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The Accidental Tech Podcast

266: Text Adventure Mode

 

02:00:00   source of excitement for you like like

02:00:02   what like when I kind of fell out of

02:00:04   love with BMW that was easy for me

02:00:05   because now I'm now I'm a big fan of

02:00:08   Tesla and so like it just kind of got

02:00:09   replaced the reason the Apple stuff bugs

02:00:12   me so much is that like I haven't

02:00:13   replaced that yet in my life and I don't

02:00:15   really know what will replace it

02:00:17   replaced it with video games yeah you

02:00:21   love video games now more than you have

02:00:23   in a long time that's replacing your

02:00:24   Apple of I mean I love yeah I love a few

02:00:26   video games I would hardly call it like

02:00:30   a cat you just said that this which is

02:00:31   like the best gaming thing you've had

02:00:33   since like your childhood yes you know

02:00:35   Sega so I think that's that's pretty

02:00:37   high praise and the grand scheme of

02:00:39   things that you have loved in your life

02:00:41   and that video games may say if the next

02:00:43   Nintendo thing is like that doesn't

02:00:44   appeal to you or doesn't have good games

02:00:46   and then you'll be all excited about

02:00:47   your new Jaguar ipace I would probably

02:00:51   like no matter how good or appealing it

02:00:53   was I don't think I would ever actually

02:00:55   buy a car from that brand because I just

02:00:58   never want to have to say it to people

02:00:59   you know you don't have to say Jaguar

02:01:02   you can just say Jaguar you can say

02:01:03   Jaguar like Steve Jobs oh god no I mean

02:01:05   it but the problem is like no matter at

02:01:06   first of all it's kind of like like a

02:01:09   brand right no it's I mean they both are

02:01:17   to some degree like it is it is it is

02:01:19   snootier sounding but I think if you had

02:01:23   to picture the kind of person who drives

02:01:24   a Jaguar and the kind of person who

02:01:25   drives a BMW and you're gonna sign

02:01:27   you're gonna put a label underneath one

02:01:29   of them it's definitely going either

02:01:32   brand if you if somebody asks you like

02:01:35   out like it out loud in a roomful of

02:01:38   other people who are being kind of quiet

02:01:39   hey what brand is your car like if you

02:01:41   have a BMW you you want to say that a

02:01:43   little bit quietly if I had a Jag I'd be

02:01:46   I'd like I would just be like I don't

02:01:47   have a car like I think the Jaguar

02:01:54   product of managers you know marketing

02:01:57   managers would love to hear you say that

02:01:58   because that's the image they want they

02:01:59   want it to be like snooty and

02:02:01   highfalutin but realistically speaking

02:02:02   these days I don't think it is I think

02:02:04   jag would just love to be included in

02:02:06   the same buying decision it's Lexus let

02:02:07   alone BMW Mercedes oh yeah they're

02:02:09   totally irrelevant but the other factor

02:02:11   is like I just don't want to hear

02:02:13   everyone

02:02:13   me how to pronounce it well then never

02:02:16   get a Porsche either I was about I was

02:02:19   thinking the same thing I said I'm like

02:02:20   you know yeah that would also apply to

02:02:21   that brand which I'm also not even try

02:02:23   to say here because I'm not gonna say it

02:02:24   right now I don't care

02:02:25   it's anyway I don't want a I don't want

02:02:29   a stinger but yeah I think you hit the

02:02:30   nail on the head Marco about part of the

02:02:33   reason why I'm bummed about BMW not

02:02:35   really revving my engine anymore is that

02:02:39   I haven't figured out what's replaced

02:02:41   replacing it like there's a part of me

02:02:44   that's enthusiastic about getting a

02:02:46   Wrangler and I'm not trying to open that

02:02:46   can of worms but I I don't know that

02:02:49   that's really gonna replace that love

02:02:50   because there was a stretch of time

02:02:52   that every time I got in my car I was

02:02:55   just thrilled and excited to be sitting

02:02:57   in that chair and now it's it's not an

02:03:00   appliance but it's closer to an

02:03:04   appliance than then something that gives

02:03:06   me pleasure and that's really

02:03:08   unfortunate and I don't think I don't

02:03:11   think I would view a Jeep in quite the

02:03:15   same way as I did the BMW circa 2013

02:03:17   that just bums me out like I wish I had

02:03:20   something to replace that that kind of

02:03:21   joy in my life and and and you know

02:03:25   maybe I will but not to maybe it'll be

02:03:27   your family

02:03:27   nah no what can replace this joy says

02:03:33   the person who just had a new child come

02:03:37   on I gotta make me sound like such a

02:03:39   jerk speaking of which like back in

02:03:41   build and analyze I forget like when in

02:03:44   the series it was but sometime during

02:03:45   build and analyze I was talking back

02:03:47   then about like you know possibly that

02:03:50   was when I was like waffling over like

02:03:51   what car to get and like after that

02:03:54   after the first BMW I was what think

02:03:56   about something fast and and Dan was

02:03:59   talking about how like he used to care

02:04:01   about fast cars and now he just got him

02:04:04   he just got minivans and he was totally

02:04:06   fun and he just kind of stopped caring

02:04:08   about driving fast that's a lie because

02:04:10   he eventually got like an Audi yeah

02:04:12   there was an Audi so but but like but

02:04:14   that's that like that sounded to me like

02:04:16   it like that would never happen to me I

02:04:18   could not fathom that that ever happened

02:04:21   to me I would always care you know as

02:04:22   much as I did then and I did care for a

02:04:25   while like I went through some nice

02:04:27   cars and my current car is fast but I I

02:04:31   really do feel myself carrying a lot

02:04:33   less over time like and like I'm not

02:04:35   really like you know like taking that

02:04:38   taking a little like a little turn

02:04:40   that's down at the bottom of my street

02:04:41   where I can kick it out a little bit

02:04:42   when there's leaves down like I don't do

02:04:44   that anymore like there's certain like

02:04:46   you know highway ramp so I could go

02:04:48   super fast before and I just kind of

02:04:50   don't do that anymore either like I have

02:04:51   even just like over the last like year

02:04:53   I've felt myself like really chilling

02:04:55   out a lot in that way where I like even

02:04:58   even who there I was thinking like maybe

02:05:00   on the next one I won't mind so much

02:05:02   that now I'm now forced to get the smart

02:05:04   air suspension which softens the ride

02:05:05   that can sound kind of nice like I

02:05:08   realize after I was thinking that I'm

02:05:09   like oh my god Who am I

02:05:10   but like you're Mercedes here we come

02:05:14   yeah but like but I realizing like like

02:05:17   you know my priorities have changed too

02:05:18   like if I was buying a new car today I

02:05:20   would still get a Tesla and I would

02:05:22   still get this the you know a fast model

02:05:24   but it's because I would want the the

02:05:27   biggest range which is which is not the

02:05:30   fastest model which is the decision I

02:05:33   made with this one and I would make the

02:05:35   exact same decision again like the speed

02:05:36   of it is way less important to me than

02:05:38   the range of it I like that it's fast I

02:05:40   have fun with the speed sometimes but

02:05:43   it's way less often that that's relevant

02:05:45   to me than it used to be and you know

02:05:47   for UKC like you know as we've mentioned

02:05:49   in the past like you know being a car

02:05:51   enthusiast is so much a part of your

02:05:53   identity that you know and it need not

02:05:55   be you know that's that's an option that

02:05:57   you have yeah but but you know you you

02:06:00   still you you have a lot of that love

02:06:02   and you and some degree you probably

02:06:04   always will but it's okay if if it comes

02:06:09   to this if you realize this in your you

02:06:11   know in introspection

02:06:13   it's okay for your priorities to change

02:06:16   or for like the the the significance

02:06:20   that you apply to certain factors to be

02:06:24   rearranged or to shift around and so

02:06:27   like it's like you know you said like

02:06:28   you know used to be you know you should

02:06:30   be really like you know thrilled getting

02:06:32   in your car and now it's more of a

02:06:33   function and part of that is because

02:06:35   you're you know you've had this car for

02:06:36   a while so it's no longer as novel part

02:06:38   of that is you kind of hate this car

02:06:40   because

02:06:40   cost you but you know par that's also

02:06:44   like you are growing up you know you

02:06:47   your your but what six seven years older

02:06:49   now them then when you growing up he's

02:06:52   in his mid-30s he's getting old you stop

02:06:54   growing up we're always growing up you

02:06:56   know you start getting older certain

02:06:59   morning I think you okay yeah we are

02:07:01   continuing to get old some of us older

02:07:03   the busy living or get busy dying

02:07:04   finally something you both get reference

02:07:07   technology whatever it is like you know

02:07:09   it's okay to change over time and to

02:07:12   recognize that's what's happening and I

02:07:14   agree with you the thing is I don't feel

02:07:17   like I'm that different I agree that I

02:07:20   am slightly different and the joy I get

02:07:22   from Aaron's car is indication to me

02:07:25   that I am feeling differently because

02:07:27   Aaron's car feels to me anyway very

02:07:31   cushy it has a lot of those techno bits

02:07:33   that like your car has not exactly the

02:07:35   same but like you know there's an app

02:07:37   where I can start it remotely and I know

02:07:39   you're like haha what's an engine but

02:07:40   you get what I'm driving at and and I

02:07:43   get a lot of pleasure from Aaron's car

02:07:45   despite the fact that it's big it's slow

02:07:48   it according to Jon tips over if you

02:07:51   steer more than you know five degrees

02:07:53   laterally but but it's in every way it's

02:07:57   wrong from the list of things that Casey

02:08:01   enjoys but I do like it and I think the

02:08:03   thing that that the crisis I'm having is

02:08:06   that I don't feel like I'm that

02:08:08   different like well all I really want in

02:08:10   the world is somebody that is not BMW to

02:08:14   make me either a 340 sedan or an m3 and

02:08:18   I don't think that really exists and

02:08:22   there was a report I'm not gonna be able

02:08:23   to find the link but a friend of mine

02:08:26   Brad sent me a report some rumors that

02:08:29   the 3-series is going to lose the stick

02:08:31   in the next generation which isn't

02:08:34   particularly surprising but is kind of

02:08:36   devastating and I know I need to just

02:08:38   wake up and smell reality that that the

02:08:39   three pedal cars are not long for this

02:08:41   world

02:08:42   but I feel like I'm being this is a lot

02:08:44   of words to say I feel like I'm being

02:08:45   abandoned and BMW is supposed to help me

02:08:48   and it sounds like they're abandoning me

02:08:51   and either way

02:08:53   grumpy about the fact that this cars

02:08:54   cost me a bazillion dollars so I I just

02:08:57   I feel like I'm a ronin right like I'm a

02:08:59   man without a master now and and that

02:09:01   bums me out because I want to be able to

02:09:03   to find a car that gives me that joy

02:09:06   again and you know the the Julia did

02:09:08   give me a lot of that joy and maybe I

02:09:11   would feel slightly differently about it

02:09:12   if there was literally no other options

02:09:15   like if there were no three pedal cars

02:09:17   but you know I mean like I feel like

02:09:19   I've been I've been left wanting in and

02:09:23   that that kind of bums me out cuz I feel

02:09:25   like I'm the same as I've always been

02:09:27   older and maybe wiser and certainly

02:09:30   slower but it's I at least older at

02:09:34   least older but but you know what I mean

02:09:36   like I just I feel like nothing is

02:09:37   filling that void even though I'm ready

02:09:39   for something to fill that void

02:09:39   for something to fill that void

01:00:00   if the first version has to be assembled

01:00:01   partially out of parts that come in the

01:00:03   industry that's fine but eventually we

01:00:06   like to bring that in-house because we

01:00:07   feel like we can do it better we know

01:00:08   exactly what we want for the watch we

01:00:09   know exactly what we want for our phones

01:00:11   I don't want to have to convince some

01:00:13   other company to make this product for

01:00:14   me and in fact we have some better ideas

01:00:16   about how it might be dump is behind all

01:00:18   the best people in this industry because

01:00:18   we have too much money right and that is

01:00:22   way more aggressive than just shopping

01:00:24   among like oh we're gonna use the Sony

01:00:26   panel in this display or we're gonna use

01:00:27   Tran Tran so the best CRTs and you know

01:00:29   like it's way more aggressive to say

01:00:31   we're gonna do it ourselves because it's

01:00:35   a competitive advantage not to have to

01:00:37   wait for the rest of the industry to do

01:00:38   anything and in the case of these

01:00:40   screens even if you're in a situation

01:00:42   where one company makes the best screens

01:00:44   and Apple wants the best screens and

01:00:46   they feel bad getting a one supplier I

01:00:47   think apples view on it aside from that

01:00:49   we just don't like giving money to

01:00:50   Samsung as a single suppliers to say we

01:00:53   think we can do that better because we

01:00:54   know exactly what we want and it's a

01:00:55   pain to have to tell Samsung exactly

01:00:57   what we want and get them to build the

01:00:58   thing that we want and go through all

01:00:59   that thing we know what we want why

01:01:02   don't we just do it ourselves and that's

01:01:06   what they've been doing with lots of

01:01:07   components if they have any problems

01:01:08   with any kind of supplier like Qualcomm

01:01:10   being annoying and about you know

01:01:12   charging them lots of money or them not

01:01:14   having lots of alternatives and trying

01:01:16   to get Intel to build radio chips and

01:01:17   stuff in a venture they say you know

01:01:18   what I'm tired of this we have good

01:01:20   engineers we know how to build things

01:01:22   why don't we build the radio chips and

01:01:23   not build so much as design and have

01:01:26   manufactured for us the last bastion of

01:01:29   that is manufacturing we're thus far

01:01:31   Apple has been happy to say

01:01:34   manufacturers compete amongst yourselves

01:01:36   and we will give you CPU fab our design

01:01:39   that you will fab for us and we will

01:01:41   give you manufacturing thing our case

01:01:44   design that you will machine that of

01:01:45   aluminum for us and we will help you buy

01:01:47   the machines for it and we'll help you

01:01:48   work on the techniques to use those

01:01:49   machines and we'll do all this stuff but

01:01:51   in the end Apple doesn't own the

01:01:53   factories Apple does not own a silicon

01:01:55   CPU fab it still allows other companies

01:01:58   to do that for it so it hasn't gotten to

01:02:00   the point where we say you know what I'm

01:02:01   tired of waiting for you know Taiwan

01:02:03   Semiconductor to come up with a new fab

01:02:05   let's make our own fab because that

01:02:06   starts to get you know a couple billion

01:02:07   here capability in there so you're

01:02:08   talking real money so so far they've

01:02:10   been avoiding that but

01:02:12   the modern Apple I think is more

01:02:15   aggressive than any other Apple has been

01:02:16   in their drive to get a real competitive

01:02:21   edge in the market by saying we'll do it

01:02:26   ourselves and having the confidence that

01:02:28   they'll be able to be able to do it

01:02:29   better than anyone else which is

01:02:30   exciting from a technology perspective

01:02:32   to see you know that's what we always

01:02:35   want Apple to although it may seem

01:02:37   exciting when Apple is able to

01:02:38   synthesize from the parts that are

01:02:40   available to almost anybody or most

01:02:42   people you know plus or minus one or two

01:02:43   parts to make a great product at it it's

01:02:45   even more exciting I guess in the iPhone

01:02:48   age to see them make phones that are

01:02:50   just leaps and bounds better in certain

01:02:53   areas than other phones for reasons that

01:02:57   are directly traceable to Apple strategy

01:02:59   to say bring the system out of chips in

01:03:01   house that's why their system on chips

01:03:03   are so much better than everybody else's

01:03:04   if they were still sitting around they

01:03:05   were using the same chips as Android

01:03:07   phones though the I think the phone

01:03:10   landscape would look very different

01:03:11   Apple wouldn't be able to do half the

01:03:12   things that it does because it would be

01:03:14   working with CPUs that are not now I'm

01:03:16   gonna say that are worse or slower which

01:03:18   I'm in case they are but that simply are

01:03:19   not tailored to the set of features that

01:03:21   Apple wants it picks the exact number of

01:03:23   cores the exact number of amount of

01:03:25   cache right the the you know the exact

01:03:28   layout so they can put all their

01:03:29   different you know they know exactly

01:03:30   what they want for like the iPhone tend

01:03:32   to do face ID if they had to adapt some

01:03:34   weird you know Snapdragon processor that

01:03:36   has way more cores and they want but not

01:03:38   enough of something else that they want

01:03:39   we'd still be waiting for for a face ID

01:03:42   so I don't know I know I'm going with

01:03:44   this except to say that I think that

01:03:46   this aspect of Apple the technological

01:03:49   aggression is actually I think one of

01:03:52   the most interesting aspects of the

01:03:53   company today and probably

01:03:54   underappreciated by you know by anybody

01:03:58   who doesn't fall Apple really closely

01:03:59   doesn't really care what's in their

01:04:00   products but I find it exciting

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01:05:40   show all right let's move on to ask ATP

