Under the Radar

00:00:00 ◼   ► Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent

00:00:02 ◼   ► iOS app development.

00:00:04 ◼   ► I'm Mark O'Arment.

00:00:05 ◼   ► - And I'm David Smith.

00:00:06 ◼   ► Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes,

00:00:08 ◼   ► so let's get started.

00:00:09 ◼   ► - Did you think about that for a second there?

00:00:10 ◼   ► - I did.

00:00:11 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:00:12 ◼   ► That's the reason I was gonna say 15 minutes,

00:00:13 ◼   ► which it is not, it is 30 minutes.

00:00:15 ◼   ► - That was a long established habit though, let's be honest.

00:00:18 ◼   ► - It was, yeah, since for some reason, apparently,

00:00:20 ◼   ► I'm going back in time.

00:00:21 ◼   ► Maybe I'm just thinking about our past.

00:00:22 ◼   ► Maybe I'm thinking about things in the past

00:00:24 ◼   ► and looking forward to our future.

00:00:26 ◼   ► - Well, there was something in the past

00:00:27 ◼   ► that was really nice.

00:00:28 ◼   ► It was a keyboard for laptops that was really reliable,

00:00:31 ◼   ► that everyone pretty much liked,

00:00:33 ◼   ► that had an inverted T set of arrow keys and an escape key.

00:00:36 ◼   ► - I remember those, those were great.

00:00:37 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:00:38 ◼   ► - I don't wanna feel like an old man though

00:00:39 ◼   ► and talk about the good old days

00:00:41 ◼   ► when that's not what we have now.

00:00:42 ◼   ► - The good thing is we can relive our youth

00:00:45 ◼   ► because now there's a 16 inch MacBook Pro

00:00:47 ◼   ► and it has a new keyboard and it's a new keyboard

00:00:51 ◼   ► that's a lot like the old keyboards.

00:00:52 ◼   ► It's good, but it's even better.

00:00:54 ◼   ► Oh, I'm so happy.

00:00:55 ◼   ► - It is eerily like the old one.

00:00:57 ◼   ► When I first saw pictures of the 16 inch MacBook Pro,

00:01:00 ◼   ► I had this moment of like, I thought they were a comparison

00:01:03 ◼   ► like between the old 2015 MacBook Pros

00:01:08 ◼   ► and the current ones 'cause I had this moment of like,

00:01:10 ◼   ► wait, no, that, wait, no, the font's not right.

00:01:13 ◼   ► No, there's a touch bar.

00:01:14 ◼   ► Wait, what's going on?

00:01:16 ◼   ► Like it was eerily similar in a really good way.

00:01:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, I feel a lot like when they introduced

00:01:23 ◼   ► the new Mac Pro that's actually not quite out yet

00:01:26 ◼   ► but it's about to be out, the new Mac Pro

00:01:29 ◼   ► looks a lot more like the older Mac Pro

00:01:32 ◼   ► than the one that it replaces.

00:01:34 ◼   ► And I think like in this, for the new MacBook Pro,

00:01:37 ◼   ► the keyboard here is a very similar story.

00:01:39 ◼   ► Like the keyboard is a lot more like

00:01:41 ◼   ► the one two generations ago than the one

00:01:44 ◼   ► that it's replacing in this past generation.

00:01:46 ◼   ► And that's mostly for similar reasons as the Mac Pro

00:01:49 ◼   ► which is, yeah, it turns out the one

00:01:52 ◼   ► that was last generation was a bold new direction

00:01:55 ◼   ► that made a lot of compromises that a lot of people

00:01:57 ◼   ► didn't like or didn't work very well.

00:01:59 ◼   ► And they're doing the exact same thing now with the laptop.

00:02:01 ◼   ► They're going back to something that is, you know,

00:02:04 ◼   ► much closer in style or in form to the previous one

00:02:09 ◼   ► but a modern reimagining of it still.

00:02:12 ◼   ► So you're still moving forward.

00:02:14 ◼   ► It doesn't feel like you're just reverting back to the past.

00:02:15 ◼   ► It doesn't feel old.

00:02:17 ◼   ► It just feels nice again.

00:02:19 ◼   ► That is what we've, oh, I've been wanting this for years.

00:02:22 ◼   ► I'm so happy.

00:02:23 ◼   ► It's finally just, the keyboard is just right again.

00:02:26 ◼   ► And now we can go back to not thinking about it anymore.

00:02:30 ◼   ► - And I feel like, I mean, and bringing this back

00:02:32 ◼   ► even more to development, it's like it means that your,

00:02:34 ◼   ► I think finally your development setup away from your home

00:02:38 ◼   ► is so much more simplified in a direct way now

00:02:42 ◼   ► than it was previously where you've gone through

00:02:44 ◼   ► all manner of just kind of absurd, I don't even,

00:02:49 ◼   ► I mean, the gymnastics you go through

00:02:52 ◼   ► to do development outside of your home

00:02:54 ◼   ► and not like hate your keyboard

00:02:56 ◼   ► and make it drive you crazy is just absurd.

00:02:58 ◼   ► And I feel like, I suspect, at least for the near term,

00:03:01 ◼   ► like this solves a lot of that for you.

00:03:03 ◼   ► And so now your sort of your scenario is that you can go

00:03:06 ◼   ► and just take this with you and it will work great

00:03:09 ◼   ► and you can use it as a laptop.

00:03:10 ◼   ► You can use, you can hook it up to an external monitor

00:03:12 ◼   ► and keyboard if you need to, like you could have previously

00:03:14 ◼   ► but you have the flexibility between both.

00:03:17 ◼   ► Power wise, it seems good.

