Under the Radar

00:00:00 ◼   ► Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development.

00:00:03 ◼   ► I'm Mark Orment.

00:00:04 ◼   ► And I'm David Smith.

00:00:05 ◼   ► Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.

00:00:09 ◼   ► So last week we talked about kind of why Apple probably needs to improve the App Store in

00:00:13 ◼   ► broad terms, like, you know, challenging the question of like, does the App Store need

00:00:19 ◼   ► to be improved?

00:00:20 ◼   ► And it's sort of like, what kind of improvements might we see?

00:00:22 ◼   ► And last week we talked in kind of high level of mostly just like, why we think it really

00:00:28 ◼   ► does need improvement, why we aren't just being selfish and serving our own needs as

00:00:31 ◼   ► independent developers, trying to make the App Store more beneficial for us. I think

00:00:37 ◼   ► we argued well that Apple really should change it to benefit not only the developers, but

00:00:44 ◼   ► themselves and customers as well. I don't think the App Store is as good as it can be.

00:00:49 ◼   ► I don't think we've learned nothing from its eight years of existence that could inform

00:00:54 ◼   ► you know, directions it should try to take or changes that it should try to make. And

00:00:58 ◼   ► I don't think that the apps are as good as they can be for the customers that result

00:01:02 ◼   ► from the system that we have now. You know, like I recalled when I was getting on a plane

00:01:07 ◼   ► how I tried to download like a bunch of good games and they were actually pretty hard to

00:01:11 ◼   ► find. And there's so much on there that's just kind of crappy and simplistic and even

00:01:18 ◼   ► like outright hostile to users which is like, you know, shoving ads all over the place and

00:01:22 ◼   ► and tricking them into buying coins and everything.

00:01:24 ◼   ► And I think that there's clear evidence

00:01:28 ◼   ► that the App Store not only can be made better,

00:01:32 ◼   ► but should be made better.

00:01:34 ◼   ► But the actual specifics of doing that,

00:01:36 ◼   ► I think, are really tricky.

00:01:38 ◼   ► - But I think we can think about it and have some ideas.

00:01:41 ◼   ► The nice thing on the plus side is that we've been

00:01:43 ◼   ► following the App Store for, I think I've been making a,

00:01:47 ◼   ► my first app was submitted almost eight years ago now,

00:01:51 ◼   ► or whatever, I was there almost at the beginning,

00:01:53 ◼   ► and so I look at it and it's like,

00:01:55 ◼   ► I think I have some ideas.

00:01:58 ◼   ► - I think one of the most obvious

00:02:00 ◼   ► is to look at the editorial side.

00:02:02 ◼   ► 'Cause right now, there's always the question

00:02:04 ◼   ► that people raise of discoverability.

00:02:07 ◼   ► And when people complain about discoverability,

00:02:08 ◼   ► what they're usually really complaining about

00:02:10 ◼   ► is they think their app deserves more visibility.

00:02:14 ◼   ► Trying to look at this from a neutral perspective,

00:02:16 ◼   ► not just saying that I think my app deserves more visibility,

00:02:20 ◼   ► I think the main problem the App Store has

00:02:23 ◼   ► with discoverability is that they have

00:02:26 ◼   ► this massive number of apps,

00:02:28 ◼   ► this unfathomable number of apps that they have to

00:02:33 ◼   ► kind of sort through and surface somehow,

00:02:35 ◼   ► and then they only have really a pretty small number

00:02:39 ◼   ► of places that you can browse those apps.

00:02:41 ◼   ► So there's the total surface area of discoverability

00:02:46 ◼   ► besides just search, which is a separate problem,

00:02:49 ◼   ► is kind of low.

00:02:50 ◼   ► You basically only have top charts,

00:02:53 ◼   ► and you have top charts in different categories,

00:02:55 ◼   ► so that helps a little bit.

00:02:57 ◼   ► But you have top charts,

00:02:58 ◼   ► and then you have the editorial picks.

00:03:01 ◼   ► And even though the editorial staff is,

00:03:04 ◼   ► from what it seems, massive,

00:03:07 ◼   ► because they have different editorial staffs

00:03:09 ◼   ► in different countries too.

00:03:10 ◼   ► So there's the amount of staffing devoted

00:03:13 ◼   ► to picking those 20 or whatever featured apps

00:03:17 ◼   ► on the front page every week,

00:03:18 ◼   ► plus all the little subcategories, plus all the collections,

00:03:20 ◼   ► plus doing that or some subset of that

00:03:22 ◼   ► in a whole bunch of different countries

00:03:23 ◼   ► and regions around the world,

00:03:25 ◼   ► that is not a small endeavor.

00:03:27 ◼   ► But the total result of that is that

00:03:30 ◼   ► when a customer goes to the app store

00:03:32 ◼   ► and looks through the editorial picks,

00:03:35 ◼   ► you can be through the entire editorial list

00:03:39 ◼   ► in like a minute and a half.

