27 ◼   ► However, the way I'm built as a person and as a business owner, I cannot separate the

01:02:35 ◼   ► company and the people.

01:02:37 ◼   ► And also, we all make our choices and this is a choice that I wanted to make.

01:02:41 ◼   ► This is not the kind of policy that I can get behind.

01:02:44 ◼   ► And if you disagree with me, you can tell me on Twitter, I'm just going to mute you

01:02:47 ◼   ► because I don't care.

01:02:49 ◼   ► And also if you're that kind of person who wants to correct me and wants to, you know,

01:02:54 ◼   ► I've seen that kind of, Stephen recently taught me a word that I've been searching for for

01:03:02 ◼   ► a while.

01:03:03 ◼   ► What about ism?

01:03:04 ◼   ► Right?

01:03:05 ◼   ► I think it really, it's a really useful word because it describes a lot of people on Twitter.

01:03:10 ◼   ► And it describes a lot of people that try to find a fallacy in your argument by trying

01:03:15 ◼   ► to bring forth another problem that is totally unrelated to what you're just talking about.

01:03:21 ◼   ► And so I got a bunch of people saying, "Oh, so imagine like, 'Hey, it's a problem, but

01:03:28 ◼   ► what about totally unrelated issue? Like, what are you trying to accomplish with that

01:03:35 ◼   ► kind of reply?'" And yeah, I've been muting aggressively. I don't block anymore because

01:03:40 ◼   ► Because I have discovered that blocking only reinforces the cycle of negativity. Instead,

01:03:48 ◼   ► I'm just muting people. So they will never know.

01:03:51 ◼   ► Muting's better because they never know. And they're just like, they're sending you stuff

01:03:54 ◼   ► and you don't even see it. They're just talking at you and they don't even know. It's like,

01:03:59 ◼   ► hahaha.

01:04:00 ◼   ► It's beautiful.

01:04:01 ◼   ► Haha, I win.

01:04:02 ◼   ► It's beautiful. They just go into this secret box that nobody really wants to open. And

01:04:07 ◼   ► It's fantastic. So yeah.

01:04:09 ◼   ► Yeah. And, and as a, when a company has something like this, I mean,

01:04:14 ◼   ► some people would say, well,

01:04:16 ◼   ► you're just trying to make a statement by saying you're, you're leaving them.

01:04:20 ◼   ► But when it's a business and business owners,

01:04:23 ◼   ► like that's how you communicate with them. You communicate with your dollars.

01:04:27 ◼   ► Some person tried to tell me today that I was looking for attention,

01:04:31 ◼   ► like body. I don't need the attention. Like I am the attention. So I just,

01:04:36 ◼   ► I don't need to do these things for attention.

01:04:39 ◼   ► - I am the one who attentions.

01:04:41 ◼   ► - Yes, whatever that means.

01:04:42 ◼   ► So.

01:04:44 ◼   ► - I just watched Breaking Bad.

01:04:45 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:04:46 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:04:47 ◼   ► Let's not go too far down that road.

01:04:49 ◼   ► - Well, good luck on your email journey.

01:04:53 ◼   ► I'm not looking forward to moving away from Hey Again.

01:04:56 ◼   ► 'Cause like, I know it's gonna be a pain now

01:04:58 ◼   ► 'cause I set up like an account for another person

01:05:02 ◼   ► and like, now I gotta get them to move

01:05:04 ◼   ► and I don't know how to move that account.

01:05:06 ◼   ► I haven't looked into it yet, but Federico, basically I'm going to ask you for your help

01:05:11 ◼   ► at some point.

01:05:12 ◼   ► Okay, I will help you.

01:05:14 ◼   ► Don't worry.

01:05:15 ◼   ► I got you.

01:05:16 ◼   ► I should never have done it.

01:05:17 ◼   ► Why did I let you talk me into it now?

01:05:20 ◼   ► Look where I am.

01:05:22 ◼   ► Well, look, I don't regret it.

01:05:26 ◼   ► It's like after a...

01:05:27 ◼   ► You learn a lot about how you like email, you know?

01:05:30 ◼   ► You got that much.

01:05:31 ◼   ► Yes.

01:05:32 ◼   ► and again if they apologize but like for real and they completely change their

01:05:38 ◼   ► policy or you know if they if they propose actual solutions in good faith

01:05:44 ◼   ► or if leadership resigns I'm up for switching back but in this situation not

01:05:53 ◼   ► at all I'm sorry mm-hmm okay it's good it's time to play the

01:06:00 ◼   ► Jeremy's but we're gonna take another break before we do gotta get ready and

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01:08:12 ◼   ► It is time for the Jeremy's.

