57: Secrecy
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Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development.
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I'm Marco Arment.
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And I'm David Smith.
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Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.
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Shh, Marco, can I tell you a secret?
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Are you allowed to?
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Do you sign an NDA?
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I'm working on a new app.
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I'm shocked.
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So today we're going to be talking about secrecy around new apps, which is kind of
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a silly topic in some ways.
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Even your immediate reaction when I ask if I could tell you a secret.
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I feel like it's a topic that a lot of us take -- can sometimes get a bit too in our
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own heads about and kind of overblow the importance of what we're working on and the importance
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of secrecy, but it's definitely something that we think about.
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I'm probably -- I'm hoping, fingers crossed, going to be launching a new app in about two
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And as far as I know, the number of people who aren't like myself and my wife who know
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what I'm working on is maybe a handful of people at this point, and most of those I've
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only told fairly recently.
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So it is something that I am generally fairly secretive of.
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And in some ways I think that's good, and in some ways that's bad, and I think it just
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seemed like a good topic for us to kind of unpack, because it's easy to feel like, A,
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you don't want to share what you're working on because there's the trade secrets kind
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You don't want to let other people know if you have this great idea, if you tell the
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world your idea, there's always that fear that someone else will come along and copy
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it before you do.
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Afterwards, people will inevitably copy you if it's a good idea, but the fear of somebody
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copying you ahead of time.
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I remember there was -- I think it was clear the to-do list manager who did a preview video
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of their app as part of their publicity push, and they published that video.
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And before the app was released, which I think the app was scheduled to be released a week
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later, someone had already cloned the app from the video and submitted it to the app
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store under a similar name, which was remarkable.
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I've forgotten about that.
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But it's something that you want to be thoughtful of, right?
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Like a story like that is a cautionary tale of maybe being secretive is a good thing.
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But on the other side, you also are trying to build buzz and get attention and are trying
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to not -- you don't want to just show up and be like, "Hey, here's this awesome
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thing," but there's no one there listening.
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So you have to find this weird balance between pre-announcing and post-announcing and how
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As I've been thinking about this this week, one thing that came to mind, too, is I thought
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it would be interesting if you could unpack your experience with Overcast, because you
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pre-announced what you were working on quite a while before it actually went out into the
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world, right?
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I mean, it was -- I pre-announced it during a conference talk that I gave at XOXO about
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eight or nine months before it was actually released.
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I didn't intend for it to be that long.
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It took a lot longer than I thought to go from beta to 1.0.
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But -- which is one of the reasons why you generally shouldn't pre-announce any kind
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of dates or anything, which I hadn't done, but I at least pre-announced the product and
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that it was a podcast app.
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But I didn't pre-announce any particular features, and I didn't show any screenshots.
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All I said was that it was a podcast app and it was called Overcast, and that was it.
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And so I think it's generally -- the way I tend to do things is keeping things pretty
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close to the vest about the specifics, things that it would be bad if someone copied.
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So things like screenshots of how things look, things like specific features that are maybe
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brand new that no one's done before or that are non-mainstream features so that it would
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be interesting to know if someone was doing those and somebody might try to beat me to
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it after they hear that I'm doing it, stuff like that.
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And the reality is the market I'm in now with the podcast space, it's a pretty chill market
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of my various competitors, at least the big ones.
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There's tons of small ones, though, that just rip off anything they see in any other app
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and everything.
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It's just like every app market has a lot of competition now, as we've said before.
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And there is definitely a chance that if you preannounce something in a way that gets anybody
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to notice that you will have what happened to Clear with that preview video.
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You will have other people who very quickly whip together exactly what you just preannounced
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and ship it before you do.
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And you see the same thing with physical products on Kickstarter.
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It happens all the time.
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You'll see some amazing, cool, clever new thing on Kickstarter that won't actually ship
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for six to nine months, and then three months later you can go on Amazon and buy basically
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that thing made by some no-name company for less money.
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It's like that happens all the time.
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And so generally I think it's wise not to preannounce specifics and not to show a lot
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of screenshots and videos and stuff like that because of that problem of people copying
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and beating you to the punch.
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That being said, to a large degree that might not matter.
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The damage that is done, if that happens to you, sometimes it can be significant for certain
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products but usually not.
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Usually like, there are a number of other apps in the store that, during my app development
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career there have been a number of times where somebody has released an app that looks and
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works extremely similar to mine.
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Basically these were clones of Instapaper or Overcast or the magazine.
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This has happened for everything I've made.