01:05:46   Simon edge Singh says hey what's the

01:05:50   deal with the bits that were once used

01:05:52   as an important spec for gaming consoles

01:05:54   how many bits does a modern console have

01:05:56   and why's it no longer used in marketing

01:05:57   and so as soon as I read this I thought

01:05:59   back to the days of the Nintendo 64

01:06:01   which everyone knew was 64-bit because

01:06:04   it was right there in the name and oh

01:06:05   man was that thing way cooler than any

01:06:08   other modern console or so I thought

01:06:10   when I was 10 or whatever so John is the

01:06:13   chief gamer of the three of us can you

01:06:16   explain to me what's the deal with these

01:06:17   bits and why are they no longer used in

01:06:19   marketing well marketing has moved

01:06:20   entirely on to blast proccesing as a all

01:06:25   right so the bits thing like first I

01:06:28   read this question I'm like is that a

01:06:30   thing that people really wonder about

01:06:31   like our consoles still marketed with

01:06:34   bits and I think the person who's asking

01:06:36   this must have lived through the era

01:06:37   when that was

01:06:38   these days I haven't seen like the the

01:06:41   ps3 or ps4 are you the ps2 for that

01:06:43   matter marketing with bits like its it's

01:06:45   a thing that is that has passed us by

01:06:46   for for good reasons but back when it

01:06:50   was used as the marketing turn ascribing

01:06:54   a number of bits to a CPU like oh this

01:06:57   is a 16-bit CPU this is 32-bit CPU this

01:06:59   is a 64-bit CPU there's no hard and fast

01:07:02   rules as with most things and

01:07:04   marketing's and when you can say

01:07:05   something like that but in general the

01:07:07   number of bits tended to be applicable

01:07:11   because certain things have the same

01:07:14   number of bits so the you know the

01:07:17   integer registers the place where you

01:07:20   store a number would have 16 bits and

01:07:22   the address but bus would be 16 bits

01:07:25   wide which they controlled how much RAM

01:07:27   you could address and you'd call that

01:07:29   processor a 16 bit processor didn't have

01:07:32   to be the case for example there are

01:07:35   many quote-unquote 32-bit processors

01:07:38   that shipped with hardware wise

01:07:41   physically speaking a 24 bit memory bus

01:07:43   and thinking of the original Macintosh

01:07:45   and many after that you'd still call it

01:07:47   a 32 bit processor though because the

01:07:49   integer registers for 32 bits wide and

01:07:51   even on a quote-unquote 32 bit processor

01:07:53   the floating-point registers might have

01:07:55   been 64 bits wide why is that not a 64

01:07:57   bit processor and what if the memory bus

01:07:59   is wider than the integers and what if

01:08:00   the integer is wider than the memory bus

01:08:01   and like so there is no hard and fast

01:08:03   rule but in general because usually

01:08:05   either the memory bus or the integer

01:08:07   register width or both were on this

01:08:09   number and because there was a

01:08:11   progression because it's more expensive

01:08:12   especially in the early days to make

01:08:14   wider buses to make larger registers

01:08:17   right that each leap like now we can

01:08:21   make the registers 32 bits each leap was

01:08:23   met with a marketing push to say you

01:08:25   know the 386 is the 32-bit processor and

01:08:28   importantly in terms of representable

01:08:31   numbers for integers 64-bit integers and

01:08:34   way before you want them to like 65535

01:08:38   right 32-bit integers ended a pretty

01:08:40   high number that you feel like I can do

01:08:42   a lot more with four billion oh yeah

01:08:44   there's a lot more things I can count

01:08:45   with precision from you know with the

01:08:49   four billion

01:08:50   item so I can count where's 65,000 I can

01:08:54   think of lots of scenarios where I might

01:08:55   need to bend I'm bigger than that so

01:08:58   once we cross 32 bits we're and same

01:09:00   thing for memory addressing although in

01:09:02   the beginning there was no computer no

01:09:04   personal computer could fill up all the

01:09:06   third qubits that memory bus so

01:09:07   eventually we got there once you cross

01:09:10   32 you have a lot more Headroom so 8-bit

01:09:12   and 16-bit it's like lots of problems

01:09:14   where this is annoying and flowing port

01:09:16   doesn't help you entirely because of

01:09:17   precision and all that stuff

01:09:18   32 bits so I can run this for a while

01:09:20   and we did we ran on quote-unquote

01:09:22   32-bit processors for a long time till

01:09:24   we eventually got to the point where you

01:09:27   could fill a PC with more RAM that could

01:09:29   be addressed with 32 bits and then we

01:09:30   needed to go to 64 but that took a

01:09:31   really long time now our phones are

01:09:33   freaking 64-bit which is amazing if you

01:09:35   live for the era where you had to

01:09:36   progress you're 16 and 32 and so on and

01:09:38   so forth game consoles same deal their

01:09:40   computers they have memory buses usually

01:09:42   they use cheaper stuff because they cost

01:09:44   less money than a PC so when pcs were

01:09:46   using 32-bit processors game consoles

01:09:48   maybe a eight or 16-bit processors just

01:09:50   because they had to cost so much less

01:09:52   money and it costs less money to make

01:09:53   you know smaller chips in surface area

01:09:57   and the more lanes you have for your

01:09:59   address buses everywhere and though the

01:10:01   wider your interest registers and all

01:10:02   that of stuff the bigger there so once

01:10:06   consoles like so 16-bit was turbo

01:10:08   graphics Christine SNES Genesis Sega

01:10:14   Master System was 8-bit right yeah

01:10:16   anyway you can look on Wikipedia what

01:10:18   the bits were but so there was there was

01:10:20   eight bit gaming consoles two 16-bit

01:10:22   once we got to 32 around the era

01:10:24   surprisingly of the Nintendo 64 we got

01:10:26   the 32 PlayStation was 32 entender 64

01:10:31   was arguably not as 64 e as they made it

01:10:34   out to be okay why do you say that I

01:10:38   don't think every like it didn't I have

01:10:40   to look up him what computer but I don't

01:10:42   I don't think the the memory bus and

01:10:43   he's more for example or 64 bits what

01:10:45   yeah I think you're right there were

01:10:46   like parts of it that were 64 bit but

01:10:48   not like it was arguable because like

01:10:50   because why would you make the memory

01:10:51   about 64 bits why I have no idea I'm

01:10:53   just pulling this off the top of my head

01:10:55   but seriously there's no way in hell the

01:10:56   physically speaking they have a 64-bit

01:10:58   memory bus and something that had like 2

01:11:00   megabytes of RAM like it doesn't make

01:11:01   any sense right you need 4 gigs to

01:11:04   see the addressability of 32 minutes and

01:11:06   if they did it must have only been

01:11:08   because they were using an existing part

01:11:09   but it just doesn't seem like they would

01:11:11   do it's the same reason they had 24-bit

01:11:13   memory bus on the Macintosh because

01:11:15   first of all you're never going to

01:11:16   address like 32 4 gigabytes of RAM

01:11:19   gigabytes you can't you can't have four

01:11:22   gigabit you know the Mac guys had 128

01:11:24   kilobytes of RAM oh yeah even a 24-bit

01:11:26   Mary bus preserve so you save money

01:11:28   because you have less you know what less

01:11:31   room on the chip less traces on your

01:11:33   board blah blah so I'm assuming that it

01:11:35   wasn't but if there's any part of it is

01:11:36   64-bit you can call it 64-bit okay so a

01:11:39   little bit of digging as you were

01:11:41   talking the are 4200 has a 30 20 trans

01:11:45   translation lookaside buffer table the

01:11:47   system bus the 64 bits wide and operates

01:11:49   at half the internal clock frequency

01:11:51   however the are 4300 I which is what I

01:11:54   believe was in the n64 is a derivative

01:11:56   of that blah blah blah blah blah and a

01:11:59   cut-down 32-bit system bus for reduced

01:12:01   cost yeah but in marketing for mark

01:12:05   needs and by the way like I said lots of

01:12:07   times in 32-bit processors the like I

01:12:10   know but x86 indexes have a 8080 bit

01:12:13   wide floating-point registers doesn't

01:12:14   like that I don't remember something I

01:12:15   just had to learn how to decode that

01:12:17   format yeah but no one ever said it's an

01:12:20   80 bit processor just because of

01:12:22   convention they just kind of say oh the

01:12:24   memory bus and the engine registers

01:12:26   that's kind of what we call the

01:12:27   processor right that's why it that's why

01:12:29   they're marketing terms because 16-bit

01:12:31   and 32-bit it might you might think it

01:12:35   means something but unless you know

01:12:36   exactly what it means it doesn't you

01:12:39   know never mind that like the width of

01:12:40   the memory bus and the size of integer

01:12:42   registers really says nothing about how

01:12:43   fast the thing processes stuff like and

01:12:46   you know anyway gating speed is hard but

01:12:49   there was a clear progression with

01:12:50   number of bits up to about the 32-bit

01:12:53   point where we hung out for a long time

01:12:54   and now that we've gone to 64-bit where

01:12:57   we really are 64 bits you know even 64

01:13:00   memory bus I don't think we're at full

01:13:01   64 what does worth like the Zeon's have

01:13:03   they probably have like 48 bit yeah

01:13:05   because there was that there was that

01:13:06   PAE thing for awhile where I like to

01:13:09   address more than I think 16 gigs there

01:13:12   was something like that we're like even

01:13:13   even the Intel even when Intel went

01:13:15   64-bit

01:13:16   you couldn't address 64 bits

01:13:18   worth of memory without certain tricks

01:13:19   here and there and I I think that has

01:13:21   since been lifted to a pretty high level

01:13:24   but but but probably out of full 64 like

01:13:26   I I know that you can buy servers with

01:13:30   like 200 gigs of RAM in them right but

01:13:33   you can't buy servers with however much

01:13:35   RAM fits in 64 bits which is some

01:13:37   astronomical man right yeah

01:13:39   Zeta bytes or whatever the hell it is so

01:13:42   we're still saving money in that regard

01:13:44   but 64-bit integer registers are gonna

01:13:47   run us a good long while and I don't

01:13:49   really seem any anything going to

01:13:51   personal there's no need for a 128-bit

01:13:54   memory bus because we can't even

01:13:55   physically put 64 bits of memory like to

01:13:57   fill that whole address space and

01:14:00   128-bit integers aren't really getting

01:14:02   you that much more of problems that you

01:14:05   can deal with in 64-bit registers

01:14:07   floating-point registers are even wider

01:14:09   than they've ever been now - and on GPUs

01:14:11   and in sort of the you know media

01:14:13   streaming sim D instruction sets those

01:14:16   could actually stand to go a little bit

01:14:18   wider just to be able to process more

01:14:19   values at once because a lot of times

01:14:21   they're using like where they call half

01:14:23   precision values for games and stuff

01:14:25   where you don't need so they'll use

01:14:26   they'll still use 16-bit stuff just to

01:14:27   pack more into process martin lunch so

01:14:29   there's probably Headroom for those two

01:14:31   all cranked up to 32 and 64-bit to you

01:14:33   know or or could use floating-point

01:14:35   everywhere for everything so there's

01:14:36   some headroom there but no one brags

01:14:38   about GPUs in terms of number bits

01:14:39   either because it doesn't make any sense

01:14:40   and that's just not how they're marketed

01:14:42   so this is a very long-winded

01:14:45   explanation that gets into more

01:14:47   everything you probably cared about but

01:14:49   I think that's that's part of the thing

01:14:50   that this was entirely a marketing thing

01:14:53   that latched on to a real thing that

01:14:55   happened in the progression of certain

01:14:57   the width of certain aspects of CPU

01:14:59   design in the 70s 80s and 90s that has

01:15:03   leveled off because there's no longer

01:15:06   any obvious benefit to widening these

01:15:08   things at an accelerated rate again

01:15:10   setting aside GPUs which there is some

01:15:12   benefit to continuing to wide and stuff

01:15:13   there and they will continue to be one

01:15:14   but GPUs are and marketed in that way so

01:15:16   marketing is weird I would also say like

01:15:19   you know date like back in you know

01:15:21   we're like we grew up in the well Casey

01:15:23   and I grew up in these days John was

01:15:24   already infected but but you know we're

01:15:27   over the time we're like you know like

01:15:29   like we we both really saw like the the

01:15:32   two 16-bit two 32-bit generations and

01:15:35   you know 8-bit systems like they didn't

01:15:37   market themselves as 8-bit it was the

01:15:38   you know the NES versus the Sega Master

01:15:40   System

01:15:41   you know vast majority dominated by the

01:15:43   NES and then the Sega Genesis Mass you

01:15:46   know was very heavily marketed when it

01:15:48   came out of 16-bit because it was like

01:15:49   this is twice as good like that was

01:15:51   really like when the marketing I think

01:15:52   was a peak like oh my god this is 16-bit

01:15:54   and then the Super Nintendo came out and

01:15:56   that was you know well marketed to be

01:15:57   16-bit as well not as heavily as the

01:15:59   Genesis though and then you know we went

01:16:03   32-bit with the PlayStation 1 the Sega

01:16:05   Saturn and then the generations kind of

01:16:08   started being staggered like the n64

01:16:10   came out there was a gap between the

01:16:13   32-bit generation and the n64 so it

01:16:16   started becoming like oh look since

01:16:17   there's a gap and the n64 was in many

01:16:19   ways significantly better than the

01:16:21   Saturn on the PlayStation 1 then it was

01:16:23   like this is they were they were kind of

01:16:25   trying to say this is the next

01:16:26   generation even though it was kind of

01:16:28   like a half generational step and like

01:16:31   the generations were no longer in sync

01:16:32   and then that continued in the future

01:16:35   generations like Sega went kind of you

01:16:38   know middle of generation with the

01:16:39   Dreamcast

01:16:40   then the ps2 came out really early and

01:16:42   then the Xbox happened like a little bit

01:16:45   later so like the generation started to

01:16:47   become more staggered and it wasn't all

01:16:50   like okay these are the two systems of

01:16:51   this one then these are the two systems

01:16:53   for this one and then of course this

01:16:55   correspondent with us what John was

01:16:56   saying highlight the bits kind of

01:16:57   stopped growing and stopped mattering

01:16:59   the number of bits has so little bearing

01:17:01   on modern performance like computers

01:17:04   back then especially the kind of

01:17:05   computers that were in game consoles

01:17:07   were really simple I think once we've

01:17:10   got to the era of having many different

01:17:13   processors being involved and having

01:17:16   them all be pretty complex and then

01:17:18   having things like vector instructions

01:17:20   which you know take the street like you

01:17:22   know you mentioned Cindy and then you

01:17:24   have GPUs coming and you have the GPU

01:17:26   revolution that's happened like over the

01:17:27   last you know you know decade or so

01:17:29   we're like GPUs have gotten so

01:17:31   incredible and so much of computing is

01:17:33   moving to the GPU and that's where so

01:17:36   much of the action is happening and

01:17:37   they're the bits you know are completely

01:17:40   different than the CPU but you know it's

01:17:42   it's you know a lot of things don't work

01:17:44   the same way or don't matter the same

01:17:45   so I think most of the reason we've

01:17:48   moved past the bits thing is that you

01:17:52   like like you know like Simon asks like

01:17:53   how many bits does a modern console have

01:17:55   you kind of can't say guys like well how

01:17:58   many how many bits in what part do the

01:18:00   integer registers of the CPU or the

01:18:03   address bus even matter to modern

01:18:05   performance or is it like for a game

01:18:08   console you're probably looking more

01:18:09   more at the GPU than anything else how

01:18:11   many bits wide is the GPU you know in

01:18:14   various like buses and thing like that

01:18:15   like that might matter but even that's

01:18:18   hard to compare between different

01:18:19   architectures and different generations

01:18:20   and everything else like it's just

01:18:22   everything is so much more advanced now

01:18:24   that it's way more complicated there

01:18:27   really is no single number you can say

01:18:29   all right this is a you know 128-bit

01:18:31   system like you really can't say that

01:18:33   anymore and it's not really a relevant

01:18:34   question to even ask they do have the

01:18:36   numbers that they say though like to

01:18:38   that end manufacturers do throw numbers

01:18:41   at you but the numbers are no longer

01:18:42   about width in most cases although like

01:18:45   I said I think they probably will go

01:18:46   back to with once they start once the

01:18:48   GPU precision starts going up and that

01:18:51   starts mattering more in-game so for now

01:18:52   they don't say that but what they do

01:18:53   tell you is they tell you flops

01:18:57   floating-point operations per second

01:18:59   from the GPU because that's kind of how

01:19:01   they just do this sort of you know my

01:19:04   GPU is bigger than your GPU like the

01:19:06   architecture is so complicated that no

01:19:07   one can comprehend it right no regular

01:19:09   people comprehend it but and it's very

01:19:10   regular and repeated in those maybe

01:19:12   they'll tell you the number of execution

01:19:14   units just something a number of engines

01:19:15   or a number of building blocks but

01:19:16   really want you want to know is

01:19:17   floating-point operations per second

01:19:19   that's just a big aggregate number that

01:19:20   doesn't really have any bearing piece

01:19:22   you're never actually maxing it out well

01:19:24   maybe if you're really good game

01:19:25   developer you might be maxing out for

01:19:26   some period of time they'll tell you

01:19:28   memory bandwidth which is important for

01:19:30   how you can shuffle information to and

01:19:33   from your big pool of RAM and to and

