Under the Radar

00:00:00 ◼   ► So at least, that's David Mardar.

00:00:02 ◼   ► [APPLAUSE]

00:00:06 ◼   ► Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app

00:00:12 ◼   ► development.

00:00:13 ◼   ► I'm Marco Arment.

00:00:14 ◼   ► And I'm David Smith.

00:00:15 ◼   ► Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes,

00:00:17 ◼   ► so let's get started.

00:00:19 ◼   ► So this is a first time for us.

00:00:20 ◼   ► We are in a room with other people who are looking at us,

00:00:25 ◼   ► I think, which is a little bit intimidating.

00:00:28 ◼   ► But I'm sure we'll make our way through and doing a live show

00:00:32 ◼   ► with a hard time cap just for added extra difficulty,

00:00:36 ◼   ► just for fun.

00:00:37 ◼   ► But yeah, it's an exciting week.

00:00:39 ◼   ► It's WWDC week.

00:00:40 ◼   ► And it is an interesting year.

00:00:44 ◼   ► This is having been at WWDC since 2009.

00:00:48 ◼   ► That was my first year.

00:00:50 ◼   ► And every year, there's sort of a different theme

00:00:52 ◼   ► or a different flavor to the show.

00:00:54 ◼   ► And I think when I was trying to listen for it,

00:00:57 ◼   ► I think the phrase that Apple used many times to indicate

00:01:01 ◼   ► what the theme was this year was technology and refinements.

00:01:05 ◼   ► That in general, what they were doing

00:01:08 ◼   ► were either introducing new technologies, all

00:01:11 ◼   ► of their machine learning stuff or that type of thing,

00:01:15 ◼   ► or it's a lot of refinements.

00:01:16 ◼   ► It's lots of little things.

00:01:19 ◼   ► And in some ways, I like that as a developer.

00:01:22 ◼   ► It's not one of these years where

00:01:24 ◼   ► there is this overwhelming sense of there

00:01:27 ◼   ► goes my summer, I'll never see my children again,

00:01:30 ◼   ► all these terrible things.

00:01:31 ◼   ► It's a summer where it's like, OK, I've got work to do.

00:01:34 ◼   ► There's stuff to be done.

00:01:35 ◼   ► But overall, unless you're in an area where

00:01:39 ◼   ► one of these brand new, totally new technology

00:01:43 ◼   ► is relevant for you, you're just going to be tweaking stuff,

00:01:47 ◼   ► making things a little bit better, which

00:01:50 ◼   ► is nice in some ways.

00:01:51 ◼   ► And maybe it's nice to have a year off from just

00:01:56 ◼   ► this crazy sprint or this whole new platform or anything

00:01:59 ◼   ► like that, because especially even some of the side platforms

00:02:02 ◼   ► got almost no changes at all.

00:02:05 ◼   ► So it's like, OK, I don't need to worry about that.

00:02:07 ◼   ► I can just do some basic changes to get going.

00:02:11 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, every year when we have this happen to us,

00:02:16 ◼   ► this keynote thing, every year, it's

00:02:18 ◼   ► a question mark of how much work we'll have in the summertime,

00:02:21 ◼   ► as you said.

00:02:22 ◼   ► And as the App Store and as these platforms

00:02:25 ◼   ► have gotten more and more mature,

00:02:28 ◼   ► the advances have gotten more and more specialized.

00:02:31 ◼   ► You see things being added every year

00:02:34 ◼   ► that only make sense for a narrow subset of app types.

00:02:37 ◼   ► And if your app happens to be one of those things,

00:02:39 ◼   ► then you have new things you can do.

00:02:42 ◼   ► And as time goes on, more and more of the advances

00:02:45 ◼   ► are of that type, rather than things that we all

00:02:48 ◼   ► have to now suddenly deal with.

00:02:50 ◼   ► Like when the big iOS 7 redesign, that's like, wow,

00:02:52 ◼   ► everyone has to deal with that.

00:02:53 ◼   ► Or when major features to the OS were

00:02:55 ◼   ► still being added on a regular basis,

00:02:58 ◼   ► things like notifications.

00:03:00 ◼   ► That was things that we all really had things to do about

00:03:03 ◼   ► and had potential new things for our apps to do

00:03:06 ◼   ► and major new areas of markets that would open up.

00:03:09 ◼   ► And that just really hasn't happened a lot recently,

00:03:11 ◼   ► because these platforms are maturing.

00:03:12 ◼   ► That type of innovation just is slowing down by necessity,

00:03:16 ◼   ► because these things are getting more and more just mature

00:03:18 ◼   ► and better around it.

00:03:19 ◼   ► So as you mentioned, I think it's worth pointing out

00:03:22 ◼   ► basically, I think if your app runs on the watch, the TV,

00:03:26 ◼   ► or in messages, I don't think you have much to do.

00:03:30 ◼   ► I think you kind of get a vacation summer.

00:03:32 ◼   ► If you were waiting on a particular Siri kit

00:03:38 ◼   ► intent that didn't exist last year,

00:03:40 ◼   ► you still probably don't have much to do,

00:03:42 ◼   ► because there weren't that many added.