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Not nursing clock, I haven't really looked, but everything else I've made this has happened
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And it certainly happened with Peace, oh my god, because that was the number one app for
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a day so that got a million clones.
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The fact is most people never hear about people who clone you.
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The people who clone you, they're not going to get any blog posts written about them by
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Mac stories and everything else.
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The press, the features of the app store, these are generally not going to go for the
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clones and not going to talk about them.
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So you don't really have to worry too much most of the time.
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It is a problem in games a lot more often and it is a problem with certain simple mechanic
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So one of the biggest examples of this is Threes and then 2048.
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Where Threes is this beautifully crafted indie game, it comes out, it's a huge hit, it's
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something like three bucks and then within a week or two, it was a really quick time,
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this other game called 2048 comes out that is almost completely a clone of Threes.
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Simpler not as good but basically the same game and it was free and it just took off
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and the game that spread around the world that everyone knew and played was 2048, not
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So that does occasionally go really badly for you when this happens but usually that
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isn't what happens.
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Usually there's clones and they just kind of get ignored and forgotten about and maybe
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a few people get scammed and buy them but for the most part it isn't a big problem.
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So that being said though, I do think it's important to play things relatively close
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to the vest because you don't really gain a lot by spreading things around too early.
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The idea here is you're going to build hype, right?
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The theory is I'm going to release this preview video or screenshot or whatever of my app
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and tease people and I'm going to tease the interest up and it'll be this great teaser
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and then people will sign up for my mailing list I guess.
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The question is suppose you get people's attention with some kind of teaser or preview, then
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What can they do and what will they do at that point for them to actually stay, for
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you to keep their attention for when the product actually launches?
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In many cases the only thing you really can do is follow us on social media or sign up
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for our mailing list and as soon as you put up a wall like that a whole bunch of people
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who see the preview are going to drop off.
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They're not going to complete that call to action that you want them to complete.
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They're not going to add their name to the mailing list.
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They're not going to follow you on social media.
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They would have maybe had more interest if they could have gone to the app store right
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then and downloaded your app right then.
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If there was a link saying not just that this is coming out in two weeks but this is out
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now go get it.
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But instead you had all this attention that came to you and it basically fell on the floor
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because there was nothing for them to get yet.
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It wasn't ready yet.
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And that's a huge risk whenever you're doing any kind of pre-announcement.
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So it's best to focus your pre-launch efforts on press outreach where you can actually send
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bloggers and writers and influential people and YouTubers, you can send them beta builds.
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When the app is ready, it's almost ready to be launched, a week or two earlier you send
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out these beta builds and we've talked about reaching out to the press in tasteful ways
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You send out beta builds like that and get them interested beforehand but then when it's
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broadcast to the world that this app or thing exists, make it ready to go right then.
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So that way when the whole world has a chance to be interested in what you are selling,
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sell it to them.
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Be ready on that day to sell it to them.
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Quote it with a link saying, "Now that you want this thing, go get it in the app store
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right now with this link."
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And to me, doing any kind of massive publicity before you're ready to actually give people
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who are interested that link to go buy the thing, I think is wasted effort or you're
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wasting the attention that you get as a result of it.
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>> Yeah, and I think too it's an interesting distinction between secrecy in the sense that
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if someone else were to find out what you were working on in detail, it would be a problem,
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versus the kind of secrecy that's just not talking about things and not having this sense
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of developing things in the open.
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Because I think like you say, I think of even for myself, I have a very short attention
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span for new and interesting things.
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And the number of times I'll see something and click on it is a small percentage of the
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number of times I see something.
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And even smaller from that is the number of things that I'll actually get from the app
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And if you short circuit that right up front and are showing people things, I mean, you
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obviously can get kind of cute with this, where it isn't so much about trying to drive
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attention to something, you're just kind of talking about this.
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And I did this last week, I was like, I love pushing the big add new app button in iTunes
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You can kind of let people know, like whatever following or audience you have, that hey,
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there's something coming.
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And I think in some ways that's more effective almost with no specifics at all.
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It's just this vague sense of like, huh, there's something coming.
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And so that you're just hoping that when you do then subsequently release something,
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or when you actually start publicizing it, they're like, oh, this is that thing I was
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waiting for.
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And you're increasing the chance that they'll actually do that first level of looking at
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But beyond that, I'm not sure if you actually gain much.
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But on the flip side, like we want to be as communicative and open with press people,
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any contacts or people we have on that side of things.
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Because there's not really anybody, I've heard from people who are reaching out to the press
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and it's like, hey, I have this app that I'd like to show you, here's an NDA, for example.