01:19:36   from the CPU and the GPU and those

01:19:39   numbers I think have way more bearing on

01:19:41   performance than any kind of width

01:19:43   because at least they tell you like I

01:19:44   can process this many things in this

01:19:46   amount of times that I can ship this

01:19:47   many things from A to B and these days

01:19:50   that's what people are measuring

01:19:52   consoles are and then maybe clock speeds

01:19:54   they'll throw in there but really that's

01:19:55   not so much they don't do even do that

01:19:56   much CPU measuring if there's lots of

01:19:58   ways you could measure CP

01:19:59   but they don't even really compare those

01:20:00   because they know that for the most part

01:20:02   especially as we've gone to HD and now

01:20:05   4k the GPU is very often the limiting

01:20:07   factor so they throw they throw that

01:20:09   stuff around so there's always some

01:20:11   number that come up with a marketing

01:20:13   team to to let people measure their

01:20:17   consoles against the let people's

01:20:18   consoles but it hasn't been bits for a

01:20:21   while and and speaking on the bits thing

01:20:23   like and I don't know if this was clear

01:20:25   but like the reason the reason it

01:20:27   mattered so much back when we were gone

01:20:28   to 8 to 16 and 60 and 32 is not just

01:20:32   like the count ability of things of

01:20:35   saying 65 K is not quite enough I think

01:20:37   the the the thing that brings it home is

01:20:40   a link that I couldn't find out it tried

01:20:41   to Google for it maybe it wouldn't be

01:20:42   more successful is to think about what

01:20:44   it would be like to build a game on a

01:20:48   device that had 8-bit integer registers

01:20:52   and no floating-point so you get you get

01:20:56   0 to 255 and you have to make a game

01:21:00   like that's all you have you can add

01:21:02   subtract divide you can do whatever you

01:21:04   want with those numbers right but

01:21:06   there's no floating point and you can

01:21:08   never have a number bigger than 255 and

01:21:09   you can ever number smaller than 0 and

01:21:11   if you want to do negatives you can you

01:21:12   know reserved a bit for sign and have

01:21:14   your range right and that's I'm if my

01:21:17   memory serves me correctly that is not

01:21:18   just a hypothetical exercise that's the

01:21:20   original Gameboy and if you think of the

01:21:22   some of the games that are arranged in

01:21:23   the middle of Gameboy like say you're

01:21:25   making a side scroller how do you keep

01:21:27   track of where they are on the thing or

01:21:28   say you're doing a top view Legend of

01:21:29   Zelda where are they on the map how many

01:21:32   inventory items do they have like try

01:21:33   making a game where you can only count

01:21:35   from 0 to 255

01:21:36   it's really hard you have to be very

01:21:38   clever and never mind that oh by the way

01:21:40   that's also the thing that's figuring

01:21:41   out how to draw the screen and what

01:21:42   palettes to go from and had to define

01:21:44   sprites and do stuff like that that's

01:21:47   why the bits mattered so much because

01:21:49   when you went from 8-bit 16-bit suddenly

01:21:52   you had enough numbers for counting that

01:21:56   you could define bigger color look-up

01:21:58   tables and you could make bigger sprites

01:22:00   and ship them around and count to higher

01:22:02   numbers to make bigger maps and yes of

01:22:05   course is the audio processing as you

01:22:06   know higher bitrate for audio and stuff

01:22:08   like that you would see the result of

01:22:11   those bits on the screen

01:22:12   the clock speed you don't even care what

01:22:15   that was you're just like now I can

01:22:16   count the higher numbers now I can keep

01:22:18   track of more colors and more things on

01:22:19   the screen because I have you know that

01:22:22   there's literally you can count the

01:22:24   higher number it makes a big difference

01:22:25   especially when you don't have

01:22:26   floating-point to approximate those

01:22:27   things and so the leap from 8 16 to 32

01:22:32   were huge partially because of the

01:22:35   bidness just because you were so starved

01:22:39   you were so starved for the ability to

01:22:41   just count and do basic math and keep

01:22:44   track of things in the limited

01:22:45   architecture but once you can count to 4

01:22:47   billion you're probably ok with the

01:22:50   counting thing you're probably ok with

01:22:52   the number of colors you got all that

01:22:54   stuff covered and by the way you have

01:22:55   floating-point some of the point along

01:22:57   and like floating point comes in so if

01:22:58   you really need to do something you can

01:22:59   do floating point and so that's why you

01:23:02   don't have rehab it's anymore but I

01:23:04   think bits were actually super important

01:23:06   like Margot said 16-bit was a change you

01:23:08   could see so much more than you could

01:23:10   see that you know a difference in ps3

01:23:12   and ps4 8-bit 16-bit was just like it

01:23:16   was bigger than retina it was no one is

01:23:18   confused about it and they asked gamer s

01:23:20   any asked and nobody is confused it was

01:23:22   such a big difference that's kids these

01:23:24   days closest thing they have is

01:23:27   appreciating how much faster new iPhones

01:23:28   are than previous ones because they're

01:23:29   still getting faster pretty fast but

01:23:31   there is no technological equivalent to

01:23:34   8 16 32 bit console progression for

01:23:38   people growing up today so far maybe

01:23:40   when they get into the holographic

01:23:41   things they're biologic or modification

01:23:43   it will have even bigger changes but for

01:23:45   now you just listen to stories from old

01:23:47   people what I would say to like I think

01:23:49   one of the biggest reasons why we stop

01:23:51   talking about bits is that even the

01:23:54   whole concept of having these like

01:23:55   console measuring contests just like

01:23:59   fell out of relevance because consoles

01:24:02   are all so powerful now I don't know

01:24:04   anybody who I mean maybe except John who

01:24:07   would make a console buying decision

01:24:10   based on hardware specs

01:24:12   you're you're just down the ride forums

01:24:15   that's the console war still exists oh I

01:24:17   mean I'm sure I'm sure those people will

01:24:19   always talk about it but like I think

01:24:22   it's definitely not in the mass market

01:24:24   if it ever was even like

01:24:26   you don't buy a new consult today

01:24:28   because of how many mega flops or

01:24:30   teraflops or whatever the unit is today

01:24:32   like you don't buy a console today based

01:24:35   on that like you know if you're deciding

01:24:36   between the you know the xbox of the of

01:24:39   the day and the PlayStation of the day

01:24:41   and the switch of the day that decision

01:24:43   is going to be made based on things like

01:24:44   games like like titles that are

01:24:47   available for the system's it's gonna be

01:24:49   based on things like media features

01:24:51   heart like output features like doesn't

01:24:53   support 4k or not you know VR potential

01:24:57   you know add-on potentially that's gonna

01:24:59   be the kind of thing that most people

01:25:01   buy their consoles based on these days

01:25:02   the hardware is so good now it's you

01:25:05   know it's the the the gains that are

01:25:07   occurring in the hardware are oftentimes

01:25:10   not very relevant in like numeric terms

01:25:14   compared to other attributes of the

01:25:16   system that aren't necessarily its raw

01:25:18   performance so my dad as I've mentioned

01:25:21   in the past on this show worked for IBM

01:25:23   for almost my entire life and I remember

01:25:27   that he was so excited about the cel

01:25:31   processor in the PlayStation 3 and was

01:25:33   talking to me constantly about it I

01:25:35   don't know how much of that was just

01:25:36   because he was an IBM ER and it was an

01:25:38   IBM processor or at least in part anyway

01:25:40   I don't know how much that was like

01:25:42   regular people marketing or how much of

01:25:45   that was just IBM patting themselves on

01:25:47   the back but and John I'm kind of

01:25:48   looking to you to clarify but I heard

01:25:50   about this Cell processor constantly in

01:25:52   about OKC did you hear what they're

01:25:53   doing to sell now oh and they're doing

01:25:55   this for you know scientific computing

01:25:56   oh they're doing this for some other

01:25:58   thing you know it's not just about the

01:25:59   Playstations it's gonna revolutionize

01:26:00   the way computers are built which sort

01:26:03   of kind of was sort of kind of wasn't

01:26:04   but anyway did did that marketing ever

01:26:06   really happen or was that just being the

01:26:08   child of an IBM er it it did and like I

01:26:11   said there part of the reason you don't

01:26:14   see as much of that these days it's just

01:26:15   because the consoles became so similar

01:26:17   because the the ability to create the

01:26:21   stuff that goes into consoles started to

01:26:23   go so far outside the realm of console

01:26:25   developers ability they could they

01:26:27   couldn't even like outsource it and say

01:26:28   we want you to build you a CPU like this

01:26:30   just because it cost so much money and

01:26:32   so they started to have to pool their

01:26:36   resources and it would be like Nvidia's

01:26:38   as well we

01:26:39   got a lot of GPUs and we can customize

01:26:41   one of our GPUs for your thing but we're

01:26:44   not gonna build you a fresh GPU from

01:26:46   scratch just for your thing we can

01:26:47   cobble together something out of like

01:26:49   leftover bits of the last generation of

01:26:51   our desktop parts site and there's no

01:26:53   way you Nintendo or Microsoft or Sony

01:26:56   are gonna design here on CPU from

01:26:57   scratch like forget it so how about

01:27:00   everybody just uses PowerPC cpus of a

01:27:03   couple of different variants and AMD ATI

01:27:06   GPUs and so we have whole generation of

01:27:07   consoles with PowerPC TV CPUs cobbled

01:27:10   together from cores that were used in

01:27:12   like Mac's slightly modified and ATI at

01:27:17   that time GPUs and in this generation

01:27:19   you've got x86 CPUs from AMD they're in

01:27:21   the PlayStation and the Xbox that use

01:27:23   that and GPUs from AMD also very similar

01:27:29   very off-the-shelf parts so what are you

01:27:31   gonna brag about right and so the sell

01:27:33   was different the sell was probably the

01:27:36   last the last gasp of we want a

01:27:42   radically different thing that is not

01:27:45   just a bunch of PowerPC your x86 CPU

01:27:47   core store and although there were

01:27:48   PowerPC cores in there because you can't

01:27:50   do everything from scratch but it's

01:27:53   gonna be really weird really different

01:27:55   really exotic and have lots of

01:27:56   interesting ideas in it and to make that

01:28:00   happen they had to convince IBM or IBM

01:28:03   had to convince itself that like your

01:28:05   dad said it's not just about the

01:28:06   PlayStation there's gonna be lots of

01:28:08   applications for the sale and we user of

01:28:09   this and we can use with that to justify

01:28:11   the massive investment they put in

01:28:12   partnership with all these other people

01:28:14   to make this thing and they did reuse

01:28:15   PowerPC cores for certains for the like

01:28:18   the effort where they call it the PPEs

01:28:21   right both for the SPU's they made these

01:28:23   other little cores and they made this

01:28:24   ring bus and everything and it was a

01:28:26   really cool really interesting cpu

01:28:29   architecture like go read the articles

01:28:32   about the cell it is it is novel and

01:28:34   interesting and has lots of ideas from

01:28:36   like supercomputing and other things in

01:28:38   a small package totally a technological

01:28:41   feat so your dad was right to be excited

01:28:42   about it but to Marco's point you know

01:28:49   people don't care about that

01:28:51   they just care about the games

01:28:52   to your point Casey Sony did market the

01:28:55   exoticness of the cell as much as they

01:28:56   could they were all about the cell is

01:28:59   different than other people's things and

01:29:00   it was different

01:29:01   Sony's pitch was it's different in a way

01:29:03   that will make you have amazing things

01:29:04   in reality it was different in a way

01:29:06   that will make it very difficult to

01:29:07   write dev tools that work to it because

01:29:10   it doesn't work like any other game

01:29:11   console and it was very difficult to

01:29:13   write a program that efficiently used

01:29:15   all those resources because it was

01:29:17   honestly not quite a good balance in

01:29:20   resources you really had to figure out

01:29:22   how to orchestrate them just so you were

01:29:23   using them all to their maximum extent

01:29:25   and not leaving any idle and it was just

01:29:26   it took years and years for the best

01:29:29   developers game developers in the world

01:29:30   to figure out how to ring all the

01:29:31   performance out of the cell by the time

01:29:33   the Last of Us came out it's like wow

01:29:35   ps3 is pretty powerful gonna do some

01:29:37   pretty amazing stuff but it's still kind

01:29:39   of unbalanced and the whole system is

01:29:40   kind of RAM starved and I wish it had

01:29:42   more of this and a little bit of that

01:29:43   and it's the you know this is the case

01:29:46   you must love this because the current

01:29:48   generation of consoles and you know for

01:29:50   a while now it's been the American

01:29:51   approach of there's no substitute for

01:29:53   cubic inches you know you can give it a

01:29:56   ton of RAM give it a big powerful x86

01:30:00   CPU and like a cut-down desktop GPU done

01:30:03   and done no exotic architecture needed

01:30:05   solve the problem by throwing by

01:30:07   throwing this placement that's what

01:30:08   they're throwing it right and it's easy

01:30:10   to develop for it because it's kind of

01:30:11   the same you know PC game console

01:30:16   whatever you can x86 CPU GPU that you

01:30:19   familiar with 3d api's that you're

01:30:21   familiar with amateur toolchain and

01:30:23   everything that's what people want and

01:30:24   that's what they have so the sell

01:30:26   approach was technologically really cool

01:30:28   and interesting and they did market the

01:30:30   really cool interesting part of it but

01:30:32   it ended up making a console that didn't

01:30:35   produce the results in terms of cool fun

01:30:38   novel games that Sony wanted it to and

01:30:40   so everybody learned the lesson of that

01:30:42   including Sony and the ps4 was like a

01:30:43   giant apology about the ps3 the ps4

01:30:46   fixed everything that was wrong with the

01:30:48   ps3 it was so conventional so

01:30:50   straightforward had so much friggin RAM

01:30:51   was so simple to develop for that's why

01:30:54   the ps3 did so much better than the ps4

01:30:57   did so much better than the ps3 that

01:31:00   went on longer than expected but that

01:31:01   was that was awesome so thank you John

01:31:03   for telling us a bottle of sk√•ne

01:31:04   consoles they're great

01:31:06   I won't argue with you but I've been

01:31:08   really liking my switch lately as I keep

01:31:10   bringing up over and over again that

01:31:11   uses an off-the-shelf NVIDIA Tegra x1

01:31:13   because Nintendo can't even afford to

01:31:16   have people make mildly custom things

01:31:17   for them

01:31:18   really I love the switch I'm so it is

01:31:21   the system I and and you know it is

01:31:24   assume that I've been happiest with you

01:31:26   know it's basically since my Genesis

01:31:27   like that's I have not had a game system

01:31:29   since my Genesis that I was dis happy

01:31:32   with and it has almost nothing to do

01:31:34   with the processor or the GPU I have no

01:31:37   idea what it has in it I I didn't look

01:31:39   at that when getting it I haven't

01:31:41   thought to look at that since I have no

01:31:43   idea how it compares to the Xbox 17 or

01:31:47   whatever the hell Xbox is the current

01:31:48   Xbox way less powerful that's how I

01:31:51   could probably but it doesn't matter at

01:31:53   all like it just doesn't because what

01:31:55   matters is the games and the games are

01:31:56   awesome like that's that that to me is

01:31:59   so much more important than any of the

01:32:01   specs and like I'm just I'm incredibly

01:32:04   happy with my game console and I have no

01:32:06   idea what's in it so it does matter in

01:32:10   that if it was really difficult to

01:32:11   develop for the switch it would take

01:32:13   longer to make games that are up to the

01:32:16   standards that you're currently playing

01:32:17   them right and if there were fewer games

01:32:20   because not as many developers would be

01:32:22   able to to you know so like there is

01:32:24   there are aspects of a technology that

01:32:26   impact like how do we end up with good

01:32:28   games you need to have a minimum

01:32:30   baseline of like oh I can develop games

01:32:32   to this and it's not too weird and I can

01:32:34   develop them efficiently with skills I

01:32:36   already have without encountering too

01:32:38   many bugs without having to learn an

01:32:40   entirely new custom dev environment and

01:32:43   3d API and toolchain and everything like

01:32:46   that's a part of the technology

01:32:48   selection that does impact the part that

01:32:49   you care about I would also argue that

01:32:51   the power of the system also influences

01:32:54   what you care about but it's clear that

01:32:55   the switch is a compromise between a

01:32:58   plugged into the wall TV connected

01:33:00   console and a portable one so they made

01:33:03   they have to make compromises in power

01:33:05   and it is less powerful and I think that

01:33:07   decrease in power gives you the huge

01:33:10   benefits of portability which according

01:33:11   to defend those surveys that they're

01:33:12   running tons of people use this in

01:33:14   portable mode so they made the right

01:33:15   choice there but the downside is that

01:33:18   games that are possible on the ps4 and

01:33:22   Xbox one X and especially the Xbox one X

01:33:25   and but also the Xbox one may not be

01:33:28   possible on the switch and so they won't

01:33:30   even get ports or if they do get ports

01:33:31   they'll be cut down ports which means

01:33:33   that most people want to play them other

01:33:34   consoles right so power is still think

01:33:37   the thing that Apple needs to Apple in