00:03:44 ◼   ► My summer is much more free than I thought it would be.

00:03:47 ◼   ► Maybe you can make a new app.

00:03:50 ◼   ► I hear it's really fun.

00:03:52 ◼   ► Let me tell you.

00:03:53 ◼   ► I have a lot of experience.

00:03:54 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:03:57 ◼   ► I was hoping for the audio Siri kit intent,

00:04:00 ◼   ► and that didn't come.

00:04:01 ◼   ► And maybe I'll get it next year.

00:04:03 ◼   ► Maybe not.

00:04:03 ◼   ► Who knows?

00:04:05 ◼   ► And I was also expecting a large redesign of iOS,

00:04:09 ◼   ► or at least a moderate scale redesign.

00:04:12 ◼   ► And I think what we got was more along the lines of the iOS 6

00:04:17 ◼   ► redesign.

00:04:18 ◼   ► Most people don't remember, but iOS 5 to 6,

00:04:20 ◼   ► like 6 actually did step back a lot of that screw morphism,

00:04:23 ◼   ► and it was like a half step of a redesign.

00:04:26 ◼   ► And I think we got a similar scale redesign with this.

00:04:29 ◼   ► So we now have those new giant header text bars

00:04:33 ◼   ► that I honestly am not a big fan of right now,

00:04:35 ◼   ► but maybe I'll get used to them.

00:04:38 ◼   ► And it's kind of unclear as to whether we all

00:04:41 ◼   ► should redesign our apps like this or not.

00:04:43 ◼   ► Sometimes when Apple does UI Chrome changes,

00:04:47 ◼   ► sometimes it only ends up being important for Apple's apps.

00:04:51 ◼   ► There are certain UI conventions that you see them

00:04:54 ◼   ► and you think, oh, that's a system app.

00:04:56 ◼   ► And back in the olden days, it was a design goal,

00:05:00 ◼   ► considered a good design, to try to make your app look

00:05:03 ◼   ► like the system apps.

00:05:04 ◼   ► But I think the window of time where that was true

00:05:06 ◼   ► is fairly short.

00:05:08 ◼   ► And quickly after that, it became more trendy

00:05:12 ◼   ► to have your own identity, your own visual design.

00:05:15 ◼   ► And designers kind of started taking over the world.

00:05:18 ◼   ► And really, it became better design or better respected

00:05:23 ◼   ► design to not use the system stock stuff

00:05:27 ◼   ► or to use it very loosely and to really heavily style

00:05:30 ◼   ► it your own way.

00:05:31 ◼   ► So if you design your app now to use this new big H2 style,

00:05:37 ◼   ► big unstyled header taking up half the top of the screen,

00:05:41 ◼   ► if you do that with your apps, it

00:05:43 ◼   ► might end up being considered good design.

00:05:45 ◼   ► It might look weird if you don't adopt that six months from now.

00:05:49 ◼   ► But it also might just be that's how the boring system

00:05:51 ◼   ► apps look, and it'd be weird if your app looks like that.

00:05:53 ◼   ► We don't really know yet, but I would

00:05:55 ◼   ► say the scale of the redesign that we have

00:05:57 ◼   ► is not really something that forces us all to immediately

00:06:02 ◼   ► start taking action with our own designs

00:06:03 ◼   ► to try to get close to it.

00:06:05 ◼   ► No, and I think, too, when I see a change like that,

00:06:08 ◼   ► I always try and think of what is Apple trying

00:06:11 ◼   ► to point us towards.

00:06:14 ◼   ► And in many ways, I think that particular design, you like it

00:06:18 ◼   ► or you don't like it, but it seems

00:06:20 ◼   ► like they are de-emphasizing information density

00:06:24 ◼   ► and saying that, well, essentially vertical real estate

00:06:28 ◼   ► on the screen is not at a premium anymore,

00:06:32 ◼   ► that you can just essentially throw away

00:06:34 ◼   ► the top 10% of the screen, which is what this new navigation

00:06:40 ◼   ► bar looks like, and that's fine, which maybe is indicative

00:06:43 ◼   ► that taller screens are coming, or just in general,

00:06:46 ◼   ► there's sort of this emphasis towards let's smush things down

00:06:50 ◼   ► and take advantage of the size of the screen in that way.

00:06:55 ◼   ► So maybe even if it's not necessarily adopting

00:06:57 ◼   ► what Apple is doing, it's just saying

00:06:59 ◼   ► that's the direction that they're leading towards.

00:07:01 ◼   ► Because I think in many ways at WWDC,

00:07:03 ◼   ► one of the fun games I try and play

00:07:05 ◼   ► is the like, what are they not saying,

00:07:08 ◼   ► but they're kind of saying?

00:07:10 ◼   ► Because usually there's these clues and these hints

00:07:13 ◼   ► that they're kind of poking towards that are,

00:07:17 ◼   ► well, in retrospect, either with new hardware

00:07:20 ◼   ► or even just next year at WWDC will make more sense,

00:07:23 ◼   ► these little things that they're pointing to.

