Under the Radar

00:00:00 ◼   ► - Welcome to Under the Radar,

00:00:01 ◼   ► a show about independent iOS app development.

00:00:04 ◼   ► I'm Mark Warmant.

00:00:05 ◼   ► - And I'm David Smith.

00:00:06 ◼   ► Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes,

00:00:07 ◼   ► so let's get started.

00:00:09 ◼   ► - So Dave, I noticed that on Twitter,

00:00:11 ◼   ► you posted about creating a new app

00:00:14 ◼   ► in App Store Connect.

00:00:16 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:00:17 ◼   ► - I think if people were to make a cartoon character of you,

00:00:20 ◼   ► it would be somebody who pushed this button every two hours.

00:00:24 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:00:25 ◼   ► - But the reality is, you've had way fewer

00:00:28 ◼   ► of these opportunities in the last couple years.

00:00:30 ◼   ► You've focused down in the last few years

00:00:32 ◼   ► and you've made very few new apps

00:00:34 ◼   ► relative to what you used to do.

00:00:37 ◼   ► So I really am very interested to hear,

00:00:39 ◼   ► what's the story behind this?

00:00:40 ◼   ► And I can't wait to hear, if you're ready to share,

00:00:43 ◼   ► what the app is or will be.

00:00:45 ◼   ► - Sure, so yeah.

00:00:46 ◼   ► I mean, it is a strange thing that for,

00:00:50 ◼   ► I would say if I'm sort of known for anything

00:00:52 ◼   ► in independent app development,

00:00:53 ◼   ► is for being prolific rather than necessarily

00:00:56 ◼   ► having one app that I focus all my time and energy

00:00:58 ◼   ► and effort on, my approach from the early days,

00:01:03 ◼   ► it's like now 10 1/2 years later,

00:01:06 ◼   ► was like my early days, I just wanted to keep

00:01:09 ◼   ► generating ideas, putting them in the app store

00:01:11 ◼   ► and seeing what worked.

00:01:12 ◼   ► It's just like trying the,

00:01:14 ◼   ► because the market was so new and young,

00:01:17 ◼   ► it seemed it worked reasonably well

00:01:19 ◼   ► that there's just so much sort of greenfield opportunity.

00:01:23 ◼   ► And the more I can have different stakes

00:01:27 ◼   ► in all these different places,

00:01:28 ◼   ► the more likely it is that one of them

00:01:29 ◼   ► is going to get traction.

00:01:32 ◼   ► And eventually, I suppose that worked

00:01:34 ◼   ► to the degree that a few things did get traction.

00:01:36 ◼   ► And then it became harder and trickier

00:01:39 ◼   ► to justify making new apps because the maintenance

00:01:42 ◼   ► and effort focusing on the ones that had become successful

00:01:46 ◼   ► made more sense.

00:01:47 ◼   ► And I think that's a process that I think generally

00:01:49 ◼   ► has worked for me where the last couple years,

00:01:53 ◼   ► I really haven't launched any major new apps.

00:01:55 ◼   ► And I actually looked up the data on it,

00:01:57 ◼   ► and it's been 2 1/4 years since I launched my last new app,

00:02:02 ◼   ► which was Workouts++.

00:02:04 ◼   ► - Do you have like a MacRumors Buyer's Guide kind of thing?

00:02:07 ◼   ► - It's just getting too, it started to turn red.

00:02:09 ◼   ► - It's been 750 days since I last created a new app.

00:02:12 ◼   ► - I don't have something quite like that,

00:02:15 ◼   ► but I have one of those in my mind, I think.

00:02:18 ◼   ► 'Cause a big reason why I finally decided,

00:02:20 ◼   ► you know, I just need to make something new,

00:02:22 ◼   ► is that I think it had been too long.

00:02:24 ◼   ► And there is something intrinsically different

00:02:28 ◼   ► in making something new and from scratch

00:02:32 ◼   ► than there is from working on like version five

00:02:35 ◼   ► of a mature, you know, like main app,

00:02:39 ◼   ► something that is my bread and butter,

00:02:40 ◼   ► something that is like, you know,

00:02:41 ◼   ► it's still the core part of my business,

00:02:43 ◼   ► working on version five, which is coincidentally like

00:02:46 ◼   ► in the middle of this, I've been working on this major update

00:02:48 ◼   ► to pedometer++, which is my main app,

00:02:50 ◼   ► which is like my primary business.

00:02:52 ◼   ► But I've been working on this big update.

00:02:54 ◼   ► And in the middle of that, it just had this feeling

00:02:56 ◼   ► that like, you know, I just, I feel like I'm,

00:02:59 ◼   ► it's like I have this muscle

00:03:00 ◼   ► that I just haven't been working out anymore.

00:03:02 ◼   ► And I feel like it's atrophying over time.

00:03:04 ◼   ► And I feel like I wanna work it out a little bit.

00:03:06 ◼   ► Because we're creating something totally from scratch.

00:03:09 ◼   ► It's just different.

00:03:10 ◼   ► Like you're solving a completely new set of problems.

00:03:13 ◼   ► You're having to deal with all kinds of new things

00:03:16 ◼   ► in terms of the marketing of it, the name of it.

00:03:19 ◼   ► You know, how you're going to design it technically

00:03:21 ◼   ► and visually.

00:03:22 ◼   ► Are you going to, how you're gonna create

00:03:24 ◼   ► all kinds of aspects of that application?