01:33:38   tender needs to keep up with there there

01:33:40   are rumors that Nintendo actually is

01:33:42   going to come out with a sort of a

01:33:43   switch Pro with a more powerful probably

01:33:46   nvidia tegra x2 maybe chip inside it

01:33:48   again probably off the shelf because

01:33:51   that's the thing they're doing these

01:33:52   days is making speck bumped versions of

01:33:55   existing consoles that nevertheless play

01:33:56   all the old games sort of like a

01:33:58   generation and a half type thing and the

01:34:00   reason they do that is like the Nintendo

01:34:02   also knows if we make this more powerful

01:34:04   we it expands the realm of the kind of

01:34:07   games we can make the breadth of the

01:34:09   wilds follow up if there ever is one for

01:34:10   the switch but whatever platform it's on

01:34:13   we'll be able to have a more detailed

01:34:15   more expansive world than this one was

01:34:16   in the same way that you could never do

01:34:18   breath of the wild on a Wii U or are we

01:34:21   like that better game that we all love

01:34:24   it just care about the games you can't

01:34:26   do that game on less powerful consoles

01:34:28   because the world is too big the draw

01:34:29   businesses are too large doesn't have

01:34:31   the you know the heart of our software

01:34:33   to set for all the level of detail stuff

01:34:35   doesn't have the RAM so on and so forth

01:34:36   so technology does enable good games and

01:34:38   has to be pursued but absolute spec

01:34:42   numbers are not the end-all be-all

01:34:44   because if you add up all the

01:34:45   theoretical floating-point operations of

01:34:46   the cell could do it looks like it's

01:34:48   amazing monster CPU when in the end

01:34:49   people couldn't even figure out how to

01:34:51   use half of it and half the launch games

01:34:52   we're leaving leaving huge swaths of the

01:34:55   surface area the silicon surface area of

01:34:57   the chip idle because they just couldn't

01:34:58   figure out how to even use all those

01:35:00   cores and their engine only knew how to

01:35:01   use like one or two so they would use

01:35:03   one or two and leave half the hardware

01:35:04   idle like the launch games that's not a

01:35:07   good situation and just put a period on

01:35:10   this four hour ask ATP hey I really love

01:35:14   having the ability to pop the switch out

01:35:17   of the dock and just walk around with it

01:35:18   and I might be the only one I mean

01:35:20   obviously what you said John is that it

01:35:22   sounds like in in Nintendo is seeing a

01:35:24   lot of that but they released there is

01:35:26   some numbers like we surveyed their

01:35:27   users like something that Apple never

01:35:29   does

01:35:29   how often do you use your switch docks

01:35:31   portable and both and like the number

01:35:34   like the number of people who are like

01:35:35   me and Marco who only use a docked was

01:35:38   very small it was like 20% or something

01:35:40   and 80% of people are using a portable

01:35:42   at least some of the time yeah yeah and

01:35:44   I use it probably half and half to be

01:35:47   honest which I know is probably barbaric

01:35:49   to you but you know it is what it is all

01:35:51   right so we'll try to do an abridged a

01:35:53   couple of ask ATP's to round this out

01:35:55   Johnny Oh would like to know hey what's

01:35:58   the deal with sports

01:35:59   he writes please explain to the nerd

01:36:01   crowd the concept of being a sports team

01:36:03   fan I don't understand why people refer

01:36:05   to my team etc unless they've actually

01:36:07   played for that team well you've written

01:36:08   into the right podcast Johnny er

01:36:10   supports experts here now we can cover

01:36:13   this quickly so Sports is about more

01:36:16   than just as with anything in life is

01:36:18   about more than just looking at the the

01:36:19   quote unquote ones and zeros of it and

01:36:22   looking kind of a little bit deeper and

01:36:23   so let's talk about my team so I went to

01:36:26   school at Virginia Tech in Blacksburg

01:36:28   Virginia and Virginia Tech had at the

01:36:31   time this was in the very early 2000s

01:36:33   had a exceptionally great football team

01:36:35   that was quarterbacked by Michael Vick

01:36:38   who ended up being a not so

01:36:40   exceptionally great human being the

01:36:42   dukey's home pods but are they whatever

01:36:45   they are Hokies

01:36:46   there we go yep yeah so the reason we

01:36:50   would one would be enthusiastic about

01:36:53   that is because in the case of college

01:36:55   sports that's your peers like they were

01:36:56   also students of the same University

01:36:58   that are playing in this Gill National

01:37:02   Arena and so why is it my team because I

01:37:06   was also a student at Virginia Tech just

01:37:09   like because you went to school in the

01:37:13   same and same school that they did right

01:37:15   so you were there right and they were

01:37:18   there right so doesn't it make it our

01:37:20   time you don't get that reference stop

01:37:23   laughing Margo no I'm laughing at the

01:37:25   ridiculousness of this situation like

01:37:26   you're right I don't the reference but

01:37:28   like like I like like when I was in high

01:37:30   school I was in the marching band for

01:37:32   the football team right so like I was

01:37:34   literally at every football game sitting

01:37:37   30 feet from the football players

01:37:39   watching the whole game participating in

01:37:42   this weird

01:37:43   like playing music to encourage them and

01:37:45   celebrate victories in the game and I

01:37:47   still wouldn't say we won okay I would

01:37:50   never like my team our team like it was

01:37:53   literally I was right there I was

01:37:54   somewhat involved I would never thought

01:37:57   that way this is my team I couldn't give

01:38:00   less of a craft they did I think gays KC

01:38:04   is explaining is an accurate explanation

01:38:06   of why people feel it's their team yeah

01:38:08   I just I was my kind of thing snarky and

01:38:10   I'm silly but I think people who go to

01:38:12   the school do feel it's their team

01:38:13   because they go to the same school

01:38:14   despite the fact that I feel like most

01:38:16   college athletes especially biased love

01:38:18   are really going to a different school

01:38:19   than you are oh that's variance of

01:38:21   school in your experience of school

01:38:23   absolutely but it is still your school

01:38:25   and you are going to it and so are they

01:38:27   yeah and and this is also applicable for

01:38:31   professional sports except it's a much

01:38:33   more nebulous Association that the

01:38:35   school is your state and/or region

01:38:37   exactly so country for the Toronto

01:38:40   vision right so if you look at a

01:38:42   professional sports team it's often that

01:38:44   it's the team that either your family

01:38:46   has been rooting for so as an example

01:38:48   I'm a fan of the New York Giants and my

01:38:51   grandfather my mother's father has been

01:38:53   a Giants fan pretty much since the

01:38:55   franchise started and so I just grew up

01:38:57   watching the Giants such as what we did

01:38:59   and at the time we lived in the New York

01:39:01   area and so it made sense for that to be

01:39:04   our team because of geographic proximity

01:39:06   where this really falls apart is all the

01:39:09   completely that all the people who are

01:39:13   woefully uninformed and think that the

01:39:14   Dallas Cowboys or the Pittsburgh

01:39:16   Steelers are good football teams with

01:39:18   the notable exception of the 10 fans

01:39:20   from each team that actually live in

01:39:22   Dallas or Pittsburgh because if you ever

01:39:24   notice an NFL fan generally speaking

01:39:27   they either like the Cowboys or the

01:39:28   Steelers and generally speaking they

01:39:30   have no association with either

01:39:31   Pittsburgh or Dallas not that I'm bitter

01:39:33   about this

01:39:34   that's old football fans who remember

01:39:36   when the Cowboys and steals Steelers

01:39:40   they win Super Bowls isn't it now about

01:39:42   like Cowboys versus the cheaters it's

01:39:44   really purses anybody and then the

01:39:47   cheaters are John's team actually and I

01:39:49   don't have a team well cuz your team is

01:39:51   cheaters yes I wouldn't want to claim

01:39:53   them either

01:39:53   I wasn't rooting for the Patriots in the

01:39:55   Super Bowl

01:39:57   so anyway so the idea is that take

01:39:59   something that you either participated

01:40:01   in as a kid so as an example I played a

01:40:04   little bit of basketball as a kid and

01:40:06   imagine watching something that you can

01:40:08   do all right but watching some watching

01:40:11   somebody who is a professional at that

01:40:13   thing and it's just it's it's almost

01:40:16   poetic watching how good they are at

01:40:18   that particular skill in that particular

01:40:20   sport that's what's that's what's fun

01:40:22   about it and then when you add in that

01:40:24   kind of ownership either by way of a

01:40:26   school affiliation or geographic

01:40:28   affiliation

01:40:29   it just becomes fun and you know why

01:40:32   would you watch somebody play a video

01:40:34   game right it's the same thing now maybe

01:40:36   you wouldn't claim that that's your team

01:40:37   within the video game but many games

01:40:39   have teams now to though point you sport

01:40:42   eSports actually do have teams and the

01:40:43   teams are original and they're so

01:40:45   they're trying to adopt that model yeah

01:40:46   but you get the idea is that imagine

01:40:49   it's something that you do but it's some

01:40:51   other people that do it a hell of a lot

01:40:52   better than you will ever do it and it's

01:40:55   just cool to watch and plus you know

01:40:57   games are fun games are fun to watch

01:40:58   games are fun to play and so it's just a

01:41:00   confluence of all of that and I have a

01:41:02   feeling that Johnny oh you're gonna

01:41:04   listen to this and be like yeah that

01:41:05   didn't convince me at all and that's

01:41:06   okay not it sports aren't for everyone

01:41:08   and I'm not a crazy sports person that

01:41:10   watches ESPN all day every day and lives

01:41:12   for SportsCenter or anything like that I

01:41:14   just enjoy football and occasionally a

01:41:17   couple other sports too well the

01:41:18   question was about why do I endorse was

01:41:20   about why being a sports team fan of

01:41:23   having my team I think you did address

01:41:24   that but like it doesn't I don't think

01:41:26   the question was like why are sports and

01:41:27   durable period like just to see

01:41:28   achievement a human achievement or

01:41:30   whatever it's about the fandom and my

01:41:33   team type of thing to that end if I was

01:41:35   to give my short version of the answer

01:41:36   this would be that sports are a socially

01:41:39   acceptable outlet for xenophobia well

01:41:41   that's who that - not that I was making

01:41:44   fun of Pittsburgh Steelers or Dallas

01:41:46   Cowboys fans at all just moments ago all

01:41:49   right

01:41:49   Tee tee on air writes hey I know you're

01:41:51   not a big fan of Facebook and what they

01:41:53   do with their data how do you guys feel

01:41:55   about this whole Instagram thing since

01:41:57   Instagram is owned by Facebook and I

01:42:00   don't have a good answer for this I will

01:42:02   be the first to tell you I do not have a

01:42:03   good answer for this and my answer is I

01:42:06   freaking love Instagram and I'm gonna

01:42:08   steal Marcus thunder

01:42:10   Steele Marcos line and say it's my happy

01:42:11   place and because it's my happy place

01:42:14   despite the fact that they're insistent

01:42:15   on trying to ruin it I'm going to keep

01:42:18   using it until I have an even more

01:42:20   compelling reason not to use it I will I

01:42:22   do have a Facebook account I

01:42:23   occasionally look at it I would happily

01:42:26   get rid of my Facebook account

01:42:28   long before I would get rid of my

01:42:29   Instagram account and that's just a

01:42:31   choice I'm making I'm not saying it's a

01:42:33   good choice I'm not saying it's

01:42:34   reasonable I'm not saying it's not

01:42:35   hypocritical or backwards or whatever

01:42:36   but it's just my choice Marco yeah I

01:42:39   mean this it's a really like I talked a

01:42:42   little bit on Twitter about this earlier

01:42:43   like it's hard because you know the the

01:42:46   tech giant's are so big like Facebook

01:42:49   owns so much stuff if you're trying to

01:42:51   for instance get off all Facebook

01:42:53   services what if you're in one of the

01:42:55   many parts of the world where whatsapp

01:42:57   is like the default messaging platform

01:43:01   like that's that applies to a lot of

01:43:03   places to a lot of people there's a

01:43:05   reason why Facebook bought it for what

01:43:06   was like 19 billion dollars or something

01:43:08   like that like it's everywhere in

01:43:10   certain places like it I know it's kind

01:43:13   of oxymoron but like it's like because

01:43:15   whatsapp is not very big in the US so

01:43:17   like US residents might not realize how

01:43:19   big of a deal it is but everywhere else

01:43:21   in the world whatsapp is huge and really

01:43:23   is like it you know it's bigger than SMS

01:43:25   it's bigger than messaging it's bigger

01:43:26   than iMessage like it's bigger than

01:43:27   everything in certain parts of the world

01:43:29   just to tell somebody like oh well

01:43:31   Facebook happens to own that and

01:43:32   Facebook is a terrible company and so

01:43:34   you should quit you know everything of

01:43:36   theirs including whatsapp that could

01:43:38   really have a pretty significant

01:43:40   negative impact on on someone's life if

01:43:42   they're in an area where like whatsapp

01:43:44   is it's big for them this and it's hard

01:43:46   like I I love the idea of like dropping

01:43:50   a tech giant that that is you know being

01:43:53   you know horrible to people or to its

01:43:56   company or to data or whatever else in

01:43:59   some cases it's easier than others like

01:44:02   when uber is being terrible which

01:44:04   happens all the time like you know a lot

01:44:05   of us move to lift like I did I haven't

01:44:07   used uber since all that crap and

01:44:09   whatever it was like a year ago saying

01:44:11   I've been using lyft and it's you know

01:44:12   what it's totally fine because every

01:44:14   everywhere I've been like I don't I

01:44:16   don't use ride-sharing that often

01:44:17   usually it's only like when I'm

01:44:18   traveling somewhere but you know every

01:44:20   time I've used I've like hired a lift it

01:44:23   and totally fine but there are certain

01:44:25   regions where like lift just doesn't

01:44:27   really serve or doesn't serve anywhere

01:44:30   near well enough to be useful and so

01:44:32   people there have to use you know suck

01:44:33   it up and use uber and I'm not gonna

01:44:36   tell them like don't use any of these

01:44:37   services like if they sometimes that's

01:44:39   your best option

01:44:40   sometimes that's your only option so

01:44:42   it's it and so with Facebook like they

01:44:44   own so much and and a lot of what they

01:44:47   own you know both things like whatsapp

01:44:50   and and Instagram instagrams little bit

01:44:52   of a special case which get to in a

01:44:53   second but like you know this stuff they

01:44:55   own like whatsapp and the core Facebook

01:44:56   service itself for a lot of people they

01:45:00   can just drop this stuff and it's no big

01:45:02   deal

01:45:02   and that's great I encourage you to but

01:45:04   for a lot of people like if they aren't

01:45:07   on Facebook they can no longer see like

01:45:10   the pictures of their shoulder of their

01:45:12   grandchildren because that's the only

01:45:14   place where people post them or like

01:45:15   like like I have never been a really

01:45:19   active Facebook user I've never like

01:45:20   posted stuff to Facebook or anything

01:45:23   else but I do regularly check to

01:45:26   communities on Facebook because that's

01:45:28   the only place that these communities

01:45:30   exist one of them is for our summer

01:45:33   place and one of them is for the local

01:45:35   school like there's like a group of like

01:45:37   parents for the local school on Facebook

01:45:40   and a lot of times that is the the first

01:45:43   the best or sometimes the only place

01:45:45   that certain very relevant news or info

01:45:49   is posted and this applies like lots of

01:45:51   people they're kind of stuck using

01:45:53   Facebook for this reason because there's

01:45:55   some kind of community or something that

01:45:57   that only posts incredibly important to

01:46:00   them information on Facebook so it's

01:46:03   really hard to tell people like that you

01:46:05   should stop using Facebook because the

01:46:07   impact of them not using Facebook like

01:46:10   like the cost to Facebook of one less

01:46:13   account is probably virtually nothing

01:46:16   compared to the cost in that person's

01:46:19   life of not having access to these

01:46:21   communities or this information that is

01:46:23   posted there so it's hard to make that

01:46:25   argument that people who were in a

01:46:27   situation like that should do it and I

01:46:29   made the analogy earlier on Twitter it's

01:46:31   it's kind of like when people get mad

01:46:33   because they have like a bad experience

01:46:34   with a flight and they try to like swear

01:46:36   off an arrow

01:46:37   forever and there's like five airlines

01:46:40   and like they don't they don't all go to

01:46:42   all the same places so like like you

01:46:44   know if you live in say like a hub for

01:46:47   United and United and you get you have a

01:46:50   bad experience on United but just common

01:46:52   it's terrible like what are you gonna do

01:46:55   we're off united it was like if you live

01:46:57   somewhere that's one of their hubs and

01:46:58   all the flights going in and out are

01:46:59   united you're gonna have a really hard

01:47:01   time flying anywhere after that and

01:47:03   there's not that many airlines so if you

01:47:05   if you swear one off when you have a bad

01:47:08   experience and you eat say you're never

01:47:09   gonna fly with them again that starts to

01:47:13   impact your life pretty significantly

01:47:14   without too much time and so I feel like

01:47:19   the tech giants are in a similar

01:47:20   situation where like they owned so much

01:47:22   and so much of so many views of these

