Under the Radar

00:00:00 ◼   ► Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development.

00:00:04 ◼   ► I'm Marco Arment.

00:00:05 ◼   ► And I'm David Smith.

00:00:06 ◼   ► Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.

00:00:10 ◼   ► So I feel like having been in this industry for like 13 years, there's this natural sort

00:00:16 ◼   ► of cyclical process that happens where inevitably things will be made, people will create apps,

00:00:22 ◼   ► things will happen on the App Store, and there'll be a controversy and things will spring up

00:00:27 ◼   ► around those.

00:00:28 ◼   ► And I've been through enough of these to know that getting too bogged down into the specifics

00:00:33 ◼   ► of whatever the current one is, is not particularly helpful, especially when those specific situations

00:00:39 ◼   ► at a certain point end up just turning into personal attacks and yelling, and that's not

00:00:43 ◼   ► helpful for anybody.

00:00:44 ◼   ► But often there is something to be learned from them.

00:00:47 ◼   ► And so I'm making vague reference to the recent question about sort of Wordle apps in the

00:00:52 ◼   ► App Store.

00:00:53 ◼   ► So Wordle was a website that didn't have an app, and then some people decided they wanted

00:00:56 ◼   ► to make apps for it.

00:00:58 ◼   ► And I don't think, going to get into the specifics of that, but I think it really is a general

00:01:03 ◼   ► lesson that we can talk about and potentially learn from that I think is useful to jump

00:01:06 ◼   ► into.

00:01:07 ◼   ► And that is, it's like, when you have an idea to make an app, should you?

00:01:12 ◼   ► And so sometimes it's easy to focus on the could I, like, you know, it's the can I make

00:01:19 ◼   ► something, is it technically interesting, or is there an engineering opportunity or things?

00:01:23 ◼   ► And there's also the question, I think that equally, or probably in some ways more importantly,

00:01:28 ◼   ► is to understanding whether you should pursue an opportunity, whether that's something like

00:01:33 ◼   ► this, where there's something, you know, sort of hip in the culture that you can feel like

00:01:37 ◼   ► you can take advantage of.

00:01:38 ◼   ► There's a new iOS version that introduces a new framework or something or whatever idea

00:01:44 ◼   ► it is that you have.

00:01:45 ◼   ► You know, there's always this question of like, should you pursue it?

00:01:48 ◼   ► Because ultimately, you know, you have a limited amount of time to work.

00:01:52 ◼   ► And so pursuing things that are ultimately going to end in frustration or disappointment

00:01:58 ◼   ► or conflict are unlikely to be sort of wise choices for things to spend your time on.

00:02:03 ◼   ► You want to spend your time or at least this is based on my experience, spend your time

00:02:07 ◼   ► on things that are not going to lead you to those paths.

00:02:09 ◼   ► They're gonna lead you with things that are, you know, create opportunities, create, you

00:02:14 ◼   ► know, community or encouragement and are overall sort of like just end up with you in a happy

00:02:20 ◼   ► place.

00:02:21 ◼   ► And I'm sure there is some business models and developers who kind of are seeking out

00:02:26 ◼   ► intentionally complicated and tricky and risky apps.

00:02:30 ◼   ► And I'm sure there is some sort of money to be made there potentially, but it's such so

00:02:34 ◼   ► high risk, so problematic in so many ways, I wouldn't recommend it.

00:02:39 ◼   ► And so instead, it's like the thought that I came up with, like trying to learn from

00:02:43 ◼   ► this is I want to boil down my recommendations.

00:02:45 ◼   ► It's sort of like there's two questions, and I think we'll unpack what they both mean in

00:02:49 ◼   ► this episode.

00:02:50 ◼   ► The first question is like, is this idea actually available?

00:02:55 ◼   ► And is it actually worthwhile?

00:02:57 ◼   ► And if you have an idea that is both actually available and is actually worthwhile, it's

00:03:02 ◼   ► probably worth doing, it's probably worth pursuing, or at least it's worth sort of paying

00:03:06 ◼   ► you paying attention to.

00:03:07 ◼   ► But if it isn't either of those, if it isn't actually available to you, or if it isn't

00:03:11 ◼   ► actually worthwhile, probably don't probably be the downside is going to be far larger

00:03:17 ◼   ► than the upside.

00:03:18 ◼   ► And so best to sort of stay away.

00:03:20 ◼   ► But before we dive into those questions, I was curious, Mark, like, do you have sort

00:03:23 ◼   ► of general takes on the direction I'm going?

00:03:25 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, in general, like, I mean, I've certainly been here a lot.

00:03:30 ◼   ► You know, I had the whole piece saga, I had the magazine.