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That doesn't make it, like that level of secrecy for you're trying to get somebody to pay attention
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to you and then you're putting a barrier up, that doesn't make any sense.
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Yeah, quick tip.
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If anybody ever wants you to sign an NDA to hear their idea, the answer is no.
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Just don't, it's not worth it.
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Because it's just not, it just doesn't, it's just, and the weird thing, especially in that
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situation is that it's not respectful of that person's time.
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Like maybe it sort of can work.
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Like, I mean, obviously, I imagine, you know, when Apple press get pre-release hardware
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from Apple that has an embargo on it, like, fair enough, I imagine they are signing a
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non-disclosure agreement.
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They're not going to talk about it ahead of time.
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Our apps are not that level of product, are not that level of sophistication where something
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like that is likely appropriate.
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Like I want anybody and everybody to be aware.
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And if somebody broke an embargo, and I really have embargoes with my apps, typically reviewers
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only release their reviews of your apps when they're ready to be released.
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But like if somebody released something ahead of time, it's like, okay, like, that's not
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a great, that's not ideal, but mostly just because if anybody reads that article and
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clicks the button at the bottom to go and download it, it won't work.
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Like rather than that, like, it's not a big problem for me in that way.
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And so it is something that I think is good to separate between.
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There's like that's like, the conscious secrecy of like, like, if something, if this were
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to get out, it would be bad versus I'm not going to do any, put any effort into some
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of the most like the passive secrecy, like I'm just going to not promote or talk about
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what I'm releasing and sort of see what happens there.
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- You know, and you're going to hear conflicting advice from this.
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If you ask around, like you're going to hear everybody saying different things about this.
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Your experience may vary here.
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And there's certain contexts in which, you know, going through like the NDA hoops for
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somebody might be worth, like if you're a consultant and you have a, you know, a big
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client, obviously that's a different story.
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But yeah, for the most part, like, you know, jumping through hoops to hear people's secrets
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ahead of time is not worth it.
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And jumping through and trying to hype up your own secrets ahead of time are also generally
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not worth it.
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It's, you know, pretty much anybody can figure out at this point, like if somebody wants
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to learn all of my secrets, all they have to do is like start basically some common
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sense like thought like, okay, what am I working on right now?
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Do you have a guess?
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- Probably Overcast.
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- Yeah, surprise, surprise, I'm working on Overcast.
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And it's been a while since I've had an update to the 2.0 series.
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So what do you think I'm working on?
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- Next big update?
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- Yeah, I'm working on Overcast 3.0.
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- You know what Overcast 3.0's gonna have in it?
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Some new features, some updates to old features.
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Of course, 'cause it's a new version of an app.
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It's like, and it's a podcast app.
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It's not gonna like, you know, all of a sudden launch rockets.
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Like it's like there's a finite number of things that you can expect an app like this
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It's like, again, like most of our updates aren't that interesting.
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And the idea of like hyping up anything ahead of time is like, well, if people wanna know
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the basics, they can already figure that out with just some basic critical thinking.
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And anything else, they don't really need to know ahead of time until there's a link
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that they can just go to the store and buy.
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If I tell you something right now that doesn't really know that blows your mind and you really
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want it, it is way better for me to tell you that when you can actually get 3.0 than for
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me to tell you now and to hope that you still care in however many months it is from now
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when I release this thing.
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It does make me think, I hear, like it makes me think about it if I'm being too cavalier
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with my marketing.
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When I hear, like when I'm hearing our conversation going along and I'm thinking to myself, like
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I think of the people who do the hype, sort of like the splash page with a mailing list
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thing and I'm trying to collect a bunch of people's email addresses so that they can
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send them an email on the day of launch ahead of time and that kind of like more formalized
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marketing plan, which is just something that maybe like if I'm honest, it's like I don't
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feel very good at or comfortable with, like that level of actual like big M marketing
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is kind of intimidating to me and so I don't do it.
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My guess is people do it because it has some impact and certainly from what I've heard,
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that kind of email outreach can be very effective, certainly more effective than something like
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social media outreach or blogging outreach just because email is a bit more directive
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and people are almost certainly going to see it, whether or not they act on it, but like
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people's inboxes where they check, they sort out their email is a more likely place for
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someone to hang out.
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But that's a tricky thing for me to get into 'cause it's like I don't necessarily want
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to go down a road that I'm not going to be able to do a good job on.