01:47:26   like big tech services are so critical

01:47:29   to people's lives and many of them don't

01:47:32   have direct alternatives or direct or

01:47:36   they have such lock into certain

01:47:37   communities that's very it's kind of

01:47:39   unrealistic to expect people to move in

01:47:41   mass that it's really hard to just tell

01:47:45   people like you shouldn't use everything

01:47:47   Instagram is is a bit of a special case

01:47:50   because to a lot of people Instagram is

01:47:53   not critical you know it's not like it

01:47:55   isn't often like part of your job or

01:47:57   anything but like like for me if I quit

01:47:59   Instagram I would lose access to a lot

01:48:02   of like my friends and my family's

01:48:04   photos because that's where they all

01:48:05   post them you know and like they don't

01:48:07   have blogs they don't have websites we

01:48:09   don't have photo shares elsewhere and

01:48:11   maybe we could try to set some up but

01:48:13   like that that becomes a much harder

01:48:14   problem for like for me to be taking a

01:48:16   political stance to say I don't want to

01:48:18   use Facebook stuff anymore to then try

01:48:20   to convince all my friends and family

01:48:21   and people I don't know very well who I

01:48:23   just enjoy their photos like hey you

01:48:26   know can you instead start posting these

01:48:28   over here or in addition start postings

01:48:30   over here like it becomes a much harder

01:48:32   harder proposition and you know I could

01:48:36   I would be fine without Facebook I would

01:48:38   just lose access to these communities

01:48:40   that are occasionally useful to me and

01:48:44   I'd be fine with that Instagram I would

01:48:45   be less happy there certain like just

01:48:48   you know inertia that in that

01:48:51   like I've been on Instagram since I

01:48:52   think 2010 my entire you know like the

01:48:56   entire life I have here in the suburbs

01:48:59   that includes the house my dog the

01:49:03   entire life of my son has all been

01:49:06   cataloged routinely on Instagram every

01:49:09   year TIFF makes a photo book of

01:49:11   Instagram photos for our family that's

01:49:14   kind of like our families aren't like

01:49:15   our family photo albums are like these

01:49:17   Instagram books like it would it would

01:49:20   disrupt a lot of that stuff and so I

01:49:24   it's hard for me to overstate how much I

01:49:28   dislike and disrespect Facebook the

01:49:31   people who run Facebook the the idea of

01:49:34   Facebook and and just the horrible

01:49:37   amoral you know morally bankrupt people

01:49:40   they're included right at the top right

01:49:42   up to Zuckerberg and Sheryl Sandberg

01:49:44   right at the top like they are morally

01:49:46   bankrupt horrible people doing horrible

01:49:48   things and that's also not very new

01:49:50   that's it's not like this just started

01:49:51   happening and this 2016 election like

01:49:53   this is not new at all they always have

01:49:55   been horrible people doing horrible

01:49:57   things they're spineless turds and

01:49:58   cowards I really really do not like them

01:50:01   but I also can't totally avoid their

01:50:04   services and retain like access to

01:50:07   certain information that I need and want

01:50:09   and you know the the joy and family and

01:50:14   friends connections I get through

01:50:16   Instagram so it's it's hard to avoid

01:50:20   it's it's not a simple thing it isn't it

01:50:23   isn't so simple to say like you know you

01:50:26   know are you being hypocritical by still

01:50:28   using it or you know why haven't you

01:50:29   quit yet like to a lot of people it's

01:50:31   more complicated than that and it's it

01:50:33   isn't it's a bigger calculus than just

01:50:36   like do you like these people or not

01:50:38   because I hate those people but I still

01:50:41   you know I've decided that the that like

01:50:44   the statement I would make by leaving is

01:50:46   too small to for the the cost it would

01:50:50   be to me in my life you call those

01:50:52   services too big to bail I guess

01:50:56   Wow I see what you did there that's

01:50:58   where you buy the cricket oh yeah

01:51:00   definitely not affect in there I think

01:51:01   that was quality commands you would like

01:51:04   you would like to get out of them but

01:51:05   they're just too big you can't convince

01:51:06   everybody um so two things one I'm going

01:51:10   to remind the world and the recording

01:51:13   that I'm speaking into to take credit

01:51:15   for the airline analogy you just make is

01:51:17   I'm pretty sure I made that exact same

01:51:19   one a couple years ago although you

01:51:21   probably don't remember also I'm pretty

01:51:23   sure jar Mark made it before you yeah no

01:51:25   it's it's Turtles all the way down no I

01:51:33   mean like in real life not in a podcast

01:51:35   sometimes I say things that aren't

01:51:36   recorded on podcast did you really save

01:51:38   them then yeah this is not recording who

01:51:43   can tell and two I'm going to predict

01:51:46   that three weeks from now or so there

01:51:51   will be a podcast featuring me where I

01:51:54   talk about this very same issue at

01:51:55   length and so I'm not going to talk

01:51:57   about at length here so if you're

01:51:58   interested in hearing that discussion

01:52:00   that will probably happen sometime in

01:52:03   the next three weeks you can check out

01:52:05   reconcilable differences on real aid fm

01:52:07   I look forward to hearing that in six to

01:52:09   eight weeks erectus is by the way one of

01:52:13   my favorite podcasts in the entire world

01:52:14   I love that show so much yeah it's quite

01:52:16   good you really should be you the

01:52:18   listeners should really be listening to

01:52:19   that if you're not already and and not

01:52:21   unlike this show the shows do tend to

01:52:23   run a little long but they are worth

01:52:24   every damn minute so you should be

01:52:26   checking that out thanks to our sponsors

01:52:28   this week betterment Squarespace and

01:52:29   insta bug and we'll see you next week

01:52:34   now the show is over they didn't even

01:52:37   mean to begin because it was accidental

01:52:41   oh it was accidental johnny research

01:52:47   Margo and Casey wouldn't let him cuz it

01:52:50   was accidentally was accidental you can

01:52:56   find a CAS URL is Esther that's Casey

01:53:10   less and a are Co a RM auntie Marco

01:53:15   Arment

01:53:16   SI r AC USA Syracuse

01:53:27   a lot of people have been reaching out

01:53:38   and saying hey Casey have you thought

01:53:39   about the Kea stinger GT you should

01:53:42   think about it it's a nice car it's not

01:53:44   that nice it's nice be upset in it see

01:53:48   it in like the interior in d2 pedals but

01:53:51   otherwise if you you know other than

01:53:52   that mrs. Lincoln how did you enjoy the

01:53:54   play otherwise it sounds nice

01:53:56   it did ty BMW 340 I and in comparison

01:53:59   test which shows just how far BMWs

01:54:01   fallen I think I mentioned that in a

01:54:02   past show BMWs I actually occurred to me

01:54:06   just the other day I was saying this to

01:54:07   somebody shoot I don't remember who was

01:54:08   but it wasn't on a podcast I guess I

01:54:10   never said it I was walking back up the

01:54:14   driveway from getting the Mayall and I

01:54:16   looked at the garage and I looked at

01:54:18   Aaron's car and went to my car I looked

01:54:20   at my car for a while and it occurred to

01:54:24   me just a few years ago like especially

01:54:28   in 2013 for example when when Marco and

01:54:31   me and underscore went to the driving

01:54:33   school just a few years ago I would have

01:54:35   said I was pretty much equally into

01:54:38   Apple and BMW like that was during the

01:54:41   heyday of my BMW loved speaking of

01:54:42   heydays and I loved both of those brands

01:54:46   more than almost anything and I don't

01:54:50   really give a crap about BMW anymore I

01:54:52   feel like I've been so let down by this

01:54:54   one this one experience and I know I

01:54:57   shouldn't judge all BMWs forever more

01:54:59   based on one somewhat crummy almost

01:55:02   lemon but I just I can't find myself I

01:55:06   can't find myself getting excited by BMW

01:55:08   anymore yeah I'm also I mean I think I'm

01:55:11   in a very similar boat but may even

01:55:14   workstream like BMWs doesn't relevant to

01:55:16   me anymore like I you know when I moved

01:55:18   to Tesla like I didn't realize quite how

01:55:22   different it would be and quite how much

01:55:25   it would make all other cars

01:55:27   it's just seem like the past by

01:55:29   comparison in multiple ways not just the

01:55:31   drivetrain but like you know like the

01:55:33   just hat you know that the big

01:55:34   touchscreen having the some of the more

01:55:37   like smart useful little features the

01:55:41   app features some of

01:55:42   the the practicalities of just like the

01:55:44   giant hatchback and how much space how

01:55:46   much cargo space there isn't it it's

01:55:48   super nice like yesterday I brought I

01:55:51   had a flat tire my bike it had to get a

01:55:55   new inner tube but I don't know how to

01:55:56   do that so I brought my bike to the

01:55:58   store in town to have them do it and I

01:56:01   fit this giant you know 27.5 Plus

01:56:05   semi-fat bike in the back of my car and

01:56:07   as I was

01:56:08   I opened the open the truck it doesn't

01:56:10   fit with a lot of leeway but it does fit

01:56:11   and like I open the trunk when I got

01:56:15   there like parked in the street and I

01:56:16   pulled this giant bike out there's this

01:56:18   I'm like wow you just pulled that out of

01:56:21   that car like it's so nice anyway yeah I

01:56:25   I kind of have the a similar feeling of

01:56:29   like like I have no interest in like go

01:56:31   on a test drive the new m5 or anything

01:56:33   like that like and that's why it's one

01:56:35   of the reasons why it was so hard for me

01:56:36   to answer that question a few weeks ago

01:56:37   of like you know what car would you have

01:56:39   if you couldn't have you know this

01:56:41   thing's the Tesla like I I really have

01:56:44   no idea I'm not interested in any other

01:56:46   cars at all and you know again maybe

01:56:49   that will change in the future you know

01:56:51   when there's more electric options from

01:56:52   everybody but honestly I don't

01:56:54   anticipate that changing in the near

01:56:56   future I think it's what we're gonna be

01:56:57   a far future thing but anyway I I'm

01:57:01   totally with you like what BMW the

01:57:04   direction they've gone in has has

01:57:06   seemingly been you know significantly

01:57:07   more mass luxury market like obviously

01:57:10   going after a lot of what were probably

01:57:12   formerly Alexis customers and you know

01:57:17   that a lot of that came at the cost of

01:57:18   the enthusiasts Joby's not gonna get any

01:57:22   like Cisco surahs lesson customers need

01:57:23   reliability they're going after Mercedes

01:57:25   customers reliability but want a softer

01:57:28   car yeah that's fair yeah but it was

01:57:31   kind of funny that like kind of like the

01:57:33   the decline of BMWs appeal to us has

01:57:37   correspondant somewhat to the decline of

01:57:40   Apple's appeal to us it's kind of sad

01:57:42   really

01:57:43   hi you took them you took my moment cuz

01:57:45   I was about to say the same that was

01:57:46   obvious you can't blame me for that but

01:57:49   still but nah right you can have any but

01:57:51   I mean I shouldn't cut you off it Here I

01:57:53   am so since I have I feel of

01:57:56   very similarly but way way way less so

01:57:59   about Apple that there are things that

01:58:02   are annoying me about Apple that never

01:58:05   used to annoy me you know and will and

01:58:07   I'll beat up on Siri just briefly

01:58:08   because that's the most obvious example

01:58:10   like you know anytime I go to use Siri

01:58:12   I'm just died a little inside not

01:58:15   literally of course that's a bit what

01:58:17   support I'm looking for hyperbolic I

01:58:18   don't whatever anyway it's a bit extreme

01:58:20   but but nevertheless it's like it annoys

01:58:24   me every time in a way that Apple stuff

01:58:25   used to delight me every time

01:58:27   consistently that I touched it and and I

01:58:30   feel you know I feel like it's this

01:58:33   vector is the same direction but a far

01:58:36   smaller magnitude that I'm getting I'm

01:58:40   finding myself not is emotionally like

01:58:44   excited by Apple stuff as I was in the

01:58:47   past now there are exceptions like just

01:58:49   the other day I looked down at my iPhone

01:58:50   10 and I was like you know what this is

01:58:52   a really awesome phone and having that

01:58:56   swipe gesture has made everything better

01:58:58   and in the lack of a home button like

01:59:00   face ID still does drive me nuts in a

01:59:02   few hey he's put by and large it's so

01:59:05   cool and so I'm not trying to say that

01:59:06   I've like lost hope and Apple by any

01:59:08   means but and certainly the alternatives

01:59:10   that's we've gone around and around

01:59:11   about numerous times on the show the

01:59:13   alternatives are not really alternatives

01:59:15   but but nevertheless I I find myself

01:59:19   getting similarly disappoint yeah I'm

01:59:23   not mad I'm disappointed in you Apple

01:59:24   and and that's that's a bummer because

01:59:27   it's I mean it's just a company right

01:59:29   like it and here again like have to come

01:59:30   back to the SKT P about sports like

01:59:32   Apple is kind of my team and Marco I'm

01:59:35   definitely taking a page out of your

01:59:36   PlayBook on that one cuz you've made

01:59:37   this point for years that Apple was kind

01:59:39   of your team and I feel like my team

01:59:41   isn't it's not a slump that's that's

01:59:43   dramatic but my team is not winning

01:59:46   championships left and right like they

01:59:47   used to be and that's that's a little

01:59:49   bit of a bummer

01:59:50   yeah and it's I think it's especially

01:59:53   it's a little depressing when you don't

01:59:56   have something else to replace that

01:59:56   have something else to replace that

00:00:00   it's gonna be long you know long drive

00:00:02   but I bought walkie-talkies so that we

00:00:04   could be like Top Gear stuff ain't gonna

00:00:08   find out how crappy walkie-talkies are

00:00:10   compared to modern digital cell network

00:00:11   yep

00:00:12   just start calling each other yeah but

00:00:14   they're really fast like that something

00:00:15   like you just push a button and talk

00:00:16   that's like no linear static type type

00:00:18   type you know I got decent ones right

00:00:22   when I said the modern digital cell

00:00:23   network I meant with the voice like you

00:00:26   do you know you're you can talk into

00:00:27   your phone oh yeah no one does that

00:00:30   I'm just saying you can call people on

00:00:33   it try it

00:00:33   no oh how we miss the days of the Nextel

00:00:37   push-to-talk

00:00:38   yeah no it's not it's not push-to-talk

00:00:40   if you just leave the call connected all

00:00:41   the time you don't even have to push you

00:00:45   set up a WebEx in each car Jesus now

00:00:48   definitely going to bed

00:00:50   Damien Shaw writes Google home allows

00:00:53   for both compound commands and

00:00:54   context-sensitive commands I do this all

00:00:56   the time quote play something and set

00:00:59   volume to five it gets it every time and

00:01:01   quote Google what's the weather in San

00:01:04   Diego - I just said it oh well sorry

00:01:05   people

00:01:06   hey cylinder what's the weather in San

00:01:08   Diego today a few seconds later

00:01:10   hey cylinder what about tomorrow and at

00:01:12   all that also always works for Damian

00:01:15   Shaw yeah I mean this was my bad because

00:01:17   I said last episode that none of the

00:01:18   cylinder supported multiple commands in

00:01:21   one sentence I'm not talking about a

00:01:23   follow up like afterwards I'm talking

00:01:25   about like play Weezer and the volume to

00:01:28   five or you know make a pasta time or

00:01:30   five minutes and a sauce timer for 20

00:01:32   minutes like stuff like that like that's

00:01:33   having all that be in one command and I

00:01:36   don't even know it did anybody say if it

00:01:38   can do multiple name timers I don't even

00:01:39   know anyway it doesn't matter it

00:01:41   apparently Google home can do it with

00:01:43   certain commands so oh well I made a

00:01:45   mistake

00:01:46   I wish Siri and the Amazon service would

00:01:49   add this that's and this was in the

00:01:52   content of Amazon adding there

00:01:53   they're like follow up listening feature

00:01:55   to the echo of like it'll it'll listen

00:01:57   for a few seconds after you give after

00:02:00   it does a command to see if you have any

00:02:01   more to say like you know that's that's

00:02:03   a BS non feature but multiple command

00:02:06   support in one sentence is a great

00:02:08   feature and something that we've

00:02:10   definitely needed I thought nobody had

00:02:11   it turns out Google has it done

00:02:13   so the thing about these cylinders is

00:02:17   like they don't really have a

00:02:18   particularly discoverable interface

00:02:19   that's one of the reasons that Amazon

00:02:21   emails you all the time to tell you all

00:02:23   the new things that you can do with your

00:02:24   cylinder because otherwise how would you

00:02:26   know like it just sits there you know it

00:02:27   doesn't it has no apparent way to

00:02:29   communicate to you that it is now has it

00:02:31   now has a new capability on this topic

00:02:34   are you sure Marko that your Amazon

00:02:36   cylinder can't do compound commands like

00:02:38   when's the last time you tried that's a

00:02:40   reasonable question I don't I guess I'm

00:02:42   not sure I I'd the last time I tried was

00:02:44   probably months ago and May they could

00:02:46   have added it last week I don't I don't

00:02:47   actually read those emails I think I

00:02:49   might have done multiple timers in one

00:02:51   sentence but I don't know like I treat

00:02:53   my google cylinders like every time I

00:02:56   talk to them I'm daring them not to

00:02:58   understand me I say things in an

00:03:02   informal way in a more complicated way

00:03:05   than then you know I don't not in the

00:03:08   more complicated but that I don't

00:03:08   simplify them I don't dumb it down to

00:03:10   say okay cylinder I know you won't

00:03:13   understand me so let me explain to you

00:03:15   very clearly and slowly what I want I