00:03:40 ◼   ► It takes so much human effort on Apple's side

00:03:47 ◼   ► to produce a relatively small number

00:03:49 ◼   ► of recommendations every week,

00:03:51 ◼   ► and every week is not that frequent.

00:03:53 ◼   ► So then you have the top charts, which is just like,

00:03:56 ◼   ► it just has the problem of basically the rich get richer,

00:03:59 ◼   ► where it's very hard to break into the top charts.

00:04:02 ◼   ► They tend to be self-reinforcing,

00:04:04 ◼   ► because then people who browse the top charts

00:04:06 ◼   ► buy from the top charts and keep them going up even further.

00:04:09 ◼   ► So that system also only helps a very small number of apps.

00:04:14 ◼   ► And then you have search,

00:04:15 ◼   ► where search I think is really one of the only places

00:04:19 ◼   ► where most apps can be found.

00:04:21 ◼   ► But the search isn't that good in the App Store

00:04:24 ◼   ► and it has gotten less terrible over time.

00:04:28 ◼   ► I still wouldn't call it great or even necessarily good

00:04:32 ◼   ► but it is at least less bad.

00:04:35 ◼   ► But good searches are really hard

00:04:38 ◼   ► and as we see from web search which has similar challenges

00:04:42 ◼   ► but Apple has even less data in some ways

00:04:45 ◼   ► than what you have on web search to go off of.

00:04:48 ◼   ► Although they have a lot more data in other ways

00:04:49 ◼   ► that I'm not sure they're using.

00:04:50 ◼   ► But it seems like the overall discoverability

00:04:55 ◼   ► of an app in the App Store is pretty miserable

00:04:58 ◼   ► for almost every app, just because the number of ways

00:05:02 ◼   ► people have to see your app are so much smaller

00:05:07 ◼   ► than the number of apps in the store.

00:05:08 ◼   ► And I don't know, do you know,

00:05:11 ◼   ► what do you think would be a decent way

00:05:12 ◼   ► to address that problem?

00:05:13 ◼   ► So I think the most straightforward thing that I think they could do is the technological

00:05:21 ◼   ► solution, where there's more of a technological solution.

00:05:23 ◼   ► Things like search.

00:05:24 ◼   ► It makes me think of when I go to Amazon.com, right?

00:05:28 ◼   ► And I think Amazon sells several hundred million products.

00:05:34 ◼   ► But I find that I'm pretty able to quickly go through and find good, solid choices because

00:05:42 ◼   ► their search is more than just a text box that I put some words into. I put some words

00:05:48 ◼   ► in a text box and then I can go through and I can sort in a variety of different ways.

00:05:53 ◼   ► I can subdivide or there's further categories beyond just the highest level category. And

00:06:00 ◼   ► I could imagine an interface in the App Store that would let you have more fine-grain control

00:06:06 ◼   ► over what I'm searching for. That you have the ability to say like, "Show me..." even

00:06:11 ◼   ► just like obvious stuff like show me free or paid apps, show me apps that are universal

00:06:18 ◼   ► or iPhone only, show me apps that have reviews above a certain amount or are updated frequently

00:06:27 ◼   ► or whatever. Like there are various criteria beyond just a text box that you could do to

00:06:33 ◼   ► increase the ability to surface apps that are more specific to someone's needs. Because

00:06:40 ◼   ► Because I think that the search as it is now, for example, has the same kind of rich-get-richer

00:06:44 ◼   ► problem that sometimes I've benefited from in some of my apps, and sometimes I'm hurt

00:06:49 ◼   ► by in other apps, where if you're the top one or two search results, that's great.

00:06:54 ◼   ► That's a really powerful marketing tool.

00:06:57 ◼   ► But if you're not, you're just invisible as far as the typical user is concerned.

00:07:04 ◼   ► And that may or may not be good.

00:07:07 ◼   ► If you're somebody who's looking for something of a very particular kind, you just have to

00:07:11 ◼   ► do a lot of sitting there, sort of paging through the app store, doing things that it

00:07:15 ◼   ► should be able to do programmatically for you.

00:07:19 ◼   ► That side of it seems like that's a more straightforward, like that's a technological fix.

00:07:24 ◼   ► And then yeah, I think on the editorial side, I think putting more and more resources into

00:07:29 ◼   ► that seems like it can sort of only makes it better.

00:07:32 ◼   ► if you turn over the featured area more regularly. And also one thing I've always thought they

00:07:39 ◼   ► should do is taking the work that they put in editorial to whenever an app is featured,

00:07:46 ◼   ► indicating that the app was featured somewhere on that app's page, for example. Like right

00:07:51 ◼   ► now I think unless you are an editor's pick...

00:07:53 ◼   ► Yeah, editor's choice gets you that I think, right? But I don't think anything else does.

00:07:57 ◼   ► But that seems like one of those things, if it's almost like if Apple has taken the time

00:08:00 ◼   ► and effort to look at an app and say, "You know what? This is on the approved list."

