Under the Radar

00:00:00 ◼   ► Welcome to Under the Radar,

00:00:01 ◼   ► a show about independent iOS app development.

00:00:03 ◼   ► I'm Marco Arment.

00:00:05 ◼   ► - And I'm David Smith.

00:00:06 ◼   ► Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes,

00:00:08 ◼   ► so let's get started.

00:00:10 ◼   ► So this week, we wanted to talk a little bit about

00:00:15 ◼   ► a story that I think has been getting

00:00:17 ◼   ► a fair bit of traction and interest

00:00:19 ◼   ► just generally within our developer community right now,

00:00:21 ◼   ► and I think it's an important one to emphasize.

00:00:25 ◼   ► And this specifically, we're gonna talk about

00:00:27 ◼   ► the practice that seemed to have been kind of growing

00:00:30 ◼   ► over the last few months, maybe a year,

00:00:32 ◼   ► of sort of sneaky subscriptions or tricky ways

00:00:36 ◼   ► that people are using and kind of abusing

00:00:38 ◼   ► the subscription system in the app store to be,

00:00:43 ◼   ► I think it's fair to say, overcharging,

00:00:45 ◼   ► or in some ways almost like fraudulently charging people

00:00:48 ◼   ► fairly substantial sums of money

00:00:50 ◼   ► for things that don't really seem like

00:00:53 ◼   ► they should be worth that.

00:00:54 ◼   ► There is, I think this got most prominent

00:00:57 ◼   ► with an article that was on TechCrunch

00:00:59 ◼   ► where they kind of went through a couple of these,

00:01:02 ◼   ► and you get these examples of these

00:01:04 ◼   ► seemingly very simple utilities.

00:01:07 ◼   ► There is a QR code scanner, which by the way

00:01:09 ◼   ► is something that's built into the phone

00:01:11 ◼   ► that people are being charged $20 a year to use.

00:01:17 ◼   ► And there's one that's a bunch of weather apps,

00:01:20 ◼   ► there's scanner software, all these things that,

00:01:25 ◼   ► these sort of utility functions,

00:01:27 ◼   ► many of which are actually built into the system

00:01:29 ◼   ► that now have subscriptions.

00:01:31 ◼   ► - $20 a year, that's not even a very egregious example.

00:01:37 ◼   ► What a lot of these have been doing is

00:01:39 ◼   ► they'll charge $100 a month for weather,

00:01:44 ◼   ► or something like that where it's like

00:01:46 ◼   ► they're taking advantage of the subscription system

00:01:48 ◼   ► and the way the purchase sheet is designed and presented

00:01:51 ◼   ► and small print and free trials

00:01:54 ◼   ► to basically trick people into very, very high priced

00:01:59 ◼   ► subscriptions for things they didn't really intend to

00:02:02 ◼   ► or that wouldn't normally command

00:02:04 ◼   ► anywhere near that kind of price.

00:02:06 ◼   ► - Yeah, and it's, and honestly,

00:02:09 ◼   ► I was probably gonna get into this in a little bit,

00:02:10 ◼   ► but I think it's probably fair to say

00:02:12 ◼   ► a big part of why this works,

00:02:14 ◼   ► why this scam is even possible,

00:02:16 ◼   ► has to do with the way that subscriptions are implemented

00:02:19 ◼   ► in the App Store right now.

00:02:21 ◼   ► That I think, and that's not to say that I think,

00:02:23 ◼   ► and we'll get into this around the ethics

00:02:25 ◼   ► around these kind of things,

00:02:26 ◼   ► like the developers are certainly

00:02:27 ◼   ► sort of responsible for this,

00:02:30 ◼   ► but I think the way that Apple has built subscriptions

00:02:32 ◼   ► into the App Store is partly enabling for this type of thing.

00:02:37 ◼   ► Managing subscriptions is weird as a user.

00:02:41 ◼   ► It's like where do you go to manage your subscriptions?

00:02:44 ◼   ► Well, you tap on your face in the top right corner

00:02:47 ◼   ► of one of the tabs, the Today tab,

00:02:50 ◼   ► which seems like the Today tab

00:02:52 ◼   ► should have nothing to do with your profile,

00:02:53 ◼   ► so that's where you go.

00:02:54 ◼   ► You go tap on your face,

00:02:55 ◼   ► and then you have to scroll down past the first,

00:02:58 ◼   ► like I have an iPhone 10, which is a pretty long screen,

00:03:01 ◼   ► and the Manage Subscriptions option is well down below that,

00:03:05 ◼   ► that if you may not know is there,

00:03:07 ◼   ► if you didn't think scroll, then you tap on that,

00:03:10 ◼   ► and then you'll finally get to the place

00:03:11 ◼   ► that you can manage your subscriptions.

00:03:13 ◼   ► That's not great.

00:03:16 ◼   ► It's kind of confusing, and if you don't know,

00:03:18 ◼   ► if you didn't know where it was,

00:03:20 ◼   ► I don't think you would naturally find it.

00:03:22 ◼   ► It's not like an easy, obvious place.

00:03:24 ◼   ► It's not accessible from the Settings app,

00:03:27 ◼   ► which I think a lot of people might think would be the case.

