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Cortex

115: A Streaming Intervention

 

00:00:00   I have a question for you.

00:00:01   Have you ever had a hangover?

00:00:02   - Why, what do you mean have you ever had a hangover?

00:00:05   - It's a thick and some valid question.

00:00:06   Not everybody's had a hangover in their life, you know?

00:00:08   - I mean, I guess it is true.

00:00:10   Not everyone has had a hangover.

00:00:12   Obviously everyone who is under age

00:00:14   has yet to experience a hangover.

00:00:16   There may be other reasons why you've never had a hangover.

00:00:19   I haven't had a lot, but I've had them.

00:00:22   Why do you ask?

00:00:23   Are you hungover for this recording?

00:00:24   - No.

00:00:25   Have you ever experienced that feeling from working?

00:00:28   (sighs)

00:00:30   Okay.

00:00:33   - 'Cause this happened to me yesterday.

00:00:35   - You had a work hangover.

00:00:36   - I had a work hangover, I think, for the first time.

00:00:39   And it's not something that I knew existed.

00:00:42   I don't know if it does exist,

00:00:44   but yesterday I felt horrifically hungover

00:00:47   and I had no alcohol the day before.

00:00:49   And the only thing that I can attest it to

00:00:53   is the fact that I was working until, I don't know,

00:00:56   like one in the morning.

00:00:58   and still trying to stay awake with caffeine and food

00:01:03   at a time when I should have definitely been sleeping.

00:01:06   - Right, you've been spending all your cortisol

00:01:08   and adrenaline on getting things done.

00:01:11   - Yeah.

00:01:12   - And then you are tapped out, my friend.

00:01:16   Yeah, no, work hangover, I think that's a real thing

00:01:18   if you've really been going for a whole bunch.

00:01:20   Work hangovers, yes, regular hangovers, not so much,

00:01:23   but I'm sorry to hear that you had a work hangover,

00:01:25   though it is completely understandable

00:01:28   because it is Apple events time, which I totally knew about

00:01:32   before you messaged me about it and I saw it

00:01:34   in the show notes.

00:01:35   (laughing)

00:01:38   It's a busy week for you.

00:01:40   - Yeah, so Tuesday was when the event was

00:01:42   and they're obviously later in time anyway, right?

00:01:45   So if I'm recording, which I am, I recorded with Jason,

00:01:48   we do our kind of like post event analysis.

00:01:51   I can't start that until we're ended.

00:01:53   And then I also had some meetings,

00:01:56   which to get some more information about the product.

00:01:58   So all of that just kept pushing the day on and on and on.

00:02:02   And I think adrenaline is one of the things

00:02:04   that I can assume was a big factor for how I was feeling.

00:02:09   Because I had like a weird feeling after I was finished,

00:02:11   like it was kind of like one in the morning,

00:02:13   I was super hungry and I was like incredibly sweaty.

00:02:16   And so like I can assume, yeah lovely right?

00:02:19   I can assume it must have been adrenaline based.

00:02:22   And I think that set me up for a bad Wednesday.

00:02:27   I was bad, it was so bad.

00:02:30   And I still had a bunch of stuff to do.

00:02:32   We did an interview for next week's upgrade

00:02:35   and again, I'm trying to like get through it.

00:02:37   And I just, I felt like I was, I don't know,

00:02:40   like 22 again or something.

00:02:41   - Yeah, I could see in my head, Myke,

00:02:43   with the sunglasses as you're recording a podcast

00:02:48   and drinking coffee.

00:02:49   - From underneath my desk.

00:02:51   - Yeah. - In the fetal position.

00:02:53   It reminded me of when,

00:02:55   so I used to work in retail banking

00:02:58   and my very first jobs in that field

00:03:01   was actually working in the bank branches,

00:03:04   opening bank accounts and that kind of stuff.

00:03:07   And I remember what it was like to work Saturdays

00:03:09   having gone out on Fridays.

00:03:11   They were rough times, man.

00:03:13   And that's what I felt like yesterday.

00:03:15   - I'm so sorry.

00:03:19   Because that's the worst thing then, the hangover is having to do something, right?

00:03:24   Working through a hangover is one of the most excruciating things a person can go through.

00:03:29   It's so bad. Like, if you have to sit in a meeting, you know?

00:03:32   The universe feels unjust in those moments.

00:03:35   And so I've discovered that it's possible now, maybe this is in my advancing age,

00:03:44   that now I can just work too hard and get a hangover, which is not a thing that I knew.

00:03:48   I had to consider, but I guess that's kind of where I am in my mid-30s now.

00:03:53   Happy birthday! Here's a new problem for you.

00:03:56   Oh, I'm so sorry, Myke. I'm so sorry that this is now a thing that can be part of your annual life.

00:04:04   Yeah, maybe. I made a decision though, which was a pretty good one.

00:04:08   I had like a positive thinking kind of moment, you know, like a positive mental attitude kind

00:04:12   of moment. It was like, I was looking at my calendar and these weeks they were just like,

00:04:16   it's like dropping a nuclear bomb into my calendar because there is a moment on the Tuesday that is

00:04:22   where like the bomb hits and then the shockwave hits out across the rest of the calendar as all

00:04:27   of my shows will start getting moved around. It's kind of an incredible thing. It's like this event

00:04:32   occurs and then this has to move and this has to move and then having moved that means I need to

00:04:37   move this and how you know and it's just like this. I've heard it described as silly season.

00:04:42   My friend Merlin calls it silly season which is like if one person who's in a podcast goes

00:04:46   goes on vacation, the effect of that person

00:04:49   going on vacation can be felt across

00:04:51   like four different podcasts, right?

00:04:53   So I was looking at all of this and I was assessing

00:04:55   the amount of work that I had to do

00:04:57   and all these extra things and all my editing projects

00:04:59   that I'm gonna have to do.

00:05:01   And I made the decision in that moment

00:05:03   to not look at this as, oh man, this is so much to do.

00:05:08   But to choose to feel grateful for it

00:05:13   because this is what I wanted.

00:05:15   And it is what I wanted, right?

00:05:16   this is what I signed up for, all of this stuff.

00:05:18   When I set out on this path to try and attain the career

00:05:21   that I have, it was to get these moments.

00:05:25   So this week especially, I am appreciating the work more

00:05:30   than thinking, oh man, this is gonna be hard to get done.

00:05:35   I'm just choosing to feel grateful for it

00:05:37   instead of tired about it.

00:05:39   - I think that's really good because I think about the Myke

00:05:43   who I first met, and he would be thrilled to hear how busy your week is because of the

00:05:51   things that you're able to do.

00:05:52   Yeah, the opportunities and that kind of stuff.

00:05:54   You really work towards this over the years, and this is a good example of where trying

00:06:00   to reframe something really can work.

00:06:02   You know, it's like with the journals and if you use them for gratitude journaling,

00:06:05   like I always say, it's frustratingly effective, but this is one of the reasons why that stuff

00:06:09   kind of works is you can, to a limited extent, reframe things under the right circumstances

00:06:16   and choosing to be grateful for all of the stuff that you get to do this week is like

00:06:23   I'm glad to hear that you did that after hearing that you had to go through your work hangover

00:06:27   while also working with your sunglasses on and drinking your coffee.

00:06:31   And the electrolytes. I was I was burning up on electrolytes yesterday. Is I gonna get

00:06:36   those in?

00:06:37   Electrolytes and bone broth, all to be perky on a podcast.

00:06:41   [laughter]

00:06:43   Not a fan of bone broth?

00:06:45   I don't like the words.

00:06:46   I never really thought about it.

00:06:48   Look, you just- Myke, you just grind up a bunch of bones,

00:06:51   you broth them, and then you drink them.

00:06:53   How doth one broth something?

00:06:56   Look, I don't know.

00:06:57   I'm not a witch with a cauldron, you know, mixing these things together.

00:07:01   Toil, toil, bubble in trouble or whatever, I don't know.

00:07:04   I have mute and all that stuff, yeah.

00:07:06   [BEEP]

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00:09:09   I opened our document a couple of days ago and was met with something that I couldn't conceive of.

00:09:16   Oh, this is the thing I forgot about. Is this the Slack notification flow chart?

00:09:22   Yes. So I'm going to put a link in the show notes to what I ended up finding,

00:09:29   which is a blog post from Slack's engineering team

00:09:32   where they show off this flow chart.

00:09:34   And we can talk about what this is in a minute

00:09:36   and why it's here.

00:09:37   But when I first saw this, I thought you had made this.

00:09:41   - Oh no, no.

00:09:41   - And this was something that you were trying to,

00:09:44   I don't know, tell me how I should be sending notifications

00:09:47   to you in our Slack or something.

00:09:48   I was like, oh God.

00:09:50   I could just imagine you and your assistant coming up

00:09:53   with this system of like, when can Gray be notified?

00:09:57   And that's what I originally thought this was.

00:09:59   - I actually kind of like that as an idea.

00:10:01   Like the when and how to approach gray, the flow chart.

00:10:05   I like that, but maybe I should make that.

00:10:06   - I mean, honestly I would like that

00:10:08   because then I would know when I can alert you or not.

00:10:10   Right, like what are the types of messages

00:10:12   which warrant the @gray and where do they go?

00:10:16   Because I will say, since we created the Cortex brand Slack,

00:10:20   our communication has gotten much more complicated.

00:10:22   - Yes it has. - 'Cause now we have

00:10:24   three places. - Three places.

00:10:25   And I never really know now where to put things again.

00:10:29   I think we need to have a meeting about this

00:10:32   'cause it's, everything's gotten more complicated again.

00:10:36   - Yeah, it definitely has gotten more complicated.

00:10:38   And also in all fairness to you,

00:10:39   this is where I am completely unhelpful with the show notes

00:10:43   because I was sent this diagram as like,

00:10:46   oh my God, look at how complicated Slack notifications are.

00:10:49   And I thought, oh, I'm gonna forget about this.

00:10:51   Let me just quickly drop it into the show notes.

00:10:53   with no context, right?

00:10:55   Not a sentence or anything.

00:10:56   I just dropped it in as an image.

00:10:58   And then of course, promptly forgot that I had ever put it in there.

00:11:02   So you're presented with this, how to run a nuclear power station level flow chart

00:11:07   that is absolutely nothing surrounding it.

00:11:10   I just wanted this as, as a little bit of like follow up to our conversations

00:11:14   where I sometimes express frustration about notifications.

00:11:18   And we've talked about Slack a whole bunch and even to this day, still

00:11:23   find it really endlessly frustrating about what do I or do not get notified about in Slack.