00:08:04 ◼   ► They're saying that when they put it into the featured tab. Someone at Apple has sat

00:08:08 ◼   ► down and looked at it. Once your feature is over, obviously I can put that in my description

00:08:12 ◼   ► and say, "Featured by Apple in the Stay on Track Fitness category," and such and such.

00:08:18 ◼   ► But wouldn't it be great if there's a little thumbs up icon next to the apps that Apple

00:08:23 ◼   ► has said are really good? And as a customer, or like I was saying in search, of being able

00:08:29 ◼   ► to say has been featured, I think would be an interesting kind of a way to improve discoverability

00:08:35 ◼   ► of these apps that, you know, they're doing this work anyway, like they're spending that

00:08:39 ◼   ► time to come up with a weekly featured, but then once they, the app has been featured,

00:08:44 ◼   ► like that information just sort of disappears.

00:08:46 ◼   ► I'm thinking too about like, about just the app page in general, like we also have a,

00:08:52 ◼   ► I think a fairly big issue of just horrible abuses of app metadata, and there are some

00:08:57 ◼   ► some rules around what you are and aren't allowed

00:09:00 ◼   ► to put in the description and your keywords

00:09:02 ◼   ► and your screenshots, but it seems like those rules

00:09:04 ◼   ► are fairly loosely enforced a lot of the time.

00:09:08 ◼   ► And so you have things like spamming up the description

00:09:12 ◼   ► of your app with like tons and tons of like testimonials

00:09:15 ◼   ► and stuff right on top and you have things like

00:09:18 ◼   ► spamming keywords of other app names of your competitors'

00:09:21 ◼   ► apps so that you turn up for their searches,

00:09:24 ◼   ► which has been, I think, against the rules

00:09:27 ◼   ► at the very beginning but is almost completely unenforced,

00:09:30 ◼   ► partly out of necessity of just like a scale issue there,

00:09:32 ◼   ► but it's still very, you know, mostly unenforced.

00:09:35 ◼   ► You have things like whether you're supposed to put text

00:09:38 ◼   ► and overlays on your screenshots or not,

00:09:41 ◼   ► the good correct thing to do is not to do that,

00:09:44 ◼   ► but so many people do it that you are at a disadvantage

00:09:46 ◼   ► if you don't, I feel like.

00:09:47 ◼   ► Maybe just like some basic rule tightening

00:09:52 ◼   ► of what you can and can't put in your app metadata

00:09:55 ◼   ► and on that app page, I think would improve

00:09:57 ◼   ► the real world browsability a lot,

00:10:00 ◼   ► and would improve search, 'cause then like,

00:10:01 ◼   ► if you more strictly enforce the keyword issues

00:10:04 ◼   ► and everything, you won't have as poor

00:10:06 ◼   ► search results for things.

00:10:08 ◼   ► I don't know, do you think there's meaningful change

00:10:11 ◼   ► to be had there on the app pages?

00:10:13 ◼   ► - I think, it certainly seems like there should be

00:10:15 ◼   ► a ways to make that better.

00:10:17 ◼   ► And I think the consistency is, I think,

00:10:19 ◼   ► a big thing that I know I've always been frustrated with.

00:10:22 ◼   ► And it's like, I look at, say for example,

00:10:25 ◼   ► the watch apps, making watch apps now.

00:10:26 ◼   ► And right now, I believe your watch screenshot

00:10:31 ◼   ► can only show you the screenshot of the app.

00:10:34 ◼   ► And it's a rule that so far

00:10:36 ◼   ► they seem to be enforcing strongly.

00:10:37 ◼   ► And that used to be the case,

00:10:39 ◼   ► back in the case with the iPhone.

00:10:41 ◼   ► And then just over time, it stopped being the case.

00:10:45 ◼   ► And things like that,

00:10:46 ◼   ► like that consistency I think would be helpful.

00:10:49 ◼   ► And I think they did the same thing with app previews,

00:10:53 ◼   ► which I believe were originally only allowed to show in-app screens, but I've certainly

00:10:58 ◼   ► seen app previews now that show other things.

00:11:01 ◼   ► Really?

00:11:02 ◼   ► That wasn't even like a year.

00:11:04 ◼   ► And that I don't see as much, but it has the same type of problem.

00:11:07 ◼   ► It's like, it's the scale that app review is dealing with that, are they really able

00:11:13 ◼   ► to every time an app goes through review, evaluate every single screenshot in every

00:11:19 ◼   ► single country and the app previews associated with that for potentially many sizes. I look

00:11:27 ◼   ► at it and it's like, "That's just a really tough problem." But enforcing that I think

00:11:31 ◼   ► would be certainly helpful. And I like what they did, for example, with app previews.