01:08:14 ◼   ► Unexpected Jeremy's.

01:08:17 ◼   ► What is this?

01:08:18 ◼   ► spring. This isn't a big one today, unfortunately everybody. There's kind of only really like

01:08:24 ◼   ► five new emoji and then a bunch of like additions. This was a very very small list this year.

01:08:38 ◼   ► Hopefully next year's list will be a lot more full but I think of the ones that we've got

01:08:45 ◼   ► I think we've got some some real classics up there. So we're gonna be looking at

01:08:49 ◼   ► There are five new emoji, four kind of updated emoji and two where Apple have changed the artwork on them

01:08:57 ◼   ► And these are what we're gonna be talking about today. We'll put some links in the show notes

01:09:02 ◼   ► I think we'll probably have if you have an app that supports chapter artwork

01:09:07 ◼   ► You'll see the imagery because Steven's very good at that. So I'm sure he's gonna make one too, right?

01:09:12 ◼   ► Yes, absolutely. You got to be able to see we have a list here Federico's looking at the M

01:09:17 ◼   ► You got the image in the in the show notes that very yes. I'm looking at it. I'm looking at it

01:09:22 ◼   ► so the way that we're gonna do this is

01:09:24 ◼   ► Federico's gonna state say what he thinks the emoji is I have the official

01:09:31 ◼   ► Wording and that's what he needs to get to and Stephen will be rating Stephen

01:09:38 ◼   ► I am going to, because I realize I haven't done this, send a text message to you with the actual

01:09:43 ◼   ► names of all of these things in the order that I made them in. So there we go. So Federico.

01:09:50 ◼   ► Yes. What is emoji number one? So this is a heart with a fire. Well, this is my, like,

01:10:01 ◼   ► this is passion, right? This is the image of passion. This is like, when I talk about passion,

01:10:06 ◼   ► I picture this. It's like a heart set ablaze, really.

01:10:11 ◼   ► It's the Ricky emoji.

01:10:12 ◼   ► Yes. So as for the official naming of this, I think they're doing a variation.

01:10:20 ◼   ► It's going to be "Heart Something." So I'm going to say...

01:10:23 ◼   ► I'm going to get this wrong, I'm sure.

01:10:28 ◼   ► "Burning Heart"?

01:10:31 ◼   ► That is incorrect.

01:10:33 ◼   ► Why?

01:10:36 ◼   ► You were so close, you were really circling this one.

01:10:39 ◼   ► You're like, "It's always heart something. There's a fire."

01:10:42 ◼   ► This emoji is called "Heart on Fire."

01:10:45 ◼   ► Oh my god.

01:10:47 ◼   ► Sure. On fire.

01:10:50 ◼   ► I really thought you were going to get this one.

01:10:52 ◼   ► I was like, "Great, we're going to be one for one."

01:10:54 ◼   ► I think it's the easiest one.

01:10:56 ◼   ► One of the easiest ones.

01:10:57 ◼   ► It is the easiest one. Yep.

01:10:59 ◼   ► Beautiful.

01:11:00 ◼   ► Emoji number two.

01:11:03 ◼   ► Okay, so this is, um...

01:11:05 ◼   ► There's...

01:11:07 ◼   ► How do you call those in English?

01:11:10 ◼   ► I can't help you.

01:11:12 ◼   ► Yeah, sorry. You're on your own today.

01:11:14 ◼   ► You have to describe what you're seeing.

01:11:17 ◼   ► Say what you see.

01:11:19 ◼   ► Okay, so this is not my official call on the name.

01:11:23 ◼   ► I'm seeing up like a broken heart.

01:11:25 ◼   ► However, we already have the broken heart emoji.

01:11:30 ◼   ► So how do you say when you're like not curing something?

01:11:37 ◼   ► You're mending something maybe?

01:11:41 ◼   ► Is that a word? Oh my god, I don't know. I don't know my English

01:11:45 ◼   ► Yeah, whatever I'm just gonna go for it mmm ended heart

01:11:57 ◼   ► The actual name is Mending Heart, but like come on we're not monsters around here.

01:12:02 ◼   ► Okay, thank you.

01:12:03 ◼   ► Yeah, they are bandages Federico. I think that's the word you may have been looking for.

01:12:06 ◼   ► Bandages. Yes. Thank you.

01:12:08 ◼   ► The two heart rate monitors.

