Under the Radar

00:00:00 ◼   ► welcome to under the radar a show about

00:00:02 ◼   ► independent iOS app development I'm

00:00:04 ◼   ► Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under

00:00:06 ◼   ► the radar is never longer than 30

00:00:08 ◼   ► minutes so let's get started so before

00:00:11 ◼   ► we dive into our actual main topic for

00:00:12 ◼   ► today I just wanted to have a brief

00:00:14 ◼   ► I guess programming note that we are

00:00:17 ◼   ► also we've started to publish these

00:00:20 ◼   ► episodes on YouTube as well as our

00:00:22 ◼   ► regular RSS syndication means and this

00:00:27 ◼   ► is mostly just an experiment we're not

00:00:28 ◼   ► changing anything about the core show

00:00:30 ◼   ► it's just something you know we're

00:00:31 ◼   ► continuing on relay continuing to

00:00:33 ◼   ► publish via RSS and mp3 like that is the

00:00:35 ◼   ► main that is the show but this is an

00:00:38 ◼   ► experiment that we're trying so I just

00:00:40 ◼   ► wanted to mention it in case that is a

00:00:42 ◼   ► preferred mechanism for you that if you

00:00:43 ◼   ► like you know listening to things via

00:00:46 ◼   ► YouTube for whatever reason that is

00:00:47 ◼   ► something that's there there'll be a

00:00:48 ◼   ► link in the show notes or I'm sure if

00:00:50 ◼   ► you just go to youtube and search for

00:00:51 ◼   ► under-the-radar you'll you'll find it so

00:00:53 ◼   ► I just wanted to mention that briefly so

00:00:55 ◼   ► please like comment and subscribe like

00:00:56 ◼   ► comment subscribe smash that like button

00:00:59 ◼   ► do all those things hit the bell I think

00:01:01 ◼   ► you're supposed to hit a bell I'm not

00:01:03 ◼   ► ready there a bell there - there's a bow

00:01:04 ◼   ► is that different bums up I think it's

00:01:06 ◼   ► different from like or a thumbs up like

00:01:09 ◼   ► I think thumbs up is liking and if the

00:01:11 ◼   ► Bell is wanting if you want

00:01:13 ◼   ► notifications I think I wanna you and

00:01:14 ◼   ► hit that Bell different from subscribing

00:01:16 ◼   ► yeah I mean if there's any button

00:01:18 ◼   ► underneath something and it's positive

00:01:19 ◼   ► go ahead and press any of you push it

00:01:23 ◼   ► three times just in case like you can go

00:01:25 ◼   ► back to all of our like you know 100 and

00:01:27 ◼   ► whatever episodes do it on all exactly

00:01:30 ◼   ► go ahead and do it for all of the other

00:01:31 ◼   ► all of our past episodes and maybe leave

00:01:33 ◼   ► some comments yeah anyway so our main

00:01:38 ◼   ► topic today is we're going to talk

00:01:41 ◼   ► through this week there was a article

00:01:44 ◼   ► published on Bloomberg by mark Berman

00:01:47 ◼   ► which is you know the way many of these

00:01:49 ◼   ► Apple news things start and basically he

00:01:54 ◼   ► has a tip a lead a rumor that Apple is

00:01:59 ◼   ► working on a secret project codenamed

00:02:02 ◼   ► marzipan which is a a a project to

00:02:07 ◼   ► create a unified system for iOS and Mac

00:02:11 ◼   ► apps

00:02:12 ◼   ► run together and this is something that

00:02:15 ◼   ► we've talked about I was looking up and

00:02:17 ◼   ► we way back in the early days of the

00:02:19 ◼   ► show even we were talking about some of

00:02:22 ◼   ► the challenges of being Iowa's

00:02:24 ◼   ► developers and coming to the Mac and you

00:02:26 ◼   ► know wishing for there to be an easier

00:02:28 ◼   ► path and so you know if this actually is

00:02:30 ◼   ► a thing

00:02:30 ◼   ► which in a certain sense like whenever I

00:02:34 ◼   ► saw this it's like it seems eventually

00:02:37 ◼   ► this was going to happen you know to use

00:02:40 ◼   ► the infinite time scale argument like

00:02:41 ◼   ► this was somewhat inevitable that

00:02:43 ◼   ► eventually Apple was going to

00:02:44 ◼   ► consolidate their platforms and if you

00:02:46 ◼   ► know the rumors true and they're going

00:02:47 ◼   ► to be doing it in you know next summer

00:02:49 ◼   ► probably would be their goal you know

00:02:51 ◼   ► with WDC iOS 12 on the next version of

00:02:54 ◼   ► Mac OS like it's going to be if that's

00:03:00 ◼   ► actually true like this is a really

00:03:01 ◼   ► interesting thing and I think it will

00:03:02 ◼   ► create a lot of interesting

00:03:04 ◼   ► opportunities for you know for

00:03:07 ◼   ► development I think it would be really

00:03:09 ◼   ► interesting from a learning like the

00:03:13 ◼   ► abilities that you get from learning how

00:03:15 ◼   ► to make Apple apps that suddenly you can

00:03:18 ◼   ► make them on multiple platforms and

00:03:19 ◼   ► distribute them in potentially in

00:03:21 ◼   ► different ways I think there's a lot of

00:03:23 ◼   ► implications potentially on the business

00:03:24 ◼   ► side and is probably mixed news for

00:03:28 ◼   ► existing Mac developers that suddenly

00:03:30 ◼   ► you know being a all the skills and

00:03:33 ◼   ► Deveaux things that you have from being

00:03:35 ◼   ► a Mac developer maybe slightly less

00:03:37 ◼   ► significant or unique so anyway it

00:03:39 ◼   ► seemed like an interesting thing to kind

00:03:41 ◼   ► of unpack given you know given our

00:03:44 ◼   ► history with this topic and you know

00:03:46 ◼   ► there's a huge disclaimer that this is

00:03:48 ◼   ► just a rumor published in one article

00:03:50 ◼   ► literally today as we record like an