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Like doing that kind of more, I don't even know, like full service marketing plan for
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an application, it's like I imagine it would increase my downloads and potentially theoretically
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my revenue down the road, but it's also kind of like an awkward thing if I don't feel like
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I'm going to be able to do well.
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It's sort of like Facebook.
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Like I imagine if I had a Facebook presence for my applications and I was doing things
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there, there would be a benefit, honestly even Twitter.
00:17:16
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I don't really have a professional side of, like a social media outreach for my apps,
00:17:23
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they're just sort of me.
00:17:25
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But I think about something like Facebook especially where I have no presence personally
00:17:29
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really and no presence professionally.
00:17:32
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Like if I just went and created a Facebook page for Podometer++ or for my next app and
00:17:38
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started trying to hype and draw people towards it, it would feel so awkward because I don't
00:17:44
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know what I'm doing.
00:17:45
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And maybe that's a bad thing, like maybe I should be better at that.
00:17:49
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But I guess in my mind, it's like that's the kind of thing you can do if you're a bigger
00:17:55
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team or an organization where you actually have a marketing team and division whose focus
00:18:03
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and job is to do a good job of that and to understand how that works and to understand
00:18:09
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►
the benefits and if they spend a week working on this hype campaign where they're gonna
00:18:17
◼
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trickle things out and try and build buzz or whatever, if it works great, if it doesn't,
00:18:23
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►
That was their job to do.
00:18:24
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Whereas for me, that would be a massive distraction from the actual work of development.
00:18:30
◼
►
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00:19:59
◼
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So for the last part of the show, it seemed like a reasonable thing too for me to make
00:20:03
◼
►
this a bit more specific and talk about the approach I'm taking for the app I'm launching
00:20:10
◼
►
hopefully on.
00:20:11
◼
►
I think my current release goal is like December 21st.
00:20:13
◼
►
You're launching a new app?
00:20:14
◼
►
I'm launching a new app.
00:20:16
◼
►
It's a health and fitness app.
00:20:20
◼
►
Perhaps it's not unlike all the other apps that I've launched in the last two years.
00:20:23
◼
►
Will its name end in plus plus?
00:20:26
◼
►
Oh my God, this is amazing.
00:20:28
◼
►
This is top secret info right here.
00:20:29
◼
►
Breaking underscore rumors right now.
00:20:31
◼
►
This is amazing.
00:20:34
◼
►
See, it's like people think secrets are like this like salacious thing, but like they're
00:20:37
◼
►
not that surprising most of the time.
00:20:39
◼
►
Yeah, if it's an actual secret that would be surprising, then you know, it's like you'll
00:20:45
◼
►
It'll be a big deal.
00:20:47
◼
►
No, but so I'm working on this, you know, this new plus plus health and fitness app.
00:20:51
◼
►
And in general, I haven't talked about it.
00:20:53
◼
►
Most of why I haven't talked about it is because honestly, like I always have in the back of
00:20:57
◼
►
my mind, like maybe this won't actually ship.
00:21:00
◼
►
Maybe this won't, this idea that I have at the beginning that as I'm going along and
00:21:04
◼
►
developing it won't actually turn into something that's shippable.
00:21:07
◼
►
And that's happened before.
00:21:08
◼
►
Yet another reason not to pre-announce things is that when you pre-announce things, you're
00:21:11
◼
►
kind of promising them, you're committing to them.
00:21:14
◼
►
And you will have people who are very upset if you don't release what you pre-announced
00:21:17
◼
►
and at the time you announced it, that it would come out.
00:21:21
◼
►
And I mean, it's like, and even moreover, like I think the bigger thing that I've from
00:21:24
◼
►
my own experience I found is if you pre-announce something too early, like often what has happened
00:21:30
◼
►
where I work on a project, I think it's going to be an app.
00:21:32
◼
►
It turns out it doesn't quite get to the level of where I feel like it's worth releasing.
00:21:38
◼
►
But like a year later or six months later, the kernel of that idea with something new,
00:21:43
◼
►
like some new API, some new platform, something happens that makes it finally a good idea.
00:21:48
◼
►
Like I actually, like for Activity++, which is all about the three activity metrics on
00:21:54
◼
►
the Apple Watch, I actually wrote an app earlier that was before Apple opened up all of the
00:22:01
◼
►
health metrics that did just trying to think it was doing basically the same thing, but
00:22:06
◼
►
only for the ones that were available, which I think was stand and active calories at the
00:22:09
◼
►
time, but I didn't have exercise minutes.
00:22:12
◼
►
At the end, I like, I kind of took that out.