01:12:10 ◼   ► So, I got nice. I am not a hundred percent sure what you would use this emoji for.

01:12:17 ◼   ► Maybe is it is it the response to your heart no longer being broken? Is that the thing?

01:12:22 ◼   ► Yeah, like I know you broke my heart, but now

01:12:26 ◼   ► Like this is the emoji that you attach to a selfie that you send to your ex when you're with somebody else. It's like hey

01:12:34 ◼   ► Broke my heart, but I could imagine using this like like say Steven said something real mean to me

01:12:41 ◼   ► And I you know I sent in the broken heart emoji, and he's like sorry buddy, and I could send in this one

01:12:46 ◼   ► You know be like how you fixed it. Yeah, it's like hey things are good now, okay, all right

01:12:50 ◼   ► So we have we have one right and one wrong emoji number three

01:12:55 ◼   ► Okay, so this is the face I make after I mute somebody on Twitter.

01:12:59 ◼   ► This is the "woo!" type of emotion.

01:13:04 ◼   ► Is that the official name?

01:13:07 ◼   ► Yeah, well, I guess this is the sound that I associate with that.

01:13:10 ◼   ► I make that face when, I don't know, when you feel really accomplished.

01:13:19 ◼   ► It's like, "Yes!"

01:13:20 ◼   ► It's like, "Woo!"

01:13:21 ◼   ► Oh, that was a close one?

01:13:25 ◼   ► Yeah. So what is this face doing? There's a cloud of air coming out of the face's mouth.

01:13:39 ◼   ► That's an elaborate name.

01:13:41 ◼   ► So like when you breathe, so breathe in, breathe out. I don't think Apple is gonna call it like

01:13:52 ◼   ► breathing out face because they like to go for like simpler combined names how do you say it

01:14:03 ◼   ► breathing yeah i got it exhaling face

01:14:10 ◼   ► wow nice the official name is face exhaler okay don't forget that it is typically face

01:14:19 ◼   ► fast for the naming conventions here.

01:14:22 ◼   ► I like, you know what I like?

01:14:24 ◼   ► I like that you didn't do that because if you would have done that, it could be suggested

01:14:28 ◼   ► that you were, you know, cheating a little bit beforehand.

01:14:30 ◼   ► Like you were, you were like boning up on old emoji names or whatever, right?

01:14:34 ◼   ► To try and give you inspiration.

01:14:35 ◼   ► I haven't looked at the names and for context, I haven't looked at the names.

01:14:38 ◼   ► I trust you.

01:14:39 ◼   ► And also in my overview for iOS 14.5, there's actually like a footnote about this.

01:14:45 ◼   ► I had John write that section and it's in the story.

01:14:49 ◼   ► He sent me the section and the screenshot.

01:14:51 ◼   ► I didn't proof it.

01:14:53 ◼   ► I didn't read it.

01:14:55 ◼   ► And also it's like there's a footnote that says like, "Hey everyone, John here, in the

01:15:01 ◼   ► spirit of not breaking the Jeremy's, Federico asked me to put together this section for

01:15:06 ◼   ► the story."

01:15:07 ◼   ► Well, this all came from a conversation that the four of us were having, right?

01:15:11 ◼   ► Yes.

01:15:12 ◼   ► It's like all three of us gave a completely different answer of like someone should write

01:15:17 ◼   ► it, I should write it, he should write it and then John took it.

01:15:20 ◼   ► Then John took it.

01:15:21 ◼   ► That was kind of how it went.

01:15:22 ◼   ► Emoji number four.

01:15:23 ◼   ► This next, I have no idea, honestly.

01:15:27 ◼   ► So there's, this is a face with like a sort of a squiggly line as a, as a mouth and two

01:15:37 ◼   ► Dreamcast logos instead of eyes.

01:15:42 ◼   ► We're switching cast logos. Ring the bell!

01:15:45 ◼   ► Ding!

01:15:45 ◼   ► This is the Dreamcast logo.

01:15:48 ◼   ► There's also a snack in Italy that is shaped like that.

01:15:53 ◼   ► Face of Italian snack.

01:15:56 ◼   ► Dreamcast face.

01:15:58 ◼   ► No, I don't know.

01:15:59 ◼   ► What is this supposed to convey as a, like, "Oh, I'm so confused."

01:16:05 ◼   ► I have already used this emoji today.

01:16:07 ◼   ► Really?

01:16:08 ◼   ► Really.

01:16:09 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:16:09 ◼   ► Like, "Ah, I'm all over the place."