00:03:52 ◼   ► hour so so this is not only like you

00:03:56 ◼   ► know unabashedly our hot take on it and

00:03:59 ◼   ► we haven't had a whole lot of time to

00:04:00 ◼   ► think about it and we have no no

00:04:01 ◼   ► additional information but also it's

00:04:03 ◼   ► simply one article from mark ermine and

00:04:05 ◼   ► his track record has been okay but not

00:04:08 ◼   ► perfect so especially you know recently

00:04:10 ◼   ► it seems like it's kind of getting worse

00:04:11 ◼   ► honestly but you know so take this all

00:04:14 ◼   ► with a grain of salt this is a rumor

00:04:16 ◼   ► this is not fact this has not been

00:04:18 ◼   ► confirmed or commented on by Apple and

00:04:19 ◼   ► probably won't be for some time if ever

00:04:21 ◼   ► so all that said I am soup

00:04:26 ◼   ► excited about this so like to me you

00:04:31 ◼   ► know I'm an iOS developer I happen to

00:04:33 ◼   ► have made a couple of little mac apps

00:04:34 ◼   ► but it was like pulling teeth because I

00:04:37 ◼   ► am NOT an app kit expert

00:04:40 ◼   ► I am NOT a Mac development expert even

00:04:42 ◼   ► though I have used the Mac for a very

00:04:43 ◼   ► long time I have not developed for it

00:04:47 ◼   ► really and in any serious capacity ever

00:04:49 ◼   ► I've done little toy things but that's

00:04:51 ◼   ► that's about it so for me when I program

00:04:55 ◼   ► on the Mac it feels first of all feels

00:04:58 ◼   ► very antiquated and in some ways not

00:05:01 ◼   ► everything but in some ways because app

00:05:03 ◼   ► kit is a much older API than UI kit it

00:05:06 ◼   ► has a lot more back Zhu Ike it was

00:05:08 ◼   ► created in part from the lessons they

00:05:10 ◼   ► learned from app kit like ten years

00:05:12 ◼   ► earlier or whatever it was so you know

00:05:15 ◼   ► app kit is very very cumbersome for me

00:05:19 ◼   ► as an iOS developer to use because it's

00:05:22 ◼   ► I take this thing but that I'm familiar

00:05:23 ◼   ► with and change a lot of how it works

00:05:27 ◼   ► add a whole bunch of stuff you have to

00:05:28 ◼   ► deal with make a lot of stuff different

00:05:30 ◼   ► for no good reason by modern standards

00:05:33 ◼   ► like maybe it was that way for some time

00:05:35 ◼   ► or forever ago but you know now it's

00:05:37 ◼   ► like if you look at what the needs are

00:05:38 ◼   ► now for these platforms like a lot of

00:05:40 ◼   ► things are just different for for no

00:05:42 ◼   ► good reason anymore or for legacy

00:05:45 ◼   ► reasons that that no longer apply or

00:05:47 ◼   ► shouldn't need to apply and so ab kit

00:05:50 ◼   ► development is very slow very cumbersome

00:05:53 ◼   ► for iOS developers and because of that

00:05:57 ◼   ► it's also just expensive you know and in

00:06:00 ◼   ► the time the time it takes and the

00:06:03 ◼   ► resources it takes if you have to hire

00:06:06 ◼   ► Mac programmers there are way fewer of

00:06:09 ◼   ► them than there are I Oh s programmers

00:06:11 ◼   ► so it's it's probably more expensive for

00:06:13 ◼   ► big companies as well and the Mac user

00:06:15 ◼   ► base is smaller than the iOS user base

00:06:18 ◼   ► by a good amount and so the result of

00:06:21 ◼   ► this has been so far that iOS developers

00:06:24 ◼   ► big and small which basically means all

00:06:27 ◼   ► app developers these days like pretty

00:06:29 ◼   ► much every major business and service

00:06:31 ◼   ► has iOS apps almost every major

00:06:34 ◼   ► developer either days either ignores the

00:06:37 ◼   ► Mac completely as a platform for their

00:06:40 ◼   ► or service or they treat it as a

00:06:42 ◼   ► second-class citizen because it has

00:06:45 ◼   ► smaller numbers of people and it's way

00:06:48 ◼   ► harder and more expensive for most

00:06:49 ◼   ► people to develop for so this is a

00:06:53 ◼   ► problem so even if you ignore the

00:06:55 ◼   ► technical arguments even if fans of apke

00:06:58 ◼   ► can tell us why it's better in certain

00:07:00 ◼   ► ways which it is or why it's more

00:07:02 ◼   ► advanced in a lot of ways which it is or

00:07:04 ◼   ► why things are done this way for good

00:07:06 ◼   ► reasons which they are all of that is

00:07:08 ◼   ► secondary to this massive economics

00:07:11 ◼   ► problem of there's tons of people

00:07:14 ◼   ► writing iOS code and who can write iOS

00:07:16 ◼   ► code it's like this massive like

00:07:19 ◼   ► universal language now for mobile apps

00:07:21 ◼   ► because of the market realities of these

00:07:23 ◼   ► platforms so like every business is

00:07:25 ◼   ► writing iOS apps but the Mac is like you

00:07:30 ◼   ► know if we get to it maybe someday or if

00:07:34 ◼   ► you write a Mac app it's maybe an

00:07:36 ◼   ► electron app or some other kind of you

00:07:38 ◼   ► know wrapper or you're like

00:07:39 ◼   ► cross-platform language where you're

00:07:41 ◼   ► really just writing like JavaScript or

00:07:42 ◼   ► web code or something like that and it's

00:07:45 ◼   ► being run in in WebKit on a Mac which is

00:07:47 ◼   ► fine you know like big apps like slack

00:07:50 ◼   ► are done that way it's fine but it's not

00:07:53 ◼   ► good and there's lots of major downsides

00:07:56 ◼   ► to that kind of app like especially like

00:07:57 ◼   ► memory usage and performance stuff like

00:07:59 ◼   ► that native integration type stuff so