00:03:27 ◼   ► These are things that you just don't have to think about.

00:03:28 ◼   ► You know, like I know the name of these apps that exist

00:03:31 ◼   ► and I know how they work.

00:03:33 ◼   ► And if anything, there's a, like a actual force on me

00:03:38 ◼   ► to not make too dramatic and drastic of changes.

00:03:41 ◼   ► Because if I make big drastic changes,

00:03:44 ◼   ► I'm gonna potentially alienate my existing user base

00:03:47 ◼   ► or cause problems with, you know, my existing people.

00:03:50 ◼   ► And I don't wanna do that.

00:03:51 ◼   ► But, so anyway, so I kind of feel like I need to sort of,

00:03:55 ◼   ► I don't know, maybe it's like scratch the itch

00:03:57 ◼   ► or work out that muscle.

00:03:58 ◼   ► Whatever the, like the analogy that works for somebody.

00:04:00 ◼   ► But it's like for me, I just needed to do something.

00:04:02 ◼   ► And there wasn't anything like specific

00:04:04 ◼   ► that prompted me to do that.

00:04:05 ◼   ► There was this vague sense that I had a little idea

00:04:09 ◼   ► and an opportunity related to, I've been doing some work

00:04:12 ◼   ► and I'll just sort of briefly talk about,

00:04:14 ◼   ► at a high level what the app does,

00:04:16 ◼   ► is I was doing some work in pedometer++

00:04:18 ◼   ► related to time zones.

00:04:19 ◼   ► And as a result of that,

00:04:21 ◼   ► I had to compile a list of time zones.

00:04:24 ◼   ► I think I mentioned this in our embedded data episode.

00:04:27 ◼   ► And so as a result of that, I have this like very sort of,

00:04:31 ◼   ► I have a nice comprehensive time zone list of places

00:04:35 ◼   ► and how time zones work and did a lot of work

00:04:37 ◼   ► with NSTimeZone to understand how time zone working,

00:04:40 ◼   ► things work.

00:04:41 ◼   ► And I was like, I've had this idea for a time zone app,

00:04:44 ◼   ► you know, sort of a utility comparison app for a long time

00:04:47 ◼   ► that sort of is a combination of a calendar

00:04:49 ◼   ► and a time zone converter, essentially.

00:04:52 ◼   ► And it's an idea that I've had for a long time

00:04:55 ◼   ► that I never, you know, in my long list of app ideas,

00:04:58 ◼   ► I'd always had this thing sitting there.

00:05:00 ◼   ► And I finally was like, well, I have all this like,

00:05:03 ◼   ► I did the hard part for pedometer++.

00:05:07 ◼   ► Like I've done all the grunt work of working out how,

00:05:09 ◼   ► you know, all the cities in the world

00:05:11 ◼   ► and how to have a reasonable way to deal

00:05:13 ◼   ► with time zones between them.

00:05:14 ◼   ► So what if I just try making it?

00:05:16 ◼   ► And that's what I did and that's kind of how I started.

00:05:18 ◼   ► And, you know, it's just sort of growing from there.

00:05:23 ◼   ► I think there's a variety of things that go into like

00:05:25 ◼   ► why ultimately I went beyond to the just like,

00:05:28 ◼   ► sometimes I've done the, I just like have an idea,

00:05:31 ◼   ► I'll spend an afternoon, I'll make something

00:05:32 ◼   ► and I'll throw it away.

00:05:34 ◼   ► There's a few reasons why I'll sort of get into later

00:05:36 ◼   ► about why I think this actually made sense for me to decide

00:05:39 ◼   ► to keep developing it.

00:05:40 ◼   ► But that's sort of like the start of why I started making

00:05:44 ◼   ► any app, you know, after I guess now two and a half years

00:05:46 ◼   ► or two and a quarter years since doing it for the last time.

00:05:50 ◼   ► - That makes total sense to me.

00:05:52 ◼   ► Like wanting to exercise that muscle

00:05:54 ◼   ► and wanting to do a new thing every once in a while.

00:05:56 ◼   ► I mean, I don't do it nearly as often as you do,

00:05:59 ◼   ► even your current rate.

00:06:01 ◼   ► I can't even approach that.

00:06:02 ◼   ► But it's so much fun to create something new.

00:06:05 ◼   ► Like, you know, sometimes I get into this rut

00:06:08 ◼   ► with whatever my current primary app is

00:06:11 ◼   ► where, you know, maintaining an established app,

00:06:16 ◼   ► there are parts of it that are fun.

00:06:17 ◼   ► Like when you're working on new stuff

00:06:19 ◼   ► or you're adopting new hardware features

00:06:22 ◼   ► that just became available or whatever else.

00:06:25 ◼   ► But there are parts of it that are really much more

00:06:26 ◼   ► of a grind and it's like doing massive technical debt payoffs

00:06:31 ◼   ► or just like doing certain parts of the UI

00:06:35 ◼   ► that you have to do that are kind of unfun to work on

00:06:39 ◼   ► or things like that.

00:06:40 ◼   ► And there's always an infinite amount

00:06:43 ◼   ► of potential refinement and updates and maintenance

00:06:47 ◼   ► that you can do to an established app.

00:06:49 ◼   ► Like that will never end.

00:06:51 ◼   ► There's whatever amount of time that you are willing

00:06:54 ◼   ► to devote to update an existing app,

00:06:56 ◼   ► it will consume that time.