01:16:11 ◼   ► So what is the, I'm trying to, I'm trying to approach. I can't, I know, I know.

01:16:14 ◼   ► I can't tell you. I know. I know.

01:16:16 ◼   ► I'm trying to approach the Jeremy's this time, like as a,

01:16:18 ◼   ► as a test for the actual Jeremy's in the fall. Like I'm trying to think,

01:16:23 ◼   ► what is the emotion that these emoji is meant to convey? Because I mean,

01:16:27 ◼   ► I got to do better at this game.

01:16:29 ◼   ► What is the emotion that is supposed to be conveyed here? So this is a, um,

01:16:34 ◼   ► when you are stressed out or when you are confused or,

01:16:40 ◼   ► I actually have a fun little story that I can tell while Federico is thinking.

01:16:46 ◼   ► So I was looking back through my messages today to see what it was that I sent so I

01:16:50 ◼   ► could give context to why I used it.

01:16:52 ◼   ► And if you remember the zwidge, remember our conversation about zwidges where they combine

01:16:58 ◼   ► emoji together to create a current emoji?

01:17:03 ◼   ► And so on my Mac that I'm talking to you right now, I haven't installed 11.3 yet.

01:17:09 ◼   ► And the two emojis that I combined to make this one are the face with the crossed eyes

01:17:16 ◼   ► and a shooting star.

01:17:17 ◼   ► What?

01:17:18 ◼   ► Because I looked at it and I was like "Why did I send that?

01:17:20 ◼   ► The shooting star emoji?"

01:17:21 ◼   ► It's like "Oh, because it was this one."

01:17:23 ◼   ► The shooting star?

01:17:25 ◼   ► Yeah, I will tell you right now Federico, it is not going to help you in understanding

01:17:29 ◼   ► what this is called.

01:17:30 ◼   ► I just want you to know that.

01:17:32 ◼   ► I'm just going to say "confused face".

01:17:35 ◼   ► Incorrect.

01:17:36 ◼   ► This is face with spiral eyes.

01:17:38 ◼   ► Oh my god, it's literally what I said at the beginning.

01:17:41 ◼   ► I view it as dizziness.

01:17:43 ◼   ► Right.

01:17:44 ◼   ► Or like being seasick maybe.

01:17:46 ◼   ► That's a good one.

01:17:48 ◼   ► So I'll tell you how I used it today.

01:17:49 ◼   ► So I was looking into the possibility of whether we would get a, this is not as big a topic

01:17:57 ◼   ► as it sounds like, a different office space.

01:18:00 ◼   ► Which is a ticket for the future.

01:18:03 ◼   ► Office spaces are available now, do we want to think about moving, like release will be

01:18:08 ◼   ► up. Elise is up already. The mega office? Oh no we've got a year, sorry, got a year, yeah we've got a year

01:18:14 ◼   ► left on mega studio. We've already passed a year of our two year lease. So we're just thinking like,

01:18:19 ◼   ► I know it's bananas, think about it now right like you know just let's just understand what the

01:18:24 ◼   ► market looks like and then we can maybe make a decision. And she found this place where it's

01:18:29 ◼   ► like for artists, like creative people, and their whole thing is no doors.

01:18:35 ◼   ► What?

01:18:37 ◼   ► And I sent back the grimacing emoji and the face for spiral eyes emoji to be

01:18:42 ◼   ► like, "Ah!" and I couldn't believe this, like my head would be spinning.

01:18:45 ◼   ► Imagine a place with no doors and how terrible that would be for me.

01:18:48 ◼   ► Mm-hmm. People just wander in and take your things?

01:18:51 ◼   ► It was just, I can't even imagine working in an environment like that.

01:18:55 ◼   ► Not that everybody needs offices, but just like your whole thing is there are no

01:18:59 ◼   ► doors in this place. It's like, okay. Yeah, it's weird. So, they're spiraling eyes. Dreamcast eyes.

01:19:04 ◼   ► Emoji number five, Federico. I will just save for context. Steven texted me today and said,

01:19:12 ◼   ► "Can't wait to hear what he says about this one." So, yeah, he got that going for you.

01:19:17 ◼   ► This is what you see when you're... Vaping? No. This is the steam room face. This is like,

01:19:26 ◼   ► you're in a steam room you open your eyes there's a creepy dude looking at

01:19:32 ◼   ► you and you see those eyes among the steam right it's like hey buddy any

01:19:40 ◼   ► whispers to you I bet people are always naked in Italian steam rooms oh yeah so

01:19:48 ◼   ► So this face, why is it a patch of faces? I never get the names of the faces right.