00:03:30 ◼   ► This is sort of helped slightly by Apple sending emails

00:03:33 ◼   ► that are letting you know when your subscription's

00:03:35 ◼   ► gonna renew and what it's gonna cost,

00:03:37 ◼   ► and that kind of stuff might help,

00:03:39 ◼   ► but I think it's one of these things

00:03:41 ◼   ► that Apple clearly has indicated specifically and explicitly

00:03:46 ◼   ► that they want subscriptions to be a bigger part

00:03:49 ◼   ► of the way that apps are monetized on the App Store,

00:03:52 ◼   ► but the physical infrastructure and the rules around that

00:03:56 ◼   ► don't seem to have caught up to that,

00:03:58 ◼   ► where I would imagine that it seems the kind of thing

00:04:01 ◼   ► that there should be a system-wide control

00:04:04 ◼   ► that every app that implements subscriptions has to use

00:04:07 ◼   ► and has to make visible in the application

00:04:10 ◼   ► that you can tap and you can manage your subscription from.

00:04:13 ◼   ► There's all manner of things like that where it's easy,

00:04:16 ◼   ► they make it super easy to sign up

00:04:18 ◼   ► and then kind of hard to cancel,

00:04:21 ◼   ► which is classic, which I guess is good business sense,

00:04:25 ◼   ► but is kind of tricky, especially in these cases

00:04:29 ◼   ► where you start to have apps that are taking advantage

00:04:31 ◼   ► of that asymmetry to do really dodgy things.

00:04:36 ◼   ► - It's also like there are certain details about it

00:04:38 ◼   ► that are just incredibly unintuitive and hostile,

00:04:40 ◼   ► like when you delete an app, it does not cancel

00:04:43 ◼   ► any auto-renewing subscriptions that belong to that app.

00:04:46 ◼   ► Now, there are reasons why you might want that,

00:04:48 ◼   ► like if you have multiple devices

00:04:51 ◼   ► and you have a Netflix subscription

00:04:54 ◼   ► and you delete from one device

00:04:56 ◼   ► and it doesn't cancel your Netflix subscription

00:04:58 ◼   ► because you have other devices, that kind of makes sense,

00:05:01 ◼   ► but I don't think that should be the default behavior.

00:05:04 ◼   ► And I think if you delete an app,

00:05:06 ◼   ► it might at least tell you by a dialogue box

00:05:08 ◼   ► that hey, this won't cancel the subscriptions,

00:05:11 ◼   ► but nobody reads dialogue boxes.

00:05:14 ◼   ► When you delete an app and you see a box,

00:05:15 ◼   ► you just hit okay, okay, okay, okay, okay,

00:05:17 ◼   ► like you just go through whatever,

00:05:18 ◼   ► yeah, I want to delete this app.

00:05:19 ◼   ► So a lot of these apps, by using the free trial system,

00:05:22 ◼   ► they will start a free trial subscription

00:05:25 ◼   ► that people are like okay, yeah, I'll try this for free,

00:05:26 ◼   ► I want to scan my QR code and I don't know

00:05:29 ◼   ► if the built-in camera app can just do that.

00:05:30 ◼   ► And so they'll say okay, yeah, sure, free trial,

00:05:35 ◼   ► then they'll think to themselves,

00:05:36 ◼   ► oh, I'll just delete the app and then I won't be charged.

00:05:38 ◼   ► And then so they use it, they delete the app,

00:05:41 ◼   ► and then a week later, they're charged.

00:05:43 ◼   ► And the design of the sheet,

00:05:45 ◼   ► of the in-app purchase sheet even,

00:05:47 ◼   ► is also pretty misleading with a lot of the stuff.

00:05:50 ◼   ► Like they tweeted a little bit recently over time,

00:05:53 ◼   ► but still the look of an in-app purchase sheet,

00:05:58 ◼   ► whether it's gonna charge you like $5 once

00:06:04 ◼   ► or $500 a week, it looks pretty much the same.

00:06:09 ◼   ► Like the differences are very minor,

00:06:11 ◼   ► and it's on that in-app purchase sheet,

00:06:14 ◼   ► like that kind of Apple Pay type sheet,

00:06:16 ◼   ► now that's full of a lot of small text,

00:06:19 ◼   ► all of which is in all capitals.

00:06:22 ◼   ► So it's not a very readable design,

00:06:24 ◼   ► it's not a good design for clearly communicating,

00:06:27 ◼   ► unambiguously, like this is a recurring thing

00:06:31 ◼   ► that you're gonna pay unless you go through

00:06:33 ◼   ► these hoops to cancel, and also,

00:06:36 ◼   ► I think they're kind of doing themselves a disservice here

00:06:39 ◼   ► by making every interval look the same.

00:06:43 ◼   ► So if I'm being charged $500 a week,

00:06:47 ◼   ► or $500 a year, that's a pretty big difference.

00:06:51 ◼   ► And yet the sheet doesn't look very different.

00:06:53 ◼   ► I think there's lots of different ways

00:06:55 ◼   ► they can make this easier and better.

00:06:57 ◼   ► Number one would be that the prompt when you delete an app

00:07:01 ◼   ► that has auto-renewing subscriptions,

00:07:04 ◼   ► like the default-styled button in that prompt

00:07:07 ◼   ► should be cancel those subscriptions,

00:07:09 ◼   ► and it should just do it with that one tap,

00:07:11 ◼   ► maybe have you enter your iTunes password or whatever,

00:07:14 ◼   ► but that's it, that should be one quick action

00:07:16 ◼   ► on that sheet that should be automatic.

00:07:18 ◼   ► And secondly, I think the in-app purchase confirmation sheet

00:07:23 ◼   ► should be better designed, it should be more clearly

00:07:25 ◼   ► designed to look less like a receipt that nobody reads,

00:07:29 ◼   ► and to look more like a clear purchase agreement here

00:07:32 ◼   ► that clearly specifies in readable formats

00:07:36 ◼   ► with readable typography how much you're gonna be charged

00:07:39 ◼   ► and when, and I would even go even further

00:07:42 ◼   ► and say to help differentiate the frequency issue,

00:07:45 ◼   ► I would say that sheet should be redesigned to say

00:07:48 ◼   ► like this is equivalent to X dollars per year.

