Under the Radar

00:00:00 ◼   ► Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development.

00:00:04 ◼   ► I'm Marco Arment.

00:00:05 ◼   ► And I'm David Smith.

00:00:06 ◼   ► Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.

00:00:10 ◼   ► Recently, depending on exactly when you're listening to this, the iPad celebrated its

00:00:15 ◼   ► 10-year anniversary from its introduction into the world, which was certainly a little

00:00:21 ◼   ► bit before when it was actually available to us, which is part of the story we'll get

00:00:24 ◼   ► to in a minute.

00:00:25 ◼   ► But it seemed like a good point to kind of look back and talk about our various histories

00:00:32 ◼   ► developing for the iPad.

00:00:34 ◼   ► And it's been quite an up and down journey, at least for myself, from the earliest days

00:00:40 ◼   ► when it was first announced and the general sense of excitement and anticipation for what

00:00:45 ◼   ► this platform might be, especially since it was like, this is Apple's first new platform

00:00:49 ◼   ► after the iPhone, and everyone knows how that turned out, to kind of where it is now, 10

00:00:55 ◼   ► years on.

00:00:56 ◼   ► It feels like in a very different place, both in terms of my interest, the amount of development

00:01:01 ◼   ► that I do for it, the amount that I use it.

00:01:04 ◼   ► And that just seemed like an interesting thing to look back, because I think even beyond

00:01:06 ◼   ► just the interesting topicalness of talking about the iPad, we are constantly in this

00:01:13 ◼   ► funny place of trying to decide where we want to put our efforts and what we want to work

00:01:18 ◼   ► on.

00:01:19 ◼   ► And I think sometimes looking back is helpful to just kind of hopefully learn some lessons

00:01:22 ◼   ► about where we went wrong, where we went right in the case of the iPad and how that might

00:01:27 ◼   ► apply in our futures.

00:01:29 ◼   ► The conditions around when the iPad launched were so unusual.

00:01:33 ◼   ► I mean, as you said, it was the first big platform after the iPhone.

00:01:37 ◼   ► And unlike the iPhone, the iPad had two big things that were different.

00:01:42 ◼   ► Number one, we already knew that the iPhone was a huge hit.

00:01:46 ◼   ► So we had a pretty good idea the iPad was probably going to be a huge hit too.

00:01:50 ◼   ► And number two, the iPad was launching on day one with the App Store.

00:01:54 ◼   ► The iPhone didn't.

00:01:55 ◼   ► The iPhone became a huge hit on its own before anybody could make third party apps.

00:01:59 ◼   ► And then we had the SDK that we could use as the betas on our actual iPhones that we

00:02:04 ◼   ► owned for a while, for a few months, and then we could release these apps to the store.

00:02:08 ◼   ► The iPad app store dynamic was totally different.

00:02:11 ◼   ► The iPad was launching with the App Store on day one.

00:02:14 ◼   ► We did have a beta SDK that we could develop apps with, but we didn't have beta hardware.

00:02:19 ◼   ► So we couldn't test out our apps beforehand.

00:02:21 ◼   ► So we could develop iPad apps, but without ever having used an iPad.

00:02:26 ◼   ► And we could ship them to be in the store on day one.

00:02:29 ◼   ► And we knew from the App Store performance on the iPhone, we knew that we probably should

00:02:34 ◼   ► be there on day one.

00:02:35 ◼   ► It just gets a huge opportunity for tons of sales.

00:02:37 ◼   ► Everyone's going to be buying iPads, and they're going to want to fill them up with

00:02:40 ◼   ► apps as soon as they bring them home.

00:02:43 ◼   ► Or they're going to want iPad versions of their iPhone apps that they've been used

00:02:46 ◼   ► to.

00:02:47 ◼   ► So it was a huge opportunity for developers, but we had no idea how our apps would actually

00:02:52 ◼   ► be on an iPad except what the iOS simulator would show us on our computers.

00:02:57 ◼   ► But that's very different.

00:02:59 ◼   ► And I remember, so this was, I was working at Tumblr at the time, but I was working on

00:03:05 ◼   ► the side on Instapaper.

00:03:08 ◼   ► It was doing well on the phone.