00:06:58 ◼   ► Like there's no limit to it.

00:07:00 ◼   ► And so it's really easy to get bogged down

00:07:03 ◼   ► in just maintenance forever of an app that is very unfun.

00:07:09 ◼   ► I kind of, I address this in part by treating myself

00:07:14 ◼   ► to fun new features even when the market

00:07:16 ◼   ► doesn't demand them.

00:07:17 ◼   ► This is not a good use of my time, mind you,

00:07:18 ◼   ► but like, you know, I'll work on things,

00:07:21 ◼   ► like my low level audio stuff in Voice Boost 2.

00:07:24 ◼   ► Like I'll work on stuff where like the market

00:07:26 ◼   ► really isn't telling me that I need to do Voice Boost 2.

00:07:29 ◼   ► Nothing, like there's nothing about my user base

00:07:31 ◼   ► or competitive pressures or anything like that

00:07:35 ◼   ► that tells me that I should spend months

00:07:37 ◼   ► working on new low level audio code

00:07:40 ◼   ► to replace my existing low level audio code

00:07:42 ◼   ► that's worked fine for four years.

00:07:43 ◼   ► And there's also not gonna likely be a huge payoff

00:07:48 ◼   ► when I finish it.

00:07:49 ◼   ► Like there's not gonna, I'm not gonna suddenly

00:07:50 ◼   ► make twice as much money when I ship Voice Boost 2.

00:07:54 ◼   ► Like it's not gonna be a thing.

00:07:55 ◼   ► But I do it because if I just spent all this time

00:07:59 ◼   ► doing everyone's like, you know, little pet features

00:08:02 ◼   ► that are kind of boring to implement if I'm honest,

00:08:06 ◼   ► or you know, or back end work or you know,

00:08:09 ◼   ► refining the design yet again to do, you know,

00:08:11 ◼   ► yet another adaptation of some other screen

00:08:14 ◼   ► to some other trend or fashion or whatever else.

00:08:16 ◼   ► Like that stuff's all really boring after a while.

00:08:19 ◼   ► And so like I have to treat myself to fun things.

00:08:21 ◼   ► And sometimes that fun thing can be a new app altogether.

00:08:24 ◼   ► And sometimes that fun thing could be a feature

00:08:25 ◼   ► that is not gonna really pay off.

00:08:28 ◼   ► Either way, it's a terrible use of your time economically,

00:08:32 ◼   ► but it is often a good use of, you know,

00:08:35 ◼   ► maintaining yourself, avoiding burnout,

00:08:37 ◼   ► doing things to make yourself happy and so on.

00:08:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I think too that it's like,

00:08:42 ◼   ► it's this funny tension between like the advantage

00:08:44 ◼   ► of doing it the approach you're doing now

00:08:46 ◼   ► where you are creating the opportunity to feel

00:08:51 ◼   ► like you're working on something fresh

00:08:52 ◼   ► inside of your main app, inside of you know,

00:08:56 ◼   ► your actual like, your day job app essentially.

00:08:59 ◼   ► - Right.

00:09:00 ◼   ► - We're working like finding a way

00:09:02 ◼   ► to make that work inside of that.

00:09:03 ◼   ► - I mean it has a lot of advantages in the sense

00:09:06 ◼   ► that it still feels fresh, but it you know,

00:09:10 ◼   ► furthers and develops the main thing that you know,

00:09:14 ◼   ► sort of most of your you know,

00:09:15 ◼   ► efforts should probably be going to.

00:09:17 ◼   ► Like the danger and the thing that I have had to more,

00:09:19 ◼   ► sort of in the back of my mind this whole time

00:09:21 ◼   ► is the sense that I don't wanna stretch myself too thin.

00:09:26 ◼   ► And like, sort of like starting a war on a new front.

00:09:28 ◼   ► Like that is problematic and tricky.

00:09:32 ◼   ► And I think that's the big risk of doing something like this

00:09:34 ◼   ► where if you wanna make a new app,

00:09:38 ◼   ► and sort of work on something new, work on something fresh,

00:09:40 ◼   ► have that kind of that fun experience,

00:09:43 ◼   ► but in so doing, you're going to create this whole new

00:09:48 ◼   ► sort of set of sort of worries and challenges

00:09:52 ◼   ► and customer support and management.

00:09:55 ◼   ► Like that is the tension there.

00:09:57 ◼   ► And there have been a number of apps over the last two years

00:10:00 ◼   ► that I've thought of making and then didn't do ultimately

00:10:03 ◼   ► because I thought that the support and management and update

00:10:08 ◼   ► and the user data requirements were just gonna be too high.

00:10:12 ◼   ► And I think what I decided like ultimately

00:10:15 ◼   ► about this app that I'm working on is I didn't,

00:10:18 ◼   ► I was only gonna work on it if it was something

00:10:20 ◼   ► that I thought could be you know, self-contained,

00:10:23 ◼   ► doesn't involve a server component at all,

00:10:25 ◼   ► doesn't involve anything that I'm doing

00:10:28 ◼   ► that would deal with like precious user data

00:10:33 ◼   ► in the sense that I'm not, you know,

00:10:36 ◼   ► like if you, for some, somehow you lost your list of places

00:10:39 ◼   ► that you had time zones displayed for,

00:10:41 ◼   ► like not a huge loss.

00:10:43 ◼   ► Like I've had a few ideas over the years

00:10:44 ◼   ► for like working with like making a camera app, for example.