00:07:25 ◼   ► So that's something that I think about when

00:07:28 ◼   ► I see these sort of subtle design things,

00:07:30 ◼   ► and there seems to be an emphasis on dynamic type

00:07:32 ◼   ► this year, which is, again, all about in some ways

00:07:35 ◼   ► being less specific about information density.

00:07:39 ◼   ► That it's like making your app cool when it has gigantic fonts.

00:07:44 ◼   ► That's A, it's a good accessibility feature,

00:07:46 ◼   ► but it seems like just in general they're

00:07:48 ◼   ► trying to move away from that kind of a very dense display.

00:07:53 ◼   ► Yeah, and they're doing that in these apps,

00:07:57 ◼   ► in the system apps and everything.

00:07:58 ◼   ► And we can speculate that probably

00:08:00 ◼   ► is because of maybe some bigger, taller screen

00:08:02 ◼   ► phone coming this fall, as all the rumor things have pointed

00:08:04 ◼   ► out.

00:08:05 ◼   ► But there's also a huge install base of phones

00:08:08 ◼   ► where that might not look good on.

00:08:10 ◼   ► The SE is selling really well.

00:08:12 ◼   ► I don't know, like my metrics on my app--

00:08:14 ◼   ► and granted, it's a podcast app listened to mostly by nerds,

00:08:17 ◼   ► so it's not going to be representative

00:08:19 ◼   ► of the entire market.

00:08:20 ◼   ► But my app is basically split like 45, 45,

00:08:24 ◼   ► 10 between the three screen sizes of phones right now.

00:08:27 ◼   ► It's really like a lot of people using the plus phone.

00:08:31 ◼   ► A lot of people are using the seven size phone.

00:08:34 ◼   ► But then also 10% or so are using the SE size phone.

00:08:37 ◼   ► And that's not a small number.

00:08:41 ◼   ► I can't make the interface terrible or unusable

00:08:44 ◼   ► or suck for that 10%.

00:08:47 ◼   ► And that 10% is not going down.

00:08:50 ◼   ► When the SE came out, it kind of boosted and leveled

00:08:53 ◼   ► that number.

00:08:54 ◼   ► And so we can't just say, oh, our designs

00:08:58 ◼   ► have to look good on the phone that comes out this fall that

00:09:01 ◼   ► might have a weirdly tall screen.

00:09:03 ◼   ► It also has to look good on everything else.

00:09:05 ◼   ► So it's a fairly aggressive new design philosophy

00:09:08 ◼   ► that we might pragmatically not want to take.

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00:10:47 ◼   ► So as cool as all the actual technologies and APIs

00:10:51 ◼   ► and SDKs are, the thing that in many ways

00:10:52 ◼   ► I think I was most excited about is the new App Store app.

00:10:57 ◼   ► To me, that's a huge question mark.

00:11:00 ◼   ► I'm excited that it's changed.

00:11:02 ◼   ► I'm slightly terrified as well by the change.

00:11:06 ◼   ► But I'm excited that it is changing.

00:11:07 ◼   ► Yeah, any change to the App Store should terrify all of us.

00:11:10 ◼   ► Because it basically means that whatever our business is now,

00:11:14 ◼   ► however the App Store is serving us now,

00:11:16 ◼   ► it's probably going to change dramatically this fall.

00:11:18 ◼   ► We don't know in which direction.

00:11:20 ◼   ► If they change the search algorithms,

00:11:22 ◼   ► that can make a huge difference for a lot of us,

00:11:24 ◼   ► of what our sales are.

00:11:26 ◼   ► If they change things like what a feature is worth,

00:11:29 ◼   ► which they have here.

00:11:32 ◼   ► The new App Store has a much lower information density.

00:11:36 ◼   ► As you mentioned earlier with info density,

00:11:38 ◼   ► it's a much lower information density.

00:11:40 ◼   ► And they've kind of been going towards this

00:11:42 ◼   ► in the recent search redesigns and everything

00:11:44 ◼   ► in the last couple of years.

00:11:46 ◼   ► But now, the whole store is like that,

00:11:47 ◼   ► where you basically have giant screen-filling cards for apps.

00:11:52 ◼   ► And so there's no more big list screens

00:11:55 ◼   ► where you get a million of them on screen at once.

00:11:57 ◼   ► So basically, the number of featured spots

00:12:01 ◼   ► appears to have decreased dramatically.

00:12:03 ◼   ► But each one is now worth a lot more.

00:12:05 ◼   ► And I don't know whether they're going to have different levels,

00:12:08 ◼   ► like subdirectory levels inside of it,

00:12:10 ◼   ► that are more high density or whatever.

00:12:12 ◼   ► But the main App Store features are now very, very few,

00:12:17 ◼   ► but very valuable.

00:12:18 ◼   ► And so if you get one, that's probably awesome.

00:12:22 ◼   ► But I think your chances of getting one are now reduced.

00:12:24 ◼   ► So it's kind of a--

00:12:26 ◼   ► I don't know what to think yet about it.

00:12:28 ◼   ► They're changing more often.