00:11:30   And Slack is one of these weird cases where it tends to be the reverse of I actually want

00:11:35   more notifications from this system, but I sometimes find it hard to get the ones that

00:11:40   I'm looking for. But anyway, so this flowchart, I just put it in here to visually show how it is

00:11:48   actually incredibly complicated about does or does not Slack notify

00:11:54   you when a message takes place.

00:11:56   And I was really relieved to see this, to think, okay, it is not just me.

00:12:01   This flowchart must have what?

00:12:03   Two dozen boxes on it, all with yes/no options of, you know, is it here?

00:12:10   Is it there?

00:12:10   Is it under this circumstance?

00:12:12   What's the global state, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:12:14   And so that's why I put it here.

00:12:16   This to me is like vindication flowchart.

00:12:19   Slack notifications are super complicated.

00:12:22   - It's also an incredible example of how

00:12:25   you add complication by adding new features.

00:12:29   - Yes, yes. - Me and Adina

00:12:30   were talking about this yesterday.

00:12:31   She started selling some prints of the comics

00:12:35   that she's been doing.

00:12:35   She wanted to test it out.

00:12:38   And she wanted to set up Instagram shopping, right?

00:12:41   'Cause you can buy things in Instagram.

00:12:43   - Oh, I didn't know that, okay.

00:12:44   Yeah, it integrates with Shopify, I think, and you can just sell stuff.

00:12:48   So it's physical prints of the artwork.

00:12:50   Yeah, she has some postcards made, it's like a test of a thing that she wants to try and do more of.

00:12:54   Mhm.

00:12:55   And she's also doing this as a test for us, for Clothix brand, right?

00:12:59   Right.

00:13:00   It's like, "Why don't you do this and tell me how it goes?"

00:13:02   "We'll see if this is a thing we want to do in the future, I don't know."

00:13:05   Right, it's great to have tasks have two purposes.

00:13:08   Yeah, exactly.

00:13:08   Two purposes is one purposes, so yeah, that's great.

00:13:11   And so to do it, she had to set up a Facebook page for her Instagram account and link them.

00:13:19   To do a lot of stuff on Instagram, you have to have a Facebook page attached to it, like

00:13:23   to do ads and stuff like that.

00:13:25   So she created the Facebook page, but now it refuses to link them.

00:13:29   Like she's hit some bug and she found a bunch of Reddit threads where people have been having

00:13:33   this bug for months.

00:13:35   And we were talking about it last night and it was like, this is an example of you start

00:13:40   with a product and then you have a bunch of other features and you keep adding like 20

00:13:44   layers on top because it doesn't make any sense why to make ads on Instagram you need

00:13:50   a Facebook page other than the fact which is this is the only way they could do it without

00:13:55   having to remake their system every time so you just keep adding more and more dependencies

00:13:59   on top of everything else and like that's this thing with Slack of like because they

00:14:04   added threads in, it added like 20 more boxes on this flowchart.

00:14:11   You can see the word "thread message" in question marks all over the place because

00:14:14   they added this feature in.

00:14:16   This is like a perfect example of how you can make things more complicated for yourself

00:14:21   because you try to do them in the most expedient way, which is to just add a feature on top

00:14:27   rather than trying to fully integrate it.

00:14:30   This is not a criticism on any of these companies because they all do this, right?

00:14:34   This is just, you can't every time you have an idea remake all of Facebook.

00:14:38   You can't, you know, it's like, "Oh, we've had this great idea.

00:14:41   Great.

00:14:42   We need to start again with Facebook so we can properly integrate this."

00:14:45   It doesn't work like that.

00:14:47   But this is how you end up building these layers upon layers of complexities in such

00:14:51   that to send a notification, there is one of the most complicated flowcharts I've ever

00:14:56   seen.

00:14:57   Yeah, it's great.

00:14:58   And then you think this also then interacts with, if you're me, your

00:15:03   notification system on the phone, right?

00:15:05   All of this is like before the notification even gets into Apple's system.

00:15:09   Right.

00:15:10   Which is, you know, so it's like, Oh great.

00:15:12   All of these complicated flow charts are interacting with

00:15:15   other complicated flow charts.

00:15:16   So anyway, it just, I wanted to throw it in here as like, Oh God, it's incredible.

00:15:22   How complicated software can be.

00:15:25   And this is one of the few cases where I feel like I dramatically underestimated what the

00:15:31   scope of the problem really is.

00:15:33   It's like, oh, I thought I was managing five things, but I didn't realize, oh, there's

00:15:37   10 things here.

00:15:38   This is why I can never quite get Slack to work the way that I want to.

00:15:44   And I even learned new things from this flow chart of like, oh, there's the difference

00:15:48   between @channel, @everyone, and @here.

00:15:54   in my head I just sort of mushed them all together, but it's amazing to see this where it's like, "Oh,

00:16:00   okay, this is a mention. It's an @here mention. Is the user active? Like, are they in Slack right

00:16:06   now?" You know, no, then they won't get notified. It's like, "Oh, but if you're using @everyone,

00:16:11   it's like, yes, they will get notified unless the channel mentions are suppressed, then they won't."

00:16:17   Right? It's like, it's incredible how complicated this is. To go to your point, you can easily see

00:16:22   how someone at some point says, "You know, you don't always want to mention everyone in a channel.

00:16:29   You literally want to know who is here right now." And you go, "Oh yeah, that's a good idea. That's

00:16:34   a useful feature." But then fast forward to onboarding new users a year later, and since

00:16:41   they haven't seen each of the pieces come in and like read the changelogs as they get added,

00:16:47   You just go, "Oh, @here, @everywhere, yeah, all of this is like, how do I talk to everyone in the channel thing?"

00:16:53   It's a very hard design problem, like, I do not envy...

00:16:57   Just to be clear, this is not me being like, "Oh, Slack is ridiculous."

00:17:00   This is more like, I just don't envy the engineers who have to work on it, and

00:17:06   for a tool that is attempting to manage,

00:17:09   how does everyone in a company communicate with everyone else?

00:17:13   It's a really, really hard problem to solve.

00:17:16   We get to do that thing that we rarely do where there's some kind of like breaking news

00:17:20   that we can bring into the show because before we started recording today the WWDC rumors

00:17:26   started right?

00:17:27   Oh okay.

00:17:28   I want to read you a paragraph from a Bloomberg report from Mark Gellin because I think you

00:17:31   might like this.

00:17:32   Okay.

00:17:33   I know you hate the rumors when I'm telling you anyway.

00:17:34   Yeah I'm like why are you telling me rumors?

00:17:37   Because this is particularly exciting for you.

00:17:39   But they're nonsense.

00:17:40   It's just a rumor.

00:17:41   It's just not real.

00:17:42   The company is planning a new feature that will allow users to set different notification

00:17:47   preferences, such as if the phone makes a sound or not, depending on their current status.

00:17:52   The enhancement will come in the form of a new menu that lets users select if they are

00:17:56   driving, working, sleeping, or custom categories that they are choosing.

00:17:59   The menu will be shown on the updated lock screen and in Control Center.

00:18:02   So basically, you may be able to, with iOS 15, say "Hey, I'm working now" and then your

00:18:10   phone will send you a very limited set of notifications that you can customize.

00:18:14   Imagine that life.

00:18:15   Yeah, okay, so this is why I don't like rumors, because now you put me in a terrible position.

00:18:18   Yeah, I know.

00:18:19   I like to do this to you.

00:18:20   Because now you're like, "Oh, now I want it."

00:18:22   Because now you think it might be out there.

00:18:23   This is very fun for me.

00:18:25   Right.

00:18:26   So yeah, if this doesn't happen, I will be disappointed.

00:18:28   If it does happen, I will also take credit for the existence of this feature.

00:18:32   I'll just assumeā€¦

00:18:33   I mean, this is, without a shadow of a doubt, this only exists because people that make

00:18:37   iOS listen to you complain.

00:18:39   It's like, look, Apple engineers, I know you're there.

00:18:41   I know you can hear me now.

00:18:43   So I am gonna completely take credit if this feature exists.

00:18:48   But then that only serves to redouble my disappointment

00:18:51   if it doesn't happen.

00:18:52   So thanks a lot, Myke.

00:18:53   - This is like the many years of dark mode.

00:18:55   - Right, yeah, no, this is great.

00:18:59   Breaking news in Cortex, I give it two thumbs down.

00:19:01   Do not want, do not repeat, do not notify, please.

00:19:06   - We have a new product that I'm very excited about.

00:19:08   The subtle notebook.

00:19:10   - The subtle notebook.

00:19:11   - Love it.

00:19:11   - So we obviously have worked very hard

00:19:13   on creating the theme system journal

00:19:15   and we've had a lot of great feedback about it

00:19:17   'cause people just really like to use

00:19:19   the theme system journal.

00:19:20   So we decided to take all of the work that we have done

00:19:23   in creating a fantastic paper product

00:19:26   that is really nice to use

00:19:28   and turn it into just a regular notebook.

00:19:31   So if you love your theme system journal,

00:19:32   now you can write all of your notes

00:19:34   in a book made just like it.

00:19:36   Or if for some reason you've been wondering,

00:19:37   hey what's all this fuss about?

00:19:39   But you don't want to be a journal person,

00:19:41   which I don't understand if you don't,

00:19:42   I think everybody should get a theme system journal,

00:19:44   but nevertheless, now we have a product for you.

00:19:47   So it's made exactly the same with the same materials.

00:19:50   It has a different cover,

00:19:51   which is a wonderful kind of slightly metallic blue

00:19:54   with a more subtle logo,

00:19:55   but otherwise is constructed identically

00:19:58   to the theme system journal.

00:19:59   It has dot grid, number pages, corner perforations

00:20:02   so you can keep your place, and a lay flat design.

00:20:05   It's on sale now at cortexmerch.com.

00:20:08   - Yeah, I've got mine right here, right next to me.

00:20:10   Obviously, Myke designed, it's beautiful.

00:20:13   And yeah, if you are looking for a high quality notebook,

00:20:18   it is obviously, we recommend it.

00:20:20   It's great, I love it.

00:20:21   And it's taken all of the work that you've done

00:20:24   for the theme system and notebookified it.

00:20:27   And I also just really love that when you pitched this

00:20:31   to me the first time, it was,

00:20:33   We want to take the subtle shirt and turn it into a notebook.

00:20:37   And that's exactly what has happened.

00:20:38   I 100% love that it matches this shirt so well,

00:20:42   like with a nice subtle logo on the side.

00:20:44   It's, I love it.

00:20:45   It's so good.

00:20:46   - It is a notebook version of a t-shirt.

00:20:50   - Yes. - That's what we've made.

00:20:51   - Yeah.

00:20:52   You're listening to Cortex right now.