00:03:10 ◼   ► And on the iPad, I knew I had to be there on day one, because I knew this was going

00:03:13 ◼   ► to be pretty good as a reading device, or as a web article reading and browsing device.

00:03:19 ◼   ► I better have Instapaper there on day one.

00:03:22 ◼   ► And the problem was, my first version of it was awful.

00:03:26 ◼   ► Because I didn't even have an iPad to test on, so my first version of Instapaper for

00:03:30 ◼   ► iPad, it was literally just the blown up iPhone app.

00:03:33 ◼   ► Because I didn't really know what else to do.

00:03:35 ◼   ► So it had the same navigation bar on top, giant stretched out toolbar on the bottom

00:03:40 ◼   ► that was super wide.

00:03:42 ◼   ► I didn't use split views, it was just one big screen, one big list.

00:03:47 ◼   ► It was a mess.

00:03:50 ◼   ► But I had no idea.

00:03:53 ◼   ► How is this going to work?

00:03:54 ◼   ► How do you hold this device?

00:03:56 ◼   ► How big do things need to be?

00:03:59 ◼   ► And that was one of the biggest challenges of just figuring out basic ergonomics and

00:04:05 ◼   ► scale.

00:04:06 ◼   ► Because you can kind of make the UI look alright in the simulator and have a good idea of how

00:04:10 ◼   ► it will look, but you don't know is this going to be way too small or way too big?

00:04:15 ◼   ► Are these touch targets going to be too hard to hit or annoying or are you going to have

00:04:18 ◼   ► to move your hand halfway across the screen every time you do this?

00:04:20 ◼   ► Is that going to be annoying?

00:04:22 ◼   ► It was such a weird thing.

00:04:24 ◼   ► And the responsible thing to do probably would have been to, from an app design and quality

00:04:30 ◼   ► perspective, to just wait until it came out and start UI development then when you could

00:04:34 ◼   ► get your hands on one and actually do it on the device.

00:04:38 ◼   ► But that was too much of a miss for this opportunity of being there on day one that I know very

00:04:45 ◼   ► few people who took that route and didn't regret it later.

00:04:48 ◼   ► Almost everyone I know who succeeded with software at the time was there on day one

00:04:53 ◼   ► with something.

00:04:54 ◼   ► And they just figured it out as they went afterwards.

00:04:56 ◼   ► Yeah, I think it was just raw excitement, I think it's the best description for what

00:05:04 ◼   ► I felt at that time.

00:05:05 ◼   ► And if I remember right, in one of the original introductions, I have this strong feeling

00:05:10 ◼   ► that there was a video that involved Scott Forstall saying, "We expect it's going

00:05:14 ◼   ► to be a whole new gold rush."

00:05:16 ◼   ► It is just one of those, that was the feeling that I think everyone had.

00:05:22 ◼   ► Everyone knows the story of the Trism guy on day one of the iPhone and how he made hundreds

00:05:30 ◼   ► of thousands of dollars in one day and it was great.

00:05:33 ◼   ► And everyone kind of expected that with the iPad.

00:05:35 ◼   ► And so no one wanted to wait it out like you were saying.

00:05:38 ◼   ► We just did all the absurd things we could think of.

00:05:41 ◼   ► I remember I went to my kids' bookshelf and I took off books and weighed them on a

00:05:47 ◼   ► kitchen scale until I found one that weighed about the same as an iPad and was physically

00:05:52 ◼   ► about the same size as an iPad.

00:05:55 ◼   ► And then I cut out a paper template of an iPad screen and stuck it on this book and

00:06:01 ◼   ► would draw mock-ups on this and hold it in my hand so I had a feeling of like, "Huh,

00:06:05 ◼   ► is this you?

00:06:06 ◼   ► How big is this?

00:06:07 ◼   ► Where would my thumb be?"

00:06:08 ◼   ► Etc.

00:06:09 ◼   ► And that was the best we could do.

00:06:10 ◼   ► And in some ways, I don't think it actually ended up working out that poorly.

00:06:16 ◼   ► I think most of the apps that—we missed a lot of things on day one in terms of the

00:06:22 ◼   ► best iPad apps possible and that subsequently have come out—did not launch on day one.

00:06:27 ◼   ► But I think the impression—most people's approach was just to have a blown-up iPhone

00:06:33 ◼   ► app, which in many cases works fine and was better than the little iPhone simulator-sized

00:06:42 ◼   ► thing that the iPad would do otherwise for your application.