00:03:19 ◼   ► Sound wise in terms of not needing to spin up

00:03:21 ◼   ► the speakers or its fans and when it does need its fans,

00:03:24 ◼   ► they're quiet, like all of that stuff seems to be

00:03:26 ◼   ► just like heading in the direction of it's sort of

00:03:29 ◼   ► perfect for you.

00:03:31 ◼   ► - At the end of the day, it is still a laptop

00:03:33 ◼   ► and so it still has, as you mentioned, fans.

00:03:36 ◼   ► Like I've almost never heard the fans on my iMac Pro.

00:03:39 ◼   ► And with a laptop, you do still occasionally hear them.

00:03:42 ◼   ► It depends on what you're doing, of course,

00:03:43 ◼   ► and like certain workloads, you're always gonna hear

00:03:46 ◼   ► the fans but that's just the nature of it.

00:03:48 ◼   ► It does get hot under your hands if you're pushing it hard.

00:03:51 ◼   ► It's still a laptop but before, like for the last few years

00:03:55 ◼   ► since the touch bar generation and these butterfly keyboards,

00:03:58 ◼   ► there's just been this giant elephant in the room like,

00:04:01 ◼   ► okay, yeah they're fast, they have nice screens

00:04:04 ◼   ► and everything but I hate typing on them

00:04:07 ◼   ► and I make a bunch of mistakes.

00:04:09 ◼   ► And that just was a dark cloud over any of my efforts

00:04:14 ◼   ► to try to actually get worked on on these things.

00:04:15 ◼   ► And I did, I would still bring them on trips,

00:04:18 ◼   ► I would still use them, you know,

00:04:19 ◼   ► different rooms of the house sometimes.

00:04:21 ◼   ► Like I would still travel with them and work on them

00:04:23 ◼   ► and I did get work done on them.

00:04:26 ◼   ► I just hated every moment of it

00:04:28 ◼   ► and I made a lot of mistakes.

00:04:29 ◼   ► So to have just the fundamental of that be fixed,

00:04:33 ◼   ► yes it is still a laptop, yes I'm still preferring

00:04:36 ◼   ► a desktop most of the time but now when I go on a trip,

00:04:40 ◼   ► I'm not gonna wanna like wheel my iMac Pro

00:04:44 ◼   ► to a rental house for a weekend just to avoid using

00:04:47 ◼   ► a butterfly keyboard. (laughs)

00:04:51 ◼   ► - That seems like a more sane scenario.

00:04:53 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think so.

00:04:54 ◼   ► - Putting a laptop in a bag and carrying the bag.

00:04:57 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:04:57 ◼   ► - Rather than having a gigantic thing on wheels

00:05:00 ◼   ► that you're wheeling around just for that purpose.

00:05:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, 'cause like because I dislike the keyboard so much,

00:05:07 ◼   ► I really would avoid using my laptop.

00:05:09 ◼   ► Like I would use it only reluctantly

00:05:12 ◼   ► and I would try to minimize the amount of use

00:05:15 ◼   ► that it actually got because I just didn't like it very much

00:05:18 ◼   ► and this changes that.

00:05:20 ◼   ► Like I've already noticed like things that I had been doing

00:05:23 ◼   ► on my iPad before around the house, now I'm doing on this

00:05:28 ◼   ► and it's not gonna replace it completely

00:05:29 ◼   ► but like I used to use my iPad for a lot more portable stuff

00:05:34 ◼   ► or around the house stuff just because I hated

00:05:36 ◼   ► that keyboard so much or I was afraid to like use it

00:05:38 ◼   ► around the kitchen or things like that. (laughs)

00:05:41 ◼   ► - Or the beach.

00:05:42 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:05:43 ◼   ► Or the world where there's anything.

00:05:45 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:05:46 ◼   ► But you know just to have, it feels like a weight

00:05:49 ◼   ► has been lifted off of me.

00:05:50 ◼   ► Like as I use this I'm like oh thank God,

00:05:52 ◼   ► like I can just use it.

00:05:54 ◼   ► I don't have to worry about it.

00:05:56 ◼   ► I'm not fighting it.

00:05:57 ◼   ► It doesn't seem like it's fighting me.

00:05:59 ◼   ► I'm not angry at it.

00:06:01 ◼   ► Like it's just normal again.

00:06:03 ◼   ► It's what all laptops before 2015 used to be.

00:06:08 ◼   ► And you know so again it still has compromises as a laptop

00:06:12 ◼   ► but the basics are now fixed and so I'm able to enjoy it

00:06:17 ◼   ► and use it the way people are supposed to use laptops.

00:06:21 ◼   ► So that makes me very happy and for development work

00:06:25 ◼   ► it's fantastic.

00:06:26 ◼   ► I mean like I did my overcast build test.

00:06:29 ◼   ► This is the review that I got is the eight core i9 models

00:06:32 ◼   ► with like the highest end CPU and it built overcast

00:06:36 ◼   ► in almost exactly the same time as my 10 core iMac Pro.

00:06:41 ◼   ► It's just fantastic.

00:06:42 ◼   ► And these are the same chips like if anybody out there,

00:06:44 ◼   ► if you have, if you got the earlier 2019 revision,

00:06:49 ◼   ► the one that came out around May,

00:06:50 ◼   ► these are the same chips as those.

00:06:52 ◼   ► The same CPU's at least.

00:06:53 ◼   ► GPU is new.

00:06:55 ◼   ► But yeah, otherwise it's just fantastic.

00:06:59 ◼   ► - And I feel like I think for years and years

00:07:02 ◼   ► the 15 inch MacBook Pro was just the like,

00:07:06 ◼   ► that was the default.

00:07:08 ◼   ► And if you were a developer of any sort,

00:07:11 ◼   ► like that is the computer that you got.