00:03:34 ◼   ► In both cases, you know, I did something because I thought I could, and I was interested in

00:03:43 ◼   ► the technical side of it, but I didn't really think through or didn't know, like, hey,

00:03:49 ◼   ► how am I going to feel if this actually becomes a thing?

00:03:53 ◼   ► Like, in the case of the magazine, it's like, do I want to run a magazine forever that's

00:03:56 ◼   ► actually not doing that well?

00:03:57 ◼   ► And in the case of Pease, it's like, oh, crap, I am all of a sudden making a big splash

00:04:01 ◼   ► in the ad blocking business.

00:04:02 ◼   ► Do I really want to be making big splashes in the ad blocking business?

00:04:06 ◼   ► And there's, you know, in both cases, it didn't really go the way I wanted it to.

00:04:12 ◼   ► And I stepped away from both of them in different ways, because at the end of the day, I had

00:04:17 ◼   ► done something without really thinking about, like, should I do this?

00:04:22 ◼   ► And/or the related question of, like, what if this takes off, or what if it doesn't

00:04:27 ◼   ► take off, but I have to kind of maintain it forever or indefinitely?

00:04:30 ◼   ► And those are all major questions to ask yourself, some of which we've covered before on the

00:04:34 ◼   ► show.

00:04:35 ◼   ► And I think it's worth considering, like, you know, our entire job as indie developers,

00:04:42 ◼   ► usually we are free to try a lot of experiments, because usually we have, you know, those of

00:04:48 ◼   ► us who are working at other jobs to pay the bills, or those of us who, you know, who have,

00:04:55 ◼   ► like, our own companies or our own projects that are already going, we're given a lot

00:04:58 ◼   ► of freedom in our side projects to kind of do whatever we want, build something however

00:05:03 ◼   ► we want, use a different language, use a different framework, code things a certain way, or try,

00:05:09 ◼   ► you know, try an experimental something or other, because there's usually less pressure

00:05:13 ◼   ► in those contexts.

00:05:14 ◼   ► You know, at your day job, or your main project, or whatever your main source of income is,

00:05:18 ◼   ► you're like, you're told what to do, or you're pressured to do things a certain

00:05:22 ◼   ► way just because that's where the money comes from.

00:05:24 ◼   ► But then a side project or an indie project, you're kind of free to go in all sorts of

00:05:29 ◼   ► different directions, and we often don't ask ourselves, should I be doing this?

00:05:35 ◼   ► You know, usually it's more like, hey, I want to try this new framework, I'm going

00:05:38 ◼   ► to make something right now using that new framework, or I'm going to gut this whole

00:05:41 ◼   ► section of the app and rewrite it in this new language because I want to, you know,

00:05:46 ◼   ► rather than thinking, like, is this something I should be doing, or, you know, what's

00:05:50 ◼   ► the next step?

00:05:51 ◼   ► If I do this and if I complete this, then what happens?

00:05:55 ◼   ► You know, or, you know, in the case of what happened with Wurtle and its clones over the

00:05:59 ◼   ► last couple of weeks, like, you know, is the thing I'm doing a good idea if all of a

00:06:05 ◼   ► sudden a lot of people see it?

00:06:07 ◼   ► Like, if a lot of eyeballs fall into this all of a sudden, is that going to be a good

00:06:11 ◼   ► thing, or could that have negative side effects?

00:06:15 ◼   ► You know, and that's the kind of stuff that we don't usually ask ourselves nearly

00:06:19 ◼   ► as often as we should.

00:06:20 ◼   ► And I'm as guilty of this as anyone, but it's definitely, you know, as I'm getting

00:06:25 ◼   ► older and hopefully a little bit wiser as I go, this is one of the kind of things where,

00:06:30 ◼   ► like, I'm asking myself this kind of thing more often, and usually to my benefit.

00:06:34 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:06:35 ◼   ► And I think it's just the benefit of having that reluctance in it, or skepticism, maybe,

00:06:41 ◼   ► and really interrogating what the end state you're hoping will happen is and what that

00:06:47 ◼   ► would look like and what the implications of that fully are.

00:06:50 ◼   ► It's rather than sort of the, like, if you just sort of hoping for the best.

00:06:55 ◼   ► There's a world where hoping for the best is good, but in general, hoping for the best

00:06:58 ◼   ► is setting yourself up for pain in the future, rather than success.

00:07:05 ◼   ► So I think the first thing to talk about is sort of the availability of an idea.

00:07:08 ◼   ► And I think this is something that is just a useful thing to sort of interrogate for,

00:07:14 ◼   ► you know, is what you're going to make available to make?

00:07:18 ◼   ► Like, is it something that you can reasonably and legally and ethically and morally and

00:07:23 ◼   ► all those things feel like you can take ownership of?

00:07:26 ◼   ► That you can make this thing and say that you own that thing and that you made that

00:07:30 ◼   ► thing?