00:11:37 ◼   ► I think that's a great way to improve. That's probably the biggest improvement for a lot

00:11:43 ◼   ► of apps in the App Store page from eight years ago, is being able to kind of show people

00:11:48 ◼   ► what your app will be like when you actually get it,

00:11:50 ◼   ► 'cause if you don't have a trial or something like that,

00:11:53 ◼   ► for a lot of apps, a screenshot, a static screenshot,

00:11:55 ◼   ► doesn't really show you what the app is or what it's like.

00:12:00 ◼   ► If it's something that you kind of have to experience

00:12:02 ◼   ► or the motion and the animation

00:12:04 ◼   ► or whatever it is of the app is the important part,

00:12:07 ◼   ► having a way to show that is great.

00:12:08 ◼   ► But yeah, and I think there's those,

00:12:11 ◼   ► the things that I think about on the app page

00:12:13 ◼   ► is trying to more straightforwardly indicate

00:12:15 ◼   ► the customer, the overall quality of the app. And some of those things that I think about

00:12:21 ◼   ► on the App Store page is the way reviews reset every time you submit a new update.

00:12:25 ◼   ► Oh boy, reviews.

00:12:26 ◼   ► And so reviews is a whole thing, but that's one of the things that I look at. And when

00:12:32 ◼   ► I launch a new app, or even worse, is when I launch a new update, I try and get a bunch

00:12:38 ◼   ► of attention. I do a big 2-0. And I try and get a lot of people coming to the App Store

00:12:43 ◼   ► to download my app, and the app suddenly has no stars next to it, like has no reviews.

00:12:48 ◼   ► Yeah, when you're sending all that traffic to it.

00:12:50 ◼   ► It's like, why is this like—I understand why they did that. I remember when they implemented

00:12:56 ◼   ► that policy, it was because people would run into issues where you'd have like a bad

00:13:00 ◼   ► update that would crash for everybody. You'd get hundreds of one-star reviews, you'd

00:13:05 ◼   ► fix it, and then all those one-star reviews would still be there. That's problematic

00:13:10 ◼   ► in one way, but it's like, you approach this, like the thing that always makes sense to me is

00:13:14 ◼   ► like you should show, if you don't have enough reviews for the current version, then show

00:13:18 ◼   ► like the weighted average for the last 30 days, or always show the weighted average for the last 30

00:13:25 ◼   ► days or 90 days or whatever. Like anything like that where there is data, if there is

00:13:30 ◼   ► information that we can show customers, like if we can show if you've been featured, if we can show

00:13:34 ◼   ► the kinds of reviews that you tend to get. They're collecting all this data with the

00:13:41 ◼   ► new analytics stuff in iTunes Connect, like all the retention and engagement data. They have a

00:13:46 ◼   ► lot of information about whether this app is good. It's like surfacing somehow that kind of

00:13:52 ◼   ► information to the customer to say, "People who download this app really like this app."

00:13:57 ◼   ► I don't exactly know how you show that, but if you have the data, somehow indicating that to

00:14:03 ◼   ► to the customer seems like a good use of it,

00:14:06 ◼   ► rather than it just kind of disappearing into the ether.

00:14:09 ◼   ► - The whole star rating system, I think,

00:14:11 ◼   ► really needs a lot of help.

00:14:13 ◼   ► The idea of, first of all, star ratings

00:14:16 ◼   ► are very prominent in the app and in the app store,

00:14:19 ◼   ► and many things, I think, depend on them.

00:14:22 ◼   ► I know search ranking has been rumored

00:14:24 ◼   ► to be shifting with star rating.

00:14:26 ◼   ► Obviously, Apple's probably more likely

00:14:28 ◼   ► to feature something that has good ratings

00:14:29 ◼   ► from past versions.

00:14:31 ◼   ► And also just, I think, buyers are,

00:14:33 ◼   ► or getters are much more likely to download an app

00:14:38 ◼   ► that has good ratings under it

00:14:40 ◼   ► when they go to look at its page.

00:14:41 ◼   ► And then, if you're looking for an app,

00:14:43 ◼   ► if you reach an app that has a few one-star ratings

00:14:46 ◼   ► and the reasons that the people cite seem valid,

00:14:50 ◼   ► then that's a big turn off

00:14:52 ◼   ► and you probably are gonna reconsider buying

00:14:54 ◼   ► or getting that app.

00:14:56 ◼   ► So they do matter a lot

00:14:58 ◼   ► and the way they're implemented is so mediocre.

00:15:00 ◼   ► I feel like this is an obvious area

00:15:02 ◼   ► for substantial specific improvements.

00:15:05 ◼   ► So obviously one of the big ones is just quality control.

00:15:08 ◼   ► Like you see a lot of reviews out there

00:15:11 ◼   ► that really could have used moderation,

00:15:13 ◼   ► like by App Store staff.

00:15:15 ◼   ► I honestly, I think they might want to consider

00:15:17 ◼   ► a review before publish model.

00:15:20 ◼   ► I know that's a big scale, but they're a big company.

00:15:22 ◼   ► This is a big store.

00:15:23 ◼   ► You know, you gotta invest resources sometimes.