00:03:16   just say it and which is daring it's

00:03:19   like go ahead screw up don't and most of

00:03:21   the time a the succeeds and that's that

00:03:24   little weird game that I play with it is

00:03:26   part of my satisfaction with the product

00:03:28   part of the satisfaction is the

00:03:29   challenge and seeing the challenge be

00:03:31   met by this little thing in my house

00:03:33   right but on the discoverability front I

00:03:38   think actually one of the pieces of

00:03:40   feedback that we got that may not have

00:03:41   made into notes is that what the heck is

00:03:45   it called home pod also can do compound

00:03:48   things or at least play music or other

00:03:51   audio and issue a volume level at the

00:03:54   same time and they can expect what I was

00:03:56   saying it's not always clear what these

00:03:59   cylinders can do for us and the only way

00:04:01   to really find out is to try and the

00:04:03   problem with trying is it fail if it

00:04:05   falls on its face you're like oh my

00:04:06   stupid silicon cylinder can't do that

00:04:08   thing

00:04:08   two months later maybe it can do that

00:04:11   thing and you have no idea so I guess

00:04:13   the moral is I mean I don't know what

00:04:15   the solution is here because Amazon the

00:04:16   emails one approach just keep spamming

00:04:18   people so they realize you can ask get

00:04:20   facts about dogs right but I don't think

00:04:23   that's a great solution either you

00:04:25   certainly don't want these cylinders

00:04:26   like

00:04:27   when you you know wake up and tell the

00:04:29   turn on the lights to throw in a

00:04:31   sentence or two about these new

00:04:32   capabilities although if I can imagine

00:04:34   like in sci-fi movies and in bed

00:04:36   infomercials made by people who don't

00:04:38   know how actual people act soldiers

00:04:40   would always be telling you about the

00:04:41   stuff they can do and you'd be delighted

00:04:42   like you know the sci-fi actor wakes up

00:04:45   and you know his futuristic apartment

00:04:48   and all his devices Tom I just wanted

00:04:51   you to know the last night I had new

00:04:52   capabilities and blah blah blah and he's

00:04:53   like oh thank thank you cylinder but in

00:04:56   real life you need to smash the thing

00:04:57   with a hamburger in the morning like

00:04:59   that huh and in vert aizen's people are

00:05:03   so happy to hear the new capabilities

00:05:04   that the refrigerator has no they're not

00:05:06   happy they don't want to know so I don't

00:05:09   know what the solution is certainly when

00:05:11   you wake up like your five-year-old

00:05:13   doesn't say father I can now understand

00:05:16   compounds like they just grow and get

00:05:18   better and we expect them to you know to

00:05:20   grow and get better but appliances

00:05:22   especially appliances that we don't see

00:05:24   doing software update or appliances that

00:05:25   get enhanced by changes on the server

00:05:27   that really are invisible to us like it

00:05:29   doesn't affect our you know it's I don't

00:05:31   know it's it's tricky maybe they should

00:05:33   have little tiny brain icons that grow

00:05:35   as they get smarter and they're becoming

00:05:36   you wake up this morning say Oh cylinder

00:05:38   I see your brain is a little bit bigger

00:05:40   that's great why not not an actual

00:05:42   solution just kidding also I feel like

00:05:44   you know like the like supporting

00:05:46   compound commands is not a binary like

00:05:49   yes it does now no it doesn't thing like

00:05:50   people said the home pod can do like you

00:05:53   know play a playlist at music level but

00:05:55   can it do like set a timer for 10

00:05:57   minutes and turn on the office lights

00:06:00   and can Google home do that I don't know

00:06:01   like one of the biggest use cases I

00:06:03   think for multiple commands would be

00:06:05   turning on or off multiple smart home

00:06:07   things at once that don't already have a

00:06:09   pre-existing group so you could say like

00:06:11   you know hey cylinder turn on lights in

00:06:14   office bedroom and kitchen that might be

00:06:16   three commands by you know normally

00:06:17   three separate commands that's pretty

00:06:19   tedious but if we're you can say like

00:06:21   hey cylinder turn off outside lights and

00:06:23   lamps in living room like you know can

00:06:25   you do that can you say turn on kitchen

00:06:27   lights and start a pasta timer for five

00:06:29   minutes like can you can you combine

00:06:30   domains in one sentence like this it's

00:06:33   one of those things like again like this

00:06:34   is this is the kind of thing humans

00:06:35   expect to work at some point and

00:06:39   I were smarter but the good thing is

00:06:41   that these assistants are getting

00:06:44   smarter at some of them faster paces

00:06:47   than others let's be honest to your

00:06:49   Apple has lagging behind here here

00:06:52   pretty badly and in like rate of

00:06:54   improvement but you know the Amazon and

00:06:57   Google services are doing great they're

00:06:59   really improving very quickly and so

00:07:01   that's that's promising like it wouldn't

00:07:03   surprise me if they get there fairly

00:07:05   soon one other little nitpick while

00:07:08   we're on the the cylinder thing and this

00:07:10   is this is something that bothers me

00:07:11   about Siri that the Amazon service will

00:07:15   interpret things you say literally if

00:07:18   you if you give like an unusual phrasing

00:07:21   so for instance if I say if I want a

00:07:24   timer for like if I'm starting this

00:07:27   happening of the night I was starting

00:07:28   some something in you know some rice or

00:07:31   pasta or something in a pot and I also

00:07:32   had some I was gonna put some french

00:07:34   fries in the oven so I asked the Amazon

00:07:37   cylinder you know start a timer for

00:07:39   Frank for you know rice for 25 minutes

00:07:41   and I said start a start french fries

00:07:44   timer for 10 minutes and so what I

00:07:48   wanted was in 10 minutes for it to say

00:07:50   start the French fries so it's weird you

00:07:52   have to say start a start french fries

00:07:54   timer the Amazon servers gets that right

00:07:57   every single time it always knows what I

00:08:00   mean by that it's like treating it as a

00:08:01   string literal it's like this is the

00:08:03   name of the timer you are so you are

00:08:04   creating here and it gets it right every

00:08:07   time it's one of those one of those

00:08:08   things like John said you know like like

00:08:09   we're like you know you're almost trying

00:08:11   to trip it up like by trying this kind

00:08:13   of thing that's the opposite of what is

00:08:15   that because you're playing like a sex

00:08:16   adventure yes

00:08:18   like you want a thing that works like a

00:08:20   programmer and you're a programmer and

00:08:21   you're like you see the the placeholders

00:08:23   in your head and you're telling them in

00:08:25   because you know how they'll be

00:08:25   interpreted but I would argue the note

00:08:27   human speaks to another intelligent

00:08:29   thing like that you're playing the game

00:08:31   that is your cylinder which is fine I

00:08:32   think it's a useful feature people want

00:08:34   to play that game but it would be better

00:08:36   like if you if you were talking to

00:08:39   another human you probably would have

00:08:40   said don't let me forget to start the

00:08:42   French fries in 10 minutes or I'd like

00:08:44   something like that or remind me in 10

00:08:46   minutes to start the French for it but I

00:08:48   was avoiding remind me because it sounds

00:08:49   more like the creative reminder right

00:08:51   like you're good oh my

00:08:52   and timers or whatever it you just

00:08:54   wanted to know what you mean or tell me

00:08:55   in ten minutes you know whatever it is

00:08:57   like but that's what that's what timers

00:08:59   are like named timers are basically

00:09:01   telling you this thing at this like in

00:09:03   this time and it's great it's a very

00:09:05   very useful function and it's awesome to

00:09:07   like you to hear the people off and say

00:09:09   your start french fries timer is done

00:09:11   like that's it's great because it

00:09:12   reminds you like what to do and that

00:09:13   staggering things out that's awkward to

00:09:16   when it says your start french fries

00:09:18   timer I don't want I wanted to say it's

00:09:20   time to start the French fries but it

00:09:22   doesn't doesn't understand the name of

00:09:24   the timer like so I think the problem is

00:09:26   in these sort of this weird area where

00:09:30   you can say it in a vague way but it

00:09:32   doesn't understand what you meant and it

00:09:34   tries to be smart lots of people cut

00:09:35   were complaining about Syria trying to

00:09:38   get it to play our home pod trying to

00:09:40   get play songs that have weird titles

00:09:43   that themselves might be interpretable

00:09:45   as commands and they just really can't

00:09:46   get it to play those songs are those

00:09:48   albums because there's no way to get it

00:09:51   to your point to get it to understand

00:09:53   that it's a string literal that is a

00:09:55   placeholder you know it's to get it to

00:09:57   parse as initiation command placeholder

00:10:00   for thing for song name and then verb

00:10:02   right and it just it stubbornly refuses

00:10:06   to do it and it's trying to be flexible

00:10:07   so we can like interpret meaning or

00:10:08   whatever but if there's any ambiguity it

00:10:11   falls over whereas the Alexa one is very

00:10:13   cut and dried and as there are certain

00:10:15   forms that you can put it in certain

00:10:16   places where expects the placeholders

00:10:17   and if you play that text adventure game

00:10:19   with your cylinder it has predictable

00:10:21   functionality like it doesn't vary like

00:10:23   with the songs with home pod some songs

00:10:26   you could say at a million different

00:10:27   ways because there's no way that song

00:10:29   title is potentially misinterpreted but

00:10:31   other songs that screws up whereas with

00:10:32   the placeholder format anything you put

00:10:34   in there like I bet you could get your

00:10:37   cylinder to say start a timer for a

00:10:41   start a timer for 10 minutes for 10

00:10:43   minutes like you know I mean you could

00:10:46   nest it and it would still like figure

00:10:48   it out because it's probably just doing

00:10:50   a very naive text of speech then parsing

00:10:52   that and speaking of naive Texas speech

00:10:53   on the thing you're getting at before

00:10:56   about doing compound things even Google

00:10:58   is not above punting on this like they

00:11:00   have a feature of the home pod where you

00:11:02   essentially set up macros you're like

00:11:04   look if there's a series of commands the

00:11:06   you could issue but you don't want to

00:11:07   say all those words because weird and

00:11:09   awkward just tell us what you're gonna

00:11:10   say

00:11:11   and when you say that we will do all

00:11:12   these other things that's really cool

00:11:14   and I mean it's not it's like the most

00:11:16   brain-dead thing ever it's like we the

00:11:19   ones were they they had just put a

00:11:20   teepee so I can say hey so under a

00:11:21   teepee and it says played the latest

00:11:23   episode of access it's just a shorter

00:11:25   way to say that but literally any list

00:11:27   of commands you can do it's just macro

00:11:29   expansion very simple macro expansion if

00:11:31   it was truly intelligent you wouldn't

00:11:33   have to do that you would be able to

00:11:35   converse with it and shorten what you

00:11:36   say and based on how often you ask for a

00:11:38   thing that similar to this blah blah

00:11:39   we're not there yet

00:11:40   right but I'm just showing that Google

00:11:42   eventually says the utility of letting

00:11:46   program when you pay people essentially

00:11:48   make macros of their own design and then

00:11:50   we'll just dumb we use only yeah it's a

00:11:54   speech-to-text and then map it onto one

00:11:56   of these macros and if it matches one of

00:11:57   them will do that thing it it provides

00:12:00   utility while they work on providing the

00:12:03   actual intelligence at some point in the

00:12:05   future no I mean and that's useful and

00:12:07   like and I would also posit that you

00:12:09   know I bet Google home customers are

00:12:12   more programmers than average but but

00:12:17   also like you know so going back to my

00:12:19   to my you know started a start french

00:12:20   fries timer like that's that sounds you

00:12:23   know contrived in an edge case but what

00:12:26   I really get tripped up by places where

00:12:28   Siri does Co Siri seems to make no

00:12:32   effort to to understand that kind of

00:12:34   syntax but that can also trip up

00:12:36   legitimate you know quote legitimate use

00:12:38   cases so for instance the other day I

00:12:40   said I asked Siri to remind me in things

00:12:44   to add the 12 volt battery to my Tesla

00:12:47   repair now it's the the word add Siri

00:12:52   interprets that as to add to the to-do

00:12:55   list so even though I said remind me to

00:12:59   add this blah blah blah it ignored the

00:13:01   fact that there was already another word

00:13:03   in the sentence that said that remind me

00:13:06   to remind me basically like it didn't it

00:13:08   didn't figure that out so when I said

00:13:10   remind me to add 12 a battery to my

00:13:12   Tesla repair I got some you know some

00:13:15   tasks and things have said something

00:13:17   along the lines of like you know 12 volt

00:13:19   battery to my test

00:13:20   pair like it and it's didn't parse a

00:13:23   sentence correctly at all and I also

00:13:25   have inconsistencies there where when

00:13:30   you're asking you know to remind you

00:13:31   about about something you will you will

00:13:32   usually put some kind of word between

00:13:34   remind me like to so remind me to take

00:13:38   the trash out most of the time Siri

00:13:42   parses that as add a reminder with the

00:13:44   text take the trash out sometimes

00:13:47   it parses it as editor minder with the

00:13:49   text to take the trash out so we'll have

00:13:51   a reminder that says to take the trash

00:13:53   out and it's like literally the same

00:13:55   thing sometimes we'll do that sometimes

00:13:58   won't it's just like this is one of

00:14:00   those things like whatever whatever

00:14:02   algorithms and machine learning Siri is

00:14:05   doing to parse sentence structure seems

00:14:08   like it's significantly behind the

00:14:10   others and also in consistently so much

00:14:14   of Siri and it's just kind of I don't

00:14:16   know it's frustrating like that because

00:14:18   that that seemed this seems like easy

00:14:20   stuff like basics of adding reminders

00:14:22   and setting timers and stuff like that

00:14:24   like this is what Syria was demoed with

00:14:26   in 2011 like this this should be easier

00:14:30   and better by now and we know from the

00:14:33   other assistants that it can be better

00:14:36   cuz there's our better and so this is

00:14:38   like it's easy yet one more thing that

00:14:39   just like it's a little like paper cut

00:14:41   every time I use Siri that like one of

00:14:43   these dumb things happens and the other

00:14:45   ones it doesn't I think that was the

00:14:47   reminders thing of where it thinks

00:14:48   you're trying to add something to a list

00:14:50   was like one of my original Siri

00:14:51   complaints may be on this program maybe

00:14:53   in an earlier podcast I had the exact

00:14:55   same problem the thing I wanted to

00:14:56   remind me about it stubbornly insisted

00:14:59   on interpreting as an attempt to either

00:15:01   create or add to some unknown list that

00:15:04   I didn't exist because I was trying to

00:15:06   maintain a list and remind myself to put

00:15:08   things on the list that was kind of like

00:15:09   you were doing and it just just could

00:15:11   not handle it and even even today when I

00:15:12   do reminders sometimes I'll do multiple

00:15:15   tries and I'll have to go into text

00:15:18   adventure mode where I'm just like look

00:15:21   I'm gonna I'm gonna give a name of this

00:15:22   reminder I'm not gonna have like normal

00:15:25   syntax I'm gonna be like remind me and

00:15:27   then a phrase that design may you ously

00:15:29   interpreted as text it has to appear

00:15:31   there but it's not the way

00:15:32   want to phrase it like just enough so

00:15:34   that I will beat the text adventure but

00:15:37   also not so much that when I go look at

00:15:40   the reminder won't understand what I was

00:15:42   doing and and this is like here's

00:15:45   another speaking at sentencing I've

00:15:46   always loved the feature of Siri I'm

00:15:48   assuming as a feature of Siri where I

00:15:50   would say I would create a reminder of

00:15:54   something involving one of a family

00:15:57   members name and I assume it would look

00:16:00   in contacts for the spelling all right

00:16:02   like my daughter is Kate but she spells

00:16:04   with the C and it would transcribe it as

00:16:07   like a K but then it would like do some

00:16:09   processing and change it to a C because

00:16:12   did I'm assuming knows that I have that

00:16:15   listed as a nickname for my daughter in

00:16:17   my contacts and I appreciated that

00:16:19   features like that I'm constantly

00:16:20   talking about this Kate person it's

00:16:22   never with a K and I'll correct it if it

00:16:25   transcribes it with the K and I like the

00:16:28   fact that it seemed like it had figured

00:16:29   out Oh at some point along the line it's

00:16:31   like I there's no Kate with the K in

00:16:33   your contacts which would be bad if

00:16:34   there was I think it should figure it

00:16:35   anyway but it's ok with ok I'll change

00:16:37   it to a seat and every time I saw that

00:16:38   little Kate changes see I'm like oh

00:16:39   that's nice that's Siri being smart

00:16:41   again kind of like the Google thing

00:16:42   where you get like a good feeling from

00:16:43   using a product that you gave it

00:16:45   something challenging and it used its

00:16:46   smarts but lately it's decided to go

00:16:49   back to K and I'm kind of annoyed that

00:16:50   I'm like come on

00:16:52   changed your seat and it just never does

00:16:53   it stay sit so I go and edit it and I

00:16:55   change to you know change to I see

00:16:57   myself and why I don't no no no man just

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00:19:24   [Music]