00:07:14 ◼   ► It was issued to you by your employer,

00:07:15 ◼   ► you bought it for yourself.

00:07:16 ◼   ► Like that was the default and really the like the nuancing

00:07:20 ◼   ► and the questions that we, you know,

00:07:21 ◼   ► sort of people in like tech news or things,

00:07:23 ◼   ► you go back and forth and I was like,

00:07:24 ◼   ► oh, do you really need the RAM upgrade?

00:07:26 ◼   ► Or do you really need, how big of a hard drive do you need?

00:07:30 ◼   ► Like those are the kinds of questions

00:07:31 ◼   ► that you'd be asking.

00:07:32 ◼   ► And I feel like hopefully we're now back onto the path

00:07:36 ◼   ► where that's the kind of nuance and things

00:07:38 ◼   ► that we can be dealing with rather than this whole

00:07:40 ◼   ► complicated like, oh, do you, I mean,

00:07:42 ◼   ► should you get this generation or this,

00:07:43 ◼   ► like this one they said they slightly fix the membranes

00:07:46 ◼   ► and that's slightly better, but is that gonna work?

00:07:47 ◼   ► Like it's just, in some ways in a good way,

00:07:51 ◼   ► like the best kind of solution to a problem like this

00:07:53 ◼   ► is to me that you just don't think about it anymore.

00:07:55 ◼   ► That it just disappears and becomes not an,

00:07:58 ◼   ► it's just a non-issue and you can just go back to it.

00:08:00 ◼   ► It's just a tool, it just exists, it does its job

00:08:03 ◼   ► and you don't have to think about it.

00:08:05 ◼   ► You don't have to baby it, you can just do it.

00:08:08 ◼   ► And I kind of get the feeling that this would just go back

00:08:09 ◼   ► to that where like this is the default,

00:08:12 ◼   ► like this is the default laptop for most developers.

00:08:15 ◼   ► You get an iMac Pro or an iMac if you are just like,

00:08:18 ◼   ► if you are in one place or have particularly heavy

00:08:22 ◼   ► computational needs, otherwise you get one of these.

00:08:25 ◼   ► Maybe you connect it to an external display,

00:08:26 ◼   ► maybe you don't, that's just kind of, you know,

00:08:28 ◼   ► probably like the main reason to do that

00:08:30 ◼   ► is probably ergonomics and if you do particularly

00:08:33 ◼   ► large spread things, but otherwise like it'll work great.

00:08:37 ◼   ► It's a good computer and hey, it even has an escape key.

00:08:41 ◼   ► So if you're a Vim user, you can, you know,

00:08:44 ◼   ► you can happily hit escape without the,

00:08:47 ◼   ► like hitting escape on a touch bar,

00:08:49 ◼   ► like the previous sort of scenario,

00:08:51 ◼   ► was just the strangest feeling.

00:08:52 ◼   ► It was just punitive.

00:08:54 ◼   ► And I always had to look down, like even if I knew,

00:08:58 ◼   ► like I could do it without hitting it,

00:09:00 ◼   ► but I just didn't trust myself in a weird way.

00:09:01 ◼   ► Like it didn't, there's no satisfaction of just

00:09:04 ◼   ► reaching up and hitting it and knowing you hit it

00:09:06 ◼   ► and anyways, I was delighted to see that

00:09:09 ◼   ► just a real escape key, like and it doesn't,

00:09:11 ◼   ► I think when, I remember when they first came out

00:09:14 ◼   ► with the touch bar, there was this, a bit of a thing about

00:09:16 ◼   ► like oh, would it ruin the aesthetics of the display

00:09:20 ◼   ► to have an, like have it a key next to the touch bar

00:09:23 ◼   ► in that way and it's like, I'm looking at it

00:09:24 ◼   ► and it's like no, it looks great, it looks better.

00:09:26 ◼   ► Like rather than having the low resolution escape key

00:09:29 ◼   ► projected onto a like a display that isn't,

00:09:34 ◼   ► that then means that it's slightly inset

00:09:36 ◼   ► and the sizing is wrong and like all those things,

00:09:38 ◼   ► like the aesthetics of this looks so much better.

00:09:40 ◼   ► It's well aligned with the tilde key,

00:09:41 ◼   ► like it just, it looks great.

00:09:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, and it's just, and I like what you said about

00:09:45 ◼   ► you know, this is like the developer machine

00:09:48 ◼   ► and Apple, like they've trickled out a little bit

00:09:50 ◼   ► of information over the last year or so about pros

00:09:54 ◼   ► and you know, how they cater to pros

00:09:55 ◼   ► and a couple little things that they've said,

00:09:57 ◼   ► one of which they said that developers are their largest

00:10:01 ◼   ► pro market segment and they've said that the 15 inch

00:10:06 ◼   ► MacBook Pro and now the 16 but you know,

00:10:08 ◼   ► before the 15 inch MacBook Pro was their number one

00:10:11 ◼   ► selling pro product.

00:10:12 ◼   ► Combine those two pieces of information,

00:10:15 ◼   ► this really is the developer laptop.