00:08:02 ◼   ► that's not a great situation to be in

00:08:03 ◼   ► and also just a lot of apps just don't

00:08:05 ◼   ► have native apps in the math they just

00:08:07 ◼   ► use websites it's like all right well

00:08:09 ◼   ► you can log in to our website and do

00:08:11 ◼   ► this and I'm just I am a huge example of

00:08:14 ◼   ► this in my own head obviously you know

00:08:16 ◼   ► this is exactly how overcast works like

00:08:17 ◼   ► I don't have a Mac app I have considered

00:08:20 ◼   ► making a Mac app before there are a

00:08:21 ◼   ► couple of podcast apps that that have

00:08:24 ◼   ► made Mac apps and usually they have

00:08:26 ◼   ► killed them you just like the the other

00:08:29 ◼   ► indie podcast apps that made Mac

00:08:31 ◼   ► versions seem to like stop development

00:08:34 ◼   ► afterwards like it seemed like they just

00:08:36 ◼   ► like that was too much of a burden and

00:08:38 ◼   ► it just you know was the last nail in

00:08:39 ◼   ► the coffin or something and I'm afraid

00:08:41 ◼   ► of that happening to me if I if I would

00:08:43 ◼   ► do the same thing because it's a totally

00:08:45 ◼   ► different platform like if I were to if

00:08:47 ◼   ► I were to try to port overcast to Mac

00:08:49 ◼   ► today I could I could very easily just

00:08:53 ◼   ► copy over and use the core library

00:08:56 ◼   ► functions of things like the database

00:08:58 ◼   ► the sync engine and most or all of the

00:09:01 ◼   ► audio engine because like all those

00:09:02 ◼   ► low-level frameworks have been unified

00:09:04 ◼   ► for the most part with not a lot of

00:09:06 ◼   ► exceptions at least in the way I'm using

00:09:07 ◼   ► them but the UI would have to be

00:09:11 ◼   ► completely rewritten from scratch and

00:09:15 ◼   ► you could make an argument and many

00:09:17 ◼   ► people have that you should write custom

00:09:21 ◼   ► UIs from scratch for a completely

00:09:23 ◼   ► different new platform than than what

00:09:25 ◼   ► you've written before because and in an

00:09:28 ◼   ► ideal world that's true in an ideal

00:09:30 ◼   ► world yes I would write a whole custom

00:09:32 ◼   ► Mac UI because the Mac is not iOS you

00:09:36 ◼   ► know controlled controls are totally

00:09:38 ◼   ► different the environments totally

00:09:39 ◼   ► different windowing is totally different

00:09:41 ◼   ► like there's all sorts of major platform

00:09:44 ◼   ► differences between the two that you

00:09:46 ◼   ► shouldn't just like be running an iOS

00:09:48 ◼   ► app in a window on the Mac like that's

00:09:50 ◼   ► that's not a great way to do this but

00:09:52 ◼   ► the reality is because developing on the

00:09:56 ◼   ► Mac is such a huge investment for for an

00:10:00 ◼   ► established iOS developer and because

00:10:03 ◼   ► there are way more of us than Mac

00:10:04 ◼   ► developers and and that's probably going

00:10:07 ◼   ► to continue to go that direction because

00:10:09 ◼   ► of this of these economic differences

00:10:11 ◼   ► the reality is not that we are choosing

00:10:14 ◼   ► between having good Mac apps and having

00:10:18 ◼   ► some kind of cross-platform thing the

00:10:21 ◼   ► reality is that we're choosing between

00:10:22 ◼   ► having the cross-platform thing or no

00:10:25 ◼   ► Mac apps and it's not to say that the

00:10:28 ◼   ► entire Mac App Market will go a way that

00:10:29 ◼   ► exists today we don't know what this is

00:10:31 ◼   ► this could be just another option this

00:10:33 ◼   ► could be like another framework you can

00:10:35 ◼   ► use you know a platform that you can use

00:10:37 ◼   ► to develop Mac apps with it as an

00:10:38 ◼   ► alternative to advocate that's how I

00:10:41 ◼   ► would guess they would do it because

00:10:42 ◼   ► Apple has a whole bunch of app kit code

00:10:44 ◼   ► themselves they're not gonna get rid of

00:10:45 ◼   ► that kid so I think the existing like

00:10:47 ◼   ► Mac market is fine and they would be

00:10:50 ◼   ► totally you know totally totally fine to

00:10:53 ◼   ► keep going in that way I don't think

00:10:55 ◼   ► this is a threat to them in this short

00:10:56 ◼   ► term in the long term it probably is but

00:10:59 ◼   ► I think in the long term it's very clear

00:11:00 ◼   ► that Apple has not been moving app kit

00:11:03 ◼   ► forward very aggressively they have not

00:11:05 ◼   ► been investing heavily into it

00:11:07 ◼   ► just like the rest of the Mac basically

00:11:08 ◼   ► and I think the biggest threat honestly

00:11:11 ◼   ► probably to Mac developers is just the

00:11:14 ◼   ► devaluing in some ways of their unique

00:11:16 ◼   ► skill like it reminds me of people who

00:11:18 ◼   ► were say Fortran developers or COBOL

00:11:20 ◼   ► developers right like if you have this

00:11:22 ◼   ► very distinctive skill that if you are a

00:11:24 ◼   ► app kit genius like that is a unique

00:11:28 ◼   ► marketable valuable thing right now that

00:11:31 ◼   ► if a company decides they want a Mac app

00:11:33 ◼   ► there's not as many people who can do an

00:11:36 ◼   ► exceptional job of that and in a weird

00:11:40 ◼   ► way that meat might be slightly devalued

00:11:42 ◼   ► by this just in the sense that if it's

00:11:44 ◼   ► now it's something that is possible for

00:11:45 ◼   ► a broader range of people you know to do

00:11:48 ◼   ► but I mean the thing is like it's it's a

