51: Speaking at Conferences
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Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development.
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I'm Marco Arment.
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And I'm David Smith.
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Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.
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So today we wanted to talk about speaking at conferences.
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David and I have both done a lot of it.
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David, you're right in the middle of two conferences now.
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And we, a lot of developers, you know, both attend conferences and also many developers
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are asked to speak at developer conferences.
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And so there's certainly a lot of, I don't know, a lot of interest around this topic,
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And we figure we go over like kind of what it's like to speak at a conference, why you
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might want to, why you might not want to, the process involved, and kind of how to manage
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Does that seem reasonable?
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Yeah, and I think it's a kind of thing that I remember being very intimidated by when
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I was early in my career, when I was in the phase where I would really only ever attend
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conferences, and I'd kind of go and I'd see these people do this thing up on a stage,
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and it would feel very scary.
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And my hope is that we can kind of make that a little less scary, or at least put some
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handles on it for if you're someone who is trying to think about getting into this or
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wanting to start doing conference speaking to make it a little bit less scary, because
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it's not really as scary as it may sometimes feel.
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And so, you know, first, let's assume that there's a conference that you either want
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to submit a proposal to or that has asked you to speak, so assume basically that you're
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in the planning process or the deciding process.
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One thing to think about is like, is this the kind of thing you want to do, and what
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are you looking to get out of it?
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It is not a quick or easy process, it is not something you can just kind of blow off and
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get on with your life.
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It takes a lot of time to prepare for conference speaking, and I mean, I would say most of
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my talks I'm probably preparing for maybe a week ahead of time, like a solid week, and
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that might be spread out across more time spans, but it's about a week of work, I would
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say, for a good talk.
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Is that about it right for you?
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I mean, I think I probably spend typically two to three days just getting the talk like
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I want it in terms of the structure and the slides and the overall kind of flow of it,
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and then it's probably another couple of days where it starts to become more spread out,
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but of just practicing of going through and doing it over and over again, and especially
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depending on how long your conference slot is.
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So sometimes I've done conference speaking where I'm only doing 15, 20-minute talks,
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where rehearsal is a bit easier because doing a full run-through you can do pretty quickly,
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but I've also done talks where it's 45 minutes to an hour, where then the rehearsal
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schedule gets a little bit longer and more drawn out because if you want to do a single
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run-through, it takes a full hour to do that run-through.
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But overall, yeah, I'd say it's about a week if you want to do it well, and I think
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that is something that I, when I was first, sort of, the first time I ever said yes to
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doing a conference speech, I remember having no real concept of how long it was going to
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I was like, "Oh, you know, it's the kind of thing, maybe it's like I'll spend an
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afternoon kind of putting it together," and how wrong I was about that I think is a
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good thing to say, just because if you don't plan for it in that way and factor that in,
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whether you can both afford the time for it and then if you actually just have the ability
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to do it, it is definitely something that if you're not expecting it, it's easy
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to imagine that the output only, in some ways it's even harder when you're just trying
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to put together a 15-minute talk.
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It seems like that should be really easy, but trying to have something that's concise
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and to the point in that period of time takes way more effort than you'd probably even
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Yeah, I mean, one of the places I usually start is by writing out the bulk of what I'm
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going to say, kind of like in an outline format that's kind of like an informal outline,
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so it's kind of like halfway between an outline and a blog post, because the basis
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of any good talk is some kind of coherent story that runs through it.
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So a good talk should basically read like, if you read a transcription of it, it should
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basically read like a good blog post, like a persuasive essay or a good story or something
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And so it really helps a lot to write it out, even if you're not writing out exactly every
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word you're going to say, just to at least write out a general overview that is readable
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so that you can then treat it a little bit like a blog post as you're writing it and
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be able to edit things, move things around, reframe things in ways that make more sense
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as a coherent story.
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Because if you don't do that, and I've had talks where I've done that, I've had
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talks where I haven't done that.