00:10:17 ◼   ► Like if developers are their biggest pro segment

00:10:20 ◼   ► and this is their biggest pro product,

00:10:22 ◼   ► chances are they sell a lot of these to developers

00:10:24 ◼   ► and yeah, anecdotally, you're right,

00:10:26 ◼   ► like you look around like any tech startup,

00:10:28 ◼   ► anywhere that employs software developers,

00:10:30 ◼   ► you're gonna see a lot of 15 inch MacBook Pros

00:10:33 ◼   ► and that's been the case for a decade

00:10:35 ◼   ► and so like it's been there for a long time,

00:10:37 ◼   ► it's very solid, very established and so it's,

00:10:41 ◼   ► it really is like the developer computer

00:10:43 ◼   ► and all the things they showed, yeah,

00:10:46 ◼   ► you know it's also the YouTuber computer and everything,

00:10:48 ◼   ► that's great but for our purposes,

00:10:50 ◼   ► like this is the developer computer

00:10:51 ◼   ► and to make changes that like break some symmetry

00:10:56 ◼   ► and make it slightly bigger and heavier

00:11:00 ◼   ► but that make it extra awesome for developers

00:11:02 ◼   ► and that fix significant problems we have

00:11:04 ◼   ► in the previous one really goes to show that like,

00:11:07 ◼   ► I really do think there was this era of form over function

00:11:12 ◼   ► being out of whack at Apple,

00:11:13 ◼   ► like there really was form over function too much

00:11:15 ◼   ► over the last like five, seven years, whatever

00:11:19 ◼   ► and it really does seem like they have pulled out of that

00:11:23 ◼   ► in a big way and we saw bits and pieces of that,

00:11:26 ◼   ► we saw like the Mac Pro, the iMac Pro,

00:11:30 ◼   ► they updated the Mac Mini last year,

00:11:32 ◼   ► they've been coming out of that form over function slowly

00:11:37 ◼   ► but the laptops were like the huge,

00:11:40 ◼   ► like unsolved area of that and with this,

00:11:44 ◼   ► they start solving it and this isn't on every model,

00:11:46 ◼   ► like you still have the butterfly keyboard

00:11:48 ◼   ► and the smaller models but for the one that they sell

00:11:51 ◼   ► the most of to developers I think

00:11:54 ◼   ► and the one that's most relevant to our audience and to us,

00:11:57 ◼   ► the 15 inch which is now 16, it is finally good,

00:12:01 ◼   ► it is finally fixed and we can finally get rid

00:12:03 ◼   ► of all that drama of like,

00:12:05 ◼   ► as you say, just going back to not having to think about it,

00:12:08 ◼   ► it's a tool, we can use it to get our work done

00:12:11 ◼   ► and we don't have to think about like,

00:12:13 ◼   ► is my keyboard gonna break 'cause I had a cookie over it.

00:12:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, do you think this and this in combination

00:12:19 ◼   ► with the new Mac Pro makes the iMac Pro feel

00:12:22 ◼   ► in a bit of a weird place?

00:12:24 ◼   ► Like, 'cause I was thinking about it when I was,

00:12:26 ◼   ► I mean I'm happy with my current setup

00:12:27 ◼   ► but I could see it kind of when I try and project forward

00:12:29 ◼   ► into a year or two, like it becomes,

00:12:32 ◼   ► like you were saying, this,

00:12:34 ◼   ► in the current incarnation CPU wise,

00:12:37 ◼   ► performance wise it is in the same class anyway

00:12:40 ◼   ► as an iMac Pro for like developer tasks

00:12:44 ◼   ► and obviously the extremes on both ends

00:12:46 ◼   ► are always gonna be weird.

00:12:47 ◼   ► If you're doing some kind of crazy multi-core situation

00:12:51 ◼   ► or you're doing video editing or things

00:12:54 ◼   ► that aren't developer common tasks,

00:12:57 ◼   ► like I'm starting to wonder, like does this develop,

00:12:59 ◼   ► does this in some ways replace the iMac Pro

00:13:01 ◼   ► for a lot of people or replace that sort of that desire?

00:13:05 ◼   ► 'Cause in many ways when I got the iMac Pro,

00:13:07 ◼   ► a big part of it in addition to the,

00:13:09 ◼   ► like I just like having a big screen

00:13:10 ◼   ► which of course now Apple sells a big screen,

00:13:12 ◼   ► even bigger in fact.

00:13:14 ◼   ► - Well, it's quite a bit more money.

00:13:16 ◼   ► - It's a lot more money.

00:13:17 ◼   ► I'm still in the camp that I hope and expect

00:13:20 ◼   ► that at some point there will be

00:13:22 ◼   ► a non-Pro Apple display again.

00:13:26 ◼   ► And I don't know, like I'm a patient person

00:13:28 ◼   ► if that's not this fall, if that's next year or something,

00:13:31 ◼   ► that's fine, but like going to a world where,

00:13:34 ◼   ► for years and years I had a MacBook Pro

00:13:40 ◼   ► and I had an external display.

00:13:42 ◼   ► Like the very classic setup, I mean even back

00:13:44 ◼   ► in the old days where I used to have the three cord

00:13:48 ◼   ► that would come out of the Apple display that had--

00:13:50 ◼   ► - The power, the display, and the USB, right?

00:13:52 ◼   ► - And the USB, yep.

00:13:54 ◼   ► You would plug those three things in.

00:13:56 ◼   ► That was, like my desk was the desk on the Apple website

00:14:00 ◼   ► where they have that as the picture,

00:14:03 ◼   ► though except of course I have a Microsoft keyboard,

00:14:04 ◼   ► but you know, shh, don't tell anyone about that part.

00:14:07 ◼   ► But that was me, I think that setup is so,

00:14:10 ◼   ► like the fundamentals of that setup are so nice

00:14:12 ◼   ► because there's no file syncing,

00:14:14 ◼   ► there's no dealing with like moving around.

00:14:18 ◼   ► It's this very seamless experience.

00:14:19 ◼   ► If you wanna get up and move somewhere,

00:14:21 ◼   ► you wanna go for a day, for an hour,

00:14:23 ◼   ► for a, you know, you just, you wanna take,

00:14:25 ◼   ► you're traveling away from your computer,

00:14:27 ◼   ► like you never feel like, oh no, where's that file?