00:11:52 ◼   ► weird thing when you start to get into

00:11:53 ◼   ► like well these apps won't be as good

00:11:54 ◼   ► potentially which is I think a common

00:11:57 ◼   ► reaction to this kind of thing it's like

00:11:58 ◼   ► well they're you know people are just

00:11:59 ◼   ► gonna make blown up iPhone apps maybe

00:12:02 ◼   ► that's true

00:12:03 ◼   ► I mean in many ways it makes me think of

00:12:05 ◼   ► the iPad though where I think for years

00:12:08 ◼   ► the iPad and the way that it was sort of

00:12:11 ◼   ► technically structured was that while it

00:12:13 ◼   ► was still UIKit under you know in terms

00:12:15 ◼   ► of the libraries you were using you know

00:12:17 ◼   ► you the way that you were encouraged to

00:12:20 ◼   ► develop an iPad app was that it was a

00:12:23 ◼   ► completely separate sort of visual fork

00:12:27 ◼   ► in your application that you would you

00:12:30 ◼   ► know you would launch into your I've had

00:12:31 ◼   ► app or we would launch into your iPhone

00:12:33 ◼   ► app and then with the size classing

00:12:36 ◼   ► changes and the introduction of the

00:12:38 ◼   ► slide over and thus you know the one

00:12:40 ◼   ► quarter with ipad apps and all these

00:12:42 ◼   ► things that largely went away I think

00:12:45 ◼   ► they there was the encouragement started

00:12:47 ◼   ► to become that it's it's like being a an

00:12:50 ◼   ► adaptable iPhone app is good enough and

00:12:54 ◼   ► is probably sufficient for most

00:12:55 ◼   ► situations and may not be optimized that

00:12:57 ◼   ► when you are running that app on you

00:13:00 ◼   ► know a big on the biggest where for the

00:13:02 ◼   ► 12 inch iPad pro like it's not going to

00:13:05 ◼   ► be ideal potentially but it works and it

00:13:07 ◼   ► will be there and it's certainly better

00:13:09 ◼   ► than just having the like the 2x iPhone

00:13:12 ◼   ► blow-up version which was what you know

00:13:16 ◼   ► the situation we found ourselves in

00:13:18 ◼   ► before and I expect we would have a

00:13:19 ◼   ► similar thing

00:13:20 ◼   ► moving to the Mac where you know most if

00:13:25 ◼   ► you if your app has an iPad app imagine

00:13:28 ◼   ► running that iPad app on a Mac and you

00:13:30 ◼   ► are probably pretty close to something

00:13:32 ◼   ► that is very usable workable like would

00:13:36 ◼   ► feel not and it may not feel native in

00:13:39 ◼   ► the sense of what we consider native now

00:13:41 ◼   ► but the reality is from probably for an

00:13:44 ◼   ► increasing number of people what feel is

00:13:46 ◼   ► native and natural is iOS and the Mac is

00:13:49 ◼   ► the foreign thing and it could even be

00:13:52 ◼   ► reassuring and encouraging to somebody

00:13:55 ◼   ► who comes to you know if they come to

00:13:57 ◼   ► the Mac and the Mac feels like iOS like

00:14:00 ◼   ► the thing they know that may actually be

00:14:03 ◼   ► a positive rather than a negative for

00:14:04 ◼   ► them and so I think the like dismissing

00:14:09 ◼   ► this in any way for like it's like oh

00:14:10 ◼   ► it's going to lead to these kind of you

00:14:13 ◼   ► know these shovel where you know I

00:14:15 ◼   ► iPhone apps they're just gonna be blown

00:14:17 ◼   ► up onto the screen or you know running

00:14:18 ◼   ► in teeny little windows it's like maybe

00:14:20 ◼   ► but like having something like if

00:14:24 ◼   ► suddenly they're now being a million new

00:14:26 ◼   ► apps available for the Mac like that

00:14:29 ◼   ► would be awesome

00:14:30 ◼   ► that would be I think like there's no

00:14:31 ◼   ► world in which that's a bad thing

00:14:33 ◼   ► I don't think like having that

00:14:35 ◼   ► opportunity like I like that as

00:14:37 ◼   ► something you know maybe they won't work

00:14:40 ◼   ► wonderfully maybe it's not perfect but

00:14:42 ◼   ► it's not like the Mac is this

00:14:44 ◼   ► flourishing ecosystem that is you know

00:14:47 ◼   ► is continuing to grow and develop and

00:14:49 ◼   ► attract new developers you know had you

00:14:51 ◼   ► know in droves it's like no it's not and

00:14:54 ◼   ► that it's like I think this is a it's

00:14:57 ◼   ► easy to perhaps get stuck on the ideal

00:15:00 ◼   ► sense of what pop you could imagine

00:15:02 ◼   ► versus the pragmatic reality of if Apple

00:15:05 ◼   ► went down this road if they made it

00:15:07 ◼   ► really easy for iOS developers to

00:15:09 ◼   ► essentially just add like you know this

00:15:11 ◼   ► app can run on the Mac and when it's in

00:15:12 ◼   ► the Mac it has maybe a slightly

00:15:14 ◼   ► different size class but otherwise like

00:15:17 ◼   ► it's pretty much just the same like

00:15:19 ◼   ► that's pretty cool to me like I'm on

00:15:21 ◼   ► board with that I think that would be

00:15:22 ◼   ► really interesting and overall like it

00:15:26 ◼   ► just creates so much more opportunity

00:15:27 ◼   ► and it creates such a value an increased

00:15:29 ◼   ► value in learning how to make Iowa you

00:15:31 ◼   ► know iOS apps or UI kid or whatever the

00:15:33 ◼   ► new thing is it's like the that that all

00:15:36 ◼   ► that skill and development that we've

00:15:38 ◼   ► developed now suddenly becomes that much

00:15:40 ◼   ► more valuable and interesting we respond

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00:16:56 ◼   ► show so you mentioned a minute ago the