00:12:30 ◼   ► They're going to be every day instead of every Thursday

00:12:32 ◼   ► that they've been updating some of the other editorial

00:12:34 ◼   ► sections.

00:12:35 ◼   ► So that's nice for a lot.

00:12:36 ◼   ► But how many of us are ever going

00:12:37 ◼   ► to get one of those feature blocks?

00:12:39 ◼   ► It seems like it's an interesting change.

00:12:43 ◼   ► I'm glad they're changing it.

00:12:44 ◼   ► But if I had to guess, I'm not sure it's

00:12:47 ◼   ► going to benefit most people.

00:12:50 ◼   ► When I see it, though, what I like

00:12:52 ◼   ► is that it changes my goal for what the App Store--

00:12:58 ◼   ► my App Store page, my App Store presence in a way

00:13:01 ◼   ► that I find slightly motivating, I guess.

00:13:04 ◼   ► My goal is now to--

00:13:06 ◼   ► I would say recently, for maybe the last couple of years,

00:13:09 ◼   ► I have cared less about being featured,

00:13:11 ◼   ► because the way the App Store is now,

00:13:14 ◼   ► it doesn't actually have a huge impact on downloads.

00:13:18 ◼   ► It's nice emotionally.

00:13:21 ◼   ► If I get featured, it feels really good, and that's awesome.

00:13:24 ◼   ► Hooray.

00:13:25 ◼   ► But in my experience, it's actually a fairly minor impact

00:13:29 ◼   ► on downloads, which is, I think, largely

00:13:32 ◼   ► to do just with the way that you go to the Feature tab right now

00:13:35 ◼   ► and you'll probably see there's at least 20,

00:13:39 ◼   ► 30 apps on that screen at once.

00:13:42 ◼   ► And so if you're one of those, that's not nearly as impactful.

00:13:46 ◼   ► And when I see this, it's kind of nice

00:13:49 ◼   ► that now instead, if you are the app of the day--

00:13:54 ◼   ► and it's nice, too.

00:13:55 ◼   ► Like, well, you said it's going to be hard to get it.

00:13:58 ◼   ► There are still 365 of those a year.

00:14:00 ◼   ► And in different countries, too.

00:14:02 ◼   ► It's not going to be just one a day.

00:14:03 ◼   ► It's going to be probably one per country or territory

00:14:06 ◼   ► per day.

00:14:07 ◼   ► And if you are that app, if you win that lottery,

00:14:10 ◼   ► you are doing--

00:14:12 ◼   ► I imagine that will have a substantial impact,

00:14:14 ◼   ► that if the Home tab of the App Store app

00:14:17 ◼   ► has a giant full screen ad for your app,

00:14:21 ◼   ► either your app is really bad or you're

00:14:24 ◼   ► going to have a good day.

00:14:25 ◼   ► And so I'm really excited about that as a goal

00:14:29 ◼   ► and as a motivation.

00:14:30 ◼   ► And it's nice to have this now in the back of my mind

00:14:33 ◼   ► that my goal is to do things that will get me onto that tab.

00:14:38 ◼   ► And I can do things that are within my control

00:14:40 ◼   ► to make that happen.

00:14:42 ◼   ► And getting-- it's nice that I feel like it will actually

00:14:45 ◼   ► have an impact.

00:14:47 ◼   ► It is going to, I think, though, be a very much a rich get richer

00:14:49 ◼   ► and a poor get poorer kind of a situation.

00:14:52 ◼   ► I've been playing with it a little bit on the beta.

00:14:55 ◼   ► And if you don't--

00:14:59 ◼   ► like, the search area is still--

00:15:00 ◼   ► I mean, the search area, too, is much less dense

00:15:02 ◼   ► than it used to be.

00:15:03 ◼   ► But the actual-- the new Apps tab is very, very focused

00:15:10 ◼   ► on just the very, very top stuff.

00:15:12 ◼   ► And if you're not one of those apps--

00:15:13 ◼   ► if you're not the-- in some ways, they took the top charts.

00:15:16 ◼   ► And rather than being a chart, it basically

00:15:18 ◼   ► just shows the top three apps or the top four apps now.

00:15:22 ◼   ► That's a pretty narrow thing.

00:15:25 ◼   ► The top three apps is probably going

00:15:26 ◼   ► to be Facebook, Instagram, and Snapchat, or something

00:15:29 ◼   ► like that for a long time.

00:15:32 ◼   ► There's no way my app is ever going to break into that area.

00:15:36 ◼   ► But I think more generally, I love the feeling

00:15:40 ◼   ► that over the last year, we've had at least a half dozen

00:15:45 ◼   ► substantial business and App Store improvements that

00:15:50 ◼   ► make me feel, as someone who makes my living in this world,

00:15:53 ◼   ► that this is a lively platform that I can

00:15:58 ◼   ► be learning to get better on.

00:16:02 ◼   ► Because back in the early days of the App Store, in some ways,

00:16:04 ◼   ► it reminds me of those early days where one of the ways

00:16:08 ◼   ► that I remember being able to get my--

00:16:12 ◼   ► when I was trying to stand up my business was

00:16:14 ◼   ► by being a student of the App Store,

00:16:16 ◼   ► by trying to understand how it works,

00:16:18 ◼   ► how I can optimize what I'm doing to work well there.