00:06:45 ◼   ► You'd hit the 2x button in the corner and grow it to be sort of like a blown-up iPhone

00:06:50 ◼   ► app but not nearly as good as if you just blew up your iPhone app into an iPad and that

00:06:55 ◼   ► worked.

00:06:56 ◼   ► And in general, I think—and I don't regret trying to be there on day one.

00:07:01 ◼   ► And I mean, I went down the crazy route at this point.

00:07:03 ◼   ► I think I launched on day one something like seven iPad apps.

00:07:07 ◼   ► You?

00:07:08 ◼   ► You know?

00:07:09 ◼   ► And I just went down this road of like, "I'm just going to come up with everything I could

00:07:13 ◼   ► possibly think of that someone might like on an iPad."

00:07:18 ◼   ► And none of those apps really went anywhere or made a lot of money, but I was there on

00:07:23 ◼   ► day one and I was like putting myself in a position to—if something had caught on or

00:07:29 ◼   ► had something had been successful, I was in the running even though I didn't quite win

00:07:35 ◼   ► out in that particular case.

00:07:36 ◼   ► Yeah, I also was like making paper models.

00:07:40 ◼   ► And so I remember like I would print out screenshots from the simulator trying to match their size

00:07:46 ◼   ► on paper to what the actual screen would be so I could at least have some idea of like,

00:07:51 ◼   ► "Is my interface appropriately sized?"

00:07:53 ◼   ► Or like, "What should the default text size be in my article view for Instapaper?"

00:07:58 ◼   ► It was such a thing.

00:08:00 ◼   ► And people were making wood mockups with like the laser cutting wood factories and stuff.

00:08:06 ◼   ► It was a crazy time.

00:08:07 ◼   ► But it was great.

00:08:09 ◼   ► And being there on day one, it really was a gold rush.

00:08:13 ◼   ► And unfortunately, I think since then, the gold rush aspect of the iPad dropped off pretty

00:08:20 ◼   ► quickly.

00:08:21 ◼   ► It was healthy for a while as a casual gaming device.

00:08:25 ◼   ► That I think was one of its very most successful uses for that first couple of years.

00:08:31 ◼   ► But ultimately, I think the iPad became a more complicated selling proposition for lots

00:08:36 ◼   ► of reasons.

00:08:37 ◼   ► I mean, first of all, back then, in-app purchase was in its early days.

00:08:40 ◼   ► There was no subscription billing.

00:08:42 ◼   ► And so paid applications mostly made money by paid upfront purchases.

00:08:47 ◼   ► And the iPad came out and there was this question of whether you should have a separate version

00:08:52 ◼   ► of your app for the iPad that you charge separately for or whether you should just make it a universal

00:08:57 ◼   ► app which comes with other benefits like in the app store and everything.

00:08:59 ◼   ► And that really threw a wrench on a lot of people's businesses and plans.

00:09:06 ◼   ► And a lot of that has not really quite been resolved even today and probably never will

00:09:11 ◼   ► be.

00:09:12 ◼   ► I think it's interesting to look back on the business side of the iPad because for so many

00:09:17 ◼   ► apps it is either the only platform that they make sense on, like something like a drawing

00:09:22 ◼   ► app or a high-end photo editor app.

00:09:25 ◼   ► Or it's like their primary platform where it mostly makes sense on the iPad but they

00:09:30 ◼   ► happen to also have made an iPhone version.

00:09:32 ◼   ► But the entire time the iPad has been out, even those first couple of years when it was

00:09:36 ◼   ► really booming, there have been way more iPhones than iPads in the user base.

00:09:42 ◼   ► And so the user numbers on the iPhone were always way higher.

00:09:47 ◼   ► And so it would kind of draw your focus financially on that because you'd want to focus on the

00:09:52 ◼   ► thing that was making you more money, getting you the most users, and that was usually the

00:09:55 ◼   ► iPhone.

00:09:56 ◼   ► But then the iPad, you could do really cool things with the iPad's capabilities and the

00:10:01 ◼   ► giant screen and everything.

00:10:02 ◼   ► But it was hard to fund that without a healthier app store economic situation.