00:16:59 ◼   ► the idea of being ideal versus pragmatic

00:17:03 ◼   ► and I think this is this is the overall

00:17:04 ◼   ► theme of this of this kind of concept

00:17:07 ◼   ► like assuming this is real or or you

00:17:09 ◼   ► know if this happens real versus

00:17:12 ◼   ► pragmatic is a is an argument that a lot

00:17:15 ◼   ► of people have trouble with because a

00:17:17 ◼   ► lot like it's it seems unfair or unjust

00:17:21 ◼   ► or non-ideal to two especially for

00:17:25 ◼   ► people who really care a lot which is

00:17:27 ◼   ► pretty pretty common in the Mac fan

00:17:29 ◼   ► community because that's the kind of

00:17:31 ◼   ► people who historically have loved Apple

00:17:32 ◼   ► products cuz Apple really cared a lot

00:17:33 ◼   ► but it's it's very common like mental

00:17:37 ◼   ► friction ticket over that like sometimes

00:17:39 ◼   ► the best solution is actually the most

00:17:41 ◼   ► pragmatic one which might not be the the

00:17:45 ◼   ► the like you know

00:17:46 ◼   ► objectively like best quality one or the

00:17:49 ◼   ► one that you want or the one that you

00:17:51 ◼   ► think should be like everyone article

00:17:53 ◼   ► forever ago my blog called right versus

00:17:55 ◼   ► pragmatic that was actually about

00:17:56 ◼   ► bathroom trashcan placement but but this

00:17:59 ◼   ► is you know it's a similar argument

00:18:01 ◼   ► which is like you can make a good

00:18:03 ◼   ► argument that what should happen is

00:18:05 ◼   ► everyone who wants to make a mac app

00:18:08 ◼   ► should do it like the most like native

00:18:10 ◼   ► original old-school way which is app kit

00:18:12 ◼   ► sorry classic my people that's I know

00:18:14 ◼   ► this is not old-school to you but you

00:18:17 ◼   ► know app kit is old-school these days

00:18:19 ◼   ► and and you can make a great argument

00:18:21 ◼   ► that all Mac apps should be app kit and

00:18:23 ◼   ► should be fully native and should be

00:18:25 ◼   ► designed from scratch for the Mac with

00:18:27 ◼   ► the Mac in mind and you're right that

00:18:29 ◼   ► should be the case but the reality is

00:18:31 ◼   ► different the reality is that the Mac is

00:18:34 ◼   ► a neglected platform by a lot of people

00:18:37 ◼   ► these days including on many levels

00:18:39 ◼   ► Apple you know Apple is not able to keep

00:18:43 ◼   ► up with their own apps doing very well

00:18:45 ◼   ► on the Mac anymore you know Apple

00:18:47 ◼   ► versions of of their cross-platform apps

00:18:50 ◼   ► the Mac versions like photos usually

00:18:53 ◼   ► have fewer features or you know or like

00:18:55 ◼   ► no it's like these are fewer features or

00:18:57 ◼   ► they have more bugs or you know or they

00:19:00 ◼   ► don't even really take advantage fully

00:19:01 ◼   ► of the Mac itself or they're just kind

00:19:04 ◼   ► of weird designs that never get touched

00:19:05 ◼   ► like reminders and so even Apple can't

00:19:09 ◼   ► keep up with their own apps their own

00:19:12 ◼   ► first party apps on this platform even

00:19:14 ◼   ► they are having trouble maintaining

00:19:15 ◼   ► these two different platforms and

00:19:16 ◼   ► justifying the effort it takes to to you

00:19:18 ◼   ► know move the Mac forward meaningfully

00:19:19 ◼   ► so if they're if are only you know the

00:19:24 ◼   ► the ideal choice is everyone should

00:19:25 ◼   ► invest infinitely into the Mac until

00:19:27 ◼   ► everything can be great but that isn't

00:19:29 ◼   ► one of our choices in reality in reality

00:19:31 ◼   ► our choices are well here's how people

00:19:33 ◼   ► actually work here's the actual

00:19:34 ◼   ► economics actual trade-offs that are

00:19:36 ◼   ► involved here and so our actual choice

00:19:40 ◼   ► is between moving the direction like

00:19:42 ◼   ► this rumor which is a more unified UI

00:19:45 ◼   ► framework more unified app platform

00:19:47 ◼   ► between Mac and iOS or having the Mac

00:19:50 ◼   ► continue to languish having a lot more

00:19:52 ◼   ► apps switch to like you know the WebKit

00:19:55 ◼   ► electron kind of style where everything

00:19:57 ◼   ► is non native anyway and bad

00:19:59 ◼   ► performing and a huge ram hog which

00:20:02 ◼   ► makes your max suck more like that's the

00:20:04 ◼   ► alternative here it's it's not the

00:20:07 ◼   ► alternative is not that we're gonna you