00:07:52 ◼   ► So if it's an annual subscription, fine,

00:07:54 ◼   ► this is 10 bucks a year.

00:07:55 ◼   ► But if it's a weekly subscription,

00:07:56 ◼   ► you can say this is $3,000 a year, like whatever it is,

00:07:58 ◼   ► like that should be clear to people.

00:08:01 ◼   ► Because right now, the reason these apps work this way

00:08:04 ◼   ► at all, the reason this scam has worked so much

00:08:07 ◼   ► is because everything is not very clear to the user

00:08:10 ◼   ► and it's very difficult to cancel these subscriptions.

00:08:13 ◼   ► - Yeah, and like there's so many aspects of this

00:08:17 ◼   ► that I think just like more broadly in the app store

00:08:19 ◼   ► that are so, they give me such unease where it's like,

00:08:23 ◼   ► this is the most recent thing, but like,

00:08:25 ◼   ► and to Apple's credit, I think they've gone through

00:08:28 ◼   ► since this became a thing and it sounds like

00:08:30 ◼   ► they're doing an audit of subscription-based applications

00:08:33 ◼   ► and like, are they doing the right thing

00:08:35 ◼   ► in terms of trying to deal with the issue

00:08:38 ◼   ► as it stands today?

00:08:39 ◼   ► I'm not sure what they're going to do going forward

00:08:41 ◼   ► to kind of keep it from happening in the future

00:08:43 ◼   ► because there's always gonna be this case where,

00:08:46 ◼   ► you know, this is, and it reminds me of,

00:08:47 ◼   ► in the original days of subscriptions,

00:08:50 ◼   ► they were very limiting in what apps

00:08:53 ◼   ► could offer subscriptions.

00:08:54 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:08:55 ◼   ► - And I remember specifically complaining about that.

00:08:57 ◼   ► Like it seemed like, oh, you know,

00:08:59 ◼   ► like you had to have some kind of service

00:09:01 ◼   ► or physical thing that you were, you know,

00:09:04 ◼   ► sort of charging for and I remember complaining about that.

00:09:06 ◼   ► And it's like, this is just a good reminder for myself

00:09:08 ◼   ► of this is why Apple likely did that,

00:09:11 ◼   ► is they knew that their policy has to hold up

00:09:14 ◼   ► to the people's worst intentions, not their best intentions.

00:09:19 ◼   ► And, you know, since they've opened it up,

00:09:22 ◼   ► people have taken advantage of that.

00:09:23 ◼   ► And you can imagine like, I suspect when these apps

00:09:26 ◼   ► went through App Review, they like,

00:09:29 ◼   ► like the pricing tiers for all of their things

00:09:31 ◼   ► were likely very different,

00:09:32 ◼   ► but you can dynamically change the pricing tiers,

00:09:35 ◼   ► I believe, for a subscription.

00:09:37 ◼   ► - Oh.

00:09:37 ◼   ► - I mean, fair enough, the people,

00:09:38 ◼   ► when they sign up for it, that pricing change

00:09:42 ◼   ► was going to be reflected to them.

00:09:43 ◼   ► You know, like I was best to understand,

00:09:45 ◼   ► like, you know, if that person signs up,

00:09:47 ◼   ► it did say that it was going to be $100 a week

00:09:50 ◼   ► to that person.

00:09:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, like it'll never rise the,

00:09:53 ◼   ► it'll never raise the price on existing subscriptions.

00:09:55 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:09:56 ◼   ► - But you can raise it on new ones.

00:09:57 ◼   ► - So they can go through App Review,

00:09:59 ◼   ► where it's a dollar a week,

00:10:01 ◼   ► and then, you know, once it's through App Review,

00:10:03 ◼   ► they can change it,

00:10:04 ◼   ► which has always kind of been one of these awkward things.

00:10:07 ◼   ► I mean, I have no idea if that's the case,

00:10:08 ◼   ► but that's my guess is how a lot of these scams work.

00:10:11 ◼   ► Like it's, and it's tricky to like,

00:10:15 ◼   ► I could, you know, I don't know how you can deal with this,

00:10:18 ◼   ► other than you go back to the world

00:10:19 ◼   ► where it's very limited that you have to be like

00:10:21 ◼   ► a media company or something that is a, you know,

00:10:24 ◼   ► a subscription service that you can't have subscriptions

00:10:27 ◼   ► and utilities, but like that's problematic too.

00:10:29 ◼   ► Like it's such a tricky thing.

00:10:31 ◼   ► I mean, it makes me, it reminds me in a weird way

00:10:33 ◼   ► of consumable in-app purchase,

00:10:35 ◼   ► which was also, is also, you know,

00:10:37 ◼   ► and remains very problematic in a lot of ways

00:10:40 ◼   ► for different reasons.

00:10:41 ◼   ► Like it's sort of scammy in a different way

00:10:44 ◼   ► where it's emotional, it's sort of, it's the, you know,

00:10:46 ◼   ► create an application that has an addictive quality,

00:10:49 ◼   ► loss aversion, has a variety of these kinds

00:10:52 ◼   ► of psychological manipulation techniques in it,

00:10:54 ◼   ► and then have a consumable in-app purchase

00:10:56 ◼   ► where you can prey upon, you know, a small subset

00:11:00 ◼   ► of your users to spend huge sums of money.