00:10:11 ◼   ► And we still face that battle today.

00:10:13 ◼   ► It's actually, I think, possibly even harder today, although subscriptions and free up

00:10:19 ◼   ► front apps being pretty prevalent I think makes it a lot easier.

00:10:22 ◼   ► But still, those early days, I was lucky because the iPad was indeed very successful as a reading

00:10:31 ◼   ► device and I happened to be making an app that enabled you to read.

00:10:36 ◼   ► So it was great for Instapaper.

00:10:39 ◼   ► It's no accident that the iPad came out in early 2010 and I left my full-time job in

00:10:45 ◼   ► late 2010.

00:10:47 ◼   ► Those are connected.

00:10:48 ◼   ► The iPad more than doubled my income when it came out.

00:10:51 ◼   ► - Was Instapaper universal at the start?

00:10:53 ◼   ► - I was just trying to remember that.

00:10:55 ◼   ► I think it always was, but I don't remember for sure.

00:10:58 ◼   ► I'm pretty sure it was.

00:10:59 ◼   ► Sorry if I'm wrong, anybody who is an Instapaper historian.

00:11:02 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:11:03 ◼   ► Anyway, so I made the decision to just make it one app and just make it universal, make

00:11:08 ◼   ► it run on the iPad.

00:11:10 ◼   ► And that, for my business, that definitely worked out.

00:11:13 ◼   ► I mean, 2010 was one of Instapaper's highest grossing years during the time I owned it,

00:11:19 ◼   ► possibly ever.

00:11:21 ◼   ► And I think 2011 was the highest grossing and then it went down as iPad maniacs started

00:11:26 ◼   ► to fade after that.

00:11:27 ◼   ► But it was such a great market for Instapaper, 'cause it was about reading, that I think

00:11:34 ◼   ► my usage stats a few years into the iPad existing were something like it was 50% usage was on

00:11:40 ◼   ► the iPad.

00:11:41 ◼   ► And given the install base difference between iPad and iPhone, that was incredible.

00:11:44 ◼   ► Whereas now on Overcast, which is about listening to audio, which is something that is way more

00:11:49 ◼   ► common to do on a phone than on a tablet, like by a long shot, it's something like 96%

00:11:55 ◼   ► phone, 4% iPad.

00:11:58 ◼   ► It's something along that range of like, now the iPad app is really kind of a side effort.

00:12:04 ◼   ► Although I use it every day, 'cause that's kind of like how I play podcasts in my kitchen

00:12:08 ◼   ► and dining room area, like around the house.

00:12:10 ◼   ► But most people don't use that, so like, now my business choices might be different.

00:12:17 ◼   ► It's not worth investing heavily into the iPad interface now, whereas it was back for

00:12:22 ◼   ► Instapaper.

00:12:23 ◼   ► And I did, I made a whole custom UI eventually, like it was really nice actually, and I think

00:12:27 ◼   ► a lot of that is still there in the current Instapaper app that's out today, that somebody

00:12:31 ◼   ► else manages.

00:12:32 ◼   ► But it was quite a ride for Instapaper, but for a lot of other apps, it wasn't.

00:12:38 ◼   ► It was very lopsided.

00:12:40 ◼   ► Certain apps that made sense were basically, content consumption, content creation, and

00:12:45 ◼   ► games did fantastically.

00:12:47 ◼   ► But a lot of the kind of more general productivity or general utility apps really didn't do

00:12:52 ◼   ► very well there.

00:12:53 ◼   ► What did you find worked on the iPad?

00:12:55 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:12:56 ◼   ► - And I think the big thing that, the biggest thing with the iPad was that it, in many ways,

00:13:01 ◼   ► it reset the sort of rush to the bottom that had been sort of, had lived itself, sort of

00:13:09 ◼   ► had gone full cycle on the iPhone.

00:13:11 ◼   ► That I feel like the, there was a, at that point on the iPhone, we were already in the

00:13:17 ◼   ► world of charging more than 99 cents for an application was a high price, and it was difficult

00:13:23 ◼   ► and was challenging and free was becoming a bit more of a thing.

00:13:28 ◼   ► And that had put a lot of downward pressure on it.