00:20:54   What more do you need to know?

00:20:56   Cortexmerch.com.

00:20:59   - We need to talk about live streaming.

00:21:01   - Do we?

00:21:02   Why? Why do we need to talk about live streaming?

00:21:04   - I think for a couple of reasons.

00:21:05   One, I have been live streaming weekly for six months now.

00:21:10   So I wanted to check in on how that's been going for me,

00:21:13   but also because you're a live streaming machine

00:21:15   who can't be stopped.

00:21:16   - No, I don't know if that's true.

00:21:18   Okay, if we're going to talk about live streaming,

00:21:21   what it actually needs to be is I need to learn

00:21:24   from your experience of live streaming.

00:21:27   - Gray, that's partly why we're having this conversation.

00:21:31   - Okay, is this like a streaming intervention

00:21:33   that's actually occurring? - A little bit.

00:21:35   - Hey, we need to talk about your streaming.

00:21:37   - There's some stuff that we need to talk about,

00:21:39   but there's other parts that I'm just intrigued about.

00:21:41   So to kind of give everybody a refresher,

00:21:44   I have been streaming weekly at mike.live

00:21:47   with keyboard related content.

00:21:49   This is my new hobby and I've really been enjoying it.

00:21:52   And every Friday I've been doing a stream

00:21:54   for an hour or two where I might be building something

00:21:58   or looking at some upcoming products.

00:22:00   This is kind of called like group buyer reviews.

00:22:02   We look at stuff that's coming down the line

00:22:03   and I give my thoughts and opinions on the designs.

00:22:06   And now that I'm back in the studio more,

00:22:09   I'm thinking about maybe doing more streams

00:22:11   and I've actually been wanting to do

00:22:12   some game stuff as well.

00:22:14   And I can maybe do that on different days in the week.

00:22:16   So I've really been enjoying it.

00:22:18   And I wanna talk a little bit about some of the changes

00:22:20   that I've gone through,

00:22:22   especially from an equipment perspective

00:22:24   and also talk about some of the stuff that I've learned

00:22:26   from having done this for another like six months.

00:22:29   So that's where I am right now, but now I want to kind of get everybody up to speed

00:22:33   and where you are too, so in the past you've been doing some director's commentary live

00:22:37   streams, right?

00:22:38   That's something you've been doing for a while when you post a big video.

00:22:41   Yeah, I feel like it's been about a year, I guess, that I've been doing that.

00:22:45   I think since the Tumbleweeds video, that was the first one.

00:22:48   Yes, yeah.

00:22:49   And so, you know, my understanding is that's like a perk for Patreon too, right?

00:22:52   They get like the video and stuff, your direct support gets the videos.

00:22:55   And you've done some occasional game streams, mostly Mario Kart, if memory serves, right?

00:23:01   But in the past week or so, you've been playing an absolute ton of Minecraft.

00:23:07   And so I'm keen to understand what triggered this.

00:23:13   I don't know.

00:23:14   Okay, that's a perfectly fine reason.

00:23:17   Saying "I just wanted to do it" is like, great!

00:23:20   Okay.

00:23:21   It's one of these- it's like, um, it's been a weird series of escalations combined with just a bunch of timing stuff, but...

00:23:33   [sigh]

00:23:35   Okay, so if I'm trying to reconstruct it- so there's the background thing which is going on here.

00:23:42   When I switched my business to be much more direct support, and I gave up doing embedded sponsorships in the videos,

00:23:49   One of the things that had been on my list for a really long time is I wanted to have

00:23:52   a second place that people could sign up to support the channel because sometimes for

00:23:58   whatever reason, like people don't want to use Patreon, they want like a second

00:24:01   option was a frequent request.

00:24:03   And I've been kind of looking at stuff for a while and eventually with the timing of

00:24:09   it, it's like YouTube has just been rolling out their members program.

00:24:13   And I got an invitation to be one of the early trial people for this.

00:24:18   And I thought, "Okay, let me give this a shot."

00:24:20   And so I've been trialing that out for, I don't know, maybe six months or so?

00:24:24   It seems like from the outside, basically, they took Patreon and Twitch and mushed them together.

00:24:31   Yeah.

00:24:32   I mean, I don't know very much about Twitch, so that's hard for me to comment on, but I think it is very fair to say that this is YouTube's answer to Patreon in a large number of ways.

00:24:43   Anyway, so I wanted to just have an answer when people email me and they're like,

00:24:47   hey, I want a different option.

00:24:48   So I've been trying it out and.

00:24:50   This actually just goes right into the, the like flow chart that we were talking

00:24:57   about before was like, as you keep adding things, each individual thing makes

00:25:02   everything much more complicated.

00:25:04   There's like a nonlinear amount of complication that occurs.

00:25:07   And so I've been working a lot on trying to make sure that people who sign up to

00:25:14   become members or patrons that for the primary two levels that people use,

00:25:20   everything is as the same as it can be.

00:25:22   I don't think that the content experience should be different.

00:25:25   Yeah.

00:25:25   And that ends up being a lot more work and a lot more difficult than you expect.

00:25:28   You've got to double the work now.

00:25:29   Yeah.

00:25:30   So there's, there is double the work.

00:25:32   Like, so that, that is the boring business background all to get to the sentence of,

00:25:37   so what I was trying to figure out how to do and completely failed in doing was how

00:25:44   can I stream the director's commentaries to both groups of people?

00:25:50   And normally the way that I've done it is since the director's commentaries

00:25:55   are for the supporters of the channel, like it's been a private thing.

00:25:58   Then I was thinking, okay, but how can I stream this to both groups?

00:26:02   And it's like, Oh God, this is a technical challenge.

00:26:05   And also a Gray's internet is not fast enough and not reliable enough challenge as well.

00:26:12   And I basically gave up with, what was it? I guess it was the metric paper video. I gave

00:26:17   up even attempting to do that and just did the director's commentary live on the channel

00:26:24   instead of having it behind a paywall because I couldn't figure out how to do the thing.

00:26:30   And I was like, well, I don't want to favour one group over the other. So, uh, everybody

00:26:34   can watch when it's live, I guess now.

00:26:36   Yeah, but then you can do, which I think you have been doing, which I think is, I think

00:26:39   a really fair way to do it is then the replay is only available for members or patrons, right?

00:26:46   B: Yeah, yeah, that's what I've done for now. This is also one of these things where, simply

00:26:52   because of the language issue as well, I've never really had a name for the group of people who

00:26:57   support the channel, but now that there's two system, it's like I need a way to refer to both

00:27:01   of them, and so I've come up with the Bonnie B Brigade as like an outgrowth of the Bonnie B that

00:27:07   that I've used on the channel for a long time.

00:27:09   But again, it's, it's one of these things of, I've always avoided

00:27:14   any kind of collective name.

00:27:16   That's fine until you have two systems and now you need one name.

00:27:21   First you can just adopt what that system calls their customers, right?

00:27:26   So like your patrons of Patreon.

00:27:28   Yeah.

00:27:29   Like I used to just say crowdfunders or patrons or whatever.

00:27:32   And, and I've used crowdfunders a little bit in the past year, but

00:27:36   I just really hate it as a word.

00:27:37   I think it's an ugly word.

00:27:38   That word doesn't mean any more, I think, what it used to mean.

00:27:42   Now like crowdfunding is Kickstarter.

00:27:44   Yes, exactly.

00:27:45   There's like a legacy term way that I'm using it, which is slipping.

00:27:49   Like you don't you don't want to get stuck on the old term for forever.

00:27:52   So I don't know.

00:27:53   It's just it's been it's been this weird time where I've been trying to solve a bunch of

00:27:57   these weird background technical issues.

00:28:01   Like the you know, the direct support is totally what the channel relies on and just trying

00:28:06   to make this work by what I thought was, "Oh, I'll just flip a switch and give it a try

00:28:12   and see how it works."

00:28:13   I didn't realize, "Oh, this is actually going to introduce a much larger number of

00:28:17   problems than I thought at first."

00:28:20   But so anyway, I gave up trying to solve one problem.

00:28:22   I just did the director's commentary live.

00:28:25   Then I was trying to solve the problem again and accidentally streamed live on the channel

00:28:30   when I didn't mean to.

00:28:32   and basically just said, "Okay, f it, let's roll with this and I'll just do some Mario

00:28:38   Kart on the mainstream." And then that just opened the flood doors of, "Oh, I guess I

00:28:44   can just stream on the main channel and it's okay dot dot dot question mark?" Like, I'm

00:28:52   not 100% sure. It's very early in doing this, which is probably why it's a good time for

00:28:57   your intervention if you're going to try to direct me here. This is like a very inflectiony

00:29:02   point kind of thing. Yeah so anyway it's a combination of so I sort of opened this door

00:29:08   accidentally and then it's I mean this is like a whole other side thing but it's just

00:29:14   worked out that some of my videos are in a really frustrating stage of development like

00:29:20   I feel really stuck on two of them in these really annoying ways and so I've ended up

00:29:25   having a bunch of days work-wise that are just kind of frustrating after the morning

00:29:31   and I feel like I just haven't really accomplished much. And so that has totally pushed me to

00:29:39   just try to play around with streaming a bit more and figure out what's here and what works.

00:29:45   It originally started with, I can't remember how, but I think someone mentioned when I

00:29:49   did that Mario Kart stream about Myst, which is a game that I really love.

00:29:54   Yes, you have played Myst, yes.

00:29:55   And just haven't played in literally over 20 years.

00:29:59   It's very old.

00:30:00   And I just thought, oh, that might be just kind of fun to try out on the channel.

00:30:05   Like I referenced Myst several times in my vlogs because it had a really big aesthetic

00:30:09   impact on me.

00:30:10   And so yeah, I gave that a try and I don't know, it's, I was really happy to just experience

00:30:17   the game again.

00:30:18   Like it was an interesting experience.

00:30:20   And also, you know, I could use help getting through it because I wasn't going to remember

00:30:23   all the puzzles. It was much harder than I remembered it. I thought like, "Oh, blast

00:30:29   through this, no problem." It's like, "No, it's still quite a hard puzzle game even

00:30:33   after 20 years." When I was doing that, someone mentioned Minecraft, which I didn't

00:30:38   realize was still incredibly popular. I just kind of assumed that it had faded away a little

00:30:42   bit.

00:30:43   I mean, I don't know if it's still now, but there was a time in the last year where

00:30:48   it was, again, the most popular video game in the world.

00:30:51   Yeah, I mean, it has amazing staying power.

00:30:54   And yeah, so again, I just, I had some really frustrating days with trying to work on some videos.

00:31:01   And the Minecraft thing was just really nice.