00:16:22 ◼   ► And now that it's this brand new thing,

00:16:23 ◼   ► it's like that starts all over again.

00:16:26 ◼   ► All the summer, I can try and work on,

00:16:28 ◼   ► what do I need to make my app assets look

00:16:30 ◼   ► like to look really good here?

00:16:33 ◼   ► Now we have auto-playing videos for app previews.

00:16:36 ◼   ► And you can have three app previews rather than one app

00:16:38 ◼   ► preview.

00:16:39 ◼   ► There's all kinds of other information

00:16:41 ◼   ► that we can specify.

00:16:42 ◼   ► We can give our app subtitles and marketing copy.

00:16:45 ◼   ► We can promote in-app purchases from on our app page.

00:16:49 ◼   ► There is so much there that isn't the developer side, that

00:16:52 ◼   ► isn't that kind of thing.

00:16:54 ◼   ► But I think, in some ways, I'm glad that there's

00:16:57 ◼   ► relatively little to do on the technology side this year

00:17:00 ◼   ► that I'm going to expect to be spending most of my summer just

00:17:03 ◼   ► working on those assets, working on trying

00:17:06 ◼   ► to work out how to market in this new App Store,

00:17:09 ◼   ► because it is a very new and different experience.

00:17:13 ◼   ► I mean, in many ways, maybe that's

00:17:15 ◼   ► kind of like a metaphor for what we should be doing pretty much

00:17:19 ◼   ► all the time with our apps now.

00:17:20 ◼   ► Technology is way less important than it's ever

00:17:23 ◼   ► been for most of what we do.

00:17:25 ◼   ► And the marketing side in the App Store,

00:17:28 ◼   ► and getting all that metadata right and good,

00:17:32 ◼   ► and all these new ways--

00:17:34 ◼   ► they added app preview videos before.

00:17:36 ◼   ► Now they're more emphasized, and there's more of them.

00:17:39 ◼   ► And you basically have more in the App Store

00:17:42 ◼   ► that you need to apply reasonable production value to.

00:17:47 ◼   ► In the olden days, it was basically just an icon

00:17:49 ◼   ► and maybe some design inside your app.

00:17:51 ◼   ► But you could get away with not much else.

00:17:53 ◼   ► And now, that's long since been surpassed as the table stakes.

00:17:58 ◼   ► And now you need to consider things like your copy,

00:18:01 ◼   ► although whoever reads it.

00:18:02 ◼   ► But you need to at least consider your title.

00:18:05 ◼   ► And your screenshots have to be really good.

00:18:07 ◼   ► And as we discussed in the past, people keep shoving more stuff

00:18:11 ◼   ► into screenshots.

00:18:12 ◼   ► It isn't just a screenshot.

00:18:13 ◼   ► It's like, oh, here's a fake phone

00:18:14 ◼   ► spanning over the two frames, and big marketing text

00:18:17 ◼   ► above it, and everything.

00:18:18 ◼   ► And so the production value that is required to succeed

00:18:22 ◼   ► in the App Store is going up.

00:18:23 ◼   ► And in some ways, that's going to be a burden.

00:18:25 ◼   ► It's going to be a burden on a lot of us, especially

00:18:27 ◼   ► people who have smaller budgets for that sort of thing

00:18:30 ◼   ► and can't do it themselves with their own skills.

00:18:32 ◼   ► That's going to raise the cost of succeeding in the App Store.

00:18:35 ◼   ► But I think we were already headed in that direction.

00:18:38 ◼   ► And that was already kind of the reality of the market.

00:18:41 ◼   ► So now, we are going to be forced to do that for our apps,

00:18:44 ◼   ► but we already really were.

00:18:46 ◼   ► And if we're willing to put in that extra effort

00:18:48 ◼   ► to do things like get a nice app preview video

00:18:51 ◼   ► and put some effort into really optimizing the way

00:18:54 ◼   ► the new store pages look and the new things we can do on them,

00:18:57 ◼   ► I think we will be rewarded for that.

00:19:00 ◼   ► Overall, that's going to matter more

00:19:01 ◼   ► than if we spend an extra eight hours coding a feature

00:19:04 ◼   ► that not a lot of people are actually

00:19:05 ◼   ► going to use or care about.

00:19:07 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:19:07 ◼   ► And it changes-- it makes me really nervous

00:19:11 ◼   ► to have to make my App Store page super pretty.

00:19:16 ◼   ► But on the flip side, it's like that's an attainable goal.

00:19:19 ◼   ► That is something that I can definitely definitively work

00:19:22 ◼   ► towards and to make happen.

00:19:24 ◼   ► And it's not unreasonable.

00:19:27 ◼   ► In some ways, it's nice when we were

00:19:29 ◼   ► able to get away without that.

00:19:31 ◼   ► But that seems like that is less and less the case.

00:19:34 ◼   ► And we can now reset our reviews.

00:19:38 ◼   ► Yeah, our ratings.