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The ones where I just opened up Keynote and just started making slides have always been
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substantially worse.
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The ones that I start out just as a presentation that way, just always worse.
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My best talks, and I haven't done that many, but ultimately my good talks are the ones
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where I have written it out basically as a blog post style of speaking and structurally
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first, and then gone and made the slides from that point.
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And this is all to say also that you should treat it not as this kind of full waterfall
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process of you write it all out, then you make the slides, then you go give them.
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All of my talks I have edited up until the night before I've given them.
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Sometimes the same day I've given them I'm still editing them.
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Because what you realize during rehearsal, which you should always rehearse your talks,
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hopefully even more than once if you have the time before you give them.
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Because rehearsing it by yourself, running through it, actually standing up with a clicker
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and having your laptop in presentation mode, actually running through it as you would give
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it, giving it to a room of nobody is incredibly valuable to get a sense for what works, how
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it flows, how it doesn't flow, what parts you stumble over, what parts need to be rethought
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or don't belong or break the rhythm or whatever else.
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The rehearsal part of it is invaluable, and I highly, highly recommend that you never
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give a talk that you have not rehearsed if it's this kind of format.
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And we'll get to, I have some nitpicks about this format that I'll get to later, but
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in the kind of traditional format of you have a person standing in front of a crowd with
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a microphone and a presentation clicker going through a slide deck and talking, you need
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to have rehearsed that.
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Because otherwise, basically it shows if you haven't rehearsed it.
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And it really helps to get out a lot of the problems that you kind of stand them away
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if you go through some rehearsals and realize what doesn't work and edit what needs to
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Yeah, and I think too, what I find is most helpful when I'm preparing some of the talk,
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I don't quite do the road that you do where you kind of outline it.
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I tend to think it through in my head, and it's the kind of thing that once I sign
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up for a talk, in the back of my mind for like a month, I'm kind of running through
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this vague sense of what I want to accomplish.
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And I think one of the key things that I've found is that if I can condense what I'm
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trying to say to a few sentences or a one-minute kind of overview, I can kind of get this kernel
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of like, "This is the thing that I want the audience to come away with."
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And I can be very concise and specific about that.
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I always find that's very helpful for me to prepare a compelling talk.
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And as I go through my rehearsals, I can kind of judge if I'm going down any dead ends
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or things that aren't connecting back to that main point.
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I used to be really scared of public speaking, and a lot of that was coming from overemphasizing,
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I think, the reaction that your audience is going to have to your talk, that you put all
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this time and effort into it.
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And initially, I used to think that everyone is going to be hanging on every word and really
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thinking about it and internalizing it, but then I started to go to conferences and I
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realized that what I leave with a talk is a general impression far more often than I
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do a specific detailed understanding or analysis of what someone just said.
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You kind of get this high-level, "Well, that's kind of what they were saying."
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And what you want to do as you're preparing it, I feel like, is to make sure that that
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impression that you're going to be leaving someone with is the actual impression that
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you're trying to leave them with.
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And so as you do it, if you have this core thesis that you can compare all of your slides
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with, compare all of the little anecdotes or the lines of thinking you're doing towards,
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I feel like that makes it a much more compelling thing because everything is just pointing
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back to the same point over and over and over again.
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When you're writing it or when you're thinking about what it will be like to give a conference
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talk and maybe you're stressing out about it, one of the things that I read, I think
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it was like there's that one book that everybody reads about giving presentations.
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I've totally forgotten what it is.
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I read the intro, basically, and that's it because I don't read very well.
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But one of the things I learned from that, which is a very valuable lesson, is that if
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you think about what people stress out about it, most of the time people are stressed out
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with the prospect of giving the talk about what if I say "uh" or "um" too much
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or I stumble over a sentence or I fumble something or I don't say something right.