00:07:31 ◼   ► It's like, I feel like there's that internet meme of like someone who makes something and

00:07:34 ◼   ► someone else takes it and then says, like, "It's mine now."

00:07:38 ◼   ► And they made the thing.

00:07:39 ◼   ► It's like, maybe not.

00:07:40 ◼   ► Like, that's not great.

00:07:41 ◼   ► And I feel like availability, there's a couple of different ways that you can think about

00:07:46 ◼   ► that.

00:07:47 ◼   ► Like, the first question absolutely to ask is like, does this overlap with other things

00:07:52 ◼   ► that already exist?

00:07:53 ◼   ► And this is, in some ways, you could call this just market research, is understanding

00:07:58 ◼   ► if you're trying to meet a need, does the need exist?

00:08:02 ◼   ► Do other things already serve this need or this industry or this niche or whatever it

00:08:07 ◼   ► is that you're going after?

00:08:08 ◼   ► Like, what is the existing landscape look like there?

00:08:12 ◼   ► And that's useful from a marketing perspective in terms of understanding what your competitors

00:08:16 ◼   ► are.

00:08:17 ◼   ► But also, it's useful, I think, to make sure you understand that is there something in

00:08:20 ◼   ► this space that you are going to be copying too much with your idea, your implementation,

00:08:26 ◼   ► your marketing, your branding, whatever it is, is there something else that exists that

00:08:31 ◼   ► is going to catch you up?

00:08:32 ◼   ► And if you don't take the time to look around and understand what already exists, you're

00:08:37 ◼   ► not going to be able to sort of answer the next kind of questions.

00:08:40 ◼   ► And I think the next one's become like, this sort of hierarchy of, is it legal to make

00:08:45 ◼   ► this thing that I want to make?

00:08:46 ◼   ► You know, is it actually available legally?

00:08:48 ◼   ► And this is usually getting into things like trademarks, copyrights, patents.

00:08:52 ◼   ► Are there legal protections that would prevent you from doing something?

00:08:55 ◼   ► And I think in general, it's like trademarks are probably the easiest place to start, that

00:08:59 ◼   ► it's like if you're trying to brand something with the same name as something else that

00:09:03 ◼   ► already has that name as its brand, you're starting off in a legally questionable place.

00:09:08 ◼   ► And so it's like starting off with the just like, am I going to be infringing on someone

00:09:11 ◼   ► else's trademarks, patents, copyright, if I go down this, and then sort of the next

00:09:16 ◼   ► level of legal, which is, I think, specific to in some ways, like working in the App Store,

00:09:21 ◼   ► is this going to pass App Review, which is a certain kind of legality.

00:09:25 ◼   ► It's not legality in the sense of, you know, a government of a sovereign nation.

00:09:29 ◼   ► It's legal in the sense of is Apple going to make a fuss about this?

00:09:33 ◼   ► Is this going to be compliant with the App Store guidelines?

00:09:36 ◼   ► And obviously, there's an intersection between real legal and App Store legal.

00:09:42 ◼   ► Apple is trying to, there's certain rules that overlap there that Apple is trying to

00:09:45 ◼   ► enforce the law of the countries in which they operate.

00:09:48 ◼   ► And then there's just things that Apple cares about or that they're focused on.

00:09:51 ◼   ► And then things that you have to do to be compliant there that are distinct from that.

00:09:55 ◼   ► A good place to start is to understand what the competitive landscape is, and then check

00:10:02 ◼   ► if it meets those things.

00:10:03 ◼   ► Like don't need, like anytime you're going to launch an app with it, before you like

00:10:07 ◼   ► go into App Store, connect and type in the name, go and do a trademark search in a bunch

00:10:12 ◼   ► of places and make sure that it doesn't exist or even Google search that name in as many

00:10:16 ◼   ► places, you know, in context as you can and make sure that there's not something that

00:10:21 ◼   ► you're not aware of, because it doesn't overlap with you.

00:10:23 ◼   ► But there's going to cause trouble down the road, because that's just the nature of naming

00:10:28 ◼   ► is that even if it isn't exactly in the same industry, you might sort of be able to get

00:10:32 ◼   ► away with trademark stuff potentially.

00:10:34 ◼   ► But it's like you're setting yourself up for a fight if you're naming yourself something

00:10:38 ◼   ► that it already exists somewhere else in the world.

00:10:42 ◼   ► There's not a lot of absolute showstoppers for a new idea or a new app for me.

00:10:47 ◼   ► But if there is some kind of clear trademark conflict or even likely partial trademark

00:10:54 ◼   ► conflict, I will not proceed until I get a name that is clear.

00:10:58 ◼   ► And trademark is easy, you know, trademark is trademarks cover names, they don't cover

00:11:01 ◼   ► ideas, they don't cover icons, they are sort of but they cover mostly names.