01:20:00 ◼   ► Face with steam. It's not that.

01:20:05 ◼   ► Incorrect. This is inexplicably facing clouds.

01:20:09 ◼   ► In clouds? Clouds of what?

01:20:12 ◼   ► How big is this face? Is this face as big as the sun?

01:20:16 ◼   ► I don't understand. What is this? Why? In clouds? What kind of clouds? Clouds. Okay.

01:20:26 ◼   ► Facing clouds, really. How, okay, so how are we going to use this emoji? Like, what's the

01:20:31 ◼   ► purpose of it? If it's, uh, I like it if you're going to sneak up on somebody or if you don't

01:20:38 ◼   ► want, oh, I know it. If someone asks you a question and you don't want to answer, you

01:20:41 ◼   ► know that gif where you sink back into the bushes? The Homer Simpson. It's, yeah, so Homer

01:20:46 ◼   ► Simpson. This is the emoji version of that. Like you're hiding. I like it for that. Okay, yeah.

01:20:50 ◼   ► Okay. I like it for that. It's good. That is good. Alright. Okay, so we've now moved away from kind

01:20:57 ◼   ► of like, these are the additions, the brand new emoji this year, and we're moving into more,

01:21:02 ◼   ► Whilst these are new, they are variations on existing emoji now.

01:21:07 ◼   ► So emoji number six.

01:21:10 ◼   ► Ah, okay.

01:21:11 ◼   ► So the number six and the number seven are, I guess, related.

01:21:16 ◼   ► My assumption here is that up until today, the beard emoji was only reserved for the

01:21:30 ◼   ► man character.

01:21:32 ◼   ► And so I am going to say that number 6 and number 7 are person...

01:21:38 ◼   ► So number 6 is person with beard and number 7 is woman with beard.

01:21:45 ◼   ► Oh nice.

01:21:47 ◼   ► Interesting facts for you boys.

01:21:49 ◼   ► So previously there was an emoji called person beard and it's the bearded man emoji that

01:21:56 ◼   ► we've known forever.

01:21:58 ◼   ► So Apple have actually switched out the art.

01:22:00 ◼   ► So any time that you would have seen now like a the old bearded guy emoji, it's now the

01:22:08 ◼   ► person.

01:22:09 ◼   ► So I, this is really hard to explain.

01:22:11 ◼   ► Here's what I just did to test this.

01:22:13 ◼   ► I was on my phone with 14.5 on it and I selected the person with beard emoji and I sent it

01:22:22 ◼   ► to you guys by text message and on my Mac it is showing the old emoji that is now man

01:22:28 ◼   ► with beard.

01:22:29 ◼   ► Hmm.

01:22:30 ◼   ► Does that make sense?

01:22:31 ◼   ► I think so.

01:22:32 ◼   ► So they've kind of created man with beard and woman with beard and then person with

01:22:37 ◼   ► beard is now the gender neutral version but they've changed the artwork out between those

01:22:43 ◼   ► two.

01:22:44 ◼   ► It's very weird.

01:22:45 ◼   ► It's hard to see why they do it but that stuff always gets a little bit confusing.

01:22:49 ◼   ► Interesting.

01:22:50 ◼   ► Okay.

01:22:51 ◼   ► So there you go.

01:22:52 ◼   ► Emoji number eight.

01:22:56 ◼   ► emoji and then the next emoji is why all the articles say there is 270 emojis

01:23:02 ◼   ► because these next two have like various variations of gender and race that have

01:23:08 ◼   ► been added to them yeah I and I don't know like how they called these so no so

01:23:18 ◼   ► this we're looking at number eight okay so it's a couple right I'm assuming like

01:23:30 ◼   ► they gave a different name to the different combinations of genders and

01:23:37 ◼   ► races there's only one name for the emoji and then you can just choose

01:23:43 ◼   ► between them all in the same way that like I'll tell you one of the people

01:23:47 ◼   ► emoji. There's one name, right? Because all of the people emoji, they have one name,

01:23:51 ◼   ► but you can choose between races between them, right? So the emoji has just one

01:23:56 ◼   ► name. What is difficult for me here is that number eight and number nine,

01:24:05 ◼   ► they both show a couple. However, the... on the number eight, there's a...

01:24:18 ◼   ► there's a... what's the difference between these two? Are you sure these are not

01:24:23 ◼   ► like the same emoji just with difference? No, these are two different emoji, Federico.

01:24:26 ◼   ► Oh! If there's one thing I know how to do, it's prepare the genres. Number nine, they are

01:24:33 ◼   ► are sort of kissing.