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And the reality is that if you've been to conferences, if you actually think about it
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and actually pay attention to what people are saying word for word, take a little transcription
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for a minute in your mind and you'll see that people on stage are constantly fumbling
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over their words, are constantly saying "uh" or "um" or "like" and you are actually
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auto-correcting that in your head as you're listening.
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So it doesn't really matter at all.
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That is not a kind of thing you need to worry about when you're doing that kind of public
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Basically, the room does not care if you say "uh" or "um."
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They just don't care.
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So that's not something you have to worry about.
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And you're right that you also have to worry less about every single thing you're saying
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being great or accurate or tied together because the room is going to have very different levels
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of people paying attention.
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Especially, you know, look around a tech conference.
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Anybody you see with a laptop, they're not paying attention.
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Anyone with a phone in their hand, they're not paying attention.
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Anyone who's going to get a coffee or drink, they're not paying attention.
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So you're talking to maybe a third of the room who's actually listening.
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But where it can help to have a coherent story is to keep people's attention.
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If you're kind of all over the place where there's some rough spots in the presentation
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where you're throwing in stuff that didn't really need to be there or you're telling
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someone a long convoluted story that doesn't really make sense or whatever else, you're
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giving people opportunities to tune out.
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And so if you can keep them engaged with something that's a little bit better rehearsed and
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edited, more people will hear what you're trying to say.
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And people who want to pay attention will have an easier time paying attention.
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And I think it's also probably fair to say it's always better to run short than run
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You know, I mean, obviously conference organizers, if you're somebody, they give you a slot,
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you want to be respectful of, you know, if they say it's a half hour slot, don't show
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up and do a 10-minute talk.
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Like that probably wouldn't go well.
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But on the flip side, if you have to go one way or the other, always run short.
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No one's ever going to be like, oh, you know, it's like if you leave the audience
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being like, oh, I wish you would just talk, I had talked for hours and hours, it's like,
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you're doing great, don't worry about it.
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But on the flip side, if someone's like, oh, why won't he, he's like, is he ever
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going to finish?
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Is this, like, where is this going?
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That is far more problematic than being too short.
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And then I guess the next thing to talk about is kind of like, if you're going to do one
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of these talks, kind of the mechanics of like what should your presentation include, what
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should it not include, how to do certain things.
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I mean, number one that these presentations almost always include is slides.
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You have some kind of slide deck, usually from Keynote or if you are in the Microsoft
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world from PowerPoint, and you go through the slide deck and it can be like, you know,
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meaningfully structured or whatever else.
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It could be heavily designed.
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It could be very bare bones.
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It could be all pictures or all text or whatever else.
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I would say from my experience making slides, there's always going to be other people
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at the conference whose slides look way better than mine, and that will make me feel bad.
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But the reality is that spending a lot of time on your slides, especially the kind of
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conferences that listeners of the show would attend or be asked to speak at, you know,
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a lot of like kind of nerdy ones, spending a ton of time on your slides is a massive
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time sink that will never end and is probably not worth stressing too much out about.
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Like I mean, one of my talks I gave at Singleton a few years back, I didn't even have slides
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because I was like I had a bad experience with slides at a previous conference and I
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said, "All right, next time I do one, no slides."
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It was totally fine.
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Like if you have like a good enough story to speak and you can keep people's attention
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well enough by just the words, and it's a little bit harder, but it's possible, then
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doing without slides is actually kind of freeing and wonderful.
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But you know, if you're going to have slides, I would say, again, for the people listening
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to this show doing like, you know, geeky and programming types of conferences, I would
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say don't spend a whole lot of time trying to make them the most incredibly designed
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slides ever.
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Keep them very simple.
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You know, don't put a lot of text on them.
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Just keep it simple.
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You know, single sentences or words, pictures if you have to show pictures, definitely don't
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be reading off of them.
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You know, simple stuff you can get from pretty much any, you know, guide on how to do good
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presentations.