00:11:07 ◼   ► And so it's very, very easy to avoid a trademark problem.

00:11:11 ◼   ► Just find a name that doesn't conflict.

00:11:12 ◼   ► And as you said, the trademark search, they're easy, they're free USPTO.gov, and Google even

00:11:17 ◼   ► has a pretty good one.

00:11:18 ◼   ► Like there's Google the name, search for the trademark on USPTO, and just make sure there

00:11:23 ◼   ► are no direct or nearby trademark conflicts to what you're doing.

00:11:28 ◼   ► So that's easy, easy to avoid.

00:11:31 ◼   ► Even if you totally clone someone else's app, I'll get to that in a minute, but even if

00:11:34 ◼   ► you totally clone someone else's app, at least have the courtesy to not infringe upon their

00:11:38 ◼   ► trademark.

00:11:39 ◼   ► It's very, very easy not to.

00:11:41 ◼   ► And so, as for other IP searches, like copyright is pretty easy not to infringe upon.

00:11:48 ◼   ► Don't copy someone else's icon.

00:11:49 ◼   ► Like that's basically like your biggest risk as an app developer.

00:11:52 ◼   ► Like if you have an exact copy of their icon, that's illegal.

00:11:56 ◼   ► However, if you have a similar concept, that's generally okay.

00:12:02 ◼   ► Like a similar concept, but like you or someone you hired drew an original drawing of it that

00:12:08 ◼   ► is not exactly the same looking and doesn't look like an obvious derivative of the other

00:12:12 ◼   ► one, then you're generally okay with copyright.

00:12:15 ◼   ► Patents, I would suggest never look because the road software patents is so toxic and

00:12:20 ◼   ► dysfunctional and has a lot of risks and stuff that you don't even realize.

00:12:24 ◼   ► It is generally best, don't even bother looking if your app is infringed upon somebody's

00:12:29 ◼   ► patents because A, you probably won't find it because patents are written in such a way

00:12:35 ◼   ► to be intentionally obtuse and broad and vague to avoid people finding out whether they're

00:12:41 ◼   ► infringing so that way the trolls can come up later and attack you.

00:12:45 ◼   ► So it's really, it's a terrible world.

00:12:48 ◼   ► Just don't even worry, for God's sake don't file patents because you're either a jerk

00:12:53 ◼   ► or a fool if you file patents.

00:12:54 ◼   ► But yeah, just don't stay away from that world entirely and generally you'll be alright.

00:13:00 ◼   ► So other than that, then you get to things like, you mentioned the legality things.

00:13:07 ◼   ► Apple can pretty clearly enforce things like icon copyright and they can clearly enforce

00:13:11 ◼   ► trademark if you have a trademark filed as a trademark owner.

00:13:16 ◼   ► If you don't have a trademark filed, it's harder for apps, for the app store dispute

00:13:24 ◼   ► process to enforce things for you.

00:13:27 ◼   ► This is one of the reasons why I think if you have the means to file a trademark on

00:13:30 ◼   ► your app name, I strongly suggest you do so.

00:13:33 ◼   ► It's not that hard, it costs maybe between $1,000 and $2,000 for most of the time.

00:13:40 ◼   ► It depends on the lawyer you hire to do it.

00:13:41 ◼   ► But it is something that I strongly recommend, getting a trademark if you can.

00:13:45 ◼   ► That also protects you from other companies saying, "Hey, you might be infringing upon

00:13:49 ◼   ► our trademark because if you got USPTO to grant you one, that is a pretty good sign

00:13:54 ◼   ► that your use of it is considered valid."

00:13:57 ◼   ► So anyway, all that stuff aside, should you make your app?

00:14:02 ◼   ► And then I think let's talk about the moral and ethical part.

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00:14:58 ◼   ► Yeah, I feel like the moral and ethical aspect of this is obviously I think where you start

00:15:03 ◼   ► to get into things that become inherently more gray than the legal side of things.

00:15:09 ◼   ► That if someone has a trademark for something, you make something that has the same name,

00:15:13 ◼   ► that's illegal.

00:15:14 ◼   ► And that's pretty straightforward.

00:15:16 ◼   ► Moral and ethical is obviously going to be something that varies from person to person.

00:15:21 ◼   ► And I imagine you and I have, I think based on our experience, I think we have sort of

00:15:26 ◼   ► strongly overlapping views on something like this.

00:15:28 ◼   ► But even there, they're probably going to be somewhat different.

00:15:31 ◼   ► But the reality is, the first question is it's making sure that what you're doing is

00:15:35 ◼   ► consistent with your views on this, that you are interrogating those feelings and the realities

00:15:40 ◼   ► of this, and that you're doing something that you're going to ultimately feel good about

00:15:44 ◼   ► in the future, if you put this out into the world and it's successful and gets attention.