00:20:09 ◼   ► know educate the world into using app

00:20:11 ◼   ► kit that's not that ship has sailed

00:20:12 ◼   ► that's not going to happen so if these

00:20:15 ◼   ► are our options which newsflash they are

00:20:18 ◼   ► I'd rather have the option that gives us

00:20:20 ◼   ► more Mac apps than the option that gives

00:20:23 ◼   ► us fewer crappier ones and I think -

00:20:27 ◼   ► it's also this creates so many

00:20:29 ◼   ► interesting possibilities like the in

00:20:32 ◼   ► some of them are kind of tangential but

00:20:35 ◼   ► like for me I'm kind of excited about

00:20:37 ◼   ► the positive being able to ship iOS apps

00:20:41 ◼   ► without needing a sandbox or app review

00:20:45 ◼   ► potentially that's interesting like

00:20:47 ◼   ► suddenly that like I mean it's so so you

00:20:51 ◼   ► know that all of the apps for the most

00:20:52 ◼   ► part that I've ever shipped have gone

00:20:55 ◼   ► have to go through app review if go you

00:20:56 ◼   ► know are from the App Store and that

00:20:58 ◼   ► constrains and limits the types of

00:21:01 ◼   ► things that I can do the types of risks

00:21:03 ◼   ► I want to take you know like I have been

00:21:06 ◼   ► bit by app review enough times that you

00:21:08 ◼   ► know there's a certain consciousness and

00:21:10 ◼   ► carefulness that I have to adopt when

00:21:12 ◼   ► I'm working on my apps

00:21:13 ◼   ► it's kind of interesting that if for me

00:21:16 ◼   ► to be able to use the skills I have at

00:21:17 ◼   ► this point potentially to ship apps you

00:21:20 ◼   ► know if I would hope anyway that if you

00:21:23 ◼   ► know if Apple did something like this

00:21:24 ◼   ► they wouldn't be you know only available

00:21:26 ◼   ► you'd only be you know somehow able to

00:21:28 ◼   ► run these apps if they were came from

00:21:30 ◼   ► the Mac App Store like hopefully you

00:21:32 ◼   ► would be able to just run them independe

00:21:33 ◼   ► independe anew as Mac apps you know with

00:21:36 ◼   ► the developer ID code signing you know

00:21:38 ◼   ► that kind of that that level of security

00:21:39 ◼   ► that I could just you know sign it

00:21:42 ◼   ► myself put it out on my website and

00:21:43 ◼   ► distribute it like that's a really

00:21:45 ◼   ► interesting opportunity and possibility

00:21:47 ◼   ► and allows for new things and like

00:21:50 ◼   ► that's really cool to me like those

00:21:51 ◼   ► types of things are not restrict goal of

00:21:55 ◼   ► this but as I creates these new

00:21:57 ◼   ► opportunities and I just I love I love

00:21:59 ◼   ► situations that it's like you create it

00:22:01 ◼   ► it takes something that is existing and

00:22:03 ◼   ► creates new opportunities for it then I

00:22:05 ◼   ► don't exactly know like if tomorrow

00:22:07 ◼   ► Apple announced this platform then it's

00:22:09 ◼   ► like you know we've added this great new

00:22:10 ◼   ► thing you know you

00:22:12 ◼   ► can with relatively little effort make a

00:22:15 ◼   ► well your existing iOS apps run nicely

00:22:17 ◼   ► and natively on the Mac like I don't

00:22:20 ◼   ► know exactly what I would do I would

00:22:22 ◼   ► give some serious thought to what I

00:22:24 ◼   ► could do with that because there's a lot

00:22:27 ◼   ► of interesting things that I think

00:22:28 ◼   ► become possible in that world and I

00:22:30 ◼   ► think that I could imagine wanting to

00:22:32 ◼   ► try and experiment with in a bit more of

00:22:34 ◼   ► a creative way and it's nice to not have

00:22:37 ◼   ► it over the back of my mind well this

00:22:39 ◼   ► has to go through app review this has to

00:22:40 ◼   ► you know be conformant with all of the

00:22:42 ◼   ► app review stuff and so if it if I now

00:22:45 ◼   ► have this you know this alternative

00:22:47 ◼   ► place that I can go in experiment that's

00:22:49 ◼   ► really cool too and a lot of the initial

00:22:52 ◼   ► reaction has also focused on user

00:22:55 ◼   ► pricing expectations and and things like

00:22:58 ◼   ► devaluing a Mac apps to iOS app levels

00:23:00 ◼   ► and this is certainly a reasonable

00:23:03 ◼   ► concern for people to have but I think I

00:23:07 ◼   ► kind of think a combination of two

00:23:09 ◼   ► conflicting viewpoints either a it won't

00:23:10 ◼   ► do that but be that ship has already