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>> I think in many ways it reminds me of app design and the way that I have to approach
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it myself where I always admire slide decks that are beautiful and really well put together
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and really clever, but the reality is in the same way that I'm not really an app designer
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and I can't make, like there's a certain kind of design that I love to look at in an app,
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but I just can't do myself.
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I understand that in the same way when I'm designing a keynote deck, I can't make it
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look pretty in that way.
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And so all of my, all of the presentations I think I've ever given, I open up keynote,
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I choose the first template, which is a black background with white text.
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>> That's very important, by the way, because if you, you know, at any conference you see,
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like you see the problems when somebody has a white background, basically this is being
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projected by a dim, crappy projector onto a gray wall or screens.
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So like anything that has like a white edge, it's going to be all like, you know, this
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blurry white edge and it's just going to look like a big square in the middle of the wall.
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Whereas if you have a black background and white elements, then those elements seem like
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they're floating in the middle of the wall.
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You don't see the borders around it, basically, and that's why Apple's slide decks are always,
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you know, like when they're presented things, it's always black backgrounds with things
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just kind of floating in the middle.
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That's why it looks better and it's easier to see for the people in the room.
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>> Yeah, and then beyond that, I think like just like you said, it's being careful to,
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for me, my slides are usually like a short phrase, like two or three words on each slide.
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They're just there for emphasis.
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They're not there to convey any information typically.
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Like every now and then they'll have a slide that's, you know, it's like it's a graph or
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it's a picture or a diagram where it's supposed to convey information.
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But otherwise it's just, you know, essentially whatever sentence I'm saying right now, if
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there's something I want to emphasize, it's on the slide behind me.
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And it's kind of like, not like a transcript in that way, but it's if you just went through
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and listened and looked at the slides, they're just there to emphasize things.
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But the next thing I also wanted to mention too is it's the importance of if you actually
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are doing this and you actually take the experience of doing it.
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So you signed up, you've built this presentation, the actual experience of going and giving
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a talk, some things to keep in mind.
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One is you always want to, or ideally you'd always want to do it, not like a run through
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in the venue, but you ideally will have your slides on the machine that they're going to
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You're going to want to have the clicker.
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You want to stand on the stage and, you know, just hit next slide a few times, make sure
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everything looks good, make sure you feel comfortable with where everything is.
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Like the worst thing is if you just, you know, at the last minute hand somebody a zip drive,
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which is kind of amusing, but in conferences or the only situation I can counter now where
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I ever have to use like a little USB thumb drive, because that seems to be the universal
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way of getting conference slides to the organizers.
00:17:02
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But you hand that to somebody, like you don't want to be handing that to them the moment
00:17:06
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before you step on stage, because who knows what's going to happen when they try and open
00:17:10
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that keynote deck.
00:17:11
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So you want to do a quick run through.
00:17:13
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You want to kind of make sure everything's together.
00:17:15
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And for me, at least I find too, that it helps, makes me a little less nervous if I, it's
00:17:19
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like if the, all of the practical logistic parts are taken care of, that I know, I know
00:17:25
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where I'm going to be, I know what I'm going to hold in my hand, what kind of microphone
00:17:29
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it's going to be, for example.
00:17:31
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Like it makes a big difference in terms of if you are going to have a handheld microphone,
00:17:37
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where you're going to have to be aware of keeping that in this, you know, in a constant
00:17:39
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place where your mouth is.
00:17:41
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If it's a lapel microphone, where you have to be careful of how you move your shoulders,
00:17:44
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because if you have a lapel microphone, sometimes you need to be careful that you don't turn
00:17:48
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your head the opposite direction of your shoulders, where suddenly you can, you know, your voice
00:17:54
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starts to fall off from the microphone.
00:17:56
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Or if it's the really cool ones, the ones that kind of like stick out of your ear and
00:18:00
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come down, where you can have a bit more flexibility.
00:18:02
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But it's a good thing to run through that.