00:15:50 ◼   ► And is the attention it gets going to be something that you feel comfortable with, defending

00:15:54 ◼   ► and being a position that you are comfortable with?

00:15:58 ◼   ► And I feel like for me, in terms of is it available, is this overlapping other things

00:16:02 ◼   ► that people are doing?

00:16:03 ◼   ► A lot of it is from a moral and ethical reason for me is it's like, is what I'm doing trying

00:16:08 ◼   ► to take away from someone else?

00:16:11 ◼   ► Or is it sort of running parallel?

00:16:14 ◼   ► Or is it sort of subtractive to someone else?

00:16:18 ◼   ► And as soon as it becomes subtractive to someone else, that I'm trying to take something that

00:16:21 ◼   ► someone else has done, and sort of take it for my own, it starts to feel not so great.

00:16:28 ◼   ► It starts to feel like you're stealing.

00:16:30 ◼   ► And stealing is a complicated word for something like this.

00:16:33 ◼   ► It's intellectual property, it doesn't physically exist, but it's still gonna have financial

00:16:36 ◼   ► impacts.

00:16:37 ◼   ► But whatever you want, however you want to sort of phrase it with whatever words you

00:16:40 ◼   ► want to use, there's that sense of, is this additive to the world?

00:16:45 ◼   ► Or is this subtractive to someone else?

00:16:47 ◼   ► Am I just trying to clone and copy what someone else has done and confuse people into thinking

00:16:54 ◼   ► my thing is their thing or taking something away from someone?

00:16:58 ◼   ► Or is it, I have a remix on that, that I think is interesting and additive and meaningfully

00:17:05 ◼   ► different than the source material?

00:17:08 ◼   ► Because the reality is, is there's always going to be some amount of combination of

00:17:12 ◼   ► things that exist previously to whatever it is you're doing.

00:17:16 ◼   ► That is just the nature of creative work that you are building on past influences, and hopefully

00:17:22 ◼   ► building on them in a way that is constructive and additive and creating your own new thing

00:17:27 ◼   ► that someone else could be inspired by in the future.

00:17:30 ◼   ► And the more you're going down that way, the stronger ground you are on sort of morally

00:17:36 ◼   ► and ethically.

00:17:37 ◼   ► Like when you made Overcast, there existed dozens of other podcast players.

00:17:43 ◼   ► Within each of those, probably every feature and function in Overcast in some form to some

00:17:48 ◼   ► degree exists, and you are combining them and you're adding more to them and you're

00:17:52 ◼   ► implementing them in a way that is additive and creative.

00:17:55 ◼   ► And I think Overcast did a great job of that, of not just being, you know, just like one

00:18:00 ◼   ► other podcast player.

00:18:02 ◼   ► But you could have gone down a road very much sort of different to that, where it became,

00:18:06 ◼   ► felt much more just straight derivative copy, taking someone else's work and passing it

00:18:11 ◼   ► off as your own.

00:18:12 ◼   ► And that's where for me it would start to feel like, hmm, this doesn't feel very moral

00:18:16 ◼   ► or ethical to do.

00:18:17 ◼   ► Yeah, I think the key differentiator for me, whether something is like, you know, a rip

00:18:22 ◼   ► off bad copy or whether something is like a good new concept and remix or whatever,

00:18:27 ◼   ► is how much are you drawing inspiration from just one other app?

00:18:33 ◼   ► Sure.

00:18:34 ◼   ► If your entire app is "inspired" only by one other app, that's going to be uncomfortable.

00:18:41 ◼   ► If it looks like your app is basically just that app or a copy of that app or something

00:18:47 ◼   ► that is trying to be a copy of that app, you're probably not in a good spot.

00:18:52 ◼   ► Whereas if you're taking diverse influences from lots of different places and combining

00:18:58 ◼   ► those in a new way that they have not been clearly combined in before, and hopefully

00:19:05 ◼   ► you're adding some of your own stuff to it as well, but if you have a diverse selection

00:19:10 ◼   ► of inspiration sources, if it's multiple things being combined or showing influence,

00:19:16 ◼   ► you're generally okay.

00:19:18 ◼   ► That's the big thing.

00:19:19 ◼   ► If it's all just like, so in the case of Wordle, if your app looks exactly like Wordle

00:19:24 ◼   ► and pretty much nothing else, then you're in a bad spot.

00:19:28 ◼   ► Whereas if you just make a word game that has a similar mechanic but maybe introduces

00:19:33 ◼   ► other things to it and isn't called Wordle, maybe it's called Wordsmith, who knows,

00:19:39 ◼   ► if you're making something that is in the ballpark but doesn't try to be Wordle and

00:19:47 ◼   ► isn't trying to trick people into thinking it is the official Wordle app, then you're

00:19:52 ◼   ► generally safe.