00:13:30 ◼   ► And I feel like there was this very like short period, maybe, I mean, short in the context

00:13:38 ◼   ► of 10 years, but maybe the first year of the iPad, there was, I think this feeling that

00:13:43 ◼   ► it was more like 499, 999 became iPad, like iPad app pricing.

00:13:51 ◼   ► And during that period, it worked, like I had, the most successful iPad app was a recipe

00:13:56 ◼   ► organizer.

00:13:57 ◼   ► And it was a paid upfront and it did very well.

00:14:00 ◼   ► And I think in many ways it was the, it was competing against a lot of free, like the

00:14:06 ◼   ► Epicurious, like the big recipe websites, they had free apps, but there was still an

00:14:10 ◼   ► appetite to pay for apps, I feel like on the iPad.

00:14:12 ◼   ► And it was sort of this, you know, and some of the, you know, there's this just refreshed,

00:14:18 ◼   ► like interest in that from customers that I think eventually just sort of tapered off

00:14:22 ◼   ► and, you know, the prices started to come down and then the economics started to get

00:14:26 ◼   ► more complicated.

00:14:27 ◼   ► And the nature of iPad apps is like doing a really good iPad app is in many ways more

00:14:34 ◼   ► difficult than an iPhone app.

00:14:36 ◼   ► And certainly it is a additional work to beyond the iPhone app and the iPhone app is you became

00:14:41 ◼   ► so essential and so front and center for most of my, the things that I work on at the iPad

00:14:47 ◼   ► became kind of this extra thing.

00:14:49 ◼   ► And then the economics of it started to fall down where rather than being $4.99, $9.99,

00:14:54 ◼   ► you know, it became, you know, the same thing, $1.99, $0.99 or free.

00:14:58 ◼   ► And like the, it didn't have the volume to kind of keep up with the iPhone at that point.

00:15:04 ◼   ► And then it kind of all fell down.

00:15:05 ◼   ► But I mean, it was also kind of a rough thing because I remember right when it was happening,

00:15:09 ◼   ► like there was this question about where pricing on the iPad was going to go because on the

00:15:14 ◼   ► Mac, you know, the pricing is, broadly speaking, much higher that I think like a more common

00:15:21 ◼   ► price for a piece of Mac software kind of in the, you know, indie productivity or similar

00:15:26 ◼   ► kind of world would be like, you know, $19, $29.

00:15:31 ◼   ► Like that's kind of a more like a common price and then things go up and down from there.

00:15:35 ◼   ► But it wouldn't be crazy if you see a Mac app that was $19.

00:15:41 ◼   ► But I feel like the iPad, it sort of right from the start almost in some ways had like

00:15:45 ◼   ► half of its potential taken out because it seemed like $9.99 was the most expensive that

00:15:50 ◼   ► anyone sort of wanted to go.

00:15:53 ◼   ► And I'm not sure if I vaguely remember even too that some of the apps that Apple was promoting

00:15:58 ◼   ► like at their events and things like that was the most expensive app that they were

00:16:02 ◼   ► talking about and that kind of just like set the ceiling that subsequently just kind of

00:16:07 ◼   ► felt like it's like if that's as high as it's going to go and then it just, you know,

00:16:10 ◼   ► over the next year it just kind of fell down from there.

00:16:13 ◼   ► Like it just kind of took the wind out of it pretty quickly on the business side.

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00:17:48 ◼   ► So I'm curious, the iPad, it had this amazing rise and then kind of fall into stagnation

00:17:54 ◼   ► and disappointment after a few years from both customers and developers.

00:17:59 ◼   ► And then it kind of went back up again as the rise of the iPad Pro has happened and

00:18:04 ◼   ► as Apple has gone down market with some of the entry level models.

00:18:07 ◼   ► It seems like the last couple of years I've seen a nice turnaround in sales and usage

00:18:11 ◼   ► of the iPad.

00:18:13 ◼   ► But what do you think, I think let's spend the rest of the episode talking about what

00:18:17 ◼   ► do you think is the future of the iPad and maybe the present situation economically?

00:18:24 ◼   ► There's all sorts of stuff we can talk about with the UI and multitasking and hardware

00:18:27 ◼   ► and everything else, but just the app economics, what do you see today and what do you see

00:18:32 ◼   ► being the near term future?

00:18:36 ◼   ► It doesn't look great.