00:31:03   Like, oh, I feel like I've done something in the day after a frustrating morning.

00:31:09   And it's also just genuinely quite fun to play.

00:31:13   So it's been this weird combination of one, like we've talked about streaming for years and years now.

00:31:20   And I think, to anyone who's been with us, it has always been clear that I'm the one

00:31:24   who has a much harder time with this, and I don't get it, and I feel like I've never

00:31:28   really figured it out.

00:31:31   And this is much more of me making a concerted effort to try to figure it out, because it's

00:31:37   just happened to work out that I have a couple of good games that I wanted to try anyway,

00:31:43   and a, like, bumpier period in the main script time.

00:31:49   So yeah, so it's really just been a bunch of messing around is the long answer to why

00:31:54   has this happened?

00:31:56   It's just been like one thing on top of another.

00:31:58   That's why it's happened.

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00:33:48   Poking in and peeking in,

00:33:50   as you've been doing this over the last few days.

00:33:52   I mean, I can say from business perspective,

00:33:54   this is a good idea.

00:33:56   Your numbers are incredible.

00:33:58   - I didn't realize you've been spying on me.

00:33:59   - I've been spying on you, yeah.

00:34:01   I mean, YouTube actively tells me when it's happening.

00:34:04   Like you can't get away from it,

00:34:06   which is really interesting.

00:34:08   Now it's good, this is good, right?

00:34:09   I think that, okay, 'cause here's the,

00:34:11   like when I first saw it, I was like,

00:34:13   why would you stream on YouTube?

00:34:14   Like Twitch is the place, right, for streaming.

00:34:17   It's just about a platform for it

00:34:18   because it's built around it, right?

00:34:20   Like that's what Twitch is.

00:34:22   YouTube's like trying to make fetch happen, you know?

00:34:25   Like that they are really trying with live streaming,

00:34:27   but people go to Twitch because it's kind of

00:34:30   the expectation now, is that that's where you live stream.

00:34:34   But you have this inbuilt audience there already subscribed.

00:34:39   YouTube wants to tell them, like every time you're streaming

00:34:44   you are the top video in my subscriptions list

00:34:47   no matter what's coming in.

00:34:48   They put you right up there and you're like live.

00:34:52   So like for you, I think it makes perfect sense

00:34:55   to stream on YouTube rather than,

00:34:57   'cause then, I mean, honestly, if you did on Twitch

00:34:59   you would then be having a third option, right?

00:35:03   - Right.

00:35:04   of like, now you have these subscribers and where do they go, there is something to be

00:35:09   said about the diversification of that, which is intriguing, but I feel like would add so

00:35:15   much on top that probably makes it more complicated.

00:35:21   And also just from watching, like, it seems like it is a really great way to encourage

00:35:27   people to subscribe.

00:35:29   Because when you're streaming live, if you are a person who watches live streams, you're

00:35:34   very used to the idea of this will encourage people to subscribe and then at least with

00:35:40   the YouTube stuff they get additional benefits they don't really get on Twitch, right?

00:35:44   Like Twitch is just kind of like I support this creator now I don't see ads and I get

00:35:48   some emotes but at least with the YouTube stuff I assume from what I could glean if

00:35:53   somebody supports you by like subbing while you're live they also get all of the benefits

00:35:59   that you would get as a patron/regular subscriber. So there is definitely something to be said

00:36:06   for someone like you using YouTube as your live streaming platform rather than trying

00:36:12   to start something new on Twitch. And I've also found it intriguing to watch some of

00:36:19   these streams because it's so different content-wise to the stuff that you normally

00:36:24   right because it's live which is not a thing that you really do and I was kind

00:36:32   of intrigued as to how that makes you feel to be creating live.

00:36:37   Yeah I mean when well you know when you pitched me on Cortex years ago I remember one of my

00:36:42   main points was like just so you understand this will never be live right

00:36:47   because you were doing other shows live.

00:36:50   Most of my other shows, especially my weekly shows, we stream them live.

00:36:55   People can listen in our members Discord, they can listen on the web.

00:36:59   It's just a thing that I've always done, so it's just a thing that I do.

00:37:03   I don't particularly feel like that there is a reason.

00:37:06   Like this is other shows that I do that I don't stream live.

00:37:09   It adds and it also makes some things more tricky at the same time.

00:37:12   For the shows that are like quite news focused and information heavy, it can be useful because

00:37:17   the live stream actually provides information, right?

00:37:21   But say for a show like ours, the one we're doing right now,

00:37:24   I don't think streaming live would help.

00:37:26   It would actually make the show harder to make.

00:37:28   - Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:37:30   Back in the day, you would have wanted it to be live,

00:37:34   and I think-- - 'Cause it was what I was used to.

00:37:35   - I was very firm on not live. - Please no, yeah.

00:37:39   - Yes. (laughs)

00:37:40   - And it's for the best for this show.

00:37:42   There has been one live appearance ever, right?

00:37:45   When you came to San Francisco,

00:37:47   we did a segment.

00:37:48   - Right.

00:37:49   - But, so I just find it very interesting

00:37:51   to watch you creating live.

00:37:54   - Yeah, I mean, there's so much

00:37:55   in what you've just already said is,

00:37:57   and this is where I really feel like

00:37:58   I'm trying to figure it out.

00:38:01   I am concerned about the notification issue.

00:38:06   I don't think it's a problem,

00:38:09   but I just don't know. - No.

00:38:10   - And it's just-- - It's not a problem.

00:38:11   - It's early days.

00:38:12   - It's not a problem.

00:38:13   - I mean, yes. - Well, okay.

00:38:15   It will maybe become a problem

00:38:16   if you streamed a lot and then people turn off notifications and they don't get notifications

00:38:21   for the videos anymore.

00:38:22   But that's not a thing that you can work out.

00:38:25   And as well, it's like, if you start relying on the notifications to tell people when you're

00:38:29   streaming live, you are then at the whim of YouTube again, as to when they may or may

00:38:33   not send that notification that you expect.

00:38:37   And also, how much sense this makes to do long term, I just don't know.

00:38:43   I suspect that a lot of this might just be a kind of novelty effect at the moment.

00:38:48   Like, it's novel for me, which is what makes it interesting,

00:38:51   and it can also just be novel for people to watch it.

00:38:54   Yeah, there's always a novelty to stuff like this.

00:38:56   Yeah, I think one of the other big things about having direct support

00:39:01   be the main thing that supports the channel,

00:39:04   that, you know, now that I've been doing this for a while,

00:39:08   is I've realized like I have to have a visible reminder that this is a thing that people

00:39:15   can do now that like the business and the people that I work with depend on this as

00:39:20   an income source.

00:39:22   Because what happens over time with any of these kinds of things is like, okay, if I

00:39:25   make a video that says, you know, please support me on Patreon or whatever, over time, the

00:39:32   number of people who are there decay just as like credit cards expire or people like

00:39:37   lose interest or whatever.

00:39:40   There's always a certain amount of churn and like it's a thing that I've- if the business

00:39:45   depends on this, I have to promote it in some way, but I am just- I'm deeply uncomfortable

00:39:53   with the direct ask.

00:39:56   I've done it two or three times in 10 years, which is not enough if the business actually

00:40:05   needs to depend on this as the primary source of income.

00:40:08   So one of the things that I've been doing with this is just to have a visible reminder

00:40:14   to people that like, "Oh, you can support the channel."

00:40:17   And if you do, there are perks.

00:40:20   And it is one of the things that's quite interesting about YouTube members to me is

00:40:26   it does make it very visually and immediately obvious to people, "Hey, there's more content

00:40:33   here."

00:40:34   Like, I always find it quite interesting with the creators that I support on Patreon that

00:40:39   I almost never consume their additional content that exists there.

00:40:45   It's a pain.

00:40:46   It's a pain.

00:40:47   It's very hard to go back and to find it

00:40:50   I have a couple of people that I support on patreon and one of the things that they'll do is you get the video

00:40:56   early, right

00:40:58   mm-hmm, so

00:41:00   They send me an email and then I have to open the email and then I want to save the video to my watch later

00:41:06   Queue which means I didn't have to sign in to YouTube again

00:41:10   Even though I'm already signed in in another tab right and then open the video and then press the button. It's a pain

00:41:16   It doesn't just show up where I want it to be.

00:41:20   So for like, for more text people subscribe

00:41:22   and it's in their feed.

00:41:24   It's like if every time we were like,

00:41:26   we sent people an email every month,

00:41:28   which had an MP3 attached to it,

00:41:31   which had the additional content.

00:41:33   And it's like, you can go listen to this now, right?

00:41:36   Like it's like, it doesn't,

00:41:37   it's not meeting people where they are.

00:41:41   And I think that's the interesting part of

00:41:44   you leaning into what YouTube's offering,

00:41:47   as well as what Patreon's offering,

00:41:49   because it really is leaning into where your customers

00:41:54   are already, which is YouTube.

00:41:58   - Yeah, so I mean, part of the experience that I had,

00:42:00   which also made me consider this,

00:42:02   is I signed up for a couple people's memberships

00:42:04   on YouTube myself, and found,

00:42:08   oh, I'm actually watching the additional stuff

00:42:11   that they create.

00:42:13   I mean, it may be literally true a thousand percent more because I would basically never

00:42:17   watch it on Patreon.

00:42:19   And I've caught myself thinking, oh, there's some channels like I wish they would put their

00:42:23   stuff on YouTube.

00:42:24   So I don't know, it's interesting and the, you know, the program is still in beta, so

00:42:29   I'm a little bit limited about what I can say about it.

00:42:32   But what I can say is it presents this real split where, you know, when someone is supporting

00:42:39   the channel, it works much better for me if they do that on Patreon.

00:42:47   Like all things being equal, I would much prefer someone to sign up on Patreon by a

00:42:54   big margin.

00:42:56   But I know as a user, it's way more convenient if it's right there on YouTube.

00:43:04   So it's an interesting split and I think well if I was a supporter of me I would prefer

00:43:13   to sign up on YouTube and so that's one of the reasons why I'm just kind of giving it

00:43:18   a try and seeing how things go.

00:43:22   You know it's funny because like obviously I had the 10-year thing that we talked about

00:43:26   last time or the time before yeah and so obviously I've been thinking a lot about the next 10

00:43:31   years of the business. And, you know, I really want to lean on direct support quite a lot

00:43:37   through, you know, memberships and through merchandise, you know, weird stuff like the

00:43:42   stamp or whatever. But one of the things that sort of dawned on me is that I think I've

00:43:47   been doing my career in a little bit of a reverse way from the way a lot of content

00:43:54   creator production facilities go where my early stuff was also much less personal.

00:44:03   And over the last 10 years, I think there has been a trend towards more personal.