00:19:26   moving on to annoyances and language but

00:19:30   written language scott-little rights I'm

00:19:32   almost sure that the you shut down

00:19:34   dialog as in you shut down your computer

00:19:38   only happens after the user is forced

00:19:40   powered off the machine for example in

00:19:42   the whole system hangs not after a

00:19:44   kernel panic so in reality the text is

00:19:46   accurate I could have sworn I tried to

00:19:48   make this point on the show and either I

00:19:49   didn't or maybe maybe it hit the editing

00:19:52   room floor one way or the other but

00:19:53   that's what I thought too

00:19:55   and I thought we concluded I was crazy

00:19:59   you are crazy but maybe not for there's

00:20:01   a reason so I yeah so yes I was talking

00:20:06   about how like this dialogue of you shut

00:20:08   down your computer because of a problem

00:20:09   infuriated me because that often happens

00:20:12   when I don't feel that I'm at fault for

00:20:13   the problem so I think this is correct

00:20:16   that it does only only come up with like

00:20:18   an improper shutdown maybe not a kernel

00:20:20   panic the problem is like there are

00:20:22   certain situations where you have to for

00:20:27   shut down the computer because of like a

00:20:29   bug in Mac OS you know like it won't

00:20:30   wake from sleep or something like that

00:20:32   like this happens all the time you know

00:20:34   well not all the time this happens to

00:20:35   every Mac person at some point

00:20:37   especially if you're a laptop person

00:20:38   this happens a lot especially regarding

00:20:41   waking from sleep but you know so like

00:20:44   there there are some times where you

00:20:46   have to hold down the power button for

00:20:48   five seconds to get the computer to turn

00:20:50   off or to turn on and then it says you

00:20:54   shut down your computer because of so

00:20:56   it's kind of like it's kind of like

00:20:58   slapping you in the face it's like well

00:21:00   it was your problem here third is back

00:21:03   on me but I didn't write the bug that

00:21:06   caused my computer's that need to be

00:21:08   power cycled so I think this is correct

00:21:10   I think it does only come up when it's

00:21:13   been improperly shut down but I still

00:21:15   think that it's a bad it's it's bad like

00:21:18   language design to throw the action on

00:21:22   the user to say you shut down the

00:21:24   computer like you can just say the

00:21:26   computer was shut down improperly or the

00:21:28   computer didn't shut down correctly it's

00:21:30   not like you can say you can reword that

00:21:32   in so many ways that that don't like

00:21:34   ascribe the the purpose of this to the

00:21:37   user cause like the user at that point

00:21:40   is probably not very happy with the

00:21:41   computer because the computer just did

00:21:43   something wrong like the computer just

00:21:45   like malfunctioned and then you then the

00:21:47   computer says you didn't do this right

00:21:49   so it's not a good it's not a good time

00:21:51   to do that so I think the wording

00:21:54   actually is reasonably fair for the

00:21:56   thing where it was usually she ate it

00:21:57   and we got a lot of feedback for people

00:21:59   saying that's when they see the

00:22:01   satellite but we also got feedback from

00:22:03   people saying I did not turn this thing

00:22:05   off I didn't unplug it I didn't hold

00:22:07   down the power key and yet I saw this

00:22:09   dialog

00:22:10   and it like I said it can't know whether

00:22:13   you are the one that caused whatever

00:22:15   cleanup things not to have been cleaned

00:22:17   up so that on boot-up it finds this one

00:22:19   cleaned up file whatever flag thing at

00:22:20   you whatever whatever heuristic he uses

00:22:22   to determine that it didn't get the

00:22:24   shutdown proper the last time there are

00:22:26   a number of things that can cause that

00:22:28   to happen only a couple of which are the

00:22:30   human doing something and it has no idea

00:22:32   what you did so I think this dialogue

00:22:33   still does show up in cases where there

00:22:35   actually was no user eyes like if you

00:22:37   have some kind of cat even if you had

00:22:38   some kind of catastrophic crash that

00:22:39   throws you back to login window it might

00:22:42   not have you know have the time to clean

00:22:45   up the things or the processes that died

00:22:47   our crash couldn't have cleaned up the

00:22:49   little things so that when you log back

00:22:50   in it throws this dollar because again

00:22:52   this is asking you do you want to open

00:22:53   the applications that are open when you

00:22:55   shut down right like telling you if you

00:22:57   want to resource state just in case one

00:22:59   of those applications is one of the

00:23:00   things that caused the crash or

00:23:01   something right so it's a good dialogue

00:23:02   like something like this should be there

00:23:03   but I don't think it can know that you

00:23:07   shut down your computer I think it does

00:23:08   guess right a lot of the time and I

00:23:10   think it's not actually telling you that

00:23:12   the problem was yours or that you

00:23:14   shouldn't have shut down the computer

00:23:16   but it is a little bit more accusatory

00:23:18   than it probably could be because it

00:23:21   just can't be sure that you found on

00:23:22   your computer somebody did might have

00:23:24   been you what if your different person

00:23:25   turned yeah turned on the computer and

00:23:27   the person who actually showed it down

00:23:28   left now you bring yelled up or shutting

00:23:30   down the computer but you didn't shut

00:23:31   down the guy who was here two seconds

00:23:32   ago did so probably not the best wording

00:23:35   but it is at least a little bit

00:23:37   potentially more accurate than we

00:23:38   thought it was yeah what if you have

00:23:40   like the world's worst office mates

00:23:41   we're roommates he came to come by and

00:23:43   hold down power for five seconds a

00:23:45   computer sometimes I remember holding

00:23:47   them power it doesn't reboot holding

00:23:49   down power just turns the thing off so

00:23:50   you could you could someone someone

00:23:52   could someone on your family that's a

00:23:54   could be annoyed at the computer or

00:23:56   something hung or crash or whatever and

00:23:58   they hold them the power button for five

00:23:59   seconds and the thing turns off I think

00:24:01   that's what it does right just turns off

00:24:02   yeah I do that right yeah and then they

00:24:04   leave and go to sleep next morning the

00:24:06   whole family wakes up someone else goes

00:24:08   to the computer it hits the spacebar

00:24:11   it doesn't wake up and go huh and

00:24:13   hopefully they find the power switch

00:24:14   which used to be on the keyboard which

00:24:16   was super convenient and the thing

00:24:18   starts up and it says you should tell

00:24:19   the computer probably like what do you

00:24:20   mean I just woke up I didn't shut down

00:24:22   the computer because of

00:24:23   problem so again the dialog box can't

00:24:25   no-show could probably probably should

00:24:27   err on the side of being uh unassuming

00:24:30   your innocence I love how much time

00:24:35   we've given this dialog box because it

00:24:36   drives me nuts every time and me Lisa

00:24:38   doesn't have a typo like Disk Utility

00:24:39   yeah right like maybe in like you know

00:24:42   Peak Sierra or whatever the hell comes

00:24:44   next I don't know my California maybe

00:24:46   somebody will reword this dialogue in

00:24:48   the English localization to not do this

00:24:50   stupid blame thing okay we need to move

00:24:53   on so let's talk about gdpr which i

00:24:57   already forgot the acronym but it's

00:24:59   basically the you are in control of your

00:25:01   data law that we discussed last week

00:25:03   erin power writes in with regard to the

00:25:06   cookie law in gdpr

00:25:08   i think that the problem is the

00:25:09   companies especially american companies

00:25:11   don't understand what the law covers and

00:25:12   put warnings when there is no need or

00:25:14   don't put warnings in when they're

00:25:15   required so to talk about the cookie law

00:25:18   then that doesn't apply only to cookies

00:25:23   according to Erin it applies to any form

00:25:25   of persistent storage like local storage

00:25:27   it also doesn't apply to first-party

00:25:29   cookies so like a cookie to keep you

00:25:31   logged in it only applies in their

00:25:33   cookies from a third party like google

00:25:34   analytics now according to Erin the

00:25:37   cookie law was weak however gdpr is a

00:25:38   much stricter and more consequential law

00:25:41   in there's bigger penalties if you don't

00:25:43   follow it so there's a lot of bullets

00:25:46   here I'm assuming because one of you put

00:25:49   this in the show notes I am supposed to

00:25:50   be reading them so I you supposed to

00:25:52   learn how to summarize the challenges

00:25:54   you are the chief you're not just a

00:25:56   summarizer Casey you're the chief

00:25:58   summarizer in chief I'm pulling at my

00:26:00   tie I'm pulling at my tie right now I'm

00:26:02   not just encase oh basically any of the

00:26:06   personal information that you give to a

00:26:08   company it is qualified under gdpr the

00:26:12   company can't hold on to it unless

00:26:13   there's a reasonable reason to do so

00:26:15   they need to absolutely get your consent

00:26:17   to hold on to it and with kids it

00:26:21   requires their parent's permission which

00:26:23   apparently must be verifiable then once

00:26:26   you say no I don't want you to have my

00:26:29   data anymore then the data must be at

00:26:32   least slightly anonymized such that a

00:26:34   single piece of data isn't enough to

00:26:35   identify you

00:26:36   and then you can also ask at any time

00:26:38   for what personal data the company has

00:26:41   for you and also you can get them to

00:26:44   erase your data and inform third parties

00:26:47   that they need to erase their data now

00:26:48   the real kicker though is that if they

00:26:50   don't do this the fines can be up to 20

00:26:53   million euros or 4% of the company's

00:26:57   worldwide turnover whatever that means

00:26:58   but I'm assuming that's a lot and it's

00:27:01   not whichever is lower it's whichever is

00:27:03   higher turnover is one of those I'm

00:27:06   assuming it's a British ISM but they

00:27:07   just mean revenue four percent of the

00:27:08   company's revenue in americanese thank

00:27:11   you so basically this could amount to a

00:27:14   whole crapload of money and that's why

00:27:17   everyone especially in Europe who's

00:27:20   actually paying attention to this is

00:27:22   freaking out and not to say that

00:27:23   Americans shouldn't be freaking out

00:27:25   because we will be held to this as well

00:27:27   but it seems that the Europeans are way

00:27:29   ahead of this and I believe this comes

00:27:30   online that's a poor choice of words but

00:27:32   I believe this becomes law and and it

00:27:35   can be enforced sometime in the next few

00:27:37   months I'm not mistaken this is like you

00:27:39   know last episode like I had read some

00:27:42   about it I was a little familiar with it

00:27:44   I should have been a lot more familiar

00:27:46   with it this is like the kind of thing

00:27:48   like I don't know why I'm only hearing

00:27:50   about this like a month or two before it

00:27:53   goes live but I'm glad I heard about it

00:27:55   at least a month or two before it was

00:27:56   live because you can make your

00:27:57   onboarding screen right

00:27:59   I'm not wall ready I mean I have a login

00:28:02   screen already and and and I'm like I'm

00:28:06   married like overcast has already

00:28:07   complied with a lot of this already just

00:28:10   by having fairly reasonable practices

00:28:13   not closing that much data in the first

00:28:14   place

00:28:15   having reasonable security practices and

00:28:17   and having like a very clear privacy

00:28:20   policy like I was I was kind of already

00:28:22   inadvertently implementing about 2/3 of

00:28:24   the stuff I needed to do so it's it's

00:28:27   not a huge deal for me but this this is

00:28:30   a huge deal for lots of for pretty much

00:28:32   anybody who has runs any kind of web

00:28:35   service or app that collects data and

00:28:38   and it's not because it isn't just you

00:28:40   know Casey you said like data that

00:28:41   people enter that's not necessarily the

00:28:44   limit it's just data that you collect

00:28:47   and store about people so it's or

00:28:49   analyze about

00:28:50   people like if you don't support like I

00:28:52   think if you analyze it anyway it's

00:28:54   complicated I suggest anybody who who

00:28:58   runs a web service or an app that is

00:29:00   responsible for it I I strongly suggest

00:29:03   you look into gdpr

00:29:04   now like very very very quickly because

00:29:08   there are a lot of ramifications it's

00:29:10   pretty cool it's pretty big it's not it

00:29:12   does not just apply to European

00:29:14   companies because it applies to any

00:29:16   company worldwide that stores data about

00:29:19   European users or European citizens

00:29:22   which is pretty much every web service

00:29:24   unless you block Europe for some dumb

00:29:26   reason but this it's gonna apply to

00:29:28   pretty much everybody and so that's this

00:29:30   is like it's way more it's way stronger

00:29:32   than that cookie law because the cookie

00:29:34   law I think only basically applied or at

00:29:36   least was ever enforced for European

00:29:38   countries if it was enforced anywhere

00:29:40   ever but but it would you know only

00:29:42   European websites would display those

00:29:44   cookie warnings but this is way bigger

00:29:45   than that

00:29:46   and and this this will affect tech stuff

00:29:49   worldwide and you know in the context of

00:29:52   a lot of the stuff going on recently

00:29:53   with with tech stuff especially like

00:29:55   this horrible Facebook Cambridge

00:29:57   analytics you know horrible scandal BS

00:30:00   them I mean look Facebook's a horrible

00:30:01   company I don't know yeah it's like not

00:30:05   a lot of this is new or shocking to me

00:30:07   it's just really horrible and sad and

00:30:10   just disgusting but anyway this caught

00:30:13   this law will have a pretty big impact

00:30:16   on a lot of the worst stuff about the

00:30:20   web and it's probably gonna be a pretty

00:30:22   good positive impact it's probably well

00:30:24   not good for them but but screw them

00:30:27   it's probably gonna have a really good

00:30:29   impact for you know people who respect

00:30:32   their users and those users who want to

00:30:35   be respected so it's it's it's gonna be

00:30:37   a good thing

00:30:38   I wish there were more resources online

00:30:42   so far about you know how to comply

00:30:44   without having to like higher GDP our

00:30:46   compliance specialist too you know for a

00:30:49   lot of money that you probably can't get

00:30:50   in late April to you know to help you

00:30:53   out but it it's going to change a lot of

00:30:57   things if it's enforced and the the EU

00:31:00   is you know usually pretty good at like

00:31:02   you know like when they when they pass

00:31:03   consumer protection regulations

00:31:04   they tend to enforce them so the this

00:31:07   this should be interesting it's probably

00:31:09   gonna be a really big deal and it's

00:31:11   gonna be a a slight pain in the butt to

00:31:15   get some of like the you know like the

00:31:16   boilerplate stuff but it's all like from

00:31:19   what I've seen so far most of its pretty

00:31:20   common-sense stuff it's gonna be a pain

00:31:22   for bigger companies I think but but for

00:31:24   for small companies it seems like it's

00:31:27   actually not that big of a deal

00:31:28   cool I mean it's intense but it's for

00:31:32   the best

00:31:33   Nick temp Ellis writes in to give you an

00:31:36   example of the teeth of this law this is

00:31:38   still the GDP are for the Cambridge

00:31:42   analytical breech Facebook would be

00:31:43   fined up to eight hundred and thirteen

00:31:46   million dollars just for not notifying

00:31:49   its users so like we were saying oh boy

00:31:52   this is the real deal yeah because

00:31:54   there's also provisions about you know

00:31:56   what like first of all has security

00:31:58   measures that you you know security

00:31:59   level you know responsibility that you

00:32:01   have to maintain to protect the user

00:32:03   data you have to like keep logs of who

00:32:05   accesses the user data in your company

00:32:07   so like you know you can't say oh we

00:32:09   didn't know it was some in some interim

00:32:11   was copying all the files like you have

00:32:12   to keep logs and key bought its their

00:32:14   stuff about that their stuff about you

00:32:16   know if you have a data breach how you

00:32:18   have to notify people you know stuff

00:32:20   like that what you have to do so there's

00:32:22   there's a it's it's very wide reaching

00:32:25   it's a very very big policy change that

00:32:30   is seemingly mostly or entirely like

00:32:34   pretty good common-sense stuff it's like

00:32:35   if if you think like how should things

00:32:38   be with regard to safekeeping and

00:32:41   collecting personal data like most of

00:32:43   it's pretty common-sense stuff so again

00:32:45   I I think this is gonna be potentially a

00:32:47   very big thing yeah great continuing on

00:32:51   AWACS writes a key part of GDP are is

00:32:53   that the company collecting the personal

00:32:55   data is directly responsible for any

00:32:57   leak or misuse it can't shift the blame

00:32:59   to a contractor partner a third party

00:33:01   and we see that a lot in the US where oh

00:33:03   there was this big leak actually Apple

00:33:05   just recently I was a month or two ago

00:33:07   had what was it it was like the

00:33:10   bootloader for an old version of iOS or

00:33:12   something like that I'm sure I have the

00:33:13   details slightly wrong yeah it was the

00:33:14   source code - yeah the source code -

00:33:16   like I boot whatever

00:33:17   I guess I guess the bootloader I don't

00:33:19   actually know that much about iOS

00:33:20   internals but yeah the source code to I

00:33:22   boot like an old version of it from a

00:33:25   few years back leaked and they said that

00:33:27   was apparently like an intern had copied

00:33:29   the entire source tree and taken it

00:33:31   right so hey waxes point here is that

00:33:34   you can't just pass the buck and be like

00:33:35   Oh Joe schmo's consulting firm is the

00:33:37   reason that this all leaked go talk to

00:33:39   them it's still your problem if you are

00:33:42   that's an interesting theory I'm not

00:33:44   sure how well that law works in in the

00:33:47   American legal system though because you

00:33:49   know that any company the size of Apple

00:33:51   if they contract any other company that

00:33:53   basically says oh and by the way if the

00:33:55   work you do for us causes us to get sued

00:33:57   you agree to pay all damages you can't

00:33:58   get blood from a stone but at the very

00:34:00   least you know Apple can't shift the

00:34:04   blame to the third party but it can

00:34:05   shift all of the penalties to the third

00:34:08   party until the third party disappears

00:34:09   and basically until they get run out of

00:34:10   money which may happen pretty quickly

00:34:12   but that's generally how big companies

00:34:15   protect themselves is that if there's

00:34:17   some law that makes Apple liable they

00:34:19   shift as much of that liability as

00:34:21   possible to the small contractor company

00:34:22   and then they just get whatever is left

00:34:24   over on top of them right now finally

00:34:28   Michael Saji writes gdpr is also

00:34:30   incredibly technology agnostic and that

00:34:32   it applies to everything everywhere and

00:34:34   it's conceived of as a regulation that

00:34:35   nobody will ever be able to comply with

00:34:36   I can't state whether or not that's true

00:34:39   or false but that was their particular

00:34:41   opinion so that's another view of like

00:34:43   sort of wide-reaching

00:34:46   regulation that it starts to seem like

00:34:49   well this is so big how could you ever

00:34:51   comply with it cuz it's so vague and so

00:34:53   far-reaching that like a motivated

00:34:56   enforcer could find literally any

00:34:58   company not in compliance of some

00:35:01   portion of it right because it tries to

00:35:03   be so it tries to not fall into the trap

00:35:06   of the cookie law or if I want to the

00:35:08   trap of the interpretation of the cookie

00:35:10   law anyway where it seems narrowly

00:35:12   defined and it's just an annoyed you get

00:35:14   all the the negatives the annoyance and

00:35:15   you don't actually get any the benefits

00:35:17   because everything else you can you know

00:35:18   skirt around it as technology evolves

00:35:20   and this tries to be so broad and so

00:35:21   far-reaching and apply to everything you

00:35:23   say and do and it's so hard to comply

00:35:25   with it's just like how how can I ever

00:35:27   comply with the break there's just too

00:35:29   many regulations

00:35:30   but there are industries that are like

00:35:34   that already that even in the u.s. that

00:35:37   we you know we managed to survive so

00:35:38   healthcare is one with as a bunch of

00:35:40   laws related to health care and

00:35:42   protection of information you know like

00:35:43   all right you know finance you got PCI 4

00:35:46   for finance for basic you know credit

00:35:47   card processing stuff you've got HIPAA

00:35:49   for health information and other

00:35:52   personally identifiable information and

00:35:54   stuff like that and those are similarly

00:35:57   weirdly acronym fairly wide reaching

00:36:01   regulations that I think you could find

00:36:04   any company out of compliance with like

00:36:07   HIPAA is very very broad and even a very

00:36:11   you know diligent company trying to find

00:36:14   to follow all the rules inevitably

00:36:16   there's some place where there's some

00:36:18   kind of a breach the purpose of these

00:36:21   laws is not to say everyone is going to

00:36:25   be 100% in compliance otherwise the law

00:36:27   is useless if people are even 50% in

00:36:30   compliance it's so much better than the

00:36:32   status quo and that the law has to be

00:36:35   sort of enforced responsibly where I

00:36:38   mean it's kind of like I think it's a

00:36:41   terrible analogy for lots of reasons but

00:36:42   it something that people will be

00:36:43   familiar with speed limits on American

00:36:45   roads anyway everyone is breaking the

00:36:46   speed limit all the time but through

00:36:48   selective enforcement the speed limit

00:36:52   allows the police to pull over someone

00:36:55   who is really driving dangerously at a

00:36:57   very high speed that's you know not safe

00:36:59   for conditions while letting all the

00:37:01   people who are five miles an hour over

00:37:02   the limit on the highway sale by in some

00:37:05   ways that is like giving too much power

00:37:06   to the enforcers that basically everyone

00:37:09   is not in compliance all the time so you

00:37:10   can arrest anybody but the reason it's a

00:37:14   bad analogy is because these I think we

00:37:17   would agree that some data protection is

00:37:19   good for you know we want we want our

00:37:22   data to be protected in some way we

00:37:24   don't want companies to be able to do

00:37:25   whatever they want with it so we will

00:37:28   take any amount and improvement over the

00:37:30   status quo even if it means that a ill

00:37:34   motivated enforcer of this law could

00:37:37   punitive lien for us pretty much any

00:37:39   enforce these guidelines on any company

00:37:42   and say oh you're you've missed

00:37:43   in this one little corner or whatever so

00:37:45   I don't think it's ideal but I think you

00:37:48   know again with HIPPA health care

00:37:51   companies are not going out of business

00:37:52   because they're zealous HIPAA

00:37:54   enforcement by a giant fleet of you know

00:37:56   government officers wandering over all

00:37:59   the businesses in the world it's just

00:38:01   not how it works even just they're

00:38:02   outnumbered for one thing like there's

00:38:04   more companies and there are people

00:38:05   going around to check for HIPAA

00:38:06   compliance right it's more like when

00:38:07   your company is already doing enough

00:38:10   terrible things to get the attention of

00:38:13   law enforcement that's when this stuff

00:38:16   come back comes back to bite you and I

00:38:18   know I'm gonna say that's a good thing

00:38:22   because again I think it's open for

00:38:23   abuse but it's better than the status

00:38:25   quo where you can do whatever you want

00:38:26   and keep it secret and nothing ever

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00:40:56   will feel real they just like they think