00:18:37 ◼   ► Or at least it's certainly not for the small indie developer necessarily.

00:18:44 ◼   ► I feel like it's still stuck in this kind of awkward place between, it doesn't have

00:18:52 ◼   ► a large enough user base that is either interested in or expects to spend lots of money to support

00:19:04 ◼   ► their apps.

00:19:05 ◼   ► And so it's a hard platform to be motivated to try to make a run at and to get working

00:19:12 ◼   ► on that.

00:19:14 ◼   ► By and large, the most successful applications right now on iOS are going to be, they're

00:19:19 ◼   ► free up front and then they either charge you a subscription or they show you advertising

00:19:23 ◼   ► or they do both.

00:19:24 ◼   ► That is, I think by far, the most successful business model that we have right now.

00:19:29 ◼   ► And you can sort of make that work potentially on the iPad if you have something that is

00:19:35 ◼   ► very compelling and very professional, like I think of the Pro Creates and Adobe and the

00:19:42 ◼   ► really actual professional tools.

00:19:47 ◼   ► But the awkward thing, and the catch-22 with those is you can make good money if you have

00:19:52 ◼   ► a really sophisticated app, but in order to build a sophisticated app, you need lots of

00:19:56 ◼   ► time and resources that you then are taking a huge risk on then being able to turn around

00:20:01 ◼   ► and support long term.

00:20:03 ◼   ► And that cycle of, you have to build this big, expansive thing before you can garner

00:20:12 ◼   ► that kind of success, but you can't garner that kind of success without spending all

00:20:16 ◼   ► the time.

00:20:17 ◼   ► It makes me feel like the iPad is just kind of in this stuck middle ground, that it's

00:20:24 ◼   ► hard for it to be a focus or to be a platform that makes a lot of sense, except for very

00:20:30 ◼   ► few select things, and that just kind of limits the richness of its ecosystem.

00:20:36 ◼   ► And I think too, while the iPad, the sales and the volume of it is relatively good in

00:20:43 ◼   ► terms of just from a volume perspective, my expectation, and just from anecdotally where

00:20:48 ◼   ► I see iPads in the world, is 60-70% of iPads are used as a tool for watching video.

00:20:59 ◼   ► And probably half or two-thirds of that are like, the iPad being put in front of a child

00:21:07 ◼   ► while they're out with their parents or getting their screen time or whatever.

00:21:14 ◼   ► That has become such a ubiquitous part of culture, but I don't think that particular

00:21:20 ◼   ► market is something where there's a huge economic pull.

00:21:24 ◼   ► That is for the Netflix of the world and the Amazon Prime and there's a few other things

00:21:30 ◼   ► like that that are going to be, who can make use of that.

00:21:33 ◼   ► But it means that of this relatively growing user base potentially, there's just not as

00:21:39 ◼   ► much interest in rich, deep applications.

00:21:43 ◼   ► And there's going to be exceptions, and there's going to be people who are doing tremendously

00:21:46 ◼   ► powerful things, and people are building really clever applications for the iPad.

00:21:52 ◼   ► But it's not mass market, and it's not in some ways nearly as mass market as even the

00:21:58 ◼   ► Mac is.

00:21:59 ◼   ► I think with the Mac, while you can't do real work on the iPad, because you absolutely can,

00:22:06 ◼   ► but I think there's a broader audience of people who are already doing real work on

00:22:16 ◼   ► their Mac than are doing that on the iPad, for example.

00:22:19 ◼   ► And that means that if you wanted to spend three months building a productivity tool,

00:22:26 ◼   ► my suspicion is you might have better luck with it on the Mac than you would on the iPad.

00:22:31 ◼   ► And so that puts it in this really awkward place.

00:22:34 ◼   ► And personally, I haven't developed really for the iPad in probably four or five years

00:22:40 ◼   ► now.

00:22:41 ◼   ► I've done a few bits of compatibility updates for my older apps that I still have there

00:22:46 ◼   ► and things, but I have no idea about how a lot of this stuff works anymore.

00:22:54 ◼   ► I haven't bought iPads for development.

00:22:58 ◼   ► I have one of every iPhone that exists since the iPhone 3GS in my office.

00:23:04 ◼   ► I have an iPad somewhere in the house that is usually used for my kids or I to watch

00:23:11 ◼   ► video on.