00:11:02 ◼   ► And, you know, in the same way, I've for a long time

00:11:05 ◼   ► advocated that consumable in-app purchase

00:11:08 ◼   ► should always show the cumulative amount of money

00:11:11 ◼   ► that you've spent in the application to date,

00:11:15 ◼   ► that it's like, it's still obviously,

00:11:17 ◼   ► like it's the person's choice.

00:11:18 ◼   ► Like that, you know, there's two sides of this,

00:11:20 ◼   ► that there's the person being manipulated, scammed,

00:11:23 ◼   ► whatever you want to call it,

00:11:24 ◼   ► and the person doing the scamming.

00:11:25 ◼   ► And like that person is still making a choice to hit by,

00:11:29 ◼   ► but giving them that person the maximum amount

00:11:31 ◼   ► of information and making that as clear as possible

00:11:34 ◼   ► always seems like the best, you know, it's the,

00:11:37 ◼   ► that's avoiding some set of these issues

00:11:40 ◼   ► where there's the people who are just being,

00:11:44 ◼   ► who don't understand what they're doing,

00:11:46 ◼   ► you know, they think they're just signing up

00:11:48 ◼   ► for a free trial, and they're not expecting

00:11:51 ◼   ► to be charged at all.

00:11:53 ◼   ► Like, I mean, you could imagine there are, you know,

00:11:55 ◼   ► there are some free trials where,

00:11:57 ◼   ► yeah, not a sponsor this week, I think,

00:12:00 ◼   ► but like Squarespace, I think is an example of this,

00:12:02 ◼   ► where you have a free trial that when it ends

00:12:04 ◼   ► is when it asks you to then pay.

00:12:06 ◼   ► Like, that's a very, that's like the most kind,

00:12:10 ◼   ► appropriate ethical version of this,

00:12:11 ◼   ► where you're never charged until you are absolutely

00:12:14 ◼   ► confident that you want the thing,

00:12:16 ◼   ► whereas most of these, you know,

00:12:17 ◼   ► the free trials in the App Store are, it's a free trial,

00:12:20 ◼   ► and at the end, you'll immediately get charged,

00:12:22 ◼   ► and your billing information is already on iTunes.

00:12:24 ◼   ► So, you know, it's like that, these types of patterns

00:12:27 ◼   ► are so much, I think, there's the policy side,

00:12:31 ◼   ► and then, yeah, like there's the UI design,

00:12:34 ◼   ► consumer information side, where it's making it clear

00:12:37 ◼   ► and upfront what people are actually being charged,

00:12:39 ◼   ► both now and in the future, as well as giving them

00:12:43 ◼   ► good tools for canceling, getting refunds,

00:12:46 ◼   ► those types of things, you know, in the, you know,

00:12:49 ◼   ► if they change their mind or have issues

00:12:51 ◼   ► going down the road.

00:12:52 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I think it's important as developers

00:12:55 ◼   ► to consider and to weigh, like, the ethics

00:12:59 ◼   ► of how we're making money, and the various ways

00:13:03 ◼   ► in which we might be making money that,

00:13:06 ◼   ► either known or unknown to us, is kind of wrong

00:13:10 ◼   ► or bad feeling or amoral or something like that,

00:13:12 ◼   ► unethical, tricking, you know, whatever it is,

00:13:15 ◼   ► like, almost every business model that is available to us

00:13:19 ◼   ► has risks like that, or has the potential for,

00:13:24 ◼   ► kind of like, uncomfortable profitability in certain ways.

00:13:27 ◼   ► And it's a constant issue that we face.

00:13:30 ◼   ► And after the break, which I'll talk about also,

00:13:33 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:13:35 ◼   ► I'll talk more about that, but, you know,

00:13:36 ◼   ► even podcast ads, like, you know,

00:13:38 ◼   ► like I make a lot of my living from podcast ads,

00:13:41 ◼   ► and even they have a little bit of a downside,

00:13:45 ◼   ► in that one of the reason podcast ads

00:13:48 ◼   ► that are read by the hosts work is that

00:13:51 ◼   ► they all kind of have an implied endorsement,

00:13:55 ◼   ► even though, like, you know, like, I'm very careful,

00:13:57 ◼   ► as a podcast host who reads sponsorships,

00:13:59 ◼   ► I'm very careful to always tell the sponsors

00:14:02 ◼   ► and to tell them I read such that

00:14:04 ◼   ► they're never buying my endorsement.

00:14:06 ◼   ► I'm never selling that.

00:14:07 ◼   ► Like, they can't require endorsements.

00:14:09 ◼   ► They try, many of them try, not this one, fortunately,

00:14:12 ◼   ► but they try, but I always just say,

00:14:14 ◼   ► no, that isn't available.

00:14:16 ◼   ► And I will, you know, I can read their script,

00:14:20 ◼   ► and, you know, I can say what they say

00:14:23 ◼   ► that doesn't involve what I think of it.

00:14:25 ◼   ► But if I say what I think, I'm actually adding that myself.

00:14:28 ◼   ► I'm ad-libbing that.

00:14:29 ◼   ► That's not in their script,

00:14:30 ◼   ► and they aren't paying me to say that,

00:14:31 ◼   ► and they aren't requiring me to say that.

00:14:33 ◼   ► And so, the problem, though, is that, like,

00:14:36 ◼   ► that's a pretty fun distinction.