00:19:39 ◼   ► Our ratings whenever we want.

00:19:40 ◼   ► So we finally got that.

00:19:41 ◼   ► That's awesome.

00:19:42 ◼   ► Like years ago, that was on my list

00:19:44 ◼   ► of when I had my 12 things I wanted

00:19:47 ◼   ► to change in the App Store.

00:19:49 ◼   ► That was back then.

00:19:49 ◼   ► And now we finally got it.

00:19:51 ◼   ► And these little changes like that are just super exciting.

00:19:54 ◼   ► As a developer, Apple is clearly trying

00:19:58 ◼   ► to make this more viable for us.

00:20:02 ◼   ► Yeah, and it's-- one thing I wonder about,

00:20:05 ◼   ► like you mentioned before, the value of a feature

00:20:07 ◼   ► seems to have been going down in recent years.

00:20:09 ◼   ► It seems-- I think industry-wide, we've

00:20:11 ◼   ► seen this kind of slowdown of people

00:20:14 ◼   ► willing to just browse for new apps

00:20:16 ◼   ► and just install them easily.

00:20:17 ◼   ► Like the cost per install, if you're

00:20:19 ◼   ► trying to get-- if you're measuring that kind of thing,

00:20:21 ◼   ► has been going up over the last few years.

00:20:23 ◼   ► And I wonder, like, I bet Apple is probably

00:20:26 ◼   ► doing a lot of these changes to the App Store

00:20:28 ◼   ► and the new daily features and cleaning it all up

00:20:29 ◼   ► and everything.

00:20:30 ◼   ► They're trying probably to do this

00:20:31 ◼   ► to increase the number of times that people go to the App Store

00:20:35 ◼   ► just casually.

00:20:36 ◼   ► Like what we used to do in the old days,

00:20:37 ◼   ► like when the App Store was new, and we'd just

00:20:39 ◼   ► like go there when we were bored and just find some new apps

00:20:42 ◼   ► and download them.

00:20:43 ◼   ► And I think a lot of people did that.

00:20:45 ◼   ► And these days, a lot of people don't.

00:20:46 ◼   ► So Apple's obviously trying to push

00:20:48 ◼   ► the market in this direction to go back to doing that.

00:20:51 ◼   ► But it might not succeed.

00:20:52 ◼   ► Like this actually might not happen.

00:20:55 ◼   ► So it's really kind of up in the air.

00:20:56 ◼   ► Putting all this effort into your App Store page

00:20:59 ◼   ► is going to become table stakes.

00:21:01 ◼   ► But we don't know actually how much it'll pay off yet.

00:21:05 ◼   ► Sure.

00:21:05 ◼   ► But I mean, that's always the case.

00:21:06 ◼   ► But the reality is for a year, this is the App Store

00:21:09 ◼   ► that we're going to have to make work for our businesses.

00:21:12 ◼   ► And so it's like one way or the other, this is what we got.

00:21:15 ◼   ► So we just sort of do our best and hang on for the ride.

00:21:19 ◼   ► I did, before we run out of time,

00:21:21 ◼   ► I did want to talk a little bit about the iPad advances.

00:21:24 ◼   ► And not in too many specifics, but basically the iPad--

00:21:28 ◼   ► like every year we try to figure out

00:21:30 ◼   ► like what kind of new apps are now made possible

00:21:33 ◼   ► by whatever they announced.

00:21:36 ◼   ► Not only what additional features

00:21:38 ◼   ► can we add to our existing apps, but what new markets

00:21:40 ◼   ► will now exist.

00:21:41 ◼   ► Because that's often a place where

00:21:43 ◼   ► you can reap good rewards.

00:21:44 ◼   ► And you made a lot of your career off of this, right?

00:21:47 ◼   ► That is my career.

00:21:47 ◼   ► Like going to where new territory has just opened up

00:21:51 ◼   ► and just being the first one there with a decent app.

00:21:54 ◼   ► And you will often reap rewards from that.

00:21:57 ◼   ► It's not guaranteed, but it's often the case.

00:21:59 ◼   ► And there's often fewer people there on day one

00:22:01 ◼   ► than you think there will be.

00:22:03 ◼   ► So what's new this year?

00:22:05 ◼   ► And I think that there's not a whole lot of brand new,

00:22:07 ◼   ► complete areas.

00:22:08 ◼   ► But the iPad redesign and the new productivity

00:22:12 ◼   ► features in the iPad I think will be one of these areas.

00:22:15 ◼   ► The big-- a lot of iPad Pro app makers

00:22:19 ◼   ► have had a hard time making the economics work out.

00:22:22 ◼   ► And the question is not whether you

00:22:25 ◼   ► can't sell software for a good price on the iPad.

00:22:27 ◼   ► I think the question is, are there

00:22:29 ◼   ► enough people doing pro work on the iPad that will be seeking

00:22:34 ◼   ► out an app like yours?

00:22:35 ◼   ► And that to me goes down to how many people are

00:22:38 ◼   ► using the iPad for their work?

00:22:40 ◼   ► And before, it was cumbersome to do a lot of these things.