00:23:12 ◼   ► sailed and that already has happened you

00:23:15 ◼   ► know the Mac justifies higher prices

00:23:19 ◼   ► today for a lot of apps not because they

00:23:22 ◼   ► were difficult to write but but because

00:23:25 ◼   ► or you know not that I assume Africa

00:23:28 ◼   ► developers wouldn't classify it as

00:23:29 ◼   ► difficult but you know what I mean like

00:23:30 ◼   ► not because they were written an app kit

00:23:32 ◼   ► that's not why they're expensive

00:23:32 ◼   ► compared to iOS apps and you know and I

00:23:36 ◼   ► think if you look at the actual pricing

00:23:38 ◼   ► history of a lot of Mac apps there's

00:23:39 ◼   ► already been downward pressure on

00:23:41 ◼   ► pricing by by quite a lot and for quite

00:23:43 ◼   ► a long time ever since the iOS App Store

00:23:46 ◼   ► shipped at all so I think that ship has

00:23:50 ◼   ► already sailed to a large degree and if

00:23:54 ◼   ► if there is already pressure on your app

00:23:57 ◼   ► to get its price down that pressure will

00:24:00 ◼   ► still be there if there wasn't already

00:24:03 ◼   ► pressure on your app to get its price

00:24:04 ◼   ► down well first of all you probably

00:24:05 ◼   ► aren't charging enough but second of all

00:24:08 ◼   ► the reason why Mac apps have been able

00:24:11 ◼   ► to charge good money is often because

00:24:13 ◼   ► they actually deliver meaningful value

00:24:16 ◼   ► to people in a way that they are willing

00:24:18 ◼   ► to pay for and so that's things like

00:24:22 ◼   ► apps people use to get their work done

00:24:23 ◼   ► very specialized apps that

00:24:26 ◼   ► there really aren't good alternatives

00:24:27 ◼   ► for apps that save people significant

00:24:30 ◼   ► amounts of time in their day and you

00:24:32 ◼   ► know like that's the reason why app

00:24:35 ◼   ► prices have been pushed down is not

00:24:37 ◼   ► because Apple won't give us you know

00:24:38 ◼   ► trials or upgrades or whatever it is in

00:24:40 ◼   ► the App Store like whatever we're

00:24:41 ◼   ► complaining about that year that's not

00:24:43 ◼   ► the reason why prices have been pushed

00:24:45 ◼   ► down the reason is because on iOS

00:24:48 ◼   ► there's tons of developers so there's

00:24:49 ◼   ► tons of competition and most developers

00:24:52 ◼   ► expect to be able to make money from

00:24:54 ◼   ► from just good work regardless of how

00:24:57 ◼   ► much you value it delivers to the

00:24:59 ◼   ► customer on the Mac the apps that make

00:25:01 ◼   ► money are not just any Mac apps they're

00:25:04 ◼   ► apps that like you know I'm willing to

00:25:06 ◼   ► pay like 50 bucks for an app that helps

00:25:08 ◼   ► me produce podcast every week because

00:25:09 ◼   ► that's my job I'm willing I'm willing to

00:25:11 ◼   ► pay good money for tools like I think I

00:25:14 ◼   ► think my my get app was like 80 bucks I

00:25:16 ◼   ► consider that a great value paint code

00:25:18 ◼   ► my icon drawing app I think was a

00:25:20 ◼   ► hundred that was also a great value you

00:25:22 ◼   ► know the the apps that I use to get my

00:25:25 ◼   ► job done or that save me significant

00:25:27 ◼   ► time are valuable and are worth paying

00:25:30 ◼   ► for and if this iOS you know to Mac

00:25:34 ◼   ► crossover app thing happens that will

00:25:37 ◼   ► still be the case the only risk to

00:25:40 ◼   ► pricing on it on the large scale I think

00:25:43 ◼   ► is that this will bring a lot more

00:25:46 ◼   ► developers to the platform and so there

00:25:49 ◼   ► will just be more competition but I

00:25:51 ◼   ► think you know history of the world has

00:25:54 ◼   ► proven that that's generally a good

00:25:56 ◼   ► thing even if it might not be good for

00:25:58 ◼   ► certain people who are there now who

00:26:01 ◼   ► have had the platform more to themselves

00:26:03 ◼   ► and have kind of locked up the whole

00:26:04 ◼   ► market just by the you know difficulty

00:26:07 ◼   ► or obscurity of the platform you know as

00:26:09 ◼   ► part of a commuting factor if you now

00:26:11 ◼   ► have more competition more people can

00:26:13 ◼   ► develop Mac apps yeah that might not be

00:26:15 ◼   ► good for like the handful of people who

00:26:16 ◼   ► are there already but it's really good

00:26:18 ◼   ► for the users and for pretty much