00:15:25 ◼   ► Also just reconsidering the five star system at all.

00:15:29 ◼   ► It's basically a one star and five star system.

00:15:32 ◼   ► So why not consider a system that is more just based on,

00:15:35 ◼   ► do I feel good about this,

00:15:36 ◼   ► or do I feel bad about this app?

00:15:38 ◼   ► And rather than have this trying to make people quantify,

00:15:41 ◼   ► like, well, how good or how bad do I feel?

00:15:43 ◼   ► Because I think we see over and over again,

00:15:45 ◼   ► those systems don't work very well,

00:15:46 ◼   ► and they don't really accurately represent

00:15:49 ◼   ► what people are thinking with this app.

00:15:50 ◼   ► And then the other obvious problem

00:15:52 ◼   ► of having there be no way for developers

00:15:55 ◼   ► to respond to these things publicly or privately,

00:15:57 ◼   ► and so I think publicly would be the only way

00:15:59 ◼   ► you really need to,

00:16:00 ◼   ► think you necessarily need to give developers access to privately contacted reviewers, that

00:16:04 ◼   ► could be an area for abuse. But publicly, I feel like we should have the ability to

00:16:08 ◼   ► publicly respond to a bad review. Because a lot of times the bad review is not valid,

00:16:15 ◼   ► or is unfair, or is inflammatory, or it's some other problem that doesn't qualify

00:16:21 ◼   ► it for removal by Apple necessarily, but that is not really a fair representation. So it

00:16:27 ◼   ► nice as a developer to be able to respond to those so that when people look at it, they

00:16:31 ◼   ► can see how you responded or if you responded. And I'm saying this, I know it will be more

00:16:35 ◼   ► work for us. Like I'm giving us more homework, but I think that's really important homework.

00:16:39 ◼   ► If they're going to keep having the system and have it be as prominent as it is, then

00:16:43 ◼   ► I think it's a little bit misrepresentative very frequently right now just because of

00:16:48 ◼   ► all the inherent flaws with it. Let's cover our sponsor first before we move on. Our sponsor

00:16:52 ◼   ► this week, a new sponsor of the show, it's called Rollbar. One of the frustrating things

00:16:57 ◼   ► about being a developer is dealing with errors.

00:17:00 ◼   ► Now, you rely on users to report errors,

00:17:03 ◼   ► or you dig through log files trying to debug issues,

00:17:06 ◼   ► or you have a million alerts flooding your inbox,

00:17:08 ◼   ► ruining your day.

00:17:09 ◼   ► With Rollbar's full-stack error monitoring,

00:17:12 ◼   ► you get the context, insights, and control you need

00:17:15 ◼   ► to find and fix bugs faster, all with a lot less noise.

00:17:19 ◼   ► It's easy to install.

00:17:20 ◼   ► You can start tracking production errors

00:17:22 ◼   ► and deployments in eight minutes or less with Rollbar.

00:17:25 ◼   ► Rollbar works with all major languages and frameworks,

00:17:27 ◼   ► including Ruby, Python, JavaScript, PHP, yes,

00:17:31 ◼   ► Node, iOS, Android, and more, so it's web and native apps.

00:17:35 ◼   ► You can integrate Rollbar into your existing workflow,

00:17:37 ◼   ► send error alerts to Slack or HipChat,

00:17:40 ◼   ► or automatically create new issues in GitHub,

00:17:42 ◼   ► JIRA, Pivotal Tracker, et cetera.

00:17:45 ◼   ► Now, they have a special offer

00:17:46 ◼   ► for listeners of Under the Radar.

00:17:47 ◼   ► Go to rollbar.com/undertheradar.

00:17:50 ◼   ► That's rollbar.com/undertheradar.

00:17:52 ◼   ► sign up and get the bootstrap plan for free for 90 days.

00:17:57 ◼   ► So that's basically 300,000 errors tracked for free.

00:18:00 ◼   ► 90 days, rollbar.com/undertheradar.

00:18:04 ◼   ► This is loved by developers at awesome companies

00:18:06 ◼   ► like Heroku, Twilio, Kayak, Instacart,

00:18:08 ◼   ► Zendesk, Twitch, and more.

00:18:09 ◼   ► So give Rollbar a try today.

00:18:11 ◼   ► Go to rollbar.com/undertheradar.

00:18:13 ◼   ► Thanks a lot to Rollbar for sponsoring

00:18:15 ◼   ► Under the Radar and all of Relay FM.

00:18:18 ◼   ► - So the last area that it seems like we couldn't wait

00:18:20 ◼   ► into thinking about a better app store

00:18:22 ◼   ► without discussing would be around business models,

00:18:26 ◼   ► around the things that are perennially topics

00:18:30 ◼   ► that come up for this.

00:18:31 ◼   ► So obviously you have to think about things like trials

00:18:34 ◼   ► or paid updates, those types of questions,

00:18:38 ◼   ► or even just the way that in-app purchase

00:18:40 ◼   ► kind of has become and is are things that I think

00:18:45 ◼   ► there's certainly room for improvement.