00:14:37 ◼   ► And, like, a lot of people will think that anything

00:14:39 ◼   ► that I advertise, or any sponsor that I do,

00:14:43 ◼   ► even if I'm just reading their marketing copy

00:14:46 ◼   ► and not talking about my opinion of it,

00:14:49 ◼   ► there is a level of implied endorsement there,

00:14:52 ◼   ► where some people think that, like,

00:14:54 ◼   ► if I'm reading something that I've never used,

00:14:56 ◼   ► they might assume I've used it and that I like it.

00:14:58 ◼   ► And so, we have to be very careful with sponsor selection,

00:15:01 ◼   ► even, like, who we even let advertise on our shows,

00:15:03 ◼   ► because there is that kind of level of implied endorsement,

00:15:06 ◼   ► and that makes me kind of uncomfortable.

00:15:08 ◼   ► But it's just kind of a reality of, like,

00:15:09 ◼   ► this is how this market works,

00:15:11 ◼   ► and this is the, by far, the most effective way

00:15:14 ◼   ► to fund podcast development,

00:15:16 ◼   ► and so we have to kind of take that,

00:15:18 ◼   ► but it kind of makes me uncomfortable.

00:15:20 ◼   ► The good thing is, this week's sponsor isn't one of those.

00:15:22 ◼   ► This week's sponsor is Linode.

00:15:24 ◼   ► Linode is a service I actually use,

00:15:25 ◼   ► I have used since long before they were a sponsor,

00:15:27 ◼   ► something like eight, nine years now,

00:15:29 ◼   ► and they don't require anybody to tell you

00:15:32 ◼   ► how great they are from their point of view.

00:15:34 ◼   ► They have this wonderful marketing copy

00:15:35 ◼   ► that I'll read in a second, but I am here to tell you

00:15:37 ◼   ► I actually like Linode a lot, and so this is,

00:15:39 ◼   ► fortunately, this conversation does not apply

00:15:40 ◼   ► to them at all.

00:15:41 ◼   ► So, Linode gives you access to a suite

00:15:43 ◼   ► of powerful hosting options,

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00:15:48 ◼   ► in the Linode cloud in under a minute.

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00:15:52 ◼   ► or deploying a complex system, Linode is a great choice.

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00:16:02 ◼   ► It has never been easier to launch a Linode cloud server,

00:16:05 ◼   ► and they guarantee 99.9% uptime for server availability.

00:16:09 ◼   ► Once your server is up, they keep it that way.

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00:16:14 ◼   ► with their new block storage feature.

00:16:15 ◼   ► This is great if you need portable storage

00:16:18 ◼   ► between instances, or if you need very large,

00:16:20 ◼   ► vast amounts of it for not that much money,

00:16:22 ◼   ► Linode is great for that with the new block storage feature.

00:16:24 ◼   ► So, with Linode, you can do all sorts of things.

00:16:26 ◼   ► You can host applications, like what I do

00:16:28 ◼   ► with Overcast there.

00:16:29 ◼   ► You can host big databases, mail servers.

00:16:32 ◼   ► You can run VPNs, Docker containers,

00:16:35 ◼   ► private Git servers, and so much more.

00:16:37 ◼   ► And they're hiring right now.

00:16:39 ◼   ► That is, you go to linode.com/careers.

00:16:42 ◼   ► So Linode has fantastic pricing options.

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00:17:06 ◼   ► sign up and take advantage of that $20 credit,

00:17:08 ◼   ► or use promo code RADAR2018 at checkout.

00:17:11 ◼   ► Thank you so much to Linode for supporting

00:17:12 ◼   ► this show and Relay FM.

00:17:14 ◼   ► - Related to the podcast advertising challenges

00:17:17 ◼   ► you just described, like, is in applications,

00:17:21 ◼   ► I think, themselves.

00:17:21 ◼   ► Like, I have to, like, in my applications,

00:17:24 ◼   ► I include a third-party ad framework,

00:17:27 ◼   ► which, in a weird way, is like,

00:17:29 ◼   ► I am giving a implied endorsement for any data collection

00:17:33 ◼   ► that they do in my application,

00:17:37 ◼   ► which is a really awkward, weird place to find yourself,

00:17:40 ◼   ► but is kind of the unfortunate reality of,

00:17:44 ◼   ► if you wanna make money from a free application,

00:17:47 ◼   ► there's a certain number of, like,

00:17:49 ◼   ► showing ads is something you're kinda gonna have to do.

00:17:52 ◼   ► And I long for the days of iAd,

00:17:54 ◼   ► where, like, I felt like the ad producer

00:17:57 ◼   ► was very much privacy-oriented and customer-positive.

00:18:01 ◼   ► But, like, now it certainly feels a little bit like

00:18:03 ◼   ► you're kind of choosing the best of a couple

00:18:07 ◼   ► of not-great options.

00:18:09 ◼   ► And I think we've talked about this before,

00:18:11 ◼   ► even back when iAd was discontinued.

00:18:14 ◼   ► I think I've settled on using Google for this,

00:18:17 ◼   ► just because I feel like they're a big enough company

00:18:19 ◼   ► that their compliance is likely better

00:18:24 ◼   ► than sort of a smaller, more fly-by-night

00:18:27 ◼   ► kind of advertising network that's trying

00:18:29 ◼   ► to get off the ground, or those kind of things.

00:18:32 ◼   ► Like, Google at least has a big enough incentive

00:18:36 ◼   ► to keep on the good side of things,

00:18:39 ◼   ► but it's still, I don't feel great about it.

00:18:41 ◼   ► It's not something that is a positive feeling,

00:18:44 ◼   ► but I feel like it's a compromise and a reality

00:18:46 ◼   ► that I just sort of have to accept.

00:18:48 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, and when I was doing Google Ads and Overcast,

00:18:51 ◼   ► I went through the same thought process

00:18:52 ◼   ► and came to the same conclusion.