00:14:29 ◼   ► You just have one computer, that's really nice.

00:14:31 ◼   ► One computer to back up, one computer to manage.

00:14:34 ◼   ► Like that setup is really good.

00:14:36 ◼   ► And I think like the next time I upgrade,

00:14:40 ◼   ► I could see this being that much more compelling

00:14:43 ◼   ► than an iMac Pro because I think the use cases

00:14:45 ◼   ► where an iMac Pro made sense become much more like

00:14:49 ◼   ► maybe you should get it a Mac Pro,

00:14:50 ◼   ► where like if you really need power,

00:14:51 ◼   ► like get some power, man, like go crazy.

00:14:54 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:14:55 ◼   ► If you need just the normal setup where,

00:14:57 ◼   ► you know, I think you were saying,

00:14:58 ◼   ► like Overcast, I think you said it was compiled in,

00:15:00 ◼   ► it's like a minute-ish or something?

00:15:02 ◼   ► - Yeah, from a clean install,

00:15:03 ◼   ► an Xcode build on the command line takes about 40 seconds.

00:15:06 ◼   ► - Yeah, and so like, you don't need it to be much faster.

00:15:10 ◼   ► And I mean, obviously you're doing like Objective-C,

00:15:13 ◼   ► which I think it's compilation and setup

00:15:15 ◼   ► is a bit more constrained, I would say,

00:15:19 ◼   ► than Swift is and SwiftUI, those kinds of syn,

00:15:21 ◼   ► like there's some situations where compilation speed

00:15:23 ◼   ► is still a thing, but honestly in those situations,

00:15:26 ◼   ► in my experience, like it only sort of matters

00:15:28 ◼   ► what computer you're on because the issues are like

00:15:31 ◼   ► every now and then the type checking in Swift will go like,

00:15:35 ◼   ► it'll just like go exponential

00:15:36 ◼   ► and it doesn't matter what computer you have.

00:15:38 ◼   ► It's just like all of a sudden it's just like,

00:15:39 ◼   ► it's just broken and you need to change your code

00:15:41 ◼   ► and like you can't fix that, but I don't know.

00:15:45 ◼   ► I am intrigued by that as a possibility

00:15:47 ◼   ► that the MacBook Pro goes back to being like,

00:15:49 ◼   ► yep, no, there's no complaints about it, it works great.

00:15:51 ◼   ► Get this, get an external display of some kind

00:15:55 ◼   ► and like you're back in business

00:15:57 ◼   ► and it's that nice, simple, straightforward

00:16:00 ◼   ► like world in which I think, I mean,

00:16:01 ◼   ► I lived in that world for like eight years, nine years

00:16:05 ◼   ► and it was great.

00:16:06 ◼   ► - Yeah, I was there too for a while.

00:16:08 ◼   ► For my entire first job and for about half a Tumblr,

00:16:11 ◼   ► I rocked that setup of 15 inch laptop plugged

00:16:14 ◼   ► into an external monitor and external keyboard and mouse

00:16:17 ◼   ► like stuff up on a stand.

00:16:19 ◼   ► It's a great setup for all the reasons you mentioned

00:16:21 ◼   ► and I think it's still very popular today.

00:16:23 ◼   ► I think a lot of developers do that

00:16:25 ◼   ► because especially if you work for a big company,

00:16:27 ◼   ► they mostly don't want to buy you two computers.

00:16:29 ◼   ► Like most of the time, they'll buy you a laptop

00:16:31 ◼   ► and you can use it on your desk or you can have it,

00:16:34 ◼   ► maybe you can get them to get you a monitor

00:16:36 ◼   ► and a keyboard and a mouse, but like,

00:16:38 ◼   ► they mostly just buy their employees laptops period

00:16:40 ◼   ► and that's it.

00:16:41 ◼   ► So that's one of the many reasons why these are so popular

00:16:43 ◼   ► among developers is that a lot of times their workplaces

00:16:46 ◼   ► just get them for them and that's it.

00:16:48 ◼   ► But yeah, it is.

00:16:49 ◼   ► Like all the things you mentioned about just having

00:16:51 ◼   ► one computer to keep things on to, like,

00:16:54 ◼   ► I can't tell you how much time I've wasted doing things

00:16:57 ◼   ► like making sure my signing certificates

00:17:00 ◼   ► and provisioning profiles matched up

00:17:02 ◼   ► between my two computers or,

00:17:04 ◼   ► and yes I know about the export developer identity thing,

00:17:06 ◼   ► yeah, guess what, it doesn't always work.

00:17:08 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:17:09 ◼   ► - I either, one of my apps I still can only build

00:17:12 ◼   ► on one of my computers.

00:17:13 ◼   ► - Right, like there's something in Keychain

00:17:15 ◼   ► that's weird or something, like there's always,

00:17:17 ◼   ► there's so much stuff like that, right?

00:17:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I just hope that computer doesn't die

00:17:20 ◼   ► because right now that's the only way I can build it.

00:17:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, like so many times I've had to like,

00:17:25 ◼   ► go out, delete all my certificates out of Keychain,

00:17:26 ◼   ► start over, like import stuff, like it's been,

00:17:29 ◼   ► you know, so much hassle of getting things back and forth,

00:17:31 ◼   ► getting Git repos to both be in the same state

00:17:34 ◼   ► so I can continue work on one or the other

00:17:36 ◼   ► or having, oh I gotta update Xcode during beta season

00:17:40 ◼   ► on two computers, like there is a lot of benefit

00:17:45 ◼   ► to only having one computer as your main one.