00:18:46 ◼   ► Like I remember a couple years ago

00:18:48 ◼   ► when I wrote my big Towards a Better App Store thing,

00:18:50 ◼   ► The thing that I was noticing even back then is this strange thing around trials, the difference

00:18:58 ◼   ► between trials and refunds, where the App Store has this very ambiguous refund policy.

00:19:04 ◼   ► I've gotten refunds for apps that I downloaded and it was totally different than what I actually

00:19:08 ◼   ► expected it to be based on the description I saw on the app page, see our discussion

00:19:12 ◼   ► five minutes ago, and it says, "I applied for a refund and I got it."

00:19:18 ◼   ► Okay, that's great.

00:19:20 ◼   ► But if you go into the App Store, the actual terms and conditions, that massive thing you

00:19:24 ◼   ► sign every time you update anything, deep in there it says that there aren't any refunds.

00:19:30 ◼   ► It's as best I can tell.

00:19:31 ◼   ► And having ambiguity around that in some ways is problematic.

00:19:36 ◼   ► If there are refunds for people who don't like apps they download, then basically you

00:19:40 ◼   ► have trials.

00:19:42 ◼   ► But if you don't make that public or don't make it obvious and easy to do, then it's

00:19:47 ◼   ► not really a trial.

00:19:48 ◼   ► And so I think about things like that.

00:19:49 ◼   ► Like if they really don't want trials, then you don't have any refunds.

00:19:53 ◼   ► But I think they do, and so why don't you make that process more straightforward and

00:19:57 ◼   ► obvious?

00:19:58 ◼   ► Like I love the thought, and I know this is what a couple of other app stores do, you

00:20:02 ◼   ► download an app and if you delete it within a certain period of time, you get a refund

00:20:09 ◼   ► for it.

00:20:10 ◼   ► As though it has this built-in trial mode.

00:20:12 ◼   ► And the duration for that, in many ways, to me, like I don't really mind too much exactly

00:20:17 ◼   ► what that is.

00:20:18 ◼   ► could probably be fairly short and I'd be happy.

00:20:20 ◼   ► It could be fairly long and I'd be happy.

00:20:22 ◼   ► I mean, maybe developers can choose that,

00:20:25 ◼   ► which might be even better.

00:20:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, I think ultimately,

00:20:27 ◼   ► I think it has to be optional because there are so many

00:20:30 ◼   ► abuses of those systems for those doings.

00:20:31 ◼   ► I think Windows Phone was the one that was the big one

00:20:34 ◼   ► where you'd try to, you'd basically have a large incentive

00:20:39 ◼   ► to get all the value you could out of an app

00:20:41 ◼   ► within a short period of time

00:20:42 ◼   ► and then delete it and claim a refund.

00:20:44 ◼   ► So for things like games, it was especially problematic

00:20:46 ◼   ► where you'd just try to beat the whole game

00:20:47 ◼   ► in like 24 hours and then all right, delete it,

00:20:50 ◼   ► I want a refund.

00:20:52 ◼   ► And so that kind of system being applied without choice

00:20:55 ◼   ► to everybody is obviously not good.

00:20:58 ◼   ► But it'd be great to have that as an option

00:20:59 ◼   ► that you could opt into.

00:21:01 ◼   ► And especially if you could even set the duration

00:21:03 ◼   ► 'cause then yeah, that is free trials

00:21:05 ◼   ► if it happens automatically at least.

00:21:06 ◼   ► And so that is, you know, I think with looking at things

00:21:11 ◼   ► like trials and upgrades, which we'll get to in a second,

00:21:13 ◼   ► I think, this won't solve the problems I mentioned

00:21:17 ◼   ► last week about just there being way too many apps

00:21:21 ◼   ► in the store and just there being tons of competition.

00:21:23 ◼   ► It won't solve that problem, but it will make it easier

00:21:26 ◼   ► for the apps that can get some kind of attention

00:21:30 ◼   ► towards them to both get new customers or new users

00:21:34 ◼   ► and then to stay healthy, to sustain the business.

00:21:37 ◼   ► Because I think if you look at the App Store,

00:21:39 ◼   ► one of the biggest problems it has,

00:21:41 ◼   ► and this is something Apple should care about

00:21:43 ◼   ► because it's affecting their product lines,

00:21:45 ◼   ► is there are so many formerly great apps

00:21:48 ◼   ► that have just fallen into disrepair

00:21:50 ◼   ► and are no longer being maintained

00:21:51 ◼   ► because the developers just couldn't make

00:21:53 ◼   ► sustainable revenue from them enough

00:21:55 ◼   ► to justify ongoing maintenance and ongoing expansion.

00:21:58 ◼   ► So then you have issues like Apple launches the iPad Pro

00:22:01 ◼   ► and a ton of iPad apps are not ever updated for it.