00:18:54 ◼   ► If you have an ad-funded business,

00:18:57 ◼   ► the reality is the ad world is really messy.

00:19:00 ◼   ► And some parts of it can be reasonable,

00:19:02 ◼   ► and many parts of it are very unreasonable,

00:19:05 ◼   ► and sometimes you don't have a choice.

00:19:08 ◼   ► When I was doing the Google Ads in my app,

00:19:11 ◼   ► there's only so many mobile ad platforms

00:19:13 ◼   ► that you can choose from, and I agree with you

00:19:16 ◼   ► that Google is probably the one that is least likely

00:19:19 ◼   ► to be doing creepy stuff because they have

00:19:20 ◼   ► the most scrutiny and the most to lose,

00:19:23 ◼   ► and that's why I went with them.

00:19:24 ◼   ► And certainly, you're right, I think all the little players

00:19:28 ◼   ► are the ones that are usually the creepiest

00:19:30 ◼   ► and usually flagrantly violate all the laws

00:19:32 ◼   ► and privacy standards and regulations and everything.

00:19:34 ◼   ► But every business model you choose,

00:19:37 ◼   ► there's something like this, there's some ethical downside

00:19:41 ◼   ► that either is unavoidable or is really hard to avoid.

00:19:46 ◼   ► And with Overcast, I actually lucked out in that

00:19:51 ◼   ► I developed my own ad system after the Google thing,

00:19:54 ◼   ► just didn't do very well, I developed my own ad system

00:19:56 ◼   ► and that worked better, and I was able to use it.

00:19:58 ◼   ► So now I control everything, so now I know

00:20:01 ◼   ► that I'm not doing anything creepy with people's data

00:20:03 ◼   ► or privacy or anything, and so I can feel good about that.

00:20:06 ◼   ► But even with the most simple stuff,

00:20:08 ◼   ► like you might think that if you have a paid app,

00:20:11 ◼   ► or some way where people just pay you money

00:20:13 ◼   ► and then they get your app, even that has potential problems.

00:20:18 ◼   ► Like back when I was doing Instapaper,

00:20:20 ◼   ► that was paid up front, and the issue with that

00:20:24 ◼   ► was that because there was no free trial,

00:20:27 ◼   ► a lot of people would buy the app

00:20:30 ◼   ► and realize it wasn't for them.

00:20:32 ◼   ► Some people would buy it and never launch it.

00:20:34 ◼   ► Some people would buy it and realize,

00:20:37 ◼   ► you know what, this isn't what I thought it was,

00:20:38 ◼   ► or I don't like this after all.

00:20:40 ◼   ► I wish I hadn't spent that money.

00:20:42 ◼   ► Sometimes they would try to get a refund,

00:20:44 ◼   ► sometimes, and app store refunds are not easy to get.

00:20:48 ◼   ► You have to fill out some tickets somewhere,

00:20:50 ◼   ► and it's like most people don't even know

00:20:51 ◼   ► that that's possible, so the reality is

00:20:53 ◼   ► there's a whole lot of people who would like

00:20:54 ◼   ► to return something on the app store and just never bother.

00:20:57 ◼   ► Kind of like when mail-in rebates are really hard

00:21:00 ◼   ► to send back 'cause they have crazy requirements.

00:21:02 ◼   ► They know, like that's intentional, they do that

00:21:03 ◼   ► so that the fewer people send them back.

00:21:05 ◼   ► It's kind of like that.

00:21:06 ◼   ► The app store returns and refunds are really hard,

00:21:09 ◼   ► and I think that's by design.

00:21:11 ◼   ► I think that's because they don't want

00:21:12 ◼   ► a lot of people getting refunds.

00:21:14 ◼   ► So the reality is even with direct purchases,

00:21:17 ◼   ► there's a whole lot of those purchases

00:21:18 ◼   ► that you get the money for, but then the person

00:21:21 ◼   ► immediately deletes the app, and they realize,

00:21:22 ◼   ► ah crap, this isn't for me.

00:21:23 ◼   ► I just kissed that $5 goodbye,

00:21:26 ◼   ► and they're kind of mad about it,

00:21:27 ◼   ► or they kind of feel ripped off,

00:21:28 ◼   ► but there's nothing they're gonna do about it.

00:21:30 ◼   ► And I knew that, like with Instapaper,

00:21:31 ◼   ► I knew some portion of this money that I'm getting,

00:21:34 ◼   ► I kind of don't want.

00:21:35 ◼   ► I kind of feel bad keeping

00:21:37 ◼   ► because these people don't want it.

00:21:38 ◼   ► And I thought that moving to the overcast premium

00:21:41 ◼   ► within that purchase, I thought that would solve

00:21:43 ◼   ► that problem, but it actually doesn't

00:21:45 ◼   ► because what I recently started getting

00:21:47 ◼   ► is emails every couple of days from somebody saying,

00:21:50 ◼   ► so overcast premium is this option in overcast

00:21:53 ◼   ► where you can pay to hide the aforementioned banner ads

00:21:55 ◼   ► in the app that I have ads for other podcasts.

00:21:58 ◼   ► And then I play on screen,

00:21:59 ◼   ► this is how it makes most of its money.

00:22:00 ◼   ► And there's a premium option

00:22:01 ◼   ► where you can remove those ads.

00:22:03 ◼   ► Podcast makers also insert ads themselves

00:22:07 ◼   ► into podcasts in audio form,

00:22:09 ◼   ► like the sponsor read I just did.