00:22:44 ◼   ► You could do it, and we know people who do,

00:22:46 ◼   ► but there was a lot of friction.

00:22:48 ◼   ► And now they have reduced a lot of that friction

00:22:50 ◼   ► and really broken down a lot of the barriers

00:22:52 ◼   ► and made a lot of the iPad UI more Mac-like.

00:22:56 ◼   ► And don't say that, but that's really what they did.

00:22:59 ◼   ► And so now I think a lot more people will be doing work

00:23:02 ◼   ► on the iPad than before.

00:23:05 ◼   ► So I think that might create more of a market for iPad Pro

00:23:08 ◼   ► software than we had before.

00:23:10 ◼   ► And it's not to say that you can go in with an iOS level price.

00:23:15 ◼   ► If you're thinking of developing pro software on the Mac

00:23:19 ◼   ► and you sell your pro app on the Mac for $100,

00:23:22 ◼   ► and that succeeds for you, you can't go to the iPad

00:23:24 ◼   ► and sell it for $10 and expect to have the same success.

00:23:28 ◼   ► You're going to have to charge more,

00:23:30 ◼   ► and it's going to have to be worth more for people,

00:23:33 ◼   ► just like on the Mac.

00:23:34 ◼   ► They're making it more Mac-like.

00:23:35 ◼   ► But I do think that's a market that did not

00:23:38 ◼   ► exist very strongly before.

00:23:40 ◼   ► And now I think that's going to be a bigger market,

00:23:43 ◼   ► because the iPad is now such a better tool for getting work

00:23:46 ◼   ► done in a professional capacity, or really, honestly,

00:23:49 ◼   ► any capacity, like email attachments.

00:23:51 ◼   ► Like, it's so much easier now than it was before.

00:23:54 ◼   ► I think there's going to potentially be a bigger

00:23:56 ◼   ► market there than there was.

00:23:58 ◼   ► So maybe the place to be this year

00:24:01 ◼   ► isn't some new extension type that became available

00:24:04 ◼   ► on iOS or something else.

00:24:05 ◼   ► Maybe the place to be this year is boring productivity apps

00:24:07 ◼   ► on the iPad.

00:24:08 ◼   ► Maybe, I mean, the thing that's-- I struggle a little bit.

00:24:13 ◼   ► I'm excited with the iPad changes, because--

00:24:16 ◼   ► and A, I know I have many friends who love the iPad

00:24:20 ◼   ► and are just through the roof about this.

00:24:23 ◼   ► I was sitting next to Federico Vittucci during the keynote,

00:24:26 ◼   ► and there was a glow coming off of him for the entire show,

00:24:31 ◼   ► because he was so excited.

00:24:32 ◼   ► And that is really cool.

00:24:34 ◼   ► I mean, just as a developer, I love--

00:24:37 ◼   ► I've got to imagine the iPad team who

00:24:39 ◼   ► had made those features love hearing

00:24:40 ◼   ► the feedback of these people who are so genuinely excited

00:24:43 ◼   ► about it.

00:24:44 ◼   ► And it's like, I like that that's there.

00:24:47 ◼   ► I'm still nervous about whether or not it will be enough.

00:24:52 ◼   ► It's like you have such this chicken and egg problem

00:24:54 ◼   ► with the iPad, I feel, where if Apple can pull enough people

00:25:00 ◼   ► into the platform to make it-- to have

00:25:04 ◼   ► that richness of ecosystem, it is a really interesting

00:25:07 ◼   ► and compelling device.

00:25:07 ◼   ► And when the iPad first came out,

00:25:10 ◼   ► whatever that was four, five, six years ago,

00:25:13 ◼   ► it was a pretty good place to be an app developer.

00:25:17 ◼   ► I made a substantial part of my business

00:25:20 ◼   ► working on the iPad for years.

00:25:22 ◼   ► And then it just kind of fell off.

00:25:24 ◼   ► And in many ways, it kind of fell off with Apple's sales

00:25:27 ◼   ► graph.

00:25:28 ◼   ► The iPad sells less and less every year.

00:25:30 ◼   ► My hope is that what Apple is doing

00:25:32 ◼   ► with these kind of changes is if they can pull that back

00:25:37 ◼   ► and kind of have an inflection point where suddenly it gets

00:25:41 ◼   ► a little bit more traction.

00:25:42 ◼   ► It's all these things that were just a little bit too

00:25:45 ◼   ► difficult before now become that little bit more easy

00:25:47 ◼   ► and are now more possible.

00:25:49 ◼   ► Maybe we'll get there.

00:25:50 ◼   ► And if they do, then that's interesting.

00:25:52 ◼   ► And I could definitely see transitioning my focus a bit

00:25:55 ◼   ► back towards the iPad.

00:25:56 ◼   ► Because honestly, recently, it hasn't been there at all.

00:26:00 ◼   ► And I like the iPad.

00:26:02 ◼   ► It's an interesting platform in that respect.

00:26:04 ◼   ► But there's such this tricky thing

00:26:06 ◼   ► when the iPhone is so viable as an app platform

00:26:10 ◼   ► that the iPad could be viable as an app platform.