00:19:53 ◼   ► If you're drawing multiple inspiration sources and not trying to confuse people into thinking

00:19:58 ◼   ► it is that other app, that's a good place to be.

00:20:01 ◼   ► And that's totally fine.

00:20:02 ◼   ► And there's nothing wrong.

00:20:03 ◼   ► Occasionally, I steal features from people because they do them and they're really

00:20:07 ◼   ► good.

00:20:08 ◼   ► And it's like, okay, you know what?

00:20:09 ◼   ► I have to do that feature now.

00:20:10 ◼   ► My customers are now demanding that feature.

00:20:12 ◼   ► When I do that, I try to do it in a way that is respectful of whatever app invented at

00:20:15 ◼   ► first or whatever apps are out there that currently have it.

00:20:19 ◼   ► And I try to do it in my own way.

00:20:21 ◼   ► Like I go around, take screenshots of the other apps that have it, and I'm like, all

00:20:23 ◼   ► right, let me just make sure I'm doing it in a way that doesn't look like a direct

00:20:26 ◼   ► clone of somebody else or it doesn't take exactly their name or icon for this thing

00:20:32 ◼   ► if I don't need to.

00:20:33 ◼   ► Stuff like that, you know?

00:20:35 ◼   ► And it's important for me, like right before I launched Overcast, I changed the icon because

00:20:41 ◼   ► there was another podcast app at the time called Instacast that had recently changed

00:20:45 ◼   ► their icon into what I was about to launch as my icon.

00:20:49 ◼   ► And I'm like, well, even though we both came upon this independently, I can't do that.

00:20:55 ◼   ► I can't launch a podcast app that has a very, very similar icon to this other existing podcast

00:21:00 ◼   ► app.

00:21:01 ◼   ► So I changed the icon.

00:21:02 ◼   ► No big deal.

00:21:03 ◼   ► That's the kind of stuff you have to be aware of.

00:21:04 ◼   ► Like if it looks like a direct copy of something else, you're in trouble.

00:21:08 ◼   ► If you're bringing your own stuff to it from lots of different inspiration sources and

00:21:11 ◼   ► it doesn't look just exactly like something else, you're probably in the clear.

00:21:14 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:21:15 ◼   ► I think too, this is an area where I would say that because it is the squishiest and

00:21:19 ◼   ► the slightly like you'll know it when you see it kind of thing is it's a great place

00:21:22 ◼   ► to get is white of a diversity of opinions from people you trust and know.

00:21:28 ◼   ► If you're in any way unsure as to like, is this a good idea?

00:21:32 ◼   ► I think it might be a good idea.

00:21:33 ◼   ► I'm not sure.

00:21:34 ◼   ► Is it a good idea?

00:21:35 ◼   ► If you start asking yourself that question a lot, ask a bunch of people that you know

00:21:38 ◼   ► and trust and see if you get a consistent voice out of that or if you get like a variety

00:21:43 ◼   ► of opinions, if you get different perspectives, because I feel like it is so easy to sometimes

00:21:48 ◼   ► because you want something to be a certain way, you can start to rationalize it yourself.

00:21:53 ◼   ► But when you have to explain it to someone else or someone else has to see it and look

00:21:57 ◼   ► at what you're saying, it puts it in a very different light that can be very helpful and

00:22:01 ◼   ► constructive in making sure that you're not missing something or overly just justifying

00:22:06 ◼   ► something that you want to believe but isn't actually how you really believe.

00:22:09 ◼   ► That if someone else says the same words back to you from an outside perspective, something

00:22:13 ◼   ► sometimes it can sound very different.

00:22:15 ◼   ► You're like, "Oh, no.

00:22:16 ◼   ► Yeah, you're right.

00:22:17 ◼   ► I shouldn't do this.

00:22:18 ◼   ► This is a bad idea."

00:22:19 ◼   ► I think the world thing is also, it brings an interesting little area of questionable

00:22:22 ◼   ► behavior because world doesn't have an app.

00:22:26 ◼   ► It's just a web page and there is no app in the App Store and lots of people search for

00:22:30 ◼   ► it in the App Store, which is why all those clone apps were able to get so many downloads

00:22:33 ◼   ► and stuff.

00:22:34 ◼   ► You could argue like, well, they're just addressing the demand that the creator doesn't address.

00:22:39 ◼   ► But in that case, that seems like a justification but in reality, that's the creator's prerogative

00:22:47 ◼   ► to take that with their name and their design and their app, they can choose where to do

00:22:52 ◼   ► it.

00:22:53 ◼   ► Just like no one else is free to make an Overcast clone called Overcast on Android just because

00:22:58 ◼   ► I refuse to address that market.