00:22:14
◼
►
So I built the app out and I was like, yeah, this isn't, it just, without having all three,
00:22:18
◼
►
it doesn't really work.
00:22:19
◼
►
So I shelved it and then eventually Apple opened it up and then I could pick that project
00:22:23
◼
►
up and keep working on it.
00:22:24
◼
►
But because I hadn't talked about it at all, it's like I hadn't like ruined the idea or
00:22:30
◼
►
kind of burnt the anticipation or the interest in that until it was ready.
00:22:36
◼
►
And so I don't talk about things typically until I'm confident that I'm going to get
00:22:40
◼
►
And for me, that tipping point is essentially around the point where I would say you're
00:22:44
◼
►
kind of ready to send out a beta.
00:22:47
◼
►
Like at this point, I'm pretty committed to releasing this app.
00:22:51
◼
►
You know, whether or not it'll actually happen in two weeks on December 21st, like we'll
00:22:56
◼
►
have to see.
00:22:57
◼
►
But I, at this point, I do know that like I have something that I think is worth sending
00:23:04
◼
►
out into the world and I'm starting the beta process.
00:23:07
◼
►
And I tend to take an approach for these where I, you know, during development, I will share
00:23:13
◼
►
the idea and the process and the app with, you know, a few people, sort of the close
00:23:19
◼
►
friends and family kind of approach.
00:23:20
◼
►
It's people who either who I talk to on a sort of a more professional level in terms
00:23:26
◼
►
of like, "Hey, here's this screen.
00:23:28
◼
►
What do you think?
00:23:29
◼
►
Does this make sense?"
00:23:30
◼
►
Like, and it's a UI designer, another iOS developer.
00:23:33
◼
►
Like I have friends like this who I can talk to about the low level stuff, or I'll show
00:23:36
◼
►
it to friends and family at a more like just casual level of being like, "Hey, if I showed
00:23:43
◼
►
you this UI, what do you think you would do with it?"
00:23:46
◼
►
To kind of do that kind of very informal user interface testing.
00:23:50
◼
►
But as I get the point to now where it's like, I have something that I think is basically,
00:23:55
◼
►
it's not quite shippable, but it's like functionally complete, it's not polished.
00:23:59
◼
►
At this point, it's like, "Okay, I'll start expanding that out and telling more and more
00:24:04
◼
►
people about the app."
00:24:06
◼
►
And this process, you know, essentially goes, at least the way I do it is I will send out
00:24:11
◼
►
my first rounds of betas to a relatively narrow group.
00:24:17
◼
►
And it's usually the people who, it's not the full like press group of everybody who
00:24:22
◼
►
I would ever want to know about it.
00:24:25
◼
►
It's if you chosen people, typically, there's a few people in the press who I have like,
00:24:31
◼
►
you know, strong personal relationships with who I'll make sure I reach out to.
00:24:35
◼
►
But it's also like in that first level, it's like, I don't want to send something out.
00:24:39
◼
►
And then like, a few days later, get some feedback back that really changes how this
00:24:44
◼
►
is going to be or find some huge, you know, bug.
00:24:47
◼
►
I don't do that in my first round.
00:24:48
◼
►
It's like my first round, I just want to kind of keep small, send it out, get some information
00:24:52
◼
►
back and then probably about a week later after that one, which for me will probably
00:24:56
◼
►
be this Friday or so or next Monday, I'll be sending out like a bigger one and I'll
00:25:02
◼
►
send it out this one out to a big wide group of press of influential people, whatever that
00:25:10
◼
►
This is the kind of everybody who I might want to do and hopefully by doing that two
00:25:15
◼
►
phase thing of not sending in the first one out to everybody, where, you know, it's the
00:25:20
◼
►
first time that the app is kind of getting outside of my control and inevitably you're
00:25:24
◼
►
going to find bugs and problems.
00:25:26
◼
►
And it's like, since I've sent out my first beta, I've had probably about, you know, 20
00:25:30
◼
►
good either like feature changes or bug reports, crashers, whatever it is, like I've gotten
00:25:36
◼
►
a bunch of feedback.
00:25:38
◼
►
And so I can show a much more polished product to the broader audience next week.
00:25:43
◼
►
And then at that point, I'll start like getting ready for the broader release.
00:25:48
◼
►
And I typically like I won't really say what it is and get into specifics kind of like
00:25:52
◼
►
you were talking about earlier, like I won't really get into all the specifics publicly
00:25:56
◼
►
until launch day.