00:18:04
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And in my experience, if you ask an organizer, "Hey, I'd love to do a quick run through of
00:18:11
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Like, I want to be more prepared," I very rarely will you encounter an organizer who's
00:18:15
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like, "No, no, no, you know, we can't do that."
00:18:18
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Like their goal is for you to do well.
00:18:20
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And so it's always a good idea to try and do that.
00:18:23
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Do a quick run through.
00:18:24
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Make sure you feel comfortable in the space and are confident that everything's going
00:18:29
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And so you don't have those things weighing on you as you're getting ready to actually
00:18:33
◼
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All right, so now we're going to talk about basically, you know, things like is it worth
00:18:38
◼
►
doing conference speaking and why you might want to in the format, etc.
00:18:43
◼
►
But first, our sponsor, which is always worth talking about, our sponsor this week is Linode.
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We've basically talked so far about if you want to do conference speaking, some general
00:20:22
◼
►
tips and pointers, as much as we can fit into 18 minutes, of how to do it, how to write,
00:20:28
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►
and how to do some technical sides of it.
00:20:31
◼
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I want to talk a little bit about, though, reasons why you might want to do this at all,
00:20:35
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and reasons why you might not want to do this at all.
00:20:39
◼
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If you get to any level of notability in a field, especially in the tech field, you are
00:20:45
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likely to be asked to speak at some kind of event or conference.
00:20:52
◼
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In our little world of app and tech people, we have lots of conferences, big and small.
00:20:57
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Many of them are more commercially run, where the speakers are getting paid a substantial
00:21:03
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amount and the tickets cost a lot of money, and they're usually larger, and they usually
00:21:08
◼
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appeal to wider markets, like a Java conference or whatever.
00:21:12
◼
►
And then you have a lot of these smaller indie ones that I think the iOS world has more of
00:21:18
◼
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those, typically, where you have smaller budgets, oftentimes the speakers are not getting paid
00:21:23
◼
►
either at all, or they might have their travel expenses and ticket covered, but no additional
00:21:29
◼
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money after that, or some small amount, like under $2,000, say.
00:21:33
◼
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Obviously it varies for you whether that's considered a small amount, but something in
00:21:40
◼
►
You can look at whether to do this as, basically, if you're going to be a professional conference
00:21:47
◼
►
speaker, if you want to speak for money, if the money is what drives you here, you really
00:21:53
◼
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need to be doing it a lot.
00:21:55
◼
►
And that's why people who speak on conference circuits, they tend to make a small number
00:22:00
◼
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of talks and give each one a high number of times.
00:22:03
◼
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Sometimes they'll give the same talk all around the country or all around the world at different
00:22:06
◼
►
events for a whole year, because that's their business.
00:22:10
◼
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They make one amazing talk that is applicable to a wide audience in a certain industry,
00:22:14
◼
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and they go around the world and they get paid good money, because effectively that's
00:22:19
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their full-time job, or that is most of their job.
00:22:23
◼
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Maybe they use that to build credibility to sell more books, or they write books to increase
00:22:27
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their speaking fees.
00:22:30
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That is a whole career, and if you want to do that, that is a very different career than
00:22:35
◼
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being a software developer.
00:22:36
◼
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That might be well-suited to you, but you have to decide whether that's the kind of
00:22:40
◼
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career that you want and all the things that come along with it, like a lot of travel,
00:22:44
◼
►
things like that.
00:22:47
◼
►
If that's not your goal, if your goal is simply to speak at a conference because it
00:22:52
◼
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might be fun, or you want to attend that conference, and that's an easy way to attend it, or
00:22:58
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you want to promote something that you're doing, like an app you're making, that's
00:23:01
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a very different job.
00:23:04
◼
►
In that kind of case, whether or how much you're being paid is way less important,
00:23:09
◼
►
because chances are whatever they're going to offer you is not going to be worth the
00:23:13
◼
►
week-plus of work that you're going to lose by agreeing to do this, not to mention the
00:23:19
◼
►
value of whatever stress it might put you through.