00:44:11   And I've also trended away from advertising and like both of those are very in the

00:44:19   opposite direction of the way most things go. That as a channel gets bigger, often one

00:44:25   of the things that people want to do is they want to try to more formalize, like, what's

00:44:30   the system? How does this work? How do we make this more reproducible? And like, that's

00:44:33   how you make a bigger business. But I've realized I'm very happy to lean into the channel actually

00:44:41   becoming just more personal over time, which is why like, oh, the vlogs have gone up. And

00:44:48   also why I feel comfortable experimenting with the live streaming stuff because that

00:44:53   then feels incredibly personal on the spectrum. It's like, "Oh, I'm here right now, you're

00:45:00   listening to me talk, and I'm just kind of playing a video game, and so there's something

00:45:07   incredibly unserious and hangouty about it."

00:45:12   I'm pleased you said that because I wanted to say this.

00:45:16   You probably won't like it but I'm going to say it anyway.

00:45:20   In watching you play the game, I see more of who I know because there is more silliness

00:45:34   because you're playing a video game and so it's funny and you're doing silly things

00:45:37   And I know that side of you more, and it's not the side of you that comes out in your videos, especially, like most of the time.

00:45:45   Most of the times, you are presenting something and it's serious, right?

00:45:49   And that is what people see from you.

00:45:52   But in the live streaming stuff, because it's happening live, your natural reaction to things is coming out more.

00:46:01   Right? Like I was watching you build a train track and I think one moment you

00:46:07   press the button and the train car flew away and you know you're just like

00:46:11   giggling up a storm.

00:46:13   Trains are fun.

00:46:14   Yeah and it's like there's a spectrum I think that people would see you on right?

00:46:18   So people that watch the YouTube videos see one side of you, people who listen to

00:46:23   the podcasts get a little bit more of that right? Like a little bit more of you

00:46:27   as the full person but content where it's live just naturally you will give

00:46:34   more of you like the whole you because it's not written it's not planned in

00:46:40   advance it's not being presented you're just playing the game and being yourself

00:46:45   so all this is to say if the goal is to give more of your personal side because

00:46:53   that is the way that the business continues with a direct support model.

00:46:57   Things like live streaming I think are a very good thing to continue and to add

00:47:02   in because it does open you up a little bit more as a person and as a creator

00:47:09   because people get to see more of who you are and I think that that is why, you

00:47:15   know, like I'm watching and I've seen lots of people were subscribing and that's kind of

00:47:19   the way that I see the popular Twitch creators that I watch.

00:47:23   The more you watch, the more you're like "oh subscribe because I enjoy, I'm having

00:47:28   fun here over a period of time."

00:47:31   So I think if that is your goal, I think that this helps continue to further that.

00:47:38   Yeah, I would say less as like, it's the goal, but more like it's okay, right?

00:47:45   Like it's okay to have the more personal stuff.

00:47:48   I mean, this, this again is where I was really worried about having two vlogs in a row and like,

00:47:54   oh, it turned out fine.

00:47:55   And I think this is, this is a side effect of audience expectations.

00:48:00   Again, people know what the deal is.

00:48:01   You know, again, I'm slightly worried because the YouTube streams are subscriber net negative.

00:48:08   if I look in the back end, but they're not very net negative.

00:48:12   - What does that mean?

00:48:14   - So I mean like if I do a stream,

00:48:16   I lose subscribers on that stream.

00:48:19   - Oh, you mean overall subscribers.

00:48:20   So this is where, okay, this is where naming is difficult

00:48:24   because subscribers on Twitch means

00:48:26   the people that pay you money.

00:48:28   - I know, I know.

00:48:29   This is one of the like sidebar, I'm always harping on this.

00:48:35   I think YouTube should just ditch the whole concept

00:48:37   of subscribers, but they can't because they built their dumb awards around it.

00:48:41   But I've thought forever, like they need to get rid of this.

00:48:44   Well, it's all changing now.

00:48:45   Like, so we're recording this just as Apple's launched their Apple podcast

00:48:48   subscriptions thing, which obviously there is a parallel to that conversation,

00:48:52   but it's too early for me to even have formed a full opinion on this program.

00:48:58   But Apple and Apple podcasts now has follow and subscribe.

00:49:02   And follow.

00:49:04   Oh, that's way better.

00:49:05   Follow is what people do for our show right now, right?

00:49:09   Like the vast majority of our listeners,

00:49:11   they are now like, if they use Apple Podcasts,

00:49:14   following us, they've just,

00:49:15   and what we would have always called,

00:49:17   subscribe to the show, right?

00:49:19   - Right, yes.

00:49:20   - But then you have the membership and the paid stuff,

00:49:23   and that is now a subscription.

00:49:25   I mean, I'm just old school, so I'm used to it,

00:49:27   but I wouldn't mind if this naming actually just changed

00:49:30   and just standardized,

00:49:31   'cause now I'm used to, with Twitch,

00:49:33   subscriptions is where the money occurs. That's where there's an exchange of whatever. I now want

00:49:39   just please standardize this language across the platforms.

00:49:44   Right, yeah. No, I didn't know Apple changed the language and I'm 100%

00:49:49   behind that. I think subscribe has, it's an anachronistic word, it doesn't make sense,

00:49:53   it's confusing. It's confusing even between right now and this moment, two professionals talking

00:49:58   about what's going on. I was like, "Oh, I'm net negative on subscribers." And you go, "Wow, that

00:50:02   Like, how are you losing money?

00:50:04   (laughing)

00:50:05   - Right, and I'm like,

00:50:06   "Oh, I don't think it's a big deal at all."

00:50:08   Whereas it's like,

00:50:09   "Oh, if my direct supporters were abandoning me en masse

00:50:12   when I streamed, it's like, I would stop streaming real fast."

00:50:16   Like, you know, so it's-

00:50:18   - That doesn't make any sense.

00:50:19   (laughing)

00:50:21   They're all off refunds.

00:50:22   - Yeah, it's hard to talk about,

00:50:23   but I guess what I was trying to say there is,

00:50:26   I'm worried about the notifications thing.

00:50:28   I know that the people who follow me on YouTube

00:50:31   with the subscription button, that number goes negative when I stream, but not by a lot.

00:50:37   And I also easily expect that's hugely disproportionate to people who like just signed up on the last main video.

00:50:45   Like, I would bet 80% of those unsubscribes are people who just subscribed when they found Metric Paper.

00:50:51   And then they're like, "Oh, this is a nostalgia streaming channel? I didn't know that, like unsubscribe."

00:50:57   Or it is the far less engaged person who is now annoyed that this is happening, but they

00:51:04   were not going to particularly watch every video or ever sign up.

00:51:10   Yeah, yeah.

00:51:11   Anyway.

00:51:12   And this is also where one of the things related to the whole concept of YouTube subscriptions

00:51:17   is I'm trying to just psychologically let go of, you know, it's a bit like the serenity

00:51:24   prayer and you know, hey, you know what you have to say the serenity prayer about?

00:51:27   When does YouTube notify people about your videos?

00:51:29   And it's like, well, you know, don't spend a lot of time and energy on the things you

00:51:34   can't control and you don't know about.

00:51:36   So it's like, I don't have any idea when YouTube notifies people about the main videos or the

00:51:42   streams.

00:51:43   It's incredibly difficult to even try to get any kind of idea of when that happens.

00:51:47   So it's like, you know what, whatever, I'm going to just give up and let YouTube sort

00:51:53   it out and I don't know, maybe YouTube will figure out at some point which people do or

00:51:58   don't want game streams and which people want the main videos.

00:52:02   But that's also where I'm not as confident as that, like, oh, I'm not going to worry

00:52:06   thing, you know, as that sounds like, well, you know, we'll see how this pans out in the

00:52:11   future.

00:52:12   But yeah, I guess the original idea here about like just being more personal is also trying

00:52:16   to eliminate the complexities is it makes more sense to just consolidate everything

00:52:24   onto the main YouTube channel.

00:52:27   So it's like I used to have that's the secondary channel for streaming games, but that doesn't

00:52:32   make sense anymore once there's the members program like this is where oh that just kind

00:52:37   of has to go because I don't want three places where people try to sign up and they don't

00:52:43   work with each other and it's confusing.

00:52:45   And you have enough control where it doesn't mess up the video list and stuff like that.

00:52:51   Yes, yeah.

00:52:52   You don't get all these game videos intermixed.

00:52:55   Like you're able to kind of like split them out.

00:52:58   Yeah, I think it's clear that YouTube is interested in this as an important future part of their

00:53:04   platform and I don't know if they're going to continue doing this but it is a big deal

00:53:09   to me that, yeah, this kind of stuff doesn't show up as main video stuff. It's very clearly

00:53:16   separated from the main videos. This allows me to have it be much more obvious like, "Hey

00:53:23   guys, this is bonus, not serious stuff. This isn't what the channel is. It's just like

00:53:30   these extra things." So it does allow me to consolidate this stuff. But I think thinking

00:53:35   about the channel long term, it's helped me also realize it makes sense and it's fine

00:53:41   to consolidate all of these things. My audience, I think after 10 years, gets it that there's

00:53:46   going to be random things all the time on the channel. It's not advice that I would

00:53:50   generally give. This is what I mean by like, it's the reverse of how I see most YouTube

00:53:56   channels go that I think many people as their channels grow, it makes way more sense to

00:54:04   to do spin-off and secondary channels.

00:54:07   And I think for almost any creator, if they're asking me,

00:54:12   oh, they want to do a very different kind of thing,

00:54:13   it's like, you should have a separate channel,

00:54:17   but that's also dependent on the whole business model

00:54:19   of like embedded sponsorships are very important

00:54:22   for most content creators.

00:54:24   So it's just a very different position

00:54:26   that I find myself in.

00:54:27   - I do think that we're on a bit of an inflection point

00:54:30   with this type of stuff though.

00:54:32   - What do you mean?

00:54:33   So I think that the pandemic has forced a lot of creators to consider their revenue

00:54:38   streams differently.

00:54:39   And so there is a lot more trending towards asking people to, you know, if you like

00:54:44   the content, support the content and we'll try and give you something extra for that.

00:54:50   Right.

00:54:50   And so I expect there to be a lot more of people doing the type of thing that you are

00:54:56   attempting to do right now of leaning into the main source providing some kind

00:55:03   of incentive to build a larger support base and rely less on advertising.

00:55:10   I'm not confident about that as a general statement but I don't know maybe.