00:25:57
◼
►
And then, you know, sometime hopefully somewhere around on or around the 21st I'll, you know,
00:26:02
◼
►
have a blog post, I'll tweet about it, they'll probably talk about it on the show would be
00:26:07
◼
►
Like anything I can do at that point, and then it's less like the megaphone, but it's
00:26:10
◼
►
this very kind of like, it starts close, it gets slightly bigger.
00:26:15
◼
►
Once I'm confident, it's like, as I get increasingly confident, I'll increasingly open it up.
00:26:19
◼
►
And in a weird way, it's also probably fair to say that some of the best feedback I get
00:26:23
◼
►
is often from people in the press, because they are professionally trained, at least
00:26:30
◼
►
by or at least by experience at tearing apps apart.
00:26:33
◼
►
Like that's what they do.
00:26:34
◼
►
Like they find all the problem problems.
00:26:37
◼
►
They look at it and be like in the review, they're going to say like, this is what I
00:26:39
◼
►
like, this is what I don't like.
00:26:41
◼
►
And you'll get the feedback from them in that early round, hopefully where they'll be like,
00:26:45
◼
►
this is not so good, to let you make it better.
00:26:49
◼
►
- Well, and they also have a lot of experience with a lot more apps than you probably do.
00:26:53
◼
►
Well, maybe not you, 'cause you've made all the apps, but you know, but like, you know,
00:26:57
◼
►
like anybody who I would send, any press person that I would send an Overcast Beta to, they
00:27:02
◼
►
have seen, almost certainly they have seen way more apps than I have.
00:27:06
◼
►
They have used way more apps than I have.
00:27:07
◼
►
They have tried out way more apps than I have.
00:27:09
◼
►
They have probably even tried out more of my competitors than I have and spent more
00:27:12
◼
►
time with them.
00:27:13
◼
►
So like, they're gonna, they'll be able to tell you ahead of time, if they're willing,
00:27:18
◼
►
how basically how your app stacks up.
00:27:21
◼
►
And they will tell you the shortcomings and the, you know, the competitive disadvantages
00:27:24
◼
►
and the competitive advantages.
00:27:25
◼
►
Like you'll be able to get an idea from people who basically review apps for a living, like
00:27:30
◼
►
you'll get an idea pretty quickly from them.
00:27:32
◼
►
So it's incredibly helpful to involve people.
00:27:34
◼
►
But I would say also though, that like, you know, the bigger a beta is, the less you have
00:27:40
◼
►
Like, when, so with Overcast, I did the initial beta with like only trusted friends and trusted
00:27:46
◼
►
press people.
00:27:48
◼
►
With later versions that are just, that are mostly just like bug fix updates, I have done
00:27:51
◼
►
basically a public beta where I'd let anybody sign up for the beta and just open it up to
00:27:56
◼
►
like a thousand people.
00:27:57
◼
►
And you basically have no secrecy for the latter.
00:28:00
◼
►
Like that's basically a public release at that point.
00:28:02
◼
►
So like 3.0 is not gonna have that kind of beta.
00:28:05
◼
►
It's gonna have more the first time, it's just gonna be private friends because I do
00:28:10
◼
►
wanna maintain secrecy for what I'm changing and adding in 3.0.
00:28:14
◼
►
But you know, it's really up to, you know, your goals and what you're looking to get
00:28:17
◼
►
out of the beta and how important the secrecy ends up being to you.
00:28:20
◼
►
- Yeah, and I suppose there is just at the end of it, it's just, I try to hold, like
00:28:27
◼
►
as I look back on my career, I think in the earlier days, I thought of my apps as more
00:28:32
◼
►
precious then than I do now.
00:28:35
◼
►
That you kind of, it's good to have a bit of perspective about how important some of
00:28:41
◼
►
these details are.
00:28:43
◼
►
And like that, you know, that you, so easy to get in your own head and like, wow, this
00:28:47
◼
►
app is gonna change everything.
00:28:48
◼
►
It's gonna be amazing.
00:28:49
◼
►
It's gonna be revolutionary.
00:28:51
◼
►
And you kind of over-hype it in your brain and you get too worried about some of these
00:28:55
◼
►
details of like who to tell, who not to tell, whether you should do it.
00:28:58
◼
►
It's like at the end of the day, probably just relax.
00:29:01
◼
►
Like do what makes sense and feels comfortable for you.
00:29:03
◼
►
Be authentic about that and it'll probably work out.
00:29:08
◼
►
All right, thanks for listening everybody and we will talk to you next week.
00:29:13
◼
►
[BLANK_AUDIO]