00:23:23
◼
►
The money part of it, I think, is almost irrelevant for most people who are in our kind of business,
00:23:27
◼
►
because it's not going to be enough money where the money is going to matter to you,
00:23:33
◼
►
in all likelihood.
00:23:35
◼
►
I would say ignore the money part of it, and really think about, "Do I want to do this
00:23:40
◼
►
to promote something, or to give back to a conference I've loved for years, or to just
00:23:46
◼
►
get better at public speaking, or whatever else?"
00:23:49
◼
►
And that's a very different question.
00:23:52
◼
►
To me, I've actually decided over the last couple years that it is almost never worth
00:23:57
◼
►
doing it for me, because I get so much stress about it, and I lose so much time to it, and
00:24:03
◼
►
that even when I go to a conference to speak at it, I end up not really able to enjoy that
00:24:08
◼
►
conference until my talk is over, which is often at least halfway through it.
00:24:14
◼
►
All the fun socializing and things that happened before my talk, I basically don't enjoy,
00:24:20
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►
or don't even get to attend.
00:24:22
◼
►
I have recently found that I would rather just do podcasts and occasional blog posts
00:24:28
◼
►
to get my message out, and hardly ever speak at conferences, and then just attend conferences
00:24:32
◼
►
because I enjoy them, and that way I'm able to enjoy them, rather than really do a lot
00:24:36
◼
►
of talks, and that's why I do almost no talks anymore.
00:24:39
◼
►
What do you think?
00:24:41
◼
►
I think there's a tricky balance, and I think for sure you're right in the sense that
00:24:45
◼
►
I don't do conferences for financial reasons.
00:24:49
◼
►
They're definitely a loss, part of my professional career at this point, and going down the route
00:24:55
◼
►
of trying to do it more professionally, where you would actually get reasonable speaking
00:24:58
◼
►
fees and things, it's just a whole other world that I don't really have much interest
00:25:03
◼
►
I think when I was starting out, and I had the first time a conference organizer reached
00:25:07
◼
►
out to me and said, "Hey, I think you'd be a good fit for this conference," I remember
00:25:12
◼
►
I wanted to do it mostly just so that I would have done it.
00:25:18
◼
►
And not in a "Oh, look at me, I've done it" kind of thing, but to eliminate the fear
00:25:26
◼
►
I think public speaking is one of the things that it's so easy to get scared of, to really
00:25:31
◼
►
have genuine, honest fear about, but the only way you can really get over that is to work
00:25:37
◼
►
on it and try it, and if you're well-prepared, it's less scary than you might expect.
00:25:43
◼
►
And largely, I do conference speaking now just for the purpose of practicing and developing
00:25:48
◼
►
that skill to make it easier and better for myself down the road, to give myself opportunities
00:25:55
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►
that I may not otherwise have to speak at.
00:25:58
◼
►
There are some conferences that I would have always wanted to go to, for example, and you
00:26:03
◼
►
kind of have the goal of, "Well, maybe one day I could get to speak at that," and the
00:26:07
◼
►
only way you're going to be good enough to do that is if you have practiced.
00:26:12
◼
►
And one thing I will say is a nice way to start out, if you're trying to feel this out
00:26:18
◼
►
for yourself, is it something that's worth it for you, is it something that you'd like
00:26:21
◼
►
to do, is to start small.
00:26:24
◼
►
And there's a lot of conferences that are small, like really, I think of like CocoaConf as
00:26:30
◼
►
an example of this, where it's a relatively small, multi-track conference that is probably
00:26:34
◼
►
able, anyone who's able to put in some preparation could probably speak at.
00:26:40
◼
►
Or another example is a lot of user groups.
00:26:42
◼
►
While conference speaking is a bit more sophisticated, a lot of local user groups will have monthly
00:26:49
◼
►
things where someone gets up and talks for 10 minutes, 20 minutes about something cool
00:26:52
◼
►
they're working on.