00:22:11 ◼   ► Some people think that the overcast premium purchase

00:22:15 ◼   ► will remove those ads in podcasts that are audio

00:22:20 ◼   ► that I have no control over.

00:22:22 ◼   ► And I get an occasional email from somebody saying,

00:22:25 ◼   ► hey, I bought premium,

00:22:26 ◼   ► but I'm still hearing ads in my podcasts.

00:22:29 ◼   ► And for every person who's emailed me asking about that,

00:22:31 ◼   ► there are obviously many more who just never email me

00:22:35 ◼   ► who are just disappointed and who just feel ripped off.

00:22:37 ◼   ► And some of them might request a refund,

00:22:39 ◼   ► but most of them probably don't.

00:22:41 ◼   ► And that, and it's uncomfortable for me,

00:22:43 ◼   ► that even though I think I'm doing everything above board

00:22:46 ◼   ► and I'm trying to be as clear as I possibly can be,

00:22:49 ◼   ► there are still areas that I make money

00:22:53 ◼   ► that are kind of wrong or that I shouldn't

00:22:58 ◼   ► really have that money.

00:22:59 ◼   ► And I don't think there's a way to make money

00:23:01 ◼   ► in this business that doesn't have some angle like that.

00:23:04 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I think it's fundamentally like,

00:23:08 ◼   ► the ideal, like the most ethical, ideal situation

00:23:13 ◼   ► is we make something, someone else wants that thing,

00:23:19 ◼   ► and they give us some amount of money

00:23:23 ◼   ► in exchange for that thing.

00:23:24 ◼   ► And they're happy about it, and we're happy about it.

00:23:27 ◼   ► Like, that situation, and I think all of these models

00:23:32 ◼   ► include many of the transactions do fit that model,

00:23:37 ◼   ► that everybody's happy, there's no issue.

00:23:41 ◼   ► And a lot of what these things deal with, I think,

00:23:45 ◼   ► are the, it's what proportion of your users

00:23:50 ◼   ► are falling into that group, into that category,

00:23:53 ◼   ► that they're getting a fair utility for the money

00:23:58 ◼   ► that they're parting with.

00:24:00 ◼   ► And many of the sort of like, the ethical questions

00:24:06 ◼   ► come to like, well, what is your tolerance

00:24:09 ◼   ► for that not being the case?

00:24:11 ◼   ► Because like you said, and even things

00:24:14 ◼   ► that superficially seem like that is exactly what it is,

00:24:17 ◼   ► you can't control people misunderstanding

00:24:19 ◼   ► what you're gonna do.

00:24:21 ◼   ► I mean, you can intentionally be making them

00:24:24 ◼   ► a misunderstanding, which is sort of more like

00:24:26 ◼   ► the dark patterny kind of thing,

00:24:28 ◼   ► but no matter how perfect your marketing copy is,

00:24:31 ◼   ► no matter how big the button is, or the text is,

00:24:34 ◼   ► or whatever it is, someone is going to be confused.

00:24:37 ◼   ► And it's a question, I think, of the degree to which

00:24:39 ◼   ► you are, you know, you're tolerant of that confusion,

00:24:42 ◼   ► of the people who are doing something,

00:24:43 ◼   ► who are, you know, parting with money

00:24:47 ◼   ► for a reason that is not what they expect,

00:24:49 ◼   ► or not something that they are happy with after the fact.

00:24:52 ◼   ► And like, that's complicated, it's nuanced, it's messy,

00:24:56 ◼   ► it's not something that I think is super straightforward.

00:24:59 ◼   ► And it's, you know, it's the, like, you can imagine

00:25:03 ◼   ► a world where say, any purchase in your application

00:25:07 ◼   ► requires like a five step, like, are you sure?

00:25:10 ◼   ► Are you really sure?

00:25:11 ◼   ► Like, this is what you're getting,

00:25:12 ◼   ► this is what you're, you know, you're parting with,

00:25:14 ◼   ► like, you know, I'm gonna wait five,

00:25:15 ◼   ► I'm gonna wait 10 seconds before the button's enabled

00:25:18 ◼   ► for you to push it, like, you could imagine a scenario

00:25:20 ◼   ► where like, that's what you do to make sure people

00:25:22 ◼   ► are like absolutely sure, but like, that's really annoying

00:25:25 ◼   ► for people who know what they want,

00:25:26 ◼   ► and is probably bad for business, and like,

00:25:29 ◼   ► it gets into these very complicated things.

00:25:31 ◼   ► And I think, the more I think about this type of topic,

00:25:34 ◼   ► it becomes a question of like, the important thing

00:25:37 ◼   ► as developers is for us to be thoughtful

00:25:40 ◼   ► about these choices that we're making,

00:25:43 ◼   ► that they're intentional choices, like, hopefully,

00:25:45 ◼   ► you're making like choices for good, not for evil.

00:25:47 ◼   ► Like, and you're, at least you've thought about this,

00:25:51 ◼   ► that you've thought like, whenever you have an opportunity

00:25:54 ◼   ► to ask, you know, ask for money from somebody,

00:25:58 ◼   ► that you try and imagine all the different things

00:26:01 ◼   ► that people could be confused by,

00:26:02 ◼   ► that you try and think about the implications

00:26:04 ◼   ► and the sort of, the implied, what, you know,

00:26:08 ◼   ► sort of implied agreements you're kind of,

00:26:10 ◼   ► people could be thinking that they're entering into,

00:26:12 ◼   ► and you're thoughtful about it, and like,

00:26:14 ◼   ► that's I think how we do this ethically,

00:26:17 ◼   ► is to have consideration there, and make sure

00:26:20 ◼   ► that our choices are as best aligned to our values

00:26:23 ◼   ► as we can, knowing that we're never gonna get it,

00:26:26 ◼   ► it's never gonna be perfect.