00:10:47 ◼   ► Like I've thought about that and I've kind of gone down

00:10:50 ◼   ► the road a little bit with some interesting ideas

00:10:51 ◼   ► that I thought I had around cameras.

00:10:53 ◼   ► But at the end, like the things that I start to worry about

00:10:55 ◼   ► is like if I, what happens if I have a bug

00:10:59 ◼   ► that means that someone took a picture of a moment

00:11:02 ◼   ► that then for some reason didn't save correctly

00:11:05 ◼   ► and that moment is lost.

00:11:06 ◼   ► Like the stakes and the risk becomes so high

00:11:10 ◼   ► that that becomes worrying.

00:11:12 ◼   ► And the amount of effort and quality assurance

00:11:14 ◼   ► and just like intensity that that application

00:11:18 ◼   ► would sort of demand and deserve is so much higher

00:11:21 ◼   ► than something that I wanted to do.

00:11:23 ◼   ► Which so like when I'm looking at this,

00:11:24 ◼   ► it's like I want an app that is completely self-contained.

00:11:27 ◼   ► No server component, it just is something

00:11:29 ◼   ► that you would download from the App Store,

00:11:31 ◼   ► you would use on your phone if in this case

00:11:33 ◼   ► I'm taking advantage of the event kit APIs,

00:11:36 ◼   ► which mean that like Apple has done all of the hard work

00:11:39 ◼   ► of interacting with calendar servers

00:11:42 ◼   ► and syncing all that data and managing it.

00:11:45 ◼   ► Like I don't have to do any of that.

00:11:46 ◼   ► That's a great thing that Apple has just provided

00:11:48 ◼   ► that I can, once I've asked the user

00:11:50 ◼   ► to have access to their calendar,

00:11:52 ◼   ► I can read their data, I can write to that data,

00:11:55 ◼   ► but I'm not doing the syncing.

00:11:56 ◼   ► I'm not doing the management of that.

00:11:58 ◼   ► I'm just presenting it and allowing you

00:12:01 ◼   ► to do some basic edits to it.

00:12:03 ◼   ► And so I looked for a project that sort of fit that criteria

00:12:07 ◼   ► and I think in general that's probably good advice

00:12:09 ◼   ► that if you're gonna start something

00:12:11 ◼   ► that isn't going to be your main focus intentionally.

00:12:14 ◼   ► Like I have no expectation of this app

00:12:16 ◼   ► ever being my main app.

00:12:18 ◼   ► If anything, I have very modest hopes for it

00:12:21 ◼   ► in terms of on the financial or user-based side.

00:12:24 ◼   ► I think it's a fairly targeted thing

00:12:26 ◼   ► for a very specific kind of user and that's fine.

00:12:30 ◼   ► It doesn't need to be this runaway success

00:12:33 ◼   ► for it to be a useful thing that I've done and experienced,

00:12:36 ◼   ► but it just needs to maybe sort of like pay for my time

00:12:40 ◼   ► kind of a thing.

00:12:41 ◼   ► But it's good to think about it in those terms

00:12:44 ◼   ► that it's not gonna be something that is gonna require

00:12:47 ◼   ► huge amounts of support going down the road.

00:12:49 ◼   ► Every up version of the iOS update

00:12:52 ◼   ► or like say the example of a camera app,

00:12:54 ◼   ► like every time there's a new device,

00:12:56 ◼   ► you would actually expect there to be major work

00:12:59 ◼   ► you need to do potentially to make sure that it works well

00:13:01 ◼   ► on the new devices with new cameras, new systems.

00:13:04 ◼   ► Like whereas if it's just a bunch of UI views

00:13:07 ◼   ► that are reading from one of the oldest system frameworks,

00:13:11 ◼   ► it's probably not gonna change very much.

00:13:12 ◼   ► It's not gonna change in ways that are like fundamental

00:13:15 ◼   ► and require like weeks of weeks of work.

00:13:18 ◼   ► It's gonna be much more like huh,

00:13:19 ◼   ► they've created a new screen size,

00:13:21 ◼   ► let me make sure it looks okay.

00:13:22 ◼   ► Yeah, it looks okay, let me change this value a little bit.

00:13:25 ◼   ► We're done.

00:13:26 ◼   ► That's much, much better as a side project

00:13:29 ◼   ► as something that I can sort of commit to my users

00:13:31 ◼   ► that I'm gonna keep up to date,

00:13:33 ◼   ► but do so in a way that is not gonna crush me over time.

00:13:37 ◼   ► - Yeah, 'cause the last thing you need is more apps

00:13:40 ◼   ► that require your attention all at the same time every fall.

00:13:45 ◼   ► Or like every summer during the beta period.

00:13:47 ◼   ► 'Cause you already have, the last thing you need is more.

00:13:50 ◼   ► There was a wonderful blog post by Dave Weiner

00:13:53 ◼   ► years and years and years ago now

00:13:55 ◼   ► where he was saying how like a second car

00:13:58 ◼   ► sounds like a lot of fun.

00:13:59 ◼   ► Like oh, I could have like a little car

00:14:00 ◼   ► for the weekends or whatever,

00:14:02 ◼   ► and hey, that could be a lot of fun to drive.

00:14:03 ◼   ► And then he's like, but two cars also,

00:14:06 ◼   ► another car is another car that you have to maintain.