00:26:53
◼
►
They'll kind of get a feel for it.
00:26:54
◼
►
But it is a tricky question to say, "Is it worth it?"
00:26:58
◼
►
Because I think it's something that you typically are doing for reasons other than strictly
00:27:04
◼
►
rational reasons.
00:27:06
◼
►
For me, a lot of it's about conquering a fear and being comfortable doing this so that I
00:27:11
◼
►
don't have this part of my professional skill set that I feel like isn't there.
00:27:19
◼
►
Because while the nature of being an independent developer and doing work largely by myself
00:27:24
◼
►
is not that I need to keep working, I have tremendous communication skills, but I would
00:27:29
◼
►
feel bad about letting those skills just sort of fall waste.
00:27:34
◼
►
And so overall, I think it is a tricky thing to find that balance.
00:27:38
◼
►
And I think it is very important to understand that it is a huge cost and sink in terms of
00:27:43
◼
►
time that it—all said and done, I'm speaking at OOL this year, and that is a conference
00:27:50
◼
►
that's in Ireland.
00:27:51
◼
►
So in addition to roughly maybe a week's worth of prep, I'm also going to be flying
00:27:56
◼
►
somewhere and dealing with jet lag and then dealing with jet lag on the way back.
00:28:00
◼
►
In many ways, we had these similar conversations when we were talking about going to WWDC, like
00:28:04
◼
►
is it worth it to go to that, where you can kind of get a lot of the feeling of it without
00:28:10
◼
►
actually going, you can get a lot of the information, but there's something different about actually
00:28:16
◼
►
And for me, conference speaking is a great way to kind of get myself to go to more conferences,
00:28:21
◼
►
because I feel it's a hard thing to sometimes decide, "Oh, do I want to pay to travel,
00:28:26
◼
►
do I want to pay to buy a ticket and be away from my family to attend?"
00:28:29
◼
►
It makes it a little bit easier where I feel like I'm accomplishing something by doing
00:28:34
◼
►
that, that I'm getting better at speaking as a result, and typically it's helpful
00:28:37
◼
►
that they pay for the accommodation, the travel, and the ticket.
00:28:41
◼
►
But there's definitely a balance to be struck there between, "Am I getting enough out
00:28:47
◼
►
And the nice thing about conference speaking is, if you really want to do it and pursue
00:28:50
◼
►
it a lot, you can probably find opportunities to do that.
00:28:53
◼
►
If you only want to do it one or two times, you can probably find a way to do that too.
00:28:57
◼
►
Like it's easily scalable up and down between the two extremes.
00:29:02
◼
►
Yeah, and to close this out, because we're out of time now, I think I would say if you're
00:29:07
◼
►
on the fence about whether to speak at a conference, reasons that you don't need to worry about
00:29:12
◼
►
are things like, "What if I'm terrible at it?
00:29:14
◼
►
What if people laugh at me?"
00:29:16
◼
►
That doesn't really happen in this community.
00:29:19
◼
►
That literally never happens.
00:29:21
◼
►
So you don't have to worry about that.
00:29:22
◼
►
I think what you mainly have to worry about is, "Is it worth it to me?"
00:29:26
◼
►
And if you've never done it before, it's a good reason to just do it.
00:29:30
◼
►
Just try it, just to find out if it's worth it for you.
00:29:32
◼
►
You might find that you love it.
00:29:33
◼
►
You might find that you hate it.
00:29:35
◼
►
But if you have the opportunity to try it, try it, and then decide from there.
00:29:41
◼
►
And I think that's the right way to think about it.
00:29:43
◼
►
Just keep an open mind to it, and it's an important thing to just try.
00:29:48
◼
►
And if it doesn't work, that's no problem.
00:29:50
◼
►
But you've learned something about yourself in the process.
00:29:53
◼
►
All right, thanks everybody for listening, and we'll talk to you next week.