00:23:12 ◼   ► It's just fallen out of my life.

00:23:14 ◼   ► And I'm not sure I'm representative of all developers, but for me, that's just where

00:23:18 ◼   ► it went.

00:23:19 ◼   ► It didn't become a part of my own life, and then the economics weren't there to sustain

00:23:23 ◼   ► itself as part of my developer life.

00:23:26 ◼   ► Yeah, I think in a lot of ways, it's almost like on a continuum where you have general

00:23:32 ◼   ► purpose software and market on one end, and that's where you have the Mac and the iPhone.

00:23:36 ◼   ► And then you have the Apple TV on the other hand where it's like almost no types of

00:23:40 ◼   ► apps will succeed here, but a couple will succeed well.

00:23:44 ◼   ► Apple TV is all about video and a little bit about games, and nothing else makes any sense

00:23:49 ◼   ► there.

00:23:50 ◼   ► There's a lot of things on there, but no one does and should.

00:23:53 ◼   ► And the iPad is somewhere in the middle.

00:23:55 ◼   ► The iPad is a device where it actually makes a ton of sense to make your app for the iPad

00:24:00 ◼   ► if your app is in certain markets.

00:24:02 ◼   ► I would say definitely if it's about video consumption, absolutely make an iPad version.

00:24:08 ◼   ► If it's about photo editing or drawing, the things where the iPad's really good, absolutely

00:24:13 ◼   ► make an iPad version.

00:24:15 ◼   ► But it is, in reality, you're right, most iPad usage does seem to be content consumption.

00:24:22 ◼   ► So it's like if you're making games and video stuff, great, you'll probably succeed there.

00:24:27 ◼   ► But if you're making productivity apps, it really depends.

00:24:31 ◼   ► It depends on so many things.

00:24:33 ◼   ► I think a lot of the difference is like, as much as Apple has pushed the iPad into pro

00:24:38 ◼   ► roles in its marketing and its pricing, ultimately the majority of what Apple would even classify

00:24:46 ◼   ► as pro work still happens on Macs and PCs way more.

00:24:52 ◼   ► And a lot of that's because of just inherent issues with dealing with things like files

00:24:55 ◼   ► and file-based projects and multiple apps on the iPad.

00:24:58 ◼   ► But the reality is most pro work is done on PCs and Macs.

00:25:04 ◼   ► And where the iPad can really shine is in a similar way to where the iPhone can shine.

00:25:08 ◼   ► It can shine in like a casual version of pro work, like a more accessible version of tasks

00:25:14 ◼   ► that are commonly done only on pro software on computers.

00:25:16 ◼   ► So for instance, photo editing is a great example.

00:25:19 ◼   ► On the Mac, you have Photoshop and you have some smaller ones, you have things like Acorn,

00:25:25 ◼   ► Pixelmator, but most photo editing on the Mac is being done by pros in Photoshop probably,

00:25:31 ◼   ► right?

00:25:32 ◼   ► And those people are never gonna go to iPad in meaningful numbers, because their whole

00:25:35 ◼   ► workflows around the Mac and everything, you're never gonna get those people.

00:25:38 ◼   ► They don't have them now.

00:25:39 ◼   ► They try, but they don't have them now.

00:25:41 ◼   ► But something that, like, I don't have a pro drawing app on my computer, because I don't

00:25:47 ◼   ► need pro drawing ever.

00:25:48 ◼   ► But I do occasionally like casual drawing.

00:25:51 ◼   ► And you know what's really great in casual drawing?

00:25:53 ◼   ► Linnea on the iPad.

00:25:56 ◼   ► And there's so many other things like that where like, I don't like, you know, most people

00:25:59 ◼   ► don't need like logic on their computer, but they might have fun playing around with GarageBand

00:26:04 ◼   ► on the iPad.

00:26:05 ◼   ► You know, like, and so for like the more like, the more casual and accessible version of

00:26:10 ◼   ► things like that, even, you know, outside of Apple's offerings, like, there's this great

00:26:13 ◼   ► series of music synthesizer kind of apps for the iPad.

00:26:16 ◼   ► Like I played with one called Oxy a while back, where it's like, you know, this super

00:26:20 ◼   ► accessible simple app for making loops and music and stuff.