00:17:47 ◼   ► I personally love desktop so much

00:17:50 ◼   ► that I don't think I'm gonna go back to that

00:17:52 ◼   ► for the foreseeable future

00:17:53 ◼   ► and desktop still have a lot of advantages.

00:17:56 ◼   ► Like again, I mentioned the silence,

00:17:57 ◼   ► like I, no matter what I do to my iMac Pro,

00:18:00 ◼   ► I have not heard the fans and that's wonderful

00:18:03 ◼   ► because I hate fan noise and so like,

00:18:05 ◼   ► and to have something that's like permanently set up

00:18:07 ◼   ► as a permanent appliance, it's always running,

00:18:08 ◼   ► it's always on, it's always awake,

00:18:10 ◼   ► like it can run network services from my home

00:18:12 ◼   ► and everything, like that's fantastic

00:18:14 ◼   ► and so I don't think I'm ever gonna get rid of that

00:18:16 ◼   ► but now the advantages of a desktop

00:18:21 ◼   ► have just gotten slimmer over time.

00:18:22 ◼   ► Like it used to be that you needed a desktop

00:18:24 ◼   ► to get any kind of reasonable performance for high-end use

00:18:27 ◼   ► and that hasn't been the case for a long time

00:18:29 ◼   ► and the gap, the performance gap

00:18:33 ◼   ► has narrowed significantly over time,

00:18:35 ◼   ► especially in the last few years

00:18:36 ◼   ► as laptop core counts have gone up.

00:18:38 ◼   ► Like now you can get an eight core laptop

00:18:42 ◼   ► or even in the 13 inch class,

00:18:44 ◼   ► you can get a four core.

00:18:45 ◼   ► That was unheard of three years ago

00:18:47 ◼   ► and now we have all this and desktops are still faster.

00:18:51 ◼   ► Like if I, and you know, in all fairness,

00:18:54 ◼   ► I'm comparing a top spec CPU brand new laptop

00:18:58 ◼   ► to a mid spec CPU two year old iMac Pro.

00:19:01 ◼   ► So this is not like apples to apples comparison here.

00:19:04 ◼   ► Well, okay, sorry for the pun but (laughs)

00:19:08 ◼   ► I'm sure I'm not the first one to ever say that

00:19:09 ◼   ► but it's, the gap is so small now

00:19:14 ◼   ► for a lot of people's tasks that it's effectively the same.

00:19:18 ◼   ► Like if I run Geekbench on these computers,

00:19:21 ◼   ► the iMac Pro is gonna show a huge gain in multi-core,

00:19:24 ◼   ► actually probably not that huge anymore,

00:19:25 ◼   ► eight core versus 10 core,

00:19:26 ◼   ► it's not gonna be that huge anymore.

00:19:27 ◼   ► But the iMac Pro's-- - It's gonna be better.

00:19:29 ◼   ► - Yeah, the iMac Pro's gonna be better

00:19:30 ◼   ► but in real world building and stuff,

00:19:32 ◼   ► you're hitting the SSD a lot,

00:19:34 ◼   ► you're hitting the memory buses and everything.

00:19:36 ◼   ► Like it's more complex than just number of CPU cores

00:19:39 ◼   ► and clock speed.

00:19:40 ◼   ► You have thermal difference between the two

00:19:42 ◼   ► and so there are, depending on what you're doing,

00:19:46 ◼   ► like if you're building Photoshop from scratch,

00:19:49 ◼   ► you know what, yeah, get the Mac Pro

00:19:51 ◼   ► and get the most cores you can throw in there

00:19:53 ◼   ► 'cause you're gonna be doing like a,

00:19:54 ◼   ► what, a half hour long build from a clean maybe?

00:19:57 ◼   ► Like it's gonna be a long build, right?

00:19:59 ◼   ► But when I'm building my project in 40 seconds from clean

00:20:02 ◼   ► and in much less than that when it's not a clean,

00:20:04 ◼   ► that's, at that point, like I can fit in a laptop.

00:20:07 ◼   ► So it's like if you are building something more complex

00:20:10 ◼   ► than Overcast, then by all means,

00:20:12 ◼   ► you might need more than this.

00:20:13 ◼   ► But I've reached the point in performance now

00:20:17 ◼   ► that even on these modern laptops,

00:20:19 ◼   ► it builds my project quickly enough

00:20:21 ◼   ► most of the time for what I need.

00:20:23 ◼   ► So I can do quite a lot of work on a laptop

00:20:25 ◼   ► and be totally fine.

00:20:27 ◼   ► - Yeah, and 'cause I think the reality is

00:20:28 ◼   ► with performance and with development is

00:20:31 ◼   ► it just needs to be fast enough

00:20:32 ◼   ► that it gets out of my way

00:20:35 ◼   ► 'cause usually me thinking is the problem and the slow part.

00:20:38 ◼   ► Like I'm the squishy organic bit in the middle

00:20:41 ◼   ► that's me is the issue.

00:20:42 ◼   ► It's not like the ability of the compiler

00:20:45 ◼   ► to keep up with me changing a file

00:20:46 ◼   ► because if it's doing incremental compilation,

00:20:48 ◼   ► like compiling one file in this big project

00:20:52 ◼   ► is essentially instantaneous from my perspective.

00:20:54 ◼   ► So it's like it just needs to get out of my way in that way.

00:20:58 ◼   ► And I think most computers,

00:21:00 ◼   ► sort of if you get a medium to high spec,

00:21:03 ◼   ► MacBook Pro, iMac Pro, you probably even a 5K iMac,

00:21:06 ◼   ► like it's there.

00:21:08 ◼   ► And it's unlikely that unless you're doing something

00:21:10 ◼   ► really specific, in which case you know,

00:21:13 ◼   ► and that's like you can't give general advice

00:21:15 ◼   ► to specific people because they're having

00:21:17 ◼   ► specific situations, but like for most people,

00:21:19 ◼   ► it's fine and you'll be great.