00:55:14   I think that 2020 has highlighted the fragility of advertising based support

00:55:22   models. So I can imagine a lot more people thinking okay there is a market

00:55:30   for people to want to support whether it's once or on an ongoing basis and as

00:55:37   long as creators continue to find a good balance, right, like it's not gonna work

00:55:43   for people in my opinion who are like alright I'm just gonna say my content is

00:55:48   all behind a paywall and that's not the way to do it. But if you can provide a value proposition

00:55:54   then they will give you their money. Like I know this because it's working for us, I know this is

00:55:59   me as a consumer of content, like I want to give money to people that I like and to get something

00:56:07   out of it. So I mean this is more of just like I agree with what you're saying about you're doing

00:56:13   things kind of in reverse to the typical creator because typically a creator begins they have a

00:56:17   small audience, they ask that audience for help, it helps them grow, they get numbers,

00:56:21   they get advertising and they grow from there and you have kind of gone in the reverse a

00:56:26   little bit. I mean there is a thing of like when you started there wasn't really a lot

00:56:29   of options for direct support though so you know it's that it is a slight inaccuracy

00:56:35   in that thinking right like Patreon didn't exist you know none of these things existed

00:56:40   but the point that I'm making is I do think that larger creators now are considering

00:56:47   direct support more than they would have say in 2019.

00:56:52   - Yeah, I think that's totally fair.

00:56:54   - But they're not doing what you're doing,

00:56:55   which is then saying, hey, I'm not doing ads anymore.

00:56:58   - Right. - On the YouTube channel.

00:57:00   Well, like most creators, like say me as well,

00:57:03   like with the membership stuff that we're doing,

00:57:05   we still do ads, but we also have direct support as well.

00:57:10   But you've gone an extra step in saying,

00:57:13   "Hey, I'm taking this leap now, please help."

00:57:17   Right, like that's the difference.

00:57:19   It's like it was a bigger step that you took,

00:57:21   which does put you on the, on the outs.

00:57:23   But anyway, we have gone way into reservation now.

00:57:26   I want to bring us right back into live streaming.

00:57:28   One of the things that I found, it was funny to me,

00:57:33   is hearing you do the live streaming thing,

00:57:36   which is the convention of live streaming.

00:57:38   When someone subscribes or becomes a member,

00:57:42   whatever the word is, you say like, "Thanks, Jane."

00:57:47   You know?

00:57:48   Like, that's what you need to do.

00:57:49   And when I turned it on, like, I turned on the screen,

00:57:51   I was like, "Is he gonna do that?"

00:57:52   'Cause I just wasn't sure, right?

00:57:54   'Cause this is new for you.

00:57:55   I remember when I first ever started streaming,

00:57:57   I didn't know you needed to do those things.

00:58:00   And people were like, "Why are you not interacting with us?"

00:58:03   And I was like, "I didn't know I had to."

00:58:05   Right, like, it's very strange when you start,

00:58:08   but you were doing it, you know?

00:58:10   you're like, "Thanks Billy Bob for joining," or whatever the words are.

00:58:14   Yeah, all my words are still very complicated.

00:58:16   They're all new.

00:58:17   It takes a while, like it really takes a while, because again, like Twitch is much more complicated

00:58:22   too, because there are like follows, subs, bits, gifted subs, like it's a much broader...

00:58:29   Oh great, sign me up for Twitch, this sounds like what I need.

00:58:33   I mean, I will say as a creator and as a consumer, I think Twitch is better at this stuff.

00:58:37   But again, it's not the right option for you.

00:58:39   The right option for you is to stream on YouTube

00:58:41   because it just makes so much sense.

00:58:44   There is like this whole vernacular that you need to use.

00:58:47   And it was like, as I could feel you were trying to like,

00:58:50   you're trying to find it, right?

00:58:52   Like, cause it is, it's very, again,

00:58:54   it's super different to all of the other types of content

00:58:57   that you make in that way.

00:58:59   - Yeah, I'm totally unexperienced with this.

00:59:01   And also I have the additional problem,

00:59:04   which is because there are two ways

00:59:06   that people can sign up.

00:59:07   I have two chat rooms that I'm managing,

00:59:10   which is very like, oh God, where am I looking?

00:59:13   It's very, it's, it is surprisingly hard.

00:59:17   - So Adina was like, oh, great streaming.

00:59:19   And then she was watching, I don't understand the chat.

00:59:21   And I was like, okay, so he's kind of got these two,

00:59:23   he's got the Discord and the YouTube chat.

00:59:26   So, but why are they both there?

00:59:27   I said, yeah, 'cause they just have to be.

00:59:29   Right, like so.

00:59:30   Now I, so this is one of the things

00:59:32   that I wanna give you feedback on.

00:59:34   What tool are you using? What software are you using?

00:59:36   Streamlabs OBS, that's what I'm using.

00:59:39   Because I think one of the ways that you can benefit from this is some visual design to the stream.

00:59:45   What do you mean? My streams are beautiful.

00:59:48   They're gorgeous, like really amazing.

00:59:50   There are, you know, like there are visual tricks that you can play for putting things in boxes and stuff like that.

00:59:57   And, you know, you will see this with other people that stream, you know, you kind of have a layout.

01:00:03   I don't remember the exact name of it now, but you can kind of set up a layout and I

01:00:06   just think your layout could do with some refinement to make things a bit clearer.

01:00:11   I have refined it quite a lot actually.

01:00:14   It's great.

01:00:15   Yeah.

01:00:16   I mean, in all seriousness, this is just the problem of like the complication versus just

01:00:21   getting it done issue.

01:00:24   And I don't know, like Streamlabs, you recommended it to me and I do quite like it, but I constantly

01:00:32   run into just tons of technical problems with all of the streaming software. Technical problems that

01:00:37   are completely baffling, you know, the kind of thing where you're following through someone's

01:00:40   tutorial and then step six just doesn't work or like, "Oh, that button doesn't exist."

01:00:46   All right, okay. So now we need to actually get into the real meat of this.

01:00:49   Okay.

01:00:51   If you're going to do this, you need a PC. I'm sorry, you don't want to hear it,

01:00:55   but this is it because so many of the problems that you're having

01:01:01   would be solved by using a PC.

01:01:03   'Cause when you say the button isn't there,

01:01:05   well, you know why the button isn't there?

01:01:06   'Cause it's in the Windows version.

01:01:08   It's not in the Mac version.

01:01:09   And that's so many of the technical issues

01:01:11   that you find yourself in,

01:01:13   because the Mac is not good at this.

01:01:16   - Right, no, I understand the Mac's not good at this,

01:01:18   but I'm not getting a whole other computer for that.

01:01:21   Like this is, you talk about now,

01:01:24   like introducing more complexity.

01:01:26   Every operating system is literally a universe

01:01:30   unto itself.

01:01:31   No, I know.

01:01:32   And you're like, "Oh, hey, you can't get subscriber names to pop up nice on the screen?

01:01:36   Well don't worry, just pop over into this parallel universe where all the physics are

01:01:40   different and you can solve this problem."

01:01:42   It's like, guess what?

01:01:43   I don't need to solve the problem that badly.

01:01:46   Like it's fine.

01:01:48   What I'm saying to you is for what you're doing right now, right, right now, it's fine.

01:01:55   But if this is a thing that you will want to continue, it is my strong recommendation

01:02:04   that you make your life easier for yourself, ultimately, in having a small form factor

01:02:10   PC.

01:02:11   Yeah, but you're presuming that it will make my life easier.

01:02:14   I know I know.

01:02:15   I don't think that it will.

01:02:17   I really don't think that it will.

01:02:18   I have been on this journey.

01:02:20   I know how much easier it can be.

01:02:23   My PC is just set now.

01:02:27   I do two things on it.

01:02:29   Nothing ever changes.

01:02:30   It works great.

01:02:32   Of course I get the occasional issue which is solved by unplugging and replugging a USB

01:02:36   device but that is like the majority of the issues that I have is just that, if that.

01:02:42   It's like once you set it up and you get it fixed in the way that you want, as long as

01:02:47   you don't do anything else to the PC, which I don't because I only use it for this, it's

01:02:51   fine.

01:02:52   But look, Myke, what are you trying to sell me here?

01:02:54   All I have right now is, oh cool, there's Minecraft on the right and there's Discord

01:02:59   chat on the left.

01:03:01   Great.

01:03:02   Like, I'm good.

01:03:03   Like, that's fine.

01:03:04   It works fine.

01:03:05   All I'm saying is I agree with you for right now.

01:03:09   But again, if this is something that like it becomes a thing in your portfolio that

01:03:16   do frequently. My recommendation is you make your life easier and the stream more professional

01:03:23   looking by enhancing some things. So you get some scenes made for yourself, right? So like

01:03:29   you end up with a more visual design to the stream where things are broken up and laid

01:03:33   out a bit better. And then you also have a PC that can render Minecraft draw distances

01:03:40   an awesome stream at the same time for you.

01:03:44   Putting this out there to you is just like just-

01:03:47   No, but like, no, but this is like, this, I don't know, to be like, this is, this is like

01:03:50   antithetical to what I'm actually doing here.

01:03:52   Like, number one, I'm not actually going to be a daily streamer.

01:03:57   Yeah, of course you're not.

01:03:58   Yeah, I've been doing it a bunch, you know, because this has been a confluence of events

01:04:03   that have made it happen more frequently.

01:04:05   Like, I think I would like to be able to do this somewhat frequently going forward into

01:04:09   the future I don't really know what that means but I wouldn't expect that it is as frequent

01:04:13   as it has been.

01:04:14   I have a question for you.

01:04:16   Why do you have a writing computer?

01:04:19   No Myke, now you're just trying to start a fight here.

01:04:23   Well I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm just asking, just a question that I have for

01:04:28   you is why do you have a writing computer?

01:04:32   The purpose of the writing computer is to try to physically separate the work.

01:04:37   I know where you're going with this.

01:04:38   Where am I? I don't know where I'm not going anywhere. I just, I just couldn't remember.

01:04:42   Look, the writing computer is very simple. It's for writing. It's for podcasting. It's also a

01:04:51   server. It's also a server for all of my video files. And it's a Hazel machine that automatically

01:04:59   categorizes and sorts all of the video footage that I shoot. It's my fastest computer. So it's

01:05:04   also my rendering computer when I'm short on time, and it's also my video game streaming

01:05:09   computer now. So that's what the writing computer does.

01:05:13   - Right. - Okay.

01:05:16   - I mean, just to finish the point, I do... I know what you're saying about getting a

01:05:26   PC and trying to make things more professional. I do get it, even though I'm giving you a

01:05:30   hard time about that. I understand your point, but part of this for me is like, but I am not a

01:05:37   professional streamer. No, I'm not recommending like you're doing this anytime soon. Yeah, if it

01:05:45   doesn't feel like I'm actually just playing this game and I'm enjoying this, I'm not gonna do it.