00:14:10 ◼   ► It's another car that you have to register

00:14:12 ◼   ► and get emissions tested every year or two.

00:14:15 ◼   ► And it's like there's all this overhead

00:14:16 ◼   ► of just having any car that like,

00:14:19 ◼   ► it becomes a lot less fun 'cause you have to maintain

00:14:21 ◼   ► all these boring things or all these like,

00:14:22 ◼   ► you know, time consuming or expensive things.

00:14:24 ◼   ► And like having more apps,

00:14:26 ◼   ► there's a lot of that kind of to it where it's like,

00:14:29 ◼   ► one more app in the store that you have out there

00:14:32 ◼   ► is one more app that can not only generate support requests

00:14:36 ◼   ► and have people have a problem with it in some way

00:14:38 ◼   ► and complain to you or leave one-star reviews,

00:14:40 ◼   ► but can also be like, that's one more app

00:14:42 ◼   ► that every time there's a new iOS screen size,

00:14:45 ◼   ► that's one more app you have to update.

00:14:47 ◼   ► That's one more app that every time there's a new

00:14:48 ◼   ► like bit transition or API transition

00:14:52 ◼   ► or other incompatibility as time goes on,

00:14:55 ◼   ► you're gonna have something that's going to affect

00:14:57 ◼   ► all of your apps, this is one more app in that list.

00:14:59 ◼   ► And so you really have to like go into it

00:15:02 ◼   ► fairly conservatively.

00:15:04 ◼   ► You know, there's certain complexities that you can't avoid,

00:15:06 ◼   ► things like you know, screen size changes and everything.

00:15:08 ◼   ► At least try to minimize the ones you can control,

00:15:11 ◼   ► like what you just said, like you know,

00:15:12 ◼   ► minimizing you know, no server component,

00:15:14 ◼   ► little need for support, little need for user data entry

00:15:17 ◼   ► or protection, things like that.

00:15:19 ◼   ► And that's, I think that's very wise.

00:15:21 ◼   ► So I really wanna hear what this app is,

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00:17:15 ◼   ► All right, Dave, what's the app?

00:17:16 ◼   ► - Yeah, so it's, like I said,

00:17:17 ◼   ► it involves time zones and calendaring.

00:17:20 ◼   ► So those are the two, like--

00:17:21 ◼   ► - I was trying to figure out what this could really,

00:17:23 ◼   ► is it like, at first when you said time zones,

00:17:24 ◼   ► like maybe you made a better world clock,

00:17:26 ◼   ► 'cause the world clock apps out there are garbage.

00:17:28 ◼   ► And I'm like, wait a minute, but calendars,

00:17:30 ◼   ► how does that work, so, hmm.

00:17:32 ◼   ► - And I think this is always one of those funny things

00:17:33 ◼   ► where, in some ways I kind of love

00:17:35 ◼   ► that the app store is full at this point.

00:17:37 ◼   ► Like, you know, it's like people, there was a while

00:17:40 ◼   ► where it was an important thing that Apple would yell about

00:17:43 ◼   ► is how many apps there were in the store.

00:17:45 ◼   ► They haven't mentioned that in a long time.

00:17:47 ◼   ► And if anything, they are actively working

00:17:49 ◼   ► to reduce the number of apps in the store now.

00:17:51 ◼   ► Like, that is something that they are specifically

00:17:54 ◼   ► pruning out, like old or problematic, or all kinds of,

00:17:57 ◼   ► there's all kinds of things that they are, like,

00:17:58 ◼   ► taking out apps now.

00:17:59 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I think that's really better.

00:18:01 ◼   ► - Yeah, and that's, like, because it's full.

00:18:03 ◼   ► Like, I mean, I think for like, a concept,

00:18:05 ◼   ► like conceptually, like, there is not much space

00:18:07 ◼   ► that hasn't been explored at this point.

00:18:10 ◼   ► Like, just the nature of, like, the creativity of the world

00:18:13 ◼   ► has been applied to this problem for 10 years.

00:18:16 ◼   ► And so there's just fewer and fewer new things.

00:18:19 ◼   ► And so I started off, I was like, how could I make a time,

00:18:23 ◼   ► like, you know, a world clock, in terms of, like,

00:18:26 ◼   ► there's a core functionality of, like, I wanna know,

00:18:29 ◼   ► you build, you know, the time in different places

00:18:31 ◼   ► around the world, like the classic,

00:18:32 ◼   ► kind of like, world clock problem.

00:18:34 ◼   ► But I wanna do that in a different and more interesting way.

00:18:37 ◼   ► And for me, what it came down to is I wanted to,

00:18:39 ◼   ► you know, the app is a timeline of the times

00:18:44 ◼   ► in different places over time, rather than instantaneously.

00:18:47 ◼   ► So it's not just the time now, you know,

00:18:50 ◼   ► which is like, you could imagine the classic world clock.

00:18:52 ◼   ► It's like, well, what's the time here,

00:18:53 ◼   ► here, and here right now?

00:18:55 ◼   ► I wanna be able to show that in the future.

00:18:58 ◼   ► And then, as soon as I had the realization

00:19:00 ◼   ► that, like, that's an interesting way to show the data,

00:19:01 ◼   ► it's like, well, then I should also overlay that

00:19:03 ◼   ► with your calendar events, so that you can see

00:19:07 ◼   ► different events in different time zones.