01:24:34 ◼   ► And number eight, okay, number eight is couple.

01:24:39 ◼   ► Oh no.

01:24:40 ◼   ► - That is incorrect.

01:24:41 ◼   ► - And number nine is couple kissing.

01:24:43 ◼   ► - That is incorrect.

01:24:44 ◼   ► - Oh no.

01:24:45 ◼   ► - You completely ruined it for yourself.

01:24:47 ◼   ► It's the other way around.

01:24:48 ◼   ► Couple with heart and kiss.

01:24:52 ◼   ► - But this is not fair because even the couple kissing

01:24:55 ◼   ► has a heart in the middle.

01:24:57 ◼   ► - I can't help you.

01:24:58 ◼   ► - The names are bad.

01:24:59 ◼   ► - I'm sorry.

01:25:00 ◼   ► The names are what they are.

01:25:01 ◼   ► you know, I don't control the names.

01:25:03 ◼   ► But you can still win.

01:25:06 ◼   ► You have four right and five wrong.

01:25:08 ◼   ► OK, OK.

01:25:09 ◼   ► You can still pull this out.

01:25:11 ◼   ► This is going to be a close one.

01:25:12 ◼   ► And these last two, they should be easy ones for you because they're existing emoji.

01:25:17 ◼   ► So, OK, so this the number, what's it, number 10?

01:25:21 ◼   ► So they gave the AirPods Max design, just like they did with the iPhone and the Apple

01:25:28 ◼   ► watch before to an existing emoji called headphones. I know because the headphone emoji

01:25:35 ◼   ► we talked about it a few years ago. This one, this is an existing emoji. I've seen it before

01:25:45 ◼   ► on twitter for but there was blood in it and I'm gonna guess that the update like this

01:25:56 ◼   ► this emoji is here because Apple updated it and I guess that this new version

01:26:01 ◼   ► doesn't have blood but has some generic liquid in it. Still it's pretty easy for

01:26:08 ◼   ► me because it's the same name in Italy this is a syringe. Correct! This is

01:26:17 ◼   ► obviously now the vaccination emoji. Right. Which is why they removed what was

01:26:21 ◼   ► previously like a blood test yes you know final score please the final score

01:26:29 ◼   ► correct six incorrect five congratulations thanks I kind of wanted

01:26:36 ◼   ► to do better squeak 10 on this one Federico I'm not gonna lie I need to

01:26:40 ◼   ► have more points I yeah yeah but what the one thing I'll say to you is wasn't

01:26:45 ◼   ► really a lot of room for error this time around so I was very happy that we had

01:26:49 ◼   ► have these two extra ones to give you that little boost. Thank you. Thank you

01:26:53 ◼   ► so I won, so I'm on a winning streak between the apple event and the emoji.

01:26:59 ◼   ► There's nothing a champion of Ricky's and Jeremy's right. There's nothing I

01:27:03 ◼   ► cannot win these days. All right, yes, all right. I'm very happy. We got one

01:27:11 ◼   ► last thing we need to do. Okay,

01:27:13 ◼   ► I need to share something with you all just real quick, just on any other way

01:27:19 ◼   ► know this all it says in the document is Stevens extra topic me and Federico have

01:27:24 ◼   ► absolutely no idea what this is yeah what's going on so I don't know I've

01:27:27 ◼   ► kept it from you and I just need to share this with you about something I'm

01:27:32 ◼   ► gonna walk out of the room so something well in a way it's a purchase I guess

01:27:40 ◼   ► god I swear I'm gonna hang my headphones here I'm gonna I'm gonna send you all an

01:27:46 ◼   ► image of something. Oh hang on a minute. An image. Oh my god he did it. Oh yeah. Well no this I totally accept.

01:27:55 ◼   ► Oh my god. So. Well. I need to tell a little bit of a story now because it's happening again. Oh my god. I can't believe people keep doing this to me.

01:28:03 ◼   ► Myke have you looked in the middle of it? Yes.

01:28:11 ◼   ► so people keep doing this to me so yesterday Stephen booked himself in for

01:28:16 ◼   ► a tattoo and he was getting his sleeve filled in and because Stephen has a

01:28:25 ◼   ► sleeve and he sent us a picture and before the call today I said to Stephen

01:28:30 ◼   ► you didn't show us the rest of it and he's like oh yeah I'll send you an image

01:28:35 ◼   ► and as soon as it changed it said Stephen's extra topic in a document it

01:28:39 ◼   ► started dawning on me but he never sent me the image so Steven now has added a

01:28:46 ◼   ► line art version of the weird fish emoji to his do you have both have it in the

01:28:52 ◼   ► same place yes it's in the lane by step it's in the same spot yeah well mine's

01:28:57 ◼   ► on my right arm but yeah Myke

01:29:05 ◼   ► Well, Stephen, how did you explain the thing to your tattoo person?