00:22:05 ◼   ► And then that might hurt sales of the iPad Pro.

00:22:08 ◼   ► So this is something like Apple should care

00:22:10 ◼   ► about these kinds of things

00:22:11 ◼   ► because those are really hurting them.

00:22:14 ◼   ► So the question is, are they doing everything

00:22:17 ◼   ► in their power to ensure that developers have the tools

00:22:22 ◼   ► they need and the methods that they need

00:22:26 ◼   ► to build sustainable businesses to keep their apps

00:22:30 ◼   ► and the app store and the platform healthy enough?

00:22:33 ◼   ► And I think the answer for that so far is obviously no.

00:22:36 ◼   ► There's lots Apple could do that they're not only not doing

00:22:39 ◼   ► but that it seems like they've never even tried

00:22:41 ◼   ► or don't think they need to try.

00:22:43 ◼   ► And of course, trials and upgrades,

00:22:44 ◼   ► I think are the two big examples of that.

00:22:46 ◼   ► And you can kind of simulate trials and upgrades

00:22:49 ◼   ► through various app store hoops to jump through.

00:22:51 ◼   ► You can kind of do it within app purchase to some degree,

00:22:54 ◼   ► but there's a lot of restrictions around it,

00:22:56 ◼   ► and a lot of things that don't work very well

00:22:57 ◼   ► if you try to do it that way,

00:22:59 ◼   ► and a lot of ways that customers can get really mad at you

00:23:01 ◼   ► and give a whole bunch of one-star reviews,

00:23:03 ◼   ► like if you try to do a paid app upgrade

00:23:04 ◼   ► by just having a second app and you replace the first app,

00:23:07 ◼   ► like that's a quick way to get

00:23:08 ◼   ► a whole bunch of people to hate you.

00:23:09 ◼   ► And so I feel like if Apple implemented these things

00:23:14 ◼   ► as first class citizens, these actual,

00:23:17 ◼   ► well-functioning trials and upgrades,

00:23:19 ◼   ► they'd be way better for the customers

00:23:21 ◼   ► and for the developers, and so we'd have more of them

00:23:24 ◼   ► so we could have better apps,

00:23:26 ◼   ► 'cause we'd have more ways to make sustainable income.

00:23:28 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I think the reality is,

00:23:30 ◼   ► the thing is, just like we were saying around,

00:23:34 ◼   ► we just wanna see change here.

00:23:36 ◼   ► I can't imagine that the business model

00:23:39 ◼   ► that the App Store was conceived of all those years ago,

00:23:42 ◼   ► and still makes the most sense now.

00:23:46 ◼   ► And so yeah, I'd love to see even--

00:23:48 ◼   ► I could see any system they have,

00:23:51 ◼   ► I could imagine there being a reluctance

00:23:53 ◼   ► to do it because of the possibility for abuse,

00:23:55 ◼   ► for example.

00:23:57 ◼   ► But it's not like the current system, which is essentially

00:24:00 ◼   ► in-app purchase driven, is devoid of abuse or opportunity

00:24:04 ◼   ► for abuse.

00:24:06 ◼   ► And so yeah, it would be very interesting

00:24:08 ◼   ► to be able to do things like proper paid upgrades or having trials that are time limited or

00:24:15 ◼   ► those types of opportunities. Because I think the thing that it also speaks to is there

00:24:22 ◼   ► are different--it seems like from my experience, it seems like there are different customers

00:24:26 ◼   ► in the app store. There are people who are much more--like, I never download a paid app.

00:24:33 ◼   ► I've never paid for an app in my life. I only ever download free apps. There are some people

00:24:37 ◼   ► that I know and have met, that's their mindset, and that's totally cool. I'm having a problem

00:24:43 ◼   ► if that's the way they see the app store as something that they just want to be there

00:24:48 ◼   ► as a free add-on to their phone. Great. But I think there are also many people who I've

00:24:53 ◼   ► met who view the who are delighted to pay for apps, who would prefer if they are presented

00:25:00 ◼   ► with a free or a paid option for something that seems somewhat equivalent, they'll take

00:25:04 ◼   ► the paid one, both because they like the concept of supporting the person who makes it more

00:25:11 ◼   ► directly, maybe they feel like it'll be better supported down the road, they like to feel

00:25:15 ◼   ► like they paid for something, they don't like ads, whatever it is, they have reasons for

00:25:18 ◼   ► doing that. And creating tools for developers to capitalize on those people is in a good

00:25:28 ◼   ► way, not like capitalizing on them sounds like kind of skeevy, but if your customers

00:25:34 ◼   ► are looking and willing to pay for a big upgrade to the software that they've been using for

00:25:40 ◼   ► a year, having a mechanism to do that that isn't going to annoy them seems like a good

00:25:45 ◼   ► thing.

00:25:46 ◼   ► And it isn't going to hurt the people who like free apps and only want free apps if

00:25:50 ◼   ► if paid apps can have paid updates or things of that kind,

00:25:55 ◼   ► because they're just totally different markets.