00:26:20 ◼   ► everyone else and all those new

00:26:21 ◼   ► developers who can now make careers here

00:26:23 ◼   ► where they weren't before so that those

00:26:26 ◼   ► are the concerns but I think and I think

00:26:29 ◼   ► those are you know either unwarranted or

00:26:31 ◼   ► missing the big picture and I think too

00:26:34 ◼   ► if you're if your business if it's

00:26:37 ◼   ► stated sustainability is

00:26:39 ◼   ► fragile to the degree that in ink the

00:26:42 ◼   ► introduction of additional competitors

00:26:45 ◼   ► makes it fall apart yeah like you were

00:26:48 ◼   ► in a bad position to start with and like

00:26:50 ◼   ► I feeI really have genuine sympathy for

00:26:53 ◼   ► people who find themselves in that

00:26:54 ◼   ► situation I've been in that situation

00:26:56 ◼   ► like early days of the eye I mean early

00:26:59 ◼   ► days of being an iOS developer like wait

00:27:01 ◼   ► you know whatever eight years ago it was

00:27:03 ◼   ► really like I could make good money from

00:27:05 ◼   ► being in the App Store just because

00:27:06 ◼   ► there weren't that many other apps in

00:27:08 ◼   ► the App Store

00:27:09 ◼   ► so being one of them was great but

00:27:11 ◼   ► eventually like that gravy train came

00:27:14 ◼   ► you know came to an end and I had to

00:27:15 ◼   ► adapt and had to move on and that

00:27:18 ◼   ► process has been difficult and that

00:27:19 ◼   ► process has not always been comfortable

00:27:21 ◼   ► but I think that is the reality and it's

00:27:24 ◼   ► the understanding that you know the

00:27:27 ◼   ► position I found myself in back then was

00:27:29 ◼   ► not because of something that I was

00:27:32 ◼   ► entitled to or had you know uniquely

00:27:35 ◼   ► achieved it's like it was it was more a

00:27:38 ◼   ► circumstance of timing of luck of being

00:27:42 ◼   ► the right place at the right time

00:27:43 ◼   ► and eventually that time changed and I

00:27:46 ◼   ► think it'll be the same thing here and

00:27:48 ◼   ► it's like it's just going to be this

00:27:49 ◼   ► question of fine you know you're finding

00:27:51 ◼   ► a way to bridge the gap and it's like

00:27:53 ◼   ► well if you're an existing Mac app and

00:27:55 ◼   ► you have like if anything you have this

00:27:57 ◼   ► great head start because you can

00:27:59 ◼   ► presumably make apps that still stand

00:28:02 ◼   ► out and that are still better than an

00:28:05 ◼   ► app that is not really you know is not

00:28:07 ◼   ► coming from somebody with the you know

00:28:09 ◼   ► that length of experience even if it's

00:28:11 ◼   ► you are still you know developing an iOS

00:28:14 ◼   ► or whatever the equivalent you know

00:28:16 ◼   ► framework that this is going to be you

00:28:18 ◼   ► know I would imagine and expect that if

00:28:20 ◼   ► you are a lifelong Mac developer and

00:28:22 ◼   ► Jewish and you'd start developing a new

00:28:24 ◼   ► Mac app with these tools it should be

00:28:27 ◼   ► better it should be more informed have

00:28:29 ◼   ► more you know have standout in a way

00:28:31 ◼   ► that would you know give it an advantage

00:28:33 ◼   ► but the reality is yeah it's like if

00:28:35 ◼   ► it's like you could imagine the over the

00:28:37 ◼   ► word it's like well people are just

00:28:38 ◼   ► gonna expect to get the mac app for free

00:28:40 ◼   ► when they get them to get the iPhone app

00:28:42 ◼   ► and it's like yeah probably

00:28:44 ◼   ► they already expect that they're ready

00:28:45 ◼   ► they already do and this is just in one

00:28:47 ◼   ► other the next form of that and this is

00:28:49 ◼   ► this is the next place this is going to

00:28:51 ◼   ► happen and that's not great that's

00:28:53 ◼   ► uncomfortable but I think it's also in

00:28:55 ◼   ► some ways it's necessary for the

00:28:57 ◼   ► platform to move forward and so it's

00:28:59 ◼   ► really sad and tricky and complicated

00:29:01 ◼   ► and I have great sympathy for people

00:29:03 ◼   ► they find themselves in the situation

00:29:04 ◼   ► but that's you know that that's where

00:29:07 ◼   ► that that's where this tide is rising

00:29:08 ◼   ► too and we're just going to have to you

00:29:10 ◼   ► know get in our boats and hope for the

00:29:11 ◼   ► best

00:29:12 ◼   ► thanks for listening everybody I'm gonna

00:29:14 ◼   ► talk to you next week bye