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00:22:51 ◼   ► - So I think to wrap up this,

00:22:53 ◼   ► something that I kind of slightly more met a topic,

00:22:54 ◼   ► not specifically about this great new machine

00:22:57 ◼   ► that Apple released today, is I wanted to talk a little bit

00:23:00 ◼   ► about your experience in the last, I guess, like 24 hours,

00:23:04 ◼   ► where it's like, we don't want to go into all the details,

00:23:08 ◼   ► but essentially you went to a press briefing,

00:23:10 ◼   ► you have a pre-release version of this,

00:23:12 ◼   ► and I think that A is just super cool.

00:23:16 ◼   ► I think it's A, and it's a wonderful recognition

00:23:18 ◼   ► of sort of the work and effort and consistency

00:23:20 ◼   ► that you've had in covering Apple and talking about Apple

00:23:24 ◼   ► and doing podcasting and blogging.

00:23:26 ◼   ► And I think it's lovely to see Apple recognize that

00:23:29 ◼   ► and to, it's like reward is the wrong word

00:23:31 ◼   ► because it's like, you're dealing with the press,

00:23:33 ◼   ► but it's like, I think maybe recognition is the right word.

00:23:35 ◼   ► That it's like they're recognizing that

00:23:37 ◼   ► you have consistently been a critic of this.

00:23:39 ◼   ► I think they're honestly probably interested

00:23:41 ◼   ► in getting your feedback and talking about it,

00:23:43 ◼   ► but I think A is just really, A is just super cool.

00:23:45 ◼   ► And A, I'm super thrilled for you that that's where you are,

00:23:49 ◼   ► and it's very cool that they brought you down there.

00:23:51 ◼   ► And I think-- - Thank you.

00:23:52 ◼   ► It's a huge honor.

00:23:53 ◼   ► - And it's just great.

00:23:55 ◼   ► Like, I love seeing, I think there's an element

00:23:59 ◼   ► that I always love with Apple where it's like,

00:24:00 ◼   ► there's an element that the smaller,

00:24:03 ◼   ► more independent voices are very often well-regarded

00:24:08 ◼   ► both in the community and within Apple.

00:24:11 ◼   ► And I think that is something that whenever I see

00:24:13 ◼   ► that sort of that characteristic and that character at Apple,

00:24:16 ◼   ► it just makes me feel good,

00:24:17 ◼   ► obviously because I am a small independent voice.

00:24:20 ◼   ► But I think more generally it speaks to,

00:24:22 ◼   ► it's like encouraging the long tail

00:24:24 ◼   ► and encouraging the variety and the diversity

00:24:29 ◼   ► in their community that, in general with most things,

00:24:32 ◼   ► like diversity breeds innovation,

00:24:34 ◼   ► breeds a more complete and thorough ecosystem,

00:24:37 ◼   ► and finds new opportunities and finds growth.

00:24:40 ◼   ► And so I'm delighted to see that.

00:24:42 ◼   ► And also, it was something that I think about

00:24:44 ◼   ► where as far as I could tell,

00:24:46 ◼   ► this morning at 8.30 a.m.,

00:24:49 ◼   ► the world was bombarded by reviews and podcasts

00:24:52 ◼   ► and videos and all these kinds of things

00:24:54 ◼   ► about this new 16-inch MacBook Pro.

00:24:57 ◼   ► And it's kind of cool that,

00:25:00 ◼   ► the first thing that I,

00:25:04 ◼   ► the first media that I consumed to get to familiarize myself

00:25:08 ◼   ► with the 16-inch MacBook Pro was this morning's ADB.

00:25:10 ◼   ► - Thank you.

00:25:11 ◼   ► - And I was very excited to see that,

00:25:14 ◼   ► and I think that's where I wanted to go.

00:25:15 ◼   ► And I think what's fascinating too is

00:25:17 ◼   ► you were able to turn that around,

00:25:19 ◼   ► a non-insubstantial length podcast

00:25:22 ◼   ► with high production quality and consistent experience

00:25:26 ◼   ► with if you've been an ATP listener.

00:25:28 ◼   ► And I think in many ways,

00:25:29 ◼   ► that is because you have the repetition,

00:25:33 ◼   ► the experience, and the confidence

00:25:36 ◼   ► to be able to take that on.

00:25:37 ◼   ► As you recorded that episode,

00:25:39 ◼   ► you had a very brief window

00:25:41 ◼   ► from when your briefings ended yesterday,

00:25:43 ◼   ► wow, yesterday.

00:25:44 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:25:45 ◼   ► - Till 8.30 a.m. this morning

00:25:47 ◼   ► to get an episode recorded,

00:25:49 ◼   ► to get it edited, to get it put together,

00:25:50 ◼   ► to have all the hosting and the infrastructure.

00:25:53 ◼   ► Like you had done the reps to make that happen

00:25:55 ◼   ► so that you could have the confidence to do that.

00:25:57 ◼   ► And I think that is just something

00:25:58 ◼   ► that I wanted to point out

00:25:59 ◼   ► that I think very often in general,

00:26:02 ◼   ► especially as an independent developer,

00:26:03 ◼   ► or when you're on your own to do things more,

00:26:07 ◼   ► you have to take on more yourself.

00:26:09 ◼   ► Embracing the sense of repetition

00:26:13 ◼   ► and experience with a variety of tools is a useful thing

00:26:17 ◼   ► because you never know when you're gonna kind of

00:26:19 ◼   ► find yourself in a situation where,

00:26:21 ◼   ► like in this case, Apple reaches out to you and says,

00:26:23 ◼   ► hey, we'd like to have you come to this thing.