00:23:00 ◼   ► That doesn't make it okay for someone else to do that.

00:23:03 ◼   ► Same thing with this kind of context.

00:23:05 ◼   ► Just because if you are taking someone's videos that aren't on YouTube and putting them on

00:23:09 ◼   ► YouTube on your own channel because they didn't address the YouTube demand, that's still a

00:23:14 ◼   ► violation.

00:23:16 ◼   ► Do your own thing even if the creators of the thing that you're trying to copy are not

00:23:20 ◼   ► taking an opportunity.

00:23:21 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:23:22 ◼   ► I think that's just that sense of that's just not available for you.

00:23:26 ◼   ► It may be an unmet need but it's not available for someone else to capitalize on.

00:23:31 ◼   ► Just because it exists doesn't mean that it's available.

00:23:33 ◼   ► Right.

00:23:34 ◼   ► The lesson they're learning is if I won't bring a good podcast app to Android, maybe

00:23:39 ◼   ► there's a market for other good podcast apps on Android.

00:23:42 ◼   ► Create a good podcast app.

00:23:43 ◼   ► Don't create Overcast.

00:23:45 ◼   ► If this word game is exploding as just a web page and there's all this unaddressed demand

00:23:49 ◼   ► on the App Store, you know what?

00:23:50 ◼   ► Make a good word game on the App Store and you have a good chance of success.

00:23:54 ◼   ► That's what this shows you.

00:23:55 ◼   ► Not copy this game with this name.

00:23:58 ◼   ► That's a very different thing.

00:23:59 ◼   ► I think a good place to close too is understanding even if you get through that sense of this

00:24:03 ◼   ► is an available idea, it's something that's worth doing, it's ethical, it's moral, it's

00:24:06 ◼   ► moral, it's legal, it's all those things, should you actually do it?

00:24:10 ◼   ► I think the questions that I started asking myself about this is the sense of it's like,

00:24:15 ◼   ► do I have a unique opportunity or take on this idea?

00:24:19 ◼   ► And the key thing there is unique.

00:24:21 ◼   ► Am I actually adding something that is truly unique into this area?

00:24:26 ◼   ► If I do, then that's awesome.

00:24:27 ◼   ► If I don't, then maybe it's not actually worthwhile me doing.

00:24:31 ◼   ► Is this going to be long-term sustainable?

00:24:34 ◼   ► And in that sense, what I mean is I've spent a little bit of time in my career, whatever,

00:24:38 ◼   ► 60 apps I've launched, where sometimes I've been chasing after very narrow opportunities

00:24:43 ◼   ► where things were like adding an emoji keyboard when keyboards were a thing.

00:24:49 ◼   ► That app existed and had its very brief moment in the sun and then immediately was like Sherlock

00:24:54 ◼   ► by Apple and fell apart.

00:24:56 ◼   ► And it's like, that did not have a long-term sustainable model.

00:24:59 ◼   ► And maybe you could make money in the short term with that, but I would say in general,

00:25:02 ◼   ► if it's not long-term sustainable, it's probably not worth it.

00:25:05 ◼   ► Next question is like, is it actually interesting to you?

00:25:07 ◼   ► Is this an app that you would enjoy making?

00:25:09 ◼   ► Are you making something purely because you think someone else will like it or there's

00:25:15 ◼   ► this market opportunity?

00:25:17 ◼   ► If you're not actually excited about it, if you're not actually interested in it, it's

00:25:20 ◼   ► going to be really hard to be excited about and working on it on version 1.1 and version

00:25:24 ◼   ► 2.

00:25:25 ◼   ► You're setting yourself up for a future of annoyance and frustration, I think.

00:25:30 ◼   ► And then lastly is understanding, it's like, if this succeeds, if this is popular, am I

00:25:35 ◼   ► setting myself up and creating sort of liabilities for myself?

00:25:38 ◼   ► And the things that come to mind for me with this is always, does this involve user-generated

00:25:42 ◼   ► content?

00:25:43 ◼   ► And it's like, if it does, am I willing to take on the responsibility of moderating,

00:25:48 ◼   ► managing, dealing with all of what that means?

00:25:51 ◼   ► Run away.

00:25:52 ◼   ► And in general, it's probably not worthwhile.

00:25:56 ◼   ► There's a popular app right now called Lockit, which is a widget app, so I was very aware

00:26:01 ◼   ► of it.

00:26:02 ◼   ► And what it does is it lets you have a widget that you and someone else share.

00:26:07 ◼   ► You have a widget where someone else can put a photo into your widget and someone else

00:26:13 ◼   ► can put a photo into yours.

00:26:14 ◼   ► And it's kind of a way that if you would imagine a couple to be able to send these little pictures

00:26:20 ◼   ► of each other throughout the day, I see that and I'm like, "That is a cool idea.