01:05:51   Like it doesn't really make sense for me to do as a business. Like it makes sense for me to do

01:05:58   as a fun bonus thing for people who support the channel and it also makes sense if it's a fun

01:06:05   thing for me to do in the afternoon when I wouldn't be doing anything else anyway like I'd just be

01:06:11   sitting around so this is why it all makes sense and like you have to be careful about how much you

01:06:17   professionalize some things and I feel cautious about this. Nobody understands this more than me

01:06:24   Because this is exactly where I am, right?

01:06:27   Like, I stream every week, but it's my fun thing that I do.

01:06:30   I look forward to it, and I don't want to think of it

01:06:34   as part of my job so much,

01:06:36   because it will take some of the fun away.

01:06:38   Like, it's my hobby, but as a hobby,

01:06:41   I get to share it with other people,

01:06:43   and it's just something that I really enjoy.

01:06:45   But it has become way less frustrating for me

01:06:50   once I had the equipment in place

01:06:53   to properly manage what I was trying to do.

01:06:57   Because what I found was,

01:06:59   when I was trying to stream everything from my laptop,

01:07:02   it worked most of the time,

01:07:03   because the laptop couldn't handle it,

01:07:05   and it was like random, where sometimes,

01:07:08   just like I would be at like seven frames per second, right?

01:07:11   And just like, as I said before, I think,

01:07:13   it's like people were joking

01:07:15   and calling it like a PowerPoint presentation.

01:07:17   (laughing)

01:07:18   That made it less fun.

01:07:20   - Yeah.

01:07:21   - And when it made it less fun,

01:07:22   made it feel like work. So when I ended up investing, I built a new PC, I love my new

01:07:28   PC. I have a parts list that I'll put in the show notes if people want to check it out.

01:07:33   Now it's even more fun again because everything just runs so smoothly. I just turn everything

01:07:38   on and I'm ready to go. It's just a joy. So all I'm saying is I'm not recommending this

01:07:43   for now because you don't know if this is even something you're going to be doing in

01:07:46   six weeks time, right? My suggestion is if you decide this is something that you want

01:07:52   want to do for fun, but also as a community building exercise, my recommendation to you

01:08:00   is to really strongly consider some things that will make the experience smoother.

01:08:08   Recommendation noted, Myke.

01:08:09   Yeah.

01:08:10   And again, I just want to get this in your head, right?

01:08:14   And just keep doing what you're doing for now, right?

01:08:16   It's only come up because you mentioned about the two chats, right?

01:08:20   like that's what led me down this whole little road.

01:08:23   - Right, but your PC isn't going to solve the problem

01:08:25   that there's two separate systems.

01:08:27   - No, there were two parts of this, right?

01:08:29   Like the first part was having somebody create

01:08:32   a more visual scene, this guy called scenes for you,

01:08:36   which could help highlight things.

01:08:38   You could, you know, there could be some labeling

01:08:40   as to like why these things are both here,

01:08:42   but then the other part of it was

01:08:44   while I'm talking about this,

01:08:46   let me also mention to you how much

01:08:48   your life would be made easier if you had a Windows PC to do this with.

01:08:53   - Right, so that's what this intervention was.

01:08:56   - Yeah, this was like the other thing that I wanted to mention.

01:08:59   - Okay.

01:09:00   - In watching your streams and knowing how much easier and smoother and better looking

01:09:05   they would be if you had hardware that could actually handle it.

01:09:09   - Yeah, I do think my bottleneck is actually the internet connection.

01:09:13   It's not the hardware at this point.

01:09:14   - I think there's a bit of both.

01:09:15   I mean, because like stuff like your draw distance in Minecraft is not affected by your

01:09:19   internet.

01:09:20   Yes, that's true.

01:09:21   That is true.

01:09:22   I don't have the draw distance at maximum, but I do really think 80% of the problem is

01:09:27   the internet connection.

01:09:28   And also, I don't know anything about PCs and don't want to learn an entire other universe.

01:09:33   Yeah, yeah.

01:09:34   No, trust me, I feel you.

01:09:36   I've been there.

01:09:37   Yeah.

01:09:38   It's not as bad as it seems, though.

01:09:39   Yeah.

01:09:40   But it's the thing is you choose whether you want to give into it or not.

01:09:44   I'll just tell you my favorite little thing that's happened so far with the streaming,

01:09:48   it just made me laugh, is I try very hard on the streams not to curse because if it's

01:09:56   live there's no bleeping, right?

01:09:58   So sometimes I curse on this podcast and you bleep it and that always makes it funnier.

01:10:03   - I censor you.

01:10:04   - Yes, exactly.

01:10:05   - The reason I take curses out of the show is it's easier for people that don't want

01:10:08   it and it's also easier for people that are listening mixed company.

01:10:11   - Yeah, exactly.

01:10:13   don't know, it's mixed company, there's going to be a grandma with pearls that she will

01:10:18   clutch if you curse, and you don't want that to be the case. Also, I suspect with streams,

01:10:23   it's much more of a background activity, so everything about it feels like you probably

01:10:31   shouldn't curse, so I try not to curse. Although of course when you're playing video games,

01:10:36   surprising things happen. LINDSAY: Especially Minecraft. Minecraft is

01:10:39   dangerous game for no cursing.

01:10:41   It is, it is dangerous, you know, because it is...

01:10:44   [sigh]

01:10:46   It is the perfect example of, "Oh, you've spent two hours doing a thing, and then in two seconds,

01:10:51   one stupid thing happens, and you've just lost two hours of your life that you're never getting back."

01:10:56   In all of my years, any time I've ever streamed, I think I have been 100% successful about not cursing.

01:11:02   But on the very last stream, I did once, because I was just too surprised.

01:11:07   I turned around and was just very surprised and cursed out loud.

01:11:11   And what I loved is before I'd even finished the stream, YouTube was like,

01:11:16   "Oh, we've demonetized this video for language."

01:11:19   I was like, "Wow!"

01:11:21   [laughs]

01:11:21   Oh my God.

01:11:22   Yeah.

01:11:23   I, yeah, I saw the little like ineligible limited monetization language.

01:11:29   Unbelievable.

01:11:29   I was like, "Boy, look at this.

01:11:31   These bots, they sure know how to look.

01:11:34   Like they are watching you with sharp eyes."

01:11:37   I thought that was amazing.

01:11:39   That's incredible.

01:11:40   And horrifying.

01:11:41   Yeah, so anyway, YouTube.

01:11:43   They're always watching.

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01:12:58   Something I wanted to do recently was to create a kind of landing page for all the different

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01:13:06   and I haven't really done much with it, so I just spent some time one day, I put in a

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01:13:15   It was so easy, they had a template that was perfect for it, it was really easy to do,

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01:13:51   [BEEP]

01:13:52   Great, let's do some #AskCortex questions.

01:13:55   So Cortex's have questions, we have answers.

01:13:57   Maybe.

01:13:58   I was like, do we have answers?

01:14:00   I don't know the answer to that yet.

01:14:01   We have answers.

01:14:03   Right.

01:14:04   They might not always be the answers people want or expect, but we do have them.

01:14:10   Jan asks, "What kind of art do you have or want in your offices?

01:14:15   Where do you choose form over function, maybe in regards to furniture?"

01:14:20   I mean, I won't be surprised.

01:14:21   I generally prefer function over form, particularly in a work environment.

01:14:27   I mean, I do think it is nice to have some kind of matching, you know, so like I have

01:14:34   the two desks in my office, one for the regular computer, one for the writing computer.

01:14:39   They're the same.

01:14:41   And when I got a storage unit, it was important to try to like match the wood so that it does

01:14:44   look nice in the room.

01:14:46   But yeah, in general, I care a lot more about office stuff being functional.

01:14:51   And to that end, I don't have any art in my office.

01:14:56   I painted the walls blue, which I love, but I don't have any, like, paintings on the walls.

01:15:01   You know, none of that is something that I would really want.

01:15:06   There's a window in my office, but it is permanently closed forever.

01:15:10   But I guess the thing that I would want as art, I guess, has always kind of stuck with me,

01:15:16   but there are companies that make these fake windows.

01:15:19   I don't know if you've ever seen this.

01:15:21   Like, I run across this on the internet every once in a while,

01:15:24   And it's one of these, like, how much money do you want to spend kind of questions.

01:15:28   But yeah, there are companies that will make these fake windows that try to create the appearance of sunlight coming through them.

01:15:35   Oh my god, these are so weird.

01:15:37   I'm looking at some now where they put, like, images.

01:15:40   Yeah, and so some of the better ones try to solve the parallax problem, because like, with artwork, obviously, it doesn't have any depth to it because it's just a flat image.

01:15:49   And so some of the better windows try to solve for the parallax problem by having just a little bit of layers that's offset in a way which exaggerates parallax, so it gives it a bit of depth as you're walking past it.

01:16:02   I'm looking at these ones now that are curved.

01:16:04   Yes, like that kind of stuff.

01:16:06   I hate this.

01:16:07   No, some of these are great.

01:16:08   Like, you know, for people who have underground prepper bunkers, like, you know, the real millionaire billionaire people who do this kind of stuff is like, "Oh, I have this underground nuclear bunker."

01:16:18   But also this window that always shows me what it looks like in Hong Kong now or whatever.

01:16:25   Like that's the kind of thing if money was no object and I could build my office from scratch,

01:16:31   I think I would, I wouldn't have art, but I would love to have like the best fake windows money can buy.

01:16:39   That's what I would put in my office.

01:16:40   For me, I like to try and display things that are achievements.

01:16:48   I have my prints from PodCon. Remember those?

01:16:52   - Yeah, yeah, of course.

01:16:53   - And those framed, I have some, like, those fracture prints

01:16:57   of like little moments.

01:16:59   I actually have a fracture of the aforementioned time

01:17:03   that we were on stage together in San Francisco.

01:17:05   I want to do more of it for the studio

01:17:08   because the studio is just big blank walls.

01:17:11   It's just like these large white walls.

01:17:14   But again, it's like, I haven't had the time

01:17:16   to really decorate this place.

01:17:17   I have a clock that I really like that has just been sitting in a box for 10 months.

01:17:23   I like the idea of having things in a workspace to make it feel

01:17:28   personalized to kind of take the edge off a little bit.

01:17:32   I mean honestly this is part of like the aesthetic desire for fun keyboards.

01:17:37   Yeah I think I imagine especially just being in a bigger space

01:17:41   you would have more desire to decorate something on the walls.

01:17:45   Especially because, I mean, it's not very soft feeling in this.

01:17:48   And it's just like, "White brick wall."