00:19:09 ◼   ► So if you're doing any kind of meeting

00:19:12 ◼   ► or, you know, scheduling of things across time zones,

00:19:16 ◼   ► then suddenly it's easy to see when you're available,

00:19:19 ◼   ► when your meeting is, when your meeting is for you,

00:19:21 ◼   ► versus for the other people in the meeting, et cetera.

00:19:23 ◼   ► And then, you know, you can do things like, you know,

00:19:25 ◼   ► you can edit those events, you can create new events,

00:19:27 ◼   ► and that kind of thing.

00:19:28 ◼   ► And, you know, that's sort of the application.

00:19:31 ◼   ► And it's kind of funny in some ways,

00:19:32 ◼   ► which is, like, it's very straightforward, it's very simple.

00:19:34 ◼   ► And it's simple intentionally, because, like I said,

00:19:37 ◼   ► I don't want this to be something that, like,

00:19:38 ◼   ► overtakes my world.

00:19:40 ◼   ► And it's kind of funny for it to be simple,

00:19:42 ◼   ► because the nature of, like, if I can build this app

00:19:44 ◼   ► in a couple of weeks, then it's a very small moat around it.

00:19:47 ◼   ► You know, I'm not doing something that is hard to reproduce,

00:19:51 ◼   ► so if the kernel of the idea turns out to be, you know,

00:19:54 ◼   ► successful or interesting, then, you know,

00:19:56 ◼   ► it's like other people could potentially copy it

00:19:58 ◼   ► and go forward, but, you know, that's sort of like

00:20:01 ◼   ► the give and take that you have with an application like this

00:20:04 ◼   ► is that if you want to keep it simple,

00:20:06 ◼   ► if you want to do something that, you know,

00:20:09 ◼   ► is relatively straightforward to do,

00:20:12 ◼   ► which is something I want to do,

00:20:13 ◼   ► because I don't want this, I want this to be a project

00:20:15 ◼   ► that I can, you know, finish in a month

00:20:17 ◼   ► rather than several months.

00:20:19 ◼   ► Like, that's kind of the nature of your building

00:20:21 ◼   ► a small moat around you rather than, like,

00:20:23 ◼   ► you know, all the work you did with Smart Speed, say.

00:20:25 ◼   ► Like, it took, you know, years in many ways

00:20:28 ◼   ► for people to approximate what you had done,

00:20:31 ◼   ► because the work you did to do it was difficult,

00:20:34 ◼   ► hard to reproduce, and challenging.

00:20:37 ◼   ► Whereas an app like this, it's not, you know,

00:20:39 ◼   ► it's much more something that exists in,

00:20:42 ◼   ► like, its value exists in potentially it being, you know,

00:20:47 ◼   ► somewhat, well, hopefully, like, nice and polished

00:20:50 ◼   ► and well-marketed, but it isn't, you know,

00:20:52 ◼   ► sort of functionally and strictly unique in that way.

00:20:56 ◼   ► - I feel like there's, first of all,

00:20:58 ◼   ► Smart Speed has been one of the greatest payoffs ever,

00:21:00 ◼   ► because it wasn't as much work as everyone thinks it is.

00:21:03 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:21:04 ◼   ► It really, and I did it, you know, four years ago

00:21:07 ◼   ► and haven't had to touch it since.

00:21:08 ◼   ► Anyway, so I've gotten very well paid off ratio-wise

00:21:11 ◼   ► from, like, effort to moat there.

00:21:14 ◼   ► But I feel like there's actually nothing wrong

00:21:16 ◼   ► with having a low moat or a low wall or,

00:21:20 ◼   ► well, moats go under.

00:21:22 ◼   ► What's the metaphor here?

00:21:22 ◼   ► Is it a shallow moat or a short wall?

00:21:25 ◼   ► - I think it's a shallow moat.

00:21:26 ◼   ► - Okay, so I don't think there's anything wrong

00:21:28 ◼   ► with having a shallow wall here,

00:21:31 ◼   ► because what matters is not can anyone copy your idea,

00:21:36 ◼   ► because the reality is, you know, given enough time,

00:21:38 ◼   ► anybody can copy any idea, right?

00:21:40 ◼   ► What matters is the amount of moat that you have,

00:21:45 ◼   ► proportional to the amount of effort and time

00:21:47 ◼   ► it's gonna take you to make it, right?

00:21:49 ◼   ► 'Cause, like, if you make something

00:21:50 ◼   ► that's really super easy to copy,

00:21:52 ◼   ► if you didn't spend that much time on it,

00:21:55 ◼   ► it really isn't that big of a deal.

00:21:56 ◼   ► Like, it's a bigger problem, like, for example,

00:21:59 ◼   ► Threes and 2048, like, you know,

00:22:01 ◼   ► one of the great app store copying scandals of all time,

00:22:04 ◼   ► right, the Threes app, to get that mechanic right

00:22:08 ◼   ► and to get the look and feel and details

00:22:12 ◼   ► of the implementation right, took them probably

00:22:14 ◼   ► a lot of effort and time to work that out.

00:22:16 ◼   ► But it's a simple enough mechanic

00:22:20 ◼   ► that once it was visible to the world,

00:22:22 ◼   ► it got copied very quickly and easily.

00:22:25 ◼   ► So that was kind of, like, that was a big risk they took

00:22:28 ◼   ► and it didn't really work out that well for them

00:22:30 ◼   ► because it took them a lot of time to build a shallow moat.