00:26:25 ◼   ► And the embargo drops less than 24 hours from now.

00:26:29 ◼   ► If you hadn't had done hundreds of episodes

00:26:32 ◼   ► of podcasts in the past,

00:26:33 ◼   ► like being able to turn around a well-edited podcast

00:26:35 ◼   ► that is worthy of that experience,

00:26:38 ◼   ► would have likely been intimidating if not impossible.

00:26:40 ◼   ► And I feel like that same thing happens in development

00:26:43 ◼   ► where a lot of times I am thankful

00:26:46 ◼   ► that I've shipped so many apps

00:26:48 ◼   ► and I've done so much speculative,

00:26:51 ◼   ► prototype-y kind of like throwaway work over the years

00:26:55 ◼   ► so that every now and then, an opportunity will arrive,

00:26:58 ◼   ► a new API, a new device, something will come along,

00:27:01 ◼   ► and I'm able to jump on it right away and work on it.

00:27:04 ◼   ► And that experience is what allows you

00:27:07 ◼   ► to have the confidence to do that.

00:27:08 ◼   ► And I think it's just something I wanna mention

00:27:10 ◼   ► that it is useful and it is a worthwhile thing to seek out,

00:27:15 ◼   ► to try new things, to have experience on a variety of things,

00:27:19 ◼   ► and to have experience and repetition there

00:27:21 ◼   ► so that you can take advantage of these opportunities.

00:27:23 ◼   ► Because it would have been kind of sad and lame

00:27:26 ◼   ► if Apple had said, "Hey, we'd love to have you come out

00:27:27 ◼   ► "to a briefing, we'd like to do this thing,"

00:27:29 ◼   ► and the episode of ATP drops on Friday.

00:27:32 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:27:34 ◼   ► That wouldn't have been cool,

00:27:35 ◼   ► but you were able to do it and turn it around,

00:27:37 ◼   ► and do it, and it wasn't like you cut corners

00:27:38 ◼   ► to make that happen because of the experience.

00:27:40 ◼   ► And I think, A, that's really cool

00:27:41 ◼   ► and speaks to your skill and experience with that,

00:27:44 ◼   ► and I think it recognizes that that's an important thing

00:27:47 ◼   ► for developers and for people,

00:27:49 ◼   ► just professionals more generally,

00:27:51 ◼   ► to have those kind of skills honed in

00:27:53 ◼   ► to be able to take advantage of opportunities

00:27:54 ◼   ► when they come up.

00:27:56 ◼   ► - Thank you, thank you very much.

00:27:58 ◼   ► It's very much like a production flow mindset.

00:28:01 ◼   ► Like if you see any kind of group of people

00:28:04 ◼   ► who produces the same kind of thing over and over again,

00:28:07 ◼   ► whether it's people who work in a theater,

00:28:09 ◼   ► or even people who work in a restaurant,

00:28:11 ◼   ► where you're putting on events

00:28:13 ◼   ► or creating some kind of output

00:28:16 ◼   ► that you're just doing the same thing over and over again,

00:28:18 ◼   ► you need to really hone that skill,

00:28:20 ◼   ► and over time you just get really good

00:28:22 ◼   ► at cranking it out,

00:28:23 ◼   ► just because you're doing it all the time

00:28:25 ◼   ► and you're working through the process,

00:28:26 ◼   ► you're improving your tools and everything,

00:28:28 ◼   ► and your skills are getting better.

00:28:30 ◼   ► And that's what this is, that's what I do with podcasts.

00:28:34 ◼   ► That's what you do with creating new apps from scratch.

00:28:36 ◼   ► Like you do it so much that you're really good at it.

00:28:38 ◼   ► Like I'm bad at that,

00:28:39 ◼   ► but I'm really good at making podcasts.

00:28:41 ◼   ► I've made about, I don't know, probably six or 700

00:28:44 ◼   ► podcast episodes so far,

00:28:45 ◼   ► and I crank 'em out.

00:28:47 ◼   ► It's a production, it's like a flow of a mindset.

00:28:51 ◼   ► And yeah, it's one of those things

00:28:52 ◼   ► like you just get better with practice.

00:28:55 ◼   ► - Yeah, and it is wonderful that that practice

00:29:00 ◼   ► means that you can now take advantage of that opportunity.

00:29:03 ◼   ► I think that is the,

00:29:04 ◼   ► it's like, what is it, Luck Favors the Well-Prepared?

00:29:08 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:29:08 ◼   ► - Like, it's that kind of a thing

00:29:10 ◼   ► where it allows you to take advantage of things

00:29:12 ◼   ► when they come up.

00:29:13 ◼   ► And it's really cool that it comes up,

00:29:14 ◼   ► and now you've, like, you were able to be there and do this,

00:29:17 ◼   ► and you know, like, I don't know.

00:29:20 ◼   ► I just think that that is so cool to see,

00:29:22 ◼   ► and that to imagine that you now have a 16-inch MacBook Pro

00:29:25 ◼   ► on your desk that no one else does,

00:29:27 ◼   ► but yours is there and you can use it,

00:29:29 ◼   ► and you can experience it, and you can review it,

00:29:30 ◼   ► and take advantage of it before anyone else as a result,

00:29:34 ◼   ► which is really cool.

00:29:35 ◼   ► - It's so good, you should go get one.

00:29:37 ◼   ► Anyway, thanks for listening, everybody.

00:29:39 ◼   ► Talk to you in a couple of weeks.

00:29:40 ◼   ► Bye.

00:29:40 ◼   ► Bye.

00:29:41 ◼   ► [BLANK_AUDIO]