00:26:27 ◼   ► There's always gonna be people who buy something

00:26:30 ◼   ► and then regret it, people who buy something

00:26:32 ◼   ► and not think that they're gonna,

00:26:33 ◼   ► that they actually were buying it,

00:26:34 ◼   ► or that they were getting a free trial, like,

00:26:36 ◼   ► those should hopefully be the exception,

00:26:40 ◼   ► you know, rather than the rule.

00:26:41 ◼   ► Whereas, you know, clearly in the example of the apps

00:26:43 ◼   ► that we talked about at the beginning of the show,

00:26:46 ◼   ► the intention was to mislead, the intention was to

00:26:50 ◼   ► take advantage of these sort of deficits

00:26:53 ◼   ► in the way that the app store is structured,

00:26:55 ◼   ► and the way that the in-app purchase system is structured,

00:26:58 ◼   ► you know, they were abusing those to take advantage

00:27:00 ◼   ► of people in a way that is, I think there are very few

00:27:03 ◼   ► people who are happy that they've been spending

00:27:07 ◼   ► $156 a year on their QR scanner.

00:27:10 ◼   ► Maybe they exist, but I don't think

00:27:12 ◼   ► that's a very high proportion.

00:27:14 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, some degree of some of this discomfort,

00:27:19 ◼   ► I think is totally unavoidable.

00:27:21 ◼   ► But you can choose how much of it you're willing to take.

00:27:25 ◼   ► And, you know, some of this might depend on your situation.

00:27:27 ◼   ► Like, if you're somewhere really desperate for money,

00:27:30 ◼   ► and this money is like supporting your whole family,

00:27:32 ◼   ► that makes things more complicated.

00:27:34 ◼   ► But I think there are ethical ways,

00:27:37 ◼   ► there's enough ethical ways to make money

00:27:40 ◼   ► that I think most people aren't finding themselves

00:27:42 ◼   ► in that situation.

00:27:43 ◼   ► And if you are able to make money in the app store,

00:27:47 ◼   ► if you have the resources and the talent to make an app

00:27:50 ◼   ► that can somehow make money,

00:27:52 ◼   ► I think you also can make it do so ethically.

00:27:55 ◼   ► And so I encourage people to,

00:27:57 ◼   ► not only to be on the right side of that,

00:27:59 ◼   ► but also to think about all this,

00:28:01 ◼   ► even from design perspectives.

00:28:03 ◼   ► Like, you know, I need to rethink

00:28:05 ◼   ► how I present Overcast Premium,

00:28:06 ◼   ► because there are people who buy it

00:28:07 ◼   ► who think it's gonna remove podcast ads.

00:28:09 ◼   ► Like, I need to think about that

00:28:10 ◼   ► and see if I can address that.

00:28:12 ◼   ► There's all sorts of things like that,

00:28:13 ◼   ► where it's important to,

00:28:15 ◼   ► when things are in your control,

00:28:17 ◼   ► make it easy for people to get refunds,

00:28:19 ◼   ► make it easy for people to do returns, stuff like that.

00:28:20 ◼   ► And then for things that are out of your control,

00:28:22 ◼   ► like app store stuff,

00:28:24 ◼   ► try to make your designs as clear and friendly as possible

00:28:28 ◼   ► for people to do the right thing,

00:28:30 ◼   ► and to be happy with their purchase,

00:28:32 ◼   ► and to be clear on what they're paying you and why.

00:28:36 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I think, I can also, I think to close this out,

00:28:38 ◼   ► just noting that there have been times where,

00:28:43 ◼   ► like it's hard to see people,

00:28:46 ◼   ► like there have been times when it was harder

00:28:48 ◼   ► for me to make a living in the app store.

00:28:49 ◼   ► And then you see people who are doing dubious things

00:28:52 ◼   ► and making good money in the app store,

00:28:54 ◼   ► like good in the sense of lots of it,

00:28:56 ◼   ► not in terms of ethically good.

00:28:57 ◼   ► And I think the thing that I will say is that

00:29:01 ◼   ► holding to good ethics

00:29:04 ◼   ► has been a excellent long-term strategy,

00:29:07 ◼   ► that any of these things are,

00:29:09 ◼   ► like any of these things, when they start to become scams

00:29:12 ◼   ► and problematic things,

00:29:13 ◼   ► and you're taking advantage of people

00:29:14 ◼   ► or exploiting flaws in the app store,

00:29:17 ◼   ► those aren't things that are gonna lead

00:29:19 ◼   ► to a long-term viable business.

00:29:20 ◼   ► Like doing something in an ethical, trustworthy way

00:29:23 ◼   ► will work much better in the long run.

00:29:26 ◼   ► And I think it's just an encouragement to anybody

00:29:27 ◼   ► who's sort of seeing these things and like,

00:29:29 ◼   ► oh man, like I could have made that money.

00:29:31 ◼   ► It's like, if you wanna build a long-term business

00:29:33 ◼   ► that's gonna have people, customers who trust you

00:29:36 ◼   ► and want to continue supporting you

00:29:38 ◼   ► and to build a business that'll last a long time,

00:29:40 ◼   ► doing it in an ethical, thoughtful way

00:29:43 ◼   ► is gonna be much more successful.

00:29:45 ◼   ► - Thanks for listening, and we'll talk to you next week.

00:29:47 ◼   ► - Bye.

00:29:48 ◼   ► [