01:29:11 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah. So I had to, uh, I had to do some explaining. So the sleeve is like space motif.

01:29:19 ◼   ► So I added like the Hubble telescope and a black hole and some other planets. And then

01:29:23 ◼   ► I came up with a line art version of the weird fish emoji and my tattoo artist was like,

01:29:28 ◼   ► well, that's not really like a space thing. Um, is that, is that COVID? I said, well,

01:29:34 ◼   ► Yeah, that's the problem with getting it today, huh?

01:29:36 ◼   ► I appreciate the guts that you had in trying to have to explain that to someone.

01:29:40 ◼   ► Yep.

01:29:41 ◼   ► So I had to explain, "Well, I'm on a podcast with this guy from Italy,

01:29:45 ◼   ► and we have this game."

01:29:47 ◼   ► Oh, God.

01:29:49 ◼   ► Can you come up with something else?

01:29:51 ◼   ► So, yeah. So, there it is.

01:29:53 ◼   ► Bravo to you.

01:29:55 ◼   ► Bravo to you.

01:29:57 ◼   ► I hate you for this.

01:29:59 ◼   ► Yeah, you're next. He's incredible.

01:30:00 ◼   ► Because you've now put this on me.

01:30:02 ◼   ► The thing is, the two of you have tattoos in that area of your body.

01:30:07 ◼   ► Yeah, I do now.

01:30:08 ◼   ► So if I have to get it in the same place, it would be literally the only thing on my

01:30:11 ◼   ► arm.

01:30:12 ◼   ► Beautiful.

01:30:13 ◼   ► Perfect.

01:30:14 ◼   ► Oh my god.

01:30:16 ◼   ► Do I have to get it in the same place?

01:30:18 ◼   ► Oh yeah.

01:30:19 ◼   ► I mean, yes.

01:30:20 ◼   ► Clearly.

01:30:21 ◼   ► My god, Steven, this is...

01:30:22 ◼   ► Alright, I need to start thinking about this.

01:30:24 ◼   ► And I also need to talk to my wife about this.

01:30:26 ◼   ► This is a conversation I need to have at home before I'm talking to you about it.

01:30:31 ◼   ► Oh my god.

01:30:32 ◼   ► I just thought that you were going to share the photo of the final design and

01:30:37 ◼   ► then I opened the photo with quick look and it got bigger and I saw it right

01:30:42 ◼   ► there in the middle it's I had the thought and then as soon as I all I saw

01:30:46 ◼   ► was his arm and I just knew it was somewhere and I had to wait and find it

01:30:51 ◼   ► Bravo Stephen Hackett Bravo to you Bravo to you you know and I wanted to do it in

01:30:56 ◼   ► my own way because you know none of my sleeve or anything has any color sure

01:31:00 ◼   ► And so I was like, well, just do an outliney version.

01:31:03 ◼   ► Yeah, and my arm is full color.

01:31:05 ◼   ► So obviously also the emojis is green and everything.

01:31:09 ◼   ► And so Myke needs to come up with his own version.

01:31:13 ◼   ► I'll do it my own way.

01:31:14 ◼   ► The invisible tattoo way.

01:31:16 ◼   ► Nope, nope.

01:31:17 ◼   ► That's my way.

01:31:19 ◼   ► My way is the invisible tattoo way.

01:31:22 ◼   ► I already have it.

01:31:23 ◼   ► Did I not tell you?

01:31:24 ◼   ► That's not how it works.

01:31:26 ◼   ► Steven, this is beautiful.

01:31:27 ◼   ► Thank you.

01:31:28 ◼   ► I was not expecting this. How long ago did you have this done? Was it like two

01:31:32 ◼   ► years ago? Yeah, last episode we did together twenty nineteen.