00:22:34 ◼   ► Whereas what you're doing, I think, is totally fine.

00:22:36 ◼   ► You are taking a small amount of time

00:22:39 ◼   ► to build a shallow moat.

00:22:40 ◼   ► And so if other people come in and copy it

00:22:42 ◼   ► right after you do it, it isn't that big of a loss

00:22:44 ◼   ► 'cause it didn't take you that long.

00:22:46 ◼   ► And in the, you know, the brief window of time

00:22:49 ◼   ► where you are the only one, or at least you are

00:22:51 ◼   ► the best marketed and most visible one,

00:22:53 ◼   ► you will get your payoff during that time.

00:22:55 ◼   ► And even if someone then comes and copies it a week later,

00:22:58 ◼   ► oh well, you had your time,

00:22:59 ◼   ► it wasn't that big of an investment.

00:23:01 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I think there's a good,

00:23:03 ◼   ► a very good way to look at it.

00:23:04 ◼   ► It's like, there is that ratio between the,

00:23:07 ◼   ► like, it can be sort of complicated emotionally,

00:23:09 ◼   ► but I think from a business and a rationality perspective,

00:23:13 ◼   ► like, it is very good to just think it's,

00:23:14 ◼   ► like, if it only took you, if it only takes you

00:23:17 ◼   ► a couple weeks to build and it takes a couple weeks

00:23:19 ◼   ► for other people to copy what you're doing,

00:23:21 ◼   ► then like, I guess there's like, you know,

00:23:22 ◼   ► imitation is a sincerest form of flattery kind of thing.

00:23:25 ◼   ► Like, well, clearly you were onto something,

00:23:26 ◼   ► clearly that was useful.

00:23:28 ◼   ► But like, other than starting, like,

00:23:30 ◼   ► it's unlikely that you're building something

00:23:31 ◼   ► that is like novel in the way that is truly,

00:23:35 ◼   ► like, transformative and would sort of be reasonable

00:23:38 ◼   ► to feel like should be, should be, you know,

00:23:40 ◼   ► sort of protected in some way.

00:23:41 ◼   ► But the reality is, it's just, it's going to create,

00:23:44 ◼   ► you're gonna create something and it's not gonna,

00:23:45 ◼   ► you know, have that, you know,

00:23:48 ◼   ► it's not gonna be pushed against.

00:23:51 ◼   ► And the nice thing too, I will say,

00:23:52 ◼   ► is that one weird advantage of the App Store

00:23:55 ◼   ► being so mature and so full is that I feel like

00:23:58 ◼   ► the actual impact that copycats can have is,

00:24:02 ◼   ► feels slightly smaller to me now than it used to,

00:24:06 ◼   ► and I think in large part because the,

00:24:09 ◼   ► it's so hard to get any attention in the App Store at all

00:24:15 ◼   ► that if you have some, if you are able to

00:24:18 ◼   ► gather enough attention in the first place to get there,

00:24:22 ◼   ► like someone else either would have to have

00:24:23 ◼   ► a large marketing budget, which for like

00:24:25 ◼   ► a simple utility app seems very unlikely and unusual,

00:24:30 ◼   ► or, you know, sort of just be very lucky and fortunate.

00:24:32 ◼   ► But for the most part, like you have that benefit of like,

00:24:34 ◼   ► discovery is hard enough for everybody that if like,

00:24:37 ◼   ► about three, you know, three people copy your app,

00:24:40 ◼   ► put it in the App Store, like unless they're like

00:24:41 ◼   ► physically copying, you know, copied, like trademark

00:24:43 ◼   ► and those kinds of issues, like they're copying

00:24:44 ◼   ► your name and icon, like they're just copying your idea,

00:24:47 ◼   ► like they're having the uphill battle.

00:24:50 ◼   ► If anything, they have the even harder problem

00:24:52 ◼   ► because they have to convince the people who,

00:24:55 ◼   ► like if you capture the initial like obvious market

00:24:59 ◼   ► of your application in your circle, then like,

00:25:02 ◼   ► there's a group of people who are like excluded from

00:25:05 ◼   ► the potential market for your customers, and so like,

00:25:09 ◼   ► in some ways that's kind of a nice like benefit now,

00:25:12 ◼   ► the App Store being so full and so sort of

00:25:15 ◼   ► difficult to find discovery in,

00:25:17 ◼   ► that if you have anything novel, like it's reasonably likely

00:25:19 ◼   ► that you can get some attention in the press,

00:25:21 ◼   ► maybe get some editorial favor in the App Store team,

00:25:25 ◼   ► and like, if you know, it's unlikely that both of those

00:25:28 ◼   ► people are going to, you know, then like promote,

00:25:31 ◼   ► you know, sort of copycats down the road, so.

00:25:33 ◼   ► Now that's a nice perk of the modern App Store.

00:25:37 ◼   ► - I think also like when you're dealing with this kind of

00:25:40 ◼   ► situation where you have an app that's probably gonna be

00:25:42 ◼   ► copied quickly and easily, you know,

00:25:44 ◼   ► you're dealing with commodities here.

00:25:46 ◼   ► At this point, ideas in the App Store

00:25:48 ◼   ► are commoditized fully, and so you have to compete

00:25:52 ◼   ► accordingly, and so the way to compete in that kind of market

00:25:55 ◼   ► is first of all, I think, you know, design and marketing

00:25:59 ◼   ► are like your two big differentiating features, like,

00:26:02 ◼   ► if you're gonna make a world clock calendar kind of app

00:26:04 ◼   ► and other people already have a similar kind of thing

00:26:06 ◼   ► or can make one very quickly,

00:26:07 ◼   ► you have to win on design and marketing.