00:26:25 ◼   ► I can understand why it's popular."

00:26:27 ◼   ► I don't want to go anywhere near that because I'm transferring photos, essentially personal

00:26:33 ◼   ► photos between two people and then having to navigate and manage the responsibility

00:26:38 ◼   ► for that to some degree.

00:26:39 ◼   ► And even if I do this in a way that I don't have that data at all, there's a certain responsibility

00:26:43 ◼   ► I'm taking on for myself.

00:26:44 ◼   ► And so it's creating a liability that's like, "I just don't want to go near that."

00:26:48 ◼   ► So these are the questions you need to ask because you need to imagine not sort of the

00:26:54 ◼   ► – like will you be comfortable doing this at scale if it is successful, if it does take

00:27:00 ◼   ► off?

00:27:01 ◼   ► What are the implications of that and would it still be worthwhile to do in that case?

00:27:05 ◼   ► Again, this is like what happens if this succeeds?

00:27:09 ◼   ► What happens if this takes off or even not only is it just like what happens if this

00:27:14 ◼   ► explodes and gets number one in the App Store, but just like what happens if this just has

00:27:18 ◼   ► moderate success and I have to maintain it over time to serve the customers?

00:27:21 ◼   ► Like there are so many loads that that can create on somebody and obligations like, "Hey,

00:27:27 ◼   ► maybe publishing a magazine every two weeks forever is not a thing I'm going to enjoy

00:27:31 ◼   ► doing."

00:27:32 ◼   ► And as you mentioned, is this even a business I want to be in if I succeed?

00:27:37 ◼   ► I can't tell you how many ideas I've had for other content blocking methods and ways

00:27:42 ◼   ► to make the web more tolerable, but you know what?

00:27:45 ◼   ► I hate the modern web.

00:27:48 ◼   ► If I made an app that was like make the web more tolerable, it would feel like janitorial

00:27:53 ◼   ► work to me.

00:27:54 ◼   ► It's like, "You know what?

00:27:55 ◼   ► Now every day I have a new pile of crap that the web has given me that I have to figure

00:27:57 ◼   ► out how to deal with."

00:27:58 ◼   ► And that's just like a negative life for me.

00:28:01 ◼   ► I don't want that.

00:28:04 ◼   ► And there are so many things like podcast hosting ideas or podcast tooling ideas that

00:28:09 ◼   ► I've had where it'd be like, "Well then my customers would be like people's fine

00:28:15 ◼   ► workflow details or getting in the way of them and their money."

00:28:19 ◼   ► Things that like, "I don't want to be in that position."

00:28:22 ◼   ► So yeah, this is an area where it's hard to think this way when you have this great

00:28:28 ◼   ► idea you want to do in your mind and that's really pushing you, but it really does benefit

00:28:32 ◼   ► a lot to be able to step back before you plow forward with an idea to be like, "Okay,

00:28:37 ◼   ► should I do this?

00:28:39 ◼   ► What will happen if this works?

00:28:41 ◼   ► What position will I then be in?

00:28:42 ◼   ► And am I going to want to deal with a certain type of thing forever?"

00:28:48 ◼   ► And not forever, but indefinitely into the future.

00:28:50 ◼   ► "Am I going to want to have to do X, Y, Z every day or every week or every two weeks?

00:28:55 ◼   ► Am I going to want to deal with the emails or legal problems this might bring on me?"

00:29:00 ◼   ► Et cetera.

00:29:01 ◼   ► And I think hopefully you can find opportunities that meet both of these things that are available

00:29:06 ◼   ► and you feel good about doing.

00:29:08 ◼   ► They're worthwhile.

00:29:09 ◼   ► Those are going to create a long-term sustainable thing that you're going to enjoy and be

00:29:12 ◼   ► interested in without a lot of negativity and bad downside to it.

00:29:18 ◼   ► And if you can, awesome.

00:29:19 ◼   ► Run with that.

00:29:20 ◼   ► Be excited about it and pursue it.

00:29:21 ◼   ► And that's where I feel like you're going to be able to have the most satisfying work,

00:29:26 ◼   ► opportunity, and stay away from these barbed wire fences on either side that sometimes

00:29:32 ◼   ► can look nice, that there are opportunities there.

00:29:35 ◼   ► But going down there is inevitably just going to lead to a lot of conflict and difficulty

00:29:38 ◼   ► and setting yourself up for hardship in the future.

00:29:41 ◼   ► Yeah, just make a nice word game.

00:29:43 ◼   ► People love them.

00:29:44 ◼   ► Thanks for listening, everybody.

00:29:45 ◼   ► We'll talk to you in two weeks.

00:29:47 ◼   ► Bye.

00:29:47 ◼   ► [BLANK_AUDIO]