00:26:22 ◼   ► And it's incredible.

00:26:23 ◼   ► And like on the Mac, you don't have stuff like that usually.

00:26:26 ◼   ► So like, I think there is opportunity for like productivity style apps or creation style

00:26:33 ◼   ► apps on the iPad and for real businesses there, if you keep it casual, if you keep it accessible,

00:26:39 ◼   ► if you're not trying to be the next Photoshop or the next Logic, like, because you won't.

00:26:45 ◼   ► You won't succeed in that.

00:26:46 ◼   ► And that's why I think like Linnea is a great example of like, this is an app that is by

00:26:50 ◼   ► the Icon Factory and it's like, it's a drawing app.

00:26:53 ◼   ► It's a really good drawing app, but it's not Photoshop and it's not Illustrator.

00:26:57 ◼   ► And it's not like, it's not one of the, you know, Procreate, another great example, Procreate

00:27:00 ◼   ► on the iPad is a fantastic drawing app.

00:27:02 ◼   ► Because this is like taking advantage of something the iPad can do well and that people are actually

00:27:06 ◼   ► doing on the iPad as opposed to like, you know, like, you know, you might get a distorted

00:27:11 ◼   ► view of how much productivity work is being done on iPads if you listen to, you know,

00:27:15 ◼   ► like our friends who all love iPads a lot and try to use them for as much as they can.

00:27:20 ◼   ► But I think the reality is, you're right, that most iPad usage is consumption based

00:27:24 ◼   ► and casual creation like this.

00:27:26 ◼   ► And so if you want a decent chance of succeeding business-wise on the iPad, those are the areas

00:27:32 ◼   ► you should be focused on.

00:27:34 ◼   ► And if you want to do something like make it, you know, an entire like, you know, Photoshop

00:27:38 ◼   ► or audio editor kind of thing for iPad, like you can try, but it's, you're going to have

00:27:43 ◼   ► an uphill battle business-wise.

00:27:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, and that's just like, and that's the unfortunate reality, I think, is that it's

00:27:49 ◼   ► like you can try, but it's going to be a hard thing and it becomes a question of, or you

00:27:54 ◼   ► could like do something on the iPhone where you have, you know, I have a node, 10, 100,

00:28:00 ◼   ► 1,000 times more users who you could potentially, you know, get your app in front of.

00:28:06 ◼   ► Like I think ultimately with me, what ended up happening is it's like the iPad, there's

00:28:10 ◼   ► a lot of potential, but the potential is sort of overshadowed by the iPhone and it doesn't

00:28:17 ◼   ► have this inherent sort of pull for it on the economic side.

00:28:20 ◼   ► And so you just kind of end up like you could, and some people do, and I'm sure some people

00:28:24 ◼   ► find success, but it's, you know, it just isn't compelling in the way that, you know,

00:28:31 ◼   ► developing for the iPhone is and continues to be.

00:28:35 ◼   ► - You're playing on hard mode, basically.

00:28:36 ◼   ► If you're making an app that's only for the iPad that's not going to have a successful

00:28:40 ◼   ► iPhone companion app, like you're playing on hard mode economically.

00:28:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, and some people like playing on hard mode and like, if that's you, great, you know,

00:28:48 ◼   ► like enjoy it, but I'm not sure I would recommend that necessarily if you're, you know, if you're

00:28:53 ◼   ► an independent developer trying to make a sustainable living.

00:28:57 ◼   ► - And someday I think Catalyst might change this for some things, but so far it hasn't.

00:29:02 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:29:03 ◼   ► - So.

00:29:04 ◼   ► - And either as SwiftUI or any of these things, like there's a lot of, it's like the iPad,

00:29:08 ◼   ► lots of promise, it hasn't really panned out though.

00:29:11 ◼   ► - But someday.

00:29:12 ◼   ► - But someday.

00:29:13 ◼   ► Every, every year of, you know, iPad productivity explosion or something.

00:29:17 ◼   ► - On the desktop, yeah.

00:29:18 ◼   ► - On the desktop.

00:29:19 ◼   ► - Thanks for listening everybody, and we'll talk to you in two weeks.

00:29:23 ◼   ► Bye.

00:29:23 ◼   ► [BLANK_AUDIO]