00:26:09 ◼   ► Those are your primary tools, but also,

00:26:12 ◼   ► it's important to not leave them space,

00:26:15 ◼   ► and the way you don't leave them space

00:26:17 ◼   ► is to make your app free, because what really killed,

00:26:21 ◼   ► like what was really a big copycat problem early on is,

00:26:24 ◼   ► and especially like with the threes versus 2048 thing,

00:26:26 ◼   ► is the reason why that flipped over so quickly for them

00:26:29 ◼   ► was that threes was paid and 2048 was free,

00:26:31 ◼   ► and a whole lot of people out there

00:26:33 ◼   ► will never consider a paid upfront app,

00:26:35 ◼   ► and so if you get out there first with a free app

00:26:40 ◼   ► that makes money some other way,

00:26:41 ◼   ► whether it's ads or an app purchased for something

00:26:43 ◼   ► or whatever else, if yours is free upfront,

00:26:46 ◼   ► you leave very little room for other people

00:26:49 ◼   ► to take away meaningful market share from you.

00:26:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, and just remove the incentive,

00:26:53 ◼   ► 'cause like the goal someone else is gonna have

00:26:54 ◼   ► is to make more money, so like,

00:26:56 ◼   ► if you're taking out the easy path for them to make money,

00:26:59 ◼   ► like the obvious choice, then like, it's that much easier,

00:27:02 ◼   ► or it's that much less incentive for someone to try.

00:27:06 ◼   ► And one thing I did also wanna mention too is,

00:27:08 ◼   ► something else I went into my thought process

00:27:10 ◼   ► when I was deciding I wanted to make an app is that

00:27:12 ◼   ► I decided that it was something that,

00:27:14 ◼   ► whatever app I made that was new,

00:27:16 ◼   ► needed to be something that would fit into

00:27:19 ◼   ► Apple's movement towards Marzipan,

00:27:22 ◼   ► or whatever you wanna project, Sneak Peek,

00:27:23 ◼   ► like whatever you wanna call that,

00:27:24 ◼   ► the movement towards iOS finding its way onto the Mac,

00:27:27 ◼   ► I wanted to have an app that would fit into that ecosystem,

00:27:32 ◼   ► both from a, you know, as someone who's just a,

00:27:35 ◼   ► like, I don't even know, like,

00:27:37 ◼   ► I wanna make sure that I have an opportunity to explore

00:27:40 ◼   ► all of the aspects of Apple development,

00:27:41 ◼   ► that if they're working on something new,

00:27:43 ◼   ► I wanna have something to do there,

00:27:45 ◼   ► as well as, like, there's always, in my experience,

00:27:47 ◼   ► it's been a good thing to kind of be on board with Apple

00:27:51 ◼   ► as they're heading in a new direction,

00:27:53 ◼   ► that, like, whether or not that's perfect from the start

00:27:56 ◼   ► or whatever, you know, see the Apple Watch,

00:27:57 ◼   ► like, I've benefited in the long run

00:28:00 ◼   ► by being on the Apple Watch at the beginning,

00:28:02 ◼   ► is benefiting me now, later on,

00:28:05 ◼   ► as the platform has matured, and I've kind of worked through

00:28:07 ◼   ► all of the rough parts at the beginning,

00:28:09 ◼   ► but, you know, it's like, you can,

00:28:11 ◼   ► the only way you can have, you know, several years

00:28:13 ◼   ► of experience with something is to, you know,

00:28:15 ◼   ► to start early, and so, that was something

00:28:18 ◼   ► that I also thought of, and I, like, you know,

00:28:19 ◼   ► World Clock, time, you know, time zone calculator,

00:28:22 ◼   ► calendar app, would work just as well on the Mac

00:28:26 ◼   ► and the iPad and the iPhone, and so, you know,

00:28:28 ◼   ► an event kit exists on all those platforms,

00:28:30 ◼   ► so it also just seemed like a good fit,

00:28:32 ◼   ► and I just wanted to mention that, too,

00:28:33 ◼   ► is, like, something to keep in the back of your mind,

00:28:36 ◼   ► kind of going into this fall, when I think that,

00:28:38 ◼   ► you know, the cross-platform SDKs are gonna be coming out,

00:28:42 ◼   ► have it, if you're starting something

00:28:44 ◼   ► that could work well in that, there might be some,

00:28:47 ◼   ► you know, some benefit to that,

00:28:49 ◼   ► who knows exactly what that would look like,

00:28:51 ◼   ► but I always kind of keep that in the back of my mind,

00:28:53 ◼   ► that if I'm on board with whatever Apple's doing,

00:28:56 ◼   ► it's gonna be better for me than to be

00:28:57 ◼   ► working counter to that.

00:28:59 ◼   ► - Definitely.

00:29:00 ◼   ► All right, well, I look forward to seeing this app.

00:29:02 ◼   ► I can't wait to time my zones.

00:29:05 ◼   ► - There you go.

00:29:06 ◼   ► - Thank you for listening, everybody,

00:29:07 ◼   ► and we'll talk to you in two weeks.

00:29:09 ◼   ► - Bye.

00:29:10 ◼   ► [ Silence ]