01:17:52   The coziest of decorations. "White brick wall."

01:17:57   John asks, "I know Myke edits and posts the podcast, but what is the, quote,

01:18:02   'final cut ownership' like on an episode? Does Gray just listen for mistakes and

01:18:06   note corrections to Myke, or do both of you listen and edit it equally?"

01:18:11   I like that. Oh Myke, I'll just send you my list of mistakes and I'll let you do it.

01:18:16   I think that's really funny.

01:18:17   I have had editing relationships like that.

01:18:20   I mean, I think it can make sense. It just strikes me as funny.

01:18:24   I mean, honestly, in some ways it's more logical than what we do,

01:18:28   which is literally pass a logic project backwards and forwards, which

01:18:32   is I can't believe we haven't had a problem that's occurred from that.

01:18:37   I'll give Logic a lot of credit for never really choking on that.

01:18:43   That's worked really well.

01:18:44   But I think this is also the case of we are both Logic editors.

01:18:48   It's no big deal for me to open up a Logic file and edit a podcast.

01:18:52   It's super easy.

01:18:54   It's way easier than working in Final Cut and is super fast.

01:18:59   I think there's two things going on here.

01:19:03   "Okay, well, when both of us know how to use the same editing program that reduces a lot of friction,

01:19:10   and when one of us is incredibly picky about a bunch of details, like, it also makes, like,

01:19:18   I would never send you a list of like, "Oh, Myke, here's the couple little things that I want you to change."

01:19:23   I tend to make a lot of very small edits on the final one, but honestly,

01:19:31   I think it's the two of us working on this that is part of why I think

01:19:36   Cortex sounds really good as a podcast is I always want to be clear, like

01:19:41   Myke is putting in 90% of the work.

01:19:44   I just view my edit as I always have picky stuff that I just want

01:19:51   to change or tweak a little bit.

01:19:52   I have a question for you.

01:19:54   Do you edit yourself more or me more?

01:19:57   It depends.

01:19:59   I mean, I think probably on average, I edit myself way more.

01:20:02   You know, I think this is just the human thing of,

01:20:05   you're always going to be more annoyed

01:20:08   by little things that you do wrong,

01:20:11   or you're more aware of when you've said things

01:20:14   in a weird way, like that was not what I intended,

01:20:17   but if I cut this, it sounds closer to what I meant to say.

01:20:22   - I edit you more than me.

01:20:25   - Oh, okay, that's totally shocking to me, why?

01:20:28   I'm gonna edit you more now.

01:20:30   Go for it. See if I can.

01:20:32   You're gonna edit me out.

01:20:34   I'll show you!

01:20:35   This is really funny, 'cause like, I've always kind of assumed,

01:20:38   "Oh, Myke is giving me this file.

01:20:41   He must be 100% happy with the way he sounds about everything,

01:20:47   because I'm not going to pass back the file to him until I've listened to it

01:20:52   and make sure that I'm happy with the way I sound."

01:20:55   I edit myself a lot, right? Like I'm not relying on you.

01:20:57   Like I'm not relying on you to do it for me.

01:20:59   The reason I edit you more is because I know how picky you are

01:21:03   for yourself, so I try and just pick up a lot of that.

01:21:08   - Thank you, I really appreciate that.

01:21:10   - Well, it's part of my job here is to edit the show.

01:21:12   And so like, as well, you have, I think,

01:21:15   more fixable verbal tics than I do, right?

01:21:20   Everybody has verbal tics.

01:21:24   I am just lucky that yours are more repairable more frequently than mine are.

01:21:29   I can't get rid of a lot of mine.

01:21:31   What are your unremovable verbal texts?

01:21:33   Oh, I'm not saying them on the show.

01:21:34   Okay.

01:21:35   Well, you can tell me later.

01:21:36   Right.

01:21:37   Because then everyone will hear them all the time and will lose their minds.

01:21:42   But you're quite controlled with yours, which makes it easy.

01:21:46   One of them is the exact opposite of a verbal take, which is you take a long time.

01:21:50   You pause.

01:21:50   Yes.

01:21:51   That, yeah, that is true.

01:21:53   Lots of pauses.

01:21:54   And your other thing is you just restate stuff a lot.

01:21:56   - Yes, well, this is also the magic of it's not live is, oh.

01:21:59   - It's amazing, yeah.

01:22:00   - I start this sentence and then, oh, it's a car crash.

01:22:03   And then you just wait.

01:22:04   - Start over.

01:22:05   - Start over, try that again and try to speak like a person

01:22:09   who could speak in full sentences.

01:22:12   Yeah, no, extemporaneous speech is not my strong point,

01:22:15   which is one of the reasons why it's like,

01:22:17   Myke, this podcast will never be live.

01:22:19   - Well, Gray, I'll tell you, it's nobody's strong point.

01:22:22   It really isn't.

01:22:23   - Extemporaneous speaking is incredibly difficult.

01:22:26   Most podcasts are not edited like us.

01:22:29   They're just not because it just takes too much work.

01:22:32   You wouldn't do it, right?

01:22:33   And it's like when I talk to people,

01:22:35   especially with the mentorship program that I've been doing,

01:22:38   when we talk about editing,

01:22:40   I tell them the different ways that I edit.

01:22:42   I tell them how I edit this show

01:22:43   and suggest nobody edit like this.

01:22:46   - Right. (laughs)

01:22:47   - It's not necessary to produce a good podcast.

01:22:50   We just do it because this is what we do.

01:22:53   - Yeah, yeah.

01:22:54   - But I don't recommend people do things like we do.

01:22:58   You know, like if I say the word your twice in a sentence,

01:23:02   right, so like your, 'cause I'm just restating it,

01:23:04   I'll cut one of those out.

01:23:06   Nobody notices that stuff, but I just don't want it there.

01:23:10   So really, the final cut ownership,

01:23:13   I mean, it is kind of mine,

01:23:15   because you give me the final, final cut,

01:23:18   but I don't really change a lot

01:23:20   after you give it back to me.

01:23:21   Because I was just thinking, I don't even know now.

01:23:24   I don't know- like, you do listen to it again after I've edited it, or not?

01:23:28   - No, I never listen to it again.

01:23:30   - Oh, okay.

01:23:31   - Yeah, see, there you go, you didn't- I can't. I don't have the time for that.

01:23:34   - Myke, we need to do three passes on this podcast!

01:23:37   - Well, I'll tell you what, then, Gary. - One, two, three, pull out of it!

01:23:39   - If you want that, you gotta get it to me a day earlier, right? Like, that's the thing.

01:23:43   I can't listen to the show if you're giving me the show on the day the show's being posted.

01:23:47   - Myke, I don't understand. The show needs to be posted on Tuesday at 4pm,

01:23:51   and I got it to you at 3 p.m.

01:23:53   Didn't you listen at double speed?

01:23:55   I don't understand. - What's wrong with you?

01:23:57   - No, I don't listen back again.

01:23:59   Something that I do do is I would sometimes

01:24:01   check the edits that you make.

01:24:03   Sometimes I wanna just tidy up a little bit.

01:24:05   - Yeah, yeah.

01:24:06   - And it's easy 'cause we edit differently.

01:24:08   You crossfade everything so I can see where your edits are.

01:24:11   - Yes, and this is where I crossfade everything

01:24:14   because I am not as good of an editor as you are.

01:24:16   And so like crossfades makes it much easier.

01:24:21   I open up Myke's one and it's like, "No crossfades here."

01:24:23   Myke doesn't rely on that low-level noob trash.

01:24:27   Like, he doesn't need to do it.

01:24:29   Myke just has hard cuts.

01:24:30   - I'm an artisanal editor, sir.

01:24:32   I find the natural point between the two words

01:24:36   to match that up.

01:24:37   No crossfade in here.

01:24:39   - In all seriousness, Myke's podcast edits look like,

01:24:42   I don't know, what professional sushi cuts look like.

01:24:45   Just these perfectly straight lines,

01:24:47   and it's like, "Wham, wham, wham."

01:24:49   and my edits look like trash.

01:24:51   (laughs)

01:24:52   - I would have done this a few times.

01:24:54   I'll include a link in the show notes

01:24:56   to what the Logic project just looks like at the end.

01:25:00   'Cause it really is kind of incredible

01:25:02   to see what is often thousands of cuts.

01:25:06   And it's quite a sight to see sometimes.

01:25:09   - Yeah, I think, again, I'll just reemphasize here

01:25:12   that yes, no one should edit a show this way,

01:25:15   But this is the byproduct of I'm very picky, but I genuinely think that for this show,

01:25:23   it does make it much better.

01:25:25   And I also think that this show has above average, at least re-listenability.

01:25:33   And so that, that is something that I often have in mind when I'm doing my pass is someone

01:25:38   may listen to this, not just once, but they may listen to it several times.

01:25:42   And then it kind of changes the calculus in my head of if an edit is worth it or if it's

01:25:50   worth tightening up this little section.

01:25:53   So this is why most podcasts are more ephemeral and then that's why it doesn't necessarily

01:26:00   make sense to do like two and a half passes of it.

01:26:03   So yeah because it's also content.

01:26:05   That's the thing we didn't mention.

01:26:06   We do take things out, remove things, move stuff around to make the content of it sound

01:26:11   better as well as just the raw speech of it right yeah and that is again just a very different thing

01:26:17   the content editing i do recommend for people depending on the type of show that they're making

01:26:21   yeah this isn't something that i do all the time i think you can remove the need for content editing

01:26:26   by planning a lot and then also just by paying attention while you're recording you know because

01:26:31   this shows that i do where i don't edit as heavily but we'll remove stuff from the final edit because

01:26:36   because I just know it didn't work.

01:26:38   But this show, we do listen through it in that way

01:26:41   to make sure that it is relistenable and replayable.

01:26:45   And again, it's like there are considerations that we make,

01:26:48   which is this weird chicken and egg scenario

01:26:50   that because the show is successful

01:26:52   and has a large listenership, you edit it more tightly.

01:26:56   But is the show successful because it's edited that way?

01:26:59   We'll never know.

01:27:01   But that's this chicken and egg that we're in,

01:27:04   that we're happy with.

01:27:05   but it's also why the show happens every month and not every week.

01:27:09   It's impossible to know if the show is more successful because of the way that we edit

01:27:14   it, but I know for sure that the answer is yes, even though I also know that this is

01:27:19   not generally applicable to all podcasts.

01:27:23   That is perfectly acceptable, I think, to say all of what you've just said and I'm

01:27:27   pretty sure I agree with all of it.

01:27:29   Great, I'm glad it only took me three tries to get it right in that sentence.

01:27:32   But nobody will ever know.