00:25:59 ◼   ► And so giving developers tools to do that

00:26:01 ◼   ► seems like a good way to make sure

00:26:03 ◼   ► that they're taking advantage of every opportunity

00:26:05 ◼   ► they have for revenue, because revenue's so hard

00:26:08 ◼   ► to get in the first place that giving us more options

00:26:11 ◼   ► and choices seems like it'd only be a good thing.

00:26:13 ◼   ► - Well, and part of the power of the App Store

00:26:15 ◼   ► when it first launched, and part of the power it still has,

00:26:17 ◼   ► is before the App Store, everything was just

00:26:20 ◼   ► web-based and paying for things on the web sucked so much

00:26:23 ◼   ► that it was just really hard to ever get someone

00:26:25 ◼   ► to pay for something on the web because they would have

00:26:27 ◼   ► to jump through all these hoops of entering

00:26:28 ◼   ► their payment information and it was just this clunky

00:26:30 ◼   ► process, most people would just say,

00:26:31 ◼   ► ah, nevermind, they'd abandon it.

00:26:33 ◼   ► Whereas with the App Store, they had the credit card

00:26:35 ◼   ► already on file from the iTunes store and they could just

00:26:38 ◼   ► type in a password and bam, it's bought.

00:26:40 ◼   ► Now it's even easier with Touch ID.

00:26:42 ◼   ► So part of the, we've seen already that if you make it

00:26:45 ◼   ► easy to pay for it, people are more likely and more

00:26:48 ◼   ► willing and happier to pay.

00:26:50 ◼   ► Not everybody will, but more people will.

00:26:53 ◼   ► So if they, you know, right now we have all these methods

00:26:55 ◼   ► of making, of trying to use in-app purchase

00:26:57 ◼   ► or swapping, you know, a new app for an old one

00:27:00 ◼   ► to try to kind of simulate trials and upgrades,

00:27:03 ◼   ► but they're all worse than the way it would probably be

00:27:06 ◼   ► if Apple built those in as first-class citizens.

00:27:09 ◼   ► So I think we would actually get more money.

00:27:12 ◼   ► We would actually do better, and customers and developers

00:27:14 ◼   ► would all be happier if Apple did these things

00:27:18 ◼   ► because we could make more because it would be easier

00:27:21 ◼   ► and it would work better.

00:27:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, and ultimately I think customers,

00:27:24 ◼   ► like ultimately, it seems like you can ultimately

00:27:28 ◼   ► hopefully wind anything Apple-related

00:27:30 ◼   ► back to customer sat, right?

00:27:33 ◼   ► Like that is ultimately the thing that seems to drive

00:27:35 ◼   ► a lot of other, the way Apple thinks.

00:27:38 ◼   ► And customer satisfaction is something

00:27:41 ◼   ► that you could see a lot, like improving the tools around

00:27:45 ◼   ► the business models that are available to developers, improving. That if you create

00:27:51 ◼   ► opportunities for a developer to make a good, stable living, their apps are going to be

00:27:57 ◼   ► updated more regularly. It's sort of like you were saying, when new platforms come out,

00:28:01 ◼   ► people will adopt them. That's only good for developers, that's only good for customers.

00:28:08 ◼   ► And if it doesn't work, maybe they'd try all these things and in the end it wasn't the

00:28:12 ◼   ► answer. I'm not completely convinced that adding paid upgrades would somehow dramatically

00:28:18 ◼   ► and catastrophically improve things for a developer, sustainability. I think there's

00:28:23 ◼   ► a good chance it would help things. Maybe it won't. But trying seems like a way that

00:28:30 ◼   ► having never tried or just saying like, "Hmm, maybe that would work, maybe it won't. If

00:28:34 ◼   ► it's not for sure, let's not do it." That's not helping anybody. And that's where I hope.

00:28:39 ◼   ► feel as if whoever hears this or is sitting down, running up to W2DC and thinking about

00:28:45 ◼   ► things he wants to change in iOS 10, hopefully these are things that they're thinking about.

00:28:50 ◼   ► Thinking about ways that they can make things better for developers, better for customers,

00:28:54 ◼   ► and ultimately, even in their own self-interest, make people have more affinity for their platform.

00:29:01 ◼   ► Because there's an app for that.

00:29:04 ◼   ► one of the marketing campaigns that I think really helped cement the iPhone as what it

00:29:09 ◼   ► is today. And it's all about the apps in that campaign.

00:29:13 ◼   ► Exactly. Well, I hope we see some improvements here. I really do. I'm hopeful that under

00:29:20 ◼   ► new leadership, maybe we will. And I really am looking forward to seeing the results of

00:29:24 ◼   ► that. So that's all the time we have for this week. Thank you very much for listening, and

00:29:29 ◼   ► we'll talk to you next week. Bye.

00:29:30 ◼   ► [BLANK_AUDIO]