01:31:37 ◼   ► Okay, so I have two years then, but to work out how to do this sure it's fine

01:31:43 ◼   ► sure yeah. I did mine last night, so that picture is kind of kind of gross and

01:31:48 ◼   ► swollen, but it gets the point across your swell. What can we say? Well, I

01:31:52 ◼   ► think that does it. I definitely does what an episode this is one for the

01:31:57 ◼   ► ages huh we got range for sure like if there's one thing we got like I've made

01:32:07 ◼   ► up for not having a Federico photo album we have matching tattoos yes I will

01:32:11 ◼   ► you have matching tattoos for both of us that's true Federico me and you need

01:32:16 ◼   ► nothing to get a matching tattoo just for the two of us okay okay this is it

01:32:22 ◼   ► we have to decide now do we want the three of us to have a matching tattoo

01:32:25 ◼   ► like or do we just want to do it in twos yeah because me and Steven both have the

01:32:31 ◼   ► relay fifth artwork right there's literally the same tattoo though which

01:32:35 ◼   ► is a little bit different but and now the two of you have a matching tattoo

01:32:39 ◼   ► so to me and you need to get matching tattoos or do I need to get one and

01:32:43 ◼   ► join the two of you. It's up to you Myke you can either get your hand tattooed or you can

01:32:48 ◼   ► get a full sleeve or you can get a giant lion on your leg. So your

01:32:53 ◼   ► whole thing is if for us to have a matching tattoo I have to get like all

01:32:56 ◼   ► of it I can't just get a little bit you have to replicate his entire sleeve oh

01:33:00 ◼   ► no you gotta get the whole thing oh boy sure yeah no we'll think about it if you

01:33:09 ◼   ► want to find links to stuff we spoke about head on over to our website it's

01:33:14 ◼   ► relay.fm / connected / 343 while you're there you can send us an email with

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01:33:25 ◼   ► connected Pro which is a longer ad free version of the show each and every week

01:33:29 ◼   ► and as a reminder starting on April 29th that is tomorrow as I'm speaking

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01:33:41 ◼   ► our members connected is going first so go go check those out going fast yes

01:33:47 ◼   ► we're leading the way imperceptible Federico just imperceptible I don't know

01:34:00 ◼   ► what it was but I'm tingling I don't know where it was membership yeah oh yes

01:34:05 ◼   ► if you want to find us online I got distracted by the whispering if you want

01:34:09 ◼   ► to find us online we're around you can find Myke on Twitter as I am y ke Myke

01:34:13 ◼   ► Myke is the host of a bunch of shows here on Relay FM.

01:34:18 ◼   ► Myke is there anything you want to share this week?

01:34:21 ◼   ► - This is completely off the beaten track of shows,

01:34:26 ◼   ► but people may know that I created a journal product

01:34:29 ◼   ► called The Theme System Journal, along with CGP Grey,

01:34:32 ◼   ► and it's like a notebook.

01:34:33 ◼   ► Well, we have just created a blank dot grid notebook

01:34:37 ◼   ► based on the same design.

01:34:38 ◼   ► So if you haven't had a journal or you enjoy your journal,

01:34:43 ◼   ► products called the subtle notebook you can get it at cortex much calm cool they

01:34:47 ◼   ► look really good I love the the cover color a lot thank you thank you you can

01:34:52 ◼   ► find Federico online he is Vitici on Twitter vit ICCI and he is the editor and

01:34:58 ◼   ► chief of max stories net and the champion of the Jeremy's April 2021

01:35:05 ◼   ► congratulations again mm-hmm thank you send you a heart on fire emoji just a

01:35:10 ◼   ► second appreciate yep true passion you can find me on Twitter as is mh I also

01:35:16 ◼   ► host a bunch of shows here on relay FM and I write over at 512 pixels dotnet

01:35:22 ◼   ► now if you do like podcasts and you probably do because you're listening to

01:35:26 ◼   ► one right now go check out material here on relay FM each week Andy and flow talk

01:35:33 ◼   ► about what's going on in the world of Google and Android it's great show it's

01:35:37 ◼   ► how I keep up with that side of things to go follow along at relay.fm/material

01:35:43 ◼   ► or search for material wherever you get your podcasts. Google IO is just a couple

01:35:48 ◼   ► of weeks away did you know that? I know very soon. May, May, May. They didn't do it

01:35:53 ◼   ► last year so it's I kind of it fell off my radar a little bit. Mm-hmm. I'd like to

01:35:58 ◼   ► thank our sponsors this week Privacy, Memberful and Bombas and until next week

01:36:03 ◼   ► gentlemen say goodbye.

01:36:05 ◼   ► Arrivederci.

01:36:06 ◼   ► Cheerio!

01:36:07 ◼   ► Oh, there's a lot of delay again.

01:36:13 ◼   ► Bye y'all.

01:36:14 ◼   ► Oh wow, it got really bad in the end.