00:26:15 ◼   ► But if it isn't, it's like-- and if lots of developers

00:26:18 ◼   ► don't go there, it won't be.

00:26:21 ◼   ► But lots of developers going there won't make it viable.

00:26:24 ◼   ► And so it's very circular.

00:26:26 ◼   ► And I'm still of two minds as to whether--

00:26:29 ◼   ► I'm not sure if this year I'll be focusing much on the iPad

00:26:34 ◼   ► or if it's one of those wait and see.

00:26:36 ◼   ► Have a couple of quarters of sales

00:26:39 ◼   ► to see if the iPad sales are starting to come back out,

00:26:41 ◼   ► waiting to see if there is an uptick on things.

00:26:44 ◼   ► Because I don't know.

00:26:47 ◼   ► I want to be excited.

00:26:48 ◼   ► But of all the things they announce, it's like,

00:26:51 ◼   ► I'm excited, but I'm much more cautiously excited

00:26:54 ◼   ► than I am on a lot of the other platforms in the ways

00:26:57 ◼   ► that Apple's trying to push us this year.

00:27:00 ◼   ► Yeah, I think that's probably a safe bet.

00:27:01 ◼   ► Because with the iPad stuff, you never really know until a year

00:27:06 ◼   ► or two later what swing the market has taken.

00:27:09 ◼   ► It's a lagging indicator.

00:27:12 ◼   ► And a lot of these new iPad productivity gains

00:27:15 ◼   ► are only going to be compelling or widely used

00:27:18 ◼   ► on pretty high-end, pretty recent iPads, which is not

00:27:21 ◼   ► a large slice of the market.

00:27:23 ◼   ► And so we really won't know yet.

00:27:25 ◼   ► So I guess I agree with you.

00:27:26 ◼   ► It's probably a little bit risky to jump in right now.

00:27:29 ◼   ► But I do think there's something about the iPad

00:27:32 ◼   ► that people love it.

00:27:34 ◼   ► They tangibly love this device.

00:27:37 ◼   ► They want to use it more.

00:27:38 ◼   ► And the story I hear over and over again

00:27:40 ◼   ► is, I would love to get more work done,

00:27:42 ◼   ► or I'd love to use this thing more,

00:27:44 ◼   ► but I can't do what I need to do,

00:27:46 ◼   ► or it's too cumbersome, or whatever else.

00:27:48 ◼   ► So I think there's something there.

00:27:49 ◼   ► And I think people will try really hard

00:27:52 ◼   ► to make it work for them again, now that we have

00:27:54 ◼   ► radically new capabilities.

00:27:55 ◼   ► I mean, when iOS 9 launched with the multitasking

00:27:58 ◼   ► for the first time, that converted a ton of iPad

00:28:01 ◼   ► skeptics over into being iPad lovers and iPad workers.

00:28:06 ◼   ► And now there's another step, probably of that magnitude,

00:28:09 ◼   ► or even more so, that I think might do that same thing.

00:28:13 ◼   ► The only question is, will it stick or will it be a fad?

00:28:17 ◼   ► And it's hard to base major business decisions on that.

00:28:21 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:28:22 ◼   ► And I think I'm--

00:28:26 ◼   ► I've been doing this long enough that I increasingly

00:28:31 ◼   ► have a sense of caution about those kinds of things,

00:28:34 ◼   ► which in many ways is probably to my detriment.

00:28:37 ◼   ► I'm very aware of the fact that I probably

00:28:40 ◼   ► wouldn't be able to have a sustainable business

00:28:43 ◼   ► at this point if I was cautious in the past,

00:28:46 ◼   ► that in some ways it's going to take developers making

00:28:50 ◼   ► kind of reckless and sort of slightly wild decisions

00:28:56 ◼   ► to pursue and push the boundaries on the iPad

00:28:58 ◼   ► for the iPad to be a viable platform.

00:29:00 ◼   ► And I will say one thing that Apple tends to do well

00:29:03 ◼   ► is if developers do go down that road,

00:29:08 ◼   ► they're good at recognizing them, at promoting them,

00:29:11 ◼   ► and at helping them.

00:29:12 ◼   ► That if you are at WWDC this week and you go down to a lab

00:29:15 ◼   ► and you're trying to do something, or you want to reach

00:29:18 ◼   ► out to developer relations and you're having a problem trying

00:29:20 ◼   ► to push the boundaries, there's a very good chance

00:29:22 ◼   ► they will encourage that.

00:29:25 ◼   ► So I would encourage anybody who's more adventurous than I

00:29:27 ◼   ► am to dive into that, because I think it's not an easy win,

00:29:30 ◼   ► but there's a good opportunity there.

00:29:32 ◼   ► Are you saying you might make more apps?

00:29:35 ◼   ► It's possible.

00:29:36 ◼   ► That's impressive.

00:29:38 ◼   ► I think we're out of time this week, everybody.

00:29:40 ◼   ► So thank you very much for listening,

00:29:41 ◼   ► and we'll see you next week.

00:29:43 ◼   ► Bye.