00:40:58   the neck Book Pro is from 2016 is

00:41:01   awesome well I mean like this this is

00:41:04   definitely reads to me as one of those

00:41:06   patents before you patent every idea you

00:41:09   have yeah whether you whether you've

00:41:10   gotten it to work or not because our

00:41:13   patent system is dumb and this is what

00:41:15   you're forced to do with our dumb patent

00:41:16   system and so when I look at patents I'm

00:41:19   putting them into the bins of that's the

00:41:22   thing that could conceivably ship

00:41:25   because I think they could have actually

00:41:26   figured out a way to make that and the

00:41:29   other bin is that's an idea that someone

00:41:31   had some time that they probably never

00:41:34   got to work but that they patented

00:41:35   anyway because you have to patent

00:41:37   everything these patents are done and

00:41:38   this definitely falls into the second

00:41:40   bit where I you know as we've discussed

00:41:42   before

00:41:43   Apple has on-screen keyboards and

00:41:46   considering future on-screen keyboards

00:41:49   is an obvious thing to do right

00:41:51   especially for devices like iPads where

00:41:53   you want the keyboard to be small and

00:41:54   imagine if when you're not using a

00:41:56   keyboard you repurpose that as a second

00:41:58   screen it's an obvious thing that they

00:41:59   should be investigating and of course

00:42:03   there's downsides on-screen keyboard so

00:42:04   you think they would investigate how can

00:42:06   we make on-screen keyboards less crappy

00:42:08   and here's a patent describing a couple

00:42:10   of ways and I was amazed like since

00:42:12   patents since you don't actually have to

00:42:13   have like a working version of anything

00:42:15   or understand how you're gonna

00:42:16   manufacture this is mostly just an idea

00:42:18   which so I patented um I I was surprised

00:42:23   by how unappealing I found the ideas in

00:42:27   this patent because normally you make

00:42:28   the ideas like imagine if there was a

00:42:29   keyboard that did this and that and the

00:42:31   other thing like wow that would be cool

00:42:32   too bad we have no idea how to do that

00:42:33   huh anyway all the ideas this one

00:42:36   sounded awful to me like even if you

00:42:37   could good so the idea is it's a picture

00:42:41   of a keyboard but we all know the type

00:42:42   you've got a picture of a keyboard is

00:42:43   great cuz you can't feel the keys and

00:42:45   you can't rest your fingers on the keys

00:42:46   like you can't keep are like we all know

00:42:48   what the disadvantage we all have

00:42:49   on-screen keyboards especially on iPads

00:42:51   they're disadvantages them so how do we

00:42:53   overcome those disadvantages and this

00:42:56   patent has a couple of ways one way is

00:42:59   that the screen would actually smush you

00:43:00   in when you press it to let you know

00:43:02   when you've hit something and then we

00:43:03   give you feedback that feels like a

00:43:04   button doesn't it I cannot imagine a

00:43:07   screen that I can smush in with my

00:43:09   finger and it pushes back on me a little

00:43:11   bit feeling like a button it would feel

00:43:13   like a screen that's too much is it a

00:43:14   little bit well to be fair I mean that's

00:43:16   what the trackpad buttons do but it

00:43:18   doesn't deform underneath your fingertip

00:43:20   it deforms across the entire axis like

00:43:22   if you look at the pictures this is the

00:43:24   idea of like you are pressing I and you

00:43:26   don't have to imagine how this would be

00:43:27   because just think back to your palm

00:43:29   devices that you all had these are all

00:43:30   old like me they did not have capacitive

00:43:33   touchscreens they had pressure-sensitive

00:43:35   touchscreens which meant that you would

00:43:37   have to squish the screen in with your

00:43:39   finger or your fingernail or a stylus to

00:43:42   cause it to register any kind of input

00:43:45   so the screen would smoosh in just at

00:43:48   the point of contact so if you pressed

00:43:49   with the plastic stylus it would make it

00:43:51   a little dimple there if you press with

00:43:52   your finger would make a little you know

00:43:53   it felt nothing like a button it did

00:43:55   this question very much this seems like

00:43:57   an exaggerated version of that and this

00:43:59   all in theory this would also solve the

00:44:01   problem of oh I can't rest my fingers on

00:44:02   the home keys because if you rest your

00:44:04   fingers all of a sudden you're typing

00:44:05   it's like well now you're not typing on

00:44:06   this keyboard you're only typing when

00:44:08   you smush which talked about an

00:44:09   unsatisfying like if you don't like the

00:44:11   the low travel like buttons on the the

00:44:14   current Apple laptop keyboards imagining

00:44:18   having some kind of squishy membrane

00:44:20   I think your little grubby fingertips

00:44:22   into I don't know really hold up and the

00:44:25   second one is you can't feel the edges

00:44:26   of the keys when everything's flat one

00:44:28   way to get around that is to have the

00:44:30   screen bulge out around the key cap so

00:44:32   it's like this lumpy island of mentos or

00:44:35   something hey lumpy little squishy I was

00:44:41   gonna say pustules but stress bumps

00:44:45   let's go with that we're gonna go Kerri

00:44:47   yeah is that I don't even know stress

00:44:50   man is that move on back to work

00:44:52   probably anyway one of them early man

00:44:55   shows that wouldn't feel too good either

00:44:57   another strategy they have is use I

00:44:59   think it's a electrostatic or something

00:45:01   use use some kind of electrostatic

00:45:04   charge to make it to make you be able to

00:45:06   feel the edges because there's a

00:45:08   different sensation in your fingers as

00:45:09   you glide across the keys and that I

00:45:13   don't want any kind of tingly

00:45:16   electrostatic anything telling me where

00:45:18   the edges of anything are on a screen so

00:45:21   I think this is a patent full of bad

00:45:23   ideas that I hope they never make and

00:45:25   honestly if you if you gave me like you

00:45:29   know you know ILM and a movie and said

00:45:33   make any kind of futuristic looking

00:45:35   keyboard input that you want for a movie

00:45:39   thing like the only thing that occurs to

00:45:43   me that would be acceptable would be

00:45:45   that the screen is made up of like

00:45:46   little nano machines that rearrange

00:45:48   themselves to become essentially a

00:45:49   mechanical keyboard when you want to use

00:45:51   a mechanical keyboard and then when you

00:45:52   don't want to use it the little nano

00:45:53   machines rearrange themselves to become

00:45:54   a screen because if you're going to

00:45:57   stupidly confine yourself to keyboard

00:45:59   input as your futuristic way of getting

00:46:01   text into a computer pressing a button

00:46:05   with your fingers is a really good

00:46:07   solution and so I would have to have the

00:46:10   screen change into an actual button like

00:46:12   a thing that moves up and down and has

00:46:14   edges and then have it change back into

00:46:16   a screen that's it like I don't have any

00:46:17   better ideas on unlimited technology

00:46:20   obviously the better idea is not to type

00:46:22   right not to do anything like that I was

00:46:24   cracks me up about a anime series that

00:46:26   neither one of you that's heard of that

00:46:28   I enjoy ghost in the shell' was a movie

00:46:30   and there's a television series and

00:46:32   other spin-offs from it

00:46:33   and one of the signature visual flares

00:46:36   is they have these you know sort of

00:46:37   cyborg people or robot people sitting in

00:46:41   front of computer terminals and because

00:46:43   they're not regular people like you know

00:46:45   their hands are all robotic hands and

00:46:47   they look like normal hands but then

00:46:48   they put their hands over the keyboard

00:46:49   but now since they're robots their hands

00:46:51   kind of like open up and fold out and

00:46:53   explode and these huge tentacles come

00:46:55   out of them where their fingers were and

00:46:56   those tentacles fly over the key

00:46:58   services typing faster than any human

00:47:01   can type across this giant keypad right

00:47:03   like that's their you know superpower

00:47:05   it's like a human can only type this

00:47:06   fast but they're little meat fingers but

00:47:07   look at the these ghost in the shell'

00:47:09   cyborg machines they could type much

00:47:10   faster because they have all these metal

00:47:11   tendrils that go out all over the

00:47:13   keyboard it's like if you're a cyborg

00:47:14   just plug into the rs-232 port for

00:47:17   crying out typing keys on the keyboard

00:47:21   like this this is a control room

00:47:22   designed for these robot cyborgs

00:47:24   thingies they can just connect with a

00:47:26   serial cable they don't need to press

00:47:28   buttons anyway I'm digressing but yeah

00:47:31   so this patent does not describe a

00:47:33   product I would like to use and it does

00:47:35   not describe a product I think anyone

00:47:36   would like to use but it does show that

00:47:38   Apple continues to investigate ways to

00:47:40   make to be able to have screen when you

00:47:43   want a screen and keyboard when you want

00:47:44   a keyboard there is one good idea in

00:47:47   this patent they fixed the arrow keys

00:47:51   they have the correct arrow key layout

00:47:54   in the patent illustration yeah but if

00:47:57   you get that layout you have to stand up

00:47:59   out of your seat and say McDonald's I

00:48:01   get the reference no I mean this is like

00:48:04   I just this is potentially cool down the

00:48:08   road but like I think a concern that I

00:48:10   have here again this is not gonna be a

00:48:13   half hour rant a concern I have here is

00:48:15   like what if what if Apple looks at the

00:48:18   current problems of the keyboards in the

00:48:19   laptops and instead of saying wow we

00:48:24   need to make more reliable key switches

00:48:25   what if they're like you know there's a

00:48:27   problem laptop keyboards are unreliable

00:48:29   how do we get rid of the left key like

00:48:32   because like this is a really really

00:48:35   complicated solution to a problem that

00:48:38   doesn't need to exist and we already

00:48:41   have way simpler cheaper more robust

00:48:45   solutions already existing in the world

00:48:47   for quite some time they're called

00:48:49   buttons and they're fine like a keyboard

00:48:52   with key switches has existed for quite

00:48:55   some time and they're wonderful they're

00:48:57   proven they're durable they're

00:48:59   affordable they're repairable it's

00:49:02   wonderful it's cool that somebody is

00:49:05   filing patents and doing research in

00:49:07   these crazy directions I just really

00:49:09   hope that that's just for a like you

00:49:11   know files many patents as possible

00:49:12   purposes not actual future product

00:49:15   directions because the problem they're

00:49:17   solving is entirely self created and

00:49:20   optional it's not cool that the farming

00:49:23   patents pending suck but we just saw a

00:49:25   patent for the four key switches last

00:49:27   show right so they are investigating

00:49:28   that but I think I think it actually is

00:49:30   important to investigate ways to make

00:49:33   on-screen keyboards better because like

00:49:37   yes it's bad if they think this is a

00:49:39   replacement for keyboards but we already

00:49:41   have on-screen keyboards I would like

00:49:43   those on-screen keyboards to be better

00:49:45   and I also think replacing those flat

00:49:49   smart keyboard things on iPads with

00:49:52   thinner lighter things that can double

00:49:55   as a second screen when they're not a

00:49:57   keyboard would give everybody the multi

00:49:59   pad lifestyle all right and you know I

00:50:01   think that's worth pursuing if you can

00:50:04   figure out a way to make a combo

00:50:07   keyboard screen that is an OK screen and

00:50:12   a passable keyboard that's worth

00:50:14   investigating not as a replacement for

00:50:16   your laptops unless it is really

00:50:18   fantastic but just as a potential

00:50:20   accessory I know that said this

00:50:23   particular patent doesn't paint anything

00:50:25   that I find compelling like but even if

00:50:28   they could build everything this exactly

00:50:30   where they said I don't think it would

00:50:32   be a satisfying keyboard in fact I think

00:50:34   it might even be less satisfying than

00:50:36   just a picture of a keyboard on a screen

00:50:37   that we have now but I do think Apple

00:50:40   should be investigating this because

00:50:41   they do have a lot of device to the

00:50:42   screens they already have on-screen

00:50:43   keyboard so yes of course they should be

00:50:45   investigating ways to make them better

00:50:46   and every way they investigate whether

00:50:48   turns out to be a turkey or not they're

00:50:50   gonna patent it by by the way let's

00:50:52   appreciate all the ways that patent

00:50:54   diagrams are ridiculous there's of

00:50:56   course the classic patent hands where

00:50:57   anytime you see a hand in a patent it

00:50:59   looks in human and weird they do pretty

00:51:00   good these fingers look kind of like

00:51:02   finger so I'm proud of them there but

00:51:04   then the keyboard control isn't next to

00:51:06   the space bar what the hell like you

00:51:08   have a keyboard right in front you

00:51:09   probably when you're making this diagram

00:51:10   like just look down control isn't next

00:51:12   to the keyboard and they didn't label

00:51:13   all the modifiers anyway they just

00:51:14   labeled some of them I'm gonna label

00:51:16   control and you know what controls next

00:51:18   to the space bar right on the Mac okay

00:51:19   let's do that

00:51:20   nope Oh John oh my word

00:51:25   speaking of Apple making things

00:51:26   apparently they're making their own

00:51:28   displays so we got word over the last

00:51:32   few days that Apple is trying to do

00:51:35   micro LED which is I guess a also

00:51:38   organic but different than OLED display

00:51:42   technology and apparently somewhere in

00:51:44   California and in in cahoots with

00:51:47   somewhere in Taiwan if I recall

00:51:49   correctly they are trying to in-house

00:51:52   develop a brand new display technology

00:51:54   and the theory goes that they will

00:51:56   figure out how to create it figure out

00:51:58   how to manufacture it and then throw it

00:52:00   over the wall to some other company like

00:52:02   Samsung or something or perhaps Foxconn

00:52:04   to actually build these in volumes so

00:52:07   they're not getting into the

00:52:08   manufacturing business but they are

00:52:10   getting deeper into the creation of

00:52:12   hardware specifically displays business

00:52:14   and in a move that surprises pretty much

00:52:17   nobody I think this is a good idea I

00:52:20   like the sound of this I don't

00:52:22   personally have too much more to say

00:52:24   about it but I'm assuming one of you do

00:52:25   so Marco thoughts it's I think it's a

00:52:28   good idea for looking into this it you

00:52:31   know the the screen is such a critical

00:52:33   part of their of all of their products

00:52:36   really exactly looks like the home pod

00:52:37   in the iPod shuffle tomatoes anymore the

00:52:41   screen is so important and especially

00:52:43   like with with modern high end OLED

00:52:47   screens that's every Apple watch and the

00:52:49   iPhone 10 and every touch bar and

00:52:51   presumably more products you know as

00:52:54   time goes on because OLED is pretty

00:52:55   awesome

00:52:56   the problem is that if there aren't that

00:52:58   many OLED manufacturers it's pretty much

00:53:00   like Samsung and LG and LG

00:53:03   seems to do really well in TV o LEDs but

00:53:06   seems to do pretty poorly in like

00:53:09   computer and phone displays now

00:53:12   Apple has been tied to basically LG and

00:53:15   Samsung for LCD displays for years like

00:53:19   I remember like like my my 2012 retina

00:53:21   MacBook Pro like when I when I made when

00:53:23   I had my image retention issue and I

00:53:24   made that that like waffle page

00:53:26   I had the LG panel and the LG panel was

00:53:29   the one that had all the image retention

00:53:30   the Samsung panel didn't like it was

00:53:31   that kind of thing like you know so like

00:53:33   they've had like this like kind of two

00:53:35   supplier thing for a while with OLED for

00:53:38   the phone it's an incredibly important

00:53:40   component like like that OLED panel is

00:53:42   the iPhone 10 like that it's such an

00:53:44   important component it probably is a

00:53:46   pretty large price component like

00:53:49   compared to the other components in it

00:53:50   it might be the most the most part of

00:53:52   the whole phone so I can't imagine Apple

00:53:55   is that happy to rely on just one

00:53:58   company like those are only made by

00:54:00   Samsung they can currently only be made

00:54:03   by Samsung that's probably doesn't make

00:54:05   Apple feel good from like just reliance

00:54:08   perspective not to mention the fact that

00:54:10   that company is Samsung which is I'm

00:54:12   sure they don't love and yet they buy

00:54:14   like a lot of flash from Samsung and

00:54:15   stuff but you can also get flash from

00:54:17   other people if you need to no one else

00:54:19   can make that OLED screen that's innate

00:54:20   that's in the iPhone 10 in addition to

00:54:22   the fact that they're you know giving

00:54:23   tons of money to Samsung so like it does

00:54:26   seem like an obvious thing for Apple to

00:54:28   try to take display technology in house

00:54:31   the same way they've taken other

00:54:33   critical parts like the you know the

00:54:36   a-series system-on-a-chip and stuff like

00:54:38   that like that does make total sense

00:54:40   whether they can do it or not I have no

00:54:42   idea I don't know anything about this

00:54:43   business

00:54:43   it seems really ambitious like there's

00:54:46   probably a really good reason so far why

00:54:48   only Samsung can make these you know

00:54:50   good enough so OLED screens so you know

00:54:52   Apple you know going into micro LED

00:54:55   which I've never even heard of until

00:54:56   this room I didn't even know what was

00:54:59   maybe that's easier maybe that's you

00:55:02   know a thing they can do maybe they've

00:55:03   made some acquisitions towards that I

00:55:05   have no idea but it's it's a totally

00:55:09   like defensible and sensible thing for

00:55:11   them to be doing whether ever amounts to

00:55:13   anything who knows but it would be kind

00:55:16   of cool if it did because I can't

00:55:17   imagine that they love depending on

00:55:20   Samsung especially just Samsung and

00:55:22   instead of just instead of like having a

00:55:23   balance and also other things they have

00:55:26   taken in-house tend to be pretty awesome

00:55:29   like what like the Apple version of it

00:55:31   that comes out later you know it can't

00:55:32   tends to be better than the

00:55:33   off-the-shelf stuff at the time you know

00:55:35   look at what they've done with the

00:55:36   a-series CPUs what they're doing with

00:55:37   the GPUs now what they're doing with you

00:55:40   know with the the SSD controller in the

00:55:42   Mac Pro like the TE thing the wireless

00:55:45   Bluetooth W chips like there's there's

00:55:47   so many different things now that

00:55:48   they're doing in-house that used to be

00:55:49   you know third-party manufacturer

00:55:51   components and the Apple versions

00:55:53   because of the integration and the

00:55:55   tie-ins and the optimizations they can

00:55:56   do are just better so if they can do

00:55:58   that same thing to displays cool so this

00:56:01   strategy I don't know if vertically

00:56:03   integrated is the right word because I

00:56:05   never went to business school but this

00:56:06   this strategy of aggressively in the

00:56:10   whatever timco quotas owning controlling

00:56:12   the major technologies that make up

00:56:13   their products is actually more more

00:56:17   ambitious and more more more aggressive

00:56:21   than the apple of old even the apple of

00:56:26   apples heyday which is topic we will

00:56:28   continue not to get to in this program

00:56:31   because it used to be that it may be not

00:56:35   just Apple but across the entire

00:56:36   industry for computer makers there were

00:56:41   people who made computers and there were

00:56:44   people who made parts that go into

00:56:45   computers and there were a lot of parts

00:56:47   suppliers for almost every component

00:56:52   every once in a while there would be a

00:56:54   part supplier that has something novel

00:56:57   right

00:56:59   you know so Sony with 3.5 inch floppy

00:57:02   disk was it change from the other floppy

00:57:05   disks it's very a very Sony very Sony

00:57:07   type change of like we're going to

00:57:08   improve on this thing we have a new idea

00:57:10   of how floppy disks could work check

00:57:11   this out I'm not sure if Sony was the

00:57:13   maker of that thing would they but the

00:57:14   Sony 3.5 inch floppy drive is it just to

00:57:16   give an example and Sony Apple would

00:57:20   either know that they made it or Sony

00:57:21   would pitch them on making I think

00:57:22   there's a good story about the Macintosh

00:57:24   engineers hiding a Saudi engineer in a

00:57:26   closet not to let some higher-up know

00:57:28   that they were looking into getting a

00:57:29   3.5 inch floppy drive because they were

00:57:31   still insisting that it had to use a

00:57:33   five and a quarter which would have been

00:57:34   so gross

00:57:35   good job closet hiding people

00:57:37   we'll put a link to that in the show

00:57:38   notes and the synergy between hey I'm a

00:57:43   part supplier and we have this cool idea

00:57:44   for the thing and hey I'm a person who

00:57:46   uses parts to make products maybe we can

00:57:49   make a novel or interesting product or

00:57:50   line of products out of this and it's a

00:57:52   good deal for you because you get to

00:57:53   make you whole product that's a good

00:57:54   deal for us cuz we came up with this

00:57:55   novel product and eventually everyone

00:57:57   can make 3.5 inch floppies because they

00:58:00   somehow skirted these super stupid world

00:58:01   of patents enough to be able to have the

00:58:04   part manufactured across the industry

00:58:06   the iPod is another example whatever

00:58:08   that hard drive maker was was an Itachi

00:58:09   or whoever came up with those really

00:58:10   teeny tiny hard drives the light bulb

00:58:12   goes off like what could we do with a

00:58:14   little hard drive like that it's really

00:58:15   cool and you get something like the iPod

00:58:16   right but eventually all sorts of little

00:58:20   hard drives are available or flash

00:58:22   replaces the hard drives or like there's

00:58:24   no sort of monopoly on one kind of thing

00:58:27   and so Apple in the in the days when

00:58:29   that was the way the industry worked was

00:58:32   more or less content to say we're going

00:58:34   to source our parts from the best parts

00:58:36   available who has the best screens who

00:58:38   has the best RAM or the you know the

00:58:40   best combination of you can manufacture

00:58:41   a lot of them it has a good price they

00:58:43   have good performance David Crawley

00:58:44   control they would shop around from the

00:58:46   parts suppliers and from product to

00:58:48   product in year to year they'd pick

00:58:50   different screens or different Ram or

00:58:51   different hard drives or different video

00:58:53   cards back when they weren't really

00:58:54   super met at Nvidia yeah like and and

00:58:57   that's how they built their computers

00:58:59   there's a bunch of companies making

00:59:01   parts and we will pick among them and

00:59:03   maybe we'll try to influence their

00:59:05   roadmaps and maybe once in a while

00:59:06   someone has a great thing we will

00:59:07   assemble them into a product the more

00:59:09   aggressive strategy is to say I see the

00:59:12   world the parts manufacturers out there

00:59:13   and they make all sorts of interesting

00:59:15   things and sometimes every once in a

00:59:16   while someone has a really cool one that

00:59:17   sparks our interest and we can make a

00:59:19   cool product at it but that's not good

00:59:21   enough we know exactly what we want we

00:59:25   want to push the envelope in a specific

00:59:26   direction we have an idea of how this

00:59:30   could be done better in service of a

00:59:33   kind of product or even a specific

00:59:34   product that we have in mind and we're

00:59:37   not going to try to coerce or cajole

00:59:39   some other parts maker into making it

00:59:41   and we're not going to wait around for

00:59:42   someone else to make it and we're not

00:59:45   going to buy anyone elses off-the-shelf

00:59:46   parts and try to cobble together stuff

00:59:48   off the shelf we're going to design

00:59:50   our own CPUs for our phones but their

00:59:52   own GPUs in them and our own weird you

00:59:54   know step counting neural network

00:59:57   fingerprint sensing secure Enclave

00:59:59   whatever like